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New Olympics Scoring: No More Perfect 10.0
Dekortage writes "If you watch the Olympics gymnastics this year, you may be confused by the new scoring system which will let athletes score 14, 17, or even higher. The new rules are 'heavy on math' and employ two panels of judges: one for technical difficulty, which adds points up from a score of zero; the other for execution and technique, which starts at 10.0 and subtracts for errors. The two numbers are then combined for the final score. As one judge put it, 'The system rewards difficulty. But the mistakes are also more costly.' The new rules were adopted after South Korea protested a scoring at the 2004 Olympics." Now I'm sure that no Slashdot reader will intentionally watch any "sport" that has judges determine the winner, but their wives/girlfriends might seize control of the remote because they want to know who is the best at that ribbon-twirling thing.
And people wonder why there is a perception of sexism in technical fields.
I just wait for someone to tell me there are hot chicks in skin tight clothes doing something. Otherwise, I could care less.
Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
Where is America's perfect 12?
You would think they could have just increased the floating point size to 10.00 instead!
I'll wait for ladies Beach Volleyball instead.
The problem with socialism is that they always run out of other people's money. - Margaret Thatcher
Is Beijing controlling even this aspect of the Olympics? I thought censoring of free speech and the media was the only thing they were censoring!
India's New Cheap Fuel-less Bike
I intentionally watched just such a sport in my teen years. This was mostly because I had a crush on Shannon Miller, but still.
Not a typewriter
She can "seize" the remote when she prys it from my cold dead hands.
The US government have made it clear that we have no inalienable rights; any we do not defend vigorously will be taken.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wife
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girlfriend
Cruise TT
No single male would ever switch the gymnastics on and watch a bunch of young ladies do physical exercise in leotards.
In other news, the last porn site finally died, citing a "lack of market" for its product.
how about martial arts... last time I checked they are scored by judges...
Thanks to file sharing, I purchase more CDs
Thanks to the RIAA, I buy them used...
>Wives/girlfriends?
This is ./ YOU INSENSITIVE CLOD!
So boxing and freestyle snow-boarding (or any event where style is judged) don't count as sports?
hmmm....
What is to prevent me for coming up with some crazy impossible routine that would give a starting score of 20 points? Then, just sitting down and doing nothing so that my "execution" score would be 0, but I would still have the extremely high 20 point score.
Now I'm sure that no Slashdot reader will intentionally watch the Olympics
There. Fixed that for you. You're welcome.
we are not in 19th century anymore. we already have discovered the approximate limits of human body. so why should i care if someone increases the world record in some field from 9.125 to 9.124 seconds ? and that is if some record is broken. if not, people get medals. they compete, some win some lose, and some get medals. so ? life IS a competition these days. we're having more than we ask for. we dont need to watch competition in our leisure time too.
and with all the shitty stunt china pulls, in tibet, in darfur, suppressing bloggers, olympics are all the while less attractive.
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Someone wake me up when robot fighting is in the Olympics already. Or when fencing is done with real light sabers.
Why the need to throw in the condescending misogynist comment, Taco? What does it have to do with math or sports? Can we moderate you offtopic flamebait?
Sure, the 2004 Olympics (and the next Winter Olympics perhaps even more so) contained judging that didn't necessarily reward the 'best' contestant. But that's part of the sport; it's not about being the 'best', which is pretty well impossible to define except in straightforward running/throwing events. It's about getting the highest score.
Nobody really thinks Tour de France cyclists don't store blood and take drugs; part of the game is the tradeoff between higher performance and higher chance of getting disqualified. Look at the way football is played in south america; taking a fall is just seen as part of the game, a judgement call like any other with particular risks and rewards. Argentina beat England in 1986 by pushing the ball in the net by hand; that may mean they won by taking a particular risk, but it doesn't mean they didn't win. They won the game of 'being allowed the most goals, by whatever means', which is the game they were actually playing.
I don't think the answer is to change the scoring. The answer is to take a more holistic approach, and say: "Ok, he was maybe the second best at *gymnastics*. But he was the best at *getting points for gymnastics*!"
Whence? Hence. Whither? Thither.
2 + 2 = 5 For very large values of 2.
http://www.allen-poole.com/
Now I'm sure that no Slashdot reader will intentionally watch any "sport" that has judges determine the winner, but their wives/girlfriends might seize control of the remote because they want to know who is the best at that ribbon twirling thing.
First, if you can't appreciate the beauty and artistry in judged events, then you're missing something wonderful. From the guys doing iron crosses on the rings (which makes my shoulders hurt sympathetically) to the girls seeming to ignore gravity, there's something there to move any soul.
Second, my wife was a college swimmer and completed Army Airborne training. She's about as into ribbon twirling things as I presume girls are into you.
Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
Yes, and I didn't like the implication that any /. geek would not be able to override a TV remote.
Are you saying that our gymnasts now go to eleven?
"Now I'm sure that no Slashdot reader will intentionally watch any "sport" that has judges determine the winner"
Oh, but I will... even though I don't like that part of things.
I like the ski jumping / flying stuff. Never understood why style points would count except as a tie break when two people jumped the same distance.
And I will watch the occasional fight but there, at least, it is possible that the judges will not determine things.
all the best,
drew
FreeMusicPush If you want to see more Free Music made, listen to Free
That's OK, I'm not watching the 2008 (aka '1936') Olympics.
[Insert pithy quote here]
Womens' gymnasties is the ONLY olympic event worth watching. Just not while my wife's around!
I wish Svetlana Boginskaya was still competing... tasty morsel, that one.
Eloi are stupid, throw morlocks at them!
I get to use my slide rule again!
Task Mangler
The one with the highest score.
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
isn't restricted just to the Olympics - though it's sad to see it happening.
