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How To Spot E-Vote Tampering?

Precinct Election Judge writes "I am one of the Republican Party Precinct Chairs in Harris County, Texas. Since in 2006 Republican Rick Perry won the Governor's race in my precinct I will be the head election judge at my polling station this November. (My Democratic counterpart will be assistant election judge.) I have read with interest the stories about voting machine hacking, and I want advice from those of you who are experts on what to watch for to make sure there is no fraudulent activity at my precinct during the election. What activities should I look for? Keep in mind my restrictions: I will be at a table in the front of the room with the voter rolls signing people in, I can only approach the voting machines if a voter asks a question or if I have strong reason to believe there is fraudulent activity, the last thing I need is for someone to say the Republicans are trying to keep people from voting! And finally, although each station and voter will be visible from my seat each machine has 'blinders' around it so I will most likely not be able to see the hands of each voter while they are at the station. Thank you in advance for all suggestions."

507 comments

  1. Let me be sure I understand.... by llamalad · · Score: 5, Funny

    So what you're really asking is what sort of evidence of tampering you should be sure to avoid leaving behind?

    1. Re:Let me be sure I understand.... by Kintar1900 · · Score: 1, Troll

      Hey, good job! Way to turn an amusing, cynical comment about politicians in general into a partisan troll. Keep it up! We could use more us-versus-them in the USA! :P

    2. Re:Let me be sure I understand.... by powerlord · · Score: 1, Offtopic
      Go watch The Great McGinty http://www.tcm.com/tcmdb/title.jsp?stid=76901.

      Its a classic and a perfect example of all of that political corruption come to life.

      To pull a few lines from the synopses:

      Dan McGinty's climb to electoral glory begins at a soup kitchen where he is recruited by a crooked politician to vote in various precincts under the names of recently deceased voters for the machine-run mayor. Impressed by McGinty's skill in voting thirty-seven times, as well as his lack of scruples, the political boss welcomes him to the party, and McGinty soon rises from extortion man to alderman.
      --
      This space for rent. All reasonable inquiries will be entertained at proprietors discretion.
    3. Re:Let me be sure I understand.... by MiniMike · · Score: 5, Funny

      And there are activist groups that get busted doing it every year, stuffing registration roles, trotting out thousands of dead voters, etc.

      Ok, I've seen some inattentive election judges, but how do they get away with that?

      Election Judge- Next- you in the wheelbarrow- name?

      Dead Voter- . . . .

      EJ- Name please?

      DV- . . . . . (limb falls off)

      EJ- Sir, your name please!

      Party Lackey crouching behind wheelbarrow- um, (looks at paper) John Smith, no Joe Smith this time...

      EJ- Voting booth #4 Mr. Smith. Please leave your pickaxe and shovel by the door.

    4. Re:Let me be sure I understand.... by initdeep · · Score: 3, Interesting

      its not very hard at all.

      especially if you aren't allowed to ask for any type of verification.

      every time i vote, i laugh at the ability to just tell them my name and then get a ballot and vote.

      nothing ever done to verify i am who i say i am.
      ever.

      so i can go vote as my now deceased grandfather very easily, all i have to do is go to his polling place and tell them i'm him.

      it's actually so shamefully easy, i'd be surprised if even half the votes cast are real.

    5. Re:Let me be sure I understand.... by Martin+Blank · · Score: 1

      At Tuesday's vote in California, I had to provide my name for lookup, then sign my name on the line and print my address as the first thing upon showing up. I then went to another person three feet to my left, who asked me for my name and address, holding the book open just partially so she could see the record for my name. Once I passed that, I was able to get the code to enter for the machine to cast my ballot (I had the choice of paper or electronic, but we have paper trails, so I went with that).

      I'd have been much, much more comfortable with being able to provide my state-issued ID in exchange for the code.

      --
      You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
    6. Re:Let me be sure I understand.... by tjstork · · Score: 1

      Ok, I've seen some inattentive election judges, but how do they get away with that?

      You could probably figure out who the recently dead people are and where they lived based on publicly available information, or, at information available to your friends in government. From there, you just have to show up and vote.

      With that, you don't even need to have your polling place people be crooked. You just need to educate them that every vote counts, and that, they need to extend the benefit of the doubt, so that, when your "dead" people walk into vote, they don't even get questioned for fear of disenfranchisement.

      --
      This is my sig.
    7. Re:Let me be sure I understand.... by Bryansix · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Exactly. Indiana just enacted a Voter ID law and it had no troubles at it's primary to the dismay of the Democrats.

    8. Re:Let me be sure I understand.... by novafluxx · · Score: 1

      Was this an attempt at humor?

    9. Re:Let me be sure I understand.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The first step to reduce tampering is to not be Republican.

    10. Re:Let me be sure I understand.... by TrinSF · · Score: 0, Redundant

      So, are you joking, or should I explain why that's true for you? If it's the latter, here's the deal.

      The ID rule is to prevent disenfranchisement of voters, but when you sign the roster, you're actually signing that under penalty of law, you are who you say you are. Further, there's a method in place to challenge voters, when anyone involved in the process suspects they're not who they say they are.

      Ultimately, though, the freedom of voting you're speaking of is in order to ensure that people are not kept from voting, as they have been in many parts of the country at one time or another.

    11. Re:Let me be sure I understand.... by TrinSF · · Score: 2, Informative

      When you sign your name, if you look at the fine print on the page, you are signing to verify under penalty of law that you are who you say you are. And when you print your address, if you look at the fine print, by printing it you are certifying that's where you live. Because you had to sign a voter registration card at some point in the past in order to be in that roster, your signature is on file somewhere, and should anyone have a question about the votes in your precinct, the signatures in the roster book could be compared to the voter signatures on file.

      Just in case you ever wondered. As I've explained elsewhere, ID's are not required because historically, that's been used as a primary way to disenfranchise voters.

    12. Re:Let me be sure I understand.... by LinuxLuver · · Score: 1

      Yeah. It isn't the voters who will be fiddling the vote tally. It's the officials and anyone else who has access to the systems and tallies.

      --
      Only boring people are ever bored.
    13. Re:Let me be sure I understand.... by ScentCone · · Score: 1

      to ensure that people are not kept from voting

      If I legitimately vote, and the guy next to me (who already voted in his own precinct) is standing there saying he's his neighbor's dead grandfather, and votes contrary to my vote, I've just been effectively disenfranchised. There was just some news out of Connecticut, where a study found roughly 8000 votes had been cast by dead voters. In most cases, those were probably poll workers simply marking off the wrong name on the list (since nobody had been getting the dead people OFF the list, that's easier to do). But the point is you have no way of knowing. This is so simple with a driver's license, a passport - anything. I have no problem with the state issuing someone who has neither of those documents a photo ID as part of their voter regisration, if that's all they've got. But no more than they should be able to just verbally state a name at the poll, they should have to prove who they are when they register to vote in the first place. Otherwise, it's a complete disservice to those that do it legitimately.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    14. Re:Let me be sure I understand.... by jonadab · · Score: 1

      > When you sign your name, if you look at the fine print on the page, you are signing to verify under
      > penalty of law that you are who you say you are. And when you print your address, if you look at the
      > fine print, by printing it you are certifying that's where you live.

      Yes, but what actually prevents someone from certifying it inaccurately?

      > Because you had to sign a voter registration card at some point in the past in order to be in that
      > roster, your signature is on file somewhere, and should anyone have a question about the votes in
      > your precinct, the signatures in the roster book could be compared to the voter signatures on file.

      And just exactly how similar does it have to look? Have you ever watched how people sign their names in this country? Most folks' signatures never quite look the same twice. How are you going to tell the ones that are merely sloppy and careless from the ones that are fraudulent?

      > As I've explained elsewhere, ID's are not required because historically, that's been used as
      > a primary way to disenfranchise voters.

      Historically, maybe, but how would that work now? ID is *way* more universal than voter registration. Among people old enough to vote and in good enough physical shape to potentially get to the polling location, not having ID is *extraordinarily* rare, way down in the 0.00mumble% range. (As far as people who can't get to the poll, what's required to vote absentee is another discussion entirely.)

      I work at a public library. We require adults to have not just ID, but *photo* ID, *plus* proof of address, to get a library card. (For minors without ID, we require them to be accompanied by a parent who has ID, but for voting that would be a non-issue, because the minimum age is 18 last I checked.) To my knowledge, we've never run into a case where an adult couldn't come up with photo ID. We get people who complain about having to trot out to their car and bring it back, and *occasionally* people who have to go home and get it, because they didn't expect to need it. But that's an expectations issue. We also occasionally get people who _just_ moved into the community and don't have proof of address yet, but they do have ID. (The question of whether people should vote in the old location or the new location if they move on or around election day is an interesting one, but it doesn't really have much bearing on whether ID is required, and in any case the important thing is that they only vote in one of those locations, not both.)

      --
      Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
    15. Re:Let me be sure I understand.... by AndersOSU · · Score: 1
      Eleven percent of Americans surveyed in a recent survey commissioned by the Brennan Center for Justice do not have government-issued photo ID. source

      Now since the real goal is to disenfranchise certain groups, you might be interested to know
      • Women are more than twice as likely than men not to have a drivers' license.
      • One of every five senior women does not have a license.

      Of all Americans without a license:
      • One-fifth are 18-24 year olds;
      • Over one-third are seniors;
      • Over 70% are women.


      Requiring photo ID disenfranchises traditionally democratic voters.
    16. Re:Let me be sure I understand.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So what you're really asking is what sort of evidence of tampering you should be sure to avoid leaving behind? What a lousy, cynical comment. It's no wonder nothing gets done with people responding like this to a honest request for information. You should apologize.
    17. Re:Let me be sure I understand.... by jonadab · · Score: 1

      > Eleven percent of Americans surveyed in a recent survey commissioned by the
      > Brennan Center for Justice do not have government-issued photo ID

      There are three kinds of lies. Among other extremely basic mistakes that the study makes, which are obvious after only a brief perusal, it does not include any controls and implicitly assumes that correlation implies causation. The people who did the study were pushing an agenda, not trying to find out the truth.

      > Now since the real goal is to disenfranchise certain groups, you might be interested to know
      > * Women are more than twice as likely than men not to have a drivers' license.
      > * One of every five senior women does not have a license.

      *I* don't have a driver's license, but what does that have to do with anything? Not having a driver's license is not at all the same as not having ID. I have half a dozen different forms of ID, at least four of which are government-issued, and one of those is photo ID. (This last is the one I show people when they ask to see my driver's license. It's not a license to drive, and it says so right on it, but it looks kind of similar, and nobody ever bats an eye.) I pretty much *have* to have ID -- we all do -- because you can't function in our society without it.

      And I don't mean it's not *convenient*. Remember, I don't have a driver's license. I don't need that. I live in a small city, and I can walk anywhere I need to go. It's cheaper than maintaining a car. But ID is... much more necessary. And much less expensive. And much more universal.

      Without ID, you can't do anything. You can't get a job, can't open a bank account, can't write a check at most businesses, can't cash or even deposit a government check (e.g., a tax refund), can't get a library card and take books out from the public library. You'd pretty much have to be Amish -- or permanently bedridden.

      I'll also note that you seem to be arguing against requiring government-issued photo ID. That's a straw man, because it's not what we were saying at all. While I'm not actually *against* requiring that, I also don't think it's necessary. The other poster and I were not arguing in favor of such a stringent requirement; we were only saying that ID should be required, something beyond the voter simply stating his name. We weren't nearly that specific about what kinds of ID should be acceptable. Personally I'd be fine with accepting a combo of birth certificate and social security card (just for example) in lieu of state photo ID or a driver's license.

      But I do think some kind of ID should be required, because none at all makes fraudulent voting *WAY* too easy. (And I don't just mean voting in the name of dead people. There are other ways to vote repeatedly that would be much harder to detect under the current system where we just give a name and vote as that person.)

      --
      Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
    18. Re:Let me be sure I understand.... by Steve+Franklin · · Score: 1

      Cynicism is simply the belief that human behavior is wholly based on self-interest. And that is precisely what the questioner is doing. He is pushing the Republican agenda that the problem with elections is the individual (make them carry picture ID around with them) and not the election officials themselves who engage in mis-allocation of voting machines, machine mediated flipping of votes, and campaign chairs serving as election officials (a la Ohio). That these folks are bold enough to be pushing their agenda on Slashdot in the guise of asking for technical help does not bode well for the forthcoming national elections. Ask yourselves this: Why did he not ask for help preventing wholesale stealing of elections by voting machine companies affiliated with his party ("We will deliver Ohio for George W Bush")?

      --
      Hic iacet Arthurus, rex quondam rexque futurus.
    19. Re:Let me be sure I understand.... by Dyolf+Knip · · Score: 1

      Umm, actually, the Indiana law doesn't go into effect until July, so the problems which we are predicting simply can't have taken place _yet_. In Missouri, which passed a similar law, they've been having lots of troubles with exactly the people we all said they would: legitimate voters who simply lack a photo ID. Hundreds of thousands of them.

      Next time, try to have some passing knowledge of a topic before speaking on it, yah?

      --
      Dyolf Knip
    20. Re:Let me be sure I understand.... by Bryansix · · Score: 1
    21. Re:Let me be sure I understand.... by bishiraver · · Score: 1

      In NYC a cop can stop you for whatever reason, ask for your ID - and if you don't have it, haul you downtown to figure out who you are.

      All for prostitute and drug-dealing busting back in the 90's. So yeah, everyone except - probably - bums, in NYC, have IDs. But NYC isn't indicative of the rest of the country to be certain. (Just another indication of 'Papers, Please' here in the beloved US - of - A.)

    22. Re:Let me be sure I understand.... by Teancum · · Score: 1

      The problem with what you are claiming here about signing the voter registration is a matter of enforcement:

      Can you name any individual who has been prosecuted for "fraudulently signing" voter registration?

      Or more to the point, other than perhaps catching the fraud at the voting booth when it happens during the act itself, how else are you going to catch or prosecute an individual attempting to vote for an in behalf of somebody else? Even if a voting judge catching somebody "in the act" trying to vote for somebody who they are not, it is very hard to actually arrest them if they take off and leave before police or somebody else can perform the arrest.

      The question about ID vs. no ID at the voting booth is what sorts of voting fraud are you preventing?

      Showing ID can prevent non-citizens from voting (don't tell me it doesn't happen... please!) or keep large groups of people from voting multiple times for and in behalf of individuals who should have been removed from the voting books long ago.

      On the flip side, I will admit there are some individuals who can claim U.S. Citizenship (in American elections) and are otherwise completely "off the grid" in terms of having any form of ID. At the same time, in spite of studies to the contrary, I have a very hard time believing that any responsible adult who engages in today's economy in any significant fashion and has to work with government agencies on any level at all would never have a picture ID. For crying out loud, you need a picture ID just to board an airplane.

      Why is the security of the voting booth not as critical as the security of the passenger cabin of an airplane?

    23. Re:Let me be sure I understand.... by TrinSF · · Score: 1

      So, here's my question. Under your ID-only system, is there no absentee balloting? If the concern is preventing people from voting for someone else, I am unclear how you can have absentee balloting -- because that ballot is in someone else's hands. If you still allow absentee balloting with signature, then my impression is that would be a far greater risk vector.

      Here's the deal: in the precincts I have worked, I have no more than 1000 names on the roster. I get between 25 and 250 voters in person (and another 200 or so are permanent absentee voters). Of those, the pollworkers working in the precinct will know by name and face about 80 percent of the voters. The rest we learn over time. I do have inactive voters in the back of my roster -- voters who have not voted in X number of elections, who may have moved away or died and not yet been removed from the rolls. If someone came in to vote one of those inactive names, we'd know. It would be a big thing, and we'd all have a discussion about it, etc. Because the addresses in my roster are nearby and neighbors of my poll workers, it wouldn't go unnoticed. By the way, so far, I have never had a single inactive voter come in to vote. If I had, I'd remember, because it's so unusual.

      Do I think that not requiring ID is perfect? No. But I think it's better than turning away voters, ever.

      And I urge you to become a poll worker. Get your hands in the sausage. :-)

    24. Re:Let me be sure I understand.... by ScentCone · · Score: 1

      In my precinct? I've never seen the same poll workers twice, and I've never recognized any of them, ever. I've never seen a familiar face in line at the polls (among the other voters). I've been voting consistently in local, state, and federal elections for over 25 years. 15 of those in the same precinct. As for absentee voting: that strikes me as something we should handle with about the same grace that you'd handle correspondence with your bank. And of course, those all leave a nice paper trail, and can be easily reviewed/challenged if it comes to it. How would anyone who is a citizen, and has registered to vote, not be able to show some form of ID? How would someone doing something as important as voting considering themselves up to the sober civic task that it is, and consider themselves ill-used if they're not willing to protect their own precious vote by embracing a process that at least checks to make sure it's relatively honest? If someone shows up unprepared to actually show who they are, let them cast a provisional ballet that is only taken into account if the math shows it must be - and then it can be done under scrutiny.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    25. Re:Let me be sure I understand.... by TrinSF · · Score: 1

      So, why aren't you working as a pollworker? If you're truly concerned, get involved.

    26. Re:Let me be sure I understand.... by ScentCone · · Score: 1

      So, why aren't you working as a pollworker? If you're truly concerned, get involved.

      Because I would have absolutely no way of knowing if the rotating crop of thousands of strangers are who they say they are. With no actual provision for finding out who they are as they state a name on a printed list, I would no means by which to actually act on my concern. We have a highly transient population here. If I did poll work for years, I might be able to help by recognizing a handful of people out of thousands. That's not a system to avoid abuse. Simply having registered voters present an ID is a system.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    27. Re:Let me be sure I understand.... by TrinSF · · Score: 1

      So? You can still help, by being a pollworker. So, that's one excuse. What are your others? If you care about voting, if elections matter, prove it. Become a pollworker.

    28. Re:Let me be sure I understand.... by Martin+Blank · · Score: 1

      I have a right to vote, and I exercise it with each election that comes along. I also have a right to expect that the election will be free and fair, and that means that I don't want people claiming to be who they are not, taking advantage of the fact that ID is not checked.

      As for NYC, a cop shouldn't be able to ask for ID without a warrant or documentable probable cause. I seem to recall that the courts ruled in favor of police in a case brought by a Nevada man who refused to show his ID upon demand to police.

      --
      You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
    29. Re:Let me be sure I understand.... by chris-j6n · · Score: 1

      I feel the voter id law is wrong... -chris http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=26725 The well-publicized nuns in South Bend, who were reportedly unable to vote during this year's primary election due to not having proper photo ID indeed had the opportunity under the law to cast a provisional ballot and have their votes count by producing ID within ten days. This is eight days longer than Jimmy Carter even suggested when the Carter-Baker Commission suggested photo ID was needed in the polling to boost election integrity and participation. Sadly, they all waived this right to participate in the election process.

  2. Do you have a paper trail? by bit+trollent · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Does your E-Vote equipment produce a voter verifieable paper trail?

    If it doesn't have a paper trail, ask yourself why.

    1. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by FredFredrickson · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yeah, without a paper trail, the question you should be asking is - how can you spot E-Vote integrity? The answer is: You can't.

      --
      Belief? Hope? Preference?The Existential Vortex
    2. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Does your paper voting equipment produce a voter verifiable paper trail? Since it doesn't, we don't really have to ask ourselves why.

      Your ballot gets sucked into a machine for "counting" with nothing left to you should that machine decide to fuck you whether it's paper or not.

    3. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by radarjd · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Does your E-Vote equipment produce a voter verifieable paper trail?

      What does a paper trail do on its own? Couldn't the software falsify the paper trail? Who does the verifying and who verifies the verifyers? Let's say the software is open source and auditable (and competent, trustworthy people do the auditing), how do you ensure that untampered software is on the machine?

      If it doesn't have a paper trail, ask yourself why.

      I could come with several reasons, ranging from innocuous to stupid to malicious to criminal. It could be that a paper trail which simply prints out the votes in hard copy adds nothing to the security of the system. It could be that the company constructing the machine never thought of it. It could be that whatever people control the machines (naturally, the Illuminati) want to (and are able to) fix the election, but aren't competent enough to print the fixed results from the machine.

      My guess is something along the lines that secure elections are really difficult to do. We're not there yet, but we never have been. Electronic machines bring in new difficulties than what we've dealt with in the past, but it's not like election fraud is a new thing, or any less despicable now.

      In response to the original article, I would say the best that you can do is watch your assistant, make sure he or she watches you. Other than that, I'm not sure what you can do given the equipment that's prevalent.

      I think there will always be some level of trust involved in voting. I think most advocates are presently arguing that the trust we currently place in the machines is too high, and that the machines should be put in place with the idea that they are untrustworthy.

    4. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by ePhil_One · · Score: 3, Insightful

      What does a paper trail do on its own? Couldn't the software falsify the paper trail?

      The voter should have an opportunity to verify the paper trail. He is the only one who can confirm the paper trail recorded his vote correctly. A shutter system could easily reveal only the voters's record to him. A comparison of the sign in rolls reveals that no "extra" votes were added.

      --
      You are in a maze of twisted little posts, all alike.
    5. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      IMO the paper trail would only be worthwhile if the voter somehow got to verify it as it scrolled behind a clear window and then scrolled out of view or was hidden to prevent the next voter from seeing your vote.

    6. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by SatanicPuppy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Ideally the machine should spit out a paper confirming your choices, and you should drop that in a box on the way out the door, after you verify it. Generating a piece of paper that the voter never sees is pointless.

      Now, you're probably thinking, "That sounds like a paper ballot system? Why would we pay all this money for these fancy machines when we have to basically fall back on a paper ballot system to make sure they're reliable?"

      And that is the real question.

      --
      ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
    7. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by Sylver+Dragon · · Score: 1

      What does a paper trail do on its own?

      By itself, nothing, but it is part of a system for adding some level of checking.

      Couldn't the software falsify the paper trail?

      Yes, but it becomes easier to spot.

      Who does the verifying and who verifies the verifyers?

      Here's the crux of thew whole system I mentioned:
      Does your E-Vote equipment produce a voter verifieable paper trail?

      A voter verifiable paper trail doesn't just spit a piece of paper into a locked box. It spits out a piece of paper which the voter can read over and then drop in a locked box. The system relies on each voter knowing how they voted, being able to recognize that the piece of paper is wrong, and reporting it.

      The biggest hole in the system is that the locked box needs to be kept, and transported in such a way to ensure the integrity of its contents. The usual method for this is that no side in the election is ever give unsupervised access to the box. Same as we deal with paper ballots at the moment.

      Also, this system assumes that the paper ballots are counted at some point, and that discrepancies with the computer count are reported.

      Sure, there are holes and ways in which the system could be attacked. But it beats the hell out of the votes being counted by a black box, and no verification happening. As with any security, it's never going to be 100% perfect, the goal is to make breaking it so difficult that it becomes impractical with the resources at hand.

      --
      Necessity is the mother of invention.
      Laziness is the father.
    8. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by statemachine · · Score: 1

      Couldn't the software falsify the paper trail? Why? The paper trail is verified by the voter at the machine. If the electronic vote tally didn't match the paper trail tally, it would invalidate the result. A lot of invalidations would likely call into question the precinct or even election. It would be like a burglar intentionally setting off the alarm when he's already in the house.

      Sure, you need to trust the voter to verify the paper trail at the machine, but you also need to trust the voter to take voting seriously anyway.
    9. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      in all fairness, the OP wants to make the best of a bad system. help him rather than burning him down.

    10. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by Gyga · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I like my backwards town for this reason. "Here's a magic marker, here's a piece of paper. Here's a sticker. There are the booths. Ask if you need help."

      --
      I don't preview or spellcheck.
    11. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by veganboyjosh · · Score: 1

      Why would we pay all this money for these fancy machines

      Isn't it mostly for quick/reliable/cheap* results?

      *Generally speaking, you only get two.

    12. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by Shagg · · Score: 1

      Now, you're probably thinking, "That sounds like a paper ballot system? Why would we pay all this money for these fancy machines when we have to basically fall back on a paper ballot system to make sure they're reliable?"

      Exactly.

      Having a computer help the voter fill out their ballot is actually not a bad idea.
      Having the computer count the ballots, with absolutely no way to verify them, is completely insane.

      --
      Unix is user friendly, it's just selective about who its friends are.
    13. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by TubeSteak · · Score: 1

      Now, you're probably thinking, "That sounds like a paper ballot system? Why would we pay all this money for these fancy machines when we have to basically fall back on a paper ballot system to make sure they're reliable?" To avoid hanging chads.
      That's what kicked off the whole E-Voting revolution. Remember?

      The best would be an e-voting machine that
      A) spits out a machine readable ballot -- this is what counts
      B) maintains its own electronic count -- this is for comparison

      And of course, you hand count some random percentage of the machine counted ballots.
      Just because you can't be too sure.

      Or the USA could just copy India's method, since it seems to work.
      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    14. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by TrinSF · · Score: 1, Interesting

      In our county, one of two in California re-certified to use electronic voting, the reason we have them is not for "quick/reliable/cheap" results. They're no faster than the previous voting system (which used paper ballots tabulated by machines at the polling place), and they were certainly more expensive.

      The reason we have them is to fully enfranchise *all* voters. Every voter should be allowed to vote with every voting right given to us. Previously, voters with some disabilities had to have assisted voting, which meant that they had to have someone else read them the ballot, or mark the ballot, or otherwise participate in the voting process with them. We have electronic voting in order to comply with election and disability laws that previously were not being enforced. My goal -- and that of the people I work with -- is fully enfranchising every voter.

    15. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by wfeick · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I'd like to see a system where the computer accepts your input, verifies the integrity of your ballot (e.g. you haven't selected more than one person in the same race, etc.) and prints out the ballot you'll be casting for you to see. Having approved it, but without being allowed to touch it, the ballot is dropped into the box and also added to a matching electronic tally.

      When the polls close, the two totals should match. Just to be sure, we select a small percentage of the devices at random and verify the two totals do indeed match by manually counting the paper ballots. Devices that have statistically different results from their adjacent devices would also be automatically hand verified. Finally, we give each party a set number of devices that they can choose to have included in the manual recount.

      Given this statistical sampling, we'd have timely and verifiable results while only needing to count on the order of 1% of the actual ballots.

    16. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by TrinSF · · Score: 5, Interesting

      And that's exactly what we have in my county, San Mateo County in California. The voter votes on the electronic system. The system then prints out a paper listing of his ballot, which displays for that voter. The voter must then physically approve that paper display as matching his/her vote choices. Only after the voter has verified the paper matches his/her intent, then the voter finally casts his/her ballot.

      The paper ballots are on a roll that is held in a secure paper trail unit, which is sealed with a uniquely coded seal that cannot be disturbed from the time the unit is certified prior to election day until the unit is returned for verification and tallying. If the seal is broken or disturbed, that unit is immediately reported for auditing, etc.

      When I am assisting voters, I make sure to highlight that the paper vote that displays is the "paper trail" they have heard about, and that to ensure their vote's integrity, they should be careful to seriously check the vote and verify it matches.

    17. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by veganboyjosh · · Score: 2, Interesting

      That's a big (and very noble) goal. Where do you start with a project like that? I realize you're not building the thing from scratch (most likely), but I'm imagining a sort of "worst case scenario" voter, who's got several disabilities, who wants to vote, and you have to design the machine/process around this person. Would you mind discussing some of what goes into enfranchising every voter?
      For example, how would you enable a blind and deaf person to vote, using electronic voting? How does the machine verify the vote with such a voter?

    18. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by SatanicPuppy · · Score: 4, Informative

      Horse. Shit.

      Where I live the requirement for electronic voting machines means that poorer areas, who can't afford enough of them have lines that routinely take hours to get through, which damn well disenfranchises people every damn election...Lot of poor people have jobs that are real understanding of a 4-hour "vote break".

      Don't even try to sell it on that grounds, because there are people all over this country whose franchise would be a lot easier to exercise if they could just use a pencil and a piece of paper.

      --
      ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
    19. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by TrinSF · · Score: 1

      Sucks for anyone who has a disability, though. They don't get to exercise their legal voting rights, because your system does not allow them anonymous, private voting.

    20. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by Sancho · · Score: 1

      Also, this system assumes that the paper ballots are counted at some point, and that discrepancies with the computer count are reported. I'm not sure that's going to be a good assumption. The same people who are likely to have access to all of the ballots, electronic and paper, are going to be the ones doing the counting. If there's fraud, it's likely to be just as easily hidden.

      The only real way to solve this problem is with actual accountability. That means the end of anonymous voting. As a country, we need to decide which evil is lesser--ballot fraud or voter coercision.

      There are ways to mitigate the latter. As long as ballot-counting is done by a small group of people, it's pretty hard to mitigate the former.
    21. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by Sancho · · Score: 1

      Your example just provides a way to DOS the election (at best) and hand it to one candidate on a silver platter (at worst.) Do you think that destroying a few paper ballots that all have the name of the other team's candidate in order to invalidate an precinct which was going to that candidate wouldn't happen?

    22. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by SatanicPuppy · · Score: 1

      The whole "chad" thing was already a trip down stupid street. Print out a piece of paper with a big fricking box next to every name, give someone a writing utensil, and tell them to make a mark in that box.

      What's the worst case scenario? They make to big a mark, and it's unclear? The same thing that would happen with those big stupid machines? At least with the paper, you'd know you screwed it up.

      Waste of time. And it's not like you can't make the same stupid mistake on a touch screen. I mean, if you don't go back and check, you don't go back and check. Nothing is going to prevent that.

      --
      ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
    23. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by TrinSF · · Score: 3, Informative

      The voting machines we use are the Hart E-Slate machines, which are coincidentally the only machines that have been re-certified in California so far. Alas, I'm not a designer of election equipment -- I'm a precinct inspector, which means I'm in charge of a single voting precinct. I would suggest inquiring to Hart directly about the planning involved in voting systems. What I can tell you is that we have multi-inputs, including sip-and-puff, and multiple outputs. My impression is that we can, with attachments, provide braille-based output and verification for voters, but I haven't had to do so thus far. (And such attachments are expensive enough that they are not provided to every precinct and every voting unit.) However, I have had sip-and-puff and blind voters, who all had previously been unable to vote without assistance.

    24. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by statemachine · · Score: 1

      Which is nothing different than any previous election.

    25. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

      Now, you're probably thinking, "That sounds like a paper ballot system? Why would we pay all this money for these fancy machines when we have to basically fall back on a paper ballot system to make sure they're reliable?"

      And that is the real question.


      To be a devil's advocate:

      1) To avoid the "hanging chad" problem, that is, ballots that look Okto the voter, but clog or are rejected by the voting machines/people that do the counting.
      2) To avoid the "butterfly ballot/I didn't mean to vote for Pat Robertson!" problem of confusingly-printed ballots. Relevant example: http://www.infoplease.com/images/cig/supreme-court/1592571492_img_371.png The computer systems can show the candidate you voted for prominently before submitting the vote, thus helping accuracy.
      3) The computer UI can easily be translated into many more languages than paper ballots, and if you translate into a language that turns out to not be used, you don't waste a ton of paper.
      4) The computer UI is more accessible by 'partially disabled' voters, and thus requires less assistance rendered by voting officials, and thus reduces the chance of a assisting voting official influencing the vote. (Obviously, they aren't 100% accessible, but they're a lot better than a big lever.)

      I'm sure there's other reasons; possibly cost as well. Fix voting computers if you want, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater; there are a lot of good reasons to use computers.

    26. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by TrinSF · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I'm sorry that's true where you live. I know that when I was growing up, that was certainly a problem, and I know it continues to be. In my county, ALL precincts use the same equipment. There is no variance in equipment depending on area or affluence.

      One of the things that happens to me when I work elections is that my voters will say they don't understand why we do this or that thing, because so many of them have never experienced voting disenfranchisement. I always cheerfully explain that while I'm glad they have no experience with it, that the laws and procedures exist because in many places, people don't have the luxury that my voters have. I grew up in the south, and I marched in voting rallies in support of voting rights. I understand what you're speaking of, but I don't think it follows that because *your* county or state isn't using our procedures, our reasons for using the procedures aren't valid.

