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Rat-Brained Robots Take Their First Steps
missb writes "Brain tissue cultured from rats has controlled a wheeled robot around a lab, according to New Scientist this week. Researchers in the UK have harnessed signals from thousands of disembodied rat neurons, and manipulated them to get a robot to respond to instructions. The team at the University of Reading in the UK hope their research will help provide treatments for diseases like Alzheimer's and epilepsy."
I for one welcome our new Rat-Brained Robot overlords!
What was the lead researcher's name? Davros?
Why, without your clothes, you're naked, Miss Dudley!
I, for one, welcome our rat brained robotic overlords.
Curious minds want to know.
Am I the only one who fails to see how these rodent zombie robots have anything to do with Alzheimer's?
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0079285/
So we need to expect a cyborg rat invasion now?
I, for the rest, do not welcome our rat brained robotic overlords.
Viable Slashdot alternatives: https://pipedot.org/ and http://soylentnews.org/
"The team at the University of Reading in the UK hope their research will help provide treatments for diseases like Alzheimer's and epilepsy."
That outcome is very much exaggerated, apparently to try to get more attention. Any such result would depend on other huge advancements not yet made.
meet Jerry.
We have had these running around here for years. We just called them MBA's.
Surely a rat brain would be an improvement over the standard politician's brain.
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.
PITA is going to have a field day with this one.
It's PETA. Not Pain In The Ass (although some do feel that way about them); People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals.
As to whether or not said field day will occur, I will abstain from commenting as I have not RTFA. But it would not surprise me if they do.
Creationist Textbook Stickers Declared Unconstitutional by CowboyNeal
.... Morbius?
This is my opinion. To make sure you don't steal it, it's covered by the DMCA.
PITA is going to have a field day with this one.
LOVE the misspelling of PETA. How true, how true...
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
Really? I didn't realize that flat bread was so cognizant. Just spread some couscous on it, it should appease them.
Something is amiss with this. I can understand the robot reacting to the "signals" from the neurons but.. how do the neurons know where the walls are? I would imagine that 3,000 neurons isn't enough to parse any input it is being provided ( ultra-sound by the looks of it ) let alone figure out which direction to move in to avoid them.
The disappearing pencil trick. Let me show you it.
Suddenly, I just can't stop screaming.
No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
What? Is he serious, making a statement like that? Does he think grants grow on trees, that he can so blithely disregard the opportunity for sensationalistic coverage and the resultant exposure to those who issue private grants? Sure, Alzheimer's is mentioned, which is a nice hook, but he needs to make ridiculous claims in order to break through the wall of grant-deniers.
Sheesh. What is the academic world coming to, that they make responsible statements regarding their research?
"Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
I totally thought this was about some greenhorn politicians ;) Ok, I think I feel my karma dropping already.
Unlike rats, you can't eat a robot.
What?!
http://twitter.com/OLDTELEGRAM
Will these rat things be programmed never to break the sound barrier in a populated area?
Hugely inflated claims? From Captain Cyborg? To generate press attention?
Film, as they say, at eleven.
Is this the first Cylon Raider?
FTW. Who are they trying to kid? They are building man/machine interfaces. Unless they plan of replacing human CNS components (brain stem?) with electronics then I don't see the connection at all.
They should just come clean and say what they are doing, which is probably cool in itself, but a little spooky; they are building cyborgs.
But that isn't going to nail any grants from the NIH, so they go with the "aid to the afflicted" thing. Crap. And if they are going to lie and deflect on the basics, I guess they'll not end it there: Who said those are rat neurons? When does it become not rat neurons but human neurons, who decides that, and who advocates for those human neurons? When it is human, what does that make the rolling "machine" under those neurons -- a mobility assistance device? What if the damned thing exhibits delta waves at some point?
Send that whole team to a week-long ethics retreat -- every year -- we can *not* afford any f*ckups on this one.
=^..^= all your rodent are belong to us
That's nothing compared to the robot-brained rats I've been working on!
"Rat-Brained Robots" would make a good name for a punk band.
Proverbs 21:19
I for one welcome our new rat brained overlords...
