Slashdot Mirror
California Utilities to Control Thermostats?
TeraBill writes "It seems that the California Energy Commission is looking to give utilities in the state the power to control the thermostats in private homes via a radio signal. The idea is that during times of significant energy crunch, the utilities could force thermostats to higher temperatures rather than having to implement a rolling blackout. The thermostats have been around for a while and new ones were on display at the CES show in Vegas this week. While I can see the argument for it, we just had a kid take over a tram system with a remote control, so how long before our thermostat gets hacked by the neighbors. And I'd almost rather have the power drop than have someone significantly raise the temperature in my home if I had a computer running there. (UPS and a graceful shutdown versus cooking something.)"
This seems like a reasonable idea if there's not enough power to go around.
If you want to make your computer shut down when the temperature gets too hot, you could probably rig something up.
cat /proc/acpi/thermal_zone/TZ00/temperature or some such to monitor the temperature, graceful shutdown if it's higher than you want.
Seriously? We're talking about a couple of degrees here. Sounds like a good idea.
..remember that California is HOT. The thermostats referred to are connected to air conditioning, not, as I first thought, heating systems!
How did 4chan leave such... typical 4 chan comments on this story so fast?
It boggles the mind.
In Texas the cities offer free "high tech" thermostats... provided you let them be able to keep your A/C powered off for 15-20 minutes per hour on peak times.
I'll pass. If the temperature is cracking 100, there is a reason I bought my HVAC system, and that is to keep my place at a bearable temperature, not allow someone else to set it the way they want.
By the time they've got this in everyone's home, intruding in their lives like some third world dictatorship rationing bread, they could have built a new nuclear power plant or two.
Stupid sexy Flanders.
yeah, ban home A/C except cooling for one room if there's an elderly people or someone with a similar vulenarbility living in the house.
http://www.cityofames.org/ElectricWeb/PrimeTimePower/Default.htm
Having everyone pulling power willy-nilly from a facility with limited output is a dumb idea. Regulating a more even amount of power to everyone is smarter.
They already have a system like this in place in south Louisiana, some electricity co-ops use load management terminals, which look like a separate electric meter connected to the air conditioner. On hot summer days, they'll shut off the A/C for up to half an hour, to prevent overload to the grid and save money. They don't shut everybody's A/C off at once, they "roll" the shutoffs through the neighborhoods. It can be a bit of an inconvenience because of the temperature rise in your house, but if your house is well insulated, you won't notice it that much. The system is totally voluntary, and you even get a minor rebate on your electric bill.
In communist russia thermostates regulate you... Wait something is wrong in this picture, ohh nooo. It is not communist russia it is the land of the free america where thermostates now regulates you.
If government would be staying out of energy provision. This would have been a market that would cater to their customers needs and higher demands means opportunity for profits. But as it is a state operation now higher demand doesn't mean profit opportunity but higher expenses. It is totally anti-efective and contradictory of what reality.
I for one do not welcome our new communist overlords, they may say it will be nothing big. But when did the state not abuse a power they have had?
State control of my thermostat does not sound at all like a good idea to me. Granted, FTFA it's only a four degree swing, but I'm not sure I'd be willing to give up that sort of control. Who sets how low to go? Would I have to or be able to compensate by setting my thermostat higher? Seems that if I'm cold, I'm going to set the temp to where I like it, "the state" be damned. I'll determine what my threshold is concerning how much I want to pay verses how much comfort I want to have, thankyouverymuch.
OTOH I'm all for using less resources and the whole green thing, but I don't think a 1984 approach is what's warranted here. How about giving me more incentives to lower my home heating bill instead?
What I can tell you is that the day that CA is able to set how warm my home is will be the day I figure out how to bypass it.
There is simply too much glass..
not wanting to be rude, but slashdot is posting some story about thermostats and meanwhile KDE 4.0 is out, but there is no story about it. or did i miss it?
I take my children to see Madonna(..), but I never for once ever thought I was in the same business.Chris Rea.
And I'd almost rather have the power drop than have someone significantly raise the temperature in my home if I had a computer running there
What the hell you running in there ? California, with the exception of the Central Valley and a few deserts (not all that populated) is not all that hot. I have run almost all forms of workstations sans AC in 40C + weather with no adverse effects.
"If the King's English was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for me!" -- "Ma" Ferguson, Governor of Texas (circa
This is a fundamentally broken system, like the cable companies relying on cable modems (in the customers' houses) to limit the amount of data customers can upload into the network per second. Uncapping, anyone? Unless the meters get smarter, "uncapping" a thermostat would be easy and very hard to detect.
Instead, why not plan properly so that electricity shortages don't happen?
As an aside, I don't think many people will take kindly to having their thermostats adjusted by an outside force. Being told "no" by technology tends to make people angry, even if it's for the greater social good. Ever seen a person get mad at a red traffic light? They don't realize that a red traffic light is not "the man" telling them no. It's a helpful, sensible warning that the cross traffic has a green light.
Right? Really, I mean c'mon...
.45 degrees in order to keep the display showing the same degree you set it at, but increasing usage ever so slightly multiplied by millions of households) to increase their profit at your expense?
And yet I see some already posting that they would be ok with it. Perplexing.
If we sit down and think for 10 minutes we can probably come up with a million reasons why this is a BAD idea. I'll help start the list, and maybe others can add to it:
1. If the utility (which charges you for their services) can raise your air conditioning temp by a couple of degrees to ease the load, what prevents them from lowering the thermostat by a degree or two (or, depending on the technology,
2. The first time someone dies from heat overexposure, the taxpayer and utility customer will end up footing the bill to cover the liability payout.
3. It is a slippery slope. What form of control of our daily life will be recommended next {for our own good, of course}? I would prefer to see some rationing from the other direction, which would likely encourage a more environmentallly friendly outcome of less energy usage. If the utility company says you have X amount of kilowatt hours for the {week | month | year} then you could ration as you saw fit, rather than having an intrusive system rationing for you. The environmental benefit is that when there is scarcity, people tend to do a better job of using less, and you would likely come in well below your ration mark.
Looks like the prefect use for a faraday cage.
quis custodiet ipsos custodes
That wasn't feasible at the time, as they would have quickly run out of available addresses, but now with IPv6 that's not such a problem anymore. I expect that the proposal will resurface again soon.
Request your free CD of my piano music.
There already exists devices for dropping loads when the supply frequency droops - a sign that the generation is not meeting the load. These are designed specifically for areas where generation will occasionally be insufficient, like developing countries. Now that North America is in the same boat (and the rest of the 'western' world is probably going to follow the same course), why not start using these things.
It wouldn't be hard to develop a small micro-controller driven box that would watch the mains supply frequency and apply small adjustments to a thermostat setting as required.
/* This sig is disabled. Press CTRL-W to enable. Thankyou */
I'll give up my life before i give up my A/C. Piss off.
You know the one thing that I really don't understand is saving energy via force, and not via using technology. Actually I really don't understand the whole drive to just save energy as saving energy doesn't necessarily even mean saving environment. We have the technology, we have had for long, to solve all our energy problems without sacrificing environment or economy. So why not build more nuclear power? It's environmentally friendly and economic. From western countries, France and Finland are both building new next generation plants, British government is leaning on building more and even in Sweden, who after the Chernobyl, made an alarmist decision to give up nuclear power, is starting to discuss on reverting that decision.
So why not? Why not build more capacity to California and other parts of US? That way you could have your all the energy you need in low price and in time you could shut down your coal and oil power generation plants and take part in struggle against global warming. That would be a real solution to a problem, not a act to play more time, as is this proposition to take over the thermostats.
Survey research tool for commercial and scientific use
Just charge people a buttload more when the system is overloaded. Only that will motivate people to conserve.
Or, regulate the industry. Power privatization has been a perfect example of the failure of the free market. All it's been is a money grab. Bastards.
expandfairuse.org
boilingfrogsyndrome
We don't call it "rolling blackouts" - we call it "load shedding".
