No More TV Listings For MythTV Users

Ryan Brown writes "As of September 1, the free XML TV guide service at zap2it labs has shut its doors due to misuse issues, as well as internal business issues. Now that Linux users, and most PVR users for that matter, are nearing the end of their last fetched TV guide, what free alternatives exist that can replace this much-needed service?"

Comments

That's easy

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll just pay for the service, and create a simple proxy script that grabs the crap through my subscription for however many friends I have that want to use it.

Re:That's easy

[S.O.B.]

I'll just pay for the service, and create a simple proxy script that grabs the crap through my subscription for however many friends I have that want to use it.

Exactly the attitude that forced Zap2It to stop offering the free service.

In the case of Zap2It there were people reselling the free listings. In your case you want to provide multiple subscriptions and only pay for one. I hope your friends (both of them) appreciate your theft.

Re:That's easy

[Anonymous Coward]

So you're saying Zap2It stopped offering their free service because not enough people were using it?

Re:That's easy

[tighr]

So you're saying Zap2It stopped offering their free service because not enough people were using it? Zap2It stopped offering their free service because too many people were reselling it. Of course, you have to wonder who is willing to pay for something that is offered for free, but Zap2It obviously would rather charge a subscription fee for something people are willing to pay for.

As a user of SageTV PVR, I enjoyed not having to pay for my subscription services. I've known about Zap2It going to subscription for sometime, but have failed to do the research on how Sage is handling this... does anyone else know? I haven't had my HTPC up and running all summer.

Re:That's easy

[gral]

The Schedules Direct site is setup as a Non Profit. They are running it like a co op. The more people sign up, the lower the price for everyone. There express purpose is to get the price down to $20 a year for the service. They have to pay for the schedules from Zap2It, just like everyone else. It is a set fee, and Schedules Direct doesn't know yet exactly how much it is going to cost to provide the service.

I actually "Appreciated" what Zap2It did, and stated several times on their survey they should be charging a little to offset the cost.

I now have my Schedules Direct service setup, with NO loss of schedule. Very seemless. I don't use MythTV because it is Free as in beer, I use it because it is a pretty damn good system for what I want it for. Paying a small amount for something that would take me awhile to program myself, or scrap from a site, makes sense to me.

Re:That's easy

[JWW]

Here.... http://www.schedulesdirect.org/

Re:That's easy

[Fordiman]

Hmm. I'm thinking of a standardized P2P protocol for such things...

Re:That's easy

[sorak]

Schedulesdirect charges the same rate that zap2it is planning to charge. so why should peope switch to them?

Re:That's easy

[jridley]

Because last I looked, zap2it wasn't selling subscriptions to individuals, they were talking to companies to bundle their services to many subscribers.
That's basically what schedules direct has done; they're an interface to tmsdatadirect for free software users.
I signed up on Sept 1. Their goal is $20/year. Right now they're higher so they can get started, and I didn't have any problem paying that little extra to help them get going.

Re:That's easy

[jridley]

The problem is that everyone's feed is customized. There are tens of thousands of channels available in the US (OK, generally only a few hundred, but on different services in different places). Everyone sets up their own feed. I've got mine at Dish Network, but have excluded the channels I never watch. So I only have about 40 channels worth of data. That works out to about 50K of XML per day of programming. I don't want to start downloading 10,000 channels worth of data because someone MIGHT want to get it from me 3 hours from now.

Re:That's easy

[Anonymous Coward]

The Schedules Direct site is setup as a Non Profit. They are running it like a co op.

Yeah, a non-profit that charges you money to add them to their spam lists. Have you read their latest update to the privacy policy (which just came out this weekend?). This one's great enough that if you don't immediately agree to it, they cancel your account and keep your money. I'm concerned now (considering I gave them my paypal info).

Re:That's easy

[Spokehedz]

Because most of the people making up the 'board of directors' of SchedulesDirect.org are the people on MythTV. They are going to make the data as complete and as compatible as possible.

Your MythTV never had it so good.

Not only that, they are planning on charging substantially less in the coming months. I can't figure out MythTV for the life of me--but if I could, I'd be using these guys.

Re:That's easy

[jfowlie]

That's not quite correct. They have stated that they will refund your money if you don't agree with the Privacy Policy.

Re:That's easy

[Scott Atkinson]

Couldn't agree more.

I'm the news director of a small tv station in upstate New York, and I can back what some other posters have noted.

There is significant (well, as significant as tv gets...) work at the tv station end in compiling and - most of all - updating schedules. I'm guessing it's half of our program director's work week.

There are only a couple of big companies in the schedule game at this point, and my impression is that their money is in keeping everything compiled, updated and orderly - the 'writ large' version of what we do.

So the schedules direct service (which I immediately signed up for, btw) strikes me as a good community solution for keeping a superior dvr, MythTV, from suffering a big setback.

So it's not free as in beer - it does strengthen something that is, and free in other important ways as well.

Scott Atkinson
WWNY TV
Watertown NY

edit - In some part of the threads on this topic, someone opines that broadcasters don't want this because MythTV lets you easily skip commercials and - evil people that we are - we want to head that off at the pass.

Fergit' it. The issue of commercial skipping is too far removed from what we deal with day to day to influence our decisions, (in other words, we don't see the consequences in the bottom line in any way we can measure)and besides, it's not clear that dvrs lead to large scale commercial skipping.

Re:That's easy

[russotto]

Zap2It stopped offering their free service because too many people were reselling it.

So they said. But they refused to name names. Personally, I don't believe it. I think they stopped their free service because it was free.

Re:That's easy

[gral]

BTW, you do NOT give them your PayPal information AT ALL. They link to paypal, and paypal takes care of everything from there.

SchedulesDirect has NO KNOWLEDGE of your paypal information. They just know they got a payment on your account through paypal.

ALSO, the legal stuff was due to items from the Zap2It side of things, AFAICT.

Re:That's easy

[darkonc]

It should also be noted, that the intent of the GPL is to allow the sale of services ancillary to the software. Something like paying for the service of compiling TV schedules on an ongoing basis certainly strikes me as an ancilliary service that it would be more than appropriate to be paying for within the GPL moral space (as well as legal).

Not paying for the service doesn't hobble the software per se. It simply doesn't provide something that the software can use. I should also note that users who don't want to pay are more than free to do the compilation work themselves and use it and/or distribute it with no effective loss to the capability of the software.

Re:That's easy

[Fordiman]

50k/40ch*10,000ch~=12M of download/day

I don't know the propagation math for P2P, but I think a client that keeps itself a couple of days in advance of the listings and self-throttles its total upload rate to 1/50th of the connection's maximum (mine's 3Mb/s, but let's work with 768kb/s for kicks) will still only take 7.5 minutes/programming day (given sufficient seeding) to download and 6:15 to regain a 1:1 share ratio. Keeping in mind that there will be super seeds without the 1/50 bandwidth limitation (the generous), you could resupply the whole 10,000 channels without it hurting your internet connection much at all.

Meanwhile, if you limit your channel downloads to only 40, as you should have the option to do, you still help out the community by resupplying those 50 channels.

Optimization and targeting are key here, of course; the program could split the XML up by channel and compress them individually within a gzip wrap and simply use modified bittorrent for its sharing protocol. Integrated with MythTV, it could even prioritize listings for channels you watch often.

The problem, of course, is freely sourcing the listings; advertising's not an option with something like MythTV - which exists more to skip commercials than anything. Redistribution licenses are expensive enough that dontations probably wouldn't cover it.

Here's an idea, though: A hardware vendor of MythTV boxes can hook it up as a universally free service with the purpose of selling more boxes with this nifty feature built in (rather than having to do all the separated installs). The key here is to write the software up with an incompatible license to MythTV's, so that it has to be sourced from the vendor via apt/yum/whatever rather than simply getting it with MythTV (the result being that the vast majority who prefer ease of use go with buying the prebuilt, fully loaded HTPC rather than rolling their own, while homebrewers can still use it, but we have to jump through another one of those hoops we so love).

Sounds like underhanded manipulation of Open Source licensing, but paying for something with nothing is a business that involves creative and nimble thinking.

Re:That's easy

[Fordiman]

That said, I'd write it myself, but I'm way too busy with the job and with writing a piece of software to automatically download the latest episodes of my favorite shows via BT; I don't own a TV, but there are a couple shows I like.

Re:That's easy

[Guru2Newbie]

Hear, Hear!

I've been using KnoppMyth for about 2-1/2 years now, and the data was free the whole time. Now that a few "bad apples" spoiled the free data-feed, we have to pay. That's too bad, but I don't mind. I'm paying the $2.50/month fee to SchedulesDirect because the freedom that MythTV provides is worth it. I don't care if SchedulesDirect is a non-profit or a for-profit. If they provide the data I need to record/watch the cable shows I want, WHEN I want, that's good enough for me. Thanks, MythTV, KnoppMyth, and SchedulesDirect!

Meh

[biafra]

Not only MythTV users, but people like me using a Replay TV in countries such as Canada are now SOL as well. This sucks, I hope a alternative I can pay for shows up soon.

Re:Meh

[krisp]

Or you can scrape their free tv listings service, which is not going away.

See http://zap2xml.110mb.com/ for a perl-based tvlistings.zap2it.com to xmltv scraper which is a drop-in replacement for the labs scraper.

Re:Meh

[stonedcat]

This is honestly the first time I've ever seen that option. Thank you, seriously thanks. ^_^

Re:Meh

[OECD]

Dang. I was going to comment to the effect that someone would do something like this, and here it is already...

Re:Meh

[LordKronos]

Thanks. I just got that script setup and now have the xml file ready to go. Anyone have any pointers on exactly how to go about getting it into mythtv?

Thanks for posting this. I've been meaning to look for something like this, but have been to busy to get around to it. I really think MythTV dropped the ball a bit here. Yeah, the schedules direct thing is great, but it requires the absolute newest version of mythtv to work. I'm sorry, but my version of mythtv is 2 years old. Yes, I'm aware of the many improvements that have been made, but when it comes to recording my TV programs, I want something that is stable and tested. My mythbox has performed almost 100% flawlessly for 2 years now, and I'm content with what it offers.

I don't have time now to patch it and test it. When I build my next upgraded mythbox (probably early next year), I'll gladly pay for schedules direct. However, for now I'd rather revert to old VCR style manual scheduling than try to patch a box which I know I won't have time to rebuild if things don't go smoothly.

Re:Meh

[LordSnooty]

It's hardly myth's fault if the SD guys demand the latest version. And yes, if you don't upgrade your box you'll miss out on new features - when has this never been the case? I'm sure the differences in interface and DB schema between your version and the latest make it an impossible task to support every single myth release in the last two years.

Re:Meh

[krisp]

Check the mythtv wiki for how to manually update channels using the command line tools. I forget which tool actually does it (i don't run mythtv).

Re:Meh

[LordKronos]

Oh boy!

It's hardly myth's fault if the SD guys demand the latest version.

First of all, the SD team includes 2 people from MythTV. But thats not important. However they want to provide the data is fine. However, there is the end fact that the same basic information has to be there. Start time, end time, date, show name, subtitle, episode description, and a few others. MythTV should have created a simple script to dump the SD data to an xmltv format that could be read by any version of xmltv. As far as I'm aware, backward compatability isn't much of an issue for xmltv. In my experience so far its degraded gracefully. However, the only solution they offer is to upgrade to a version that was just released. They don't even bother to support versions that previous release (from back in April). The only version supported was literally released a couple days before the changeover deadline.

And yes, if you don't upgrade your box you'll miss out on new features - when has this never been the case?

Sorry, but when did I ever ask to get new features? In fact, I outright admitted that, yes, I am missing out on some new features but I don't care. And before you even suggest it, no I don't consider "preventing myself from losing guide data and thus having my PVR turn into a dumb digital VCR" a new feature.

I'm sure the differences in interface and DB schema between your version and the latest make it an impossible task to support every single myth release in the last two years.

They don't need to worry about the schema of my database. The version of mythfilldatabase that came with my mythtv installation knows all about the schema. All it needs is an xmltv formatted xml file.

Now, as I'm going through this process of getting things working, playing with parts of mythtv I've never seen before, and understanding how the whole process works, I'm starting to realize that its probably very possible to just download the new version of XMLTV that handles Schedules Direct data, get that to dump out the xmltv file, and feed that into mythfilldatabase. If so, that is a great solution for people with older versions. However, why couldn't the mythtv guys have announced that as another option for getting the SD data? If you go to the website, they only suggest one solution to the problem: upgrade to the 0.20.2 version.

Re:Meh

[LordKronos]

Thanks. Since my post, I already figured out how. mythfilldatabase with the --file parameter.

Only problem now is getting the channels working correctly. First they all came in with screwed up names. I corrected all the names to be like they were before, and now it appears the names are conflicting with the old channels of the same callsign, so most of the data isn't showing up. After I work that out, the last issue (I hope) is that the season passes which are set to record off a specific channel seem not to translate over to the channels because they have a different internal id.

I know you said you don't use mythtv, so it means nothing to you...just saying in case anyone else follows this thread.

Re:Meh

[LordKronos]

Quick update...everything seems to work now. The season passes weren't an issue. Once I got the channel names and callsigns corrected (using mythfilldatabase with the --manual option) and then eliminated the conflict with the old channels (I could probably delete them from the DB, but I didn't want to do that just in case, so I just updated their callsigns to prefix with OLD-). All the season passes resolved automatically, so they must be tracking based on channel number and call sign rather than the internal id.

Re:Meh

[LordKronos]

One more followup. I feel dumb for never realizing this (or maybe I knew it at one point and forgot), but you can edit the channels through the mythweb interface. That would be the easiest way to delete the old channels and rename the new. Oh well.

Re: Meh

[The Faywood Assassin]

Import it into Mythtv with mythfilldatabase: http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/index.php/Mythfilldatabase

Look at # 3.2.3 3. Run mythfilldatabase with the --file flag

Re:Meh

[Ed Avis]

Darn it, the whole point of making the direct XML feed was to reduce load on the website (and general hassle) caused by scraping HTML - in other words zap2it actively asked people to stop scraping their site, and worked hard to provide an alternative. If they've decided they don't want to continue with the XML service then it's not for us (the users) to go against that decision.

Watch

[Anonymous Coward]

TV

Re:Watch

[waferhead]

I do, on MY schedule.

I'd love to watch several shows in prime time, but my boss would be pissed at me sitting in the breakroom all evening...

Incorrect

[FST]

FTFA:

Also, the Zap2it TV Listings are not being shut down -- there has been some confusion about this in comments on other message boards. Submitter: did you even bother to read TFA (which is around 3 sentences, at that)?

Re:Incorrect

[Deltaspectre]

Not even that, but Zap2it is still providing service... I assume until your normal account expires and not as of Sept 1.

Re:Incorrect

[Anonymous Coward]

Zap2it LABS is shutting down their free XML listing service. Zap2it TV listings are a different service, and something completely different. Just like reading TFA and comprehending it.

Re:Incorrect

[smchris]

They provided a couple weeks of data so there's still a week in the database.