Look at all (american) professional sports. Every time they're in a slump, some "rule change" comes along to bump scores. Basketball got laxer and laxer on obvious rules violations (watch any of the running leaps a "slam dunk" guy takes). Football implemented letting q-backs throw the ball into the stands. Baseball juiced up the ball itself, but thankfully drew the line on allowing metal bats.
And it's not even restricted to physical sports. Look at a pinball table today - you could easily chop off the last 3 digits of the score, because they never read anything meaningful anyways. Look at the numbers for damage ratings in "rpgs" like the Final Fantasy series - you used to start with characters doing 5-6 points of damage a hit, now you do 500-1000 and go from there.
Well, the Spinal Tap judges decided that there would be a better score than a perfect 10 - a score that would demonstrate even more technical precision and execution; that score is 11.
Why not just call it a perfect 10? Because this score goes to 11.
But to the point of the new scoring mechanism, why not just take the highest possible score and apply a scoring factor that results in a score of 10? All other scores would then be calculated using the new formula multiplied by this scoring factor.
Boy, that would take too much effort and probably $1-$2 million to pay a management consulting firm to perform an audit to ensure that the scoring factor wouldn't result in errant scores. Forget it.
-- When life gives you lemons, drink beer.
Surely there are plenty of geeks out there that recognise that the pursuit of excellence (no matter if it is in a GAME) is far more commendable than the average person's pursuit of an encyclopedic knowledge of televisional (i likes to makes the new words) general knowledge. If you hate sport, at least admire the anti-apathy.
Kind of like going to the airport. It's uplifting. Just about everybody has a purpose, a direction, an empty wallet after that $8 coffee.
I record my sleeptalking
Scoring a maximum of five on both numbers wouldn't make any sense at all of course. No sir! :)
The circus actors put all the Olympic gymnasts to shame and make the Olympic events look like kindergarten activities.
Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
Scoring only enters my mind when I watch the women's beach volleyball.
Obligatory jokes below.
PM
its about time they create another kind of olympics that had all the subjective sports in like gymnastics, diving etc.
"The hands that help are better far than lips that pray." - Robert Ingersoll (1833-1899)
The new scoring system will allow mediocre athletes to aim for a less-than-perfect 10.0 and actually reach that goal (receiving 5 for difficulty and -5 for errors).
"Now I'm sure that no Slashdot reader will intentionally watch any "sport" that has judges determine the winner"
I dunno. There's talk of finally approving the thong for women's figure skating...
I have nothing compelling to say
the athletes admit to doping, and another where they don't.
As a former gymnast, I can say that the new system is definitely more fair -- if you have two perfect routines, the one with the higher difficulty wins. Also, it means that you don't have to keep changing the system -- as routines include more difficult elements, the start value becomes higher. And you can keep a standard set of deductions for things like bending your knees, or not maintaining a toe point, or falling on your ass.
On the other hand, as a fan of the sport, the new system is more confusing, because when it was out of ten, everyone knows that a 9.9 is really good, but now, is a 16.5 really good? Or a 17.3? As it turns out, a 16.5 might win gold on one event, but not even medal on another. But I think anyone who actually follows the sport will be able to keep up, for the casual once-every-four-years viewer, they can just concentrate on the shiny medal thingie hanging around the necks of the folks on the podium at the end.
And I'm a slashdot reader and professional geek. I follow basketball, baseball, and football. I might even watch some of the USA team basketball games, just to see LeBron James play. Suck on that, editors!
Boxing is scored on points. So are most martial arts. Are those too girly for you?
Shame, Taco. And here we complain about there being no women at industry get-togethers. Guess we know why.
I piss off bigots.
I probably won't be watching gymnastics this year much at all,... especially if it interferes with women's beach volleyball. Now there's a spectator sport that most men can really enjoy! =)
Help me continue here....This is getting fun!
Now, I admit to not having RTFA. But math intensive? From the summary it sounds like they are using the intensive math of addition and subtraction. Count up. Count down. And add together!
The only thing that looked good about the olympics is the slogan of "1 World 1 Dream".
Yeah, but whose dream, and what happens to those of us who don't share it?
At the risk of running afoul Godwin, this reminds me of "One God, One Nation, One Race" (assorted White Supremacist villages in Idaho) and "Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Führer!" (You can probably guess where that one comes from).
I'm amazed more people don't find that slogan just a little chilling.
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
"I'm sure that no Slashdot reader will intentionally watch any "sport" that has judges determine the winner..."
Er... what else is the Slashdot comment-moderation system but an event that "has judges determine the winner"? And (with the scare quotes) a Slashdot flame-fest surely qualifies as "sport", no?
sig? Oh, that sig...
Hot young ridiculously flexible women in skintight outfits...what's not to love? Who cares who wins? ;)
Altho the problem with women gymnasts is they are amazingly flat-chested...
I think chair throwing should become a sport.
I think we'd all love to see the man in action.
...but their wives/girlfriends might seize control of the remote because they want to know who is the best at that ribbon twirling thing. Everyone knows Frank the Tank is the best when it comes to floor. Just don't ask him to jump through a ring of fire.
I'm a firm believer in the philosophy of a ruling class, especially since I rule.
I'm a woman, I read /. , and I don't watch gymnastics... What does this make me?
The new rules are "heavy on math". [...] The two numbers are then combined for the final score.
Sounds like they are adding "addition" and "subtraction" to the repertoire of the Olympics judges. 6.5 + (10 - 3.2) = confused audience!
And here I was thinking that the players would be scored based on the maximum rate of change of velocity they achieve at peak twirl using differential calculus.