Actually we (the public) don't call it that. Eskom, the only electricity supplier (who just managed to hike rates by 14%) call it that. And the blackouts, sorry, load shedding, take place at random times. This results in businesses like small theatres without the means to buy generators sometimes losing lots of money, and Eskom can't be sued.
This post is sounding like a parody of "in Soviet Russia", but the sad thing is it is not.
They would need special controls put on the furnaces (blowers), condensing units and cooling towers, perhaps the coils, etc. if they intend to keep people under control.
Otherwise, folks like me might be tempted to leave Big Bro's thermostat in place, just making sure all the important wires feed from my HVAC equipment to my $25 Home Depot thermostat.
How long people start pointing hair dryers at or placing heat packs over their thermostats?
Anytime time some one further regulates our lives someone will find a way around it. The best way to control demand for a limited resource is to increase the price during peak periods. Once the price gets high enough people will actually start to see the cost savings in turning down the air conditioning or better insulating their houses.
I prefer a cooler temperature however I have spent a lot of money insulating my house and only run the air conditioning in the one room I am using. I use less power than people with uninsulated houses that air condition every room even when their thermostat is set a few degrees higher.
One way or another, the electric company is going to reduce your power usage in a power emergency, either by raising thermostats or shutting off your power. The former is certainly a preferable alternative to the latter.
There is a big difference between what you link to, and what California proposes. California proposes that every new home built, and every home with major modifications be forced to include one of these thermostats. City of Ames electric department offers a $5 discount to everyone who allows them to install a remote-control thermostat.
Write your own Choose Your Own Adventure. http://www.freegameengines.org/gamebook-engine/
My wife takes medication that makes her very sensitive to heat. In her state of health, raising the temperature could kill her.
No way they'll put that in without me having a backup (as we do now).
I bet finding a better way to detect when growhouses for dope are stealing power would have a bigger effect.
Growhouses use ALOT of power, & growers go to great lengths to evade detection. I've heard of people closing down entire places of business in a split second because they get a call about a power company truck being seen anywhere near the growhouse.
I know here in Florida there's alot of houses in upscale neighborhoods that nobody suspects for growing dope. There was also just a bit about this in the news around here.
Growhouses are already going to have the air conditioner(s) cranked way down to keep the heat generated from the lights down. Various things like fans & water pumps take the place of a normal homes' power usage. When you consider that in these upscale houses there's going to be anywhere from 10-50 thousand watts of lights going between 18 and 24 hours a day, the problem becomes very obvious.
Finding one growhouse stealing power would save dozens of people from sweating their ass off.
This is also California we're talking about, if you don't think there's alot of hydroponic grow houses tucked away in theese million dollar houses, you're a fool.
I'm not a pro-dope advocate, I don't even smoke, but legalizing it would devalue it & make problems like this less common.
In Ottawa, Ontario, Canada, they have implemented Peaksaver which is a similar thermostat control program during the summer. A great feature is that it also allows the home owner to control their thermostat over the Internet.
Both are stupid ideas.
Having everyone pulling power from a properly built infrastructure so that it can handle said demand is ideal. I don't know how long California has been having this problem, but it has been at least ten years and if you can't at least begin to increase your services in a decade, then you don't deserve to be in business.
It's not like the energy isn't available. They just don't have the power grid to handle it. Rather than Orwell-ing me, how about improving your damn services?
I'm not sure I'd want to be making too many complaints to the electricity company about my power bill. They could make things pretty uncomfortable for you if they took a disliking to you!
Seriously, I don't like the idea of this being legislated in this way.
I think that a voluntary system could be devised that would get consumers to want this and participate voluntarily. (And I'm sure it has, though I'm too fuddled to try and find a link at this hour of the morning.)
The program I recall was that the energy company would either provide the thermostat free of charge or at a heavily rebated price, and that every time there was a need, they could send a code to your thermostat to raise the temperature by a few degrees to get your system to cycle down for an hour or two. In return for allowing them to do this, the customer who had their system sent such a code would receive compensation in the form of a five dollar (or some other small) credit on their bills.
Also, if you're not home and your thermostat is off, or you're off on vacation, the system records the number of signals sent, not how many times the thermostat was actually raised, so you'd get rewarded even if you weren't inconvenienced.
I'd go for that in a heartbeat, and I think a lot of other people would too, if it were explained to them in this way. Even though I'm living in a household with three other people who all NEED the AC, I don't think having it bumped up by a few degrees would adversely affect us very much at all.
I don't think we need legislation when a voluntary program could do the trick just fine.
"It's not like the energy isn't available. They just don't have the power grid to handle it. Rather than Orwell-ing me, how about improving your damn services?"
Right. How about they raise your taxes? Oh right that would be the "scariest agency" poll.
Let those who want to participate do so, those that don't want to to also do so and for those who find at times exception to participation, but otherwise would participate, the ultimate control.
Everyone pays for what they use, here in atlanta with teh water issues, more and more are turning to rain collection systems and the same do it yourself attitude can be applied regarding power.
Simple way to accomplish the same means: raise the price during peak hours. Works for cell phones, right?
In Scotland they already have a system that the local meter operator decides when you heating comes on called WeatherCall. You essentially leave your heating on all the time and a two rate radio teleswitched controled meter switches the heating circuit on based on the weather. Granted i don't live that far north so i don't know how people like it or not or feel their liberty is in some way restricted. All i think they care about is being warm when it's cold, which basically they are.
may not be relevant due to the fact it's based around the weather, but equally the meter operator knows what kind of load it will need and when it will need it as it decides.
That said though, a well insulated house will reduce the need for either AC or Heating... build better...
In California If you produce more electricity than your use from the solar panels on your house you not only don't get to sell your excess electricity at wholesale rates you just get credits that expire on your anniversary of having net metering. This is unlike Germany where you get to sell your excess solar generated electricity at retail prices.
Basically PG&E is going to make about $2,000 dollars off of me because I don't use enough electricity. (maybe I need to move some pizza boxes from the office to home, no I can hear the fans in the other room at work even with the door closed)
The only debate we are having is to replace the hot water heaters or the stove with electric instead of gas so that we can increase our electric usage.
California has an electricity shortage and many of their residents are scaling back solar installations and or scheming to use more electricity and they are going to install stupid devices that can be defeated by walking down to the drugstore and getting an instant heat pad to put on the thermostat. (Of course the real nerds will put a second thermostat on the hair dryer that is pointed at the radio controlled thermostat and have it blow hot air at the thing to get the house cool. I guess I need to go patent a really obvious design and get manufacturing lined up if this stupid nanny state regulation gets passed.
Gee this a bad idea that has an obvious workaround by the dishonest and has lots of room for kickbacks and ignores the cause of the problem, I give it about an 80% chance of passing if the elected officials in Sacramento get paid their bribes^w campaign contributions.
Work bio at MMWD
...in a northern state, we pay for the power we use. So, if we use more, we pay more. It's a pretty simple model and it works real well. I suppose in a socialist society, it is a problem because only a few are paying for everyone's power and so they do have to ration it.
I don't want my t-stat to have an ip addr. I don't want my CAR to have an ip addr. I don't want ANYONE mucking around in my gear or my life, remotely, for some 'greater good'.
everytime there is a bright idea about how to control other peoples' lives, its usually horribly thought out and defective by design.
the only POSSIBLE way this would work is if there was a priority scheme where SOME non-critical things would be remotely controlled and some things always left locally admin'd. but that won't work as we don't have 2 power grids!
hey how about this - instead of limiting peoples' use - why not (ready for it?) BUILD UP and re-invest in our infrastructure.
this short-term thinking is why the US is going to hell in a handbasket. we are not 'running out' of electricity. build it the fuck up and stop trying to limit use on things that should not be limited!
--
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
"what's that noise?"
;)
"its the machine that goes PING!"
"where is it?" where is that sound coming from??"