Yup, transferring service is on the "to do" list for a lot of people this week, I imagine.

Re:Incorrect

[Lumpy]

and there are already 5 web scrapers for zap2it out already. the Poster I guess hates google's new ad's so much he cant search for anything. even the guys on the gbpvr board have a crapload of links to the free screen scrapers.

it's not hard, many of the solutions have been out for 2-3 weeks already. I tried one of the screenscrapers but I prefer to pay for SD as I can bitch about bad listing data and they will try to get the problem fixed so that it doesnt happen again.

Re:Incorrect

[LordKronos]

No they aren't. They did keep the service up for several days after the deadline, but it stopped working almost a week ago (even though my subscription is still good until the 20th). Mythfilldatabase is now saying

Resolving datadirect.webservices.zap2it.com... failed: Host not found.

Schedules Direct?

[Elgonn]

http://www.schedulesdirect.org/

Re:Schedules Direct?

[garcia]

Uhh, from the blurb (emphasis mine):

Now that Linux users, and most PVR users for that matter, are nearing the end of their last fetched TV guide, what free alternatives exist that can replace this much-needed service?"

From Schedules Direct's website's main page:

The cost of the service is currently US$15/3 months with a 7 day trial. We hope to lower the price by the end of the term, so recurring subscriptions are not yet offered.

What part of that are you confused about? Oh, and congratulate me on my 5000th Slashdot post, thanks.

Re:Schedules Direct?

[empaler]

Jeez, and I feel I've wasted too much time here, with my 1378 previous postings.

Erm, gz?

Re:Schedules Direct?

[jerkychew]

Updating Mythdora 4.0 to use SchedulesDirect
Updating MythTV to use SchedulesDirect

Re:Schedules Direct?

[Cid Highwind]

...and I though 1240 in 9 years was about enough!

Re:Schedules Direct?

[shmlco]

So let me guess. The LABS part of the company provided free listings in order to develop and test for its paid service. Unfortunately, too many Linux free-as-in-free types latched on to the development service's URL, used it for their home-made myth-boxes, and took the whole thing to its knees.

And now they're crying because the service they abused is being shut down and no one else will give them what they want for free. Close enough?

Re:Schedules Direct?

[LordKazan]

Zap2it said that mythtv was NOT the problem, and was very cooperative with the mythtv Devs in setting up SchedulesDirect and getting things working (in fact listing downloads for SD subscribers actually take place on TMS servers right now).

The problem was comercial organizations getting the listings free and making a profit off using those listings.

Re: Original topic, if you can't handle a few bucks a month for RELIABLE listing data with customer service then you're a fucknut

Re:Schedules Direct?

[shmlco]

Ah. So why then aren't we crying about content owners who're trying to control what happens with their content?

I could be stating the obvious, but.......

[fluffybacon]

Television?

Re:I could be stating the obvious, but.......

[Anonymous Coward]

MythTV does not work that way! Good Night!

Re:I could be stating the obvious, but.......

[DogDude]

That's what I thought. Honestly, who still watches TV?

Re:I could be stating the obvious, but.......

[Anonymous Coward]

That's what I thought. Honestly, who still watches TV? The people that upload those torrents for you to download and watch (with commercials conveniently cut out for you) need those schedules to record the shows for you so that you don't have to "watch tv" anymore.

Re:I could be stating the obvious, but.......

[watchingeyes]

Ummm, the vast majority of people in the United States and Canada perhaps....

I'm the only person I know who doesn't have cable tv.

Re:I could be stating the obvious, but.......

[toddestan]

Really? I know a lot of people without cable. Most of them have satellite though.

I do know two other people who don't watch TV. I expect it to become more and more common as the quality of TV declines and the price goes up.

Re:I could be stating the obvious, but.......

[watchingeyes]

Whoops, should have worded that better. I meant to include satellite in that.

Re:I could be stating the obvious, but.......

[Torvaun]

In eight days when the new season of Heroes starts, I do...

Re:I could be stating the obvious, but.......

[aichpvee]

Can there be only one true Slackware user? If that is the case you'd better keep your sword handy.

Re:I could be stating the obvious, but.......

[Apro im]

I want to mod it up for the reference, but sadly, I am bereft of mod points.

Re:I could be stating the obvious, but.......

[Anonymous Coward]

MythTV can get the program information from the TV card if you've got a DVB stream (the European digital TV standard) which contains EPG (Electronic Program Guide) information.

Re:I could be stating the obvious, but.......

[Professor_UNIX]

Nobody watches TV. Shit, I don't even own a TV, I just read books and debate about modern culture on the Internet for entertainment. Americans stopped watching TV around 1994.

Readily Available Alternative

[chubs730]

TV Guide Channel? ;)

Why free?

[Anonymous Coward]

What's wrong with paying a couple bucks to get the listing data? Someone somewhere had to pay to provide the service. I don't see why everything, everywhere has to be free, free, free.

Oh damnit - I forgot. This is slashdot. Paying for stuff = bad.

Re:Why free?

[timmarhy]

I pay for it already when i'm forced to watch crumby ads for panty liners and erection problems.

Re:Why free?

[Anonymous Coward]

Because it was previously available for free? Because most people (not people on slashdot, but the population in general) didn't know about *this* service that just expired. So maybe there is another free one not many people know about: that's what the submitter was asking for. And why pay for something that you can legally get free?

Not to mention I'm 90% sure Europe gets *their* TV guide listings for MythTV and the like... for free. It isn't like the buissinesses offering this service are paying for the information... they pay for server fees, and that's about all.

Now... what's wrong with asking if a free alternative exists? He wasn't *demanding* free services, he wasn't complaining about the lack-therof, he wasn't even saying he won't shell out $5/month for the listing. He was saying he'd prefer to not pay an extra $5 a month if he could get the same thing for free.

Re:Why free?

[Bing Tsher E]

You use a TV listing service that forces you to watch ads before you can see the listings?

Re:Why free?

[Bandman]

Well, I'm not saying they should have to, but it would be nice if this kind of information was provided by the company pumping data into your cablemodem. At least this way you wouldn't have to worry about getting the right feed. It would automagically be right.

Hell, I might even pay an extra few bucks a month for that.

Re:Why free?

[Anonymous Coward]

"MythTV is free, what don't you understand?!"

Well, now it's not free

The software, itself, remains both gratis and libre. It also retains features (commercial skip, show sharing and archiving) not in many proprietary PVRs.

and it's also difficult to use

The usability of MythTV is at least as good as many proprietary PVRs. There have been articles on both the discoverability of how to use the system and the low number of buttons needed to perform common functions.

Re:Why free?

[tiananmen tank man]

If they dont want me to know what is on tv, I just wont watch it.

Re:Why free?

[Petrushka]

Oh damnit - I forgot. This is slashdot. Paying for stuff = bad.

And where in this discussion do you see anyone making the claim that anyone is entitled to this service for free? Where do you see anyone assuming that paying for stuff = bad?

I look up the page and I see dozens of posts advocating a service which is not free. Take your stereotypes somewhere else, you contemptible anonymous coward.

Re:Why free?

[schon]

What's wrong with paying a couple bucks to get the listing data? Nothing. However the problem I have with SD is their "Agreement" - in order to get the listings, you have to agree to some pretty damn onerous things, including "not doing anything to piss off anyone at Tribune Media Services, even if you didn't know it would."

This is a completely untenable clause, because they don't tell you what things might piss them off, nor do they explain their relationship

For example, complaining on /. (or any other forum) could theoretically make TMS unhappy, which would cause you to be in violation of the "agreement" - and yet you wouldn't know it until after you get your account terminated (or worse, dragged into court.)

I have no problem paying for it (in fact, I had my credit card out to sign up), but it's some seriously fscked-up shit - too much for me.

Re:Why free?

[thejeffer]

And let's face it, nothing will create an erection problem like a panty liner full of crumbs.

Re:Why free?

[Reaperducer]

Where do you see anyone assuming that paying for stuff = bad?

You must be new here.

Re:Why free?

[Jinjuku]

Uh, this is /. isn't it? Paying for Stuff=Bad is the unofficial mascot around here. Only thing worse than griping about something not being free any longer is a company protecting their IP by copyright then patent and then trademark. Pretty much in that order from what I have been able to gather.

Re:Why free?

[gral]

I will give you the possibility MythTV is difficult to set up... but to use?

Using MythTV is not at all a problem to use.

MythTV is still free. The listings, if you want to deal with screen scrapers, etc, are still free. Once the traffic from the scrapers increases, I am sure TVGuide, and others will change their sites periodically to mess them up.

I prefer to pay $5 a month, to get the schedules. Easy to setup, and not too bad on the price. BTW, the more that sign up to SchedulesDirect, the lower the price will ultimately be.

Re:Why free?

[watchingeyes]

Ummmm, I don't think the vast majority of people have many problems with companies protecting their "IP" (I hate that term, it is at best misleading), but more with companies ABUSING it (as in the RIAA and its members, SCO [although they don't really own any], NTP and the like).

Although I could be wrong. I tend to avoid reading Slashdot comments except on select posts that interest me. Too much white noise, not enough insight.

Re:Why free?

[jt2377]

"Information want to be free"?

Re:Why free?

[fishbowl]

"This is a completely untenable clause, because they don't tell you what things might piss them off, nor do they explain their relationship"

Then it's not enforceable so what's the problem?

Re:Why free?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Information wants to be free"?

Nahhh...Information wants to get into Imagination's pants, but is worried that Communication will find out & go all "crazy anthropomorphic" on him.

Re:Why free?

[Anonymous Coward]

However the problem I have with SD is their "Agreement" - in order to get the listings, you have to agree to some pretty damn onerous things, including "not doing anything to piss off anyone at Tribune Media Services, even if you didn't know it would."

The agreement refers to Tribune as "supplier." A quick grep showed no unreasonable clauses (but IANAL). Can you please give a specific quote from the agreement that troubles you?

Re:Why free?

[Anonymous Coward]

Definitely -- while the person who made that comment ("Where do you see anyone assuming that paying for stuff = bad?") may not hold the point of view that paying = bad, just take note of the trend in slashdot stories. Any time anything is mentioned that either is A) commercialization of open source projects, B) charging money for a previously free service or product, C) microsoft, the slashdot masses grab their electronic torches and storm around shouting about how unfair or evil it is.

So yes, they must definitely be new here...

Re:Why free?

[Anonymous Coward]

USA court system. It doesn't matter that they can't actually enforce it on you, you'll first need to bleed money out of every orifice to pay a lawyer to prove they can't enforce it on you. And even if you do win (likely), you're probably not going to get back the money you just lost. And certainly not the time wasted.
And the waste can be massive if they go for procedural trickery like SCO's lawyers did (and still do). In other words, just because they can't get a court to enforce the clause doesn't mean they can't just hurt you anyway through the legal system if you do break.

Re:Why free?

[schon]

Can you please give a specific quote from the agreement that troubles you? If you really read the Agreement, I'm not sure how you missed this - the clause I am concerned about (from http://www.schedulesdirect.org/sagreement ) is this:

You shall not [...] engage in any act that, directly or indirectly, would jeopardize, limit, or interfere in any manner with the operation of Company's Licensed Data service.

Re:Why free?

[WalkingBear]

No, you do not pay for a listing service from Zap2it when you watch commercials on the shows you record with your MythTV. Those commercials pay for the show you are watching. Also, unless you're a Nielsen family or using some system that reports home what you're watching, then you're not paying anything to anyone. You're just wasting your time watching commercials.

Enjoy.

Scott

Re:Why free?

[Schraegstrichpunkt]

In other words, no executing a denial-of-service attack against their service?

Re:Why free?

[Anonymous Coward]

I pay for it already when i'm forced to watch crumby ads for panty liners and erection problems. I'm a little confused, are you saying that when you record programs and watch them back you watch the commercials? If not then you aren't paying for them by your very definition. I would imagine that the tv networks would be happy to provide you with tv listings if they could ensure that you watched the commercials, but seeing as how most of slashdot seems to be opposed to paying for anything in any form, I'm doubting that would be met with much enthusiasm.

Re:Why free?

[rtechie]

Because we *ARE* paying for it.

God invented this thing called "advertising" a way back. The deal was that you could get media FOR FREE, or at a greatly reduced price, by submitting your eyes and ears to advertising. Subscription TV was certainly POSSIBLE in the early days, but broadcasters realized that they could make more money by using a "free with advertising" model. Now they're making even MORE money because they've convinced people to submit to advertising AND pay.

We shouldn't have to pay for listings because we're already submitting to advertising. Take out the advertising, and I'll start paying. That's why I don't mind paying for HBO (which STILL has advertising). I *DO* mind paying for commercial TV, which is why I don't feel the least bit bad about stripping commercials out of shows I watch. I pay for listings. I pay for the satellite TV. I'll be dammed if I'm going to watch the advertising too.

Remember, my goal as a consumer is to get the stuff I want for as little as possible, ideally free. Producers don't give a fuck about me. They simply see me a a bag of money, and they're trying to get as much out of that bag as possible. Tribune Media is hardly starved for cash, and frankly, they're an evil company. They've been buying up lots of local newspapers and wrecking them. So I really hope I'm stealing from them of fucking them over somehow by stealing listings.

www.schedulesdirect.org

[stoneymonster]

It's subscription, run by the mythtv dev's. Right now it's $15 for 3mos, but they are hoping to change that to $20/yr if they get enough sign-ups.

Re:www.schedulesdirect.org

[biafra]

Awesome, thank you! I don't mind $5/mo for listings.

Re:www.schedulesdirect.org

[SeaFox]

Right now it's $15 for 3mos, but they are hoping to change that to $20/yr if they get enough sign-ups.

Wow, they're not exactly marketing geniuses are they? Announce plans to make a very large discount on you service as soon as enough people sign up at the original inflated price? Yeah, that'll pull a huge number of customers in at your launch.

Re:www.schedulesdirect.org

[gral]

If you read the site they talk in detail about their plans. $15/3 months with NO renewal, because PayPal doesn't handle renewal changes, and they are VERY positive they will be able to lower the cost once they know what fees and how many people they have.

They are already at the "Break Even" point, now the cost will go down, because they are setup as a not for profit. If they MAKE a profit, there are charges and fees they will have to pay.

The leads on the SchedulesDirect site haven't even made a dime. They don't want to. They are trying to provide a needed service, and are doing a great job at it.

Re:www.schedulesdirect.org

[mrchaotica]

Unless both I'm misunderstanding the idea and the SchedulesDirect people are really stupid, once critical mass is reached all the initial people will be switched to the cheaper plan too. Besides, there's no such thing as "signing up" to some kind of subscription; at the moment everything is non-recurring: you pay for 90 days now, then in 90 days you (and they) will re-evaluate what they can afford to charge.

Re:www.schedulesdirect.org

[swillden]

Right now it's $15 for 3mos, but they are hoping to change that to $20/yr if they get enough sign-ups.

Wow, they're not exactly marketing geniuses are they? Announce plans to make a very large discount on you service as soon as enough people sign up at the original inflated price? Yeah, that'll pull a huge number of customers in at your launch.

