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Barack Obama Wins Democratic Nomination

An anonymous reader was one of many who noted that Barack Obama has claimed the Democratic nomination having secured enough delegates and super-delegates to claim victory. Of course, technically this assumes that the supers all vote as they say they will and they are free to change their minds. So no doubt we'll continue to hear debate on this subject until either the convention or Hillary steps down.

273 of 1,788 comments (clear)

  1. People don't learn from history by suso · · Score: 2, Insightful

    People don't seem to learn from history, which may be obvious. But I'm talking about you. All the intelligent people who think they know what they are doing and think that change is on the way .

    I think it would be great if Obama was elected president. It would send a great message to the rest of the world that Americans are a diverse, caring and accepting people. And it would probably greatly inspire a lot of people who have felt oppressed over the past 8 years. But honestly, I don't think he stands a chance. Democratic voters are voting with their hearts and not their heads. From having watched many presidential elections from more of a neutral stance, I can say that to really win, you need to win the votes from both parties, not just your own. Sure, you can win by a narrow margin, but that is hardly marks the beginning of change. Change begins with the populace changing their attitudes. Leaving race out of the issue, how many republicans do you think would vote for someone named Barack Hussein Obama. A name that rings with the sounds of two recent so called enemies.

    So Obama supporters have voted with their hearts and aren't realizing how idealistic they are being. Is it really worth the risk of having republican bullshit for the next 4 years? I don't think so. Obama supporters, you have risked too much. So don't come crying to everyone when he loses. I hope he doesn't
    though.

    1. Re:People don't learn from history by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I'm a republican and I will vote for Obama.

    2. Re:People don't learn from history by Notquitecajun · · Score: 3, Interesting

      As a conservative (current republicans != conservative), part of me is glad that it's Obama, and part of me is ticked that we couldn't put up something more than a fat old white guy again. Congrats to the dems for finally promoting values you've claimed to hold since the '60s...and which Republicans, until now, have usually beaten you on in appointments to higher office.

    3. Re:People don't learn from history by OzRoy · · Score: 5, Insightful
      The problem is I don't think Clinton would do anything in power except maintain the status quo. Her history, and the way she has behaved through this campaign has shown that.


      You may be right that Obama can't win, but in times like this I think sometimes you have to just roll the dice and go for it otherwise nothing changes.

    4. Re:People don't learn from history by Red+Flayer · · Score: 4, Interesting

      You make a valid point.

      However, the counterpoint is that attitudes such as yours result in stagnation. There can be no change if those who would support change abandon their causes.

      Even if Obama loses, the attention his campaign has been getting (and will get) will make it that much easier for the next candidate to break through the bigotry.

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    5. Re:People don't learn from history by The+Warlock · · Score: 5, Funny

      you must live in an alternate reality where the republican party stands for saner government and a balanced budget.

      what's the price of gas over there?

      --
      I've upped my standards, so up yours.
    6. Re:People don't learn from history by bsDaemon · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I work in politics, mostly around a bunch of Republicans. I hear many a reputable rumor that McCain is looking at Bobby Jindhal for VP.

      He's only 37, is Indian but converted from Hindu to catholic a while back, has run many businesses, was a Congressman and then won a special election to be Governor of Louisiana.

      He's younger than Obama, equally not white, and has actually done a thing or two that are worth while.

      Frankly, I'd be totally OK with him as President -- then again, I am still trying to figure out if I hate McCain or Obama more.

    7. Re:People don't learn from history by IndustrialComplex · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Unfortunately, the choices for Republicans ended up being between:

      McCain: no change
      Romney: no change
      Huckabee: Had the best 'Obama-like' way of speaking (refreshing after 8 years of Bushisms), but unfortunately was the christian-religion candidate.
      Paul: In general, most people can agree with him, but the man couldn't debate his way out of a paper bag. You can have the best ideas in the world, but if you can't convince anyone, then even if elected you won't change a thing.

      To be honest, I don't know if Obama will change anything internal to the United States. He IS a Democrat afterall, and we have no reason to expect him to be anything other than a Democrat just as we have no reason to expect McCain to be anything but a Republican.

      He will, however, be our best chance to repair our international reputation. That, at least, is something that I can be thankful for even if I disagree with most of his policy.

      I just wish that I could vote for him.

      --
      Out of modpoints but really liked a post? 1BDkF6TtmmeZ3yqXbz9yhdYVqRYnwFoXDj
    8. Re:People don't learn from history by SCHecklerX · · Score: 4, Insightful

      So Obama supporters have voted with their hearts and aren't realizing how idealistic they are being. Is it really worth the risk of having republican bullshit for the next 4 years?


      What makes you think that democrat bullshit is any better? Neither party serves the interests of the people in this country.
    9. Re:People don't learn from history by Zuato · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I threw everything out the damn window that made me a Republican 8 years ago and until I see a positive change in that party I'm not going back. The Republicans dug the hole they are in. They have to dig themselves out now, and McCain is not the answer. He's already digging that hole deeper.

      http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2008/06/mccain-id-spy-o.html

    10. Re:People don't learn from history by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      What makes you a republican and how do you know what makes him one?

      What is getting thrown out the window?

      Why is leftism bad?

      My View:
          Obama may be the first presidential candidate I vote for from a major political party. Generally you Democrats and Republicans I don't see enough difference between Republican and Democratic candidates. Party voters still make me sick.

    11. Re:People don't learn from history by suso · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You make a valid point.

      However, the counterpoint is that attitudes such as yours result in stagnation. There can be no change if those who would support change abandon their causes. Back in 1999, I fought against the local university over students being unfairly charged for their meals. And I won. At first it was a little win, then slowly over the next few years the university changed their policies. It takes time to change.

      In fact, the dean who I went up against told me something that I haven't forgotten "Its a big ship and if you want to turn it you have to slow it down first." So with a ship the size of a country, unless you want to pick up guns and force change, change takes time.
    12. Re:People don't learn from history by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 5, Funny

      blatent neo-trotskyite proto-statist pseudo-"progressive"


      You say that like it's a bad thing.
    13. Re:People don't learn from history by hansamurai · · Score: 5, Funny

      Leaving race out of the issue, how many republicans do you think would vote for someone named Barack Hussein Obama. A name that rings with the sounds of two recent so called enemies. Let's twist that around a bit:

      Leaving gender out of the issue, how many republicans do you think would vote for someone named Hillary Rodham Clinton? A name that rings with the sounds of two recent so called enemies (Dennis Rodman is one, you figure out the other). See how stupid that sounds, troll?
    14. Re:People don't learn from history by timster · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Your cynical post seems smart to the casual observer. It is not.

      First of all, unless you cherry-pick polls, there is no statistical evidence that Hillary (or some other candidate) would be more successful against McCain. This is a talking point of the Clinton campaign only. You can go on about how names "ring", but without statistical evidence you are frankly spouting nonsense. Your gut feeling that Americans care about someone's name is simply not supported by real facts.

      Your "learn from history" canard reminds us of 2004, when Democratic primary voters chose John Kerry on this cynical view that he was the most likely to "win". Well, he lost. So much for that. The refrain you might have heard from moderate voters four years ago was that they didn't know what Kerry was about, and that his campaign seemed more anti-Bush than pro-anything.

      Obama is not going to win the votes of right-wingers; he will win as all Democrats win, by appealing to the middle and the left. The moderates in this country are smarter than you seem to think.

      --
      I have seen the future, and it is inconvenient.
    15. Re:People don't learn from history by Notquitecajun · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I HOPE not. Louisiana needs Jindal more than US needs him as VP. Also, Jindal only has slightly more experience in government than Obama (which isn't saying much), and has never held down a non-government "real job." If Jindal can help get Louisiana off the bottom of some lists, he'll be considered a success and almost be a walk-in to the Republican nomination in 2016.

    16. Re:People don't learn from history by bleh-of-the-huns · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Whats in a name.. Democrat.. Republican.. those are just names, the issues they stood for fell by the wayside long ago.

      The current crop of politicians have their own agendas, and in many cases, those agendas cross the borders between the party lines, and in some cases, quite far across those borders.

      --
      I came, I conquered, I coredumped
    17. Re:People don't learn from history by theTrueMikeBrown · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Perhaps I am just too liberal, but I don't really think that race will keep Obama from winning. The problem that I see is that the party is so divided. If Hillary keeps fighting to the end she could really split the party.

      The best thing for her to do if she really cares about the Democrats is to drop out now.

      I am the True Mike Brown and I approve of this message.

    18. Re:People don't learn from history by MrDiablerie · · Score: 2, Informative

      Hussein is a pretty common name and you are assuming that all Republicans are biased against anyone with a "foreign" sounding name. This is just more unsubstantiated fear-mongering. I know many Republicans that are going to vote for Obama over someone who probably has mental issues from being tortured by the Vietnamese. Obama has the support, people want to see him win. He's been able to motivate people to vote in the primaries that would have usually stayed at home in past elections. I think this drawn out nomination process has made the job easier for McCain. Hillary has already done all the grunt work for him. But I have doubts the general public is going to vote for someone who would be the oldest president elected to office when they are crying out for change.

    19. Re:People don't learn from history by Carl_Stawicki · · Score: 3, Funny

      He's ...equally not white... Actually he's more not white than Obama, for those who care about that.
      --
      This is my signature.
      soid st egr.hyTa rsiugm usnin
      Any questions?
    20. Re:People don't learn from history by Notquitecajun · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Dang, poor choice of words on my part, and I apologize. I should have said "conservative" and then made it a general statement on those who claim to be Republican and then switch their vote - who I almost automatically see should be conservatives at the base - change their vote for someone who doesn't represent anything that they stand for.

    21. Re:People don't learn from history by canUbeleiveIT · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The best thing for her to do if she really cares about the Democrats is to drop out now.

      True, but if she only cares about being elected in 2012, the best thing for her to do is to stay in as long as possible so as to reduce Obama's chances in the general election, thereby saving herself from the nearly impossible task of wresting the Democrat nomination from a sitting president.

      Unfortunately, the Clintons very often seem to default to the most politically expedient course of action, so this wouldn't surprise me.

    22. Re:People don't learn from history by 77Punker · · Score: 4, Interesting

      McCain and Clinton think torture is OK. Obama does not.

      I believe the USA should be a beacon of hope and civilization, not a crowd of barbarians that so much of the world as been for so long.
      That issue alone is enough to decide who I vote for.

    23. Re:People don't learn from history by Noexit · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Same here, but not if Ms. Clinton is on the ticket.

      --

      Never argue with a man carrying a water buffalo

    24. Re:People don't learn from history by Arathrael · · Score: 2, Informative

      So Obama supporters have voted with their hearts and aren't realizing how idealistic they are being.

      Way to generalise. Has it occurred to you that they might have considered his policies, read his books, just generally done their research and decided that he's the overall best candidate for President?

      I'd add that Obama has, to varying extents, actually done well with independent and republican votes in states where they were allowed to vote in the democratic primaries.

      I'm not saying Obama's a sure thing, but you can't just pick one factor - in this case, prejudice amongst republicans - and say that'll be the decider. I could say "McCain won't win because he's too old", and certainly that'll be a factor too, but it's by no means the only one. You have to look at the whole picture. I don't think it'll be a landslide either way, but certainly Obama is a strong candidate.

    25. Re:People don't learn from history by VJ42 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      He's only 37, is Indian but converted from Hindu to catholic a while back, As a Brit, why does his religion even matter?! Here in the UK a person's religion only starts to matter once they start relying on it for political opinion: then it's generally regarded as a "bad thing". In the US it appears you have to be Christian to run for high office, oh and some token Jews are occasionally allowed too. Is my outsiders interpretation correct? If so I'm thankful that UK politics isn't so religiously divisive.
      --
      If I have nothing to hide, you have no reason to search me
    26. Re:People don't learn from history by larry+bagina · · Score: 4, Insightful
      I'm a conservative/libertarian and I'll be voting for Obama as well (I'd rather be voring for Ron Paul or Fred Thompson).

      Why? John McCain. Campaign Finance Reform. Open Broders. Keating 5. That old person smell. On issues that matter to me, John McCain gets it wrong. Barack Obama might also get it wrong but 1) he's not (yet) part of the washington culture and 2) republicans in congress will start acting conservative.

      --
      Do you even lift?

      These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.

    27. Re:People don't learn from history by MagdJTK · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Indian? Don't you have to be born a US citizen to get that far in politics?

    28. Re:People don't learn from history by twbecker · · Score: 4, Interesting

      McCain is in a rough spot. I think he would be the answer if he didn't have to answer criticisms of not being "conservative enough". Regardless of what I think of his positions, I think he is as honorable a politician as you can find today. But you're exactly right about the party digging their own grave. Even though I respect McCain and I think he would be a huge step up from Bush, I will not be voting for him. But it's more a vote against the party than it is against him personally for my part.

      --
      "The problem with internet quotations is that many are not genuine" -Abraham Lincoln
    29. Re:People don't learn from history by berashith · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I thought their agendas became just getting re-elected. This requires huge input of capital from the party heads, and if you don't toe the party line then you significantly reduce your chances of having funding for the next election.

      All other motives take a back seat, and in my cynical view, the party lines are so dedicated to the money that the true platform for both sides is written by the same money wielding groups.

      The lack of experience of Obama is a bright spot IMHO as far as these matters are concerned.

    30. Re:People don't learn from history by metlin · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You forgot -

      Paul: An idiot candidate who thought he understood economics, but did not even grasp the very basics of it.

      If Paul's fiscal policies were implemented (e.g. going back to the gold standard), the US (and possibly, the world) economy would be shot to hell.

    31. Re:People don't learn from history by bsDaemon · · Score: 2, Insightful

      In a Representative Republic, you are electing a proxy for yourself. This means that people are naturally going to choose people who agree with them. When someone shares your religion they are more likely to agree with you on things that religion influences.

      I'd say its a comfort level.

      Then again, you guys dumped all the fucking puritans on us. The US is just what Britain would be if not for the Restoration of the Monarchy. We have a bunch of damned Cromwells over here.

    32. Re:People don't learn from history by Shakrai · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Ummm...so you're essentially throwing EVERYTHING that makes you a republican out the window to vote for the most leftist presidential candidate from a major party EVER?

      Isn't it amazing how the Republicans manage to label every single candidate that we run as the "most leftist" or "most liberal"? They did it to Al Gore and John Kerry and now they are trying to do it to Senator Obama. Hell, I suspect they'd be doing it if we had nominated Joe Libermann or Zell Miller.

      It's almost enough to give you the idea that they know they can't win on the issues so they have to run a campaign of FUD.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    33. Re:People don't learn from history by Skrynesaver · · Score: 2, Insightful

      OK, first off I'm not a USian and so I may be under informed and unaware of recent history (though from what I can gather so is a large proportion of your electorate ;)

      Most people outside the US would love to see Obama elected as there is a possibility that we might see a country that is aware of a world outside your own borders again.

      And call me naive but Obama seems to be in politics to fight for his vision, is too recent an arrival to politics to be owned by the lobbyists and may actually create interest in the political process in the majority of your population who don't vote.

      --
      "Linux is for noobs"-The new MS fud strategy
    34. Re:People don't learn from history by Nursie · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And modern conservatism is good because it takes from those who don't have much and gives to those who are already rich...

      You don't have "leftist" politicians in the US, by the way. And your so-called right politicians are also interested in huge government and social restrictions.

      There don't appear to be any fiscal conservatives left, on either side of the atlantic.

    35. Re:People don't learn from history by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Unfortunately, your view of American politics is pretty spot on. Even the liberals here going out of their way to appear christian because unfortunately it is a political suicide not to.

    36. Re:People don't learn from history by cduffy · · Score: 2, Funny

      Let's be fair, now -- McCain only thinks torture is OK when he's parroting Bush; when he's thinking on his own, he takes the position that using torture is an invitation to enemies to torture our own troops, and opposes it on those grounds.

    37. Re:People don't learn from history by djseomun · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Full disclosure - I donated $10 to the Ron Paul campaign and voted for him in my state's primary. Having said that, I thought Paul did well in the debates. He refrained from attacking others and continuously emphasized his platform (i.e. what he would do if elected.) A lot of the other contenders were like Jack Johnson and John Jackson; was there any difference in their views at all? With Paul, you knew what he stood for.

    38. Re:People don't learn from history by xappax · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Leftism is bad because it takes from those who earned and gives to those who don't deserve.

      Uh, that's what the American government is all about. Right or Left, everybody's stealing from one group and giving it to some others, many of whom haven't earned it in any way. On the left you have the welfare system, which gives free money to poor people, and on the right you have super-rich tax breaks and "back room corporate deals", which gives free money to the fabulously wealthy.

