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IT Jobs To Drop In 2009
ruphus13 writes "A new Goldman Sachs IT report recently released states that IT jobs will be dramatically reduced in 2009, starting with contract and offshore developers. From the article: 'Sharp reductions likely in contract staff, professional services and hardware, and almost no investment in cloud computing.' The article goes on to say 'The CIOs indicated that server virtualization and server consolidation are their No. 1 and No. 2 priorities. Following these two are cost-cutting, application integration, and data center consolidation. At the bottom of the list of IT priorities are grid computing, open-source software, content management and cloud computing (called on-demand/utility computing in the survey) — less than 2% of the respondents said cloud computing was a priority.' Postulating a 'pointy haired boss' problem, an analyst goes on to say, '[Grid computing, Open Source and Cloud computing] require a technical understanding to get to their importance. I don't think C-level executives and managers have that understanding.' But they do control the paychecks ..."
A lot of IT is an expense without adequate ROI. Huge IT support staffs were a consequence of poor products, badly implemented systems, a glut of unnecessary purchases, etc. While some IT functions will always need on-site support, better-designed systems and software (including middleware) should make it possible to reduce IT staffing costs.
Think of all the other functions that have disappeared over the past century: typing pools, filing clerks, huge mail rooms. The armies of help desk types will go the same way.
that offshore jobs will go first. They're cheaper than local jobs.
_Vishal www.squad9.com
If there was ever a semi-mindless task that brings home the bacon, integration is it.
Make this work with that and that work with this.
Ok.
*scratches ass*
*does it*
*gets paid then laid*
I didn't see any reasons backing up these postulations. Especially the downturn in contractors. Is this yet another case of these companies reporting something just so they can report something?
but, will they really drop globally ?
AND, since, our area, i.t., is a field that is kinda the originator of the concept of telecommuting, wont many i.t. people in u.s. be able to find work overseas, working through telecommuting ?
i dare not say demand for i.t. people will go down worldwide. its kinda impossible, since i.t. revolution is on full steam right now - we, as a civilization, are little far from trying to integrate our toilets to computers and internet.
Read radical news here
Grid computing, Open Source and Cloud computing] require a technical understanding to get to their importance. I don't think C-level executives and managers have that understanding.
In my country, we have a saying: "Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?" In this case, the milk is open source software and the cow is the developer.
Do you even lift?
These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.
Plainly, they just "don't get it". Hah! Remember that one?
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
Now that mosix is dead, what sorts of "general use' open source 'clouds' exist now?
I also can see a legit use for root kits like this, just make all your PC"s appear like a VM server and spread the load around.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
This doesn't surprise me too much. There's been a bad recession on the horizon for quite some time now, and it looks like it's coming home to roost.
For the first time since I graduated college, I'm not getting called for interviews, even for positions which I'm eminently qualified. It's getting tougher for people to find jobs, regardless of what they do. I've heard Republicans say that we're going to be in the worst recession since the Great Depression - which means that we're probably in quite a bit of trouble.
Perhaps I'm speculating a little too much here, but I'll bet the money that would have gone for IT salaries, etc... is now going into the coffers of the oil companies. Because our economy is so dependent upon oil for everything we do from growing crops to power generation to transportion, any rise in the price of oil is going to have a ripple effect.
Perhaps GW and Co saw peak oil coming and thought if we could just take Iraq, that we'd have enough oil. Perhaps they didn't understand that the loss of Iraq's oil on the world market would drive up prices - or maybe they did...
The society for a thought-free internet welcomes you.
I'm sorry, but it's hard to take your message seriously when your company name is Pund-IT. From the name, I think you'd have been better off with Pun-dit. Or Pwnd-IT, which is pretty much what a lot of consultants are going to be feeling like next year.
At any rate, anyone who has been around business through a down-cycle or two would know that this is common sense. New programs, new ways of doing things, are saved for when the budget Gods are feeling generous with surpluses, not when eveyone is tightening their belts. There are, of course, exceptions to this... but anyone who thought that, in general, discretionary spending would increase over the next year really needs to have their head examined.
"Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
Can't speak for the US, but in the UK we're ideal for economic downturns.
We don't cost holiday, pension, bonuses or sick pay, we don't have loads of employment law red tape and we can be brought in for specific projects and timeframes and tend to come with much shorter notice periods.
Plus the public sector loves us.
We'll see a freeze in rates, maybe even a reduction, but if anything economic downturns signal a bad time for those in permie jobs.
Bob the permie coder might be on half my hourly rate, but if he's only got three months work in a year he's going to cost you more than twice as much as bringing me in for 3 months.
in tomorrows news: Internet to be shut down in 2009. Related jobs cut. $$$ saved.
There are companies who aren't constrained by money as much as by electricity. There are colos with plenty of space, yet do not have the juice to feed racks and racks of units. Asking individual servers to do more, and looking at green solutions not so much for the environment but for making the most out of the least juice makes a lot of sense when your potential growth is constrained by available resources. In these cases there's no threat to jobs, if anything it's the opposite, allowing for growth by making the most of what until recently has been essentially squandered.
Loose lips lose spit.
...more free time to develop open source programs?
Your guess is as good as mine.
The same thing will happen again. If there is going to be a tough time (and we're certainly talking ourselves into it) then all it means is that new stuff will be delayed a bit. However, during that time we'll be able to filter out all the froth and hype, leaving us to get on with the good stuff when the money returns.
It's not the end of the world, just be patient.
politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
Until someone with the correct technical understanding can actually go to their manager and (with a straight face) say, "I'll use cloud computing to solve this problem because that'll save us money and time" there's no real reason to expect anyone to get it.
Successful blue-sky projects are mostly run by strong companies in good economic times. So, not so likely right now. Someone who's playing with their own money could well take advantage of this lack of understanding or vision or whatever, but that's not really a bad thing. Unless you're stuck in cubicle land and still want to play with the latest, coolest buzzwords.
cogito ergo dubito
If you are a seasoned IT professional or somebody who is starting out, things are looking bright for you as long as you have what it takes to be an engineer. I welcome any sort of clean up or a downturn in IT economy because most of the time it means that the bottom of the IT-wannabes will be laid off. This will benefit everybody in the long run.
First of all, engineering, unlike being a pizza delivery person, requires some knowledge and a certain set of analytical skills that one is born with. You can train people to deliver pizzas and punch cards, but it is hard to train people to resolve problems or come up with elaborate solutions. While books and schools may help, you either get it or not from the very beginning. Downturn in IT will mean that people who were there just for the sake of it, will probably lose their jobs or move on. This is great for the folks who -- while being good peole -- are simply not suited for jobs in the field of information technology.
While we all cry about off-shore development labs and cheap labor around the world, we are forgetting one thing: Americans are cheap now. Due to the falling dollar it makes less sense to run costly operations overseas. With China, India and Russia on the rise, people in those countries may see little in jobs and environments that make them work for the global companies (aka capitalist pigs).I would not be too concerned about wages if I were you. In fact, bad conditions in the U.S. sent many people who are currently employed via visas overseasas. Several friends of mine have moved back to their home countries alrady because "There is nothing to do in the U.S." This happens because while U.S. economy may go down, the world's economy is still expanding and there are plenty of things that have to be done in Moscow, Mumbai and Beijing. Good fore those who go back home and establish companies there. Good for the rest of us who are here.
And finally the loss of IT jobs should not be seen as the judgement day. I found that many people with engineering and business skills are more than capable of starting their own businesses and running their own shows. If you do not belong to the first group of people -- the ones who were not doing anything productive -- and you're not on a visa -- and you cannot go back home to start something new -- use the settlement to start something new. Many large companies are losing business because of the bad decisions that were made across the corporate ladder. A bust is only a bust if you think this way. In reality, it is a great opportunity for improvement for those of us who would like to grab the bull by its horns.
Don't have the backing of microsoft telling the C series execs what to think.
They should rename themselves Masonsoft.
Nullius in verba
Software development isn't something you do as a businessperson because you want to pay for people to work on computers - it's something you do because you want something made or done.
Businesses will still want things made, and they will still want things done, because they are still going to be responding to a changing market, and they still want to be able to make new stuff, or change the stuff they currently make.
Software may be expensive to develop and test, but it's still one of the cheapest things you can mass produce, and one of the cheapest ways you can modify an existing product line to expand your market.
The emphasis will certainly be on return on investment - and there will be very nice plans on exactly how to spend the least possible, but the moment the competition has a feature that looks to harm the product line, *gasp* - suddenly the design for the product will have to be retrofitted, testing will have to be expanded, or the product release cycle will have to be accelerated to get that new feature in!
I completely understand this survey though - while companies do care if they end up spending more than they initially estimated, they just need to estimate low costs now, thanks to economic pressures to show the illusion of fiscal improvement and concern for the shareholder's resources.
So to show productivity when all you have are plans, you plan to make better features, spend less, and beat the competition - then ask for more money when you have more to show, which would only go to waste if you stopped now.
What this illusion accomplishes is a bit backwards though - there simply won't be as much open planning of large software project, and more emergency dollars and small contracts. You end up spending much more - much like the shift towards low cost estimates, but then using contractors and emergency spending in the Iraq war. It's the way the game tends to be played in poorly planned business and government - and it's very alluring if you only care about a small set of things going into it.
Ryan Fenton
Someone in the media said I.T. jobs are going to drop next year? They *MUST* be able to tell the future! =p
On a serious note, I'm glad I.T. jobs are going to decrease. Hopefully it will align with I.T. jobs demanding more expertise and more actual work getting done, instead of having a "cloud" (or "grid", if you will) of Windows-only support drones reading scripts to you over the phone while you try to get support for a purchased product.
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
Goldman Sachs IT, eh? Yesterday it was Gartner. These are guys with funded track records of largely failure, IMHO. I wouldn't give them much creedence. The industry is ripe and rife with change, be it the blossoming of mobiles/cells to the enormous competitiveness of online commerce platforms, incredible changes in entertainment delivery systems, etc.