"its in all our wall sockets, mate. nothing you can do about it."
--
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
That prevent the proper and adequate supply of electricity. The hoops my local has to go through to increase generating capacity is shameful. It practically comes down to bribing state representatives in order to build plants. Hell, even when providers try to build "green" sources they are fought in courts by one group or another. It has become downright disgusting how easy it is to prevent any improvement, green or otherwise to the system. It is mainly these roadblocks which result in coal plants being kept in service longer. In some cases making improvements at said plants is difficult as well because of regulation.
You want to ban air condition, then get the government to do so first in their own buildings. Make them come up to the same specifications they impose on commercial and private properties. Make them conserve. Down here in Georgia we are suffering from a regulation caused water shortage. Stupid rules, monolithic government agencies, and ease of filing suits with willing courts have resulted in Georgia flushing billions of gallons down stream with no study to back it up. When the recent reviews didn't turn out like the conservationist wanted they simply went to the courts and lawmakers to get their view imposed. I have two lakes near me near 20 feet down. One of which could generate electricity cleanly provided it wasn't flushing twenty times the water needed for generation down the river. Rivers which because of the volume are near flood stage meaning rains push them over their banks.
If we cannot have comfort in our own homes then something is desperately wrong with the system. We are a nation with great resources, the technology to use them efficiently and cleanly, yet at every corner some interest group gets the government to impose such heavy handed regulation that the public suffers. We are a country that fought for freedom and then began making laws to give it away. Now I bet your the type that would be screaming at government ids and government healthcare yet you turn around and want intervention?
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
As a comment to the article, is mentioned that the computer would melt if the AC would shut down.
Just as it has UPS monitors to know when to shut down, it should have hardware monitors to know whens a bit to hot to work properly and shut down.
2 words: Big Brother (the book, not the TV show)
Most human behaviour can be explained in terms of identity.
You can always hack that 4-degree swing in the thermostat. Too warm? Use a blow dryer to "persuade" your thermostat that it is too warm to get the AC to kick in.
I expect a torrent of lawsuits to follow when people had the power sockets their computers are connected to shut down, losing unsaved work. It'l probably end in a class-action lawsuit that will prevent power companies from limiting user consumption in any way for the next twenty years.
USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
This seems like a reasonable idea...
Then lets apply it in a lot more places. Remote locks on refrigerators when you've eaten enough for the day. Or cut off your water when you've used your quota. Maybe a machine that dispenses your cigarettes for the day ala 5th Element. Maybe the government thinks you should exercise more so they regulate your TV time. Because, let's face it, a technical solution is just so much more effective than education.
Every really insane piece of regulation started with a reasonable idea.
I think a better solution would be some type of feedback that showed people the demand on the grid and let them throttle their own electricity usage. If that feedback mechanism showed them ways to shift their electricity usage to less expensive times of the day and shows them how much money they saved it would be almost as effective in a much less dickish, Dick Cheney kind of way.
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
if you allow this, it will eventually extend to more devices, eventually mandated use of the same operating system and devices, you wait! land of the free is a joke
I can't believe so many people on Slashdot are okay with this. Are these the same people who cry every time the government wants to expand its surveillance powers? That is something that will, in all probability, not affect anyone -- a bad precedent, but of no immediate import. And yet when the government wants to come in and change the temperature in your house, it's no big deal.
Sincerely, Derek
A curious little blog
1) why are they proposing to mandate these remote-control thermostats in private residences instead of government buildings?
2) why don't they just shut down the state and local governments on days when power usage looks like it might spike enough to overload the grid? I.e. tell the government employees to just stay home like state governments in the north-east do for snowstorms and leave all the government buildings set at the lowest-energy-use level necessary to prevent damage to each building's infrastructure?
Significantly reducing the government's use of energy below even the level necessary for the government to operate for the limited duration of a predicted energy emergency would preclude a need for the government to usurp control of private citizen's homes but as this is California the regulators would much rather establish a new foothold of control over private behavior than exercise existing control over the state government's behavior.
Dual thermostats. I'd put one in that the power company could fiddle with all they wanted to that was in no way connected to my A/C or heating unit, which would still be controlled by my own thermostat.
It's a perfect time for being wasted.
A perfect time to watch the stars.
- Burden Brothers, "Beautiful Night"
I would liken the issue to the the draft. (No, not the one coming in the window when the A/C is not working.) Back when we had a mandatory draft, we all, as a society, cared whether we went to war. But once we had a voluntary draft, many in the Elite don't have to care, at least not in the same way: It won't be their kids. And though they pay lip service to the notion that it's a hard choice, that choice isn't felt by them in the way it is by others. It's below their radar. And they can indulge the illusion that the only reason people join the military is that they want to. The idea that they cannot afford to is foreign to them. This moves toward a two-tier society of haves and havenots, because one can afford to just not care about the human cost.
In the case of energy, the risk of a blackout affects us all. So it's a reason to build more infrastructure. But once the system is "managed" and society has been divvied up into groups who "of course must have power" and "of course must not" in order for the Greater Good to be served, the question of whether to have more infrastructure becomes much more questionable since it is more distant to the decision-makers. I somehow doubt that politicians will have their thermostats going down--what about the foreign dignitaries that might be visiting? Can't inconvenience them. And we'll find that rich people no longer live in "homes", they live in "free-standing buildings that happen to have home-like amenities", or some other dodge that regular people can't figure out... Like the way tax loopholes work. They will also be distanced.
It also becomes like the way we expect a better health care system from a Congress that has its own health care plan that is better than everyone else's. The day Congress is required by law to have the worst health care of any US citizen is the day that health care will be really reformed. The day that going to war means the people who decided it have their kids yanked out of wherever they are and put on the front lines of the first ground force with handheld weapons entering the war, that's the day we'll know when a war is justified. And this plan for thermostat control, I assume it will have similar issues awaiting similar fixes that will never come.
What it is to be a society, at some level, is to all be in the same game. This proposal sounds like it makes everyone the same, but the nature of the dodges will not be apparent and the nature of the risks will be manageable by some and not by others. Power outages are more harsh, but they are also more truthful. They serve as a reminder that something is amiss. Making them less visible is not a certain recipe for making this country better, since the sluggish nature of democracy makes it react only to things that are easily articulated. And this would make it all blurry and disputable, dissipating political energy that might otherwise be better used.
In the end, if global warming ever does take hold, the thermostat may be the absolute only thing in the entire house that anyone wants to burn energy on, so it can't be a solution. The solution expressed by caitriona81 in a related post seems more like it's on the right track.
Kent M Pitman
Philosopher, Technologist, Writer
Why does CA make headlines when TSHTF? Missouri offered this option over a year ago. Consider the extremes of wealth and poverty in CA and you will see why this will only penalize the less affluent. The Beverly Hillbillies, Santa Barbarians, and Carmel Squares will continue cooling their mansions to as low as they want (read: can afford--which translates to obscene amounts of $ to common people) all the while keeping their glass walls wide open to the beautiful vistas, swimming pools and landscaping. Why not initiate restrictions at the TOP of the food chain this time??? To paraphrase Diogenes, "Find me one honest consumer earning over $200,000 a year that will close off half (or 3/4) of zir estate and make a serious effort to NOT cool their burbs!"
Instead of turning down thermostats automatically, allow the electric companies to change the rate based on the load (vs what is available). Yes, that has been covered in other comments here, but bear with me. Have a way for the power company to report the rate to homeowners. Then provide a way for homeowners to automatically respond to the change in rate. If someone wants to reduce/turn off their A/C, fine. If someone wants to turns off lights, great. If someone wants to power down computers, terrific. If you don't want to reduce your electric consumption at all, so be it. You can help to fund the next power plant.
I often get mad at red traffic lights as 'the man' has mounted cameras on them so that he can fine me and endorse my driving license if i run the red light even though there is no cross traffic and/or the sensors in the road cannot detect my vehicle (hence i have to wait until another vehicle queues up behind me that is big enough to trigger the traffic lights to change to green).