That's because they're not trying to make a profit, and they're just passing on the reality that they'll have to have a sizable subscriber base in order to defray their fixed costs enough to reduce the fee. They expect that their target audience will understand these issues. Not only that, but both prices are low enough that the costs aren't going to be an issue for their target market.

Re:www.schedulesdirect.org

[wizbit]

They are already at break-even point on the $5/mo plan. Since the Zap2It shutdown became official, they likely will have a very large influx of other subscribers looking to transition to the new schedule service. They're in effect hedging their bets that the price will come down to $20/yr due to the volume of additional signups in the next couple months. Being that they have a very large list of supported apps already, this is entirely likely.

Re:www.schedulesdirect.org

[Ariven]

Paypay does do recurring charges.. its just hard to change an existing recurring charge after it is established.. so it would mean people would have to unsubscribe and resub under a new plan.

Re:www.schedulesdirect.org

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, they're not exactly marketing geniuses are they?

You're right. They should keep the price cut a secret. Then, when it is announced, wheel 'round like an angry Steve Jobs and announce a hasty $100 rebate for anyone who has already purchased an iPhone at the inflated price.

Wait, what were we talking about again?

Re:www.schedulesdirect.org

[fishtorte]

If they MAKE a profit, there are charges and fees they will have to pay. If profit ever appears imminent, all they have to do is increase their operating costs.
--
This is not legal advice. You are not my client. I am not a lawyer.

Re:www.schedulesdirect.org

[Swift2001]

Yeah, they shoud have done like the iPhone. They-- Well, the difference is, you don't tell anybody you're going to be cutting prices once you get a ball of money to defray start-up costs.

Re:www.schedulesdirect.org

[Lally Singh]

It's not an iPhone! It's a service. For the first few months it costs more, and then it costs less. When they announce the $20/yr service, it'll start *after* the time you've already got running.

Sheesh.

Re:www.schedulesdirect.org

[gfxguy]

I think $5/month is fantastic (compare to Tivo at what... $13? $14?).

The ONLY drawback I see is that a lot of people experiment with Myth and decide to stick with Tivo or something else, so you end up having to pay to try it out, but that's still a whole lot better than with the commercial offerings.

Re:www.schedulesdirect.org

[gral]

Understand. I am giving them the benefit of the doubt for now. As a matter of fact, I think they should be getting paid for their work anyway. SD had to put together alot of pieces in a short amount of time to get this to work.

Re:www.schedulesdirect.org

[gral]

That is what I was trying to convey, guess I failed. ;-)

Thanks for the clarification.

Re:www.schedulesdirect.org

[Schraegstrichpunkt]

They are already at the "Break Even" point, now the cost will go down, because they are setup as a not for profit. If they MAKE a profit, there are charges and fees they will have to pay.

Being a not-for-profit or a non-profit organization doesn't mean you have to operate at a loss. You just can't pay your profits as dividends to your shareholders.

Re:www.schedulesdirect.org

[iocat]

This is a very important point and life lession people should understand. Non-profits themselves frequently don't, and then go out of business. Smart non-profits make good profits, save some for a rainy day and pour the rest back into whatever they do.

Re:www.schedulesdirect.org

[OwnedByTwoCats]

The Film Society back when I went to college did the non-profit thing right. They turned enough profit on their popular Friday and Saturday night films that they would run foreign and independent movies on Tuesday evenings. Then they ploughed the remaining surplus into better projection and sound equipment. When they were done with that, they started running a free series on Sunday afternoons. Then I graduated, and no more film society movies for me.

They're still available for a small charge.

[binaryspiral]

The service is available for a quarterly charge of $15...

http://www.schedulesdirect.org/

Titan TV

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

One option is Titan TV listings. They are free (add supported) via a Web interface and are designed to work with PVR devices.

Re:Titan TV

[jbr439]

The web interface doesn't appear to support Canadian listings. This makes it unusable for a number of people (like me). I'm using Schedules Direct now; and as someone else aptly put it, I can think of worse places to send my money.

Re:Titan TV

[vieux schnock]

I also looked at Titan and my Canadian postal code was considered "wrong". Now, I support SD. It's a great feat from the guys that build it.

Re:Titan TV

[Perseid]

TitanTV, as far as I know, doesn't support downloads from the likes of MythTV. Does MythTV support .tvvi files?

Re:Titan TV

[Constantine XVI]

If it becomes necessary, yes it will.

Re:Titan TV

[Molochi]

I "use" titan tv sorta. It's what came with my winfast card. But it played this (really loud) sound file whenever I tried to use it to change channels. It's wrong alot too. Hugely annoying. So I just program the PVR for time and channel manually.

Re:Titan TV

[Anonymous Coward]

TitanTV offers a data feed service. EyeTV users in the US have been using it for years.
_

You'd think the TV stations would do this free

[The_Fire_Horse]

Why wouldnt the TV stations provide this for free - it is the ultimate free advertising pushed straight to the customer.

Instead they treat the listings like corporate bloody secrets - would you PAY to get junk mail posted to your letterbox?

Re:You'd think the TV stations would do this free

[uncreativ]

Not sure why parent is rated -1. It's not an offensive or irrelevant point to make. I have honestly wondered the same thing--why don't the content companies want to distribute their own scheduling information at their own expense? I can only guess for a couple reasons:

1. Somehow people got duped into paying for it--why ruin a good thing, eh?
2. Content companies don't like PVRs for their commercial skipping capabilities, and out of time slot views aren't properly counted in ratings for their shows. Both problems affect what networks can charge for advertising.

Re:You'd think the TV stations would do this free

[BarneyL]

They want you to see their listings.
They probably don't want you to see them buried amongst everyone else's listings though. The moment an external source becomes comprehenive people are no longer forced to tune to their channel or visit their web site to find out what is going on.
I doubt it works but most broadcasters seem to be locked into the old style attitudes that people still simply tune into their favourite channel and stay there for the evening.

Re:You'd think the TV stations would do this free

[nwbvt]

Well, lets try using our brains and thinking about this for a second. TV stations do get paid for having people watch their program, but that is contingent on those people also watching ads during the commercial break. When the show is recorded, the viewer is able to skip the ads entirely. So what motivation is supposed to exist to get the media companies to publish their TV listings in a format that can be read by applications like MythTV?

Re:You'd think the TV stations would do this free

[Cro Magnon]

I'm busy. I don't always have time to sit in the chair during PrimeTime, and I certainly can't watch any non-PrimeTime shows live. If I watch a recorded show, I might see some of the ads, and I would certainly at least see bits and pieces when I FF past. If I DON'T watch the show, I don't see ANY of the ads. Maybe the networks should use THEIR brains (if any).

Re:You'd think the TV stations would do this free

[russotto]

It's worse than that. The TV stations PAY TMS to accept their data. TMS then collects money from subscribers (cable companies, etc) to distribute the data they were paid to accept. TMS is making money from both ends.

If you get digital TV over the air, you can get the listings that way as well. But for some reason, those listings aren't all that accurate or complete compared to the TMS listings.

Unfortunately, that's my only choice as the Schedules Direct agreement is a horrid piece of garbage which makes pretty much any use of the data a violation of the contract.

Re:You'd think the TV stations would do this free

[nwbvt]

So you honestly believe that the off-chance that you, Cro Magnon, might see an occasional ad on a recorded TV show makes up for the thousands other people with DVRs who would have instead watched TV live (and who, apparently unlike you, are technologically competent enough to skip through commercials)?

Re:You'd think the TV stations would do this free

[mrjackson2000]

some do, i can get most of my guide for the OTA Digital via info in the digital stream (myth calls it EIT, not sure if thats a myth term or not) but it's only a few hours ahead and not all the channels support it.

Re:You'd think the TV stations would do this free

[Cro Magnon]

I honestly believe that many of those thousands of people who have DVRs got them because, like me, they don't have time to watch their favorite shows live, and if they couldn't record them they wouldn't see them at all, meaning that the advertisers would lose any chance at those eyeballs. And most of them, like me, do see bits & pieces of ads at whatever speed FF goes.

Myriad options exist

[Anonymous Coward]

Torrents, Democracy, youtube, vimeo, revver...to name a few.

Re:Myriad options exist

[chris234]

None of which are schedule providers. Try again.

MythTV already has alternatives. WTF!?

[urbanriot]

MythTV already has an alternative with Schedules Direct - http://www.mythtv.org/ . How did this make front page?

Re:MythTV already has alternatives. WTF!?

[Anonymous Coward]

because the submitter asked for FREE alternatives

Re:MythTV already has alternatives. WTF!?

[urbanriot]

Oops, good point. I need to RTFM :/

because the submitter asked for FREE alternatives

How to get the TV listings the Linux way

[Anonymous Coward]

1. Locate each TV channel's listings webpage,
2. Write up a bash script full of wget calls and parse all that incoming HTML with awk,
3. ????
4. Profit!!

Re:How to get the TV listings the Linux way

[Anonymous Coward]

I understand your post was meant to be funny, but I don't think it's such a bad idea. Only one person has to do the work, and it could be distributed with mythtv.

Re:How to get the TV listings the Linux way

[thc69]

Actually, the first thing I thought of was to just write a script to parse the data from any of a million web listings services like http://tvlistings.zap2it.com/tvlistings or http://www.tvguide.com/Listings or any of the others...I think it's so easy that even _I_ could do it.

Re:How to get the TV listings the Linux way

[schon]

You don't need to.

I found this while searching for an alternative to Schedules Direct. It's not perfect (there's some minor glitches in the episode numbers) but it does work.

Re:How to get the TV listings the Linux way

[jimicus]

Two minor problems with that:

1. You assume every TV channel operates a website with a reasonably sensible, parseable TV listings page.
2. You assume that the number of channels you'd have to maintain awk scripts for is relatively small. Once it gets beyond a certain size, you'll spend longer maintaining the awk scripts to account for every change than you will watching the TV.

That may be the case in some countries, but here in the UK (and I suspect the US, probably to a greater extent), TV is becoming very fragmented with so many different channels which tend to have only a couple of good shows each so you'd have a lot of work to do.

Re:How to get the TV listings the Linux way

[RingDev]

That's exactly what I found 2 years ago while working on my PDA based remote control (control your Windows MCE box from a Pocket PC on a wireless network. Volume, playback, record, channel, TV listings, schedules, etc... whether you are in front of the TV, or at work)

Many sites were already using Flash based interfaces for displaying listings, and others were so convoluted, it was totally not worth it. Zap2it Labs was a great solution. And had I stuck to my capstone project, I would have been working hard to convert it to one of the pay for service offerings.

-Rick

Re:How to get the TV listings the Linux way

[Cyko_01]

wouldn't it make more sense to get them from the cable/satellite provider's html guide instead of from each channel? I know Cogeco in Canada has one - quite good actually - it includes episode details and everything! This way you would select your cable/satellite provider, download & installs the script and you're all set!
------------------
Cogeco TV Guide

Pay for SchedulesDirect--they're good people

[Noksagt]

Suck it up and use Schedules Direct just like everyone else. It isn't free. The opening cost is $15/3 month (with a 7 day trial). However, compiling schedules is not free. SD purchases them Tribune Media Services. But SD is a nonprofit company & they are free/open source friendly, having been formed by people involved with MythTV, XMLTV, and MacProgramGuide. I can think of worse places to send my money.

Free/open source PVRs are more functional than most proprietary competitors & the software itself will always be not only gratis, but free as in speech. If you want the cheapest possible service, you'll do better to get something with a lifetime subscription to guide content. But I prefer my freedom to a full pocketbook.

It'd be nice if the guide data would eventually become free/open. But who's going to provide it?

If you don't like SD, I guess you can try their competitor (if they ever release something for Linux). Or screen scrape for no cost.

Re:Pay for SchedulesDirect--they're good people

[Hatta]

$5 a month is a lot to spend just to see what's on.

Re:Pay for SchedulesDirect--they're good people

[TheRaven64]

However, compiling schedules is not free. About that... why not? It's in the channel's best interest if people know what it's showing so they know to watch it and not a competitor. Why don't they each make their listings available in a standard format so that all you need to do is know the address where each one is published.

Re:Pay for SchedulesDirect--they're good people

[Anonymous Coward]

But this service isn't "just to see what's on." It is to provide robust listings for automated scheduling and program guides.

If you just want to see what's on, check for free on your content provider's guide channel or on any one of the numerous websites that provide this info. Or flip channels.

Re:Pay for SchedulesDirect--they're good people

[OverlordQ]

Then look in your TV Guide, comes free with your paper (if you get one).

Re:Pay for SchedulesDirect--they're good people

[Noksagt]

If getting immediate total cooperation from everybody in a decentralized system at once was easy, we'd save a lot more than $5/month for our cable listings. Tribune Media Systems and Gemstar, who are the only two companies to compile the listings have a financial incentives to continue charging for the service. Their services fulfill the needs of a very large percentage of the customers of the cable channels. The channels won't take an action that costs them money & reaps little return. Even if there would be a greater return, not every station would make the switch & some would get it wrong.

Re:Pay for SchedulesDirect--they're good people

[edbob]

Because it is decidedly NOT in the broadcaster's best interest at this time. MythTV (as well as other open-source DVR solutions) are well known for their ease of skipping commercials. The last thing that a broadcaster wants to do is make it easier to not view an advertisement. If a new model were to appear that did not depend on commercial interruptions that could be skipped, we might see more cooperation from broadcasters. The only part that doesn't make sense is for pay TV that does not include commercials (not sure if these exist anymore since I get my television OTA).

Re:Pay for SchedulesDirect--they're good people

[CastrTroy]

If you want something that's not tied into some specific hardware (ala Tivo) but that still provides free monthly listings, and the ability to extend it with your own code, try out SageTV. It works on Windows, Linux, and Mac, and is extremely easy to set up. It's stable, and has great support. Oh, and as per the point of this post, it include free TV listings.

Re:Pay for SchedulesDirect--they're good people

[Dachannien]

The more people that sign up for Schedules Direct, the lower their costs will be in the future (or something along those lines). They've already stated that their intention is to have a much lower fee for listings after the first quarter, but that the $15 cost for the first three months was necessary since their organization is just starting up.

Personally, I find the listings useful enough that I'd (just barely) pay the $5 a month, but I would hold them to a much higher QoS if I had to keep paying that much.

BTW, one of the SD guys mentioned that they found out that Tribune Media Services, and other TV schedule aggregators, do a lot more than just put together already-available data. They have to cross-reference syndication feeds with local schedules, they have to come up with episode descriptions, and in general, there's work and some original content arising from that. Even local stations have no idea what episode they're showing on a particular day - they just get the episodes from the distributor, possibly with promos, and then run them. TMS already knows how to do this stuff, and they had the infrastructure to distribute it already, but they weren't interested in managing the business of selling the listings. SD acts as a broker in that sense, paying TMS for the listings and collecting the individual fees from the users.

Re:Pay for SchedulesDirect--they're good people

[Anonymous Coward]

Printed TV listings are great for anyone living in the 1970s with a VCR. For someone with a modern DVR that's supposed to automate the recording process, following the skittish rescheduling habits of several dozen channels... not so much.

