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How Pirated Software Impacts Free Software

jmglov writes "Dave Gutteridge has an unusual take on why people are not interested in saving money by using a free-as-in-beer OS like Linux or *BSD: because Windows is free. At least, that is an all-too-common perception, thanks to bundling and piracy. Bundling is a well-known problem to the adoption of open source operating systems, so Dave takes a look at the piracy issue in depth. His title may offend you, but his well-written article will most likely get you thinking hard about the question, 'how much does Windows cost?'"

97 of 530 comments (clear)

  1. Very true.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I'm going to post this anonymously for obvious reasons. I have a few Windows XP licenses, but they are all OEM XP Home/Media Center licences that came with the computers. Those systems were so crapified by the OEMs and/or in such a bad state (my wifes computer was a mess when I took control over it) that even reinstalling the OEM version would have been a major headache.

    I help exactly one person with an OEM XP Home machine and it gives more headaches than my custom installs. My custom installs are based on a Corporate Edition Windows XP Pro. Those never give problems unless it is hardware. Simply said: Windows XP Pro Corporate^WPirate Edition gives me better *value* for less money. It's the only software I pirate: all other programs are either free as in beer (iTunes) or free as in Freedom (OpenOffice, The Gimp, Firefox, Thunderbird.....)

    Just to appease those that say I should switch to Linux: I'm typing this right now on Ubuntu Linux, but I have a long way to go to convert all machines that I maintain.

    1. Re:Very true.... by QBasicer · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I've seen many people just loose their OEM disk (or just never got one). How should those people be handled? Is Piracy still piracy if it's the same version as what was there before?

      --
      x86, oh yes, I'm pro.
    2. Re:Very true.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Well, that's one of the common problems. (I'm the AC from the parent post) My wife did not have the OEM CD anymore, if she ever had one. The XP Home license sticker is still on the machine, but now it runs Win XP Pro in another language (it's English now)

      I'd be willing to bet that Microsoft, the BSA and the court systems are going to rule this installation "pirated" and I can't blame them. However, what was I to do? This machine was reinstalled way before Ubuntu became viable. (I reinstalled it in 2004 or so, I think...)

      Many new computers don't even come with CDs anymore: the waiter in my favourite restaurant has an Acer and one day we came to talk about his computer. A quite nice system but he has tons of problems. I suggested a reinstall, but he doesn't have the CDs. I'd say I'd help him if he finds the CD. I'm not going to hand out copies of my Corporate Edition CD to other people. I don't want it to get blacklisted by Microsoft.

    3. Re:Very true.... by Lord+Artemis · · Score: 3, Interesting

      In the first case, I would attempt to retrieve the current key from their system using any of several freely available tools, then reinstall with any OEM disk (I believe this works). For the second, the disk is easily retrievable by placing a phone call to the manufacturer (I know Dell works like this, I assume others do as well).

      --
      Air is just like fog, but it's not gray.
    4. Re:Very true.... by jawtheshark · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Isn't something "Terminal" often a big bad virus/malware infection? For many people it is and they do not know how to back up their data. USB disk or not.... I have heard of people that lost the first three years of their childs digital photos due to a "computer failure". I bet it was a big bad virus infection and they just replaced the machine without even trying to save it.

      Look, I've found a P-IV 1.9GHz/512Meg RAM in the dumpster a while ago.... Completely functional.... W2k fully infected.... A clean Linux install and I was working with it again. Sure, it isn't the fastest machine, but it's nothing to spit at either. The W2k license sticker was still on it too....

      But yes, I agree that it was bad advice from the tech to avoid mentioning backups. However, people have gotten used to losing data due to "Terminal Computer failure" or when buying a new system. It's just how computers are supposed to work... at least that's what they think.

      --
      Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
    5. Re:Very true.... by Cafe+Alpha · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I called Gateway in order to reinstall XP pro (that came with the machine - but the disk had been lost by the previous owner).

      No can do. I would have to pay $200+ for a replacement OEM disk (not even a real Windows disk by the way - you can't add foreign language support from the OEM image, you can't repair a damaged installation - it's just a fucking hard drive image).

      I still have the piece of paper with your license key and the hologram, I said. Not worth anything, they said. I called Microsoft, same answer.

      Luckily I had a Ghost backup. Ghost had crashed as it finished the last disk, but luckily the disk was readable. How likely is that? Crashed AFTER the the last sector wrote.

      My machine works again, but I still can't get Asian input support - the OEM never had that - joy!

    6. Re:Very true.... by StikyPad · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Everything has a cost. Linux generally costs me a lot of time -- more time than it's worth to me. If it ever becomes massively popular, I'd install it again, but as it stands there's little incentive for me to use it, and plenty of disincentive: from compatibility issues and poor hardware vendor support to the general PITA of learning the nuances of a particular version of a given distribution. The slow pace of change and universality of Windows may make things boring, but (to invoke the car analogy), there's something to be said for having the same set of controls everywhere and knowing those controls well, even if they aren't ideal (and Linux is far from ideal anyway in many respects, IMHO).

      I do like the robust nature of Linux, the ability to have multiple logins, and the endless possibility for customization, but those aren't things I need as much as the virtually endless array of high quality Windows software, vendor support for hardware, and the relatively limited Windows versioning that makes troubleshooting much, much easier. There's never a need for me to try to have multiple versions of compilers and libraries installed side-by-side; if I'm having a problem with a Windows application, it's never a peculiarity of a particular distribution (or version of a distribution) to blame*, and obviously there's never a need to reboot into Windows to use some application that doesn't have a Linux equivalent, or to play a game. I'm not wealthy, but I definitely have very limited time, which makes the decision easy for me.

      * Obviously there are issues with applications and major version changes in Windows, but it's typically much less of a problem, and an infrequent occurrence (albeit thanks in no small part to the unintended consequence of a glacial release schedule).

    7. Re:Very true.... by Mattintosh · · Score: 2, Funny

      Ghost had crashed as it finished the last disk, but luckily the disk was readable. How likely is that? Crashed AFTER the the last sector wrote.

      I'd say pretty darned likely. Every time I've ever run Ghost it does that. It must be buggy in the cleanup and exit code. The images are just fine, but Ghost dies with mysterious circumstances every time. Maybe that's why they call it Ghost.

    8. Re:Very true.... by Verteiron · · Score: 4, Informative

      Actually that doesn't always work. In fact, unless something has changed in the past couple of years, this -rarely- works. When I was doing this often, I found that the installed key would almost invariably fail to validate the OEM setup unless you had a copy of the XP OEM disc from that manufacturer. Same revision of XP, same everything except for the manufacturer. It got to the point that we had to make copies of the OEM discs for each manufacturer just to do re-installs.

      --
      End of lesson. You may press the button.
    9. Re:Very true.... by ShaggyIan · · Score: 5, Informative

      They usually charge extra for the disk anymore. They now like to use a separate partition on the HDD to store the restore image. It's frequently accessible via a boot menu.

      I've never gotten a good answer about what's supposed to be done when the HDD dies out of warranty.

      Depending on your make/model or bitchiness level, many of the OEM's will ship you a disk. . . for a price.

      --

      This sig was generated randomly by one million monkeys with Speak 'n Spells. . .
    10. Re:Very true.... by segedunum · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I have a few Windows XP licenses, but they are all OEM XP Home/Media Center licences that came with the computers.......I help exactly one person with an OEM XP Home machine and it gives more headaches than my custom installs. My custom installs are based on a Corporate Edition Windows XP Pro. Those never give problems unless it is hardware. Simply said: Windows XP Pro Corporate^WPirate Edition gives me better *value* for less money.
      So Microsoft have already taken their cut, even if you are using a pirated XP Pro? What's Microsoft's problem with piracy again?
    11. Re:Very true.... by hawkbug · · Score: 2, Informative

      I do this all the freaking time - just get an OEM copy of XP Home or Pro, and then reinstall with the key on the sticker on the side of machine. I do it once a week probably for people, it works every time. It doesn't matter if it's a Dell, HP, or whatever. It WILL work if you do it right with the right version of windows. As far as activation goes, sometimes you have to call in and get the stupid rep in India or whatever to read back a very long number to reactivate the machine, but it will install and you can reactivate it. You should NEVER have to pay for another copy of windows if your hard drive crashes, period.