There's a small problem in the US economy that will actually be improved no matter who is elected US president, as it always is a honeymoon between investors and the new government every four years. And it's very likely that with a new regime will come a drastic cut in oil prices.... further spurring money back into tech, where we've made the most gains in the past few decades.
Gotta love a doom sayer; it's done so they can by the stock cheaper now, then sell it higher later. This is called capitalism, and the propaganda is called marketing.
---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
Seriously....I look in the paper and it's filled with ads for drivers. That and health care professionals. And as I would rather stick a pencil in my eye than work in health care, I figure my misanthropic ways would be better shifted toward driving.
I'm 46 and have to basically totally switch careers as there are just aren't any jobs in my profession anymore. It's over saturated. I hardly ever see an ad for IT or anything related in my area. As scary as it sounds, changing directions even this far into life may not be a bad idea.
Even with fuel prices sky-high, trucking will be with us for a while as lets face it....everything within your eyesight right now reading these words was all delivered or transported some way via a truck (unless you're looking out your window at a tree or something).
"Leo Fender was in a 'state of grace' when he designed the Stratocaster." -- Paul Reed Smith
C - Level executives realize that the technology needed to make the experience persistent for their end users when using cloud computing is iffy at best. Ask our friends using Google Mail, GDocs and me.com how that is going Maybe once there is a cloud of 4G wireless covering the US with enough redundancies.
Well, I think I should prepare to jump the IT ship pretty soon. My friend, with whom we were in this IT sector, jumped to the health-care field.
His Bachelor's and two Masters degrees in the IT sector at age 37 helped him get admission into one of the most coveted Nursing courses. He now practices as a nurse manager, earning close to US$80K. This does not include part-time work which he has to run away from.
This fella makes close to US$145K. I envy him. Guys, the health-care field is booming. Reports say nurses are in short supply and this will be the case for another three decades!
I am seriously considering jumping ship before it's too late.
Question is: Am I wrong?
>>>C-level executives and managers do not have that understanding This kind of geek bone headedness is what irritates me sometimes. Have you ever thought that they think about the actual prohibitive maintenance cost (instead of the *insert uber-geek cutting edge stuff*) involved in these things?
Or we could see a rebound propelled by technological innovation in green power and technologies.
But speaking from personal experience the oil companies are spending on IT. Now if they'd only spend on exploration or R&D.
Open-source shall finally be getting more developers. I mean, KDE 4 might actually get some people to use all those hip-new-technologies-and-APIs-that-no-one-has-used-yet-but-are-awesome-anyway.
The statements that Cloud Computing, grid computing, and open source software are not priorities is ludicrous. These are tools that are used to solve problems. It's like saying a hammer is a priority rather than building a house. No C?O will ever say that these are priorities while they may say that virtualization is a priority because it is often considered a project to virtualize as much as possible for DR and to cut costs. If spending on IT does dip we all know that only the bottom 10% will get their walking papers. I would assume that Charles King will be one of them.
I swear I didn't know it was loaded...
This doesn't surprise me too much. There's been a bad recession on the horizon for quite some time now, and it looks like it's coming home to roost.
I wonder if your exact area of expertise or geographic location is a factor in that? I haven't been looking for work in months and still get occasional calls to see if I am looking for work. (The most recent one was just last week, and they were looking for a 1-2 year commitment.) I've heard of some people having a hard time, and others are up to their eyeballs in work.
Oh wait...
IT jobs will become a "skilled labor" job - i.e. blue collar.
My sister is in the higher-ups of a large healthcare corporation, and she has just told me a few weeks ago that they are actually short of IT personnel and are going to start hiring them straight out of college, when normally they would require previous work experience. Then again, Goldman Sachs seems to talk their own books, not to say they aren't a great firm...but, they aren't always right but seem to cause a significant short term impact on markets.
Except C++ (like Java) is just a real horrendous language. I absolutely loathe C++.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
Iraqs oil was up on the market before?
You are doing a little bit of fear mongering there.
I.T. and construction are taking some of the hardest hits.
I worry that I might be pushed off the ship at some point not far from now. Since I must have some form of income to survive in today's America, I thought that being pro-active and NOT being reactionary is better, when the inevitable happens.
By the way, I agree with you that happiness is not money - how can it be? For many, including yourself I guess, money is an important part of happiness.
If you can be really happy with zero income, accept my apologies.
me and my colleagues actually are telecommuting.
i kinda own my own business though. but, judging from the possibilities available in dev communities around the net, i can say that there are decent number of telecommuting jobs for many programming positions. provided that you can prove experience and track record. elance is one.
what i think is, many people who always worked in corporate culture either dont know where to look telecommuting jobs, or look down when they find them.
Read radical news here
Why take the cheap shot at Microsoft? They are not even mentioned in the article?
What would the world be like without Google?
Well, it would have a few more dissidents.
"Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
Quite the opposite, cloud computing takes marketing savvy and buzzword compliance to understand.
It's re-branded SOA, end of story
It is taking fewer and fewer people to do jobs that used to take more people to do them. Cuts in the overall number of IT jobs will continue for quite awhile. This is especially true in front line jobs like IT support and Help Desk. The former are fewer because hardware has become more redundant and commoditized; it's easy to just plop a new box down or have your redundant drives/servers take over the load while you get around to fixing it. The latter are fewer because more and more organizations are moving towards 'self healing' and 'self help' type support models.
Cloud computing is not the same thing as Service Oriented Architecture in the same way that the interstate highway system isn't the same thing as an automobile.
than the five gazillion Indian and Chinese IT workers?
He put his boots up on the table and made a face. "The sig," he smirked. "You can waste your life in search of the sig."
I work in Healthcare IT. Sometimes when I think I have stress to deal with I walk to a patient care floor and watch what the nurses do for a living. I have seen a nurse changing a mans diarhea filled diaper in one bed while the patient in the other bed began to vomit violently. She helped both patients clean themselves with a smile telling them not to worry about the mess. This often helps me realize how much I love working in IT.
I swear I didn't know it was loaded...
So you're saying that cloud computing is infrastructure to support SOA?
This suits me just fine. Every couple years or so, the industry gets fat with those who don't really deserve their position, due to a variety of factors (dumb, lucky, know the boss etc)
The first to go will be the fat on the bone, which, as the subject line suggests, suits me just fine.
Hi, I Boris. Hear fix bear, yes?
My troll was better than your troll.
"Piter, too, is dead."
Companies with foresight and vision will investigate those technologies that can increase their productivity AND the bottom line profit. Patching the dam only keeps it from breaking until later. You have to build a better one at some point.
Grid computing works. It's used in science research quite effectively. Cloud computing is coming no matter what people want.
There was a time when companies had their own power production facilities, now they don't (for the most part). As networking becomes faster (both latency and bandwidth) it will become cheaper to run your software somewhere else than running it in your building.
Once you start outsourcing applications and virtual servers, you get by with a fraction of the number of people you had before. IT budgets can shrink, and there are fewer jobs.
Of course, that's exactly why IT managers hate it.
...and how important nurses are. They do great work.
And this really comes to the heart of everything. This country is full of good people doing good work, trying their best to play by the rules created by a system that does not care for its citizens anymore.
We're bleeding... and there's no nurse to help us.
Our country is a market, not a country. We have buying power, but it is running out fast. There is no real sign of turn around. Our only hopes is to force these companies to pay heavy tax penalties for employing over seas. After all, they are taking our dollars, and giving nothing in return. They need to be heavily penalized for raping our country.
If they do not give back the dollars through employing our people, then it is in our interest to force them to pay us heavy tax fines for taking our money.
I dont know about you, but my dollars should not be going to building a chinese empire. I would rather see my neighbors family living a quality life.
I contract for a defense and manufacturing company and previously they to were gung-ho about virtualization but virtualization was sold as a magic bullet that it is not and we're scaling it back after real-world experience.
It works for many things that are relatively low impact/low risk but if you try and virtualize a core business application - even something as simple as portal/sharepoint/app servers you very quickly realize the limitations & issues thereof.
What used to be a measure of ROI / Cost Benefit is now (rightly so) weighed against the expense of downtime. That "savings" of not having real iron and virtual servers isn't really a savings anymore. Enable APM and save more than virtualizing.
At least for IT workers in the USA, UK, Australia, and Canada.
Occam's razor: off-shore labor is a lot cheaper, therefore employers will off-shore every possible job. If you do your job sitting in front of a computer, then your job can probably be off-shored - if not now, then certainly in the near future.
Furthermore, the simple laws of supply and demand dictate that the few jobs that are not off-shored, will have a glut of qualified applicants. The experienced developers who have their jobs off-shored, will clearly try to leverage their existing training and experience into the few remaining IT jobs that can not be easily off-shored. This causes a glut, and drives down wages.
The IT worker glut may be increased even more by improved automation of information system maintenance, standardization of software, and non-IT specialists who are increasingly sophisticated with information technology.
There can be nothing to stop this devastating trend, due to the following:
1) Corrupt USA politicians
2) USA IT workers are not willing to organize (please note: I am not suggesting a union)
3) Influential corporations have effectively distorted the issues
So there you go, it's as simple as that.
IMO: this trend is presently in it's infancy. The present trend has very little to do with the present economic slump. In fact, when the US economy recovers, this trend will accelerate even faster. The present situation for US IT workers is much better now, than it will be five years from now.
Well, this very website is a worldwide opinion leader in the movement that says that the kind of creative intellectual work (music, films, software, literature, engineering and creative design) that the US excels at, should be given away for free. Except insofar as
1) it is delivered integrated with hardware - guess who can do efficient manufacturing at much lower cost than the US?
2) it is billable by the hour - guess whose college graduates can bill at much lower rates than Americans?
Too bad the Chinese probably aren't allowed to read Slashdot, I bet they'd love the opinions expressed here re copyright laws.
You shouldn't be so proud of the fact that you're a stronger flavor of douche than someone else.