    27. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by Tuoqui · · Score: 1

      Yes it does... Though most voting places have individuals who are supposedly sworn to secrecy about the vote to help them. I'd assume this secrecy is on par with say Doctor-Patient or Lawyer-Client privilege in the eyes of the court.

      --
      09F911029D74E35BD84156C5635688C0
      +2 Troll is Slashdot's way of saying groupthink is confused
    28. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by TheMCP · · Score: 2, Informative

      I'll go one further. If it doesn't produce paper ballots which are readable by the voter to ensure they reflect the voter's intent, and which are counted rather than a direct electronic tally, the system can be hacked. Period.

      As a computer scientist and programmer I have 0% confidence in any system which doesn't produce a paper audit trail, but even if it does, if the voter can't personally validate that the audit trail for their vote reflects their intent, the system could still just be producing a phony audit trail.

    29. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by TrinSF · · Score: 1

      But the law doesn't say you're entitled to be assisted by someone sworn to secrecy. I mean, do you want to have to tell me what you want to vote, and then have me mark that down for you? What if I'm your neighbor? What if I'm your mother? Even if I'm sworn to not reveal votes, would you be comfortable if that was *always* the way you had to vote? The law says you're entitled to a private vote. Hence all the work on systems to create better assisted-voting options.

    30. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by ePhil_One · · Score: 1

      Do you think that destroying a few paper ballots ... wouldn't happen?

      Destroy the paper ballots, the electronic records still exist. With a paper audit trail you now have to attack both systems, and do so so that your corrupted results match, else a flag is generated and an investigation starts. If nobody knows the results are bad, there's no investiagtion, and no need to cover your tracks (which gets harder the more complicated the system becomes.

      No security system will ever be perfect, thats no reason to through up your hands and leave all your doors unlocked.

      --
      You are in a maze of twisted little posts, all alike.
    31. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by Stradivarius · · Score: 1

      It's not all that clear that paper is any more reliable. You get into issues like hanging or dimpled chads, or ballots in which two mutually exclusive choices were checked - maybe the voter was an idiot, but maybe the ballot was modified fraudulently to prevent identification of its voter's true choice.

      What people are concerned about with electronic machines is that the machines are black boxes that could be either buggy or malicious. I.e. the counting machines are untrusted. So why not employ the same technique we employ when counting paper ballots using untrusted humans? When counting paper votes, both the Republican and Democratic observer must agree on the ballot's marking. So why not use two or more counting machines from independent vendors?

      This could be performed much more rapidly and cheaply than using human counters of paper ballots. One such approach would be to employ a "dumb" input device (e.g. a simple keypad which is ignorant of what a numbered choice represents) whose output is sent to multiple counting devices provided by independent vendors. Having 2 counting machines would allow you to detect the presence of errors. Having 3 such counting machines would allow you to correct errors by majority vote. The odds that 2 different machines running different software from different vendors make the same mistake are pretty low. And the system would allow you to evaluate the accuracy of different vendor's products.

      Obviously there are some details to be worked out (how are the ballot choices displayed to the user, etc). But with a little engineering work to specify the required interfaces, you could have a pretty reliable system even without having to completely trust the individual subsystems.

    32. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by Theoboley · · Score: 0

      Isn't it mostly for quick/reliable/cheap* results? *Generally speaking, you only get two. just like the women in california? /troll lol
      --
      Stupidity only gets you so far, then you've gotta try
    33. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by QuantumRiff · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Wait, your not seeing clearly. You see, gerrymandering districts is getting harder and harder each time they try to do it. What you are describing fixes that little problem... (sadly, i'm not so sure this is sarcasm..)

      --

      What are we going to do tonight Brain?
    34. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by snilloc · · Score: 2, Interesting
      My county uses a fill in the dot Scantron/SAT-style ballot. The voter inserts his completed ballot into the machine. If the machine detects an over-vote the voter has the option to either get his ballot back (and have it destroyed by election officials)and get another ballot or accept the flawed ballot knowing that the over-voted race will not be counted.

      Automatic paper trail. Over-vote detection.

      (One touch-screen machine per precinct is available for handicapped individuals. Not having voted on it myself, I don't know the particulars.)

    35. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by mdmkolbe · · Score: 1

      That is actually a weak paper trail. Such machines must provide a way for the voter to "redo" their vote if the machine recorded the vote wrong. There is nothing in these machines to keep them from "redoing" the voter's vote after the voter has left.

      Of course too many redo's might raise suspicion, but changing only one out of every 20 votes would be enough to swing most elections and even if you are suspicious you can't prove it since the paper trail has already been tampered with.

    36. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by neil-ngc · · Score: 1

      Ideally the machine should spit out a paper confirming your choices, and you should drop that in a box on the way out the door, after you verify it.
      Actually, no. Many voters won't verify the print out in this way.

      Touchscreen voting is inherently insecure for this reason. If the machine is spitting out wrong information, it will mostly go uncaught. If someone does catch it, it will be fixed and "the system works" will be the story.

      Touchscreen is the wrong way to go. Secure e-vote systems start with a machine-readable paper ballot (one a little more advance than punchcards, which are prone to hanging chads...modern systems I've seen use an arrow where you fill in the black spot next to your candidate...actually quite challenging to screw up unintentionally). Thus the 'e-vote' is really just computer assisted counting.

      The second step, with all e-vote systems, whether touchscreen with receipt or machine-readable ballot, is that the paper trail must not just exist, it must be used. This doesn't mean hand counting every vote, which would defeat the purpose, but it does mean an audit system to ensure the results line up with a sample set of sufficient size.
    37. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by Alpha830RulZ · · Score: 1

      Why would we pay all this money for these fancy machines when we have to basically fall back on a paper ballot system to make sure they're reliable?

      Because if you have an electronic system that you trust, you can tabulate the results immediately, and do some other useful cross checks quickly (number of votes compared to number of voters registered, etc).

      While I understand the caution of the /. community on this issue, I am eager to see the country get to an electronic approach. Further, I'd like to see it distributed and delivered via the web, to increase voter convenience and thus participation. I fully realize the challenges involved, but I don't think we should cease trying to do something, just because it's hard.

      --
      I was taught to respect my elders. The trouble is, it's getting harder and harder to find some.
    38. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As a Texas voter, this is exactly why I use the paper option available in my voting location. We are given the option to use the old paper, fill in the bubble ballet. I hope this tradition continues!!

    39. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by sbeckstead · · Score: 0

      I'd like to see a system where the computer accepts your input, verifies the integrity of your ballot (e.g. you haven't selected more than one person in the same race, etc.) and prints out the ballot you'll be casting for you to see. Having approved it, but without being allowed to touch it, the ballot is dropped into the box and also added to a matching electronic tally.

      When the polls close, the two totals should match. Just to be sure, we select a small percentage of the devices at random and verify the two totals do indeed match by manually counting the paper ballots. Devices that have statistically different results from their adjacent devices would also be automatically hand verified. Finally, we give each party a set number of devices that they can choose to have included in the manual recount.

      Given this statistical sampling, we'd have timely and verifiable results while only needing to count on the order of 1% of the actual ballots.

      Given that each tally in each machine is preloaded with a negative number of votes for just the right candidates you would never detect this anomaly and we would have a nicely fixed election. Thanks, I'll take old fashioned paper. It's harder to hack and easier to catch them at hacking it. And in a recount you have actual ballots and signatures to count.
    40. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by jedidiah · · Score: 0, Troll

      If you have no one that can help you vote in this sort of situation
      than you are worse problem.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    41. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      We have had this ability to "count the vote immediately" since the 80s.

      Some scantron machines and some modems is all you need.

      You make it sound like this sort of thing hadn't been done before.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    42. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by TrinSF · · Score: 4, Informative

      If the voter cancels their ballot at that point, the vote is cancelled, they're assigned a new machine, and that ballot is marked invalid. It's actually a really big deal, which is why voters approve their ballot three times. Once before it prints to the paper copy, again to approve the paper copy, and a final time to count the vote.

      BTW, changing one in 20 votes would not be enough to swing elections for us -- I have between 50 and 200 voters in elections -- and more than double that cast absentee ballots -- and the margins in their votes tends to be very large, more than 20-30 percent. They're pretty homogenous in their voting habits. But hey, it's the Bay Area, it's like that.

    43. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by jmorris42 · · Score: 1

      > Given this statistical sampling, we'd have timely and verifiable results ...

      Horror story waiting to happen. Without thinking I can see ways to break it.

      Rig the 'random' sample of machines to check. That only leaves the machines picked by the other party. Unless they get a fairly high number your odds of getting caught are low. And even if you get caught you can still win. Since the plan was to only count a trivial sampling of ballots the recount won't happen instantly, leaving plenty of time to stuff the paper ballots to match the machine totals.

      But this all just wanking over conspiracy theories anyway. Democrats have known how to steal elections for over a century and it doesn't generally involve tampering with voting machines.

      No, this guy needs to realize he is in the best place to prevent fraud already and concentrate on doing his job and not get distracted by the voting machines. When dead people (party hacks running from polling place to polling place with a handful of IDs) make it past the sign in sheet the fraud has already taken place, the machines can work perfectly and still elect the wrong person. The second opportunity is before and after the polls open/close. Odds are any machine tampering will happen at that point, so be alert.

      --
      Democrat delenda est
    44. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by tedshultz · · Score: 1

      My town works similar to the grandparents (you mark a paper ballot that is automatically read by a machine). If you have a disability they have a few booths that help you mark your ballot (it has a machine that reads your choices (into headphone), magnifies the ballot and prints it out for you. I always use the automatic booth because it also checks you ballot for mistakes (warns you if you over or under vote).

    45. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by Martin+Blank · · Score: 1

      That's exactly how they work on several (if not all) of the systems approved in California. Until you press the button to submit the vote for the print run, you can only see blank paper. You then see the ballot as it's printed so that you can verify the results. After that, you confirm or deny that it's what you want, and there's another short print run to indicate the validity of the vote. If you're satisfied, you're done. If not, you either start over or make changes (I'm not sure which -- I've never had to edit my selections after submitting).

      --
      You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
    46. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by wfeick · · Score: 1

      I think you misunderstood what I wrote. If you preloaded the electronic version with anything other than counts of 0, the randomly chosen machines for the audit would have their electronic and paper versions disagree. I'm assuming somebody verifies that the box for the paper versions is empty when the polls open, just like they do for paper ballots today..

      The idea is to actually have a verifiable paper ballot, but you don't need to count and verify all of the paper ballots due to the enough random sampling to convince people the electronic versions are correct.

      This is just like how you verify the quality of the goods coming out of a factory where sampling is a destructive action. By checking a small but sufficient random sample, you have a reasonable estimate of failure rates in the products you ship to customers.

    47. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by blair1q · · Score: 1

      The value of this system is that there is no ambiguity in the marking.

      Hanging chads, stray pencil marks, incompletely filled bubbles, are all unnecessary sources of error -- and, as we saw in 2000, enough ambiguity to turn the election on its head*.

      The electronic recording also makes the initial tally all but instantaneous. Elections can be certified within minutes of the closing of the polls. Challenges to the result can be recounted much more quickly as well, with no haggling over what a ballot says, so long as the paper copies of the ballots are protected from damage.

      * - Various studies conducted after the election showed varying results, but the one study that used the standards in place at the time of the election showed Gore got more valid votes. The Republicans' (possibly illegal) delaying tactics (those people storming the counting room were all GOP staffers, not the general public of Florida - you can see John Bolton clearly in one picture) and their majority on the Supreme Court did indeed induce a result counter to the wishes of the voters.

    48. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by Martin+Blank · · Score: 1

      I liked the punchcard system. There was something satisfyiung to that feeling of the machine punching the hole that reinforced the fact that I'd just used one of my most precious rights. The electronic systems now used here are OK, but they don't really measure up to the old systems in that way.

      --
      You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
    49. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by DavidTC · · Score: 2, Insightful

      First of all, the law does say you're entitled to a person sworn to secrecy filling out your vote for you. I don't know why you just imagined it doesn't. Anyone who shows up at the voting booth is legally entitled to whatever help is needed to get them to vote, by people who are legally prohibited from disclosing their ballot.

      Secondly, I'd actually like an explanation of how a visual touch screen helps blind or disabled people to vote? Oh, right, it doesn't.

      The thing to help blind people vote is an entirely different system where they listen to a recording and touch the screen at specific times, which could be done much cheaper if we weren't also trying to do sighted voting with it also.

      Thirdly, there are always going to be people so disabled they cannot operate a specific system in order to vote.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    50. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by mdmkolbe · · Score: 1

      Could you elaborate on how the vote is canceled? It seems to me that if the vote is canceled by a mechanism in the machine there is nothing to prevent the machine from secretly canceling the vote. How do you get around that problem?

      Personally, I can only think of two solutions. The first is to make that mechanism so noisy that everyone would notice if the machine did it after the voter walked.

      The second (which I think you may be implying is done but I'm not sure) is to keep a hand-tallied count of the number of vote redo's by requiring the voter to come to you to perform a redo and correlate that with the number of redo's the machine actually performed.

    51. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by Hutz · · Score: 1

      Not only that, but the law in most places allows you to bring your own helper with you. You don't have to trust the government provided helper, you can bring a trusted family member or friend. And remember, the secret ballot is a right, not a responsibility. You are allowed to tell people who you voted for. It's just that no one can make you say.

    52. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by v1 · · Score: 1

      That's similar to another method I had imagined, but in another direction. I'd like to receive a receipt at the voting machine with a randomly generated number on it which is my passkey. Then at home I can login to the govt website and enter my passkey and confirm that my vote was recorded and counted as I made it.

      But both your method and mine have one problem. One reason for the "secret ballot" is to prevent people from forcing or pressuring you to vote in a certain way, or to sell your vote. The only way to prevent these things from happening is to make it impossible to prove how you voted after the fact. Someone could pay you $10 to vote for their candidate, you could go in and vote for the other guy, and they would have no way to verify you 'earned' your $10. So this prevents anyone from effectively being able to buy votes.

      Another example, lets say you work for a small company and the owner holds a private meeting and demands all his employees vote for his man or you're fired. You're expected to bring your receipt on the day after to verify your vote. Again the secret ballot makes this impossible to pull off.

      Now of course both of these issues are catchable, but that's not the point. The point of the secret ballot is so that these can't be issues in the first place.

      What I'd personally like to know is what accounts for discrepancies in recounts? I mean, if the initial vote tallies to 215 / 210, and we recount and now it's 214/212, and then we recount again and now it's 213/214, (as we saw awhile ago...) why doesn't this cause the whole process to get frozen and some serious digging to get started? If you recount, and the numbers MATCH, ok stick with it. If they don't match, there's no reason to say which one is more correct. Just because one was made more recently does not make it more accurate. Until you have identified the cause that one (or both) counts are mistaken I can't trust the accuracy of your count. The simple fact that every time they recount they can get different answers leaves me at a loss for words.

      --
      I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
    53. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by DavidTC · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Oh, no, it's not 'poor areas'.

      It's poor urban areas. I have lived in middle-class urban areas, lower-class urban areas, and lower-class rural areas.

      In the first, the lines are maybe 30 minutes, because they have plenty of machines and whatnot.

      In the middle, thanks to laws that say you have to have a voting precinct within walking distance (theoretically, it's about five miles I think), each precinct has only two machines, but it's only serving a few hundred people total, so there's no one in line at all.

      It's the latter that has five machines and possibly a hundred people in line. I waited a damn four hours to vote in 2000 in Marietta, a poor, mostly minority suburb of Atlanta. During that time, at least 20 people ahead of me dropped out of line, and I imagine more left the second they saw how long it was. (I, luckily, was a college student, and could waste all day in line with a book.)

      And I went through during the midday. I can just imagine how it went after five o'clock.

      And no one's going to convince me that it's a coincidence that 'poor urban voter' normally means 'Democratic voter'.

      Don't even try to sell it on that grounds, because there are people all over this country whose franchise would be a lot easier to exercise if they could just use a pencil and a piece of paper.

      Exactly, you pro-'electronic voting' morons. If you want to install electronic voting machines for blind people, feel free, but you can fuck off and die for taking away pencil and paper so people in poor urban areas can actually vote.

      Electronic voting, as stated, is a solution to the very minor problem of disenfranchised blind people. One that could be solved other ways, or just by giving them a single machine. Note, this machine could be a great deal simpler than existing electronic voting machines, because blind people do not need a screen or a touch pad. They can't even use those! They need a headset and a several switches. Or, hell, a joystick-like device to scroll through the names said through the headphone and pick the right one.(1)

      But installing machines for everyone causes at least two serious problems...the one in this post, because machines are always limited, and the other, equally serious one of uncatchable vote tampering, which any computer scientist can see, as computers can easily lie. (Yes, in theory, this problem applies if anyone is using the machines, but in practice the number of blind voters is so small that any tampering would be easily noticed.)

      1) You know what might be really interesting? Using telephones. Not the actual phone system, but using one (with a headset so they don't have to keep holding it) as the interface device. They're cheap, and blind people, like every American except possibly deaf ones (Who luckily can use paper ballots), already know how to operate them. Have a little voice mail-type system.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    54. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And here's a possible answer: you can make the ballots all standardized so they can be easily counted by a machine. In fact, it could be a government-approved ballot format, so that you can mix different ballot-producing and ballot-counting from different vendors, which reduce the risk of collusion. And if you really don't trust your ballot-counting machines, you always have access to the standardized ballot to do a true recount.

    55. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      You know what might be really interesting? Using telephones. Not the actual phone system, but using one (with a headset so they don't have to keep holding it) as the interface device. They're cheap, and blind people, like every American except possibly deaf ones (Who luckily can use paper ballots), already know how to operate them. Have a little voice mail-type system.

      I was actually thinking of using real telephones, and they'd be hooked to a computer somehow that would decode the tones, but realized right after posting that, thanks to VoIP, there are all sorts of 'fake phones' for the computer that are really just USB audio combined with USB input devices that send keystrokes in. So it would be very cheap, maybe 10-20 dollars to present a 'telephone keypad' with a headset hooked to it. (Which is, as I pointed out, much cheaper than having a damn touch-screen monitor.)

      Also, why'd I get the traditional slashdot comment interface for the parent, but the AJAX one for this comment?

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    56. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or, if you see the paper trail is correct, the machine prints that the vote has been verified on the paper and the voter checks that. It doesn't see that complicated. If you cancel your vote, the machine prints that the vote has been canceled on the paper and that gets verified.

    57. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by radarjd · · Score: 1

      The whole "chad" thing was already a trip down stupid street. Print out a piece of paper with a big fricking box next to every name, give someone a writing utensil, and tell them to make a mark in that box.

      I think you underestimate the impact that the 2000 election had on people's opinions of paper voting. While it does seem like the punchouts were a bad idea, the point behind them was to make a voter's intention unambiguous and clear. You punch the hole, and you're done. Tallying the votes was also easier (in theory).

      In practice, it might have cost one person the presidency of the United States (probably not, but it might have). That affected the course of the entire world for eight years. I think that makes it fairly understandable why people want trustworthy electronic systems, but in the rush the emphasis has been put on "electronic systems" rather than "trustworthy".

    58. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We use the same exact machines in Santa Clara County, California. We also print 2 copies of the paper record when done, on a different printer.

      Even better? When a voter comes, we automatically hand them a paper ballot. Unless they specifically ask for the voting machine, we do not even mention it. The voting machine itself sits about 2 to 3 meters away from the paper voting booths, but it's quite inconspicuous and is unnoticed by the voters.

      The Tuesday election had an extremely low turnout. (statewide I think it was ~25% turnout? Lowest ever for any statewide election... shows how pointless this election was. They could have grouped it with the presidential primary or waited for November...) We were supplied about 900 ballots for our precinct, and under 60 people showed up. Of course, over half the voters have registered as permanent vote-by-mail voters, but I personally don't know how many of those people actually voted.

      I'm glad our county is a bit more sane. Although we do offer voting machines, we do not mention them.

      Captcha: unopened

    59. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by joocemann · · Score: 1

      I have a disability and I vote in secrecy. What are you talking about? Maybe you should be more specific about what disabilities would force such a situation. Disability is a word, not a lifestyle. I think, in any case, a write-in ballot would serve the same purpose.

    60. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by FreakWent · · Score: 1

      You miss the main point with rigging elections, and so does the original asker.

      For details on how it's really done, read "The Armed Madhouse" by Greg Palast. It more about providing crappy or insufficient machines for non-republican precincts than about hacking the electronic booths. If you don't provide enough vote machines, then people get turned away without voting.

      If you don't provide working machines, the votes get damaged and miscounted. It's nota bout machines being sneaky and evil, it's about machines just being flaky and unreliable; mis-calibrated touch screens, power downs, reboots.

      In Australia we must vote, which makes it almost impossible to turn people away at the end of the day because the people all know they'll be fined! If you don't want to vote then when you get the fine you just claim to be a Jehovah's witness or whatever.

      We vote using paper and pencil writing numbers in boxes. It's really very easy. If you can draw a 1, you can make a legitimate vote. No machines needed. You can even use sans serif, they will acecpt a |.

      I don't know if the votes are counted by hand or machine, but we could certainly count by machine if we wanted, and still have all the paper votes for a hand recount.

      It's cheap. It's easy. It works in rural areas with no power. It's reliable, auditable and sensible.

      There's no legal compulsion in Australia to have any ID, so you can't ask for it for people to vote. They ask you for your name and address and they cross it off a list. It's your responsibility to enrol and get on that list when you turn 18 or move to a new area, or you can be fined for every election that you were off the books for. The list is public, but in text form. If you want to find someone's address then you need to travel to each district and search for them in the roll.

      AFAIK It's legal to enroll as "John Doe" with the correct address, as the use of false names/pseudonyms is only a crime when associated with other crimes, typically fraud. Taken together, these make the electoral roll a low threat for people's privacy.

      If you want to vote lots of times by driving to different booths then you can, at probably takes at least ten minutes per vote plus travel time. Fines will later be sent to anyone who's name is crossed off more than once, but they can dispute this and probably get away with it. If they find that lots of repeat votes happened then that gets understood as a margin of error, and if the result is so close that the margin is relevant then you could call a revote. There is no way to make more votes just appear, as has happened in some US elections.

      The hassle involved in voting 3 times makes it not worth the potential penalties if you do get caught somehow. The time and hassle involved in organising a handful of dodgy votes pays off better is spent on actual electioneering; that is, the ROI for successful overvoting is lower than the ROI on just lying to the people as usual.

      If you live somewhere a bit more dodgy where this might not be the case, then you use the purple ink on the finger trick, which works fine but isn't needed here because fraud is more readily apparent.

      The idea that a working voting system is somehow technically difficult for a nation capable of "winning" WW2, running nuclear power stations and running a high-tech space program is ludicrous. Any technical voting problems in the USA exist because the people responsible want them to. Democracy has many flaws, but voting is a solved problem.

    61. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by Robynthegeek · · Score: 1

      The only problem with our (San Mateo County's) voting machines are that they are absolutely impossible to use. Rather than an intuitive GUI and a touch screen they use a scroll wheel and a selection of buttons. I'm great with computers, but I always second guess my selections with those machines... I do like the paper trail, and the fact that you can view it behind the plastic, but the fact that the machine takes the paper (rather than having it in hand) does bother me a bit. Who knows what happens to the paper once it's sucked back into the black box? Part of a successful vote is inspiring trust in the populace, otherwise they will all simply stay home! Who wants to take time to cast a vote that might not count?

    62. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by jmichaelg · · Score: 1

      We had Sequoia touch screen equipment in Monterey County, California until we got a new registrar. The Sequoia had the paper roll but the former registrar stated that the electronic version was the authoritative source if there was a discrepancy. (!)

      He lost his job when he was caught embezzling money using a county-issued credit card.

      His replacement, perhaps desiring to avoid any association with her predecessor and to make the voting process more transparent, tossed the Sequoias in favor of simple paper ballots. It was a politically astute move - nobody trusted the Sequoias.

    63. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by iocat · · Score: 1
      I live in a very hardcore, poor, urban neighborhood in Oakland, CA, and there are never lines -- becuase NO ONE FUCKING VOTES.

      I'd cheer for a four hour line, but I suspect that if everyone who voted in my precinct lined up at once, it would take about 20 minutes. We used to use the Disenfranchizer2000 from Diebold, but now we used the awesome "draw a line between these two black dots on a piece of paper" which totally precludes ambiguity and is checked for errors when you put it in the machine. There is an electronic machine present, I assume for those with disabilities, but I've never seen it used.

      Of course, even if everyone voted it wouldn't matter, because most for most local positions the usual Machine scumbags run unopposed.

      --

      Dude, I think I can see my house from here.

    64. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by scotartt · · Score: 1

      Paper ballot systems are the only really secure voting system - provided various other provisos are met (e.g. voter registration and ballot box security). I don't understand the obsession for electronic voting at all.

      I participate regularly in elections involving both compulsory and optional preferential voting (aka "instant runoff voting") and we can count all the votes and distribute the preferences and produce the numbers for a voting booth inside a couple of hours. Including arguments about "is this a valid vote" (i.e. preferences legibly distributed according to the rules for that election). Party workers cannot touch the ballots. The overall results can be easily known an hour or two later and we're all at post-election events within 3 or 4 hours of the polls closing and the general shape of the results are known.

      So why you need to introduce hackable, unreliable, electronic machinery into this process is completely beyond me. In fact if they tried to introduce this into my elections I would vigourously oppose it at every turn.

      A comment below asks about the disabled. That's what a pre-poll postal ballot is for. That allows inclusion for people who can't make it to the voting booth on election day as well. And they are trivial to secure.

      --
      -A lovely little thinker, but a bugger when he's pissed-
    65. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by Bonobo_Unknown · · Score: 1

      or just not allow redos. get them to confirm three times their choice and if they can't get it right by then, too bad.

      --
      We don't believe in radical loony monotheistic religions from the middle east -- we're Christians.
    66. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by 5of0 · · Score: 1

      I'm tired of people being so skeptical of voting machines. At least where I live, King County, WA, we have a system similar to the GP. I have a detailed summary in an earlier comment, but as to address the cancelling:
      The voter checks their paper ballot. If it's correct, they hit "okay" and the machine sucks it up. If it's not, they ask for assistance, we come over and cancel the ballot. The printer prints an additional "cancel" code that also scrolls by the window, and then they re-do the vote from the top.

      The takeup wheel is rather noisy, so the voter would notice if the extra cancel code happened. Not only that, but the cancel code scrolls by the window. Once the vote is printed, there's no way to retract it or cancel it without printing an additional code. The only crack I can see is if the barcode says something different than the text - which could be fixed by making the text machine-readable (OCR-style), so the computer reads the same thing the human does. And even if the barcode is different, a manual manual recount (humans going through and counting the tape) would still show the discrepancy.

      The other problem with complaining about such things is that I don't see any more danger in the digital machines than in the good old paper ballots. They're not online, I don't believe they're ever connected to the internet, so it would require manual tampering. At that point, you could just as well switch out some paper ballots - who's to say the ballot I put in the machine is actually what's being counted? And so on. The machines we have today are working well - let them be.

      --
      You all have Oo.o and Firefox, so get World Wind.
    67. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by mOdQuArK! · · Score: 1

      It's not a bad thing to have a machine print out the ballot. You can get nice clean ballot, printed out in easily user & machine-readable letters, and with ONLY the choices that the user has made (no mixing them up with the other choices that had been on the voting selection lists). It's also easier to have specialized machines that can help the disabled to vote without help.

      Letting machines do the COUNTING is much more problematic.

    68. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by scotartt · · Score: 1

      Counting the ballots and the preference distribution is by hand. Having scrutineered booths for my party the last 5 or 6 federal elections and many state elections in two states I've some familiarity with it. There are also some details you've got slightly wrong.

      - just make a "1". well that doesn't work where preference distribution is compulsory (e.g. federal elections). in that situation you must number all the squares (bar one) starting at your first preference and decreasing order of preference. So a ballot with three candidates and just one marked "1" is an informal vote in that case. Only in some state elections, and council elections, is voting optional preferential (i.e. where you can "exhaust your preferences").

      - naturally the number of marked ballots is tallied with the number of marked voters, before the votes are even counted. after the votes are counted, the numbers are again tallied. in fact this often takes the longer than actually just counting the votes.

      - Registration. There are certainly flaws with electoral registration in Australia. Howard's mob made some last minute measures just before they were thrashed in the last election in this regard many of which served to disenfranchise sections of the electorate. Generally however these is little registration fraud.

      - If you vote multiple times, you will be caught, because the AEC checks for it (they can obviously tell if you've been marked on the roll in several different booths!). And they use a machine to check who has been marked off (have a gander at the way the worker marks the roll next time, it's made for machine reading).

      But then I'd say problems with the registration system are quite distinct from problems with the ballot.

      Speaking as a party member & voting scrutineer, we are not allowed to touch the ballot boxes or the ballots and can only watch the process occur. I find it totally ludicrous that in the USA party-political hacks are allowed to organise and run the vote! No wonder you get the "Florida situation". The USA needs to get the voting system out of the hands of the people who compete in the elections as its first priority.

      --
      -A lovely little thinker, but a bugger when he's pissed-
    69. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by Wildclaw · · Score: 1

      One thing that has always confused me is why you simply don't have harsh punishments for trying to pressure someone to vote a certain way.

      I understand that total secrecy can be a great tool in an oppressive country, but it is well known that such countries just manipulate the elections results directly.

      And the cost of total anonymity with no way of verifying that your vote actually got counted is actually pretty high in that it very much increases the chance of election fraud. Oh, and you need to be able to check that your vote didn't get counted if you didn't cast any also. Positive vote verifying isn't enough.

    70. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by McGiraf · · Score: 1

      mod can be assholes sometimes, how his this a troll?

    71. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by Symbiot · · Score: 1

      Well, the paper trail is only useful if it's actually examined which suggests that only the paper should be used to tally the votes. In reality you could drive down the chances of undetected fraud by randomly challenging a relatively small percentage of the electronic votes -- the same way that manufacturers will test a sampling of a batch for defects as a way of verifying the quality of the whole batch.

      Paper can be dangerous though. If you keep track of the order in which the voters arrive then you can correlate votes to people. When that happens vote tampering becomes a simple matter of extortion or bribery.

      Don't even get me started on vote-by-mail...

    72. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by Eskarel · · Score: 1
      The US could always stop being idiotic and make election day a federal public holiday, or make it illegal to fire someone for missing work on an election day(the way it's already illegal to fire someone for getting called up into the reserves.

      They could also fund elections properly at the state or federal level so that everyone got a vote.

      This isn't a problem with e-voting(most voting uses machines of some sort anyway, and there have been long lines in poorer urban areas for longer than there's been e-voting) it has to do with a US system which doesn't really want certain types of people to vote in the first place, e-voting or otherwise, and which is in general poorly funded and regulated.

      For that matter election fraud didn't just appear with e-voting, it's something that happens. Mind you it's only really effective in elections where the results are pretty close. The 2000 election may have involved voter fraud, it certainly involved the tragedy of the electoral college, but it mostly involved the fact that Al Gore, despite all his new environmental passion and personality, was a terrible candidate. Yet another of the long line of left wing candidates who believe that folks like Bill Clinton got elected because they were centrist and had no real policy as opposed to the fact that they were folks like Bill Clinton.

    73. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by Excelcia · · Score: 1

      Ease and accuracy of counting is one reason to e-vote. In Canada in the last election, we had a system more akin to an electronic counter. We voted on paper ballots with a black marker and the ballot was then fed into a scanner that empties into a lockbox if the scanner reads properly. In case of any recount, it is done by hand with the real paper ballot that people actually wrote on. A certain random selection of voting stations are chosen for manual counts anyway to ensure it matches what the electronic counts are.

      Unless you want to add environmental concerns to the equation, I can't think of a better system. Fast, efficient, and verifiable.

