iPhone Bill a Whopping 52 Pages Long

PoliTech writes "iPhone bills are surprisingly large - 'Xbox Large', according to Ars technica: 'AT&T's iPhone bills are quite impressive in their own right. We're starting to get bills for the iPhone here at Ars, and while many of us have had smartphones for some time, we've never seen a bill like this. One of our bills is a whopping 52 pages long, and my own bill is 34 pages long. They're printed on both sides, too. What gives? The AT&T bill itemizes your data usage whenever you surf the Internet via EDGE, even if you're signed up for the unlimited data plan. AT&T also goes into an incredible amount of detail to tell you; well, almost nothing. For instance, I know that on July 27 at 3:21 p.m. I had some data use that, under the To/From heading, AT&T has helpfully listed as Data Transfer. The Type of file? Data. My total charge? $0.00. This mind-numbing detail goes on for 52 double-sided pages (for 104 printed pages!) with absolutely no variance except the size of the files.' You would think that a data company would have a more efficient billing process."

Comments

Cingular Billing Systems Are a Mess

[smack.addict]

They were never able to get my bill correct for the 6 months I was with them after the initial AT&T merger. I left, went with TMobile for a year, and I am now back as an iPhone customer. I probably should review my bill.

Re:Cingular Billing Systems Are a Mess

[iced_773]

We got a bill from AT&T for long-distance service on our landline that we haven't used in years, since we get long-distance minutes included in our cellphone plans. So after we call up AT&T to ask what's up and cancel the service, they send us a check for $0.03. How efficient.

Re:Cingular Billing Systems Are a Mess

[Anonymous Coward]

This is really 'Offtopic', not so much 'Troll'. I wish the average ontopic post was this informative.

Re:Cingular Billing Systems Are a Mess

[Registered Coward v2]

They were never able to get my bill correct for the 6 months I was with them after the initial AT&T merger. I left, went with TMobile for a year, and I am now back as an iPhone customer. I probably should review my bill.

After I left them I kept getting bills for $0.0 for several years. I called a few times but the folks at the other end said they couldn't stop them.

Re:Cingular Billing Systems Are a Mess

[samkass]

This happened to a friend of mine. He sent them a check for $0.00 and it seemed to make the problem go away.

I got a bill once for $0.22 in college, so I taped a quarter I found on the floor to the bill and sent it in. Since that was the last bill of the year, they sent me mail at home over the summer that I'd over-paid my last phone bill and would receive a check for the difference in a few days. Sure enough, a few days later came a check for $0.03.

That's not nearly as bad as my credit card company with whom I canceled an account, though. They had a final balance which was an annual fee (the existence of which was why I'd canceled.) So I sent in a check for the balance and canceled the account. Well, some nice lady had apparently removed the annual fee charge, so when the check arrived there, I had a positive balance and they couldn't close the account until it was corrected. So at the beginning of the next billing cycle, their computer automatically cut me a check for the difference, then noted that I hadn't paid the annual fee and added that to my account again... so I was back to my original state with the balance on my card but a check for that amount in my hand. It took me months to get that darn card canceled, and in the meantime when I hadn't paid attention to the fact that it was still open they called me delinquent and the APR went up on all my cards. Sigh.

Re:Cingular Billing Systems Are a Mess

[mrchaotica]

in the meantime when I hadn't paid attention to the fact that it was still open they called me delinquent and the APR went up on all my cards. Sigh.

That sounds almost fraudulent. Wasn't there some kind of recourse you could have taken?

Re:Cingular Billing Systems Are a Mess

[Psyjack]

Better yet, send them a check for $0.00. That'll really screw up their accounting software.

Re:Cingular Billing Systems Are a Mess

[Anonymous Coward]

You spelled pederastic wrong.

Re:Cingular Billing Systems Are a Mess

[phorm]

I paid out one of my cards just before I cancelled it, but apparently overpaid by a few cents. I now get a regular "bill" from the CC company stating that I have a $0.03 credit on my card, which I can't get them to ignore, and can't pull off because I don't have that card anymore.

Re:Cingular Billing Systems Are a Mess

[calyphus]

in the meantime when I hadn't paid attention to the fact that it was still open they called me delinquent and the APR went up on all my cards. Sigh.

That sounds almost fraudulent.

It's normal. Read your credit card contract closely. They include anything adverse appearing on your credit report as justification for increasing their profit (i.e., your interest rate).

Re:Cingular Billing Systems Are a Mess

[mrchaotica]

No, no, no... I mean that it sounds almost fraudulent that the original company marked an account "delinquent" in the first place when he didn't owe any money on it! In a just and sane world, the original company should have been forced to fix his screwed-up credit (including not only removing the error from his credit reports, but also convincing the other companies to lower his interest rates agan).

Re:Cingular Billing Systems Are a Mess

[mapleneckblues]

Well, Nearly every telecommunications service provider in North America uses billing solutions provided by the same company. Its not the service provider itself thats doing the billing. So its not really the service provider thats to blame entirely in my opinion. Its the company that does this billing. Having worked for this company in the past, I can vouch for the mess. However, the problem is that most of the times all the communications service providers have such complex business requirements and millions of interdependencies between rate plans and features which affect billing that the billing system becomes too complex and ugly and starts collapsing on itself (and many times its something that cant be avoided). The more features a cell co provides, the worse the problem will be... replacing millions of lines worth of code and moving to an entirely new system simply doesnt scale for the service provider. You have to keep adding to the complex and ugly old code an keep your fingers crossed.

Someone got $3000 bill for using iPhone in Europe

[soccer_Dude88888]

http://www.boingboing.net/2007/07/31/att_iphone_in tl_roam.html

XO communcations

[seanadams.com]

Every month for the last six years, I have received a bill from XO communications for -$846.52, for a line that I canceled which had a billing error on the closing statement. I thought about calling them to try to get it fixed, but I figured that would probably take several hours of navigating phone trees and getting transferred from one retarded support rep to the next. Easier to just toss them.

I also got a refund check one time from PacBell for $0.01.

Re:XO communcations

[gEvil (beta)]

Holy shit! If you're receiving bills every month for -$846.52 I think you need to sick a collections agency on their ass!

Re:XO communcations

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you mean "recycle" ;)

Re:XO communcations

[antdude]

-$846.52? You gain money from XO Communications? Dude! [grin]

Re:XO communcations

[Dachannien]

A few years ago, I wanted to switch my service from Cingular to AT&T (this was about a year before the merger). It was just after LNP had arrived, and AT&T's online system was a bit screwy, so when they sent me my phone, it didn't work right. After a brief period of trying to sort things out with AT&T, I ended up deciding to cancel within the one-month grace period. As it turns out, due to their efforts to "fix" things, they created an extra account for me with an additional phone number, but didn't put any service plans on it.

For about a year afterwards, I received a bill every month, with no service plans listed, for $0.00. It also indicated that my payment was due immediately.

Re:XO communcations

[Solandri]

A couple years ago I closed a business checking account for a corporation I was treasurer for at the time. I asked for the funds in a cashier's check. The teller screwed up and forgot to deduct the fee for the cashier's check from the balance, even though I had told him to do exactly that. The computers weren't as forgetful, and automatically assessed the fee. As a result, the bank showed the account as closed, but with a -$3 balance. The computers interpreted that as overdrawn and automatically assessed a additional $30 insufficient funds fee. So for months they were bugging me with letters demanding $33 to correct their error.

Re:XO communcations

[Anonymous Coward]

I had a personal and business account with Bank of the West in California. I closed the business account and was issued a cashier check for the balance. A year later, I went in to close my personal account. They asked me if I wanted to close my business account too. I was puzzled. I told them I had that closed a long time ago. They said the balance was $0 and had been for almost a year. The account manager had no idea how the account could have stayed open, considering there had been no monthly fees assessed.

Re:XO communcations

[Belacgod]

HSBC did that to me. They also, when they corrected it, failed to inform the collection agency they'd sent it to that they'd done so.

Re:XO communcations

[Opportunist]

I once got a bill from my (former)phone company for 0.00 bucks. I tossed it, thinking that paying 0 bucks is quite impossible.

I got a reminder 2 weeks later, and a barely hidden threat that I should pay IMMEDIATELY (those 0 bucks) or have my service canceled. The service that I canceled (and thus got a bill for 0 bucks...).

Can anyone take a wild guess why I might have considered the switch to another telco in the first place?

Re:XO communcations

[Fulcrum of Evil]

I don't know why, but Cingular went for a year or so doing that to me (the due immediately part). I don't really know what they were thinking, but I basically ignored it and paid after a week or so.

Re:XO communcations

[jc42]

I once got a bill from my (former)phone company for 0.00 bucks.

Back in the 70s, this was an ongoing joke, often accompanied by details of the bill and the company that did it. A number of the stories had the victim finally giving in and sending a bill for $0.00, which of course the company's accounts people sent through channels (probably with big grins when they realized what the idiot computers had done). Very often, this crashed a number of the computers in the accounting chain.

Typically, when someone investigated, it turned out that the computers were doing all calculations to a few extra decimal places, and the result was a balance less that $0.005 but greater than $0.00, and it was rounded down. The software thus saw a nonzero balance, but displayed it as zero. Why a payment of $0.00 would kill the software was never quite explained, probably out of embarrassment.

It's fun to know that such problems are still with us. But then, the accountants still use a lot of COBOL (and even worse, RPG ;-), so it's not much of a surprise.

I kept waiting for someone to just ignore such bills, to see them eventually go through a collection agency and end up on their credit record. It would be a lot of fun to read about the lawsuit over this. But if this has happened, I haven't ever read about it.

Re:XO communcations

[straponego]

A year after I cancelled my long distance services with a company called CSC, they started sending me a bill for $.06. They kept that up for a year before I called them up. Got their voice mail and told them to call me back so we could work out a payment plan.

Re:XO communcations

[epee1221]

To Whom It May Concern:

I have received your invoice for communications services provided in the past month. Please find enclosed $0.00.

Re:XO communcations

[Opportunist]

Good idea, they just don't accept cash payments and cheques don't exist anymore here. The only way to pay is to actually transfer the money from your account. Which is impossible, due to banks not executing orders for 0.00.

The fun part is that I simply and plainly could not pay that, even if I wanted.

Re:XO communcations

[jotok]

Collections agencies sometimes are a part of the creditor (e.g. the entity that collects for Verizon is just another department of Verizon) but generally are firms that "buy" debt, for say 5% of the owed amount, and then try to get you to pay them. I'm not sure it's 100% legal; they are not collecting "on behalf of" your original creditor, they have only convinced the original creditor to write off the debt. So since you have no contract with the collections agency I'm not sure they can do anything but waste their breath.

OTOH I do know companies can transfer contracts (which happens if your creditor is bought); so there is probably some legal mumbo-jumbo that says they can sell your debt.

Re:XO communcations

[lightversusdark]

Someone's gotta pay for those kids laptops.
Looks like it's supposed to be you.

Re:XO communcations

[mattbrundage]

I also got a refund check one time from PacBell for $0.01.

Try and beat this: Once, I got a letter from Verizon notifying me that I had been overbilled on a certain tax for the previous year, and that I would soon be receiving a check in the mail for $0.04. Sure enough, a month or so later, they mailed me the check, which I promptly cashed. Then, a month or so after that, they mailed me another letter notifying me that they had sent the check. All told, three separate mailings.

Re:XO communcations

[RESPAWN]

Due to some weird accounting on Sprint's part when I changed to Verizon last year, I received two bills. The second bill was some small amount less than the first -- a couple of bucks, I think. Unfortunately, I immediately paid the first bill and didn't realize what happened until the next month I started receiving a bill from Sprint for something like -$2.33 on an account which no longer had a phone number or plan attached to it. The small amount of the money meant that it really wasn't worth my time to sit on the phone, just like you. I laughed when it kept up after several months and I guessed that they had probably spent more than the amount of the credit to continue sending me a bill for that credit.

Eventually, it looks like one of their employees caught up with it and zeroed out my account because I finally stopped receiving the bill.

Re:XO communcations

[Anonymous Coward]

I got a refund check for $0.01 too, but that's because they sent me a bill for $0.04 -- I called them up and said wtf we're both losing money on postage here. So I mailed them a nickel. By not caching the check (which costs more than a penny to drive to the bank...) account remained closed but active for 6 months... hah.

Re:XO communcations

[epee1221]

Good idea, they just don't accept cash payments and cheques don't exist anymore here.

o_0 Where are you?
*can't imagine paying bills with no checks*

Re:XO communcations

[Upphew]

I remember time when my dad had checks... that was sometime in the 80s. I have been paying my own bills over 10 years and have done it by visiting bank, ATM or online. And nearly all monthly bills go through direct debit and/or direct payment.. and next thing will be e-invoices so no paper bills for me, thank you.

*can't imagine paying bills _with_ checks* ;)

Re:XO communcations

[WinterSolstice]

I used to get one from my CC that said cr 3.00 DUE IMMEDIETLY

I actually called a few times to ask where it was, and if I got interest on it :)

Paperless billing

[PoitNarf]

Now I am extremely happy that I went with their paperless billing option when I signed up for my iPhone.

Re:Paperless billing

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, is it possible to switch to paperless billing? How?

Re:Paperless billing

[sholden]

But who'll be laughing when they have years worth of paper for the fireplace to see out the nuclear winter!

Re:Paperless billing

[Anonymous Coward]

Easy: just log into your provider from your iPhone, COPY the personal code it'll give you and PASTE it over the page requesting authentication. BTW: you will need to leave a VOICE RECORDING of agreement, just for legal purporses.

Re:Paperless billing

[jb.hl.com]

Somehow, in the event of global thermonuclear war, I don't think anybody'll be wishing there was more fire.

Re:Paperless billing

[superpulpsicle]

Switch to the Chinese miniOne when it comes out. I am not a fan of the communists, but I'd rather retire early and have a miniOne, than go bankrupt with iPhone and AT&T.

Re:Paperless billing

[WhatAmIDoingHere]

You and I define "easy" differently.

Re:Paperless billing

[Anonymous Coward]

You've obviously never lived through a global thermonuclear war before.

Re:Paperless billing

[Firethorn]

Common mistake. The fuel is for the thermonuclear winter that's scheduled after the war.

Wait a minute...

HEY GUYS!!!! I've found the cure for global warming!

Re:Paperless billing

[Tauvix]

Or just log into your account at http://wireless.att.com/ and switch to paperless billing. That's how I did it years ago when it was Cingular. I would expect the option is still there.

Re:Paperless billing

[Guppy06]

Just don't try to download the bill onto your phone.

Re:Paperless billing

[Pollardito]

you can't copy and paste on an iphone, it was a pretty subtle joke

Re:Paperless billing

[Anonymous Coward]

Listen here whippersnapper.

Don't try to tell me about global thermonuclear holocaust. When I was a kid, EVERY NUCLEAR WINTER I had to walk FIVE MILES to school, UPHILL, through two feet of radioactive fallout. Then I had to walk FIVE MILES back home, UPHILL again, with even more fallout.

I did that every day. With no shoes.

Re:Paperless billing

[Anonymous Coward]

Parent: +1 Funny

Re:Paperless billing

[azav]

AND YOU LIKED IT!

Heh :]

Re:Paperless billing

[flyingfsck]

So they can charge you $500 to view the bill online?

Re:Paperless billing

[Anonymous Coward]

You've obviously never lived through a global thermonuclear war before.

Actually, I have. It's easy, everytime the nuclear winter starts getting a bit chilly, light off another thermonuclear bomb. Problem solved.

Re:Paperless billing

[Pichu0102]

You say there's a time where something can't be solved with more fire? You traitor! Burn the witch!

Re:Paperless billing

[dmatos]

Just wait until you get the bill for downloading you electronic bill to your iPhone. I sure hope you went with the unlimited data plan!

Re:Paperless billing

[devilspgd]

You can't copy and paste on an iPhone?

Which part is the joke, that someone implied you can, or that you can't?

AT&T Billing

[fatman22]

Somewhere down inside the quagmire that is AT&T's billing system, you'll probably still find an active tariff for leasing crank-style (think "Lassie") phones to customers. It has never been updated to intelligently handle more recent uses of their communications systems, and heaven forbid you should ever ask one of their people to explain a charge or how to lower the cost of your "service". That's one of several reasons I refuse to do business with them anymore.

