Apple Announces New MacBook, Pro, Air

Steve Jobs just got through announcing new MacBook lines in Cupertino. The MacBook, the Pro, and the Air all got revved. The old line of plastic-body MacBooks drops in price by $100, to $999. The new MacBooks have a metal body and multi-touch trackpad, just like the new Pros. The Pro features two NVidia graphics chips. Quoting Jobs: "With the 9400M, you get 5 hours of battery life, with the 9600M GT you get four hours of battery life. You choose." In summary: "We're building both [MacBook and Pro] in a whole new way. From a slab of aluminum to a notebook. New graphics. New trackpad, the best we've ever built. And LED-backlit displays that are far brighter, instant on, far more environmentally responsible." They are shipping today and should be in stores tomorrow. Oh, and one more thing: Steve's blood pressure is 110/70.

Comments

Refurb Price Drops!

[0100010001010011]

Woot. I've been looking to get an upgrade to my MBP (1st gen). This means all the 'old' stock is going to get dropped into the refurb store or sold cheaply through other channels.

Re:Refurb Price Drops!

[0100010001010011]

Yesterday a refurb (current generation) 15.4" MBP was $1699 (Discounted from $1999). Right now it's at $1349.

Multitouch, matte screen, etc.

Store.apple.com.
Refurbed Macs (Lower left)
Scroll down.

Re:Refurb Price Drops!

[ducomputergeek]

Or Go to Macmall.com and look at their price drop section. 2.4Ghz MBP with 15.4" screen, 2GB Ram, 16-GB HDD, $1550. 2.2Ghz for even less. And you get Parallels free.

Re:Refurb Price Drops!

[aliquis]

I doubt their glossy one is anything different and better but still people do have different opinions in this question. Quite a few people actually like glossy screens, some don't.

I have a glossy one (Two generations old MBP?), I have no problems whatsoever with it.

I think it's a much bigger deal that THEY KEYBOARD REST AGAINST YOUR SCREEN. Wtf is up with that? How is that a good design decision? My screen gots "shades" of some of the keys on it. Yeah, excellent!! How very well though off!

And then I very rarely bring the notebook anywhere so you can imagine how it would be if it traveled around closed a lot.

Other issues is obviously TN-panel, low resolution, slow TN-panel on top of that.

Re:Refurb Price Drops!

[lmnfrs]

For reference store.apple.com is terrible. This is likely a rare case, but it happened.

Objective: I ordered a refurbished iPod from store.apple.com but it wouldn't charge via my computer or the wall adapter. I called their tech support, but they wouldn't help me at first because my warranty had expired. Eventually they decided the wall adapter was the culprit, and sent a replacement. It didn't work either. I had to return the iPod.

Subjective: My "refurbished" iPod didn't work at all. I was sure it was the iPod because it wouldn't charge via the firewire connector in my PC or the wall adapter. I called tech support, but the "genius" on the other end told me my warranty expired two months ago. How the hell did a one year warranty expire 1.5 months _before_ I made the purchase? Eventually, said "genius" claimed the iPod was not broken, the wall adapter was. The fact that the firewire port didn't charge the iPod either was because it was a PC's firewire port. Sometimes PC's firewire ports are only 4 wires instead of 6. I informed the moron that I had built the PC myself, it was a front panel port connected with a wiring harness, and it did in fact have 6 wires.
"It's probably the wall adapter, we'll send you a new one."
...
After waiting a week the new adapter came and it didn't charge the iPod. I called to complain, but my warranty had expired. I was forced to return the iPod, but they wouldn't tell me how I could ship the broken, never refurbished (this is why the serial number lead to an iPod with an expired warranty; it was returned as broken and they simply threw it in a pile of refurbished iPods and sold it to me), piece of junk.
They shipped me a completely broken piece of hardware and I had to make several calls to DHL to figure out how to return it.

It just works.

Re:Refurb Price Drops!

[Hes Nikke]

And i got a refurb MacBook this spring (2.2 Ghz C2D, 4 GB RAM, 120 GB HD and 2 and a half years of AppleCare - i'll sell it to you for $1000 so i can get a new one!) and haven't had a single issue.

I'll see your random antictdote and raise you AppleCare!

Re:Refurb Price Drops!

[electrictroy]

Why are Apples so darn expensive? I like Macs, but I just can't afford the bill.

(shrug)

I bought a used XP laptop for $70 off ebay. It's a little slower than my desktop, but still plays downloaded TV shows just fine.

Re:Refurb Price Drops!

[lmnfrs]

Well, like I said, it's probably a rarity. The feedback on the site I linked is about 50/50. It's either high praise or huge disappointment.

As for your AppleCare, I'll raise you a generic anecdote: I don't think worry of an unlikely situation should be motivation for buying an extended warranty.
If I ever get Apple anything again, it will be from a local Apple owned store. Just in case..

First post?

[line-bundle]

It's amazing how AAPL stock drops after an announcement.

Buy on rumor. sell on fact.

Re:First post?

[anaesthetica]

If I had the money, I would have a standing short on every day that Apple has a conference. There's always a speculative run-up in the price and a drop when the actual announcement is made.

Re:First post?

[norminator]

I am not an economist (IANAE), but shouldn't that be sell on rumor (when it's high), and buy on fact (when it's low)?

Re:First post?

[HansF]

It's called short selling. Check wikipedia

Re:First post?

[MrHanky]

Or he described what is actually happening, and what happens happens to be stupid.

Re:First post?

[PolygamousRanchKid]

Yes, I was going to post that ... but to add a little more, it is the difference between "investing", and "speculating." Short selling is "speculating" ... buying low is "investing."

Have you ever heard someone call Warren Buffet a speculator?

He's an investor.

Re:First post?

[mo]

Short sales can be used in reliable investing strategies. For example, say you purchased the S&P 500 index for a long-term investment, but you feel that the auto manufacturers are a bad play for the next few years. You can short an equivalent amount of auto stocks to effectively remove that component from your S&P holdings.

Re:First post?

[EastCoastSurfer]

Short selling also gives investors who think a stock is overpriced a way to express that thought. The SEC has found through small studies that allowing short sales does help the stock reach an 'efficient' price at a faster rate.

Keep in mind I'm talking about actual short selling and not naked short selling.

Re:First post?

[ceoyoyo]

That's how the smart cookies do it. They're the ones who get 5-10% discounts on Apple stock by buying immediately after an announcement.

Re:First post?

[eclectic4]

I seriously need to take a course in economics. You just stated this as if everyone would be enlightened by it, yet I didn't understand one word of it.

It's not you, it's obviously me. My issue is that it sounds like I should know what it means. Crap...

Re:First post?

[addaon]

You don't need a course for this, just to do some reading. The biggest thing to understand is that the things you buy in the market (whether they're shares of stock, or the short sale of stock, or options or other derivatives) are just contracts that reflect a belief. That is, a standard stock purchase is buying a contract that will give you a profit if your belief (that the company's value will increase over the time period you hold the contract) holds. A short sale is just buying a contract that will give you a profit if your opposing belief (that the company's value will decrease) holds. The mechanics of the contract are interesting (a short sale is a sale of stock you borrow for the purpose of selling; to close the contract you must return the stock by purchasing it at then-current prices), but are merely an instantiation of your goal. Once you start thinking this way, derivatives and ETFs and all those other things make lots of sense. Just state your belief -- "i think that fourteen days from now AAPL's stock price will have decreased by more than 5% but less than 10%" -- and then figure out what mechanism exists (and there's almost always something, these days) that reflects exactly that intention. Now, before you start buying based on this understanding, you need to start thinking about confidence intervals and such, but it's a major start.

Re:First post?

[mattack2]

Why? The individual shares are indistinguishable. As long as you have your X shares when you want to sell them, why does it matter if someone else has borrowed them in the meantime? Also, as far as I understand, it's a standard part of a trading account that you allow your shares to be shared for short selling.

AFAIK, the borrowed shares can be ordered to be returned at any time, which can cause the borrower's broker to buy new shares to replace yours without their direct action... I think.

(Even after reading the wikipedia entry on 'naked short selling', I don't really get that though. It sounds like it's just an "open" short selling trade that hasn't happened yet.. but it's being regulated against?)

Re:First post?

[syousef]

As long as you have your X shares when you want to sell them

My understanding is that short selling means you don't have the shares (you're "short") but plan to buy them cheaply at a later date because you believe their price will go down. If the price goes up you actually lose money, but what if you can't get them at all? The company goes bust for (an admittedly extreme) instance.

It's like having 2 friends (I know unimaginable for slashdot). One has a car and the other wants to buy it. You tell the one that wants to buy it that you can get it for him for $5000. He accepts and you take the cash. Now you go over to the one who actually owns it and tell him you can sell it for $4000 (hoping to pocket $1000 yourself for nothing more than arranging the deal). Now the owner may have crashed the car, may refuse to sell it etc. So you've sold someone something you don't own on the gamble that you'll be allowed to own it. Now you're forced to offer $8000 to get your friend to sell it just to meet your legal obligation. He's under no obligation to oblige.

Re:First post?