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about china, or chinese nationalism, and nationalism of any other country. and im saying this not as a westerner, but as a non westerner.
sorry. but we cant take your shit. you are 100 years late to practice nationalism. we are living in a global world now, and we cant tolerate anyone's arrogance and nationalism.
you can only get respect, when you respect others. now go grow up.
Read radical news here
As a former gymnast I can say this news is really major. The previous scoring system had minimum requirement of difficulty. Neatness and precision of execution was by far more important. With the new system there is no upper limit on difficulty. So gymnasts are free to make all ten moves arbitrarily difficult. This completely changes the sport and takes it to a whole new level. This overhaul of the scoring system has come at exactly the right time. Considering that the sport of gymnastics has always formally coded each of the thousands of possible moves with a grading, the new system is not substantially more complex. Also be aware that as a non-gymnast you don't have a hope of understanding the scoring system because many seemingly boring moves are actually extremely difficult. One concern is that the new scoring system will encourage gymnasts to overreach themselves and put themselves in danger. Expect to see far more injuries *sigh*.
instead of stuff i could be doing first hand myself, i should be watching others 'excel' in their field. a very small life.
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but the 2006 pairs figure skating competition looked more like the hammer throw. There was nothing else on, so I watched it. It was kinda like watching NASCAR for the crashes. Here are a few clips of some of some really nasty ones.
One of our competitors trademarked the term "hypothesis". From now on, we will call them "boneheaded ideas".
Taco, if scored sports don't qualify as "stuff that matters", then don't post the story. Your stupid remark doesn't just reveal your stereotypes regarding women, it's also plain that you're out of touch with the nerddom you pretend to speak for. Shame on you!
Not all Slashdot readers are guys; but, yes, I will watch gymnastics because I find it interesting and don't particularly care who wins.
cameltoe
It doesn't seem to me that there is a difference /in kind/ between scoring a martial arts match by where the punches land and scoring an gymnastic routine by how well the gymnasts hold to certain forms. The only difference I see is that one is easier to judge by virtue of the rules being a bit simpler. That is a difference in extent.
For that matter, I don't see much difference in kind in scoring by using arbitrary rules. Putting a ball into a hoop to get points doesn't seem to me to be all that different than holding a pose to get points.
I think I remember the controversy about the South Korea incident. The South Korean incorrectly received a starting value of 9.9 for one of his routines instead of 10.0. But in another of his routines he wasn't assessed a penalty correctly. So it all balanced out. That's my recollection.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
Please look away from the porn once in a while and notice that there are women competing in and watching rugby, hockey, martial arts, football, boxing and mixed martial arts. Anyone of them could kick your geek ass, I bet.
Hell, I haven't competed in years and I bet I could *still* kick your geek ass.
I'm sure that no Slashdot reader is a pencil necked sexist male geek, either.
This just in: men and women are different! Hence the "and".
Why do we feel it necessary to make sure that [group] is equally represented in [activity]? It doesn't mean that [group A] is keeping [group B] out. Isn't in possible that [group B] are just less interested in [activity]?
Children are underrepresented in wine tasting classes. Ageism!
(most kids don't dig wine)
Blacks are underrepresented in IT. Racism!
(Actually, blacks in college gravitate toward medicine and law)
Males are underrepresented in book of the month clubs! Sexism!
(maybe the hubby wants to stay home and watch 'the big game')
My girlfriend knits. Do i have to learn how to knit to balance the gender ratio? i find knitting completely uninteresting. She doesn't want to play D&D with me and my gaggle of geeks. She should sue us for excluding her and then not play because she didn't want to in the first place.
NEWSFLASH: People like to make jokes about differences and stereotypes! But remember, if a woman makes a joke about a man being a cromag, it's funny and empowering. If a man makes a joke about a woman not knowing calculus, it's sexism and grounds for a lawsuit. The more standards the better, right?
Quick, mod me a troll or flamebait so no one can read my dissenting opinion! Someone might learn that we can make jokes about stereotypes AND know that they are wrong.
Utilizing the synergization of benchmark e-solutions to pre-workaround action items!
I will readily admit I really dug Olga Korbut in '72 & '76.
"Now I'm sure that no Slashdot reader will intentionally watch any "sport" that has judges determine the winner, but their wives/girlfriends might seize control of the remote because they want to know who is the best at that ribbon twirling thing"
Just...shut up. Really.
"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
Mountaineering, bullfighting and auto racing are sports. It's easy to tell whether you made it to the top, killed the bull or finished the race before everyone else.
If it involves a ball (as opposed to balls), it's a game. As entertaining, athletic or difficult it may be, it's still a game.
> ... they want to know who is the best at that ribbon twirling thing.
Dervish Whirling is now an Olympic Sport?
I was working on the premise that sport and game were not mutually exclusive.
In addition to being objective, however, I would say that a sport also has to involve competition. So mountaineering and bullfighting would be out (unless you were racing to get to the top of the mountain or kill the bull) but racing would be a sport...in most situations. I don't consider NASCAR to be a sport..
Jacob's sufficient requirements for sport-status:
~Competitive
~Scoring is Objective
~Physically Active
The creator of this post (Jacob Smith) hereby releases it, and all of his other posts, into the public domain.
Oh come on everybody! Give the guy a break! Are so full of yourselves you can't see it was a joke?
The original Olympics was a time out for the various armies to get together and show off their battle field trophies. Javelin throwing may seem cute but it was the artillery back in the day. The equivalent now would be to have various police forces, army units and irregulars (read: terrorists / guerillas depending on spin) get together for sniping and bombing competition.
That said, gymnastics is awesome.
Physics is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but that's not why we do it.