Re:AT&T Billing

[Icarus1919]

This is not AT&T wireless, this is Cingular. They bought the AT&T name.

Re:AT&T Billing

[Anonymous Coward]

This is not AT&T wireless. They bought the AT&T name.

Not exactly.

Re:AT&T Billing

[the unbeliever]

You're apparently unfamiliar with Cingular's genesis. Cingular started as a merger between AT&T wireless and BellSouth Mobility (and other companies too)

I believe that bellsouth took hold of the company for a while, and thus, Cingular is no better than AT&T

Re:AT&T Billing

[mog007]

Cingular bought AT&T's failing mobile division a few years ago. Then, just before the iPhone was released, AT&T bought Cingular and turned it into their new mobile division.

Re:AT&T Billing

[RobertM1968]

Actually, it goes even further than this... if you look at the Wiki page, you will notice a scary trend that the general populace (that was so concerned in days gone about breaking up "Ma Bell") has missed.

Namely, Verizon/ATT/___Bell/Ameritech/SBC/ConTel/ManyMore are all pretty much two (one) big conglomerates once again. Many are subsidiaries of the other or have controlling interests in each other.

For instance, with this one as an example (ATT Mobility), they WERE wholly owned by SBC/ATT and BellSouth... until ATT merged/bought back BellSouth (and Ameritech, and Pacific Telesis, and Southern New England Telecommunications. Verizon and the other Bell "subsidiaries" own pretty much most of the rest...

All that really leaves is the re-merger of ATT & Verizon and the large majority of phone services (land and cellular) will once again be all Ma Bell.

Re:AT&T Billing

[Fishstick]

not quite -- cingular was bellsouth and SBC

cingular did indeed buy at&t wireless (which had been spun off as a separate company from AT&T) -- I worked at the company that did the billing for AWS and cingular took it in-house

cingular became at&t through the SBC/AT&T merger and name change

Stephen Colbert has a pretty funny bit about the whole full circle path that AT&T has taken

Re:AT&T Billing

[timster]

No, that's backwards -- SBC (owners of Cingular) bought the corpse that was once AT&T.

People go on and on about AT&T around here as if the current company is the same one that existed five years ago. Truth is that by 2005 there was almost nothing left of the old AT&T.

Re:AT&T Billing

[DavidTC]

No no no. SBC bought the corpse that was AT&T, and renamed itself AT&T, but Cingular was a joint venture between that and Bellsouth. Then the new AT&T bought Bellsouth.

To recap:

AT&T & AT&T Wireless exist, with the former owning the latter

AT&T Wireless fails, is bought by Cingular from AT&T. Cingular is a joint venture of Bellsouth and SBC.

AT&T is bought by SBC, which then names itself AT&T.

SBC (Calling itself AT&T) buys Bellsouth. Now Cingular is a joint venture of SBC (Calling itself AT&T) and Bellsouth (owned entirely by SBC, which is, again, calling itself AT&T) or, in other words, wholely owned by SBC, aka, AT&T.

They rename Cingular AT&T.

Re:AT&T Billing

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Stephen Colbert has a decent bit on this: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-200478575 9717366066.

AT&T: The T-1000 of corporations...

Re:AT&T Billing

[MBraynard]

Where did you get your signature?

Re:AT&T Billing

[calvy]

You were so close to being 100% correct there. It's not Cingular AT&T now, it's just AT&T. You'll see Cingular disappear completely when more people finally start to forget what Cingular was.

Re:AT&T Billing

[Pliep]

You missed out the last step, which would be

Profit.

Re:AT&T Billing

[JazzLad]

Maybe I'm having a Monday, but every line read ??? to me ....

Re:AT&T Billing

[DavidTC]

That's what I said. They rename 'Cingular' 'AT&T'.

Re:AT&T Billing

[DavidTC]

My sig, for future reference when I change it, or for those who don't see them:
You can't drown a government in a bathtub without drowning a few people in a river. Or a whole city in a lake.

The very first thing I said in RL, when I heard about the bridge collapse was, despite not knowing anything about politics over there, was 'What do you want to bet it's because Republican over there have underfunded transportation to cut taxes?'. And damned if I wasn't right.

As for that specific line, I said it, at least the first sentence, on here somewhere. (Grover Norquist, of course, was the original guy that said he wanted to make the government so small he could drown it in a bathtub.) When I made it my sig, I added the second one. I thought it was clever at the time, but right now, when I googled to make sure I spelt 'Norquist' correctly, I see a lot of other people have made the same analogy. I guess it's a pretty obvious one.

Feel free to use it, I hereby public domain it.

Re:AT&T Billing

[DavidTC]

He neglects to mention Bellsouth also used to be AT&T.

It's pretty funny, but, really, could be funnier.

Re:AT&T Billing

[orgelspieler]

We might even call it AT&T-1000.

Re:AT&T Billing

[MBraynard]

Actully, I know Grover said a statement that you responded to. But you are wrong about the bridge collapsing because Republicans underfunded it. Though I think with your logic you can ALWAYS blame tax cuts for anything that's wrong in the world. Why did you hit the pothole? Because Rs cut taxes and that money could have gone to fix it. Why did your house get robbed? Because Rs cut taxes and that money could have paid for more police. Etc, etc.

There are so many problems with this way of thinking. You neglect that despite tax cuts, goverment revenue and government spending on transportation and everything else has EXPLODED.

Alternatively, how to do you explain the absolute failure of school systems with massive spending in cities that are run by Democrats - and they sucked even when Dems controlled all three parts of the Federal government. Witness DC - 12k a month per student and 2/3ds of public school teachers with children send their kids to private schools.

That just blows everything you have to say to hell. The best response to your line of thinking is a recent column by Thomas Sowell - bridges are too important to be left to government.

Re:AT&T Billing

[Anonymous Coward]

In the prologue to this, didn't SBC (or perhaps Southwestern Bell) buy PacBell (and then name itself SBC)?

Re:AT&T Billing

[DavidTC]

You really should do some research into this particular issue before you speak up.

In this case, the Republican governor slashed transportation spending since taking office in 2004 by vetoing budgets, see here. And feel free to google it.

Alternatively, how to do you explain the absolute failure of school systems with massive spending in cities that are run by Democrats - and they sucked even when Dems controlled all three parts of the Federal government. Witness DC - 12k a month per student and 2/3ds of public school teachers with children send their kids to private schools.

Well, I certainly don't assert the failure of the schools is due to too much revenue, as you apparently do. That's completely nonsensical. Also, you've apparently failed to notice schools are, in fact, run by the states, not the Federal or city governments, so who is in charge of the city or the Federal government at the time is not very incredibly relevant.

Incidentally, the quality of schools is almost entirely unrelated to which political party is in office in the state, and almost entirely related to percentage of the poor. So suggesting that failing schools have more than enough money would seem to be somewhat illogical on that basis.

Anyway, the failure of schools is way too complicated to get into here, and has nothing to do with the recent disintegration of infrastructure around the country, which is almost entirely due to lack of spending on maintenance. We know how to make things work correctly, and we know how to spend money to make that happen. We do not know how to make students learn. I 'agree' with you that throwing money at schools is not 'the' solution, but that is because there are several other root problems. In the case of infrastructure, however, the entire problem is that we refuse to spend the money on it.

Bridges aren't too important to be left to government. They're too important to be left to a political party that thinks government is unneeded and unwanted, and that the less spent on it the better.

Re:AT&T Billing

[MBraynard]

Incidentally, the quality of schools is almost entirely unrelated to which political party is in office in the state, and almost entirely related to percentage of the poor. So suggesting that failing schools have more than enough money would seem to be somewhat illogical on that basis.

This is false, demonstrably so. The city of Minneapolis' own school choice program illustrates this. As do certan charter schools in high-poverty areas that have massive success. Success and failure of schools for poor people is very dependent on the control that the teacher-union backed politicians. And the Feds ARE involved in local school issues and provide funding for it - more and more every years.

The chart in the NYTimes areticle you cite is bogus because it doesn't cite real dollars, just a percentage - and it does appear that feds DO fund a large amount of transportation costs.

And maybe you should read your own article that you apparently googled but did not read. It seems the vetos has nothing to do with bridge maintenance. FTA: That has often meant construction of new, politically popular roads and transit projects rather than the mundane work of maintaining the worn-out ones.

Further, the veto of the regressive taxes by Paulenty didn't reduce the spending on transportation; at best they would have allowed the Democrats in the state legislature to shift more money away from transportation to pet projects.

Sowell echoes this in his own article. Maybe you should read it - and then read the article you cited but did not read.

Got any more lies left? Given your politics, I think you have an endless supply.

Re:AT&T Billing

[Aexia]

Almost.

AT&T Wireless was spun off by AT&T into its own seperate company. This is what Cingular bought.

Re:AT&T Billing

[DavidTC]

This is false, demonstrably so. The city of Minneapolis' own school choice program illustrates this. As do certan charter schools in high-poverty areas that have massive success. Success and failure of schools for poor people is very dependent on the control that the teacher-union backed politicians. And the Feds ARE involved in local school issues and provide funding for it - more and more every years.

Ah, yes. No doubt funded by the secret Federal Democratic government that's been operating next to the Republican one for years and years. Wait, no, so it's the Federal Republican who've been funding schools more and more? I'm getting really confused as to what the fuck you're even pretending your point to be.

But I like the fact you constantly bring up schools to deflect away infrastructure. Schools are complicated. We do not know how to fix them.

There are plenty of complicated things in the government that are difficult to figure out the correct thing to do, and sometimes trying to help actually makes things worse. I have, at absolutely no point, suggested schools were not these things, although suggesting that their entire problem is too much money is just bone stupid. If you have some magical school suggestion, feel free to mention it where people are actually discussing, you know, schools, and not where they are discussing, you know, bridges.

Bridges, though? They're easy. All we have to do is spend the money on having people inspect and fix them! That's it. Theres no argument, there's no debate. We can either repair infrastruture, or not. If we don't, it will fail...usually in slow slide to unuseablity, but sometimes in a very rapid collapse.

I quite understand why you're deflecting the argument from 'Republicans don't spend enough on required bridge maintenance' to 'Democrats spend too much on schools', but, honestly, you're the only person you've fooled there. Democrats may, indeed, spend too much on certain schools. I have my own suspicious as to what is wrong, but as they are completely irrelevant to bridges, I will not say them.

The chart in the NYTimes areticle you cite is bogus because it doesn't cite real dollars, just a percentage - and it does appear that feds DO fund a large amount of transportation costs.

Why the hell you think I was trying to make the claim the Federal government didn't fund anything to do with transportation costs is beyond me. I didn't say anything in that regard.

And maybe you should read your own article that you apparently googled but did not read. It seems the vetos has nothing to do with bridge maintenance. FTA: That has often meant construction of new, politically popular roads and transit projects rather than the mundane work of maintaining the worn-out ones.

It's you who's not reading the article. They are talking about Federal funds, not the transportation bill that was slashed.

In fact, almost all the article is talking about Federal funding, which I don't give a shit about because, and I repeat, the governor slashed the transportation budget. The entire reason I pointed to that article was the first damn line: In the past two years, Gov. Tim Pawlenty of Minnesota twice vetoed legislation to raise the state's gas tax to pay for transportation needs.

To repeat my argument for the brain-damaged: In Minnesota, the governor twice vetoed increasing spending on transportation to where the legislature wanted it, because he had a 'No new tax pledge'. This got so bad that voters passed a constitutional amendment directing all fees and taxes from the sale of new cars to transportation, and they still had shortfalls. Google 'Minnesota gas tax Pawlenty amendment' if you want the full hilarious story about one man's attempt to keep from raising any taxes at all, as the transportation system fell to pieces around him.

Of course,

Re:AT&T Billing

[MBraynard]

Schools are complicated. We do not know how to fix them.

No, YOU do not know how to fix them. I do.

But going back to transportation, your entire argument is totally bogus and I'm not going to go piece by piece and refute all of your bolded comments. Apologize, but you are filabustering and it's not appropriate to more than double the size of my response with yours. I have a life and do not live to win arguments on the tubes with retards.

This got so bad that voters passed a constitutional amendment directing all fees and taxes from the sale of new cars to transportation, and they still had shortfalls.

State revenues in MN have exploded under the current administration. The problem is, as Sowell points out, that the legislature has misdirected funding. It's a typical tactic to start taking hostages anytime revenue needs to be raised: it's usually emergency rooms and cops, and in this case it was funding for NEW road projects, not maintenance.

There is NOTHING to suggest that there were bridge maintenance issues related to lack of funding. Nothing. Incompetence, maybe. Besides - the bill you referenced was just vetoed.

So, no, the bridge didn't collapse because Pawlenty didn't want to raise taxes on poor people. It collapes because Karl Rove put on a a Navy SEAL outfit, swam under the bridge and planted explosives, which he detonated with his cell phone.

Re:AT&T Billing

[DavidTC]

State revenues in MN have exploded under the current administration. The problem is, as Sowell points out, that the legislature has misdirected funding. It's a typical tactic to start taking hostages anytime revenue needs to be raised: it's usually emergency rooms and cops, and in this case it was funding for NEW road projects, not maintenance.

MN has run a budget surplus for quite a few years, and, as I pointed out, the people wanted increased taxes so much they passed a constitutional amendment.

Don't run around blaming the Democrats because the governor signed 'wasteful' (Which, incidentally, are only wasteful in your mind, and appear to be exactly what the residents of MN wanted.) spending bills, but didn't sign the needed transportation bills until they were slashed in half.

Especially don't blame him when his issue was, as I said, not how much they spent, but how the collected it, by new taxes, when he wanted to pay for it by borrowing and using the surplus so that he could not have 'new taxes'.

I know, in the Republican universe, that taxes are always too high, but the people of MN completely disagree, they disagree so much they passed a constitutional amendment requiring the collection of taxes, something I'm not entirely sure I've ever seen before, because their legislature couldn't get any tax increase past their governor. Not 'allowing' the collection of taxes, it actually required the collection of taxes and spending of those taxes so that the legislature wouldn't have to pass a law, and hence it couldn't be vetoed.

I do like the anti-democratic idea that somehow people in a society don't have the right to collect taxes on themselves, though, because all taxes are evil and must be forced lower, no matter what the people in that society actually want. Thank you, Pawlenty, for defending that ideology instead of actually doing things that are the best for society, like good politicians, or even what they want you to do, like mediocre politicians.

There is NOTHING to suggest that there were bridge maintenance issues related to lack of funding. Nothing. Incompetence, maybe. Besides - the bill you referenced was just vetoed.

I know it was vetoed, that's what I said. The stupid 'No new taxes' governor vetoed it! Do you even read what I write?

Minnesota elected a loony. They thought they had elected one with Ventura, but no, he actually was mostly okay. But then they elected Pawlenty, who ran on 'no new taxes' and got into power. And then, to everyone's horror, people realized he actually meant it. As Minnesota actually needed more revenue at the time, because Ventura didn't have very good spending policies, they then spent the next three years fighting the insanity so they actually had a functioning state.

They failed.

Part of the softening-up process

[Animats]

They're preparing you for the day when they start data usage charges. "Unlimited usage" might be just an introductory rate plan. The telcos want to charge you for every download, and clearly they have the billing system in place to do it. You think they went to all the trouble to implement that when it doesn't generate revenue?

Re:Part of the softening-up process

[LinuxInDallas]

Doubt it. AT&T already has a pay as you go option, assuming you don't have a PDA phone or iPhone. They may bump the price of the unlimited option but I highly doubt the unlimited plans will ever go way. After all, $20 for the iPhone data plan or $30 for a PDA plan is still highway robbery for such a slow link (assuming edge.)

Re:Part of the softening-up process

[KZigurs]

I think it might be the way around - they had it all in the place already, for full scale proper rip-off and somehow it turned out that their bill generating software was easier to update just by including a class of traffic charged at 0.00 per anything than instead omit it being 'registered' or 'reported'...