This is simultaneously one of the more interesting, exciting, and terrifying news Items I've seen a while.
So THAT is the secret of Nimh!
What are we going to do tomorrow night?
The same thing we do every night, TRY TO TAKE OVER THE WORLD!
What's the value of information that you don't know?
It's PETA. Not Pain In The Ass (although some do feel that way about them); People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals.
People Eating Tasty Animals
== First cross river, then insult alligator.
Bzzzzzzzzzzz!
We are Borg you will be assimilated... STOMP. Assimilate that.
RoboCop next!
I keep imagining a robot that keeps trying to crawl behind the fridge when you turn on the lights!
Are these rat things powered by radio-isotopes? If so, I think Stephenson may have some prior art in the area.
Actually this reminds me of an anime recently released in Japan by the name of Ghost Hound, apparently by the same person who did Ghost in the Shell and supposedly of the same quality. I wouldn't know, I've only seen half the series but what I saw was relatively thought provoking and definitely interesting.
A random bag of paper clips would do the same.
Call me back when they have decision making.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
Off in the distance: "Brains, braaiinnss..."
It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
does this mean that biotech is no longer godzilla?
How long until we have the first rat-brained cruise missile? ICBM? How far are we ahead of the Chinese in rat-brain technology? How big is the rat-brain GAP? Will anyone miss Wisconsin?
"There is nothing to do it. But to do it." -Floyd Pepper
All hail our cheese eating robotic overlords!
I only look human.
My mother is a halfling and my dad is an ogre, so that makes me an Ogreling
For all we really know, we are nothing more then an AI experiment.
Uh oh.. it can only be a short time until we're under siege from an army of very small Cybermen.
So this means when I get Alzheimer's, I can get a rat-brain-controlled robot to do my chores..?
Move all sig!
I found this article... then checked Slashdot.
Where have all the intelligent slashdotters gone? Let's all STOP trying to come up with the funniest one-liner and talk about the subject at hand here.
They have taken brain cells and taught them to control a robot. This is simply freakin' astounding!
What else has been done related to this such as MEMS? Anyone?
programming myself into obsolescence
Seriously... if the outcome of that similar-themed Shadowrun campaign we did all those years ago is any indication, these people need to be stopped at any cost...
What must it be like, to be a brain controlling a robot?
From the article, I doubt that the mesh of neurons controlling the ratbot is necessarily sufficient to sustain a normal level of rat-consciousness, but what if it was?
In short, I think this brings us much closer to a very large number of very large ethical questions when it comes to life and the mind. We can (somewhat) safely assume that our current robots are not sentient, but what if they are controlled by biological brains, the DNA of which intended them to be part of a living body?
Pronounced "Redding" if you ever need to speak the name aloud. In the same vein as Leicester is pronounced Lester, not Ly-sester.
They are using tissue cultured from a rat brain. They could have taken a sample of brain tissue and then grown it in the lab. The rat may still be alive. Until we know for sure though, the only conlcusion we can make is that the rat is both alive and dead.
Copyright 2010. All rights reserved. This comment may not be copied in any way including, but not limited to caching.
It's alive!!! ALIIIIIIIIVE!!!
(cue Oingo Boingo...)
"You're getting brutal, Sark. Brutal and needlessly sadistic."
"Thank you, Master Control"
-Sark and the MCP
What could possibly go wrong?
The eventual capacity to man neurons will bring one of the most vapid lines ever to enter cinema to reality.
*plugs in* *whooshing sound* "I know kung fu"
VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
Start to catch cats?
Hey! You kids get of my
In post Patriot Act America, the library books scan you.
I for one, congratulate the RIAA for taking their first steps.
Somehow seems unlikely. Basically they're taking brain cells from a rat fetus. Now, PETA members should be on the far left, which means they should be supporting stem cell research*, and therefore should be very far away from those on the far right who might complain about aborting rats.
* This is a one way containment, I'm not implying that only far lefties approve of stem cell research
Oh, hell... /me ducks behind flame shield and runs from flamebait mod
Rat Race for Ratty-assed Rangy Robots?