They whose government reduces their essential liberties for temporary security, receive neither liberty nor security.
If I recall correctly, folks around here aren't particularly thrilled when companies like Comcast impose artificial bandwidth ceilings on their paying customers. Why then is it such a good thing when other service providers do it? How is this any less intrusive?
"Ask not what your country can do for you." --John F. Kennedy
When there is an energy crunch, the state and the power companies
can limit household energy so that businesses like Wal-Mart can run at full
capacity.
in the name of the environment.
We have something like that here in the summer too.
If you let the power company turn off your AC for a little each day, ( completely, not just change the temp ) they give you a discount. But its totally opt-in so if you are at home or have pets there is no risk of them getting hot when its 100+ outside.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Today we take over the thermostats, tomorrow we take over the world!
Ok. So California implements retail price caps, then wonders why there's unbounded consumption?
Simple fix: get rid of the retail price caps.
Key to financial independence: Spend less than you earn. Save and invest the difference. Do it for a long time.
About two years ago, Colorado Springs Utilities started offering something similar with an incentive. IIRC, they offered a free fancy thermostat and/or some discount. Sounds like a good idea to cut excess usage: if are not using it, turn it down.
http://csu.org/environment/conservation_res/energy/load_cycling/index.html "The LCPP is a partnership between Colorado Springs Utilities and Carrier Corporation. The LCPP allows Springs Utilities to adjust residential customers' central air conditioning thermostats upwards two to four degrees during periods of high demand for electric power (usually between 11 a.m. and 8 p.m.). Thermostats may be adjusted up to 25 times each year."
during power crises, just charge disgustingly high amounts for above-average-household loads. use that money to build new generation stations. make the average usage per husehold regular price, and anything past that 10 times normal.
the capitalist market would quickly adapt, as people scrambled to be more energy efficient than the joneses.
My local university tried something like this. They had a fairly powerful computer (64-processors, SGI system) that they used for numerical simulations. It wasn't quite a supercomputer, but for the research group involved, it was their very own "supercomputer."
Enter Physical Plant. They were in charge of providing chilled water for air conditioning. In the dead of the Canadian winter, they failed to see the point of maintaining the 4 degree Celsius chilled water supply. Of course, a good sized supercomputer requires a fairly steady supply of chilled water.
Lot's of simulations bit the dust in the name of "efficiency" and "savings". I'm not sure if the supercomputer ever did work right after the first major overheat, when they completely turned off the chilled water supply.
Here in South Africa, where electricity demand also currently outstrips supply for various stupid reasons, the government's police of "managing" the problem includes just such a thing: Broadcasting current overall electricity usage in an overlay on television channels, with colour-coding, when usage is high (i.e. it shows it 'going into the red', and asks people to turn off all non-essential appliances etc.). I suppose they've had moderate success, and I suppose it helps, but of course it's not enough. Amongst other things, they've also been working to 'educate' the public to use electricity more sparingly, and encourage the use of e.g. more energy-efficient light bulbs and so on (I think they even had a program where they gave away millions of them).
Thegood idea, however, would be to have time-dependent pricing on power. Power production is very expensive at some times of day, typically mid-day during the air-conditioning season, and very cheap at other times of day, in fact, nearly cost-free from midnight to 5 AM, when the power plants are still turning over but nobody's using much electricity. A lot of people would revise their lifestyles to buy electricity at low rates instead of high if the price accurately reflected the actual cost of production.
Would this save the planet? Well, consider; solar panels product most power at mid-day, and more when it's sunniest and when the days are longest... so solar panels produce electricity at the *highest price* times of day-- pricing that reflected actual power cost would mean the power sold from solar panels would sell at a premium.
http://www.geoffreylandis.com
You mean people SHOULDN'T draw the power they need, to live the life they think appropriate for themself?
See, this problem was detected many years ago, so we invented this thing called "Engineering" to deal with it. People who practice "Engineering" do things like estimate the expected load, build production and distribution facilities for that load, find back up sources of supply for that load to increase reliability, then maintain and improve that system to stay ahead of the actual demand. This "Engineering" thing was a really remarkable breakthrough. Completely eliminated the need for that rationing thing you seem to be heading for.
Behold, this dreamer cometh. Come now, and let us slay him... and we shall see what will become of his dreams.
How about they build another power plant instead and meet their energy needs through, oh I don't know, planning for capacity?!?!
Time to bring out the tin foil! Not for hats, but to block the antenna!
Bryan
We'll need IPv8 to deal with that!
Behold, this dreamer cometh. Come now, and let us slay him... and we shall see what will become of his dreams.
Sure the blackout may be preferred for you, but, your preference is shortsighted. The last time I was in a big power outage during a heatwave was in the north. A guy who had been injured working on high voltage lines(and was disabled) died due to the lack of cooling.
As long as the thermostatic controls apply to all business and home locations within reason, it is a lot less invasive/costly/deadly than rolling blackouts. (now if they would just insulate building better in CA)
Great, just what we need, the state government restricting us more and more.
If you live in Southern California, you know this is a bad thing, and all the comments I have read have obviously come from people who DONT live here.
Deserts not that populated? HARDLY.
depends on what you consider the desert. if you mean the high desert, sort of, the Victor Valley (hesperia, victorville, barstow/daggett) have almost half a million people living in it alone.
The Inland empire, (population: 4 million +) where I call home, is mostly desert, especially east of the I-15. Though technically almost every part of southern california that's more than 20 miles away from the coast is reclaimed desert, and it gets hellishly hot during the summer. So hot that the minute you turn the AC off, you can feel the temp rise in the house 10-20 degrees.
Then you have the coachella valley, AKA, hell, which is also heavily populated (surprisingly for us who live in the IE, just how people in the LA area are shocked people actually live in the IE and believe nothing exists east of Kellogg Hill.)
Now who wants to say the deserts ARENT populated?
Another reason this is bad:
people with health problems who will die due to the heat if their AC gets cut off by the electric company, despite how they have exceptions for people like that, you know mistakes will be made.
Not to mention they'll use this as an excuse to charge us more monthly for this new "service" to help us while the real electricity problems go unsolved.
Good 'ol socialist states of kalifornia.
My sister whines about the cost of heating & cooling her home, like someone forced her to build a 5400 square foot four-bedroom home with 3-story tall ceilings that needs 2 air conditioning systems, all for her and two kids. My in-laws' huge house also requires 2 central air conditioning systems and has two kitchens and only the two of them live there. My father and his old hag bitch wife live in a six bedroom home with a great-room bigger than my entire condo. These huge homes are causing a drain on our resources. Why should people who don't build or live in them have to suffer because of the stupidity of resource hogs?
Run and catch, run and catch, the lamb is caught in the blackberry patch.
Having everyone pulling power from a properly built infrastructure so that it can handle said demand is ideal.
Not really. Your idea would require building a grid that could handle every air conditioner in the city coming on simultaneously (say, for 20 minutes, then staying off for the rest of the hour). What's being done here is that the power company is ensuring that no more than, say, 1/3rd of air conditioners on at any given time. The same amount of energy is being delivered over an hour, but with less required infrastructure. I don't see why I'd want to pay a higher electric bill to support building the infrastructure required to handle an unregulated peak load, when some minor adjustments to when air conditioners come on would make the current grid sufficient.
MG&E in Wisconsin has been offering this as a voluntary service for a while: http://www.mge.com/home/services/power_cntl.htm
The idea is you get a $25 credit for having this installed and then $8/hour of shutoff time and they specific times when they will not shut off your AC. I've seriously thought about it since the possible shutoff times are pretty much while I'm at work.
... the peak electricity consumption is still typically in the summer.
Here in Ontario, the power utility (Ontario Hydro) never has issues with providing power in the coldest days of winter, because very few homes or businesses here are electrically heated. We get some pretty hot days in the summer, though, and we end up having to buy electricity from neighboring provinces and states to keep the A/C humming.