[vijayiyer]

Your analogy doesn't quite work because cars aren't really identical.
The way short selling works is that you borrow the shares and sell them. During this period, you pay interest on the loan. Then, when you want to close your position, you buy shares.
If you have to use your analogy, it's like borrowing a brand new unused car from your friend (paying him a fee for his trouble) and selling it for $5000. Then you go buy the exact same unused car from a dealer for $4000, and give that to your friend. He can't tell the difference, and you made $1k.

Re:First post?

[mattack2]

I meant the person whose shares were being borrowed.. As long as they (the person being borrowed from) has their shares when they want to sell them, what does it matter if someone else can borrow them since they're indistinguishable?

Re:First post?

[mrchaotica]

I was enlightened by it, and I'm no economist.

What he essentially said was that if you buy S&P 500 index funds, you essentially buy X shares of auto manufacturer stock (along with X shares of every other stock in the S&P 500 -- that's what an index fund is). But what if you don't want the auto manufacturer stock? Obviously you want to sell it, but you can't because it's part of the index fund. So instead you short the stock (i.e., sell shares you don't actually own, and then buy them back to cover it later), which is essentially equivalent to "buying" a negative number of shares. +X shares + (-X) shares = 0 shares. Get it now? I thought it was pretty neat...

Re:First post?

[syousef]

That hole in the analogy is irrelevant. (No analogy is perfect). My entire point is that the shares may not necessarily be available to buy at a later point in time.

Re:First post?

[syousef]

My entire point is that the shares may not necessarily be available to buy at a later point in time.

Re:First post?

[vijayiyer]

If it's not available to buy back, it has dropped to zero value. Why is it an issue if you can't buy back worthless shares?

Re:First post?

[EastCoastSurfer]

If you assume that naked shorting wasn't allowed you can never have more shares shorted than are outstanding on the stock.

The main issue that you're describing though is known as a short squeeze. Shares of a stock are generally always available to buy, but you may have to pay a higher price to get them. When all of the shorts cover the act of covering can itself drive up the stock price. This upward movement is known as the short squeeze. Take a look at what happened to Volkswagon stock last week. So many shorts covered at once it pushed the stock up 50-60% in a day.

Re:First post?

[syousef]

If it's not available to buy back, it has dropped to zero value. Why is it an issue if you can't buy back worthless shares?

Stock dropping to zero value is only one scenario. Usually if a company goes bust the shares are no longer traded. Ignoring that for a moment, what happens if there are no shares being sold? What happens if trading is suspended? The fundamental thing is that you don't own what you're selling in the first place. In my opinion you shouldn't ever be permitted to sell something you don't own.

Re:First post?

[jabithew]

It really depends on what you mean by investing. If you bundle the short into a black box into which you put your money and out of which you get returns then it is an investment for you. On the other hand, from the point of view of the companies shorted it is not an investment.

This distinction between speculation as 'bad' and investment as 'good' is foolish anyway. Both speculation and investment have good reasons to exist. At the moment speculators are driving down the price of oil. Is anybody complaining? No. They only complain when things go badly and they need a scapegoat.

p.s. Buttonwood had a good piece on shorting recently.

Re:First post?

[cnystrom]

> It's amazing how AAPL stock drops after an announcement. Buy on rumor. sell on fact.

If this is true then you want to buy after the announcement and sell on the rumour. "Buy low, sell high" trumps "buy on the rumour..."

Re:First post?

[catmistake]

gee, I wonder if that's what causes the predictable fluctuation...

Re:First post?

[vijayiyer]

Using that rationale, banking itself should not exist. The principle behind a bank is that they take deposits and make loans to make a profit. The loan is made using depositor money.

As for suspended trading, in that scenario, the person who is long the shares cannot cash out their position, so there is no need to buy back shares during that period to return them. Besides, suspension should not occur, as that violates basic principles of the market.

There is no such thing as shares not being sold. In an illiquid market, the price just rises until someone sells. This is what happens if you put a market order in for some extremely low volume stock - you can actually watch it happen on the ticker before your eyes. Even if a company's stock is held by 2 people, and Person B sells it to a third person, they can always buy back from Person C to return it to Person A at some price.

Can you find a single case where anybody has actually been harmed by the issues you've presented?

Re:First post?

[syousef]

Using that rationale, banking itself should not exist. The principle behind a bank is that they take deposits and make loans to make a profit. The loan is made using depositor money.

Congrats you win the best straw man of the year so far.

Banks do not lend money they don't already have. If it's on loan, that's fine. When people deposit money they know it's used to finance other people's loans. If a bank started lending money they didn't have, solely because they were expecting to get it one day, that'd be a closer analogy.

As for suspended trading, in that scenario, the person who is long the shares cannot cash out their position, so there is no need to buy back shares during that period to return them. Besides, suspension should not occur, as that violates basic principles of the market.

Suspensions of trade can and do occur to give the market pause and prevent panic selling. Without them viable companies would go bust.

There is no such thing as shares not being sold. In an illiquid market, the price just rises until someone sells.

I don't agree with you. Sometimes people hold onto things and choose not to sell them at any price.

With naked shorting there's also the possibility that more shares are sold than exist in the first place. Eg. A company has a total of 100 shares but 130 shares are sold short.

Can you find a single case where anybody has actually been harmed by the issues you've presented?

Are you serious??? Read the f'ing newspaper.

Glossy only?

[VValdo]

From what I've been reading on the liveblogs, these new notebooks are available in glossy screens only, even for the MBP. If that's the case, I think a lot of people will be pretty upset.

W

Re:Glossy only?

[VValdo]

Answering my own query:

11:01AM Q: Concern about the glossy screens. Are you going to offer another option?
A: Steve: We're going all glass -- we won't offer another version. Phil: You offset the reflection by the brightness, and consumers love it. One of the great things about a notebook is you can turn it however you want!

Uh, yeah. Great. Guess I'm keeping my matte for a while.

W

Re:Glossy only?

[SilentChris]

Not really. Apple's marketshare has switched from Mr. Graphic Designer to Joe Collegestudent. Mr. Graphic Designer wants older matte screens because they supposedly reproduce colors better (the same reason they held onto CRTs well after LCDs debuted). Joe Collegestudent wants "popping" colors for photos, deeper blacks, etc. In other words, they want their computers to be modeled after consumer devices like LCD TVs -- they could care less about color reproduction.

Me, personally, I like the glossy screens. My laptop purchases are purely for home use where I look at photos, watch movies and play games. I think most of Apple's buyers are similar in their interests now.

If you want a matte screen, there's plenty of other laptops choose from. Apple wouldn't be selling new laptops with glossy screens if the old ones weren't selling reasonably well.

Re:Glossy only?

[falcon5768]

be ready though, even Dell is dropping their matte options. Pretty soon none of the laptops will have it.

Re:Glossy only?

[pz]

Mr. Graphic Designer wants older matte screens because they supposedly reproduce colors better (the same reason they held onto CRTs well after LCDs debuted).

I'm Mr. Dabbles in Graphic Design Person. You need to remove the "supposedly" in your statement above, especially when it comes to CRTs vs LCDs. High end LCDs are almost as good as decent CRTs, mostly because LCDs significantly change color with viewing angle. When you're worried about graphic design or photography, getting the color right is really important, and even slight color shifts are unacceptable.

I'm also Mr. Professional Visual Neuroscientist Who Does Some Colorimetric Work. No serious colorimetric work is yet being done with LCDs for the very same reason: a green dot needs to be exactly the same green whether it's presented in the middle of the screen or at the edge. With CRTs that's the case. With LCDs, assuming the viewing position is the same, the viewing angle changes slightly between those two screen locations, and the color is altered.

I had cause to use a glossy screen laptop recently. Couldn't wait to get rid of it, as I was distracted by my own reflection, or a reflection of the things behind me, or the lights, or whatever else was at the right (or wrong?) angle. Until LCD screens get some really good antiglare coating, matte is the way to go.

Re:Glossy only?

[Utini420]

Why?
I'm not trolling, honest question. Why are so many manufacturers going to glossy LCDs? Cheaper to build, what? 'Cause every end user I support hates the things. Except one, and he always likes to be different anyway.

What benefit, real or imagined, do hardware makers think/believe/want us to believe, is to be had from glossy screens?

Re:Glossy only?

[4D6963]

My sister just bought a VAIO and she was telling me how awesomely glossy the reflective screen was... I guess people just love shiny things...

Re:Glossy only?

[SilentChris]

Simple question: do you think Apple is marketing the new Macbooks for Mr. Joe Collegestudent or Mr. Professional Visual Neuroscientist Who Does Some Colorimetric Work?

Apple spends 9/10 of their time marketing. Always hasl. Mr. Professional Visual Neuroscientist Who Does Some Colorimetric Work arguably won't get the laptop marketed for its Word processing and gaming use.

Re:Glossy only?

[Anonymous Coward]

They seem brighter due ambient reflection. Brighter = Better to a lot of people. Same with music. Louder = Better.

Re:Glossy only?