Now I'm sure that no Slashdot reader will intentionally watch any "sport" that has judges determine the winner,
What's up with the quality of summaries these days? Do we really need the editorial comment? Are you SURE that NO slashdot reader would watch, oh, I dunno, diving and/or gymnastics (two of the bigger Olympic events)? I for one don't appreciate being summed up into one big ball referred to as "Slashdot reader"--especially by editors. I can handle the occasional name-flame by Anonymous Coward.
Wake me when the Thunderdome is an Olympic sport.
Slashdot Burying Stories About Slashdot Media Owned
So NASCAR isn't objective and competition? I realize many people think NASCAR is all about going left a few hundred times and then drinking a beer, but they _do_ race on road courses. Watching them at Watkins Glenn is like watching elephants dance. Any professional level auto racing is also much, much more physically demanding than a lot of more conventional sports.
I can assure you that, based on walking around my city, that there are plenty of perfect 10s in this world.
It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
Or so my grandfather used to tell me.
No. Take note of who is leading or about to be lapped when caution flags (and the silly "lucky dog" is handed out) are thrown for things like a paper bag on the track (and they're ALWAYS on the track). Then take notes of the same positions when flags are NOT thrown when a car has lost an axel and is rolling around on the track.
Grammer Nazis - I mod you "troll" unless you actually add something on-topic. Yes, I know I have mispellings in my sig.
"There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games." (dubiously attributed to Earnest Hemingway)
...but their wives/girlfriends might seize control of the remote because they want to know who is the best at that ribbon twirling thing.
The wife would rather watch shooting sports (archery, pistol, rifle). If they ever include a motorcycle grand prix event, I'll never see the remote control again.
Have gnu, will travel.
I don't think that it's physically active.
Physically demanding, yes, but not active. Being punched repeatedly while tied to a wall is physically demanding, but not at all active.
The creator of this post (Jacob Smith) hereby releases it, and all of his other posts, into the public domain.
Personally, I have always felt that the most stupid event at the Olympics is the 100m sprint. Paradoxically this seems to be the viewers favourite, despite the fact that it is the event most determined by luck and, frankly, rule bending. I find it odd that there should be such expectation and buildup around an event that is over after less than 10 seconds. Though I suspect many women may have some insights on this.
The 400m sprints, and especially the relays, are nearly always a more interesting events. But Gymnastics of all kinds, in particular so called "artisic gymnastics", is most entertaining of all. If you think it's somehow inferior to the track and field events, then I challenge you to perform even one of the maneuvers seen there without spraining/breaking something.
All that said, I won't personally be watching much of the Olympics, except those clips that are splayed all over the news cycle. I've no wish to see the end result of years of a deprived and spartan childhood reduced to a walking canvas for corporate logos while they compete athletically around in front of obese onlookers in the middle of the worlds largest totalitarian state. Whew! Did I cover everything?
May the Maths Be with you!
Ok, I'm just going to throw this one out there for consideration... Olympic chess.
No, not like 'regular' chess. Olympic chess will be judged not by who wins or loses, but on their appearance and attitude.
For instance, if a player just moves his piece he gets one point. However, if he jumps on the table and does pelvic thrusts in the other players face while moving his piece (the chess piece that is) -- that would gain him 10 points for style. ....just an idea, but it would be a hell of a lot more interesting that ballroom dancing.
I am open source, and Linux baby!
olympics is the great equalizer ! its a level socio economic playing field
total bullcrap. how many of you know any normal athletes, leave aside olympic athletes ? hell, how many of you even live near an area that any athletes train ? ill tell you - many of the world's 7 bn population are even not aware that something called olympics is being held as of now. they have much more pressing concerns. and even many of the rest better-off, they have more pressing concerns and stuff too. for nobody in a developing country, anything is going to change if some athlete associated with their country wins anything competing against others. they will wake up to the same conditions just like the day before. no developing country is either going to get loans, investment, or any kind of other significant breaks because some athlete won a medal.
hell, im in a developing country but nobody cares zit about olympics here, but ministry of sports.
it brings people together.
it did, only in times of ancient greece and late 19th century, when there was NOTHING else to bring nations, people together. now we are living in 21st century, with global world and internet, and we are basically LIVING together.
look at yourself now. which nationality are you ? im sure if we got to it, we could get around at least 150 different nationalities even in THIS thread. one of you may be living in mom's basement, one of you may be cio of a fortune 100 company, yet you are still here, talking to each other in EQUAL terms. no, in 21st century there are far more outreaching stuff than olympics to bring people together, and provides much more level playing fields. hell, kids from all around the world are growing up together playing the SAME online game in the SAME hours, using the SAME slang words and having the same jargon. no olympics can beat that.
you dont want to associate yourself with the 3rd world people
i am a 3rd world people and i dont give a damn about olympics.
its about peace
WHAT is about peace ? countries trying to OUTCOMPETE each other, instead of fighting against each other with warfare or economically ? are you aware that olympics has its roots in greece as a means to solve conflicts without loss of blood instead of fighting ? replacing one kind of competition instead of a more bloody competition is not exactly 'peace'. it becomes MORE peaceful COMPARED to the former, but yet, its still a form of bickering. "fantashmagoria team has won". its the same thing, even though some of you are not able to realize that it is another form of conflict.
and in the age of sports endorsements, grants, advertisement, sponsorships, big product deals, anyone who purports that olympics is about 'peace', deserves a kick in the face.
so, am i right, or am i wrong ?
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I can help clarify some misunderstandings with regards to the impartiality of the gymnastics scoring system (Note: I am a former USAG Judge as well as a former competitive gymnast at the collegiate level).
1) Gymnastics routines are made up of a series of interconnected skills
2) Each skill in the routine has a "perfect" execution form; that is, straight legs, pointed toes, straight arms, clean shoulder-to-knee lines, or whatever the skill calls for.
