Ubuntu 8.04 Beta Released

markybob writes "Ubuntu Hardy 8.04 beta has been released. It features GNOME 2.22 and uses Linux kernel 2.6.24. Furthermore, it uses Firefox 3 beta 4, and PulseAudio is enabled by default. To ease the transition of Windows users, it includes Wubi, which allows users to install and uninstall Ubuntu like any other Windows application. It does not require a dedicated partition, nor does it affect the existing bootloader, yet users can experience a dual-boot setup almost identical to a full installation."

Comments

WUBI?

[scubamage]

Anyone have any information about this? I prefer having a linux environment but my work laptop *must* run windows thanks to company software. This seems like it may be a much better solution for me compared to, say, cygwin.

Re:WUBI?

[SpecTheIntro]

I think it's new enough that there isn't a lot of first-hand experience with it. The FAQ describes it in Alpha, although the download link refers to it as Beta... in any case, my suspicion is that it is likely not very stable yet. You may want to experiment with it on a home PC before putting it on your work laptop.

Re:WUBI?

[binaryspiral]

Take a look at http://wubi-installer.org/ and see for your self. Essentially it uses a large file on your windows OS as the file system. When you install it, it modifies your bootloader to give you the option of booting to that machine.

If you decide you don't like it, just reboot into Windows and uninstall it via add/remove programs.

Performance is slightly slower due to the extra hoops your *nix OS has to jump through, but you won't notice if you're running on modern hardware. I liken it to being able to boot to a VMWare image.

Re:WUBI?

[vil3nr0b]

I "must" run windows as well at work. I installed Fedora Core 8 on the company provided Dell laptop. I did the ole skool Partition Magic to create two 50 gb partitions. With Fedora Core Live CD it took care of the rest. I was also able to verify the OS picked up the drivers for the laptop before deciding to actually put it on the system. I am a linux noob, but love Fedora and the ease of the dual boot option.

Re:WUBI?

[MMC Monster]

It you are planning on installing it on a work laptop, my only advise (I have not tried this at all) is to make sure there is a documented uninstall process.

Re:WUBI?

[SpydeZ]

If you *must* run windows for company apps, then Wubi probably isn't for you. It's more of a dual-boot type thing, cept it uses a file on your windows partition as it's 'hard drive'.

You might want to try out andLinux. It's a full on linux that integrates seamlessly inside of windows.

Personally, dual-booting is kind of a drag because of the constant reboots to get into Windows to do that one Windows-only thing, so I like cygwin or andLinux over Wubi.

Re:WUBI?

[strabes]

My advice is to wait for the final release of hardy, which should be rock solid stable. It is still decently buggy at this point.

Re:WUBI?

[Anonymous Coward]

So it's like UMSDOS? A good idea though, ZipSlack was the easy way to try Linux that got me started.

Re:WUBI?

[Nimey]

You could also look at innotek's VirtualBox. It's pretty fast if you've got an Intel or AMD CPU with the virtualization instructions, and there's a GPL version that lacks a few features like letting the VM see USB drives.

Another free option is Qemu Manager, which is a free Windows frontend to the free QEMU. Not as fast as VirtualBox on a virtualization-enabled PC, but not bad if you enable the KQEMU dynamic recompiler. There's also MS's Virtual PC, but IME QEMU and VirtualBox work a little better with Linux. And lastly, of course, there's VMWare Server, although IME it's a little harder to set up.

Re:WUBI?

[JohnFluxx]

I use vmware which works great if you have 2GB of memory or so. (You can run it on a lot less, but I find 2GB is enough to mean that I don't have to worry about it running, and can just leave it always on)

Re:WUBI?

[Angry Toad]

I wish I had some mod points right now for this - I'm currently in a similar situation where I'm locked down in to Windows for 80% of everything I do and my laptop is too mission-critical to even think about messing with the partitions. VirtualBox has been a godsend, even though it seems slightly blasphemous to be virtualizing linux under Windows.

Re:WUBI?

[Anonymous Coward]

A working Linux system requires at least 3 parts:
1) a root filesystem, where the bulk of the files that comprises the system reside
2) a kernel which understands your hardware (or at least the disk hardware and filesystem format and of the root filesystem, other parts can all be loaded as modules later on)
3) a boot loader, which is executed by the BIOS, and knows where to locate and execute the kernel

In most common Linux installs, the root filesystem resides on a dedicated partition on the first hard disk, usually in the ext3 format. The kernel is often a also in this partition, but can be in a seperate /boot partition. Its location is unimportant as long as the bootloader know where to find it: you could put it on a FAT partition and use a DOS based bootloader like loadlin if you want. Nowadays the standard Linux bootloader is Grub, which understands many common Linux filesystems like ext3, jfs, reiserfs, so if you put you kernel on one if those filesystems it can boot.

Wubi makes use of the fact that the Linux kernel can mount single files as if they were disks/partitions. This is called loopback mounting a file, and many users have already used it at some point when mounting .iso files. But that file must still reside on some other partition/filesystem that has already been mounted. So what Wubi does is, it installs the normal Ubuntu root filesystem in a single file, and puts that on your NTFS formatted Windows partition, along with the kernel (which can mount NTFS partitions read-write these days thanks to ntfs-3g), and the grub4dos bootloader. Grub4dos is a modified version of Grub, which can locate the kernel on NTFS disks, and can be chainloaded from the Windows NT bootloader (meaning, the NT bootloader can boot grub4dos which in turn boots the Linux kernel). Wubi packages all this in a user-friendly Windows installer. Note that although you can add and remove Ubuntu like other Windows apps, you cannot run it alongside them. This is _not_ emulation or virtualization, it's still dual booting, with the only twist that it leaves your existing Windows partitions untouched.

To recap:

Normal Ubuntu startup
1) BIOS loads Grub
2) Grub loads the kernel from an ext3 partition (which also conains the root filesystem)
3) the kernel mounts the designated ext3 partition and uses that as the root filesystem (actually it starts off with initramfs, which is a root filesystem in memory that is swapped with the on-disk "real" root filesystem later in the boot process)

Wubi startup
1) BIOS loads the Windows bootloader NTLDR
2) when selected from the menu, NTLDR loads grub4dos
3) grub4dos loads the Linux kernel from the Windows partition
4) the kernel mounts the Windows partition, then mounts the file on that Windows partition where Ubuntu was installed in and uses that as the root filesystem

Re:WUBI?

[Anonymous Coward]

Just load up ubuntu, reinstall windows as a guest os inside of vmware-server. It's great! All of my work windows apps work seamlessly inside of their vm guest os jail cell.

Re:WUBI?

[diegocgteleline.es]

There's a small difference. UMSDOS was a (ugly, but useful) hack that allowed to use FAT files and directories as if they were UNIX-like files and directories. So even if you booted in MSDOS/win you could read the linux files. WUBI is different: It stores a whole Linux filesystem in a file. Wubi then mounts the NTFS filesystem with NTFS-3G, and the big file containing the linux filesystem is mounted with the loop device as an ext (or reiser, or whatever) filesystem.

Re:WUBI?

[Nimey]

You, sir, are ignorant. In a corporate-type environment, it's probable that his laptop is set up on Active Directory, he's got an AD account, and so on. That kind of thing needs an IT tech to set back up after he's blasted away his Windows partition, and even if the tech is cool with the idea of him doing this, he probably won't appreciate the user creating work for him and basically attempting to bypass security & other settings.

Re:WUBI?

[ta bu shi da yu]

For goodness sake, will SOMEONE mod that post up please? Best explanation of anything I've seen in a long time!

Re:WUBI?

[Anonymous Coward]

and you're assuming he isn't a domain admin?
lots of converts these days.

Re:WUBI?

[DeeQ]

The only experience I have of WUBI is a bad one. Granted the install of it went very well and worked. However since its on the same Partition as windows there will be some issues if ubuntu gets messed up.

I dont know if Im an only person this has happened to but this is my case.

I was doing updates when my PC lost power. For whatever god given reason it messed up the boot loader. So i figured okay no problem Ill just use Grub or something. However even when using grub It would no longer boot my windows partition. It was giving me errors because of the ubuntu install. Granted I was also doing this on Vista so XP might be different. But just sharing my story.

Re:WUBI?

[Anonymous Coward]

Have a look at andLinux or other coLinux distributions.

Re:WUBI?

[jslater25]

I would simply make a ghost image of your work laptop as is before installing any other OS. And dual boot between Linux and Windows. When you are required to turn in the laptop, simply reimage the laptop with your original settings, and all are none the wiser.

Re:WUBI?

[scubamage]

Hey all, thanks for the ton of responses! I should have been a bit more descriptive - I'm a tech at my company, and the network admin, so I can pretty much do as I please with my kit. However we're mandated by company policy to have lojack4laptops installed and our motherboards have a bios module that does this without our interaction - sadly the module only works in windows. I was going to dual boot but vista won't shrink the partition small enough for me to do so (for some reason it has stuff stored at the end of the partition and won't let me shrink more than like 400mb) and partition magic chokes on resizing the vista version of NTFS. Otherwise I'd have a full on install of linux on here as it is. The fact that WUBI installs inside windows seemed to be a nice option since I'd no longer have to redo my partitioning. Does it run in a virtualized mode with generic vanilla hardware like VMware? Or will it take full advantage of the machine just as if it was a normal install?

Re:WUBI?

[bhtooefr]

IIRC, this is different from UMSDOS.

UMSDOS still used the host file system to manage the individual files.

This is storing the Linux filesystem as a loopback file on the NTFS partition.

Re:WUBI?

[Anonymous Coward]

I have experience with Wubi. It's fairly nice, there is a documented uninstall procedure (select it in Add/Remove Programs and click "Uninstall"), and it worked fine on my Dad's laptop.

YMMV

Re:WUBI?

[anexkahn]

What not just use VMWARE Server....it is free, and there is already plenty of information on it. Just install VMWare server, then run Ubuntu in that....My work laptop is a Dell D630 with 2 GB of RAM and it runs ubuntu 8.04 just fine as a Virtual Machine.

Re:WUBI?

[MyDixieWrecked]

A friend of mine actually used Wubi a couple days ago- it was the first I'd heard of it.

Installation went without a hitch. It basically created a couple of disk-image type files on his C: partition and Ubuntu boots from that.

It's pretty neat because when you look at the output from the 'df' command, your drives aren't mounting from /dev, but rather /media/wubi

Re:WUBI?

[davidsyes]

At some point before Sun took over Innotek, i had seen a page with pricing information about the "commercial" version of VirtualBox. I want to get that version's info because at work we may use it.

I am comparing it to VMWare's offerings. Personally, on my own laptop I use VirtualBox because it's the godsend that liberated me from the vagaries (that I experienced) with Win4Lin and kernel dependencies, because I was on OLD W4L and had not intention of buying XP or Vista or 2K JUST to get virtualization. Now that buying a laptop steered me to vista, and since VB was free for what I am doing, it made sense to not totally resist vista.

Back to the first para.... does anyone know of a URL that has pricing? I a few weeks ago searched Innotek's site and Google and had no luck. Are they forcing us to have to correspond to get the information they previously and seemingly posted freely?

Re:WUBI?

[Anonymous Coward]

Wouldn't the reverse be more interesting... running Windows as a virtual machine inside Ubuntu? This way, you're on the superior system all the time, and only run that ugly Microshaft thing when strictly needed!

Re:WUBI?

[Oldstench]

I understand that this is not the forum for this, but this intrigued me. I would love to dual boot between Linux and Windows, but don't want to lose everything that I already have on my Windows box. Would it be possible for me to Ghost my existing Windows machine, format and create the dual-boot, and then reimage what I had to my new Windows partition? I only wonder because I don't know how well Ghost would handle the disk size changes.

Re:WUBI?