[Anonymous Coward]

CRTs are prone to convergence issues. There's no way you can rely on the border being the same as the center. The further from the middle you get the worse it gets, the bigger the screen, the worse it gets. Unless you're spending an hour each day recalibrating, you're not going to get consistent coloring over the full screen, unless you are limiting to a single R G or B gun.

Re:Glossy only?

[Anonymous Coward]

I personally love my glossy screen and would never again consider a matte option.

For one, glossy screens are easier to clean. With laptops, it's somewhat inevitable that the screen will get fingerprints on it. With a matte screen, you need a specific wipe/spray to clean. My glossy display cleans easily with a damp paper towel. Glossy screens also showcase vibrant colors better than matte screens. This is probably why so many manufacturers are pushing glossy...under the right conditions, stuff just looks better on a glossy screen. But I would bet that Apple is moving to glossy in preparation for laptops where the screen is touch-sensitive (ala iPhone/iPod).

And having used one for the past year, the glare issue is really a red herring. I don't notice it. In fact I find the glossy screens more usable in sunlight conditions since they appear brighter than the matte. I actually find it really hard to believe your statement, "every end user I support hates the things" based on my experience. It's really hard to fathom that anyone who has actually used a glossy display for any serious amount of time wouldn't prefer it to a matte display.

Re:Glossy only?

[Random Destruction]

Hi! It's Mr Joe Collegestudent here.

As I sit on the fourth floor of the engineering building, with its floor to ceiling windows, and the sun pouring in, I am left thanking $DEITY that my thinkpad has a matte screen. If it had one of these terrible glossy screens, I would be viewing myself and the brilliantly lit wall behind me instead of slashdot.

Re:Glossy only?

[Jesus_666]

I'm a university student. I use my MBP in the university for note-taking and work. A glossy screen would make it next to impossible to actually do anything because we have big wall-filling rows of windows everywhere, which have bad enough reflections that I can't see anything but the windows on glossy screens.

It'd be really nice if there was a laptop for people who actually need a mobile computer to work with instead of an oversized portable DVD player. "You can position laptops any way you want" is useless when virtually all positions you can face end up with the reflection of something bright blinding you (and a window on a sunny day is most probably brighter than the LCD backlight).

Re:Glossy only?

[TheQuantumShift]

Bling. Glossy looks more expensive and quasi-futuristic. That's it. As many people as there are complaining about wanting matte now, there'd be a hojillion more asking why the high price tag when the screen looks "all old and stuff."

On another note, you call $999 an "aggressive price point?"

And where's my new sanely-priced mini? Come on, keep the current specs and drop it to $300-$400.

Re:Glossy only?

[Utini420]

All but two that have come through here got sent back to the factory. So no, no one's put any serious time in with them (except for Mr. Special) but first impressions was send 'em back.

I can see where they might be brighter (arguably better) under "ideal" conditions. It's unfortunate that a typical well-lit office does not meet this criteria.

All that said, if it was a touch screen I'd take the trade off.

BTW, thank you. Your answer was exactly what I was hoping for.

Re:Glossy only?

[Joce640k]

It's the only explanation - shiny things look nicer in shops.

I've had the same argument about how shiny screens are worse. It usually falls on deaf ears

- "But shiny must be better or they wouldn't make them that way!"

Re:Glossy only?

[rubah]

I've cleaned my matte screen with spit and newspaper before. I'm not impressed. (didn't hurt it any either)

Re:Glossy only?

[jeremyp]

If it had one of these terrible glossy screens, I would be viewing myself and the brilliantly lit wall behind me instead of slashdot.

Please clarify: you are arguing in favour of glossy screens, right?

Re:Glossy only?

[jeffb (2.718)]

I'm also Mr. Professional Visual Neuroscientist Who Does Some Colorimetric Work. No serious colorimetric work is yet being done with LCDs for the very same reason: a green dot needs to be exactly the same green whether it's presented in the middle of the screen or at the edge. With CRTs that's the case. With LCDs, assuming the viewing position is the same, the viewing angle changes slightly between those two screen locations, and the color is altered.

Under what circumstances would you actually try to do colorimetry off a screen, instead of analyzing the source data? I can't imagine why you would measure an analog rendering of digital data, confounded by ambient light, dirt on the screen and so forth, instead of just going to the digital data.

Our lab works with MRI neuro datasets, and most of the quantitative stuff happens in Matlab or ImageJ.

I haven't minded the glossy screen on my MacBook as much as I expected, but I was counting on buying a matte MBP, hopefully with better than 1440x900 resolution. I have a sinking feeling that they canned the matte displays because they like the glossy cosmetics better, especially when the screen is blank.

Re:Glossy only?

[jeffb (2.718)]

Apple spends 9/10 of their time marketing. Always hasl. Mr. Professional Visual Neuroscientist Who Does Some Colorimetric Work arguably won't get the laptop marketed for its Word processing and gaming use.

On the other hand, based on my own observations, Mr. and Ms. Professional Visual Neuroscientist seem to choose Mac over PC at a rate approaching 50%, at least in the few meetings I've attended.

Re:Glossy only?

[silent_artichoke]

Mr. Dabbles in Graphic Design Person ... Mr. Professional Visual Neuroscientist Who Does Some Colorimetric Work

Bud Light presents Real American Heroes...

Re:Glossy only?

[Fred_A]

FWIW, every user I know hates the glossy display on their laptop as well. Unfortunately there's no choice in the matter. I've never seen *one* who liked it better than a matte one.

Re:Glossy only?

[derEikopf]

And where's my new sanely-priced mini? Come on, keep the current specs and drop it to $300-$400.

But then they wouldn't sell any Apple TVs (as if people buy them anyway...).

Re:Glossy only?

[mattcasters]

Amen! I bought a test-laptop with gloss by accident a few years ago. OK, it was cheap one, but I would never ever do it again.

Re:Glossy only?

[jcr]

Glossy looks more expensive and quasi-futuristic. That's it.

Nope. A glossy screen doesn't diffuse the light coming through it. You get a sharper image from the glossy screen.

-jcr

Re:Glossy only?

[MBGMorden]

I have the exact opposite reaction.

Glossy screen a "red herring"? Yeah right. When I go into a hotel I often have to turn out every light in the room unless it's sitting completely out of LOS with my display else I get horrible glare.

As to it appearing "brighter" - law of conservation of energy would seem to make that impossible. The same ammount of light coming from one will be the same as the ammount coming from another. Now, the glossy screen will REFLECT more light, but that increased reflection is happening at the screen and not behind it - IE, any increased light reflected will have the same colors that it had when it was first hitting the screen. In a word: glare.

As to easier cleaning? Yeah, they wipe off easy. My matte displays on my desktop do so equally well with a simple 50/50 water/alchohol solution.

My last laptop was glossy screened simply because I figured it looked more modern. Having used it for a year now, I'll never buy another one.

Re:Glossy only?

[itsdapead]

Why?

Better contrast in bright light.

Properly positioned, a glossy screen reflects most of the incident light from a window or a lamp away from your eyes.

With a matte screen, the incident light is scattered in all directions so however you position it, some of that gets into your eyes. You may not notice reflections so much but it knocks down the contrast.

I suspect some glossy screens have a bad rep because they're often pitched at the domestic market and have been designed produce vivid-but-unrealistic "Kodachrome gold" colours - but I'm not convinced that's anything to do with the screen.

Re:Glossy only?

[spectre_240sx]

A sharper picture doesn't do you much good if you can't see what's on the screen due to glare.

I'm all for them selling glossy screens to people that want them, but why should I have to suffer for it? I guess I'll be sticking with my older MBP for quite some time.

Re:Glossy only?

[PigleT]

Under what circumstances would you actually try to do colorimetry off a screen, instead of analyzing the source data? I can't imagine why you would measure an analog rendering of digital data, confounded by ambient light, dirt on the screen and so forth, instead of just going to the digital data.

Hmm. Just about every time I take a photo to the printer's, I think.

Re:Glossy only?

[ITJC68]

Apple would be selling alot more laptops if their pricing was better. If they were closer in price to the pc laptops people might opt for them. Not everyone wants to drop a grand on a laptop. Sometimes a 500 dollar one will do just fine.

Re:Glossy only?

[ihatethetv]

I like glossy better myself. =)

Re:Glossy only?

[ceoyoyo]

Apple isn't going to glossy screens, they're going to glass ones. The glass happens to be glossy.

The old plastic screens could be glossy or matte, but they also scratch easier and are harder to clean.

Re:Glossy only?

[TuaAmin13]

So you're saying if we play Miley Cyrus at full blast she'll magically have talent?

Re:Glossy only?

[lucas teh geek]

And having used one for the past year, the glare issue is really a red herring. I don't notice it.

well, having used a macbook for the past year, I strongly refute that. The glare is a huge issue. Colours look great... unless theres a light source other than the laptop in the room (and dont even bother trying to use it outside or near a window), then there's glare so you tilt the screen and the colours distort. perhaps thats an issue with the shitty lcds they put in macbooks. the powerbook I had before it had far better viewing angles, whereas the macbook doesnt require much tilting for the colours to change and the contrast between light colours to disappear (for example the grey comment box outlines on slashdot "disappear"). the glossy screen has been the deciding factor for me that when I eventually replace the laptop I was going to buy from the mbp range JUST for the matte screen. and now they've taken away that option :(

Re:Glossy only?