One more thing where USA is waaay behind the rest of the world - most operators in europe has whitelists of data destinations that will be served, recorded but not exposed/charged to the user long time ago. What happens in the third world countries where the [billing] systems are relatively new (when compared to the 'established' world) is an even more interesting thing... (cutting edge stuff like networks supporting both EDGE and UMTS, just for sake of doing so...)

Re:Part of the softening-up process

[Anonymous Coward]

They're preparing you for the day when they start data usage charges.

You may have a point. If that's the case, they are probably considering different rates based on the type of data download (e.g. mp3, video, other). It would be interesting to know if anyone got a data type other than "Data" on their bill.

Re:Part of the softening-up process

[Yvanhoe]

Never attribute to malice what can be explained by incompetence...

Re:Part of the softening-up process

[Belacgod]

Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice.

Re:Part of the softening-up process

[Iron Condor]

Never attribute to malice what can be explained by incompetence...

And sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice.

It's called detailed billing

[Wireless Joe]

and you can have it removed by a single request to customer service. What a non-issue. Of course, if detailed billing wasn't offered by default, I'm sure there would be people whining that they're not being told where their charges are coming from.

Re:It's called detailed billing

[LighterShadeOfBlack]

It's called detailed billing and you can have it removed by a single request to customer service. What a non-issue. Of course, if detailed billing wasn't offered by default, I'm sure there would be people whining that they're not being told where their charges are coming from Yeah... except it doesn't give you any useful details. As for people complaining if it weren't the default, what the fuck are you talking about? Other companies manage to provide a common-sense billing system without being drowned in a sea of complaints, so what possible reason do you have for thinking it would happen now?

Re:It's called detailed billing

[Loconut1389]

some people like to see what calls were made and to where - the entire point of detailed billing. nobody needs to see non descriptive data charges to bury all the phone calls. Either say what site youvisited, or ditch the data logging- but not the whole detialed billing feature.

Re:It's called detailed billing

[the unbeliever]

I have detailed billing from Verizon wireless, and it doesn't give me my data usage ad nauseam, it simply lists the details I care about, like..you know...phone calls?

Re:It's called detailed billing

[pjt33]

Any reasonable person would interpret "detailed billing" to mean details about what you're being billed. If an item costs $0.00, it isn't being billed. There should be one line saying "Unlimited data transfer - $xx.yy".

Re:It's called detailed billing

[RobertM1968]

Actually, lets say that your business provides your phone. Though the data provided isnt exactly very detailed in the TYPE of data you are sending/receiving, it indicates data usage. Inotherwords, your employer has a very good idea of how much time you waste surfing the web/msging/etc during company time.

Re:It's called detailed billing

[LighterShadeOfBlack]

Surely that could just as easily be attained by a simple summary of data sent/received each month. If a company doesn't trust an employee beyond that it seems to me they probably shouldn't be giving him a business phone at all.

I certainly doubt that a company would want that information in paper form - for a reasonably sized firm you'd probably need a whole team of people dedicated to just reading and analysing the bills if it was paper rather than a digital, computer-digestable format (and of course what would a computer do with such information? - summarise it into a couple of lines or relevant data!).

Even in the unlikely event that a company or an individual wanted the absurdly-over-the-top style of billing on paper it seems logical that it should be by request, not the default.

Re:It's called detailed billing

[mizhi]

People are whining with the default detailed billing system, so whether or not to default to that system is a flip of the coin.

A little common sense would indicate that the default billing option should be an electronic version, with the option of requesting a hard copy of the detailed billing records. You'd still have people whining (there will always be people who complain), and there would be a positive environmental impact from the paper that was spared.

Re:It's called detailed billing

[DavidTC]

Yeah, because people regularly complain when charges of $0.00 don't show up on their bill.

Dumbass, people want itemized charges, not itemized lack of charges. No one gives a fuck how many times some company thinks we did something that they are not charging us for.

I can just imagine people complaining at restaurants that the restaurant didn't include their free chips, or their free trip to the restroom, on the bill.

There might be one or two people in the world who have some reason for wanting to know this (For example, if they think a background software application on their iPhone is calling home.), but there would be absolutely no complains if they didn't show it...no ISP gives people a bill with their free data transactions itemized, and even ones that do charge for bandwidth don't normally itemize it.

Re:It's called detailed billing

[Anonymous Coward]

Nay.

If I have unlimited local calling on my cellphone, I still get a bill that breaks down all the airtime I used, who called me, who I called and call durations.

And frankly, that's how it should be.

Re:It's called detailed billing

[jgoemat]

It's called detailed billing and you can have it removed by a single request to customer service. What a non-issue. Of course, if detailed billing wasn't offered by default, I'm sure there would be people whining that they're not being told where their charges are coming from.

Where their 'charges' are coming from? First off, they aren't being charged anything for the transfers, it's part of their unlimited data package. Second, the only 'detail' was the date and time. That doesn't give a lot of information. Third, would turning off detailed billing mean you no longer received itemizations on actual charges, such as when your niece 'borrowed' your phone for a two hour call to her boyfriend in Spain?

Re:It's called detailed billing

[UbuntuDupe]

A little common sense would indicate that the default billing option should be an electronic version, with the option of requesting a hard copy of the detailed billing records

LOL! You underestimate the technology aversion of the median AT&T customer. I bet a lot of them still call their salary a "paycheck"...

They want you to know that they know

[tzonic]

Maybe this is a subtle way of saying: yes, we keep track of everything. Your world delivered [to the NSA].

Warrantless Wiretapping

[Anonymous Coward]

That is why they send you those privacy policy notices.

This is no surprise

[Pete LaGrange]

My cingular bill has been like this for ages, every single transaction listed without regard for charges. I finally convinced myself that too much information is better than too little.

AT&T are too kind

[eebra82]

There's nothing wrong with being thorough and precise. I think people would complain more if it was the opposite; no details whatsoever. Unfortunately, AT&T decided to do this the paper route instead of just supplying its customers with online, on-demand details. After all, no iPhone owner lacks an internet connection.

Re:AT&T are too kind

[mikesd81]

"AT&T decided to do this the paper route instead of just supplying its customers with online, on-demand details."

Well, first of all they do have paperless billing online. But not everyone has internet connection, or high speed internet, and I tell you from experience, you need broadband to pull one of those bad boys down. Second, I'm not sure I'd want to try to pull all that information via the iPhone given how big the file will be....you're next bill may be a little more pricey.

Re:AT&T are too kind

[the unbeliever]

iPhone gives unlimited data, eh?

Re:AT&T are too kind

[mikesd81]

I didn't realize it got unlimited data. But we'll see how long that lasts. It's only fair to offset the incredible price of the phone.

Re:AT&T are too kind

[the unbeliever]

Actually, the vast majority of cell phones at retail cost $400-500

Most providers just subsidize the phone cost into your contract, if you take the sale price.

"Fair" would be not having to have a contract.

Re:AT&T are too kind

[mikesd81]

Well, the GOphones aren't that expensive. Go Phone prices

Re:AT&T are too kind

[the unbeliever]

They also aren't all that great, and they tend to bite you in the ass if you use it a lot.

Re:AT&T are too kind

[the eric conspiracy]

"AT&T decided to do this the paper route instead of just supplying its customers with online, on-demand details."

LOL. Have you ever dealt with an AT&T online billing system? I doubt if they CAN supply online details.

Telecomm business management practices are the worst. After decades as a monopoly, then more decades divesting and requiring each other their info systems are a shambles. People wonder where that $200 billion went? I can GUARANTEE the phone companies DON'T KNOW!!!

Re:AT&T are too kind

[Anonymous Coward]

There's nothing wrong with being thorough and precise. I think people would complain more if it was the opposite; no details whatsoever. False dichotomy. There is no reason why the only solution to there being an overflow of these $0.00 charges is that they completely remove all details from the bill. Imagine this, there could actually be a middle ground between the two. Oh wow!

Re:AT&T are too kind

[Firethorn]

Actually, the vast majority of cell phones at retail cost $400-500

MSRP might be that high, but given the ease at which they offer rebates and discounts and free phones I doubt they cost that much. I mean, I just saw a new laptop offer for $399. That includes wireless, 17" screen, the works.

I don't believe that cell phones really cost that much 'retail', it's simply that rebates and sales are so prevalent that only a few idiots pay MSRP, it's mostly marketing gimmick, similar to what car salesmen do.

Re:AT&T are too kind

[the unbeliever]

You don't get the "rebate" unless you sign up for the contract.

Buy a phone without a contract, you pay the MSRP.

Re:AT&T are too kind

[ivanski]

>But not everyone has internet connection

I'm going to go out on a limb and claim that there's a reasonable certainty that someone who has an iPhone has an internet connection. Maybe, you know, on the iPhone itself.

Re:AT&T are too kind

[Weezul]

I think Ebay prices for unlocked phones are normally about the same as locked contract phones. You'll obviously pay MSRP if your buying form people who want to sell you a contract. lol But why'd you buy form them?

Re:AT&T are too kind

[Mr Z]

I thought the iPhone came with "the Internet." You know, not the kinda-sorta Internet, or maybe a little Internet, but, you know, the Internet.

Are you saying that with an unlimited data plan and access to the Internet from the phone itself, the customer might not be able to get to their online bill for lack ofa network connection?

--Joe

Re:AT&T are too kind

[v1]

what IS the msrp of the iphone if you buy it sans contract? $900-1400 I am guessing?

Re:AT&T are too kind

[Firethorn]

Everything I've heard has the iphone being unavailable without the contract, so you'd have to depend upon secondary sources.

It's also a 'hot item' right now, and that drives the price up. Apple computers has quite a brand name for some people, and that helps them sell stuff for more as well.

Still - I remember hearing a rumor that the iPhone costs 1/3 of what they're selling it for. So once competition enters the market, it should drive the price down substantially.

When you end up talking about stuff like this I look more towards products that actually have competition. IE you can buy an equivalent phone from AT&T or Verizon or Motorola or any of the other half dozen providers and manufacturers.

Re:AT&T are too kind

[the unbeliever]

You can't really do that for all cell providers though, only T-mobile and AT&T are GSM providers, and thus can be used with unlocked phones. CDMA providers are still stuck usings phones without sim cards.

Re:AT&T are too kind

[The One and Only]

Still - I remember hearing a rumor that the iPhone costs 1/3 of what they're selling it for.

Maybe to manufacture it. It costs a large fixed amount to develop these things in the first place, though.

Re:Someone got $3000 bill for using iPhone in Euro

[gEvil (beta)]

The thing that I find even more disturbing than the $3000 bill is this: "I'm a web developer as part of my career and I couldn't even tell you how many KB the average web page is, no less a text message to my son, an e-mail with a photo to my mother, or a quick check of Google Maps." I can only assume that optimization isn't in this guy's vocabulary.

AT&T == NSA monitoring

[Anonymous Coward]

This level of detail is not only "mind-numbing" in is inconvenience, but should alarm anyone concerned with the privacy of their communications. AT&T has a dismal track record with respect to warrantless governemnt data mining, and it disconcerting that they relay such detailed monitoring for their billing records (even when there is no charge). You can be assured that such records are conveniently feeding the data mining engines at the NSA.

Re:AT&T == NSA monitoring

[Anonymous Coward]

Bullshit.

This level of monitoring is the norm across the boards. Name one web server that doesn't, by default, log every connection, including IP address of the originator? Name one ISP that doesn't log IP address combined with customer record?

Sure -- privacy issues abound. But I'd bet people would bitch and moan long and hard if they were to call up their ISP or phone company and be unable to get customer support because there wasn't an association between account and activity and, thus, no way to actually figure out where the problem lies without having to ask a bunch of inane questions on every call.

Re:AT&T == NSA monitoring

[glitch23]

Yeah I can see them forwarding this very useful detailed billing info on to the NSA.

Security Analyst: Sir, we just received a report from AT&T that a customer just downloaded a data file on July 27 at 3:21 p.m which was downloaded from someone named Data Transfer. It was also transfered to someone named Data Transfer. What's worse is that it was done for free.

Security Analyst Boss: Call DHS. We have a terrorist on our hands. Until they get here though we must attack first due to the specificity given in this report indicating Data Transfer is involved. He is a well known terrorist who is armed/dangerous and has a firearm registered in his name with a history of domestic violence.

Re:AT&T == NSA monitoring

[Torodung]

Exactly. iPhone customers should be concerned (not alarmed, IMHO) that this level of detail exists in the first place, and should demand that such information is not kept beyond a reasonable term to deal with billing issues. It certainly is a privacy concern, especially if there's long-term retention.

In the case of an unlimited plan, I'd like to see the justification for any such data retention. If AT&T doesn't need it to generate a bill, or satisfy a financial audit, then it should be shredded. How you use the iPhone is your business, and only their business insofar as it takes to determine your monthly charge.

It's all about data mining. You used to have to do something wrong to wind with a "permanent record." No longer. We all are going to have a very large "permanent record" if we don't demand data destruction and limitations on what and how long personal information may be retained.

--
Toro

Re:AT&T == NSA monitoring

[MarkMtDew]

Courts have rather consistently held that "envelope information", including billing records, are not protected by 4th Amendment search protections. IP address records are less certain.

http://www.concurringopinions.com/archives/2007/07 /the_fourth_amen.html

Detailing IP address records on their bills gives them a powerful argument that they are billing records, too. AT&T is quite aware of their billing costs. They are a major expense for all of the long distance carriers. They are also aware of their legal expenses, and probably terrified of their potential civil liabilities in the spying scandal. An investment in billing (printing IP address details) may yield much greater legal savings.

Re:AT&T == NSA monitoring

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, because if you don't use AT&T then whoever you use *wont* "let" the NSA monitor you.

rolls eyes

You really don't understand do you...

Re:AT&T == NSA monitoring

[inKubus]

Yeah, I was waiting for someone to comment on this. They have to index every data transaction for the government eavesdroppers. So when they want to know what you were doing at 1035 on 2 Feb 2008 they can. Or whatever. Obviously they do this with the IP routers they run which carry the majority of Internet traffic in the US (and the world). Stop and think of all the things increased information access has done for you. Then multiply it by 300 million and you have the benefits to anyone interesting in increasing their personal power through extortion. Tread lightly brings a whole new meaning--now it's advice for the consumer. DON'T deal with companies that provide detailed records to the government for ANY reason. It's none of their business.

The Truth Comes Out

[AbsoluteXyro]

AT&T hates trees.

Re:The Truth Comes Out

[Anonymous Coward]

Agreed... just think about how many trees the Yellow Pages kills

Re:The Truth Comes Out

[NoodleSlayer]

What--- you never saw the Recycling episode of Bullshit? Wasting paper results in more trees being grown to create more paper! (Like eating more french fries results in farmers growing more potatoes)

Obviously AT&T is actually trying to do their part for the environment by encouraging the planting of more trees for paper production.

Re:The Truth Comes Out

[karnal]

You know what's funny?

I have Broadvoice, and they still drop off the yellow pages to me once a year. I really should opt to recycle them or something, but they end up in my garbage can.

Re:The Truth Comes Out

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem with that BS show is people don't have a sense of humour and take everything they say seriously.

Re:The Truth Comes Out

[mrchaotica]

Hello, broken window fallacy!

Re:The Truth Comes Out

[Anonymous Coward]

No no no, You've got it all wrong. What do you think they do with the old telephone polls when they replace them with new ones? That's right, shred them up and send them to the customers as bills.

I can't wait to see my "paper" bill when they start replacing the rusting metal ones...

Re:The Truth Comes Out

[stefanlasiewski]

Of course. Trees get in the way of the telephone poles. ATT seeks revenge.

Hidden charges and "mistakes"

[Matt Perry]

It'll make it easier to slip in a $1 charge here and a 25 cent charge there. Few people read those bills and making them longer and filled with useless data like this will make it harder to find the signal in the noise.

Re:Hidden charges and "mistakes"

[GIL_Dude]

Good point. Probably the first one will be $1.25 for "paper bill"...

Re:Hidden charges and "mistakes"

[do_kev]

>> It'll make it easier to slip in a $1 charge here and a 25 cent charge there. Few people read those bills and making them longer and filled with useless data like this will make it harder to find the signal in the noise. While I suppose that is in theory true, I sincerely doubt that a company the size of AT&T would risk the repercussions they would face by doing that. It is more likely that as another poster mentioned they plan to bill for these items in the future, or that they simply want to provide a thorough bill.