[dotancohen]

Sounds like a question from someone who doesn't backup. First, go make a copy of _all_ your important files. Yes, that means tracking down wherever Outlook decided to put your mail, filters settings, etc in whatever particular version you are using. Then make a folder with the install .exes of all the programs you use, and backup their config files (if their settings are not in the registry, in which case have fun trying to back it all up). Then go google backup windows and find out what else you need. Once you have all that info safely off your computer, proceed with whatever install option you'd like. You are backed up.

Re:WUBI?

[dotancohen]

I second VirtualBox. VMWare ran Solidworks like a dog, but Virtualbox runs it perfectly.

Re:WUBI?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm waiting for Wubi on Wails.

Re:WUBI?

[Sczi]

That will work fine, but there are ways to shoot yourself in the foot, and there is an extra step in there at you don't need. But as long as your ghost backup is good, then the worst that could happen is you might need to reapply the image and then do whatever you need to do like defrag or whatever, take another image, and then try again. And for future reference, applying a ghost image to a smaller partition than you took it from will work fine most of the time, and the times it won't work is because of something else.

But like I said you don't need to take an image and then reapply it. The more direct approach is to defrag so that you get a big contiguous block of space at the end of the drive, shrink the Windows partition (Vista can shrink the C: while windows is running, otherwise find a util), and then make a new partition at the end for whatever.

Either way, take a good ghost image first. Ghost is the greatest thing since jarred cheese.

Re:WUBI?

[ShieldW0lf]

Use VMWare. You can use tools from VMWares site to convert your existing Windows installation to a virtual machine, then install VMWare server on Ubuntu using the GUI, grab a license key for free from VMWares site, and fire up your newly created virtual machine. Then you shouldn't lose anything, and you can run them both simultaneously.

Re:WUBI?

[Anonymous Coward]

Okay, we have "Breezy Badger" and "Dapper Drake". So, why wasn't this one "Hardy Hard-On?" Bah-Bum-Ching! Thank you, and remember to tip your waitress.

Re:WUBI?

[0xABADC0DA]

What would make this even more awesome if it came with a windows qemu already set up to run your ubuntu from the virtual disk file with all your installed programs and config while inside Windows. So when you have to dual boot back into windows you can still access your files (although slowly).

It might need to boot into a special image that just mounts from the disk file to keep ubuntu from detecting new hardware and stuff like that. But I think it should be pretty easy to do really.

Re:WUBI?

[Locutus]

and one way to do this would be to boot Ubuntu from the CD and then do something along these lines:
1) install the ntfsprogs( sudo apt-get install ntpfprogs )
2) mount a remote filesystem to /mnt ( use samba either smbmount or smbfs in /etc/fstab )
3) backup/image your partition to the remote filesystem using something like this:
    ( sudo ntfsclone --save-image --output /mnt/ntfsBackup.img /dev/hda1 )

restore doing mostly the same except restore with:
sudo ntfsclone --restore-image --overwrite /dev/hda1 /mnt/ntfsBackup.img

I've used the above ntfsclone commands and they worked for me. I've since blown away that partition since VMware converter sucked that into a VM for a nicely caged Windows environment.

LoB

Re:WUBI?

[CandyMan]

For your needs I would rather recommend andLinux, which is a handy installer for coLinux+Ubuntu.

coLinux installs the whole Linux kernel as a ring 0 driver in windows, and installs the whole linux filesystem as a windows file. You then run your normal Linux OS applications through a native Windows headless X server. It works just great, with performance similar to that of User Mode Linux.

Wubi installs a loopback image of Ubuntu that can be dual-booted into in parallell with Windows. That means you can't have your windows apps runnign at the same time as your windows apps.

Others have recommended VMWare, but for the kind of usage where you don't have to mess around with different guest OS images, but just install once and run, I favour coLinux's approach. andLinux is just a nifty way to get it installed.

I used coLinux for a while three years ago, and it was great, but difficult to get running (particularly the networking). andLinux just makes it work.

Re:WUBI?

[BlackCreek]

My advice is to wait for the final release of hardy, which should be rock solid stable. It is still decently buggy at this point. I second that. There are loads of broken things in Hardy right now.

I have been upgrading to the Ubuntu "beta" release some 2 months before the official release for some 2 years now. Hardy is the one that gave me the most trouble so far. Never had to fill so many bug reports.

1. They made a truly royal mess with scim (sorry you can't uninstall).
2. My bluetooth headset doesn't work anymore.
3. They are using a new wireless driver (for intel) that is giving me loads of trouble.
4. The time it takes for desktop logout on KDE has increased.
5. Amarok sometimes fails to start.
6. Sometimes I simply lose the keyboard (must then logout with the mouse).

Re:WUBI?

[YaroMan86]

Reformatting for a dual boot is not needed. Mostly you only really need two things

1. A good backup
2. A freshly defragged hard disk.

The installer can make its own partition for Ubuntu (Or it can take the whole disk.) so I wouldn't fuss with the ultimately broken disk partitioner Vista uses, or the fully crippled one XP uses. Once you have those two prerequisites, just make sure you have ~20 GiB. of free hard disk space so that Ubuntu can have some stretching room. (Minimum required is 4, I believe.) After that, just burn yourself a LiveCD, pop it in, restart your computer and make sure it boots from the CD-ROM drive.

After that, just run the installer. (The link is right on the desktop.) When it reaches the partition editor, I suggest having it use the largest empty space on the disk. (Which should be the fresh new partition, unallocated.)

Of course, if you're using a work laptop, I'd use virtualization, not Wubi. Operating systems always operate better when they believe they are in charge of their machines. Virtualization is best, because it doesn't have to act like a guest operating system like it would be in the case of Cygwin or MinGW or Wubi. (Virtualized OSes are still guests with little power over the host OS, but they *are* masters of the domain they are in, the virtual machine, and thus get better performance, reliability, and power out of the deal. That and it's very easy to remove.)

Re:WUBI?

[YaroMan86]

That is what I do. I went from pure Windows to dual booting with Linux having the smaller partition, to dual booting with equal resources, to Linux having greater resources, and then ultimately broomed Windows altogether and made my machine all Linux. I have XP in a virtual machine, but it rarely ever comes out to play. And usually whenever I decide to get more disk space, that Windows VM is the first thing to go. (I can easily get 3-4 GiB out of that.)

I bet Steve Ballmer would throw a fit to hear stories like this. "Joe Consumer decides he is pissed off by Windows, wipes it off completely and installs Linux and never looks back. And now suddenly he's using Google and traded his Zune for an iPod." Take that, Ballmer.

Re:WUBI?

[shellbeach]

Anyone have any information about this? I prefer having a linux environment but my work laptop *must* run windows thanks to company software. This seems like it may be a much better solution for me compared to, say, cygwin. I have the same problem, but I get around it on my linux laptop by running XP within VirtualBox (which is free and doesn't need for a license key like VMWare). You can pause the virtual machine when you're not using it, have the desktop resize with the virtual machine window, and there's even stuff like bi-directional clipboard support. Setting up shared directories between the host OS and the virtual OS is also extremely easy. I remember trying to setup VMWare back in 2000, and the distance virtual machines have come since then is just amazing. If you haven't tried it for a while, it's really worth giving them another go.

But the really great thing is that I can still do most of my work under linux, and that stuff doesn't get lost when Windows decides to crash ... :)

As for WUBI, btw, it seems like it creates a dual-boot setup for windows, but one that uses a file within the windows disk as the basis for its file system. So it's not like having linux running within Windows, it's just like booting into linux but without having to do a repartition of your drive.

Re:WUBI?

[msromike]

Or do it the other way around. A Linux guest runs much faster on a Windows host than a Windows guest on a Linux Host.

I did some benchmarks on an XP guest and it ran faster on a Windows host then on a Linux host as well.

Wubi

[damona]

Wubi? Whoopee! How does that work? Anybody has had any experience? It sounds quite incongruous with the whole idea of "dual-boot" or having two OSes for that matter.

Re:Wubi

[schklerg]

Looks like you just run setup from Windows and end up with a dual-boot system. http://wubi-installer.org/faq.php. I'll be sticking with VMWare.

Bah

[Garrick68]

I am waiting for the Hungry Hippo version of Ubuntu...

Re:Bah

[R2.0]

Can't wait for the code name for the 24th release (yes, you can count on your fingers if you need to.)

Re:Bah

[BrentH]

It appears Hateful Hillary is postponed in favor of Ostentatious Obama. What happened to Mediocre McCain, I don't know.

Re:Bah

[tanguyr]

http://www.sandiegozoo.org/animalbytes/got_questions_quxz.html

Re:Bah

[Anonymous Coward]

I hope that Hungry Hippo can hold me over until the release of Inflamed Ibex.

Re:Bah

[jo42]

Nah, The "Gracious Goatse" version will knock your eyes out.

Re:Bah

[kat_skan]

Why, he's keeping quiet and letting the Discourteous Donkeys do his work for him, of course.

Re:Bah

[proselyte_heretic]

I am waiting for the Punctual Penguin version of Ubuntu, the one true year of the linux desktop

Re:Bah

[craiglarry]

As in Humbug? I'd like to know how you impliment ubuntu 8.04 download from Hippo. I've downloaded twice and can't get it to burn. Do you have some suggestions?

wubi ?

[bibel]

To ease the transition of Windows users, it includes Wubi, which allows users to install and uninstall Ubuntu like any other Windows application. That's just great ... Ubuntu like any other Windows application. I am losing faith in humanity

Re:wubi ?

[Anonymous Coward]

The concept of running linux on a loopback file system is older than dirt (zipslack used a loopback swapfile and Basic Linux ran in a loopback on a dos or fat32 partition), but setting it up and installing it on an NTFS partition with wubi is truly idiot proof. This, in the end, absolutely will help Linux.

I tried Gnome a very, very long time ago and didn't like it, but I decided to stop "fighting the power" and gave plain old Ubunutu 7.04 a try (instead of Slackware or Kubuntu or DSL or Gentoo or Fedora or ...) and I found that it is more polished than Kubuntu. Honestly, it's the most sesnible Linux distro I have used since I started using GNU/Linux in 1998.

It may seem odd to install Linux as Windows application on the Windows partition, but truly it's a sensible concept now that NTFS write support is reliable. In all my years using NT the only time I have lost a partition was when I accidently deleted it, becuase it was 3am (or so) and I was far too sleepy for computing (got the files back with R-Studio). Patition table hacking and bugging is absolutely not OS specific, so apart from losing a small amount of speed by using the loopback file system for Linux installing Ubuntu using Wubi just makes sense.

Since Vista SP1 was released the other day, I decided to format my laptop and put home basic back on to see if it's any better (and with the latest AMD video drivers, it is actually able to play WoW now...). For the sake of ease, I also did a wubi install of Ubuntu 7.04 and it seems to work just the same as it did when installed on its own partition. However, partitioning was one less thing to muck around with, which was nice even for an old time Linux user.

Re:wubi ?

[jellomizer]

Why? It seems like a good thing to me, just as long as there is an option to install it the old fasion way, if you don't have Windows. But the problem with Linux adoption is the fear of replacing Windows with Linux is a one for all problem even if you do a parition it is getting complex because there is a chance that you may damage your primary OS. This is a safer way to experience Linux. New if you fear that Windows would lure people away from using Linux because of all its great features and interface, then I would sugest going and trying to make it better. Then trying to bring down windows, on some quazy political rant.

Re:wubi ?

[HermMunster]

WUBI won't interfere with your windows partition. You can get rid of it by simply deleting your c:\wubi folder or by going into your add/remove programs and uninstalling it. You can also run the installer provided by WUBI. If you choose to just delete the folder you will still have to contend with the boot menu item. You can delete that by modifying the c:\boot.ini file.

WUBI is an optional way to install Linux. The 8.04 ISO image is designed to be booted and run as a live CD where you choose the install icon off the gnome desktop. Just like the old way.

The WUBI way, the reason for the wubi.exe in the root of the CD, is so you can put it into your CD/DVD drive and have it autoplay or just launch it. That way you don't have to search for it to test the installer.