Look at the tomato! Isn't it sad? He can't dance! Poor tomato!
I have to wonder why everyone's trying to put a band-aid on the problem.
Because politics rarely involves one person getting their way, no matter how good. So the practical person, for better or worse, examines compromises.
I'm actually seriously with you on that. Lots of people fear nuclear. But if you really believe either he global warming issue, or the fact that we're peaking on oil, we're going to need cheap, clean energy soon. I'm all for wind and solar, but don't expect that to deploy in enough time to really work. So your band-aid (heh--see, everyone has one--it's only natural) of filling the gap with a bunch of nuclear plants sounds like the only way forward that makes much sense to address the cause, not the symptom... at least in the next 10-20 years.
Just, please, let's put them above the plain that might be flooded by global warming. And definitely not in the basement of anyone with a government-controlled thermostat.
Kent M Pitman
Philosopher, Technologist, Writer
Our public utility gives you a discount if you install a remote that allows them to kick down your AC in the summer during the day when their power demand is high. I don't participate in it but I don't see anything wrong with it. It's set to actually turn off the compressor but leave the fan going iirc. It cycles it, so that the compressor only works a certain percentage of the time.
I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
AC, as implemented, is a waste of energy. Just ban vapor compression AC and design better buildings or require the use of a legitimate cooling technology. Alternatives are more reliable, cheaper to run, consume less energy, and would totally blast away the price of any compressor driven system if built in the same quantity.
You say you pay for the service.
How much are you willing to pay for the infrastructure needed to supply it?
Present construction costs [for a coal-fired plant] run to US$ 1,300 per kilowatt, or $650 million for a 500 MW unit. Fossil fuel power plant
This is what means to have a coal-fired plant in your back yard, as we do.
Ours is privately owned but pays next to nothing in local taxes, thanks to a sweetheart deal with our state and county legislatures. The power is for export, not local consumption.
A large coal train called a "unit train" may be two kilometers (over a mile) long, containing 100 cars with 100 tons of coal in each one, for a total load of 10,000 tons. A large plant under full load requires at least one coal delivery this size every day. Plants may get as many as three to five trains a day, especially in "peak season", during the summer months when power consumption is high.
you should read This Book
Anyone pick up on the very obvious communist statement:
Dr. Rosenfeld said. If you can control rotating outages by letting everyone in the state share the pain, he said, theres a lot less pain to go around.
First they're going to tell us what lightbulbs we're allowed to use, now this?
You know how many old/infirm people die every year due to the heat or cold?
Another poster had it right: We pay for a service, make the #(*& service perform like its supposed to. Stop being afraid of atom energy and build more reactors. Right now, its the safest form of energy with the greatest amount of return we can produce.
-- If we don't stand up for our rights, now, there will be no right to stand up for them later.
In Oklahoma. I had one. It just shuts down the air conditioner for a few minutes. That's it. They roll through the people with them installed so they can peak shave the power requirements.
It keeps the utilities from having to build more capacity, saves a bit of energy, and prevents blackouts during overloads.
It was part of an initiative from the Carter administration. It all went away later because subsequent administrations played the fool and couldn't be bothered with thinking about this country's energy gluttony.
But it has been done before. It wasn't intrusive. It worked. And it got me a discount on my electric bill because I signed up.
Oh, I want that. Seriously the ability to monitor every wall socket and tell how much power drain each one is taking. Code up some optimization routines, give access to the power company to certain appliances in my house and get a little kickback money-wise.
So long as they don't know what they are turning off, I get something for the added inconvenience, and I specifically give them access rights myself: I have no qualms with that.
Though a massive solar array in death valley would probably be easier... it gets really hot... it's sunny and we have extra peak power flowing in. Honestly, California should buy up some rights to that new mass producing solar panel tech and setup a shop and start producing. Pave that hot (drive through during the night) part of the state with enough panels to provide peak power to the western part of the country. That, and eastern Washington should just be a windfarm.
It is no longer uncommon to be uncommon.
People shouldn't feel entitled to draw lots of power whenever they want without paying extra for it. If this was a free market system, the supplier would never allow people to draw willy-nilly, without a substantial price increase. You can't have it both ways.
Why not just force them to install solar cells to supplement the building/home's electricity during peak hours?
The peak hours are caused by periods of increased radiant energy by the sun. IOW, during peak solar efficiency.
I suspect, however, that PG & E doesn't want such a solution because it would dilute their monopoly on power. So rather than give the customers what they want and need (by building generation capacity), or allowing them an innovative solution to the problem (solar supplementation), or control demand through increased pricing during peak hours - somewhat unethical because the power company determines "peak hours"), they would rather opt for a solution which makes their customers suffer, while providing no actual benefit to the power company.
This "solution" is the worst of both worlds.
The society for a thought-free internet welcomes you.
Once again, it seems like companies want control over the product after they sell it to us to excuse themselves from having to make the product good enough in the first place. We have the RIAA/MPAA making crappy products and selling them at excess prices, then trying to block us from making copies via copyright law. We have the telcos/cable cos trying to manipulate (using traffic shaping, throttling, or just out right attempting to block traffic) the "unlimited" internet connection we pay for because their infrastructure isn't up to snuff. Now it seems like the power companies are following suit and trying to control how much we can draw from the grid to make up for the fact that the infrastructure of the grid is not up to the demands that their customers are placing on it.
Attention Corporations: If you sell a product that doesn't suck or keep your distribution system up to the demands, your customers will be happier and will buy more of your product. We don't need you to keep going to the government to pass laws to excuse your crappy product.
Attention Innovators: If the corporations continue to ignore the demands of the customers, you might be able to make a killing by creating a better product. In California, more efficient A/C systems might become the rage is this law passes.
Wishful thinking, isn't it?
A local city blog, The Cincinnati Beacon covered it from a Big Brother standpoint but I can't think of a piece of information they don't have about me already. A commenter on the site said the same thing.
Hell, they're in control of our households anyhow. They know when you're there, when you watch tv, curl your hair, surf the internet, pretty much all by your usuage. If you have service with them, they have your name, ss# and personal info, credit report and all the details of your financial life at their disposal. If you work for them, they also get your pee on demand, guilty of drug use or not, an extra special background check and your solemn promise to barely mention that you work there, let alone anything you might actually see or do. I don't like it but the few dollars in savings is tempting. A few minutes of turning off the air conditioner seems trivial in comparison to what they already have on us.
Put one of these in your window. Simple.
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
It should be obvious that California - at least southern California - is not fit for human habitation. Expending arbitrary resources so that people can live there is stupid.
Microsoft comes out with a "remote power management API" that allows PG&E to shut down your computer remotely when it feels it has to. Reasonable idea also? I don't know, it seems like ALL past efforts from various companies to do various versions of remotely controlling computers has led to Slashdot outrage, so why is this all of a sudden different?!?!?!
Also, don't these remote control features have the potential for abuse, as Slashdot also always likes to point out? All of a sudden, government has your best interest at heart? What gives here?
Good idea. I'm in my shop cutting wood on the table saw. The power company sees that my neighborhood is due for a blackout, so they turn off the lights in the shop (which has a higher draw averaged over time since the saw is only on 2% of the time). Brilliant! How about they turn off my fridge for a few hours after I go shopping? What about the garage door opener? I bet if they did this, someone would die the first day.
Just raise the damn price during the day. People will change all by themselves.
Basically, if a million people all draw the power they think they need to live the life that's appropriate to them, enough of them will vastly overestimate how much power they need that the consequence will be that some people will not be able to get power they genuinely DO need.
Sorry if you find this fact hard to accept, but it's true.
(BTW, what language is "themself" supposed to be?)
How about we take that fancy gizmo-setting-altering technology and put it to use on electricity meters. Instead of charging the same rate at peak usage as at 03:00 everyone's meter changes the price of electricity constantly to reflect demand. Also, put a big fat display on the front of the meter showing what the current price is. The first time people see they're paying $1.50/kWh I can guarantee you that all the thermostats in California will get turned up instantly.
