Flagship Studios Going Under

Lunatrik writes "In a not entirely unexpected turn of events, Flagship Studios, the producers of the bug-ridden (at release!) game Hellgate: London is going under, as reported by multiple sources. In addition, many current subscribers to the game are finding themselves unable to cancel their subscriptions due to 'technical errors.'"

Comments

Blizzard

[negRo_slim]

I'm failing to see what one would subscribe to in a game such as that?

Re:Blizzard

[Bieeanda]

The chance to see Bill Roeper's eyes light up with little cartoon dollar signs, pretty much.

Re:Blizzard

[KDR_11k]

They were releasing a lot of subscriber-only content so one who subscribes gets a crapton of new features. No idea if it's worth it, I didn't subscribe (and didn't play online as offline play had no lag).

Re:Blizzard

[Jellybob]

More accurate would be to say they were going to release subscriber-only content - the last time I looked they'd so far released a new area to play in.

Oh, and you got a chest to keep stuff in for your other characters.

As far as I can tell, that is the sum total of what you get for subscribing to the game. I can't say I'm surprised by them not being able to sustain the business model, but I'll be sad to see them go.

Re:Blizzard

[KDR_11k]

Weren't there two sets of subscriber-only updates, the two Chronicles things? Or was the second not released?

Re:Blizzard

[negRo_slim]

So they sell you the game, then charge you extra for add ons... In a subscription based format. Wow. Did someone tell them the PC market doesn't work that way? And where on earth did these guys get the idea we needed another Diablo clone?.. Oh my bad, I meant to say another "spiritual successor".

Hah, good riddance is all I can say, may be the Blizzard North guys can get on with the next 18 Wheels of Steel game.

Re:Blizzard

[negRo_slim]

Let me clarify I should of said the North American PC market doesn't work that way.

Re:Blizzard

[KDR_11k]

It's not only add-ons, it's also some multiplayer features like being able to lead a guild and having a bigger stash.

Re:Blizzard

[Inglix the Mad]

Yeah, I agree. I think they were trying to do something similar to consoles, but with a monthly fee. Remember you could buy stuff for Oblivion? separately online for the X360.

Personally, at that point, I'd rather pay Blizzard for a persistent world if I was going to do an MMO. At least they release a product that WORKS.

Another problem was that they had crap drop that ONLY a subscriber could use to any player. They probably saw it as an incentive to get an account, and really it was just an irritant according to one of my friends. They also lacked a way to sell stuff AFK (i.e. a market or auction house) unless you sold it to NPC's.

According to my friend, a LOT of problems with Hellgate. I didn't play it myself though.

Re:Blizzard

[Anonymous Coward]

You do realize these were all Blizzard guys right? They were Blizzard North, they created Diablo, which is why they created what amounted to a Diablo clone. Too bad it was terrible. Ironlore did a much better job with Titan Quest, which makes me laugh.

Canceled Cancellations Not New

[Bieeanda]

People have had trouble canceling their accounts since HGL launched, for god's sake. Half the system thinks that they've canceled, but the charge still goes through to the credit card... and of course, since they're supposedly not subscribed, they can't cancel a second time.

Re:Canceled Cancellations Not New

[zippthorne]

Well.. send a copy of whatever info you get along to your credit card company, along with the most important piece of information: Your desire for them not to accept any more charges from the company. Make it the CC company's problem, and see how quickly it gets resolved.

I'm pretty sure the CC companies would take you at your word, ANYWAY, but a lil' proof doesn't hurt.

what next?

[crazybit]

some massive amount of lawsuits?

if the game servers shut down completely do players/customers have the rights for at least getting their money back?

Re:what next?

[Bieeanda]

Chances are that there's wording in the subscription contract that negates any 'right' to accessibility or usability. There was a class-action suit against Ultima Online ten years ago, over what amounted to lag, and it's been standard boilerplate since.

Also, while Flagship and Ping0 are going the way of the dodo, the Hellgate and Mythos IP are owned lock, stock and barrel by two other companies. Chances are that HGL will continue to limp along for a while, but the likelihood of serious patching and new content is low.

Re:what next?

[Jellybob]

the likelihood of serious patching and new content is low

Business as usual then?

Re:what next?

[King Of Flan]

I doubt there is anything the customers can do because there is a single player element to the game, which is exactly the same as multiplayer. They will say that you still have all the game content.

Re:what next?

[Tavor]

Business as usual then?

Yeah, especially considering HGL will most likely be owned by EA. I can think of many, many games that EA has just abandoned, not releasing any more patches or bug fixes despite a solid userbase and cash income.

Re:what next?

[lgw]

Well, this gives a whole new meaning to "lifetime subscription"! Well, my interest gave out before Flagship did, so I'm not bemoaning the loss.

Another way to cancel.

[www.sorehands.com]

Since they won't let you cancel, then call your credit card company and cancel with the credit card company.

Re:Another way to cancel.

[Anonymous Coward]

New York, NY, July 22nd, 2008

In a surprise move, AOL announced today that it has successfully completed acquisition of Flagship Studios. Citing 'synergistic' account-cancellation policies in both companies, an AOL spokesperson verified that customer support services will be switched over immediately in order to preserve the customer base.

When questioned about future support for the Hellgate: London online game, or the takeover of any other facet of the business, the spokesperson replied, "Huh?"

###

Re:Another way to cancel.

[Anpheus]

Are you sure that spokesperson wasn't one of the customer service representatives?

Re:Another way to cancel.

[diopter72]

Mod the parent post up so people who are in this mess can see it. In addition, after calling the credit card company, you can also ask to subsequently block all charges from said source (i.e., Flagship Studio or whatever you would see in your billing statement). I don't know if all CC companies do this, but this kind of feature is usually put in place for the repeated bogus/spam charges where you get billed for something bogus, and you keep getting billed for it once a month. This way you don't have to call every month.

Re:Another way to cancel.

[ILuvRamen]

if your product wasn't delivered/provided as promised, you can fill out a chargeback form with your credit card company. A couple dozen of those from different people and the credit card company will look into what happened, see they're all valid, and immediately approve all chargebacks against that company. Cancelling your card is a lot more of a pain, though a good way for the retention department to increase your credit limit lol.

Re:Another way to cancel.

[KDR_11k]

Doesn't too much of that get the account of the company making the charges locked?

Re:Another way to cancel.

[Jellybob]

Yes. There are strict standards that you have to adhere to if you want to process credit cards, and if you breach them then the company will either fine you, or in extreme situations revoke your rights to process credit cards.

PCI-DSS on Wikipedia

Re:Another way to cancel.