    74. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by BeaverCleaver · · Score: 1

      I like my backwards _country_ for this reason. All the votes nationwide are on paper. Disabled voters can cast a postal vote. And voting is compulsory, so even if we can't get the best candidate _in_ we can usually keep the worst candidate _out_. And while compulsory, it is still a secret ballot. You can cast a blank piece of paper if you are that upset by the system.

      (of course the system isn't perfect, which is why it took so very many, many years to get rid of our previous Prime Minister.)

    75. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by TrinSF · · Score: 1

      "Who knows what happens to the paper?" you ask. But have you ever asked your elections officials? I can tell you that that box is individually tracked every step of the way, as is the vote in it. If you wanted to, you could be walked through that process, you can observe that in action.

      In all honesty, whenever someone questions the process, I have one simple answer: Become involved in the process. I'm not worried about my vote counting, because I am now intimately familar with the very elaborate set of checks and balances and accounting and auditing in place to secure every single ballot in our system. I didn't know or understand any of that until I got involved with the process. Now that I work as an election inspector, every time I work I understand more of the process. Even if you don't become a pollworker, you're entitled to observe the process. NOTHING about what we do or how we do it is secret. You can watch us set up in the morning, you can watch us tally the votes. You can follow your precinct staff to the drop off point, and you can follow the ballots and voting materials back to the central location at Tower Road. You can watch the tallying taking place.

      I agree with you that part of my job is to inspire trust in the populace. I do that by taking seriously every question asked of me about the voting process, and doing my best to provide information to the voters. When a voter like you expresses concern, I understand completely and do my best to explain what we're doing in a transparent way.

      By the way, I agree that machines are more difficult to use than touch screens, but as I've explained elsewhere, the primary reason we have them is to enfranchise disabled voters. Touch screens would disenfranchise some of the same voters that were not able to exercise their voting rights under previous systems -- that is, you'd still have to be able to see and have a particular level of manual dexerity to cast a ballot. Over time, they become easier to use, at least.

    76. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by jknyght9 · · Score: 1

      While paper-trails are great for auditing purposes, they like media can be destroyed in the machine or in transit to central counting location. I am a firm believer of layered security and auditing procedures; however, don't put your full trust in them.

    77. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by TrinSF · · Score: 1

      Legally a voter is allowed two spoiled ballots, and on the third try, that's the final ballot they get. This is true also for electronic voting -- they get three tries and that's it. :-)

    78. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by TrinSF · · Score: 1

      The latter is correct. When this sort of thing happens, we take the physical voter code slip, cancel the booth, and note on the slip the reason why the machine was cancelled. We then have to log exactly the time, circumstances, and everyone involved. At the end of the day, I have to have on file that slip of paper with the access code and the log for every incident like this that happened. The fact that this happens is also reflected in the vote totals printed out for the end of the night. Every step of the way, we document anything unusual that happens.

      Because of this, anyone looking at the totals would immediately be able to tell that there was a problem, and my voter trail could then be subject to further scrutiny. That paper trail ballot that was spoiled will be on my secure roll for the evening, but there will also be information on that roll that vote for access code X was spoiled, and is not counted.

      I'd love to see you all come and watch in person! Really, it's a lot of very complex stuff to keep track of, and the amount of auditing and accountablility in connection with the paper trail is pretty interesting.

    79. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by TrinSF · · Score: 1

      To be clear, by "everyone involved", I mean that we have to note every pollworker who was involved. We do not EVER note the voter or the voter's name or other identifying information. This is true for any irregularities. If I help someone vote, I have to document that I helped at X time at X booth.

    80. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by TrinSF · · Score: 1

      Our county doesn't use touch screens. And in fact, each precinct has one voting unit equipped with earphones and screen-reading, as well as other accessibility add-ons.

    81. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by TrinSF · · Score: 1

      Taking away pencil and paper? Goodness, no! Every voter in my state has the right to a paper ballot. All my voters have to do is ask, and some of them do. Out of 200 voters, I typically get 3-4 who prefer a paper ballot. Some other precincts have higher numbers.

      There may be states or locations where paper balloting is being taken away from voters, but I don't serve as a poll worker in one of those places.

    82. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by Duhavid · · Score: 1

      If you have a disability that would make marking a piece of paper with a marker correctly an impossibility, how will electronic voting make it possible for you to vote unassisted?

      --
      emt 377 emt 4
    83. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by TrinSF · · Score: 1

      Sure, two examples, voters I have had:

      1. A blind voter. Previously, this voter had to have another person read the ballot to them, either at home as an absentee ballot, or at the polling place, either a helper or a pollworker. Then the blind voter would tell that person how they wished to vote, and the helper would mark the ballot that way. In this instance, the blind person has no way to verify the helper is marking the ballot as instructed. Whether it's a pollworker, a health care aide, or a family member, there is no guarantee of that. Not only that, but the blind voter has to *tell* another person their voting choices.

      Under the new system we have, the blind voter can still do that if they prefer -- and some do. But the blind voter also has the option of coming to the polling place, sitting down at an electronic booth, having the ballot read aloud by the computer, having their choices verified and read by the computer, and having their paper ballot read outloud to them. The blind voter can do this without another person's assistance. Now, you can argue that the voter still cannot be sure that the ballot being read to them is the correct ballot, but in order to do that, we'd have to know in advance that a blind person was going to vote, etc.

      2. A voter in a wheelchair, with extreme mobility issues, who has never been able to physically mark a ballot before, because their hands are non-functional. In the past, even if that voter could see and read the ballot, that voter still had to have someone mark the ballot, either at home, or in the polling place.

      Under the new system, that voter was able to come in, and for the first time in her life, be alone in a polling booth, read the ballot, and choose ballot options using a sip-and-puff interface. That voter was able to review the paper trail, verify it, and approve it and the final vote using the sip-and-puff. No one had to assist the voter, any more than we assist any other voter. That voter was maybe 35 or 40 years old, and it was the first time in her life she was able enter a polling booth and vote alone.

      In both these cases, the voters can still choose to do things they way they did them in the past -- they can vote absentee with help, or come in and be assisted by a helper or a pollworker. They can still vote a paper ballot if they want, with assistance, at home or at a polling place. But now, they have something they didn't have before -- they have the ability to fully exercise the voting rights that were previously available in theory only.

    84. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by TrinSF · · Score: 1

      Sip-and-puff, or giant button. We have a voting entry option which is basically a giant pressure sensitive button, which can be placed under or near a body part that can be moved. It means even if you can't hold a pen, if you can press down with your fist or foot, you can vote. If you can't do either of those, you probably already are using a sip-and-puff for other things -- we just attach our equipment to yours.

    85. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by mdmkolbe · · Score: 1

      Thank you for taking the time to explain that. That allays most of my concerns since that procedure prevents both machine-cancels-ballot-after-voter-walks-away and machine-prints-extra-ballots attacks. It also puts in perspective the gravity of those cases where the tallies haven't added up.

      Someone (*wink wink*) should put up a web page explaining what e-voting systems actually work correctly and what the proper procedures entail along with the reasons behind them (e.g. the system you describe is secure *only* if proper procedure is used). It would be useful for educating the public about good vs bad implementations of e-voting. Until today I'd only heard about the bad implementations of e-voting thought I believed good implementations were possible.

    86. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by Idiomatick · · Score: 1

      really the vote should be canceled i dont want someone that undecided voting at all.

    87. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by TrinSF · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Let me be clear. I am not a "pro-electronic voting moron". I'm pro-voter. I'm pro-voting rights. I'm for whatever it takes to have as many people as possible be able to fully and freely exercise their voting rights. In my county, right now, I feel confident that the head of my elections process is someone who supports those goals. I put my energy into making every voter feel empowered and making every vote count. Right now, that means helping voters understand how the electronic system we have works for them, and cheerfully giving voters paper ballots if that's what they want to be comfortable voting.

      At no point in this thread have I ever said, "This is what people should do" or "This is why electronic voting is good". My opinions about electronic voting are irrelevant, actually. I ask my pollworkers to leave their opinions at the door. My job -- one I take very seriously -- is to ensure that the ballots and equipment I am responsible for are secure from the moment I sign for them until the moment I sign them into someone else's care, and to make sure every voter who shows up at my precinct gets to vote. I do whatever it takes for that to happen, because that's the bottom line. If my devotion to voting rights makes me a moron, I guess I'll accept the label.

    88. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by Duhavid · · Score: 1

      OK. But wont a person in such a situation have a hard time seeing the options? Not eyesight, but I cant help but imagine a person who needs one of those options but being in a wheelchair. Are the voting machines low enough or adjustable?

      --
      emt 377 emt 4
    89. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by TrinSF · · Score: 1

      To be more clear, while the law says you can have that, and you're entitled to it, the point of the recent changes is that "separate but equal" isn't. Voters are entitled to be able to vote without assistance, if they want to. To tell a class a voters that they only way they're going to get to vote is with assistance, that's the problem. The ADA says reasonable accommodations, which is what these things are supposed to address. Yes, there will always be voters who cannot be accommodated by anything other than assisted voting, but there are many many more who could be able to fully exercise their rights, if reasonable changes were made.

      Ramps and curb cuts don't make every building accessible to every disabled person. But they do make places accessible to many more people than not having ramps or curb cuts at all. This argument for "people have always made due before" could just as easily be used to say, "Hey, for generations, people stayed home if they couldn't get into buildings. Why do we have to make them accessible now? It's always worked before."

    90. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by TrinSF · · Score: 1

      www.shapethefuture.org . There's even a blog! I'm in some of the pictures!

    91. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by Nemo's+Night+Sky · · Score: 1

      I haven't heard about San Mateo in a long time. Fancy fancy cali.

    92. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by TrinSF · · Score: 1

      It doesn't have to be undecided. When we had paper ballots that used magnetic ink pens, if people made a stray mark on the ballot, it spoiled the ballot and the ballot reader wouldn't be able to process it. This would happen a lot with mothers trying to vote and hold children at the same time. Sometimes it would just be a clumsy moment -- you drop the pen on the ballot while getting ready to vote and you could spoil the ballot.

    93. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by Idiomatick · · Score: 1

      making a mistake then accidentally hitting accept 3 times in a row is worse than indecision. Are there rules about voting while high?

    94. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by TrinSF · · Score: 1

      "Are there rules about voting when high?"

      Yes! *laugh* A voter can be challenged for being incapacitated due to alcohol or drugs. I grew up in places where it was illegal to sell liquor on election days, because of that concern.

    95. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One little problem that happened to me in Ohio -

      The paper vote system did not print when I voted. Stayed totally blank (maybe out of ink). I complained, called attention to it, and the vote taker said "oh you just need to confirm" and hit the "accept vote" button.

      I went back later when their tech support guy was there, and he argued with me about how 'we never let people have a receipt of their vote'.

      They were totally unable to understand the point of the paper trail... so I can affirm for certain that that precinct had a defective paper trail.

      You have to have the paper be the vote, and carry it to the box, in order to make sure all the paper votes are printed in the first place. All too easy to 'fail' a printer and 'lose' votes in a given direction. Also trivial to imagine that the printer would conveniently fail when a certain vote is cast, or fail 20% of the time when those votes are cast.

    96. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by Chandon+Seldon · · Score: 1

      Simple heuristic: If it produces a ballot that goes in a ballot box, it's good. Otherwise, it's trash.

      This isn't the whole story, but it's a good enough approximation that your case isn't the exception.

      --
      -- The act of censorship is always worse than whatever is being censored. Always.
    97. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by feed_me_cereal · · Score: 1

      why not give each voter a ticket with some unique number on it when they leave. Only the voter knows his/her particular number, and they can then check a public website afterword which has all of the unique numbers next to the voting record for each voter. Anonymous, private, voter-verifiable. The only thing this doesn't protect against is ballot stuffing.

      I dunno.. what do you guys think? Sound reasonable?

      --
      "Question with boldness even the existence of a god." - Thomas Jefferson
    98. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      without a paper trail, how can you spot E-Vote integrity?

      I think there is a solution at www.axsionics.ch, but as it's extra electronics it may prove too costly in a national volume. No paper, but absolutely tied to a user..

    99. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by Legume · · Score: 1

      Go with compulsory voting. Compulsory voting has nothing to do with forcing people to make a decision even if they have no interest in doing so - there should be nothing to prevent such people from casting an informal/spoilt vote. The real effect is to ensure that there are sufficient resources available, and a universal understanding that everyone will have to take the time out of their day, so that every eligible voter is given the opportunity to vote. What they do with that opportunity is up to them.

      The upshot of compulsory voting may well be that the election needs to take place on a weekend or a holiday, but unlike just making the day a holiday it also forces the organisers to provide sufficient resources so that people aren't prevented from voting simply by the lack of available polling-places.

    100. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by Gandalf_the_Beardy · · Score: 1

      In the UK as you may be aware the entire voting system is paper based. Takes us about 2 hours to count the votes from the stations typically and the system relies on old fashioned wax seals, ripoff plastic tape seals and supervision of the ballet boxes all the way by accredited observers from the council and all parties. Voter based tampering is almost impossible without detection, false voters and electoral roll stuffing is where is occurs. To address the issue of enfranchising voters that ar disabled, I'd love to see a system where someone needing sip and puff, large buttons etc can have their vote paper issued, carried by the staff and have it loaded into the machine, and then they can have it printed and dispensed into a ballot box. Saves all the hassle surely. As for lines they are more or less none existant. We processes typically a voter through in 15 seconds (4 staff running each point, 4 voting booths, pencil powered) and lines are IME never seen of more than 5 minutes, even in the buisiest points. The fact that all dwellings must be within something like 2 miles of a station probably helps though.

    101. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by Winders · · Score: 1
      Having been a presiding officer at a polling station for a borough council election here in England, the solution for blind voters is simple. A plastic overlay with all the details written in Braille is put over the ballot paper so that the voter knows where to mark it accordingly.



      Simple and effective.

    102. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by icebrain · · Score: 1

      Unless it's possible to physically touch the paper record (maybe it scrolls by a little window)? Then you could mark it out with a sharpie or something.

      --
      The meek may inherit the earth, but the strong shall take the stars.
    103. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I thought that voting machines were purchased with state funds? What do you mean a poor area can't afford enough of them?

    104. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not only a paper trail, but the generated paper needs to be VERIFIED by each voter for accuracy.

      That means all the neat algorithms that print a unique number for the transaction and another unique number that describes all the votes won't cut it. If the voter can't easily see who/what they voted for and recognize a mistake, forget it.

      Don't get me wrong, the 2 numbers transaction:voting style are needed to validate the paper and machine counts match.

    105. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by tist · · Score: 1

      Um, The point of the previous posts...
      begin sarcasm
      "Of course what is printed on the paper identically matches what was recorded electronically by the machine."
      end sarcasm
      By definition, the electronic voting system abstracts the voter from the vote. The evidence of potential fraud exists already - it's an electronic voting system.

    106. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by conureman · · Score: 1

      In The People's Republic of California, we don't allow alcohol to be sold or given away in the polling place or in a place connected by a door or window to the polling place. I couldn't find the law regarding drinking while voting. (I am an Election Inspector who had a lot of time on my hands last Tuesday.)

      --
      The cost of that cleanup, of course, will be borne by taxpayers, not industry.
    107. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by mpe · · Score: 1

      Sucks for anyone who has a disability, though. They don't get to exercise their legal voting rights, because your system does not allow them anonymous, private voting.

      You'd need a highly complex machine to even begin to address the many possible disabilities people could have. Especially of it happens that making something easy for one specific disability is mutually incompatable with another disability/able bodied person.
      A simpler option would be to allow the disabled person to appoint a proxy.

    108. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by mpe · · Score: 1

      But the law doesn't say you're entitled to be assisted by someone sworn to secrecy. I mean, do you want to have to tell me what you want to vote, and then have me mark that down for you? What if I'm your neighbor? What if I'm your mother?

      Then maybe you should choose someone else to assist you...
      Of course if you are enough of a fool that you will always vote the way someone else tells you then maybe you shouldn't be voting in the first place.

    109. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by PPCAvenger · · Score: 1

      Lot of poor people have jobs that are real understanding of a 4-hour "vote break". Which is exactly why the day of the vote should be a national holiday. It's once every four years (presidential anyway) so it's not going to have a massive effect on the economy and it would eliminate one more form of disenfranchisement.
    110. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by firstake · · Score: 1

      When I am assisting voters, I make sure to highlight that the paper vote that displays is the "paper trail" they have heard about, and that to ensure their vote's integrity, they should be careful to seriously check the vote and verify it matches http://www.wijvertrouwenstemcomputersniet.nl/English

    111. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by Red+Alastor · · Score: 1

      Better question: Does your system save time or money? No? Why don't you just use paper ballots.

      --
      Slashdot anagrams to "Sad Sloth"
    112. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by TrinSF · · Score: 1

      Wow, your comment makes no sense. We're talking about disabled voters voting with assistance -- not being told how to vote, but having to have someone else mark their ballot for them, because they're unable to see or otherwise mark the ballot themselves.

    113. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by TrinSF · · Score: 1

      So, amusingly enough, when we had paper balloting in this county, the voter did what you're suggesting -- used a magnetic pen and marked a paper ballot -- and then fed the completed ballot into a scanner that counted it and tabulated the vote in a secure memory pack. At the end of the night, the memory pack got counted, and the paper ballots were just ... a paper trail.

      For this reason, in our county, I'm always privately a little amused when voters talk about how they want to "go back" to paper ballots. We had an electronic system before; it's just that we used to generate the electronic total from the paper. We will provide a paper ballot now to anyone who asks, but that ballot isn't computer read at the polling place.

    114. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by TrinSF · · Score: 1

      We don't have lines, either. Our precincts are not more than 1000 registered voters. Of those, maybe 300 are inactive (have not voted in 10 more elections, I think), another 350 or so are registered to vote permanent absentee voter, and of the rest, no more than 50 percent or so actually vote. So of 1000 voters, I between 25 and 250 actually voting. Our particular polling place is broken up into 4 precincts, so those numbers are repeated in their areas of the room.

      On incredibly busy elections, during brief periods, I can have a 3-4 person back up, creating wait times of 2-3 minutes. That's it. Limiting the total number of voters on a single precinct roster helps with that. The other thing is that because poll workers come from the community, I frequently work at precincts where the poll workers between them know 60-75 percent of the active voters on the roster, by name. It's actually hard to pretend to be so-and-so when the poll worker knew so-and-so for 20 years before he died. :-)

    115. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by DarthJohn · · Score: 1

      sip-and-puff

      Oh, the 'air pressure in a straw' input device.

    116. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by beamin · · Score: 1

      Are there rules about voting while high? Obviously not, since we've had two terms of Dubya.
    117. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by Sylver+Dragon · · Score: 1

      I agree that is a problem. Right now the best solution seems to be have representatives from several dissimilarly interested parties involved directly in the counting. Ideally with enough difference of opinion that any one would out the others. The problem, of course, would be if all of the people involved in the counting were in collusion.

      As for ending anonymous voting, the threat of coercion is just too great. We might as well have armed thugs voting for us. At the very least, with the fraud route it requires either a high level of sophistication or coordination. Just to get around the paper trail idea, it requires buying off everyone involved in the counting. One leak and the jig is up. With coercion, the effort can be so distributed that it becomes a nightmare to track down.

      --
      Necessity is the mother of invention.
      Laziness is the father.
    118. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      My job -- one I take very seriously -- is to ensure that the ballots and equipment I am responsible for are secure from the moment I sign for them until the moment I sign them into someone else's care, and to make sure every voter who shows up at my precinct gets to vote.

      If you take responsibility for an electronic voting machine, you're either ignorant or irresponsible. There's absolutely no way that you can know that the computer will record votes correctly.

      I give poll workers the benefit of the doubt and assume that they are all simply ignorant and believe what they have been told about those machines and how computers work, but your holier-than-thou talk isn't impressing anyone who actually knows how computers work and who actually understand the inherent impossibility of 'certifying' that a computer does anything at all.

      I know poll workers think they're outside all this, but you're not. You can certify that you saw people take a ballot, fill it out, drop it in a box, then you saw the box sealed up and sent. You cannot certify that you saw someone fill out a electronic ballot and it got recorded. You need to take a long look at the process and yourself and decide if you can actually sign, under penalty of perjury, that nothing has been tampered with, when you actually have no idea if it's happened.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    119. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      Yes, and a reasonable accommodation is an audio voting system. I have no problems with those. Although I do suspect that a better accommodation might be a braille ballot, but whatever. (I'm not sure how blind people fill out forms, but I know that problem's already been solved.)

      Sadly, instead of just adding one of those, which could be done fairly simply, the fact that one is needed has resulted in a push to replacing all voting with electronic machines.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    120. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      You probably live in a state with a state government that isn't trying to disenfranchise minority voters, then.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    121. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by TrinSF · · Score: 1

      No, at no point in the recent past has balloting in my area ever been as you describe -- there has never been a point where my job was to certify that voters "take a ballot, fill it out, drop it in a box, then [...] the box sealed up and sent." And to be clear, I'm quite knowledgable about the computer processes involved, even though I haven't discussed them here.

      If you think I'm ignorant, that's fine. I know exactly what I have to certify, and I do exactly that. If you haven't been through the process with me, you're just pretending you know what I deal with. Can I control what happens to voting equipment when it's not in my care? No. But if I choose to, I could follow that equipment through the process.

      It is not my job to ensure that there is no tampering of computer records. I can't assure that, and I'd be ridiculous to say I could -- which is why at no point in this discussion have I ever said that. I've explained how the processes I handle directly work. I've explained the reasoning behind some equipment choices. I've explained some of the historical reasons for some legal issues about voting. I'm glad to explain those processes to anyone who asks. But you know what? But it is not my job as a pollworker to guarantee to anyone anywhere, including you, that election tampering is impossible in any way in California. I know *exactly* what my duties are. I also know that this is the way I can help. Instead of sitting at home, complaining that voting is fraudulent, I can put my ass in a seat at a polling place and say, "Here, in this place, so much as I can do so, I can work to have every voter I interact with vote." I'm not an advocate for electronic voting. I'm a pollworker. I wish more posters to this thread were pollworkers, too.

    122. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by TrinSF · · Score: 1

      No, my county has had electronically tallied voting for years, using the Sequoia Optech (Eagle) system. They didn't replace hand-counted paper ballots for ADA rasons. They replaced one electronic tallying system with another. And again, paper ballots are the law here. You come into my precinct to vote and don't want anything to do with a machine, that's absolutely fine -- I will cheerfully give you a paper ballot and a pen, which you can mark to your heart's content, and put into a sealed plastic ballot box, to be counted separately at the end of the evening. You couldn't do that when we had the Eagles!

    123. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by Eskarel · · Score: 1

      There shouldn't be a lack of resources regardless of whether it's compulsory or not. The issue wasn't so much a response to resources, as it was saying that if folks could vote at any time more people could get to vote and the load would be spread better.

    124. Re:Do you have a paper trail? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why are your elections officials so much slower than those in other countries?

      In Canada, the longest wait I've ever faced at the voting booth is well under 5 minutes. I've waited longer at Tim Hortons (tm).

      Canada offers no e-Voting anything. It's all pen and paper. And before someone suggests that the zillions of choices you supposedly have on your votes slows things down, we have that sort of thing too, for our municipal elections. To speed things up, you fill in a scantron for those. Your results are read into a computer, and the card is stored for verification. These are for answering the less-important things, like who will be public school chairman, etc. The sorts of things that people have little to gain by gaming.

      For the rest, yes, it's check the box with paper and felt-tip black marker.

      Why is it again that the US has to learn from the rest of the world about how to do things?

  3. That's the hard part by CastrTroy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    That's the hard part about e-voting. It's hard to tell when something fraudulent is happening. With pen and paper, human counted voting, it's easy to watch to ballot box to ensure it's empty when you start, that no extra votes are deposited, and that all votes are counted properly. With computers, it's hard for people to actually watch and see what's going on. You could probably swap out the entire insides of a voting machine, make it work completely differently, yet look exactly the same, without anybody noticing.

    --

    Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    1. Re:That's the hard part by hoppo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Actually, that's not true. It would have been pathetically easy to deposit extra votes in the ballot box without anyone noticing.

      It is fallacious to think we can have a foolproof voting system. And those who complain the loudest will never be satisfied. Use paper voting, and there is outcry of fraud, ballot box stuffing, etc. Move to computer voting, and there is still outcry of fraud, ballot box stuffing, etc. If a paper trail is added, suddenly they're tracking who votes for whom. There's no winning. In fact, it doesn't even get any better -- make a Venn diagram of the complainants in each of those three scenarios, and I guarantee you it pretty much looks like one thick circle.

      We just have to trust that most poll workers are civically responsible, and are doing their best to mitigate fraud. Anyone who doesn't think that is the case in his precinct is more than welcome to step away from his busy day of posting on Slashdot and volunteer to work the polls. That's a little more work than writing snarky message board comments, however.

    2. Re:That's the hard part by TheDarkener · · Score: 1

      Here's my (serious) question: What's worse?

      a) Having a paper trail and therefore eliminating the anonymity of voting

      -or-

      b) Having no idea whether your vote actually counted

      ?

      --
      It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
    3. Re:That's the hard part by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, to answer the original question:
      Keep your eyes open for people with all the insides of a voting machine stuffed down their pants.

    4. Re:That's the hard part by dascritch · · Score: 3, Informative

      Here in France, the ballot box is transparent (plexiglas) and most of the time, vote are put in a envelope.

      But it is also true that we are planning elections so that never more than two simultaneous consultations are done the same day (and never during Presidential Indecisions days).

      I was assesseur (co-judge) in numerous elections, and we rarely have to count more than one hour for 2000 exprimed votes. I think symbolic transparency of the ballot box help to have more than 50% of participation for major elections (less are European votes, with 40%)

      --
      (Sorry my bad French) Je fais parler les Guignols de l'Info. Le pied, quoi.
    5. Re:That's the hard part by FredFredrickson · · Score: 1, Informative

      You can have a paper trail without losing anonymity

      --
      Belief? Hope? Preference?The Existential Vortex
    6. Re:That's the hard part by maxume · · Score: 1

      How does a paper trail impact anonymity? Just have the machine spit out a piece of paper (call it a 'ballot'), have the voter inspect the paper to ensure that it matches their intent, and then have them place it in a box with the rest of the ballots. With a little attention to that last step, there aren't any anonymity problems (save that it is still possible to see how a precinct voted in aggregate).

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    7. Re:That's the hard part by steelfood · · Score: 1

      If we can put so much money into preventing paper currency counterfeiting, we can utilize the same technology for ballot stuffing.

      All the machine has to do is print out a paper ballot for the voter to cast into a box, after the voter has voted electronically. It doesn't matter if the printing in and of itself has anti-counterfeiting measures (though it should be trivial to do the yellow dots thing for those machines), as long as the paper printed upon does. The electronic tally and the paper box tally should match. If they don't, then it's obvious one of the two has been tampered with, and it's a lot easier to trace which machine recorded the bogus vote from there.

      --
      "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
    8. Re:That's the hard part by doconnor · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I've been an scrutineer in several Canadian elections where we use paper ballots with no computers.

      Dropping extra votes in the box could be done in a Canadian election, but it would be detected at the end of the day when the number of votes are compared to the number of voters and the number of ballots handed out. If there was a problem on a wide scale, it would be known, and presumably the election rerun.

      Many of the procedures in a Canadian election are about detecting fraud which is somewhat easier and less disruptive then preventing fraud.

    9. Re:That's the hard part by TheDarkener · · Score: 1

      So....doesn't that eliminate the whole point of having electronic voting machines in the first place?

      --
      It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
    10. Re:That's the hard part by maxume · · Score: 1

      The machine can still keep track of the votes, and output 'fast' totals. Also, there might be accessibility benefits to electronic voting.

      My district uses scantron, which I am perfectly happy with, I hope they don't waste money changing it.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    11. Re:That's the hard part by qbzzt · · Score: 1

      Just remember to wear your gloves to voting booth. Otherwise you leave fingerprints all over your ballot.

      Seriously, voting shouldn't just be secure. It should be verifiably secure by a non technical person. Paper ballots, possibly computer generated, are the best way to do that.

      --
      -- Support a free market in the field of government
    12. Re:That's the hard part by magisterx · · Score: 1

      You have a point that someone will always complain and also that there needs to be a level of trust involved, but there are certainly steps that be taken to minimize it. Having a double check will certainly not make the system unhackable, but it can make it harder.

    13. Re:That's the hard part by gobbo · · Score: 1

      Dropping extra votes in the box could be done in a Canadian election, but it would be detected at the end of the day when the number of votes are compared to the number of voters and the number of ballots handed out. If there was a problem on a wide scale, it would be known, and presumably the election rerun. I've scrutineered in Canadian elections too. In the voting stations I've seen stuffing boxes would be extremely difficult, requiring the skills of an illusionist. People from different parties are present and vigilant, the procedures are sensible.

      There's something very satisfying about counting paper ballots and watching it done. It's simple, clean, and easy to get right, and you can keep going right through a power outage. The whole e-voting thing is mystifying... why would citizens give up such basic checks and balances?
    14. Re:That's the hard part by mdmkolbe · · Score: 1

      The goal of a voting system shouldn't be to eliminate the possibility of fraud since as you say that is impossible. Rather a good voting system should make it so that undetected fraud would require collusion among members of opposing parties. (My understanding is that parties usually send at least one representative to each precinct.)

    15. Re:That's the hard part by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      Actually, that's not true. It would have been pathetically easy to deposit extra votes in the ballot box without anyone noticing.

      Um, no. First you have to steal the ballots, which are sitting in full view of everyone. (No, you can't bring your own, because they do actually count the remaining ballots at the end.) Then you have mark them, which is easy, and then you have to put them in the ballot box, which would be difficult by yourself but not that hard without outside help. (Handing a dozen to different voters.)

      But the real problem, of course, is that you have to mark off enough extra voters to get the tallies to match, and, as you don't want to risk doing that and then having the voter show up, you have to do it after the voting is over...but, of course, no one should be messing with that after the election is over.

      And, to make it worse, there are often two official tallies being kept...there's someone writing down the names of people, and there's someone also marking them off a list or moving a card from one box to another. This is in addition to any unofficial tallies that observers are taking.

      'Ballot box stuffing' hasn't happened in quite some time. Even the Chicago party machine that managed to rig elections for so long didn't manage it. (Instead, they put fake names on the voter rolls and had them loop through and vote repeatedly.)

      We just have to trust that most poll workers are civically responsible, and are doing their best to mitigate fraud. Anyone who doesn't think that is the case in his precinct is more than welcome to step away from his busy day of posting on Slashdot and volunteer to work the polls. That's a little more work than writing snarky message board comments, however.

      The problem is that electronic voting takes control completely away from the poll workers. They can't see inside the machines and they can't verify anything.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    16. Re:That's the hard part by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Preventing ballot stuffing is trivially easy.

      1. 2500 registered voters turned up at this voting booth and voted.

      2. NEVER transport the ballot box anywhere. Count the votes where they are cast.

      3. There are 2500 ballots in the ballot box. If you have some other number, something is wrong. Have the police (FBI/Gendarmes/whatever) seize all the ballot boxes, voter registration rolls and all other paraphernalia and commence criminal investigation.

    17. Re:That's the hard part by codegen · · Score: 1

      Canadian Ballots also have a serial Number. The ballot is torn along a perforated line from a pad that has the serial number on the part of ballot that remains on the pad. The serial number is not recorded against the voters name, but the serial numbers in the ballot box can be compared to the serial numbers that remain with the elected officials.

      --
      Atlas stands on the earth and carries the celestial sphere on his shoulders.
  4. I thought this was the problem with e-voting by johnny+cashed · · Score: 1

    Is that tampering is difficult or impossible on a black box electronic voting machine. Does it spit out a paper trail?

    1. Re:I thought this was the problem with e-voting by johnny+cashed · · Score: 1

      whoops, I meant difficult or impossible to spot tampering. Not that tampering is difficult or impossible with an electronic voting machine.