Re:Pay for SchedulesDirect--they're good people

[Anonymous Coward]

Not only that, but my paper's listing only shows primetime in detail, and only the major channels for day/nighttime. And I pay well more than $5/mo for it. If I had a pvr I'd have no problem subscribing to a listing service that makes it work.

Re:Pay for SchedulesDirect--they're good people

[Reaperducer]

It's also very labor-intensive. Some stations submit their listings by fax or individual e-mails that must then be re-typed into the system. With several thousand TV stations in North America, it's not an easy task. And yes, there are still plenty of TV stations in the United States that don't even have basic internet access, either because of cost, lack of need, or remote location (dialup is their only option).

Re:Pay for SchedulesDirect--they're good people

[Anonymous Coward]

Automatic -1 moderation for mysoginists who mis/over-use the word "rape."

Dude, progressive chicks are not going to sleep with you no matter how much you suck up to them.

Re:Pay for SchedulesDirect--they're good people

[Anonymous Coward]

Counter intuitive as it may be, DVR viewers actually push ad ratings up. At least according to Nielsens data.

See http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/06/01/162624 5
and the article it references: http://www.usatoday.com/money/media/2007-06-01-nie lsens-usat_N.htm

Re:Pay for SchedulesDirect--they're good people

[fishbowl]

Some ads, when they are extremely funny or otherwise entertaining, are content, and get watched over and over.

Not sure it's correlated to purchasing though.

I lost count of the number of times I've heard someone whistle the Enzyte tune. But who'd buy Enzyte except as a gag gift or something?

Re:Pay for SchedulesDirect--they're good people

[JoeF]

Yup, I appreciate them stepping up when Zap2IT announced they were shutting the free service down. And I happily paid the $5/month. I want a reliable service, not some crappy scraping.

Re:Pay for SchedulesDirect--they're good people

[grahamm]

Because it is decidedly NOT in the broadcaster's best interest at this time. . So why in Europe, Australia, and probably many other places as well is it almost universal for digital TV to include the EPG (Electronic Programme Guide) in the transmission? I suspect that North America may be the 'odd one out' in not providing an on-air TV guide. Apart from anything else, the EPG has an advantage over printed listings in that it can be kept up-to-date with schedule changes, even last minute ones caused by (for example) live events overrunning or extended news bulletins.

Re:Pay for SchedulesDirect--they're good people

[rusty0101]

actually, TV stations usually get a list of the shows that will be provided, and a schedule of when local commercial breaks are available. It's up to them to insert their own commercials in those breaks. In some cases they also get windows where they can replace the national commercial if the people that bought the time for that commercial didn't require the local to redistribute it as part of the network contract. (That's why you sometimes see the end of a local car dealer's commercial end up with a close clip of either a time life music type commercial, or one of the many other companies that are looking to get some add time on when a local might not be able to sell a time slot. (some of the bed commercials, and commercials for products that often have full blown infomercials as well.

The technology to provide schedule information to consumers is there. EIT is fully capable of telling your system that a show is re-scheduled, or is being preempted, etc. Whether the local carrier or national distributer elects to make use of that feature is part of the resulting issue. Another part is whether your equipment can handle the information. I.e. did you build the logic for your PVR such that when TBS preempts 'The Time Machine' for the Braves game that's running a bit longer than scheduled, and switches to 'The Time Machine' already in progress, that the PVR will recognize the issue, ignore that episode and look for a different showing? Granted this presumes that the local Cable provider passes such information on, but hopefully one of these days that sort of stuff will start happening. (Skepticism says 'dream on')

Easy.

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.tvguide.com/listings/default.aspx

Edit it for your location. It's not embedded into MythTV?

So what. It gives you what you need.

Forgive my ignorance, but....

[313373_bot]

from where was zap2it getting its guide information? Isn't it possible to fetch it directly from, say, the tv networks themselves? If not, why?

<rant>
As far as I see it, digital tv has been a trojan horse for anti-consumer abuse: broadcast flag, encryption now this? How long until they completely forbid recording (or make it a "premium service" - read paid, DRM'd privilege?)
</rant>

Re:Forgive my ignorance, but....

[Anonymous Coward]

digital tv has been a trojan horse for anti-consumer abuse: broadcast flag, encryption now this?

How is a company no longer giving away something it cost them to produce anti-consumer abuse? Even if compiling the data for every zip code & TV service (there's OTA, Cable, FIOS, and 3 satellite providers in my zip code alone) were free, bandwidth to supply every MythTV/ReplayTV/etc box in the world isn't.

Making foolish generalizations hurts the cause. Get a grip before begining you rant next time.

Re:Forgive my ignorance, but....

[speaker of the truth]

Its anti-consumer abuse to make a law forcing companies to produce products with a broadcast flag. The fact that the government got involved doesn't make it any less abusive.

Re:Forgive my ignorance, but....

[Anonymous Coward]

As long as somebody somewhere is getting this guide information from somewhere (without stringent licensing conditions), why not set up a BitTorrent RSS feed, so that it can be spread about freely? It doesn't even matter if there are multiple versions for the same day, so long as the content is mainly the same.

By the way, this is a peculiarly US problem - in most other places the schedule information is free, and is often broadcast along with the TV signal.

Re:Forgive my ignorance, but....

[Anonymous Coward]

The grandparent AC criticized the characterization of the removal of the gratis guide data as consumer abuse.

He did not, as parent tries to counter, defend the broadcast flag.

XMLTV

[DrXym]

As long as there are TV listings in the world, there is the means to rip them. One example is XMLTV. This rips listings from certain sites and produces an XML schedule file that you can feed into MythTV. I assume that once a free service disappears that you'll see scripts for XMLTV that do pretty much the same.

Re:XMLTV

[UncleTogie]

Might want to check their wiki next time; the North American grabber USED Zap2it.

Re:XMLTV

[DrXym]

Yes, but there's nothing to stop them writing a new one. The grabber can point to any url. I'm sure there are literally hundreds of TV listings sources to choose from.

Re:XMLTV

[UncleTogie]

I'm sure there are literally hundreds of TV listings sources to choose from.

Name even two whose terms of service allow schedule scraping...

Re:XMLTV

[Jafafa Hots]

Terms of service? Fuck terms of service. Using a PVR at all is probably against someone's terms of service. The NFL for example.

Re:XMLTV

[heinousjay]

Bah terms of service. If they didn't want people stealing it, they shouldn't make it available.

Re:XMLTV

[speaker of the truth]

The law states that they cannot own the copyright to the tv listings so therefore they cannot stop me from redistributing it anymore then someone could force me into slavery through their terms of service. Sucks to be them, but they should think of new ways to make money off non-copyrightable content.

Re:XMLTV

[Anonymous Coward]

Despite the fact that they do not own (or claim) copyright, they can certainly take civil action against you & can also take actions to prevent you from using their services.

Re:XMLTV

[Man On Pink Corner]

Despite the fact that they do not own (or claim) copyright, they can certainly take civil action against you

In the absence of contract and consideration? Um, yeeeah. Good luck with that civil action. Maybe Jack Thompson will take the case.

Re:XMLTV

[dami99]

Might want to read the "article" next time. "the Zap2it TV Listings are not being shut down"

Re:XMLTV

[DavidTC]

Yeah, if they knew you were doing it.

I don't know why anyone would announce where they were getting the listings from. Write a scrapper that, each day, goes out to whatever site is used and pages through the farthest-away day, inserting random delays like real users.

You only need to collect the cable channels once, or once for each time zone. Local is a bit trickier, it would be best to find the 'biggest' cable provider you can. (Cable providers between major cities often include both cities' local channels.)

There's really no way to detect it, barring tricks like randomly giving out slightly wrong data to different IPs and sees which one ends up in the end result.

The whole concept is just idiotic anyway. Television networks should provide free listings of their shows, which they do anyway on their websites. If they'd just spend a damn week making some sort of RSS format or something, it'd all be over. (Or use the XML format xap2it was using.)

And cable and sat providers would lump all feeds from their various stations into a single one. And I suspect in most major cities someone would set up a website listing the dozen or so URLs that the broadcast channels use, or even put them together for you in one file.

It's not like it would be a lot of damn bandwidth. You don't need to check them more than once a day. Hell, once a week is enough for PVRs, if there are two weeks of data.

Re:XMLTV

[/dev/trash]

hell the NFL even forbids me from calling a friend and telling them what the score is.

Re:XMLTV

[Anonymous Coward]

You do realize that most civil actions are entirely about who has the larger legal budget & most are settled out of court?

I agree that a suit would be stupid, but look in the news. I fully expect to see some BS case about DMCA circumvention and/or data theft and/or disrupiton of service, etc. against any centralized project to try this.

If a suit wasn't realistic, nobody would buy data from these people--ReplayTV & MythTV & TiVo engineers could certainly scrape a webpage!

They're perhaps less likely to prosecute individuals, but either this small group of abusers wouldn't disrupt their service or the providers would change their page layout often enough to lower the number of abusers to manageable levels.

Re:XMLTV

[Anonymous Coward]

Totally against your sig, not your post, which is informative and insightful and should be modded as such (perhaps by moi?): who do you think made building a city under a lake possible? Hint: wasn't a private enterprise.

Re:XMLTV

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sure there are literally hundreds of TV listings sources to choose from.

I'm sure you're joking.


Nope... I guess we're both wrong.

Re:XMLTV

[mwvdlee]

The TV networks are getting paid by companies using their listings to get them in a convenient format. Why would you expect them to spend a week making an RSS like format which will end up lowering profits?

Re:XMLTV

[UncleTogie]

"the Zap2it TV Listings are not being shut down"

...and having set it and used it, I know the difference between the Zap2it XMLTV listing project and their TV site with listings...

Please...

Re:XMLTV

[Anonymous Coward]

Private enterprise built the city above a lake. When the city sunk into the lake because, well, buildings in swamps tend to sink, private enterprise turned to government to build the levees. Asshole.

Re:XMLTV

[DavidTC]

What are you talking about? I've never heard of them getting paid for this.

Re:XMLTV

[DavidTC]

Likewise, GM made my car, but you wouldn't see me crying and suing GM if a faulty gas line caught the gas tank on fire and the car explodes killing everyone in the backseat. Cause I know that without GM, I wouldn't even have a car!

Re:XMLTV

[DrXym]

Define "allows". I could scrape listings from any site which shows listings with HTML, RSS or from any other HTTP based content. Which is a great many. Whether they like it or not.

No more listings for US users you mean...

[gilesjuk]

There are Mythtv users outside of the US. In the UK the listings are carrying on as normal.

Re:No more listings for US users you mean...

[Anonymous Coward]

I doubt this is a problem outside the US. In most sane countries, TV broadcasters want to make it easy for people to watch them.

In the US, broadcasters view TV viewers as nothing more than a source of income. And, yes, in the US, broadcasters view getting up to use the bathroom during commercials to be stealing. (Jamie Kellner, specifically.)

Re:No more listings for US users you mean...

[Anonymous Coward]

Dammit, don't hit Enter on the stupid captcha text field.

The concept that got left out was that in the US, customers are simply income sources that must be milked for every cent. This is why you have to pay $0.10 per text message and they expect you to pay $2.50/month for custom ringtones.

This is why the iPhone's new customer ring feature costs $0.99/per song - assuming it was purchased through the iTunes music store (so really $1.98), and the publisher will allow you to make it into a ringtone in the first place!

So of course you're expected to pay for TV listings in the US. It lets people know when shows will be on, and since some people MIGHT be willing to pay for it, they'll charge for it. Even my cable provider charges me for their TV listings, and even then they only allow it to be used through their own cable box. (It's an extra fee, something like $4/month.) Yes - that's right - US cable subscribers already pay for a channel listing, and they STILL have to pay extra to use it in a meaningful way.

Re:No more listings for US users you mean...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah but cant you just type in the listings for the 8 channels you guys have? :)
I mean really how long could it take?

Re:No more listings for US users you mean...

[Anonymous Coward]

hmmm, in the UK we have 200 channel sky satalite here, 70 channel terrestial digital TV. 7 day EPG is transmitted with programming.

Re:No more listings for US users you mean...

[dan the person]

7 day EPG is transmitted with programming.

And the xmltv radiotimes feed has 14 days.

Stupid question (but I genuinely don't know)

[funkatron]

Can't you just get the tv listings off the air/cable/whatever? Perhaps things are set up differently in the US but in the UK listings are broadcast with digital tv (I haven't checked tuner card compatibility but I've never seen a set top box that doesn't support them).

Re:Stupid question (but I genuinely don't know)

[gigne]

yeah, you can get the listing directly from the stream. A friend of mine wrote a whole load of scripts to parse the data out into an xml based TV guide. It didn't take him long to do so I guess it s pretty trivial.

Re:Stupid question (but I genuinely don't know)

[Constantine XVI]

Unless you have a station(s) that show "DTV Program" every 30 minutes

Re:Stupid question (but I genuinely don't know)

[Andy Dodd]

Such capability is in theory included in ATSC (over the air) and QAM (cable digital) streams, but in reality, it's broken 95% of the time in the United States on the broadcaster's end.

Re:Stupid question (but I genuinely don't know)

[Anonymous Coward]

Same thing in Finland: broadcasters include TV listings as DVB metadata (just push the EPG button on your DTV remote and you get something like this: http://lehto.net/blogi/kuvat/Handan-EPG-VDR-800pix .jpg ). The EPG info might be a few minutes off from the actual times due to delays etc, but many DVRs on the market have allow adding x minutes to the beginning and the end of a recording scheduled via the EPG.

No one is paying anything for tv listings and there are no subscription-based DVRs on the market (excluding set-top-boxes you can rent from pay-tv providers if you don't want to buy one). If Finnish DVB included HDTV, we'd have a superior system compared to ze Americans :^)

Re:Stupid question (but I genuinely don't know)

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, if it didn't take him long, it must be pretty trivial... it's not that he might be skilled or you might be an idiot, it's just trivial.

Re:Stupid question (but I genuinely don't know)

[The Ribena Kid]

UK digital TV uses the ETSI DVB specifications (ETSI EN 300 468). Part of that specification covers carriage of schedule information in the Event Information Table. This is what (nearly all*) the digital set top boxes use for their programme guides. In the UK most broadcasters provide the next 8 days of schedules in the EIT. As far as I know this same system is used in most of the rest of Europe (means box manufacturers don't need different products for different countries).

* Some old boxes used to get the guide from one of interactive channels (4text I think), this was before EIT schedules were introduced.

We collect our own

[Skapare]

For local broadcasters, we can collect our own. Many broadcasters may be willing to provide their schedules for free. Someone in each city would have to be the "point person" to encourage the stations to provide them in a usable form with no distribution restriction. Then they would be submit them to central databases (can be more than one) where they would be merged and others can then download in bulk. The national networks might be harder to get them from.

Re:We collect our own

[Cylix]

Local broadcasters already submit them to a central authority.... well... self proclaimed central authority. (that's another rant for another time). Many broadcasters already provide their listings on the web as well.