    12. Re:Very true.... by hawkbug · · Score: 4, Informative

      No, no, no - you're misunderstanding what I'm saying entirely. Don't ever use the discs that come with the computer. Get your own copy of an OEM disc, whether borrowed or purchased like here:

      http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N8 2E16832116049

        http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N8 2E16832116059

        http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N8 2E16832116056

      I have one copy of each and they are most widely used discs as a person who fixes computers for people for a living. The sticker on any OEM computer will work with the appropriate disc, and that's all you need.

    13. Re:Very true.... by penix1 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Yes, everything does have a cost. In Linux it is a learning curve (that is rapidly narrowing with distributions such as ubuntu), hardware support (again, narrowing with more vendors choosing to support it), and frustration when things go wrong. On the other hand, Windows has many down sides too from the hidden cost of the OS when you buy the computer to the same frustration when things go wrong. You have worms, virii, malware, spyware, crapware, etc. It increases cost by requiring you to get software and hardware to protect yourself from its vulnerabilities. It increases cost by using resources for that protection that can better be used for productive tasks. Last but not least, having to justify your legal use of software to the manufacturer I see as a big social cost. Just look at the responses to this article and you are seeing otherwise good people justifying copyright infringement (i.e. "I bought it with this feature but I want that...", "I lost my key and had to re-install..", "I can't afford what Microsoft is charging so...")

      To me, those costs are higher than any Linux may have.

      --
      This is a sig. This is only a sig. Had this been an actual sig you would have been informed where to tune for more sigs.
    14. Re:Very true.... by joto · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Most people I've met seem to be aware of the fact that they should somehow have backed up their data. It's just that they haven't come around to it yet (which, by the way, includes me). They don't need instructions on how to do it, or why to do it. If they had bothered, the CD or DVD-burner they already have will do just fine.

      Their problem isn't managing weekly or daily backups with full system restore. Their problem is that in the last 5 years, they haven't really bothered to actually take the time to transfer even a small bit of their valuable (or not) data, onto a removable medium, that can be stored safely in e.g. a safe deposit box, or at a friends place.

      Also, most people (at least those of us who live in a rich country, such as in US or western Europe) have more money than time, and if the choice is between learning to use a computer, or simply pay for a new one, when the old one is "broken", they buy a new one. I'm guilty of this myself. Not with computers (because I know computers, and I'm not happy with what I can buy), but with lots of other things. This year, I actually bought a new bike, because the old one needed a new chain, new front brake pads, and some oil on the gear- and break-wires. It's not that I couldn't fix that in an evening, if I had to. But I didn't have to, and besides, it was more fun to just buy a new bike. The old one I gave away, because a friend wanted it, and if I hadn't met him on the way to the landfill, it would have ended up there. I am not proud of this, but unfortunately (or fortunately for me) cheap manufacturing in third-world countries combined with high salaries here, have made me a consumer that can't even be bothered to oil his bike.

    15. Re:Very true.... by CastrTroy · · Score: 3, Interesting

      If it's anything like the Acer Laptop I just bought, there's an 8 Gig partition at the beginning of the drive. You change some setting in the BIOS, and when it books, it resets the hard drive back to factory settings. Haven't tried it yet (and maybe won't for a while), but the option is there.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    16. Re:Very true.... by Propaganda13 · · Score: 2, Informative

      I went to reinstall Windows XP Home on a Compaq computer with a lost disk. It had the sticker, but they had lost the disk. I used a generic OEM disk to reinstall instead. The automatic activation failed. Checked my number and I reinstalled thinking something was corrupted. The automatic activation failed again. I called Microsoft to activate. They said it wouldn't validate and they wouldn't help me since it was OEM and to call my manufacturer.

      Needless to say, I played with it. YMMV
      1. clicked on the phone call option
      2. clicked on the change product key
      3. re-entered product key
      4. tried the internet activation again and it worked

    17. Re:Very true.... by schon · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Everything has a cost. Couldn't agree more.

      Linux generally costs me a lot of time -- more time than it's worth to me. Funny, I'd say the same about Windows.

      When it comes to installing, Linux is much simpler and faster (and thus cheaper). When it comes to configuration, Linux is (again) easier and faster. Software installation? No contest (try comparing MS Office with OpenOffice packages.)

      Then you have to factor in administration and update headaches (Linux is a one-stop-shop, updating in the background, whereas Windows update does the base OS, but then I have to update all of the other software manually.) Not to mention anti-virus and other associated headaches.

      Even with a "$0" price tag, Windows costs *much* more than Linux.
    18. Re:Very true.... by WhyDoYouWantToKnow · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I'm not sure how other OEM's are doing this, but HP uses the restore partition and gives you the option of burning 1 (one) set of restore CD's or DVD's. My recently purchased HP laptop used 2 DVD's when I made the restore disks. Once that was done I promptly installed Kubuntu, but I left the restore partition and can choose it as a boot option from the loader.

      --
      "Oh drat these computers, they're so naughty and so complex. I could pinch them."
      Marvin the Martian
    19. Re:Very true.... by markov_chain · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The posts in this thread remind me why I like Linux so much. Look at all the trouble to deal with anti-piracy stupidity. Sure, Linux users will go back and forth about editing arcane configuration files but this stuff is asinine.

      --
      Tsunami -- You can't bring a good wave down!
    20. Re:Very true.... by arth1 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If it's anything like the Acer Laptop I just bought, there's an 8 Gig partition at the beginning of the drive.

      There's at least two problems with that approach:
      1. It won't just restore Windows, it will wipe anything else you have put on it. I.e. it's worthless for those who use both Windows and another OS.
      2. It won't work if the reason why you need to reinstall is that the disk is borken.

      It is also very hard to upgrade the disk on a system like that, but, of course, the manufacturer and Microsoft would both prefer that you buy a new laptop...

      Back to the original post, I think it is dead wrong, and that Windows is bundled makes it worse than a perception that it's free. People feel they have paid for Windows, and feel they should use what they have paid for. I am certain there are people who don't want to blow away their $300 OS for a free OS, just because they feel they have paid for it, and they don't want to appear as fools who pay for something they do not use.
    21. Re:Very true.... by totally+bogus+dude · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I recently re-installed my laptop to give it to my parents. It came with XP Professional, but I couldn't find the installation disc (if it even came with one). So I just used the XP Pro image I happened to have lying around. This required a VLK of course, so the key on the sticker on the laptop doesn't work. Just used a keygen to get it to install.

      So, that laptop would be classified as running a pirated copy of Windows, just because they still try to prevent you "stealing" their software by limiting access to the shiny discs (and because I was too lazy to download an OEM image so the key would work). Furthermore, I don't have to activate this version of Windows, so yet again: the pirated version is more convenient than the legit product.

    22. Re:Very true.... by aichpvee · · Score: 2, Funny

      "Pro level stuff," huh? You windows kids do realize that you sound ridiculous, right?

      --
      The Farewell Tour II
    23. Re:Very true.... by dbIII · · Score: 5, Funny

      many people just loose their OEM disk ... How should those people be handled?

      Quite seriously for letting the things out - they could bite some kid or crap on my lawn. If they just let them loose and don't have them on a leash or behind a high enough fence they are a menace.

    24. Re:Very true.... by Draek · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I've seen many people just loose their OEM disk (or just never got one). How should those people be handled? Is Piracy still piracy if it's the same version as what was there before?

      dunno, but I personally installed a "pirated" version of Win2K along with ArchLinux on my main desktop, figuring that if I paid for the damn thing with my laptop, I'm damn well entitled to use it *somewhere*. Ohh yeah, and all my other systems, said laptop including, run either Linux or FreeBSD.

      and yeah, posted under my username and not AC, Microsoft is as free to sue me over my OEM license transfer as I am over giving them one hell of a bad PR if they do. And they're free to sue me over their patents on Linux while they're at it, just more fodder for my anti-PR cannon.

      --
      No problem is insoluble in all conceivable circumstances.
    25. Re:Very true.... by Eivind · · Score: 4, Insightful

      True. With proprietary software you frequently get a lot of stress, even when using completely legit software, dealing with problems DELIBERATELY put there by the manufacturers. Like games that don't want to play because you've got some piece of software installed that *could* allow you to run the game without the CD. (notably daemon-tools prevents quite a few games from running, *unless* you run them trough daemon-tools, ironically.)

    26. Re:Very true.... by dintech · · Score: 3, Funny

      gives you the option of burning 1 (one) set of restore CD's

      And let me guess, all I need do is send $10,000 to their bank in Nigeria to get the process moving?

