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Verizon vs. the Needham Fire Department
netbuzz writes "At issue is whether — or not — there was a minor fire in a house on Pine Grove Street in Needham, Mass., caused by a Verizon employee drilling through an electrical main. Everyone agrees that whatever happened — or didn't happen — was indeed the fault of the Verizon employee; it's "fire or no fire" that is at issue. Verizon says no fire, not even smoke. The Needham Fire Department begs to differ. New eye-witness reports are emerging ... and it's not looking good for Verizon."
Believe it or not, this happens more often than you might think. The only difference is: this one got national attention somehow.
The game.
Verizon burns customer.
Since when do you beleive a company that would get sued over the professional firefighters- it's just commmon sense, then you add the fact that people saw the damn thing. What's m ore interesting is the fact that verizon doesn't claim its not their fault- so they're accepting blame for something but not telling you what....?
Verizon technical workers are careless and unqualified?
I'm shocked!
Things really aren't looking good for that employee.
Time to start updating the old resume...
Is this even worth being on Slashdot? Employee screws up, causes problems. International news?
Crap, several of our T1 lines were cut last week by a government employee who "forgot" to get a map of buried cables before digging. It cost us a heck of a lot more than a house (OT and moving of computer equipment from one location to another)... and that is just our business. I am not even sure it got local coverage.
See my journal for slashdot ID's by year. Mine created in 2005. http://slashdot.org/journal/289875/slashdot-ids-by-year
So there may or may not have been a fire but the tech definitely drilled through a mains cable. Don't they carry instruments for that? Something which picks up 60Hz AC?
In any event it should be SOP to drill a shallow hole at first and check the cavity for cables before drilling further. Thats how I would do it anyway.
http://michaelsmith.id.au
Maybe all the Die Hard 4.0 previews have left be numb, but this story is difficult for me to get excited about.
What's next? "Verizon Employee caught stealing Stationary: Box of blue pens missing. Only cap left."
..there was no fire, just a few flames and smoke. technically, this is no fire. you're totally overreacting. it's like you'd say that black clouds and falling waterdrops from above would mean rain, dumbass!
I thought this would not even merit a place in the Firehose. Come on guys, if you keep posting such rubbish, I have to log out and do some work.
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
One of our new techs was installing a triple play at a Needham home (they're selling like hotcakes, btw).
Perhaps not the best turn of phrase to use, all things considered...
/Verizon waves hand This is the not the fire you are looking for...
Whilst of course it would be best practice to check for a mains line before drilling, it's most likely the electrical wire was somewhere it shouldn't have been. Here in the UK such wires should be in line with light switches etc and never go diagonally etc. Id imagine/hope similar rules apply in here...
I think the [MS Word] paperclip is a great idea. - Miguel de Icaza
"Who cares?"
I mean seriously, this didn't even make the local news.
Anyone want to post a front-page story about the plastic Dasani water bottle I found in my front lawn this morning? I feel it was tossed there from a passing car. My girlfriend thinks it was blown there from across the street. I told her people litter all the time on the street in front of our house, so they probably just tossed it on the front lawn.
FWIW, there was no fire in my house when Verizon installed my ONT. Me, Verizon and the town all agree on that.
For those who don't care to read the fine article, Verizon's official position is, "Our bad, but no smoke, and no fire."
I'm serious, that's a quote.
-Peter
Verizon guy shorts the home's electric main, it sparks like hell inside the wall leaving burns and smoke comes out of the meter where the fuse blew.
Argument that its a fire: things got burned.
Argument that its not a fire: apparantly no secondary ignition. The burns were evidently from the sparks and the fuse melting.
As for the fireman saying, "if there's flames..." It take a few minutes for the fire truck to arrive. If there were flames when they got there, they'd be substantial enough that there wouldn't be any argument over whether there was a fire. His claim of the existance of flames can't be based on primary observation by either him or his staff.
I can see why Verizon cares about the difference. If there was a fire, that's a compelling reason for the county to change the ordinances governing the certifications their installers are required to hold. If there were just some sparks with the protection on the electrical circuits preventing a fire as designed then there's no reason to change the ordinances.
Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
The submitter ("When not blogging, I am a Network World news editor and write the 'Net Buzz column.") is just linking to his crappy blog, which is just whoring his employer.
I'm sure "SlashdotMedia" will improve on all the wonders that Dice Holdings blessed us all with
The roof the roof is on fire we don't need no water...................Oh wait
It was only a matter of time before one of these morons drilled through an electrical line.
There are a couple reports of smoke, one pinpointing the electric meter. And a neighbor reported electric power flickering. Both of these suggest to me there was an arcing fault in the electric service feed between the meter and the first main breaker/fuse in the electrical panel for the house.