The national stuff is easy as they already have to send their schedules to many local broadcasters and cable co. Format access can be as easy as an ftp, http or email. Up until recently buena vista had a lovely dial-a-fax option to send a show format to your desired fax line.

There are essentially two ways to automate this process. Propose an information exchange standard for all to follow. In a show listing you can merely tag it with the episode number and that can be used to retrieve the show description from a database. The big guys don't want this as there is already a huge industry around guide data.

Broadcasters provide the skeleton schedule and the central db fills in the meat.

As an exchange of benefit, make this guide data available for the broadcaster. Create tools to manage the data, export and whatnot. (Trust me, you'll save them several thousand dollars if they are purchasing the service from tribune for ATSC EPG data)

If you need to fund the op, at a reduced rate you can sale the guide data to cable ops and third party application designers.

The system in place is a great deal more manual then one would believe. A little work to integrate this whole process with their respect schedule managers would go over well with pretty much everybody.

I always toyed with the idea, but it's really a lot of hassle. I suppose I probably should have started my own guide data company a while ago. Oh well ;)

Re:We collect our own

[Skapare]

I don't think we need the detailed show format (segment timings, commercial breaks, etc) ... do we? What we need is the basic start and end time for the show, the name and code of the show, and where applicable the episode number. Other data is a nice plus but could usually be indexed by the show's code and episode number (e.g. lists of actors/actresses, plot description, date of production, and other trivia). I assume (because I've never looked at the MythTV stuff, yet) the XML DTD has already been worked out. If not, we need to do that, too. What we need to do is be sure we are getting data with a legal right to redistribute it.

I blame education

[p51d007]

Everyone expects everything to be free. Free health care, free food, free education. Tax the rich, they can afford it bla bla bla. Too many have been watching way too many star trek shows where everything is free. Welcome to economics 101....things COSTS MONEY.

Re:I blame education

[Crunchie Frog]

things COSTS MONEY. Either things cost money or things costs moneys.
Just which sides of the fences are you on mister?

Re:I blame education

[watchingeyes]

Ummm, Canada provides free health-care (well, almost free....I pay $15 a month and don't have to worry about massive hospital bills should I get sick...I was able to walk in with a cold, get a checkup, and a 3 week antibiotic prescription without paying a dime extra). I don't have to worry about pre-existing conditions as a hinderance for my health-care coverage either....I'm not investigated before I can enroll. In-fact, some people with serious enough conditions can have those costs WAIVED. My hospital doesn't have to call my insurance company to see if they can treat me.

Your health-care example is an extremely poor one. America is the only western country I'm aware of with such a piss-poor health care system where the lives of citizens are but a minor consideration in a money-making enterprise. Just my 2 cents.

As for anyone else complaining in here....Zap2it provided a free service, it was abused, get over it.

Re:I blame education

[mrbooze]

I'm a big fan of socialized health care, but Canada's health care is not free nor almost free. Taxpayers pay for it.

Re:I blame education

[geekboy642]

I ... walk in with a cold, get a ... 3 week antibiotic prescription ...

So, your doctor was a moron, eh? Prescribing antibiotics for a cold is dangerous and stupid. Firstly, a cold is viral, meaning antibiotics won't touch your sniffles. Second, antibiotics overuse directly creates so-called super-bacteria. So when the incurable staph infection is eating your leg 30 years from now in the hospital, remember that cold from last year. It's probably your fault.

Re:I blame education

[watchingeyes]

Well duh. Who the hell do you think pays for it, health-care fairies? By free I mean you don't have to pay a few thousand on your way out of the hospital. I figured I wouldn't need to explain that, because anyone with a dose of sense knows SOMEONE pays for it. Guess I was mistaken. Who did you figure I meant paid for it?

Re:I blame education

[watchingeyes]

Sorry, it was actually strepp throat (or however you spell it...too lazy to look it up). I went in for what I thought was a cold.

The doctor was kind of a bitch though (female) :-P

Re:I blame education

[geekboy642]

In that case, I rescind my insult. Strep throat is no joke...I've had it twice and wanted to die both times.

Re:I blame education

[Anonymous Coward]

You're absolutely right. We Canadians merely have to pay thousands of dollars every year whether or not we walk into a hospital. Great deal. I haven't had to use the health care system for 15 years but I've already paid the equivalent two major surgeries. On top of that, I pay for a health care plan to cover the stuff that the health care system thinks its above. And Canada's health care system is fabulous...so fabulous that not one nation on the planet has adopted it. Oh, and we're one of three nations on the planet -- North Korea and Cuba being the others -- that has banned private health care. Fuck profits! Yeahhh!

Re:I blame education

[blurfus]

I'll bite to this troll...

You're absolutely right. We Canadians merely have to pay thousands of dollars every year whether or not we walk into a hospital. Great deal. I haven't had to use the health care system for 15 years but I've already paid the equivalent two major surgeries.

That is no different than paying health insurance in any other country. If you don't need it, it seems like a waste. If you need it (or should I say WHEN you need it), you WILL be glad it is there. Truly, the system is heavily subsidized (from what you pay, and the services provided for the monies paid), it does not have a limit (as opposed to some insurance companies who impose lifetime maximums on certain items in their policies), and currently it is a right to every citizen and resident of the country. I fail to see how this is a bad thing.

And Canada's health care system is fabulous...so fabulous that not one nation on the planet has adopted it. Oh, and we're one of three nations on the planet -- North Korea and Cuba being the others -- that has banned private health care. Fuck profits! Yeahhh!

I guess you missed the part about other countries' "health care system where the lives of citizens are but a minor consideration in a money-making enterprise." I think not many countries have the balls to stand up to those corporate bullies nor the wealth to absorb the costs of such heavy subsidies if a switch to public health care were to take place.

You also neglect to mention the benefits of Canada's Health Care System: how about life expectancy? how about infant mortality rates?

"In 2001 Canadians paid $2,163 per capita versus $4,887 U.S., according to the Los Angeles Times[...] According to Dr. Stephen Bezruchka, a senior lecturer in the School of Public Health at the University of Washington in Seattle, Canadians do better by every health care measure. According to a World Health Organization report published in 2003, life expectancy at birth in Canada is 79.8 years, versus 77.3 in the U.S[18]." *

But more relevant to the topic, I will say: "yes, fuck profits by the big corporations preying on the ill, the person in need, or even the average person when they are down to their last resource (their health)"

*source

Re:I blame education

[MECC]

Welcome to economics 101....things COSTS MONEY.

I thought that was homework your parents gave you - along with plurality :-)

Re:I blame education

[Frank T. Lofaro Jr.]

Welcome to economics 101....things COSTS MONEY.

Including the Grammar 101 class you didn't take.

Re:I blame education

[scc4fun]

things COSTS MONEY. Either things cost money or things costs moneys I think he was clear that it was things costs money (even if it should actually be things cost money.

Zap2It = megacorporation subsidiary

[gbulmash]

zap2it is a subsidiary of Tribune Media Services, a subsidiary of the Tribune Corporation. Tribune owns the Chicago Tribune, the Los Angeles Times, and New York Newsday among many other print outlets. In TV they own 23 major market stations including KTLA Los Angeles and WGN Chicago. Fourteen of their 23 stations are CW affiliates.

TMS is a syndicator of news and information feeds, such as TV listings, which they supply to many, many clients who don't want to spend the time and energy to try and compile reasonably correct information for the hundreds and hundreds of different channels, as well as the hundreds of different cable and satellite line-ups around the country.

Re:Easy

[BlueStrat]

what free alternatives exist that can replace this much-needed service?"

Easy. Get up and walk off some of those calories.

You mean there's a free listing service he can sign up with that's within walking distance!?!? Cool!

mimic a Tivo

[Anonymous Coward]

sniff a tivo (or similar eg cablebox) network stream ?

Re:This bends my brain banana

[Quarters]

People have been paying for TV listings (TV Guide) for decades. Having to do it for PVRs doesn't seem that outrageous to me.

Re:This bends my brain banana

[Anonymous Coward]

have you ever used a DVR ? do you have any idea how fscking awesome they are ? imagine watching just the content you want, when you want. NGC and DSC channels are loaded with educational TV shows. Do you know how powerful this is when you have a child ? Its the perfect "filter" . My kids dont watch unsupervised trash tv. They watch educational shows when I want them to, without trashy commericals. you really have no clue WTF you are talking about. a home built PVR is a responsible parents godsend. and dont tell me you are here today on slashdot during the one day out of the year you come in from wandering the desert. give me a fscking break already.

The BBC makes it nice and easy

[l-ascorbic]

...even though it's their commercial, for profit arm: http://xmltv.radiotimes.com/xmltv/

Ha

[MBCook]

Does this really surprise anyone?

I dabbled with MythTV a few years ago. I was quite surprised then that the Zap2It service was free, and I'm quite amazed it lasted as long as it did. At a certain point, if MythTV got bigger, they would have HAD to do this.

Now other posters have pointed out that ReplayTV in some countries used this, and some companies were taking these listings and reselling them for profit.

If you want to be open source, this data has to come from somewhere. Maybe someone will write scripts to scrape Yahoo TV or TV Guide or something else. If you just move to another guide service, they will end up dong the same thing. Maybe they'll put ads in it (and we all know how well putting ads all though things fares with /.ers).

So I say... ha. I've been expecting this. It was inevitable. Meanwhile I've had a TiVo for maybe 3 years now. I love it. I now have a Series 3. And I've said that I love it in /. discussions and there are always those people who say "But MythTV is free!" I realize there are benefits to the MythTV way (multiple front ends, multiple media formats, etc). But now the free guide data is gone. You could pay someone for it (or Zap2It). But if your setup isn't that complex, wouldn't a TiVo fit the bill? It may cost a hair more, but they won't pull guide data on you. Plus for that small monthly fee you get software updates and suggestions (which is very valuable to me).

Free ride, in this small case, is over. I hope people enjoyed it, but at some level people had to see this would happen.

Too bad though. As I remember, they had excellent quality data.

Re:Ha

[satoshi1]

Paying for the listings is cheaper than paying for a Tivo. Especially if you already have some old hardware to stick MythTV on or something.

Re:Ha

[Anonymous Coward]

They may be able to pull my guide data out from under me, but what they can't pull out from under me: recorded shows, what I'm able to record, how long I can keep recorded material, etc.

Re:Ha

[mark-t]

Free means more than just cost. I like MythTV because I can record multiple programs at once, automatically skip commercials, and transfer all my favorite shows I want to keep permanently to DVD for posterity. All this functionality I get in just one box.

Re:Ha

[Frank T. Lofaro Jr.]

And get 5 years FREE (*) housing at a very secure Federal facility. Yes, it comes totally free with your DMCA violation.
You even get a guaranteed job, one you can take pride in, knowing people will see your handiwork proudly displayed on the back of many people's motor vehicles! And you'll have a lot of big "friends" and a lot of opportunity to socialize in a communal atmosphere.

(*) Not counting civil and criminal forfeiture, fines, and restitution.

(only half kidding about this - once the CableCARD and broadcast flag stuff become mandatory it will be for real).

Re:Ha

[mark-t]

I realize you're only half kidding, but even if you were serious I wouldn't be the slightest bit worried. Because I'm not redistributing any of the DVD's that I make, there's nothing that these media agencies are going to do to come down on me. Creating DVD's of my favorite shows is no different than if I were using a VCR and keeping the tapes instead of always rerecording over them. The only real downside is that I amlimited to the shows that are watchable with a regular TV tuner, but my cable company here doesn't have anything requiring a more sophisticated tuner to watch anyways.

Genetic algorithms

[Quiet_Desperation]

You start with random recording schedules and breed them off one another based on user provided success metrics.

In about 15 to 20 years you should have developed a sufficiently agile show selection expert system that you won't need any steeekin' TV guides.

Or something.

Re:Genetic algorithms

[glwtta]

You start with random recording schedules and breed them off one another based on user provided success metrics.

The programming execs are way ahead of you on this one: most networks already implement the first part of that algorithm.

Re:This bends my brain banana

[Bing Tsher E]

Many of these people seldom watch 'real time' television. Their PVR 'looks up' the schedule and automatically grabs the show at that time. It's waiting for them on disk when _they_ want to view it.

It isn't like the old days of rotating the 13 position channel knob round and round anymore.

Wow, good going Slashdot

[PolyDwarf]

Here goes some karma...

Reading through the comments, I'm struck by one thing, really.. The utter deviation of the posters, versus the "normal" mode of Slashdot.

Why is it an utter crime to want to get free tv listings? Why is it considered mandated that you must pay money to get them, where before they were free? Is it because it is the ScheduleDirect people? Or is it because it's "only" 5 dollars? Or is it because the word "Free" is bad? Seriously, tell me. I can download Linux for free, but I guess that's bad? I can read Slashdot for free, but I guess that's bad?

The ScheduleDirect people are offering a paid service. More power to them. I have a little nagging doubt in my head that they will degrade other methods of program acquisition (EIT, direct inserts into the database from a scraper, etc), to "facilitate" SD (otherwise known as rope people into using their paid-for service, and nothing else). Those fears may or may not be unfounded, but why shouldn't I be worried and looking for alternatives?

Why shouldn't people want to find out about any free listings that are out there, just like has been offered for years from the Zap2It people?

Re:Wow, good going Slashdot

[Aladrin]

I assume it's because they are sick of people asking. Google is GREAT for finding things that exist. The fact that you -can't- find this on Google is a huge hint that it doesn't exist. Let's not forget that the last service to provide this for free closed down because of all the abusers, even after they were asked not to abuse the system. What other service in their right mind would take their place?

I admit, I think $5/mo for TV listings is a lot. TV Guide provided that service, plus interviews and articles, for less. (At least, last I checked.) There's free TV listings in the paper each week. (Again, last I checked.) And you can always look stuff up on tvguide.com and other sites for free, they just don't provide an easy-to-use feed for automated abuse. Err, use. I don't even pay that much for services that do a -lot- more work.

Some day, TV will get on the ball and start providing the service people want, instead of trying to force things down our throats. Europe has tv-via-satellite that seems to work very well, except it's not HD. The HD over-the-air works well, if you aren't stuck in a valley like I am and can't receive any signals without a ton of equipment.

No, some day, someone will see the light and provide TV over the 'net, with an electronic guide that mythtv or other programs can use. (AT&T, ARE YOU LISTENING TO ME?) Maybe they'll even have TV-on-demand and eliminate the need for a DVR altogether... If I could stream TV shows any time I wanted, instead of having to know ahead of time, I'd be willing to pay for that. (More than I already pay for HD & DVR cable, I mean.)

We seem to have hit a phase where companies are trying to force us to want what they want to sell us, instead of trying to sell us what we want. It's backfiring left and right and they're soon going to have to open their eyes.

Re:Wow, good going Slashdot

[Anonymous Coward]

It perfectly rational and reasonable to obtain goods and services for as low a cost as possible (preferable zero). It is also perfectly reasonable for providers of goods and services to attempt to maximize their profits. They problem is assigning a moral scale here. Neither buyers nor sellers are inherently morally superior to one other. Justifying self interest with moral arguments is silly hypocrisy.