3) If a gymnast performs a skill, and the execution of the skill does not meet the "perfect" execution form, points are deducted for each imperfection within the skill
3a) Gymnastics judges are, for the most part, former competitive gymnasts with an intimate understanding of the execution of the skills which they are judging, and undergo extensive training for identifying imperfections in the execution of said skills.
4) Depending on the severity of the imperfection, points are deducted (minor bends in the limbs account for small deductions, while falls or failure to execute skills correctly or in sequence account for large deductions).
5) Add up all the deductions for each skill in a routine, and you've got your execution deductions.
Now, the new scoring system is based on a response to the ridiculous difficulty of modern gymnastics. Each skill in any given event is given a difficulty rating depending on how difficult it is to execute the skill flawlessly. In mens gymnastics, for example, difficulty ratings go from an A-level (skills like a basic back flip) to F-level (skills like a triple twisting double back flip). It makes sense that gymnasts who perform more difficult skills should be rewarded with higher scores, so that's where the new system comes into play.
In the old days, no matter how difficult your routine was, everyone started off with a "10" and was deducted for execution of skills. So, a gymnast who performed a triple back flip (an F-level skill) in his routine would be on the same level as a gymnast who only did a double front flip (a D-level skill); judges would solely deduct based on execution rather than take into account the difficulty of the skill. So now, instead of you starting with a perfect score, have to BUILD towards the perfect score by creating a routine with high level skills (that is, graded D, E, and F).
Now, back to judges. Judges can now take into account skill difficulty as well as skill execution when judging a routine. Keep in mind that judges aren't judging a routine based on their personal opinion. They judge based on universally accepted "perfect" forms and the skills are directed in the FIG code of points (created by gymnasts for gymnasts, by congress). As a former judge, I can tell you that our judging performance is also graded by how well we can spot imperfections in execution; judges don't get to the Olympic level unless they are eagle-eyed and impartial.
I hope this helps everyone as they continue their discussions on the matter.
Jacob's sufficient requirements for sport-status:
~Competitive
Scoring is Objective
~Physically Active
I don't consider NASCAR to be a sport..
Either you are prejudiced against NASCAR (because it's easy to stereotype, even though it is really no different than most forms of motor sport), or you don't understand it. Tell me exactly how NASCAR (or any racing form) is not competitive? I guess only one guy wants to win and the others are just billboards for their sponsors? How is scoring in racing NOT objective? It's easy to count the cars as they cross the finish line in sequence. Lastly, HOW IN THE WORLD is NASCAR not physically active? They sustain 150+ heart rates for 3-4 hour stints and require a ton of hand-eye-foot coordination (coordination being a sufficient requirement for sport status) and physical strength and endurance.
Now I'm sure that no Slashdot reader will intentionally watch any "sport" that has judges determine the winner
Referees and umpires aren't judges?
Bring back Sirius Punk!
Although scoring is objective in many sports, they almost all require judges that help determine the outcome. Tennis has line judges. An umpire in baseball is the man who determines whether a pitch is a strike or ball, if it's fair or foul, whether the runner is safe or not. American Football has its referees and even now they are using replay footage to help them make better judgments. You almost always need judges in sports unless you're doing something simple like flipping a coin...
http://www.referee.com/sampleArticles/2001/SampleArticle0101/headsortails/headstailstext.html
I don't agree with the human rights situation in China, so I would feel hypocritical supporting China by watching the Olympics.
Maybe any of you who have complained or are concerned about it should do the same.
This new scoring system was developed to ensure the Chinese teams win every event. As no one other then the Chinese will be able to figure out the convoluted mathematics of the scoring system.
Now I'm sure that no Slashdot reader will intentionally watch any "sport" that has judges determine the winner
Like Division 1 college football?
--- http://davidnehme.blogspot.com
and MMORPGs.
Apparently, Olympic medal award will be based on DKP bidding.
I guess it's always been this way, with hardcore Olympic raiding guilds like China running around in Tier 6 gear all the time.
Welcome to the Panopticon. Used to be a prison, now it's your home.
You can't think of any other influencing factor that might bias men against pursuing careers in flower arranging? Something other than inborn aptitude?
really?
DRM: Terminator crops for your mind!
"Also, there are no ribbons in gymnastics. That's rhythmic gymnastics, sir."
Is rhythmic gymnastics a subset of gymnastics or not? IT IS? Hmm...
Of course, there are no cars in racing, that's auto racing...
"I wish I could mod down the editorialization."
I wish there was a legitimate method of dealing with stupid moderation, like the one on your post.
I define the difference between 'Sport' and 'Art' is how it is measured. If there is a weight, time, distance, height, etc, that can me measured empirically then it is a 'Sport' if it falls more under the "Eye of the Beholder" then it is 'Art'. There are some combination events like boxing that are both where rounds are scored by a judge but a knockout (not being able to stand up for a certain amount of time) will trump the score. I'm not saying that the people engaged in artistic Olympic events aren't amazing athletes at the top of their fields. I can barely comprehend the amount of coordination it takes to land perfectly on two feet while flipping and spinning in the air after vaulting off a gymnastic apparatus.
Calvin:Do you believe in the devil? Hobbes:I'm not sure man needs the help.
Fixed.
I'm confused ... Slashdotters with wives/girlfriends now that is a story.
"Now I'm sure that no Slashdot reader will intentionally watch any "sport" that has judges determine the winner, but their wives/girlfriends might seize control of the remote because they want to know who is the best at that ribbon twirling thing" Olympic boxing and wrestling have judges who award points based on specific moves.....most people would consider those sports
"This isn't true, and I have the evidence to back it."
NO you don't, what you have is evidence that if you change the fundamentals of a program to make it appealing to women, then women will enroll.
