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Rat-Brained Robots Take Their First Steps
missb writes "Brain tissue cultured from rats has controlled a wheeled robot around a lab, according to New Scientist this week. Researchers in the UK have harnessed signals from thousands of disembodied rat neurons, and manipulated them to get a robot to respond to instructions. The team at the University of Reading in the UK hope their research will help provide treatments for diseases like Alzheimer's and epilepsy."
I for one welcome our new Rat-Brained Robot overlords!
What was the lead researcher's name? Davros?
Why, without your clothes, you're naked, Miss Dudley!
Curious minds want to know.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0079285/
So we need to expect a cyborg rat invasion now?
I, for the rest, do not welcome our rat brained robotic overlords.
Viable Slashdot alternatives: https://pipedot.org/ and http://soylentnews.org/
"The team at the University of Reading in the UK hope their research will help provide treatments for diseases like Alzheimer's and epilepsy."
That outcome is very much exaggerated, apparently to try to get more attention. Any such result would depend on other huge advancements not yet made.
meet Jerry.
We have had these running around here for years. We just called them MBA's.
Surely a rat brain would be an improvement over the standard politician's brain.
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.
PITA is going to have a field day with this one.
It's PETA. Not Pain In The Ass (although some do feel that way about them); People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals.
As to whether or not said field day will occur, I will abstain from commenting as I have not RTFA. But it would not surprise me if they do.
Creationist Textbook Stickers Declared Unconstitutional by CowboyNeal
and welcome ye shall. Because, nothing, absolutely NOTHING, can go wrong when you put rat brains into metallic bodies. No, nothing can go wrong. I also hope they add those gold plated nano-wires that convert heat to electricity, so they can be autonomous for years on end. *walks away whistling as the world burns behind him*
-- All this knowledge is giving me a raging brainer.
.... Morbius?
This is my opinion. To make sure you don't steal it, it's covered by the DMCA.
Something is amiss with this. I can understand the robot reacting to the "signals" from the neurons but.. how do the neurons know where the walls are? I would imagine that 3,000 neurons isn't enough to parse any input it is being provided ( ultra-sound by the looks of it ) let alone figure out which direction to move in to avoid them.
The disappearing pencil trick. Let me show you it.
Suddenly, I just can't stop screaming.
No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
Am I the only one who fails to see how these rodent zombie robots have anything to do with Alzheimer's?
Obviously, you get more funding if you include a hot research topic in the project description.
Researchers were all like, "Hey, let's build a robot with a rat brain, that will be fun!" But then one of them said, "But how will we fund this pointless yet awesome endeavor?". To that the reply was, "umm... let's just tell everyone it'll help cure Alzheimer's or epilepsy or autism or something, they'll have to fund it then."
A unique way to learn a language: http://languageloom.com
What? Is he serious, making a statement like that? Does he think grants grow on trees, that he can so blithely disregard the opportunity for sensationalistic coverage and the resultant exposure to those who issue private grants? Sure, Alzheimer's is mentioned, which is a nice hook, but he needs to make ridiculous claims in order to break through the wall of grant-deniers.
Sheesh. What is the academic world coming to, that they make responsible statements regarding their research?
"Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
Actually GP is correct ... he is referring to People for the Insensitive Treatment of Animals.
If libertarians are so opposed to effective government, why don't they all move to Somalia?
I totally thought this was about some greenhorn politicians ;) Ok, I think I feel my karma dropping already.
What exactly would robots with rat brains want to do, since they can't do any of their natural biological functions?
Taking guns away from the 99% gives the 1% 100% of the power.
Unlike rats, you can't eat a robot.
What?!
http://twitter.com/OLDTELEGRAM
Will these rat things be programmed never to break the sound barrier in a populated area?
Hugely inflated claims? From Captain Cyborg? To generate press attention?
Film, as they say, at eleven.
Perhaps you could try RTFAing, then applying some logical thought.
They're studying how disassociated nerons make new connections and can be trained to reliably respond to stimuli, and how that response can be used to create predictable behavior.
Now go ahead STFW for the pathophysiology of Alzheimers, and it's pretty easy to see how this could be useful in understanding Alzheimers, and perhaps in (eventually, with a lot of steps inbetween) help either prevent it, delay its onset, or reverse it.
"Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
Insensitive? The rat has no brain, hard for it to sense much of anything. *badum-chi*
FTW. Who are they trying to kid? They are building man/machine interfaces. Unless they plan of replacing human CNS components (brain stem?) with electronics then I don't see the connection at all.
They should just come clean and say what they are doing, which is probably cool in itself, but a little spooky; they are building cyborgs.
But that isn't going to nail any grants from the NIH, so they go with the "aid to the afflicted" thing. Crap. And if they are going to lie and deflect on the basics, I guess they'll not end it there: Who said those are rat neurons? When does it become not rat neurons but human neurons, who decides that, and who advocates for those human neurons? When it is human, what does that make the rolling "machine" under those neurons -- a mobility assistance device? What if the damned thing exhibits delta waves at some point?
Send that whole team to a week-long ethics retreat -- every year -- we can *not* afford any f*ckups on this one.
=^..^= all your rodent are belong to us
That's nothing compared to the robot-brained rats I've been working on!
"Rat-Brained Robots" would make a good name for a punk band.
Proverbs 21:19
Am I the only one who fails to see how these rodent zombie robots have anything to do with Alzheimer's?
Well I assume it's because having a zombie rat robot come at you is something not even an Alzheimer's sufferer would forget.
The enemies of Democracy are
This is simultaneously one of the more interesting, exciting, and terrifying news Items I've seen a while.
Conquer the world, of course. This was the first conclusion I came to.
My comments are my own, and do not represent the views of my employer, my spouse, my children, or my cats.
What are we going to do tomorrow night?
The same thing we do every night, TRY TO TAKE OVER THE WORLD!
What's the value of information that you don't know?
Oh, come on, you paranoid person! It's not like they put rats in control of tanks and filled the world with cheese. They are experimenting with a proof of concept. They aren't going to take this to the cartoonish conclusion that you guys are jumping to. LOL
Currently hooked on AMP
It's PETA. Not Pain In The Ass (although some do feel that way about them); People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals.
People Eating Tasty Animals
== First cross river, then insult alligator.
We are Borg you will be assimilated... STOMP. Assimilate that.
It's about learning how to reroute data through the parts of the brain that are damaged. Or perhaps to replace those parts.
Utilizing the synergization of benchmark e-solutions to pre-workaround action items!
Kill all humans.
We know where leadership by an anti-intellectual "strongman" who scapegoats minorities and likes boisterous rallies goes
I keep imagining a robot that keeps trying to crawl behind the fridge when you turn on the lights!
The same thing we do every night, Pinky - try to take over the world.
Are these rat things powered by radio-isotopes? If so, I think Stephenson may have some prior art in the area.
Anonymous Coward here. No reason to be rude. I read the article. What I don't understand is why they need to be connected to robots. It just seems like Alzheimer's is a secondary goal here, since I'm sure they could do experiments about training neurons to respond to stimuli that are less costly.
I'm even fine with them hooking the robot up to an ultrasound. What I don't understand is the need for them to build a bluetooth robot to process the results. It seems silly.
Actually this reminds me of an anime recently released in Japan by the name of Ghost Hound, apparently by the same person who did Ghost in the Shell and supposedly of the same quality. I wouldn't know, I've only seen half the series but what I saw was relatively thought provoking and definitely interesting.
A random bag of paper clips would do the same.
Call me back when they have decision making.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
Off in the distance: "Brains, braaiinnss..."
It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
How long until we have the first rat-brained cruise missile? ICBM? How far are we ahead of the Chinese in rat-brain technology? How big is the rat-brain GAP? Will anyone miss Wisconsin?
"There is nothing to do it. But to do it." -Floyd Pepper
All hail our cheese eating robotic overlords!
I only look human.
My mother is a halfling and my dad is an ogre, so that makes me an Ogreling
For all we really know, we are nothing more then an AI experiment.
NARF!
Uh oh.. it can only be a short time until we're under siege from an army of very small Cybermen.
So this means when I get Alzheimer's, I can get a rat-brain-controlled robot to do my chores..?
Move all sig!
I found this article... then checked Slashdot.
Where have all the intelligent slashdotters gone? Let's all STOP trying to come up with the funniest one-liner and talk about the subject at hand here.
They have taken brain cells and taught them to control a robot. This is simply freakin' astounding!