[ceoyoyo]

He probably supports artists. A lot of glossy screens are a PITA for artists for the very reason you mention - they make colours look more vibrant. That plays havoc with your carefully colour calibrated system.

On the other hand, the newer style glass screens are pretty good.

Re:Glossy only?

[dangitman]

Apple spends 9/10 of their time marketing.

Yeah right, they only spend 1/10th of their time developing a whole Operating System, designing computers and developing new techniques for manufacturing them, designing iPods and iPhones, running a music store, writing professional and consumer video editing and DVD authoring software.

You, sir, are full of shit. If that were the case, the marketing department would dwarf the rest of Apple. But it doesn't, of course.

Re:Glossy only?

[nine-times]

High end LCDs are almost as good as decent CRTs, mostly because LCDs significantly change color with viewing angle.

When you really get down to it, the black point can still be an issue, too. For anyone who doesn't already know what I'm talking about: there's a different in how CRTs and LCDs produce the color "black".

With a CRT, colors are produced by shooting a set amount of light to a particular place in the screen, which lights the screen up from behind. "Black" is produced by not shooting light at the screen. In LCD screens, on the other hand, there is a constant backlight throughout the entire screen, and "black" is created by having part of the screen turn opaque. The problem with this method is that the screen doesn't turn *completely* opaque, and some amount of light leaks through, so your "black" isn't completely black. This effect can throw of your other colors a bit, too, and not just black.

Newer and better LCDs have gotten better at turning opaque, and so a lot less light leaks through than it did with early LCD screens. However, the issue isn't completely gone (at least not on any LCD I've used), and that's part of the reason some people still prefer CRT monitors for professional color matching.

Re:Glossy only?

[Dahamma]

For one, glossy screens are easier to clean. With laptops, it's somewhat inevitable that the screen will get fingerprints on it. With a matte screen, you need a specific wipe/spray to clean. My glossy display cleans easily with a damp paper towel

Which is more than offset by the fact you get one print on a glossy screen and it looks like someone was playing with fingerpaint on it - with my matte screen sometimes I'm amazed with how much gunk builds up before i notice it...

Glossy screens also showcase vibrant colors better than matte screens. This is probably why so many manufacturers are pushing glossy...under the right conditions, stuff just looks better on a glossy screen.

In the same way Best Buy and/or TV manufacturers turn up the color temperature to absurdly high levels, because the average half-blind consumer has never seen a properly calibrated TV. If I want everyone on my TV to look white I just change the channel to Fox News...

And having used one for the past year, the glare issue is really a red herring. I don't notice it. In fact I find the glossy screens more usable in sunlight conditions since they appear brighter than the matte. I actually find it really hard to believe your statement, "every end user I support hates the things"

In your opinion - but then again you have obviously already imbibed the Apple koolaid of "make the customer adjust to you, not you to the customer".

Re:Glossy only?

[plj]

It'd be really nice if there was a laptop for people who actually need a mobile computer to work with instead of an oversized portable DVD player.

There are, but if Apple was manufacturing those, they'd offer an option to replace that DVD drive with an extra battery so that you could actually work through the day without recharging.

Alas, they don't, so my next box will most likely be some PC that can be configured with loads of batteries, as I'm tired of carrying around a power adapter and an empty optical drive.

(Sure, batteries are heavy, but inside the case they're still quite tolerable.)

Re:Glossy only?

[AbRASiON]

One of the most stupid things the IT industry has ever latched on to, it's a ridiculous fad and it eludes me why it ever took off.
I'm convinced it's like tulip bulb mania or the housing bubble, perhaps similar to crocs or something like that.

Glossy is in my opinion faulty, it's an unusable product and should be returned as defective if you purchase one accidentally not researching if it's glossy or not (I nearly did that once, luckily a friend told me about the display being glossy only and I cancelled my order)

I'm glad people like it, good for you, I have no problem with you liking it and you're welcome to it, as long as there is a matte option for people who actually want to use their computers, rather than put it on a pedestal as a nice shiny piece of consumer electronics.

Re:Glossy only?

[Jesus_666]

I'm not too uncomfortable with that adapter - it's less than half the size of what a Dell uses. However, of course I can't say how you feel about that.

Re:Glossy only?

[StarKruzr]

Am I the only one whose eyes easily focus past this glare?

My glossy MBP is fine in this dept.

Re:Glossy only?

[Lars T.]

The 17" still seems to be available as "Antiglare".

Re:Glossy only?

[rtechie]

With LCDs, assuming the viewing position is the same, the viewing angle changes slightly between those two screen locations, and the color is altered.

You're absolutely correct. Color reproduction on LCDs sucks in general. Which is why Real Graphic Design People simply cannot use laptop displays. There ARE NO CRT (or plasma, plasma has excellent color reproduction) laptops. Every Real Graphic Design Person is using an external monitor hooked to their laptop or a desktop.

The crappy screens in laptops aren't suitable for graphic design period, glossy vs. matte has nothing to do with it.

Re:Glossy only?

[evilbessie]

How can your mac be new and shiny, if it's not shiny?

Re:Glossy only?

[AbRASiON]

Personally I'd prefer it if all you people who have got the saying wrong and then try to claim it's an adaptation or sarcasm harnessed your energy into learning how to speak english properly.

http://www.google.com.au/search?q=%22common%20english%20mistakes%22%20%22could%20care%20less%22&hl=en&meta=

I don't need to post anon, because I'm damned well right, and I couldN'T care less what you think.

Re:Glossy only?

[AbRASiON]

Here you go.
http://www.woodwardweb.com/WindowsLiveWriter/MyFirstComputers_13B49/compaqI_be80609d-c8e7-4ceb-81c0-ad6cd2e791b6.jpg

Re:Glossy only?

[alcourt]

Back when I supported CAD work, CRTs were one of our banes because of the lack of color fidelity. We weren't even trying to be picky, we just wanted green to be roughly green rather than roughly brown.

This came up with those huge D roll plotters trying to print the diagrams.

Of course it is not a valid argument to take a highly specialized field and generalize it to the general purpose computing. That's worse than trying to claim that Gentoo Linux is a good general purpose OS for the general consumer.

I have an iBook G4 and a recent MacBook, Matte screen and Glossy screen. For most of my purposes, I don't really care. Both alleviate my primary objection to CRTs, refresh rates. Neither gives me the glare issues some refer to. In fact, stepping outside, both are reasonably usable, though the glossy is slightly more usable if I am able to slightly shade the display. Sitting under a nearby tree, the Glossy is much more usable.

I'm not a professional graphics person. I'm closer to a general user, the kind that Apple is primarily aiming for. But all these claims that no one would like a glossy screen is just bogus. I've used both, in many cases, switching rapidly back and forth over a few hours, and often used both in conditions that people claim are horrible for glossy. I just don't have the problems described.

Re:Glossy only?

[backwardMechanic]

...I was distracted by my own reflection...

Mr. Physicist who works with neuroscientists here. Yes, I can confirm, neuroscientists are like that. I'd agree with the colour comments though (somebody go wiki gamut).

Re:Glossy only?

[garote]

Just out of curiosity, how would you feel working on a modern plasma HDTV? For example, this one? Assuming you slap a color calibration tool onto it and get a proper display profile, would you consider this good enough for your work? Or barring that, good enough to retouch a photo?

Re:Glossy only?

[nine-times]

You've already gotten some answers, but the truth is that a lot of different factors are converging:

• It's become a bit of a fad. Technology isn't immune to fashion, and fashions come in and out of style. There was a period when glossy screens were rare, and therefore some people thought they looked cool. Now everyone is moving towards glossy screens because that's where the demand is, and I wouldn't be surprised if, at some point, there was a move back toward matte.
• Apple has moved toward using glass in their designs, partially for structural/durability reasons, and glass is naturally glossy.
• Another advantage of glass is it's easier to care for and clean without damaging. Glossy things are generally easier to clean, but also with glass, if you do happen to damage it, there's a better chance you can polish it rather than replacing it.
• Because of how matte finishes refract/disperse the light, you can get more vivid colors with higher contrast, giving the appearance of a brighter/sharper image.

The last point is probably the trickiest to understand. If you want an easy-to-imagine analogy, think about trying to look at an image through clear glass vs. translucent frosted glass. It's not exactly right, but hey, it's just an analogy. When you have a matte finish, it scatters the ambient light, which is exactly what keeps it from being "glossy". You don't see a clear reflection of your desk lamp because the light from your desk lamp is being scattered in a bunch of different directions. The matte finish also causes the light from the display itself (the image being displayed) to scatter a bit, too. Because of this, glossy screens can get deeper blacks more vivid colors.

So really there are upsides and downsides.

Re:Glossy only?

[mieses]

you must be a shill. glossy screens stink. everyone knows this except for the people who sell them and who apparently have never found the need to concentrate on their displays for any amount of time. this was a horrible decision by apple.

Re:Glossy only?