[LordVader717]

Depending on where you live and your local laws, this could be a bad idea. At least try and wait a few days to see what happens on the cancellation problems, unless it's really imprtant to get it one by a certain date.
Because you have entered a cotract for a service, and depending on the conditions you might still owe them money. So you could end up with a bill for the subscription plus extra charges for delaying the payment etc.

Re:Another way to cancel.

[dookiesan]

This happened to me, and I'm posting to shame the company that did it. Fandango.com gave my credit card info to ReservationRewards which has siphoned $50 from me over the last 5 months.

ReservationRewards are theiving scumbags, but some people actually trust a bigger name site like Fandango.

Re:Another way to cancel.

[ILuvRamen]

Well yes and no the way you said it. Stupid turkish credit card scammers got the whole payment system for SRO shut down like very other week cuz they had so many chargebacks. The same happened with too many stolen paypal accounts being paid to the same company (SRO's company) But basically it just shut down pending investigation after hitting the limit, they told them to be more careful and try to stop it, and then re-enabled their credit card/paypal system.

Re:Another way to cancel.

[OrangeTide]

Well that sucks. I just signed up for 2 subscriptions Friday. So it sounds like I'm going to have to go through some headaches to cancel now.

Re:Another way to cancel.

[Anonymous Coward]

No they didn't, you clicked on the link and agreed to it, that's how it works.

Shame on you for not reading what you agreed to. It's all there.

Re:Another way to cancel.

[dookiesan]

http://consumerist.com/5008441/watch-for-baloney-reservation-rewards-charges-on-your-credit-card

http://www.consumerwebwatch.org/dynamic/ecommerce-investigation-webloyalty.cfm

http://adam.rosi-kessel.org/weblog/2004/12/24/webloyalty_aka_wli_reservations_is_a_scam

http://ask.metafilter.com/76535/Scammed-by-WLI-Reservation-Rewards

http://www.ripoffreport.com/searchresults.asp?q1=ALL&q4=&q6=&q3=&q2=&q7=&searchtype=0&submit2=Search!&q5=WLI

Re:interesting

[KDR_11k]

It has nothing to do with WoW, it's more like Diablo with guns (or Serious Sam with RPG stats and equipment, if you prefer that).

I wonder about tie-ins

[Creedo]

That's too bad. I don't play the game, but I did pick up the trade paperback of the comic series and the first two novels. I rather enjoyed them, despite a serious lack of editing on the second novel. Any news on whether the last book is still coming out, at least?

Re:I wonder about tie-ins

[Chaos Incarnate]

It's currently slated as a September release, meaning it'll start showing up late August; while it's probably technically possible to kill it at this point, since S&S should already be printing the books I don't think they'd do so without putting up a fuss.

Fight over IP

[Anonymous Coward]

If you RTFA you'll see more signs of an overpopulation of lawyers in our society.

"No this is our IP"
"No its ours! You'll be hearing from our lawyers"
"Rabble rabble rabble"

Sigh @ our species

Re:interesting

[X0563511]

<insert game> sucks compared to <insert game>.

I might say the same about WoW.

A Good Thing

[Naelok]

This is not really surprising. I was in the game's beta and there was really nothing memorable about the thing. Just Diablo 2 in 3d with a ridiculous modern setting and crummy level design (if you've seen one office building full of demons, believe me... you've seen them all). I'm glad to see that that sort of mediocrity hasn't been rewarded.

Re:A Good Thing

[KDR_11k]

The run and gun gameplay was different to Diablo. Yeah, the overall design was very close to Diablo but playing it as an if-it-moves-shoot-it type FPS worked pretty well for me.

Re:A Good Thing

[BJH]

The beta pretty much sucked, but the game's been in good shape since the Stonehenge expansion came out.
A lot of people were looking forward to the 2.0 patch release, so I hope whatever deal Flagship works out covers it...

Re:A Good Thing

[arth1]

This is not really surprising. I was in the game's beta and there was really nothing memorable about the thing. Just Diablo 2 in 3d [...]

You do realize that "Just Diablo 2 in 3D" would have half of slashdot's readers drooling uncontrollably?
Unfortunately, Hellgate: London was no such thing. It was more of a Daikatana with multiplayer.

Re:A Good Thing

[ildon]

Daikatana HAD multiplayer.

Re:A Good Thing

[negRo_slim]

Daikatana HAD multiplayer.

Don't tell me you were one of the 200,000 that bought that coaster? :(

Re:A Good Thing

[OrangeTide]

Hellgate was exactly the sort of game I like. I guess my tastes are not popular enough to matter these days. I'm sick of WoW shit.

Re:A Good Thing

[Katalyst23]

I liked the gameplay a lot, but I agree with the GP - I found the level design very monotonous - lots of grey, and not much to differentiate one area from another - mostly just streets, underground areas, and parks, which all looked the same as one another. I think this really detracted from the game play after you got past the initial thrill of "BWAHAHA I'M PWNING DEMONS IN THE FACE WITH A SNIPER RIFLE". I liked the modern setting though.

Diablo 2 got monotonous within the acts at times ("Ok, I am tired of being in the !@#$ing jungle now..") but there was enough scene change between acts that I didn't mind so much.

Re:A Good Thing

[KDR_11k]

That and each act in Diablo 2 had different areas with different themes so there was plenty of variety. I agree that HGL really needed more environments, new sets are introduced too rarely and many areas just look alike.

Re:A Good Thing

[thrash242]

There pretty much is a Diablo 2 in 3D. It's called Titan Quest. It's a blatant Diablo clone, but it improves the core gameplay in just enough ways to make it interesting.

Re:A Good Thing

[thrash242]

I liked it also and I'm kind of sad to see Flagship go. I'm not buying Diablo 3, as it looks to be way too much like WoW, which I loathe. None of the people who actually created Diablo (a separate company bought by Blizzard) work for Blizzard anymore. Diablo 1 and 2 were the only Blizzard games I liked at all. The *craft series is a joke, IMO.

Re:A Good Thing

[Anonymous Coward]

No, Titan Quest does everything right that D2 did wrong and keeps all the good stuff to boot. The few things they messed up on were corrected in the expansion, which also added a ton of great stuff. The only thing Titan Quest doesn't have going for it is the lack of secure servers.

Re:A Good Thing

[thrash242]

What do you mean "No"? That's pretty much what I said. It's a Diablo 2 clone and doesn't attempt to hide the fact, but it improves on the core mechanics, thus making it a great game. My saying it's a clone doesn't mean it's a bad game, because it improves upon what Diablo 2 did enough to make it worthwhile. The dual-class system, for instance is a great addition.

I agree about the lack of secure servers, but they've gone out of business also, so I guess it wouldn't matter anyway, since they'd probably be down now. I mainly play with people I know who I know don't cheat.