I have WUBI installs on multiple machines. It runs just fine. I have performed various upgrades to it over time without issue. It is running as its own OS and not as some emulation or virtual machine. It runs very well and it can take advantage of your full Windows partition. In fact, when you get WUBI successfully installed it will mount your Windows paritition with NTFS-3G, showing it as the HOST drive. You can read/write to it just like you would any NTFS partition under Windows.

I have Linux running on multiple laptops thanks to WUBI. I could have done a dedicated partition but I liked the idea of working with it in this fashion to help the developers. I also have many computers that run Linux dedicated and a few machines that run Windows dedicated.

My only word of advice to perspective WUBI users is to give the WUBI install size the largest you can so you don't run out of room. The reason is you'll get very addicted to Linux and Ubuntu and want to try more things out and it doesn't pay to not have enough room, so choosing a small amount of space to test with is not sufficient.

Linux is used world wide and there are estimates of 50 million users world-wide. Whole governments are using it on the desktop. Linux performs well and is very stable and secure. It does 99% of what 90% of us want to do with it. There are even retail games that have Linux clients. Linux has more in-kernel support for drivers than any other kernel in OS history.

I don't know about the weaknesses of things like wireless support under 8.04. I do know they must be improved to capture more of the market. Hopefully that has happened. I also don't know the state of sound for laptops, as it has been a rather weak point for Ubuntu these past couple years, especially on the HP platform where HPs most commonly sold models didn't have adequate sound support (or it was too buggy and too confusing to resolve).

I will say that there has been a down hill slide in the #ubuntu IRC as the participants are far to quick to spam the guides without reading the actual appeals for help.

Other than that, I think some of the attempts they made with the graphical auto adjustment have failed miserably and I don't expect that they have resolved the issue this time around either. I would like to see this fool proof. Unfortunately, also there are many other issues that I think won't get the resolutions they need because there are some issues with someone setting the priorities. For instance, laptop wireless and sound are important, and so is mounting of secondary and other volumes. Too much manual work has to be done just to add a second, third, forth, HDD. Adding those and plugging in USB and other removable media can result in some extremely unexpected results. Even though this has been reported no effort is being made to resolve them, or so it seems. Further, updates to the OS via the online updates can completely wipe out a custom /boot/grub/menu.conf customization. This is pretty bad and it is a serious bug, yet there seems to be no attention going to that either.

Re:wubi ?

[Anonymous Coward]

At least you could be glad nobody wrote a book about operating Linux across the extra bloat that is Vista and called it Wubi on Whales.

Re:wubi ?

[Chandon Seldon]

I do know they must be improved to capture more of the market.

My guess is that the number of people who try a Linux distro and give up over one piece of easily-replaceable unsupported hardware is pretty small.

Most people buy a computer knowing what OS it will run. Any significant market share increase for Linux is going to come in the form of people buying Linux boxes (i.e. from Dell or System76). Hell, people randomly installing Linux on their Windows box doesn't even *count* as "market share", because it's not a "sale".

Re:wubi ?

[jellomizer]

I would think it is actually a bit larger then you expect. Why would you use buy hardware to support an OS if you don't know if you want to keep it or not. But if the hardware replacement costs like $150 then that cuts in the the Free Linux concept because you are paying extra for hardware to get it run. It is funny to watch some Linux Zealots put hundreds of extra of dollars in hardware to get their Free OS to run with all the support of a Windows box.

Still free?

[nurb432]

I saw on the Kubuntu pages the other day they are forking into 2 versions, one free ( 'with limited functionality') and a commercial version with 8.04. Is the parent Ubuntu heading that way too? If so, what does it mean long term for KDE support in general for them? ( and if so, what ever happened to their promise to always be free? )

And no, I'm not wanting to start some flame ware on the merits of either choice or licensing. Personally i use FreeBSD and will never have these issues or have to wonder about the future, but i often give out Kubuntu CD's to non techies to get their feet wet in the 'free world' and show them they really do have a choice.

Re:Still free?

[Computershack]

I saw on the Kubuntu pages the other day they are forking into 2 versions, one free ( 'with limited functionality') and a commercial version with 8.04. Is the parent Ubuntu heading that way too? It was certainly how Mandrake and Redhat went. Sucker people in for a couple of years with free versions then release payware ones with all the stuff you want on whilst releasing stripped out crippleware free versions.

Re:Still free?

[Anonymous Coward]

Still free, but one version is not supported. Because of the current transition to KDE 4, the KDE 3.5 Kubuntu is the officially supported distro, while the KDE 4 distro is community maintained.

Re:Still free?

[NDPTAL85]

During the time that RH and Mandrake didn't do this, weren't THEY suckers too for thinking you could run a business without charging for ... well anything?

Re:Still free?

[Anonymous Coward]

Seeing as how they are parts of the same project, this seems a little odd to me. Do you have a link?

Re:Still free?

[JustinOpinion]

I saw on the Kubuntu pages the other day they are forking into 2 versions, one free ( 'with limited functionality') and a commercial version Can you provide a link? Seriously, I haven't heard anything of the sort, and can't find any corroboration on the Kubuntu site.

Perhaps you're referring to the fact that although Ubuntu 8.04 will be considered "Long-Term Support" (LTS), the corresponding Kubuntu 8.04 will not be LTS (it will still be supported, just not for as long). The reason for this decision being that KDE 4.0 is still "too fresh" for Canonical to guarantee that it will be stable-enough (and unchanging-enough) to warrant the LTS label. However Kubuntu will still be available, will still receive consistent patches and updates, and will still be Free and free.

Or perhaps you're referring to the effort to get Linspire's "Click 'n' Run" to work on Ubuntu, which would allow users to install commercial/proprietary software from repositories?

In any case, I think you're mis-remembering what you've read. As far as I know, Kubuntu and Ubuntu will remain Free and free.

Re:Still free?

[cerelib]

Kubuntu

            Rock solid KDE 3

            Commercial support provided by [WWW] Canonical for a term of 18 months

            Release available through ShipIt for everybody as well as downloading

Kubuntu KDE 4 Remix

            Cutting edge KDE 4.0

            Support provided by the Kubuntu community via [WWW] Ubuntu Forums, [WWW] Kubuntu Forums, IRC, and the [WWW] Kubuntu Users Mailing List.

            Release available through CDs for groups who need it (ie. LoCo teams, conference teams, etc.) as well as downloading

As I understand it, there will be 2 versions Kubuntu 8.04 and Kubuntu KDE 4 Remix 8.04. The vanilla version has the standard support lifetime with updates and you can purchase support from Canonical, basically the way it has always been. The Remix version includes KDE 4 and is a bit less stable. Therefore, the Remix version does not offer official support and you need to go to the forums. I am not sure what the security or bug update procedure is, that is, whether or not packages found only in Remix will receive security and bug updates. So the "commercially" supported version is the same Kubuntu as usual, but Remix is for all of those people screaming about KDE 4.

Re:Still free?

[MMC Monster]

Any link for that?

I did here that there would be two versions of KDE shipping, but I don't see how they can charge for Kubuntu while keeping Ubuntu free, since they basically run the same software and can use the same repositories.

Re:Still free?

[Rhapsody Scarlet]

I think you're confused. Canonical splitting any of their official distros into a limited free version and a fully-functional paid version would violate their own promise that Ubuntu will always be free of charge. Even if they wiggled out of that on a technicality, Ubuntu lives purely on the strength of its community. Canonical know that and would be insane to risk losing them through such a move.

The actual situation is that Kubuntu will be splitting into two versions, both of them free in all senses of the word, for the 8.04 release. One (using KDE 3.5.9) will be officially supported for 18 months (it won't be a Long Term Support release, since KDE 3 likely won't be supported in three years, though it will still support upgrading directly from 6.06) while the other (using KDE 4.0.2) will be community supported. This is probably because (like me) they think that KDE 4 really isn't ready yet as it hasn't had much time to mature and many of the Extragear application (some of which come with Kubuntu) haven't been updated yet, the most notable for me being Amarok.

My understanding is that Kubuntu will only do this split release system for the 8.04 release, with the 8.10 release likely to use KDE 4.0.x officially.

Re:Still free?

[nurb432]

Charging for support/consulting is something that money can be made on. You don't have to cripple your product in the process.

Re:Still free?

[cbart387]

Please explain your redhat comment please.

1. There's Fedora (which Redhat supports) which has the bleeding edge stuff that other distributions get the benefit of. PulseAudio is enabled in Hardy Heron which Fedora 8 currently has it. BTW Fedora 9 is being released around the same time as Hardy Heron
2. There's CentOS which quoting them "... is an Enterprise-class Linux Distribution derived from sources freely provided to the public by a prominent North American Enterprise Linux vendor. ". That Linux vendor is redhat.

What you're paying for Redhat is the support which makes sense for business to have a safety net. There's nothing different software-wise (as far as I know) except that you have someone to call when some UH-OH happens.

Re:Still free?

[nurb432]

That promise was my point exactly, so i do hope i just misunderstood the wording in their news blurb and nothing really has changed. On the risk of losing their base due to dumb stunts: RH went thru the same thing, so it IS possible.

Re:Still free?

[Dragonslicer]

I am not sure what the security or bug update procedure is, that is, whether or not packages found only in Remix will receive security and bug updates. So the "commercially" supported version is the same Kubuntu as usual, but Remix is for all of those people screaming about KDE 4. The KDE4 version will use the same repositories, so there won't be any packages found in only one version. KDE4 will be in the standard repositories (not sure if it'll be in main or universe), so you can install it from the KDE3 version of 8.04. The only difference between the two versions is which version of KDE is installed initially.

Re:Still free?

[tolan-b]

RHEL is just a more conservative package set than Fedora, there's not much difference in functionality, and you can always just use CentOS anyway.

Personally I use Ubuntu but I'm sick of all the regressions so I'm off to Debian.

Re:Still free?

[jZnat]

Where does it say this on their site? I only see two different versions: the KDE 3.5 version (which is commercially supported just like all previous releases) and the KDE 4.0 version (which is a community-supported version; like a spin-off version). You may have confused this with them charging for Ubuntu/Kubuntu; however, this is how it has always been.

Re:Still free?

[gambolt]

I assume the limited functionality = KDE4 and the one for sane people who want to do stuff other than sit around looking at their desktops is 3.5.9.

Re:Still free?

[HermMunster]

KDE 4.0 has some fundamental problems. They tried to somewhat mimic the Vista start menu and essentially failed. They were trying to shoot the prairie dog and killed the horse by mistake. IMHO they created an ugly weak and problematic menu.

Other things are that KDE 4.0 was released early so that developers could work on it to help resolve issues and create new features. In the end, as far as end users are concerned tho, if they chose to use it as an early adopter they will have to put up with some extremely messy looking features.

I've looked at it and after some time dropped it. It was messy as hell and had some real organizational issues. Even the icons on the desktop are kludgy. They can easily get disorganized and spread around thus creating a messy desktop. They are extremely buggy and the desktop itself can be inadvertently moved off center of the screen with no hopes of moving it back, unless you restart KDM.

Conceptually, it is a good first start, but I'd say it is about a year out before it becomes anything really useful to the average person. This makes it an obvious choice for limited support.

KDE needs serious work, but it is the future of their desktop. It is a good first try, though buggy as all hell.

Re:Still free?

[Deliveranc3]

No one wants to support windows.

Re:Still free?

[NDPTAL85]

Thats what people say, its not what a lot of people can actually do. First movers like Red Hat and Suse have managed to carve out a niche but even they have found it necessary to create artificial tiers in their product lines.

You see this is the trouble a company runs into when their main product is FREE.

Sweet Stuff

[Anonymous Coward]

Just installed the amd64 version on my quad core box. I am really liking the goodies -

Startup is quicker than previous version on the same hardware. Filesystems are now mounted with 'realtime' flag out-of-box - yay for even more speed!
I was able to install it inside of Windows (Vista x64) without any performance loss using the Wubi installer - Ubuntu entry appeared in Windows boot loader and I did not had to partition my NTFS formatted disks - you can try and see how it works without losing data or even disk space when you am done trying it. Cool.