[nine-times]

Just to add on: depending what you imagine with my frosted glass "analogy", it might not be an inexact analogy at all, but pretty much exactly literally what's happening. The matt finish does the same thing to light as frosted glass, but it's not heavily frosted and the display is directly behind it, effect on the image behind it isn't extreme.

Re:Glossy only?

[cayenne8]

"From what I've been reading on the liveblogs, these new notebooks are available in glossy screens only, even for the MBP. If that's the case, I think a lot of people will be pretty upset."

I'm seeing a few people on here bitch about this, and I'm not sure I understand what the beef is. I've looked at both the matte and the glossy, and IMHO, they are about the same, I might give the glossy an edge if I had to choose.

But, really, why is it that big a deal to some people?

Re:Glossy only?

[wfolta]

I'd love to figure out if this is simply in the eyes of the beholder, or if there's an environmental factor at work. I do video on a huge matte screen all day long, but when I get home and use my glossy MBP -- gotten when glossy was still just one option -- I notice no glare.

Right now, it's night and I have a ceiling-reflecting lamp on, and I have to twist all around to get the lamp reflection on the screen to notice any glare at all. During the day, I've used my laptop many places, including outdoors, and never had glare/reflections that literally distracted me.

Are glossy-haters working with huge windows directly behind them or something? Is it a matter of perhaps overall lighting and personal depth-of-field? Or concentration/focus patterns? It's puzzling how much of a love-hate thing glossy screens are.

(Now my big-screen TV is definitely glossy, as it is on a wall with windows on two other sides of the room. So you would definitely get some bad glare depending on where you sat.)

Re:Glossy only?

[nneonneo]

I have an HP dv6000 laptop with a nice big glossy screen, and three fluorescent bulbs (usually on, of course ;) ) about a metre from my head. Under the wrong angle, the glare is awful, but with most viewing angles, I find the shiny plastic frame has more "glare" than the screen. In fact, I think I even prefer this to my old matte-screen Powerbook G4, which I used for many years. The brightness is one thing, and the fact that it doesn't look muted is a plus for me. I've also used color calibration on the screen so it looks right under my normal viewing angle, so I personally think glossy screens are fine for most normal work (of course, there are always the professionals who demand specific equipment because of what they are accustomed to, and there's nothing wrong with that)

Re:Glossy only?

[cayenne8]

"Apple would be selling alot more laptops if their pricing was better. If they were closer in price to the pc laptops people might opt for them. Not everyone wants to drop a grand on a laptop. Sometimes a 500 dollar one will do just fine."

I guess for about the same reason that Porsche doesn't have a car that is in the $25K range, it simply is not the market they are aiming at.

There are plenty of computers/cars out there catering to the lower end market.

Re:Glossy only?

[kelnos]

I dunno... I have an old PowerBook with a matte screen (obviously) as my personal laptop, and a MacBook with a glossy screen for work. I like the glossy screen much better. The people I know with glossy screens also seem to like them (or at least don't dislike them). So: I see your useless anecdotal evidence and raise you... useless anecdotal evidence to the contrary.

Re:Glossy only?

[kelnos]

Yeah, I've noticed that too. If I change my focus greatly, I can see slight reflections of the overhead lights in my screen. But when I'm focusing normally on the contents of the screen, I don't notice the reflections at all.

Re:Glossy only?

[stwf]

I loved the glossy screen on my MacBook, but at work I recently got a new iMac and I hate it.
I guess its our lighting but the glare is right in the middle of the screen. Pointing it down is a very annoying solution.
Any recommendations on anti glare screens?

That steel wool trick doesn't really work odes it?

Re:Glossy only?

[arminw]

...If they were closer in price to the pc laptops people might opt for them. ...

So then all the cheapskates buy PC and those who want quality buy a Mac. There are those who are happy with a Yugo and then are those who want a Mercedes. Apple is selling plenty of computers at the prices they charge and BMW is selling a lot of cars also. If you can't afford a Mac, don't whine, get a cheap Dell and be happy.

Re:Glossy only?

[russellh]

you use a MBP for note taking? heheheheheh When I was in school we thought it was awesome to have a dumb terminal in our dorm rooms. I remember when the powerbook 100 came out. fuck yeah!

Re:Glossy only?

[Molochi]

Glossy screens are a pain in the ass if you wear a white shirt in a well lit area. You have to crank up the backlight to max to overcome your own reflection on the screen. This knocks off a good chunk of your battery life. Since Stevo only wears black turtlenecks he's probably unaware of this fact. Maybe it won't be as big an issue with LED based screens.

Re:Glossy only?

[Tojo-Mojo]

My matte Macbook Pro took a trip off of my couch armrest one night and the screen got busted. I decided to go with a glossy replacement screen. Honestly, I love the way it looks. I have no regrets (except for kicking it off the couch).

Re:Glossy only?

[Molochi]

Apple cuts the price on the high end, not the low end. While they rarely offer the best and most bad-assed hardware, their price on upper tier gear is usually fair to good. People that buy their "pro" lines get solid hardware that is well thought out. They're like Volvos, boxy but good. The only difference in the car analogy is Volvo drivers don't act like they're driving Aston Martins.

Re:Glossy only?

[dangitman]

a whole one, eh? no Mach, BSD or NeXT technologies were involved, is that what you're saying?

Nope, that's not what I'm saying. Those are components of the operating system. Just because Apple uses some code that was developed elsewhere, doesn't make their OS any less of a whole one. I mean, what modern OS doesn't use some of other people's code? Is Mac OS only half an OS, is that what you're saying?

In any case, Apple continues to develop and contribute back to those other projects.

anyway, i think the post's point was that Apple goes to great lengths to market things--some of which are novel and innovative, some of which aren't.

Great lengths? How do you define that? Seem to be they do a typical amount of advertising for a company their size. But the poster went beyond that saying Apple had ALWAYS done this. Which is utter BS. In the 90s, Apple hardly marketed at all. Mac fans were going nuts, because Apple had some great products, but they didn't seem to want to tell anybody about them. Seriously, Apple during the 90s, was one of the most under-marketed companies around. They seemed to eschew advertising, thinking that word of mouth from fans would be enough - or that they would always have the loyal graphic designer market.

Since Steve came back, they have picked up their marketing game, and about time, too. But I still see a lot more advertising for Dell - junk mail, print ads, etc. When you think about it, Dell is a much more heavily marketed company. Because that's all they really have. They don't do anything original - they just assemble cheap PCs and bundle Windows. So they are heavily dependent on marketing.

It's interesting how you don't hear people commenting much about Dell's marketing, even as they say Apple is all marketing. I think it's because Apple does "stylish" marketing, while Dell does "lowest common denominator" marketing. HP is somewhere in-between. Like Apple, they are a broader, more innovative company than Dell, and their latest campaigns have gone for "lifestyle".

Re:Glossy only?

[lanner]

Um, actually I work at a biotech/cancer research institute that does a lot of nerogenomics research and related stuff. We are about 50% Apple and 50% Windows on the desktop. Who do you think buys those $10K Macs? Visual designers and researchers. Granted, that's a different product segment, but we have lots and lots of MacBook Pros around too.

Re:Glossy only?

[MogNuts]

Except the Mac isn't a porsche. Not even close. Macs have always given u alot less for way too high a price. Take a look at the shitty specs for the mac mini and u tell me if it's worth $800-900.

Let me sell you this dodge neon for $150,000. I'll put a mercedes stick on it, so it's worth it!

You Fail.

Re:Glossy only?

[cayenne8]

"Except the Mac isn't a porsche. Not even close. Macs have always given u alot less for way too high a price. Take a look at the shitty specs for the mac mini and u tell me if it's worth $800-900."

Well, the mini 'was' Mac's foray into the lower end market, and not exactly a rousing success. Look at Porsche...in I think the 70's, they tried the 914 as the poor man's Porsche, didn't exactly work out.

I think the analogy still does hold out. The Mac product is a good one, good performance, and great styling and looks, interesting 'engine' in OSX...and comes with a premium price tag. The Porsche....good performance, great styling and looks, and interesting engine (boxter style, horizontally opposed). Can you get faster cars than Porsche's for the same money...sure. Do Porsches have some problems and are $$ to repair...sure. Yet...it is a Porsche, and people want them because of the name, and what they do bring to the game.

I'd dare say that Apple's products are in a similar vein.

I know after looking into the new Macbook Pro...I am getting one, loaded to the gills.

Re:Glossy only?

[Cobalt Jacket]

OLED will be the solution to this problem.

Re:Glossy only?

[mihalis]

The only difference in the car analogy is Volvo drivers don't act like they're driving Aston Martins.

They don't?

Re:Glossy only?

[ahoehn]

I'm Mr. Works At A Design And Photography Agency - and I have to disagree with you about the importance of proper color calibration.

When you're working with designs that are for the web, there's really no hope of getting those designs to display uniformly on everyone's monitor, so your best bet is to design them on a monitor that's similar to the most end-users. As the market moves to glossy LCD's, it makes sense to design on a glossy LCD monitor.