I'm sorry, but regardless of the long term outcome of Iraq, we aren't helped oil wise since we just allowed them to rejoin the OPEC cartel. Anyone who believes that Iraq was a 'war for oil' is foolish. Whatever the stupidity behind Iraq, that wasn't it, or it was the absolute worst possible execution of a war for oil possible.
"Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
One bank that wasn't even on the so called "danger list" just collapsed and sucked down 1/5th of the available FDIC account "insurance" money.(IndyMac, plenty of news references)
There isn't a little recession coming, there's a global depression and it will be worse than the "great" depression, because the paper financial instruments that are out there (that mostly didn't even exist back then) have diluted and skewed the worth of certain important aspects of the economy to ludicrous levels in favor of their toxic waste paper "products". Unfortunately the ones who caused all this mess are "in charge" of somehow fixing the mess, like asking the mob to control crime downtown, and all they will fix is their own wallets and keeping economic and political control. The global powerful billionaires are going to make damn sure they stay billionaires no matter what it takes, how much they have to order their stooge puppet politicians and paramilitary forces to "crack down on dissent"-which is coming- no matter how many new "emergency edicts" they have to come up with, even if it means one million people per fatcat billionaire go into abject poverty. That is just the nature of high stakes predatory capitalism today, ruthless doesn't even come close, they are the new feudalists, with full ultimate power, and I mean ultimate. It's too bad because they are the ones who need to go broke and never be put in charge of anything more important than a gumball machine, but that isn't going to happen, so be prepared for a medium wild ride the next..oh...decade or so.
"It's his right to do so of course since it is his money". I think 2000+ years of human history has proven that given the chance a small group of individuals will hoard everything and leave the rest killing each other for scraps. Why should we let that happen? Why is it OK for Carly Fiori to buy a private plane when my single mom neighbor is about to loose her home because her ARM shot her payments way up?
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
"I wonder why the OP lends any credence to having a degree in the field. Going into my fourth year in computer engineering, I've learned it's usually not worth the paper it's printed on." - by story645 (1278106) * on Monday July 21, @08:26PM (#24282571)
Ok, I have done computer science & an MIS degrees (bachelors on latter, associates on former, which came later to 'freshen up/update' for the world of the PC, instead of the mainframe/midrange world I came out of in the 1980s):
I will tell you why degrees matter, ESPECIALLY vs. 'certs alone':
See - You 'take it for granted', in what you've learned, believe it or not (like anyone & everyone should know this stuff... I know, I was YOU once, more than 17 yrs. ago in fact...
Well, "NewsFlash/New NEWS":
Don't be surprised when others around you, minus your background, are dumbfounded by that type of train of thought...
E.G.#1-> I remember telling a bunch of network techs, or rather, first asking them:
"Do you know how to find the midpoint of an array, without knowing the total # of elements"
& not a one of them could... basic stuff really, & one of the questions I was asked in an interview by Microsoft in fact)
E.G. #2 -> Stuff like you take in the course "datastructures" for better algorithms for sorts for instance (yes, this is usually built into VISUAL controls like ActiveX/OLEServers OR VCL derived controls as a property & method, but... think it will be in a console mode app or driver? You don't have access to that there, period - no visual window inheritance properities will carry over there usually, diff. libs used is why)
Now - you may think it's worthless, well, wait until you get a problem some custom control OR built in function is NOT enough for & then, you'll see what your background's worth... especially vs. cert. bearing bozos (often limited in skills scope bigtime, vs. someone ilke yourself - remember: MOST OF THEM? Play music by "tablature", vs. being able to read music, so to speak, in this field... our kind MAKES THE TOOLS THEY MERELY USE, get it?)
Without you making the tools for them, many times (fully idiot proofed)? They're LOST. You'll see it one day, guaranteed, professionally (mark my words). Think of me then, when you do, lol!
(I.E.-> Vs. some "MCSE" or other 'cert'? You'll be the one that knows what is up, vs. having their "deer in the headlights" struck dumb look, in being unable to solve pretty basic algorithmic problems...)
E.G.#1-> I remember telling a bunch of network techs, or rather, first asking them:
"Do you know how to find the midpoint of an array, without knowing the total # of elements"
& not a one of them could...
We had this kid in my research lab who was a fabulous hacker and pretty solid scripter, but didn't know what a for loop was. One of the best programmers I know is self taught (which is the way a lot of people got into the field)). On the flip side, I've got classmates who are so lost on fundamentals that they don't know what an object is (seriously, one professor gives that question on exams and it kills students.)
I've seen far too many people get through their degrees through a combination of cheating, relying on partners, and cutting and pasting code to really trust it. One of the worst programmers I know has a 4.0; he writes hacks that work well enough, but that I wouldn't trust anywhere near production code (mostly 'cause I've seen it fail miserably in production code 'cause he didn't comprehend real time debugging.)
open source modern art: laser taggi
Everyone else had the same idea too, and big hospital management is having the same H1B ideas that everyone else had too. Engineering is a zero, which is a good reason for declining enrollment. Law has always been a crap shot as are most insurance/sales/bank cubicle jobs. Medicine still pays well and there are lots of employers. But guess what, the same kind of regional consolidation is taking over and the biggest hospitals have started to import H1B, aka slave, labor. Insurance companies are doing their part to force the same kind of throat/cost cutting all around. The downturn is only going to accelerate these trends. If we get another republican administration, Medicine will look like software, aviation or broadcast media.
Bottom line, keep doing what you do best. Trends will always betray you.
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
Code development overseas is rough at best.
Deadlines mean nothing outside Canada and the US. The arabs have a word for this call in shala. The translation means if god willing it will get done. I guess God didn't will it so it didn't get done.
The Asian nations have another word for it. Basically in most cultures outside of European decent the education system teaches theory but not how to succeed.
I have worked in many parts of the world and I can tell you that the Canmerician IT worker should not be afraid of being out produced. We need to fear the evil account that doesn't understand the delays and lost opportunity costs by outsourcing.
'At the bottom of the list of IT priorities are grid computing, open-source software, content management and cloud computing (called on-demand/utility computing in the survey) â" less than 2% of the respondents said cloud computing was a priority.'
What the hell is "on-demand/utility" computing? The fact that it requires a "/" in the name is a total buzz kill. And both grid computing and open source software are concepts, not products, so they won't "buy" them obviously.
'The CIOs indicated that server virtualization and server consolidation are their No. 1 and No. 2 priorities.'
My understanding is that _this_ is exactly what cloud computing is... or touts to be. And hence the buzz.
Your 12 servers virtualized = Your "Cloud"
Yes, it is still a foggy concept, but clearly this is the way to go, and what is driving the trend.
...is that they only asked Fortune 1000 CIOs. Where do the majority of IT people work? I'll give you a hint: it ain't in F1000 organizations. I'm an independent contractor working in the small business sector. My clients have 50, maybe 100 total employees, $1-$10 million in revenue and no programmers on staff. Yet they need, or want, custom systems built. I have to turn away business and I see no end in sight.
LONG REPLY, you seem like nice person (unlike some around here), & I think you'll enjoy the read (geek speek):
"We had this kid in my research lab who was a fabulous hacker and pretty solid scripter, but didn't know what a for loop was." - by story645 (1278106) * on Monday July 21, @09:09PM (#24283013)
One of the faster loop types, generally.
MAINLY because you have the number of elements 'hardcoded in' & you're starting to see the 'faint glimmerings' I think of WHY/HOW you can speed up loops, especially unbound ones on datasets you have NO init. idea of their size in RAM for instance, in an array/dynamic structure/list-string list, recordset, you name it (all basically link lists, or trees, or arrays) etc. et al.
(In having an initially unknown # of elements - for loops, rock)
See here, if need be (you probably do a LOT of java nowadays, seems to be the trend, multiplatform interpreted SLOW, but works multiplatform) & READ TO THE END, because it's interesting & some "proof" here, of the commonly accepted FOR loop speed (deceiving @ first though, so do read to the end):
http://cosminb.blogspot.com/2004/09/performance-tweaking-for-vs-while-vs.html
Anyhow, with that midpoint of an array? You can & will be able to actually MAKE THEM FASTER LOOP TYPES, if you think about it (instead of using EOF markers in SLOWER "While" loops, etc.), via finding the total # of elements, first (per that question I asked the network techs in fact)...
IMO? Pretty simple but more-than-potentially USEFUL stuff, fundamental for code optimizations imo, w/ just a touch more work: 2 pointers, one always double the size of the others' position, & once the larger one can't advance? There ya go - midpoint of array!
Great for sorts & searches (think btrees etc.) + more, IF you think about it, AND you have total # of elements too (got that - double the midpoint, you have total elements too? You have a FAST FOR LOOP, vs. slow WHILE loop, waiting on something to occur to trigger quit time).
----
Sorry if that's review - it's just an example of the systems of THOUGHT you'll have, over networkers, for example (& certainly managers in this field who can't do the job hands on... why they are there? NO IDEA! Boggles the mind, imo - non productive dead weight).
----
Anyhow, from what you stated, above?
Well, congratulations for seconding me:
You've ALREADY encountered that which I spoke of & seen it, too (trust me, don't "devalue" your degree, especially courses like datastructures!) - believe me, because of your training, you know a LOT more than network folks/techs do, by far. You've actually got weapons of understanding of how this stuff works, @ a nuts & bolts level (& there is always that you will run into)... not just using prebuilt tools, IF they exist either - you can MAKE them the tools needed, where they can't in MANY a circumstance, period.
Don't doubt it, because not only THAT will come easier for you, & put you that 'shade above the competition' for coding, but, also for debugging OS hassles or other code related hassles - you're NOT "playing via tableture" using others' tools, like say, PING... you can BUILD PING, easily enough, + understand the parms (& thus, what data it takes & can use) for ICMP.DLL or other OS libs (NIX is good example), & the whole 9 yards in sockets eventually... for example!