      You have two choices - either accept this premise, and decide which system of redistribution you think is "least unfair", or reject it entirely, and work to radically change our government and socio-economic system so that all kinds of involuntary redistribution are unnecessary and impossible to execute.

    39. Re:People don't learn from history by bsDaemon · · Score: 3, Informative

      Indian-American, not to be confused with American Indian. He was born here.

    40. Re:People don't learn from history by m.ducharme · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Leftism is bad because it takes from those who earned and gives to those who don't deserve. I would say that conservatism does exactly the same thing. The only difference is whether the non-working poor or the filthy rich are getting what they don't "deserve". In the mean time, the working folk keep getting paid less than their labour is worth, to fund welfare, whether that welfare is corporate or personal. Though in my view, the filthy rich are getting far more than they deserve than the folk who have no jobs.

      (note that although this view sounds *horrors* communist, I don't believe that government intervention is the best way for working people to get fair value for their labour -- I'm more left-libertarian.)

      Disclaimer: I've very much oversimplified my actual views here for the sake of brevity.
      --
      Rule of Slashdot #0: You and people like you are not representative of the larger population. - A.C.
    41. Re:People don't learn from history by smooth+wombat · · Score: 5, Insightful
      As a Brit, why does his religion even matter?!


      Because, for some unknown reason, a large portion of the people in the U.S. equate a person's religion with who they are. It's as if one of the reasons we broke from you folks has been completely forgotten.

      Apparently, people believe that if you believe in some man-made myth of a supreme being who sits high in the sky watching everything you do, who tells you you must follow a set of rules they have set down or else you will be condemned to an eternity of pain and torture yet, who still cares and loves you*, you are somehow more worthy of an elected office than the atheistic heathens who do not believe in a supreme being.

      And we can all see what a great job those religious-minded folks who have been elected to office have done.

      *My apologies to George Carlin fans for not quoting his diatribe accurately. I just wanted to get the gist of his comments.

      --
      We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
    42. Re:People don't learn from history by Hognoxious · · Score: 2, Interesting

      McCain? Right man, wrong time (about 8 years too late).

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    43. Re:People don't learn from history by LeninZhiv · · Score: 4, Interesting

      You have a short memory if you don't think a candidate's religion can be a political issue in the UK: press and pundits made a huge fuss over Tony Blair's sending his children to Catholic school, and tracked every mass he went to up to his conversion to Catholicism last year.

    44. Re:People don't learn from history by Gordonjcp · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Leftism is bad because it takes from those who earned and gives to those who don't deserve.

      So does Rightism. I'd rather my money went to the homeless alcoholic living under a railway bridge than the CEO of some megacorporation who has just wangled himself a massive tax break.

    45. Re:People don't learn from history by xappax · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I don't support him personally, but in your case, why not vote for Ron Paul? Vote for who you want to win, not some asshole who's convinced you he has the best chance to win. Better to stand for your principles and lose than abandon them to win. It's the latter choice (on the part of politicians and the public) that's given us the pathetic political situation we're in today.

    46. Re:People don't learn from history by street+struttin' · · Score: 2

      Yeah, but you can't make saving throws in real life.

    47. Re:People don't learn from history by Mishra100 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The people who aren't going to vote for Obama because his middle name is Hussein are the same people who would look for any excuse to not vote for him without crossing the line.

      If it isn't the name, it will be the way he speaks. If it's not that it will be because of the arguments he had with Clinton. And so on.

    48. Re:People don't learn from history by cowscows · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The supermarket down the street doesn't give a damn how hungry I am, they just want to make money. But the way they've chosen to make money(by selling food), happens to align nicely with one of my priorities in life, which is obtaining food. I honestly could not care less if the manager of that supermarket gets paid well or is happy or whatever. We don't care about each other, but our interests align enough that I choose to go to that supermarket and spend my money.

      The point is that it sucks that the government that we've got isn't as concerned with the citizens as it should be, but unless you've got some brilliant way to change it, we just need to work with what we've got, and make the best of it. Whatever the motivations of the democrats or the republicans are, they do tend to do some things differently, and there's certain areas where the goals of each party might align with my personal goals. What a senator in DC gets out of that whole deal might be completely different from what I get out of it, but that doesn't mean that the end result doesn't affect me and that I can't have an opinion on it.

      It might be as simple as drawing up a list of the pros and cons of some of the basic direction that each party can be expected to go in when you see how it might affect you. Because it will affect you. Even if you believe that everyone at the top is motivated purely by greed, their selfishness leads them in different directions from each other, and one of those directions is bound to be more useful to you than the others.

      --

      One time I threw a brick at a duck.

    49. Re:People don't learn from history by gmack · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If she is seen as reducing Obama's chances in the general election the harm to her reputation and the resulting backlash will keep her from ever having the support needed to try again.

    50. Re:People don't learn from history by sesshomaru · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Look, I'm not exactly a fan of Ron Paul, but why would PNAC like him? He's an isolationist, they are interventionists. He's anti-Israel, they are pro-Israel. He wants to reduce the defense budget, they want to increase it.

      Also, I'll grant that PNAC's ideas are insane, but they are hardly "fringe." When you get 90% of your program enacted by the executive branch, you aren't on the fringe anymore. They never were really, they've always had powerful friends in both parties. Heck, as I see it, PNAC won two presidential elections and have cowed the Democratic congress enough to basically go along with them ("impeachment is off the table," to quote the Speaker of the House).

      Without copying their goals, I'd say any political movement in America would do well to study their strategy and tactics, they've really done well politically and I don't think that their ideas are particularly popular with the electorate. Even if other political movements find PNACs tactics repugnant, they still need to study them to effectively counter them if their opposition decides to use them.

      Incidentally, I'm not a fan of Paul because he wants to repeal birthright citizenship, among other things.

      --
      "MIT betrayed all of its basic principles."
    51. Re:People don't learn from history by vigmeister · · Score: 4, Insightful

      In the US it appears you have to be Christian to run for high office, oh and some token Jews are occasionally allowed too. Is my outsiders interpretation correct? Yes. "Being Christian" is something that voters in the US want in a candidate more often than not. Sure you have the occasional county that votes for one of those goddamn atheists, but being Christian or 'atleast Jewish' is considered to be a sign of high moral and family values. The populace treats you well enough if you believe in a religion and there is mild distrust if you are an atheist, but the political system has always been a bit behind the society. A black man is finally a serious contender for President and a woman almost was. In about 50 years, you'll have an atheist in office.

      P.S. I think the opening lines of The Communist Manifesto may have an effect along these lines: "Communists think that religion is a drug and they condemn in. We need to be high on it all the time if we are NOT Communists"

      Cheers!
      --
      Atheist: Buddhist in a Prius
    52. Re:People don't learn from history by WindBourne · · Score: 2, Informative

      To be pres/vice-pres, yes, you must be born here. All else is open. In fact, I am guessing that Schwarzenegger may chose to be a senator once he is done with Gov.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    53. Re:People don't learn from history by xappax · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Actually, McCain thinks torture is not OK, which is why the US don't torture anyone.

      What's that? Oh...well that's not torture.

      Oh and that? Hm...well see, that wasn't technically "the US".

      Convenient how that works, huh?

    54. Re:People don't learn from history by pirhana · · Score: 5, Informative

      > Generally you Democrats and Republicans I don't see enough difference between Republican and Democratic candidates. Party voters still make me sick

      This is exactly why Hillary lost the game and Obama got it. People in US(and around the world , though irrelevant) were fed up of the status-co politics. They wanted something different and someone who can make a change. As citizens and consumers, people want products which are different. Especially when they realize that the product they have currently(Bush) sucks so bad. Hillary miserably failed to understand this pulse and stuck with same old crap. There is no perceivable difference between Hillary and Bush. The differences are really cosmetic. Iraq is just one example where there is a striking parallel between the policies of Bush/Mcain and Hillary.

    55. Re:People don't learn from history by Cro+Magnon · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Ummm...so you're essentially throwing EVERYTHING that makes you a republican out the window to vote for the most leftist presidential candidate from a major party EVER?


      I didn't turn my back on the Republicans. They turned their backs on me. I wanted fiscal conservatives. I got spending that made the liberals turn green with envy. I wanted strong foriegn policy. I got a war over non-existant WMDs, which has weakened both our military and our political capital with other nations. I wanted to escape the Democrats fear-mongering. I got Republican fear-mongering.

      --
      Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
    56. Re:People don't learn from history by socialhack · · Score: 2, Insightful

      McCain actually doesn't support torture - He was at the front of the line to attack the Bush administration for their views. He knows how well torture works (or doesn't) as he was on the receiving end in Vietnam.

      --
      Never leave a dead horse unbeaten!
    57. Re:People don't learn from history by canUbeleiveIT · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Perhaps I am just too liberal, but I don't really think that race will keep Obama from winning.

      I wish that I could agree with you here, but I can't. Of the people I come into contact with who usually vote Democrat and are white (generally labor union types, government union employees and folks on the dole), most are willing to totally ignore the fact that they have the most to gain from Obama winning and yet will vote against him because they're convinced that he will do things like legalize black men raping white women

      I realize that the above was something of an overstatement but I guess that I am reacting to the frustration of dealing with how to respond to the sheer hostility towards minorities that I deal with constantly. Example within the past month include:
      -A neighbor who refers to the Starlings that live in his eaves as "nigger birds."
      -Another neighbor who regaled me with stories of a weekend camping trip with his cop friends that including a fellow camper shouting "white power" as my neighbor arrived.
      -A co-worker who said that she voted in the primary for the first time (age 50) so "that we could keep America from being overrun by niggers."

      I sincerely wish that I were exaggerating, but, sadly, I'm not. And considering that my conscience and lack of good sense causes me to almost always rebuke people for this sort of thing, I can only wonder what these people say to each other in private.

      But maybe it's because I live in the Midwest and people are supposedly more racist here, but my many conversations with people in other parts of the country have done nothing to disabuse me of the notion that this is very widespread.

      Great, now I've gone and depressed myself...

    58. Re:People don't learn from history by cowscows · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The republican party does the exact same thing, it's just less honest about it. The democrats will tax you and then do whatever with the money, but at least you see the money coming out of your wallet. The republicans don't tax you, but still do whatever with the money, pretending like it magically grows on trees. Eventually it catches up with you as prices rise and your income doesn't, not to mention the mountains of new debt we're piling up daily. Either party is going to spend your money, but at least the democrats respect your intelligence enough not to lie to you about it.

      The only type of conservatism that currently exists in the republican party is social conservatism, and I'd think that you as a libertarian would have some serious issues with that.

      --

      One time I threw a brick at a duck.

    59. Re:People don't learn from history by bkr1_2k · · Score: 4, Insightful

      So who decides that those "don't deserve"? Not everyone on welfare is on it by choice. Poor families don't want to live in shitty neighborhoods that aren't safe and where their children don't get the same quality education.

      We have no "left" party in the United States. We have a moderate party with vaguely left leanings and a "conservative" party which really isn't much different except with respect to religious beliefs (currently) and a few other social issues. There is no longer (and hasn't been for a long time) a party of small government and "personal responsibility" that advocates not having social programs. If there was such a party they would have fought much harder to abolish Social Security, amongst many other programs. They wouldn't have instituted a "no child left behind" policy that brings the standard down for the whole so that a few can be pushed through the system whether they deserve to be or not.

      Back to your point, "leftism" isn't bad, it's just not based entirely on greed. In fact, leftism, in theory, is getting back to the family unit, and extending that to helping people not directly related. The whole "we're only as strong as our weakest link" thing. It works on a small scale, but is unwieldy on a large scale, which is the real problem.

      --
      "Growing old is inevitable; growing up is optional."
    60. Re:People don't learn from history by bockelboy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Amen. I'm amazed that some Paul observers don't understand basic economics.

      We didn't get off the gold standard/Bretton Woods because someone wanted to scratch an itch or was bored. It COLLAPSED, and would have taken the world economy with it.

      Maybe Paul has a way around it that his supporters haven't been able to explain to me. However, whenever they talk about his policies and I respond "we tried that once, it collapsed", they kind of walk away dumbfounded...

    61. Re:People don't learn from history by zeromentat · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Isn't it amazing how the Republicans manage to label every single candidate that we run as the "most leftist" or "most liberal"? They did it to Al Gore and John Kerry and now they are trying to do it to Senator Obama.

      Al (the world is ending due to global warming) Gore, and John Kerry were two of the "most leftist" senators at the time. Barack, who had not even run for a federal position at the time, did not have a track record. Barack is now one of the most leftist senators in Washington. It's not that the republican keep name-calling, it's that the democrats consistently assume they will win, and name the most left reaching person they can find to take the job. Clinton wasn't called one of the most leftist, but she couldn't win the nomination because she wasn't leftist enough I guess.

      --
      Gotta move .. gotta go!
    62. Re:People don't learn from history by qbzzt · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yes. I wanna help my neighbors

      Do you want to help your neighbors, or do you want to force me help your neighbors?

      That's the difference between private charity, funded by people who want to donate to it, and government welfare, funded by taxes.

      --
      -- Support a free market in the field of government
    63. Re:People don't learn from history by ArcherB · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Leftism is bad because it takes from those who earned and gives to those who don't deserve.

      Uh, that's what the American government is all about. Right or Left, everybody's stealing from one group and giving it to some others, many of whom haven't earned it in any way. On the left you have the welfare system, which gives free money to poor people, and on the right you have super-rich tax breaks and "back room corporate deals", which gives free money to the fabulously wealthy. "Not taking" is not the same as "giving'. I'm not wealthy by any stretch and I got a tax cut. Fortunately, the owners of the company I work for, some of which are wealthy, got a tax cut, which enabled them to hire me! Our customers got a tax cut, which made them be able to afford to hire my company. Our customer's customers got a tax cut which made them be able to give more money to our customers, who in turn, hired us...

      See how economies work?

      --
      There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
    64. Re:People don't learn from history by RocketScientist · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The differences in the primary processes really show how the parties work.

      The republican primaries are about winning states--it's a winner take all for each state. It's a warmup for the election, where it's not a total popular vote that matters, but a state-by-state election. So the person who wins the most big states wins.

      The democratic primaries apportion delegates from each state. Obama won the democratic nomination, but if it was done winner-take-all, as the real election is, he would have lost to Hillary, who did much better in key states like Ohio. Polling numbers also show she did better than Obama in Florida and Michigan, which weren't allowed to seat any/all (didn't follow up on how that turned out) of their delegates.

      And as is typical, the Democrats picked the person who agreed most with their views. The Republicans picked the person who they thought would be the best candidate. So in essence, the Democrats picked nearly the worst possible candidate offered, while the Republicans picked someone who can actually win a general election. The republicans chose someone who, compared to the other candidates, is more of a centrist and has more of a reputation for working cross-party to get things done, while the democrats chose the most polarizing, and almost the most liberal (Kucinich was a candidate, remember) of their options.

      The election itself will be about who can hold and mobilize their base support the best (something the Republicans are very good at, while the Democrats seem to suck at it) and grab the most non-affiliated voters (like me).

      Let's see...I have a choice between an Ivy League lawyer, married to another Ivy League lawyer, who basically thinks I'm a depressed, oppressed, poor, and underprivileged person because I don't live on the east coast or the west coast...

      Or a geniuine war hero married to a woman who owns a beer distributorship.

      Hrm. Yeah.

    65. Re:People don't learn from history by SputnikPanic · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I lean conservative/libertarian (as others in this thread have pointed out, "Republican" and "conservative" are not the same), and I wanted the more moderate McCain to win over Bush in 2000. He didn't, of course, and the rest is rather unfortunate history. I held my nose the last two general elections and gave the Republicans my vote, votes which, particularly over the last two years, I've come to deeply regret. I watched Bush do nothing about Social Security, do nothing about illegal immigration, I watched him spend money like a drunken Democrat, and then of course there is Iraq, which I initially supported until it became clear that the WMDs were about as real as the luminiferous ether. All this is to say that even though McCain was my guy in 2000, the Republicans have made an absolute mess of things, so I too will be voting for Obama this time around. I'll most likely strongly disagree with an Obama administration on some matters of policy, but the Republicans have in my opinion earned their day of reckoning.

    66. Re:People don't learn from history by Steeltalon · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Yeah, he'd like you to believe that but his voting record doesn't synch up with it his rhetoric.

      --
      Regards, Ian
    67. Re:People don't learn from history by zehaeva · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Go Go 2nd Amendment!