When you're working on a print piece, the real world provides a whole different set of issues that keep the finished print from automatically matching what you see on your screen, no matter how accurate your calibration. Your best hope is to either use Pantone colors when the client can afford the increased print cost - in which case you're matching colors to a Pantone book, not your monitor - or to have the printer match colors to a pre-existing printed piece the client likes.

It would be nice to live in an ideal world where you could always print with one printer, using one method that guaranteed accurate color matching - and where every web user viewed content that was calibrated perfectly to a universal standard. That world is far away. No one printer type or print shop is perfect for every print job, and there is always variation between different machines and shops. And the web is viewed on thousands or millions of different monitors, environments and calibrations. Until those conditions change, perfectly accurate color calibration is largely superfluous.

*Note: Because this is Slashdot, I should concede that there are some very specific applications where proper color rendering and calibration are very helpful or necessary. Such as a photographer who prints all his own prints on one single printer, a print shops, and, as the parent mentioned, for specific scientific and technical applications.

Re:Glossy only?

[Fred_A]

My matte Macbook Pro took a trip off of my couch armrest one night and the screen got busted. I decided to go with a glossy replacement screen. Honestly, I love the way it looks. I have no regrets (except for kicking it off the couch).

Well, it jst goes to show that there's no "one size fits all". I still believe you're in the minority though.

Re:Glossy only?

[badkarmadayaccount]

Difference - there is way more tech improvements and innovation in a Porche than an El Cheapo auto. Mac vs PC, nowadays? Uhhh, EFI? No, thanks, I like Open Firmware better.

No 3g?

[seanadams.com]

One thing I'm surprised they did not announce (yet?) is a 3g wireless interface. As a satisfied iPhone+Macbook user already, that would be the only thing that might be compelling enough to get me to upgrade sooner.

Re:No 3g?

[Anonymous Coward]

You have ExpressCard, use it.

Re:No 3g?

[seanadams.com]

You have ExpressCard, use it.

Yes, I'm well aware there are all kinds of clumsy bolt-on solutions with dongles hanging off the side or little protruding antennas. What was implied in my suggestion would be a fully integrated radio with no visible antenna, built-in software support, and an easy way to add the Macbook to my existing iPhone plan.

Re:No 3g?

[jonbryce]

But all the 3g modems I've seen are USB, except for one which is Wifi.

Re:No 3g?

[Dekortage]

But all the 3g modems I've seen are USB, except for one which is Wifi.

Maybe you should look harder.

No affiliation with them -- just a satisfied customer.

Re:No 3g?

[Jesus_666]

There are USB 3G adaptors? I always thought they only come in PCMCIA and ExpressCard.

Re:No 3g?

[x102output]

Jailbreak and then install PDANet. I use it all the time with my iPhone in my pocket and my MBP on my lap.

Re:No 3g?

[jonbryce]

As I'm from Britain, I looked at Three, T-Mobile, O2, Orange, and Vodafone.

The ones you link to are CDMA modems, which only work in US, Canada and one or two other countries. The rest of the world uses GSM based networks, and the modems for them are USB.

Re:No 3g?

[Dekortage]

You're right. My apologies for being US-centric.

How about this or this? Would they work for you?

Re:No 3g?

[petermgreen]

There are USB 3G adaptors?
Yep and at least here in the uk they are what all the major networks that offer 3G are pushing for users who want to use the internet on thier laptops while on the move.

Personally if it's not fully integrated I think I would preffer a phone that allows connection using bluetooth to a dongle sticking out of my laptop.

Boring

[MarkoNo5]

I really don't care if my macbook pro is made of a single block of aluminium or not. I do however care about non-glossy screens, and not having to lug around a connector for a mini display port. Both of these, however, seem to be a thing of the past. In addition, I think the black border around the screen is ugly as hell.

Re:Boring

[Cobalt Jacket]

I believe the intention is that, in time, everyone will use DisplayPort and it will be moot. Certainly, Apple is not the first manufacturer to head in this direction. The transition has to start somewhere.

Re:Boring

[MBGMorden]

I hope you're not suggesting that having the ability to connect an external LCD monitor to a LAPTOP negates his complaint on the glossy screen? There's no way I'd be willing to drop that much money on a laptop and THEN have to pack and log around an extra monitor for it.

Re:Boring

[Nightspirit]

The black bezel around the screen is far superior for watching movies or video fullscreen. Black is much less distracting than lighter colors, and with TV sets you will often see TVs with black cases being priced $100-200 more than the exact same TV with a white or gray case.

Re:Boring

[ceoyoyo]

They did much the same thing with DVI/ADC. You used to have to lug around a DVI to VGA connector to hook your notebook up to an external display. I still do, because there are a lot of older data projectors around, but most new stuff and every monitor I've seen has a DVI connector on it.

Re:Boring

[TeknoHog]

A standard DisplayPort would be great. I hate it when laptops are still coming with ugly analog VGA ports, probably due to the bigger size of DVI. But you'll still need an adapter to get a real DisplayPort out of their proprietary mini version.

Re:Boring

[petermgreen]

Apples approach to display connectors seems to be to change them at the drop of a hat. Worse thier adaptors to DVI are afaict digital only so a lot of people will need two apple propietry adaptors for one laptop.

Re:But all glossy...

[Anonymous Coward]

The Mini DisplayPort is downsized from the full sized DVI connector. The Mini DisplayPort can drive everything the big DVI can (30-inch displays).

13" MP

[truthsearch]

The new metal 13" macbook is very similar to the pro, just smaller. For a $700 price difference this new model is probably worth it if you don't mind it being a little smaller.

Re:13" MP

[Anonymous Coward]

Unless you need Firewire, in which case you're up a creek sans paddle. Typical Apple, a couple steps forward, one step back, one step to the side. Never end up exactly where you want to be.

Re:13" MP

[tulmad]

And with a slower CPU (2.0ghz vs 2.4ghz on the lower model), no secondary GPU 9600M GT, and no expresscard slot.

Re:13" MP

[Kelson]

This might be my next notebook.

I've got a 12" PowerBook, which at the time was the bottom of the high-end range. One of the things that bothered me about the Intel switch is that Apple shifted the line between low-end (MacBook) and high-end (PowerBook/MacBook Pro) upward, so you can't get a MacBook Pro any smaller than 15" or cheaper than $2000. I want something that will fit in a backpack and cost less than two grand, but I hate, hate the plastic keyboards on the current MacBook line.

So if they've redesigned the MacBooks with a new keyboard, I'm all for it. I'll just have to get down to a store once these are in stock and see how I like typing on them.

Re:13" MP

[TheBig1]

Mod parent up! I thought it was a troll until I looked on the Apple tech specs page myself - no mention of firewire, either 400 or 800! What in the world was Apple thinking?!?! Most external drives are firewire (if they have USB too, the firewire performance is still far better). I won't be getting this one any time soon!

Cheers

Re:13" MP

[Sancho]

Most external drives are firewire (if they have USB too, the firewire performance is still far better).

Really? In my experience, most new external drives are either USB-only or USB+FW(maybe +eSATA).

Re:13" MP

[alohatiger]

But can you boot off a USB drive?

Re:13" MP

[myz24]

DDR3 and a faster FSB IIRC, the store is down again.

Re:13" MP

[Sancho]

Most modern computers can, yes, but that's somewhat irrelevant.

Re:13" MP

[TheBig1]

Well, all that I have ever purchased are firewire. Granted, I may not be a good representation of the average consumer, either, so your point may stand. I do, however, stand by my assertion that firewire gives better performance than USB for otherwise identical drives.

Cheers

Re:13" MP

[SaDan]

All new consumer camcorders using SDHC typically do not have FireWire ports either.

Re:13" MP

[lowlymarine]

Um...yes. My ThinkPad, both of my desktops, my Inspiron 9300, and even my 4-year-old Gateway 7422GX all have BIOS options to boot from USB hard drives. I even had Solaris installed on my USB external HD for a while, so I know it works at least on my Dell.

Do Macs really not have a boot-from-USB option?

Re:13" MP

[Sancho]

firewire gives better performance than USB for otherwise identical drives.

No doubt. Firewire gets very close to its advertised speeds for sustained throughput. USB advertised speeds are peak throughput, not sustained--they do very poorly when trying to pass a lot of data across that bus.

I browsed over to bestbuy.com to look at their drive offerings. They have 68 drives which are USB-only, and 23 drives which have Firewire connections (and all of those also had USB--combined with a smattering of other multi-BUS drives, there are 97 drives supporting USB.)

All things being equal, I'd prefer the higher throughput of Firewire, however I also have to consider versatility. Every computer I have to touch has a USB port. Only a couple of them have Firewire.

Re:13" MP

[diqmay]

I'm in a simmilar boat (12" PB 867 MHz G4), but I came to slightly different conclusion.

Have you looked at the prices on the previous MacBook Pro models?

The $2499 model (15" / 512 MB GeForce 8600 / 250 GB HD / 2.5 GHz C2D) was cut to $1499 on Apple's clearance page.

Compare that to the current $1599 MacBook which has the NVIDIA 9400M and a slower processor, and you may reach the same conclusion.