More generally, when people end up paying the actual price for the electricity they use, lights will go off when they're not needed and CFTs will become economical. Putting one shirt in the dryer will cease to be an option. There will be a sudden increase in demand for electronic devices where the on/off button *actually turns the power off*.
Neat idea, but I would tie it to energy prices and make it directly under the control of the consumer. The utility could then increase prices significantly when they're in a crunch, and my devices could power off when I decide it's too expensive for them to run.
OK, I do not want on-star start and stop my car, lo-jack to see where I go, or the power company control my thermostats.
Seriously. The US has to educate its citizens not to over-use energy by cooling their homes to 22C. I understand that airco is necessary in offices or workspaces, even homes at warm climates, but what is the point of moving to Miami when you have to wear winter jackets because you can freeze to death in: malls, restaurants, cars and buses, everywhere else.
Most of the US people I know down here (in Costa Rica) maintain sub 22C in their offices, then they wonder why they have allergy, cough all the time and have cold symptoms. All this at 1200m height where in a properly built house you do not need airco at all. It is sunshine out there, middle of the dry season, and I have several computers running in a room (yes I am working on all of them, and they go offline when I am done).
OH, if you come down here to visit the beaches: get a room without air-conditioning so you can enjoy the tropics as they are.
PS: I do not mean to flame anyone, I really mean that the airco overuse has to go!
California may be hot if you're from Alaska. Me? I moved here from Florida, and I was chilly pretty much the whole first year I lived here... clear through the summer. Remember, we have that cold ocean current coming down from the arctic controlling our weather; not the east coast's Gulf Stream.
Remember the old Mark Twain quote about how the coldest winter he ever saw was when he was in California for the summer? It's true. Sure, we'll have the occasional 90-degree heat wave. But mostly, it's in the lower 50's now, and it'll be in upper 50's and mid 60's come summer.
cya,
john
Imagine all the people...
In Soviet Russia, thermostat controls you!
Central Services - We do the work, you do the pleasure!
"Hi there. I want to talk to you about ducts. Do your ducts seem old fashioned, out of date? Central Services' new duct designs are now available in hundreds of different colors to suit your individual tastes..."
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
Why not instead regulate the power companies so they don't tamper with capacity and force rolling blackouts to raise prices? Enron? Anyone?
Loading...
They are already getting the ability to shut down selected homes with those new Time Of Use meter the public is paying for. Now they want to be able to control devices inside the homes? Not so fast big brother, not so fast.
LoB
"Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
ComEd in Illinois offers this on a voluntary basis - and they give you a monthly credit for doing so. http://www.exeloncorp.com/ourcompanies/comed/comedres/save_energy_money/energy_savings_program_with_comed.htm They hook up something to the air conditioner (outside the house) and this allows them to cycle the loads in a given region. They have well-detailed arrangements for how much time the air conditioner can be off at a single time and during which hours it can occur. It seems like a very good way to minimize the system load and they pass some of their savings on to the consumer. My friend has been using this for a few years and they have only need to activate the thing a couple times. It's especially useful for people that have an empty house during the day.
1 court decision. If they can't provide the service and cut you off it's one thing. But to have police-enforced power to tell you what the temperature of your home should be? Ok, seriously, why doesn't California secede first? Home of the brave... right. Here's an idea: (let's see how that flies in California) give utilities the power to stop television broadcasting and cable transmission to force people to save power on TV usage. How is it even conceivable that in THESE UNITED STATES a state is even considering a vote on this? The whole appeal of the electric power was that it provided a universal supply that could be used for any device without having to report to anyone what these devices were. If utilities have the power to regulate how you use your devices, the game is over. You might as well have every electric utility require its own kind of power socket and its own type of power supply. I mean, why would anyone care if the devices they buy are regulated after the purchase by an entity A (power company) or an entity B (the device manufacturer)? At least in the 2nd case there will be constant pressure to improve quality (just like there is with cell phones). Wow! Just Wow! I just can't wait for all the shills telling me how I ignore community needs and how I lack empathy for the poor people. C'mon. I dare you. I double dare you. I am not even going to mention the myriad of alternative generation methods that are coming about right now. This is the beginning of the end of this bankrupt philosophy: "we plan for your own good and if can't figure out how to plan your good, the things which you can do in your life will be cut and you will not be able to provide them for yourself because we are the ones who plan".
Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
Some kid would hack the system and then cause rolling blackouts, by simply turning everyone's AC to 40 when the temp outside is really warm, like in the 90's or above.
Only 'flamers' flame!
Does slashdot hate my posts?
This reminds me of Trempealeau county in Wisconsin where they have all but outlawed windmills. Trempealeau county is a rural community with lots of available wind. But due to someone's lobbying efforts the county board has decided windmills are too loud and cast dangerous shadows! In particular the lobbyist has convinced the board that the rhythmic nature of the shadows and sound will cause health effects in children. So now windmills constructed in Trempealeau county must be at least one mile from the nearest house. You can not draw a circle two miles in diameter in Trempealeau county without overlapping a house.
The problem is not just generating the power, but also delivering it. This is especially a problem if, for instance, all your power use is downstate and all of your power generation is upstate. Sudden shifts in power usage can overload points in the grid and fry transformers, trunk lines, substations, small plants caught in the cross-fire. That is a big cause of roving black outs. The big black out in upstate New York was not caused by a lack of power, but a difference in phase between two different plants (which can severely damage turbines). A plant had to shut down to avoid damage, which caused the grid to redirect power, which caused...
Anyway, you could conceivably solve the problem by running a lot more, much larger wire and heavier duty transmission infrastructure, but, at the moment the problem is that they don't know where to *do it*. Deregulation and haphazard growth has made a maze of wiring and the electricity takes paths they don't expect. Because of deregulation, no one can agree on whose job it is to fix.
Another decent conservation measure is just to put a display in the house that shows what you are being charged for and how much you are using. Charge more for peak usage and watch the load drop. There have been studies demonstrating that cars can get better mileage with the simple of expedient of displaying the instantaneous gas mileage. Some models now have that as a feature. Even people who are not particularly conservation conscious start acting differently when the information is right in front of them. A lot less Orwellian and lets market dynamics do its work.
This is probably being pushed by Edison. They already offer "free" monitoring devices that curtail energy use during peak periods. Remember that as the industry is currently set up, the LESS power you use, the MORE money they make. So they're all for conservation, because it profits EDISON.
But the root of the problem isn't any "energy crunch" or even CA's very high usage. It's that a decade ago, some idiots decided "deregulation"** would be a wonderful idea, and did so.. but one of the requirements was that CA must sell all its generating plants. Which they did. To out of state and foreign interests... who now sell the power they produce (from plants formerly owned by CA_ back to CA at over 5 times the base price before "deregulation", with a rate structure that doesn't even allow you to run ONE LIGHT BULB before you get dinged for the highest possible rates (so the actual increase is somewhat more than 5x. My average bill went from $8 to $40 -- and I use 25% *less* power now than I did then. And my bill went up about 30% since last year even tho I've cut my usage *again*, by some 20%. Naturally my bill is much higher in winter, when I need to use the electric heaters.)
**CA copied the Montana Power model, blithely ignoring the fact that MT Power's "deregulation" was a scam perpetrated by MT Power's owners as an exit strategy -- I forget the details but it put millions in their own pockets, devalued MT Power's stock value to essentially zero (destroying the retirement funds many MT residents had counted on), and quadrupled the cost of electricity in MT... where probably half of all homes have electric heat, because that used to be cost-effective if you couldn't get natural gas (the cheapest option).
Los Angeles' then-mayor Reardon (THE man we need for President!) saw through this scam and refused to join in, despite massive pressure from Sacramento. So Los Angeles still owns its generating system, and L.A. residents still enjoy low rates and freedom from rolling blackouts.