    2. Re:I thought this was the problem with e-voting by CastrTroy · · Score: 1

      But what good is a paper trail if you can't get a recount? It's very hard to get an actual recount. And even if you do, they don't recount everything. They recount a certain percentage, and then if there's a problem found with that "randomly selected" sample, you get to recount the whole batch. And what happens if the recount finds a discrepency. They correct it. But what about all the other voting districts. They haven't done a revote yet. So if there was something really wrong with the way the machines counted, the vote count would still be quite off.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    3. Re:I thought this was the problem with e-voting by johnny+cashed · · Score: 1

      I'm trying to understand what is so good about an electronic voting machine? Here in my state, we do use an "electronic" voting machine of sorts. It is an optical scan machine. The voter marks a paper ballot with supplied pen, and then the ballot is inserted into the machine for counting. One could verify the count by hand counting the original paper ballots. If the machine is purely electronic with no physical ballot, tampering could occur without detection.

    4. Re:I thought this was the problem with e-voting by Shagg · · Score: 1

      I'm trying to understand what is so good about an electronic voting machine? ...
      If the machine is purely electronic with no physical ballot, tampering could occur without detection.

      I think you've answered your own question. That's a definite plus to the people who are forcing these things on us.

      --
      Unix is user friendly, it's just selective about who its friends are.
    5. Re:I thought this was the problem with e-voting by CastrTroy · · Score: 1

      Again, if the counting machine is rigged, it's really hard to get a recount. It's just better to count by hand in the first place. If you think it's at all necessary to have a paper trail to do recount, because you don't trust the machine, then you might as well not use the machine in the first place.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    6. Re:I thought this was the problem with e-voting by johnny+cashed · · Score: 1

      I agree, but it seems that the machines are used to speed up a tedious (and boring) process. Granted, speed isn't all that important, but you don't want ballot counting to last too long, because the greater the time lag, the greater the possibility of someone tampering with ballots.

      It would seem to me that the solution would be manifold. Human legible ballots which are marked. They get scanned by machine and secured (in a ballot box if you will). Machines are chosen at random, and ballots hand counted to verify the result. Exit polls are also taken as another check on accuracy. Common sense provisions are enacted to help prevent ordinary (read, traditional) voter fraud, like enacting methods to prevent dead people from voting. Even then, you cannot prevent voter fraud, only reduce it, and then hopefully reduce it to the point that it would be a statistically irrelevant.

      I'm all for old fashioned hand counting of ballots, but is it feasible to count all ballots by hand? Will there be secure methods to ensure that the hand counting isn't tampered with? Just because I can't trust a machine, doesn't mean that I can trust humans in the process. A machine, properly made and audited, Should be unbiased and can do simple things like count votes. There should always be redundant mechanisms to verify the votes. I have problems with any system that uses a method to record votes that requires a machine to read the record.

  5. How To Spot E-Vote Tampering? by yo303 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If the machine says Diebold on it, there's a good chance it has been tampered with.

    1. Re:How To Spot E-Vote Tampering? by Dracos · · Score: 4, Informative

      Remember: Diebold changed their name to Premier Election Systems last year.

    2. Re:How To Spot E-Vote Tampering? by shemnon · · Score: 3, Funny

      See... they've been tampering with it!

      --
      --Shemnon
    3. Re:How To Spot E-Vote Tampering? by hostyle · · Score: 1

      So the voting machines are a bit like pes dispensers ?

      --
      Caesar si viveret, ad remum dareris.
    4. Re:How To Spot E-Vote Tampering? by Benwick · · Score: 1

      Or if someone tries to vote for Barack Obama and the vote comes up as "George Bush". ...It was true in 2000 and 2004 too!

    5. Re:How To Spot E-Vote Tampering? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Diebold perfected their machines before the 2006 congressional elections, when Democrats took control of congress.
      There wasn't a single complaint of system irregularities in the mass media, and the media was watching like a hawk!

    6. Re:How To Spot E-Vote Tampering? by Livius · · Score: 1

      Do we call it 'tampering' if it was originally manufactured that way? (It's not a bug, it's a feature!)

    7. Re:How To Spot E-Vote Tampering? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, if it says Diebold (or Premier Election Systems), it hasn't been tampered with: it was built rigged to start with. ;)

    8. Re:How To Spot E-Vote Tampering? by joocemann · · Score: 1

      If the machine says Diebold on it, there's a good chance it has been tampered with. qft

      Funny how the diebold ATMs work virtually flawlessly (I use one weekly), yet their voting machines are demonstrated to lack security and produce very inaccurate counts.

      Diebold protects money better than your democracy; coincidence?
    9. Re:How To Spot E-Vote Tampering? by jknyght9 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Regardless of the name their voting systems are not as bad as you think. I red teamed a set of e-voting machines and Diebold/Premier were one of the lesser of the four evils.

    10. Re:How To Spot E-Vote Tampering? by jknyght9 · · Score: 1

      It has been speculated that Diebold changed their e-voting system division to Premier Election Systems because they had been getting some bad press to where Diebold became synonymous with hacked or tampered voting machines. After California they needed a so-called "fresh start."

  6. Not sure about Texas... by sm62704 · · Score: 2, Funny

    But here in Illinois where we're so patriotic that even being dead won't keep you from voting, there is only one question that needs to be asked:

    "Did anyone vote?"

    If yes, there was fraud.

    "Vote early, vote often". Note that our last Republican Governor is in Federal prison, and our last Democratic Governor spent time in prison after he lost to the Republicans.

    Seriously though, the only way to keep an electronic voting machine honest is to use one that spits out a human-readable paper ballot that you, as an election judge, can make sure gets in the ballot box so if there's any doubt, humans can perform a recount.

    --
    mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
    1. Re:Not sure about Texas... by ptbarnett · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Note that our last Republican Governor is in Federal prison, and our last Democratic Governor spent time in prison after he lost to the Republicans.

      And now your current governor has been implicated in the recent trial of Tony Rezko.

      Is there something in the water of Lake Michigan that makes Illinois politicians ethically-challenged?

      Not that Texas has any right to gloat, being (in)famous for "Landslide Lyndon"

    2. Re:Not sure about Texas... by KDR_11k · · Score: 2, Funny

      Is there something in the water of Lake Michigan that makes Illinois politicians ethically-challenged?

      You mean "Is there something in the water of Lake Michigan that makes Illinois politicians bad at getting away with things?"

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
  7. Just like the movies! by pwnies · · Score: 5, Funny

    Look for the flashing lights and sudden appearances of 3d interfaces - because everyone knows that hacking is just like it appears in the movies

    1. Re:Just like the movies! by QUILz · · Score: 5, Funny

      And people bringing in 5 PDAs and some laptops with wires hanging out of them, shouting: "Just give me ONE more minute!"

    2. Re:Just like the movies! by gbobeck · · Score: 1

      You know you are going to owned if one of the voting machines and it's user start to slowly spin in a counter clockwise direction, with the voter in the next booth muttering something about the Gibson.

      --
      Navicula hydraulica plena anguilarum est. Omnes castelli tuus nostri sunt. Ed elli avea del cul fatto trombetta.
  8. First step is easy: by Em+Adespoton · · Score: 4, Insightful

    1. What kind of equipment will you be using?
    There are a number of models which have been shown to be tamperable with no evidence of tampering available at the time of voting. Step 1 is to make sure you aren't using any of these machines.

    1. Re:First step is easy: by loshwomp · · Score: 1

      There are a number of models which have been shown to be tamperable with no evidence of tampering available at the time of voting. Step 1 is to make sure you aren't using any of these machines. If you're going to make an allegation like that, why not support it with a list of the models in question? Or at least a reference, so as to make your claim credible.
    2. Re:First step is easy: by Em+Adespoton · · Score: 1

      If you're going to make an allegation like that, why not support it with a list of the models in question? Or at least a reference, so as to make your claim credible. Because this is something that has been discussed ad-nauseum on /. in the past, and I don't keep up with all the model numbers. I wasn't making an allegation, I was summarizing. I have no reason to have to make my claim credible, as I'm not saying "Model XYZ Diebold voting machine can be undetectably tampered with."

      My statement is similar to me saying (cue car analogy) "There are a number of cars whose gas tanks are placed so that they explode on impact; do not buy one of those cars." Since (almost) everyone already knows this, it becomes a recommendation on something to consider, not an unsubstantiated disparaging remark against Ford for building a pickup truck with the gas tank outside the chassis on the passenger side of the cab.

      I'm sure someone will chime in with a reference though; there've been enough studies done in the last 4 years on the topic (and posted to slashdot).
  9. Can't be done sorry by gd23ka · · Score: 1

    You can't really do anything about it at the level of the voting machine because they will most likely have exploits
    and deliberate backdoors such as insertion of a master configuration card instead of the voting card or perhaps
    gui/keypress combinations and they will be alone with the machine. And then there are also manipulations as the
    scores are communicated to aggregation servers so you're stuck with so many holes it's like carrying water in a
    handbasket.

    The only thing you could do is watch each voter as they operate the machine which is not legal. What you might
    try is not using wifi so to actually inconvenience them to have to come in and stand in line.

  10. Malfunction bigger threat than Hacking. Seal it! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I think you should be more concerned with malfunctioning e-voting systems, in particular situations where the voter believes his/her vote has been recorded as intended, but the final tallies do not reflect the voter's intent.

    A good way to achieve this is to have a verifiable record of the votes cast.

    As far as hacking, you should probably seal the machines with strong tape, including any keyholes, ports, access panels. This would make it easier for you to detect someone tampering with a machine, due to the increased effort required to do so. It also would make it more difficult to tamper with the machine without leaving a trace.

  11. Not you by WindBourne · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The system is set-up to PREVENT voters from fraud. Even on the electronics, it is set-up. Any issue will almost certainly be out of your control. The real problem with the electronics is that the COMPANY who built and service it can commit fraud. And it is next to impossible to detect. All a politician has to do is pay off somebody up high and then the company will do things like last minute software updates in warehouses, that were post inspection. Sadly, it is easy to do.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    1. Re:Not you by Andy+Dodd · · Score: 4, Interesting

      In addition - In most cases the suspicion is not that someone randomly walked in and tampered with the election, but that an election official (such as the person who submitted this to Ask Slashdot) tampered with the election.

      Sad to say it to the submitter, but for many people "Republican" and "E-Voting" instantly casts suspicions of tampering for a wide variety of reasons, including but not limited to significant monetary connections between Diebold (now PES) and the Republican party and a claim from someone from Diebold that they would "deliver the election" or something like that.

      So, sadly, the question as a Republican election coordinator is not
      "How do I prevent tampering", but it is
      "How can I prove that the election was not tampered with" and "How can I prove that *I* did not tamper with the election"

      How? I'm not sure, but based on other requirements a voter-verifiable paper trail is the first step, and not using Diebold/PES is the second (although there is lots of evidence that most other E-Voting vendors are not giving any thought to security whatsoever.)

      --
      retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
    2. Re:Not you by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      Sad to say it to the submitter, but for many people "Republican" and "E-Voting" instantly casts suspicions of tampering for a wide variety of reasons, including but not limited to significant monetary connections between Diebold (now PES) and the Republican party and a claim from someone from Diebold that they would "deliver the election" or something like that.
      While it is true that nearly all (or is it all) of the e-vote systems are controlled by republican CEO's, I am more inclined to believe that these ppl will take a bribe from highest bidder rather than worry too much about politics.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    3. Re:Not you by jknyght9 · · Score: 1

      The answer to "how can I prove..." is certify the systems like California did. Also full research into the e-voting systems prior to purchasing can also save a lot of headaches in the future!

    4. Re:Not you by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You really need to get out more. Almost all the cases of vote fraud in the past few elections are based in the democrats.

  12. Easy by powerlord · · Score: 0

    Your election might have been tampered with if ... ... 90% of the votes are cast for someone not supposed to be on the ballot. ... a voter walks into the voting booth carrying a whole bunch of tools and saying "this may a take a few minutes." ... a voter wheels one of your voting machines out claiming it needs to be "serviced" for a few minutes. ... at the end of the day you find the computed vote tallies don't match the number of voters you've recorded at your polling station ... or the machine's own total of cast votes. ... at the end of the day the "secure" lock for the voting machine is being held together with some duct-tape and a wad of chewing gum.

    Come on everyone! He's asked for our help, chime in! :)

    --
    This space for rent. All reasonable inquiries will be entertained at proprietors discretion.
    1. Re:Easy by powerlord · · Score: 2, Funny
      Should have previewed ... Darn formatting (and the lack of an Edit feature!)

      Your election might have been tampered with if ...
      • ... 90% of the votes are cast for someone not supposed to be on the ballot.
      • ... a voter walks into the voting booth carrying a whole bunch of tools and saying "this may a take a few minutes."
      • ... a voter wheels one of your voting machines out claiming it needs to be "serviced" for a few minutes.
      • ... at the end of the day you find the computed vote tallies don't match the number of voters you've recorded at your polling station ... or the machine's own total of cast votes.
      • ... at the end of the day the "secure" lock for the voting machine is being held together with some duct-tape and a wad of chewing gum.

      --
      This space for rent. All reasonable inquiries will be entertained at proprietors discretion.
  13. First indicator by TRRosen · · Score: 4, Funny

    Bush wins.

    1. Re:First indicator by mapsjanhere · · Score: 1

      Actually, since the question comes from the Republican chair, if Obama gets 60% in a county that voted 60% for Bush the last time, that HAS to be tampering.

      --
      I'm aging rapidly, I bought a new game and had no idea if my machine was good for it.
    2. Re:First indicator by lastchance_000 · · Score: 1

      So you've found evidence of tampering from the last presidential election...

    3. Re:First indicator by SatanicPuppy · · Score: 1

      It's a better indication of tampering if the election results differ wildly from the exit polls. Simply because a district doesn't go the same way from last time, doesn't mean anything, especially when the party in power has such low approval ratings.

      --
      ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
    4. Re:First indicator by mapsjanhere · · Score: 1

      damn, I knew I should have put /sarcasm on into the post...

      --
      I'm aging rapidly, I bought a new game and had no idea if my machine was good for it.
    5. Re:First indicator by ptbarnett · · Score: 1

      It's a better indication of tampering if the election results differ wildly from the exit polls.

      Exit polls don't mean a thing except to the people that gather the info in an attempt to be the first to project an election. They are often incorrect. Why? Because people like me don't appreciate the prediction's effects on elections that are still in progress in later time zones.

      So, I lie to the exit poller. And while I have no evidence to quantify how many are like me, I know I'm not alone.

    6. Re:First indicator by Redneck+Flyboy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I should point out the parties in power have such low approval ratings. Last I checked the Democrat controlled congress has a much lower approval rating (~18%) than president Bush does (~29%). http://www.gallup.com/poll/107242/Congress-Approval-Rating-Ties-Lowest-Gallup-Records.aspx

      --
      "Maintain thy airspeed, lest the ground rise up and smite thee." - Unknown
    7. Re:First indicator by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That would only be if they are running the '04 version. The updated '08 primary patch has Hillary Clinton winning. The new updated '08 version will have McCain winning "by a narrow margin".

    8. Re:First indicator by doktor-hladnjak · · Score: 1

      Yes, but Congress pretty much always has horrible approval ratings. The President less so.

    9. Re:First indicator by shanen · · Score: 1

      Come on and tell the truth. Have you [ptbarnett] *EVER* actually been asked to participate in an exit poll? Of course, you could claim you have--but you've already told us that you're a liar, so I still wouldn't believe you.

      Me? I believe in mathematics. It works very well.

      In fact, it is quite possible to make appropriate mathematical allowances for voters who do choose not to answer or who choose to lie. The only way you could beat mathematics is by getting a large number of the randomly selected participants to lie with you--and it has to be systematic, too, or the liars' effects would mostly cancel each other out. Of course, in that case the pollsters would find out about the conspiracy and again make the appropriate adjustments. If they could collect sufficient information about the size of the conspiracy, it would actually improve the accuracy of their mathematical results. Of course that would depend on whether or not the conspirators are as stupid as you [ptbarnett] sound (based on the sample of one post).

      Actually, the real problem with professional pollsters is that they can deliver any results you are paying them to deliver. However, that doesn't apply in the case of exit polling because in that case you would be paying them to adjust the exit polls to match the vote tampering. Not saying they won't get around to that in the future, but right now there are only two ways that the exit polls could significantly deviate from the actual results. One is that the exit pollsters are extremely lucky, on the order of winning a whole string of lotteries. The other way would be if the math is broken--but I've already stipulated that I believe in the math.

      What you [ptbarnett] actually mean is that figures don't lie, but liars figure. Or maybe not, since you've already told us that you're a liar, and anything else you say becomes dubious.

      --
      Freedom = (Meaningful - Coerced) Choice != (Speech | Beer^2), and sad sock puppets' bad mods avail them naught.
    10. Re:First indicator by ptbarnett · · Score: 1

      Come on and tell the truth. Have you *EVER* actually been asked to participate in an exit poll?

      Not since I moved into a district that is considered "safe", i.e. the vote is predictable. Prior to that, I was approached at almost every election.

      Of course, you could claim you have--but you've already told us that you're a liar, so I still wouldn't believe you.

      And by doing so, you are introducing bias into your results.

      I'll suggest that the reason you believe exit polls is that you WANT them to be true -- because you don't accept the actual results and are desperate to find evidence they are wrong due to fraud, error, or whatever.

    11. Re:First indicator by shanen · · Score: 1

      Gosh, I wish I could get you into a poker game. Oh wait. I'm sure it's too late and you're bankrupt. Do drop us a line when you find work, right?

      --
      Freedom = (Meaningful - Coerced) Choice != (Speech | Beer^2), and sad sock puppets' bad mods avail them naught.
    12. Re:First indicator by ptbarnett · · Score: 1

      Gosh, I wish I could get you into a poker game. Oh wait. I'm sure it's too late and you're bankrupt. Do drop us a line when you find work, right?

      I know you want to believe the worst about me, because it fits your view of the world. Sorry to burst your bubble, but welcome to reality.

      Although I appreciate your concern for me, I'm doing just fine, thank you. Of course, I don't expect you to believe that either, and I'm sure you'll take the opportunity to throw more insults my way.

    13. Re:First indicator by shanen · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      You certainly don't need my help to represent yourself as an idiot.

      However, I would be honored if you would designate me as a foe. I'd explain why, but the explanation is too complicated for an idiot above a certain caliber.

      --
      Freedom = (Meaningful - Coerced) Choice != (Speech | Beer^2), and sad sock puppets' bad mods avail them naught.
  14. Have the machine in public view by Taeolas · · Score: 1

    Just put blinders around the Screen/Interface, and have a single cable going from the blinders to the box that remains in plain sight to everyone. (And that cable should plug into the interface outside the blinders so you can't unplug it without being seen) That should help prevent messing with the machine physically, but there probably isn't anything/much you can do to thwart a software type attack. Thoguh really, I liked the system we had here in New Brunswick (Canada) for our Municipal elections. Scan-card readers, the actual readers out in the open where everyone could see them. The only thing out of sight was when you marked the ballot, and the ballots remained available for the recounts if needed. We had one council seat in Saint John that is going to a re-election because the results were initially 1 vote off one way, then 1 vote off the other way, and finally tied after a recount of the paper ballots that were scanned. (The descrepencies were due to partially spoiled ballots in other sections of the scan cards)

    1. Re:Have the machine in public view by CastrTroy · · Score: 1

      What's wrong with our national elections? Pen and Paper with human counting. It's the most transparent and verifiable (by everyday citizens). And if you east coast guys wouldn't count so fast, we wouldn't have to create laws against releasing results until all the polls were closed.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    2. Re:Have the machine in public view by everphilski · · Score: 1

      Same way we do it here in AL, USA. Scan card readers.

    3. Re:Have the machine in public view by digitrev · · Score: 1

      Why not just do it the good old fashioned way? Go to where you have to vote, let them check you off so you can't vote again, they give you that little piece of paper with the names of the people you're voting for, you go behind the blinder, fill in the bubble with the pen they gave you, fold it up, and drop it in the box just outside the blinder. In other words, pen and paper. Works fine for Ontario, and it's been a while since anyone's been accused of stealing an election.

      --
      Cynical Idealist
    4. Re:Have the machine in public view by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      What's wrong with our national elections is that for the last 8 years we've had
      total crap candidates. Both sides were schmucks. It was so bad that basically you
      had a party split down the middle. Margins in some states were less than what you
      would for a gallup poll.

      THIS is what caused the problems.

      When you have a .5% difference between the two candidates numbers every little
      glitch, malfunction and brain fart becomes magnified in significants beyond all
      normal proportion.

      Electronic voting, like taking your shoes off at the airport was done because
      it was thought of as a visible way of "being seen doing something about it".

      Fixing stuff vs. just making yourself look busy and productive.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    5. Re:Have the machine in public view by CastrTroy · · Score: 1

      Sorry, I was referring to the Canadian system which my parent poster was talking about. The people with the US system is that the guy who gets 50%+1 of the votes gets complete governing power. In a good election system, both parties would have about equal power.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
  15. Looking in the wrong place by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If there's e-voting, there's the potential to tamper. More likely than not, any tampering will not be the result of a voter messing with something or a hacker, but someone on the 'server side' of the transaction; the lack of accountability and accounting is the real issue with these systems.

  16. Re:Someone please... by sm62704 · · Score: 1

    I'd have given him a +1 funny.

    Modding myself offtopic with the NKB checkbox.

    --
    mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
  17. Ultimate vote tampering detection howto: by A+beautiful+mind · · Score: 3, Insightful

    1. Verify that you're using electronic voting machines.
    2. You cannot verify the voting machine itself.
    3. Elections are fraudulent without transparency.

    I maintain that the whole concept of electronic voting machines is so idiotic that anyone who doesn't realise what using one means, is in effect giving up his/her right to vote.

    --
    It takes a man to suffer ignorance and smile
    Be yourself no matter what they say
    1. Re:Ultimate vote tampering detection howto: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And someone who is so idiotic that they didn't realize this just Asked Slashdot. Although he gave it away when he said he was a republican.

      yeah yeah, -1 troll.

    2. Re:Ultimate vote tampering detection howto: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I maintain that the whole concept of electronic voting machines is so idiotic that anyone who doesn't realise what using one means, is in effect giving up his/her right to vote.

      I disagree. The concept of electronic voting machines is not idiotic. True the current implementation of electronic voting by the current generation of machines available do not live up to the promise of what electronic voting can deliver, but this does not mean that the premise is flawed. It would not surprise me to learn that the same argument was used when mechanical voting machines were first introduced.


      Considering that this is the first generation of electronic voting machines, I am very interested in learning what future iterations can bring. While we may not see open source voting machine anytime in the near future, I think we will see more transparency in how they operate. I think we will see redundancy in systems to ensure accuracy. I think we will see systems that address many of the issues of voter hacking and fraud. I believe for the most part, those who manage and operate the election process are fully aware that the entire democratic process hinge on their actions, thus will make sure the process is as fair, open, and honest as possible.

    3. Re:Ultimate vote tampering detection howto: by Ichijo · · Score: 1

      2. You cannot verify the voting machine itself.

      Sure you can, provided that whoever makes it also makes the complete specifications public.

      --
      Any sufficiently unpopular but cohesive argument is indistinguishable from trolling.
    4. Re:Ultimate vote tampering detection howto: by collinstocks · · Score: 1

      What if there were a system for voting that were online encrypted over ssl that used personal information such as birthday, SSN, name, etc to verify that the person actually was who she said she was? This might be more secure than the current voting system, since often you don't need any form of identification in order to vote. This way, someone would have to steal your identity in order to vote in your name, and it would be hard to steal enough identities to cause a significant change in the election results.

      Or are some people still two technologically inept to figure out how to use such a system?

      Perhaps it still has the same faults that electronic voting today has: that the manufacturer can cause fraud.

    5. Re:Ultimate vote tampering detection howto: by bit01 · · Score: 1

      While we may not see open source voting machine anytime in the near future,

      Already in use in at least one place.

      ---

      Stop using tab characters in your code!

    6. Re:Ultimate vote tampering detection howto: by Sigg3.net · · Score: 0

      4. ???
      5. Profit!!

  18. You won't see most of the fraud by Dracos · · Score: 5, Informative

    The most egregious fraud on electronic voting machines is completely out of your control, and most likely happens out of sight of any precinct level election official: in the software that is installed on the machines. Unless you have the authority and knowledge to inspect many thousands of lines of code on each machine, you are powerless in this regard.

    However, most machines have some type of USB, SD card, or other hardware interface that might be protected with some type of tamper proofing, like the foil seals on aspirin bottles. This is probably beyond your authority to put in place, though.

    The only thing you can do is pay attention to the tabulations, if you get to see them.

    I recommend you watch Hacking Democracy for insight on what to watch for.

  19. I'm taking this as a legitimate question by beadfulthings · · Score: 3, Insightful

    (In other words, I'm a Democrat striving for civility.) I would suggest to you that most types of fraudulent activity will take place where you can't see them--that is, not in your presence. These machines have a lot of vulnerabilities, and it's not necessary to stand there and tamper with them while you are pretending to vote. My first thought on being confronted with one of Maryland's soon-to-be-vanished Diebold systems was that I could have brought in a pocket full of cards containing whatever I wanted them to contain. Assuming that your jurisdiction is still making gestures towards the secrecy of the ballot (via the privacy screens), you and your counterpart wouldn't even see that. I suppose that the poll watcher/election judge/whoever who is assigned to escort voters to the machines and get them started could watch for clumsy fraudsters dropping extra cards out of their pockets. Aside from that, if the fraud happens, you won't see it.

    --
    "Here's what's happening. You're starting to drive like your Dad..." - Red Green
    1. Re:I'm taking this as a legitimate question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When I worked as an election judge in Maryland (Montgomery County), something I noticed was just how noisy inserting and ejecting a voter access card was. If someone ejected a card and inserted another one, the election judge watching the machines would have noticed.

  20. How to Ensure there Isn't any Tampering? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Simple, take all electronic voting machines (especially ones that are made by Diebold) and throw them out with the trash.

    Then have all voters use paper ballots and do it the "old-fashioned" way.

    Also, my understanding is that the greatest tampering threat with EVMs (electronic voting machines) is tampering done AFTER the votes have been collected (say by "Republican Party Precinct Chairs" who may have came up through the ranks via the Tom DeLay School of Gerrymandering and Election Re-engineering). If there's no human-verifiable paper-trail, and the votes only exist as bits, it is essentially impossible to validate the results afterward.

    -AC

  21. Black Box Voting Org by OzPeter · · Score: 5, Informative

    In all fairness to the /. crowd, I'd say that the best place to ask this question would be the forums of http://www.blackboxvoting.org/ From what I have read of their analysis of previous elections I would guess that they have seen it all before.

    --
    I am Slashdot. Are you Slashdot as well?
    1. Re:Black Box Voting Org by OzPeter · · Score: 3, Informative

      replying to my own post. I found some analysis that I had seen before about Sequoia e-voting machines used in the 2004 presidential race in Palm Beach County (FL). When I first saw this data I was astounded at what their analysis showed. Assuming that BBV is a fair and honest non-profit (after all you should be suspicious of everyones motives when dealing with things like this) what they found is horrifying. http://www.bbvforums.org/forums/messages/1954/19421.html?1141918235

      --
      I am Slashdot. Are you Slashdot as well?
    2. Re:Black Box Voting Org by R2.0 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Fuck fairness to the Slashdot crowd - all the answers so far have been along the lines of
      - Diebold is evil
      - Bush is evil
      - You can't do anything, so don't try
      - the election is already rigged

      I'm waiting for "You are a republican, so I'm not telling you. Nyaahhh nyaahhhh"

      Only one has had a real suggestion - seals on physical access - and even that was surrounded by "but your fucked no matter what you do."

      --
      "As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." A. Carlson
    3. Re:Black Box Voting Org by Red+Flayer · · Score: 1
      I was going to make the same point you did, but would have added in some snark:

      From the 'ask slashdot' question:

      ...and I want advice from those of you who are experts...
      *crickets*

      You must be new here.

      If you want experts, go to a forum where fewer than 90% of the commenters are armchair experts or hobbyists (myself included for many topics on slashdot).
      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    4. Re:Black Box Voting Org by kaaona · · Score: 1

      Also, do try to see the HBO documentary "Hacking Democracy" which featured folks from BlackBoxVoting.

    5. Re:Black Box Voting Org by dbcad7 · · Score: 1
      I'm waiting for "You are a republican, so I'm not telling you. Nyaahhh nyaahhhh"

      I think the poster was expecting it too... Why not just state that he is a monitor at the polling station and leave out the fact that he is a republican ?.. smells like flaimbait.. and then the whole bit about the voter behind the computer as the one to watch for hacking the vote.. even a republican judge can not possibly be that stupid.

      No way this is a legitimate question. It's flamebait.

      --
      waiting for ad.doubleclick.net
    6. Re:Black Box Voting Org by Bourbonium · · Score: 1

      Another good documentary on this topic (which also features input from the folks at Black Box Voting) is Invisible Ballots (see http://www.invisibleballots.com/ and http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0437258) directed by William Gazecki, a former CNN reporter who turned into an investigative documentary producer after covering the Waco, Texas massacre in 1993 and became jaded at how the media dealt with politically sensitive stories. His first documentary, Waco: The Rules of Engagement, grew out of his experience covering the siege for CNN and was nominated for an Oscar for Best Documentary Feature.

    7. Re:Black Box Voting Org by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The sad truth is that without access to the machine's logic (read: software) or a paper trail it is impossible to determine whether fraud has occurred. Compare this with the humble ATM (a relatively mature technology of similar basic design) that produces a nice paper record of your transaction for your verification.

    8. Re:Black Box Voting Org by jesdynf · · Score: 1

      Err.

      I'm sorry.

      They're fucked no matter what they do. There's *no way to win*. Jesus and all His angels couldn't solve this problem as written. There is no paper trail, so it *doesn't work*. We can have ourselves a nice session of Security Theater -- claim that pirate hats are the optimal shape to hold Sekrit Antennas -- but there's *no point*. The submitter is asking how to stop people from haxoring the vote *during the vote*. That the question was asked is commendable, but that's not the primary attack vector at all.

      They're fucked no matter what they do. Got it? Got it memorized?

      --
      Yahoo! Pipes are awesome. How awesome? http://pipes.yahoo.com/jesdynf/slashdot
    9. Re:Black Box Voting Org by RavenManiac · · Score: 1

      BBV mailing list yesterday requested techs and analysts to review election results. Software tools available here, http://www.bbvforums.org/forums/messages/1954/74942.html.

      Brad Friedman, http://bradblog.com/ and Mark Crispin Miller of NYU, http://www.markcrispinmiller.blogspot.com/ report almost daily about election fraud. Yes, that's ELECTION FRAUD, not voter fraud.

      E-Vote tampering can be lessened by having verifiable paper ballots, and using open-source software for both machines and central tallying. E-vote tampering can be eliminated by using hand-counted paper ballots, and requiring recounts when the resulting spread is 1% or less.

      E-voting is very profitable for voting machine companies and owners like Chuck Hagel who miraculously won a Senate election after being so far behind--until votes were miraculously added overnight for an amazing victory.

    10. Re:Black Box Voting Org by R2.0 · · Score: 1

      Again, you missed the point. HE is requesting help on doing HIS job well. One of the parts of his job is ensuring that individuals don't mess with the ballots. He is not responsible for the entire election system, just his part of it, and he is asking for help. Why is it so hard to help someone do their job well, even if the overall enterprise is suspect.

      If an inexperienced soccer goalkeeper asks for tips for an upcoming game where the other players may (or may not) have been bribed to throw the game, are you going to tell him to just stand there and let the ball go by, because the overall game may be rigged?

      If the man wants to do his job well and is humble enough to ask for help, people should either give him that help or just not say anything.

      --
      "As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." A. Carlson
    11. Re:Black Box Voting Org by R2.0 · · Score: 1

      No shit. All of that is completely true, and totally irrelevant. The OP was asking how he could do his job better, not how to fix the election system.