Re:Hidden charges and "mistakes"

[do_kev]

*since my other post omitted br tags and was thus unreadable..*

>> It'll make it easier to slip in a $1 charge here and a 25 cent charge there. Few people read those bills and making them longer and filled with useless data like this will make it harder to find the signal in the noise.

While I suppose that is in theory true, I sincerely doubt that a company the size of AT&T would risk the repercussions they would face by doing that. It is more likely that as another poster mentioned they plan to bill for these items in the future, or that they simply want to provide a thorough bill.

Re:Hidden charges and "mistakes"

[edittard]

More like 1 cent (or is it 0.01 cent) 125 times. This will take up another five pages, resulting in another PUS (paper use surcharge)...

Re:Hidden charges and "mistakes"

[edittard]

Repercussion shmepercussions. Computer malfunction. Human error. Indians.

Re:Hidden charges and "mistakes"

[Anonymous Coward]

I used to have AT&T as my provider. Just about every month there were small billing "errors" in theor favor that required a call to customer service to clear up. That is one of the main reasons I switched to another provider.

They are counting on people to not do anything about those "extra" charges. A dollar here, a dollar there ... it adds up given the number of customers they have. I'm 100% certain they are doing it intentionally. Like another poster said, they have all sorts of plausible excuses, but after a while, it becomes clear what is really going on.

Cell phone companies are scum. Almost all of them should have been busted by the FTC a long time ago.

Re:Hidden charges and "mistakes"

[triclipse]

So true. While I (for the most part) love Sprint (I have been a customer for eight years) my bill increased substantially several months ago after I added a line and changed plans. With five phones on my plan, my bill was usually around 100 pages. I simply didn't have the time to look through my bill for several months and I didn't want to call customer service unless I had at least done my part to review my bill. It ended up they had been erronously charging me over $150/month for three months.

They were apologetic and immediately credited my account for the error, but it made me wonder if some devious vice-president hadn't implemented this plan to reap some extra profits from those whose time is too valuable to spend trying to figure out if they are being overcharged.

Re:Hidden charges and "mistakes"

[Anonymous Coward]

Why do they have to "sneak" it in anywhere? Most providers have a ready-made "Goverment taxes/fees" section to throw stuff in. Yay, we can transfer our numbers between providers, but oh wait, we're still paying for it a decade later....

Getting our money's worth

[FormOfActionBanana]

I wonder if the spy reports provided to the NSA are equally detailed?

I can see it now:
12:34PM from:Terrorist_xyz to:Person_123 type:voice content:voice

Re:Getting our money's worth

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, most signals intelligence is pattern analysis, not content analysis.

Score zero...

[EmbeddedJanitor]

5... 4... 3... 2... 1...(Score:0).

How fitting.

Re:5... 4... 3... 2... 1...

[gEvil (beta)]

Just counting down to the moment an Apple fanboy comes on here and tells us this isn't ridiculously stupid and wasteful but rather a radical design advancement for billing and its not Apple's fault if us non-designer pedestrians are too low-brow to 'get' it.

Can't defend AT&Ts actions here, but I would say all those things above if they sent your bill electronically to your iPhone and allowed you to flip through all 104 pages of it using coverflow... : p

How Ironic...

[cyberjock1980]

Apple tries to sell devices for their 'simplicity'.

AT&T bills you in terms of 'complexity'.

Come to think of it, if I were AT&T and I knew that the iPhone was a device for 'simplicity', maybe I could hide lots of charges in an overly extravagant, yet useless 100 page bill. If I like my life simple, am I going to be able to handle the 100 page phone bill? Maybe AT&T is expecting simple me to see a 100 page bill, think to myself 'oh my god I wanna cry' and pay it without trying to find the bajillion hidden charges. I've heard the iPhone bills aren't cheap at all. Is this a coincidence that this is happening?

Re:How Ironic...

[Planesdragon]

maybe I could hide lots of charges

How? Do you think people won't ever look at the amount on their detatchable pay-slip? you think they won't notice when it's higher than they expected?

Re:How Ironic...

[KDEWolf]

Oh sure, you can easily see that on page 76... or was it 86?

Re:5... 4... 3... 2... 1...

[Space cowboy]

Not sure why it's anything to do with *Apple* at all.

There are apparently some ancient (ie regarding POTS calls) laws about what has to be reported to the customer. AT&T is just obeying the law. If you think it's a stupid law (hint: for datacomms, it is), then sign up for e-billing and save a forest or two...

Who knows, in some other reality, AT&T might even pass on some savings to you if you do... No postage, no paper costs...

Simon

Re:Someone got $3000 bill for using iPhone in Euro

[Anonymous Coward]

The rep quoted me $.005 per KB .005 dollars or .005 cents? :P

It's not just the iPhone...

[HebrewToYou]

This issue has little to do with the iPhone and much to do with AT&T Mobility/Cingular Wireless' odd record keeping. My BlackBerry service also generates a massive bill -- length, not cost -- every month. Nothing new here, folks.

Re:It's not just the iPhone...

[frdmfghtr]

This issue has little to do with the iPhone and much to do with AT&T Mobility/Cingular Wireless' odd record keeping. My BlackBerry service also generates a massive bill -- length, not cost -- every month. Nothing new here, folks.

C'mon, you HAVE to mention the iPhone by name, otherwise it's not newsworthy.

Sheesh! You should know this by now. :)

Re:Someone got $3000 bill for using iPhone in Euro

[iamdrscience]

I don't know, that doesn't seem too unreasonable. I mean, I could take a pretty good guess at how big the web pages I write are and how big the images I use are, but just by glancing at any random webpage I don't think my guess would be pretty accurate. Likewise I think it's difficult to guess what would be an "average" size for a webpage. There are just too many variables involved.

Re:'Kansas City Shuffle'..

[smack.addict]

This has exactly what to do with AT&T billing practices?

Re:Someone got $3000 bill for using iPhone in Euro

[soccer_Dude88888]

doesn't matter. According to Verizon's customer service rep.

Maybe they just sent out the wrong copies....

[dyfet]

Maybe those were the copies that were supposed to be sent to the NSA...

Re:Someone got $3000 bill for using iPhone in Euro

[tomhudson]

Web pages are getting ridiculously heavy, thanks to high-speed internet and people feeling that they don't have to optimize - "it takes away from the experience."

The same can be said for server loads - page generation is going backwards in terms of cpu usage. I've seen php scripts that end up #including almost 100 other scripts ON EVERY PAGE LOAD!!!

This is insane.

of course

[XiX36]

when they get the billing system worked out, instead of saying "type of data: data" it will now read "type of data: pr0n"

Type of File? Data.

[RealGrouchy]

For instance, I know that on July 27 at 3:21 p.m. I had some data use that, under the To/From heading, AT&T has helpfully listed as Data Transfer. The Type of file? Data. Really? On my bill, every single line says "Porn"

- RG>

Side on Shots

[Nexum]

I found the shots on the Ars webpage pretty useless - surely a side-on shot would be better? Anyone want to link a better photo of these slabs of dead tree?

Re:Side on Shots

[old and new again]

here http://www.engadget.com/2007/08/13/iphone-bill-unb oxed-by-justine-tv/

That's a real problem, but it's unrelated.

[Valdrax]

The billing system HAS to keep track of all of this to properly bill for non-unlimited access. Furthermore, it has to keep track of this for unlimited billing customers because plan changes do NOT come through instantly. Usually plan changes come in once per day.

Also, there's absolutely no reason for Cingular to be sharing their billing data with the NSA when the modus operandi for wiretapping in the land-line world has been to simply provide a live copy of all the switch data as it comes through. I doubt that the NSA wants the billing records considering how many calls were just simply stripped out to prevent bug-created billing problems from overbilling the customer at the cell phone company I worked for. The NSA would probably prefer the raw records to draw their own conclusions from.

The data is free

[Realistic_Dragon]

But the charge you $15/page for the bill!

Spend $1 to earn $0.50

[Masque]

In the AT&T contract details for the iPhone plans there is a little gem: You pay $0.50 for each "message" over 300KB. It doesn't clearly define what a "message" is. This kind of paper trail, however, would let you see exactly when you sent that "message", and would allow them a little firmness to the ground on which they'd be standing. "See? On 8/15/07 at 2150 you sent 302KB. That'll be $0.50 please."

I wonder if their gains from this billing pay for their costs in sending such bills.

Re:Spend $1 to earn $0.50

[frdmfghtr]

In the AT&T contract details for the iPhone plans there is a little gem: You pay $0.50 for each "message" over 300KB. It doesn't clearly define what a "message" is. This kind of paper trail, however, would let you see exactly when you sent that "message", and would allow them a little firmness to the ground on which they'd be standing. "See? On 8/15/07 at 2150 you sent 302KB. That'll be $0.50 please."

I have several line items over 300k on my last (18 pages!) bill. They were substantially over 300k, as in 700k, 800k, even ne as large as 1.8 MB. The charge for all of them was exactly zero.

Care to point out in the contract where this charge is listed? I looked and I couldn't find it.

Re:Spend $1 to earn $0.50

[ELiTeUI]

Probably means MMS messages over 300KiB.

Re:Spend $1 to earn $0.50

[Glytch]

I thought the iphone didn't have MMS. (I could be wrong.)

Re:Spend $1 to earn $0.50

[frdmfghtr]

Sadly, at this time, it doesn't have MMS; I've never had much use for it, but it would be nice to have the option.

Well.

[vistapwns]

This might explain why the bill is iphone high. Stupid louisiana brain deathers.

Re:Well.

[carpe.cervisiam]

sorry, I just don't get the "Stupid louisiana brain deathers." reference.

Electronic Bills

[squidguy]

For the record you can get your bills via email from Cingular err AT&T but you have to explicitly request a turn off of paper billing. I think they'd prefer to go this route because it costs them less but I suspect US consumer protection laws (and possibly the FCC, which controls tariffs) require paper by default.
What's the big deal here anyway? If they didn't provide the detailed billing info some asshat on this forum would be complaining about that too!

Same with Charter Cable Phone on Unlimited Plan

[Proudrooster]

Yep, sign up for Charter FREE UNLIMITED LONG DISTANCE and get an itemized bill of all your long distance and zone calls. I think this is so the marketing drones can pull the run out from under you at some future date and point out HOW MUCH FREE SERVICE you have been getting. It appears that companies just want to keep their options open in-case they decide to eliminate or charge MORE for the FREE UNLIMITED SERVICE.

Now that we know this, we should have a contest and see who can generate the largest bill.

Re:Same with Charter Cable Phone on Unlimited Plan

[Anonymous Coward]

rug. pull the rug.

Re:Same with Charter Cable Phone on Unlimited Plan

[petermgreen]

Yep, sign up for Charter FREE UNLIMITED LONG DISTANCE and get an itemized bill of all your long distance and zone calls.
nice, that sounds far preferable to the way it is in the UK where unless you do your own metering of phone usage you have no way to tell if you are getting good value from your unlimited plan or not.

Obviously...

[edittard]

I had some data use that, under the To/From heading, AT&T has helpfully listed as Data Transfer. The Type of file? Data. My total charge? $0.00. This mind-numbing detail goes on for 52 double-sided pages (for 104 printed pages!) with absolutely no variance except the size of the files.'

You probably signed up for the 'hideMyPr0n (tm)' option. Obviously it can't actually lie (that could itself trip you up - 3 hours and 230 meg on BaptistHymns.com when you're a Catholic priest!). So it just displays the information in as generic and meaningless (and hence plausibly deniable) form as possible. And all for only $27.99 per month! YMMV, VWP.

bills, surcharges, and carbon footprints

[JonTurner]

I'm surprised they haven't added a "paper and/or postage surcharge" for a 50+ page bill. I know it requires extra postage, but can one even mail a 50 page document using a standard envelope?

Considering how much the environmental activists pressured Apple to use "greener" manufacturing and packaging, I'm a little surprised they're not taking Apple & the carrier to task for this remarkable waste of paper. I would think there's as much material in one 50-page bill as the iPhone packaging! One or two bills therefore completely undoes any of the efforts to make the product packaging more efficient. Penny wise, pound foolish, as they say.

Re:bills, surcharges, and carbon footprints

[Firehed]

That's 100% AT&T's fault. Apple did their part; if AT&T can't get their shit together, it's their own problem.

Re:bills, surcharges, and carbon footprints

[Anonymous Coward]

I would agree with you if there was an option to use another network. Since Apple has chosen 1 network to be their front man, they get to wear the blame when the shit hits the fan.

Re:bills, surcharges, and carbon footprints

[Firehed]

True, though it's not as though shit hit the fan here. People aren't getting excess charges, just excess paperwork.

Forward looking

[griffjon]

You see, ATT is preparing a new content delivery system, so soon your bill may include:

Date - Transfer Method - Type
08/07/2007 - Data Transfer - Data
08/07/2007 - Tubes - An Internets
08/08/2007 - Sneakernet - l33t w4r3zzz
08/08/2007 - Quantum Entanglement - Welcome Basket of Oranges from The New ATT!

and so on. So lay off, they're planning for a much wider array of services no doubt, and what seems contentless now will soon have great meaning!

Re:Forward looking

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, no no no no... AT&T messed up there. In Quantum Entanglement, the result should be a bowl of petunias and a sperm whale. And, hopefully, they'll bill you -$5 for them.

[Usually, though, they'll just drop Arthur Dent's service.]

Re:Someone got $3000 bill for using iPhone in Euro

[Anonymous Coward]

arent they the same?

For every iPhone you buy....

[edwardpickman]

we'll cut down a forest in your honor.

Save the trees

[Anonymous Coward]

Display the bill on the iphone.

Re:Save the trees

[SharpFang]

You have sent a packet of 15 bytes. Total fee: $0.
[OK]
You have received a packet of 38 bytes. Total fee: $0.
[OK]
You have sent a packet of 11 bytes. Total fee: $0.
[OK]
You have received a packet of 68 bytes. Total fee: $0.
[OK]
You have received a packet of 180 bytes. Total fee: $0.
[OK]
You have received a packet of 231 bytes. Total fee: $0.
[OK]
You have sent a packet of 31 bytes. Total fee: $0.
[OK]
You have received a packet of 98 bytes. Total fee: $0.
[OK]

Re:Save the trees

[Anonymous Coward]

Kind of reminds you of Vista security, doesn't it?

Re:Someone got $3000 bill for using iPhone in Euro

[tomhudson]

its $0.005 per kb - half a cent per kilobit,or 4 cents per kilobyte (more like 5 cents if you include data tranfer overhead, etc). In other words, $50 per megabyte.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilobit
kb = kilobits, same as mb = megabits, not bytes. kB == kilobytes.

Today's front page of slashdot weights in at 517KB - that's over half a megabyte. At that rate, $3000 is just over 100 page views.

That's why you surf the lighter-weight versions of pages: http://slashdot.org/palm/ gives a front page that weighs only 8 KB. A page view at those rates is a dime, instead of $25.00

The slashdot.wml file http://slashdot.org/slashdot.wml is even smaller - 1,471 bytes, or 6 cents.

6 cents for a page using wml, a dime using wap, or $25.00 for "the full experience."

Dead trees

[iamacat]

This should be an important item in green apple campaign. After all, packaging material is used only once, while a bill repeats every month. iPhone owners should get online bill only through their iTunes account.

Re:Dead trees

[Anonymous Coward]

You're a fucking moron. Apple doesn't control AT&T's billing system.

Re:Dead trees

[kestasjk]

1. Round up some cute looking children.

2. Smudge some dirt onto the children and rip their clothes a bit.

3. Take them to a place where computers are dumped, or in this case a place where paper is dumped.

4. Show the kids rubbing themselves into the pile of trash, and holding the trash with a sad look on their face.

5. Create a website.

6. Get more misled members who think the kids are actually affected by the waste in their daily lives, and get media attention.

7. Profit! (Literally)

Re:Dead trees

[Mr Z]

That's exactly right, because Apple had absolutely no choice of which carrier to go with, nor did it have any influence on that carriers policies with respect to its phone. And I'm never sarcastic.