(Hey - by now? YOU KNOW THIS -> Its all files, lol (Open-Read/Write-Close, like ALL else, inclusive of device contexts, etc.) if need be & specifically how YOU need it to be, building your own 'harleys/tools' - you can, they most likely, never WILL be able to (certainly not in the levels of code you'll be working with (ala pointers/arrays/link lists etc.) & rely on "prebuilt turnkey solutions" - sure, some code EVEN FOR %% loops in say, batchfiles for
The U.S. economy continues it's long slide into oblivion as the decision makers at all levels fail to grasp the importance of investing in new technologies and methodologies over simply providing a return on shareholder investment.
You're all fucked. Good night.
"I have seen a nurse changing a mans diarhea filled diaper in one bed while the patient in the other bed began to vomit violently."
Sounds like my cube farm when the server crapped out over the weekend, but of course no monitoring, so apps hung up on Monday.
"Server virtualization" is an admission that system administration is badly designed. After all, you're not going to get any more work out of the machine than you would running multiple processes. Usually, you get less. Part of the problem is that Linux is still locked into the old UNIX user/group/everybody model of security, with an all-powerful "root". Virtualization is a way of working around that limitation.
OpenVZ and Linux-VServer are efforts to get around this problem by adding another level of administrative containerization. The performance is better, since you're not going through two layers of operating systems.
Many of the problems come from the fact that some major applications are coded as singletons. For example, Apache assumes there is only one instance of itself per machine. (Yes, this can be worked around, but it's not easy.) So do most mail handling programs. If you can install and run an application without running as "root", it probably doesn't need virtualization.
Programming is hard. C/C++ is hard. It should be hard. I personally hate all the high level languages' code eating up my cpu cycles. I didnt buy a quad core so that some shitty app can hog the cpu. Higher Productivity be dammed. A skilled programmer can be highly productive in any language.
You have to create something of significance first, to earn bitching rights. Since I don't know, Let me ask, What have you done?
This news just makes my day along with the news of IndyMac and other institutes going down the crapper!
I'm not.
"Piter, too, is dead."
But tell us more about the ceiling cat and masturbation, please!
I just had a conference call with people from India like 10 minutes ago. On the phone I understand like
every second word or so.. and of course when they're needed, with the timeshift they're not available.
E.G.#1-> I remember telling a bunch of network techs, or rather, first asking them: "Do you know how to find the midpoint of an array, without knowing the total # of elements"
Is that some kind of trick question or are you just making up bullshit? There is no correct answer to that question.
Football Odds
The correct answer to that question is "no, and it isn't possible". At least not without some further information. It does sound like bullshit.
Buddy, nothing you can do, will ever be better than what I can do, period...
He's not your buddy, guy!
I usually read even long trogladite posts, but when they're filled with LOLBOLDCAPS I get bored quickly. I doubt many slashdotters have a PhD in English - but evidently, neither do you.
Are you perhaps on medication at the moment? Do you like building very large sandcastles and towers?
which is totally what she said
everyone gets paid per their quality.
That's only half true. You could be the best coder, admin, whatever in the world and still not earn shit if you don't possess a good ability to self-promote and self-market your skill set. The fact is, that if you're not able to make others - especially your employers - aware of how good you are, you won't be payed what you're worth. Just being good isn't enough - the right people have to *know* you're good.
unfortunately the requirement of being able to making your value known is valid for every aspect of life, leave aside any profession.
Read radical news here
We're delivering millions of dollars of savings every year through grid computing, as well as increasing our profits and the amount of capital we have on-hand to trade with. Believe me, grid computing isn't low on the priority list around here :)
For someone with a mere 16 years in industry, a degree in maths, and 26 years of programming, can you enlighten me as to the answer to this?
"Do you know how to find the midpoint of an array, without knowing the total # of elements"
Either I'm parsing the question wrong or it's impossible. You could poll [2N] until you hit an exception but this doesn't work on machines/languages that simply crash when you access an array out-of-bounds. So what's the general solution?
You guys are so late. I just came back from a counseling where I took admission to an IT Engineering course. Now I'm unemployed before being eligible to be employed.
RutSum.com
Sounds to me like that guy with the 4.0 knows what he doesn't want to do with the degree and is learning the skills he needs to accomplish what is required. Get to know him, because wherever he ends up he'll probably end up being the boss.
He means linked list.
A good question for interviews is "what's the difference between a linked list and an array".
I guess he flunked that, degree and all.
"Do you know how to find the midpoint of an array, without knowing the total # of elements"
Okay, I assume the language is C.
What does a raw "C" pointer give you?
If you're writing in kernel mode, the C-language [and its compiled implementations] won't even reliably throw a segmentation fault if you go past the end of the "malloc'ed" territory [otherwise strcpy() wouldn't be hax0rable to produce buffer overflows - although maybe the problem is that the kernel-ish aspects of strcpy() use an even more simplistic memory structure than what you get with malloc()].
If it were a file pointer, then you I guess you might be able to rely on EOF, but I don't know of any generalized "EOF" for malloc [at least not in old-school C - maybe one of the more recent ANSI standards has added something new that I don't know about].
I'll accept that in some languages a "for" loop has a fixed limit, even though I can't think of any language offhand for which this is true. So your confusion in thinking that a "for" loop is somehow fundamentally different from a "while" loop is forgivable. But your confusion of the concepts of "array" and "linked list" is a schoolboy error. You'd flunk any CS course and/or any job interview by not understanding this.
Ironic to find so many fundamental misconceptions in a post about how important it is to understand the fundamentals.
All right, I admit, it's been a while since I wrote any "C".
In the old days, the standard was that "p" was an array pointer if and only if "p == &p" [for malloc'ed, or malloc-able, pointers, in general, "p != &p"].
Having said that, I vaguely remember that for character arrays, in some implementations of compiled "C", you could count on an extra eight bits of 0's [i.e. "00000000"] immediately at the end of the array, and if you could move the array pointer over by one and read that "zero byte" [without throwing a segmentation fault in user mode], then you'd know that you had hit the end of the [character] array.
But I don't know of anything in the ANSI or IEEE standards which states that e.g. a 32-bit int array ends in 32-bits worth of 0's [since that actually is a valid 32-bit int, namely "0" itself], nor have I ever heard that e.g. the 64-bit value of all 0's was reserved in IEEE 754 to signify the end of an array of 64-bit doubles.
I've wondered why. I work in vertical industry (energy), where believe it or not, we have trouble attracting attracting quality IT people.
He's one of my best friends, and he doesn't have the people (political) skills to become the boss (he's had a project forked over it) and he wants to go the academia route. Plus he's one of the people that cheat their ways to a degree; I know 'cause my poor textbooks have ended up in almost every boy's bathroom trashcan as a result. (And therefore I must stop lending him my books.)
Actually he's one of the many people that made me horribly disillusioned with the degree. He's great at some stuff, (even been published a few times) but it's all things he learned on his own/would've learned even without school 'cause he's a hardcore EE geek. Which is what I'm mostly finding, that either people get good at it 'cause they've got a passion for it or they stay mediocre. Though one the best compE people I know, a guy who really knows his stuff, once to go to law school 'cause it'll pay better.
open source modern art: laser taggi
That post was for the AC who is taking this all a little too seriously.
As a software development guy in the process of job hunting, I can't say that this has reflected my experience. The only reason I don't have a new job already is because I'm being super-picky.
Ok, how do you find the midpoint of an array without knowing the total # of elements?
Isn't much of the IT workforce due to retire in a few years? I think at my company 90% are eligible to retire within the next 5 years. We're aggressively hiring so that we won't be in trouble when they do start retiring.
Therefore, even if there are a large number of IT jobs cut next year, would the number of people retiring balance it out?
... you don;t have enough life or corporate experience to be a manager.
This is the problem with IT now. Companies pay peanuts for new people (please tell us, are you working 35 to 40 hours a week? No? Why I am not surprised) in order to exploit them doing a job for which they are not prepared.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
I have worked in several countries and if the only jobs are elsewhere I will pack and go.
I find mind boggling that US techies have problems to find a job.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
In most of the languages that anyone actually uses, there's a function to return the length of the array, so that's the easiest. Otherwise, the other AC actually answered: (pythonish, non optimized, psuedocode)
i=0
k=0
end=a[k]
While end!=None:
midpt_val=unknown[i]
end=unknown[k]
i+=1
k+=2*i
midpt=i
open source modern art: laser taggi
Ah, I see. Ok.
I'm still not.
"Piter, too, is dead."
then what would you suggest?
rather, what do you prefer?
"If for any reason you're not satisfied with our service, I hate you."
I am not a professional coder but I do know quite a bit and my guess is the answer is, "You can't. You just rant about it on /."
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
"Do you know how to find the midpoint of an array, without knowing the total # of elements"
Either I'm parsing the question wrong or it's impossible. You could poll [2N] until you hit an exception
And by polling 2N until you hit an exception, you have discovered the total number of elements, and therefor have not found the midpoint without knowing that information.
Of course, once you find the midpoint by ANY means, you pretty much know the total number of elements.
So, yes, it's impossible. You can't solve the question posed before the comma without also violating the restriction imposed after the comma.
WTF? We were getting all the oil from Iraq we needed. Still, after the war, we will still be BUYING it. You need to understand that there are NO Iraqi oil companies. Just from the US, EU and Asia. So going to war over oil is a bad point. Besides, we get more oil from Quwait and Saudi Arabia so war with Iraq to "get oil" is a really bad plan.
--
My parents went to Slashdot and all I got was this lousy sig.
I live in Riverside California which is one of the top 3 areas hit by the housing bust and illegal immigration.
My parents live in Tampa Florida which is also one of the top 3 areas adversely effected by the same economic issues.
ITs really bad here in California. As an example a year ago craigslist had 15-20 jobs listed a day for the inland empire area of California. Today its about down to 5 or 6 jobs and most of them are "Work from HOME!" and other ripoffs rather than real jobs.
At the local Moreno Valley mall there are at least 6 places that are closed or having liquidation closings. Gotchalks and Toys R US are also closing in my area. Restaurants are hurting as people eat at home rather than go out. Both my wife and I were laid off a few months ago and I only received one call for an interview for a job 70 miles away. My inlaws were laid off as well and they own a cleaning company that went bankrupt as their clients decided to cut costs by having other employees clean their offices.