    27. Re:Very true.... by schotty · · Score: 3, Insightful

      A company I consulted for was in a real pickle -- they had the licenses for most but not all of the software. Some whitebox systems were using pirated or cloned keys of existing software or just flat out pirated stuff. I advised to either pony up the cash needed for the licenses or go FLOSS (OpenOffice, Zimbra, etc.). They chose the latter route, but took a bit. A pissed off employee that overheard the conversation got to the BSA before I could even start making an image of a server to do Zimbra, and roll out the whole company on OpenOffice (Parallel installs with MS Office on the LEGAL copies). Microsoft and another company that did proprietary stuff were pretty damn cool about it all. They asked for proof of how long. They told them to talk to me. I verified a guesstimated time and the response was simple. Since you are using it, something needs to be paid. But since management was unaware of the previous tech's misdeeds and your advice that was heeded (they didnt get 2 hours from talking to me to the BSA's contact call), that the cost will be nominal. And it was. What was nearly $5000 was a mere $2000 and it all went away.

      Intent does play a part here. Don't try to skirt responsibility and don't cheat the system. In my case the previous tech's name was given out to the BSA and presumably MS is going after him/her civilly. He was the criminal here.

      Hope this adds some insight to the topic here. Not a clear answer, but something to ponder.

      --
      Sigs are nice guns ...
    28. Re:Very true.... by petermgreen · · Score: 2, Insightful

      sure they claim it's experimental but it seems to work fine to me. It's not as though the partitions you are blowing away with images tend to have vital data on anyway.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
  2. Slashdotted already by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    Does anyone have a mirror of the original article?

  3. Pirates don't hurt anyone by AssCork · · Score: 3, Funny

    it's the swords -

    --
    The following replies are posted by unwashed nerds.
  4. Windows isn't free by gilesjuk · · Score: 4, Insightful

    OEM licences are cheap, but if XP lasts for 5 or so years and in that time you upgrade your computer 3 times then you've bought OEM Windows 3 times.

    Even if you buy a boxed version of Windows XP then you will still have to pay for OEM XP with each PC. This is the injustice in the way Microsoft bullies OEMs into not selling naked PCs.

    1. Re:Windows isn't free by ZakuSage · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I'm not entirely convinced it is -just- Microsoft's "bullying" that keeps OEMs from selling naked PCs; they don't think consumers want naked PCs. Most computer users today are... well idiots who wouldn't know how to install an OS if their life depended on it. Beyond that, most people know Windows and want to continue using it.

    2. Re:Windows isn't free by phalse+phace · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I could be wrong, but I don't believe there's much of a demand for naked PCs. I used to sell computers and often times customers would ask me whether the computer came with any software, namely Windows (and sometimes MS Office), or not. From my experience, not only do customers want Windows to be pre-installed, but they expect it to be.

      The same can even be said about a few customers who expected MS Office to be pre-installed too. "What? I'm buying a $500 computer and it doesn't even come with Office? How come?"

    3. Re:Windows isn't free by reboot246 · · Score: 4, Funny

      I can relate to that. My girlfriend called me a couple of weeks ago and wanted me to install Windows on her daughter's computer. She had just gone out and bought the software. I said that I was 100% sure that she already had Windows on that computer. "No", she said, "Windows isn't on this computer and she needs it to type her resume." Turns out that the computer had Windows and what she had bought that day was Office. And this is a woman who is intelligent enough to date me!

    4. Re:Windows isn't free by Nimey · · Score: 3, Funny

      And this is a woman who is intelligent enough to date me!


      What does that say about you?
      --
      Hail Eris, full of mischief...

      E pluribus sanguinem
    5. Re:Windows isn't free by jmorris42 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      > I'm not entirely convinced it is -just- Microsoft's "bullying" that keeps OEMs from selling naked PCs;

      Think ten seconds and you will realize just how wrong you are.

      First admit that us geeks here on /. and other places aren't exacly legion compared to the hordes of mass consumer electronics buyers but we ain't exactly zero either. Now thought experiment time. If Microsoft were honoring their agreements NOT to enforce illegal per CPU licensing deals what would be the reason for EVERY manufacturer to have a policy where anytime a Linux crank called em up wanting to buy a machine without Windows to just say, "OK, done. Subtract $20 from the listed price. That is the difference between a stock machine with Windows and one without after we have to manually open the carton and remove the CD and blank the drive. Order 50 and we will talk about saving ya some more." Kinda amazing that instead, after over a decade of us asking, NOT ONE SINGLE MAJOR VENDOR WILL DO IT. Dell now offers preloaded Linux but it still isn't a naked machine sold for LESS THAN WINDOWS. Even Dell's N series machines usually end up costing the same or more than the same hardware loaded with Windows when you play the coupon, rebate and daily special games.

      What each and every vendor refuses to do, against all economic theory, is offer what a small but non zero minority of customers have been yelling loudly for over a decade for, to be able to buy a naked PC that is in every way exactly like the same machine offered with Windows, sold for a lower price without a preloaded copy of Windows. Always smoke and mirrors and the naked or Linux preload ends up the same or more and you can't shake a sneaking suspicion you paid the Microsoft tax anyway and they just kept the media and sticker. There are enough of us that basic economic theory says ONE vendor would have satisfied the market unless Microsoft is still illegally distorting it.

      --
      Democrat delenda est
    6. Re:Windows isn't free by nwbvt · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "What each and every vendor refuses to do, against all economic theory, is offer what a small but non zero minority of customers have been yelling loudly for over a decade for, to be able to buy a naked PC that is in every way exactly like the same machine offered with Windows, sold for a lower price without a preloaded copy of Windows. Always smoke and mirrors and the naked or Linux preload ends up the same or more and you can't shake a sneaking suspicion you paid the Microsoft tax anyway and they just kept the media and sticker. There are enough of us that basic economic theory says ONE vendor would have satisfied the market unless Microsoft is still illegally distorting it."

      Lets pretend for a second that WalMart, Dell, and now soon Lenovo have all sold or announced the intention to sell computers with Linux pre-installed (and at lower prices than their Windows brethren). Yeah, they might not be that much cheaper, just a few hundred bucks (compared to the cost of the rest of the machine which can easily be over a grand), but thats about how much Windows costs.

      If you really are a die hard computer geek, there is a good chance you won't even buy from a major vendor but just build your own machine. And many of the rest of them want a dual boot machine so they can play games that are only available on Windows. And despite what we say around here, Linux has never been big on the desktop, which is what these computers you are speaking of are sold for. It is primarily used on machines like servers (where you can easily buy it preloaded). Thus the minority of users who will buy a naked or Linux PC is very, very small indeed.

      And the cost of selling machines without the standard OS is not non-zero. They have to pay to support them, install them (in the case of Linux preloaded machines), sell them, stock them, and then deal with all the cranky old ladies who didn't understand what they were buying and accidentally bought a computer without an OS. So actually economics states that it is not necessarily a profitable idea.

      --
      Mathematics is made of 50 percent formulas, 50 percent proofs, and 50 percent imagination.
  5. Price model by Bombula · · Score: 5, Insightful
    The guys at M$ are pretty smart. There's a good argument that Windows is too expensive, and that if it was cheaper more people would buy it and that would both discourage piracy and boost the company's profits. But consider the article's point in that context: if Windows was cheaper, it would get rid of the piracy that is staving off Microsoft's REAL competition: freeware.

    Maybe this is just tinfoil hat stuff, but could this all be part of Microsoft's strategy? Are they that smart?

    --
    A-Bomb
    1. Re:Price model by roman_mir · · Score: 4, Funny

      Maybe this is just tinfoil hat stuff, but could this all be part of Microsoft's strategy? Are they that smart? - no, they are really dumb. They are only making billions while they could be making MILLIONS!

    2. Re:Price model by dave562 · · Score: 4, Funny
      That's an old drug-dealer strategy - the first time is for free, then they come to you with money.

      I want to meet one of those drug dealers. They give me the first one free, then they come to me with money after that? Where do I sign up?!

  6. Windows is free by RLiegh · · Score: 2, Funny

    ...only if your privacy means nothing.

    1. Re:Windows is free by dave562 · · Score: 3, Funny
      Linux is free

      ....if only your time means nothing.

      Ya ya, gimme the karma hit. It was too funny and too easy to pass up.