Re:Someone got $3000 bill for using iPhone in Euro

[iminplaya]

Web pages are getting ridiculously heavy, thanks to high-speed internet and people feeling that they don't have to optimize...

Actually it's because they're so heavily laden with advertising. Blocking the ads speeds things up considerably. In fact, when possible, I block everything that's not on the page I'm visiting. I don't know if there's a hosts file on the iPhone to edit.

Re:Someone got $3000 bill for using iPhone in Euro

[alienw]

If you really want to get anal, mb is not megabits, it would be millibits (which doesn't make much sense, but hey). The mega prefix is always a capital M.

It's a feature not a bug...

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a mantra to help you relax. Close your eyes and chant the bill:

Data
Zero
Data
Zero
Data
Zero

Re:Someone got $3000 bill for using iPhone in Euro

[mikael]

Have you tried using 'lynx'? - it is a text based web-browser (though it doesn't support frames). I sometimes use it to get files down quickly without the hassle of intro flash players, frames and all the other goop that gets in the way of actual information

Re:Someone got $3000 bill for using iPhone in Euro

[tomhudson]

I *was* going to include MB for megabytes, just to get all the case modders going "Its MotherBoard, you f%@#tard!", but its not Tuesday :-)

Um, no

[daveschroeder]

They're not "preparing" anyone for anything.

This will remain unlimited, period, and it's not introductory. The only way devices like this make sense is with unlimited data, and they have had unlimited data plans for similar handsets and devices for years. Competition with carriers that offer unlimited, high speed wireless data (Sprint, Verizon) is only increasing.

They've had this detailed billing system in place forever, and - newsflash - there are millions of AT&T/Cingular handsets out there that do NOT have unlimited data, and get billed for it. They may "want" to charge you for every download, but the clear trend has been toward flat rate, and bandwidth - even wireless bandwidth - is only getting cheaper.

This is flat rate and unlimited, and that's not changing. The fact that AT&T still shows you the detailed billing is an example of stupidity and an exercise in redundancy, not part of any "softening-up" process, or proof of anything.

I literally can't believe the parent got modded up.

Re:'Kansas City Shuffle'..

[Tom9729]

  Joke==>
        0
       -|-
       / \
       You

Not limited to paper bills

[Anonymous Coward]

If you choose the pre-paid option when signing up for your iPhone, the good news is they don't send you the items on a paper bill. Instead, they annoy you constantly with them popping up as alerts on your phone every few minutes.

How is this insightful?

[daveschroeder]

This isn't a subtle way of saying anything.

And no, it's not "something that needs to be brought up" (I can hear it now) whenever someone talks about AT&T.

If anything, AT&T wouldn't want to remind people of this. (No, wait...let me guess: they do want you to know, because AT&T is part of the corporate/government machinery that wants to get the "sheeple" "used to" being monitored, right? Give me a break.)

The only thing "subtle" here - or not so subtle, actually - is someone taking an opportunity to again bring up the AT&T/NSA issue again in a completely and utterly unrelated context.

It's a detailed billing system that has to exist to, you know, bill for data usage, being used on handsets with unlimited data plans, quite ridiculously, when not needed.

Re:How is this insightful?

[TheVelvetFlamebait]

I don't understand. What's not insightful about it? It accuses the government and a big corporation of corruption! What more could you want from a comment?

52 pages thats it??

[ShadowHywind]

I do not own a iphone, and My plan is a family plan with 5 phones, Our normal page length is about 180-200. 3 out of the 5 phones are normally just 2-3 pages. With the other 2 phones taking up the rest. You can check the same details online, Cingular should have a option to just send out one page saying how much you owe. And give you a credit for opting out of a paper bill

Employees hate the billing.

[MikeFM]

Be glad your not an employee. When I worked at Cingular it was a nightmare when customers called in and wanted you to explain their bills. It's so complex and ass backwards that often nobody that works for Cingular can even tell you what it all means. It's pretty stupid when you have to pow wow with two or three managers to get a decent guess at what the bill is trying to say. It's a definate case of information overload being used to hide the real content from customers.

Re:Employees hate the billing.

[Firethorn]

It's been a joke of mine that it costs the phone companies more to bill you for a phone call than it does for them to provide the phone call.

IE they could charge everybody a flat rate, not have 'detailed billing', charge people less money overall and still make more money than under the current system.

Re:Employees hate the billing.

[failedlogic]

I agree with parent poster.

I've worked for another company in the same industry and friends have worked for their competitors. We all found the respective telco company bills difficult to read - espcecially in the computer systems we were using. Its not always evident - on complex and long bills to find out what's going on. The comptuer system I used was so bad and difficult to read, I eneded up putting customers on hold sometimes, generating a bill in the computer system and printing it out.

So if ever you do call customer service trying to explain your bill, keep in mind many of the industry players have legacy or poorly made billing systems (usually poorly made) and its quite difficult to read.

Re:Employees hate the billing.

[homey of my owney]

You would think that a data company would have a more efficient billing process.

Who would think that?

Re:Employees hate the billing.

[aralin]

It sort of explains why it takes AT&T whole 10 days (WTF?) to prepare my bill after period close. Still does not explain where they get the audacity to charge me a month in advance when they can have no idea how much I am going to use my phone or why they would not prorate any of this fee back if I quit in middle of the month. If any of this happened in Europe, the wireless operator would be out of business in three months.

Re:Employees hate the billing.

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, that's the dumb thing with this bill -- the data IS flat rate. The billing system just mysteriously prints out all that data anyway.

          Now, my Verizon Wireless bill also lists each connection to "#777" and length of time.. on my phone. It doesn't have flat-rate data, it's minutes of use, so it makes sense. This bill is online only. My air card, however, just lists KB/month, and that's that.

Re:Employees hate the billing.

[GodfatherofSoul]

That's the whole point. If your bill is a gazillion pages long with obfuscated charges, it makes it easier for phone companies to sneak in extra charges. When you look at your phone bill through that lens (and compare your monthly phone bill to other utilities) it becomes pretty obvious what the game plan is for the industry.

Re:Employees hate the billing.

[iluvcapra]

So if ever you do call customer service trying to explain your bill, keep in mind many of the industry players have legacy or poorly made billing systems (usually poorly made) and its quite difficult to read.

At what support tier do I stop being nice and and understanding to the temp, and start to bitch out the manager for having an incompetent business process?

Re:Employees hate the billing.

[heinousjay]

At whatever point you think whining would be more effective than talking, since that's what bitching at someone on the phone sounds like. At least that's what it always sounded like to me. Especially when it was a guy trying to get all tough about it. I'd record the conversation and laugh for weeks.

Re:Employees hate the billing.

[Anonymous Coward]

You would think that...

Who would think that?

Uh, you.

Re:Employees hate the billing.

[Anonymous Coward]

keep in mind many of the industry players have legacy or poorly made billing systems
Heh heh yep. Complete with addressable cursors!

Re:Employees hate the billing.

[sjaguar]

While I agree that customers tend to suffer from information overload, it is not always the wireless companies fault. After working for a wireless billing company for the past 13 years, I have found that the government causes a lot of the confusion. When producing invoices, we had to make sure that they complied with federal, state, county, and city regulations. Matters would get more complex when dealing with some national carriers as you now have to comply with more regulatory bodies.

Of course, the wireless companies are not blameless. When rating rules become so complex that it takes more than a printed page to explain a specific rule, the rules are too complex for both the wireless company and the consumer.

Re:Employees hate the billing.

[bronsinbound]

That's because they outsourced all the employees who ever had business knowledge and hired cheap labor. All the adverts about service is pure smoke (delivered via a rectal smoke pipe)!!!

Re:Employees hate the billing.

[Midnight Thunder]

At what support tier do I stop being nice and and understanding to the temp, and start to bitch out the manager for having an incompetent business process?

Don't bitch, since they are just as caught in the system as you are. If they won't get the job done, then talk to their manager and if they can't get the job done because of the process ask them whether there is anyone with the authority to solve the problem. Patience and understanding are what is needed, since you can't fight the system, but you can get the system to play against itself (anyone reading the 12 tasks of Asterix will know what I mean :) )

Later on, if you care enough, write a letter to the company outlining the issues. Believe me a letter is still worth something.

Re:Employees hate the billing.

[MikeFM]

If you've studied phone networks then you're probably aware that a lot of the complexity in the system is related to billing - simply switching to a flat billing model would immediately make their network a lot cheaper, easier to manage, and more robust. If you include the savings on staff, paperwork, etc it'd have to be a staggering amount of savings. Some day a cell phone company will get bright and offer a flat plan similar to what a lot of VoIP companies offer.

Of course after having worked at Cingular / AT&T I don't think they are going to be the ones to make that breakthrough. The nitwits can't even figure out how to make their internal documentation search work correctly (it's almost impossible to find any useful information) despite people like me advising them of easy solutions like going with a Google Search Appliance. Month after month they whine about how they're falling in customer satisfaction but they keep raising their fees for things like text messaging which can't have gone up in price for them to provide. They're out of tune with their employees, customers, providers, and damn near everyone else.

Normal

[kurtis25]

ATT is trying to be business friendly with this. They need to offer such bills so IT and AP can make sure money is being well spent.

Re:Someone got $3000 bill for using iPhone in Euro

[edittard]

I've seen php scripts that end up #including almost 100 other scripts ON EVERY PAGE LOAD!!!
This is insane.

I agree, nobody in their right mind uses PHP.

Not intersting for you

[houghi]

But it sure is interesting for Homeland Security

Re:Not intersting for you

[Anonymous Coward]

let's face facts, if the man wanted to keep you down, you'd be down. don't think you're sly or insightful. you're just another naive little moron in a long line of morons. the difference is that most of the other morons use spell check. i assure you, it's very interesting.

with corporate America

[Travoltus]

the exact opposite is true.

Never attribute to incompetence what can be explained by malice (i.e., greed)...

Re:with corporate America

[jdigriz]

Actually with corporate america, it's much more likely to be them being incompetent at being malicious. They're going for clever and evil but often end up at stupid and evil.

Re:with corporate America

[Travoltus]

Corporations tend to get what they want, and they are the most efficient parasites upon the rest of the world: the environment, the Government, and the working class.

That precludes stupidity in the social darwinistic sense. It's a great sign of a highly evolved predator.

Re:with corporate America

[jdigriz]

Amoebas, sharks and tapeworms also tend to get what they want. That doesn't make them any less stupid. The ability to survive does not imply intelligence, it just means being able to avoid ultimate failure and death. And plenty of corporations do fail and die. After a century, the only surviving corporation of the 12 behemoths that made up the original Dow Jones Industrial Average is General Electric.

Online billing is a bad idea

[Doctor O]

I'm amazed and a bit shocked that there are so many people here who think that paperless billing is an acceptable idea. It isn't, because:

1) It can be manipulated after the fact. "What were you suing us for? Look at your online bill, it says nothing about the 4-hour-call to Farkistan you claim we've wrongfully charged you for."
2) You can't prove the manipulation. "That so-called 'print' you have, it's trivial to fake out *anything*. Anybody can save an online bill to his local computer and change anything to his liking, and print it."
3) Sooner or later (usually sooner), the telco fucks up your billing. It's inevitable. And when trouble strikes, with a paper bill you have nice physical proof of their fuckup, nicely delivered in a dated envelope, printed with their type of toner on their business letter sheets.

Here in Germany, the telcos tend to default to online billing and you have to pay for paper bills. I gladly do, because of all the above. I've yet to encounter a telco or ISP that *never* fucks up billing.

(They're usually fighting with legacy billing systems which don't scale so well with the flood of clients they get as monopolization continues. That's a dragon that's *very* difficult to slay, because you can't just halt the system to migrate it, and you must make sure that it supports all existing business processes. The last thing alone can even give very experienced integrators sleepless nights and lots of headaches. I think it's just the natural result of growing complexity in business processes. It's your call whether you blame them for it or just shrug it off. I do the latter.)

Re:Online billing is a bad idea

[eebra82]

"I'm amazed and a bit shocked that there are so many people here who think that paperless billing is an acceptable idea. It isn't, because:"

If you read my post again, you will realize that I am not proposing a paperless billing. I only propose that AT&T put the 52 pages online and just summarize all important data on the bill. There is certainly no need to receive pages and pages of traffic data since only a small number of people would want this. In fact, I think they should charge people who request such a service because it sounds like a complete waste of good paper.

Re:Online billing is a bad idea

[Doctor O]

I wasn't referring to your post only, but the general tendency I've noticed in other posts, too. It's no question that sending 104-page bills (those were printed on both sides) is pretty stupid, especially for a service with a flat fee.

So why do you still get a paper bill?

[Anonymous Coward]

Like here in The Netherlands, providers just send you a mail with your bill... nothing on paper.
If you want paper, you pay extra (mostly the first page with a summary is free however).

Looks like good idea for AT&T :)

Details Lacking

[roseacres]

Used to be you could look at your landline phone bill on-line and be able to click on a long distance call to see who the call went to. Now that's an added optional feature available only when you agree to pay your bill through direct debit from your bank account. But I still get a printed detailing of all data chgs which tells me exactly nothing. Go figure.

talking about long bills

[dogfolife69]

just the unlimited text packages on my bill gets it to at least 54 pages on a slow month.... I think its all just a waste of paper.... But i must say i do take a couple minutes to make sure they are not sneaking in Charges for no reason.

An Onion article perfectly pictures that situation

[unity100]

Here :

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/39486

Just put any coffee cups etc you are holding away before reading.

Re:Someone got $3000 bill for using iPhone in Euro

[value_added]

That's why you surf the lighter-weight versions of pages: http://slashdot.org/palm/ gives a front page that weighs only 8 KB.

Wow. I've been dealing with oversized, CPU-intensive sites the entire morning. My headache just disappeared.

Seriously, I had no idea that existed. Now if I could read Slashdot in mutt (properly threaded, of course), my life would be complete. Hell, I'd pony up a fat subscription fee for such a service ... providing I didn't get an itemized bill of the time I wasted, of course.

Transfer Detail

[ppanon]

Maybe they are keeping that level of detail because that's what Homeland Security asked for.

Re:Transfer Detail

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure, NSA/Homeland Security have nothing better to do than to go blind reading the 100+ page billing history of calls for a few million people every month. lol - sound like the bills are screwing up AT&Ts computers, they are so f-ed. The Government can't even get a dress dry-cleaned, and you think they can make a computer that will understand all that?

Re:Transfer Detail

[SharpFang]

Why, of course they won't READ it. They just want it stored away in the archives "just in case". (of course the info is useless, but it won't be known until it's needed, that is, never.)

Re:Transfer Detail

[ppanon]

of course the info is useless, but it won't be known until it's needed, that is, when it's useful to expose an opposing congressman or hit up a businessman for contributions come election time.

There, fixed that for you.

Re:Someone got $3000 bill for using iPhone in Euro

[repvik]

Try using "links" instead. It supports frames

Long Bill Charge

[bdkraem]

Excess paper usage due to ridiculously long billing statement .....$5.00

Re:Long Bill Charge

[Firethorn]

You think this is bad? They ship the cell phone bills to my dad's work in those boxes that hold 8-10 reams of paper. Each month.

Daisy, Daisy...

[carandol]

You would think that a data company would have a more efficient billing process.

Don't know why anyone would think that. A friend of mine is still getting 6 page bills totalling £0.00 from Daisy, four months after she cancelled her account with them.

I shudder to think what it would cost up here...

[sabernet]

Here in Canada, the mobile data rates are nothing short of horrid. Surfing the standard internet on a lil' widget would suck.

case in point

Reminds me of...

[ChePibe]

That reminds me of something a professor of mine used to say.

He required that all assignments be turned in to him in both paper and PDF format. When asked why, he simply responded: "because I love convenience and hate trees."

One day I had pink eye and requested to turn it in only via PDF. He responded by saying "my love of convenience outweighs my hatred of the dirty trees. PDF only, you sicko."

Re:5... 4... 3... 2... 1...

[WhiteWolf666]

I don't believe it.

Why?

I've got two EVDO lines with sprint. One on a WM5 device, one on a USB card for my laptop.