My other problem with the game is the lack of randomization of the maps. This was a major part of Diablo (which it inherited from the roguelikes that inspired it). I find it much more interesting when the world is different every time. The world was very nice-looking, though, and this doesn't detract from the game too much.

Your word doesn't matter

[Sycraft-fu]

They don't have a choice. Consumer protection on credit cards is very strong. If you say "I'm not paying this" then you don't. The bank blocks the charge and that's that. If they company wants your money, they have to pursue you through other means. It's different with a debit card, since then the bank has already given the money to the company, so it is then somewhat discretionary on their part. However in the case of a credit card you are just disputing that you owe any money.

Re:Your word doesn't matter

[philspear]

So not only can I spend money I don't have, I can also tell the bank that I didn't actually spend it when I did?!?! Credit cards are miracles!

Re:Your word doesn't matter

[Anonymous Coward]

Your sarcasm is misplaced. Disputing a credit card charge is the same as simply not paying. It is a matter of bargaining power. As long as you have the money, the company has to prove that you owe them to get the money. If the company already has the money, you have to prove that you didn't owe them to get it back.

Re:Your word doesn't matter

[spvo]

It isn't quite that simple. If you dispute a charge, then the merchant can still challenge it. The burden of proof, however, is on the merchant and they must show evidence of the sale. Something as simple as a signed credit slip will work. And, assuming they have that, then the credit card company will have to pay the merchant and will expect you to repay them.

Now, if for whatever reason, the credit card company does not pay the merchant then the merchant is still free to try to collect the debt through other means.

Re:Your word doesn't matter

[MBraynard]

It's not different with a debit card. The same rules and protections (from Visa) apply.

Re:Your word doesn't matter

[Tim C]

It's different with a debit card, since then the bank has already given the money to the company, so it is then somewhat discretionary on their part.

While it can be harder to get the money back, you can definitely stop them from taking any more of your money in the future. Note however that the last time I had to do that sort of thing, my bank (Abbey in the UK) had to issue me a new debit card to stop the payments, they couldn't (or wouldn't) simply refuse them. That was a hassle, but it worked.

Re:Your word doesn't matter

[ShakaUVM]

>>While it can be harder to get the money back, you can definitely stop them from taking any more of your money in the future.

Credit Card companies that I talked to in the past (when an MMORPG refused to unsubscribe me, a similar situation to the HGL issue here), said they couldn't block future purchases from the company, but that I'd have to dispute each one.

Unfortunately:
>>Note however that the last time I had to do that sort of thing, my bank (Abbey in the UK) had to issue me a new debit card to stop the payments, they couldn't (or wouldn't) simply refuse them. ...that is the only solution when you get into a situation like that.

Re:Your word doesn't matter

[Anonymous Coward]

Not entirely true. A debit card only guarantees the money to the selling company, but it gets deducted from your account only after the end of the month, and even then it takes a further month (or more, depending on the timeframe customers have to object to the payment) until the money reaches the seller. So even with debit cards you have full protection and you get your money refunded immediately and without question during the objection period.

Not a huge suprise

[Foo2rama]

Been looking for this for awhile, Hellgate has been pretty much a flop. The lucrative SE Asia market never launched and rumors of a bad deal cut with those distributors allowed them to not pay a dime untill the game was what they wanted. Since the game has issues it was never launched, there goes about 15 million in rev that they had planned on.

In other news no one in the western market can understand their pricing model...

I really wanted to like this game I spent 4 hours trying to like this game... They missed a few small tweaks in UI could have made the game alot better... At least we have the real Diablo III soon.

Re:Not a huge suprise

[Khyber]

"The lucrative SE Asia market never launched"

That's because the SE Asia market has been cornered by a FREE GAME, Maiet's "Gunz: The Duel"

Re:Not a huge suprise

[Mongoose Disciple]

At least we have the real Diablo III soon.

For large values of soon?

Christmas 2010 seems optimistic -- and if it doesn't, you haven't been paying attention to the speed of Blizzard's releases in the past.

Fuck EA

[BJH]

1) Find a promising unreleased property
2) Get your fingers in the pie via the back door by working a deal with one of the existing publishers
3) Force an early release to get the cash from package sales
4) PROFIT!
5) Refuse to bail out the developers when they're swamped with bug reports
6) Walk away laughing with money in your pocket

Looks like WAR is their next target...

Re:Fuck EA

[FishAdmin]

2) Get your fingers in the pie via the back door by working a deal with one of the existing publishers

Isn't anyone else disturbed by that image? Brrrrr.

Re:Fuck EA

[h3i]

I'd like to point out that well over 9000 people told them so.

Sounds like a job for Captain Chargeback...

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

"Nice clusterfuck you got goin' there. Be a pity if the rats all filed chargebacks before they left the ship..."

Reminds me of...

[T3Tech]

AOL... didn't they have an issue with subscribers not being able to cancel their 'subscription' ... in most cases for several months?
hmmm....
1)User/customer requests to cancel account
2)ignore their request as long as possible
3)Profit!!!
4)Deal with credit card dispute - haggle for a couple months to let the interest accrue
5)refund customer most of the disputed amount
6)Profit!!!

Re:Reminds me of...

[Anonymous Coward]

6)Profit!!!

No, revenue. Screaming "Profit!!!" implies that you think they'd make enough money from this scheme to pay all their overhead and still have enough left over to make the whole thing worthwhile. I doubt it.

Re:interesting

[Anonymous Coward]

insert game sucks compared to insert game.

I might say the same about WoW.

• WoW sucks compared to flamethrowing your cat.
• WoW sucks compared to flamethrowing your ex-girlfriend's cat.
• WoW sucks compared to flamethrowing Richard Stallman's beard.
• WoW sucks compared to playing Bait the KDE Developer: 'OMG! Why did you call that a full release?!'
• WoW sucks compared to Goatse Online - Revenge of the Receiver.
• WoW sucks compared to seeing how many AC Slashdot trolls you can post in one night (bonus points for non-sensical first posts!).
• WoW sucks compared to a Jolly Good Wank(tm).

Re:Dupe

[philspear]

Is this a metaphor for Hellgate? The first post is bug-ridden and then you're going to "go under?"

AH wow

[G00F]

Now everyone who bought the game can not play multi-player (the only reason most people buy games now days)

Re:AH wow

[negRo_slim]

Now everyone who bought the game can not play multi-player (the only reason most people buy games now days)

Granted I play MMO's which is decidedly multiplayer. Any other game, console or PC I generally stick to single player or multiplayer over the LAN. It didn't have to be this way, I had a blast playing on Xbox Live! The first 6 months... Then the players got younger... They got much better... and they got much, much, much more obscene, vulgar and racist. Nowadays if I do any online multiplayer it's generally late at night or earlier in the day when I can play with the brits or aussies. Much nicer crowd.