Where my parents live there are 4 houses on the block that were foreclosed on the people who left could not even afford to take their junk out of the house.
Your right its isolated. But when you have to pay $3,500 a month just to exist and your rent sky rockets after the APR kicks in your screwed and spending is the first thing you stop doing as you fight for your home.
http://saveie6.com/
I remember telling a bunch of network techs, or rather, first asking them: "Do you know how to find the midpoint of an array, without knowing the total # of elements" & not a one of them could...
Perhaps next time you should ask a programmer, who is expected to know that kind of thing.
I hope you don't write cover letters the way you write slashdot comments. I wouldn't hire you just based on your lack of writing skills. I have a friend who thinks he's going to be a big swinging industry dick who writes like he's in junior high school, he's going nowhere fast. Every time he sends someone a communication he makes himself look like a complete idiot.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
"I doubt many slashdotters have a PhD in English - but evidently, neither do you." - by somersault (912633) on Tuesday July 22, @07:17AM (#24287035) Homepage
Did I EVER state I had a PHD in English? No!
I'm also not the fool telling others how to write either (minus a PHD in English) now, am I??
(You're too easy to outsmart, with your OWN words... raise your intellect around 30 points or so, & try again then... ok?)
----
"I usually read even long trogladite posts, but when they're filled with LOLBOLDCAPS I get bored quickly." - by somersault (912633) on Tuesday July 22, @07:17AM (#24287035) Homepage
Yes, once again, it appears that I was correct in my init. assessment - /. is LOADED with "ADD/ADHD" victims, lol, with the attention span of a carrot.
----
"Are you perhaps on medication at the moment?" - by somersault (912633) on Tuesday July 22, @07:17AM (#24287035) Homepage
Good lord, quit using my style ok (as that was my "comeback" to Chris Mahan) - are you SO "slow", that you have to use others' style?
(At least be original & creative (probably not possible for you, what with your 10 below plantlife IQ)).
& cut the attempt @ "psychoanalysis", because I'll want to see your PHD & license to practice... man, yet ANOTHER "slashdot sidewalk surgeon"/"quack" to the attack, & failing YET AGAIN, miserably, lol!
Heh, anything BUT seriously (because I don't take cretins that I'm easily getting the better of, seriously @ all)
CLUE - I am just having fun "busting you guys up" a bit is all. After all - Look @ some of the reactions I am getting, most of which are hilarious!
(A couple real 'frothing @ the mouth' name tossing ones (which are great, because they only let me know I am "getting the better of" those who are doing those 'raging replies', lmao... hilarious!))
Hell, most of these guys are SO weak in this kind of ribbing session, including yourself MAINLY, it's no longer even funny.
(I.E.-> It's TOO EASY to take your own words & use them against you, the sign of a POOR & SLOW brain + people that don't THINK, before they speak as well)
AND, yourself & they are trying to tell ME, "how to write"? When they don't even THINK BEFORE THEY SPEAK (including yourself, which made it very easy to bust you up with your "flavour" comment, using your OWN WORDS no less, lol)??
Hey - Give us a break.
"The only amount of technical knowledge a good manager needs is the ability to pay attention and understand when the smart people who report to him tell him what's important in their fields of expertise." - by Jah-Wren Ryel (80510) on Monday July 21, @09:10PM (#24283021)
A really GOOD manager should know the job himself and all it entails, in DETAIL, from his own knowledgebases, & not solely depending on others. Others CAN AND DO make mistakes.
So, on THAT note, it appears that you are stating:
"It's ok to be a dumbass fake that has NO clue, & being totally dependant on others, instead of their own know-how to aid in decision making, in case advisors are wrong or made a mistake, is OK too"...
They are usually PAID well enough to merit them having some clue @ least, of what it is their subordinates do, & they ought to be able to do it, themselves... what exactly justifies 6+ figure pay for them, anyhow, then, if the case is what YOU stated??? NOTHING.
Paying out that level of salary, for nothing? Does NOT make sense, period.
Well, what if you tick one of those you depend on, off, or IF that "smart advisor" makes a HUGE mistake (they happen)?
THAT KIND OF MGR. DOESN'T HAVE A FRIGGIN' CLUE, & f's things up for everyone, causing layoffs etc. (because YOUR f'ups cost money pal)
----
"Theindustry is rife with examples of the peter principle, and moving engineers into management jobs is the #1 cause." - by Jah-Wren Ryel (80510) on Monday July 21, @09:10PM (#24283021)
What a CROCK OF CRAP - again, another "pseudo study" so that some TRULY INCOMPETENT GOOFS get to keep their jobs, is about all that horseshit is, period.
Uhm, don't you REALLY mean that this nation is RIFE with the ruins caused by incompetent no minds @ the helm leading it, politically AND industrially. No questions asked. We all have eyes & ears and can see it, despite your b.s. here...
My God, that is horseshit... are you EVEN IN THIS FIELD or THIS NATION?
This nation (USA) and many other companies in it, are victims of the "NO MIND MGR. WHO HASN'T EVER SUCCESSFULLY DONE THE JOB HIMSELF HANDS ON FOR YEARS TO DECADES IN THE TRENCHES", mainly because they don't have a f'ing clue of what is going on themselves, & they are ruining it, for everyone else via their screwups.
Question: HOW DO YOU FIX SOMETHING or even begin to, IF YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND IT, IN DETAIL, YOURSELF? Well, you can "depend on others" hiring them on (raising costs mind you, Mr. Mgr., in payroll, to make up for INCOMPETENTS, in mgt. in this field that is RAMPANT, period).
----
I'd take that argument before a board of directors &/or stockholders meeting, anytime, & blow you + your silly ideas, away with it (anything to save dollars - & that's 1 area they're pretty sharp on I imagine, @ least that one, hopefully)...
Especially about hiring others to do a job YOU should have understanding of, yourself!
It's very simple, too - because payroll, costs MONEY pal. Throwing it away on a "no mind" is NOT "good sense", period.
(That's showing those stockholders you're a useless dead-weight incompetent, period, if you have to hire others to know things you SHOULD know, from having done it yourself for years to decades hands on.)
If they have any sense? They would blow out that kind of 6+ figure salary leech!
E.G.-> Do you go to doctors that have NEVER practised medicine? Sounds it...
Now - Whatever 'case studies' (which you have not presented), just some 'anecdotal evidence' of your own, you're looking at/speaking of to 'get your data', were most likely (let me guess)... written by "mgt." right?
(Listen up - stats, of ANY kind, can be 'bent & twisted' nearly ANY WAY YOU LIKE, based on sampleset! Even IF you put up some b.s. 'case study', Marketers try to pull that shit all the time... do you really think it fools me? Not.)
You do NOT put someone @ the wheel of
"Shut the fuck up, idiot." - by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 21, @10:57PM (#24283885)
Oh, hey look everyone: "It TaLkS! (My God, it talks)", lol...
&, look @ THAT reaction!
(Don't let the foam from your 'frothing reply' spatter on the other readers here, ok - have some manners!)
----
"And most of all, stop writing LOL like a teenaged girl "talking" on MSN." - by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 21, @10:57PM (#24283885)
Man - you ARE transparent aren't you? Giving away where you go to 'pickup' little girls now, freak?? Because it sounds as if you have their style all "clocked/down pat" apparently, like some 'stalker expert' might - You're giving away your own "std. practice", freak.
(Incidentally? I wrote LOL, everytime I did laugh my ass off @ you & your friends here - & I am sure everyone reading had a good laugh also, & if you don't like it? Don't read it)
----
"You're a moron." - by Anonymous Coward on Monday July 21, @10:57PM (#24283885)
LOL, well... you? You're OBVIOUSLY a "literary genius", right (with NO PHD IN ENGLISH once again)??
it will decrease, increase, then decrease again and then increase.. wait a minute goldman sachs is just stating the obvious, that things vary over time!
"I'll accept that in some languages a "for" loop has a fixed limit, even though I can't think of any language offhand for which this is true" - by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 22, @10:31AM (#24289057)
Here is an example:
For X:= 0 to 150 do Ch:= StringReplace(Ch, ' ', '', Flags);
Question - Know what language that is? Object Pascal.
(Having the upper bound (amount of elements & the midpoint of said array), helps in MANY areas, sorts/searches etc. et al - which was the point of my discussion above, & HOW you can determine it - if you can't grasp that, then that is your problem...)
"But your confusion of the concepts of "array" and "linked list" is a schoolboy error." - by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 22, @10:31AM (#24289057)
LOL, they can ALL use midpoint & total # of elements ranges, for things I noted above (searches, sorts, etc.)...
True, or not?
And, whether you KNOW it or not, many things are arrays, just derived FROM the type array.
"You'd flunk any CS course and/or any job interview by not understanding this." - by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 22, @10:31AM (#24289057)
LOL, funny, I have 2 degrees in this field, & have had Microsoft approach me, not I they, for work... for 1 thing, in addition to 16 yrs. of hands-on experience coding as well, for Fortune 100-500 companies plus smallish ones too.
(So much for YOUR assessment)
"In most of the languages that anyone actually uses, there's a function to return the length of the array, so that's the easiest" - by story645 (1278106) * on Tuesday July 22, @01:16PM (#24291511)
I actually described HOW the midpoint is found is all, & why (for what, some examples)... BY HAND, algorithmically, &, w/ out using a prebuilt function.
Because, "believe it or not", INLINED code, OR hand-written code (if proper algorithm) even, is FASTER than calling out to other functions that are prebuilt... this is called INLINING code, & yes, it works.
AND, there are many things that ARE derived from arrays, which was my point:
(Special cases, even, like strings, for example (character arrray really))
As another example of a statement I made earlier, which was 'twisted' somehow by the other A/C, as me saying they're "the exact same"... lol!
(The other "A/C" failed to grasp my point here, apparently)
My point being?