    2. Re:Windows is free by CastrTroy · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I know you're trying to be funny, but here's my funny anecdote. I got a Vista laptop over the weekend. It was dog ass slow, so I installed Mandriva (I was planning to install it before I bought it). I took me a few hours to get the network card drivers working, but after that, I had a full 3D desktop with wireless capability. So, while it took some of my time to get my machine working under Linux, but I figure I've already saved that much time in how much quicker my machine operates then when Vista is running. And I don't even get a 3D Desktop in windows, because it thinks my computer isn't good enough, and only ships with home basic.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    3. Re:Windows is free by B4D+BE4T · · Score: 2, Funny

      While we're throwing out anecdotes, here's mine:

      Over the weekend I tried installing Ubuntu on my old desktop. First I tried Ubuntu 7.04. It died trying to boot from the CD and gave an error about not being able to read from the CD. So I figured it was a bad CD. Burned the ISO on a different burner and tried again, same error. Burned it again at the slowest speed, same error. So I gave up and went for the older version, Ubuntu 6.06. Installed OK, but the desktop was stuck at 640x480 resolution. Took a few hours of scrolling through various how-tos and trying a few things like: Plugging the monitor directly into the desktop (not through the KVM switch) and then reconfiguring xorg.conf; updating nVidia drivers; changing various settings in xorg.conf; etc. Finally, after a few hours of messing with it, it turned out I needed to add HorizSync and VertRefresh settings to the monitor section of xorg.conf. Then I was free to select any resolution for the desktop. So now when I open a window, I get to see the whole window!

      Now what did it take to get the same functionality in Windows on the same desktop? Put in Windows CD 1 and select a few settings. Play Xbox. Put in CD 2. Play more Xbox. Done.

      What does all this mean? Nothing. It's just an anecdote.

    4. Re:Windows is free by CastrTroy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Not so at all. I have Mandriva 2007 spring with Compiz, and the animations are completely smooth. That's on a Celeron M 520 1.60GHz, with 512 MB of RAM, and an Intel GMA 950 video card. No way it would run vista with Aero. Vista without Aero is painfully slow. With Mandriva, I've never seen it slow down at all. It usually has a CPU usage of under 10%, but if I do a lot of 3D desktop stuff, it will sometimes get to 50%.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
  7. OSS is not free. by micromuncher · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Not sure why there is this pervasive myth that OSS is free. First, it costs people time to develop and contribute to OSS projects. Not all OSS is successful; a lot expects that others will contribute to grow the usefulness of the software.

    Then there is the configuration and maintenance cost. It costs people time to install and maintain a Linux OS loaded up with software. Support isn't always free for applications. A lot of OSS software I've seen pushes the "Here is the *tool* free, now pay us to train you, and/or make it work for you."

    Call me flamebait or a troll. I just don't think piracy equates to free. A lot of people know that copying Windows (or software of choice) is theft. The problem is the perceived value of the software, and OSS has a similiar perception issue...

    --
    /\/\icro/\/\uncher
    1. Re:OSS is not free. by nurb432 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Execpt that piracy isnt theft, and OSS is free to the USER, which is what the discussion is about here. Its not about development 'costs'.

      The fact you can buy support doesnt mean you have too.

      --
      ---- Booth was a patriot ----
    2. Re:OSS is not free. by homer_ca · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I think Linus had the right idea here. He said, "Linux is free the way a free puppy is free."

  8. Flip side by B5_geek · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Or this is what has happened in my case.

    I pirate everything I can. Never paying for any of the software I use. I start using Debian on my servers. Wow this is better then NT!

    I then start using it on my workstation, and discover I like it MORE then the free copy of Windows I had.
    I miss the games that I played (but never payed) on Windows. I miss the Apps like CorelDraw, MS Office, and all the games. But then I discover FREE software that works almost as good.

    I now use Linux exclusively on my workstation, my Moms, my Wifes, my In-Laws, and a few of my Clients PCs too. I use Linux because it is better not because it is free.

    --
    "The price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." ~Plato (427-347 BC)
    1. Re:Flip side by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      "I miss the Apps like CorelDraw, MS Office, and all the games. But then I discover FREE software that works almost as good."

      That's the crux of the issue for me though, when you can pirate it, and hence get it free when why would I bother with putting up with "almost as good"? Unfortunately, neither my will to go legit, nor my concience are enough to make me happy with the whole "almost" part.

      Until FOSS is actually as good I just can't find it in me to switch, which is sad in a way because I actually like the idea of FOSS and wish I could motivate myself enough to support it better.

    2. Re:Flip side by gaffle · · Score: 4, Interesting

      6 months ago I made the choice to go with Linux for audio production (8 analog i/o DAW) I did not make the switch because OSS was 'free', I made the switch because working with audio in Linux rules. I have worked extensively with Windows DAWs as well as Mac DAWs. Windows sucks, Mac is little better, Linux is best. However, I'm sick of being my own admin, despite the joys of total control. If I was running a professional studio on Linux, it would require that I always run outdated software simply to keep a stable configuration. Linux DAWs still rule though.

    3. Re:Flip side by kbjbfg70 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yes but you already had the technical sophistication to be running servers. Apparently, you also put in the effort to learn it.
      I work in a high school in the IT department, and many of the (non-IT) staff and teachers (as well as many other people that I know elsewhere) know enough to check their e-mail, write a Word document, and print it. If I'm lucky, they ^might^ have a vague idea what the names of those programs are.
      Weather it's easier in the long run or not, if they hear about an alternative (be it Mac or Linux or something else), they'll reject it immediately since they barely know enough to survive on their current setup and don't want to learn a different setup.
      Granted, not everyone is this timid around computers, but it does describe a large portion of users, and not only the older users.

  9. What? by eclectro · · Score: 4, Funny

    Pirates are hurting free software? I think we are cutting ninjas way too much slack here.

    --
    Take the cheese to sickbay, the doctor should see it as soon as possible - B'Elanna Torres, "Learning Curve"
  10. windows vs linux by ianare · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Yes, windows is free for many people, whether pirated on bundled. However, it is the pain and grief (the viruses, the malware, the ridiculous restrictions, the evil DRM) that is caused by using windows that will make people want to switch, not a diffrence in retail price. And people seem to be switching, however slowly.

    1. Re:windows vs linux by shellbeach · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Switching to another SO is hard for anyone. But for my mom who barely know how to write a email imposible. If your mother can barely write an email in Windows, chances are she'll find linux no more daunting.

      Seriously, I hear this all the time: "I can't switch to Linux, I don't even understand Windows!" ... to which my response is, "If you don't understand Windows, what have you got to lose??"

  11. Re:Wow! by jmorris42 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    > Ummm, that's not exactly an insight. Any story here about software in China mentions that point.

    The point was that is isn't just China. And it is a good point, but one I have realized for years. It's why I don't make a big issue of the free beer aspect in discussions. Because Windows is free, almost nobody ever sees a line item on a ticket for a Windows license. It either comes preloaded or bootleg.

    Which is the big point the linked article got wrong. Microsoft would never officially make Windows free for home users because it would hose the preload arrangments and they are THE key to maintaining the monopoly. The second problem with the piece is the assertion Microsoft can't acknoledge the benefits of piracy, they have in the case of the third world and China.

    Linux must be better than Windows on the merits, disregarding the stocker price. The Thinkpad I'm typing this on came preloaded with XP Pro. It hasn't accumulated a day of runtime in the four years I have been using it. Guess that says how value I see in it.

    I kept it just in case I needed to update firmware or call for tech support and they wanted to insist I show the problem exists in Windows. At some point I figured I had better boot over and let it update to SP2 so as to avoid being a menace to the Internet if someone ever used the Windows side. After which it now silently updates the firmware in the Cisco WiFi card at every boot and now I have to remember to reflash it back before shutting down anytime I let XP start. Big disincentive to NEVER boot that turd.

    --
    Democrat delenda est
  12. I just keep leading by example... by erroneus · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Once in a while I can show someone Linux and they just use it. It doesn't matter if it's free or not. I just show them a better way. It doesn't always work but lately it's getting easier.

    On the laptop of a blonde college-girl, I installed F7 and then installed vmware server and client along with WindowsXP Corporate^WPirate Edition. (She calls it 'baby windows') From that platform, she runs all the stuff she needs or wants... Linux stuff for as much as possible and "baby windows" for anything she can't figure out. So far she's ecstatic about Linux... it doesn't crash, it doesn't slow down after it has been running a while and it doesn't get the spyware/malware crap that she managed to collect while running Windows. I have also given her other pointers when it comes to other activities such as music downloads... (simply, I advised her to NOT DO music downloads... share them on the school's LAN and if you can't find what you're looking for that way, ask any guy to download it for her...of course he will! She avoids the risk and the complication.)