Re:AH wow

[Kell Bengal]

I dispute that - of the gamers I know, only two have a serious multiplayer fetish. Everyone else plays single player games all the way through, then dabbles in the multiplayer at our monthly lan once or twice and then never picks up the title again. We have all been waiting for fresh multiplayer that will knock our socks off, but after four years of nothing new we've burned out on multiplayer. We've done it all before. I can't speak for my friends, but even single player games are something of a fugue for me. Maybe we're just to old for this stuff?

Their other games?

[trillex]

What about their other game, Mythos?

Re:Their other games?

[Ravadill]

A second Korean company (that was also the Korean distributor for Hellgate) that they also owe money has taken ownership of all the rights/code to Mythos.

Re:Their other games?

[Anonymous Coward]

I hope that they continue development. I rather enjoy Mythos.

In fact, I've wondered why no one at Flagship ever said, "You know what? Maybe we need to shift development dollars and kick this one out the door first?"

Re:Their other games?

[iMOSET]

Gah, if it is being developed by Koreans the game is just gauranteed to fail miserably. Whats the bet they will hog all of that hard work and onl distribute to asians? Damn them! I was looking forward to Mythos...

Hee hee hee

[iminplaya]

Just wait till something like this happens with Microsoft's upcoming subscription model for Office, and you get locked out of your documents. Fun times ahead. Be sure to save in ODF...

Re:Hee hee hee

[negRo_slim]

Just wait till something like this happens with Microsoft's upcoming subscription model for Office, and you get locked out of your documents. Fun times ahead. Be sure to save in ODF...

This has actually already happened at least twice. I was going over some old PC Gamers while on the jon and sure enough there was an article about a subscription based gaming company. More akin to Steam then to Gametap. Anyways they went under, but the CEO or what not had a backup plan and simply released some code that would allow the games to be patched to run without a central sever... Ya know I'm sure that could get you into a legal mess with the wrong developers, I never heard more on that ill-fated company... But Microsoft I'm sure will have a backup plan. Probably akin to the Canadian Invasion US military planners thought up. Never gonna need it, but just in case....

Good hellgate sucked...

[blahplusplus]

Flagship studios was so full of themselves. I knew hellgate london would flop as soon as I saw the title. It made no sense and the lack of 2d isometric (3d rendered) view I knew would kill this game with the variety of easy to play MMO's, and the fact that Hellgate is an action game. The action just doesn't feel the same in 3D, the feel of the game is way off and nowhere near as fun as say diablo 2, I'm sure many diablo fans were hoping it would be good and had the same issues. Doing a 3D action game like diablo takes talent and hellgate didn't have anywhere near enough. The feel of the universe and the art direction was way too MMO'ish, like a cheap knockoff of a real MMO in which you can do more and get more for your money.

Re:Good hellgate sucked...

[thrash242]

You're saying the people who created Diablo don't have enough talent to make a 3D Diablo?

You realize most of the people that made Diablo made Hellgate?

Re:Good hellgate sucked...

[blahplusplus]

They have talent and making video games, but this does not mean they have talent in knowing what elements of their past games made it a success. This was obvious by the theme they chose and the format (3d, 3rdperson fps view type action).

I played hellgate and I wanted to like it but I couldn't get into it because the art direction and the viewing angles were not right for that kind of game. Diablo worked because of it's isometric style, hence blizzards sane choice of using it again in Diablo 3, the hellgate london guys while they have great skills at making game elements, doesn't mean they know how to put those elements together into something their customers will like, and it was obviou with the closure they didn't really grasp what they were doing.

Re:Good hellgate sucked...

[thrash242]

I think they were trying not to copy their formula too closely, since they weren't making a Diablo game (since they didn't own the IP, even though they created it).

The gameplay works fine, IMO. It's a first/third person game with Diablo-like RPG mechanics. I see no reason why an isometric view is necessarily better--it's just what you're used to.

The problems with the game, IMO, are that the subscription model didn't really offer much worthwhile and that the theme was somewhat bland. The mechanics seem forced into a setting in which they didn't really fit.

Re:Good hellgate sucked...

[christ, jesus H]

Its funny you say Hellgate felt like; "like a cheap knockoff of a real MMO in which you can do more and get more for your money."

Thats the way Diablo2 always felt to me too LOL.

Re:Good hellgate sucked...

[blahplusplus]

"Thats the way Diablo2 always felt to me too LOL."

Except diablo 2 did not play like an MMO at all, it was a real time action game. Enormous difference.

Whoa

[pdusen]

I'm surprised at the phrase "many subscribers". Hellgate London was god-awful, and overhyped to death.

diablo 3 ... soon?

[Anonymous Coward]

This is blizzard we're waiting on. 'soon' isn't in their vocabulary.

Re:diablo 3 ... soon?

[PIBM]

Soon(tm) is, as you just saw, one of their trademark, with it`s own definition.

Obligatory Penny Arcade reference

[denzacar]

Disparities...

Rumours and Hear-say

[Anonymous Coward]

"Hello,
I would like to respond to some of the recent coverage that Flagship Studios has received as a result of the publication of Guy Somberg's blog.

Everyone has good days and bad days. Guy was having a bad day. It was his friend's last day of internship and he found out another friend was thinking of leaving. He vented, exaggerated, and posted information that was inaccurate.

We will be the first to admit that Hellgate: London did launch with some problems. The game would certainly have benefited from a couple more months in the oven, but as an independent developer we didn't have the ability to delay our ship date. It can be difficult to stand by and see something that you put your heart and soul into, week in and week out, get the initial reception Hellgate got. It can put a strain on any developer and some days it can get to you. Thankfully, after some very hard work by all the people here, including Guy, the game is much better now and we believe in the future of Hellgate.

Both our studios are currently fully staffed, with our San Francisco studio working on ongoing content for Hellgate: London and our Seattle studio working on our free-to-play MMORPG, Mythos, which should go into open beta within the next couple months. In total, we have over 100 employees working for both studios. As is typical in the industry, after a game is released some people naturally want to work on something else and they leave the company to do so. But in total we have had less than 10% turn-over and have rehired for all needed positions.

All our Directors and Founders are still working at Flagship, and all of them are working on Hellgate: London or Mythos. The team size for Hellgate is as big now as when we shipped. We are putting all of our efforts into these projects and I think it will show in the upcoming Hellgate Abyss Chronicles.

Sincerely,
David Brevik
CVO
Flagship Studios"

Re:Rumours and Hear-say

[hantak]

That posting was in response to a blog posting by a HGL programmer, Guy Somberg, from early June:

http://hellgate.incgamers.com/n/6097/fss-programmer-speaks-out

Re:Rumours and Hear-say

[Ciarang]

That's an interesting way to make sure no sane employer ever touches you with a bargepole.