Firefox 3 - my favorite browser is bundled and integrated - can't ask for more!

Got to try KVM /virtio - KVM is something that never worked well for me.

Re:Sweet Stuff

[Nimey]

'realtime' No. That's "relatime". See here for an explanation.

Re:Sweet Stuff

[Anonymous Coward]

What gcc did they build libc with? I'm a Lisp programmer -- will Ubuntu 8.04 run SBCL at all?

+1 Informative, indeed!

[Gazzonyx]

I am waiting for the Hungry Hippo version of Ubuntu... I believe that's going to be after the "Fat Ferret" release, IIRC.

Re:+1 Informative, indeed!

[pandrijeczko]

Anyone up for "Portly Pelican", "Blubbery Bison" or "Wobble-bottom Weasel"?

Re:+1 Informative, indeed!

[Garrick68]

And then there is the porno version - Biggus Dickus... wait.. umm no..

Re:+1 Informative, indeed!

[Anonymous Coward]

The release candidate will be codenamed Hairy Hardon.

Re:+1 Informative, indeed!

[Anonymous Coward]

Watch out for the companion release, Incontinentia Buttocks. Could be messy.

Re:+1 Informative, indeed!

[Nimey]

Biggus Dickus is one of the highest-wanking men in all of Wome.

Slow....

[vandit2k6]

What is this a slow news day or something. I saw this at least 3 hours ago.

Re:Slow....

[ta bu shi da yu]

It must be... you posted a comment that it's a slow news day on the article that you believe proves it's a slow news day. If there was something else interesting/important going on, you would have commented on that article and not this one.

No limited functionality. Still free.

[Svenne]

'with limited functionality'

Where did you read that? If you look at the official page https://wiki.kubuntu.org/HardyHeron/Beta/Kubuntu you'll see that the difference is the commercial support available. Since KDE 4 is not intended to be used by the general public just yet, there will be one version of Kubuntu 8.04 with KDE 3.5 that is supported, and one with 4.0 that isn't.

Re:No limited functionality. Still free.

[nurb432]

"Kubuntu-KDE4 Hardy Alpha is here. There will be two editions of Kubuntu with the 8.04 release, a commercially supported KDE 3 edition and a community supported KDE 4 edition. We recommend the KDE 4 edition to those who want to try this exciting new desktop version and can put up with some missing features."

( https://wiki.kubuntu.org/HardyHeron/Alpha5/KubuntuKDE4 )

I fully admit might be misunderstanding what they meant by that comment, but it looks like a lesser featured free version and a full featured commercial version.

I've not seen the same statement for Ubuntu, which is what prompted my question. And i hope i did misunderstand their future direction.

Re:No limited functionality. Still free.

[blueg3]

My reading of that is that the KDE 4 version is new and in development, so a) not all features in the KDE 3 version are necessarily present or working yet b) they're not offering commercial support for it yet.

Re:No limited functionality. Still free.

[Svenne]

I still don't see how you get to that conclusion. The difference between them is the availability of commercial support for the KDE 3 edition, while there is no support (or, community support only) for the KDE 4 edition.

Both of them will still be free. I think it's quite clear.

Re:No limited functionality. Still free.

[richlv]

i would expect a response from somebody from ubuntu here, but my guess - they are referring to features missing in kde4 compared to kde 3 :)
at least i hope it's that way.

Re:No limited functionality. Still free.

[MrFlannel]

BOTH versions will be supported.

However, neither will be an LTS, but they will support upgrading from 6.06 (Dapper).

LTS is the 3 year desktop support bit. Instead, Kubuntu 8.04 will be supported for 18 months, just like all non-LTS releases.

Re:No limited functionality. Still free.

[Falstius]

You're misunderstanding what they mean by that comment.

Since 8.04 is a long term support (LTS) release which will be supported for years, they don't want to include the still incomplete KDE4. So the only version you can choose to buy commercial support for will use KDE 3. And since a lot of their users don't care about commercial support, there is still the unsupportable KDE4 option.

In short, Kubutu with KDE 4 is missing features because KDE 4 is missing features, not so that Canonical can make money. Both versions are available for free (without paid support).

Re:No limited functionality. Still free.

[AgentPaper]

I took that statement to mean that since KDE 4.0 is still a very new thing and still has a few bugs that haven't yet been shaken out, Canonical isn't supporting it just yet. Once they get it playing nicely with everything else that comes in a typical Kubuntu distribution, they'll rejoin the two fork paths, but for now they're pushing KDE 4.0 support out to the Kubuntu community.

For my $.02, that's probably a smart move, as I played around with the Kubuntu 7.10/KDE 4.0 community release and it's definitely not ready for prime time. Looks beautiful, but the wheels start falling off once you try to do something with it. KDE 3.5 programs break their KDE 4.0 counterparts and vice versa, laptop support is... well, let's call it "less than optimal," installing and uninstalling from the repositories is an exercise in masochism, and God help you if you try to install or use a GNOME-optimized program. I'm sure it will be spectacular once they get the worst of the bugs out, but for now, if I were a tech manager at Canonical, I wouldn't support it either.

Re:No limited functionality. Still free.

[TheLinuxSRC]

I think what they are doing here is keeping a safe, stable desktop for their long-term stable release. This is the release that has commercial support available if you so choose, but it is not required. At the same time, they are trying to keep their community users happy by offering them the option of using a release which has KDE4, but shares the remaining base system. Of course, with KDE4 in it's very early stages they don't want to officially support it. It seems this is just a move to appeal to a broader audience.

Re:No limited functionality. Still free.

[DragonWriter]

I fully admit might be misunderstanding what they meant by that comment, but it looks like a lesser featured free version and a full featured commercial version.

Uh, no. The free version uses KDE4, which is, though "released", still incomplete in several respects. The commercially supported version uses KDE3, which is complete and stable, but not bleeding edge.

This isn't a matter of "free" = "reduced functionality", but "free" = "bleeding edge".

I've not seen the same statement for Ubuntu, which is what prompted my question. And i hope i did misunderstand their future direction.

Of course you didn't see the same statement about Ubuntu, because Ubuntu (vs. Kubuntu) doesn't use KDE, it uses Gnome. Gnome doesn't have a "released-but-incomplete" new version that lots of users might be interested in but that isn't ready to be commercially supported, that I know of, so there is no reason for the split that Kubuntu has.

Re:No limited functionality. Still free.

[bhtooefr]

That's not at all what they're meaning.

Pretend for a second that Microsoft would release a product with no official support, and some stuff broken. (Pretend for a second that Microsoft would release a product with official support, and most stuff working, for that matter.)

Now, pretend it's 2004.

Microsoft wants to update Windows XP. So, they release XP Service Pack 2. That's fully supported, and everything is expected to work.

At the same time, there's major demand for all the shiny features in Longhorn. So, in this hypothetical scenario, they'd release Longhorn as a community-supported version. Nothing's guaranteed to work, it's in alpha. That's what Kubuntu's doing with this KDE4 release.

Re:No limited functionality. Still free.

[HermMunster]

Yes, that's a very big misunderstanding due to poorly worded post. They are saying this.

Ubuntu/Kubuntu is free and will ALWAYS remain free.

Ubuntu/Kubuntu will always provide community support, free of charge.

Ubuntu/Kubuntu will provide paid support if you wish to go that route. Paid support is provided by trained technicians from Canonical, whereas the free support is provided by the community.

KDE 3.5x is the official Kubuntu product.

KDE 4.x is the new version of KDE and thus has not been fleshed out.

There is paid support for KDE 4.x, but it is limited due to the fact that it hasn't been fleshed out.

There is no cut down to size version of Ubuntu/Kubuntu and there is no branching that forces you to accept something less unless you are willing to pay extra.

The only difference is that KDE 4.x is not accepted by the Kubuntu folks as being stable and feature complete to include it in the official 8.04 release of Kubuntu. If you wish you can install it but you probably will have problems and if so you can pay for support. Otherwise, you are supposed to rely on community support.

ubuntu a windows application

[dspolleke]

which allows users to install and uninstall Ubuntu like any other Windows application.

Since when is Ubuntu a windows application? It isn't even an application.. It is a Linux distribution. If Wubi get's out into the world as "the way to install Ubuntu" noob users will assume they need Windows to install a Linux distro.. why is no one creating an app to turn it around? You can convert your Windows partition to a VMware disk and save it to an USB disk or network store.. Install a Linux distro, install a Virtual Machine player (Innotek virtualbox, VMware) put the disk back and load windows from within Linux.. And install and uninstall windows like any other Linux distribution software package

Re:ubuntu a windows application

[kaos07]

Yeah, except the point is to make it easy for Windows users to install Ubuntu so as to drag them away from this DRM infested and buggy hell and into the wonderful paradise of Linux.

Re:ubuntu a windows application

[seandiggity]

Seems like they could just say "which allows users to install and uninstall via 'Add/Remove Programs'".

Typo - Ubuntu community members attention!

[sundarvenkata]

Can somebody change the typo "relatime" to "realtime" in this page: http://www.ubuntu.com/testing/hardy/beta Thanks, Sundar

Re:Typo - Ubuntu community members attention!

[HeroreV]

Why is this modded funny? Is there a joke about "realtime" or "relatime" (relative access time) that I'm not aware of? Or is he just making fun of the above poster who made that mistake?

Re:Typo - Ubuntu community members attention!

[Anonymous Coward]

*facepalm*

New x.org config?

[kaos07]

I remember hearing about this in past updates, but no info in the summary. I've tried to install Ubuntu a number of times on my PC and laptop but I always ending up having graphics card errors and the fixes I've tried either failed, were too convoluted and time consuming or just way above my depth of knowledge. I've heard that that 8.04 will solve a lot of these issues as well as making Ubuntu even more painless to install.

Anyone have any more info on this?

Re:New x.org config?

[zcsteele]

Ubuntu 8.04 uses upgraded versions of X.org, Gnome and an upgraded kernel - Xorg 7.3, kernel 2.6.24, and GNOME 2.22. It might be worth your while to try installing it, or maybe just try the live CD.

Re:New x.org config?

[MrHanky]

xorg.conf is becoming easier and easier with each release. I don't think the file is needed at all any more. Everything is automagically configured, as long as your graphics card is properly supported and the monitor returns the correct information. You can still use it to force specific options if you need.

Not a typo

[GerbilSoft]

The "relatime" mount option tells the filesystem to update atime only when it is older than mtime or ctime. This is better than turning off atime entirely, but doesn't have the performance issues of the older atime functionality.

torrent?

[qw0ntum]

Looks like the update servers are being hit pretty hard. Does anyone have a link to the torrent?

Re:torrent?

[kaos07]

http://releases.ubuntu.com/releases/8.04/

Torrents are down there at the bottom.

http://releases.ubuntu.com/releases/8.04/ubuntu-8.04-beta-desktop-amd64.iso.torrent

http://releases.ubuntu.com/releases/8.04/ubuntu-8.04-beta-desktop-i386.iso.torrent

Re:torrent?

[Anonymous Coward]

http://torrent.ubuntu.com:6969/

Re:torrent?

[wile_e_wonka]

"The" torrent--I'd post a link for you, but there are, like, 50 different torrents depending on which one you're looking for. Just scroll down to the mirrors, and pick a local mirror. I had no problem using one of the US mirrors--the main downloads page wasn't working, but the mirror worked immediately.

Re:torrent?

[qw0ntum]

Thanks :)

Promising beta: performance and very few bugs

[zborro]

I am using the Ubuntu beta since the early Alpha versions and I should admit that everything is going into place very well. Actually using it, you'd never say it's a beta given how polished and smooth the user experience is. A little bloating on the other hand is pervading the desktop setup and maybe too many services are active by default. With 512mb RAM you will need to disable something to have a better experience but compared to some competing OS the situation is really good.
Comparing the Ubuntu 8.04 beta to my other Debian Lenny box with comparable hardware (laptops with 1gb ram and centrino 1.8GHz) Ubuntu feels much faster doing everything. I don't know if it's the kernel 2.6.24 with CFS or some optimization of the libc or something else but the difference is night and day. Debian should care a bit more about performance if it wants to stay the UNIVERSAL OS...