Re:Wow, good going Slashdot

[Anonymous Coward]

Here goes some karma...

No, but it is nice that you've fished for "insightful" mods by prefacing your statement with this.

Why is it an utter crime to want to get free tv listings?

It isn't a crime. Nobody said it was. They just said that payment for a service provided by F/OSS devs is reasonable.

Seriously, tell me. I can download Linux for free, but I guess that's bad? I can read Slashdot for free, but I guess that's bad?

Nice strawman. You can also read tv schedules online for free too (or at least in the same fake "ad supported" free that you read Slashdot).

I have a little nagging doubt in my head that they will degrade other methods of program acquisition (EIT, direct inserts into the database from a scraper, etc), to "facilitate" SD (otherwise known as rope people into using their paid-for service, and nothing else). Those fears may or may not be unfounded, but why shouldn't I be worried and looking for alternatives?

Given the reputations of those involved with SD, this is somewhat insulting. That being said, the reason you have nothing to fear is that the code to process XMLTV listings already exists & is open source.

There are more pragmatic reasons too--multiple F/OSS projects are collaborating on providing SD & even more will be encouraging their users to get their listings from SD.

Why shouldn't people want to find out about any free listings that are out there, just like has been offered for years from the Zap2It people?

They can want whatever they wish! But they aren't going to get it soon. Only two companies compile guide data & they sell it to other businesses. Some of these businesses (like SD) charge at least enough to pay for what it costs them to provide the listings. Others put it on the web & use ads to pay for it. Payment must come from somewhere. Z2It was free because they were a subsidary of Tribune.

If the data comes from one of the two "mother" listings, it will cost money. Period. No one will give you a free lunch. (Or you can violate TOS by scraping it.)

If it doesn't come from these "mother" sources, someone would have to form a third listing generation service (but this would cost significant setup & operating $$$ that they'd want to pass on).

Re:Wow, good going Slashdot

[Anonymous Coward]

If the data comes from one of the two "mother" listings, it will cost money. Period.

I think that is what it comes down to.

Exactly how much does it cost? It's just a few tens of kilobytes of data; time, channel, show title and brief synopsis. That's it. They desperately want you to watch their programming but the cheapest service (SchedulesDirect), just to find out what's on, is $5 a month. Is a few kilobytes of data really that expensive? They waste megabytes of bandwidth on streaming video, but a TV schedule is too precious to give away for free?

Re:Wow, good going Slashdot

[Anonymous Coward]

Right, because narrowcast-on-demand is so much cheaper than broadcast. How much would you pay? Double? Triple? We're in the nasty zone of network buildout right now, where everyone wants more bandwidth but nobody wants to pay for the infrastructure, just the marginal cost.

Re:Wow, good going Slashdot

[StormReaver]

"I admit, I think $5/mo for TV listings is a lot. TV Guide provided that service, plus interviews and articles, for less. "

$5/mo. for TV listing is just a few cents/month more than a typical TV Guide subscription (which was about $4.17/month at the time we ended our subscription). If you buy the TV Guide at the checkout counter, you pay a LOT more per month than that. TV Guide at the store is sold by the week, not the month. It's been a few years since I bought one at the store, but it was more than $1.25 for one week. For about the last five to six years, TV Guide stopped providing synopses for most shows. probably to save space for those worthless interviews and articles while keeping production costs down. To make it worse, the TV Guide has shrunk dramatically in recent years. I've subscribed to several magazines in my life, and I've seen that a shrinking page count is a sure sign of operational stress. All the magazines that went through the contraction stage eventually closed down.

I also can't have my computer automatically schedule recordings with TV Guide listings. The best I can hope for is to manually sift through the weekly listings and manually set my recording schedule. The time and effort spent doing that costs a lot more than $1.25/month.

Even at the initial price of $5/month (which is the high water mark planned for only the first 3 months, by the way), Schedules Direct's subscription comes out to $1.25 per week. That's quite a bit less than any other organized alternative. If they hit their target price of $20/year, that will come out to be about 39 cents per week. That's a trivial cost for the time and effort saved by subscribing to the service. Nothing even close will ever come from AT&T, Comcast, Cablevision, Mediacomm, or any commercial provider.

Re:Wow, good going Slashdot

[pepik_knize]

(AT&T, ARE YOU LISTENING TO ME?)

Umm, if you're on teh internets, the answer is yes.

Re:Wow, good going Slashdot

[evilviper]

Why is it an utter crime to want to get free tv listings?

Because it costs money to get them, assemble them, and distribute them.

Linux is free because a bunch of volunteers put it together for free. So why aren't you volunteering to call up numerous TV networks, every few days, to get a list of their schedule, and input that into a public database for others to use, for free?

How about calling up every cable network in the country every month, to see if they've made any changes to their channel line-ups? And checking on every FCC action to see if broadcast TV channels have made any changes.

Somebody needs to do it. In absence of a huge and sustained mass of unimaginably dedicated volunteers, somebody needs to get paid for doing the hard and thankless work. Otherwise, you're just being a leech.

Why is it considered mandated that you must pay money to get them, where before they were free?

Zap2It was being charitable, nothing more. It was costing them money, but they put up with it for quite a while anyhow. No one else has, nor will do so again. There's just no profit in it, and it's not sustainable.

I'm sure you can think of many other examples of some software or service that started out free, but was merely a loss-leader or other marketing ploy, before it went commercial.

Re:Wow, good going Slashdot

[Anonymous Coward]

If I could stream TV shows any time I wanted, instead of having to know ahead of time, I'd be willing to pay for that. (More than I already pay for HD & DVR cable, I mean.)

You mean like iTunes? (or any of the other places you can buy TV shows.) Granted it's not streaming, but I'd say that isn't a bad thing.

Re:Wow, good going Slashdot

[Frank T. Lofaro Jr.]

Google's search is a loss leader and won't go away.

They do have sponsored ads, which is only reasonable and pays their bills, yet people decide to SUE them for it!

As if people really couldn't tell a sponsored ad from a search listing (hint: one says sponsored add, the other doesn't), or doesn't like the fact competitors can buy them (if the only customers you lose are too dumb to tell you apart, did you really want them?).

It is popular to attack Google lately.

Re:Wow, good going Slashdot

[Scott Atkinson]

You're right, insofar as the bandwidth use is trivial. But as noted elsewhere, the backend costs are not trivial - the two companies in the listing business have to compile, maintain and update schedules from 200+ commercial broadcast stations, public stations and cable-only operations.

They are money making businesses. Frankly, I'm surprised (and delighted) Schedules Direct was able to get a $5 a month rate, let alone the target of $20 a year.

It sems to me that this is a case where MythTV users rely on the kindness of strangers - we're too geeky, too small, to be of importance to the big co.s. That the Trib is willing to set a nominal price for Schedules Direct suggests (to me, at least) that someone in the Trib thinks open source is a good thing.

Scott Atkinson
WWNY TV
Watertown NY

Re:Wow, good going Slashdot

[evilviper]

Google's search is a loss leader and won't go away.

You apparently don't know what a loss leader is.

Google search is very directly ad supported. How do you propose to do that with downloaded (offline) XML TV listing and apps that use it, like MythTV?

I'll ignore the rest of your off-topic rant.

Re:Wow, good going Slashdot

[NateTech]

$5/mo a "lot"? People used to buy this thing called "TV Guide" and it sat on the end-table next to the sofa, and you had to walk across the room to change the channel.

Sheesh.

Will start using SD

[Braedley]

Once I install the new version of MythTV. Knowing that the price should come down in the next couple of months only gives me more reason to do so.

american users

[Anonymous Coward]

aren't there mythtv users in europe and elsewhere?

Re:american users

[Anonymous Coward]

aren't there mythtv users in europe and elsewhere?

There sure are. Maybe there's a blog site over in Europe that you can log onto and discuss those users.

Re:american users

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, but over here the TV broadcasters have this quaint idea that by providing free guide data they can get people to watch their shows. Just goes to show that Europeans don't know anything about business.

Re:american users

[itsdapead]

...and if you're using a digital tuner in the UK, you get listings along with the signal, which MythTV picks up quite nicely, thanks.

Can't. too many ... Issues

[Anonymous Coward]

I have an issue with the issue made of the issues of chicagoland's tribune issue of whatever issue is at hand. In the next issue of TV Guide, this issue may be an issue. One things is certain. I won't make an issue of the issue.

Microsoft MCE's listings are still free...

[g2racer]

This is one of the reasons why I opted to go Windows XP Media Center Edition (MCE) 2005 when I built out my PVR earlier this month.

Re:Microsoft MCE's listings are still free...

[rsmith-mac]

Which begs the question: How long until somebody does the Evil thing(with a capital E) and just starts scraping and copying Microsoft's listings?

Re:Microsoft MCE's listings are still free...

[Ice Wewe]

Which begs the question: How long until somebody does the Evil thing(with a capital E) and just starts scraping and copying Microsoft's listings?

I'm sure it's already happened/is happening somewhere. I just need to find out where and how I can get it.

Alas, a guide service wouldn't benefit me anyway, I'm so incredibly cheap I just *STEAL* TV off the airwaves... Imagine that!

Re:Microsoft MCE's listings are still free...

[omnifunctional]

You could pay for SchedulesDirect listings for a few years and still come out money ahead of the cost of MCE. You paid for the listings in the overpriced software.

Re:Microsoft MCE's listings are still free...

[Disfnord]

Begs the question?

Re:Microsoft MCE's listings are still free...

[Jinjuku]

Actually, I picked up a Dell that is extremely quite with Vista Home Premium for about $150 LESS than I could build a comparable machine with NO OS. Dual Core Athlon, 24" monitor for $649 shipped. Could you please re-explain? I mean a the lowest priced DECENT 24" monitor was $499 after rebate at the time.

Re:Microsoft MCE's listings are still free...

[MojoStan]

You could pay for SchedulesDirect listings for a few years and still come out money ahead of the cost of MCE. Assuming Microsoft will provide free listings until extended support ends (April 2014), Windows XP MCE 2005 ($110 at Newegg) will continue to get free listings for at least 6.5 more years. That's less than $1.50 per month if g2racer continues using the OS until April 2014. How certain can we be that SchedulesDirect or other services will continue to provide fairly priced listings?

You paid for the listings in the overpriced software. Windows MCE is not for everybody, but I think a heck of a lot of PVR builders will gladly pay for MCE's ease of installation, ease of use, hardware support (drivers), application support (if they use more than just the PVR functions), and tv listings. Heck, MS has made a lot of crappy software, but I think their PVR interface is the only one that's as good as TiVo.

Re:Microsoft MCE's listings are still free...

[ricosalomar]

How, exactly, is that an example of begging the question? Did you mean "raises the question"?

Essential to life?

[phorm]

No, it's a convenience. Convenience often comes at a cost, especially when somebody else has to do work or pay to bring you that convenience.

Re:This bends my brain banana

[grommit]

So I don't have to check the paper tv listings every day/week to schedule my Myth box to record the few shows a week that I watch. I tell it which shows I want it to record and it does all the work of finding out what time they play and recording them accordingly. While I enjoy tinkering with my computers, my time is valuable enough to me to not have to spend it on repetitive tasks such as telling my myth box exactly which channels and what times to record.

Why hookers?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Oh damnit - I forgot. This is slashdot. Paying for stuff = bad."

Guess that explains why geeks don't get laid.

Free doesn't mean "costs money" -- these are FREE

[Anonymous Coward]

I am glad people have mentioned SchedulesDirect. But, you know, free doesn't mean "costs money", so I'm surprised so many people CONTINUE to post yet more threads on schedulesdirect.

          Found at http://forums.schedulesdirect.org/viewtopic.php?f= 7&t=43&start=10:

zap2xml
http://zap2xml.110mb.com/

YahooXMLTv
http://forums.gbpvr.com/showthread.php?t=27546

MSN_XMLTV_scraper
http://planetreplay.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=143 14

          I am using MSN_XMLTV_scraper, running under Wine personally. To run under Wine, you need msxml6.msi, install that with "msiexec /i msxml6.msi". For GZIP compression to work (which you do want, so MSN doesn't get cheesed and start changing the format...), I had to install wininet.dll into /root/.wine/drive_c/windows/system32/ and run regedit, adding in HKCU/Software/Microsoft/Windows/CurrentVersion/Int ernet Settings/EnableHttp1_1=0x00000001 . This is equivalent to checking "Enable HTTP1.1" in the Internet Options with Internet Explorer I guess. More or less, run the app once to set it up, then put in a cron job that runs "wine MSN_XMLTV_scraper_v54.exe /d" and feeds the XMLTV data into mythtv (I have a shell script that does all that.)

          The first run is very slow, but it caches the detailed program info so after the first run it's pretty fast.

Who Still watches TV

[sbate]

I watch tv shows...

Re:This bends my brain banana

[Anonymous Coward]

People have been paying for TV listings (TV Guide) for decades. Having to do it for PVRs doesn't seem that outrageous to me.

Publications like the TV Guide have to edited, typeset, printed, packed, shipped and/or mailed. The TV Guide also has news articles about TV shows and movies that need to be written, edited, etc. (yeah, I don't read them either, but they're there).

Compared to that, how much does it cost to schlep a few kilobytes of TV schedule around the internet?

http://www.schedulesdirect.org/

[Icemaann]

I am surprised the submitter did not mention Schedules Direct. It is not free, but it should have been mentioned.

Anyway, check it out.

Slashdot replies dont answer anything anymore

[Anonymous Coward]

I use a program which scrapes the Yahoo TV listings. It dumps 2 weeks worth of data into a xmltv compatible file. Then just tweak your MythTV settings (I had to adjust the GMT offset), and run `mythfilldatabase --file ...`

Not hard - just search, dont rely on the /. crowd who don't RTFA but are quick to shoot off "Just buy it" or "Your stealing"

I cant remember the name of the VB program I use, but it was made for GB-PVR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GB-PVR). Hope that helps.

Re:SageTV

[Anonymous Coward]

Their $80-100 price point is better than that of Windows MCE. But it is still proprietary software & the free/open source MythTV is much more featureful.

Plus $100 will buy a few years of listings! Depending on SageTV's upgrade policy, MythTV is still a less expensive option (I have no doubts that it is a better value).

Re:This bends my brain banana

[ErikZ]

Hostile much?

I'm amazed how you can discount the entire business model of TV Guide. Yes, if you want to know what time and what channel a show comes on, you need TV listings.

Unless you're advocating people sit in front of their TVs mindlessly clicking around looking for something to watch.

Unlike when I was growing up, there's actually a lot of high quality passive entertainment these days. You might want to check it out.

Re:MCE's listings are still free...but MCE is NOT

[Anonymous Coward]

MCE costs over $100. I can get plenty of listings for my free/open source PVR for that price! And I don't pay for software upgrades! And it is free/open source with more features and no DRM.

In the case of my ReplayTV...

[Richard Steiner]

...my subscription pays not only for the basic schedule, but also for tthe digested/categorized version that is organized into 'zones' by show type and/or subject matter.