Bug-ridden, unimaginative game.

[MaWeiTao]

Flagship Studios deserves going under for releasing this game. The day I heard of this game's existence, back when it was in development, I expect it to be crap. The theme was contrived and uninspired and it continued the same old theme of too many contemporary games with the dark and dreary environments. It's like they use that to obscure their lack of imagination.

Interestingly, I did actually get this game for $20 a couple of weeks ago out of curiosity. It turned out certain aspects of gameplay were entertaining but the game overall was a big disappointment.

The most striking thing was how closely the developers copied Diablo. It really shows a lack of imagination, and that is reflected in the overall feel of the game. The monsters are all completely uninspired and the same generic crap found in a dozen other games with hell spawn. The randomized environments made for a game that got tedious quickly. You'd think that having only to build templates instead of complete environments they would have offered a far larger variety of locations.

Then there were the bugs. Performance was worse in DirectX 10 than it was in DX9, however in DX9 there were all kinds of issues. The game would hang loading environments, in bases it would consistently fail to load NPC or item models. It's ridiculous that after all these time these kinds of issues still exist.

The biggest insult of all was the subscription-based model. People were paying $10 a month for essentially nothing. If the people at Flagship Studios had any shred of intelligence they would have adopted a model similar to the one used in Guild Wars.

Well, with the company going under it would be nice if they gave up that additional content as a free download.

Re:Bug-ridden, unimaginative game.

[Karma Bandit]

The most striking thing was how closely the developers copied Diablo. It really shows a lack of imagination, and that is reflected in the overall feel of the game.

You do realize that these were the guys that originally developed diablo? I think you can't fault them for copying their own game after leaving a company that they thought was taking their game in the wrong direction.

Re:Bug-ridden, unimaginative game.

[DerWulf]

Ironic considering that D3 will probably make Blizzard billions :)

Re:Bug-ridden, unimaginative game.

[lgw]

The thing is, the copied the wrong parts of Diablo. Copying art or story elements would have been cool, but copying elements like town portals and ID scrolls in a Sci-Fi shooter just didn't make a lot of sense. You'd think these guys would at least get the "loot" mechanic right, but the model they chose, where most items are crap but still you need to salvage or sell everything that drops, felt really out of place and broke immersion.

In short, they didn't copy what made Diablo fun, but instead copied a bunch of mechanics that were just silly in the new game.

Re:Bug-ridden, unimaginative game.

[mjwx]

Performance was worse in DirectX 10 than it was in DX9,

This is mainly due to the fact that Direct X 10 only runs under Vista. I have XP and Vista running side by side on my gaming PC (Athlon X2 6000+, 2 GB RAM, Geforce 8800GTS 640 MB, not slow by any stretch of the imagination) and am yet to get any game running faster in Vista (DX 9 or 10) then it does in XP. In most cases it runs faster under Wine in Ubuntu than it does under Vista (When I get the game working in Wine).

Re:Bug-ridden, unimaginative game.

[thrash242]

Performance of Vista vs XP is not the point. Performance in Hellgate was worse in DX10 than in DX9. In order to compare the two, you have to be running Vista in the first place. Comparing DX10 on one OS and DX9 on another is not a valid comparison.

Re:Bug-ridden, unimaginative game.

[mjwx]

As an avid gamer I've tested vista thoroughly,

DX10 performs worse than DX9 in vista in all the games I've played, including ones written from the ground up for DX10. Of course Microsoft pundits will continue to say that there is no game truly written for DX10 but no game developer is willing to alienate most of the gaming market by developing only for DX10 and Vista (except possibly for Microsoft but even they are yet to actually do it).

Vista is emphatically not a gaming platform.

Re:Bug-ridden, unimaginative game.

[thrash242]

It is the OS on my only gaming machine and it works just fine. I can play every game except Crysis maxed out (and no one can run Crysis maxed out yet, which is by design).

Yes, I think you're right about games not really being designed for DX10 from the ground up, and thus not running as well as DX9. Over time, more and more games will use DX10 and eventually, they will probably require it. But until then, Vista still plays games in DX9 just fine and the recent benchmarks I've read have shown that Vista performance is basically the same as XP performance now (because better drivers, OS updates, etc).

I'm far from a Microsoft fanboy, but as far as Windows OSes go, Vista does not deserve the bad rep it gets.

Re:interesting

[kirbysuperstar]

Both of you go to Digg, without any dinner.

Flagship: Not gone to hell yet?

[Soldarith]

http://forums.hellgatelondon.com/showthread.php?t=101425
"
Official Statement on Recent News (06/11/08)
Hello,
I would like to respond to some of the recent coverage that Flagship Studios has received as a result of the publication of Guy Somberg's blog.

Everyone has good days and bad days. Guy was having a bad day. It was his friend's last day of internship and he found out another friend was thinking of leaving. He vented, exaggerated, and posted information that was inaccurate.

We will be the first to admit that Hellgate: London did launch with some problems. The game would certainly have benefited from a couple more months in the oven, but as an independent developer we didn't have the ability to delay our ship date. It can be difficult to stand by and see something that you put your heart and soul into, week in and week out, get the initial reception Hellgate got. It can put a strain on any developer and some days it can get to you. Thankfully, after some very hard work by all the people here, including Guy, the game is much better now and we believe in the future of Hellgate.

Both our studios are currently fully staffed, with our San Francisco studio working on ongoing content for Hellgate: London and our Seattle studio working on our free-to-play MMORPG, Mythos, which should go into open beta within the next couple months. In total, we have over 100 employees working for both studios. As is typical in the industry, after a game is released some people naturally want to work on something else and they leave the company to do so. But in total we have had less than 10% turn-over and have rehired for all needed positions.

All our Directors and Founders are still working at Flagship, and all of them are working on Hellgate: London or Mythos. The team size for Hellgate is as big now as when we shipped. We are putting all of our efforts into these projects and I think it will show in the upcoming Hellgate Abyss Chronicles.

Sincerely,
David Brevik
CVO
Flagship Studios "

no i wont. i dont wanna.

[unity100]

make me !

Re:no i wont. i dont wanna.

[kirbysuperstar]

Do it or I'll get the belt. Do you want the belt? Do you?

tiggs again....

[jt418-93]

wow, she was tied up with the motor city online debacle. talk about picking winner jobs...

Re:tiggs again....

[anser]

wow, she was tied up with the motor city online debacle. talk about picking winner jobs...

...not to mention the Star Wars Galaxies debacle!