      I wonder what Washington and his lot would be labeled if they did the same today as they did in the 1700's. If that happened today would we remember them in 300 years as heroes or terrorists?

    68. Re:People don't learn from history by Cairnarvon · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Leftism is bad because it takes from those who earned and gives to those who don't deserve.

      Thank you for demonstrating once more that libertarianism is about childish selfishness at its base. What magical fairy land do you live in where everyone is born with the exact same opportunities?
      Protip: we are a society, and without that society those who "earned" would have nothing. A society doesn't survive by kicking the less fortunate in the nuts. For every greedy welfare moocher (which I'm guessing you imagine make up the majority of the people on welfare) out there there are a hundred families who have fallen on hard times because the parents' employers care more about profit than about people.

      Government exists to serve and protect the people. All of them. I suggest you get over yourself and get used to it.

    69. Re:People don't learn from history by pdusen · · Score: 4, Informative

      Not giving handouts to those who have little is NOT the same as taking things away from them.

    70. Re:People don't learn from history by wwwgregcom · · Score: 5, Informative

      Take your trolling somewhere else. Obama in no way voted for the Patriot Act. Ever. Like the Iraq war authorization, that vote predated him in the senate. I can't believe someone marked you insightful. Here's proof. http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=107&session=1&vote=00313 He later supported revising it with civil liberties measures.

      --
      What signature defines me as a person?
    71. Re:People don't learn from history by b4upoo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I would not be shocked to see Obama win the presidency with an overwhelming landslide. There is a lot of resentment towards the republican party at this time.
                  Yet if Hillary hangs on it just might be that Obama may suffer from a couple of foot in mouth disasters that could cause the delegates to give Hillary the nomination.
                  As for the race issue I think many whites do not think of Obama as being a black man. Culturally he seems to be white and his skin is not dark. The prejudice against women may well be greater than racial prejudice towards Obama.

    72. Re:People don't learn from history by xaxa · · Score: 3, Interesting

      You should campaign for reform of the electoral system.

      The UK has the same problem -- you can only vote for one party (though there are three main choices, not two). This encourages tactical voting, and minority parties (socialists, nationalists, etc) get ignored. It also means the main parties lose their ideals and converge, so as to appeal to as many people as they can.

      A slightly better system, used in the UK for some things (e.g. Scottish/Welsh/Northern Irish/London Assemblies) is to give two choices. Then people can vote first for their ideal candidate and second for a more mainstream party -- if their first choice doesn't get many votes their second choice counts. But the first choice getting some votes scares the mainstream parties :-D.

      Even better is having many more choices, I think Australia does this.

    73. Re:People don't learn from history by Dog-Cow · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You don't pay for gas?

      Taxes are not the only way Government causes money to move from one entity to another.

    74. Re:People don't learn from history by Vancorps · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If you're a "have not" then you understand the concept of debt and how big a hole the republican party dug fiscally, how do you think we will pay that debt in the future? You can bet on higher taxes or taxes on more goods and services. They took from everyone and spent the money frivolously and continue to do so without remorse. I'll add that a lot of that money left the United States.

      I wish I could say the democrats behaved differently but they don't, they just spent it on different things. I'll grant that democrats tend to spend it on things that actually help domestically though.

      Modern democrats have a much better track record for getting us back into a sane budget and thats really what we need right now.

    75. Re:People don't learn from history by ArcherB · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You don't pay for gas?

      Taxes are not the only way Government causes money to move from one entity to another. Sure, I pay for gas. The tax money that goes with that is used to build and maintain the roads that I drive on. I've seen the people that are working on those roads. They don't look wealthy to me.

      BTW, I would pay less for gas if we were allowed to produce it locally. Tell me, which party is outsourcing our gas and oil production?

      --
      There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
    76. Re:People don't learn from history by timster · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Ah, electoral-vote.com, the same site that predicted 298 electoral votes for Kerry on Nov. 1, 2004.

      http://www.electoral-vote.com/evp2004/nov/nov01.html

      --
      I have seen the future, and it is inconvenient.
    77. Re:People don't learn from history by nickos · · Score: 4, Informative

      there is Iraq, which I initially supported until it became clear that the WMDs were about as real as the luminiferous ether
      It was always clear to most of us in Europe (I was in the UK) that the WMDs were fictional and we were screaming it from the top of our lungs right from the start. For some reason it seems most Americans fell for the lies though. I blame your superficial news media...
    78. Re:People don't learn from history by glgraca · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Maybe leftists simply recognize that you pay one way or the other. You can have less inequality or you have to pay for more policing. You can have a public health service or you can have people who are sick and less productive.

    79. Re:People don't learn from history by Talderas · · Score: 5, Informative

      You're assuming that governments are the only agencies capable of providing welfare, which is simply not true. Many charities and church organizations provide aid for people that need it, and the better part about those organizations is that since they rely on donations, they actually try to help the person get out of the economic situation that he is in, rather than doing nothing and letting the individual slum on the free cheese.

      That's the issue many people have with government welfare programs, they don't provide much incentive for people to get off it.

      Which do you think is better? Donating $50 to a charity that helps the poor, that is more likely to succeed at getting them out of their situations, and being able to write off the $50 for taxes, or not getting that write-off and have the government spend your $50 on people that probably won't ever leave the welfare system?

      --
      "Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
    80. Re:People don't learn from history by Vancorps · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Did someone just say Reaganomics actually works? Are you high? The tax cut did not enable them to hire you, first of all, corporate tax cuts are different than personal income tax cuts.

      In my company they started growing so there was increased demand on IT personnel so necessity forced him to hire me, since then my automation has saved him millions and he's since doubled staff in other parts of the company. See how economies work?

      Taxes are a reality of doing business, if the current tax structure is keeping especially a large corporation from growing then that corporation is already in rough shape given that most cities grant them tax breaks to build in their town.

      Look at the economic stimulus check which didn't do jack because everyone is so in debt that they just spent the $600 or so on gas or food. With inflation the way it is that money doesn't go as far as it would have 8 years ago when gas and food was cheaper.

    81. Re:People don't learn from history by molarmass192 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I agree with you. I think it's a f-ing shame that McCain is being fed to the wolves as the nominee for this election. He's the only non-born-again GOP nominee who (currently) has the potential to get elected. However, the GOP needs a solid cleaning up and a resounding defeat this fall is the only way that's going to happen. They need to purge all the religious zealots, war mongers, and lobbyist puppets and get back to a base of solid fiscal conservancy and international trade. Right now, it's ironic that the Dems offer the best options for the above. I'm voting for Obama, because I expect him to run a tight ship and weaken the grip of lobbyists over DC. Time will tell how right I am, but right now, there's simply no better candidate in my mind's eye.

      --

      Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws-Plato
    82. Re:People don't learn from history by YodaYid · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Meanwhile, all that lost revenue in taxes affected many other people outside your immediate perception. I'm glad the tax cuts helped you personally, but plenty of people have been hurting under the tax breaks.

    83. Re:People don't learn from history by Jaysyn · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yeah, I really can't see him (Obama) fucking things up worse than they already are.

      --
      There is a war going on for your mind.
    84. Re:People don't learn from history by reebmmm · · Score: 5, Insightful

      And you must live in an alternate reality where Democrats understand that the laws of supply and demand regulate gas prices and allow for increased production in addition to increased efficiency to bring the cost of oil down.

      You must live in a reality where everything is black and white. Higher gas prices means fewer gas consumers whilst lower prices brings more consumption. We're witnessing that right now. For envirodems, lower consumption is a GOOD thing not a bad thing.

      Moreover, higher gas prices means that other source of energy that are arguably "better" from a sustainability/environmental perspective but previously unworkable given the price of gasoline become much more appealing.

      Besides, an increase in domestic production would have such a SMALL impact on the overall cost of gasoline and any impact would be fleetingly short lived. The US simply does not have enough oil reserves to make much of a lasting impact.

      Finally, there's a really good argument that we should drain the cheap oil from other places first and keep our oil reserves until a time it actually matters. Using our reserves now would probably not give us a real good return on its value.
    85. Re:People don't learn from history by tbannist · · Score: 4, Insightful

      A very cynical part of me thinks McCain is being set up for failure. It seems like the social conservatives and born again Christians should not rally around McCain unless he's clearly going to win. Instead they're should hang back and let him get crushed by the Democrats. Then they'll use his defeat as proof that the party should have selected a socially conservative born-again candidate. In the end they'll gather more power to themselves and wait for the Democrats to screw up something to feed the attack machine to get back in power.

      In short, if the republicans lose either the religious zealots, warmongers and lobbyist puppets will get purged, or if they have already gathered enough power unto themselves, it will they who are doing the purging. Either way, the republican party is headed for serious trouble if they don't win the next presidential election, which there is every indication that they will not.

      --
      Fanatically anti-fanatical
    86. Re:People don't learn from history by RingDev · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Do you want to be forced to pay pennies of your income to help my neighboors, or do you want them to turn to a life of crime to support themselves and wind up in a prison where you will be forced to pay dollars of your income to support them?

      Public education, social responsibility, and the empowerment of all will help you more significantly than isolating yourself from society.

      I'm not saying we should go all commie or socialist over here, but a balanced struggle between socialist and capitalist (and many other!) points of view in our government is what keeps it healthy. Falling in the trap of a single party (even a dual party like we have now) reduces our government's health.

      -Rick

      --
      "Most people in the U.S. wouldn't know they live in a tyrannical state if it walked up and grabbed their junk." - MyFirs
    87. Re:People don't learn from history by DECS · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Yeah just wait until the bill on that Iraq invasion comes due.

      And how much were you paying for gas 8 years ago?

    88. Re:People don't learn from history by RocketScientist · · Score: 2, Informative

      Kucinich is much more liberal than Obama. The only good thing that came out of the primary process was eliminating him. Otherwise, I think the democrats picked the least electable candidate out of the bunch they had left. Obama won more delegates, but the only states he won by a large margin are traditionally democratic states anyway, and the states that Hillary won are the battleground must-win states for Democrats in the general election. You know, all the flyover states that Obama wrote off to his friends in San Francisco a few weeks back.

    89. Re:People don't learn from history by AmaDaden · · Score: 4, Interesting

      http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/08/washington/08tax.html The point is not that you payed less, it's that your bosses who make SOOOO much more payed SOOOO much less. That money could have been used to pay off the debts we are getting in to that I as a 23 year old have to worry about or it could have been used to keep watch over the banks so they would have not broken the broken laws and fucked over the economy with the housing market. Tax cuts and small govt are a good thing, but what Bush did was irresponsible and stupid. I expect that Obama will cut your taxes even more but raise the PERSONAL taxes of your bosses far higher then what they were.

    90. Re:People don't learn from history by twistedsymphony · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I couldn't agree more... though I always though it would be interesting if say 50% of my tax dollars I was able to distribute to charities as I see fit. let the government continue to control the other half to fill in the gaps. Make the charity selection process part of the tax filing process.

      I think we'd see a lot of special interest programs drop of the map because they'd would have to convince the citizens that it's a worthy program as opposed to lobbying government officials. Not to mention I think it would make a lot of people feel like their taxes where actually doing something/going to a good cause as opposed to simply being "taken" by the government for whatever.

    91. Re:People don't learn from history by bkr1_2k · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That's an excellent point. I don't, however, want to leave social welfare up to the religious folks. I'm not saying all private charities are run by religious folks, just that I don't donate to charities run by churches or church groups. As a result my outlets are much more limited. I do donate both money and time to charities that I think are beneficial, but I don't have a lot of either to donate. If part of my taxes go to donating more than I can directly, I'm all for it.

      I think we need to better implement the programs we put in place. I'd love to find a solution to that particular problem, but I've certainly never seen a way to do it on a large scale. I think that would also help alleviate the incentive issue you point out.

      --
      "Growing old is inevitable; growing up is optional."
    92. Re:People don't learn from history by stuntpope · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Government exists to serve and protect the people. All of them. I suggest you get over yourself and get used to it. With the consent of the governed.

      And the prevailing view of the governed in the USA is more along the lines of the poster you replied to. So I guess the governed need to get over themselves and get used to whatever the government decrees and takes.

      I actually am in line with your sympathetic nature, but conservatives could easily counter that the proper avenue of assisting society's less fortunate is through voluntary charity, not government-enforced redistribution.
    93. Re:People don't learn from history by Cairnarvon · · Score: 2, Funny

      I don't think Chelsea is even running.

    94. Re:People don't learn from history by nickos · · Score: 4, Informative

      Because the British government ignored the wishes of it's citizens. Anyway, the government knew it was all nonsense too - remember the "Dodgy Dossier"?

    95. Re:People don't learn from history by Zebraheaded · · Score: 3, Funny

      Is Hilary Duff the other?

    96. Re:People don't learn from history by tbannist · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Also you should be aware that Obama's campaign was not financed in the same way that most other campaigns are. He drew the majority of his money from small donations much like the Dean campaign did. He's so far avoided huge donations from political lobby groups, and thus owes relatively few favors to the typical moochers in Washington.

      --
      Fanatically anti-fanatical
    97. Re:People don't learn from history by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Hrmmmm,

      In some ways... Yes. Sometimes personal belief has to fall to populism, sometimes not. That's the job of the politician, when to wager that the populace hasn't gotten the bigger picture on an issue.

      Concerning honesty and above the table deals... McCain is on the very short list of Senators that have not tried to earmarked funds to buy their constituency. Funds that were spent on things like a bridge to nowhere. That list does not include Clinton or Obama.

    98. Re:People don't learn from history by Anonymous+Meoward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Thank you! The whole argument for supplanting a welfare system with a series of charities (religious or otherwise) is bogus because of one of the points you made. Specifically, the latter model can't scale to meet demand.

      I'm not saying our welfare system is great (is isn't), and it wasn't so wonderful when I was actually on it as a wee lad. But I fail to see who a properly administered and funded program can be outstripped by bakes sales at Our Lady of Perpetual Motion.

      --
      --- The American Way of Life is not a birthright. Hell, it's not even sustainable.
    99. Re:People don't learn from history by XPACT · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And why do you think that Obama will be any different?

    100. Re:People don't learn from history by malilo · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You've got to be kidding me. This is the #1 reason that I can't really be a libertarian. Altruism and having people "take care of the poor" on their own time is a fantastic idea, except that it DOESN'T WORK. Human Beings are assholes, and most would as soon kick a guy in the gutter before giving him a dollar, much less pick him up and help him find a job. Just admit that you don't give jack sh*t about people who through luck or mental illness are in a bad situation.

      If you quit the welfare program tomorrow I guarantee you crime would rise through the roof and local charities wouldn't be able to do anything more than they already do. How do I know? Because I volunteer all the time, and most charities (especially for the homeless and battered women shelters) are full to the TILT every day, and have to turn away people. It really is sad.

      --
      "sometimes he felt that his whole life was a dream, and he wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it."
    101. Re:People don't learn from history by RingDev · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Correction: McCain WAS the most anti-torture candidate. Until he had the oppertunity to vote against allowing the CIA to use "harsh interrogation techniques" that meet the UN's definition of torture. At which point he toed the party line, and voted to allow the CIA to waterboard and use other combinations of intense questioning methods.

      And that is McCain's weak spot. He spent the late 90's and early 2000's building up a GREAT maveric image, heck, John Kerry talked to him about a VP seat in the 2004 election! But since then, McCain has flip flopped on almost every stance he took out of line with the Republican party. Campaign finance reform, Gay marrage, Torture, even the war he has been pretty fishie on.

      John McCain from 1999 would have been a great option instead of Bush. John McCain from 2003 would have been a great option instead of Bush. But at this point, he is so manipulated and has gone back on so many of his 'maveric' stances, that he's losing the independant voters and me along with them.

      -Rick

      --
      "Most people in the U.S. wouldn't know they live in a tyrannical state if it walked up and grabbed their junk." - MyFirs
    102. Re:People don't learn from history by Mister+Whirly · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "Yet if Hillary hangs on it just might be that Obama may suffer from a couple of foot in mouth disasters that could cause the delegates to give Hillary the nomination."

      Umm, you do realize that this entire article is about Obama WINNING the nomination right? That means Hillary can't get the nomination, or in other words, SHE LOST. So unless she has some real Karl Rovian counting tricks up her sleeve, it is over for HRC.

      And yes, many people don't think of Obama as black, because he isn't. He is half white and half black - and a whole to neither. So all you "Obama hates all white people" folks out there, do you honestly believe he hates his mother and half of himself?? And the "prejudice against women" crap was drummed up by Hillary's camp to guarantee her the female vote. Nothing to see here, move along. I was waiting to see when Hillary would launch her own "Swift Boat" campaign against Obama. Maybe she sold that spot to the Republicans for McCain to use against him later...