These points along the electrical service wiring are critical because there is no overcurrent protection suitable to shut them off. The amount of current such an arc cause draw will be substantial, but it won't always be more than all the homes sharing the same transformer could draw combined at peak loads. So that fuse leading into the transformer isn't likely to stop it. It is intended to stop a short on the high voltage windings inside the transformer. These fuses are intentionally set high to avoid false outages.
Today's electrical codes require substantial physical protection of the wiring between the meter and main panel, such as enclosure in conduit for short distances, and more significant protection for longer distances. But lots of older wiring doesn't have this protection.
Telephone and cable service also needs to come in next to the power for proper grounding purposes.
My biggest concern is the technician doing the installation not having the proper training to work around the power connections.
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
There is no doubt when something is on fire. We deal with all kinds of incidents. We're a dirt poor volunteer department and even we have thermal cameras that will distinguish the merely hot from something on fire, even through walls. We also have infrared surface thermometers so we know where to cut the hole in the wall.
I've also seen it happen that something was smoking hot until the access hole is cut and when the air gets in it bursts into flame. Particularly in walls and behind panels. I doubt the Verizon techs were close enough to see when the fire department got there.
The witnesses said they saw white, puffy smoke. That usually means the fire is out. It also indicates there was a fire to put out.
Just amazes me that the truth is so hard for so many organizations these days.
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
An installer screws up? Gee whiz that never happens. PR drone spins something? How odd! Is there a debate on the meaning of the word fire? Does anybody care?
6F 9E A9 1E 96 9F 74 27 ED B8 81 6D 0C 4E 1E 78
My other Sig is a 229.
Verizon was installing the Fiber Optic line into my house and in the process they dented the gutter. The Verizon employee said that he was sorry and to just contact his boss at a phone number he supplied us. It has been 4 months with repeated phone calls and still no check. Although this is not as serious as a fire but they refuse to pay the $250 or so in damages so now we have to take them to small claims court over the problem. so it would seem that my case is not the only case where they screwed up and tried to deny the fact.
Lois Griffin: Huh. God, you're dumb. Thank God for that ass.
If at first you don't succeed, call it version 1.0.
> Posted by CmdrTaco on 8:35 Wednesday 15 August 2007
> from the mever-had-that-problem-before dept.
If he's had the problem before, perhaps we could ask him how he
dealt with it.
.02 cents per damaged .00001 square foot of property!
If at first you don't succeed, call it version 1.0.
It's a question for their insurance company. Report the incedent, if your insurance rates go up THEN take verizon to court for the adjusted lifetime damages to an otherwise spotless insurance record plus the damage to the property plus a little extra because this is america dammit. If anyone will know the insurance people will know, it's their job.
On a similar note: if SUVs were safer they wouldn't pay more for insurance. Flame me, IDC, I'm AC
Seriously! ... You're kidding, right? ... Hello McFly.... I'm a professional FIRE Fighter... You'd think I'm qualified to tell if there's a fire or not.
Verizon: There was no fire
FireFighter: Yes there was a fire, I saw it
Verizon: And who are you to determine if there was a fire or not
FireFighter:
Verizon: No, because there was no fire.
FireFighter:
I will not give in to the terrorists. I will not become fearful.
...he'll come up with some common-sense restatement.
If the PR guy is smart, I'd suggest a factual statement of what occurred that simply omits any opinion on whether or not there was "a fire" which does not seem to be of any importance.
For example, something like, "Our technician cut a wire, causing a short-circuit, sparks, and smoke visible to passers-by. Verizon called the Needham fire department was called immediately. The technician is OK. The problem was quickly contained. Nothing outside the electrical panel ignited. Verizon takes full responsibility and will pay for repair of the minor damage that resulted."
A great time to have done this would have been slightly before the silly story got posted to Slashdot.
Sometimes the best spin is no spin. In fact, make that "often." In fact, make that "always." Honesty is the best policy.
"How to Do Nothing," kids activities, back in print!
Uh... I'm at work in Needham right now. I've also got Verizon DSL and a Verizon cellphone so I'd guess that this story is more relevant to me than almost anyone else on Slashdot. My questions is: if this doesn't matter to me, who does it matter to?
With today's technology IMO this is inexcuseable.
There is no reason that a city can't create a system such that the workers carry with them a GPS-enabled mapping device that can show them EXACTLY what is under them ANYWHERE.
In fact such a system should be federally mandated as mandatory. I hear way too many stories like this.
They must keep hitting the cable they use to carry my DSL signal because it was useless most of Monday and seems to choke regularly at approx 10pm. I assume they send out a night crew to drill into cables around then.
It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
My dad always said - Follow the money and you will find the truth.
Consider the following proposition: The Fire Dept wants to call it a fire so its not logged as a false alarm and save the homeowner from getting a service bill. Verizon does not want to call it a fire because of bad PR, potential lawsuits, etc.