So, up to now: really good and two thumbs up for this "beta" (just a bit different from the stability of KDE 4 beta!....)

Happy dowloading!
marco

Re:Still free? Addendum

[JustinOpinion]

Sorry to reply to my own post, but I think the GP was mis-interpreting this page:

Kubuntu

• Rock solid KDE 3
• Commercial support provided by Canonical for a term of 18 months
• Release available through ShipIt for everybody as well as downloading

Kubuntu KDE 4 Remix

• Cutting edge KDE 4.0
• Support provided by the Kubuntu community via Ubuntu Forums, Kubuntu Forums, IRC, and the Kubuntu Users Mailing List.
• Release available through CDs for groups who need it (ie. LoCo teams, conference teams, etc.) as well as downloading

So, basically, the "fully supported" version of Kubuntu 8.04 will use KDE 3.5. You will be able to purchase commercial support from Canonical if you like, but in any case can always download and use it for free. Or, you can use the more experimental Kubuntu 8.04 Remix, which uses KDE 4.0. In this case you will receive the usual community updates and community support.

Both versions are free, but if you use the more stable version that includes KDE 3.5, you have the option of paying Canonical for commercial support, just like every other official Ubuntu and Kubuntu version. You don't have to pay Canonical to get updates or unlock features or anything... but for businesses who want support contracts the option is there.

And, as I said before, Canonical is opting not to consider Kubuntu 8.04 as an "LTS" release... which means that they will officially provide updates to it for "only" 18 months.

Maybe my girlfriend can actually install Linux...

[Jax Omen]

For some reason, the traditional dual-boot WinXP and Ubuntu does not work for her. 7.10 works great as a LiveCD, installs just fine on her second HDD, but REFUSES to boot from GRUB, no matter what we've tried. MAYBE Wubi would fix that...

Upgrade from 7.10

[amirl]

Anyone managed to upgrade? My last attempt to upgrade (alpha 5) was disaster and broke my machine completely.

Re:Maybe my girlfriend can actually install Linux.

[Neodudeman]

Did you try installing it to your master drive instead of a slave drive?

PulseAudio

[quanticle]

How's the PulseAudio decision working out so far? I've run into lots of PulseAudio problems in Fedora (which enabled it by default in Fedora 8), so its a little bit surprising that Ubuntu has decided to enable PulseAudio by default. Personally, I don't think PulseAudio is yet ready for mainstream use, so I'm wondering what the justification for this decision was.

Re:PulseAudio

[427_ci_505]

I can't comment about Ubuntu and PulseAudio, but Fedora 8 has never given me an ounce of trouble.

ymmv

Re:PulseAudio

[kripkenstein]

How's the PulseAudio decision working out so far? I've run into lots of PulseAudio problems in Fedora (which enabled it by default in Fedora 8), so its a little bit surprising that Ubuntu has decided to enable PulseAudio by default. Personally, I don't think PulseAudio is yet ready for mainstream use, so I'm wondering what the justification for this decision was.

Indeed there are problems with PulseAudio, and I agree, this was a risky choice for an LTS release.

Here is one example bug: audible stuttering, pops. It appears to be primarily a PulseAudio matter, in that sound breaks up under CPU load: even alt-tab to another app like Firefox that renders at 100% CPU for a fraction of a second. However it may also be related to the new scheduler (CFS), since desktop responsiveness in Hardy seems poor compared to previous Ubuntu releases, particularly on low-end hardware. But it's a beta, so perhaps it'll be fixed.

Re:PulseAudio

[Anonymous Coward]

I was using the 8.04 Alpha 6 for the past few days on a T60, and so far I am pleased with the new audio system. It sounds as good as it ever has (I would say slightly better in a couple of cases, but that is a bit subjective). I have had no errors so far, and it automatically handles the connection and removal of a USB sound device very smoothly.

I am exactly a power user as far as audio systems go, but music and videos, along with application sounds, have all been working great. I know I heard of some problems with Skype, but that seems to mainly apply to poor coding on Skype itself, and I have not tried it personally.

Re:PulseAudio

[pembo13]

I'm guessing the Fedora and upstream got a large amount of the bugs out, so Ubuntu is ready to use it.

Re:PulseAudio

[ta bu shi da yu]

What sort of problems though? Your post is too vague to comment on. I'm running a version of PulseAudio now on Hardy Heron and I'm not having any issues.

Re:PulseAudio

[AvitarX]

It's been working fairly well for me (I have been using since way too long ago, and must in the future remember to at least wait for Beta).

I have had very few audio problems.

I did have Amarock stop making sound at one point, and had to configure it to use pulsaudio (by default I think it was auto-detecting?)

Currently (noticed last night) vlc is making no noise, and I have been using Movie Player (Xine) instead. I would guess it is a similar problem.

Audio does seem more prone to skipping than it should (but I have no comparison, and it reall just be my hitting the disk really hard causing it).

The most useful thing in the new version for me has been .docx support. The compositing gnome window manager is nice though, and the new way it displays copying files is fantastic. Shelf in Compiz is really great too, and one of the few flashy things I find useful.

There was recently a problem with updates that caused an un-bootable system, which I don't hold against them, and I still updated another computer to 8.04 after it (a week ago), but it is a fair waring about using pre-release software.

Re:PulseAudio

[One Childish N00b]

I'm wondering what the justification for this decision was.

The feature-for-feature pissing contest they have with Vista. Vista says they have per-application sound support? Ubuntu has to slap in PulseAudio, despite it's obvious unreadiness for mainstream adoption, just to say "YEAH, WE HAVE THAT TOO!". It's just another checked box.

It's a shame, as I'd rather Ubuntu spent more time enhancing the features that make it better than Vista than getting involved in buggy tit-for-tat feature creep.

Re:PulseAudio

[One Childish N00b]

Troll? No. I love Ubuntu. I love what it's done for Linux - it's taken it beyond Windows in terms of 'an OS my mother can use to surf the net and check her email' and she also does accounts for several businesses in OpenOffice (I know OpenOffice isn't an Ubuntu product, but she wouldn't have learned it were it not for Ubuntu). The emergence of Ubuntu and the horror that is Vista - and, to a certain extent, XP - the reason I switched her over was the constant problems I had with her wifi under XP - mean Canonical have really made strides into the 'Linux on the Desktop' market - it's not there yet, but it could be with a manufacturer on their side.

The point of my original post was to say that Ubuntu should focus on it's own merits instead of getting into the pissing contest over features with Vista. Nobody I know who has Vista uses the per-application audio, they just turn their speakers up and down and have done with it. I'm pretty certain most people don't even know it's there, so it's obviously not a 'killer feature' for Vista that's going to make people choose it over Ubuntu, so why try to lever a product that many others have said is not ready for mainstream release, i.e. PulseAudio, just to 'catch up' to a feature nobody knows even exists? Yes it has more features than ESD and that's great, but ESD works just fine, and will do at least until PulseAudio is a little more mature: everything supports it, it's well maintained, and is in the 'good enough' sweet spot.

Thing is, including it seems to me like someone is concentrating too much on making Ubuntu (and Linux in general) tick all the boxes Vista ticks, regardless of how irrelevant they are. If that's a troll, then so be it. Me? I think Linux in general and Ubuntu in particular ticks more boxes for my needs and the needs of lots of others than Vista does, and they should concentrate on pulling away from Windows in those areas - speed, ease of use, etc - and not on matching every little feature Vista has just to be able to say "nyah nyah" when the Windows fans scream about the 'per-application audio' they have but nobody uses.

Re:PulseAudio

[Anonymous Coward]

From my point of view and experience with PulseAudio, it's most of the times ALSA, which is not communicating correctly with PulseAudio. Also PulseAudio's HAL module seems to have some problems too. See this bug report from ALSA: https://bugtrack.alsa-project.org/alsa-bug/view.php?id=2601

Also Ubuntu is just beta, so it's not stable yet. Also because of the problems existing with the current audio situation on Linux, it's a good decision to make PulseAudio default. It has communication layers with almost all possible audio servers/API's on Linux. It has good sound mixing capabilities. It can transfer audio via network, which is also an advantage for LTSP. It is cross-platform compatible, so it runs on Windows as well. So eventually it will make things a lot easier for managing audio stuff.

I hope they will improve the compatibility with PulseAudio. Also I hope that Skype will get support for PulseAudio.

Re:PulseAudio

[quanticle]

Well, there were a wide variety of problems, ranging from occasionally choppy playback to complete loss of sound functionality. I think the most common issue, though, was the fact that PulseAudio would only allow sound to be played from one application at a time. Thus, if you were playing some background music, and wanted to listen to something else, you were out of luck.

Re:PulseAudio

[quanticle]

Well, I'm on Fedora 7 now, and I haven't had any trouble either. The main issue I've been hearing about is that PulseAudio only allows one application at a time to play audio. This means that you can't have background music playing while you play a game, for example. Its the reported difficulties with PulseAudio that have kept me from upgrading to F8.

Alternative : LiveUSB

[DrYak]

In addition to what other /.ers said about WUBI, there's also the possibility to use Live USB distribution.
PenDrive Linux has a lot of resources about this kind of distributions.
I've been using their Quick and easy Pendrivelinux for quite some time.
You can buy commercial preinstalled ones from companies like Mandriva Flash.

It works to a very similar way to WUBI, but on a flash drive.
Essentially it puts 2* big files that contain the file system on the USB drive, and make the USB stick bootable using "syslinux". You start it by hitting F12 when the BIOS starts and choose to boot on the USB drive instead of your hard drive.
(whereas WUBI puts a big file with the partition /on the windows drive/ and adds a new entry to the Windows boot loader to make the system. So you boot you hard drive normally and then use Windows XP's boot menu to select Linux instead of WinXP).

So in that solution, your hard drive is virtually untouched (not that creating a file and adding an entry are *that* much big change) so it may please more the paranoid admins at your company.

Last-but-not-least there's also the running-Linux-inside-Virtualbox (or some other virtual machines that have native-speed performance) solution. It's a bit complicated, but has the benefit of letting you run your Linux apps along side the Windows desktop (with possibilities for native integration, either using a X-Window server for Win32, or using the virtual machine's client tools).

* - most Live USB solutions tend to use 2 files : one is a big read-only file containing the live system, the other is read-writeable and used to store and remember modification (newly installed software, upgrades, user settings, user's home, etc.) between session.
This is because most Live USB distribution are descendant of Live CD distribution (where the CD-Rom is read only and holds the live distro and a RAM-disk holds the modification, using a UNIONFS to bridge the 2 together).
The big advantage of this system is that in case of a big fuckup, you can still reboot using only the original live system (just like a LiveCD) and fix/rebuild/create a new read-write big file.
Of course there are also other solutions for partitioning and installing linux on a USB stick the same way you install it on a harddrive.

Re:Maybe my girlfriend can actually install Linux.

[Raineer]

Seconded, I've always had trouble with multi-drive multi-boot setups and Windows. Win just doesn't play nicely with GRUB. As far as WUBI goes, I'm surprised to read so many comments like it's a new thing. It's essentially a dual-boot setup which doesn't require its own partition, it worked plenty well on 7.04 and I would expect the same thing for 8.04 (which I have installed now, and it looks nice but there are some polishings that need to occur.) Just don't forget folks, this is an Alpha release which is usually intended for developers only. Don't start selling Grandma on 8.04 just yet!

** How does this compare with VMWare server perf?

[scuba_steve_1]

I use (the free) VMWare Server (not ESX) on Windows boxes for various Linux installs...including Ubuntu. I do not understand an earlier comment stating that VMWare Server is complex. You install it as a Windows application, fire it up, select "new VM", choose a linux distro (Ubuntu 32 and 64 are options) for the VM architecture, and away you go...you now have a VM ready for a Linux install. The Live Ubuntu CD works with no issues...as does the default Ubuntu install.