    I recently introduced a very handy VMWare appliance (ESVA if you're interested) to my brother (Let's call him Microsoft Bob ... he's a Microsoft-centric developer and his name happens to be Robert...). While he didn't want to install VMWare Server, I was able to find a means of translating a VMWare machine to a MS Virtual PC machine so he could run it that way. After he got this thing up and running, I couldn't get him to shut up about exactly how cool and powerful this thing running Linux and free software really is.

    My point is, sometimes you just gotta find the right catch... ...and then there was this other guy who was actually spending MONEY on porn sites! I was aghast at how stupid that was... I installed Azureus on his machine and showed him "empornium" and a few other sites and told him to go to town and not to forget to cancel his secret credit cards.

  13. Home Uses Are Too Small by hardburn · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The largest customers of Microsoft Windows are businesses, not home users. Businesses generally buy new OEM hardware and get the OS and Office with the machine. There are cases where they might get some older hardware together and run a not-so-ligit OS on it, but I think that's the exception. Most PHBs consider the warranty coverage of new hardware to far outweigh the advantage of trying to keep current hardware around.

    If you want Linux on the desktop, then businesses are where it has to start, and home users will follow.

    --
    Not a typewriter
  14. This may be a "grey" area ... by khasim · · Score: 2, Interesting

    But there are many websites out there that will tell you the TWO changes you need to make to just about any WinXP CD so you can burn one that will be anything you need.

    Start with a retail version and build an OEM version that will accept your OEM license key.

    Is it "piracy" then?

    I've done this when I want a completely clean install at work. None of the OEM crap. Just vanilla WinXP.

    The only downside is having to hunt through the vendor's website looking for drivers for all the hardware. And you don't get the vendor specific apps.

    1. Re:This may be a "grey" area ... by Winckle · · Score: 5, Insightful

      And you don't get the vendor specific apps. Downside?
    2. Re:This may be a "grey" area ... by Eideewt · · Score: 2, Interesting

      That depends on what they are. Laptops may need a special driver for their media keys, or a card reader.

    3. Re:This may be a "grey" area ... by CastrTroy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Also, computers usually come with free CD/DVD buring software like Nero. It doesn't have all the options of the full version, but I haven't found anything I can't do with it. Stuff like that I like to keep around. Not all software that comes preinstalled is crap, althought I'll agree that the majority of it is.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    4. Re:This may be a "grey" area ... by freewaybear · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And you don't get the vendor specific apps. Downside?

      Why is this at 5, funny? This is worthy of 5, Insightful if anything is. Vendor specific apps are B.S.

      --
      Registered Linux User #404114 [url=http://www.punkoiska.com][img]http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/4379/posbannercf5.g
    5. Re:This may be a "grey" area ... by Poppler · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Codecs are a big deal too - for example, a clean install Windows XP is not capable of playing DVDs.

      --
      What's the ugliest part of your body? Some say your nose, some say your toes, but I think it's your mind. -Zappa
    6. Re:This may be a "grey" area ... by lord_rob+the+only+on · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Use VLC or mplayer if you want to play DVDs on Windows without the need of those annoying codecs ;-).

      Research for the Linux operating system benefits Windows too :)

    7. Re:This may be a "grey" area ... by CheShACat · · Score: 2, Informative

      Media player is perfectly capable of playing DVDs Erm. No it isn't, not out of the box on an unmodified Windows XP install.

    8. Re:This may be a "grey" area ... by CheShACat · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Sorry mate, not to be a typical know-it-all-have-to-be-right geek, but I just tried this on a fresh install of Win XP with a DVD made by our in house media bod, which he assures me is not "encrypted" in any way and... No sir, it didn't like it.

    9. Re:This may be a "grey" area ... by Poppler · · Score: 2, Informative

      Define 'clean install'. When you install it yourself from a retail or volume license disc, something you've apparently never done.

      Media player is perfectly capable of playing DVDs Only if you have the proper codec, which you probably got from your OEM. Otherwise, no, it can't.

      And PLEASE don't start to tell me how capable Linux is out of the box with NO additional items I didn't say anything about Linux. We're talking about Windows XP.
      --
      What's the ugliest part of your body? Some say your nose, some say your toes, but I think it's your mind. -Zappa
    10. Re:This may be a "grey" area ... by EtherMonkey · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The only downside is having to hunt through the vendor's website looking for drivers for all the hardware. And you don't get the vendor specific apps.


      But this is a significant obstacle for most people, especially when the OEM doesn't post individual downloads for drivers and utilities. Between the time Dell stopped shipping XP in favor of Vista and then started again, I had to buy a laptop for my son. I got an Inspiron E1505 with Vista Premium. As far as I'm concerned, Vista is a bloated piece of garbage. His 2GHz Core Duo with 2GB RAM ran like a pig and most of his games wouldn't work. Dell didn't offer drivers download at the time, only a recovery disk. So, to put XP Pro on the lappy I had to find OEM drivers for each piece of hardware in the machine. It took over a week (part time). And I've run into the same problem with HP (in fact, they are even worse than Dell in this regard).

      But on to the subject at hand. I think the problem is that its hard to justify the value of paying up to $400 (Vista Ultimate retail) for the OS, when a new computer with the OS installed can be bought from Dell for $600. And what do you get for $400? A disk, a key code and a license card; no printed documentation, no free support, no money-back guarantee. It's hard to convince the average computer that a copy of Windows should be any more expensive than, say, a Pirates of the Caribbean DVD. And frankly, I would tend to agree.

      Microsoft spends about $6.5-7 Billion annually on R&D. Let's say they have 20 products they actively support and develop (it's more, but I don't feel like doing the research) so that's about $325M per product for R&D per year. The latest episode of Pirates of the Caribbean cost about $300M to produce. When released on DVD, Pirates will retail for $25.00. Add in another $10 for seeing Pirates in the theater, and that's $35.00 "per user."

      I realize this is a simplistic view and there's other economic factors involved. But in my mind I can't justify paying 10x more for a copy of Windows Vista than I do for a DVD movie release. The R&D, production, support and other costs just don't add up to being 10x more than producing and distributing a successful movie.

      And the proof of this lies in the enterprise licensing market. I work for a very large corporation, more than 100k employees. I am told that, during recent contract negotiations, we got a price of around $100 per user/year for Windows OS, Office Pro, Windows Server User CAL and Software Assurance. That's a far cry from the almost $700 it would cost at retail prices.

      That said, I don't pirate Microsoft products. As a Microsoft Partner I get more than enough licenses of all the Microsoft product I use for $300/year. If it weren't for that, I'd probably switch to F/OSS versions of most of the packages I use.
      --
      --- A man with a briefcase can steal more money, than any man with a gun. [Don Henley]
  15. office is a better example by bwy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    There is definitely a valid point to be made about the circumstances surrounding "Free Windows." For me, though, Office is a better example. Consider the facts: Office is pretty much never part of an OEM pre-load unless you pay for it. So everyone is aware of how much it costs.

    You can buy a $350 Dell and then add $150-$400 for Office. I'm not sure if non-students qualify for the $150.

    Yet the fact that so many people "require" you to use Office makes me think they assume it is free, which can only mean that everyone pirates it. For example, I was interviewing for jobs once and submitted my resume as a PDF generated with OO. They kicked it back and said they needed it in Word format so they could index it properly. I know OO saves in Word format, but I don't trust it for someone as important as a resume. Without a test machine with Office, it is hard to know what formatting/conversion defects might appear that would make me look like a dufus to the prospective employer. (Now cue the "you shouldn't work at such a stupid place anyway" comments- you're probably right!)

    Also I've heard some schools require kids to do work in MS Office at home. Are they really telling parents they have to go out and spend $150-$400? Or do they THINK they're telling parents and kids to use something they already have? If they already have it, how many of those are pirated copies.

    So yeah, if it suddenly became impossible to pirate office, I really think that at a minimum, schools would change their tune.

    I'm not a MS basher, and try to stay pretty objective. But the fact that we, as a society, have convinced ourselves that we HAVE to use Office and make our own policies enforcing it's use... well, it drives me nuts! It is such a cliche by now, but still so valid- most people don't use 10% of the features in Word or Excel.

    1. Re:office is a better example by GreyPoopon · · Score: 2, Informative

      I know OO saves in Word format, but I don't trust it for someone as important as a resume. Without a test machine with Office, it is hard to know what formatting/conversion defects might appear that would make me look like a dufus to the prospective employer.