Well, finding the midpoint of arrays, linked lists, or strings even, can be VERY useful (for finding the total # of elements by hand, OR, for searches/sorts, etc. et al)...
This is all.
It's funny how the OTHER "A/C" here TRIED to say I said that linked lists & arrays are the SAME thing (they're not, but, in principal they are, & have many of the same attributes (pointers etc.) - I was merely illustrating how to do what you noted in a pseudocode function, by hand), because, I'd like to see WHERE I SAID THEY WERE "THE EXACT SAME"...
One thing I dislike?
Having "words put in my mouth", that I never said. That is lame guys, really REALLY lame.
"Ok, how do you find the midpoint of an array without knowing the total # of elements?" - by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 23, @03:14PM
Boy, you guys really DO have "ADD/ADHD" here, don't you? Skimming my man, you're guilty of it... I already answered that, here:
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=621143&cid=24284011
See there, it is near the top!
Ah, what the hell, here it is, again:
2 pointers, one always being double the size of the other, & when the "double-sized one" can no longer advance vectoring thru the array?
You have your midpoint...
(Also, & thus, by doubling that? THE TOTAL # of Elements (changes some for dynamic arrays, which Pascal didn't have afaik, until Delphi 4.x or so, because you have to constantly recheck arrays that resize (that, or perform the same add/subtract on your total number of arrays elements, if you add/subtract elements (your pick, depends on conditions)))
This is not only useful for arrays!
It's also useful for linked lists, lists, stringlists, strings, & other structures that deal in storing data in ram (in sorts/searches, & yes, other things too... & truly preferably, BOTH combined (as I have always found it is simpler AND FASTER (with some sorts for instance) to search lists that are sorted (yes, some overhead, but works) because SOME sorts work a HELL OF A LOT FASTER, with sorted data).
NOW - I also did NOT like how one other "A/C" tried to state I said that an array & linked list "ARE THE SAME THING", they're clearly not, but... do share many "common attributes" though, & can benefit from knowing total # of elements AND midpoints of said elements too (for things like sorts/searches etc.) - trying to put words others said into their mouths, is lame fellas... totally LAME.
"Is that some kind of trick question or are you just making up bullshit? There is no correct answer to that question." -by bjourne (1034822) on Tuesday July 22, @05:30AM (#24286245)
OMG... NOW, I am UTTERLLY convinced that either:
1.) /.'ers are STUPID, or just uneducated in some fairly BASIC datastructures coursework algorithms
OR
2.) Are only network techs @ best.
The answer was put up by myself... here:
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=621143&cid=24284011
And, also a couple times here more in replies... TO THAT SAME TYPE OF IGNORANT REPLY, BECAUSE THERE *IS* AN ANSWER (for anyone that can think that is, obviously you cannot)
(I.E./E.G.=> Using 2 pointers, 1 advancing @ twice the rate/size of the other, & when the larger cannot advance anymore? You have the midpoint & with that? THE TOTAL # of elements (in a fixed size array))
Otherwise, in a DYNAMIC array (resizing one), you have to 'recalc' it again as it resizes... that, or add/subtract from total # (and midpoint value) the exact same as you took from (OR) added to, from the first array prior to resising it as to its total # of elements (AND midpoint too).
Man... sometimes? I read GREAT stuff here... there are some SERIOUS brainiacs here (John Carmack being one)...
HOWEVER - Others??
Ah... Only makes me realize WHY we have such a f'd up infrastructure in computing (as well as bugs in code)...
I.E.-> We have largely undereducated wannabes @ the helm, of companies & departments... and nations.
That is along with the incompetent mgt. that hires them (because they too, don't KNOW SIMPLE STUFF LIKE THIS (finding midpoint of array, & why/how, PLUS WHY IT IS USEFUL)... & that is just 1 tiny example - the mgt. should be able to spot guys that can't do stuff like this (easy really), right off... why can't they?
Hell - THEY CAN'T UNDERSTAND IT THEMSELVES IS WHY! Hence, my original "bitch" here... having seen it TOO many times, & seen companies collapse or fire people to make up for the expensive screwups that type of undereducated "I don't need to know this stuff, I will hire someone (and, cost the company more yet again) who does for me, to make up for my lameness" crap...
This is what happens, when you have 'fratboys' taking control of a nation or company - their pals they hire are dolts too.
I asked the network techs that question, just to show myself, what I told the young student - what the diff. is between actual comp. sci. possessing degreed folks, vs. those with certs only (or clueless mgt. that do NOT have years to decades of hands on professional experience of their subordinates)...
"I hope you don't write cover letters the way you write slashdot comments." - by drinkypoo (153816) on Tuesday July 22, @04:05PM (#24294243) Homepage
Hey, fool - is this my "last will & testament"? Is it a LEGAL correspondence??
NO. When I need "absolutely perfect grammar" (relative term by ALL means, everyone's a critic (AND, people's ideas of "perfection", vary)) I do so...
E.G.-> Can you tell me what a "perfect resume" looks like? Odds are you cannot, because I for one, may not LIKE your "idea of perfect", get it?
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"I wouldn't hire you just based on your lack of writing skills." - by drinkypoo (153816) on Tuesday July 22, @04:05PM (#24294243) Homepage
So - You keep your "illusions" of "perfect grammar", per my above statement! Apparently, ONLY YOUR IDEAS OF PERFECT, are perfect... coming from a coding perspective and talking about code? It is ALL relative, & many times based on the task @ hands, for what suits what.
From mathematics: Many times, there isn't just "1 solution" but a RANGE of POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS... but then, I don't expect undereducated mgt. idiots to grasp that either (they should be able to though - most business courses @ LEAST make them take pre-calc or linear optimization, which IS WHAT THAT COURSE IS ABOUT!)
However/Again - I'd like to see your PhD too, in English, ok? Not that it'd matter, I've only been speaking & writing this language for over 40 yrs. & funny part about this is, this:
You seemed to have been able to comprehend what I wrote... otherwise, why reply with a specific quote? You're obviously stupid, giving yourself away, on that note alone (if my writing was "unintelligble", why reply? You wouldn't be able to, say if it was "encrypted by improper grammar" for whatever THAT means, a purely relative term).
Go take your meds for dyslexia, add/adhd, ok? If there was a drug for logic, I'd say take that too, but there is not afaik.
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"I have a friend who thinks he's going to be a big swinging industry dick who writes like he's in junior high school, he's going nowhere fast. Every time he sends someone a communication he makes himself look like a complete idiot." - by drinkypoo (153816) on Tuesday July 22, @04:05PM (#24294243) Homepage
If he's dealing with you? He's in trouble, is all I can say. In comp. sci.? It's NOT about "english grammar" fool - it's about code that works, FIRST, & then code that works better (@ "tuning time" for said code - provided its allotted).
LOL, unbelievable. Another "minus a Phd" wannabe English professor (& comp. sci. CLUELESS manager, obviously)
Funniest part about YOUR REPLY IS what I said above though - if my words were "utterly unintelligble"? You wouldn't have been able to reply, especially with a quote.
"He means linked list." - by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 22, @09:08AM (#24288013)
I saw the example with 2 pointers use arrays, can't you read? I tried it, and it works. He's right about that. I put it on paper, drawing it out upon it being suggested to me to do so. It worked. I kept one pointer advancing at twice the size (speed) of the other, & when the bigger one couldn't move any farther, the smaller pointer was in the middle (mid point). Too bad you have to try to put words in others' mouths, you're wrong, it works (try it yourself).
"The correct answer to that question is "no, and it isn't possible"" - by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 23, @04:08PM
Correction - it IS possible, how to do so, is below (in URL, or example below):
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=621143&cid=24309979
Read that, OR just below (array example), & eat your words!
I.E.-> It IS possible to find the midpoint of an array, of which you have NO IDEA what the total # of elements is in it beforehand, mind you!
(AND, even its total # of elements with that info., because you'd need that midpoint to get the total # of elements, w/ out knowing the total # of array elements on hand in the init. fixed size array (or otherwise) beforehand, with just a LITTLE more work)
HOW? Well, simply by using 2 pointers vectoring thru an array!
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I.E.-> 1 pointer always being DOUBLE the size of the other... & when the larger one can no longer advance?
You have your fixed size array midpoint (even IF you don't know the total # of elements beforehand) & that midpoint's useful for sorts, searches, & many other tasks (limit of imagination almost)...
QUESTION: Now, DOUBLE that midpoint, & you SHOULD technically have your total # of array elements (even if you don't know them beforehand in a fixed size array, & in a dynamic/resizing array, you can recalculate that & get it again, & again, & again (infinitum)).
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"It does sound like bullshit." - by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 23, @04:08PM
To those who are undereducated in comp. sci.? Maybe... not to someone with an actual degree & many years of hands on experience... as, it does work. Try it yourself, and see. The comp. engineering student grasped it, but somehow?? I doubt YOU will, unfortunately, even with an example given above.
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(Unbelievable - this has to be the 4th OR 5th time here now where I had to show you dolts HOW this is done using arrays (fixed or dynamic) - you people either SKIM, missing critical points, or cannot think (or, are just plain stupid OR undereducated in this art & science))
Actually? I expect this cretin loudmouth to STILL not be able to comprehend the above... he ought to draw it on paper, so his dullard mind can "grasp it", you know... ala "POWERPOINT PRESENTATIONS" the favored tool of "mgt."... lol!
Put it in pictures if you have to, you know - how cavemen taught their kids how to hunt (in case they didn't make it back alive from a hunt) - I use that, as an example, because your "neanderthal level of IQ" SHOULD be able to comprehend, that much, I hope... lol!
WoW... the funniest part is this - the "registered users" here like to "lord it over/put down" us A/C's, but, as you can see? These "registered users" are pretty dumb @ times too (well, let's just be "politically correct" (the bane of society today) & say they're 'ignorant' instead)... hilarious.