      --
      "But this one goes to 11!"
    103. Re:People don't learn from history by RocketScientist · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Michigan and Ohio are bleeding jobs like crazy. They have the highest state-level corporate taxes and the most restrictions on employers with respect to hiring and firing. Michigan is one of 2 states that actually *lost* population from one census to the next. People are actively fleeing there. There just aren't any jobs, at any level.

      Missouri and Kansas, where I live, are growing, due to a lower tax structure and fewer restrictions on employers.

      Ireland has the lowest corporate taxes in the EU, and also has one of the fastest growth rates.

      You're right that corporate taxes are a reality of doing business. And they're a reality of doing business...somewhere else too.

    104. Re:People don't learn from history by junglee_iitk · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I am eagerly waiting for McCain to win. Really. Jindal is a sellout, like most of republicans. Converting to Christianity should warn any sane person how ambitious he is to do such phony act. But well, for the rest of the world it is actually a good thing that USA goes down - too long the big brother has watched and intervened rest of the world.

    105. Re:People don't learn from history by XPACT · · Score: 2, Informative

      He started the War in Serbia.

    106. Re:People don't learn from history by pirhana · · Score: 3, Interesting

      > And why do you think that Obama will be any different?

      First I didn't say that Obama will be different. What I said is Obama won because he projected himself as something different. And, his past actions do support this to a great extend. Again , Iraq is the best example. From day one he was against it while Hillary and most of the other leaders were supporting it. So there is reason to believe that he would be different.

    107. Re:People don't learn from history by cashman73 · · Score: 2, Insightful
      As for the race issue I think many whites do not think of Obama as being a black man. Culturally he seems to be white and his skin is not dark. The prejudice against women may well be greater than racial prejudice towards Obama.

      Well, there's also that little detail about his mother being white herself,... ;-)

    108. Re:People don't learn from history by Mister+Whirly · · Score: 5, Funny

      I know. If the price of gas gets any more expensive, rappers are going to start drinking it!

      --
      "But this one goes to 11!"
    109. Re:People don't learn from history by halivar · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Iraq was about oil from day zero, and only die-hard idiots ever thought or think otherwise.
      Oh, really? Where are the mega-bucks coming from our new oil colony? Where's our massive new oil supply? Why are we still so concerned with OPEC decisions?

      The money from Iraq's oil production goes to the provisional government, not to the US. The facts do not square with your theory.
    110. Re:People don't learn from history by cromar · · Score: 5, Informative

      Do some research on welfare (AFDC). ~55% of people on welfare in the US are off of it in less than 2 years: 20% are on welfare for less than 7 months. 15% are out in 7 to 12 months. 19% are off in 1 to 2 years.

      That leaves 27% who are on it for 2 to 5 years, and only 20% who are on it over 5 years. The debates about this shit are so far divorced from reality anymore it is driving me crazy. THE US DOES NOT HAVE A WELFARE PROBLEM. For the most part it is working exactly as it should - helping people to become self-reliant.

    111. Re:People don't learn from history by Sobrique · · Score: 5, Interesting
      2 trillion is a lot of money: http://www.thestar.com/columnists/article/295870

      Consider that, according to sources like Columbia's Jeffrey Sachs, the Worldwatch Institute, and the United Nations, with that same money the world could: Eliminate extreme poverty around the world (cost $135 billion in the first year, rising to $195 billion by 2015.) Achieve universal literacy (cost $5 billion a year.) Immunize every child in the world against deadly diseases (cost $1.3 billion a year.)
      That my friends, is a hell of an opportunity cost.
    112. Re:People don't learn from history by cwingrav · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Keep preaching... time and patience... don't get depressed.

    113. Re:People don't learn from history by digitrev · · Score: 2, Informative

      You should take a look at Canada. Four parties in Parliament with the Conservative Party forming a minority government. The Conservatives are the "right-wing" party, and the Liberals the "left-wing" party. Of course, the two are so similar on most things that they're nigh indistinguishable. Those are the two main parties, and the only ones with any chance at forming the government. Then we have the NDP, which is the true left wing party. They'll support just about anything socialist, and are heavily supported by unions such as CAW and CUPE. And filling out the roster is the Bloc Quebecois. The Quebec only party that runs on a platform of do what's best for Quebec. I've heard from people I live with in Ottawa that if the Bloc ran outside Quebec, they'd for them, just to get rid of the major parties. Of course, we also have the sporadic groups, such as the Green Party, who run in all ridings but never get elected, and the rest of the parties, such as Libertarian, Marxist, Communist, Marijuana, Fascist, and my personal favourite, the neorhino party. You can find the rest here.

      Of course, we only get one vote, and whoever has the plurality of vote gets the seat in a riding, and whoever gets the plurality of seats gets the government. If they don't get a majority of seats, it's a minority, which tends to be unstable, though the current one isn't. If they get the majority of seats....well, that just means it's 4 years of one party doing whatever the want (more or less).

      --
      Cynical Idealist
    114. Re:People don't learn from history by Mr_Perl · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Those tax cuts combined with deficit spending means you just enjoyed the theft of resources from future generations as well as the future you. That's how economies really work, there's no free lunch, just deferred debt.

      Most Americans however can't see past the upcoming quarter evidently.

      --

      My poetry site welcomes the unusual.
    115. Re:People don't learn from history by Foobar+of+Borg · · Score: 2, Insightful

      to vote for the most leftist presidential candidate from a major party EVER?
      Wait a minute, I thought it was John Kerry who was the most leftist presidential candidate from a major party ever. Oh, wait a minute, that was Al Gore. No, wait a minute, it was Bill Clinton. Seriously, why do you Repugs always bring out such asinine and demonstrably false crap *every* *single* *election* and somehow think no one will notice?
    116. Re:People don't learn from history by TheBig1 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      After living in NC for a couple of years (I am born and raised Canadian, and living back here in the Canadian west for the past 6 years or so), I am sad to report that the east / south is just as racist as the midwest, if not more so. Now, granted, I was living in a small-ish town, and I assume that the bigger cities are a bit better, but it is still very sad how stupid people can be.

    117. Re:People don't learn from history by tbannist · · Score: 4, Informative

      Unfortunately, as the previous poster indicated, McCain's views on what is and is not torture and what is and is not America have proven to be flexible when his party put pressure on him.

      --
      Fanatically anti-fanatical
    118. Re:People don't learn from history by kdemetter · · Score: 5, Insightful

      you must live in an alternate reality where the republican party stands for saner government and a balanced budget.

      what's the price of gas over there? And you must live in an alternate reality where Democrats understand that the laws of supply and demand regulate gas prices and allow for increased production in addition to increased efficiency to bring the cost of oil down.

      In the real world that I live in, I've heard Republicans screaming for increased domestic production and Democrats screaming, "NO!" Well , i'll tell you this . It doesn't matter whether it's democrat or republican . The result for the American people matters . So make a choice based on what changes you want , rather than on something as relative as a political position.

      At least you have the ability to vote for it. I don't live in the US , so i can't vote for it.
      Yet the consequences are for the entire world.
    119. Re:People don't learn from history by tbannist · · Score: 3, Insightful

      He had the moral ground, then he gave it away by backing down on waterboarding.
      http://thinkprogress.org/2008/02/13/mccain-waterboarding-fail/

      He voted against the ban on waterboarding.

      --
      Fanatically anti-fanatical
    120. Re:People don't learn from history by mwlewis · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Except for the lobbyists that he likes, right? Like teachers unions and farm lobbies and trial lawyers?

      --
      JOIN US FOR PONG!
    121. Re:People don't learn from history by Tanktalus · · Score: 2, Funny

      So all you "Obama hates all white people" folks out there, do you honestly believe he hates his mother and half of himself??

      Seems plausible to me - I can think of someone else who hates half of himself...

      (For the humour-impaired: just because I think it's plausible doesn't mean I necessarily believe it to be true.)

    122. Re:People don't learn from history by Foobar+of+Borg · · Score: 4, Funny

      I know. If the price of gas gets any more expensive, rappers are going to start drinking it!
      You know, that's probably the best argument FOR rising gas prices I've ever seen. Now, if we can just get the country music scene on board. I'd like to see Billy Ray Cyrus chugging a fifth of 100 octane gas (the kind used in NASCAR that gets sold all around the Charlotte, NC metro area during the Holy Days of NASCAR).
    123. Re:People don't learn from history by CrashPoint · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Ordinarily I'd completely agree with this sentiment. Unfortunately this sentiment divides us right now when we need to take a stand against pretty much everything that's happening right now. Once we come back from the brink of insanity we can act more directly on our principles and vote accordingly.

      This is what gets said at every single election.

      "We can do the right thing later, right now all that matters is that The Other Guy MUST LOSE AT ALL COSTS!"

      This, far more than any "spoiler" candidates, is what gets bad presidents elected.

    124. Re:People don't learn from history by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      And intelligent people could counter that relying on voluntary charity is inefficient and tends to fund things based on emotional appeal rather than actual need (Worry more about giving dying aids children with cancer a chance to ride a pony than actually funding research into a cure).

    125. Re:People don't learn from history by AshtangiMan · · Score: 2, Informative

      Interesting but wrong. Obama has not won . . . he has claimed victory. The winner is either announced when one is picked officially at the convention, or when all but one of the candidates steps down. Neither of those things has occurred yet. Note that I am for Obama, and in the event that Hillary wins I will probably just vote for Ron Paul, as in the end I believe that most of the things the feds are into these days they should be leaving to the state and regional governments.

    126. Re:People don't learn from history by cowscows · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Well if that's the case, then maybe the powers that be should've considered that maybe destroying a country and then trying to rebuild it isn't such a good idea if you're going to be utterly reliant on a single profit-driven corporation to actually have any hope of getting the work done.

      If Iraq is as important as the government claims it is, then shouldn't they be quite concerned that our national security is basically in the hands of this one company, because without them it's hopeless?

      --

      One time I threw a brick at a duck.

    127. Re:People don't learn from history by winwar · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "Umm, you do realize that this entire article is about Obama WINNING the nomination right? That means Hillary can't get the nomination, or in other words, SHE LOST."

      Obama is the presumptive nominee. Until the delegates at the Democrat convention ratify that Obama is their nominee, he hasn't won anything. Not that anyone seriously believes he won't get it of course.

    128. Re:People don't learn from history by BigRob7 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It doesn't matter if everyone is born with the same opportunities. I was born poor to a couple of crackhead parents. I went off on my own at 16 years old and did what I had to do. I'm sick of people saying 'ooh I was born into this ghetto and I can't get out there are no opportunities.' Cry me a river. Get yourself a pair and get out of that environment. I've worked at pizza places, temp jobs, telemarketing, and other jobs that most poor people won't even take because 'it doesn't pay me enough'. How can you justify handouts that are taken by force from the rich when most of the poor people I know won't even take a crap job? I've slept in cars, under bridges, on the el train, buses, you name it. I finally managed to land a full time job and buy a car after years of hard work. Childish selfishness? No, I call it the inability to comprehend why people can't pull themselves up by their bootstraps and thake care of themselves. Everybody wants something for nothing. In Libertarianism, there is no such thing as a free lunch. What, exactly, is wrong with that?

    129. Re:People don't learn from history by twiddlingbits · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Obama owes his political existance to the lobbies and power brokers in Chicago and of the Democratic Party. He may SAY he'll get rid of them if he thinks it'll win your vote but he won't, he can't, they own him. As for housecleaning, the Democrats should get rid of the Socialists, Envrio-Radicals, and Hollywood liberals if they want to clean up their party. Sad fact of politics is that NEITHER party is really in touch with the general populace.

    130. Re:People don't learn from history by CohibaVancouver · · Score: 4, Insightful
      that makes a huge difference in the national deficit.

      As an outsider looking in (I live in Canada), I'm amazed at how little the American media seems to discuss the issue of the federal and state deficits, and the national debt.

      I would argue that perhaps the media considers it a 'complicated issue' but it shouldn't be - All you need to do is draw analogies to credit cards or mortgages and most people would 'get it'. In my opinon, the fact that the American nation-state is willing to simply offload their spending upon the nation's children is criminal. You guys need to either a) accept that the kind of spending you demand from your government(s) needs to be funded from somewhere and accept higher taxes or b) accept that spending needs to be deeply cut. You can't have it both ways.

    131. Re:People don't learn from history by MCZapf · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Ever heard of preparing for the future? Quality of life could well be worse if a true oil shortage occurs and we haven't prepared for it. We won't prepare for it if our leaders keep enabling our addiction to oil. Heaven forbid we Americans make gradual adjustments now to avoid large ones later.

    132. Re:People don't learn from history by penguin_dance · · Score: 3, Informative

      Not giving handouts to those who have little is NOT the same as taking things away from them.

      Oh somebody mod this simple statement up. They get it. That's part of the problem in Washington--a reduction in the increase in spending on something is called a CUT.

      It's like planning to buy a $45,000 vehicle and then claiming I cut spending by buying a $35,000 vehicle. Nevermind the fact that I've increased my spend $35,000....

      --
      If you've never been modded as "flamebait" or "troll," you've never tried to argue a minority viewpoint here!
    133. Re:People don't learn from history by Mr_Perl · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Without tax revenue, the bills from the excessive spending of the Bush administration cannot be paid . This is deferred debt. This is why tax cuts were irresponsible and not appropriate.

      Everybody agrees that we should cut spending (on things that don't benefit them directly usually), but it's my view that we should spend only money that we have. That's how I manage myself and it keeps me happy and those who deal fairly with me happy.

      Ever since the rabid warmongering of the paranoid years of Truman we've been digging this deficit hole and it's got to a point where we'll never get out, we'll just collapse one day because everybody's just too short sighted.

      --

      My poetry site welcomes the unusual.
    134. Re:People don't learn from history by Vancorps · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Actually the Democrats were the ones to pass a balanced budget under Clinton. With the Republicans in control they got us into a very expensive war we can't possibly pay for. What do you think is going to happen with all that debt? You don't think that's going to force someone, probably a democrat to raise taxes to get us back to some form of fiscal responsibility? Let us also not forget that under Bush the whole department of homeland security was created making government even bigger and costing us even more money so I fail to see how your statement has any modern relevance from that last 20 years.

      Prior to Reagan you would have had a point.

    135. Re:People don't learn from history by Muad'Dave · · Score: 4, Interesting
      It would be cheaper to give every household $MINIMUM_WAGE * $WORK_HOURS_PER_YEAR dollars every single year tax free than administer all of the programs they have now. From the 2008 budget:


      $608 billion (+4.5%) - Social Security
      $386 billion (+5.2%) - Medicare
      $209 billion (+5.6%) - Medicaid and the State Children's Health Insurance Program (SCHIP)
      $324 billion (+1.8%) - Unemployment/Welfare/Other mandatory spending
      $69.3 billion (+0.3%) - Health and Human Services

      These add up to nearly $1.6 TRILLION DOLLARS!!! The current Population Clock puts the US population at 304,249,871, and the 2000 Census figures report 105,480,101 households. Doing the math, that's $15,168 dollars per year per household. The 2007 poverty level statistics show that $15,168/yr would exceed the poverty level for many family situations WITHOUT ANYONE IN THE HOUSEHOLD HAVING TO WORK A SINGLE HOUR. It also happens to exceed working all 2080 work hours per week at minimum wage BY $3000/year! ($5.85 * 2080 = $12,168).

      --
      Tiller's Rule: Never use a word in written form that you've only heard and never read. You will end up looking foolish.
    136. Re:People don't learn from history by DECS · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Invading Iraq wasn't an effort to obtain free oil for America, it was an effort to stop Saddam Hussein from dumping his oil on the market and lowering prices (and profits) for OPEC aligned oil producers.

      It also intended to destroy Iraq's infrastructure and then rebuild it using Bush/Cheney linked contractors paid for by Iraq's oil (oil that would not hit the market and lower prices).

      Gas is now approaching $5 per gallon: mission accomplished!

      Did you really think an oil man, albeit a failed one, was trying to obtain a new oil source to provide US consumers with lower prices? He profits from selling oil, and profits more from selling oil at higher prices.

      Invading Iraq wasn't about creating an oil colony, it was about empowering Bush's oil partners, including the Saudi bin Ladens who benefitted so much from pulling rival oil from Iraq (a rival secular state that didn't practice the same form of Islam) off the market.

      It also wasn't about containing radical Islam. Bush converted Iraq from a secular state that was an enemy of Saudi terrorists into a radically fire breathing terrorist training camp with groups that are now supportive of Al Qaeda and/or ready to plot their own attacks on the US and any foreigners in the area.