(That subject is NOT the sound of a chihuahau in my computer.... Plus, I doubt dogs can make the "F" sound, hehe)
What's next, dog brains in robots? (Nah, some people who defile some Koreans for eating dog meat would be up in robocopic arms if Fido or FiFi ended up in a little robo-chassis..))
RaRoFo
Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
I suggest you check out SNOW CRASH by Neal Stephenson.
Fido is a good puppy and a pit bull terrier known as a "Rat Thing" by others. He's a biologically-brained robotic guard dog that does bad things to bad people, as he should.
Andy Out!
Is this the shape of things to come?
I hear see the "Yo Quero Robo Belle", and Squi-Squi-Squi-Squi-Squi-Sqeeee- and RaRaFoRaRaROH sounds in the combat circles... Olympus battles Zeus/Aphrodite. ZA wins. Will ZA MOUNT Olympus?
Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
It's actually pretty cool the way neurons work - look them up sometime. Basically at the beginning the pathways are all very similar. As certain pathways generate responses, those pathways get "weighted", or strengthened. This causes good pathways to be reinforced over and over until all the other pathways are so weak as to not be a viable pathway. This is kind of how we "learn". And then all of a sudden something comes along that causes the neurons to use other pathways to try to get the signal through. This causes a different pathway to strengthen, making it a more viable option. As more and more neurons are connected, more and more possible pathways are created. Different stimuli pass through different pathways, again reinforcing a certain path for a certain stimuli. So when you hear a word for the first time, it passes through a seemingly random pathway. As you hear the word more and more, and it's meaning is demonstrated to you over and over (as a mother and father teaches their child to speak), the meaning is connected to the stimuli so that when you receive the stimuli, it travels through the proper channel to the correct meaning in your brain, and you recognize it.
So putting neurons in robots is actually freaking exciting as hell. But it's not really a "cyborg" - it's not a fully functioning brain, per se. It's just that they've started experminenting using neurons where before there were massive amounts of circuits trying to come to the same decision.
I can see stem cells taking on a whole new meaning. And how would you nurish a neuron-equipped robot? Surely the protective coating around neurons need replenishing - man, this is actually crazy as hell.
FTA (unabridged):
This work will hopefully contribute to our knowledge of how brains work, but its potential should not be wasted on that, says Potter. "This system is a model. Everything it does is merely similar to what goes on in the brain, it's not really the same thing. We can learn about the boring brain - but when we make sentient Monster Trucks, that will truly be badass." He then pumped his fist 3 times and held up the sign of the goat for a few seconds before returning to a screaming guitar solo.
I am the richest astronaut ever to win the superbowl.
just as we cast off our own faith in our gods, cursing them and labeling them as myths, our own creations, built in our own image, will inevitably do the same. The only question is this: will our robots succeed in destroying us, or will we succeed in destroying them?
I don't know if it is a question of destruction or of domination. Will we create a race of AI robots for the sole purpose of enslaving them? If we have the relationship with our robots of Creator/Creation will that make us slave owners once AI achieves sentience? Look at robotic factories, the work long hours for no pay and are modified or replaced or sold at the whim of their owner, if you did that with a person they would be a slave. Of course they are machines not people so it is just a factory not slavery. But if those robots where sentient would it change the moral argument. If that argument concludes that it would in fact be slavery, is there any reason to build AI robots if we cannot treat them as slaves? I don't want to have to allow my Roomba the freedom to go work for someone else, or the right to be paid for it's work.
We are all just people.
I am thrilled to see this breakthrough. Now we just need to find a way to develop this further so that I can finally finish my sharkbrain controlled lasers.
After reading the article I'm disapointed that the researchers make this claim like the brain issue is knowingly steering the car.
When you read the article, they just did a series of probing in that, if a wall sensor sends in voltage, see what neuron fires and we'll make THAT the trigger to turn.
It's more a trial an error than a cognitive test of the brain tissue.
Does the mass of neurons have consciousness? Does it think, even in a simple way?
Does it have emotion and feelings?