You can also tweak the number of processors, hard disk size, and memory that you assign to the VM, but VMWare suggests low-end (working) default values. I have run VMWare on numerous machines (laptops, desktops, servers) and it just plain works. It is a fantastic way to test out various distros without putting the Windows partition at risk. If you take the time to mount and install VMWare Tools in the VM's hosted OS, switching back and forth between the host and guest OSes (including copying and pasting) is a breeze. You can also have as many VMs (and OSes) installed as you please. Want to play with 8.04 without losing 7.10? No problem. Create a new VM.

Downsides include:

  - It is virtualized. Thus, it is going to run significantly slower than a native install.

  - You are limited by the types of hardware architectures that VMWare simulates. That said, I have not had issues getting any sound or graphics card to work...and the networking options are fantastic. I cannot get access to all four cores however. The free VMWare server only allows me to create a VM that simulates either 1 or 2 CPUs...and I am not sure how many cores the VMWare container is using.

  - Memory...since Windows is still running, it needs its share. Thus, you need a lot.

Of course, on the positive side, Windows is still running...so you have access to whatever you need there (e.g., Outlook, games, whatever). You can also run in reverse, and run VMWare on Linux and install Windows in a VM, but I dare say that most of us are in a situation that requires (or prefers) the VMWare on Windows approach.

I assume that Windows is not running in the WUBI option and that Ubuntu is running right on the metal (not virtualized), with full access to the real hardware architecture and all of the memory. Putting the HD in a Windows file must have some performance impact, but most likely far less than the entire OS in a VM (which also uses the Windows file approach for the HD). Does anyone have anecdotal performance impressions for WUBI? It sounds very cool and a great option for someone who is not yet committed...but I will say that I am not much of a fan of modifying the boot loader, but perhaps I am just being overly skittish.

Steve

What's new

[Aaron Isotton]

Here's what's I think is important (and new) Ubuntu 8.04 Beta, with my comments. There are more new things, but I don't care about them.

Xorg 7.3 - the main advantage should be easier configuration, especially in multi-monitor setups. I haven't tried it yet, so I can't say. But it can only be better than what we have now.

Linux kernel 2.6.24 - The new & neat things here are dynticks for amd64 (power savings), the new CFS scheduler (you should experience less lags when your system is loaded). I'm mostly interested in the dynticks part.

PulseAudio - this is supposed to clean up the linux audio mess. I say wait and see.

Firefox 3 Beta 4 - I tried Beta 3 and it's *really* an advance over Firefox 2. I can't say that I personally witnessed any real speedups, but the new location bar is really cool. It takes a day or two to get used to it, but it really changes the way you surf.

Transmission - a new Bittorrent client. I'm using it regularly since months, and it *rules*. It's exactly the way a bittorrent client should be.

Brasero - a new CD/DVD burning program. I have never used it, but I can only hope that it is the way Nero 5 was.

World clock for the clock applet - that's really handy. Never type "what's the time in california" into google again!

Virtualization - it's supposed to be some super-easy and clicky integration of virtualization. I'm looking forward to it.

Re:What's new

[elrous0]

I remember complaining here about what a pain-in-the-ass it was to set up Ubuntu 7.04 to use a multi-monitor setup, only to be blasted by legions of Linux zealots claiming that there was absolutely nothing wrong with the way Ubuntu handled screen resolution and dual-monitors--and it didn't need to be improved on since it was so easy to fix by simply doing a complicated edit to the xorg config file. Now those same zealots are singing the praises of Canonical for fixing an annoying problem that, until this new version was released, they denied was a problem.

Such is the way with zealots.

June 5, 2005: Jim the Mac fan says "PowerPC chips are way more powerful and reliable than any of that Intel crap you PC fans use!"
June 6, 2005: Steve Jobs announces Apple will henceforth be using Intel chips
June 7, 2005: Jim the Mac fan says "Steve made the right decision. The Intel chips are clearly superior."

Re:What's new

[ArsonSmith]

You forgot some perspective to your zealotry example:

Later June 5 2005: Intel increases performance and power of x86 chips while PowerPC loses support of Motorola and stagnates.

Re:What's new

[Alsee]

Never type "what's the time in california" into google again!

Cool. I never tried that one before.

No big deal, results are just what you'd expect from Google. I'm sure a few thousand of people will Slashdot it anyway just to try it, so here it is in convenient linky linky form.

-

Re:What's new

[jd]

The only result that surprised me was: PezCycling News - What's Cool In Pro Cycling

Re:What's new

[Anonymous Coward]

Brasero - a new CD/DVD burning program. I have never used it, but I can only hope that it is the way Nero 5 was.

Aaron Isotton, if Brasero fails to please, try K3B. Works well, and somebody really understands how to make a GUI for both simple and option-heavy use. Very nice piece of kit. It should be passed around as an example of How It's Done.

Re:What's new

[Reziac]

How's 8.x for performance? I just tried 7.last, and lordy, was it slow. Everything seems to work (which is an improvement over 5.x and 6.x) but even on a 2GHz machine with 1GB of RAM, every new operation involved noticeable wait-time.

Previously I'd had 6.something on an 800MHz box, and while not precisely slick (tho much faster than 5.x on the same box), it still ran rings around the 7.x install on the 2GHz box.

Grub and Windows

[kcdoodle]

I have only been able to get windows to run when Grub is physically on the same drive as Windows. This makes me put Windows on the first drive, and Linux on any other drive (including the first). As long as Windows and Grub are on the first drive (and the /boot/menu.lst is visible), Windows boots fine from Grub.

Another note, when booting from Bios (not using Grub), Windows can be on any drive, even if it was installed differently. In other words, if I install Windows to the first drive (/dev/hda) I can later move it to another position in the computer (via cables and/or jumpers) to (/dev/hdb or /dev/hdc) and still successfully boot Windows from Bios. This same thing DOES NOT work in Linux. When installed, Linux knows which drive it was installed on and ALWAYS needs to be on that drive. Look at /etc/fstab and think about it.

Years ago, I had a Tekram HD controller that would let me change the logical locations of the drives in my computer WITHOUT moving wires or jumpers. I could even tell the system that a connected drive was not connected. SWEET. I could boot from ANY drive and set the drive location all through the Tekram Bios. I have not seen a product like this since.

Re:Grub and Windows

[Jax Omen]

Oh, Windows booted fine from GRUB. No problems whatsoever. Ubuntu refused to boot. She never, EVER got to a HDD-booted Ubuntu. Which is sad, because she loved the LiveCD.

Re:Grub and Windows

[bflong]

There is a way to fix that issue with Windows on a 2nd drive. you basically tell grub to swap the drive mapping between them when booting windows, like this:
map (hd0) (hd1)
map (hd1) (hd0)

More details: http://ubuntuforums.org/archive/index.php/t-384174.html
About half way down.

Re:Grub and Windows

[tweak13]

Look at /etc/fstab and think about it.
That's exactly why you don't use things like /dev/hda if you want to switch drives around. Ubuntu (or any other distro that cares to) uses UUID to define everything in fstab and the root argument in GRUB. UUID is set when the drive is formatted and as such doesn't depend on the physical location and won't change.

Unfortuantely you still have the (hdx,y) setting in grub to change and maybe a reinstall of grub depending on exactly how everything got switched around, but no messing around with fstab or boot arguments are necessary. I've used UUID regularly to set up frequently mounted external drives in fstab so I could mount them quickly without needing to know what order I connected them in.

KDE4

[spikenerd]

I installed Kubuntu beta with KDE4. Almost everything just worked.

Had a tiny issue with KNetworkManager. It only wanted to recognize one network card at a time. I had to manually edit /etc/network/interfaces to fix it. That's the only old-style hackery I had to do. Did everything else via the GUI.

Now it's functioning as a gateway, interfaces with Windows machines on my home network via samba, set up apache and all that stuff. KDE4 is a bit tough to customize. The features are pretty sparse. I can't tell my clock to display seconds, it's really inconvenient to move icons around on the taskbar--gotta go through many menues, etc., but I suppose this will get better with time.

Summary: KDE4 isn't done, but it looks like it will be nice. Almost everything just works.

Forcing App Support

[chunk08]

I partially agree, however, pulseaudio is a full-featured, low-latency audio server. What's missing is app support. While I don't entirely agree with it, this seems to be a move to force applications to support pulseaudio. The Ubuntu developers will probably be writing patches for a number of libraries and applications and sending them upstream. For legacy ALSA and OSS applications, there is pasuspender (pause pulseaudio and give a single app direct ALSA access) and padsp (emulate an OSS device for an application, send its audio to a pulseaudio output). Hopefully we will soon see pulseaudio support in the major audio libraries (PortAudio etc.) ALSA already includes a compatibility drive where you can create a virtual "pulse" device to send output to pulseaudio.

BTW about latency, I tested JACK running on top of PulseAudio on my system with a generic integrated soundcard, and got <2ms without hardware monitoring. <flamebait>Try that under any Windows soundserver.</flamebait>

Re:Actually

[TheLinuxSRC]

Another thing: as a Linuzz contributor (which, believe it or not, I am), i couldn't care less about how many users I will get...

If you are truly a contributor why do you insist on trolling by using "Linuzz"? It detracts from anything you may say, positive or negative, with regard to Linux.

Re:Still free? Addendum

[sricetx]

Will the non-KDE packages in Kubuntu 8.04 receive long-term support, i.e., the rest of the distro will have long term support, but the KDE packages will only have 18 month support? Or will the whole thing only have 18 month support (no updated kernel packages, etc, after 18 months)?

No ntfs-3g?

[SanityInAnarchy]

By your comment about performance being "slightly" slower, and that you "won't notice if you're running on modern hardware", I take it that this is the pseudo read/write mode provided by the kernel NTFS drivers -- that is, you can only read/write to a file, but you can't change any of its attributes, including size, and you can't create or destroy files.

In other words, it's a mode that's really only useful for creating disk images, for things like a Linux filesystem, or swap. Not really like umsdos at all.

I don't actually know this to be true, but I do know that ntfs-3g (which provides full read/write access) is slow enough that I think I would notice the difference if my root filesystem was mounted loopback off of it.

Re:No ntfs-3g?

[HermMunster]

No not at all. You use it just like linux. No noticeable differnce. All security, everything is there. Full read/write.

As far as performance goes on an old laptop with winxp home installed it works flawlessly with little to no performance drop.

If you try it you will see.

Re:No ntfs-3g?

[SanityInAnarchy]

No not at all. You use it just like linux. No noticeable differnce. All security, everything is there. Full read/write.

All well and good, and irrelevant.

I was talking about the NTFS drive. Do you have full read/write access to the Windows drive, too? Or just to your Linux partition/file?

Either way, you have to have full read/write access to the Linux partition/file, that's a given. The question is what NTFS driver is used.

Re:Actually

[SanityInAnarchy]

What, specifically, makes you think that they are not trying to make a better Linux for Linux users?

Problems with Wine by default

[TheBlunderbuss]

Compiz/Beryl takes away OpenGL resources, and pulseaudio doesn't work right with ALSA, let alone the ALSA Wine driver.
I'll be spending so much more time telling people to turn that stuff off.

Oh thank you so much, Ubuntu team!

Wow... ANOTHER version?

[Anonymous Coward]

Jeez, how many times are they going to have to re-release this thing in one year? Can't they just take a bit of time, sit down for a while, and try coding it right?

Can you imagine if Microsoft released a new version of Windows every month? This site would start handing out free torches and pitchforks.

Re:Wow... ANOTHER version?

[scubamage]

Ubuntu is on a 6 month release period - every 6 months there is a new LTS version released which is supported for 6 years (I may be off on the number of years).

Re:Wow... ANOTHER version?

[Anonymous Coward]

Can you imagine if Microsoft released a new version of Windows every month? This site would start handing out free torches and pitchforks.