      Again, Mission Accomplished! The world is now safer for Bush/Saudi oil profits, Cheney's military contractors, fundamentalist terrorists, US police state fascism, and higher energy costs are helping to subsidize everything.

    137. Re:People don't learn from history by Deadplant · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Mcain's words are anti-torture. his actions are pro-torture.
      The worst part is that I honestly believe that he IS strongly opposed to torture. This means that he is willing to compromise his values for political gain.

    138. Re:People don't learn from history by ssstraub · · Score: 5, Informative

      Easy, but not a good example. Halliburton, or more to the point, Kellogg, Brown & Root, is the only company in the US that can handle what needs to be done in Iraq. Ever wonder why no other company has sued the government over the Iraqi contracts? Because no one else can do the job. Sorry, try again.
      Looks like the Republican talking heads got you on that one hook, line, and sinker! Have you ever researched this preposterous claim for yourself?

      And I quote:
      "Despite claims in 2003 that Halliburton is the 'only company' that can handle the Pentagon's logistics work in Iraq, today's Post quotes a consultant for the company as saying, 'You're really asking too much of one firm to be able to manage all of this.' Other companies expected to bid for the contract later this year include Lockheed-Martin Corp. and Northrop-Grumman Corp."

      Perhaps you haven't heard of Bunnatine Greenhouse?
      "She testified before Congress that the contracts awarded to one of these subsidiaries, KBR, represented the "most blatant and improper contract abuse" that she had witnessed during her 20 year tenure working for the government."

      The new LOGCAP 4 government contract is expected to have "robust competition" and be awarded to no less than three separate companies.

      Seems pretty obvious after some simple research that KBR isn't the only company that can handle the job in Iraq.
    139. Re:People don't learn from history by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Right, the world would be so much better if Saddam Hussein was still in power. /s Well, we can be pretty sure that less American soldiers and by far less Iraqis would have died in the last 5 years.
      There is also a good chance that Iran would not feel like they must have nukes in order be safe from invasion by the USA.

      So yeah, the world would probably be much better if Saddam were still in power.
      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    140. Re:People don't learn from history by The+Moof · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Thank you for demonstrating once more that politics is about childish selfishness at its base.
      Fixed that for you.
    141. Re:People don't learn from history by Straif · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Obama's entire adult life has been spent in service to shaping his political career.

      From his very colorful list of friends (which include admitted terrorists, blatant racists, and corporate criminals) to his generally refuseal to take any leading stand on any divisive issue (he has a strong record of voting "present" in the Ill. legislature) he has made almost every decision based on furthering his political life.

      I'm not saying he necessarily agrees with everything Rezco, Wright, Pleger or Ayers say and do, but many of his backers share enough of their values that his association with them was pretty much a prerequsite to his political run in Chicago and he made it quite clear he was more than willing to follow along as long as it was politically useful.

      And like any good politician, every time he is caught it is someone elses fault. Such as the Wright fiasco where first, it was the reporters nitpicking selective events, and he was never there. Then when it was revealed that this was not an isolated event but a long history of racist preaching (including the very sermon he took as the title of his book) he began to point at anyone around him to take the blame, including the grandmother who raised him.

      All I know is Obama's bus needs some servicing because will all the people he's thrown under it to help further his political goals, the suspension must be shot.

      --
      Of course that's just my opinion...... you could be wrong!
    142. Re:People don't learn from history by AndersOSU · · Score: 2, Insightful

      To get to (most) republicans, all Obama has to do is ask, (a) how's the economy working out for you, and (b)did George W Bush make us safer from terrorists?

    143. Re:People don't learn from history by thelexx · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Check out 'individualism' and 'collectivism' on wikipedia. Which one is more in line with the founding principles of the US? Which one is better described by libertarian thought? "Childish selfishness" indeed. Your condescending tone and lack of tact or understanding clearly indicate it is you that needs to learn and grow a bit.

      --
      "Gold still represents the ultimate form of payment in the world." - Alan Greenspan, 1999
    144. Re:People don't learn from history by treeves · · Score: 2, Informative

      and if they're smart they'll answer (1) *irrelevant - the POTUS doesn't control the economy, and (2) Yes.

      *but other than energy costs, not too bad, and energy would cost less if federal laws and regulations didn't prevent more production here in the USA.

      --
      ...the future crusty old bastards are already drinking the Kool-Aid.
    145. Re:People don't learn from history by letherial · · Score: 2, Insightful

      however sad this is, i will agree with you in this. The intelligence and the narrow mind of this country scares me to raise my child here, unfortunatly, with the economy the way it is, i have no choice but to live here yes i would move to another country if i could. The reason is because i am starting to despise the culture that this country has become, I feel like its a bad example to my son. land of the blind, home of the stupid should be our new modo.

    146. Re:People don't learn from history by SoTerrified · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The differences in the primary processes really show how the parties work. So you're saying the Republicans select the person who can most likely get elected, while the Democrats pick the person who will actually do the best job. Speaking as someone who is not American, I've always wondered how the heck Bush got elected. Now it kinda makes sense...
    147. Re:People don't learn from history by AndersOSU · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well if they answer the second question yes, they're not paying attention. If they answer that that the president doesn't influence the economy, it makes me wonder why they eat up, and regurgitate Reagan's (failed) economic policies. I also think they're a tad delusional if they don't think the president can use his bully pulpit to make major changes to the economy - see Hover and FDR.

      If you vote Republican you're either in the top 2% income bracket or voting against your economic self interest. Even if you're ok voting against your economic self interest - and some are - you'd probably be pretty pissed that the republicans nationally haven't delivered on your social issue of choice.

    148. Re:People don't learn from history by ChrisMaple · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The idea that any finite amount of money could "Eliminate extreme poverty around the world" is a fraud and nothing else. Bad governments in the poorest countries will steal all the money and use it to strengthen the government and enrich the leaders. In relatively rich countries, most extreme poverty is due to personal waste and sloth, and no amount of money can fix that either.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    149. Re:People don't learn from history by Clovis42 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      it's my view that we should spend only money that we have. That's how I manage myself and it keeps me happy and those who deal fairly with me happy.
      You're not a homeowner then? Drowning myself in $140,000 of debt has been the best economic decision of my life. In 3 years the debt will be paid off. I'm not selling this year, or any time soon, so my investment will increase in value. I'm not even sure what I'm gonna' do with the money that I won't be paying in rent from the on.

      Home ownership can't be directly compared to the national debt, but it is obviously worthwhile to go into debt sometimes. I think the Bush tax cuts were a good idea that probably had some small effect in helping the economy. The Bush spending has been a problem though. He should have learned to use the veto pen much earlier in the administration.
      --
      Clovis
      ^ Clovis, look! It's that guy you are!
    150. Re:People don't learn from history by normal_guy · · Score: 2, Informative

      Russ Feingold is the only person who voted against the Patriot act every time.

      --

      Linux: Free if your time is worthless.
    151. Re:People don't learn from history by ChrisMaple · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You make a nice point about the futility and waste of government programs. However, using static analysis to imply that there would be an advantage to just giving $15168/yr to each household is an error. Many of those people, and many not far above that income level, would just stop working. The economy would lose the value of their production, effectively making everyone poorer by that fraction of the the economy which that much money represents.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    152. Re:People don't learn from history by niktemadur · · Score: 2, Insightful

      They need to purge all the religious zealots, war mongers, and lobbyist puppets.

      Zealots and mongers are damaged people who live and die by irrational ideology, but lobbyists are looking for practical gain, and may possibly be the least difficult to emasculate under the current circumstances. Let me explain:

      Corporate money has such a powerful influence in Washington because their contribution money is essential for the way general election campaigns are run - concentrate the money on a few key states, such as Ohio and Florida, possibly tinker with the Diebolds and Sequoias, and voilá, you have the corporate kingmaker, and the return of investment is always massive. They have the game, under the current techniques, by the balls. Rinse and repeat, over and over again, every few years.

      If Obama pulls a few surprises with his current strategy, a well organized grass-roots movement in all fifty states, the risk/return of investment for corporations will become too lopsided. Sure, they'll finance Florida and Ohio with a nod and a wink, but twenty or thirty other states, with no clear outcome? Yes, lobbyists will still be in Washington like a swarm of flies, but no, they won't be the anointers of elected politicians. As a result, their influence diminishes. (The pessimistic retort - until they figure out a way to exploit and manipulate the new paradigm).

      The pipe dream is for the Electoral College to be dissolved. Here's a novel idea - the person elected president should do it by the majority of the popular vote, period!

      --
      Lil' Thindime, lilting a lacrimose lament, krashes the kwaint konfines of Kokonino Kounty
    153. Re:People don't learn from history by MightyYar · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Then you'll really hate me. I consider myself a Republican, but since I live in NYC registered Democrat since there aren't any Republicans here. I do like to actually participate in primaries, thank you.

      As for your assertion that Republicans somehow "stand for" something... well, that's where I'm becoming somewhat disenchanted.

      Republicans are supposed to be the party of Lincoln, yet it seems like the racists have flocked to it for some reason. That is troubling.

      Republicans are supposed to be the party of smaller government, yet with all three branches of government firmly under Republican control, they somehow managed to EXPAND government as the politicians ran around like unsupervised kids in a candy store. That is troubling.

      Along the same lines, I also strongly object to the Republicans' tendency to expand government into nanny roles.

      All that being said, the Democrats aren't one shred better - but they really haven't been any worse, either.

      But I'm curious as to what you think makes Barak so leftist? He and McCain differ very little on any major issue. Even health care is not so different, with McCain subsidizing health care through tax credits (and eliminating the tax writeoff) vs. Obama keeping the current system but increasing taxes on employers that don't offer health benefits. Both systems are a marginal expansion of government, and Barak's proposal is slightly more limited than Hillary's.

      I think the two major parties are far more similar than you have been led to believe, except on issues that really don't matter to the well-being of the country - like gay marriage or abortion. So-called "wedge issues" that get people lined up behind a candidate so they don't have to address anything important.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    154. Re:People don't learn from history by niktemadur · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Democrats should get rid of the Socialists, Enviro-Radicals, and Hollywood liberals if they want to clean up their party.

      Sure, why not. The Radicals and the Sharon Stones are few and noisy. But which Socialists? Where are they? Last time I checked, Labor Unions were cut off at the knees. If anything, corporate capitalism is unhinged.

      Take a look at many of Richard Nixon's domestic accomplishments during his presidency, he seems positively pinko even by today's Democrat standards. The shift to the right has been so massive in the United States that even right-leaning moderates (such as HRC) are regarded by the "general populace" (the proverbial "boiling frogs") as pseudo-socialists, and with each right-wing "victory", the "pinko bar" shifts along ever further in their eyes, until they're decrying reds in their beds for the most absurdly microscopic details, even as they ignore the fact that their children are blissfully sucking on Chinese toys with lead paint, which BTW entered the United States unimpeded and unchecked, all for the sake of (all together now:) Capitalism.

      --
      Lil' Thindime, lilting a lacrimose lament, krashes the kwaint konfines of Kokonino Kounty
    155. Re:People don't learn from history by slimjim8094 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Bullshit. Our government exists with the consent of the MAJORITY

      If all those poor people who benefit and are able to get a leg-up once and a while to be slightly more on-par with an average self-sufficient person, went up against a rich bastard who's pissed because a fraction of his money went to help him, you would lose.

      Executive version: Pissed multitudes > rich tightwads. Usually bloodily so.

      --
      I have developed a truly marvelous proof of this comment, which this signature is too narrow to contain.
    156. Re:People don't learn from history by Muad'Dave · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Excellent point - I'll have to think about that, but my gut feeling is that you're correct. Is the loss of the value of their production greater than the savings garnered by reducing the federal government's bloat?


      I would rather have a single program such as this 'safety net' that was fair and across the board and take the hit on productivity than continue to fund an endless stream of hare-brained, feel-good programs that just waste money.

      --
      Tiller's Rule: Never use a word in written form that you've only heard and never read. You will end up looking foolish.
  2. Spelling? by zygotic+mitosis · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Hasn't this guy been in the news enough for the last two years? Can't we get his name right yet?

    1. Re:Spelling? by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 5, Funny

      Right. It's O'Bama. He's Irish. :-P

    2. Re:Spelling? by zygotic+mitosis · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The summary is still misspelled. Great effort, though, editors.

  3. People don't seem to learn from reading, either. by gardyloo · · Score: 2, Informative

    It's Barack.

  4. ...but Hillary still won't leave. by TripMaster+Monkey · · Score: 5, Informative

    First of all, I'm not sure why this is "news for nerds", but I'll readily concede that it is "stuff that matters".

    Obama may have the nomination, but someone really ought to tell Hillary. Last night, during her non-concession speech, she stated that she's "making no decisions tonight". Today I heard on NPR that she is "open to the Vice-Presidential spot", even though she may not take it...she "just wants to be considered".

    Sweet Zombie Jesus...what will it take to make this woman go away???

    --
    ____

    ~ |rip/\/\aster /\/\onkey

    1. Re:...but Hillary still won't leave. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      A Zombie Jesus perhaps?

    2. Re:...but Hillary still won't leave. by glgraca · · Score: 5, Funny

      I can picture her in a press conference concurrent to Obama's inauguration saying "I'm not making any decisions tonight; I still have a few cards to play".

    3. Re:...but Hillary still won't leave. by wass · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Well, the interesting thing is that in no primary in the US history has the outcome ever been so close. Obama has certainly won the primary, but just barely.

      The party is truly split between the two candidates, and for the Obama team to take a small winning margin and run all the way to the general election while ignoring Hillary and keeping her out of the team, it will majorly turn off roughly half of the Democratic Party. The Obama team just wants Hillary to go away, but when she has the support of half the party, how can she just give up and disappear? That would be irresponsible to her supporters.

      Another argument that the Obama team has been making for the past few months is that Clinton is ruining Obama's chances in the general election by keeping the election going, and that she's been mean to him with her campaign. The sad thing is that what Hillary has thrown at Obama is nothing compared to what the Republicans will throw at him starting now. If they cannot stand Hillary's attacks, they're going to crumple under McCain and the whole Republican propaganda machine.

      It certainly is an interesting time in politics, seeing such a split in the Democratic party. Hopefully it can come together, but it won't happen if Obama just runs fully with it, leaving HIllary in the dust. Or, as you put it, to "make this woman go away".

      --

      make world, not war

    4. Re:...but Hillary still won't leave. by bsDaemon · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The Clintons and the Bushes are like political Herpes. In my life time, we have had Reagan/Bush, Reagan/Bush, Bush/Quale, Clinton/Gore, Clinton/Gore, Bush/Cheney, Bush/ Cheney -- complete with all the usual suspects from the 80s and 90s... and the fucking Ford administration, too!!

      I am SO FUCKIGN GLAD its not going to be another 8 years of Clinton -- followed by what, Jeb Bush then Chelsey Clinton?

      Bush Sr. and Clinton palling around...

      but yeah, study hard, stay away from drugs and out of cyber-porn on the internet and YOU could be President of the United States some day.... pfft

      sure.

    5. Re:...but Hillary still won't leave. by elrous0 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Hillary (like Bill) is hyper-ambitious and a sore loser. Right now she's still steaming and trying to plot a new course for the only person she ever cared about in this election (herself). She'll be back in a new form soon enough (no doubt trying to strong-arm her way into the VP spot).

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    6. Re:...but Hillary still won't leave. by Hijacked+Public · · Score: 3, Insightful

      First of all, I'm not sure why this is "news for nerds" As I noted somewhere above, it is news for nerds because it helps pay the bills at Slashdot. Political stories generate more page hits than your average Microsoft bash, or vaporware story, or the other usual stuff.

      It is also important, for the marketing folks, to have an idea of what the site's readers policitcal leanings are. This helps the article selection process be more accurate by selecting articles that will generate either a lot of 'me too' comments or a lot of enraged counter commentary.

      This reminds me I need to re-up my subscription.

      I read the political articles more for entertainment than anything else. Slashdot has a lot of high school and college age users and I find their optimism fun to read. Most of them have been paying attention to the political world only through the W years, maybe the last of Clinton's. They just aren't ready to admit to themselves that these new guys will be just like the old guys.

      I actually hope Obama wins so when he signs some new **AA sponsored bill I'll get to read all the heartbroken comments. It'll be like the Google articles, only with more page hits.
      --
      "Sacrifice for the good of The State" - The State
    7. Re:...but Hillary still won't leave. by elrous0 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think George W. has pretty much ended the Bush legacy. It will be a long time before voters can even stomach the thought of another of his ilk.