What else has been done related to this such as MEMS? Anyone?
programming myself into obsolescence
Well, the robot in this case performs two functions: one is to provide the stimuli, one is to measure the response. It's a machine capable of locomotion.
The reason for the bluetooth is because the braincell broth needs to be maintained at a certain temperature and kept stable, and wireless is probably the best way to make sure the robot doesn't damage the brain cells or upset their alignment, say by jerking on an electrode tether.
I see your point, it does seem awfully gimmicky... but the nice thing about it is that it is modular. Their "sensory" system can be swapped out easily for additonal experiments.
"Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
Seriously... if the outcome of that similar-themed Shadowrun campaign we did all those years ago is any indication, these people need to be stopped at any cost...
Pronounced "Redding" if you ever need to speak the name aloud. In the same vein as Leicester is pronounced Lester, not Ly-sester.
They are using tissue cultured from a rat brain. They could have taken a sample of brain tissue and then grown it in the lab. The rat may still be alive. Until we know for sure though, the only conlcusion we can make is that the rat is both alive and dead.
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It's alive!!! ALIIIIIIIIVE!!!
(cue Oingo Boingo...)
"You're getting brutal, Sark. Brutal and needlessly sadistic."
"Thank you, Master Control"
-Sark and the MCP
What could possibly go wrong?
The eventual capacity to man neurons will bring one of the most vapid lines ever to enter cinema to reality.
*plugs in* *whooshing sound* "I know kung fu"
VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
Start to catch cats?
Hey! You kids get of my
In post Patriot Act America, the library books scan you.
I for one, congratulate the RIAA for taking their first steps.
Somehow seems unlikely. Basically they're taking brain cells from a rat fetus. Now, PETA members should be on the far left, which means they should be supporting stem cell research*, and therefore should be very far away from those on the far right who might complain about aborting rats.
* This is a one way containment, I'm not implying that only far lefties approve of stem cell research
Oh, hell... /me ducks behind flame shield and runs from flamebait mod
Rat Race for Ratty-assed Rangy Robots?
(That subject is NOT the sound of a chihuahau in my computer.... Plus, I doubt dogs can make the "F" sound, hehe)
What's next, dog brains in robots? (Nah, some people who defile some Koreans for eating dog meat would be up in robocopic arms if Fido or FiFi ended up in a little robo-chassis..))
RaRoFo
Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
I was thinking of the same question. The way the brain evolves to understand what survival means now that food is not an issue but energy ... electric energy that is ... will be an interesting process to watch.
mov ax,4c00h
int 21h
I suggest you check out SNOW CRASH by Neal Stephenson.
Fido is a good puppy and a pit bull terrier known as a "Rat Thing" by others. He's a biologically-brained robotic guard dog that does bad things to bad people, as he should.
Andy Out!
Is this the shape of things to come?
I hear see the "Yo Quero Robo Belle", and Squi-Squi-Squi-Squi-Squi-Sqeeee- and RaRaFoRaRaROH sounds in the combat circles... Olympus battles Zeus/Aphrodite. ZA wins. Will ZA MOUNT Olympus?
Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
FTA (unabridged):
This work will hopefully contribute to our knowledge of how brains work, but its potential should not be wasted on that, says Potter. "This system is a model. Everything it does is merely similar to what goes on in the brain, it's not really the same thing. We can learn about the boring brain - but when we make sentient Monster Trucks, that will truly be badass." He then pumped his fist 3 times and held up the sign of the goat for a few seconds before returning to a screaming guitar solo.
I am the richest astronaut ever to win the superbowl.
it does seem awfully gimmicky.
yeah.. "Rise of the rat-brained robots" sounds way cooler than "1 volt signal causes 100-microvolt reaction in rat brain neurons"
They could have measured the same results just with input and output wires.. no need to hook them up to sensors and motors.. they just did it for attention.
just as we cast off our own faith in our gods, cursing them and labeling them as myths, our own creations, built in our own image, will inevitably do the same. The only question is this: will our robots succeed in destroying us, or will we succeed in destroying them?