      OK, if you're using a Windows machine, there is an easy solution. If it's a Linux box, you might be able to get the solution to work under WINE. All you need is Word Viewer 2003. This will allow you to create a Word format document with OO.org and view it as Microsoft Office users would see it.
      --

      GreyPoopon
      --
      Why is it I can write insightful comments but can't come up with a clever signature?

  16. False pretenses... by bealzabobs_youruncle · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Most medium and large companies don't risk pirating software, at least not on a major scale or for any kind of significant deployment. The reason the vast majority of companies don't sue for F/OSS is because PHBs have a strange perception that buying commercial software gives them someone to hold accountable. They think that if it breaks beyond the skill of their I.T. staff that MS or Intuit or Adobe have some tech support genius who can get it fixed, or that they can then turn around and sue MS/Intuit/Adobe for not providing that level of support. Of course we all know that every commercial application out there states very early on in the license that no such warranty exist, but until the management at most companies acknowledges this MS will have an edge.

    In regards to home users, not really much do discuss; most believe that MS Office is part of the OS and don't know where apps start and the OS ends, this will be a tough group to educate but the vast majority aren't pirates and just live with what their OEM puts on their PC. That article was nothing more than a perfect example of a classic Dvorak troll.

    1. Re:False pretenses... by gujo-odori · · Score: 4, Interesting

      "Most medium and large companies don't risk pirating software, at least not on a major scale"

      In what we call (or used to call?) first-world countries, no, they generally don't. However, in a lot of developing economies they do. I used to live in a country that falls into that category, and I can tell you that not only in companies, but also in government offices, locally built white-box PCs running pirated copies of Windows + the usual apps were the norm. The only place you'd see legit stuff is in the offices of large, international companies. I wouldn't have known where to even buy a legit copy of Windows in-country, if it can even be done. But you can get pirated anything for a dollar all over the place.

      I don't agree with the article (well, to some extent) WRT the developed world, but it's premises hold very well in developing nations. Windows was there first, it was then and is now practically free, and because of that, is very well entrenched. Even in markets where Windows is expensive, Linux faces an uphill fight. In markets where Windows has cost parity, it's even tougher.

    2. Re:False pretenses... by SL+Baur · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That article was nothing more than a perfect example of a classic Dvorak troll. Read through the rest of the comments here. I think the article is dead on.

      I've spent most of the last 4 1/2 years in the 3rd world and I may have seen a legally purchased copy of Microsoft Windows once, but I'm not sure. Many of the posters here are confirming that the same kind of copying goes on in the developed world too. Philippine internet cafe folks have to be able to run games because their strongest market is children playing games.

      In regards to home users, not really much do discuss; most believe that MS Office is part of the OS and don't know where apps start and the OS ends, this will be a tough group to educate If that's the case, then any Linux distro would do just fine and there would be no need for any education. My mother did fine for years on a Linux box I set up (in 1998) and she was and still is computer illiterate.
  17. A way to stay legal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The 'offical' OEM version has all the crap off. It's just like windows xp, without all the extra crap OEM's put on. I think Newegg sells these versions.

    You can torrent an 'offical' OEM version of Windows XP and use the cd-key on the sticker on OEM computers. I ditched my OEM XP disc since it would always install miscellaneous junk and nvidia's drivers, which I don't need now that I have an Ati card.

  18. Re:Slashdotted already -- Coral cache by Virgil+Tibbs · · Score: 2

    Slashdotted: use the Coral Cache: http://tlug.jp.nyud.net:8080/articles/Windows_Is_F ree

    --
    www.tdobson.net #### Dare to Dream #### blog.tdobson.net
  19. Re:Wow! by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 3, Informative

    Linux must be better than Windows on the merits, disregarding the stocker price. The Thinkpad I'm typing this on came preloaded with XP Pro. It hasn't accumulated a day of runtime in the four years I have been using it. Guess that says how value I see in it.


    And the problem is -- it is better. Look at modern desktop distros like Ubuntu. Nowadays they support a lot of hardware out of the box without having to do the work of loading a single driver. Everything is clean and well-integrated. Most applications that people need are installed right out of the box. It doesn't suffer from the maladies of spyware, adware, or viruses/worms/trojans or drive-by downloads.
  20. Re:Not true by rudy_wayne · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "People don't want Linux not only because Windows is free, but because Windows is much better."

    This is the unpleasant truth that nobody wants to admit. Linux is free and yet every day, millions of people all over the world use pirated Windows instead. On a level playing field (Linux = free, Pirated Windows = free), people overwhelmingly choose Windows. If Linux was anywhere near as good as Windows it would be far more popular than it is today.

    You can claim that Linux is better. That's your opinion. Just like people used to swear that Beta was superior to VHS.

    The author of the article repeatedly claims that everyone should switch to Linux because it's "almost as good as Windows". Unfortunately it's not. When the best applications aren't available on Linux, that's not "almost as good". When you have to carefully pick and choose your hardware because only a few have Linux drivers, that's not "almost as good".

    I've tried to like Linux. I really have. Redhat, Suse, Ubuntu. But it is vastly inferior in all the ways that matter. And the actions of millions of people all over the world shows that they feel the same.

  21. REMOVING Windows is NOT free. by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Another point that's being missed: Removing the preinstalled version of Windows on a PC (by installing something else over it) is NOT free.

    The cost includes:
      - the perceived risk of loss of the machine (and the money invested in it) if the install of the alternative OS goes wrong so badly that it can't be backed out and the machine recovered to its previous working configuration.
      - the cost of porting his data and working procedures to a new environment and learning to be efficient in this new environment.

    The cost is even higher if the machine isn't fresh, but he's been working on it for a while. Now he's risking his current working environment and the associated data.

    (And yes I know about backups and having to reinstall Windows from time to time. So what? That's also fraught with risks of loss. The cost of having to recover from backups is something he knows in his guts from past experience. So now he should volunteer to incur this cost when he doesn't NEED to, in order to switch to an unfamiliar environment and incur the porting cost as well? You have to be perceived as a LOT better to get him over that hump.)

    The way to break this cycle is what Dell is doing now: Provide new machines with Linux preinstalled for less than the same machine with Windows preinstalled. Then he has a known-good-system with support and only has to incur the porting cost, much of which he'd incur in migrating to a new machine. (And how good it is that this is happening at the same time as the rollout of Vista, increasing the porting cost for sticking with Windows by adding the migration to a new version.)

    --
    Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
  22. hardware and software are cheap compared to time by bcrowell · · Score: 5, Insightful

    For many people, both computer hardware and computer software are cheap compared to the time they spend using their computer, dealing with computer hassles, etc. For someone who's a professional graphic designer, for example, the price of a nice mac with a big screen, and copies of all the Adobe stuff, are just tax-deductible fixed costs of running their business. For people like this, the most important consideration is maximizing their productivity. If they're already used to Photoshop, then switching to GIMP isn't likely to make them any more productive. Ditto for switching from Windows to Linux.

    Since it's all about time for professional users, any time spent screwing around and getting the dang thing to work is a disaster. I'm not sure whether Linux is significantly less usable than Windows or MacOS X at this point; the question probably can't be answered because it involves a lot of value judgments, lifestyle choices, and personal issues like technical and educational background. But what I'm absolutely certain of is that any computer is a lot of hassle to set up and maintain. Slashdot users may consider that hassle to be a kind of fun, but that's not the case for most people. So let's say, for the sake of argument, that Windows, MacOS X, and Linux are all about equally full of hassles. Well, the person who is already running Windows has already worked out the hassles with Windows. It's going to take them a huge amount of time to work out all the new and different hassles of a different OS.

    Now that was all about professional users. The article's points about cracked software are mostly relevant to students and casual users. To a student, it may really make financial sense to spend a weekend obtaining and installing a cracked version of Photoshop, because he simply doesn't have the money to buy a legal copy. The thing is, it's very common in the retail world for businesses to offer different pricing to people who have different personal priorities about money versus hassle. Airlines sell first-class tickets, but they also sell economy tickets. Supermarkets give their best prices to people who have membership cards and who are willing to clip coupons from the Sunday paper. The existence of cracked copies of Windows is another example of the same thing. Microsoft is very happy that a broke college student pirates Windows, because the student doesn't have the money to pay for a legal copy, and if he wasn't using bootlegged Windows, he might get in the habit of using some other OS.