      "Hey, I'm hungry. Can you teach me how to fish?
      "Using a fishing rod is participating in the global economic system which is inherently unfair and you cannot possibly change it"
      "Thanks for the lecture, but I'm still hungry. Any ideas?"
      "Yes - starve in the comforting knowledge that your death is caused by events outside your control."

      --
      "As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." A. Carlson
  22. Watch the tubes by Foofoobar · · Score: 1

    Apparently there are these tubes that stuff moves through. Try to make sure no one is crawling through them with bombs like Al-Keida.

    --
    This is my sig. There are many like it but this one is mine.
  23. Just ask the votes by pieterh · · Score: 4, Insightful

    There is a standard, well developed way to determine if a ballot has been rigged. Tampering with e-voting machines is just the most modern technique, in the past people have stuffed ballot boxes or simply lied about the results. Easy stuff.

    So, standard solution: ask the people as they leave the polling station.

    This is called an "exit poll" and it's remarkably accurate. Except of course in the last couple of elections in the USA, where the exit polls utterly failed, especially in districts that had new shiny e-voting machines with no paper trail.

    1. Re:Just ask the votes by A+beautiful+mind · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Except of course in the last couple of elections in the USA, where the exit polls utterly failed, especially in districts that had new shiny e-voting machines with no paper trail.
      Yeah, weird thing. Exit poll doesn't match election results in Ukraine: the verdict is election fraud.

      Exit poll doesn't match election results in the USA: oh, the exit poll must be wrong!
      --
      It takes a man to suffer ignorance and smile
      Be yourself no matter what they say
    2. Re:Just ask the votes by nexuspal · · Score: 1

      Given an appropriate sample size, taken at different times throughout the day, one can say with a specific certainty who won or who didn't. When the exit polls (done properly) and the electronic votes disagree (and its statistically significant), you most likely have tampering. As was done our last election ;-)...

      --
      I've read Slashdot for the last 5 years, and now I start posting... Go figure :-P
    3. Re:Just ask the votes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If exit polls are soooooo accurate, why do we even bother counting the votes?

      in the past people have stuffed ballot boxes or simply lied about the results. Easy stuff. Yah, like it is impossible to lie in an exit poll.

      You people will never get over the fact that republicans can actually win elections.
    4. Re:Just ask the votes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you trying to get him arrested? It is illegal for a polling location worker to interrogate voters. It is a federal crime and a felony. Locally two black male polling workers each spent over two years in federal prison for trying to intimidate white voters. Imagine what some liberal judge would do to this guy if they put a member of a protected class in prison.

      > This is called an "exit poll" and it's remarkably accurate.

      Those are extremely inaccurate. You have to have a random sample for any sort of polling to be accurate. Typically with Democrats you have loud-mouth idiots with no jobs that have plenty of time to talk to the media. Just look at all of the Democrats that watch and are on shows like Oprah and Springer. With people with real jobs that vote Republican, they typically do not put up with media morons so they won't answer the questions. Just watch an exit poll person at work. You'll generally only see the worst of society talking to them. That's why they're always over represent Democrats.

      The last time I worked at a polling location, the local TV station interviewed about four dozen people. Every single one of them was black. Of course at 11PM they tried to create a story about voter fraud because they claimed 80% of the people supported the Democrat mayor, but the successful independent candidate won easily.

    5. Re:Just ask the votes by mveloso · · Score: 1

      This is a useless statement. There is no expectation that what people tell you is anywhere close to how they voted. It's a secret ballot for a reason.

      Given that, there actually is no way to tell if a vote was recorded correctly unless you can map a vote to an individual on a 1-to-1 basis, which mostly obviates the secret ballot concept.

      Note that paper ballots have the same problem.

    6. Re:Just ask the votes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      This is called an "exit poll" and it's remarkably accurate. Except of course in the last couple of elections in the USA, where the exit polls utterly failed, especially in districts that had new shiny e-voting machines with no paper trail.


      http://www.mysterypollster.com/main/2004/12/have_the_exit_p.html

      Here is the documentation on previous errors. First, from the Washington Post's Richard Morin:

              The networks' 1992 national exit poll overstated Democrat Bill Clinton's advantage by 2.5 percentage points, about the same as the Kerry skew

      Warren Mitofsky, who ran the 2004 exit poll operation along with partner Joe Lenski, wrote the following in the Spring 2003 issue of Public Opinion Quarterly (p. 51):

              An inspection of within-precinct error in the exit poll for senate and governor races in 1990, 1994 and 1998 shows an understatement of the Democratic candidate for 20 percent of the 180 polls in that time period and an overstatement 38 percent of the time...the most likely source of this error is differential non-response rates for Democrats and Republicans:

      From the internal CNN report on the network's performance on Election Night 2000 (p. 48 of pdf):

              Warren Mitofsky and Joe Lenski, heads of the CNN/CBS Decision Team, told us in our January 26 interview with them that in VNS's use of exit polls on Election Day 2000, the exit polls overstated the Gore vote in 22 states and overstated the Bush vote in 9 states. In the other 19 states, the polls matched actual results. There was a similar Democratic candidate overstatement in 1996 and a larger one in 1992.

      In short, Mitofsky and Lenski have reported Democratic overstatements to some degree in every election since 1990. Moreover, all of Lenski and Mitofsky's statements were on the record long before Election Day 2004.
    7. Re:Just ask the votes by urcreepyneighbor · · Score: 2, Informative

      This is called an "exit poll" and it's remarkably accurate. Really? People do lie, you know. I lie - out of principle - whenever I'm polled.

      According to my local papers, I'm illiterate. :)

      Except of course in the last couple of elections in the USA, where the exit polls utterly failed, Race is going to be a big factor for 08. White folks, not liking to be perceived as "racist", will lie their lily white asses off if they're asked who they voted for.

      Well, those that care. As for trolls like me, I have nothing to lose. Society has already shunned me. I'm voting for McCain or Barr.
      --
      "The fight for freedom has only just begun." - Geert Wilders
    8. Re:Just ask the votes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      > Given an appropriate sample size

      The problem with that is that the sample is not random. People with jobs generally vote Republican so they won't spend the time talking to someone in the media. Plus due to the extreme liberal bias of the media in this country successful people are also less likely to talk to the media.

      If you ever have a chance to watch an exit poller, then do it. You'll see them talk to some of the worst of society. That's why they're almost always scewed in support of the Democrats.

    9. Re:Just ask the votes by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 2, Informative

      So, standard solution: ask the people as they leave the polling station.

      This is called an "exit poll" and it's remarkably accurate. Except of course in the last couple of elections in the USA, where the exit polls utterly failed, especially in districts that had new shiny e-voting machines with no paper trail.


      You can't make exit polls part of the official process, as then it would no longer be a secret ballot. Unless you do an exit poll with complete anonymity, in which case you're just making people vote twice.

      Also, as a resident of the west coast, I hate exit polls with a passion. Getting the early poll results from the east coast before our voting locations even open has to influence voters in an extremely negative way. I'd prefer the press be banned from reporting any polls or results until after polls close on the west coast, personally. Damned free press. ;)

    10. Re:Just ask the votes by liegeofmelkor · · Score: 2, Informative

      First, let me say that I'm not trying to say that e-voting machines are secure. They have a number of unique vulnerabilities which could be corrected with proper planning and procedures.

      However, suggesting the reliability of exit polls as an indicator of tampering is not a solution. There are social considerations involved in conducting the poll. The buzzword floating around this season is the Bradley effect and described the observed tendency of exit polls to systematically overreport the performance of minority candidates. A cause is presumed to be the voter's fear of being branded racist by the poll-taker. Additionally, a number other factors in poll methodology can bias results, such as the time of day at which exit poll-taking ceases (with respect to poll closing time) (see Exit polls).

      Granted, if major tampering at a location has occurred, then exit poll will likely not match the polling location results. However, you can't use the converse of this statement to assert a rigged election (see any discussion of a logical contrapositive vs logical converse). The exit poll can only serve as an indicator that further investigation of tampering might be prudent. But, without an intelligently designed paper trail and paper trail chain of custody, those investigations won't find anything...

      .
    11. Re:Just ask the votes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      spoken like a true racist ;-)

    12. Re:Just ask the votes by bongomanaic · · Score: 1

      Exit polls are not perfect -- in the past they have been a long way out in the UK and Germany when there has been no suspicion of significant fraud. Non-response and selection bias can be more important than sampling error.

    13. Re:Just ask the votes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is a standard, well developed way to determine if a ballot has been rigged. Tampering with e-voting machines is just the most modern technique, in the past people have stuffed ballot boxes or simply lied about the results. Easy stuff.

      So, standard solution: ask the people as they leave the polling station.

      This is called an "exit poll" and it's remarkably accurate. Except of course in the last couple of elections in the USA, where the exit polls utterly failed, especially in districts that had new shiny e-voting machines with no paper trail. Our system is based on the secret ballot. Well educated voters know this and often lie in exit polls. Why should they tell anyone how they voted? Additionally, if people were reequired to voice the way they voted to verify their ballot the secret ballot is nullified and they may well feel intimidated or pressured, especially minority party voters in a precinct. The founders were pretty smart. Bring back the paper ballot. Ditch the machine.

      Anonymous Coward but Proud Luddite Voter
  24. Start with the obvious by cjb658 · · Score: 1

    On election day (since the machine could have an internal clock and work just fine any other day), leave one voting machine alone, and at the end of the day, cast your ballot on it (this may be necessary to "activate" it).

    Then check the machine and see if your vote was counted correctly.

    1. Re:Start with the obvious by Em+Adespoton · · Score: 2, Informative

      On election day (since the machine could have an internal clock and work just fine any other day), leave one voting machine alone, and at the end of the day, cast your ballot on it (this may be necessary to "activate" it).

      Then check the machine and see if your vote was counted correctly. Expensive, but an extremely good idea; I'd add that you should have a number of people cast ballots who will cast known ballots.

      If you make sure all administrative openings are taped over with tamper-resistant tape, keep one (random) stataion aside during the voting and then have a "control" group vote using it, that's about all you can do from your end, apart from preventing e-stations from being used in the first place.
    2. Re:Start with the obvious by dave420 · · Score: 1

      And if the fraudsters were smart enough to make their code only corrupt the votes once more than a few dozen have been cast, that won't show anything. The fraudsters have complete free-reign over the counting, so it's impossible to tell. Even on an untouched box, you just can't tell. If you can't tell, it's not democracy.

  25. Not much you can do (as others have mentioned) by joggle · · Score: 1

    I'm not sure if there's much you can do unfortunately. I don't think you're allowed to do exit polling since you're a precinct judge. If somebody was able to do some exit polling at your precinct you'd at least be able to see if those numbers are similar to the final tally to see if any tampering happened.

  26. New tag - didtheotherguywin by Overzeetop · · Score: 1

    It's the first answer I thought of.

    --
    Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
  27. chain of custody by garyrich · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If it is tampered with, it is probably going to before you ever see it. Your watch is not a good target. Too many people and a single hacked machine or two will stand out like a sore thumb to statistical analysis. Much better to get at a bunch of them while they are waiting to be distributed to the polling stations.

    Are you even an interesting target? Would a 2% shading of your numbers change cascading electoral numbers? The perfect crime would be to hack hundreds of machines in a critical state's critical swing districts and then shade the numbers by the tiniest amount needed to do the job. See Ohio in 2004. That kind of electoral sharpshooting is beyond my expertise, but it's part of what makes Rove the power that he is.

    Where did your machine come from? Who guarded it and how? Where did they get it from? Can it be opened with a hotel mini-bar key?

    --
    -- your Web browser is Ronald Reagan
  28. Pay Attention to Low Tech Fraud by Sponge+Bath · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Your post's enumeration of duties seems the best place to focus your efforts. Checking IDs and sign in sheets, preventing voter intimidation, and generally keeping a lid on procedure seems more important than being distracted by the possibility of a subtle electronic scam. Electronic fraud would most likely have been done to the machines before you get to see them and would be undetectable if done right. If done wrong, it will probably just look like a broken machine.

    1. Re:Pay Attention to Low Tech Fraud by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Checking IDs and sign in sheets, preventing voter intimidation, and generally keeping a lid on procedure seems more important than being distracted by the possibility of a subtle electronic scam.

      Checking IDs in some places is considered voter intimidation, and depending on his state laws IDs might not be required.

  29. You can't by Shagg · · Score: 1

    You're not going to spot it, that's the problem. For all you know the machines will have already been tampered with before you even open the polls.

    --
    Unix is user friendly, it's just selective about who its friends are.
  30. Focus beyond "voting day" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    As numerous others have noted, I don't think it's a high probability that anyone will try tampering with a machine while it's out there on the polling station floor with your (and presumably others') eyes on it.

    You might want to find out what kind of process is in place to ensure the machines arrive at your facility in a "clean" state (i.e. they can be proved to accurately record and tabulate a series of test votes) ... though it may be there is no way for you to guarantee this.

    Second precaution: nobody, absolutely *nobody* gets unsupervised access to the machines while they are in storage prior to voting day. Somebody with a pop machine key and a USB stick can do in five minutes what ten thousand voters wouldn't be able to do on election day.

  31. honesty is tricky by Jaazaniah · · Score: 2, Informative

    Unlike our first commentor, this is a more serious approach to the problem. Depending on the model of machine you're using, there's really no way to spot it as it's happening given your restriction set. Your problem is not with "box" stuffer vulnerability, but record vulnerability - Slashdot's collective outcry has been because there was no security or checks and balances put into Diebold's (and their later off-shoots) machines, causing potential for huge abuse at any point before voting, and any point after voting until announcements are made. We think contracts were pushed to facilitate this weakness in the system, but are powerless to change it individually. As a disclaimer, the following measures, even if followed to the letter, will not guarantee vote security if using machines with the above mentioned vulnerabilities, and will not permit any politician to pretend otherwise. That said, here are problems on the systems themselves that should not be allowed by default to address your time of interest (voting); open ports - of the system has a floppy drive, a cd rom drive, or any sort of pluggable port besides the power cord, that is accessable with moderate difficulty, that's a breach waiting to happen. Ask your technitions this specific question - "are there any IR or radio devices in these terminals?" A program built to listen for wireless devices is just as serious as a USB port being open. Ask them about the system inputs. If there are keyboards, "have you disabled all possible shortcut key combinations to prevent system access?" There is more that could possibly go wrong, but I'm sure Slashdot will have plenty to say. P.S. Hope you weren't expecting an overall warm welcome - your party's reputation here was shredded and torched over the past 8 years.

  32. Block the Vote. by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 0, Flamebait
    I am one of the Republican Party Precinct Chairs in Harris County, Texas. ... I want advice ... on what to watch for to make sure there is no fraudulant activity at my precinct during the election.

    Let me fix that: "I want advise on how to tamper with my machines and not get caught."

    [Heh, trolling is fun.]

    --
    It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
  33. Quite simple... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... vote on paper. The only thing that works, really. There is no way to really be certain that no tampering happened. There are just too many ways. To check every machine would take experts weeks.
    So: vote on paper. Like the Netherlands. The threw away all their Nedap machines. Wise thing to do indeed.

  34. HBO Documentary "Hacking Democracy" by Essron · · Score: 1

    After sorting thru blackboxvoting.org and .com and otherwise trying to stay abreast of this stuff for years, I have to admit that the HBO documentary I saw last year blew the doors off any other analysis I have ever seen. Also, it makes sense to people who don't understand hardware, network security, or statistics, only sparse attention span required.

    Check it out: http://www.hbo.com/docs/programs/hackingdemocracy/synopsis.html

  35. before, during, after by beegle · · Score: 5, Informative

    I think it's important to realize that voting machines are so insecure that preventing fraud entirely is impossible. That said,

    1) Ensure that the machines are physically safe before the election. Don't leave them in an insecure area between the time that you check them to ensure that the counts are at zero (and DO check that) and the time that voting begins. Allow nobody near the machines without both ID and a witness at all times, including yourself (you don't want to be accused of anything), ESPECIALLY if they claim to work for the company that makes the machines. In fact, if anyone you don't know shows up to work on the machines, get approval from as far up the chain of command as can be managed and WRITE DOWN the name, time, etc. if it happens. Consider some sort of tamper-evident seal for the area where the machines are stored (your local trucking company can provide you with a handful of the ones that they use on freight trailers).

    2) Watch for voters who are holding either memory cards or keys. The best-publicized ways of messing with a machine involve unlocking the machine and/or inserting a card with altered data. Keep in mind that the memory cards can be a lot smaller than those giant plastic cases around some of the official cards. Also keep in mind that if you see this, it might just be somebody with a spare memory card for their camera and a set of car keys.

    3) After the polls close, physical access becomes a big deal again. Don't allow anyone near the machines or cards without ID and a witness, including yourself. Ensure that the machines are locked away, and find out who has a copy of the key to the room/closet/truck/whatever.

    --
    --
    1. Re:before, during, after by plankrwf · · Score: 1

      Impossible? Perhaps not. It is really a question of using the famous (it is here in the Netherlands) 'four-eye principle'. Just as you would for humans (one doing it, the other one observing), you could do this for computers as well. Consider for instance two different types of computer systems, preferable from (many) different companies, that would make it easier/more foolproof perhaps: the first shows name to the voter in an LCD screen, i.e. is your standard voting machine. The second computer is connected to a camera observing the LCD screen. With a (open source/verifiable)quasi-random (random seed!) generator it would determine to check - for instance - the 1st, 3rd, 8th, 17 etc vote. How? By getting the official 'vote' from the first computer, and comparing it to the corresponding (OCR technology) vote according to the videa. Seal the video (tampering later is provable), make sure each vote is indeed 'given' to the other computer etc etc. I would guess 'cheating' the video is much more difficult than cheating 'the electrons', certainly if the video image would be of some low quality, standard webcam, not mounted to secure so lapses would be shown etc etc, perhaps a moving clock in the picture, whatever. Just an idea though... Comments?

    2. Re:before, during, after by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      @beegle's before, during and after: Good advice, but shouldn't all precincts' officials be trained in proper security for voting machines before they are allowed to be put into use? Any lapse or breakdown should trigger a fail safe backup so voters are not disenfranchised, (even if the previous method used in the precinct is substituted & allowable by law). If the votes fall into the contested column until verification, so be it, but the possibility of machine failure should be considered prior to election day. Computer systems at the library and grocery store sometimes fail, bringing them to a standstill with no nefarious underlying reason. It's the nature of the beast and should be expected and provided for.
      Anonymous Coward, Proud Luddite Voter

  36. Bird's eye view? by SoundGuyNoise · · Score: 2, Funny
    You said you had to be "behind" a table, but is there a restriction to how high you can sit?

    A hoverchair would provide a great view of the room.

    --
    You never expect irony, do you?
    Want to be a professional wrestler? Visit www.iyfwrestling.com
    @iyfwrestling
    1. Re:Bird's eye view? by dcollins · · Score: 1

      Wow, I didn't know that MODOK was a GOP Precinct Chair in the state of Texas. Sort of makes sense, though.

      --
      We know where leadership by an anti-intellectual "strongman" who scapegoats minorities and likes boisterous rallies goes
  37. Do you have time to replace them all ? by C0vardeAn0nim0 · · Score: 1

    if you do, scrap whatever you have there and buy brasilian electronic ballots.

    they're not tamper proof, but i bet they're a lot more resilient than anything from diebold.

    other than that, what i can advise is to put as many sticker seals as you can. any place where two or more casing parts touch each other (covers, joints, seams, whatever) put a sticker there. if there's a key hole, cover with a sticker. this will help with detecting any physical tampering that could give an atacker access to the internals of the units, one of the ways an atacker could use to get access to and change the voting information.

    this is one of the security measures used in our ballots here in brasil. we have been using stickers since as log as i remember, even on the old ballot canvas bags.

    again, it's not perfect, but creates extra dificulty for the atacker, and make it easier for you to spot anything wrong, which might be just what you need.

    --
    What ? Me, worry ?
    1. Re:Do you have time to replace them all ? by mdmkolbe · · Score: 1

      put as many sticker seals as you can

      Unfortunately our stickers can be removed and replaced without breaking them. (See some of the Black Box Voting videos.)

  38. Spot tampering? That's easy. by Millennium · · Score: 1

    When and if the candidate you like doesn't win, cry fraud at every opportunity, and don't stop insisting until you've proven it. When the candidate you like wins, insist that the vote is airtight and rock-solid.

    That's pretty much all there is to it.

  39. I'm glad that you care by jlazzaro74 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I'm a resident of Galveston right next door to you, and I'm really glad to hear that people in my area are thinking about this. Unfortunately, there probably aren't many things you can do during actual voting without appearing to be violating the voters privacy or interfering in the process, this is why the ability to conduct an audit in the event of fishy results is so critical.

    The best I can suggest is to make your concerns heard among your peers and superiors, make sure that as many people as possible know that this is an issue we should *all* be concerned with. The more reasonable people who speak up the less we look like a fringe group of paranoid geeks. Other than that, find out as much as you can about the machines you are using. Do they have a paper audit trail? If not, who approved their purchase and why? Look them up by make and model, have they been broken before?

    To slashdot users, enough with the trite smart-ass responses. Here is someone who is ostensibly trying to keep things fair, lets give him the benefit of the doubt (besides, our counties are so red he doesn't need to tamper to win) and try to come up with solutions. We have been complaining about voter machine vulnerabilities for years, now someone is finally listening. Do we jump down his throat, or do we welcome him to the table?

    Spoken as a registered Democrat who desperately wants his vote to be counted.

  40. You're kidding, right? by hyades1 · · Score: 1, Flamebait

    A cynic might suggest that someone who wanted to ensure they didn't get caught manipulating the vote would surely seek input from a community uniquely suited to catching them out or, for that matter, hacking the system.

    I can't imagine that the person honestly doesn't know any shenanigans would take place long before the machines were on public display.

    --
    I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
  41. You Can't. by dave420 · · Score: 1

    That's the whole problem with these voting machines. Because the entire process is shielded from view by the code being proprietary, it's impossible to guarantee no-one is fudging the numbers.

    So, to sum up: You can't.

  42. Vote Verification by Internet by srobert · · Score: 3, Interesting

    This is admittedly a little off-topic as it doesn't answer the original poster's questions, but I'd like to see a national system where, when I vote I'm issued a random number. When I get home I can look up my number on the net and it will show how I voted. That way I at least know how my own vote was counted.

    1. Re:Vote Verification by Internet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      we cant vote online until a defense contractor is brought in and spends millions delaying the project until laws are changed in 2020 allowing us to vote at the secretary of states office using our old biometric federal id cards we were issued in 2012

    2. Re:Vote Verification by Internet by xilet · · Score: 1

      The reason that won't happen is then vote selling could really happen. I give you $20 to vote for bob, you go do so and give me your number so I can verify it.

    3. Re:Vote Verification by Internet by Stormy+Dragon · · Score: 1

      The problem is that once it becomes possible to verify after the fact that you voted a particular way, it becomes possible to buy and sell votes.

    4. Re:Vote Verification by Internet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's a known problem with that: the selling of votes. It has to be impossible to prove who you voted for. If you can get the random number, you can show it to someone else, and they can check how you voted.

      Take a look at Punchscan. It sought to provide that nice end-to-end guarentee without proving who you voted for (cryptography is amazing!)

      Basically, you could prove that your vote was read as cast, but cannot prove which way you cast it. You can then prove, with a high degree of certainty that the votes were tallied properly. But they destroy the piece of evidence needed to prove who you voted for.

      It turns out to be a REALLY hard little problem.

    5. Re:Vote Verification by Internet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you trust e-voting machines makers to implement in their hardware a random number generator robust enough to guarantee your privacy ?

    6. Re:Vote Verification by Internet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I thought of this too... but there's another problem to solve; confirming each vote is tied to an actual person. For that, why not take a tally of the number of people who walk in and vote at a polling station, and confirm that this is the number of votes registered for said polling station. Perhaps a light would go off above each voting station when the vote is electronically cast and the monitors would record the number of times they saw the light go off. If this is done everywhere, it would provide another level of verification. But I agree with the other posts, paper ballets work. And so what if it costs a little bit more to provide this transparency.

    7. Re:Vote Verification by Internet by caitriona81 · · Score: 1

      This is actually very, very, very bad. The reason we have a secret ballot is to make it difficult to obtain votes by coercion. You should be able to tell for sure at the polling booth how your vote was counted - but only at the moment you are standing there should there be any possibility for a vote to be connected to an individual voter. While this seems far-fetched now, if votes were individually traceable, we'd have far greater problems of election fraud to concern ourselves with - which would include the use of violence to force people to vote a certain way.

    8. Re:Vote Verification by Internet by jemenake · · Score: 1

      Exactly. About the closest I think we can come is PunchScan. As I recall, it lets you verify that your vote (via its receipt number) made it into the system, but you can't (as an individual) verify who it was cast for. I forget how it's all done, but I remember that it was pretty clever. Just a few dozen people checking their receipt (or checking the randomizing tables before the election) makes it highly unlikely that vote tampering of an appreciable scale would go uncaught.

    9. Re:Vote Verification by Internet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A lot of people think they want this. The problem is that it permits voter intimidation and vote buying. It defeats the purpose of a _secret_ ballot.

      Think this way:
        - An unethical boss says: "Vote republican, and bring back your random number, or I'll fire you."
        - A wealthy partisan says: "I'll pay $10,000 for your random number if you voted democrat."

      With a secret ballot, the voter doesn't have any way to prove one way or the other, and cannot be intimidated based on, nor sell his/her vote.

    10. Re:Vote Verification by Internet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Aside from the issue of supposedly assigning each citizen an "anonymous", "random" number -- what would you do if you found that when you got home your vote was counted incorrectly, if you didn't have an official paper of some kind to back up your assertion.

      And if you had said piece of paper, why not just require the voting board to use a copy of those pieces of papers as a sanity check to ensure the electronic vote is (statistically) identical?

    11. Re:Vote Verification by Internet by bugs2squash · · Score: 1

      After voting is done, print out a bar code and human readable number by way of a receipt. Give the voter the option to print further "receipts" that would correspond to having voted for any candidate they wished, so that they could potentially pretend to a third party that they had voted in any way they liked.

      Any receipt number could be entered into the internet to show the voting that it represents, or scanned at wal-mart or something to show the same result.

      The numbers chosen would be cryptographically signed so that independent authorities could distinguish genuine voter receipts from either totaly bogus ones, or ones that had been generated by the voter at the booth. Hold the key in escrow somewhere.

      That way, anyone buying a vote can be given a receipt that shows that the vote was cast as purchased, but would not be able to tell if it was the actual vote that was registered.

      Anyone casting a real vote can use the real receipt online as the parent poster suggests

      There is no need to put a timestamp on the receipt or the voters name, and you can have a friend pick one up for you if you really want to show it to an employer.

      Anyone looking up vast quantities of bogus votes could be rounded up and shot (subject to rounding errors)

      --
      Nullius in verba
    12. Re:Vote Verification by Internet by bugs2squash · · Score: 1

      plus this way, A voter can get $20 for every candidate on the ballot. Sounds like a good way to re-distribute wealth.

      --
      Nullius in verba
    13. Re:Vote Verification by Internet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is admittedly a little off-topic as it doesn't answer the original poster's questions, but I'd like to see a national system where, when I vote I'm issued a random number. When I get home I can look up my number on the net and it will show how I voted. That way I at least know how my own vote was counted. While your intentions are noble, this is an extremely bad idea.

      Any system where a user gets a token that can be tied back to their individual vote makes the users a target for vote buying or intimidation.

    14. Re:Vote Verification by Internet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Any such system allows people to sell their votes and provide proof that they voted according to the agreement. Eliminating proof of how an individual voted was a deliberate reform

    15. Re:Vote Verification by Internet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In addition to having your own random number, you should be given a receipt with that number, what your votes were, and a digital signature code. That way, if the online tool doesn't match how you voted, you can prove how you voted.

    16. Re:Vote Verification by Internet by Manchot · · Score: 1

      The same web site could be configured to allow for the creation of dummy ballots, in which the voter makes a (fake) record of having voted a certain way. Since the ballot ID would be given in the voting booth, any potential vote buyers or pressurers (e.g., a boss) wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

    17. Re:Vote Verification by Internet by rew · · Score: 1

      This opens up vote buying: Someone says: I'll give you $10,- if you vote for me. Afterwards, you provide them with your random number, and you can prove you "earned" the $10. That's why someone suggested: "No cameras".

    18. Re:Vote Verification by Internet by Stormy+Dragon · · Score: 1

      Most people are morons. You think they're going to be able to handle having to remember the difference between their fake votes and their real votes without getting hopelessly confused?

    19. Re:Vote Verification by Internet by bugs2squash · · Score: 1

      1) Maybe they shouldn't sell their vote if they are that stupid (then-again, maybe they should !)

      2) The very existence of this scheme makes the vote unsellable

      3) They don't have to print the dupe receipts, they don't even have to print a real receipt unless they want one.

      --
      Nullius in verba
    20. Re:Vote Verification by Internet by Stormy+Dragon · · Score: 1

      I meant more we'll end up with thousands of Jewish grandmothers in FL real voting for Buchanan and fake voting for Gore thinking they're doing the opposite.

  43. Re:Malfunction bigger threat than Hacking. Seal it by CastrTroy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Even worse is having too many machines being broken, or not enough machines to begin with, so voters have to wait hours in line, and many just end up leaving after deciding it's not worth it.

    --

    Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
  44. Backup mechanisms by naoursla · · Score: 1

    You need a way to verify that the electronic results have not been changed. The only solution I have been able to come up with is to generate a paper trail. When a citizen votes electronically, he should be shown a paper receipt that he verifies has his choices on it. That paper receipt is stored.

    At the end, your number of paper receipts should be the same as the number of electronic voters. You can sample from the paper receipts to make sure the distribution of votes in the paper receipts is the same as the electronic receipts.

    You still get the benefits of electronic voting but retain the ability to reduce the ability to tamper by making electronic tampering detectable.

    This does nothing to prevent the receipts from being stolen/miscounted, but at least we are back to century-old techniques for voting fraud against which our century-old methods of security are reasonably valid.

    I also don't know what happens if tampering is discovered after the fact.

  45. Cross reference by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It is my understanding that you can get results in different formats from the machine and from the central repository (ie. the main computer at election HQ). This might be total number who voted, the totals cast for each item on the ballot, and the total for each candidate. I have heard that on some machines, it is blatantly obvious that these don't add up. Also, if you have time, calculate the results a second time and make sure they match exactly.

    Finally, if you can get the results from the central computer at your election HQ, make sure they match what you sent in. I have heard that it could be possible to tamper with the results in transition or even the main system.

  46. Not much by Spazmania · · Score: 3, Insightful

    As a precinct chair, there is very little you can do, besides asking folks to report any suspicious behavior on the machine's part (displaying a selection other than what they selected, for example).

    The real fraud, if it happens at all, happens quietly behind the scenes. The machine behaves exactly as it is supposed to but adds a number to the wrong tally. You can't check it later because there is no permanent record of what the voter saw on the screen before pressing "vote." The sole record is of that machine's final tally at the end of the day.

    As others have said, the solution is: paper. Whatever they select on the screen, you ask the voter to print it out and read the paper. Then you stuff the paper in a locked box. You count the machine's tally (it's more cost-effective) but you now have a permanent record verified by the individual voters which you can audit in order to verify that the machine did as it claimed. Someone hacks the machine? No problem: just count the papers.

    --
    Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
    1. Re:Not much by Migraineman · · Score: 1

      The local voting supervisors are there to make sure the meatspace portion of the voting process works withing bounds - confirmation of registered voters, one vote per person, no proxy voting, anonymity of voters (i.e. his boss isn't looking over his shoulder,) etc.

      In modern society, the voting fraud is electronic and can be perpetrated from the comfort of your local coffee shop. The local machines will all work properly. All the local checks and balances will total properly. The vote totals will be sent back to the regional aggregation centers, and that's where the fraud will happen. The classic Man in the Middle will intercept the totals, or the aggregation center will have back-door code installed by someone who hasn't worked there for years. Since there's a disconnect between vote submission and aggregation, that presents a fundamental weak point just asking to be exploited. The confirmation mechanism uses the same flawed aggregation path, so it is subject to the same exploitation.