Of course, if you're looking for a similarly sized computer to your 12" G4, then it's not a great solution.

Re:13" MP

[S'harien]

References please? Because I can't find any. I can find this: http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?messageID=6021206&tstart=0 And I'm curious how you would cable it, you'd certainly need a nonstandard USB cable with two upstream connectors.

Re:13" MP

[mrdoogee]

I was excited about this too until I heard this. If this is true then Apple just pulled the MB out of the Education and Enterprise market. When you have 30+ Macs to image and need it done yesterday Firewire is the only way to go. I hope this is an oversight and there is a firewire 400 at least.

Re:13" MP

[ObiWanKenblowme]

The numbers say Firewire is better, but for my anecdotal $.02, a USB 2.0 external drive does just fine. I've got a 500BG drive holding my iTunes library connected by hi-speed USB2, and moving files over to it seems pretty snappy to me. Granted, I'm not using it for video production, but for the average household use I'd assume USB is acceptable.

Re:13" MP

[Sancho]

No doubt, USB is "good enough." So was VHS and HDDVD, and any number of other technologies that lost the marketing game.

Firewire is nice when you're doing backups, though eSATA sort of obviates it if you're going to have to buy an add-on card, anyway. If you're just streaming media files or transporting small amounts of data, USB will certainly do just fine.

Re:13" MP

[rizzo320]

References please? Because I can't find any. I can find this: http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?messageID=6021206&tstart=0 And I'm curious how you would cable it, you'd certainly need a nonstandard USB cable with two upstream connectors.

I'm more than willing to admit when I'm wrong, and I believe this is one of those cases. I went back over some notes/documentation I had, and I was confusing the ability to boot off an USB drive (which hasn't always been there either and was a concern with the MacBook Air) with target disk mode. You would hope that this handy feature is something that Apple includes in the future over USB, since many of their documentation pages talk about it. It would also be interesting to see if the "Target Disk Mode" button is still there in the Startup Disk System Preference pane.

Re:13" MP

[old and new again]

but not many soundcards are FW800 and USB2 still sucks for realtime audio work compared to firewire(FW being parallel opposed to serial protocol really helps with multi audo channels) and i have yet to see a dv cam with usb2(or final cut even recognising a usb device )

Re:13" MP

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

Firewire target mode is really cute for disk imaging purposes; but having done plenty of mass imaging on the PC side, I can tell you that pulling images over the network isn't bad at all, with appropriate software. Because target mode is so handy, I don't know what the current state of network imaging software on the mac is; but the problem has already been solved into the ground. With GbE you might not even notice much of a loss of speed.

Re:13" MP

[shutdown -p now]

All three of my (cheap Chinese) external HDD enclosures are USB + eSATA.

Re:13" MP

[viridari]

Yes but almost every camcorder out there still uses firewire for video transfer (there is a USB port on many, also, but it is only used for transferring still photos).

Re:13" MP

[petermgreen]

It doesn't look to me like the keyboard has changed significantly. It still seems to be plastic keys sticking up through a grid in the case.

Re:Uneven coverage?

[Cochonou]

You need to get over the fact that Apple, just like Linux, or Google will get a special treatment on Slashdot. These are products/brands that the typical slashdot reader are interested in. You will see that this "article", even if it is nothing more than a glorified press release, will get a large number of comments, justifying its place on the slashdot frontpage.

$999 laptop only 1gb of ram? at least it is ddr2

[Joe The Dragon]

$999 laptop only 1gb of ram? at least it is ddr2 and gma video?

The new systems.

$150 to go from 2gb to 4gb of ddr3

Mini DisplayPort to DVI Adapter $29

Mini DisplayPort to Dual-Link DVI Adapter $99

Mini DisplayPort to VGA Adapter $29

Usage

[almost_lunchtime]

A lot of money and technology, and most of these will just be used to run iTunes and a browser...

guess how many mouse buttons it has

[Anonymous Coward]

0.

no mouse buttons. what a joke.

Re:guess how many mouse buttons it has

[LostCauz]

The glass trackpad *is* the buttons, and not like tapping to do a click.

It works in a similar way to the ipod wheel, the corners move down when you press it. Watch the video on the macbook page. I was afraid of that too, but it really is quite nice.

Re:guess how many mouse buttons it has

[diqmay]

Watching the expose on the Apple website, this looks like an interesting update, but the thing I didn't see was an example of "drag and drop". Anyone seen any mention of this?

Re:guess how many mouse buttons it has

[mrdoogee]

Well it looks like if I get a new mac, my trusty old Kensington USB mouse will continue its duty. Why apple cant make a 3 button mouse with 3 OBVIOUS buttons is beyond me.

Re:guess how many mouse buttons it has

[chord.wav]

I'm cool with the no mouse buttons -Well, they really made a big button with a trackpad on top of it- but drag and droppers will suffer this. Dragging and dropping using just the trackpad is a mayor pain.

Re:guess how many mouse buttons it has

[shutdown -p now]

But, isn't drag & drop a cornerstone of OS X user interface design?

Re:guess how many mouse buttons it has

[chord.wav]

Thinking a bit more about it, I have realized that it's multitouch, so you should have the option of holding them clicked with the thumb and drag them with your index just as you would using a trackpad with buttons.

Re:guess how many mouse buttons it has

[Tombstone-f]

We just got one at work, you can click with your thumb and drag with your pointer it works just like it did with a button. You can also click and drag with just your pointer but you can't move it as far.
I wasn't sure how I would like these but I can see that if I had one, after getting used to the clickpad, I would get very frustrated with using a laptop with normal buttons.

Re:guess how many mouse buttons it has

[badkarmadayaccount]

Double tap-n-hold. Works well. Tap twice, like a double click, but dont release second time, really nifty.

Lighted keyboard

[Fastfwd]

I was hoping for it and it is finally there but just on the 2.4ghz version. IF I had to buy a laptop today that would be it. Or a cheaper MB air.

glass touchpad?

[kisrael]

is a glass touchpad that much better?
I ahve an iphone but the only plus I see is that i can see an LCD through it...

Re:glass touchpad?

[E IS mC(Square)]

I ahve an iphone...

It figures...

Re:glass touchpad?

[kisrael]

Heh, cute.
Actually that's the kind of typo iPhone is good at catching! I'd be more likely to "heave an iPhone" than "ahve an iphone", I was just in a hurry.

The other thing I don't get it is, do the "brick Macs" look that much different from the outside?

Dual Video Cards?

[0100010001010011]

Is anyone's interest peaked by the new dual video cards? Especially with OpenCL possibly being the 'next big thing'. I'd be very interested in Photoshop CS4 benchmarks too.

Second, is this the next big competitive 'edge' (now that everything is dual core). Apple was one of the first companies to put dual processors in consumer products. I remember debating between a Dual 800 MHz or a Single 866 when I went to college and ended up spending the extra on the dual. I swore to myself then that I'd never go back to a single processor. Now everything is dual core, dual processor, quad core, etc.

Re:Dual Video Cards?

[0100010001010011]

Airport was one of the first Consumer 802.11b solutions. Apple provided both the Base Station (router) and their wireless card.
Gigabit ethernet still isn't on most computers you buy from anywhere else.
iSight built in, don't all the new Dells have this?

Even if no one cares about Apple shit or shiny new over priced products. Expect somethings you've heard today to trickle down into every other brand.

Re:Dual Video Cards?

[Hieronymus Howard]

And they're one of the last companies to put quad core into consumer products. In fact, they still don't have a quad core consumer product.

I'm waiting for a quad core iMac to replace my old G5. I think that I still have a few months wait yet.

Re:Dual Video Cards?

[merreborn]

I've read that the dual GPUs are a power saving feature. The weaker GPU runs boring desktop stuff, and the stronger GPU takes over for heavy lifting -- 3D games, etc.

Makes sense. High-end GPUs are power hogs. I suppose, ideally, NVidia would start adding power saving modes to them, but until then, we have this hybrid situation.

I also read that some Sony Vaio models has had a similar feature for a while.

Re:Dual Video Cards?

[erple2]

Gigabit ethernet still isn't on most computers you buy from anywhere else.
iSight built in, don't all the new Dells have this?

That's not entirely a fair statement - you could also make the case that Apple doesn't sell a sub 1000 dollar notebook, too..

More or less all non-Apple notebooks that have a starting cost of 1000 have gigabit ethernet built in...

Re:Dual Video Cards?

[petermgreen]

Gigabit ethernet still isn't on most computers you buy from anywhere else.
I just took a quick look at the first model from each of dell UKs ranges

laptops

inspiron: no gigabit
studio: gigabit
xps: no gigabit
alienware: gigabit
xps gaming: no gigabit
vostro: no gigabit
lattiude: gigabit
precision mobile: doesn't seem to say but i'd be very surprised if it didn't have gigabit

and the desktops
inspiron: no gigabit
studio: no gigabit
xps: gigabit
alienware: dual gigabit!
xps gaming: gigabit
vostro: no gigabit
optiplex: gigabit
precision: gigabit

so it seems there is little ryme or reason to which dells have it but I certainly wouldn't say that most don't. This actually surprised me because other than my brothers EEE every new PC i've seen recently had gigabit onboard.