    Re cracked software, I think there's another phenomenon that the author of TFA isn't cluing in on. Commercial software tends to exploit users. For example, I've bought Mac software (Mathematica) that wouldn't work on my new Mac because it had a later version of MacOS; their response was that I needed to buy a new version of the software to work on the new OS. In the same era, I bought some Mac music software with a copy protection scheme that involved inserting a special floppy every time you wanted to run it; I bought a new mac, which didn't have a floppy drive, and the software company told me I needed to buy an external floppy drive in order to keep running the software. A very common experience is that you buy software, find out that certain functionality is broken, and are forced to pay for an upgrade in hopes that it will fix the bug. The whole computer hardware and software industry runs on principle of the upgrade treadmill: software companies arm-twist you into buying new versions of software, which then won't run or don't perform acceptably on your hardware, so you have to buy new hardware. One response to this (my response) was to switch to Linux. But a completely different, and not so unreasonable, response is to fight back by pirating your software.

  23. No need to pirate for it to be inexpensive by Dada · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I paid 250$ for XP Pro 5+ years ago. I plan to use it until it isn't supported anymore (probably 2-3 more years). That will come to about 3$/month over its lifetime. That may not be free beer in the strictest sense but it's pretty damn close (my budget column for actual beer in that period of time dwarfs it in any case). Getting a pirated copy isn't worth the hassle of manually downloading patches (I'm not 100% sure but I don't think automatic online updates work for pirated copies).

    The Windows OS will live and die based on the quality of its competition (already there and then some) and third party support from developers (that part is annoyingly slow to come but it'll happen). The actual cost is no big deal either way (many many Linux users pay more than 3$/month for patches and aren't going bankrupt).

  24. Re:Not true by DogDude · · Score: 2, Insightful

    More telling is that people willing PAY for Windows, even though they know that Linux is free (I'm one of them). Awareness of Linux is certainly up, even though usage (on the desktop) is still as negligible as it has been for the past decade. It can be said that Linux makers literally cannot give it away. That says even more about Linux than many people would like to admit.

    --
    I don't respond to AC's.
  25. Re:Not "Free as in beer" by Constantine+XVI · · Score: 2, Informative

    Yes, they are.
    Red Hat: while their binaries are not free, the source is, and there are people dedicated to converting the source back into binaries to hand out freely (CentOS).
    SuSE: openSUSE is free, and SLED is more or less a freeze of openSUSE. In addition, SLED can be had for free (beer), but you can't update from the SLED repositories (openSUSE's repos works just fine though)

    --
    "I think an etch-a-sketch with an ethernet port would beat IE7 in web standards compliance."
  26. Those wanting to help the world... by Spy+der+Mann · · Score: 4, Informative

    ... to get rid of the Microsoft monopoly, and happen to be proficient at C programming:
    you could cooperate with the ReactOS project (a windows compatible OS) and lend them a hand or two.

    I'd love to help them, but I have little spare time and I'm not very good with C - just C++.

  27. The real scandal is the phony license key by Cafe+Alpha · · Score: 2, Interesting

    That sticker with a license key and hologram? I've been told it's phoney key - Microsoft revoked the license keys for OEM machines and I guess is issuing ones they have no intention of honoring, so they can't be used to reinstall the OS from scratch.

    See the OEM is just a hard drive image, so you can't install non-default features (like asian support).

    AND you can't take a real Windows disk, install it on the machine and use the phoney license key that came with the machine to authenticate.

    AND apparently, that phoney key doesn't entitle you to buy and install a replacement OEM image either - they don't replace the disk. The piece of paper is nothing!

  28. Oblig. P-A Reference by bubbl07 · · Score: 2, Informative

    I commented on the physics of the most recent Die Hard having problems detracting from my enjoyment of the movie
    The ass-backwardsness of Die Hard may also be used to add to your enjoyment.
  29. Yeah, but then people don't upgrade by rockhome · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I mean really, how many users, without super-computer-competant friends, actually upgrade their base OS?

    I have upgraded my version of MacOS a twice, but I am a top end user. The Macs my parents own haven't been upgraded
    in quite some time. In the time that I owned Windows PCs, I didn't upgraded th eOS, I got a new PC. This seems the
    way it has been with most of the average users that I know. They use the same version of OS that was installed and use
    it for a few years until the whole machine needs to be replace and they replace the whole lot.

    In that sense, the OS is always free because they never made a line item payment for the OS on purchase, and never
    upgraded the machine they originally purchased. People don't choose Linux because it requires them to do something
    other than plug the box in. Unless they special order something, but your local big box generally offers PCs with Windows.

  30. Vastly Inferior by samfff · · Score: 2, Insightful

    That is the facts of the matter. Linux may be a good copy of server room Unix but it is a poor copy of windows. All the things that Windows works hard at are actively avoided by Linux users and developers: Backwards compatability, working with all available hardware, installing easily, requiring no configuration.Ok, and after we give up on all that what do we get. Buggy software, source code that won't compile, rpms that still need another package (that usually doesn't exist, or else needs another package itself), driver installation that requires you to know exactly which processor you have and to compile against kernel source and ugly fonts. Oh and don't forget that the UI looks exactly the same as all the other UIs, there is no innovation, and the whole thing is a total copy. And at the end of all this, when the user complains about the crapness, they are told if they stopped complaining and started developing then maybe the world would be a better place. Well guess what - they are back on windows ASAP. If the Linux user community realised how dissappointing the actual user experience is for the typical end user, and that money is not really a big thing involved in something I spend 8 hours a day in front of, they would realise how far they have to go before they are anywhere near the desktop. Geeks only.

  31. Why the OS should be part of the hardware by gig · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The OS should always be hardware-integrated like the Mac because for 99% of users the entire hardware is useless without it. Users see the OS as part of their PC. When the OS fails they want it repaired and they don't want to pay because they already had an OS. Cracking Windows is seen like a restore from backup. They never for a moment consider that naked is the natural state of their PC. Same as turned off is not seen as the natural state.

    As we go to no moving parts the OS is going to disappear into the hardware like firmware, it will come on a chip on the mobo, and it will finally be where users want it instead of how Bill Gates and Richard Stallman think it should be done. Ubuntu should not come on a DVD, it should come on a PC. When the PC is one chip what will be the rationale for selling it with some assembly required?

  32. Re:Very true....Missing install CDs by Technician · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I'd be willing to bet that Microsoft, the BSA and the court systems are going to rule this installation "pirated" and I can't blame them. However, what was I to do? This machine was reinstalled way before Ubuntu became viable. (I reinstalled it in 2004 or so, I think...)


    For a while I ran a pirated version of EZ CD Creator. I freely admit it. How was it justified? I have an older HP computer that did come with a wonderful recovery CD. My copy of the CD burning software became corrupted and would no longer launch. No problem. Uninstall the corrupt one and reinstall from original CD.

    The uninstall went fine without a hitch. The OEM restore CD was a problem. The entire disk was just a Norton Ghost image. There was no way to reinstall my legal copy of the CD burning software without completely dumping my existing configuration, files, data, and later installed software.

    To legally reinstall my software comes with the penalty of wiping my hard drive! This was unacceptable, so a replacement was borrowed from a friend. I would gladly tell the software vendors that I would stay legal if they provided installation disks that work without hosing the installation for the products provided with the hardware.

    This is one of the issues that got me to seriously consider Linux. Software that works, is legal, and can be reinstalled without problems.

    I am no longer running the pirated software so at the moment I am safe from a BSA raid. The older machine came with Windows 98 SE. It came to the point of the annual reformat/reinstall cycle and things were back to normal except now it's dual boot with Ubuntu. I still use Windows with the serial port to use my GPS software and National Geographic "Back Roads Explorer" topographic map software. For the occasional gig, I use Freestyler. Qlight is getting better, but not yet as functional.

    Now that MS Office 97 is getting obsolete, the real cost in upgrading was a prime reason to dual boot the machine. Windows 98 didn't come with MS Office. Ubuntu does come with Open Office. I couldn't justify the cost of Photoshop. I used Arcsoft software that came bundled with my camrera on Windows 98. I now use The Gimp. Instead of pirating a copy of a CD burning software when my Windows 98 copy goes south, I use Ubuntu. A Right click on an iso in the OS gives me the option to burn to CD. Nice. No 3rd party software needed at all. Instead of Voyetra for recording audio, I use Audacity.

    When you add up all the costs with a Windows install and typical applications, Ubuntu was an easy switch. Of course there is still a dual boot partition for the occasional GPS map load and gig. The rest of my machines are not dual boot.