      Make the voters feel comfortable. Give them an enjoyable experience. Make them feel like their vote counts. The rest is out of your hands.

  47. Open a window by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Does your voting system use any type of wireless connection to receive data from the polling devices? If so, you're better off monitoring the parking lot than the voting booths.

  48. A Self-Evident Truth by Whuffo · · Score: 1
    The stated facts - a professional politician watching over the voting doesn't know how to tell if any fraud is happening - tell the whole tale.

    The real issue is that the majority of electronic voting machines have been designed to be as unverifiable as possible. No paper trail, no way to verify the operating system or recorded vote counts. These machines have been cracked in the past and it's virtually certain to happen again - and the people operating the polls won't know what happened unless they're the ones perpetrating the fraud.

    Something else that I find illuminating: the election judge asking this question is a Republican. Curious, don't you think?

  49. Keep with your domain of inspection / control by north.coaster · · Score: 1

    Focus on things that are within your domain of inspection / control. For example, something is wrong if the total number of votes is greater than the total number of people who voted.

    The questions that voters ask you may also be a tip off that there is a problem. Has a machine done something unexpected? Are the machines behaving in a consistent way for all voters? Does one machine seem to be faster than another?

  50. Advise everyone to use a provisional, paper ballot by rthille · · Score: 1


    The machines can't be trusted. Period.

    Advise everyone to vote on a paper ballot. If they can't, they should impeach their registrar of voters.

    --
    Awesome furniture, accessories and cabinetry in Santa Rosa, CA: http://humanity-home.com/
  51. Inconceivable, eh? by argent · · Score: 1

    I can't imagine that the person honestly doesn't know any shenanigans would take place long before the machines were on public display.

    Your imagination is a pretty poor thing. You can not conceive of someone having heard about a problem and immediately asking other people instead of doing their own research? You've never even see that happen on Slashdot? Damn.

    1. Re:Inconceivable, eh? by hyades1 · · Score: 1

      No, I can't imagine anyone with more than a Grade 3 education whose fund of general knowledge wouldn't encompass something so basic.

      As for my imagination...I'd bet serious coin it's better than yours.

      --
      I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
    2. Re:Inconceivable, eh? by argent · · Score: 1
      No, I can't imagine anyone with more than a Grade 3 education whose fund of general knowledge wouldn't encompass something so basic.

      Voice 1: "Do you know how to program?"
      Voice 2: "Well, I'm literate if that's what you mean."

      -- Robert Anton Wilson's idea of the world of the '90s seen from the '70s


      It's a pretty poor imagination that only works one way, as the White Queen might say.
    3. Re:Inconceivable, eh? by hyades1 · · Score: 1

      The fnords may disagree.

      --
      I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
    4. Re:Inconceivable, eh? by argent · · Score: 1

      Wilson obviously made that all up. The real word is "" and the hypnosis machine looks nothing like the one he described.

  52. Given the mood of the country... by avecfrites · · Score: 1

    Given the mood of the country, any race in which a Republican wins should be considered suspect.

  53. Bubblewrap ... by taniwha · · Score: 2, Funny

    carefully place bubblewrap under each machine - listen for the popping if anyone starts manhandling them

    1. Re:Bubblewrap ... by OldManAndTheC++ · · Score: 1

      or better yet, put a motion sensor on the machine, and if it is triggered have the machine say in a loud voice "HEY EVERYBODY! I'M WATCHING PORN OVER HERE!"

      --
      Soylent Green is peoplicious!
  54. Use paper by spaceyhackerlady · · Score: 1

    E-voting is a priori suspicious.

    ...laura

  55. You're the weak link. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As election judge, you're actually the most likely person to tamper with the machine. Tampering with a tamper resistant machine in front of an audience in pretty much impossible. As election judge you're the one bringing it to your home a couple days before and bringing it back to the counting center afterwards so you're the one on the hook.

  56. If you see this guy: by jbeaupre · · Score: 1

    If you see any of these guys, you might want to be suspicious:

    McCain (not a TX resident)
    Obama (not a TX resident either)
    Clinton (not a TX resident, pissed at both of above)
    Ahmadinejad, Casto (either), Chavez, etc (not TX residents, but like to joke around with the US)
    and of course anyone who looks like this:
    http://www.april.org/association/documents/alan-cox-sticker-drm.jpg

    --
    The world is made by those who show up for the job.
  57. Doesn't a paper trail enable coercion? by stankulp · · Score: 1

    The problem I see with a paper trail is that, for instance, union reps or employers could demand the voting receipts of their members/employees to confirm that they voted correctly.

    Isn't this a possibility?

    --
    We must be alert to the danger that public policy could become captive to a scientific-technological elite. - Eisenhower
    1. Re:Doesn't a paper trail enable coercion? by Sancho · · Score: 1

      The most common suggestion for a paper trail is that the paper ballot:
      a) Wouldn't have identifying information and
      b) Wouldn't be kept by the voter (it would be deposited into a box at the voting facility and used if a recount is needed.)

    2. Re:Doesn't a paper trail enable coercion? by TrinSF · · Score: 1

      We just provide two different things. The voter gets a voting receipt, and separately, there's a paper trail. The voting receipt (which is the unique time-stamped code to access the voting machine) is a piece of paper the voter can take home, to work, etc. The paper trail is visible and approved by the voter, but remains locked, sealed, and does not leave the voting location.

    3. Re:Doesn't a paper trail enable coercion? by FnordX · · Score: 1

      Actually, no. The person's name is NEVER recorded on the ballot. The only thing that the voting machine cares about is which choice you're picking. The verification of the voter is done by the monitors there at the voting station.

      The way it worked in my state is that once one of the nice bluehairs verified that you were, indeed, on the rolls for their precinct, they gave you a card with an embedded chip which would plug into the voting station. These cards were prepared ahead of time and had to be reset after each vote, so there was no way to place any of your information on them. You plugged that card into the voting machine, voted, and the machine thanked you, and you took the card back to the bluehairs.

      The thing it lacked, however, was the verifiable paper trail. It was the only thing missing from the equation.

      --
      ____________________
      Clouds in the Sky,
      Water in a bottle
    4. Re:Doesn't a paper trail enable coercion? by Tuoqui · · Score: 1

      Why even give a 'voting receipt'... Part of being in a democracy means being able to *NOT* vote if that is what you wish. Now you've just opened up another lane for coercion. 'Hey did you vote? let me see your receipt!'

      Also lets not forget that these votes are being stored in databases with timestamps at least in some locations... someone with sufficient authority could potentially link the voter registry (the people who come in and vote) with the timestamp on the machine and get who voted what.

      I'm a technology enthusiast and even I think paper is better.

      --
      09F911029D74E35BD84156C5635688C0
      +2 Troll is Slashdot's way of saying groupthink is confused
    5. Re:Doesn't a paper trail enable coercion? by TrinSF · · Score: 1

      Because it's part of accountability for the voter's benefit -- not the voter's employer. The receipt shows the voter a unique identifier for their vote. With paper ballots, each ballot has a unique number, and when a voter voted that ballot, they got a tear off receipt showing that particular ballot number. That allows that voter to be able to ask "Was ballot X counted?" So your argument that this could be used against the voter was just as true with paper ballots.

      In our county, the voter roster is not in order of time of voting -- it's in alphabetical order. It's impossible to tell from the roster or any other documentation available to us *when* a particular voter voted. We can tell that ballot X was cast at this or that time, and the voter walks away with proof for themselves that they voted ballot X. But there is no way to link ballot X -- be it electronic or paper -- to the name of a voter in the roster. Thus, every ballot is counted, every ballot is unique, the voter has proof of their unique ballot, but we have no way to link the voter to that ballot.

    6. Re:Doesn't a paper trail enable coercion? by sbeckstead · · Score: 0

      Wow, a whole new level of paranoia. No the Unions can't demand that yet. I don't think they will. They just don't have the power they used to have.

  58. The only reason that I know of ... by khasim · · Score: 1

    Is to make it easier for the voter to SEE how s/he has voted.

    Instead of a punched hole or whatever on a card, you SHOULD have the name of the person you selected printed in NICE BIG LETTERS on the ballot. And ONLY the name of the person you selected. No confusion.

    Other than that, the old style paper ballots work best.

  59. Good sources of Info. by Irvu · · Score: 4, Informative

    I'm assuming that you have the Hart InterCivic system as stated by The Verifier. In that event, as other authiors have noted you may have no hope of detecting truly electrionic tampering. However you may spot some things. The links below also apply to Diebold and ES&S systems as well.

    I would be sure, to tell all voters to read the confirmation screen carefully. Many other locations have reported instances of vote switching where voters, once they reach the closing screen, see a different outcome than they pushed. Evidence from a Rice University study indicates that less than 30% of people even read this screen but those that do have reported nontrivial numbers of flipped votes.

    Secondly I would educate yourself about the machines. Ohio's Everest study, particularly chapter 14 contains many scary things about the machines. Some you can look for, many you cannot.

    You will also find information from the California study notably the red-team reviews of the hart system.

    Voters Unite is also a source of some good info As does Pollworkers.us which is a useful site for those working the polls.

  60. When I've run and observed polling stations ... by Tim+Ward · · Score: 1

    ... in traditionally democratic parts of the world like Kosovo and Ukraine ... ... training has been provided. Doesn't the USA run to that then?

  61. Simple solutions are often the best by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Count the number of people who come into each facility. After that, just have each terminal report how many it votes it took. Just add them together. If the numbers are significantly skewed--then there's been a problem, and you'd probably have a re-vote.

  62. no trail, no dice by davek · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The only way I personally will trust an electronic voting machine is if it prints out my vote on pain paper and asks for my approval before the vote is dropped in the box. This is obviously not how any of these machines are designed, so unfortunately we can trust none of them.

    In the absence of the ideal, the only thing that somewhat ensures a proper vote tally is a paper trail. Every vote is printed directly on some physical medium when it is cast.

    But even this is sadly not the case in many districts. Without the paper trail, you have NO guarantee that the election means anything at all. You can demand open source for the software on the machine; you can demand to see statistics before, during, and after the election; you can demand a box for yourself to see if you personally can figure out how to hack it; but all those acts are moot, if you don't have the paper trail to begin with.

    -dave

    --
    6th Street Radio @ddombrowsky
    1. Re:no trail, no dice by Chapium · · Score: 1

      One thing I never understand about the papertrail argument when it comes to E-Voting. How does a machine printing out your vote on a slip of paper indicate that that is what was recorded? The only feasible way I can see this working in an anonymous system is by always tallying the paper votes. However, if thats the case why have the electronic version anyways?

  63. Bullshit. by khasim · · Score: 1

    Actually, that's not true. It would have been pathetically easy to deposit extra votes in the ballot box without anyone noticing.
    No, it is not. Not without having the cooperation of all the people who are supposedly watching the ballot box for that specific reason.

    Simply have the voter hand his/her ballot to the Republican watching the box who then hands it to the Democrat watching the box who then hands it to the 3rd party representative watching the box who then deposits it in the box in front of the voter and the other two representatives.

    The entire process would take 3 seconds per voter per box and ensure that each voter only submitted a single ballot.

    Now, solving the problem of whether that person votes at multiple locations or under multiple names is a different issue. But one that can also be solved fairly easily.

    It is fallacious to think we can have a foolproof voting system.
    No one is saying that because no one wants to bet against the stupidity of some of the fools out there.

    But that doesn't matter as long as the margin between the candidates (authentic votes only) is larger than the number of votes cast by the "fools".

    And THAT is achievable.

    If a paper trail is added, suddenly they're tracking who votes for whom.
    No they aren't. The paper trail is to validate the votes the machine counts. NOT to track the voter.

    We just have to trust that most poll workers are civically responsible, and are doing their best to mitigate fraud.
    Fuck that. The poll workers are the ones most likely to commit fraud. NEVER trust them. Have your people watch them at every step.

    Anyone who doesn't think that is the case in his precinct is more than welcome to step away from his busy day of posting on Slashdot and volunteer to work the polls.
    And many of us WILL be volunteering to do just that.
  64. black people by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    To prevent voter fraud, tell the blacks their names aren't on the rolls. They probably have felony convictions and it would be fraud for them to vote.

  65. Watch out for the small boy... by tikram · · Score: 1

    named Micah, touching and caressing the voting machine, while empathically closing his eyes...

  66. What to look for by robo_mojo · · Score: 1

    What activities should I look for?
    The absence of paper ballots.
  67. Not that hard by slapout · · Score: 1

    Where I vote, we connect a line (kinda like a scantron) then we stick the ballot in the machine and the machine counts it. Voting is done on paper and counted by a machine. You end up with a paper trail and an electronic count. You can always go back and count the paper ballots.

    --
    Coder's Stone: The programming language quick ref for iPad
  68. OpenSource E-Voting machine w/ SmartCards by harningt · · Score: 1

    This is a great reason to bring in SmartCards + anonymizing Digital Signatures into the realm (IIRR Belgium has an interesting voting scheme around this).

    Paper trails are a bunch of BS if you ask me. Why would anyone trust paper more than cryptography?

    You need to be able to have multiple backends in different locations simultaneously being posted vote result envelopes.. as well as the individual machines containing their own logs.
    At the end of the day you'll have instant voter readout after you have the various machines correlate votes and make sure no duplicates/inconsistencies are made by the entitys. ... this is the way to do it without the waiting involved with paper-based ballots.

    Now.. OpenSource is a strong req end-to-end on the machines so that no invisible bogusity can be implanted. Why would you trust a black box to count your votes?

  69. a system is only as good as its people by circletimessquare · · Score: 1

    fortunately for the people of your texas precinct, you are obviously a man of integrity, to even ask this question so publicly

    the surest way to protect from any sort of tampering is more people like you

    unfortunately, what makes electornic voting so insidious is it does a few things:

    1. order of magnitude more attack vectors. sure with paper ballots you can throw a truckload out, manufacture duplicates, etc. but for every way you can hack paper voting, there 10 more ways to hack mechanical voting, and 100 more ways to hack electronic voting

    2. force magnification. how messy is it to create the conspiracy of many people to mess with a paper voting system? how complicated is the conspiracy? how long does it take? meanwhile, one well placed hacker can manipulate the voting for an entire county, state, or country, in a matter of seconds

    2. untraceability. paper ballots are messy. they leave finger prints, it is slow to change them, you have to hide or burn them, etc.. electronic voting meanwhile: one person with the right knowledge and access can, in a few seconds of time, create entirely false audit trails, statistically sound voting variations, etc. such that you don't even know if you can depend upon the integrity of the votes

    3. lack of transparency. the legitmacy of any government depends upon trust. even the appearance of not knowing what is going on behind the scenes is enough to create rumbles in the populace, feelings of helplessness and being disconnected from their government. a paper ballot you can touch, feel, trust. its a piece of paper. it goes in a box. trust. transparancy. governmental legitimacy. electronic voting is black box. your vote goes in one end... something happens. i can't see it, i can't touch it, i don't know what is going on... out the other end comes sausage

    it is not entirely wrong to say that the greatest threat to democracy in the world today is not religious fanatacism, is not authoritarian regimes... it is electronic voting

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
  70. Watch it by Sloppy · · Score: 1

    Make sure the machine has been guarded from a point where the manufacturer no longer takes responsibility (*), until after it has been counted.

    This won't prevent all fraud, but it will make it so that any fraud is the manufacturer's fault, rather than your own. Felten loves to take photographs of unguarded (i.e. easily compromisable) machines on his blog.

    (*) Yeah, it's a bit naive to think there's any point where the manufacturer does take responsibility, but .. well .. just pretend there is. Fake it with this rule of thumb: as soon as the machine arrives, somebody has to watch it until the votes are counted, to make sure no one has changed the software, for example.

    --
    As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
  71. Effective solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There are three parts. First, a paper trail. For the best security level here, print a copy of the vote, along with some ID number for the voter (but no further personally identifiable information), at the machine for the voter to review. Print another copy at your desk with the ID number and voter's information, but nothing about their vote, at your desk. They must stop and sign it (modify as needed for disabilities) on their way out to verify that they checked their vote.

    Second, a regularly updated vote count. This will have the total number of votes cast, and you can manually compare that to the number of people who have voted. Update this something like every 5 minutes. Additionally, send the data to a central, secure server for the state. This server keeps each data update separate, making sure there are no discrepancies in each update (no negatives, totals add up, etc.). This also has the benefit of eliminating the stupid delay for vote counting. Once the polls have all closed, the total is IMMEDIATELY known.

    Third, coordinate with exit pollsters to check the totals regularly, say every 15-30 minutes. This isn't a 100% method by any means, especially since people could lie about their vote if they so desired. But if any major discrepancies start showing (polls show 75% for one candidate, totals are 55%), review the paper trail immediately. Have some "nonpartisan" state officials present who can review the paper trail while you continue to man the desk.

    Yes, this requires significant change on many levels. And it will give a better, faster voting system. Present the idea to your Secretary of State and see where it goes.

  72. Here's how! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/joshillustrates/414916629/sizes/l/

    That's what you wanted, right?

    aka: Ban screw drivers and flash drives.

  73. Austin Parallel Testing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    The new kind of voter fraud that is introduced by electronic voting machines is one where the software pre-installed is corrupt. Certainly, people can try to hack the machine at the voting booth, but that can be spotted more easily and has less overall impact. Corrupt software, however, has the potential to steal many more votes. The probability of corrupt software increases when the software is proprietary, but that's all there is right now (nudge to visionaries: develop open-source voting machine with paper trail, sell machines to counties like this one, Profit!).

    In Travis County, TX (where I live) they have a system in place that uses "parallel testing." This is where they randomly select a machine at each precinct at the start of election day and vote a randomly selected number of times throughout the day to simulate people voting. They keep track of how they voted and verify that was what was recorded correctly at the end of the day. Not foolproof, but pretty smart and a good safeguard.

    Here's the report (very cheesy):
    http://www.co.travis.tx.us/county_clerk/election/pdfs/NIST_paper_051005.pdf

  74. You can spot e-Vote tampering... by j_kenpo · · Score: 1

    when the dead rise from the grave and vote Republican.

  75. All your votes by Effector_Ludorum · · Score: 1

    If your machines show "All your votes are belong to us" then you've got a problem.

  76. Consult an expert by kilpatjr · · Score: 2, Informative

    Voting security research is happening in Houston at Rice. Get in contact with Dan Wallach in the Computer Science department.

  77. Post Results! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    Here in NM, the law says that after the polls close, we (poll workers) must POST A COPY of the paper trail outside the precinct so voters can see within their district how many votes each candidate got in each race.

    This doesn't prevent the kind of tampering that happens at the central tabulator, as in Ohio in 2004, but it does give us all (voters) the opportunity to have a greater chance of seeing shinnanigans early so we can know when it is obvious that we need to jump up and down about something.

  78. Re:Someone please... by WinPimp2K · · Score: 5, Informative

    troll, funny, does not matter.

    I live in Harris Co. and the machines are pretty horrendous. They look pretty, but there is no form of verification whatsoever. As for the asshats who say that we have secure electronic systems for securities trading, credit card systems and bank ATMs... well just remember that not one of those systems is anonymous.

    As to detecting "fradulent activity" as an election judge, well if you hear somone operating a power screwdriver or see small parts being dropped on the floor, well that is about as good as you can get on detecting tampering with those damnable machines. In other words, you are not going to detect any fraud that involves hacking the machines. You are limited to what you can do to prevent "old fashioned" fraud - ie the vote early and often crowd. Since there are no ballot boxes you don't have to worry about them being tampered with :)

    Now if you could demand photo ID (and anyone presenting those cards from the Mexican consulate should be immediately deported) and compare that against your local voter rolls that would be nice. It would also be nice if you had some way to update your voter rolls by checking against death certificates issued in the last year.

    Using a machine as an interface would be fine, just let it print a darn ballot that the voter can verify.

    --

    You either believe in rational thought or you don't
  79. Sorry Precinct Election Judge by SengirV · · Score: 2, Insightful

    But you will NEVER be able to convince the bleeding hearts that there was not cheating, as long as a Republican wins. It's in their nature. It's OK for Daley to cheat in elections in Chicago, it's OK to vandalize buses set to get GOP voters out to the polls, etc...

    Remember, it's not fascism when they do it.

    --

    Prof. Farnsworth - "Oh a lesson in not changing history from Mr I'm-My-Own-Grandpa!"

  80. sure ... if you're a bonehead by fool4jesus · · Score: 1

    Something else that I find illuminating: the election judge asking this question is a Republican. Curious, don't you think? I sure am glad I didn't ask an honest question on here and expect people to actually give honest answers rather than pathetically questioning my motives. And you're right, I think the fact that he self-stated he was a Republican is highly curious. Imagine how easy it would have been for him to lie and say he was a Democrat, or to have given a false location, or just to have made up a false login to ask the question to get around your eagle eyes! How silly he was - he fell right into your trap.
  81. You don't stop it on Election Day by thesaurus · · Score: 1

    Most of problems with electronic voting are structural and institutional, and thus not something that you can easily fix on site. They say only a fool tries to rig an election on Election Day; the same applied to preventing fraud. Bring this issue up within the party apparatus and within local and state government. Talk to other election judges about this. Enough conversation and concern within the political class may prove more effective than the warnings of experts. Also, incase nobody else has said this, thank you for taking this issue seriously! Your commitment to public integrity is to be commended.

  82. 2 words, tamper tape by Spyder · · Score: 1

    At this stage you need to put tamper tape over all USB/SD/PC card/floppy slots AND regularly check them for tampering. Many states that use e-voting systems mandate the use of tamper tape per the Maryland guidance, but fall down on checking it. Poll judges should check the tamper tape every 2 hours at a minimum, and decommission any machine that shows any evidence of tampering.

    --
    Spyder
    1. Re:2 words, tamper tape by sbeckstead · · Score: 0

      At this stage you need to put tamper tape over all USB/SD/PC card/floppy slots AND regularly check them for tampering. Many states that use e-voting systems mandate the use of tamper tape per the Maryland guidance, but fall down on checking it. Poll judges should check the tamper tape every 2 hours at a minimum, and decommission any machine that shows any evidence of tampering. This of course removes all machines from service since by their existence we have evidence of tampering. There is one machine I know that uses SD cards which can be preloaded with negative votes. No evidence of tampering during the election and all your counts are perfect. No way to detect without effective paper trails and redundant counting.
  83. Chain of custody by dave562 · · Score: 1

    If there is tampering it won't take place during the voting and be done by a voter. It will most likely be a technican who "needs" to change out a faulty card. Or it will be an individual who needs to load "special" software to tabulate the votes, or something silly like that.

  84. How to Spot Vote Tampering: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    See if ISO is involved.

    - (BOOL)isVoteCountTampered:(long)votes countedBy:(NSString *)entity {
      if([entity isEqualToString:@"ISO"]){
        return TRUE;
      } else {
        return (FALSE || ![self confirmCount:votes]);
      }
    }

  85. Exit polls are not valid. They are insidious by Shivetya · · Score: 1

    Intimidation is one reason. Another is embarrassment.

    With this upcoming election with the likely hood of a black candidate then it becomes a little of both. Many will reply with what they think the questioner wants. This will happen regardless if the person being asked is black, white, brown, red, green, or blue. Besides, why should they tell anyone. Its their right to cast their vote in secret. Let alone the fact you will have people who purposely give the wrong answer just to jack the results.

    This is what makes secret voting so damn important. People should not modify their votes because they are uncomfortable or intimidated.

    This is as important, if not more important, than fraud because its the worst kind of fraud.

    There are members of Congress looking to take away this freedom from those whose workplaces are deciding whether to unionize or not. The rule is that to get the vote to take place a majority of cards must be returned. This happens a lot because most people are not going to stand up to someone or worse a group and tell them "no I don't want a union". They fear reprisal or intimidation, let alone flat out harassment.

    Then when the vote is held each is cast in secret and suddenly the union loses. Do you really want to believe exit polls are any different? No, what they serve now is sensationalism in the press and the basis for conspiracy theories. They throw doubt onto a vote for people who refuse to accept they could lose. After all an election is the ultimate rejection for the loser.

    The idea solution. Electronic voting using pictures selected by the candidate and a paper card spit out printed with the name and picture on it. This card would be folded and inserted into a ballot box to be used if the election is contested. Record retention should be sufficient to protect the right of recount if probably cause can be show.

    We can't please everyone and we shouldn't try. Some people will simply make new lines in the sand.

    --
    * Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
  86. dual control by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I think there's not much you can do except ensure there's dual control over all machines (one dem and one rep) anytime a machine is in a non-voting mode (ie, setup, takedown, etc). During the actual voting process there's not much you can do but ensure the people are able to use the machines to the best of their abilities. I may be out of place, but I'm pretty sure most historical ballot tampering happens either before or after the polls are open -- during there's just too many witnesses.

    As an election judge, your best avenue is for fairness is in future elections -- it's really too late for 2008 to get decent e-voting machines. If your electoral officials did something stupid, like purchase machines from Diebold, then take them to task using whatever process you have available.

  87. Educate yourself about the entire process by TrinSF · · Score: 3, Informative

    I work as a elections inspector in California, which means that I'm in charge of a single precinct -- I'm basically the head pollworker, responsible for the accountability of the ballots and equipment from the time it's delivered to me until the time I turn it in immediately after the election. Because of that, it's important that I am fully aware of what's going on with our equipment and alert to the possibility of tampering. My best defense has been knowledge -- which is a double-edged sword. I know how our system works. I understand the reasoning for each step of our process. I've taken every possible class offered by our county and achieved the highest possible level of certified proficiency with the equipment. So, instead of wondering what could go wrong, I understand the risk areas. For example, our equipment now has unique coded seals for every unused input/output port, and I know to watch to ensure those stay intact.

    Ask "Why?" Ask to have equipment and processes explained to you. But at the same time, make sure that every moment of the day, you're acting beyond reproach. I hold my poll workers to very high standards, because every moment of every day, we're possibly under scrutiny, and it's important that there never be even the slightest incorrect impression that we're not being fully compliant to the rules and laws involved. I've actually had poll workers get angry and leave early because I was asking them to comply with the rules and they were unhappy being told, "No, you can't talk to your friend who is voting about politics" or "No, you can't imply you don't like a candidate by giving someone a funny look when they ask about a ballot option," or "No, you can't use your laptop/PDA/cellphone in our polling place".

    But I'm pretty freakin' idealistic about what I do. If I lived where I grew up, I'd be a poll worker in a place where these have been real problems for decades. Right now, I live and work as a poll worker in a part of the country that has not historically had problems with voter disenfranchisement. So my work may have less meaning, in some ways, but it's still important. (Sorry, I feel very strongly about what I do, and it's hard not to talk about that.)

  88. There is Election fraud and Voter Fraud... by PotatoHead · · Score: 4, Interesting

    You would do yourself and the voters a big favor by considering BOTH. They are different things.

    Voter Fraud is where a voter misrepresents some element of their vote cast. Maybe it's casting more than one vote, a vote in the wrong place, a vote without entitlement to vote, etc...

    The GOP seems focused on the latter, BTW. It's a touchy subject for sure. IMHO, you are doing the right thing, and will have the high ground if you are focused on getting as many voters to vote as possible, not keeping as many voters from voting as possible.

    The key here is that Voter Fraud is some act on the part of the voter.

    Election Fraud is where the result of the election is being manupulated. That difference between preventing as many voters as possible, and promoting as many voters as possible, is one that can be election fraud, as well as being voter fraud. One example that serves to demonstrate election fraud would be to publish information that would disqualify voters that would not otherwise be disqualified. If this is done in a discriminatory fashion, there is a solid case for it potentially being voter fraud. Could be ignorance too, and that's gonna be one for the courts for sure!

    Another case of election fraud would be mis-programmed voting machines, or deliberate under / over allocation of them to impact the numbers of votes and the accuracy of the votes. (and I'm getting to the topic of accuracy in a moment) We saw some of this in Ohio big time in 2004, BTW.

    Still another would be manipulating the record of the vote. This could be done to impact or prevent a recount, for example. That's totally election fraud, not voter fraud. Maybe every voter did the right thing, but the election is still hosed. That's one way to tell the difference right there.

    Now, can you trust the damn things?

    No. Absolutely not. I don't care if they have a paper printer fitted or not, and here is why:

    When you make a mark on media, as the voter, the chain of trust between your intent and the record of the vote is complete! You know what who you want to vote for, and you can directly see the record of the vote cast. This record does not require any enabling technology to be observed and verified as being true to the intent and therefore the "right" vote cast.

    When you vote with electrons, this chain of trust is broken! Really, the voter knows who they want to vote for and does something to tell the machine their intent. So far, so good. Now, here's the kicker and why we should NEVER, EVER use the machines.

    What gets recorded is what the machine thinks the voter intent is! Think this part through. Let's say we walk up to the machine and cast a vote for Bob. We push the Bob button, get visual feed back, and a printed piece of paper that shows that the vote was for Bob. Feeling good right?

    What if the electronic record of the vote is for Jane? How can we know? We can't actually see the electrons now can we? The machine can easily show us a Bob vote and contain a Jane vote in the record used for the tally and there is absolutely no way we can verify that didn't happen, short of direct observation and a real time tally, keyed to each vote. (and that's just stupid)

    Here's another very simple way to look at it. Say I am the voting machine and I'm keeping a mental record of votes cast so that I can contribute them to the final tally. You vote Bob, and I count one for Bob. Then, I change that to Jane, after you have verified it. What evidence is there for that vote having ever been Bob? There is none. Electrons can just change, where paper will show some evidence of having been changed. The physical media is rendered less than perfect in the process of counting votes. Electronic storage devices don't exhibit this same quality on a directly observable human scale.

    Put simply, it's a vote by proxy and therefore cannot be trusted.

    Some will say the paper can check the electronic results. I would agree, but invoking the check i

    1. Re:There is Election fraud and Voter Fraud... by chris.evans · · Score: 1

      E-voting systems need to be open-sourced audited and certified (and accessible for voter scrutiny) prior being used for voting else the vote cannot be really trusted. But then again, how many election officals can read and understand C++ or assembler/microcode?

  89. Don't have an affiliation by j-min · · Score: 0

    If you think it would be an issue of "someone [saying] the Republicans are trying to keep people from voting!", then don't have a specific party affiliation.

    IMO, those running and judging the polling place shouldn't be denoted by affiliation with a party, to keep the polling place as free of bias as possible.

    Just my (impractical and probably impossible with how the system is setup) two cents.

  90. no one mentioned SOS or county clerk's offices by fl!ptop · · Score: 1

    in some parts of the u.s. they're responsible for printing the (absentee) ballots and preparing the e-voting machines. sometimes they get it wrong. better not wait until the last minute to "check" things, it might be too late.

    --
    When you recognize love in another and realize how precious it is, everything else seems so insignificant.
  91. Tamper evident tape by NimbleSquirrel · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Firstly, I'm going to assume that you have no control over the initial condition of those voting machines, and whether or not those machines generate a paper trail. Of course one would hope that the machines are checked by an independant authority, and that they generate a verifiable paper trail. This is more about protecting the machines while under your watch.

    If someone is determined to hack a voting machine, there will be little you can do to stop it. The key is being able to detect that some change was made. I doubt you'd have the kind of access or knowledge to detect software changes, but since nearly all voting machine hacks require access to the hardware you will be able to do something. Use tamper evident tape to seal the case, cover keyholes and block any open ports. The important part to this is to have multiple witnesses around when you apply the tape, and when you verify the tape is still there at the end of the day. Get them to sign an affadavit if you can. If a machine (or machines) have been tampered with under your watch, then you can alert the appropriate authorities.

    1. Re:Tamper evident tape by TrinSF · · Score: 1

      Mmm, I love those tamper evident seals. Not only do I have to track and verify something like 25 of them, but I have to keep logs of them, mark down the numbers, have them double checked and signed, and nothing gets sealed or unsealed without witnesses present. These days, a big part of what I do as a pollworker involves locks and seals. We have an entire certification class in just that subject.