I don't know if it is a question of destruction or of domination. Will we create a race of AI robots for the sole purpose of enslaving them? If we have the relationship with our robots of Creator/Creation will that make us slave owners once AI achieves sentience? Look at robotic factories, the work long hours for no pay and are modified or replaced or sold at the whim of their owner, if you did that with a person they would be a slave. Of course they are machines not people so it is just a factory not slavery. But if those robots where sentient would it change the moral argument. If that argument concludes that it would in fact be slavery, is there any reason to build AI robots if we cannot treat them as slaves? I don't want to have to allow my Roomba the freedom to go work for someone else, or the right to be paid for it's work.
We are all just people.
I am thrilled to see this breakthrough. Now we just need to find a way to develop this further so that I can finally finish my sharkbrain controlled lasers.
Does the mass of neurons have consciousness? Does it think, even in a simple way?
Does it have emotion and feelings?
A common argument against the possibility of AI is that man-made devices would have no soul. The counter argument to that is why not? Who are you to say God(s) wouldn't give it a soul? Maybe souls are spontaneous and require no divine creation. For those that believe in souls and God(s) this would seem to indicate that souls are capable of interfacing with whatever sort of brain tissue is available. It could be argued that if the mass of neurons has a soul then God doesn't object, or maybe he's a non-interventionist. Or maybe we're just interacting with a sensory-deprived rat soul. Who knows.
Religion aside, let's look at ethics. Is this a good thing to do? Where do we draw the ethical line? Did we steal the neurons from the unborn rat, or does the rat even care?
This is a real philosophical can of worms and should fuel some interesting discussion.
The rat has no brain, hard for it to sense much of anything.
Actually, in a related article, they have managed to get the rat body to run off of a Basic Stamp.
When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
I thought this was another RIAA article. Oh well...
It walks down stairs
alone or in pairs
and makes the slinkety sound
What are we going to do tomorrow night? The same thing we do every night, TRY TO ASSIMILATE THE WORLD!
There, fixed it for you.
-Ours is the wisdom of Solomon, the magic of Merlyn, the fall of Icaris.
Okay, then, I hope to become a famous male supermodel.
If you say, "No way", I will say you have become overly sensitive.
Schroedinger's Rat?
Tsukasa: All I really want, is to be left alone...
Perhaps you could try RingTFA, then applying some logical thought.
There, fixed that for you. Carry On.
#include bier;
Call me when they have interfaced a disembodied adult rat brain via wi-fi to the Sony Aibo and I will be impressed, before then, don't bother me with this trivial stuff.
Tsukasa: All I really want, is to be left alone...
PETA are not really lefties. Proper lefties hate (capitalist) pigs and (running) dogs, and we want to get rid of all the (fat) cats.
What if Tetris was invented by Nazis?
Someone ask Bush's former bioethics council chairman Leon Kass if this is more or less offensive to bioethical dignity than eating an ice cream cone on the sidewalk.
Like most in-vitro research, these results may or may not give an indication to what sort of applications may come from the results (ie. a robot controlled by a change in a neuron's membrane potential). However, it won't be until these neuroscientists get a robot to respond to field potentials from an ALIVE cortically implanted rat (or another in-vivo model) will the results be useful enough to apply to remedial research. These results to people who study neuronscience are not a big deal--getting a predictable electrical response from a group of neurons in a petri dish is not a problem--these neurons have ion channels which are voltage gated and respond quite predictably to changes in membrane potential (the concentrations of ions around the membrane). I don't know why everyone is thinking live rats are controlling robots.
"Engineering. Where the noble, semi-skilled laborers execute the vision of those who think and dream." -Sheldon
Looks like the neurons currently don't have feedback. Adding feedback would be neat. Of course, hitting a wall is negative, finding "food" or avoiding a wall would be negative. I don't know the actual mechanism for feedback/training that the brain uses, but try to trigger it.
So, the current project exploits reflex behavior -- expand it to learned behavior.
See if the little buggers can train themselves...
Just another "Cubible(sic) Joe" 2 17 3061
If real rats can be a vector for a real virus (Black Death) then imagine what kind of vector these rats might be (BLUE screen of DEATH)!
(yes, I know, I know. It was the fleas. But still...)
I won't join Slashcott. OTOH, If Beta goes live, I just won't be back until it's fixed. Sorry Dice.
The team at the University of Reading in the UK hope their research will help provide treatments for diseases like Alzheimer's and epilepsy.
Or, a whole new line of really cool robotic rat-brain controlled toys.