If you read your own link (thanks for the pdf warning...) you'll see they changed admission requirements, curriculum, and grading scales. I don't think the graduate equivalent of "teaching for the test" demonstrates anything other than the fact that is is possible, with enough contortion, to get a high percentage of women in a CS program.
no ball/goal = not a sport.
or
no finish line = not a sport
After having this argument several times that is the definition I have settled on. Please point out any exceptions you can think of.
I am not at ALL saying that it isn't difficult if it isn't a sport...just that it isn't a sport.
"Gymnastics" is the common term for the non-rhythmic competition (also known as "artistic gymnastics"), so, no, you're wrong."
Is or is not rhythmic gymnastics a subset of gymnastics?
It is.
YOU are wrong, and a douche to boot.
"It looks like you're supporting my point right there. My argument is that X is not a subset of Y even if the word Y appears in the word X, because Y is merely a short form of another term."
And you're demonstrably wrong.
"Well, seeing as how I'm right on the primary criticism you've leveled, I guess moderation worked perfectly well."
My criticism was that rhythmic gymnastics is a subset of gymnastics.
Is it?
Right, so despite the fact that you claim to be right, You're demonstrably not, and you're embarrassing yourself by trying to pretend otherwise.
However, just because you're fun to prove wrong
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhythmic_gymnastics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%A9d%C3%A9ration_Internationale_de_Gymnastique
Remember, this is Slashdot.
I am a Zen Buddhist. There is no difference between the subjective and the objective, you insensitve clods.
"Now I'm sure that no Slashdot reader will intentionally watch any "sport" that has judges determine the winner...."
Right Taco, I'm sure Pavlik or Pacquiao wouldn't mind a few well-adjudicated minutes with you after comments like that.
I know you're modded flamebait, but i honestly think you have the most insightful comment here.
DRM: Terminator crops for your mind!
Have you taken a census lately?
Because no /. reader would ever consider watching an event mostly comprising of women in tight leotards that leave little to the imagination.
I'm fairly positive this is redundant by now, but if you think I'm reading 450 comments to make sure, you have another thing coming (get your minds out of the gutter...).
then nobody can complain....
or, if we just obfuscate it enough
'buying the win' becomes a more opaque phenomenon.
Good people go to bed earlier.
Why do you think that "judged" sports are not likely to be watched by slashdotters. Just to give you an idea in the Summer Olympics the following I believe get judged: Platform Diving Board Diving Gymnastics Rhythmic Gymnastics In the Winter olympics sports like: Ski Jump Moguls Freestyle Skiing Figure Skating Ice Dancing Among other things. I've always found some of those sports to be the best to watch of the olympics.
LOL! Couldn't agree more. Not a fan of "judged" events. Too subjective for me. At least this is a move in the right direction. Kinda reminds me of calculating THAC0. :P
(Married 11 years to a gymnastics lover.)
Boxing
Skateboarding
Snowboarding
Extreme Skiing
Ski-Jumping
BMX
Freestyle MotoX
High Diving
Numerous Martial Arts
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Then why is there so much variation between judges?
So now if you joke about gymnastics or any difference between the sexes you hate women? Got it.
/. get so PC? Lighten up.
Gawd, when did
Slashdot "libertarians": Small government for me, big government for those I disagree with. -1, I disagree with you
Now I'm sure that no Slashdot reader will intentionally watch any "sport"(insert period here).
There, that's better.
Slashdot "libertarians": Small government for me, big government for those I disagree with. -1, I disagree with you
Either you are prejudiced against NASCAR
Guilty.
HOW IN THE WORLD is NASCAR not physically active? They sustain 150+ heart rates for 3-4 hour stints and require a ton of hand-eye-foot coordination ... and physical strength and endurance.
Physically demanding is NOT the same as physically active.
When it comes down to it, NASCAR drivers are sitting still and directing their car.
If I club you repeatedly while you play Mario Brothers (in order to fulfill the other two requirements, let's assume that someone else is attempting to beat it before you, and is also getting clubbed) are you participating in a sport? Your heart rate is sure to be high, due to the fight/flight response and it requires a ton of coordination, physical strength, and endurance.
The creator of this post (Jacob Smith) hereby releases it, and all of his other posts, into the public domain.
You can't see anything through mud. Substitute clear jello!
one ... which adds points up from a score of zero; the other ... which starts at 10.0 and subtracts
So that's "heavy on math" in the opinion of a slashdot submitter?
To suggest that they were "outdated" would be to acquiesce that at one time they were correct; this is not the case. Nothing in the words "competitive," "sport," or even "competitive sport" is exclusive of the activity having artistic components, as I already stated.
And as someone else has already gone into more detail to explain, your idea of the subjectivity of the judging is very wrong; that you don't understand the judging doesn't make it a non-sport either. One achieves X points for doing a particular move. If you follow it up by another particular move, you get Y points. On the artistic side, points are deducted if you didn't do it with, well, grace...though that grace is really just something achieved with control and strength.
Let me explain it in a way more people have a knowledge base for: a weak man stuggles and wobbles trying to do a bench press. Any competent trainer will tell them, however, to not increase the weights if those will be wobbled up as well; one should stay at a reasonable weight and continue using that weight until they can do a bench press that is straight up, straight down, with no shakes, wobbles, or hesitation. Once they can do X reps perfectly, then the weight is increased. That they can do the weight with grace then is an athletic accomplishment too, to distinguish them from the people who can merely press the weight.
If I can, then, bench press 200lbs with perfect artistic "grace"...and I don't even attempt to press 210lbs, and then someone else comes up and strains and wobbles up 210lbs...your definition of "true sport" would have that person win. However, for people who have actually done a bench press, it is well accepted that the graceful 200 is much more difficult than the awkward 210. Much the same, a graceful, beautiful double pirouette should be awarded more points than an awkward, clumsy triple pirouette.