Relax. While Ubuntu release every 6 months, Microsoft only release every 6 years.

Re:Wow... ANOTHER version?

[tkiesel]

The LTS versions are every two years. (every 4th of the 6 month releases)

Already installed

[cuby]

Hello, even if not recommended for, a main machine (at home), I've installed 8.04 beta. I cleaned the system partition (/home is safe elsewhere) and made a fresh reinstall. My current installation has several upgrades on it and I want a good LTS, free of old stuff.

My first impressions... The theme is almost the same, the menus are the same, but there are some theme inconsistency between windows...some processes lunched by root get a different theme. Emerald not working.

the new applications rock, lots of changed applications, upgrades and beta software... As an LTS I think the developers chose soft that may be maintained longer, even if it is still in beta.

By the way, Firefox 3B4 integration with gnome is fantastic.

Only a thing that is not so good. If you have multiple accounts in the computer, the installer won't scan /home for users, so you will have to add them manually... The problem is that the GUI to add/change groups don't let you assign a new user to an existing /home/stuff dir. Also, nautilus (running as root) is broken when you try to change the ownership of something.

All hardware running well, no strange things happening. Yet. Congratulations and many thanks to the ubuntu dev team.

Re:Already installed

[Tarlus]

If you have multiple accounts in the computer, the installer won't scan /home for users, so you will have to add them manually... Not to claim that I am by any means an expert with this, but shouldn't it be using /etc/shadow instead of directories under /home anyway?

Re:Already installed

[Anonymous Coward]

But if you are doing a fresh install, with just the /home directory surviving on a previous partition, there is no /etc/shadow from the old install, just the fresh one that is being created.

And it should use /etc/passwd in any case, not /etc/shadow.

Re:Already installed

[cuby]

well... I posted a new idea about importing existing ubuntu accounts. http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/5320/
let's see if it rises some interest.

Can you upgrade with this?

[tjstork]

I have an earlier version ubuntu. Can I just upgrade in place?

Re:Can you upgrade with this?

[Flooded77]

You can update to the current Hardy Heron beta by typing 'update-manager -d' in your console. I upgraded from Gutsy just fine, but be warned - it is still in beta. YMMV

Re:Can you upgrade with this?

[r3m0t]

Or when it comes out, the update manager icon should appear in your "tray". After installing all updates in the usual manner, a banner will come up that "a new release (Ubuntu 8.04) is available". Then it lets you see the release notes and does the upgrade process.

It might be a day or two after the official release date because your local mirror may need to be synced.

Re:Still free? Addendum

[JustinOpinion]

Everything except KDE packages will have long-term support.

After all, you can install Ubuntu 8.04 LTS, and then install the package "kubuntu-desktop" to add all the required KDE packages. Most of the system (kernel, servers, most apps, GNOME, etc.) will be covered by LTS and receive patches for years. The KDE components will only receive patches for 18 months (of course after that you can just upgrade to the next supported version of Ubuntu or Kubuntu anyway).

Re:** How does this compare with VMWare server per

[ScrewMaster]

but I will say that I am not much of a fan of modifying the boot loader, but perhaps I am just being overly skittish.

Well, the summary says that it does not modify the existing bootloader. Not that I've RTFA yet or anything.

Re:Actually

[LighterShadeOfBlack]

If you're a Linux contributor (and also then presumably a user too), then the benefit of more Linux users should be obvious: Better driver support from hardware manufacturers, more software being targeted to the platform, and of course more people willing and able to contribute to Linux and Linux-oriented software.

While it's a fair point that blindly copying Windows is not a good idea, I don't see many Linux distributions doing that. There is plenty going on in the arena of Windows inter-operation sure, but that's something entirely different.

Except this doesn't use virtualization...

[ebbomega]

This actually boots directly into the image file that has the kernel installed to it and runs linux natively.

Grub already does this automagically - booting into Windows natively. But there is no option to install Windows as a separate partition within the filesystem (ie as an iso file) or to remove both the file and the boot option via package removal.

If Wubi get's out into the world as "the way to install Ubuntu" noob users will assume they need Windows to install a Linux distro..

Huh? This makes no sense. It's an option, not a requirement. Nowhere in the Ubuntu system recommendations does it say you need Windows... Why in God's name would anybody think that? Use of Wubi is a tool, not a requisite. Frankly if anyone is dumb enough to think that you NEED Windows to run Linux, they're probably Windows users anyways.

Re:** How does this compare with VMWare server per

[scuba_steve_1]

Actually, is states that it does not "affect the existing bootloader", but you are right...I definitely missed the boat there. I read that description, but I think my past experience unconsciously dismissed that line because I do not see how that is possible. That said, I have googled a bit since posting my original message and it appears that it does not replace your boatloader, but does require upadtes to the existing loader...as well as adding another one. Specifically, it does this:

1. On installation, WUBI adds an entry in the settings of the ntldr boot loader of Windows 2000/XP/2003.

2. That entry points toward a special version of the grub bootloader (grub4dos) that does not overwrite to the Master Boot Record on your hard drive.

3. On boot, it searches for wubi/boot/initrd and wubi/boot/linux.

(paraphrased from https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WubiGuide)

Modifying boot.ini is no big deal...as long as they stay away from my MBR. Thanks for keeping me honest.

cheers,
Steve

Re:** How does this compare with VMWare server per

[binaryspiral]

It is virtualized. Thus, it is going to run significantly slower than a native install.

I disagree with this statement. VMWare doesn't introduce a lot of overhead in their virtual machines. A few percentages difference from running it "on metal".

Re:** How does this compare with VMWare server per

[scuba_steve_1]

My empirical evidence shows otherwise. That may be due to a range of factors...not the least of which is the fact that the VM creates a hardware architecture that is more generic and thus, you may not have access to optimized drivers for your specific hardware (e.g., graphics card). The fact that an entire windows stack is running underneath the VMWare server application also cannot be understated, however, regardless of how efficient the VMWare Server application is. Keep in mind, I am talking about (the free) VMWare server...and not VMWare ESX.

BTW, this isn't just theoretical for me. I have numerous VMWare Server installs.

One example, I have Ubuntu 7.10 installed on two devices at home:

1) Installed as the actual OS on a 5 year-old Compaq laptop with 512 MB of RAM (and it was a budget laptop the day that I bought it new)

2) Installed in VMWare on a intel-based quad core Q6600 with 4GB of RAM, an 8800GT GPU, and a 10k Raptor Hard Drive...running XP SP2 as the base OS.

The compaq laptop Ubuntu performance absolutely SMOKES Ubuntu running in VMWare in the Q6600...even when the Q6600-based PC is running nothing beyond anti-virus, anti-spyware, and other lighter weight services. I don't have CPU mark tests, so I apologize for throwing out an assessment without objective measures to base it...but I stand by it. I will try to run some tests to isolate the GPU factor however, since I really believe that is a large part of the issue. Native graphic drivers are just plain better.

Dual monitors in Hardy

[SEMW]

Xorg 7.3 - the main advantage should be easier configuration, especially in multi-monitor setups. I haven't tried it yet, so I can't say. But it can only be better than what we have now. Having had a rather bad time trying to get dual monitors set up in Gutsy, I've just tried the new screen applet (using the vanilla auto-configured xorg.conf).

Looked pretty good at first; it shows the two monitors side by side, showing the one I hadn't been using with a screen resolution set to 'off'. I set that to 1152x864, and pressed 'apply': Lo and behold, it turned on and showed my desktop at that resolution -- except that the monitor I had been using before was now set to 'off'. I used the applet to turn that monitor on, it did so -- and turned my secondary monitor back off.

The old 'Screens and Graphics' manager is still installed, only it's been moved over to the 'applications' menu for some reason. It still works identically to how it worked in Gutsy. By which I mean: not at all.

Not impressed.

Re:Dual monitors in Hardy

[Pyrophor]

I had the same problems. Look at your video card and the drivers used. If you are using an NVIDIA card to run dual monitors, get away from the 169 drivers and go with the older ones on the NVIDIA site. Then go through your configuration in nvidia-settings and modify your xorg.conf file. Worked for me.

Upgrade to 7.10 was broken, is this better?

[spitzak]

Rather annoyed at Ubuntu. It worked great on my Dell Precision M90 laptop in 6.? (whatever the one before this was). I upgraded to 7.10 and the sound, wireless, and suspend all broke.

I managed to fix them by doing a lot of Google and package installation (here is what worked: the sound required the installation of something like "ubuntu_backports". The wireless (an Intel chip) required the installation of the i386 drivers (as opposed to the "generic" drivers used by the non-default version of the kernel). The suspend required installation of something called "ps_suspend" though I tried a lot of scary-looking other suggestions before this worked, with the annoying fact that I had to reboot every time a test failed. I'm quite certain that most people would not have figured out or tried any of these. (hint for googling: use the animal name, ie "gutsy")

Normally you can blame lack of hardware manufacturer support and/or lack of resources to test things, but not when it worked in the previous version AND the system can be fixed to work in the new version.

From my Google searching it sounds like a lot of people complained about the lack of such quality compared to the previous Ubuntu.

Any word on whether I can expect the same, better, or worse from this new version?

Re:Upgrade to 7.10 was broken, is this better?

[strabes]

I'm sure part of your problem was that you upgraded instead of installing from scratch. However, Hardy Heron is an LTS release which means that it is supposed to work on a ton of hardware and be pretty stable. I admit the three releases in between dapper and hardy were pretty bad; especially edgy and feisty. Regarding your problems suspending, it's generally a problem with hardware manufacturers not releasing linux drivers or specifications so that proper open source drivers can be written. I do have suspend working flawlessly in hardy, but using the MESA drivers instead of fglrx. I guess my advice to you is to wait until the final release of hardy and then install fresh. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. Good luck. By the way, "gutsy" isn't the animal name, "gibbon" is. Searching for the adjective, i.e. "gutsy" is really effective.

Re:Upgrade to 7.10 was broken, is this better?

[spitzak]

Well it kind of encouraged me to upgrade as there was a button to do that in the update manager... And I know installing would be more of a pain as I have to back up the main disk, and I would have to burn an install CD.

For me Feisty worked great, though I did install it from a CD. I was very pleased to see that suspend worked and really shut the machine off, and the wireless worked great too. I think hibernate never worked, though, and the wireless would sometimes not work after suspend (but suspend and wake again would fix it).

I do have suspend working now but it is not coming back anywhere near as fast as it used to. The screen turns on, then off, then back on, indicating that it is perhaps restarting the X server? I am running the evil Nvidia closed-source driver, but except for suspend it works great (in particular it kept working after the upgrade, I don't know if you downloaded a new one or the old one just continued working). It also looks like hibernate works on this version. Also looks like wireless fails after suspend, I hadn't checked that before, sigh...

Re:Upgrade to 7.10 was broken, is this better?

[Anonymous Coward]

I find the Ubuntu releases can vary in quality a bit ; I don't think Gutsy was a particularly good one, and we've mostly stuck with Feisty. From tracking the Hardy alphas/betas it looks to be an improvement, but I'm still a little concerned about pulseaudio.

Windows and Linux..

[Pyrophor]

I never took the time to do a dual boot. Maybe to me it is too much hassle restarting to get into another machine. If you have your working computer (Ubuntu for me..) and your coding computer or gaming (Windows).. Go with the multiple computer set up I think. Synergy is the way to go. I can have my yahoo widgets in Windows, code in VB, and do everything else in Linux and it is just like have running a computer with dual monitors. XP and Ubuntu Gusty make a good combo. I wonder what improvements Hardy will add to the mix? - AHA! Proof that we can truly have our cake and eat it! Excellent!

Re:What's new May I ask....

[davidsyes]

I'm using a Gateway 2000 P6301:

http://support.gateway.com/s/Mobile/2007/Godzilla/1014776R/1014776Rsp2.shtml

It has only VGA out (yep, no HDMI or DVI or other connectors). I have a separate LCD at home that I'd like to "span" or expand my desktop to, but I don't want a "single" screen simply duplicated to the LCD. I want to put on the external LCD any virtual desktop or app of my choosing.