I literally use 10+ GB in data transfer a month. I'm constantly online.

If they itemized my bill by site, file, KB, MB, whatever; it would be thousands upon thousands of pages. They'd have to ship it to me parcel post.

AT&T does this because AT&T dreams of charging you by the kilobyte. That's it. Just because they're currently giving you "FREE UNLIIMTED" service doesn't mean they don't feel robbed. They're last CEO (Ed Whitacre the Third) was the one who droned on and on about how customers and web companies were getting a free ride over their pipes.

Presumably, FREE UNLIMITED on the iphone is one component of that.

Sure it's 52 pages long ...

[Anonymous Coward]

... but just look at the industrial design of the bill ... the shapes and curves and subtle accents ... it's gorgeous

Re:Someone got $3000 bill for using iPhone in Euro

[boarsai]

Depends on what you consider is a website ;) The average myspace website is about 5-10mb ;)

Would you like to know why this is?

[WhiteWolf666]

Let me quote an AT&T (SBC, so yes, this represents the Cingular side) executive for you on data:

From the Financial Times:
"We have to figure out who pays for this bigger and bigger IP network," said Mr Whitacre, who was in New York ahead of AT&T's annual presentation to investors and analysts on Tuesday. "We have to show a return on our investments.?

"I think the content providers should be paying for the use of the network, obviously not the piece from the customer to the network, which has already been paid for by the customer in Internet access fees, but for accessing the so-called Internet cloud.". . . . ."They might pass it on to their customers," he says of the fees that he wants to charge the sites.

How does this apply to wireless, and in particular, the iPhone?

Simple. A quote from Ed Whitacre's sucessor (Randall Stepheson, or RS: in the following interview) explains that. From Gigaom :
OM: AT&T is a fearsome company now, with a weight of its legacy. Any first day jitters?

RS: ... The new AT&T is wireless at the core in terms of great new handsets; in terms of enabling true anytime, anywhere mobility that our customers want and in terms of being innovative and service-oriented. If there are any jitters, it's from the excitement running through this company about our prospects.

OM: There are a lot of challenges facing the company. What do you think is the biggest challenge facing AT&T as a company and you personally?

RS: Our biggest challenge as a company is to ensure that our customers really understand what the new AT&T is all about. We are the most complete communications and entertainment provider for the way people live-and that starts with wireless. When people recognize that, we win. It's the same on the business side.

My personal challenge is to make sure that the pieces we've assembled-industry-leading wireless, TV, broadband, global operations and local service work together as smoothly and efficiently as possible.

OM: How vital is iPhone to your company? I have never seen AT&T push something so hard that wasn't developed internally. Why is that?

RS: The iPhone is a radically innovative new device and it only makes sense that AT&T and Apple would partner to bring it to market. This device is very important to us, it's important to Apple and it is going to do very well with customers. It also reinforces with consumers that AT&T is the place to turn for the latest in wireless devices and services.

How do I read this? AT&T feels that content providers (Google, Yahoo, AOL, CBS, etc . . .) should pay for each individual customer's access on a per-usage basis. AT&T also feels that wireless devices are the cornerstone of their future in ALL realms of connectivity, including business and entertainment.

It only follows naturally that being able to account for *every single packet* a customer uses is part of that billing strategy. You aren't going to be billed by AT&T on that basis; they're going to bill Google et al, and you'll get a bill from the content provider. Let me quote Whitacre again: They might pass it on to their customers," he says of the fees that he wants to charge the sites. .

Clear as day. If you don't see this coming a mile away, there's something wrong with you.

From Prank the Monkey:

[ResidntGeek]

Someone better get a credit card with an insulting name and send a blown-up copy to them.

Steve Jobs' bill

[(re)Hash]

Makes you wonder what Steve Jobs' bill looks like...

Re:Steve Jobs' bill

[ELiTeUI]

Steve Jobs' bill looks like this: Total amount due: $0.00

Re:Steve Jobs' bill

[SharpFang]

Steve Jobs' bill looks nerdy, and skinny, wears glasses, and sucks Steve's cock every morning in exchange for ideas he can implement in Windows.

Re:Someone got $3000 bill for using iPhone in Euro

[jisatsusha]

Try w3m, it supports tables, mouse, etc.

Re:Someone got $3000 bill for using iPhone in Euro

[aralin]

Because the php scripts are written by a C programmer. I spend at least 10% of my time at work trying to explain to compiled language programmers how to write in a scripted language. They are simply used to include everything and the kitchen sink and rely on compiler to sort it out.

Intentional confusion

[zymano]

To muddle your bill so you wont bother asking about anything.

They call the universal service charge or somethings like it called an fcc bill when it isn't. They just pocket the money.

Next months bill

[kramulous]

People with iPhones should get their bills online. That way you can chew up your data usage viewing n-1's bill.

Re:Someone got $3000 bill for using iPhone in Euro

[tomhudson]

lynx, links, wget, and curl are my friends. Plus, I have a half-decent connection (10mpbs - I don't want to pay for a 20mbps connection - 10/1 is good enough for sharing linux isos).

Re:Someone got $3000 bill for using iPhone in Euro

[tomhudson]

"Because the php scripts are written by a C programmer. I spend at least 10% of my time at work trying to explain to compiled language programmers how to write in a scripted language. They are simply used to include everything and the kitchen sink and rely on compiler to sort it out."

Hey, I resemble that remark! :-)

Actually, I'm not a big fan of code bloat in c/c++ either. That's why I try to avoid the STL if I can, even though it does make life easier (TR1 brings regexes to the standard libraries, for example).

Re:but if you're a data customer you don't exist

[Anonymous Coward]

True story, my company just installed two point to point data T1s to support a remote node off of an Avaya phone system. I met the AT&T techs at each location, to provide access to the demarcation point, when they were installing the spans, everything came up fine. A few days later, the Avaya installer noticed a problem on one of the spans and asked me to open a trouble ticket with AT&T. I relayed the circuit number off of the smartjack, which one of the installer techs had applied as he finished up the install, and gave this to the person at their helpdesk. Helpdesk person says, "I have no record of this circuit, let me pass you over to Joe's group, maybe they can help you". Same response by at least 3 or 4 groups, I gave up. Good thing our company is considered a 'growth or national account', we have dedicated inhouse support personnel; my AT&T in Colorado, with his backup in Georgia, have not even replied to an email for assistance. Back in the day, this problem would have been solved in half an hour. God help us.

umm... so?

[twoshoes]

It seams like this is complaining just for the sake of complaining. Does anything with the word iPhone in it get the greenlight on slashdot?

Re:umm... so?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes!

That's nothing

[kingcool1432]

Someone got a $218 trillion mobile bill in Malaysia http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/08/12/yahaya_mah ab_bill/

Re:5... 4... 3... 2... 1...

[stephanruby]

"There are apparently some ancient (ie regarding POTS calls) laws about what has to be reported to the customer. AT&T is just obeying the law. If you think it's a stupid law (hint: for datacomms, it is), then sign up for e-billing and save a forest or two... "

I don't think so, at least not in my State (which happens to be California). I have two unlimited data/cell phone accounts (one for work and one for personal use) from two different companies, and I don't get any of that nonsense (and by the way, I didn't sign up for e-billing either -- although I'm sure I could get that information online if I wanted to).

In any case, if I really needed to get that detailed information, I wouldn't even need to download it. My phone has a logging mechanism for keeping track of my call/data connections information, it has one gig of memory -- so it's not like it's going to make much of dent on it.

The Bright side

[eiapoce]

See the bright side: You are getting a free ride of... Toilet Paper!

Re:The Bright side

[frdmfghtr]

See the bright side: You are getting a free ride of... Toilet Paper!

Is this a new idea for limiting your wireless use? By the literal pain in the ass your bill becomes?

I Hate AT&T Bills

[bastion_xx]

And by mean hate, I mean hate. AT&T are evil. And by evil, I mean evil.

Circa 2002 - I purchase a Frame Relay circuit from AT&T which works well for a year or so. Then a glitch. Then I find out it's impossible to get to a live human being to log the fault (with a 4 hour SLA). This goes on until 2004. Literally, for 2+ years it took over 45 minutes per-call, on a business service, to get things moving.

Circa 2004 - .com shutdown. Fair enough, cancel AT&T, cancel WCOM, cancel SAAVIS (C&W), BellSouth, etc. Final bills from most vendors, sort out a few. AT&T provides an invoice for a credit of USD$0.94. AND TO THIS DAY I STILL GET "BILLS" FOR A CREDIT OF $0.94 FOR A CLOSED COMPANY. I've made phone calls, written letters, and six chickens and a despondent Voodoo Doctor still have yet to sort out the bill.

AT&T buys BellSouth. Yay, no more bills. Cry!!!! Now the same bill comes from AT&T, The New BellSouth. So not only did they somehow transfer the defunct account to BellSouth the roll it back into AT&T, but they even updated the billing address so I no longer get the USPS yellow forwarding labels FROM A COMPANY CLOSED 3 YEARS AGO! If voodoo doesn't work, can I 90 degree feng shui the bitches?

And this bill, it's not a normal bill. It's 6 pages, front and back, on thick 20#+ paper. The monthly postage is $1.91 on a credit of $0.94. And it taunts me with billing account numbers. I laugh in it's general direction but still cry like a baby when they come each month.

A Fellows $600 shredder was bought special-purpose for this bill. I don't even open the envelope up anymore, but simply insert into the shredder and laugh with manical glee as the shredder, umm, shreds.

What does this have to do with a crazy AT&T bill for iPhone users? Absolutely nothing. But guess what bitches, you've got *years*, no wait, *YEARS!!!!!!* of Georgia Pacific paper getting turned into a document destined to drive you crazy.

I love Apple. Two of my co-workers have iPhones already. I actually like my T-Mobile account. But AT&T have screwed with my brain enough. I hate hate hate hate hate hate hate AT&T. But I still look forward to the day I have an iPhone that has the features of my BB 8800... /. - pray for me....

Sign up for e-billing

[DoomfrogBW]

Sign up for e-billing and you won't notice the pages. Since the "data" information is superfluous to you, it would probably be better to look at a PDF file than 52 paper pages.

Re:Someone got $3000 bill for using iPhone in Euro

[Fulcrum of Evil]

No we aren't. The good ones realize that extra includes obscure what a particular module actually needs and so trim the includes as much as is practical.

Update

[Nazlfrag]

UPDATE, 12:18PM PT: Dave says, "AT&T just called and agreed to waive all charges due to the 'miscommunication.' I think they have a customer for life now."

So remember kids, to get free internet on your iPhone just make sure to get a bill over $3000 and digg your blog.

CNN Mobile doesnt work on Windows Mobile

[bennini]

On my Windows Mobile 6 phone, i generally try to download the "wap" versions of pages, especially when using the costly GPRS; like you mentioned, the slashdot.org/palm version or www.cnn.com/mobile...

unfortunately, CNN recently decided that their mobile page deserved an "upgrade" and now requires java script and Flash 8.
This is particularly moronic, since Internet Explorer for Windows Mobile doesnt support Flash8 and its java script support is also excrutiatingly slow.

it seems web developers just dont give a shit anymore about quality code, lean pages and performance. they just assume everyone is running the latest, greatest browser with cookies, java script, Flash, a JRE, bloat bloat bloat. i dont want to think about what its like for a person using lynx or anyone with a visual disability now with this whole "web 2.0" garbage.

Re:CNN Mobile doesnt work on Windows Mobile

[hobo sapiens]

yeah, and I hate all these programs that require windows 95 or greater and 32M of RAM. Jeez, if I want to use Office 2007 with my 1989 386 running windows 3.11, then why can't I?!?! Stupid developers!

I was with you until that last paragraph. In what universe does "quality code" mean lack of cookies, javascript, and flash? By quality code, do you mean code that is lacking stuff that *you* just don't like for some irrational reason?

Damn Luddites.

Re:CNN Mobile doesnt work on Windows Mobile

[bennini]

well if you had read my post _clearly_, you would have realized i said "WEB DEVELOPERS". alas, it seems all windows operating systems have higher and higher hardware requirements. it would be ridiculous of me to expect my powerbook g4 to run anything created after 2006. silly users.

for the record, yes, i think javascript and flash are pretty much crap. and no, i dont believe either of them belong on a page designed for "mobile" devices. As for hardware requirements, you would think that whichever idiots designed the CNN mobile page would have designed the site to work on both "older" hardware as well as on my 2 month old HTC Artemis. apparently it doesnt run on either

its not a well-kept secret that web designers are some of the laziest people around. CSS has existed for ages but most developers still have no clue how to use it properly. Content goes in HTML pages, design markup goes in CSS. On a mobile device, we want content, not flashy graphics. i think most people with mobile devices would agree on that. Sorry if i offended your l337 php/javascript/ajax/xhtml/css/web2.0 coding hax0r skillz.

Re:CNN Mobile doesnt work on Windows Mobile

[Anonymous Coward]

Well well, if there's one thing worse than a Luddite, it's an angry one.

A technology is not inherently bad just because you can find places where it is badly implemented. It's like all the morons who claim PHP is insecure just because self-"taught" web developers don't know how to use bind vars in SQL queries or how to secure IIS. Are you totally unable to grasp the concept of a good technology being used in a not-so-great fashion? All automobiles are bad, and if you don't believe me, just look at the Yugo. Right?

All I did was defend javascript and cookies from being called "teh stoopid" by someone who is obviously ignorant. Then, somehow, you read into it that I am advocating the gratuitous flashy crap that you can find all over the web. You are really just arguing with yourself, since you don't appear to be responding to my posts. You should just stop here because it looks like you get dumber with each successive post. Pretty soon you'll be typing a series of grunts in response to one of my posts, since you don't seem to have anything intelligent to say.

Re:CNN Mobile doesnt work on Windows Mobile

[Matthew Bafford]

for the record, yes, i think javascript and flash are pretty much crap. and no, i dont believe either of them belong on a page designed for "mobile" devices. As for hardware requirements, you would think that whichever idiots designed the CNN mobile page would have designed the site to work on both "older" hardware as well as on my 2 month old HTC Artemis. apparently it doesnt run on either

Well, there are cases where JavaScript is quite handy on mobile devices - and makes the experience a lot quicker for you, the end user. AJAX really shines on slow bandwidth connections, since you can download just the piece of data that has changed. For example, one of the applications I maintain is a web based mapping application for use over desktop/mobile connections. On the mobile connection each map movement (pan, zoom) could either require a) 10kb html, 30-90kb image, and flickering as the page moves around, or b) 30-90kb image and page position doesn't change because the image was changed inline.

Another aspect is if you present a lot of information that can be summarized with expandable titles (like /. does for comments). When you click on each individual item, you can either a) load the full page again with that summary expanded (or a new page), or b) load just the content, and have the data inserted in. The same advantages apply.

Mobile connections are extremely high latency and slow. Reducing the number of items to be fetched makes a huge difference in speed. The AJAXified page feels a lot faster, and so the experience is a lot nicer. Is it necessary? Absolutely not. The page was designed without ANY JavaScript to start off. It still works just as well with JavaScript turned off as on, but it feels a lot better with it turned on.

Properly used, JavaScript can make the experience a lot better. There are problems (bookmarks can be a big one), and it's often used improperly, but don't dismiss it outright.

Uh-oh

[svunt]

From the various comments above, I estimate that downloading the paperless bill to your iPhone could cost up to $85.70

Unintended consequences...

[jpellino]

Sounds like they plugged the iPhone plans, unlimited data and all, into their existing billing system.
Somebody's dept is getting reamed, after that they should be able to fix it.

Re:Someone got $3000 bill for using iPhone in Euro

[Anonymous Coward]

5 milibits seems a little small, doesn't it?

There's nothing unpaid left over.

[argent]

I know you didn't say this, it's a quote, but it made my brain go "WAIT a godamn second, did he really SAY that?"

"I think the content providers should be paying for the use of the network, obviously not the piece from the customer to the network, which has already been paid for by the customer in Internet access fees, but for accessing the so-called Internet cloud.". . . . ."They might pass it on to their customers," he says of the fees that he wants to charge the sites.

OK, there's three bits here.