A common argument against the possibility of AI is that man-made devices would have no soul. The counter argument to that is why not? Who are you to say God(s) wouldn't give it a soul? Maybe souls are spontaneous and require no divine creation. For those that believe in souls and God(s) this would seem to indicate that souls are capable of interfacing with whatever sort of brain tissue is available. It could be argued that if the mass of neurons has a soul then God doesn't object, or maybe he's a non-interventionist. Or maybe we're just interacting with a sensory-deprived rat soul. Who knows.
Religion aside, let's look at ethics. Is this a good thing to do? Where do we draw the ethical line? Did we steal the neurons from the unborn rat, or does the rat even care?
This is a real philosophical can of worms and should fuel some interesting discussion.
I thought this was another RIAA article. Oh well...
It walks down stairs
alone or in pairs
and makes the slinkety sound
What are we going to do tomorrow night? The same thing we do every night, TRY TO ASSIMILATE THE WORLD!
There, fixed it for you.
-Ours is the wisdom of Solomon, the magic of Merlyn, the fall of Icaris.
Okay, then, I hope to become a famous male supermodel.
If you say, "No way", I will say you have become overly sensitive.
Schroedinger's Rat?
Tsukasa: All I really want, is to be left alone...
Call me when they have interfaced a disembodied adult rat brain via wi-fi to the Sony Aibo and I will be impressed, before then, don't bother me with this trivial stuff.
Tsukasa: All I really want, is to be left alone...
Pain Enema My Ass...
wait what?
PETA are not really lefties. Proper lefties hate (capitalist) pigs and (running) dogs, and we want to get rid of all the (fat) cats.
What if Tetris was invented by Nazis?
Someone ask Bush's former bioethics council chairman Leon Kass if this is more or less offensive to bioethical dignity than eating an ice cream cone on the sidewalk.
Like most in-vitro research, these results may or may not give an indication to what sort of applications may come from the results (ie. a robot controlled by a change in a neuron's membrane potential). However, it won't be until these neuroscientists get a robot to respond to field potentials from an ALIVE cortically implanted rat (or another in-vivo model) will the results be useful enough to apply to remedial research. These results to people who study neuronscience are not a big deal--getting a predictable electrical response from a group of neurons in a petri dish is not a problem--these neurons have ion channels which are voltage gated and respond quite predictably to changes in membrane potential (the concentrations of ions around the membrane). I don't know why everyone is thinking live rats are controlling robots.
"Engineering. Where the noble, semi-skilled laborers execute the vision of those who think and dream." -Sheldon
Looks like the neurons currently don't have feedback. Adding feedback would be neat. Of course, hitting a wall is negative, finding "food" or avoiding a wall would be negative. I don't know the actual mechanism for feedback/training that the brain uses, but try to trigger it.
So, the current project exploits reflex behavior -- expand it to learned behavior.
See if the little buggers can train themselves...
Just another "Cubible(sic) Joe" 2 17 3061
If real rats can be a vector for a real virus (Black Death) then imagine what kind of vector these rats might be (BLUE screen of DEATH)!
(yes, I know, I know. It was the fleas. But still...)
I won't join Slashcott. OTOH, If Beta goes live, I just won't be back until it's fixed. Sorry Dice.
No, no. Not PETA. PITA. As in the bread. Rat Neurons mixed in with some humus - delicious.
The team at the University of Reading in the UK hope their research will help provide treatments for diseases like Alzheimer's and epilepsy.
Or, a whole new line of really cool robotic rat-brain controlled toys.
Why? I like my body. I love my body...
hey!
PITA?
like what they wrap a doner kebab in?
I always wondered what that doner option on my drivers license meant...
Nothing, because rats do not like cheese.
I'm not sure of the publication date, but probably in the late 1950s to early-1960s Philip K. Dick wrote a novel where the hero had a reel-to-reel stereo system that had to be watered and fed every day because its electronics depended on living brain cells as circuitry. (I think the cells came from some weird sentient slime mold they found on Ganymede.)
Now, aside from the automatic-cool factor of a PKD connection, I find these Frankenstein-type experiments troubling from a moral standpoint. (Anyone that knows me personally probably just blew coffee out of their noses.)