Olympic sports shouldn't be trivialized to some sort of RPG-style grinding, where you have some X thing you obtain, without regard for how, and the style with which, it was accomplished.
Slashdot readers actually HAVE wives/girlfriends....
You, an American, call this heavy on meth? Get your metric system straight!
Personally I think the Summer Olympics are lame. Easily cut out half the "sports"...
However as to judges, I would dissagree and say that most if not all sports have judges. They might just be called referees. They judge that the rules are followed and have impact on the outcome.
OK and just to get people going here is my list on non sports:
#1) Syncro Swimming. - wtf is that all about?
#2) Ribbon dancing. - I don't even care that it isn't called that
#3) Rowing, Sailing, etc... - how about canoing, or hand gliding, etc...
#4) Running is a sport, but do we really need a 100, 200, 300, 400, 500, 600, 700, 800, 900, 1000 etc... How about 3. A short one. A medium one. A long one. Done.
#5) Ballroom dancing. - need I explain?
#6) Women's Beach Volley - is a sport. and hot.
#7) Hurtles? Isn't that just running with some jumping?
#8) Long Jump - Sure we will call that a sport. same goes with high jump.
#9) Pole Vault - not sure where the heck it came from but I would cut that one out.
#10) Missing sport I would like to see. Random large obstacle course with no preview. Now that would be hard to train for and fun to watch!
#11) Shot put and Javelin - Sure we will call 'em sports for now. Discus is pushin' it though.
#12) Sport Sports are sports. Basketball, Tennis, Baseball, Soccer, etc...
#13) Diving is ok I guess
#14) Water Polo Is a sport
#15) Badmington might be a sport, but it is a dumb one.
#16) Boxing is a sport, and I say throw in UFA as well!
#17) Cycling and Horse riding do not equal sports. Like the above they are just different modes of transportation. Lets have NASCAR and Blimp races next.
#18) I say Fencing is a sport
#19) Trampoline? - Come on!
#20) Hockey and Judo are sports (even if only field hockey)
#21) Where is Lacrosse?
#22) Shooting and Archery I say are Sports so there!
#23) Table Tennis. - See Badminton
#24) Trialtholon, has cycling, but I will let it go as it is a combo event!
#25) Weighlifting and Wrestling are sports.
#26) Golf is not a sport. But Rugby is.
#27) Squash and Cricket and croquet - lame.
#28) Skatebording is not a sport.
#29) Speed walking. - Have you watched that crap. lol.
#30) Gymnastics are a sport, but not the artsy fartsy ones.
#31) Handball? - See Squash.
#32) Mountain and BMX also not sports.
#33) Kayacking - See Rowing
Flame on!
You usually appear to be a pretty bright guy. Your sexist remark really sucks and I agree with other posters who said that "stuff like this is what makes the technology sector dominated by males. It's just stupid and you should admit it. Why you would insult your female readers like this is beyond me.
BWAHAHAHA...Slashdot reader...wife...
BWAHAHAHAHA
Hey, the ribbon twirling thing is hot.
I don't think the guys would go for either.
Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
Judging politicians, scientists, CEOs - you name it! We even judge each other. In fact, I'll probably get marked a troll because someone disagrees with me.
Why would judges in the Olympics bother slashdotters?
I've never really cared for the Olympics, probably because I don't see the value in practicing a judged sport as a career, but I'm freakin' WEIRD!
So you're from an unfavored part of the world and you can run real fast in a circle... hmm, no other saleable skills, eh ? Great, just great! *BLAM*
So you're a short little girl who couldn't pass grade school, but you can do twirly jumps on ice skates to dead old music... hmm, couldn't even cut it as a stripper, eh ? *BLAM*
I don't even think too highly of TV sports like hockey and ThatGayLittleGameWithStewiesHead, but I still consider most olympic sports beneath them. After all, it takes at least some brains to outplay a team of drunken 250lb stick-wielding lummoxes, which is more than I can say about the olympics.
Luge, anyone ?
-Billco, Fnarg.com
And support your point or admit you can't. I said "Find ONE source that specifically says Rhythmic Gymnastics is not gymnastics, and I'll concede your point." and you didn't.
"I'm saying that until you came and started dicking around, everyone was using "gymnastics" to mean "artistic gymnastics."
Then you came and started playing word games."
HEY FUCKWIT, YOU ARE THE ONE WHO ATTEMPTED TO SAY RHYTHMIC GYMNASTICS ARE NOT GYMNASTICS. Is that not a "word game", or does "word game" mean "used the correct definition" to you?
Lastly, I wasn't talking about "everyone" guy, I was talking about what YOU said, and why YOU were wrong. If there were others who were also wrong, my statement applies to them too.
However, the fact that you were ALL wrong doesn't do a fucking thing to make YOU less wrong, no matter how many times you claim "everyone was using "gymnastics" to mean "artistic gymnastics."
You were wrong, you got called on it, and instead of being a man about how obviously wrong you were, you tried to defend a stupid position by supporting it with stupid reasoning.
You opine that NASCAR drivers (well, any race car driver for that matter) just sit there doing very little in the way of being "physically active"? This just shows that you know nothing about the demands required of the drivers. This is not simply sitting in a car seat and getting clubbed while playing Mario Brothers. Your confession of guilt also makes your judgment that much more dubious. You can be against NASCAR all you want (it's an easy target, like I already stated) but your disdain towards it doesn't change the physics involved in piloting a race car.
What physics are those? What is it that NASCAR drivers do makes them physically active?