I foresee a thriving market in portable heaters/coolers, followed by prohibitions on the sale of such devices. (Roof-mounted swamp coolers are already illegal in Palmdale CA!)
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
According to this: http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=59639 it will be required to get a building permit, not optional.
If you don't like it, let people know. Right now it is about the same as starting a campaign to eat small children. There are people that believe in the US that we are going to run the world out of resources and it is everyone's responsibility to ensure that the US does not do this. This is one example of that thinking.
Yes, resources on this planet my be finite. There may be disparities between what some countries have and what others have - mostly determined by actions of their own people. For every African country that says "colonial powers did this to them", remember that the US was indeed such a colony of a European country at one time.
The point is that if people believe there is a finite pie to be divided up and that such divisions should be made equally, we are all going to be living like Bangledeshi farmers soon. There are unlimited resources "out there" if we have the courage and determination to go get them. We have to, or humanity is going to die here after living with smaller and smaller populations.
Wait until the environmentists start on the population problem. Do you know there are too many people in your city? If you are going to support the environmental movement you should take matters into your own hands. If all the believers helped it wouldn't take that long to reduce the population significantly. Get a club, knife or gun and start help fixing the planet today!
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=59639 among other sources. As it points out, newer turbines are much less prone to causing bird deaths, but even old turbines are often less fearful than people predict when they are put in. Wind turbines make *noise* and this drives birds off, unlike flat panes of glass which are a silent/invisible menace.
In many cases where raptors are absent, it is not necessarily because they are killed, but because they do not like being near the turbines and will go elsewhere. Same result as far as the rats go, of course. I don't support the exclusive use of any technology, though: the solution to pollution is dilution. If we use multiple sources of power, the specific impact of that one source may be reduced to the point where the environment can handle it. Otherwise even acres of solar panels affects albedo and thus climate. If we use wind in conjunction with other things, we provide somewhere for the raptors to go. Learning from the experience in your source (I am having trouble confirming the rat problems from other sources), we need to maybe build a buffer zone around wind farms in rat-prone areas where predator species can have a buffet on the fat ones that come from the rat-preservation zone. Importing snakes might not be a bad bet either...
This is one reason I don't bother the falcons around the farm when I am raising chickens. I take some steps to protect my birds, but I know the raptors are useful in their own right. Same with snakes. If I lose a bird now and then, it is worth the trade.
Dogma of any kind is misplaced. This is a learning experience.
WTF is a threadmill?
A type of spinning machine? Many of them do come with wall-sockets (my wife's is treadle-powered), but I don't know how you power a TV off of that. Maybe the GP is just pulling the wool over our eyes?
California is going to mandate that all new homes have a thermostat with a ZigBee radio so that it can talk to the new meters that will be installed as part of the Advanced Metering Infrastructure (AMI) program that is now underway. All three major utilities in California (PG&E, SDG&E, and SCE) expect to have all their meters replaced with new "smart" meters by 2012. This will include both residential and commercial customers.
There will NOT be any mandatory thermostat adjustments. Enrollment in the program will be optional. If you do enroll, during critical power shortages, your thermostat will be set a few degrees higher. In exchange, you receive a better rate for ALL your power. Even after your thermostat has been adjusted, you will be able to override the settings, but you will pay a penalty for doing so, since you signed up the for the program.
All the people complaining that the utility should just build more infrastructure do not understand the issues regarding power demand. In California, there are perhaps 10 days a year where we are critically short on power. At those times the power companies are buying every bit of power they can, even though they may be paying TEN TIMES the normal price. However, if enough power is not available, they have to start rolling blackouts to keep the grid intact. Doesn't it make more sense to reduce the consumption on those peak days? Of course, there is another choice. Start charging people a higher price when it costs the utility more to generate or purchase electricity. You will see this soon. Power will cost more during the day (at least in areas where air conditioning is the major load) and a lot less at night. During power shortages, pwoer might cost many times the regular price. This would reflect the true cost of the power.
As for who is a fault with the current situation, it has been almost impossible to build any new transmission lines or power plants for quite some time. SDG&E just recently tried to start building a "peaker" plant that only will run during power shortages - the same 10 or so days I mentioned before. The plant will emit about the same annual pollution as 15 cars. It is powered by natural gas. Everyone in the area where they are building are protesting (it is fairly close to a school). The same people who sit outside the school idling their SUVs for 20 minutes every day waiting for their kids are protesting a natural gas power plant that will help prevent blackouts. Give me a break!
I fail to see how anyone could be against conserving power during shortages. I also am disappointed that so many people can be so uninformed, yet still feel qualified to comment.
Except in the case of illness, the poor (and much of the not poor) can just deal with some heat (and yes, I've been there). We have suddenly made something which people did without for millennia into a survival need. It is not (in almost all cases). Many cases of heat exhaustion are caused by people moving from air conditioning set too low to high temperatures outside-- they cannot adapt to a 40+ degree change that quickly. At a re-enactment event at Fort Knox, with blistering heat, we had less people falling over on the field (in armor) than we did un-armored people going from the air-conditioned exhibit hall to the outside. Air-conditioning perpetuates the problem as much as it helps.
Computers run at 160F plus, a room getting to 120F won't faze them. You'll be unhappy about other things before your computer gets sad, well, unless you built it wrong. Any computer you buy has been tested in a 140F hot room before sale, of course one you built yourself may be different.
As to your baby, rashes and sores like that are due to friction from humidity, not from heat. Computers don't care about humidity much either.
I live in California without A/C. No problems. I grew up in Michigan (similar to Minnesota, very humid and at times very hot) without A/C. I know humans aren't the best adapted to harsh environments, but Minnesota was populated by families with babies for decades before A/C.
http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
Have gnu, will travel.
Then, if you can store your energy, then TAKE YOUR HOUSE OFF THE GRID AND TELL PGE "scrrrrew you!!".
But, you'll probably be told you'll have to pay for service even IF your meter to/from PG&E never budges. Then, you may need a lawyer, then the state may tell you EVERYBODY has to pay, unless they are their own utility. Even THEN, there'll be a myriad of rules and regulations so hamstringing as to COST you anyway. Maybe make you give up.
Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
Um, don't they realize that the thermostat is just low voltage control for the air conditioning? What's to stop someone from installing a simple jumper wire across R and Y terminals inside the air handler? You don't need a thermostat at all, in fact. What about all those fancy wine cellars that have refrigeration units. Those compressors are controlled by low pressure switches, and have no stats at all. Of course, only the rich people have those, and as far as I know measures like there are only supposed to affect us plebes.
Here in Toronto, the utility installs a small relay inside your condensing unit to take out the compressor. It has nothing at all to do with your thermostat.
Is that a real poncho? I mean, is that a Mexican poncho or is that a Sears poncho?
How do they plan on controlling every space heater and portable A.C. unit?
My garage office space is totally uncoupled from my home's thermostat.
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
inflation rate 1914-2004 chart
(Nixon, as you recall, has inflation so bad that the technique of dealing with it he came up with was to install wage and price controls).
In any case, to the extent that a presidential administration has an effect on the inflation rate, much of it is due to controlling, or not controlling, the deficit, and since the effect of debt continues to show up as interest payments years later, it's not clear that Carter's fiscal conservatism shouldn't be credited with the lower inflation in the early 80s.
http://www.geoffreylandis.com
If you want pot to be legal in California, here's your chance:
From Jack Herer's site:
"Jack Herer's Signature Collection
Its time to collect signatures for the Cannabis Hemp and Health Initiative 2008. The signature gathering has begun and ends around April 15, 2008. We would like to collect all of the signatures in 2-1/2 months."
"This initiative will legalize Cannabis Hemp for (a) industrial products, (b) medicinal preparations, (c) nutritional products, (d) religious and spiritual products, and (e) recreational and euphoric use and products.