    --
    The truth shall set you free!
  33. Re:office is ... an example of ... what? by TaoPhoenix · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I disagree. I learned basic computing on some low end Win boxes. Slowly, the news discussions about the MS Trilogy of Windows-Office-IE Explorer began making me think.

    Firefox proved to be the easiest switch. Easy install... and ... glitches! But wait... more deep breaths... weren't we complaining about IE6 glitches? So in the spirit of the article, "if each is free and both have glitches, then MS doesn't really have an advantage, do they?" (And who pirates IE? That's super-free, because of the whole MS bundle trick the DOJ became amused with.)

    Now, I did happen to glance at Open Office in the Version 1.x stages. I had my ideology all lined up... but it was so different, that time cost forced me to decline. Life progressed, and one day on a lark, I murmured, "Gee. What's Open Office up to these days?". Now, having first suffered horribly for 3 days on V1.x, I was *grateful* for the incredible improvements in the (then-beta) V2 next generation. I still run into amusements like printing workbooks instead of sheets, ... but this is OSS Office software! The second part of the MS trilogy defeated! Sure I can survive a botch or three!

    But that last one is really tough. I am sorry to say, making the OS switch is NOT as easy as the app switches. My first day I managed to nuke my music player because I somehow turned off the GUI window. (A fit of completely inspired bravery into the command line and the manual got it back two hours later.) I'm still motivated. And I'm still researching, at a glacial pace. But that "comfy-MS" feeling is my vote for the reason no one has switched. The only reason Mac is surviving... is because Apple is pulling out every last ounce of strength they have to market themselves ... as comfy.

    Re: The resume point, I disagree. Borrow a friend's machine, whip up your resume, save the file, and that's the only windows-created file you'll ever need, right? If not, make the file yourself.. and get a friend to *check it* before you send it to HR.

    Looking at the types of word docs I see being created, I have never heard of people rushing towards Office in stark terror *if they know of an alternative*. The problem is mindshare. "You mean, something *else besides office* can create a spreadsheet!?"

    The kiss of death in business used to be the weird proprietary apps that only run on windows. However, we just switched to a unified server running clients... while not marketed as such, that windows server ... will actually enable me to take a crack at a Linux desktop ... *gasp*... in the company!!

    The last remaining problem is - the advocate of anything new ... needs to be GOOD. Currently, I'm a gibbering hatchling. But one hysterical blunder at a time, I'll learn enough to only look like a fool instead of a menace. Then I can broach the idea. I am lucky enough that my boss is actually pretty pro-tech, even if he needs help on the details. I think he'll see what I'm trying to do.

    I have a static workflow, so once I nail the pattern, ... look! here I am! Free-Source software! MS has lost a prisoner! And who plays games at work anyway? So who needs DirectX 10?

    My email is visible. My remarks are sincere. Any of you Penguin hotshots who want to volunteer to be disaster-mitigation resources, let me know. I'm right on the money the perfect switch candidate. So for all the otbers like me out there, I'm game.

    --
    My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
  34. We must be tough on all forms of piracy by MarkByers · · Score: 4, Funny

    How should those people be handled? Is Piracy still piracy if it's the same version as what was there before?

    Yes, it's absolutely piracy.

    We need to be more tough on pirates and terrorists. In the music industry we use fines of $100,000 per 5MB of illegal pirated contraband. This should be increased to $500,000 per 5MB for Windows because it is such an important piece of software. Since Windows is about 1 GB in size that means we should be fining them about a gajillion dollars per theft. If you have multiple pirated copies then we must treat it as a commercial operation, and then clearly we are talking about *much* larger numbers.

    Once the fine has been paid the pirates should then be sentenced to death by hanging. This is a good way to prevent re-offending.

    I know that some of you think this is a little harsh but we must remember what the world was like when we were too gentle with pirates and terrorists. Do you want events like 9/11 to become a regular occurrence?

    --
    I'll probably be modded down for this...
  35. Sure everything has a cost by einhverfr · · Score: 2, Insightful

    but not everyone sees it that way.

    I think piracy hurts Linux in developing and home user markets because when one uses pirated software, one is not required to make the decision on whether to spend money on the software or not. Businesses hav greater liability and hence this is less of a factor.

    All else being equal, people wills stick with what they know because that always costs less time.

    Because I know Linux really well, I generally find that Windows costs me an inordinate amount of time and the opportunity cost is prohibitive (I can do a lot of things on Linux that I can't even dream about doing on Windows without a much larger budget than I have). So I am not going to dismiss the idea that, for Windows power user, Linux adoption takes a lot of time. The systems are different and both have learning curves attached.

    This being said, I think that Linux for *average* Windows users has been ready on the business end for quite some time (since at least 2000) and for home use are getting close. There are many applications which still pose obstacles in consumer space, but these will make it soon enough.

    In fact, in the business sector, Linux is a no-brainer choice. I am starting to help customers move from Microsoft Access to Once:Radix (an open source web-based program similar to Access but with a real RDBMS behind it). And many of my customers are expressing a desire to get rid of WIndows desktop systems in their places of buisness.

    Best Wishes.
    Chris Travers

    --

    LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
  36. Re:HEY! OPEN SORES FAGS! by ajs318 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Piracy puts legitimate companies like mine out of business
    Yes it does, but not the way you think it does.

    Faced with the choice of: pay for Adobe Photoshop, pirate Photoshop, pay for a simple graphics editor which will do what they need or pirate simple graphics editor, people will pirate Photoshop every time. If you sell a simple graphics editor that can be used to retouch photographs (red-eye removal, brightness / contrast adjustment, cropping / resizing, obliterating ex-boyfriends with copied bits of background) you will get absolutely nowhere -- and that's all because of piracy. And the crazy thing is, nobody ever has to make a single pirate copy of your program! Everyone's using pirate copies of Adobe Photoshop that they got from "a friend". They don't get the Adobe manuals, but they can get a book for about £20 that will explain how to use Adobe Photoshop to do all the stuff they could have done in that cheap graphics editor.

    The publishers of all these "$EXPENSIVE_PACKAGE for n00bs"-type books have to bear some responsibility for this. They are next-to encouraging wholesale piracy of $EXPENSIVE_PACKAGE. Unfortunately, I can't see any solution that doesn't make things worse. If you insist for someone to prove that they have a valid licence for $EXPENSIVE_PACKAGE before they can buy the n00b's guide, you make it harder to give software and books as gifts (e.g. the software from your mum and the book from your little sister). And you can't read the book before you get the software. If you give the publishers of $EXPENSIVE_PACKAGE some right of control over third-party manuals, you're damaging the free market (to the extent that such a free market exists, what with the damage already done by widespread tolerance of rampant piracy).

    The only thing that might come remotely close to cutting piracy is to introduce the concept of laches in copyright -- make it so that if copyright holders don't do something to protect their IP, they lose it. Then this would encourage them to go after home users and casual pirates. But I suspect many copyright holders wouldn't really want this either. They want to eat their cake and have it; they'd rather you were using a pirated version of their software than a legitimate version of anyone else's software.
    --
    Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
  37. What's the sociology of stupid vendor software? by Futurepower(R) · · Score: 3, Informative

    I'd love to understand the sociology behind the fact that computer makers put their own name on poorly designed software. Don't the computer makers have anyone smart enough to understand their crud software is self-destructive? Are they so stupid they don't know their software is poorly designed?

    I guess that often the non-technical people at technically-oriented companies don't know and don't care what they do. For them, it's just a job. For a technically knowledgeable person, their work is often a satisfying intellectual challenge. But non-technical people seem to be part of an incompatible culture; they lead somewhat robotic lives in which things don't have to work.

    How else to explain Toshiba's brainless slogan, "In touch with tomorrow"? Woooooo--oooooo. Spacey. Do Toshiba managers smoke dope? A better slogan would be "In touch with reality."

    I once asked a Toshiba technical support representative for tomorrow's stock quotes. Apparently the company has no special connection with tomorrow, unfortunately, in spite of the fact that they say they do, every time I turn on my laptop.

    Let's start a campaign to move all the non-technical managers of technical companies into retirement, where they can watch the blinking clocks on their VRCs.

  38. Seen it outside the OS by smchris · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I think the strongest point he makes is that Microsoft could give away Windows for home use. Not dissimilar to the free version of Oracle with the crippled database size and limited SMP that should discourage many people with small business and department needs from looking at PostgreSQL, and MySQL.