"For someone with a mere 16 years in industry, a degree in maths, and 26 years of programming, can you enlighten me as to the answer to this?" - by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 22, @08:17AM (#24287517)
I do so, for the 5th/6th time here now, for dolts like you... below:
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""Do you know how to find the midpoint of an array, without knowing the total # of elements"" - by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 22, @08:17AM (#24287517)
Unbelievable - the answer was posted by myself, several times here (try reading a bit FIRST, before shooting your mouth off, ok? It'll save you some embarassment next time)
Ah... here goes again:
E.G.-> By using 2 pointers in an array, it's simple!
I.E.-> 1 pointer always being DOUBLE the size of the other, as they BOTH vector thru the array concerned...
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SIMPLE E.G.->
Take an array, doesn't matter what length, because you DON'T NEED THAT INFORMATION TO FIND ITS MIDPOINT! 1-N (say, 1-4 to make it easy) & draw this on paper:
Make the first pointer go to 1 (making you have to move the second 'doublesized' pointer go to 2, since it is double the first pointer's size)... then, move the first pointer to 2, making the second 'doublesized' one, go to 4 -> Continuing this, until the "doublesized" 2nd pointer can no longer advance... tell us what you find!
CLUE: When the 2nd pointer 'doubling' abends/errs? Your first "1/2 sized pointer"?? It THEN HAS the MIDPOINT of an array, regardless of whether you KNOW the total # of array elements, or not...
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"You could poll [2N] until you hit an exception but this doesn't work" - by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday July 22, @08:17AM (#24287517)
OMG - lol!
The exception IS the signal... &, what signals your 1st ("1/2 sized pointer") IS @ the midpoint, bullshitter/dumbass, when the attempt to DOUBLESIZE/DOUBLESPEED the 2nd pointer & it FAILS/ABENDS/ERRS out!
(ONCE MORE, PER THE ABOVE - Simply because the "1/2 sized" first pointer will be @ the midpoint, when the exception HITS ON THE 2nd "DOUBLESIZED/DOUBLEFAST" pointer WHEN YOU TRY TO 'DOUBLE IT' vs. the 1st pointer's 'size', & when that fails, in doubling size of 2nd pointer?? 1st pointer IS @ MIDPOINT OF THE ARRAY)
Exception handlers (even structured ones built into compilers) are not just that, showing errs/abends, but... they CAN be used for 'signals' & quite useful @ times (such as THIS VERY ONE)
Mind you - you can also OVERRIDE 'std. compiler exceptions handlers' with say, raising exceptions of your own (custom ones), or using Try..Except in say, ObjectPascal/Delphi...
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HOWEVER: THE Biggest dumbass of all, is whoever MODDED YOU UP, as "insightful"... lol, had to have been mgt.!
APK
"So, yes, it's impossible." - by bonehead (6382) on Tuesday July 22, @02:24PM (#24292675)
OMG - NO, for the 7th time here now, it is NOT!
(& hitting the exception(s) - which you CAN 'take advantage of here' (you'll NEED to in fact), via raising your OWN CUSTOM ONE (or using protected blocks, such as Try..Except (Delphi)), when attempting to double the 2nd 'twice as large/fast' pointer? THAT very exception happening, GIVES YOU THE ANSWER to the MIDPOINT OF THE ARRAY, in the first pointer's positional value):
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Simple I.E. (from the array example I gave) -> By vectoring 2 pointers thru said array, 1 pointer always moving at 'twice the size/speed' of the other, yields it... when the larger can no longer advance? You have your midpoint... & it's pretty simple to do, the comp. engineering student even put it into 'pseudocode' here (for the most part).
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NOW - as to HOW 'abend/errs' via exceptions help here (because you WILL hit them in the "2nd larger/faster pointer" used)? Well - Ever heard of "structured exceptions handlers"?? MOST modern compilers have them 'built in' & yes, they signal errs/abends... but, they're YOUR PAL here, in this case!
YOU CAN OVERRIDE THEM, easily...
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E.G.-> When DOUBLING the 'size/speed/position' of that 2nd 'doublesized' pointer, & it fails? The 1st smaller (1/2 of 2nd pointer positionally sized) pointer IS AT MIDPOINT (doubling it gives the ENTIRE SIZE OF THE ARRAY, in its number of elements by position) & yes, you WILL hit a "structured exception" in MOST compilers...
HOWEVER, this is NOT a bad thing here - in fact, it's KEY to getting your answer!
Why?
By 'Raising your OWN custom exception handler'... that aids in this! HOW?? Using the exceptions you hit (&, you WILL) here, to your advantage:
Using reserved word structures (protected structure) via Try..Except in Delphi/Object Pascal for example, which allows for this... there is also exception raising (raise exception) too, in that particular language/compiler, as an example thereof... other compilers & languages have similar abilities + constructs (for using errors/abends to your advantage, OR, just to create your own (for logging them, for example)).
There, once an attempt @ doubling the position of the 1st pointer (for the 2nd pointers' positional value) & it fails?
You would STOP the std. compiler exception, & assign the first "1/2 sized pointer" the midpoint value, simple, then break out of the function, using it again, as needed. At that point you have your answer (1st smaller pointer HAS MIDPOINT OF ARRAY)...
Too easy, too simple - for a "non-cretin" (non fake in this field, to be 'nice' about it), that is.
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Man - you guys ought to go for comp. sci. degrees ( ESPECIALLY prior to shooting your mouths off, especially on TOPICS WHERE YOU HAVE NO IDEA/CLUE )
APK
P.S.=> I mean, hey - based on your erroneous replies here, you left me NO OUT, but to say that (don't like it? TOUGH - I heard a LOT WORSE directed MY WAY here, by you guys )...
Seriously: You make this website look BAD - @ least look @ the other replies here, first, before you shoot your mouths off & look stupid, because I had to post this ( for your OWN stupid sakes' ) @ least 9-10 times here...
A truly "REAL STATEMENT" on the class of SOME of the posters here, on /., by all means ( UNFORTUNATELY - Thank Goodness the likes of John Carmack posts here on occasion, he is one of this websites' "saving graces", @ times... )! ... apk
"I do know quite a bit" - by KGIII (973947) on Tuesday July 22, @01:45PM (#24292015) Homepage
Well, it's GOOD to be confident, but sometimes... it can be a downfall... prepare to learn more, & be well, 'disillusioned' just a WEE bit (& my reply here, though a bit "brusque" @ times, is a LOT nicer than it was to those that tossed names my way - you did not, I respond now in kind, etc. et al, so here goes) :
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"and my guess is the answer is, "You can't. You just rant about it on /." - by KGIII (973947) on Tuesday July 22, @01:45PM (#24292015) Homepage
Well, maybe YOU can't... but, I can (& so did the computer engineering student, via pseudocode of my algorithm I told him of)!
So, that all "said & aside" - By the way? THANKS!
( For what?? Well, for you helping in proving my point - there are TOO many people in this field, especially in mgt. positions, that do NOT belong there, period ).
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"but I do know quite a bit" - by KGIII (973947) on Tuesday July 22, @01:45PM (#24292015) Homepage
Well... ok: YOU do NOT know as much as YOU * THINK * you know, evidently!
E.G.-> It's pretty simple stuff actually, for finding the midpoint of an array, even WHEN you don't know the total # of elements beforehand!
( It is a technique (finding array midpoint w/ out knowing total # of array elements first beforehand) that is very, VERY useful in searches & sorts, for example - binary searches for example DEPEND on knowing the "1/2 way mark" & MORE THAN 1 SEARCH TYPE (or, variant thereof) GET HUGE PERFORMANCE BOOSTS from sorted arrays they may vector thru while processing them... )
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E.G. -> So, even IF you don't know the total # of elements in said array, BEFOREHAND, it IS pretty easy to find the midpoint & WITH THAT, the total # of elements in the array too (Again, for the Nth time (probably 10th++ by now) here now):
I.E.-> By vectoring 2 pointers thru said array, 1 pointer always moving at 'twice the size/speed' of the other, yields it... when the larger can no longer advance? You have your midpoint (1st ptr position)... & it's pretty simple to do, the comp. engineering student even put it into 'pseudocode' here (for the most part).
SIMPLE E.G.-> Take the numbers 1 to 4 (using a PUNY fixed size array here, but, you can substite in "N" for 4, & use ANY number pretty much), try it (put them into an array, draw it on paper IF YOU HAVE TO, & try what I said (nice simple example, for 'mgt. & network tech cretins @ slashdot', ok?))
Hit an exception (and you WILL, but it is what you WANT to occur (not ALL 'exceptions' are bad, mind you, & can be used as signals/events (one you CAN USE, to your advantage (I use them for logging things @ times)), AND, ones as THIS case))?
Use try..except protection (Delphi-ObjectPascal, that is a "PROTECTED BLOCK" of code, & other languages have this type of thing too), OR raise exception (another delphi construct/reserved word set) that other compilers have also, that function as analogs to this (try..except &/or raise exception (for custom exception handling))!
There, then assign the value of position from the 1st 'smaller' pointer as the array midpoint there, & 'break' out of the function.
SIMPLE!
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Man - "unbelieveable"... IF you can't grasp it MENTALLY alone, then - put it on paper & TRY it, with the 'SIMPLE E.G.->' above, ok?
THAT, in & of itself, OUGHT TO WORK for making it "sink in", kind of like how cavemen did hunt drawings for their kids to know how to hunt, just in case they didn't survive a hunt...
I use that as an example (no offense to the caveman on T.V. stereotype, in the commercials for "so simple a caveman could do it", lol), so it can 'sink in', even into mgt.'s "dullard neanderthalic thought proces
Dude! You are insane. I like it. Anyhow, I will read through it all and I will actually do the process but it is late here. I just figured I'd respond to let you know that you're a raving lunatic and I appreciate that if nothing else. I'm always willing to learn new things so don't get me wrong (and don't forget my quantifier about my only knowing some).
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
You seem to be confusing linked lists and arrays. If you have an array with a marker at the end (there's that extra information I mentioned you needed) then you don't need to piss about with two pointers; just count the elements and divide by two.
Most bugs I fix are the result of dumbasses (like yourself) making unwarranted assumptions and solving the problem they'd like to have rather than the problem they've actually got.