Those guys are all contractors, paid by the number of installs completed. They DO NOT CARE about quality or design, just "getting complete" so they can get paid. They will take the shortest, fastest path to the checkbox saying they are done unless you are there to make them do otherwise.
Most people in most jobs are not quality focused, and therefore need to be supervised in order to make sure that the job is well done.
But Herr Heisenberg, how does the electron know when I'm looking?
All of this could have been avoided if he had only drilled .002 meters to the left.
What is the big deal? Every commercial I see has about 350+ people walking around. If there "was" a "fire", can you imagine how big the Chinese Water Drill line would have been. FIRE=out in seconds. It's the Network...
Navy Tim www.navytim.com
Funny, but years ago, the Needham fire chief used to run a backhoe business on the side and sure enough came to my neighborhood (near Needham) once and dug through the gas line on a neighbor's property! So the fire chief at time didn't know enough to call dig safe!
/Ed
a Diggbot.
damaged by dogma
"If there were flames when they got there, they'd be substantial enough that there wouldn't be any argument over whether there was a fire."
:)
My wife used to design sprinkler systems and just from the earbashing* I've received I know that's totally wrong. A fire can remain smoldering for hours, and burst into flame when it's finally exposed.
* Checking into a hotel with a fire protection engineer is an education.
, but it would reduce the severity of an arc-flash accident.
It only takes ~1/10 of an ampere through your body to kill you, which is practically nothing compared to the current rating of a breaker that would be used to protect a service drop. Circuit breaker or not, if you become a current path to ground, you are going to get a shock at the very least.
Remember "News for Nerds, Stuff that Matters"? Help make it a reality again! http://soylentnews.org
About 5 years ago some construction crew cut a fiber line downtown Vancouver which cut off Harbour Center or at least quie a few of the ISP's/Webhost.
About a year earlier in Burnaby a construction crew hit a gas line about 100 feet away from our offices. They closed off the whole block till BC arrived and fixed the hole.
by TheSpoom (715771) Uncaring Linux user here. I have nothing to add to this but please continue. *munches popcorn*
I guess you could say that Verizon's FiOS Internet service is blazingly fast...
Founded during the great pork shortage of 1680.
There is nothing in this story about underground utilities. This is about an installation technician drilling a hole into the wall of a house and hitting a wire.
There REALLY is no excuse for this since an AC finder tool is relatively inexpensive and readily available.
Compaq had laptop batteries that would sometimes catch fire. The legal department demanded that it was not a fire and further problems of such be referred to as: "Thermal incidents with visual indicators" I think that's what happened here. Everyone can go home now and enjoy thier day.
A civil engineer friend told me he was called to inspect a leak in a multi-story downtown building. In the top floor mechanical area, he found a huge hole blasted in the concrete, and twisted metal wreckage of tension bars peeling up from it. The hole wasn't empty, though. It has a cell mast support in it. The building owner had leased space to a cell company, and they had drilled through the concrete, and in doing so had cut apart the sinews holding the building together. "It must have sounded like an explosion -- there's no way they could have not known they did this," he said. The owner checked his contract, and noticed he had signed away *all* right to sue for damages.
This is no story. Read the post here and gawk at the pretty pictures.
l icyblog/ericrabe9/347/fios-is-hot-but-not-that-hot .aspx
http://policyblog.verizon.com/policyblog/blogs/po
How in the world does that happen? Either there was a fire or there was not a fire, there is no gray area there.
It seems to me that some people beleive that you must have fire to have smoke.. that is not true.. I have let the smoke out of many electronics without fire.. If the fire department had time to respond and yet there is no evidence of a consumed or partialy cosumed fuel source then I would say that a fire did not exist. Unless you assume that a electrical spark is called a fire. Also the Fire chief claiming that the man is lucky to be alive, is just talking out one side of his mouth. Is the Fire cheif and electrition? If the Circuit was 110v then the chances of death are pretty slim, however if it was 220v and he happened to drill through both insulators, then death could be a real possiblility. I think the fire chief may have a little "I saved your life and property, praise me!" complex and verizon is just trying to cover their ass.
Ad eundum quo nemo ante iit!