Everybody seems to love her, but the next game I see her crunchy ketchup dragon .sig on, I think I'll go month-by-month on the sub :)

Re:interesting

[bigstrat2003]

If you had fun, what's the problem? I've been playing WoW for 3 years now... I don't regret it at all, because I've had fun. If you weren't having fun, well, then you're the fool for not quitting the game when it stopped being fun for you.

Re:Dupe

[Anonymous Coward]

Must be brutal raising money to build any new game and then having to deal with the pressure to get it out on time and fend off all the message board rantaholics who just enjoy throwing bombs for sport.

I wish these guys and all the folks out there making quality games good luck.

-CR
PeakeUSA.com
The Peake Pals (http://peakeusa.ning.com)

Re:interesting

[unity100]

not quite.

i didnt have much fun. it has a parabolic, speedily diminishing return arranged fun-time function. the worst part is, they reset you to zero with each expansion.

and you cant just quit online games like that. you generally have a group or a guild. they move into the game you are in, or you get to be a participant of a community. there are responsibilities and goodwill. but still, i quit.

Re:interesting

[EvilIdler]

Bullshit. You can always quit. If you can't, you're addicted, and need help :)

I've quite many MMOs many times!

This sucks...

[Anonymous Coward]

I bought this game and paid to be a founder. I'm more than a little upset about this turn of events but I will still play on in single player if need be. The game is good, and I really enjoy it. Then again I missed the Diablo II boat so I guess this *IS* my first real experience with it.

I wish they could patch single player to include the same content as multi..

Re:interesting

[unity100]

no you cant. if you are holding responsibilities in a long time guild, you need to ensure that your responsibility position will be fulfilled when you quit that game.

youll see !

[unity100]

i know the number of social services !! fookyuuuu

Re:youll see !

[PlusFiveTroll]

Not if I call them first... here take the little shit.

Flagshipped.com

[Flagshipped]

Looks like possible dark days ahead for Hellgate: London players. Though nothing is certain until the official word and IP ownership is decided if a legal battle ends up coming into play. http://www.flagshipped.com/

Re:Flagshipped.com

[lgw]

If the Koren distribter did end up with the IP and a committment to take up development, that could be great news. At the least they'd keep the servers up, and they'd hardly deliver worse content than we've had so far. It looks like they don't own the Hellgate IP right now, however. Perhaps they've made a back-door deal with the lender who has the Hellgate IP as collateral? If EA's claims of a million subscribers are legitimate, the lender is going to be looking to sell the IP before those subscribers evaporate (which will no doubt begin the moment the unsubscribe "bug" is fixed).

Re:interesting

[DerWulf]

you might but you'll probably be wrong. Criticisms of WoW usually boil down to questioning the MMORPG formula (besides the point) or a perceived lack of attention to your most favorite activity in the game (PvP v PvE etc). The way blizzard treats it's customers, the art in WoW, the wealth of content, the game mechanics and the technical side of client and server are largely impeccable. Seriously, reading the flagshipped.com site or having a look at AoC really reminded me what an outstanding game WoW is and there really is no game in the genre that plays in the same league as WoW.

Purchase and Support Woes

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, I dont know about about oneelse but I swear I've never had such a bad experience with a games company for support.
Basically I purchased this game from play.com but it wouldnt accept my cd key, days later, and many minutes (try about another $16 worth) of calls to the support I was informed that my cd key has 'expired'
Since when is a brandnew game suppose to expire?
They promised that they would activate the account (which they never did)
I tried a few times to log on to multiplayer - then just gave up.

Amazingly terrible experience.
They deserve to go under - "and all who sail in her"

Re:interesting

[Anonymous Coward]

I went with "Funny". There should be a "Sad" option, though.

Re:interesting

[bigstrat2003]

Not really. It's not like you'll get sued for leaving, but it IS considered rude (and rightfully so) to just up and leave if the group depends upon you. It's like the president of some hobby club quitting without any warning. No, the world isn't going to come to an end, and no one will really be hurt, but it would've been a lot nicer to the rest of the club if their president had worked out some sort of smooth transition, rather than leaving everything in disarray, and impeding everyone's fun.

Re:interesting

[Anonymous Coward]

WoW sucks compared unsuccessfully defending yourself in court and eventually leading the police to your wife's body for the lesser charge of manslaughter.

Too soon.

Re:interesting

[negRo_slim]

Und dats why its da top dogg :)

Re:interesting

[melikamp]

WoW is the very definition of a Jolly Good Wank(tm). Trust me, I wanked it all the way to 70.

Re:FSS

[Deadfyre_Deadsoul]

Its FSS's own fault really. If they would have went out of their way not to dumb down the game since beta, they might have made it someplace. But every patch they went out of their way to remove stuff people liked. Played since beta too. Saw this coming last week though and resigned my guild leader spot on Wednesday.

exactly

[unity100]

things get complicated much more if that guild you are member of is a long time guild which hops from game to game with the same people, ie the people you played the last 2-3 games with.

Re:interesting

[negRo_slim]

Not really. It's not like you'll get sued for leaving

I think that needs to be put to the test. Sue your guild leader for failed BT runs. I mean you have to repair, and repairing takes gold and gold takes time so you would be out of something tangible. You could claim mental angiush and suffering, hell sue that brat who called ya a nub in trade for libel... Just a coffee over dose induced thought.

Re:interesting

[Anonymous Coward]

No you don't. Like it or not, but the only position in even the most hardcore of guilds that is somewhat tricky to replace is TS/Vent sponsor. All the other stuff like raid organization? Sorry, but you're as replaceable as a random dps in a 5-man.

Re:interesting

[unity100]

your world view is quite limited. you apparently think the concept 'guild' is what you know in wow. it is not as such. there were guilds before wow, and there are functions that were present before teamspeak/ventrilo or raid duties or other shit wow brought to prominence.

ours is a democratic guild in which many properties of democratically run legal social groups exist. there are important functions to perform for running of it. guild is going on since 2003 summer in this fashion, and apparently is going to continue into the future.

sorry, but your understanding of gaming and gaming societies are as shallow as wow.

Re:interesting

[Taulin]

Responsibilities fulfilled?! That is supposed to be marked Funny, right? Yes, some players might get annoyed, but dude, it's a game, that you are all paying for. Your post sounds like some CEO talking about a very important employee who is about to leave. As a paying gamer, you hold absolutely not responsibility that you won't be gone tomorrow, and I am pretty sure every gamer understands that....except you.

Hmm.

[arstchnca]

[...] making quality games [...]

I think someone has yet to play Hellgate London.

I mean, equipment wise, the game basically had 3 classes. Not to mention it suffered from Diablo Recolor Syndrome - you're fighting almost exactly the same thing, over and over again, except they change colors and get harder. The thing is, when Diablo did it, there was "Story" and "Plot" to interest the player. For anyone that's even played a little Hellgate, the "story" is revealed to you via what are essentailly world of warcraft style quests.