A year or 2 ago, I thought I read in LXF about 2 or more Xserver options to edit by hand to achieve this. There were/are commercial implementations, too. But, I misplaced those mags and can't find the archives online.

My laptop currently is running PCLinux OS 2008, KDE 3.5.8.

Video controller information:

Intel® Graphics Media Accelerator X3100
Up to 384 MB of Dynamic Video Memory

The external LCD is recognized only if connected during boot up. After booting, if the LCD had not been connected, it simply is not recognized, doesn't light up, and I have to connect it and then power cycle if I want to use the external LCD

Currently, I'm looking at:

http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/linux/library/os-mltihed/index.html

http://kerneltrap.org/mailarchive/openbsd-misc/2007/9/2/153902

Can you offer me any xorg or advice?

Thanks!

The Real Question Is.....

[RobDude]

Will Ubuntu 8.04 support my wireless usb network adapter? It's a LinkSys WUSB300N.

And by 'support' I mean, install Ubuntu and have it work. Not edit this, hack that, download the windows driver, run this emulator, reconfigure this thingamabob and so on and so forth. And by 'support' I mean, be able to use it - you know, not just be able to go online but be able to encrypt data using WEP or any of the other methods available to me in Windows.

Not trying to be a jerk or anything; but to me this is the ultimate test for Linux. When it works with the hardware I already own.

Of course, fanboys will tell me that everything already does work (or so they've been claiming for years now). In Ubuntu 7 my wireless adapter didn't work. Rumors of people getting it to work using ndiswrap (provided you use the right version of ndiswrap and edit/change a million different settings and then, WEP didn't work).

If it DOES work, on a fresh install; I'd actually like to reinstall Ubuntu.

Re:The Real Question Is.....

[PCM2]

You can't very well blame the extremely hardworking Ubuntu and Linux kernel developers when hardware manufacturers actively block their attempts to write drivers, refuse to release specs, etc. Sure, it would be another success for Linux if it could support your device without using the Windows drivers. But you act as if it's a failure for Ubuntu when you try to use incompatible hardware with it. In future, try to buy from vendors whose hardware is at least possible to support under Linux.

Re:The Real Question Is.....

[reaktor]

You rant has nothing to do with Ubuntu, or any distro of Linux for that matter.

Linksys does not release specs for open source folks to write drivers, nor do they provide drivers for Linux. Look for Ralink (Edimax brand) or Intel based cards. They provide Linux drivers.

VOIP Clients Need Love under pulseaudio on Ubuntu

[j0ebaker]

The move to pulseaudio as the default sound systems is welcomed.  It's mastry of emulating OSS, ALSA and ESound are simply awesome and supposedly these are emulated more efficiently than the origtional competing sound systems.
The problem is that there is an alsa compatibility library that needs to be fixed ASAP before this distribution gets released.

To see the breakage just run the VoIP client named Ekiga and get into it's audio wizard.  It just hangs there.

I've been studying long and hard to learn Asterisk and I'll be damned if I will run a distribution that can't provide audio to SIP client software on my laptop.

https://answers.launchpad.net/alsa-plugins/+question/27568

I was an early adopter of pulseaudio on my 7.10 laptop and have suffered not being able to run voip clients such as:
  X-Lite
  iaxcomm
  Ekiga
  Twinkle
  Kphone

I really like Ubuntu, but I'm concerned they may loose significant market share if they don't resolve this matter FAST in the beta stages of 8.04.

-Joe Baker
GPG Key ID DDEC0260

Re:Actually

[lawn.ninja]

He's just afraid of his OS becoming mainstream, because then he'll have to start using BeOS to be cool. I mean running what everyone else does is so uncool.

Re:Actually

[spazdor]

B-b-b-but interoperability! Globalization!

Uhh, Iraq war!

Re:** How does this compare with VMWare server per

[Digi-John]

My empirical evidence shows otherwise...
...I don't have CPU mark tests, so I apologize for throwing out an assessment without objective measures to base it

If you're going to claim to have empirical evidence, please don't turn around and say you don't have any measurement, but it sure FEELS a lot slower. That said, I agree that running any full Linux or other big OS on a VM is going to be slower. Even Plan 9 isn't too quick when you're running it on VMware under Windows.

loopmounted filesystem

[sentientbrendan]

Wubi states that it uses a "loopmounted" filesystem to boot off a disk image contained within an NTFS filesystem. My question is, how does this work?

Don't you need a NTFS driver to read the disk image off of the loop mounted partition, and to be able to write back to it? How does linux know what blocks on the filesystem belong to it, and what blocks are for other files?

Is there any documentation out there on how this sort of thing works?

Re:loopmounted filesystem

[Chandon Seldon]

Don't you need a NTFS driver to read the disk image off of the loop mounted partition, and to be able to write back to it?

Yes. There has been a fully functional NTFS driver for a while now.

Re:loopmounted filesystem

[sentientbrendan]

>Yes. There has been a fully functional NTFS driver for a while now.
Are you saying that they use the NTFS-3G driver in this project from personal knowledge, or are you just pointing out that such a driver exists?

Phat Linux

[asalazar]

Phat Linux did this six years ago, but is now defunct.
Check its remains at ahref=http://phatlinux.com/about.html/rel=url2html-28947http://phatlinux.com/about.html/>

Re:** How does this compare with VMWare server per

[Locutus]

the big difference from what I saw on the Wubi website is that to install Ubuntu, there's like one dialog box with about 6 items and then you reboot. Not much to scare any Windows user away there. Now, with VMware, you install VMware server, start it, have to know what creating a new virtual machine means and how to do it. there's alot of options about version of operating systems, CPUs, disks, networking, etc. Sure, if you know what all this is it is a piece of cake and quite a treat compared to dual booting. But man, there's alot for Joe Sixpack to run crying to mama about in there. Wubi looks like it is as easy as installing any simple Windows application and the result is you can boot into it running directly on the raw metal, or continue booting into Windows.

Most Windows users don't know what a partition is and I've had my fill of people talking about the "D" drive when they are talking about their CDROM. Wubi makes getting Ubuntu on newbies or naive Windows users desktops so they can play with it and learn how easy( or hard ) it is.

I'll continue with VMware but Wubi is definitely something I'll have a few who've recently asking me about Linux. Heck, it now looks so easy, I bet the local school board members could even give it a try.

LoB

Re:** How does this compare with VMWare server per

[Anonymous Coward]

- It is virtualized. Thus, it is going to run significantly slower than a native install. Are you kidding? Have you ever actually ran VMware?

VMware runs at least 95% as fast as native and often damn close to 100% (with CPU-heavy apps like WinZip/Rar, etc).

I have even run benchmarks in both VMware and native and the results are very close every time.

Re:** How does this compare with VMWare server per

[scuba_steve_1]

Excellent points...and I also assume that performance far exceeds a VM-based install.

That said, for many of us who need to maintain Windows, dual booting is somewhat painful. Can you imagine having to reboot each time that you needed to use Outlook and then reboot again to get back to Linux? WUBI, like most dual booting options, seems like a great idea for someone who wants to take the leap, but doesn't want to commit 100%...but also someone who does not need to routinely perform functions in Windows.

Like many, I need to switch back and forth in real-time...and I also would prefer not to be locked into Windows and just one other OS. A VM-based approach addresses both issues for someone like me. In fact, as I type this in windows, I can glance over at two VMs that I have running on my second monitor - Ubuntu 7.10 and OpenSUSE 10.3...and I can be in either one and back out in a flash. I agree that it is certainly more complex than how you represent a WUBI install...but then I think Joe SixPack may stumble again after the install. Say, perhaps when it comes time to get his wireless drivers working. ;-)

In fact, the last Ubuntu install that I performed had major issues with monitor detection...and each boot took approximately 5 minutes. I hunted dowwn the fix (editing a file of course) and thought of that very same Joe SixPack after I made the fix. Don't get me wrong...I think Ubuntu can be great for low-tech user...and my 78 year-old mother is using a Ubuntu box, which replaced her spyware infested Windows box...but I think we are still quite some distance away from the ease of a windows install with plug-and-play hardware detection. While they have made amazing progress, they are not there yet...and a quick search for "wireless" in the Ubuntu forums will tend to support that bold claim. ;-)

Re:** How does this compare with VMWare server per

[Locutus]

it is good to have choices.

LoB

Re:** How does this compare with VMWare server per

[davidkv]

I too have a quad core Q6600 with 4GB RAM, running Fedora 8. WinXP and Ubuntu (8.04 beta) are both blazingly fast under VMware (workstation 6.0.3) compared to my older desktops and laptops. Actually compared to most 2+ year old machines that I've used with WinXP or Linux natively.

Re:** How does this compare with VMWare server per

[Anonymous Coward]

"It is virtualized. Thus, it is going to run significantly slower than a native install."
I have not found this to be true at all in the area of pure number crunching. Time tests show 1% loss.

Warning about WUBI

[Anonymous Coward]

Installing Ubuntu 8.04 beta using WUBI can leave your system unbootable, and the filesystem not fully recoverable. It just happened to me. I installed through WUBI and got to a the Ubuntu desktop, after rebooting to go back to Windows, it halted halfway in the boot sequence. I'm not the only one, their are several others on the forums with the same problem.

scheduling still sucks

[BlackCreek]

Linux kernel 2.6.24 - The new & neat things here are dynticks for amd64 (power savings), the new CFS scheduler (you should experience less lags when your system is loaded). I'm mostly interested in the dynticks part. Sorry to inform you but scheduling still sucks on Hardy just like it sucked on Gutsy. https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-source-2.6.22/+bug/131094

Dual monitors in Hardy, & the various ATI driv

[SEMW]

I had the same problems. Look at your video card and the drivers used. If you are using an NVIDIA card to run dual monitors, get away from the 169 drivers and go with the older ones on the NVIDIA site. Then go through your configuration in nvidia-settings and modify your xorg.conf file. Worked for me. I'm not, I'm using an ATI card. I'm currently using the open source "ati" drivers, since they at least are stable. However, there seems to be no way of getting them to run dual screens.

The only way I was able to get dual screens running in Gutsy at all was using the ATI binary drivers and their aticonfig utility, which worked, except that the cursor, which looks fine in the primary screen, looks like a large square of random noise in the secondary screen. This is fixed if you enable the SW_CURSOR flag in xorg.conf, only then you get huge artifacts whenever you try to move or click on anything. I tried enabling Compiz to see if that fixes it, only it doesn't work the the ATi proprietry drivers. Not to mention that, when running the proprietry drivers, X.org crashed about once every third time I tried to drag a window from on monitor to the other. And I mean *really* crashed -- as in froze up the system to the extent that neither ctrl-alt-backspace (restart X) nor ctrl-alt-F1 (drop back to console) did anything at all.

As a result, I'm sticking with the "ati" drivers and one monitor only for now. If I want dual monitors, I can always boot into Windows, which has worked fine with two screens with no configuration at all (besides ticking the "Extend my desktop onto this monitor" box) since Windows 98...

Re:** How does this compare with VMWare server per

[blackpaw]

Have you installed the guest video and mouse drivers for ubuntu? that makes quite a difference - optimised drivers for the vmware video "hardware". Also allows the mouse to transparently move from guest to host sessions.

Also, have you tried VirtualBox? the latest versions are pretty good.

Needs work

[MeditationSensation]

I tried it on my plain old Dell machine that successfully ran 7.10, 7.04, 6.10, and 6.04. This one is broken. I hear the startup sound and see the orange background for a second, and then it blanks out and sits at a black screen forever.

Re:Dual monitors in Hardy, & the various ATI d

[Pyrophor]

I originally had an ATI card in and took a trip to the local PC store to get an NVIDIA card. I am with you on the ATI in Linux thing.... I quit. That NVIDIA Card was a $100 investment into my sanity.