Why? I like my body. I love my body...
hey!
To be completely pedantic, that should have been "perhaps you could try to RTFA", since it preserves the conjugation of "to read" in RTFA.
"Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
PITA?
like what they wrap a doner kebab in?
I always wondered what that doner option on my drivers license meant...
yeah, thanks for clearing that up, because the meaning of what you were trying to say was completely obfuscated by not adding those extra two or three letters.
I'm just glad someone around here could make such huge leap in comprehension for us all.
Nothing, because rats do not like cheese.
I just figured that if someone was getting all pedantic on me, I'd up the ante and out-pedant them. It would be useful if every grammar pedant out there remembered that there's always a bigger pedant waiting around the corner... and that just because I choose not to bother with perfect grammar doesn't mean that I'm not capable of it.
"Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
I'm not sure of the publication date, but probably in the late 1950s to early-1960s Philip K. Dick wrote a novel where the hero had a reel-to-reel stereo system that had to be watered and fed every day because its electronics depended on living brain cells as circuitry. (I think the cells came from some weird sentient slime mold they found on Ganymede.)
Now, aside from the automatic-cool factor of a PKD connection, I find these Frankenstein-type experiments troubling from a moral standpoint. (Anyone that knows me personally probably just blew coffee out of their noses.)
I'm a rabid technophile, but animals do experience terror and therefore are aware on some level. These experiments, admittedly still in the rudimentary stages, are generally headed toward using living animal brains to control machines. I can't imagine a more horrifying situation for a creature that didn't volunteer for it. (I, for one, would actually consider it, but it'd have to be one damned cool robot.)
I guess I feel the same way about these sort of things as I do when reading of consciousness continuing after human decapitations for a minute or longer. Just because something can be done doesn't mean it needs to be. And this feels really, really wrong to me.
"No matter where you go, there you probably are." -- Buckaroo Heisenberg
A real stainless steel rat?
I just figured that if someone was getting all NAZI on me, I'd up the ante and out-NAZI them. It would be useful if every grammar NAZI out there remembered that there's always a bigger NAZI waiting around the corner... and that just because I choose not to bother with perfect grammar doesn't mean that I'm not capable of it.
There, I fixed that one for ya too. Carry on.
#include bier;
RTFA *AND* SFTW? For pathophysiology of Alzheimers no less?
I think that's just asking way too much of the average /.er here.
Amazing. It reminds me of the concept of the "Quantum Leap" computer, where neurons from 2 humans are used as the basis of the core brain of the "Quantum" computer named Ziggy.
Science-fiction is becoming less and less fiction, so, I tell you, we sure do live in interesting times, and I'm glad to be a part of this.
The possibilities for this are tremendous! For instance, imagine for the blind, a tool based on this technology which would allow them to be able to know what they face around them! A talking "virtual" seeing eye dog application so to speak! I know the goal for the blind is to restore their sight, but this is an alternative until its done. Imagine this in situation where you require an unmanned probe with some form of decision making process, should there be something that could be a threat to its functions.
I could go on here, but, again.. wow this is really cool news!
That was amazing. :-)
Move all sig!
Vivisection is sick and should be stopped. We don't condone the "research" nazis did on jews. When will animals have any rights on this planet? When will the torture stop?
Signature says it all:
In Soviet Russia a beowulf cluster of these things imagines you welcoming your new, neural-network overlords.
"Why is it wrong for scientists to attract attention?"
Of course, it is not wrong. What is wrong is LYING to get attention. What is wrong is Slashdot carrying a lot of stories about fake science that happens to want investors.
Most people don't know the meaning of science, yet know it is important. It is easy to take advantage of them.
Thanks for that comment. I knew nothing about Kevin Warwick until I read the Wikipedia article about him. He's not really involved in science, apparently, it's theater.
Story is old news. They've had these robots working in post offices in the US for years.
I wonder how the brain feels when it's "swapped out"?
"Ooh, sensory perception, I'm awake!"
trundle trundle
"Ooh, no sensory perception. Guess I suddenly fell asleep. Except I don't have sleep hormones so I'll just hallucinate?"
there is no god but truth, and reality is its prophet
"RTFA" is still a legitimate acronym. "Reading" starts with an R.
Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
Am I the only one who fails to read the article?
No.
sudo ergo sum