  92. Use profiling by mollog · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Use profiling for starters. Look for white males between the ages of 18 and 60, then watch their behavior. I guess a real pro won't get nervous, but the amateurs will look nervous. If they get to vote behind a curtain, well, you're out of luck. Just check the seals before and after. Also, make sure the chain of custody is verified. Enlist the help of your Democratic counterpart.

    --
    Best regards.
    1. Re:Use profiling by ghstomahawks · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Yes, try to intimidate younger people from voting. As if the majority of the younger generations didn't have enough reasons to dislike republican politics anyway ...

  93. Moot concern... people in Harris County.. or Houst by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Are too stupid for voting fraud that involves computer hacking... In the primaries (early voting and regular voting) over 1000 people VOTED TWICE ( http://blogs.chron.com/houstonpolitics/2008/03/kaufman_1100_people_voted_twic.html ) The DA's office is trying not to prosecute them... My guess... the morons did not know that when you vote in the early primary, you should not vote again in the second primary...

    Some of these concerns addressed are not so important... simply because Harris county is run by and consists of the largest amalgam of morons in the US.

  94. I'm sorry by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When did they diagnose you being a republican?

  95. It's more about *you* than the voters... by jemenake · · Score: 1

    First off, I'm not an expert. And also, I'll assume that you're not asking because you really want to find out what methods watchdogs would use to try to detect *you* messing with the votes so that you know how to properly cover your tracks.

    But I have to say that the problem with e-voting (in my eyes, anyway) is that it's easier for an "inside" person (that means *you*) to tamper with the votes. To that end, at a minimum, I would feel that, even if a voter asks you for help, you shouldn't approach a voting machine without being accompanied by your Democratic counterpart (or some other official who's political interests are contrary to yours). Whenever possible, any citizen who cares (don't worry, I think there are only 4 in the nation) should be able to watch anything you do (short of approaching a machine at the behest of a voter).

    As far as guarding against individual voters messing with stuff, that's particular to the voting machines you use in your precinct. If there's some software flaw that would let a voter get into an "admin" screen or something... then you're screwed, because the only way to detect it would probably be to *see* the screen, which I doubt you're allowed to do. Otherwise, there'd need to be a hardware intrusion, so you'd have to figure out the ways that someone could open the voting terminal (or somehow gain access to the data card or electronics) and do what you can to ensure that, were someone to try it, it would require very conspicuous behavior.

    On a side note, one of the requirements of any secure voting system is that the public be aware of what chicanery to look for. For example, PunchScan looks like a very compelling system which allows voters to ensure that their vote made it into the finally tally unmodifies but *without* anyone being able to find out who they voted for afterward. However, the system can be defeated unless the public knows what (seemingly innocuous) anomalies should set off the alarm bells.

  96. Here's a manual for election observation... by JimMarch(equalccw) · · Score: 2, Interesting

    http://arizona.typepad.com/blog/files/Stonewall_handout.pdf

    This was written for the Stonewall Democrats. It includes boilerplate public records text at the end, some examples of dirty stuff seen in public records, examples of screwed-up facilities (with pictures) and more.

    This is an example of an after-action report written along these principles:

    http://www.bbvdocs.org/sequoia/Maricopa-County-Elections-Report.pdf

    I'm doing another right now for Monterey County California for the election of June 3rd '08. Found all sorts of crazy stuff. That should be posted at http://blackboxvoting.org/ in a day or two.

    Jim March
    Member of the board of directors
    Blackboxvoting.org

  97. Re:Malfunction bigger threat than Hacking. Seal it by woboyle · · Score: 1

    Also, make sure that there are full audits of random machines after the election to try and catch any localized tampering with the electronic results. If any is found, then all machines must be audited (verification of paper vs. electronic results). This can be costly, both from the time and expense perspectives, but necessary to ensure a fair, and impartial vote.

    --
    Sometimes, real fast is almost as good as real-time.
  98. Paper = Corruption Free? by qazwart · · Score: 3, Insightful

    We get so hung up on paper ballots as if this would be a cure all for voting fraud. In the Northeast, paper ballots were eliminated in favor of mechanical voting machines in order to eliminate fraud.

    Yup, that's right. Back in the beginning of the last century, the biggest voting fraud was ballot box stuffing and ballot replacement. Read Carter's book "Turning Point: A Candidate, a State, and a Nation Come of Age" about his 1962 election for State Senate and see what type of fraud can occur with paper ballots.

    When New York and New Jersey went with the mechanical voting machines, they instituted quite a few procedures to help eliminate fraud. The polling chief has a book containing all registered voters with their signatures. When a voter comes to vote, they sign that book, and the signatures are compared. Once the polling chief is satisfied that the person is a registered voter, they have the person sign a voting ticket in the ticket book. Once the ticket is signed, it is given to the person in charge of the voting booth. This person threads the ticket onto a string, and pulls a large lever to set the machine for voting. The voter enters the machine, pulls a lever to close the drapes, and this unlocks the voting switches. The voter can flip the switches for the people they want to vote for, and then pulls the lever to open the drapes. This registers the tallies and resets the voting switches.

    The procedure is overseen by representatives of everyone on the ballot. A voter cannot vote twice because the machine needs to be reset by the person in charge of the voting booth. Diseased voters no longer show up to vote since you now have signatures to match against. The levers are set by the county and the machine is sealed and cannot be reset without a master key. The mechanical machines and the procedures that went with them helped clean up the elections in the Northeast.

    The problem is that these mechanical systems (which could be programmed in a very limited way) have been replaced by general CPUs with some form of voting software that no one is 100% sure how it works. You could always see how the gears and levers turn, but you can't see electrons flowing through silicone. It isn't the lack of paper as much as the lack of assurance that no one replaced the software or the tallies on the memory card.

    What we must understand is that a secure voting system is more than just a paper ballot which can be stuffed by the dozen into a ballot box. It is a whole procedure of verifying the voter, the ballot, and that there is a one-to-one correspondence of voters to ballots.

    My suggestion is to take care of what you can. There is no way of knowing if the software on the machine hasn't been tampered with before it was brought into the polling station. But, verify that the memory card is sealed and cannot be tampered with. Verify that the counters are reset and are zeroed out before the voting starts. Put a system in place to make sure that voters can only vote once. Make sure that no one is hanging over the voter. Make sure the voters actually finished voting. Some will press the buttons for their candidates but forget to push the final "Vote" button. Make sure that the machine has been reset before each voter.

    When the vote is finished, tally up the various totals and make sure they are in agreement. The number of votes should match the number of voters. Track the number of voters who simply decide not to vote and count them in any total.

    More importantly, follow whatever procedures you have. Get a hold of them before election day and study them thoroughly. That's the biggest problem. The volunteers at the polls not knowing the voting procedure.

    Lots of luck. I use to be a Texas poll watcher when we had those idiotic punch card ballots. We would verify that each card has cleanly punched chads before handing them to the voter. We had to verify that each voter had only a single punch card and we also would quickly examine the punched ballot for dimpled or hanging chads before

  99. False evidence by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    The easiest way is low-tech and fast. Just make the machine look like it was tampered with. They generally have a custody seal that has to be broken to get it open; often just a sticker. Someone can cut that sticker in 2 seconds with a pen knife. Now every vote from that machine is in question. If you are a member of party X and you know your voting precinct is mostly party Y, you could do a lot of damage in that 2 seconds.

    Not much you'll be able to do about it.

  100. test? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How long do you have the voting machinees before election day? The easiest way to detect software-level fraud is to randomly select several machines (all if possible), enter fictional vote tallies of at least 100 votes, and print out the results. Ensure they match. If they do, happiness. If not, you have something to worry about. Don't forget to erase the fictional vote tallies before election day.

  101. Cry me a river. by khasim · · Score: 1

    I've been a poll inspector in Los Angeles county for at least three maybe four years now and I kind of resent being the one that you think most likely to commit fraud.
    You can resent all you want, but the facts are the facts. Deal with it.

    It's not really that easy to do ...
    I did not say it was an easy job to do.

    ... and the precincts are small enough that the poll workers themselves can't have a huge affect anyway.
    Individually they may not. But overall, they could.

    You speak without any knowledge of what you say and if you have never worked the polls I suggest you kindly shut the fuck up.
    If you don't like the facts then that is your problem.

    There are only so many people involved in the voting process. The people with the ballot boxes ARE the ones more likely to commit fraud. Whether that offends you or not, it is a fact.

    Preventing fraud means facing that fact. Not being offended by it.

    When the various sides keep watch on each other, basic human suspicion helps prevent fraud. No one wants their side to lose because the other side stuffed the ballot box or "lost" votes that would have gone to them.
  102. Are you willing to apply this rule ... by fool4jesus · · Score: 1

    to elections where Democrats are unpopular?

  103. Open Vote Count and Verification by djmoore · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I'm not an expert, but here's my take:

    When you cast your vote, you are given a printed, human-readable copy of your ballot with a unique random index number printed on it, assigned at the moment your vote is cast, which is not linked to the voter rolls.

    All the votes are available on a website as a spreadsheet, sorted by index number. Anyone can download the sheet for a given district, or for all precincts.

    So, you download the sheet for your precinct, find your index number, and verify the recorded votes against your paper copy of the ballot.

    You can also count the votes for each candidate, and see that your totals match the officially reported ones.

    If they're not already, make the voter registration rolls open public records. That means that anyone can make spot checks, verifying that there are no dead people on the rolls. This list can be sorted by address, so you can check that there are not bogus addresses, or 100 people living in a two-room apartment.

    The total number of voting records must be less than the total number of registered voters.

    So, any individual voter can verify that:
    1. His vote was recorded correctly.
    2. The totals are being reported correctly.
    3. Bogus votes haven't been inserted into the system.

    Although that last check is weak, if enough people do spot checks, widespread, systematic fraud will likely be spotted, increasing the risk.

    --
    In the wrong hands, sanity is a dangerous weapon.
    1. Re:Open Vote Count and Verification by dkleinsc · · Score: 1

      Any method by which a voter can verify his vote when he gets home necessarily allows vote buying and/or coerced votes (e.g. "if you want to continue working here, show me that you voted for Smith, not Jones").

      So far the most interesting idea along those lines that I've heard of is to have your job as a citizen is to vote, and verify that somebody else's vote was counted.

      --
      I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
  104. Voter Intimidation by Internet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That's when your boss tells you to give him your number with a vote for $candidate_X or you're fired.

    I like electronically generated, standardized paper ballots and standardized ballot counting machines. But if they're going to tamper with your vote, they'll tamper with that number, too.

    1. Re:Voter Intimidation by Internet by lusiphur69 · · Score: 1

      Then you sue said employer for wrongful dismissal and possibly hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars given the US tort system.

      C'mon - what a ridiculous argument to use against what seems to me a very good idea that does not compromise the secret ballot.

  105. See the novel titled RUNOFF by MrWagger · · Score: 1

    There's a novel called RUNOFF by Marc Coggins that describes a fictional election in San Francisco where the result is changed when the security on city's electronic voting system is defeated. It gives a pretty good (and entertaining) discussion of the various exploits that might be possible in the real world. The author apparently consulted with e-voting expert David Dill in the CS Dept. at Stanford.

  106. Watch for Republicans. by b4dc0d3r · · Score: 1

    If you don't see any, next in line is Democrats. Either one is a sure sign something suspicious is happening/happened/about to happen.

  107. Just barely better than no paper trail at all by mbessey · · Score: 2, Informative

    It's just great that California has instituted a requirement for a voter-verifiable paper trail for e-voting machines, but the fundamental problems still remain.

    The problem with these machines is that there's no guarantee that the ballot that the voter verified actually matches what gets recorded in the memory of the machine, and what eventually gets transmitted upstream.

    Yes, a manual recount based on the paper trail would catch massive vote fraud - but that's only going to happen if the results are obviously bogus.

    The results of the voting machine review that the CA Secretary of State performed are here:
    http://www.sos.ca.gov/elections/elections_vsr.htm

    Reading those reports is pretty scary. The state identified a bunch of weaknesses in the various systems, and imposed requirements on the vendors to plug the most egregious security holes. But there are literally DOZENS of operational requirements imposed to ensure that the voting is secure and that the privacy of voters is maintained.

  108. Re:Someone please... by hcmtnbiker · · Score: 5, Insightful

    As a large supporter of full disclosure I would have to disagree. The only way to fix potential holes is to bring them to light. There will always be people attempting to find the next big hole in security, making it public how you can work around something may have a short term effect of feeding "script kiddies" but in the end it's undeniable that it is beneficial to security at large.

    --
    If i had one dollar for every brain you dont have, i would have $1.
  109. Easy: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Everyone knows that the most effective way to fight voter fraud is with another form of fraud: voter suppression.

    All that's left to decide now is which form of electoral fraud will deliver the precinct to your favorite candidate.

    Have fun!

  110. Wrong forum? by IWannaBeAnAC · · Score: 1

    I wouldn't ask this question here, maybe you will get some good responses but you will also get a bunch of seemingly good (but on deeper thought, not so much) responses from more-or-less clueless people that don't actually have any experience at election security. I would try instead Ed Felten at http://www.freedom-to-tinker.com/, or even Bruce Schneier. Both these people are experts in the field, and both have discussed these issues extensively on their blogs.

  111. E-Voting machines bite by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Haven't you guys got it all backwards? Why make an E-Voting machine that can be hacked/cracked or whatever when the real problem it was trying to solve was that voters (using paper) were incompetent. Wouldn't a more secure (and fail safe system) be a digital 'verifier' machine. That is, the voters use paper as normal and then place it in the 'verifier' to check that their vote is actually valid (and also display it on the screen for the voter to check). The vote then still goes into the traditional box.

  112. Revert to paper ballots if it's such a problem by Bones3D_mac · · Score: 1

    If there's reason to believe your machines are being compromised, then just don't use them. Paper ballots have worked effectively for several decades and are far more difficult to compromise in large numbers without actually destroying them in the process. You can avoid other practices like box stuffing by using methods similar to that used in our currency to prevent counterfeiting.

    Sure, it may not be as convenient as a computer when it comes to counting the votes, but can we realistically afford to be cutting corners on something as important as voting?

    As long as paper ballots are out of the equation, people will always question the integrity of the voting system, so long as the votes being cast lack a physical presence that can be counted by anyone.

    --


    8==8 Bones 8==8
  113. Things to watch for by goombah99 · · Score: 5, Informative

    First your question holds the telescope at the wrong end. Tampering by voters is much less likely to occur because it is unlikely to change an election out come or occur in an undetectable manner. The people to watch are the election officials, with pre-a nd post voting access to the machines.

    That said what a voter can do depends on what machines you have in use. Lets consider the big three Diebold, Seqouia edge or ES&S ivotronic and no voter verified paper trails.

    On the ES&S, the voter is usually facing the machine in a privacy carrel and the machine is a flat block. It very possible for a voter to complete obscure the following transaction ( I know because I've done it). Flip the 5 pound machine over and you find little plastic door. you can easily force this open. Behind it is the Flash memory cards. Yank these out and put them in your pocket. close the food and flip the machine over. Leave and the election is screwed.

    It's also possible a diabolically well outfitted voter could have a second PBS device in his pocket. Armed with that, he can can admin access to the machine and do anything they like and vote as many times as they wish.

    With Sequoias edges, depending on the model revision number there can be a little yellow button on the back. Pressing that causes the machine to go in to supervisor mode. If I lean forward I can just reach around and get that button. If you were watching you could see me execute this clumsy maneauver.

    I've never had the chance to play with diebolds so I can't offer specifics Some diebolds have an unguarded IR port that a hacker might be able to do something interesting with on their palm pilot. But I don't think there's any known attacks yet.

    On all of these machines, it's possible to miscalibrate the screens. The screens can be miscalibrated by heat or scratching them with keys. In the neighboring county we had one guy running for office actually carve his name into the machine. Unfucking believable.

    That same county had a vote buying operation going on (a few people got arrested and convicted). So make sure people vote alone.

    For systems with paper tapes (not paper ballots) you can sell your vote if you have a camera or cell-phone camera because a picture of the voted paper tape before it scrolls out of sight is proof of vote. So no cameras!

    But the problem with all these is that there's a huge risk to the bad voter and they can only affect a few votes. At worst they wreck one machine and probably get caught. Vote flipping is hard if not impossible at the retail level.

    THe really fun things happen when supervisors can reprogram systems, get access to the flash media and have the ability to replace it.

    Perhaps the best way to sabotage an election is the Denial of Service attack. Simply having machines not boot in the morning tends to filter out working wage-class folks over seniors or people on salaries. Having long lines in the late afternoon filters out working moms that have to go pick up the kids and take them to soccer practice. Likewise breakdowns in the evening are cool because you can close the polls while there are still people who have not voted. (see Ohio for example).

    --
    Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
    1. Re:Things to watch for by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What's wrong with selling my vote? If politicians do it, why can't I?

    2. Re:Things to watch for by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Perhaps the best way to sabotage an election is the Denial of Service attack. Simply having machines not boot in the morning tends to filter out working wage-class folks over seniors or people on salaries. Having long lines in the late afternoon filters out working moms that have to go pick up the kids and take them to soccer practice. Likewise breakdowns in the evening are cool because you can close the polls while there are still people who have not voted. (see Ohio for example). This is one thing that I as a European consider very strange - I've seen news footage during previous elections of Americans queuing and sweating in long lines just to vote, and am on the one hand impressed that you endure it but on the other I don't understand why don't you fix it. Perhaps it isn't like that everywhere in your country but I can't help comparing that with my country (Finland but I believe that it's pretty much the same throughout the EU) - voting is always scheduled for a Sunday so it's convenient for people to show up and polling stations are placed on almost every school. Thus there are virtually no lines and you don't need to go far. Last time, I was done in fifteen minutes - including getting there and back home. I might add that votes are, however, not counted and reported per station but for larger areas to ensure that nobody hesitates to vote differently if they live in a small community.
    3. Re:Things to watch for by ConceptJunkie · · Score: 1

      Well, some parts of the U.S. just suck. In more than 20 years of voting I think I've had to wait for more than a trivial amount of time once, and that was for the 1988 Presidential election.

      It would be helpful, I think, if Election Day were a holiday for people, but it just really isn't a problem for me here in Virginia. Voting for me has always been quick and easy. Plus they don't use those stupid touch-screen machines, we mark a normal, simple, readable (human- and machine-readable, that is) ballot with a marker and insert it into a collection machine. It amazes me the bizarre, nonsensical and downright stupid schemes that so many municipalities use.

      The biggest lesson from the U.S. Presidential Election of 2000 didn't have anything to do with Republicans, Democrats, the Supreme Court or Al Gore's incessant whining. The biggest lesson was that the Florida state legislature is grossly incompetent. Everything else was just a side-effect.

      --
      You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
    4. Re:Things to watch for by goombah99 · · Score: 1

      Parliamentary elections tend to be infrequent and usualy have about 2 questions on the ballot. Moreover the districting is simpler.

      IN the US, there tend to be about 60 to 120 elected offices and questions on the ballot. Any given precint can have many different ballots depending on what jurisdiction you live in (e.g. congressional, legislative, school, judicial, and city districts can casue ballot permuations). Additionally there can be ballots in multiple languages and handicap access rules.

      we also have elections a lot more frequently and we also have most elections three times: two to select the candidates for each party and once to choose between parties.

      --
      Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
  114. It ALL ends up in a computer... by narses · · Score: 1

    Perhaps e-voting machines are vulnerable, but let us not forget that computers are responsible for tallying results all the way up the chain to "the winner is..."

  115. mod parent up by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    wish I had mod points

  116. Nothing by Giant+Electronic+Bra · · Score: 2, Insightful

    There is essentially nothing you can do. There is a 'black box' (voting machine). Nobody except the guy that last tampered with it knows what it does. Voters push buttons on the box, and the box makes some entries in a database. There is no way to correlate the two.

    If you ACTUALLY want to insure there is no (electronic) tampering. Disable the machines and have everyone cast paper ballots. Otherwise forget it. Personally I would resign since I wouldn't be capable of doing my job under the circumstances, and frankly maybe this charade would end if all the poll workers stood up and did that.

    Thank you for asking though, it is really nice to know someone is concerned. Sorry we can't be more helpful, but the above is literally (and sadly) the truth...

    --
    "Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem." -- Jefferson
  117. That's easy by skintigh2 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    1) Make sure the company who built the machines is 100% reliable and they do 100% effective background checks on 100% of their employees and 100% of their patches and upgrades are secure and legitimate, and that no human there ever errs.

    2) Make sure that all your machines are 100% physically secure 100% of the time up to and after elections so that the internals cannot be swapped or hacked, and that no human in charge of this errs

    3) Watch 100% of voters 100% of the time to make sure none of them alters or hacks the machines, and make sure none of your staff ever err

    See? It's easy! All it requires is blind faith that humans are infallible and will never do wrong intentionally or through error.

    I'll stick to paper.

  118. How to prevent vote fraud by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Jail all the Republicans before election and let them out after.

  119. Things to do by goombah99 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The chances of election tampering happening in your berg are pretty slim. People are just not sophisticated enough and the system is in too much flux to pull is off easily. As things settle and people gain experience the security holes will be bigger issues.

    The bigger issues are two fold. Errors and the Appearance of fraud. These are indistinguishable on electronic voting machines.

    So you job is to stay calm and go the extra mile to keep everything transparent. It does me no good if your deputy, the guy you've know since you were 8, donated his kidney to you, and married your kid sister seem trustworthy to you. You still have to do things the long boring way. Two people do operations, other witness. No ones word is taken for granted.

    post results on the precint door if the law allows, BEFORE you transmit any results.

    transparency is the key to trustworthy elections. Don't worry so much about fraud as making people see how the process works.

    --
    Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
    1. Re:Things to do by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Both this and the GP are excellent posts. I wish I had mod points for you both, but I wasted them modding down some trolling in a previous topic. :(

  120. Re: To All Those Who Say this Eliminates Secrecy by srobert · · Score: 1

    I'm seeing a lot of comments that my idea is bad because my vote secrecy is lost. But the receipt with the random number needn't be printed on forms that say "Clark County Voter Verification Receipt" etc. It can be a simple fortune cookie size piece of paper with a number on it and that's all. If you need one to prove to your boss that you voted Republican, then you'll find hundreds of them in the trash and on the ground outside your polling place. You could grab some of them in advance to put in your pocket in case your boss is waiting for you. The number could also be simply written down or memorized. Or be chosen from a list. There's lots of ways that this could be done without losing the right to a secret ballot.

  121. Here is what you can do. by v(*_*)vvvv · · Score: 1

    Absolutely nothing. The hackers know what they are doing, and have too much help.

    Technology is not to blame here. People are led to think computers are broken and inferior to paper. The problem is with knowledgeable people using them to achieve even superior goals, such as rigging votes. Its like a nuke in the wrong hands. That is why they need to be taken away. Not because computers are flawed, but because those that possess them are irresponsible.

  122. Asking the wrong question.... by sholton · · Score: 1
    Other posters have said this, but it bears repeating.

    You need to start thinking now about how you are going to convince the loser (and his supporters) that he actually lost...especially if you can't convince yourself. You will have only testimony from the machine; a machine you will be forced to admit is under your control.

    Modern science has yet to produce an instance of non-trivial code which is also bug free, and you are asking the loser to believe your electronic voting machines are 100% bug free, 100% tamper proof, and 100% tamper evident? They know they are not, you know they are not. Nobody is being fooled.

    Resign. You have already lost the game.

    Or plan to keep enough paper ballots on-hand for the entire registered population, and just declare the machines broken before the start.

    It's the only way to be sure.

    Because you know after the final vote is cast, your post here will become part of the lawsuit by whomever loses.

    --
    A new kind of meat designed to appeal to vegetarians.
    1. Re:Asking the wrong question.... by cdrguru · · Score: 1

      Some problems with paper ballots:

      1. The news organizations will announce the winner before the paper can be counted. No question about that, it happened in 2000 and will likely happen in 2008.

      2. It is almost impossible to count any substantial number of items on paper twice and get EXACTLY the same count. This is why there have been thresholds for recounts like 0.05% or so. With the current state of things that may be the total margin between candidates.

      Paper isn't the solution. Maybe fixing the news organizations is part of the answers.

  123. Damned with and without "paper trail" by mi · · Score: 1

    As a computer scientist and programmer I have 0% confidence in any system which doesn't produce a paper audit trail

    And if it does, a voter can be bought and/or pressured to vote for someone else — the buyer (or the thug) will demand to see the voting confirmation before giving the money (or letting the kids go)...

    No "paper-trail" — open to fraud. "Paper-trail" — no voting privacy. Make your choice...

    --
    In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    1. Re:Damned with and without "paper trail" by noliver · · Score: 1

      And if it does, a voter can be bought and/or pressured to vote for someone else — the buyer (or the thug) will demand to see the voting confirmation before giving the money (or letting the kids go)...

      Not if the paper trail can't be taken from the polling place. It's the same as with a paper ballot--you verify that it reflects your choices, and then trust that all the votes will be securely and correctly transferred to the central voting authority.

      If you can't take the paper with you, (as you can't currently) then your point is moot.

    2. Re:Damned with and without "paper trail" by mi · · Score: 1

      Not if the paper trail can't be taken from the polling place.

      Actually, you can, according to an earlier post:

      For systems with paper tapes (not paper ballots) you can sell your vote if you have a camera or cell-phone camera because a picture of the voted paper tape before it scrolls out of sight is proof of vote. So no cameras!

      I don't see, how paper-ballots are immune to this either — if it is something you can see, it is something you can photograph... Are you going to strip-search people entering the booth to make sure, they have no cameras on them?

      If you can't take the paper with you, (as you can't currently) then your point is moot.

      Then you can't make a recount or prove anything once you left the station. Also, if the vote-buyer's representative is among the vote-watching personnel (at the station), your point is moot.

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    3. Re:Damned with and without "paper trail" by TheMCP · · Score: 1

      Your argument is BS in terms of being a reason not to have a paper trail: it doesn't matter what method of voting is used, someone can always twist the voter's arm, or the voter can always bring in a camera.

      The point is to ensure that what the voter actually voted is what is reflected in the vote count, that people can't come along and change all the votes after the voters have voted. If the data is electronic, they can change it untraceably. If the data is on paper, they'd have to replace the paper, which is detectable, or falsify the counting process, which is also detectable. Therefore, paper is a workable solution, and fully electronic voting and counting is not.

    4. Re:Damned with and without "paper trail" by mi · · Score: 1

      If the data is on paper, they'd have to replace the paper, which is detectable, or falsify the counting process, which is also detectable.

      Ever heard of stuffing the vote-box? Guess, what it is stuffed with... Paper-ballots. After everybody votes and leave, the official responsible removes all/some of the paper-ballots for the "wrong guy", and adds enough ballots for the "right guy".

      It's been with us ever since voting was invented — long before the electronics.

      E-voting, which came into the fore after the Florida-2000 disaster, makes it harder for electronics-illiterate people to do this, while making it easier for the electronics-literate ones.

      I don't see, how one method is more detectable than another (forensics can find evidence of tampering with storage media, etc., just as well as they can analyze the ashes left from the burned ballots) — unless each voter gets a (forgery-proof) paper receipt to take with them (and hang on the wall or stick to their car's bumper). Then, in case of doubt, each (or every 100th) voter can be asked to come back with their receipts to verify the results.

      Unfortunately, such methods endanger voting privacy...

      Hence my "damned if you do, damned if don't" sentiment... In the current climate in America, I am in favor of paper receipts (which voters can take with them). If someone somewhere is a victim of intimidation, that's a shame, but is better than wide-spread corruption made possible by absence of verification. (And vote-buying should not be illegal in my opinion anyway.)

      But that's the trade-off still...

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    5. Re:Damned with and without "paper trail" by TheMCP · · Score: 1

      There are established methods of dealing with "stuffing the vote box", such as making sure it is shown to be empty before voting starts (inspectable by voters) and that voters are able to monitor it at all times between that time and when counting is complete.

      Conversely, there is no equivalent method of ensuring that a computerized voting device is electronically recording votes honestly. None. Period. Your claim that tampering with storage media is also BS because it won't necessarily detect swapped media, and definitely won't detect if the media is original but the results recorded on it by the machine in the first place are fraudulent. (You press "Kerry", it records "The voter pressed Bush".)

      Not to mention that the track record of such machines shows that often there *isn't* any auditable media, the machine transmits its data to a central counting point (which in some cases is alleged to have been swapped with a party-controlled substitute for a man-in-the-middle attack) and the local officials reset the machines at the end of the day, destroying even the lame pretense of an audit trail.

      At least with paper, it's possible for voters to physically monitor the entire process to ensure that it's being done honestly - and if officials won't let them, then they know the election is being stolen.

  124. BEST ANSWER PERIOD --Re:E-Voting machines bite by bratwiz · · Score: 1


    This has got to be one of the very best comments/suggestions I have read on the whole e-voting business.

    MOD THIS GUY UP -- he deserves a FIVE not a ZERO.

    And if any election workers are reading this-- this is the money shot.

  125. Wellll... by Dieppe · · Score: 1
    It's not the Republicans want to keep people from voting, it's just that they'd rather people not vote who are in heavily Democratic (or anti-Republican) districts.

    But that, aside... you're more likely to run across incompetence than actual voter fraud. Or situations where the voting worker hands out the wrong ballot, or thinks that "American Independent" means "No Party"...

    Or won't use the vote checking machines, or other technology available. I suppose you could keep an eye on anyone with a thumb drive, if you have electronic voting machine. In all honesty your voter fraud is going to come from within than from your average "Joe Voter" who votes both YES and NO for a proposition.

  126. How about not using a computer? by globaljustin · · Score: 1

    Hey election supervisor, the only way to make sure electronic voting machines are being tampered with is to not use them.

    USE PAPER BALLOTS

    --
    Thank you Dave Raggett
  127. You're asking the wrong question by Yinepuhotep · · Score: 1

    Your problem is not the voters. It's the people in the back room who are counting the votes. As has been demonstrated repeatedly, anyone with access to the vote counting machines can easily tamper with the votes, so unless there is a paper trail that the computerized tally can be verified against, there is no way to prevent vote tampering.

    --
    Gun control: The belief that a woman, raped and strangled with her panties, is morally superior to a dead rapist.
    1. Re:You're asking the wrong question by slashname3 · · Score: 1

      Even when there is a paper trail hanging chads can cause all kinds of problems and shown in previous elections.

    2. Re:You're asking the wrong question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, that's a good example of there NOT being a paper trail. A true paper trail is one where the vote is both independently verifiable and not able to be tampered with. As was proved in New Hampshire during the Republican Primary of 2008, we don't even have that in New Hampshire.

  128. Not realistic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I live in Harris County, and I've worked elections with the electronic system. My advice: give it up. There's plenty of opportunities for fraud, but most won't play out in the precinct polling locations on election day. The real opportunities are in the initial programming of the machines, and the tally process at the end. If someone wants to hack the election, a simple programmatic change will be far more effective. An "adjustment" of your precinct's numbers will be far easier at the Election supervisor's office late Tuesday evening. Or perhaps during the several days the voting machines are stored at the polling place prior to the election. And since there is no paper trail, it would be almost impossible to prove.

  129. Ask Your Boss by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 0, Troll

    Everyone knows the Republican National Committee wrote the book on rigging elections. You're just not going to the right meetings.

    --

    --
    make install -not war

  130. Tamper Proof Machine (no, really) by msheekhah · · Score: 1

    Tampering with the mail is a FEDERAL OFFENCE. So, why don't we use that to our advantage. You make your electronic vote. It prints out a pre paid postage mailer. You double check the vote yourself. If there is any mismatch, the paper ballot counts. If the ballot doesn't show up from the mail, the ballot is voided, but you also got a receipt and contact information to follow up with. The electronic vote, mailer ballot, and receipt have a random generated number that is guaranteed not to duplicate, so they can be matched without revealing identity. Messing with the electronic system is a normal charge, unless it changes the outcome of the printed ballot, which should be caught immediately. If not, too bad. Your lack of attention cost you your vote. However, messing with the delivery of the ballots is a normal offence. The ballots are sent to the state level. If, for some reason, the electronic vote doesn't match the mailer ballot, the voter then checks on their receipt. The hows and whys of this system should be made into PSA's a full year before the election occurs, so everyone knows what to expect. Don't think it's going to happen, but it could work.