It's telling enough that I summed up the game in terms of other games.

Re:Hmm.

[Clover_Kicker]

You enjoyed the Diablo plot? Seriously?

Re:interesting

[arstchnca]

It's like the president of some hobby club quitting without any warning.

Yeah, after he realizes that the hobby the club pursues sucks.

Re:Dupe

[hairyfeet]

Here is a word of advice for those game developers out there: QUITE BUILDING FREAKIN' MMOs!!!!! WoW has pretty much got that market locked up tight,so unless you are sure you have a "WoW killer" or are trying for a completely different genre like FPS or RTS,quit building freakin' MMOs. There are a lot of us that would be happy to buy your game if it had a good single player game,and if you want to make some extra money making extra content for the online multiplayer,that's fine too. But so many of these companies see how much WoW makes and get $$$ in their eyes and seem to forget that while those of us that buy single player games own dozens of titles,those that play MMos only buy one or two and tend to stick with them. So unless you can come up with something so totally different than everything else out in MMo land,you are pretty much betting the farm on a long shot. But as always this is my 02c,YMMV

Re:interesting

[mark72005]

/played

instant regret

Re:interesting

[lgw]

As yoiur guild matures, it should be able to handle rapid change of leadership smoothly. It should take no more than a couple of weeks to arrange successor and hand off, and it shouldn't break the guild (even in that game) if you just decide to quit one day.

I say this as a member of a guild that's been around since 1992. We have a pool of "retired" guild leaders, successful in their game and day, who pick the leaders for new games and can fill in when needed. Your guild should be developing that depth by now - never get trpped into being a one-game guild with one leader. Always be building the guild in every game that people enjoy, and recruiting and discovering new leaders.

make a movie?

[thinsoldier]

The Hellgate cut-scenes looked good. If they extended them into a full length feature with better dialogue and a good enough story they could make some cash.

Re:interesting

[unity100]

you still do not get it do you. i, for one, am in a guild that hops from game to game since 2003 with more or less the same entourage i said. these are not random gamers you met in some random game anymore. they are more like friends of the sort.

Re:interesting

[unity100]

we are a democratic guild. there are no leaders. everything gets voted online or in-game according to proper procedure.

Re:interesting

[crawling_chaos]

Do you take turns acting as a sort of Executive Officer for the week? Do all the decisions of that officer have to be ratified at a special bi-weekly meeting-- By a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs,-- But by a two-thirds majority in the case of more major ones?

Re:interesting

[unity100]

i would reply, if you werent trying to make fun of it.

Stop Completely?

[azzuth]

My mileage most certainly varies. While I agree with you on most of you points about those that play MMOs, I disagree that WOW has the market "Locked Up." It may currently hold the most players, but not because it is the best, it is just the most polished and well known. Most MMOs get crappy releases and thus suffer the early abandonment of a large portion of their users. The worst of it is that every game is essentially a graphically updated and stylized Everquest 1 clone. The main gameplay style has not changed in the slightest:
1. Click monster
2. press random skill
3. gain experience.
4. ???
5. Profit (sorry obligatory)

As long as MMOs use a class, level and HP based system they will all fall into this design. Its easy, they keep copy pasting the basic design of everquest because it is easy from a design point of view and it is easy to bring a gamer in from another MMO because they have no new learning curve apart from what are the new buttons I need to click until the new monsters are dead.

What is needed is innovation. Some games have done so in the past and succeeded, Starwars Galaxies introduced a tree based class system allowing for multi-classing and giving the player lots of freedom. Tabula Rosa brought with it first person style combat (But massive bugs.) Age of Conan has directional combat that in theory is great, but in implementation ends up being a more strategic button press system.

What the next MMO needs to get right, is to really spend the time it takes to polish the game as if it were a single player console game they couldn't update. Companies tend to treat MMOs as if they can release unfinished beta products (or alpha sometimes) and use the patcher to slowly bring their product up to par for release. This would not be acceptable in any other field, and shouldn't be acceptable here.

Aside from the fundamental release perspective, the game systems are stagnant and need revamped desperately. But this faces several problems. The basic model of a MMO is to keep players in game as long as possible and subscribed as long as possible. Thus the level system. It is essentially a gridlock with the players getting stronger, and then moving on to monsters that match them in level, thus negating any real strength increase, so all advancement is merely imagined. There is no benefit in killing the weaker monsters, and the new ones are killed the same way as the old just requiring more time to defeat (due to increased HP.)

There are many fixes, but they all require a complete restructuring of the basic MMO design, thus adding a learning curve to getting players to switch, and ultimately increasing your chance for failure. But there is NO other choice. These games will have to adapt or die. Players are leaving them all for exactly the reasons I've outlined. The market may be growing now, but unless the games do more to keep players than just introducing new zones and upping the level cap their playerbase will burn out and have no desire to adopt the latest and greatest MMO.

So long rant at an end, I disagree that they need to stop making MMOs, but I instead think they need to START making MMOs differently.

Re:Stop Completely?

[hairyfeet]

Yes,but I'm sure you have to agree that the market for a single player game with multiplayer ability is MUCH larger. I mean,I personally have at least 2 dozen games,probably more. My nephews probably have about the same number that they bought themselves shopping with their mom at the Wally World. As far as online goes,I haven't bothered since Mech 4,the oldest hasn't found one he cares for,and the youngest plays ONE game: Lunia. That is a BIG difference. And while I agree with you completely that a truly innovative game would probably score a market,too many are simply doing this based on Everquest and WoW. As you said,their are a million clones of those two games out there.

IMHO it would be better overall if the company would come up with a solid offline single player first,then once they have the battle systems and other finer details fully fleshed out and have built up an audience THEN go for the MMO. That way they have the userbase,they have fleshed out the basics, and have created a buzz for their upcoming product. But as crowded as the MMO field is right now,coming up with yet another variation on EQ or WoW is just asking for failure. But as always this is my 02c,YMMV

Re:Stop Completely?

[DerWulf]

Your perspective is a bit gloomy. The MMORPG game system you criticize has a very long history dating back to pen and paper roleplaying game and has nothing to do with the subscription model. Rather it's the other way around, I'd think. Stats and loot are mechanics that are important for a lot of players of these games. Sure, you don't need to kill lower level monsters but through the level increase you become capable of defeating bigger and meaner ones. Mechanically it's just matching increased dps with increased hit points but visually and story wise you are going from wolves to dragons. Man, slaying a dragon! Unfortunately some are so jaded that they cease playing the game and game the mechanics instead. No wonder they get bored! If you try really hard to minimize risk and only look out for rewards you'll soon find everything you do becomes a job. Yes, fights with NPCs should be more tactical, yes, game worlds should be more dynamic and yes inovation beyond RNG need to happen BUT if the players themselves actively resist getting drawn in there is nothing the developer can do.