I'm a rabid technophile, but animals do experience terror and therefore are aware on some level. These experiments, admittedly still in the rudimentary stages, are generally headed toward using living animal brains to control machines. I can't imagine a more horrifying situation for a creature that didn't volunteer for it. (I, for one, would actually consider it, but it'd have to be one damned cool robot.)
I guess I feel the same way about these sort of things as I do when reading of consciousness continuing after human decapitations for a minute or longer. Just because something can be done doesn't mean it needs to be. And this feels really, really wrong to me.
"No matter where you go, there you probably are." -- Buckaroo Heisenberg
A real stainless steel rat?
Ok, sigh.. where to start.
1. neurons firing with a electronic interface does not make a cyborg. /blah //I give up
2. only humans have self-awareness and self-consciousness, no other animal on earth to date has this.
3. a rat brain is a rat brain, you hook it up to a computer, it will not act human, unless the software/hardware interface may allow it to appear as such or even do things that we humans can do, but this does not make it any more then a rat with a human helping hand.
4. etc etc etc..............
Amazing. It reminds me of the concept of the "Quantum Leap" computer, where neurons from 2 humans are used as the basis of the core brain of the "Quantum" computer named Ziggy.
Science-fiction is becoming less and less fiction, so, I tell you, we sure do live in interesting times, and I'm glad to be a part of this.
The possibilities for this are tremendous! For instance, imagine for the blind, a tool based on this technology which would allow them to be able to know what they face around them! A talking "virtual" seeing eye dog application so to speak! I know the goal for the blind is to restore their sight, but this is an alternative until its done. Imagine this in situation where you require an unmanned probe with some form of decision making process, should there be something that could be a threat to its functions.
I could go on here, but, again.. wow this is really cool news!
Man, I really think PETA people will go crazy over this. Their hateful screams will range from 'don't do this to the rats!!!' to 'robots are our friends, don't experiment with them'.
I for one welcome our rat-brained robotic powered, laser equiped, genetically altered, landshark overlords.
That was amazing. :-)
Move all sig!
I've always thought this was the best approach to "AI" for robots. Put animal brains in them or give animals robotic limbs...basically animal cyborgs. Our ancestors depended on animals in much the same way we depend on robots and machinery, so it makes perfect sense to me. We have thousands of years of experience of training animals to do what we want. With some remote control systems in their robotic bodies, we have even more effective means of training them. the big plus to me is that, with no software "AI" in control, it rules out the possibility of a "Skynet". However, yes, there is a "planet of the apes" risk, but that's what that remote control "off switch" is for :)
Vivisection is sick and should be stopped. We don't condone the "research" nazis did on jews. When will animals have any rights on this planet? When will the torture stop?
Cool [^ _ ^] Anonymous Coward!
Hey guys, why do you care so much about gods and the end of the world and stuff like that?
Isn't it obvious that what you do and the way you live concerns only one person, and that's you? ...dude..some people here sound just like those crazies on the side walk...
I mean, it's not like it matters either way..
your going to be dead right?
( or ALIVE!!! if your super super religious. )
Signature says it all:
In Soviet Russia a beowulf cluster of these things imagines you welcoming your new, neural-network overlords.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbiWH1xqeqQ&feature=related
"Why is it wrong for scientists to attract attention?"
Of course, it is not wrong. What is wrong is LYING to get attention. What is wrong is Slashdot carrying a lot of stories about fake science that happens to want investors.
Most people don't know the meaning of science, yet know it is important. It is easy to take advantage of them.
Thanks for that comment. I knew nothing about Kevin Warwick until I read the Wikipedia article about him. He's not really involved in science, apparently, it's theater.
Can you imagine a Beowulf cluster of these?
It sure would pack a lot of cheese!
Story is old news. They've had these robots working in post offices in the US for years.
What the hell are they using rat brain for? How do they expect to equip sharks with lasers running tests on Rat brains?!
But seriously folks, where's the whatcouldpossiblygowrong tag?
Or the obligatory Futurama killbot references? I mean, does this thing have a reset switch for the kill counter or what?