Makes it easy to find all hockey games or all horror movies cross all channels.

Re:SageTV

[CastrTroy]

But the $80 (don't know where the $100 came from) is easily worth it when you consider you don't have to go through the trouble of getting MythTV to work. Myth TV will probably give you more functionality. But SageTV will give you ease of use, with everything included in one nice package. I probably sound like some kind of fanboi, or someone who works for the company, but I'm really just a happy customer. After trying to days to get MythTV working, I just downloaded the trial version of SageTV, and it was up and running in 1/2 an hour. At that point, I was sold. So if you are having trouble getting MythTV to work. Just give SageTV a try, if you don't like it, don't use it. But don't discount it because you think $80 is too much, because once you count the time to get MythTV up and running, and the cost of Listings. $15 for 3 months = $60 a year = almost the cost of Sage. Then SageTV is well worth the money.

Re:This bends my brain banana

[timmarhy]

It must be an american thing. Here in australia every station broadcasts it's guide for free. It just seems crazy you should need to pay for it, because you watching is what keeps tv/cable companys alive.

Re:SageTV

[Anonymous Coward]

don't know where the $100 came from

It is the cost for getting both SageTV and a "Placeshifter license." MythTV has place shifting FOR FREE.

is easily worth it when you consider you don't have to go through the trouble of getting MythTV to work.

MythTV installation is insanely easy. Depending on the distro, it may take the same half hr (more or less) as it took you with SageTV. And LiveCDs like KnoppMyth, MythDora, and MythBuntu are even quicker/easier than installing SageTV.

But SageTV will give you ease of use, with everything included in one nice package.

So does MythTV. MythTV is insanely easy to learn to use & uses very few button presses. Everything's in one nice MythTV package too!

but I'm really just a happy customer.

I don't mean to imply you shouldn't be happy with your purchase. But it sounds like you haven't used MythTV. Try one of those LiveCDs before you pay to upgrade. I did use the free SageTV trial a while ago. At the time, it was certainly inferior to MythTV. You got support, but the MythTV community support is great & I'm sure you could pay for support if you needed it.

$15 for 3 months = $60 a year = almost the cost of Sage.

It is $15 for the FIRST three months. As they get more users, they will lower the cost--they're not running the system for a profit. They hope to lower it to $20/yr.

TV Guide Should Take Advantage of This

[dreamchaser]

...and offer PVR friendly listing feeds for something along the lines of $2 or $3 a month or so.

"Misuse"?

[The Wicked Priest]

Does anyone know the nature of the alleged "misuse"?

Re:"Misuse"?

[Anonymous Coward]

In addition to providing an ad-supported channel listing online, Zap2it provides schedule information to device makers. Since a lot of people were screen-scraping schedule info from the zap2it website (providing zero ad revenue and bloating bandwidth), they tried launching Zap2it Labs for personal use, reducing bandwidth use and gauging demand for a similar pay service. Presumably people were taking information from the Zap2it Labs site and redistributing it, either by setting up their own ad-supported channel listing or by making and selling devices that access the Labs site rather than paying for the Zap2it feed for devices. SchedulesDirect will have to ensure that the same abuses do not happen to their information.

Let's not get melodramatic

[p3d0]

I understand you believe the GP's suggestion to be unethical, but there's no need to misuse the word "theft" for this. What the GP is talking about may be freeloading, or copyright violation, or breach of contract, but to call this "theft" belittles the victims of actual theft.

Re:Let's not get melodramatic

[loganrapp]

They are a victim of theft. Because of it, a lot of people are out of TV Listings. They took what wasn't theirs to take, and people who rightly had access to it now no longer do.

Re:Let's not get melodramatic

[mrsteveman1]

Did you miss the part where it was free? Yea i think you did.....

Re:Let's not get melodramatic

[westlake]

I understand you believe the GP's suggestion to be unethical, but there's no need to misuse the word "theft" for this. What the GP is talking about may be freeloading, or copyright violation, or breach of contract, but to call this "theft" belittles the victims of actual theft.

Intangible property is still property. Theft of services is still theft.

The service disappears. The provider goes out of business. There is a victim.

Re:Let's not get melodramatic

[zerkon]

It was free as in beer, not free as in speech. People abused that by reselling and redistributing the information which was against the TOS. As a result the company stopped offering the the service to everyone, including those who played by the rules. There is are many victims (including myself) who paid the cost of spending a few hours changing all the settings to get schedules direct to work, and $15 every 3 months. All because some jerks couldn't play by the rules and decided instead to make money off something that wasn't theirs.

So yeah, it is theft. Even if it was free for the taking, there were some caveats. To put it in /. terms, just because downloading GPL'd code is free doesn't mean you can use it however you want, you are required to follow the rules of the GPL.

Re:Let's not get melodramatic

[p3d0]

Splitting a cable is different. Connecting to a company's server without authorization is different. What we're talking about here is making copies of information. There's no way the act of copying information can deprive anyone of that information, so it's not theft.

Also, please note that you're the one who brought up the fact that the victim is a company. Everything I said applies equally to individuals.

Re:Let's not get melodramatic

[booch]

But theft implies that the original owner no longer has the stolen item.

That's the reason many people like to make a distinction between the 2.

Re:Let's not get melodramatic

[Monchanger]

I pay the membership cost. If his three friends paid as well, I would be able to pay less than I do. The end result is that his buddies are stealing from me and every other subscriber. He's also stealing from us if you consider that he's creating goodwill or "street cred" by distributing the data illegally (he signed the contract I did). There's no free lunch here.

The nature of theft is that it is counter-productive. The reason thieves are shunned by society, is that they consume without producing. We pay dearly for the large amount of theft and corruption, and we're all responsible. As in many things, little infractions such as this which we allow with the excuse that "it's not hurting anyone", multiplied throughout society and become real problems.

The classic, observable case that really kills me is traffic. Every morning I run into traffic caused in no small part by a few selfish lane-shifting drivers, who in their efforts to get three cars ahead of others make merges turn into huge jams. I'm not sure if it's because they either don't care or don't understand what their actions are doing, but the sad truth is that they'll get stuck in the traffic the next day with me.

I know comments like this result in people calling me unrealistic and I don't care. It's idiots like that who let society fall into such a state. In "Imagine" John Lennon wasn't telling people to change overnight. He wanted people to become aware that they were causing their own misfortunes, and that only they had the power to change it. Work hard, be nice to strangers and raise your kids properly.

Re:Let's not get melodramatic

[norminator]

Did you miss the part where it's not free anymore? Yea i think you did

Re:Let's not get melodramatic

[Frank Battaglia]

I was an original owner (legitimate user of Zap2It). Now, I no longer have the stolen item (access to Zap2It).

Re:Let's not get melodramatic

[p3d0]

I pay the membership cost. If his three friends paid as well, I would be able to pay less than I do. The end result is that his buddies are stealing from me and every other subscriber. By that logic, I'm also a thief because I don't use the service at all.

He's also stealing from us if you consider that he's creating goodwill or "street cred" by distributing the data illegally (he signed the contract I did). There's no free lunch here. By that logic, all slander and libel are also stealing.

The nature of theft is that it is counter-productive. The reason thieves are shunned by society, is that they consume without producing. No. You're thinking too hard. The nature of theft is that thieves take something away from someone else. Victim had a thing; thief takes that thing; victim no longer has that thing. Anything beyond that is using the word "theft" as a metaphor, and should be recognized as such.

The classic, observable case that really kills me is traffic. Every morning I run into traffic caused in no small part by a few selfish lane-shifting drivers, who in their efforts to get three cars ahead of others make merges turn into huge jams. I'm not sure if it's because they either don't care or don't understand what their actions are doing, but the sad truth is that they'll get stuck in the traffic the next day with me. Agreed. But that's not theft.

Re:Let's not get melodramatic

[Perp Atuitie]

What a load. How did somebody else trying to resell the info harm Zaptoit? Why would that motivate them to stop the service? Why didn't they protect their "property" by going to court instead of throwing it away? This is a pathetic excuse for the hapless Tribune Co. to jettison luxuries it can no longer afford and try to win some whining points. I can only assume you're one of those people who sincerely believed that McDonald's did it all for you.

Re:Let's not get melodramatic

[Monchanger]

I pay the membership cost. If his three friends paid as well, I would be able to pay less than I do. The end result is that his buddies are stealing from me and every other subscriber. By that logic, I'm also a thief because I don't use the service at all. No, you're not. You're not part of the equation, since you choose not to use the service.

They stole from me because I have the actual loss of the not-going-to-happen price drop that would happen if they subscribed. I also lose if SD closes up shop due to these thieves.

He's also stealing from us if you consider that he's creating goodwill or "street cred" by distributing the data illegally (he signed the contract I did). There's no free lunch here. By that logic, all slander and libel are also stealing. Depending on your definition of stealing, perhaps. I don't really care what you want to call it- I just argued that it's socially wrong.

The nature of theft is that it is counter-productive. The reason thieves are shunned by society, is that they consume without producing. No. You're thinking too hard. The nature of theft is that thieves take something away from someone else. Victim had a thing; thief takes that thing; victim no longer has that thing. Anything beyond that is using the word "theft" as a metaphor, and should be recognized as such. The way I see it, many things can be stolen, and possibly not delivered to the gainer in the same form. Your argument is that of one focused on money and possessions. The loss here is reputation, which to those who care about slander is often priceless. It may be that a legal system with a monetary focus leads to shoddy laws and their breaking in the first place.

The classic, observable case that really kills me is traffic. Every morning I run into traffic caused in no small part by a few selfish lane-shifting drivers, who in their efforts to get three cars ahead of others make merges turn into huge jams. I'm not sure if it's because they either don't care or don't understand what their actions are doing, but the sad truth is that they'll get stuck in the traffic the next day with me. Agreed. But that's not theft. Again, you're not thinking hard enough, and you're being argumentative for the sake of it, rather than being productive and actually contributing to the subject. Just as above but with a different kind of priceless. Time is money, as the saying goes. And mine's too valuable to school you further.

Re:Let's not get melodramatic

[p3d0]

I pay the membership cost. If his three friends paid as well, I would be able to pay less than I do. The end result is that his buddies are stealing from me and every other subscriber. By that logic, I'm also a thief because I don't use the service at all. No, you're not. You're not part of the equation, since you choose not to use the service. How so? Your statement I quoted applies to me. I'm not being obtuse or rhetorical here; I really believe I am a counterexample that proves your statement to be false.

Can you be specific about why they are thieves and I am not? I contend that you can't.

By that logic, all slander and libel are also stealing. Depending on your definition of stealing, perhaps. I don't really care what you want to call it- I just argued that it's socially wrong. Then I suppose our discussion is over, because my entire point is that I do care what we call it.

In my mind, if you're not stealing a thing, then the "theft" is metaphorical, not actual. The notion of theft is a useful one, and watering it down with abstract metaphors involving indirect deprivation of intangibles makes it less useful.

We might need to agree to disagree on this.

Re:This bends my brain banana

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, but TV Guide is $31.92 for 56 issues (year subscription), and schedulesdirect is $15 per quarter, or $60/year (and don't tell me it is going to go down, nowhere has that been guaranteed -- the current rate, which is the only announced rate works out to be $60 a year). So TV Guide is close to half the cost of a schedules direct subscription, plus you get a nice hardcopy magazine in the mail every week. $60 a year is too damn much for a data feed that be should (and until recently was) free.

not just tv

[dwater]

don't forget...MythTV is good for other things than just watching TV.

Re:This bends my brain banana

[Skapare]

If you are paying for TV content to be delivered to you, then maybe that provider should offer it as an extra fee service. But for free terrestrial and free satellite TV programming, at least those listings should be free if the source providers are willing to make their piece of it free, as long as there are people willing to do the distributing for free.

Re:Easy

[Plaid Phantom]

Yes. It's walking over to the neighbor's mailbox and stealing their TV Guide.

Slashdot is dead

[Anonymous Coward]

The old guard has left slashdot to retreat back to their mailing lists and newsgroups. The only thing that remains is the Digg crowd. So long, and thanks for all the fish!

DVB-T

[smoker2]

DVB-T broadcasts include an 8 day EPG in the transmissions, and MythTV picks it up just fine, thanks. (In the UK/Europe of course)

Re:DVB-T

[mzs]

Yeah and here in the US there is a mandate that all ATSC broadcasters must send program information for at least 12 hours. This is done with EIT (Event Information Tables). EIT-0 (first three hours) is to be sent twice per second, EIT-1 (next three hours) once every three seconds, and EIT-2 and EIT-3 (final 6 hours) every minute. Guess what my set says for pretty much every channel?

"No program information"

Even the PBS station which used to be very good about it somehow stopped sending the EITs. It just shows how much the broadcasters pay attention to the rules. The details are in document A/65C at the ATSC website (http://www.atsc.org/standards.html).

Re:DVB-T

[Anonymous Coward]

I started my mythbox last week using EIT data. And you are absolutely correct. out of the 10 or so channels I'm getting only 3 provide EIT data. Pretty pitiful.

DropIt

New distribution model needed

[CountryGeek]

Until a new distribution model for the listing is devised, services like labs.zap2it.com are going to spring up, then close down due to the cost of running a bunch of servers. It's hard to monetize the data with adds, since the data in interpreted by MythTV/ReplayTV/whatever.

Several posters have mentioned that they have programs that scrape data off of web pages. IIRC, this is the original method used by MythTV. When the load becomes great on the pages that are being scraped, those pages will change or go away.

We need to agree on a standard (ala Bittorent) for distributing this type of static content among the users. Each MythTV user can spare some bandwidth late at night to seed others. Assuming that the cable and television companies allow it to succeed....

Re:New distribution model needed

[Anonymous Coward]

Problem there is that the listing data (show descriptions, etc.) is copyrighted, and thus it's not legal to distribute it.

Re:New distribution model needed

[rtechie]

This hasn't stopped Bittorrent, which has much bigger problems in this regard. Basically, what the OP is talking about is Btitorrent for XML listings with the tracker hosted in Russia or somewhere else safe. The tracker site does the scraping then seeds the XML listings which are then picked up by a Bittorrent client in MythTV.

In theory, this shouldn't be too hard to do. I think the hard part would be modifying MythTV to get XML listings via Bittorrent.

graw EIT data from DVB satellites.

[Anonymous Coward]

All a user needs is a DVB satellite card, and download the EIT data directly from a satellite. Dishnetwork and ExpressBell VU carry unencrypted EIT data for the TV guide. I been doing this for a few years. I never relied on Zap to it. But then again I am also getting something else for free at the same time ;)

free alternative

[Anonymous Coward]

just a suggestion,

http://tv.msn.com/

Re:SageTV

[wizbit]

Uh, I would take issue with "insanely easy" wrt intalling MythTV, there, Jobs. If you already have the best-supported hardware, of course it's easy. Most of us don't buy new PCs just to run Myth, at least not at first. Tweaking your Linux distro of choice to perform DVR duties with Myth is a chore, and while it could *possibly* be very easy, in practice it is a several-dozen-hours affair to get things Wife-approved, know what I mean?