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    8. Re:...but Hillary still won't leave. by Swampash · · Score: 5, Funny

      A quote I saw today:

      Hillary Clinton, America's Psycho Ex-girlfriend

    9. Re:...but Hillary still won't leave. by cduffy · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I actually hope Obama wins so when he signs some new **AA sponsored bill I'll get to read all the heartbroken comments.
      I don't expect that Obama will only do things I like -- but I also wouldn't exactly be shocked if one of his tech and intellectual property advisors ends up being Larry Lessig; the two go a long way back, and Lessig has given Obama a quite a bit of support (admittedly, among a demographic which Obama pretty much owned already). If that happens, signing some *AA-sponsored bill is... not exceptionally likely.

      We'll see, of course.
    10. Re:...but Hillary still won't leave. by urcreepyneighbor · · Score: 2, Funny

      Chelsey Clinton Chelsea? I'd hit it.
      --
      "The fight for freedom has only just begun." - Geert Wilders
    11. Re:...but Hillary still won't leave. by maxume · · Score: 2, Funny

      Either your math is more awesome than normal math, or you are making quite the comment on Reagan's second term.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
  5. Re:Stands on Linux? by zygotic+mitosis · · Score: 3, Informative

    The site has had a Politics category for a couple years now. This election affects many of us, and it is certainly "stuff that matters".

  6. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 2, Funny

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  7. Uhhh.... by Otter · · Score: 3, Informative

    I have minimal interest in this subject, but even I know his damn name is spelled "Barack", not "Barrack".

  8. Why should she go away? by bstarrfield · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Clinton has no practical reason to "go away" - Obama's victory was surprisingly narrow. Over the last few months the Obama campaign lost momentum - Clinton's victories were quite substantial in several key states that would be essential to a Democratic victory (Ohio and Pennsylvania especially).

    Given Obama's weakness in three key Democratic demographics - women, white blue collar workers, and Hispanics - Clinton still has a substantial role to play in the election.

    Her supporters are bitter about how they perceive Clinton's treatment versus how Obama has been treated by the press. I realize it's anecdotal, but talking to a number of my friends who were ardent Clinton supporters I've become worried that they simply won't vote Democrat due to what they perceive was the unfairness and sexism of the campaign.

    Clinton's in a strong position to request the VP slot. If she concedes to Obama then she simply becomes an also-ran, and has no negotiating power.

    --
    /* Dang, I can't type that well. */
    1. Re:Why should she go away? by $RANDOMLUSER · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Given Obama's weakness in three key Democratic demographics - women, white blue collar workers, and Hispanics
      I keep hearing this canard. The rest of the sentence is against Hillary Clinton. Do you honestly suppose that after the last eight years that those groups are going to flock to McCain in the general election?
      --
      No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism. - Winston Churchill
    2. Re:Why should she go away? by elrous0 · · Score: 5, Informative

      Better tell your Clinton friends to take a LONG HARD LOOK at the alternative. 4-8 more years of Iraq, world hatred, and the continuing decline of the economy is a BIG price just to pay for a little spite.

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    3. Re:Why should she go away? by JustinOpinion · · Score: 2, Interesting

      My guess is that Obama really wants Clinton as a VP candidate. The reason is exactly what you mentioned: too many Clinton supporters are disillusioned for some reason. Many are pledging to not vote for Obama out of some kind of principle (even though his policies are more in-line with their beliefs than the other presidential candidate's).

      If Obama has Clinton as a VP candidate, then all those votes reappear. Clinton supporters will vote in order to get Clinton into office in some capacity.

      From Clinton's point of view, becoming the vice-president of the United States may be a concession, but it's still a very prestigious position. Moreover, being the first female US vice-president will guarantee her a spot in the history books.

      Seems like a mutually beneficial arrangement.

    4. Re:Why should she go away? by Free+the+Cowards · · Score: 5, Insightful

      She only has no practical reason to "go away" if she is absolutely selfish, something which I concede may very well be the case. If she cares at all about her party or her country then she'll admit defeat and get her ass in gear promoting Obama to the masses in every way possible.

      I say this as a dedicated third-party supporter who thinks that every serious Presidential candidate fielded over the past decade or so has been completely useless, from either major party.

      --
      If you mod me Overrated, you are admitting that you have no penis.
    5. Re:Why should she go away? by $RANDOMLUSER · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I can't agree. The LAST thing Obama wants is Hillary as his VP. It sends the message of "same old same old", it brings Bill (and the problem of trying to control him) along as part of the baggage, and it would galvanize the Republicans, who hate her rabidly. Obama would be much better off with a Wesley Clark, somebody who would shore up his support in the saber-rattling credentials department. After he's elected, he can make Hillary Secretary of State.

      --
      No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism. - Winston Churchill
    6. Re:Why should she go away? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It tells you something about the quality of her supporters that they'd rather wreck the country out of spite than admit that they lost.

    7. Re:Why should she go away? by SpinyNorman · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Not that narrow. The nomination is about delegates, and as of this morning the delegate count is Obama: 2156 (vs 2118 needed for victory), Hilary 1932. That's about a 10% lead for Obama, which in terms of general elections is considered to be a "landslide". By the delegate math Hilary hasn't had a serious chance for a long time - it's only the media that have been portraying it as a close race because they want to keep reporting on it.

      I have to disagree that Hilary is in a strong postion for the VP slot. She ran too negative a campaign, and comes with too much baggage (Bill and their combined shady history) - she'd be a boat anhor on his presidency, and since she failed once to put together a national health plan when her own husband was president, I can't see she's more likely to succeed if she was #2 to Obama. Obama needs to pick a VP that not only complements himself in terms of experience and demographic appeal, but who also doesn't detract from his appeal of youth, vision and desire for change. I think John Edwards would make a great ticket (young energetic positive pair vs the crusty aging McCain), then fill the secretary of state and top defense positions with heavy hitters.

    8. Re:Why should she go away? by rock56501 · · Score: 2, Informative

      and the continuing decline of the economy You forgot to mention that the .com burst happened during the Clinton administration and the economy recovered during the Bush administratation. Even after the Demecrats took control of the congress after the 06 election, the US economy still managed to get to the point that it is today. So how would having a Demecratic president change anything?
    9. Re:Why should she go away? by elrous0 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Actually, I don't particularly like either party (I'm a Jesse Ventura man, myself). But I definitely don't want to waste another minute in that abomination of a war in Iraq. And McCain has stated unequivocally that he WILL NOT LEAVE until we achieve victory. Since victory is unachievable in Iraq, this means 4-8 more years in Iraq if McCain wins.

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    10. Re:Why should she go away? by ShannaraFan · · Score: 2, Interesting

      > Many are pledging to not vote for Obama out of some kind of principle

      Right, principles... My father-in-law (about as close to West Virginia hillbilly as you can get), has already started with the crude Obama jokes. He's standing on his "principles", refusing to vote for Obama because "you can't trust a black man". Obama's comment about guns and religion really set him off, "dumbest goddam thing I ever did hear". Excuse me, you live in the woods, go to church every Sunday, have a cabinet full of guns at home, carry a gun in your truck, and threaten to shoot everybody who crosses you? Truth hurts, I guess.

    11. Re:Why should she go away? by Choad+Namath · · Score: 3, Interesting

      He has a 125-delegate lead in pledged delegates and 113 in superdelegates, so the lead including supers is 238. Even if Hillary was somehow able to get all outstanding superdelegates to support her, she would still need around 60 Obama delegates to switch to her. That would be incredibly unlikely unless Obama is caught with a dead girl or live boy.

    12. Re:Why should she go away? by geminidomino · · Score: 2, Funny

      And your kids will carry that DNA...

      Be afraid, be very afraid...

    13. Re:Why should she go away? by squiggleslash · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Because they haven't held elections in either state. Not valid ones anyway. Those who participated in the state-run opinion polls in either state did so in the belief they weren't doing anything but expressing an opinion. Those who didn't participate stayed away believing they would be taking part in something that wouldn't count and would be in violation of the rules. In one of those opinion polls, voters weren't even asked their opinion of Obama.

      There are two wrong-headed decisions made here. One was the refusal of both states to participate in the Democratic candidate selection process. The other was the decision by the DNC to partially validate the results of two bogus elections whose results were, effectively, utterly meaningless by allowing "half votes" for one state, and the "average between 50:50 and the bogus result, with Obama being given all the votes against the other candidate" for the other. In reality, no talk of compromises should have been made, and Clinton should have been penalized for deliberately stirring up trouble. The ball should have been firmly in the offending states's court to hold a proper election. Clinton's decision to pretend the results were in some way valid gave both states all the excuses they needed to ignore the complete illegitimacy of their results and refuse to hold valid elections.

      The results of the 2008 nominating process are tainted by the inclusion of fraudulent election results. One has to hope that the end result, Obama winning, is what would have happened anyway, and that Clinton would not have gained enough candidates in Michigan and Florida to overturn Obama's lead had the elections there been valid.

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    14. Re:Why should she go away? by digitrev · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Now, personally, my opinion is that the whole primary system is inherently flawed. The fact that a few states can so heavily influence who can run is absurd. Hold it all on one day so the media gets less control of the damn process. Or look at the way the Liberal party of Canada does it. Not saying it's perfect, but it's a thought. What they do is they have the local Liberal riding groups vote for their preferred candidate. They then send delegates to the convention, and those delegates are required to make their first vote towards the candidate their riding told them to vote for. If one of the candidates gets a majority of the delegate votes, they're the leader of the Liberal party. Otherwise, the delegates are now free to vote for whomever they want until a candidate wins the majority. All of these runoff votes are held in one sitting until someone wins. Period. Get rid of this staggered voting for the candidates.

      --
      Cynical Idealist
    15. Re:Why should she go away? by Hyppy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I've spent 2 years in Iraq and 18 months in Afghanistan. Could you truly fault me for focusing on that issue when choosing a candidate?

    16. Re:Why should she go away? by lawpoop · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You forgot to mention that the .com burst happened during the Clinton administration and the economy recovered during the Bush administratation. Are you kidding me? The economy hasn't recovered; all that's happened is 1. a housing bubble, where people got cash from home equity loans -- which has since crashed -- and 2. a credit card bubble, which will crash shortly after this housing crash cycles through. There's been no recovery; just two bubbles, one of which just burst.

      The American economy is like this: You used to have a good paying union job with benefits. That job got shipped overseas, and you started to work two part-time jobs. To make ends meet, you got home-equity loans, traded up your house, and got 0% APR deals on new credit card lines. Things were looking good ( i.e. the economy 'recovered' ) until you found yourself upside down in your mortgage, with ballooning mortage payments. Now you have that plus your credit card debt. Also, your parents are elderly and your kids want to go college in a few years. And, you would like to retire at some point. And, you don't have health insurance. And, the value of the dollar has been cut in half. And, gas has doubled in price. And, food prices are going up.

      Economy recovered!? What year are you living in? 2003?
      --
      Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
      -- Pablo Picasso
  9. Re:Stands on Linux? by pkboy · · Score: 2, Informative

    His campaign's websites use Linux

  10. Re:Stands on Linux? by mrbluze · · Score: 2, Informative

    Or is the election campaign qualify as being "for nerds" now? If you were looking at the firehose at the time, the posts regarding this topic were running red hot. Obviously people on Slashdot thought it warranted discussion.
    --
    Do it yourself, because no one else will do it yourself. [beta blockade 10-17 Feb]
  11. Re:People don't seem to learn from reading, either by Minwee · · Score: 4, Funny

    Are you suggesting that the spell chequer was somehow wrong?

    Don't you know that the Computer is your friend, and any deviation from its approved spelling can lead to your being used as reactor shielding?

  12. He's a Democrat, so who he is doesn't matter now by misanthrope101 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    you need to win the votes from both parties, not just your own
    Could you sum up the traits a Democrat nominee would have to have for the Republicans to refrain from demonizing him? The Republicans will only vote for an R, unless their own candidate is so bad that they have to stay home. McCain may or may not be be that bad, but it remains to be seen.

    Anyway, Obama would be demonized with any name, and regardless of his hue. No matter who he is, if he's a D and he's running, then he'll be the "single most liberal member of Congress" since Che Guavera or whoever, an "elite" know-it-all who is out of touch with the heartland of America, will have gotten a "free pass" from our "overwhelmingly liberal media," would put us in danger of "appeasing" the terrorists, "emboldening our enemies," etc. It's the same script, every time, all the time. The Republicans always use the same words to galvanize their base, because, well, it works. Who or what Obama is or isn't has little to do with how the Republicans will vote.

  13. Re:Stands on Linux? by Hijacked+Public · · Score: 3, Interesting

    More directly, policitical stories always generate a lot of page hits. They also afford an opportunity to study the site's demographics on the sly.

    --
    "Sacrifice for the good of The State" - The State
  14. Re:People don't seem to learn from reading, either by ChromeAeonium · · Score: 4, Funny

    Balrog Obama? Now that sounds like a candidates I can trust!

  15. Re:I can't wait! by arthurpaliden · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You do know that if you don't vote then you don't have any 'moral' right to complain about the result.

  16. Re:Please explain us ... by cowscows · · Score: 5, Informative

    In the US there are two major political parties, and each one puts one candidate up for the election in the general election for President. But before the general election, each party has the primary campaign, where individuals within each party run against each other for the right to be the candidate in the election. These primary campaigns basically involve citizens (when it's their state's turn) going and voting for the candidate that they want to represent whichever party. Depending on the rules of the particular state, sometimes you have to be a registered member of that party in order to vote, and sometimes they're open to anyone registered to vote at all. Basically the way it works is that depending on how many votes you get in a primary, then you get a certain number of delegates. Delegates are basically voting representatives for that state, proportioned by the relative populations of each state,and are expected to vote in accordance with the results of the primary popular vote in that state.

    You don't need to win one of the primaries to run for president, but you need to win one if you want the support of one of the major political parties. For various reasons, it's currently not particularly practical for a candidate to win the general election unless they are a candidate from one of the two main parties.

    The two major parties in the US are the Democrats and the Republicans. Each party creates the specific rules that are used in their own primaries to select their candidates. The democrats, for various reasons, have come up with a complicated system that not only has regular delegates, but also has "super-delegates." Supers are usually (but not always) individuals considered particularly important to the democratic party (elected officials, party leaders, etc), and they are free to put their delegate vote towards whichever candidate they wish. Basically, they're individuals who's vote counts for way more than the average person's. Their role is restricted purely to the democratic primary however, in a general election, their vote counts for no more than anyone else's.

    That's just a brief overview, without the history of why super-delegates exist, but there's plenty of information out there to be found on that.

    --

    One time I threw a brick at a duck.

  17. Re:I can't wait! by bigstrat2003 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    For the love of God, man! If you don't like the Republican/Democratic candidates, don't sit at home: vote for a third-party candidate. Surely there has to be one out there who you agree with, and anything whatsoever is better than not voting.

    --
    "16MB (fuck off, MiB fascists)" - The Mighty Buzzard
  18. Re:What kind of message? by Free+the+Cowards · · Score: 3, Insightful
    My grandmother is a typical white woman. It's just the facts, not derogatory in any way.

    Historically the Republicans have plenty of ties to terrorists, and nobody seems to care.

    It's entirely possible to love and admire your spiritual advisor while thinking that his more worldly theories are insane. There is at least one person in my life like that, although his theories are somewhat more tame.

    But anyone who has done research on this man doesn't want him as president. I'm utterly sick of this kind of bullshit talk. If you don't like him, fine. Say so. But saying that it is impossible to like him if you know him is ridiculous. Plenty of people do. Accept that other people can have opinions which do not match yours.
    --
    If you mod me Overrated, you are admitting that you have no penis.
  19. Re:Good Luck America by PerdixUK · · Score: 4, Funny

    Perhaps America shouldn't have declared independence, because they obviously still need baby sitting.

  20. Ha! by InvisblePinkUnicorn · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "if you don't vote then you don't have any 'moral' right to complain about the result."

    That's a quaint assumption backed up by no rationale whatsoever. I am a taxpayer and a US citizen, so I have every right to persuade other members of society to effect changes I desire. Voting is a right, not a gateway to other rights. On its own, it also happens to be the least effective method of bringing about change. I would rather use my freedom of speech to persuade the public to bring about a candidate that will uphold everyone's rights rather than trample them. Until such a candidate exists, there will be no acceptable choice for president.

  21. Re:What kind of message? by bigstrat2003 · · Score: 5, Informative

    Calling his own grandmother a "typical white woman"? Is that caring and accepting? It's neutral.