Re:Stop Completely?

[azzuth]

Stats and loot are mechanics that are important for a lot of players of these games.

I agree with the majority of what you have to say, especially the above. Players will always want stats and loot, and I would never take those away.

If you try really hard to minimize risk and only look out for rewards you'll soon find everything you do becomes a job.

This is where I see it differently. I don't have to try hard to minimize risk, the game dynamics already do that for me. EQ1 had the best death system so far. It was hard, you had to run naked back through mobs to get your corpse. Trains were nightmares. But it was SO much fun. Now in pretty much every MMO you die, respawn and rebuff, maybe repair then run back in. Hell in Age of Conan I use it as a cheap method of travel. There is NO risk to speak of, thus no reason to be careful, thus eventually every game eventually becomes a job despite the actions of the player. I want a system with item decay and death penalties. With no death penalty there is no reason to avoid death except for the minor inconvience of traveling back to where you were, or paying a tiny amount of xp debt. They don't need to debilitate players on death, but they do need to give more incentive to stay alive.

I may be jaded, but I have been playing these games since beta of eq1 and before in the MUDs and BBS games, I see so much potential in the MMO genre, but the field is difficult to get into, and harder to actually get your own design published, though that is my ultimate goal. Eventually, we may all be bitching about how much my game is old and tired and we can't wait till the next @title -killer hits the market. But until that day I'll play what is available and yearn for change.

Re:Stop Completely?

[azzuth]

You have some very good points. The market for single player is MUCH larger as you say, but single player games don't necessarily attract the same people as multiplayer. I personally am not really interested in single player games, with some exceptions. I like the living economy, the in-game competition, the exploration of higher level/dangerous places. So while I agree that the final product would be alot more refined if the studio worked on a single player game first, that doesn't guarantee the game will be a huge success. Take Final Fantasy XI for example. Good game, targeted at consoles. Did wonderfully in Japan, and only so-so in the US despite the HUGE FF following. The game was too geared toward japanese gamers. Very few armor sets, very similar re-colored monsters, but damn did I love their fishing system.

My ideal solution would be similar to what Age Of Conan did where you have the multi-player aspect of the game, then you have the single player story mode where you advance through the initial story at night, alone. Though I would have liked to see some different single player instances that could be played offline. There are alot of ways to do it, but I agree with your basic premise. I think that a single player game that had Massive Multiplayer as a bonus feature (perhaps for a subscription) would be the ideal solution. Or even co-op network multiplayer.

The problem is, there are too many technical hurdles preventing this, such as offline trainers, and botting programs that could level your player offline and ruin the online aspect. You could check for abnormal changes in the character with some sort of daily attribute increase limit so players could only improve so much per day of game play, which I think is a decent solution. It would make real life sense. You can only get so much stronger given a day of working out, so why wouldn't the same apply for in-game attribute changes. Again, I would move myself away from a leveling system and go with something more akin to a stats system where players can get stronger by doing strength type actions and faster by doing thing that require speed etc. So the attributes level as opposed to the player character. I might even throw in attribute stagnation and decay assuming they stop working one of their attributes, so there is a need to keep adventuring to continue being an excellent adventurer.

As I have said, there are many solutions. And I agree that a single player offline option will probably be a must to increase the market share, and frankly I think this is something that should have been thought of by now. My feeling is that it is harder to make the offline content than the copy paste online quest content, so it is never seen as a viable option. Players expect MUCH more from offline games.

Re:Stop Completely?

[hairyfeet]

I think your idea of limiting the amount of power increased per day would really work. And to prevent cheating it could simply check the clock when you went online against the server clock and your max couldn't be more than the maximum daily amount since you last played. But having a solid single player would allow them to not only build up a fanbase for the product and generate buzz,but it would give them something to sell to all those who don't have broadband. Folks seem to forget there are still tons of places in the US where you simply can't get broadband,period.

And while the demographics for MMO are different,like you said,by having even a small MMO component to start with that you can carry your single player into you could generate cash(I personally think the Korean micro payments style is the way to go over subscriptions) while still having a viable product to sell if the MMO portion doesn't take off. And having a solid single player would probably build some loyalty into your customers,so they will be more forgiving if it takes a little while for you to get all the MMO content up,instead of p*ssing off your users like Hellgate did. In conclusion I think you have some fine ideas and it would be a great game if someone used them. But as always this is my 02c,YMMV

No regrets

[Threemoons]

Hey all. I have to say, I ponied up for a founder's account in Hellgate and I'll be sad to see the game go. I actually really enjoy playing it, and I do hope that they find a way to keep the servers up.

Now if Conan goes tits-up, I'll scream. OTOH I would buy a lifetime sub for that in a heartbeat.

Re:No regrets

[christ, jesus H]

Yeah AoC does have the biggest boobies in gaming . . .

A crying shame

[GotGame.com]

it's too bad . . . a lot of the employees at flagship are very talented people . . . i hope they will be able to land on their feet from this

Hellgate made me sleepy

[christ, jesus H]

Ive played this game, it made me sleepy. I suspected they were gonna have a problem when after so many years of development and so much hype, the final product made me say . . . meh.

Bug ridden?

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, what a fool I was. I played through the entire game with no problems and enjoyed it very much. But that was before I went online and heard that it was actually a buggy piece of shit. Good thing I checked the ol' Interwebs! Or.... could it be that all your stupid whining blabber is WRONG? Naw... the Interwebs is always right...?

Micropay

[azzuth]

I've always liked the micropay system, I think it certainly gives the players options. Maybe a hybrid system would be in order, ie: you play for free and just access the free content, or you pay a tiered monthly fee and the money you pay can be used to redeem items, or in a "Cash Store" And players could certainly pay the minimum monthly fee and still toss more cash in to get stuff they don't have enough points for yet. That would take some of the "Ohh, i want to buy this or that, but I just can't justify paying a dollar for it." They are paying for access to the items and then getting to use that money again. And if someone wanted to buy lots and lots of cash items they could pay more individually or up their monthly fee. Parents could even set up ingame allowances with this system...

You sparked some good food for thought. I thank you!

Server software

[protektor]

If they are going under, then for god's sake please release the server code to the community. There is nothing worse than having a game you play suddenly become unplayable with your friends because the company shut down the server.

I wonder if users of the game could sue claiming breach of implied contract. That it was figured that the servers would be up at least 3-4 years, maybe longer, and here they are up what barely a year?

And people wonder why the Open Source community hacks and creates clone servers? This right here is one of the many reasons that clone servers pop-up.