Re:SageTV

[Anonymous Coward]

If you already have the best-supported hardware, of course [MythTV installation is] easy

SageTV is no less picky with respect to hardware. Yes, on a random box you might be stuck with either SageTV or MythTV. But I'd take a Mythdora CD over SageTV anyday (even if SageTV was free/open source).

You can't do that for free

[Anonymous Coward]

"I can download Linux for free, but I guess that's bad? I can read Slashdot for free..."

No you can't (or at least, no, most people can't). You pay for a computer, for electricity, for ISP service...

Sorry I'm so old school, but coming from the early days of the 'Net and remembering the way it used to be, I say that once you pay your ISP fee, EVERYTHING on the 'Net should be ZERO additional charge. If the ISP fee needs to be jacked up a little to make that possible, so be it, but once on the 'Net, stop all the nickle and diming.

Why don't the stations take care of that?

[Casandro]

In germany virtually all the stations carry EPG information with their DVB signal. Those stations who don't simply appear blank in the "What's on now" listings. This creates a certain pressure to implement EPG.

And in fact even in analog days there was and still is Teletext. A digital text servie allowing the station to carry information on 40x24 character pages. Those nearly almoust also carried complete programm guides. In fact some VCRs from Grundig even tried to parse those pages for "point and click" programming.

Why is it that in the US the user experience always has to be destroyed by people who want to maximize their profit?

I found a solution...

[rlbond86]

I use GBPVR under XP, and I am extremely satisfied with Yapi2xml, which uses Yahoo TV's API to get listings and outputs them as XMLTV. http://gbpvr.com/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Utility/YApi2XM L

Free US EPG data here...

[Chabil Ha']

I have a non-Windows Media Center box that is the hub of my media. It really sucked when Zap2It went down. So, I spent an evening looking for a free alternative. I have a laptop that has Media Center 2005 on it (where it automagically downlaods its EPG data) and found a nifty application that will parse it into XMLTV format. I then drop that in a share on my media server where it picks it up and installs the latest data. Rinse, lather, and repeat. It bites that I have to manually do this every so often, but it sure beats manually parsing or screen scraping a website.

Re:Free US EPG data here...

[ThomasHoward]

Interesting, apparently: "The source is released under GPL3 and restricted to private, non-commercial uses only." Kind of a contradiction there perhaps.

Next three hours...

[Short Circuit]

|Paid prog|Paid Prog|Paid Programming|Paid Prog...

Nah, not worth the time. Has anyone actually timed how long it takes for the TV Guide channel to loop?

Re:Next three hours...

[ChairmanMeow]

Has anyone actually timed how long it takes for the TV Guide channel to loop?

When it's working normally, or when the list isn't frozen in place on channel 847 (Turkish Home Shopping Network)?

Can I

[akijikan]

get modded informative for mentioning http://www.schedulesdirect.org/ like everyone else has?

Re:This bends my brain banana

[B4RSK]

AC: a home built PVR is a responsible parents godsend

Responsible parents keep their little monsters away from the TV as much as possible.

TV sucks. It rots your brain and robs your imagination.

(Yes, I am a parent. My little monster (daughter) is 8 and watches little TV. It probably helps that neither of her parents are big TV people either -- I watch perhaps 2 hours per month.)

Wow, good going Slashdot-Thinking of you.

[Anonymous Coward]

"I admit, I think $5/mo for TV listings is a lot. TV Guide provided that service, plus interviews and articles, for less. (At least, last I checked.) There's free TV listings in the paper each week. (Again, last I checked.) And you can always look stuff up on tvguide.com and other sites for free, they just don't provide an easy-to-use feed for automated abuse. Err, use. I don't even pay that much for services that do a -lot- more work."

And here's the crux of the problem. There's free and there's the illusion of free. And people do love their illusions.

"Some day, TV will get on the ball and start providing the service people want, instead of trying to force things down our throats. Europe has tv-via-satellite that seems to work very well, except it's not HD. The HD over-the-air works well, if you aren't stuck in a valley like I am and can't receive any signals without a ton of equipment."

With "get on the ball" being shorthand for "I want you to spend your money making me happy even if it's not a wise decision for the rest of your 'shareholders'*"

"No, some day, someone will see the light and provide TV over the 'net, with an electronic guide that mythtv or other programs can use. (AT&T, ARE YOU LISTENING TO ME?) Maybe they'll even have TV-on-demand and eliminate the need for a DVR altogether... If I could stream TV shows any time I wanted, instead of having to know ahead of time, I'd be willing to pay for that. (More than I already pay for HD & DVR cable, I mean.)"

I'm not certain why you think "over the net" is "the light", while delivering VOD over cable isn't?

"We seem to have hit a phase where companies are trying to force us to want what they want to sell us, instead of trying to sell us what we want. It's backfiring left and right and they're soon going to have to open their eyes."

Gee this almost reminds me of the IT/Web 2.0 story we had a day ago. One side wants something and thinks they're right in doing so, and the other side has to explain in great detail why what is wanted isn't reasonable. As it stands so far I don't see the "backfiring" you speak of. I do see a great deal of wishful thinking of "backfiring". Something that's right up there with the "revolution" argument, except the poster wants someone else to do the suffering and dying and they reap the benefits.

"I assume it's because they are sick of people asking. Google is GREAT for finding things that exist. The fact that you -can't- find this on Google is a huge hint that it doesn't exist. Let's not forget that the last service to provide this for free closed down because of all the abusers, even after they were asked not to abuse the system. What other service in their right mind would take their place?"

Looks to me like there eyes are plenty open. Now all we need is for slashdot to acknowledge what they see, instead of wasting it on "wishful" thinking.

*Shareholders isn't just stock purchasers. It's everyone who works for, or depends upon that companies future success.

getting schedules should be the easy part

[MrCreosote]

getting TV stations to stick to their schedules (*COUGH*BIG BROTHER*COUGH*) - that's the hard part.

Hahaaaa

[mhannibal]

Hahaaa, you freeloading hippies - that'll teach you!

Get a job and a haircut!

Re:This bends my brain banana

[NoMaster]

Here in australia every station broadcasts it's guide for free.

I think you mean "Austria"...

In Australia , only the ABC broadcasts an EPG - free or otherwise. The commercials (including SBS) only broadcast the absolute minimum required by the DTV specs, "Now & Next" - and that's more often wrong than right.

They have recently announced an EPG service - available only to those PVRs "blessed" (i.e. crippled by having skip functions removed) by broadcasters.

Or do you mean the bandwidth-sucking, unusably-low bitrate, wait 5 minutes to see what's on tonight "Video Program Guide"? It's useless, and about as accurate as the now-and-next info they grudgingly provide...

Or maybe you mean the Foxtel guide? Damned right; if I was paying > $70/Mo I'd want an accurate program guide too. Pity theirs isn't particularly accurate either - or stable, for that matter; ever since they introduced the IQ it tends to flake out non-IQ boxes...

But, in the end, an EPG is only worthwhile if it's accurate. I don't really expect the TV networks to update their guides when they deliberately run their schedule up to 55 minutes late; do you?

Re:This bends my brain banana

[mubes]

I installed myth when my kid was 3 and set it up to record shows that he would like to see. Now, when he wants to watch TV we sit down together, watch the specific program and then switch it off....seems a much healthier way to watch TV (and to get it's undoubted benefits of horizon expansion etc. etc.) than just sitting down and being fed something at the schedulers whim.

...when he was about 4 and a half we went to the cinema for the first time. Every time a new advert came on he thought it was the start of the film. Damn, we've not educated our kid to understand what adverts are...such a shame.

$60 a year is too much

[bstoneaz]

The lack of support for *free* listings on the myth boards sucks right now. $60/yr is too much for a box that is not maintenance free. At least with Tivo or a cableco box they handle everything Guess what - tons of people picked up WinTVs with encoders and those all came with software for use with a listing service that doesn't charge by the month. SO are you violating TOS if I bought a card for use with that service? MS Media Center doesn't even change for TV listings although myth kicks its ass elsewhere. No QAM support on MCE??? No CableCard support for an upgraded box??? please Maybe Apple can sort this crap out one day

Re:$60 a year is too much

[makomk]

"WinTVs with encoders"? As in that Hauppauge crap? (Seriously - all the software of theirs I've used sucks in various interesting and annoying ways. Windows MCE is OK though, if limited and hard to get hold of.)

Re:$60 a year is too much

[Professor_UNIX]

Then don't use it, but good luck finding an alternative since the guys at XMLtv are behind SchedulesDirect as well so I doubt they're going to put any effort into screen scraping TMS anymore... and thank God. Anyone who was around in the bad-old-days before DataDirect probably remembers the pain of upgrading XMLtv and MythTV just because TMS changed their fucking web site design a tad and broke the screen scraper. I'll gladly pay $5 a month for the same info I was getting from Zap2it Labs for free.

Re:$60 a year is too much

[Schraegstrichpunkt]

"WinTVs with encoders"? As in that Hauppauge crap? (Seriously - all the software of theirs I've used sucks in various interesting and annoying ways. Windows MCE is OK though, if limited and hard to get hold of.)

Who uses Hauppauge's Windows software, anyway? The point of buying a Hauppauge card is to use it under a free operating system, not under Windows. (Which is why I'm always amused by the name "WinTV" that they gave their cards.)

Re:$60 a year is too much

[Creepy]

$60 a year ($5/mo) is what every commercial provider I know of in the US charges for programming fees, maintenance free or not (Comcast, Dish, and DirectTV are all $4.99 + any sales tax last I checked). It's probably more of a price viewed as acceptable by consumers than based on cost. If you don't like that, join the co-op others mentioned.

Why do they need to be paid?

[Anonymous Coward]

Simply put, if I don't get information about the schedule of tv station X, I will in all likelihood watch tv station Y instead.

Re:Why do they need to be paid?

[grahamm]

Simply put, if I don't get information about the schedule of tv station X, I will in all likelihood watch tv station Y instead. Which should be an incentive for the stations to broadcast their schedules via the EPG.

appreciate your theft?

[oliverthered]

doesn't that depend upon copyright law.
If the site is saying that the TV listings are facts then there not covered by copyright.
All you have to do is transform the layout into your layout and then give them to your friends.

TitanTV?

[Snowspinner]

Is there a good reason not to use titantv.com? It's integrated with my TV tuner, but a quick glance sugests that it might be useable independently.

In Denmark

[Lobais]

In Denmark we use a more sophisticated system, which parses and merges 6 different online html webguides into one ultimate xmltv file, which is actually of such a good quality that a large number of danish mce users are converting it into the format of Microsoft.

The speed of this grabbing depends heavily on the layout of the webpages, but grabbing somewhat multi-threaded it takes a couple of minutes per channel, which isn't that bad for a tv server running 24x7.

One of the grabbers actually fetch so much data, that we were contacted by the page maintainers asking us if they couldn't just provide the xmltv for free, so we could spare their servers.

Most PVR users?

[radish]

Now that Linux users, and most PVR users for that matter, are nearing the end of their last fetched TV guide

Umm...it's only a guess but I don't think that "most PVR users" are using Myth or anything similar. Most PVR users are using Tivo or a cable company provided SciAtlanta box - and we certainly aren't nearing the end of our last fetched TV guide.

No, it doesn't depend

[p3d0]

Copyright violation is not theft, no matter how much anyone likes that metaphor.

Disruption of service

[Anonymous Coward]

Possibly because that is fairly benign?

Most license agreements have a clause re. disruption of service these days. Even if it wasn't part of the contract, there have been suits brought against people who do interfere with service. As you're sharing the service with others, you should like such a clause--it boils down to "don't be an asshole" & implies that if someone else is an asshole, they'll be dropped from SD before SD's abilities to get listings for everyone else is terminated.

Feel free to consult a lawyer on this issue. It is not a big deal, but I commend you for scoring some karma by spreading FUD.

Possible problem for Microsoft

[paintballer1087]

I remember looking a few weeks ago at the details of the EPG in Vista Media Center, and noticed that it said the EPG was powered by Zap2it. I'm sure that they will have some type of replacement, but it seems like everyone was dependent on Zap2it.

(I know, I know, I'm an evil person for using the abomination that is Vista, created by Satan himself in the form of Bill Gate$, who is trying to take over the world by adding DRM to everything and getting rid of all that is FOSS)

Free Alternative #1

[Organic Brain Damage]

Stop watching TV.

From: http://www.csun.edu/science/health/docs/tv&health.html/
Number of hours of TV watched annually by Americans: 250 billion

That's roughly 800 hours per person per year.

Re:Free Alternative #1

[james_orr]

You do realize that 800 hours per person per year only comes out to a little over 2 hours a day?

Glad I didn't bother with mythTV

[Nanite]

I'm going to post without reading TFA or TFT, but here goes:

I considered MythTV when I was putting together my HTPC, it was a bitch to get working, and I never could get it just right. I was told time and time again by mythTV fanatics that it was worth it in the long run. I see now that they were dead wrong.

I went with BeyondTV on Windows (Even though I hate Windows and it crashes frequently) because it was a snap to set up and I could get it working just the way I like it. Paying $80 for the program doesn't seem like a waste now.

In the end all the community support doesn't get you anywhere without some cash infusion. Sorry MythTV guys, but I think that's the rule here.

Re:Free doesn't mean "costs money" -- these are FR

[charlesnw]

Yeah thats really a lot more effort then I am willing to go through. I make a very nice salary and can certainly afford the $5.00 a month for reliable listings. I really don't want to have to run Wine and hope that microsoft doesn't change the format of the listings or "update" the service to only work with Windows.

That's why zap2it cut us off?

[aws910]

IIRC, Zap2it is terminating the free service because of that exact reason - all they said was that there were many users who were "abusing" the service. They never came out and said exactly what it is, but it must have pissed them off pretty bad. I think if you just used the service the way it was intended to be used, they wouldn't go after you.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see the "not doing anything to piss off anyone at Tribune Media Services, even if you didn't know it would." line in the agreement anyway. I don't think they'd risk their goodwill by going out of their way to sue a random mythtv user anyway.

Re:Ha ha

[rainman_bc]

This is in no way a troll I think moderators would disagree with you. And so would I - you're totally trolling.

Many people use MythTV as a PVR and media center. MythTV has hooks into Zap2it's xml listings. Kind of a nice package.

This sounds like a job for...Google!

[Tall One]

They're the masters of making a free (to customers) service viable. It's a golden opportunity...they have the bandwidth...they'd just need to create (or purchase) the content, then make it available for free in XML format, and for free (with small paid advertisements) in HTML format, easily accessible from the Google start page. Similar to what Zap2It (and possibly others) have done.

Adding Insult to Injury

[ygor]

I got a piece of Spam from Zap2It
From: Zap2It Ad-Mail
The spam had the following footer:

If you do not wish to receive solicitations sent by zap2it.com, you will have to unregister from our service. Please note that only registered users may use selected features of our site.

What a pisser.

BeyondTV

[tedgyz]

I use beyondtv and am very happy with it. Yes, it is windows and costs money for the software, but it works very well for my needs.

Anger problem.

[Anonymous Coward]

Anger problem.