The creator of this post (Jacob Smith) hereby releases it, and all of his other posts, into the public domain.
Watch a broadcast if you really must know. Drive a rear-wheel drive sports car with a manual transmission to the verge of losing traction, then break traction, recovering the vehicle without hitting anything (do this at anywhere between 100-200 mph). Steer a 3,500 pound car with 800 hp around a 25 degree banked surface, surrounded by 42 other cars doing the same (without hitting anything). Do this for 3 hours straight, then come back and tell us how that is NOT physically active. Search You Tube for Carl Edwards, and tell me those guys are physically active (no fair you-tubing Tony Stewart though).
Once again, that sounds demanding, but not active. You know, 'active' where a lot of motion is involved?
The creator of this post (Jacob Smith) hereby releases it, and all of his other posts, into the public domain.
Only 11-14 % of the applicants were women in all of the years the study cited.
30-40% of the female applicants were accepted, while only 9-25% of the male applicants were. The percentage of male applicants who were accepted dropped every year, from 25% in 1995 to 9% in 2000.
No. They made that change by making women more likely to be admitted than men, and making them more likely to get financial aid.
If you keep looking, you'll also find out that women were more likely to transfer out of the CS program. This matches what I've seen quite well... In a freshman CS classroom, about half the students will be female. By the time these students reach their junior year, only a handful of the girls will be left (who will usually be the ones who know what they're doing, and finish). There will be plenty of attrition in the male ranks too, but nowhere near that much.
I'm sick of citations of studies in which the reported "conclusion" conflicts with the statistics.
Yes, there are very intelligent and talented women in the field of computer science. These people are not likely to make up half the field, or even a third of it, any time soon, no matter what the XKCD guy and lonely geeks everywhere want.
It's easy to sit around and post on Slashdot and be cynical. It's harder to dedicate your life to becoming the absolute best athlete at a given sport or skill, and that is the heart of the Olympics.
Do all those things happen around the Olympics? Sure. Are they the purpose? Not at all.
I know 3 out of the 5 U.S. whitewater slalom athletes in Beijing (plus many who barely missed the chance to go) and I can assure you there is nothing glamorous or rich or corrupt about their pursuit of excellence. The U.S. men's K1 athlete makes a modest living constructing prosthetics for injured soldiers when he's not in training sessions 12 times a week.
Build a man a fire, he's warm for one night. Set him on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.
...even less do I like your tacit assumption that only men or lesbians read Slashdot. "Now I'm sure that no Slashdot reader will intentionally watch any "sport" that has judges determine the winner, but their wives/girlfriends might seize control of the remote because they want to know who is the best at that ribbon-twirling thing." As a straight woman who works in technology, I get increasingly tired of being invisible. You were trying to be funny, I get that, but I have read things that were funny, and this was not funny.
- Sweeneybird
On the other hand, watching nubile athletic girls contort themselves does it for me.
Dude, she's 12.
That aside, Ice Dancing. Seriously.
It's hard, unbelievably hard. It's close order team work, at speed, with sharp blades with pointy ends on them on your feet.You can't appreciate ice dance until you've seen it done by people of less than Olympic caliber-when you can see all the details that go into building that speed and team work. Olympians make it look easy. For some top notch ice dancing I recommend you look on YouTube at UK champions Kerr & Kerr's free dance at 2008 Worlds--robot love--it was great, imaginative, pushed the envelope in lifts, spins, and carries.
The system could calculate:
a) from 0 to 5, and
b) from 5 down to 0,
This way, a + b could be up to 10.
Simple...
And now for the judges scores:
Germany: 9.4
USA: 8.5
France: 3.5
Japan: 9
Sayian: "IT'S OVER 9000!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
I think the point is that anything that needs judges is not a sport, due to it being subjectively instead of objectively scored.
Dammit, I agree completely that anything judged cannot be a sport. Except that I also know in the depths of my soul that boxing is the most pure of sports. How do I resolve this conundrum?
I mean this seriously in the sense that karate is probably also a geek sport. Yes, there is a degree of physical aptitude required, but the whole point of karate or other martial arts is not that one is successful by virtue of raw athletic talent as seems to be the path taken in ball sports or track, but through a combination of mental discipline, training, and intellectual insights, one is able to accomplish feats that one would think would require raw strength.
From a guy-geek perspective, ice dance partnering is the closest contact one is going to get with women until the rest of one's social skill catch up with your ice dance instruction. And yes, ice dance is everything you described it to be, along with developing an intuitive understanding of Newtonian mechanics in coordinate frames that are highly non-inertial owing to rotations about multiple axes. You are going to have to master non-inertial coordinate frames to get passing marks in something called the European Waltz.
Also from a guy-geek perspective, solo ice dance practice only gets you so far, and at some point you are going to have to figure out how to relate to a female-type person in a non-inertial frame. Once you master that, just about all of your other interactions with a woman that you need to be in some kind of cooperative relationship -- a friend, a coworker, a girl friend, a wife -- will take place in an inertial coordinate frame where action and reaction is much easier to understand.
But the Olympics? I don't know, I think it is ruining the sport. To make it more "sport like", every year it looks more and more like karate, and in defense of karate, do they even have that in the Olympics or is karate able to conduct itself purely for its own sake and the satisfaction of maintaining an art rather than having judging and competition and all of the garbage that goes with that.
Mmm gratuitous sexist comment on a tech site... with bonus heterosexism! Well colour me surprised. Guh. Dude, stick to talking about tech which you know best, please.
There was this picture on a Web site of a young Condi Rice with an absolute toothpick physique skating what looks like the Dutch Waltz with an ice dance partner.
Consider shots taken close to the buzzer, whether or not a foul has been committed, etc. All sports have the same problems. The difference is of extent, not of kind.