The content providers are paying directly for the bit going to the cloud.

The content receivers are paying directly for the bit coming from the cloud.

Who's paying for the bit in the middle?

Well, some of it is paid by whoever the content receivers are paying.

And some of it is paid by whoever the content providers are paying.

And these people, why, they're passing it on to the customer.

ALREADY.

There's nothing left over that isn't being paid for. The cloud is getting its money, already, and the costs are being passed on to the customer, already, and what this sorry son of an elasmobranch wants to do is get them to pay for it twice.

If I double-billed a customer that would be fraud.

Well, you know, I reckon that's an accurate term for what this bloke is trying to pull.

Re:Someone got $3000 bill for using iPhone in Euro

[glitch23]

its $0.005 per kb - half a cent per kilobit,or 4 cents per kilobyte (more like 5 cents if you include data tranfer overhead, etc). In other words, $50 per megabyte.

Oh no, not again with data rates. Do we need to call Verizon to make sure the math is right?

Heh

[smoker2]

I have a T-Mobile account which for £15/month (about $30) gives me 50 minutes of anytime, any network calls and unlimited data over HSDPA.
Nice.
As opposed to Virgin, who charged me 0.005 pence per kb over GPRS.

Re:Heh

[Tony Hoyle]

Tmobile is *not* unlimited it has a 1GB cap. They just say unlimited in the marketing (for some reason this isn't illegal yet here).

Oh and enjoy the fact that they'll cut you off if you use voip, IM or even streaming video (no youtube for you!).

Well, for one thing, think of the rain forest

[Joseph_Daniel_Zukige]

WtFoulup was their excuse for this waste of paper?

Re:Someone got $3000 bill for using iPhone in Euro

[noidentity]

The answer is pretty simple: most web pages are way too big, filled with tons of unncessary scripts and inline styles.

Re:Someone got $3000 bill for using iPhone in Euro

[maokh]

hmmmm...lets see.

Data usage indicated on the iPhone * roaming rate = cost.

How hard is that?

Re:Someone got $3000 bill for using iPhone in Euro

[icepick72]

I'll argue that caching and memory usage have advanced and increasing hardware speeds can justify increasing server usage. Sure if you optimize you can get a lot more out of the same server. But it's also viable to throw more hardware at the problem too if that's an affordable option.

Bill also says format changing soon

[SuperKendall]

I hate to spoil a good rant, but this months bill at least says they are going to go to a summary format soon where the bill shows only charges and other items like data plan usage are available online. Seems like AT&T would be very aware of this as a problem due to printing costs alone!

$3000? That's easy enough.

[Shag]

I ran up about $450 in international roaming charges in less than a week of traveling in 2004 - and I didn't use my phone much. $0.99 to $4.99 per minute on top of your actual call charges will do that to you. You could take ATT's cheapest, least-featured phone to Europe for a month, talk a lot, and come back to this or worse - without using any data at all.

Happens in all kinds of industries.

[Shag]

I had a 401(k) somewhere. I don't remember which investment company it was with, or what former employer of mine it correlated to, or anything. Anyway, I rolled it into an IRA I had, along with some other old accounts. It went well - except for the investment company leaving a balance of about $0.11 in the 401(k) account.

They now spend about $0.75 every quarter to mail me a thick statement telling me whether my balance has fallen to $0.10, risen to $0.12, or whatever.

I realize that informing them would be the merciful thing to do, but my sense of ethics isn't that overdeveloped, so I let nature take its course.

Re:Happens in all kinds of industries.

[Kahm-Hime]

A friend of mine really disliked his former cellular provider, so when he changed companies he overpaid his last bill by 2 cents. He's received a bill from that company every month for three years now, cheerfully informing him that he has a 2 cent credit.

I keep telling him that if he ever moves, he should make sure that they receive his change-of-address notification. :)

Re:Happens in all kinds of industries.

[mwvdlee]

I used to have a savings account with quite a bit of money on it. I then switched to another bank and transferred all those funds into another savings account on january 1st of 2003 or so. Since I never closed the account at the first bank, I ended up getting compound interest of 1 eurocent a few years later, and it's been growing ever since (still not more than 1 eurocent, but it shouldn't take long before it hits 2!). I was just planning to close down the account, but now I'll just leave it open for the fun of it.

Re:Happens in all kinds of industries.

[slapout]

Reminds me of the dividend check I once got for $0.25
Cost em $0.33 to mail it.

Re:Happens in all kinds of industries.

[Anonymous Coward]

Even Funnier,

I was with American Express, and wanted to close my account. They said there was a $50 fee to do so. I then asked if I could withdraw everything EXCEPT $1. They said that was allowed.

Needless to say, I got this HUGE statement every quarter telling me the fund allocations, performance etc on my $1. For those of you with old .com/.bomb brokerage accounts that were loaded with stuff you will know what I mean. Easily 10 double sided landscape pages, came in a big envelope.

Needless to say after a few years I get tired of receiving the giant envelopes. I call them up, ask if I can close my account without paying the fee. Happy to give them the money left. 2 seconds and it was closed. Thank goodness I finally talked with someone with some sense.

Re:Happens in all kinds of industries.

[Anonymous Coward]

Back when one of my roommates canceled our last land line, she paid what she thought was the final bill only to receive another bill for something like $1.27. Really, what's the point? Like someone earlier in this thread said, at some point it costs more to print and mail the bill than the phone company would ever recoup from remittance.

Anyway, having had a similar experience myself some time earlier, I advised her to pay exactly twice the amount, just to piss them off. Since she'd closed her account, they had to send her a refund check for $1.27.

There has to be someone working at the phone company who's bright enough to realize that attempting to recover any amount less than $x is actually costing the company money. Why don't they just send a final letter that says "Look, we waived your final $1.27 in fees for your convenience, which is just one more reason why we're a great phone company!" This one mailing would cost less than mailing a bill, processing a mail-in payment, and sending a final receipt/statement.

Re:Happens in all kinds of industries.

[SimDarth]

I did the same thing to Cingular. Get a statement every month telling me I have a 1 cent credit.

The problem is middle ground...

[alexhmit01]

If I get a big phone bill, I want the detailed bill to figure out why. With T-mobile Fav5, I want to track who gets calls, to update the 5 if necessary. However, I don't want a whole bunch of "data 0" lines. The problem that I had with Cingular is that I couldn't ever figure out WHY my bills were really high, because I'd have to go through 50 pages of garbage looking for it.

The data dump of the detailed billing obscures what you want, which is charges.

What people WANT is a summary, X minutes in calls to number Y, to understand charges. Instead, we get dumped with a tree's worth of detail of 0.00 charges.

You are correct, you can get detailed billing turned off, but then you get no information. It's normally safer to get the detailed bill and shred it each month, then not have it if you need it. If they offered a summary bill with the option to get detailed or simplified, that would be great. But if you want info, you need to get EVERYTHING.

Alex

Re:The problem is middle ground...

[RESPAWN]

Actually, what annoys me the most about detailed billing (I don't have an iPhone with Cingular, mind you) are the incoming calls listed. I'm not sure if this is a state or federal thing, but I've been with three providers over the last 7 years and each of them simply list incoming calls as something to the effect of "Incoming: 23m". I would really like to know WHO called me that I talked to for 23 minutes. Or even better who the hell I called me during peak times that I ended up talking to for 104 minutes. That knowledge should have just as much bearing on my personal cell plan auditing as knowing who I called out to.

Other than that, with my current provider everything else is generally listed as Data usage: 0.00, Text messaging: 0.00, etc.

Re:Someone got $3000 bill for using iPhone in Euro

[tomhudson]

Energy costs ... not just for the hardware, but for the additional cooling, etc. Then there's the problems of concurrency, etc., which get worse the more cpus you throw at a problem, which is why throwing more servers into the mix doesn't scale linearly.

A lot of that is scripts that load a lot of code that is parsed, loads a lot of other code that is also parsed, and then finally, after 50 to 100 or more files are loaded and parsed, it gets around to actually starting to DO something.

This is SO wasteful. And then there are the "templating solutions"; their "compiled templates" aren't - at least not in the true meaning of the word compiled. They're not even optimized by removing redundant spacing, variable name reduction, etc.

Its sad.

Re:Someone got $3000 bill for using iPhone in Euro

[smellotron]

The same can be said for server loads - page generation is going backwards in terms of cpu usage. I've seen php scripts that end up #including almost 100 other scripts ON EVERY PAGE LOAD!!!

It may brighten your day to discover that a well-optimized site can still include a lot of scripts and avoid latency due to script caching engines like APC. Actually, the best-case scenario for something like APC is a script that performs 0 conditional includes: everything up at the top, always the same, so that it can precompile as much as possible. It's the same notion as using Precompiled Headers in MS Visual Studio to speed up your build time. Rasmus Lerdorf works like a fiend to optimize syscall count in PHP, particularly with APC and initial script loading.

Remember all that about premature optimization being the root of all evil. If you haven't measured the relative cost of all of those includes, you can't make a blanket statement about HOW HORRIBLE IT IS!!!!

Re:Someone got $3000 bill for using iPhone in Euro

[smellotron]

A lot of that is scripts that load a lot of code that is parsed, loads a lot of other code that is also parsed, and then finally, after 50 to 100 or more files are loaded and parsed, it gets around to actually starting to DO something.

Personally, that's why I avoid PEAR... Any PEAR solution is general enough to work for most people, but far bulkier than a hand-tailored solution, and generally notorious for dividing code out into about 5 bajillion scripts. If you want to generalize something and keep it fast, do it in C and export it as a PHP module like PECL. In any case, the cost of excess mandatory includes can be significantly reduced by a script-caching engine like APC.

Then there's the problems of concurrency, etc., which get worse the more cpus you throw at a problem, which is why throwing more servers into the mix doesn't scale linearly.

Typical PHP apps pretty basic, and pretty easy to parallelize. The "hard" concurrency is all in DB land, and it doesn't matter if 100 different processes are connecting or one process is connecting 100 times; it's going to look the same to the DB (minus TCP overhead, but if you're worrying about TCP overhead, stop using scripting language!). Throwing more servers at the problem will scale it very well, provided the DB is fast enough. It's not the same as more CPUs on a single server; there's much less contention between processes on a server farm than processes on a single megalomonster computer.

Re:Someone got $3000 bill for using iPhone in Euro

[Anonymous Coward]

Not if you're just referring to the content on the page.

Cingular wasn't a Data Company

[Anonymous Coward]

The parent telco + long distance company AT&T is rapidly becoming a data company - it handles far more bits worth of data than voice, though the dollars are still probably more on the voice side.

AT&T Wireless, aka Cingular, is *not* a data company - they're a mobile voice and short-message and ringtone service company, grudgingly selling data service, and they're really annoyed that their customers want to pay for it at data-like prices rather than 10 cents per 256-byte text message prices. And most of their competition is no different about it.

As a stockholder and customer I can say that their billing sucks; as an employee I have to recommend that you talk to the PR department or else call some voice-response machine on your shiny new iPhone :-)

Re:Someone got $3000 bill for using iPhone in Euro

[jeffasselin]

I feel a lot of repressed anger in you. Jealous much?

at least they aren't using Verizon math

[willutah]

Does this make anyone else remember the .002 cents debacle where Verizon insisted that .002 cents was equivalent to .002 dollars. See http://verizonmath.blogspot.com/ for the saga, or http://media.putfile.com/Verizon-Bad-Math for the original phone call recording.

Monopolies

[Degrees]

You would think that a data company would have a more efficient billing process.

But if you are a regulated monopoly that gets to charge operating costs + 10%, isn't it is your best interest to maximize your operating costs?

Now admittedly, wireless is probably the most competitive of all the data services (easiest to switch vendors, you actually have more than one vendor to choose from (well, not for iPhone users)). But my point is that these aren't new corporations with new ways of thinking. They are still old fashioned corporations where CYA is more important than customer service. Will they change to a shorter form? Of course they will. But it won't be because the director of billing information systems told his people "If it's what is best for the customer, do it!" It will be because the customers complained to the customer service reps, who told their supervisors, who scheduled a cross-business-line-meeting, who will tell the billing information systems manager what screw-up he is. And he will whine that if they didn't print out every freaking line item, then he wouldn't have been allowed to cover his ass with the customer bills.

Besides, when the bean-counters come snooping around looking for ways to cut costs, the billing information systems manager will get to propose emailing the bill, and then shift the work to the CSRs to convince the customers to sign up. If cost's aren't going down, it's because the CSRs aren't selling it enough. Meanwhile, billing information systems manager gets a bigger part of the company budget than he would have otherwise. By costing more, his department is worth more to the company.

In a truly free market, this would be financial suicide. But due to origins of telecom, these aren't really free-market companies (or at least they don't think like them yet).

Re:Monopolies

[frdmfghtr]

And he will whine that if they didn't print out every freaking line item, then he wouldn't have been allowed to cover his ass with the customer bills.

He must have a size "52 pages" ass then...maybe he should hit the gym more often.

simple solution implemented by large man

[icepick72]

Maybe you have to whittle your thumbs to make more effective use of the device, leaving no room for gaps between data transfers. With this surgery you can get your pages down to 10: http://www.snopes.com/humor/iftrue/iphonethumb.asp

What the Fuck?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Someone got $3000 bill for using iPhone in Euro"

The rep quoted me $.005 per KB but did not disclose what that would translate to in layman's language (i.e., X amount per e-mail, X amount per web page, etc.). I'm a web developer as part of my career and I couldn't even tell you how many KB the average web page is, no less a text message to my son, an e-mail with a photo to my mother, or a quick check of Google Maps. That's part one of the trap. From his same post:

Billing phone reps offered me a $400 "courtesy credit" on the $3000 charge if I would agree to sign up for a $300 per year international data plan with a max of 20MB per month. (I'm not planning any international travel for a while anyway, but 20MB would be burned in a day or two of average use - they must be kidding.) So I guess he is well-versed in average data usage now? Or was it a Freudian slip..?

Welcome to Bell Mobility

[apoKalypse]

My invoices for Bell Mobility have been arriving in very large envelopes due to my (unlimited) data usage and text messaging. They are billing the same way AT&T does, except I also get to know at what time a text message is sent.

Re:Someone got $3000 bill for using iPhone in Euro

[TheLink]

Well a pat on the back to the both of you then ;).

Simpsons...

[Viceroy Potatohead]

"It was the best of times, it was the blerst of times---"

AH, you stupid monkeys, try again:

"Item:270008 Date:2007/04/06 Time:19:27:32 To/From:Data Transfer Type:...."

I don't think the naysayers are really seeing the potential of this billing format.

Re:Someone got $3000 bill for using iPhone in Euro

[KanSer]

It seems like in the age of mobile data usage that simple data odometers, if you will, should be in a phone's tools sections just like alarm clocks and tip calculators...

I use a dinky phone with an unlimited data plan but do still appreciate the few programs that have KB counters for you. Google Maps for Phones is a good example.

Re:Someone got $3000 bill for using iPhone in Euro

[Fulcrum of Evil]

Yeah, me and Phil, we're like this ||.

Over 300 pages...

[ushac]

I remember reading some time ago about someone here in Sweden who ordered a "detailed" bill from his/her telco, not knowing it would include every GPRS connection. The phone in question was set to check for new email every 5min so the bill ended up being over 300 pages long! In fact it was so big that it had to be retreived at the local post office - it was too large to fit in the mail box.

The icing on the cake thought was that the telco (Tele2) was at the time running a big advertising campaign with the slogan "The company that brings you small bills." :) Of course, even though the bill itself was over 300 pages, the charge was only something like 60kr (about $9). Probably less than the postage fee for the bill...

Re:Someone got $3000 bill for using iPhone in Euro

[Anonymous Coward]

Can we please lay this moronic "x much?" cliche to rest now?

Re:Someone got $3000 bill for using iPhone in Euro

[LiquidFire_HK]

So does links. It even has a graphical mode that can work with a framebuffer or X.

iPhone teflon

[aapold]

Contrary to earlier belief, it is apparently possible to bash the iPhone online without becoming a net pariah, providing you make it clear that whatever flaw you are bashing is 100% AT&T's fault.