"If you have an array with a marker at the end" - by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 25, @11:10AM
Man, reading comprehension is NOT a strong point here, is it? First off, The example used was arrays, and his statement was that you did not have the total number of elements present in it (that is unknown & thus the end is unknown, stupid).
The example used specifically stated you didn't even have to KNOW what the endpoint was or total number of array elements.
Learn to read, because no EOF marker is required (or other type of trailer record) nor knowing the total number of elements (that was his constraint and it certainly proved to be beyond the ken of slashdot readers here).
So much for the 'intellectual levels' or education of respondents here.
The comment I replied to (written by you?) said "I.E.-> 1 pointer always being DOUBLE the size of the other... & when the larger one can no longer advance?" What does "can no longer advance" mean? If you have a C-style array and you don't know the length and you don't have a marker (aka a sentinel) at the end, then a pointer will happily advance past the end of the array. Without the length or a marker you CANNOT determine the end of the array hence you CANNOT find the midpoint. Have you never heard of buffer overrun errors?
"Dude! You are insane. I like it." - by KGIII (973947) on Thursday July 24, @01:24AM (#24315061) Homepage
Not insane, just telling it, how it is... you CAN find the midpoint of an array, without knowing its total # of elements, and thru the midpoint, the total amount of elements too... pretty simple really, IF you think about it (or, try it, per my simple example).
And, you'll like it MORE, once you see that it actually REALLY works, too... & believe-it-or-not, it & things like it, lend themselves to other problems in this field, AND SOLVING THEM, too!
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"Anyhow, I will read through it all and I will actually do the process but it is late here. I just figured I'd respond to let you know that you're a raving lunatic and I appreciate that if nothing else." - by KGIII (973947) on Thursday July 24, @01:24AM (#24315061) Homepage
LOL, thanks (I guess) - but, if you see the flick I am talking about ("BRUCE LEE: The Dragon Story"), you'll know what I mean... especially vs. "Johnny Sun", both times... because ALL OF YOUR "Johnny Sun" wannabes here, are just showing themselves here, as that - revealing themselves as such, vs. their protests vs. my actual PROOF in how easily, this is done (finding midpoint of array with unknown total # of elements beforehand, & also, that total # of elements too, as a by-product)
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"I'm always willing to learn new things so don't get me wrong (and don't forget my quantifier about my only knowing some)." - by KGIII (973947) on Thursday July 24, @01:24AM (#24315061) Homepage
You said "you knew quite a bit" actually, verbatim... &, you probably do.
However, like I said before, earlier to you? You will NOW, know more... a useful more, especially IF you write code, or do, one day.
(YOU, in particular, were a LOT cooler than most replying here, & thus, imo - you'll go pretty far, because of that. At least you're 'open minded' rather than those who were like "THIS CAN'T BE DONE", how many times here? A dozen?? lol... man!)
APK
P.S.=> See, I too, was shown this, years ago (more than a decade in fact, now that I thinka about it)... while studying for my 2nd degree around this field, & never forgot it... it's useful, more times than I'd like to admit, & things that are VERY like it, because of having seen THIS very thing before, grew stronger too, because I became more used to such a pattern of thought... apk
While I can relate to your rather disgruntled opinions on IT in general, your style of expressing it unfortunately overpowers the content, thereby coming across as "noise" to most people, except perhaps to myself and a few others. Your threads have certainly been entertaining on this rather boring Friday at work. :) Thanks for the read.
"The comment I replied to (written by you?) said "I.E.-> 1 pointer always being DOUBLE the size of the other... & when the larger one can no longer advance?" What does "can no longer advance" mean? If you have a C-style array and you don't know the length and you don't have a marker (aka a sentinel) at the end, then a pointer will happily advance past the end of the array. Without the length or a marker you CANNOT determine the end of the array hence you CANNOT find the midpoint. Have you never heard of buffer overrun errors?" - by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 25, @02:21PM (#24338901)
Yes, I have, & they're the bane of that language, & SHOULD be protected against, but often, aren't... causing ALL KINDS of shenanignas in security for instance.
That is when the use of abends/errs, work, to YOUR advantage...
Ever heard of Try..Except, or raise exception?
Apparently not, though that was listed here several times as HOW this is done (can/could be done)...
Man! read, ReAd, READ... & incidentally?
The example language used was Object Pascal (delphi), not C or C++... Once more - LEARN to READ, instead of arguing here pointlessly on YOUR part, @ this point, because the solution, works.
Hell, draw it on PAPER, as was suggested, since apparently it is "TOO MUCH" for you to comprehend... using an array, 1-N, doesn't MATTER what size/# of elements (which is WHY this works to find the midpoint of an array of which you have NO IDEA how many elements it contains), try 1-4 elements - send 1 pointer thru @ 1/2 the size of the other (or conversely, the 2nd one moving 2x as fast thru said array)... tell us what you find.
Quit being resistant, try it.
"The example language used was Object Pascal." The original question didn't specify any language. None of the posts since (except mine) have mentioned a particular language.
If you are using Object Pascal you do know the length of the array so why would you walk through it? Are you retarded?
"Most bugs I fix are the result of dumbasses (like yourself) making unwarranted assumptions and solving the problem they'd like to have rather than the problem they've actually got." - by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 24, @06:42AM (#24316305)
Mr. A/C, I'd take that comment back, because @ this point You are the one looking very stupid in merely saying what you have and which I quoted above. It is funny because I just tried the example noted and now guess who the dumbass is? You are. I tried what the other AC poster suggested in using a small array I drew on paper with 4 elements. When the first pointer went to 1, the 2nd doublefast pointer is at 2, when the first smaller pointer moved to 2, the 2nd larger one was at 4. Eventually when I tried to move the smaller pointer to 3, the 2nd larger one fails, and that's when error structured err handlers in a compiler would stop you anyhow, via list index out of beounds type errors (I often use listboxes as a dynamic array, for debugging so I can see the movements of items thru arrays/lists, and dyanmic arrays and listboxes function pretty much the same anyhow). Now if you hit exceptions like you note then simply overriding the std. structured exceptions handler with a custom exception handler of your own should take care of that which you say happens in structured exceptions via compiler error handlers. That use of custom exception handlers allows one in this problem to set the midpoint as the value of the smaller pointer's position, which will be at the midpoint of an array (even if you don't know the total number of elements in said array). Draw it on paper as suggested, you will see, he is not full of it, and it works.
""The example language used was Object Pascal." The original question didn't specify any language. None of the posts since (except mine) have mentioned a particular language." - by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 25, @04:59PM (#24341393)
The language used wouldn't matter (though I did say Object Pascal &/or Delphi here a few times in fact, so read next time, before shooting your mouth off).
This set of posts from myself?
It was MORE about concepts & patterns of thought, proving a point (some folks need to learn this stuff better, especially mgt. & yes, their subordinates at times) more than anything, via a principal/technique, that extends to any language... and, is used in MANY things (binary searches, & some sorts even - need AND USE, the midpoint of a dataset).
The technique works, and drawing it on paper shows that alone. Using custom exceptions handlers overrides structured err handlers, & that is what you need here!
Ah, "let me guess" - NOW, finally?
You tried it as others have here (albeit with CUSTOM EXCEPTION handlers of your own (ala Try..Except or Raise Exception in Delphi Object Pascal, or other languages' analogs) which is what I was waiting for others to say, & they did, very good) and, it worked, right?? I just showed this all to a NON-PROGRAMMER, & he even said it:
"YOU WANT THE ERROR TO HAPPEN HERE SO YOU CAN USE IT TO YOUR ADVANTAGE IN THIS PROBLEM"
Yes, & you can USE IT, to your advantage (as an event flag, much as how trailer records or eof markers work).
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Apparently, for all your "big talk" & name tossing, which I now quote below?
"Most bugs I fix are the result of dumbasses (like yourself) making unwarranted assumptions and solving the problem they'd like to have rather than the problem they've actually got." - by Anonymous Coward on Friday July 25, @04:59PM (#24341393)
The only "bugs" you need to fix, are the ones in your CLOSED & trailer record/EOF dependant mind, apparently - you are the one with "egg on your face" per that little quoted tidbit from you, just above THIS line from me!
Eat those words, & tell us all - HOW DO THEY TASTE (the flavor of defeat, right?)
(I very easily NOW, could call you the exact thing you called ME - but, somehow? I don't think it's needed, you did the job, for me).
APK
P.S.=> "GUNG FU" - It's more than a system of fighting: IT'S A SYSTEM OF THOUGHT!
(In the end, I hope @ the very least, you now know that all 'errs/abends' are not always just that, but flags you can use, much as was stated EOF or trailer records function (& you seem TOO dependent on))... apk
Alright, I think (and don't quote me on this) that I can actually confirm *my* findings. I use a lot of open source PHP scripts that are full blown applications if you ask me. I admit that I had a head start because I know the project and, well, it *looks* like you're right. You are still as insane as you've ever been but I'm still as appreciative as always. My email is kgiii *at* kgiii *dot* info if you want yell at me some more.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
His way shows how that marker you talk about is found without using the pre-made method. That may have been the point of showing how that is done without having to be dependent on any object's properties and showing some thought (on how that object's count method is arrived at). He was correct about 1 thing and that is that no one here could figure it out any more than the networkers he asked.
Proving you cannot really THINK like a programmer & are dependent on Object.Property Method, rather than being able to design what goes on BEHIND the Property & Method, yourself, due to your inability to answer a fairly simple question (how to find midpoint of arrays without knowing their total number of elements beforehand). That's what I drew from this entire discussion! Even here, it seems too many people either do NOT know what is going on at a programmatic level, or, are so dependent on controls and prebuilt compiler functionality (natively or via addons) they would not be very effective without them. Controls do not always solve problems.
Oh man that's some of the dumbest shit ever posted on slashdot. Your solution is 1) wrong, 2) ridiculously inefficient, 3) fails horribly in non-safe languages. My condolences to the people that have had to work with you.
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