It will also include amnesty, immediate release from prison, jail, parole, and probation, and clearing, expungement, and deletion of all criminal records for all persons currently charged with, or convicted of any non-violent cannabis hemp marijuana offense.
Were going to need 434,000 good signatures from registered California voters. This means that well need 700,000 to 750,000 signatures all together. The money you spend on our products will go to pay for printing petitions and renting offices around California. Well need lots of trained volunteers to help collect signatures. We have a training video that we used in the 1994 and 1996 initiatives in California. Here are the links for it:
Part One
Part Two
Part Three
Part Four"
Spread the word!
More:
http://www.erowid.org/culture/characters/herer_jack/herer_jack.shtml
Of course, they will need to outlaw window mounted AC to make this workable. Bake the peasants in Bakersfield!
The folks sitting in the ocean breezes will wonder what all the fuss is about and can continue to devote their activist time to blocking nuclear power.
Not true at all. If you want your computer to be able to operate in 120F degrees ambient for any length of time, you need absolutely massive fans to cycle huge amounts of air through the case. Far different than existing PC designs.
CPUs may be able to take 160F degrees without flinching, but the fans and heatsinks supporting them simply aren't designed to keep the CPU cool in such high ambient temperatures.
Unless you're lucky enough to have a fan pointed directly at your DDR RAM, you can expect that to overheat first, locking up your computer in no time. If you cool the RAM, expect a terribly shortened life for your hard drive, unless it is also directly, actively cooled. Next up is probably the northbridge (non-AMD64 systems), as they all too often run near their limits even with cool ambient temperatures, and often don't have a fan. Expect a short lifetime for your PSU as well, as they are bearing 200F+ temperatures, as they have to deal with the ambient heat + heat from nearby components + heat it generates as well.
You can certainly design a computer to handle such temperatures, as the components can handle such heat, but nobody does, and you wouldn't want to be within earshot while it is operating.
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
Now I can figure out the RF so that I can set my neighbors heat to say 100 degrees, just like you can with those RF controlled hotel thermostats.
Where I used to live, the local co-op wanted to shave the peaks off of their load to avoid having to buy expensive spot power. Their solution was to offer a discount to customers willing to allow them to install a remote controlled switch on their A/C units. A sufficient number of people happily accepted their offer and the peak load problem was solved.
If Ca. wants a deregulated industry, it should let the industry come up with appropriate financial incentives. Otherwise, it should re-regulate it end to end and be done with it.
"The fact that similar radio-controlled technologies have been used on a voluntary basis in irrigation systems on farm fields and golf courses and in limited programs for buildings on Long Island is seldom mentioned in Internet postings..."
Duh. The issue here is that the proposal is not based on ANY "voluntary basis" and that it involves private residences instead of "farm fields and golf courses." That's why it hasn't been mentioned. It's not comparable.
Any computer you buy has been tested in a 140F hot room before sale, of course one you built yourself may be different.
Got any proof of that? Quite a few laptops I've had to deal with don't take too nicely to temperatures above 100F.
That has to be the most asinine idea (for any number of reasons) I've ever heard of. Time to make sure the grid firewall (hmmm, business opportunity?) is engaged.
I just read this Business Week article that talks about a test program they did in Washington, where a change in line frequency was used to trigger appliances and air conditioners to shut off. Personally, I'd never voluntarily participate in a 3rd party controlling my electric usage, and if it were forced on me I'd disable their ability to do so. If my house is too hot then I should be able to cool it down, or if I need clean clothes then I'm going to do what must be done, not be late getting to work or any other appointment because someone else decided to shut my dryer off.
We already have this in Modesto Irrigation District for at least 4 years. It's optional at this point, but I've signed up for it every place I've lived. You get a $5/month credit during the 5 peak months for letting them install this box on your AC unit. Basically, during peak times they can tell your AC to not run for up to 15 minutes per hour. So it's not like you're without AC. For 45 minutes it's on, for 15 off, and so on, and only during peak times. With a regular fan (the kind on a stand that moves left to right, right to left, repeat) pushing the air around you don't even notice it.
Instead of turning off people's air conditioning, why not install a meter in people's home that displays the current cost of electricity.
As demand increases and supply falls, the electricity price becomes more expensive.
That way, people are responsible for deciding if they want air conditioning at 18 degrees Celsius or 24 degrees Celsius or at all.
Old news. Southern California Edison has been offering the ability to do this for awhile by adding an external device on the outside compressor... http://www.sce.com/RebatesandSavings/Residential/_Heating+and+Cooling/SummerDiscountPlan/Details/default.htm
As others have noted, this is also done by other utility companies throughout the U.S. too. For instance, Austin Energy (in Texas) also offers a radio controlled thermostat program: http://www.austinenergy.com/Energy%20Efficiency/Programs/Power%20Partner/index.htm
Don't waste those cycles! Put them to use! http://www.distributed.net/
This will most likely be in the "Mandatory Measures" section of a Title 24 report. Anything on that list MUST be done and be signed off on by the Building Inspector. Title 24 applies to all new construction as well as additions or remodeling that extend the conditioned envelope by a certain square footage or a certain percentage, whichever is lower (100 sq ft or 10% I think).
I don't know If I trust PG&E to do it that way - They will probably just declare a power emergency and turn off everyone's AC for an hour or two.
Also, This new thing will not be voluntary, If you build new or remodel much you have to install this thermostat too. No incentives, no choice. Just do it.
I wonder if that means the power company can make "surprise inspections" to see if your thermostat is the "controlled" kind and that you have not tampered with it.
FPL pays us to have shut-offs attached to our A/C units and pool pump. They pay us every month for the privilege, and in return they are allowed to turn off the A/C for fifteen minutes at a time, up to an hour a day. For a larger rebate, we could allow them to turn them off for the whole four hours at once. The system is controlled by signals through the power line.
Rick DeBay
Sounds like a great excuse to control people's lives on the back of a poor reason. State imposed restrictions are just one person forcing his opinions on someone else. Limited resources in this case are only limited because people don't work to make more available.
Basically, if a million people all draw the power they think they need to live the life that's appropriate to them, enough of them will vastly overestimate how much power they need that the consequence will be that some people will not be able to get power they genuinely DO need.
That is what planning and metering are for. Pay for what you take, and build for what you need. It isn't hard to do. there isn't any natural upper limit on the size or quantity of power plants.
Great,another california energy crunch.
... Dick Cheney's friends intentionally reducing california's generating capacity to jack up the price to improve their profits.
They still haven't paid for the electricity from British Columbia, Canada that they freely chose to buy on the open markets a few years ago during the rolling brown-outs.
California claimed BC somehow took advantage of them and simply won't pay for the choice they freely made, when really the problem was a typical internal american problem
You people in california better let the utilities adjust your thermostats beyond your control
You won't be stealing your power from us this time.
George Bush + Linux = "I will not let information get in the way of the fight against Windows"
Not everyone likes the same temperature. I like 70 degrees. My wife likes 75 degrees. I am quite sure that your neighbor might like a different adjustment. I may not like the temperature that he does. I won't adjust my house temp to save someone else energy. Sorry. Not gonna happen. If people are worried about energy costs, then they may want to think about lobbying for a thermal, nuclear plant. Both are cheap, and cost effective. This sounds like an attempt to further move the west coast into communism. With a Nazi as governer, I am not surprised.
When government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. - Jefferson
Why not vote for politicians who help build new energy plants instead?
Saving a few percent only offsets the need for growth by six months or so. I.e. it's pointless in the long run.
Make more efficient plants, or different sources of energy, perhaps. But stop with this idiocy of living a pseudo-Spartan life.
But politics and power were never about logic anyway. It's about scaring people so they'll vote for you so you can wield power.
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
A lot of places already ask you if they can install power controls to your central air, so they can switch it off whenever they feel like it. They make no bones about it, they tell you that your house temp will go up a few degrees.
Oh, you're not stuck, you're just unable to let go of the onion rings.
You openly contradicted and criticized him again.