    Or what about his spiritual advisor, who baptized his children and married him and his wife, saying that the white US Government created AIDS to kill black people? What about his relationship with someone who has bombed United States buildings? So he knows some crazy people. Big fucking deal. I have some friends whose opinions are moronic beyond belief, but that doesn't mean I agree with them in the slightest.

    Funny how you touch on shit that doesn't matter in the least, yet leave out the one thing that really does paint Obama as an elitist, insensitive bastard: him going on about how people only like guns/religion because they're poor, a month or two ago.

    --
    "16MB (fuck off, MiB fascists)" - The Mighty Buzzard
  22. Re:I can't wait! by InvisblePinkUnicorn · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "Surely there has to be one out there who you agree with, and anything whatsoever is better than not voting."

    Both of those assumptions are false. I will only support a candidate willing to uphold the rights of the citizenry. Show me such a candidate. My vote is of little consequence, especially when it is a vote for a candidate who cannot get a majority. Freedom of speech is the more effective route: persuading lots of members of the public to eventually bring about a viable candidate.

  23. Hmm by RealErmine · · Score: 2, Funny

    So no doubt we'll continue to hear debate on this subject until either the convention or Hillary steps down. Would an anti-Hillary step up? Someone contact CERN.
    --
    Dewey, you fool! Your decimal system has played right into my hands!
  24. Someone help me with this... by Voltar · · Score: 5, Funny

    Is Obama a black man with a white mother or a white man with a black father? As a racist white male, this question has been causing me night terrors!

    1. Re:Someone help me with this... by elrous0 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Depends on the audience he's addressing.

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
  25. Rich fat cats who like guns and religion. by Hankapobe · · Score: 2, Funny
    him going on about how people only like guns/religion because they're poor, a month or two ago.

    Someone needs to tell him about the rich fat cats in the Republican party who like guns and religion. Dick Cheney for one.

  26. My new favorite saying by bxwatso · · Score: 2, Funny
    Speaking as a "Typical White Person,"1 I find him a"Clean, Articulate, and Bright Affican American"2

    1. Obama himself

    2. Joe Biden

  27. Re:Race relations in the US. by ChromeAeonium · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Yes. We should remind people that it doesn't matter if you're black or white. The only color that matters is green.

  28. Re:He's a Democrat, so who he is doesn't matter no by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    an "elite" know-it-all who is out of touch with the heartland of America

    Elite: 1. A group or class of persons or a member of such a group or class, enjoying superior intellectual, social, or economic status. 2. The best or most skilled members of a group.

    Why is it that people think "elite" is bad? Would you rather have a president who is smarter than the average citizen or just average? For the past 8 years we've had a president who is as dumb or dumber than most people (or at least he likes to pretend he is).... and that didn't do anything good for the country.

  29. The Republican Party is not "conservative". by Futurepower(R) · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Exactly. The Republican Party is not "conservative". That word is only used to get votes. In fact, the Republican Party has put the U.S. government into far more debt.

    There are, in effect, two Republican Parties. One is a real political party. The other is extremely corrupt and merely says anything necessary to get control. The real purpose is control, not managing the U.S. government for its citizens. For example, search digg.com and reddit.com for the term "martial law".

    There has been conflict of interest because of the fact that the president and vice-president and their families and friends and associates have a history of investment in oil and weapons. The purpose of invading Iraq was to get control of the oil supply, so that the price of oil would rise. Saddam Hussein was not cooperating; he was selling as much oil as he wanted.

    The reason for the U.S. government's plan to invade Iran is to further restrict the supply of oil. If the U.S. government invades, the price of oil could easily become $8 per gallon; it is necessary to have oil to make our societies function; people would have to pay any price.

    Also, his name is "Barack" Obama, as others have noted. I wish Slashdot editors could be real editors, and check their work.

    1. Re:The Republican Party is not "conservative". by dvice_null · · Score: 5, Funny

      > I wish Slashdot editors could be real editors, and check their work.

      We will see a black female president who supports communism and is a Debian core developer, before that happens.

    2. Re:The Republican Party is not "conservative". by msuarezalvarez · · Score: 3, Insightful

      One is a real political party. The other is extremely corrupt and merely says anything necessary to get control.

      What makes you think real political parties are not extremely corrupt and say anything necessary to get control?

    3. Re:The Republican Party is not "conservative". by EMeta · · Score: 5, Funny

      And high oil prices will in turn decrease consumption, which will save the planet! The neocons are actually trying to save us from ourselves, you see. It all becomes so clear now!

    4. Re:The Republican Party is not "conservative". by tuxgeek · · Score: 2, Insightful
      OK, There are 2 of us that see what has really been going on.

      The problem here is how can anyone tell which republican is which. Will the bad republican melt if you throw water on them?

      McCain is still another puppet controlled by the corporate puppet masters. Ever notice that John McCain doesn't speak when Cheney the Dick is drinking water?

      --
      "Suppose you were an idiot...and suppose you were a member of Congress...but I repeat myself." Mark Twain
    5. Re:The Republican Party is not "conservative". by wooferhound · · Score: 5, Funny

      The Republicans
      are the
      Grand Oil Party

      --
      We are Dead Stars looking back Up at the Sky
    6. Re:The Republican Party is not "conservative". by skeeto · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You forgot to stick atheist (or I guess the communist part covered that) and homosexual in there somewhere.

    7. Re:The Republican Party is not "conservative". by fredan · · Score: 2, Funny

      not to mention that she is the one that has developed Duke Nukem Forever!

    8. Re:The Republican Party is not "conservative". by Muad'Dave · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Your lucid description of how things are explains perfectly why, as a life-long Republican, I will not be voting McCain. I won't be voting Democrat, either. I am much more closely aligned with Ron Paul's message, and will either write him in or vote Constitutional Party if they're on my state's ballot.

      --
      Tiller's Rule: Never use a word in written form that you've only heard and never read. You will end up looking foolish.
    9. Re:The Republican Party is not "conservative". by PhearoX · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The purpose of invading Iraq was to get control of the oil supply, so that the price of oil would rise. Saddam Hussein was not cooperating; he was selling as much oil as he wanted. [Citation needed]

      ...what's funny is that the market is *extremely* well-supplied with oil. Oil prices should be in the $60-$70 range right now, but these fools on wall st. are willing to pay $130+ a barrel for something in excellent supply out of simple fear. With Iraq producing record Oil output and the U.S. not seeing a dime of that money, I'm not sure what's up with all the sheep buying in to the "WE DID IT FOR THE OIL!" conspiracy theory. If we did it for the oil, we wouldn't be paying $4 a gallon. We'd be paying $2.50 and the oil companies' profits would double because they are essentially getting the oil for free from Iraq. This isn't happening, the US is not benefiting from Iraq's oil, and here we sit.
    10. Re:The Republican Party is not "conservative". by VJ42 · · Score: 2, Informative

      I'm not even American, but even I know that the other side were not exactly guiltless in cooperating with the Iraqi reigeme either.

      --
      If I have nothing to hide, you have no reason to search me
    11. Re:The Republican Party is not "conservative". by cjb658 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I hope to God we don't get a democrat in the white house *and* a democratic congress.

      The reason republicans are so corrupt is because there haven't been as many checks and balances as there should be.

    12. Re:The Republican Party is not "conservative". by Cassius+Corodes · · Score: 5, Funny

      I was looking for a candidate that stood for higher taxes, more government, less free trade, more social programs and was anti-defence. Thnx for letting me know!

      --
      Control is an illusion, order our comforting lie. From chaos, through chaos, into chaos we fly
    13. Re:The Republican Party is not "conservative". by Shakrai · · Score: 2, Insightful

      and Obama wants to take what little money I have and give it to people who don't like to work

      Could you stop repeating that damn myth unless you intend to back it up with some real evidence? What specific program that he has purposed do you think is going to "give money to people who don't like to work"?

      And speaking of giving money to people who don't like to work: What about the $600 "stimulus" package promoted by GWB and jumped on by both parties? Wouldn't it have made more sense to have invested that money into the highway fund, green projects or any number of infrastructure upgrades that would employ people right here in the United States instead of giving people money to go spend on Chinese crap at Wally World?

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    14. Re:The Republican Party is not "conservative". by Shakrai · · Score: 2, Informative

      I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure free public healthcare (welfare) is a cornerstone of his campaign

      Where did you get the impression that any of the Democrats health care plans would be "free"? Hillary talked about garnishing paychecks. No one is purposing "free" health care.

      FWIW I'm not the biggest fan of any of their plans. But you can't do nothing as John McCain purposes. There is simply no reason that a gainfully employed American should have to file bankruptcy if they get sick. Yet that's exactly what happens to a lot of people. Do you really see the current situation as sustainable?

      As far as proving the democratic party has demonstrated an affinity for giving free stuff to people and creating massive bureaucracies to manage those peoples' lives for them

      As opposed to the massive bureaucracy created by the Republicans that thinks keeping us safe means outlawing bottled water and breast milk on airplanes? I'll ask you again: What "free" stuff is Barack Obama offering?

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    15. Re:The Republican Party is not "conservative". by RyuuzakiTetsuya · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The point of making an argument isn't to make the other person do your research for you, it's to do the research and make a point yourself. Now, saying that there is a history just doesn't make it automatically so, and pointing out a single plank in the Obama platform doesn't mean that there's broad support for socialist bureaucratic reforms. Let's try this again. What the fuck are you smoking and where can I get some?

      --
      Non impediti ratione cogitationus.
  30. The Ideal Nominee by kellyb9 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I just wish for once a person would run on something other than a slew of social issues that they have no power to change. And worse yet, I wish people would stop voting for canidates based on their stance on abortion or gay marriage or anything else. The ideal person, for me, is the person who can evaluate situations as they come along and apply a little bit of common sense in government. Maybe this describes Ron Paul, maybe it doesn't. In the end, I know that this is just a dream because the large parties will never nominate someone who goes against their social agenda and people will never vote for someone who goes against their beliefs.

  31. Hmmm. by WindBourne · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Yes, it did not matter so much in england that Tony blair waited until AFTER leaving office before converting from Church of England to Roman Catholic. That is, he waited until he was done politically. I am guessing that the simple fact is, that nearly all politicians in England are either agnostic OR church of England. After all, how many lords are muslims or hindus?

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  32. I'd say the opposite is true by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I'm generally a conservative. I hesitate to call myself a republican, though that is the party I'm registered with, but of the two majors, they are closer to what I believe in. A libertarian might be the right term, though they tend to be rather... Extremist. The point is, I'm not a Democrat and didn't get to vote in that primary.

    Regardless I am what you might call a moderate conservative. I have and will certainly cross party lines. I vote based on who I think will do the best job, not a D or an R. So I'm the kind of voter that the democrats need to be after. In my case, I'll almost certainly vote for Obama if he's nominated. If not, I'll probably vote for McCain. I don't like Clinton at all. She seems very totalitarian, in that she thinks she knows what's best for the economy, for you personally (her video game stance for example) and so on. That is opposite to what I think. I think in general government should try and stay out of things, when practical. They should be a force that guides the economy, not controls it, and that ensures people have freedoms but that they don't infringe on others, not that hands out a list of what is right and wrong.

    So for me, Obama is good. I don't agree with him 100%, but then I don't agree with anyone but myself 100%. However over all I like his policies, and I think he'll be good for the nation. Clinton, no, sorry, I won't go that route. While I don't think McCain is as good a candidate as Obama, I think he's better than Clinton.

    I'm not the only person I know who's the same way either. I have a number of friends with similar political views and the thing I hear is "I hope Obama wins because I'll vote for him, but if not I'll vote for McCain."

    Hardcore republicans are a lost cause. They'll vote R no matter what. So while they might hate Obama more, it doesn't matter since they won't vote for Hillary either. They are all R all the time. The people who matter are those who come down on the conservative side, but aren't caught up in party dogma.

    Now I have no empirical evidence as to who will vote what way, but this assumption that Clinton has the ability win win republicans where as Obama doesn't is just silly. Neither will win the party voters, and I and my friends are proof that there are at least some out there who feel Obama yes, Clinton no. We probably aren't the only ones either.

    No candidate is going to have a walk in the park this time around, all of them have something that a non-trivial portion of America has a problem with. However that doesn't mean Obama has no chance, in fact I'd say it is quite the opposite.

  33. Re:Please explain us ... by khelek · · Score: 2, Informative

    That's just a brief overview, without the history of why super-delegates exist Quick explanation of why super-delegates exist: The powers that be in the Democratic Party don't trust the voters to select their presidential nominee. Like in everything else, they know better than we common folk do.
  34. What is he gonna change? by Hurricanepkt · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I still want to know what he is going to change? I haven't really been able to figure out much of what he plan's to change?

    1. Re:What is he gonna change? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      I haven't really been able to figure out much of what he plan's to change? Then you haven't read his Blueprint for Change.

    2. Re:What is he gonna change? by Dripdry · · Score: 5, Informative

      Can someone PLEASE mod the above as "lazy"?

      Mod ALL posts or comments in the media like this as "lazy", please?

      Do I have to be the person to come and post "RTFM" ?

      For everything that's holy you're on the fracking INTERNET! USE IT!

      http://www.barackobama.com/issues/

      There you go. There are, in detail, his stances on the issues. Do you honestly think he has time to go over policy during a 5 minute campaign speech?

      If this was too harsh, please mod me down, but I am really sick of people making that comment and I think that was the straw that broke the camel's back. Thank you and goodnight.

      --
      -
  35. Re:I can't wait! by JasterBobaMereel · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I can't vote (I am not an American Citizen, have never been to America ... ) but the result *will* effect me ... to whom do I complain!

    --
    Puteulanus fenestra mortis
  36. was it really that condescending? by misanthrope101 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    him going on about how people only like guns/religion because they're poor, a month or two ago

    Well, here's the quote:

    "You go into these small towns in Pennsylvania and, like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing's replaced them. And they fell through the Clinton administration, and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not.

    And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy toward people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.

    I guess you and I just read things differently, because I got a bit more nuance out of his statements, and "people only like guns/religion because they're poor" doesn't quite capture it. Seeing the economic viability of your community crumble, seeing the way of life of your parents crumble, can be a polarizing experience, and yes, people cling to things, things they consider symbolic of their way of life. I don't see anything especially patronizing about saying that people are pissed off and that when they're pissed off the symbolic things matter more than they might in times of prosperity.

  37. Its going to be a landslide FOR Obama by Lokni · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Did any of you see the speech yesterday by McCain? Who does a speech in New Orleans and not have a single black person show up? The differences between McCain and Obama are so stark that people have very little choice in the matter. 3/4s of this country want the war to end. A vote for McCain is a vote to continue the war. He has made that painfully obvious. A vote for McCain is a vote for continuation of the same policies that have made Bush the most unpopular president in the history of the country. On top of all of that the turnout for this election is going to be massive. Election boards nationwide have reported that turnout for just the primaries this year have exceeded turnout for general elections past. What is energizing people to come out like that? Probably the same feelings that makes Bush unpopular. Independent voters are breaking hard to the left for Obama. And in reality, if you want the best indicator that people are going to vote a Democrat president in, look at the Republican house and senate seats that have been lost already to Democrats this year. Across the country seats held for decades by Republicans are being won by Democrats or are being polled as likely Democrat pickups already. There is one house race I know of in the south that voted 70% for Bush in 2004, it is that Republican of a district. Yet today, it is polling 65% in favor of the Democrat candidate. The turnarounds nationwide are, in some cases, that big. There is no way this country is about to continue the policies of George W Bush with a vote for McCain.

  38. elitism by misanthrope101 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Why is it that people think "elite" is bad?
    "Elite" is bad only because of the virulent populism and latent anti-intellectualism running through a wide swath of American culture. What's even more bizarre is that millionaires like Bush and McCain can use it against other millionaires to get poor people to vote R. You'd think that people would eventually realize they were being manipulated and get pissed off about it, but they never do.

    Even Bush's country accent is fake--he's not really a country boy, not really a rancher, etc. But the populism button keeps on spitting out the votes. As cynical as I am, I still find it depressing.

  39. Re:He'd be Pelosi's pawn anyway... by TapeCutter · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "More taxes means less freedom"

    So it follows that places like Afganistan and Sudan are on the top of the freedom list and the scandanavian countries are near the bottom?

    --
    And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
  40. Re:Since when he is black? by Woundweavr · · Score: 4, Insightful

    First, how is he black, when he has the same % being white? How would it make him a first black president? First mulatto president. Saying he is first black is as disgenious as calling you a woman because you have half of the genome to be one. Is USA so racist that we label people by the color of their skin?