    --
    Mark Anthony Collins
  131. Here's the Toolkit for Spotting Fraud by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 0, Troll

    I don't think Republicans can learn anything new about stealing elections.

    But for everyone else, BlackBoxVoting.org has just published a new toolkit for spotting rigged elections as they happen, and in evaluating their aftermath.

    BBV.o is run by Bev Harris, who can be difficult to work with, but her entire operation is an "open source" style project that hands out tools and info to anyone who wants to DIY. Try it at home!

    --

    --
    make install -not war

  132. outside looking in by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The only thing you Yayhoos are proving is that the whole notion of electronic voting is silly - If your going to have an electronic machine to create the ballot, then the voter is going to sign it and drop it in a box, wtf is the point of the machine? I also find it funny that the same people who were screaming FOR electronic voting after the 2000 election are now screaming AGAINST it....also, the idea that fraud in elections is something new which is somehow connected to only electronic voting...You should work in a polling place sometime - it is quite mundane and civil - the tricks don't happen there....Then there's the whole notion of a choice - like there's actually a difference between democrat and republican - when they talk, they sound different, but when they're in power, there is no difference.

  133. Secrecy? Was: Re:Do you have a paper trail? by sjs132 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The point of the secret ballot is so that these can't be issues in the first place.


    Secrecy? Do you really think your vote is anonymous? In Ohio: When I walk in, I wait in line.. The LOL'S (Little Ol' Lady Squad) asks for my Name and ID. After They Find me in the books, I have to sign in on a numbered page. That Signature is compared on my Voter registration page. They never look much the same, but I don't think anyone really cares. The last lady gets told the sequential line # that I'm signed in on, and punches that into the diabold (I think) card reader thing.

    That Card links me to my vote. I then go and vote my votes. at verification time, it is printed... I can then choose to change it, and I have in the past if I misread a name, etc.

    After changes it is verification time, again. after final verification is printed, and I have agreeed that that is my vote, it prints off lots of #'s and stuff and then form feeds the sheet out of the window.

    I'm (I shouldn't) assuming that those #'s link back to the Card # / translation to my voter line # / name. If they don't, I'd be surprised because that is the audit trail that NEEDS to be there, and that is what I want.

    I do not care about a secret vote because I am not ashamed of my vote.

    The only people that need secret votes is if they are afraid of who they are voting for, and if it is that bad, then we have other problems beyond voting machines to worry about.

    Now, My UNION that I belong to has indicated that THEY want to take away anonymous voting... THAT is wrong because with such a smaller sampling of people, then there can be revenge directed and extracted onto a worker who didn't vote the "correct" way. As for General election, I don't think that will be an issue.

    BTW,
      If I'm not carrying ID or have a non photo ID, I can vote provisional. But that doesn't really count unless a recount is asked for. This is where a lot of dead people vote. It's all paperwork that you don't have to verify, just swear under "oath" that the information provided is correct. (Right...)

    --
    --- Relax, that mass muderer is just trying to reduce our carbon footprint, one fetus at a time...
    1. Re:Secrecy? Was: Re:Do you have a paper trail? by TrinSF · · Score: 1

      Wow, that's awful, requiring an ID. Not only do we not require one except for first time voters who have registered by mail, but when people pull theirs out, I ask them to please put them away, because they are not part of the voting process. Are you sure that's a state requirement in Ohio? My understanding is that our state has interpreted the Federal law as not requiring an ID for each vote, and so we don't. For so many years, ID requirements were used to disenfranchise voters, so I'm really sensitive to it.

      So, just so you know, showing ID is not standard everywhere.

    2. Re:Secrecy? Was: Re:Do you have a paper trail? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why would it disenfranchise me? If I'm approached by a police man, he has the right to ask for ID. I forget the case, but I do remember that that was upheld somewhere. ("Papers Please" I think was the title of blog or rant someplace...)

      I don't see requiring someone to prove they are who they say as being a negative thing. I have nothing to hide, I'm not dodging warrants, I'm not a dead voter, so what is the problem with giving an ID?

      If I forget my ID, I can come back with it, or fill out the provisional. If I don't have a drivers license ID, I think they take a number of other id's, like utility payment stub, etc. Basically something to prove that you are who you say you are.

      NOT requiring the ID would be where you have fraud. If that is what you WANT, then I see why your against asking for it....

    3. Re:Secrecy? Was: Re:Do you have a paper trail? by TrinSF · · Score: 1

      No, that's not correct. Under recent rulings, police can stop you and ask your *name*, and can arrest you if you refuse to provide it, or charge you if you provide false information. But current legal precedents do not currently require ID. It's a common misconception.

      Now, if you are doing something that requires an ID -- driving a car, for example, you can be asked to show that ID, and charged if you don't have it. But currently, it is not a legal requirement for US citizens to carry ID.

      I am not a lawyer, but that's my current understanding of the situation. Google it. Further, google the history of requiring ID to prevent voters. It's one of the single most historically common ways that poor and African-American voters have been prevented from voting. Don't let them have ID's, then don't let them vote without ID's -- or make them pay large amounts for ID's, then don't let them vote without them, etc. Right up there with poll taxes and literacy tests.

    4. Re:Secrecy? Was: Re:Do you have a paper trail? by Unipuma · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The only people that need secret votes is if they are afraid of who they are voting for, and if it is that bad, then we have other problems beyond voting machines to worry about. ... As for General election, I don't think that will be an issue. Wow, hope you can explain that to the people in Zimbabwe who get beat up if they don't vote for Mugabe in their presidential election.

      Vote anonymity is important, in EVERY election. It's not about being ashamed of your vote, but about not having ANY outside pressure influencing how you vote.
      People should be allowed to vote even for something they 'should feel ashamed about', since that means they just disagree with the current morals of that community.

    5. Re:Secrecy? Was: Re:Do you have a paper trail? by NeoSkandranon · · Score: 1

      If it can happen in your union, it can happen in ANY election.

      --
      If you can't see the value in jet powered ants you should turn in your nerd card. - Dunbal (464142)
    6. Re:Secrecy? Was: Re:Do you have a paper trail? by onecheapgeek · · Score: 1

      State law in Ohio. ID is required to cast a non-provisional ballot. By allowing you to cast a provisional, they aren't denying you a vote and therefore it is legal. Thus sayeth the courts.

    7. Re:Secrecy? Was: Re:Do you have a paper trail? by moortak · · Score: 1

      Yes, it is a requirement in Ohio.

      --
      Xavier Rabourdin for president 2012
  134. mod parent up by bussdriver · · Score: 1

    This is one of the BEST ideas I have heard! and I've read a lot about the issue (long before ./ even noticed anything.)

    A random machine acting as a control that has a known voting pattern input during the same period of time would help catch tampering. Hardly anybody has thought this one up or dares to do it (because the machines cost so much and it would mean more voters have to wait.) Good thing to have one or two of the volunteers do all day long. (video tape that machine as well...)

    Too much talk of this idea however will just let the companies ("hackers") know to ignore machines that have an unusual input pattern and count them honestly.

  135. Sorry, but your facts are wrong. by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 2, Informative

    You are wrong on nearly all counts.

    (1) E-voting tampering has proven to be rampant and has been reported virtually "everywhere", i.e., it is impossible to predict what precinct will be victim, rural or otherwise.

    (2) "The people", sophisticated or not, are not the problem. The problem is sophisticated, carefully prepared, and sneaky people who are in positions of authority or easy access. That is, the people to watch are voting officials and employees of the voting machine company, and anyone else who has "special" access, even if that is just tallying the count.

    (3) Real errors are few, and they are EASY to distinguish from fraud. In order for electronic voting fraud to be worthwhile, each tampered machine must have significantly skewed results. You are correct, however, that "appearance of fraud" can be a problem.

    You are also correct that transparency is your greatest ally. However, all the "apparent", public transparency you can muster will not compensate for "oddly designed" or hacked software on the voting machine. The only transparency that will solve that problem is public access to the machine's code. Some states are adopting laws to that effect.

    1. Re:Sorry, but your facts are wrong. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1) facts and citations please.

      2) Read the posts you are replying to more carefully. as the qualifications the author made rule out your cases for voter fraud.

      3) You appear to be inventing your own myths.

    2. Re:Sorry, but your facts are wrong. by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      To "anonymous coward": (1) I presented exactly as many facts and citations as the comment to which I was responding. If you don't like that, then go find your own. (2) I did read the post. And I replied to it in kind. Maybe you should go read it again, if you don't think so. (3) Less so than the commenter to whom I was responding. You are incorrect. Again, if you don't believe me, go check your own facts. Nobody is stopping you. But if you do, prepare to be surprised.

  136. Votes aren't Doughnuts by Expensive+Peter · · Score: 1

    Votes aren't donuts. Funny that my spell checker doesn't like doughnuts. I wonder what Mitch Hedberg would say other than "I bought a doughnut and they gave me a receipt for the doughtnut... I don't need a receipt for the doughnut. I give you money and you give me the doughnut, end of transaction. We don't need to bring ink and paper into this. I can't imagine a scenario that I would have to prove that I bought a doughnut. To some skeptical friend, 'Don't even act like I didn't get that doughnut, I've got the documentation right here... It's in my file at home. ...Under "D".'" Instead I would file my vote receipt under "V".

  137. Wrong question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you are trying to ask the question, "How can I detect fraud?", you have already lost.

    To win, you must be able to prove the absence of fraud.

  138. A footnote... by mbessey · · Score: 1

    I went through and read the whole report for the specific voting machines in San Mateo county (where I happen to live, too), and they're probably the best of a bad lot (Hart Intercivic eSlate). I'm still left wondering why we want to go through all this expense and difficulty to solve problems that don't even exist for paper ballots, marked by the individual voter.

    Yes, yes, I know - it's all the fault of the Help America Vote Act. I really don't buy it that the level of technical work that went into all this precluded simply creating a human- and machine-readable voting record that the voter can drop in a ballot box.

    I don't miund if the voting process is assisted by a computer, keeping people from spoiling their ballots by accidentally over-voting, or with stray marks on the ballot. I just want the end result (the thing that's counted) to be something that I can independently verify is correct, and that can be hand-counted.

    I'd also argue that hand-counting should be the rule, rather than the error-recovery mechanism, but that idea seems to have remarkably little traction.

  139. NO, IT'S NOT by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

    My state uses a marked paper ballot that is then deposited in an optical reader for counting. If the machine is in error, there are paper ballots to count. And nobody's name is on the ballot... but they must check off their name on the "registered voters" list in order to get the ballot.

    Number of voters is verifiable, and number of votes for each candidate are verifiable, but nobody knows WHO voted for whom.

  140. Easy... by Homer's+Donuts · · Score: 1

    If Ron Paul is winning, you've been duped. More than once.

  141. Buy machines with a paper trail. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Nothing but a voter verifiable paper output that is then put into a ballot box can guarantee that an electronic voting system is working properly.

  142. E-voting woes by jknyght9 · · Score: 1

    In my experience, optical scanners showed the least issues with tampering; however, still leaving the possibility of ballot box stuffing if the paper ballot collection box is not properly engineered or secured. Now on the issue of Diebold's AVOS that was tampered with in Ohio, this was only achieved by poor upgrading practices (i.e. certifying all upgrades and updates) and allowing Diebold corporate officials access to county systems. Remember if you are a state official your job is to make sure that everyones vote is counted and done correctly. Corporations are there to make money by any means necessary, even if it means to rig an election so that they can have an elected official in their pocket.

  143. it'll already be too late by nategoose · · Score: 1

    The problem with using a magical box to count votes is that the cheating probably doesn't happen under the watchful eyes of poll workers, but before you even open up. The machines would already be told to count wrong. In the cases of cheating at the poll on voting day that would depend on the machines being used. If someone brings a soldering iron with them they're probably cheating, though.

  144. Let's only count the paper, please. by chocolatetrumpet · · Score: 1

    Only after the voter has verified the paper matches his/her intent, then the voter finally casts his/her ballot.

    Umm??? Anything can happen after the vote has been "cast."

    We're talking about digital electronics. No one can observe their workings. Things can always be changed without anyone ever knowing.

    --
    Spoon not. Fork, or fork not. There is no spoon.
    1. Re:Let's only count the paper, please. by TrinSF · · Score: 1

      Except you'd have to change several things. You'd have to change the paper trail, and the electronic record, which is not being store at the voting unit itself. It's possible, but I'll be honest -- it's easier to change/falsify paper ballots.

      At no point have I said that voting fraud does not or cannot happen, or that the election system of my county is tamper-proof. NO election is tamperproof. The goal of systems I'm aware of is to make it harder, but the bottom line is that it's not completely preventatble, even with paper ballots.

  145. Fail-safe method to spot tampering by billcopc · · Score: 1

    IANA-American, but from what I understand, if the Republicans win, consider it hax.

    Amirite ?

    Oh, I'm sorry, are you nauseated by my godless gay-spreading liberal "bias" ?

    Thanks, I'll be here all week. Try the veal!

    --
    -Billco, Fnarg.com
  146. Having been a supervisor for 3 years now... by eaddict · · Score: 1

    the only 'tampering' I have found is that the Republican judges don't show up to work. Can't open the polls if only 1 party is present. Yes, I am is a very red state but he few blue areas that we have seem to misteriously have this happen. People (D and R) I am sure are figuring out how to game the system. Another example is the Supreme Court has basically disinfrancising many folks by requiring a government ID though there has been few if ANY cases of fraud.

    --
    "If you are on fire you can just stop, drop, and roll. If you fall into Lava you are just dead." - my 5yr old daughter
  147. well...worry about it a little. by Justabit · · Score: 0

    You'll be fine...

    Just don't let Michah Saunders get near one of them.

    http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0015555/

    --
    "Persistance is Fertile" - Me. I can quote myself if I want to.
  148. Re: To All Those Who Say this Eliminates Secrecy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In addition, voter coercion is illegal. Your employer or union boss might as well ask if you are a lesbian or threaten you with firing if you don't sleep with them. Anybody attempting to break the law on a scale needed to flip an election will get caught. I like the reciept/verify process. I'd also eliminate the need for the poll. Let me doing it effing online. You'll still need centers to count/tally/work/rally/celebrate/mourn so I don't think meatspace voting options would be reduced. It may even be possible to develop more sophisticated exit polling by third parties. And ineligible voters should be eliminated (to at least a 99% certainty level - 99% of all voters are verified). An ineligible voter is just as bad a ballot box stuffer.

    For the life of me, it is a damn mystery why people here (not you) focus on secrecy. I don't want my congressman voting in secret - why should my I be any different? Where accountability is mandatory, secrecy should be abhored. Maybe that is 'too far' on voting for everyday citizens being asked to contribute in a small way. Nonetheless, secrecy should not be more important than verification.

  149. Re:Just ask the exit poll? by spopepro · · Score: 1

    Exit polls aren't wrong, just the people who report them. When is the last time you were told the confidence level along with the margin of error, (or the sample size, allowing you to compute the necessary information)? A +/-2% margin of error with 68% confidence doesn't mean much.

  150. Voting as a sacred boon by shanen · · Score: 1

    Boy, this topic touches a nerve. Dubya's residual neo-GOP in Texas just disenfranchised me this year. They think voting is a sacred boon, whereas I was just some kind of idiot who thought it was a sacred right, and even something of a public duty.

    I was born in Texas, and have an honorable discharge from the military. I even graduated from a university in Harris County. I've never been charged as a felon--but I don't live in America now. Until this year they've mostly allowed me to vote, but they are extra desperate this time around, so the representative of the Secretary of State's Office told me I can't vote.

    Anyone know a good lawyer for this sort of thing? I really wouldn't mind sticking it to them, and hard. However, I think it's basically a case of you can't fight city hall. Dubya has the gold, so he made the rules.

    --
    Freedom = (Meaningful - Coerced) Choice != (Speech | Beer^2), and sad sock puppets' bad mods avail them naught.
  151. Be honesy by Yvanhoe · · Score: 1

    Do you realize that you will be there to guarantee the fairness of the vote and that you have to turn to a public forum because you have no idea about how you have to do that ?
    Actually, if people ask you how to be sure of the fairness of the vote without a paper trail, the only honest answer is "you can't". There. With this you will have been doing your job.

    --
    The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
  152. anonymous accountability of voting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    current evoting system is too much broken.
    my suggesion is as follows:
    when voting each voter is assigned a unique voter number. When votes are counted the following data is published nasion-wide:
    voter ID + his vote choices

    having that each voter can check if his choices where counted as he expected them to be counted

    since his voter ID is known to himself only his vote is still anonymous even when published

  153. Re:Malfunction bigger threat than Hacking. Seal it by xouumalperxe · · Score: 1

    As far as hacking, you should probably seal the machines with strong tape,

    The trick here is that you're not trying to prevent tampering (which you can't, really), so much as you're trying to detect it. Rather than duct tape, which *will* get worn and torn a bit from being handled (I mean, how many people do you know that won't pick at it if they stay in the booth for more than a few seconds?), a great idea is candle wax.

    You could find stuff like the hinges to the ballot box, and/or other such joints that must move to tamper with the physical paper trail, but really shouldn't move under ordinary usage. Then, melt a droplet of candle wax on top of the joints. If it's out of the way in a user inaccessible place, and especially if on top of a hinge with lots of "holds", it'll hold solid, and won't be diturbed unless someone tampers with the machine.

  154. No. by PotatoHead · · Score: 1

    They cannot be trusted even then. eg: How do you know the binary running is the one verified / certified? How about behavioral testing? User Interface issues, misalignment, etc...?

    Bottom line is that you, the voter, are forced to trust a proxy in order to cast your vote.

  155. Why "BEFORE you transmit..."? by Herve5 · · Score: 1

    Here in France I use to systematically attend, I undertand and do everything you say, but the person in charge of the global coordination (appointed by the mayor) usually phones the results home before we publish them on the doors...

    --
    Herve S.
    1. Re:Why "BEFORE you transmit..."? by goombah99 · · Score: 1

      There are a variety of reasons why publishing in a low tech way before submitting is good.

      The main reasons are to make it transparent that avenues of reverse information flow are being as foreclosed as possible.

      There are a number of examples where machines ostensibly only receiving data are actually changing data on the primary source. IN voting systems this is especially a risk because the machines that collate votes tend to be more sophisticated general purpose systems, thus ripe for more attacks, and are a single point of failure. While the data is still in low tech form, before being connected to a higher tech instrument is the time to publish it.

      For example, some diebold systems network all the terminals together to a master terminal. There's already demo viruses that back propoagate during this transaction.

      And example of this outside the voting area is the case of the guy who robbed casion machines. He used the testing machine to corrupt the firmware of the one armed bandits it was supposedly just "testing".

      In your case, even though know electronic connection is involved, it forces a commitment to the proposed transaction before the operator has a placed the phone call during which some sort of collusion could occur.

      it's not that collusion could not occur other ways. It's just that the protocol forecloses some opportunities and enhances transparency. it cuts down on the time for collusion that might occur with later reporting sites.

      --
      Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
  156. Easy by DeanFox · · Score: 1

    "I am one of the Republican Party Precinct Chairs... I want advice from those of you who are experts on what to watch for to make sure there is no fraudulant activity at my precinct during the election... Easy. The Republican wins. On another note, a person of your supposed stature would be best served with a spell checker.

    -[d]-
  157. applause by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As a Harris County voter, I applaud your concern!

  158. chip and pin style by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A sensible verification method for the machines might be the chip and pin method, whereby after a certain number of customers the next one is verified by signing a receipt. So certain ballots would be printed and checked - then they don't have to print everything...

  159. Keep Repubilcan operatives away from it. by dentar · · Score: 1

    The best way to avoid electronic election fraud is to not use electronic voting machines to begin with. If you have to use electronic machines, however, the second best way is to be sure you're not using Diebold machines. Also, keep people like Karl Rove, Wally Odell (http://www.motherjones.com/commentary/columns/2004/03/03_200.html), and other Republican operatives away from the electronic voting machines. However, all these won't really prevent the machines from registering votes for George W. Bush, since they came from the factory with a pre-programmed narrow margin of victory for the Republican party. Since you're a republican, the fix is in and you have nothing to worry about.

    --
    -- I am. Therefore, I think!
  160. How to detect "potential" hacking by ekimminau · · Score: 1

    Someone who is absolutely positive of what they are going to do, how they are going to do it and how long it is going to take to perform will probably be undetectable.
    Someone coming in and tring to hack the system on the fly "should" be identifyable by the length of time required to vote.
    Have a stop watch for each voter. Start the watch when each voter enters their booth. Stop it when the exit. Log the results. Deviations >10% are either:
    A) suspect
    or
    B) Texans from Harris county
    :)

    --
    Armaments, 2-9-21 And Saint Attila raised the hand grenade up on high, saying, 'O Lord, bless this Thy hand grenade' N
  161. The biggest problem with elections... by slashname3 · · Score: 0

    The biggest problem that will be encountered at the election is the complete lack of qualified candidates to choose from. Given that we are stuck with a two party system and have over 200 years of evolution creating politicians that are excellent at sound bites and collecting money from lobbies none of the candidates have the peoples interests at heart. They are owned by conglomerates and lobbies that paid good money to pass whatever legislation they want.

    No matter which candidate gets into office very little useful legislation will get passed. It will be more of the same pork barrel projects giving money to the "friends" of the candidates that won.

    The really funny part is if by some stroke of luck or trickery the Democrats get the White House they still won't pass any useful bills even though they would control all parts of the government except for the judiciary. In some ways it will be better if the Republicans keep the White House since that would provide a check on Congress and the White House as they fight it out for another four years.

  162. Pairs of workers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Choose teams consisting of one registered democrat and one registered republican to perform all the tasks listed by others (transporting the machines, setting them up, watching them.) Have them work in pairs the whole time, and in advance show them the papers you will have them sign saying "I did not tamper with, nor did I witness anyone tampering with..." It won't absolutely prevent problems (nothing will), but it will CYA if someone accuses.

  163. all using the same equipment by reiisi · · Score: 1

    Could that be the problem?

    If the voter with no special needs is handed a felt-tip and a paper ballot, all he needs to vote is three walls and a curtain. The machinery can be saved for the people who really need them.

    Presto! much shorter lines.

    --
    Computer memory is just fancy paper, CPUs just fancy pens with fancy erasers; the 'net is just a fancy backyard fence.
  164. Voting in Harris County, Texas by Tildedot · · Score: 1

    The e-vote balloting machines are very simple, and provide little opportunity for a user to "hack". There are no memory cards or USB ports. There are four buttons and a scrolling wheel. The machines are daisy-chained to a central hub which initializes the ballot on the machine, and records the completed ballots. The hubs are headless, and have no provision for voting for any individual or party. It would be a difficult proposition for any user to affect the system via the e-ballot machine, or the hub.

    Things to look out for:
    Input into the system is via a scrolling wheel, not a touch screen, and this may initially confuse some of our older voters. Be sure that the voter knows to "check the box" with the select button, and not just scroll down and press the wheel (which does NOT select anything). Watch for voters that forget to press the "Cast Ballot" button before they leave, because an uncast, but registered, ballot causes several problems. The single most important thing is to have the voter check their final vote summary before pressing the "Cast Ballot" key. When the American flag waves, your vote is cast :^)

    You, as a Precinct Judge, have a stack of paperwork to complete prior to opening the polls, and even more after closing the polls. Both you (as a Republican), and your Assistant (second-in-command, who is a Democrat), will open the sealed hubs and verify the total vote count of the machine (non-zero), serial number, and this election's vote count (zero). No less than 3 register tapes from each central hub will be run, and the total ballot count *will* match the exact number of signatures in the poll books AND the number of ballots assigned/cast by the voters -- or you will have to explain why (hence the problem with an un-cast ballot, above). Follow the checklist and instructions, and it will go smoothly. Try to keep a running total of poll signatures, and check it frequently with the hub ballot totals -- it will speed up reconciliation, later.

    A copy of the register tape will stay in your permanent records, as well as a copy of the polling list and other germane documents. You can actually compare the register tape with the published precinct vote information in the paper the next day.

    Note: I volunteer at our Harris County, TX, precinct. I am an assistant to our Precinct Judge, and have used/setup these machines for the last three years.

  165. Identify tamper points by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    First, identify tamper points on the machine. For example, I expect there to be a place where you can connect an external device such as a USB device or memory card. These points must be secured, and I believe that the methods to secure them are provided (tape). You can not protect against issues that are inherent to the machine, so don't worry about them. For example, if the machine has a bug such that canceling a vote still records it, well, you can not do much about that.

  166. Seed data by rgviza · · Score: 1

    The e-vote software needs to seed the data at random intervals from a list. It should store the data hashed. You filter the resulting seed votes (and remove them) from the results using the same list, but not before validating them all to see if any of it has been changed. If any of the seed data has changed, the results have been tampered with. The lists should be generated randomly, formulated into data that looks like the rest of the data, and loaded into the voting machine daily to prevent predictability. It's not rocket science... Of course the risk is that someone loses the seed data file, or uses the wrong one accidentally. You need to design the system so it's really hard to make this mistake, but is stored in the voting machine hashed with a strong algorithm. Losing this file would invalidate the machine's results. You'd need to store a list of all voters that used each machine daily, but in a way that you couldn't associate the voters with the votes, so if the worst happend they could be called back to revote. This would be very fun to build and quite effective...

    --
    Don't kid yourself. It's the size of the regexp AND how you use it that counts.
  167. OT - your sig by sm62704 · · Score: 1

    If I had a dollar for every brain I didn't have, I'd have over six billion dollars. Of course, that's just human brains, do animals count?

    (NKB checked)

    If brains were dynamite, most people here in Springfield wouldn't have enough to blow their noses.

    --
    mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
  168. Hacking Democracy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I don't think the voters are the ones you need to be worried about. These machines are very faulty and have a lot of vulnerabilities. Why we're still using them after what happened in florida is beyond me.
    But in case you're interested there is great documentary called "Hacking Democracy" (you can watch it straight from google) shows all the things that can go wrong with these machines and just how unsecure they really are.

  169. that's precisely the problem: you can't. by happyjack27 · · Score: 1

    That's precisely the problem with e-voting (or one of the many, I should say), you CAN'T detect tampering. Frankly, you're screwed. And from what you write, it sounds like you already know it. My suggestion is to do everything you can to get the county to switch to optical scan machines. They are the most secure (tamper-resistant, etc.) voting method. They are also the cheapest. We've been using them for a long time in Ozaukee County, Wisconsin and have never had the slightest problem or concern. It boggles my mind why every county in the country isn't using optical scan machines for voting. But then again, it boggles my mind why any precinct in the country is using e-voting at all. Petition your local government to switch to a more secure voting technology (such as pen and paper, for instance). That's really all you can do. Everything else is just a band-aid on a broken bone.

    1. Re:that's precisely the problem: you can't. by happyjack27 · · Score: 1

      oh, and you're hearing this from a technophile. using technology right is about using the right technology (not the latest). for elections, black boxes are precisely the wrong technology, and that's exactly what e-voting machines are. what you want is a write-once glass box. that's why pen and paper is superior.

  170. You can't by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Under the conditions you describe, you can't.

    And it would be very Very VERY difficult for a voter to do it.

    It's before the polls open and after they close that tampering with electronic voting machines happens.

  171. Count the machines by cryingpoet · · Score: 1

    Voter fraud happens on the machines you DO NOT see, not on the ones you do. Compare the count of how many machines are at your site with how many you should have with how many the state says you should have when you call them.

  172. Check out this voter's experience by TrogL · · Score: 1
  173. How to spot e-vote tampering? by funkify · · Score: 1

    When the results are final and "American Ninja" receives 801 votes, I think you'll know you're in trouble.

  174. hack the postelection audit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Make sure the postelection audit is Ohio'd,
    in other words pick the "random precincts"
    so you miss the tampered ones.

    You are asking how to make sure your cheating
    does not get detected, right?

  175. The fault, dear Repuke, is not in your stars... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The fault, dear Repuke,
    is not in your stars
    but in yourselves
    that you are underlings.

    Or, in the case of the Repuke Party... it lies in your party. If you want to know who's vote tampering... look at the Republicans working at the polling place. Or look in your mirror. You guys may have denied the will of the American people for at least eight years, but the conservative movement has finally choked to death on it's own filth and corruption.

    Not even your vote rigging is going to stop the Obama-rama!

    But hey, thanks for the permanent one-party majority. We couldn't have done it without you. Really, I mean it- we couldn't have done it without you. Keep staying that course!

  176. I think you're missing the point by Omnifarious · · Score: 1

    The grandparent had a point you seemed to have missed. The problem is the lines. Allowing people to use pencil and paper instead of voting machines isn't enough. If the encourage option is the voting machine a lot of people will stand in line waiting for one to be available without really thinking about using pencil and paper to get out of line more quickly.

    So, for the availability of paper and pencil voting to solve the line problem, you have to do a few things:

    1. You have to have a whole bunch of privacy booths for the pencil and paper voting.
    2. You have to have plenty of pencil and paper ballots available.
    3. You have to regularly announce (especially when the lines are longer) that pencil and paper are an option and that there are a lot of free booths.

    Doing those things will solve the line problem. The mere availability of pencil and paper voting does not.

    1. Re:I think you're missing the point by TrinSF · · Score: 1

      I've never had to worry about lines -- our max wait has been 4-5 people, about 2-3 minutes. One of the ways to prevent them is to make the maximum size of a precint's roster count smaller. In our county, it's 1000 people, which translates to 300 or so active voters, of which almost half are absentee since they began offering the permanent absentee option. Of course, to have smaller precinct sizes, you have to have enough pollworkers and equipment, which can be its own problem.

  177. Hacking Democracy by TechnoJoe · · Score: 1

    This show is some of the best investigative journalism I have ever seen.

    Hacking Democracy
    http://www.hackingdemocracy.com/

    I would highly recommend that you and your counterpart from the other party watch it.

    In case you aren't able to get a hold of it or watch it, I'll summarize it for you here.

    • If you're using touch-screen voting machines, you're pwned http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pwn).
    • Optical voting machines, which read or scan a paper ballot, have no internal security mechanisms on the memory cards. The memory cards are inserted into the machines and used to store the total number of votes. These memory cards are vulnerable to tampering both before and after use . Many people remember the importance of ensuring the memory cards aren't tampered with after use (someone can change the numbers). However, it is equally important to prevent tampering before the memory card gets to the ballot machine. Someone could put a negative number on the memory card before it is inserted into the ballot machine so that a candidate will be "in-the-red" before the first ballot is even cast. This is the digital equivalent of ballot stuffing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballot_stuffing).
    • The central tabulation software is also highly vulnerable to tampering.

    Please keep in mind that these attack vectors come from election officials. Fraud from voters can be stopped by the people who check the name and registration at the door.

    To protect against these attack venues, I recommend that no one person be left alone with any memory cards or with the central tabulation computer. In other words:

    • Two people are present when the memory cards are blanked out and made ready for use by the ballot machines.
    • Two people physically transport the memory cards to the ballot machines and supervise them until they are inserted.
    • Two people supervise the removal of the memory cards and the transportation back to the central tabulator.
    • Two people are present when the results are loaded from the memory cards into the central tabulator.
    • Two people are watching the central tabulator software/computer at all times.

    In short, even thought these machines are highly vulnerable to tampering, I think having a two-person system supervise both the memory cards and the central tabulator should put most minds at ease.

    You may also want to check out:
    http://www.blackboxvoting.org/

    I hope this helps.

  178. Oh hey by kjzk · · Score: 0

    This is what you do:

    Step 1: Kill yourself.

    And that's it!