Ground Penetrating Sonar (requisite "cat got your tongue" redundancy)
I first heard it from an ex-Navy guy; in his version the Navy's approach to securing a computer is to tie it down so it won't bounce around when you ship it. (The Marines did armed guards, the air force still did a purchase order, and I don't think he mentioned the Army, but nobody did what we think of as securing computers.) Dave was _much_ neater than I was at handling cables - they'd get stowed carefully in drawers, or fastened to the rack with cable tie instead of hanging around like spaghetti. He was pretty good at _actual_ computer security as well.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
- Verizon employee makes a mistake, causes damage to home
- Verizon accepts responsibility and steps up to foot the bill for repairs
That's it. That's the entire story. So why all this focus on whether or not there were flames, smoke, or neither? What does it matter??I'm surprised so many people here don't understand how big the issue here is. Here we have a corporate mouthpiece, John Bonomo, caught telling an outright lie about something as specific as a fire. (Yes - I'll take the word of a firefighter over that of PR flack who probably didn't even see the incident or visit afterwards. Big surprise right? )
The important thing here is the opportunity to teach corporate PR a lesson about the new dynamics of human culture now that it has been internet enabled. If we publically discuss the premise created by this event: "John Bonomo is a lying cheating scumbag." it create a situation where people will question any information that comes from that individual in the future. If he did lie, then of course he should never be trusted again. But only if his name becomes heavily linked to the behaivor. And of course other people will take the other viewpoint which will also be linked to. To be sure that his name is linked to this issue you have to mention his name in your text.
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/fire
...
1) the phenomenon of combustion manifested in light, flame, and heat
2) fuel in a state of combustion...
3) a destructive burning...
Now how many of you have arced electrical wires?
I have done so many times
Wow item #1. (flash of light, heat from the arch, and flame in the form of the arch)
Wow item #2. (fuel did burn, the wires insulation had to be at least singed from the arch)
Wow item #3. (the wires burned in half)
Guess what... By definition there was a fire.
Now did the fire spread from the electrical system to other combustibles?
Most likely not.
So the F.D. Says Fire
Verizon says no fire
I would have to say a very small electrical fire that resulted in the need for the FD to open the wall and ensure there was no smoldering embers.
tomato or tomato
PR Person = Professional Rambling Person
-- I am the NRA, enough said...
Power from two grids/substations and backup diesel geni to boot... Never going to get that lucky.. Maybe EMP??? Better get to work.. :)
Whenever I help out a friend with some networking job I explain why I won't drill holes in their place, loan them my 18" drill bit and ask them to line somebody up to drill the holes. I do not want to be responsible for burning down a building or piercing a water pipe.
"Clean up the air and treat the animals fair" - Captain Beefheart
i hope so, what do you want tto do without power, ups and generators are for the servers, not the workstations of the staff, so after 2 hours they jsut send everybody that cannot work without a computer home(that is 95% of the staff) why pay us doing nothing when you can jsut not pay us
Live Electronic Music
Verizon is busted..
At my last job my company needed to reorganize some of the walls of it's cubicle farm. It was a pretty common occurrence as the company was experiencing a lot of growth in a short period of time. The cubicles were the pretty standard reconfigurable gray walls and could be rearranged to however you needed, but the end of it still needed to be anchored to the wall.
:-) But up to that point we had had no issue with the contractor.
I believe the company always contracted out to the same people to make the needed changes. Well, on one of the days the contractor had sent some people to rearrange the cubicles and among them was a guy who was new on the job. He needed to anchor one of the cubicle walls to a spot on the wall and began drilling. The drilling was really rough going and he was having a time of it (should have been his first and biggest clue). By the time he drilled through there was a nice "psssshhhhh" sound coming from the wall. The genius had just drilled through a gas main and was lucky he hadn't killed us all with a spark from the metal on metal drilling.
So, what does he do? He stands up, slowly walks down the hall, and out the front door. He doesn't tell a soul. He doesn't warn people, he just... leaves.
One of the other employees notices the sound, the smell, and the headache she is getting and runs and tells the secretary who has everyone evacuate the building and and who calls the fire department.
I don't know what happened to the schmuck, or to our companies relationship with the contractor, but I did get to go home at lunch that day. So for me it all worked out in the end.
All it takes is one lazy or incompetent employee to make a company look bad.
Ahahahahahahahhahah.
/. and this whole thing is really funny to me. First you've got the over active blogger (Paul) who's trying to badmouth Verzon and make a mountain out of a molehill (I have no idea why, probably was treated badly by Verizon in the past), and then you've got this marketing guy trying to spin it into a positive for FiOS.
Just wandered in off
Both are over the top but I can't decide who is more annoying...
Eww, wait a minute. I bet those pics are doctored, I can't see any electrical wires at all. Verizon is pulling the wool over our eyes! Who you gonna believe? A marketing joker or a two-bit blogger???
Ahahahahahahahhahahahahahah
So you think it;ll stay up on the verizon blog??
TFA, goes on and on about why he things Verizon is being less than truthful. However the Fire Dept has a number of reasons to not be truthful as well...For example they might have overreacted and sent out multiple trucks and now need to justify the expense. Also the property owner and his friends certainly have an interest in making the damage seem worse (since they'll be compensated more).
I'm certainly not saying Verizon is telling the truth, but all aspects need to be considered before rushing to judgment. The article was very one sided.