    Yes.

    What part of "black" did you not understand?
  41. Re:Invitation to torture our troops by cduffy · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Do our enemies need such an invitation? Last time I checked Arab countries had a history of torturing captured enemies, one that predates the first Gulf war.
    It's one thing to have an enemy that takes some immoral action. It's another thing for every enemy to have a moral justification which they can offer in public to support that action.

    When he's not Bush Light, McCain understands this.
  42. Apparently war comes with Democrats or Republicans by jbn-o · · Score: 5, Informative

    And Sen. Obama is offering exactly what as an alternative to more war? Certainly not immediate withdrawal from Iraq, despite how many Americans want that (it'll be a bloodbath if we leave now, we're told, as if Iraqi are so busy laying roses at our soldiers and mercenaries' feet). His Iran threat to the Chicago Tribune ("[T]he big question is going to be, if Iran is resistant to these pressures [to stop its nuclear program], including economic sanctions, which I hope will be imposed if they do not cooperate, at what point ... if any, are we going to take military action? ... [L]aunching some missile strikes into Iran is not the optimal position for us to be in" given the ongoing war in Iraq. "On the other hand, having a radical Muslim theocracy in possession of nuclear weapons is worse.") and his recent vote for allocating $165 billion for the occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan (including $51 billion dollars for veterans' education) tell me that he, like any other corporate-funded Democrat, have no principled objection to war or to these wars in particular.

    As Cindy Sheehan recently reminded us, the Democrats have a strong history of war making and a lot to apologize for:

    Democrats are responsible for every war in the last 108 years, excluding the two Bush wars and the Reagan Grenada farce. Democrats are responsible for dropping, not one, but two atomic bombs on the innocent citizens of Japan. Democrats deserve no slack, and should be given none.

  43. Re:SecState by maxume · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Isn't one of the things he is running on improved international relations?

    The real interesting thing will be to see what Bill does on January 21st, 2009. Does he file for divorce? Does she? Etc...

    --
    Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
  44. Re:What kind of message? by Spudds · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Holy shit on a shingle I hate republicans and their incessant inability to leave obnoxious bullshit SPIN out of anything they say.
    He did NOT say "people cling to religion and guns because they're poor" you spin-monkey shrill a-hole.

    Here's a quote so you can stop spreading that bullshit

    "You go into these small towns in Pennsylvania and, like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing's replaced them...And they fell through the Clinton Administration, and the Bush Administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not."

    "And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations." And that quote is from a freaking right-wing Roman Catholic website! (the first three pages of my google search were all from right-wingers trying to make Obama look bad, go figure).

    Jesus christ all ready. All he basically said was that they're living in dried up commuinities that keep getting passed over by the government even though they're promised relief, which of course frustrates these people (eventually leading to becoming bitter against the government) and they turn to ("cling") their hobbies and beliefs to express their frustration.

    Take your obnoxious right-wing out-of-context political spin and shove it up your ass.
  45. Re:Just So Yo Know What You're Buying This Time by Mr.+Slippery · · Score: 5, Informative

    How David Axelrod works as the Obama dirty-tricks dept.:
    http://www.thornwalker.com/ditch/olson_obama.htm

    A choice quote from your link: "Watching the never-ending spectacle of glassy-eyed white girls gone wild for this mulatto, and knowing the Negro libido and psyche, one finds it almost impossible to believe that he has never taken advantage of his opportunities."

    Would you care to renounce that author?

    --
    Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
    You cannot wash away blood with blood
  46. Re:Apparently war comes with Democrats or Republic by elrous0 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Obama will get us out of Iraq. But he's not a mindless pacifist (no reasonable leader ever should be). There's a big difference.

    --
    SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
  47. Re:People don't seem to learn from reading, either by genner · · Score: 5, Funny

    I can se Mccains slogan. Obama shall not pass.

  48. Re:He's a Democrat, so who he is doesn't matter no by Dog-Cow · · Score: 2, Informative

    It's because most such people are using elite to mean snobbish. The two often coincide, but as you point out, not by definition.

  49. Re:People don't seem to learn from reading, either by Quiet_Desperation · · Score: 4, Funny

    Balrog Obama? Now that sounds like a candidates I can trust! His foreign policy would be unstoppable. Well, unless the terrorists pull a Gandalf out of their turban. I can't believe I'm even typing this nonsense!
  50. Re:People don't seem to learn from reading, either by f8l_0e · · Score: 5, Funny

    That doesn't make sense. That's Gandalf's line, not Saruman's. :)

  51. Wow. by nobodyman · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I don't have any mod points left, but welcome to my friends list pal. You've just echoed the feelings that made me become an independent.

    I think the final straw for me was when Team of Rivals came out, and all of the neocon pundits essentially ran a smear campaign... against Lincoln!! The Republicans of today are in name only.

  52. Re:Every once in a while by EQ · · Score: 2, Informative

    Is this really the best the US can come up with for presidential candidates? Its a symptom of a broken system. 2 party politics are what delivers such mediocre candidates. If you look back at US history, a dynamic effective leader is seldom the result of our system in the US.

    On the bright side, as long as "we the people" continue to push back against bad government and work to retain basic personal and economic freedoms, mediocrity from a President is usually good enough.
    --
    Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo! http://goo.gl/J9bkO
  53. Re:What kind of message? by ericrost · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You mean like the batshit crazy idea that the Jews are the chosen people of Jehova and anyone that brings harm to them will incur the wrath of the Lord? That's not racist or crazy, riight.

    Religion at its most basic level is racist, crazy, nonsense propaganda that should be ignored in its totality in a political campaign. I just wish he'd had the guts to remain atheist as he was raised, but you can't get elected President as an atheist.

  54. Oooh he threatened Iran! by Chris+Burke · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Certainly not immediate withdrawal from Iraq

    Ooh not "immediate" withdrawal. It'll be fast enough for most of us.

    at what point ... if any, are we going to take military action?

    Oh yeah, that's a terrible threat there. "There may or may not exist a point where we would want to use military action to stop Iran from getting nuclear weapons". Wow, so hostile there, compared to Bush's peace offerings.

    Considering that he has also been heavily criticized for saying he would speak directly with Iran's President, i.e. use diplomacy, this 'threat' seems pretty irrelevant.

    is recent vote for allocating $165 billion for the occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan (including $51 billion dollars for veterans' education) tell me that he, like any other corporate-funded Democrat, have no principled objection to war or to these wars in particular.

    Funding a war in progress -- and in particular caring for our people damaged by this war -- is completely different from not objecting to it. Guess what? It'll cost money to get our troops out of Iraq too, so when he proposes a spending bill that includes this money, don't lump that in with "supporting the war".

    Democrats deserve no slack, and should be given none.

    I don't hold the actions of Nixon or Reagan against Bush Jr; I see no reason to hold the actions of JFK against Obama. Because that makes no sense.

    --

    The enemies of Democracy are
  55. Re:Apparently war comes with Democrats or Republic by Chris+Burke · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Pulling out over-night, as many seem to want, is possibly the worst thing to do. The government (and army) is nowhere near the point that they can actually control the country, and seeing the mighty american army leave like that will only help to bolster the extremists, Iran etc.

    Hi. Hate to break this unhappy news to you, but the current government is fundamentally incapable of controlling the country, because it is seen as illegitimate by most of the country. Any government formed under occupation, no matter how many stained thumbs you show off, is going to be seen as thus. No matter how long we stay, that government will fall as soon as we leave. Or it will have to start being very un-Democratic in order to stay in power. Either way, it will be brutal.

    Also, this entire Iraqi enterprise has bolstered Iran, and nothing we do before we leave is going to change that either. The government, and especially the army, is closely tied with Iran. The largest political party, SCIRII* was formed by Iraqi exiles living in Iran. Their militia, the Badr Brigade, has effectively transformed itself into the army. It's the same militia, but now wearing uniforms with "official" standing. Remember in that recent farce of a conflict, where the Iraqi Army was trying to push Sadr's militia out, and failed miserably? Remember how they were calling Sadr "Iran-backed" in the stories to help justify the action? Well, he is Iranian backed, but the Prime Minister's party and SCIRII are even more. So in the conflict that comes after we leave, whoever wins, it's a win for Iran.

    So while we shouldn't leave instantly, we shouldn't dawdle because there isn't much point. We should start drawing down, over maybe a year, two tops, and dedicate our time remaining to all the public works projects that we have failed to finish. Maybe it'll all be blown up the day after we leave, but maybe we can at least leave a positive last impression on our way out. Sticking around trying to prevent the inevitable is just making things worse.

    * Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq, they call themselves something else now, without the scary "Islamic Revolution" part. Must have made the Iranian pedigree too obvious.

    --

    The enemies of Democracy are
  56. A small piece of wisdom by StevenMaurer · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I ... don't stand by the race-baiting ... He does uncover the ugly underbelly of the politics of "Hope" with specific examples. Here's a little word of advice: When reading the diatribes of racists, bigots, and other emotionally stunted people, consider the possibility that such people may even stoop to mischaracterization. Or even lying.

    Hard to believe, but never the less, true.

    A second piece of wisdom. You do yourself a disservice praising and quoting a piece liberally sprinkled with the following kinds of phrases: "Magic Negro", "Negro clown", "young gentleman of color is claiming to have had a sexual encounter with Saint Barack", "because Obama is a socialist, a Democrat, and - especially - a Negro". It strongly suggests that you yourself are quite comfortable with overt racism and pathological hate. And it leads me to the conclusion, Mr. Cornelius, that you are engaged in a crude form of psychological rationalization for your own unstated racist sentiments.

    A little self-introspection may be in order.
    1. Re:A small piece of wisdom by db32 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      So we can't assume someone is a racist if they pass out racist material? I'm sure those folks handing out the KKK flyers aren't racist either, they just really believe the KKK has a solid point. That is bullshit. This isn't some anti-racism crusade, this is someone posting a link to a drivel spewing bigot as evidence of Obama corruption. The credibility of the claims goes to fucking absolute zero once you start reading "Magic Negro" and the lines about the Negro labido and psyche. People who propogate racist shit like that are racists themselves or unbelievably and undeniably stupid, which is nearly the same thing.

      By all means...provide evidence of political corruption, but when it is just another right wingnut blathering on with racist nonsenes and hate of them socialist Democrats it just highlights your own stupidity. Nevermind that the current Republican party is more like the Soviets they try to equate the Dems to.

      To be fair that white guilt crap that says I am supposed to feel bad for racism and slavery that I had absolute nothing to do with is total bullshit too.

      --
      The only change I can believe in is what I find in my couch cushions.
  57. Re:People don't seem to learn from reading, either by dave420 · · Score: 4, Funny

    YOU SHALL NOT PASS... legislation, because that's the job of Congress.

  58. Re:I can't wait! by masterzora · · Score: 2, Insightful

    And if no one runs that I feel I can vote for? I'm not allowed to complain that all of the candidates suck equally? Where was the vote that I missed to get a candidate who doesn't suck? Your logic makes no sense at all.

    That said, I'm voting for Obama come November.

    --
    Remember, open source is free as in speech, not free as in bear.
  59. Re:What kind of message? by Dachannien · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I'm not sure what part of "The US government is responsible for infecting zillions of blacks with AIDS," mis-citing the Tuskegee experiments (which didn't infect anyone with syphilis, but rather allowed their infections to go untreated) as evidence, is being taken out of context. The same can be said for many of Wright's other ridiculous claims.

    And I don't think for a minute that Barack Obama believes any of that crap. But I do question his honesty and his judgment in how he handled the whole mess, and those are issues of character that are relevant in a Presidential campaign.

  60. Re:Sorry by imputor · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Care to give any specific examples of Obama's supposed corruptness?

  61. Re:Just So Yo Know What You're Buying This Time by Squiffy · · Score: 2, Funny

    "Octoroon" sounds like an eight-sided cookie.

  62. Re:Sorry by niktemadur · · Score: 2

    He's dirty as fuck, more corrupt than a Louisiana politician.

    Appropriate analogy! McCain was eating cake with Bush as New Orleans, Louisiana drowned. While people were dying in one of the greatest natural catastrophes in US history, McCain and Bush were licking delicious sugar icing off each other's noses!

    --
    Lil' Thindime, lilting a lacrimose lament, krashes the kwaint konfines of Kokonino Kounty
  63. The Moar You Know. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    wiki sez:
    "Quadroon" is someone of one-quarter black ancestry. A quadroon has a biracial parent (black and white) and one white parent. In other words, the person has one black grandparent and three white grandparents.

    "Octoroon" means a person of fourth-generation black ancestry. An octoroon has one parent who is a quadroon and one white parent. In other words, the person has one black great-grandparent and seven white great-grandparents.

  64. Re:People don't seem to learn from reading, either by Shakrai · · Score: 2, Informative

    Doesn't it bother anyone that the media gets to decide?

    How is the media 'deciding'? He has a majority of the delegates to the convention. I don't think the media repeating this fact is 'deciding' anything.... it's reporting.

    --
    I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
    We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
  65. Louisiana Politics by jmorris42 · · Score: 4, Informative

    > He's dirty as fuck, more corrupt than a louisiana politician.

    Oh I doun't doubt Obama is a fully integrated part of the political machine 'yall got up there, but you Yanks don't know squat about corruption.

    We have a Governor in Federal Prison. He got elected while under indictment, with the endorsement of BOTH major parties. Of course due to our crazy open primaries his opponent was David Duke so it wasn't like we had much of a choice.

    We got us a Congresscritter who got caught with $90,000 in 'cold hard cash' sitting in his freezer. He is still in Congress, reelected by nice margins.

    We got us a blooming idiot down in New Orleans as mayor, prone to foot in mouth like 'ya wouldn't believe. Makes Wright look like a beginner in the whitey hatin' business. And totally incompetent. You want to know why New Orleans didn't really TRY to evacuate, look no farther than Ray and the Ray Nagin Memorial Bus Lot.

    We just got rid of a Governor who was so incompetent her own party made sure she didn't run for reelection.... didn't help em though, Jindal cleaned their clocks anyway, so we have some room for optimism.

    --
    Democrat delenda est
  66. Re:Just So Yo Know What You're Buying This Time by bataras · · Score: 2

    Wow even a slashdot user 137 can post racist articles.

    Quotes from the first article...

    "being a Negro in America"
    "uppity Negro"
    "upstart Negro"
    "Magic Negro"
    "Negro clown Alan Keyes"
    "Negro libido and psyche"
    "and â" especially â" a Negro"

  67. Re:People don't seem to learn from reading, either by Hubbell · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The media decides who gets name recognition. Why do you think Ron Paul did so poorly in the 'scientific' polls? Because he didn't have name recognition due to the media having a near blackout on info about him in the early part of the Republican race, and then once he started wiping the floors with the other candidates at the debates, they did everything they could to make him seem like a lunatic/crazy old man. The media has a monopoly on who gets recognized by the public, and subsequently who gets elected.

  68. Re:Sorry by Moryath · · Score: 2, Informative

    Check this out too:
    http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/local&id=6185320

    Know how much of this guy's money wound up in kickbacks to Obama? Loads!

  69. Re:What kind of message? by Arathrael · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Yep, I see the problem here.

    Every time the guy opens his mouth he accuses white people of committing one horror or another. For instance: "The government lied about inventing the HIV virus as a means of genocide against people of color." 'The government'. Not 'white people'.

    "They purposely infected African American men with syphilis." 'They' being 'the government. Not 'white people.' Incidentally, while the statement above is not entirely accurate, are you familiar with the Tuskegee Study?

    "We have supported state terrorism against the Palestinians and black South Africans" 'We' being 'America'. Not 'white people'. Can you see a pattern emerging here?

    "The government gives them the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes three-strike laws and wants them to sing God Bless America." Do I even have to say it again?

    "Weâ(TM)ve got more black men in prison than there are in college." I don't even know what you were thinking with this one.

    "We believe in white supremacy and black inferiority and believe it more than we believe in God"

    And this one is a statement of belief that America is institutionally racist, which brings us to the crux of the matter.

    Rev. Wright clearly believes the government, and America as a whole, has been (which it certainly has), and still is (which is debatable), institutionally racist. Do you really think that belief, a belief in institutional racism, is in itself racist? Really?

    I'd also question the wisdom in equating 'the government' and 'America' with 'white people'. It's possible to accuse the government of racism without accusing all white people of racism.

    So basically that's zero out of six. Well done!

    the fact that he's attended these sermons for decades certainly doesn't speak well for his character. And again, if you actually check out the sermons, you'll find they're not 'overtly racist'.