T-Mobile's "Bill that keeps on giving"

[Edoko]

My last T-mobile bill was 135 pages long. According to their records, on June 16th at around 2:30 in the afternoon, I started to call myself 11 times per minute, constantly, for days and days. Eventually, my minutes ran out. At that point, T-Mobile was charging 35 center per call. But since there were 11 calls per minute, then were charging 35 cents for each fractional minute, and thus 35 cents 11 times per minute, for hours and days on end. The bill came to around $1,350 dollars and they are now checking it to "see if the calls are valid." Also, there is a recently published story that an iPhone user who travelled to Europe came back with a $3,000 AT&T bill because the Euro-trash companies were charging .20 cents per kilobyte, which is about $20 per web page to download to the iPhone.

In retrospect, it all seems fairly normal. Our phone companies work about as well as our health insurance companies. Which is to say, they don't work very well, and when they get a chance, they gouge the consumer.

Re:T-Mobile's "Bill that keeps on giving"

[necro81]

because the Euro-trash companies were charging .20 cents per kilobyte

Are you sure you don't mean 0.20 $/kb, or 0.20 euro/kb? This mixup between dollars and cents is the same thing that got Verizon very publicly humiliated for not recognizing the difference.

Unlike Verizon, I wish you no ridicule, so I hope you accept this comment gently.

Re:T-Mobile's "Bill that keeps on giving"

[Edoko]

Whether Euro or dollars, it was too much.

Re:T-Mobile's "Bill that keeps on giving"

[porcupine8]

I think the question is whether you mean a fifth of a dollar/euro (20 cents) or a fifth of a cent, which is what you wrote.

Re:T-Mobile's "Bill that keeps on giving"

[Anonymous Coward]

The bill came to around $1,350 dollars and they are now checking it to "see if the calls are valid." I got a water bill for $585,000 one time. I forget how many gallons they say I used in a month, but if that much water had actually flowed through my meter, half the town would have collapsed into a sinkhole or something.

Water companies are smarter than phone companies. I took it to the office, and the lady behind the desk laughed, then charged me some nominal amount based on typical usage or something. Ten minutes, plus drive time. I bet you'll be six months getting T-Mobile to pull its head out of its ass, and in the meantime, you'll start getting calls from a collection agency.

Apple Owners are Huge!

[PHAEDRU5]

Well, their carbon footprints, anyway.

You cant just "optimize"

[unity100]

Page ends up to be what the client/supervisor wants. If they want stuff on the page, they have them put there. Even if you work your butt over optimizing them, you still find pages that are considerable in size.

ditto

[unity100]

except a few million small businesses worth around a few billion running on oscommerce / creloaded.

Re:ditto

[edittard]

To put it another way, Eat shit, millions (or billions) of flies can't be wrong. The fact that these alleged businesses are, on average, only worth a grand speaks volumes.

Re:ditto

[unity100]

on the other side, popularity is what has made volkswagen beetle, ipod, ibm pc compatibles, ms windows and many what they are today.

Re:ditto

[Anonymous Coward]

Popular != good. I'd expect a programmer to understandf logic. But then you aren't a programmer, are you? More like a PHP shill.

Re:ditto

[unity100]

the world doesnt revolve in the way programmers, or any other profession/artist/intellectuals wish or think it should. the market, people dictate what goes forth and what stays based upon their choices. and history shows no group can force their thoughts on people for a long time.

"php iz lame","xxxyyyyzzzz language has much better syntax and oop support and blah blah" - oh well, these MIGHT be true, but the harsh, real truth is that the people will go with whatever they prefer, and final decision lies with them.

no im not a programmer alone. im also a businessman of some sorts to the extent that i am able to reckon what the market says, rules, regardless of anything anyone thinks.

Re:ditto

[ivan256]

Nothing like a poor craftsman other than to blame the tools.

It is possible, easy even, to write quality, high performance, easily maintainable web applications in PHP. There are few languages where it is truly difficult.

Sure, it's got library inconsistencies, and quirks. It's also frequently the best tool for the job (tied for first anyway).

Few things piss me off more than programmers/engineers who would rather bitch about the tools than to just solve a problem and get the job done.

Re:Someone got $3000 bill for using iPhone in Euro

[roedelius]

I agree, nobody in their right mind uses PHP.

Just the idiots behind Wikipedia, Flickr, Digg, Wordpress, Drupal, etc.

Re:Someone got $3000 bill for using iPhone in Euro

[juanfe]

Oh, and you think it's a joke...

An episode of "This American Life" provides a recorded version of an excrutiating series of phone calls between a hapless radio producer and MCI reps who did not understand the difference between .01 dollars and .01 cents and why his being quoted cents and being charged dollars made him upset.

Lovely.

Re:Someone got $3000 bill for using iPhone in Euro

[juanfe]

... and I got my stories mixed up. Still a horrible phone call issue, but the .01 dollar and .01 cent was another person whose recording I can't find any more. Oh well.

AT&T, Narus, IP traffic data mining

[ekimminau]

Interesting related side bars:

Deep Packet Inspection and Net Neutrality
http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/07/26/16 8202&from=rss
The AT&T Whistleblower's Evidence
http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/05/18/16 26248
newbies Guide to Detecting the NSA
http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2006/06/the_newbi es_gui.html?entry_id=1510938
NarusInsight Secure Suite
http://narus.com/products/index.html
NarusInsight Secure Suite (NSS) enables carriers and service providers to detect any network attack, abuse or behavioral anomaly in real time and at core speeds, and then direct a variety of actions: to raise an alarm, send an SNMP trap, or even mitigate the attack. Traditional edge-based security solutions are insufficient for Next Generation Networks and IMS because of their limited visibility into network traffic and elements. They are aware only of partial information of traffic flowing through the single link of the network they are attached or listening to, and their basic statistical algorithms are able to detect attacks only at their last stage, for example large changes in the volume of traffic.

If you have 52 pages of what appears to be "garbage" data, I can promise you that the garbage is only filtered. They know the complete URL, what time you started loading it, the name, type and size of image you loaded from the page, how long it took to transfer, the bandwidtth you used to transfer it, etc, etc.
It is only "garbage data" on your bill.

Re:Someone got $3000 bill for using iPhone in Euro

[UbuntuDupe]

Hm, if milibits existed, what would they be? Tiny clues to discern whether the bit is 1 or 0? Like, milibit #1 says "1 if milibit 528 is 0, 0 otherwise" and only after collecting all 1000 milibits could you resolve whether the bit is 1 or 0?

I'll leave that to the Claude Shannons of the world...

Text browsers

[Thomas Shaddack]

elinks, even better choice.

Re:Someone got $3000 bill for using iPhone in Euro

[Mr_Silver]

That's why you surf the lighter-weight versions of pages: http://slashdot.org/palm/ gives a front page that weighs only 8 KB. A page view at those rates is a dime, instead of $25.00

I'm biased, but I would suggest this instead of the Palm version. You need to set it up on a server (after some idiot abused the public copy I had for people) but it does present Slashdot far better.

To be fair, it is at a little more cost, as the current front page weighs in at about 24KB - but better comments and navigation and all can be configured to not be shown.

Re:Someone got $3000 bill for using iPhone in Euro

[Neoprofin]

It's a pricy lesson, but I can't blame AT&T (as much as I love to, even though my DSL service is more reliable than ever) for this. He bought a $600 phone, was given a proce quote before he left, wracked up a huge bill through his own ignorance, and then cried fowl when they tried to collect on it. Is it fair that they have it locked down? Not nice, but fair.

Was their billing fair? They have better rates for blackberries, but that's not an issue, it's not like they charged him without his knowledge, gave him false estimates, or anything of that sort.

He got lucky that AT&T let him out of it. There are plenty of people in America who have wrung up huge SMS bills, or blown thousands on ringtones and background and they aren't getting out of it. The route is all the same, carelessness and ignorance.

Save a tree!

[Supergibbs]

Paperless billing! Especially here at Slashdot, I am sure we can all figure out http://www.wireless.att.com/my-account

OCR?

[phorm]

I've often considered starting a project to make OCR systems that would be able to read the bills of common vendors for cellular service, etc. It would work best if you had a feed-style scanner (as opposed to a flatbed where you would have to insert each page once per side... not fun with 52 pages), but it could look for inconsistencies like:

- Billing during your non-billable minutes (e.g. free evenings/weekends)
- Billing on incoming calls (for those with free incoming)
- Billing on calls from others on the same carrier (for those with free companycompany calling: you would need to input which friends use the same telco)
- Incorrect tabulation of minutes/costs
- Billing long-distance on calls made in-area

As well as just highlighting suspicious charges.

I recently had an issue with my cellular carrier. They happily send me a bill showing the minutes I'm being charged for (aka in excess of my 150 weekday/1000 evening/weekend+free incoming+free in-carrier calling), but they do NOT send me an accounting of the calls that used up the minutes in my plan. That means that I'm forced to trust their honesty in tabulating when my initial minutes are used up. *yeah right*
I'm got a new bill coming in the mail, this one describing when and where the minutes of my plan were used up... it'll be interesting to see if there are any discrepancies.

Some East European Companies Tend to Do That

[AiToyonsNostril]

My family's cell bills point out every. Single. Call. Even those within said person's free network. 6-7 pages easily, printed on both sides. Maybe Apple outsourced billing to Bulgaria.

PAY ONLINE!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Another Retarded Post!

Helio is the same way but if you pay your bill online you never see the pages but to some the detail is important. I cant believe this story made it to slashdot. What fodder.

What they're telling you...

[sabt-pestnu]

with a 52 page itemized list of $0.00 entries is... ... that they're tracking this information.

What their internal records have is almost certain to be much more than what they show on the bill.

Got your anonymizer fired up?

Re:5... 4... 3... 2... 1...

[cliveholloway]

"Not sure why it's anything to do with *Apple* at all."

Um. Who the fuck do you think decided to only let their product only work with one carrier then?

Xbox Large?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's XBOX HUEG.

Lurk moar.

Re:Someone got $3000 bill for using iPhone in Euro

[drew]

Honestly, I don't see what's so outrageous about that, other than that AT&T ended up waiving the charge. This isn't a case of being misquoted, or any other error or wrongdoing on AT&T's part. The guy new the rates up front, and presumably knew that he couldn't put a European SIM card in the phone. The fact that he doesn't know anything about data rates or sizes is his own fault, and not any fault of the phone provider (especially if he really is a web developer as he claims). Sorry, but I think AT&T should have told him to suck it up and offered to put him on a payment plan.

Yes, it really IS expensive

[Jon Kay]

It's been a joke of mine that it costs the phone companies more to bill you for a phone call than it does for them to provide the phone call

That might be literally true. Back when there was a long debate going on about how Internet billing should go (early 90s), ISTR one well-known network researcher, Jon Postel, guy said that phone compenies really were mostly paying for billing services. Of course, that was 15 years ago.

He, of cours, was a big advocate of the mostly-simple billing you see today, and his email on the subject on an important mailing list is probably why it is mostly like that. Simple Internet billing is slowly slipping away, but I don't ever anticipate being sent a bill that enumerates every data packet sent.

Re:Someone got $3000 bill for using iPhone in Euro

[Dogtanian]

Hm, if milibits existed, what would they be? Tiny clues to discern whether the bit is 1 or 0? Like, milibit #1 says "1 if milibit 528 is 0, 0 otherwise" and only after collecting all 1000 milibits could you resolve whether the bit is 1 or 0? I'll leave that to the Claude Shannons of the world... Great! You've turned a somewhat funny tongue-in-cheek joke at some minor mis-capitalisation into a potentially very interesting discussion. I was trying to figure out myself what a millibit would be; your suggestion is pretty neat.

If ever there was a justification for an offtopic sub-thread, this is it :-)

Re:Someone got $3000 bill for using iPhone in Euro

[UbuntuDupe]

Oh, glad you liked it! :-)

See, the reason I wanted to figure that out is because I'm interested in nomenclature generally. (Or interface design, even more generally.) I figure every standardized term has to have an opposite.

For example, at my job, I learned that the term for the label on a part on a drawing that gives all of its specifications, is termed the "hard call-out". Well, the first thing I thought was, "well, what would a soft call-out be?" I then found that often there would be a part label that didn't give any information except what you'd need to find the hard call-out. So I suggested that those should be called "soft call-outs". (Unfortunately, decades of aircraft design standards don't get changed because of my clever suggestions, so to have any chance of being understood, I have to call them "part references".) Lazier companies sometimes had even sketchier call-outs, where they'd point to a part and just say its general name, without even a number I could use to look it up elsewhere. I called those "liquid call-outs" and then even vaguer ones would be "vapor call-outs".

Yes, I'm a geek. Aren't we all?

Re:5... 4... 3... 2... 1...

[Space cowboy]

And choice of carrier has *what* exactly to do with choice of billing method ?

Apple choose their carrier. Great. You expect them to then dictate to the carrier how that carrier ought to do business ?

Assuming ...
    - you're employed, I guess you chose to work wherever you do - so you have a contract with your employer.
      - that you have a bedroom

Does your employer tell you what colour to paint your bedroom ? Or is that nothing to do with your employer (it being your life to live and choices to make), and therefore a complete non-sequiteur vis-a-vis your working life ?

Jeez.

Simon

Massive phone bills

[freezingweasel]

I used to work for a dot-com'ish company best described as a e-mail mailing list for phone calls. If you had a little league game to cancel, one call blasted the info (and an ad) to all the parents, trying up to 3 times with a wait between attempts.

The company grew from home use (paid the bills) to phone spam (wildly profitable, at least at the time) racked up quite a bill while sending any message (within the owner's discretion) for a fee.

We had line item billing... UPS or FedEx delivered our bills, which came in 6 or 7 large boxes about the size that you used to get dot-matrix-rip-off-the-page-when-you're-done paper in. Given we were a small fish, I'd hate to see what bigger players got.

Re:5... 4... 3... 2... 1...

[cliveholloway]

I think you need to call the analogy police :)

"And choice of carrier has *what* exactly to do with choice of billing method ?"

The choice of carrier implies that you are stuck with that carrier's billing method.

"You expect them to then dictate to the carrier how that carrier ought to do business ?"

Well, many companies have business relationships, and the sensible ones make sure that their partners don't make them look like idiots for choosing them.

"Does your employer tell you what colour to paint your bedroom ? Or is that nothing to do with your employer (it being your life to live and choices to make), and therefore a complete non-sequiteur vis-a-vis your working life ?"

Except, if this was a true analogy, the employer would be forcing me to buy paint from one particular store, and that store (although it has a wide range of products) has a really shitty and overpriced paint department.

Apple chose to do an exclusive lock in for the iPhone. They can shoulder some of the blame for choosing such an incompetent carrier.

free now not mean free forever..accountancy sez so

[Anonymous Coward]

Just because the data use is supposedly free now does not mean it will remain free. Years ago there was a debate about unlimited
calls for home phones. Telcos wanted to implement cost per call policies and effected them even though they were denied this by
state regulators. They did so by recording every call you made and then seemingly stupidly charging you zero for the accounted calls.
See the mechanism to charge you money is there. All they have to do is change the charges from nothing to ....something. The bills are not 'stupid', but cleverly rigged to screw you and all of you on some future day certain.

SMS pr0n

[rustcycle]

At least with the details of my bill I can prove I only SMS teh naughtiness with my fiance during my lunch hour...

Incoming calls on the bill

[Matthew Bafford]

T-Mobile lists incoming calls with date, time, originating number, duration, and (if applicable) details of how it was classified/billed. For example, from my bill:

6/19/07 Incoming 2:50 PM 803-ZZZ-ZZZZ 4 -
6/20/07 Columbia, SC 7:08 AM 803-ZZZ-ZZZZ 33 -

tree killers

[vonFinkelstien]

AT&T had better watch out for Greenpeace.

"The NSA's Eavesdropping at AT&T"

[Anonymous Coward]

Watch the episode "The NSA's Eavesdropping at AT&T" at this link:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/homefront/ view/

Any company that decides to cooperate with the NSA must keep extensive records and is forbidden by law from notifying anyone that they are keeping those records. Just a theory: if the company simply provides those [extensive] records to the individual then the individual is notified *and* the company has not violated the law.