Re:Dual Video Cards?

[mako1138]

Dual graphics GPUs are not an Apple innovation. This is something that is being pushed by Nvidia and AMD - a discrete GPU that can be turned on or off as needed.

Re:Dual Video Cards?

[recoiledsnake]

Sony has had LED backlit laptops and dual graphic cards that you can switch with a button(intel integrated + nvidia discrete) for much more than a year(I'm typing on one right now). Apple is more about hype for ill informed people than anything else.

Re:Dual Video Cards?

[nutshell42]

The difference is that the Macbook requires you to logout for the switch. Sony doesn't. That's a pretty big inconvenience because you can't just turn it on during a session if you just wanna check something that needs some heavy graphics.

It doesn't need a reboot so it's (most likely) a software issue (stop the presses, Vista better than OSX at something) and we can hope that Apple will ignore the problem for a few weeks then deny that there is one and finally patch it just after Christmas.

Re:Dual Video Cards?

[StrahdVZ]

With NVidia's recent performance, perhaps the second chip is merely a backup that will kick in if the first one fails... :P

Re:Dual Video Cards?

[Molochi]

I'm actually a little confused by what is being offered on the 15"MBP. They say it's a 9400+9600 SLI combo, but the 9400m is supposed to be a 9100 integrated chip combined with a discrete 9200 or 9300 card in a hybrid sli setup. I'm thinking it'll just use the 9200/9300 card and the 9600 card in hybrid SLI (since both should have dedicated RAM) but saying 9400+9600 would mean they are including the chipset GPU in SLI as well. Sounds like more trouble than it's worth.

Re:Dual Video Cards?

[shutdown -p now]

Gigabit ethernet still isn't on most computers you buy from anywhere else.

Erm, where do you buy yours? I haven't seen a PC desktop or laptop without gigabit Ethernet for a few years now.

Re:Dual Video Cards?

[stereotree]

I remember debating between a single core 33mhz Powerbook 190 or a single core 33mhz Powerbook 190cs when I went to college and then realized I was too poor for either.

No firewire on the MacBook (non-Pro)

[sjonke]

See the tech specs: http://www.apple.com/macbook/specs.html

Re:No firewire on the MacBook (non-Pro)

[daveywest]

I'm wondering about the rational behind that decision. After all, isn't the ability to use iMovie to make your own home movies a big selling point for the consumer level Macs?

Without a firewire interface, iMovie (and by extension iDVD) seems like it would be useless.

Re:No firewire on the MacBook (non-Pro)

[SengirV]

I know, it's an insanely bad idea.

Re:No firewire on the MacBook (non-Pro)

[Tibor the Hun]

Not only that, but without FireWire mode, you can't boot as the target firewire drive.
This comes in handy in many troubleshooting instances.

Now the only way to do user migration wizard would be via the ethernet. Not very useful if your macbook won't boot in the first place.
I guess they're relying on TimeMachine to be the primary rescue method of the future.

I can't complain about that, I guess, I've successfully used it on a few occasions.

Re:No firewire on the MacBook (non-Pro)

[ibmjones]

Why was modded insightful? At this point, most consumer camcorders do not have firewire interfaces. Most consumer external hard drives do not have firewire ports.

I'm surprised that it took this long to drop FW in the Macbook.

Re:No firewire on the MacBook (non-Pro)

[barzok]

At this point, most consumer camcorders do not have firewire interfaces.

Plenty still do, and the only way to get video from your MiniDV camcorder to your Mac is via FireWire.

I said it elsewhere, I'll say it here - don't tell me I have to spend hundreds of dollars more just so I can send video of my kids to their grandparents.

Re:No firewire on the MacBook (non-Pro)

[Chaos Incarnate]

Unless it can boot into USB target disk mode like the MacBook Air can. The bigger problem would be using another Mac as a target disk.

Re:No firewire on the MacBook (non-Pro)

[phuul]

I would have agreed with you a month ago, but not now. I think there is a big transition going on where more people will be taking video with the Flip and Kodak Zi6 which have USB interfaces. Yes older, standard and in many cases higher quality cameras do have Firewire. But with these new point and shoot video cameras I think the average person isn't going to care about Firewire.

Re:No firewire on the MacBook (non-Pro)

[rizzo320]

I've always been a fan of firewire, but I think its in danger of being relegated to a "specialty" connector. Yes most of the MiniDV cameras are firewire, however, the majority of the new DVD, hard drive, and flash based cameras, they are all USB 2.0. Just browsing Best Buy.com only 9 out of 60-70 camcorders offered were MiniDV, and only a few of the non-MiniDV based cameras offered firewire.

I think Apple figures that if you want firewire for video editing, that you'll either: stick with your existing hardware, go with a MacBook Pro or desktop model, or end up upgrading your video camera altogether. In addition, the recent trends with video have people doing more and more with shooting low quality video with their point and shoots and uploading to a video site. Less and less videotaping, downloading to computer, edit, burn to DVD is being done these days. The newest iMovie illustrates this as well. "Quick and dirty" is how a lot of video is done these days.

It also doesn't help that most of the PC industry, except Sony (aka iLink) has shunned firewire, and you very rarely see it as an option on any new desktop or laptop.

Re:No firewire on the MacBook (non-Pro)

[King_TJ]

I think DV camcorders using firewire are on their way out. True, I have an old Sony TRV-730 that needs a firewire connection... but one big reason iMovie got a major re-write last year was to support the new video formats all these camcorders use that have internal hard drive or flash memory storage.

Every one of those I've seen is connecting up via USB, not firewire.

Re:No firewire on the MacBook (non-Pro)

[barzok]

It also doesn't help that most of the PC industry, except Sony (aka iLink) has shunned firewire, and you very rarely see it as an option on any new desktop or laptop.

My Lenovo R60 has it (FW800). We have no need for it in my company, so I'm assuming it was a standard feature. The POS eMachines laptop I got for my wife 4 years ago has FW800 too.

Unfortunately, I seem to be in a "lost" demographic. I'm not doing pro video, but I'd like to be able to take some movies of my kid, have them come out looking decent, and send them out to my parents. I don't want YouTube quality, I want good TV quality. Without having to throw out my investment in existing equipment.

Fortunately, I got my MacBook a year ago, so I'll have FW available to me for quite a while yet.

Re:No firewire on the MacBook (non-Pro)

[grouchomarxist]

iMovie (and iDVD) can use video from various sources not just firewire. That was a limitation of older versions.

I also think firewire isn't as common on video devices as it used to be.

Re:No firewire on the MacBook (non-Pro)

[S'harien]

The Air does not have USB target disk mode. You're confusing it with Remote Disc. You can verify this by either (a) holding down "T" at startup (which it will ignore), or (2) going to the Startup Disk prefpane and seeing that the option to restart in TDM is gone.

Re:No firewire on the MacBook (non-Pro)

[ProfessionalCookie]

Everything consumer is going to SDHC with USB mass storage for transfer. Especially anything AVCHD.

I'll miss Firewire but only because I can't plug my audio interface into usb.

Re:No firewire on the MacBook (non-Pro)

[indytx]

I'm wondering about the rational behind that decision. After all, isn't the ability to use iMovie to make your own home movies a big selling point for the consumer level Macs?

Without a firewire interface, iMovie (and by extension iDVD) seems like it would be useless.

Depends. I bought a Hard Drive DV camera over the summer from BestBuy, and almost all of the cameras were USB 2.0 only. If I remember from shopping for DV cameras, you had to spend over $1,000 to get a HD DV camera with firewire.

Re:No firewire on the MacBook (non-Pro)

[dangitman]

Huh? Maybe newer cameras are starting to drop firewire, but the vast majority of cameras that consumers already own do have firewire. And most consumer hard drives might not have firewire, but those that do, perform a lot better than their USB cousins.

Just because you don't see the benefit, doesn't mean that many users don't get a lot out of having firewire. Particularly in the Mac world, where firewire is very common.

Re:No firewire on the MacBook (non-Pro)

[Fahrvergnuugen]

Most consumer video cameras now record to some type of disk instead of tape. Not having tape means that you no longer have to capture video at 29.997 frames per second, thus eliminating the need for the better performing (but more expensive) FireWire port. And so the cameras now have USB2 and no FireWire.

Re:No firewire on the MacBook (non-Pro)

[itsdapead]

Without a firewire interface, iMovie (and by extension iDVD) seems like it would be useless.

Well, as others have pointed out, newer camcorders have USB and/or record onto DVD or memory card. Apple have always been fairly ruthless about dropping technologies that the PC world would hang on to for another 5-10 years (are PS/2 ports dead yet?)

The slight fly in that ointment is whether the slot-loading DVD can take an 8cm mini-DVD...

Re:No firewire on the MacBook (non-Pro)

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

For whatever reason, PC laptops, even the gigantic, firebreathing desktop replacement ones, seem to be allergic to 6-pin firewire ports. On the other hand, even fairly cheap and awful PC laptops often have 4-pin firewire. Only the really ghastly bottom-of-the-range ones, or ones designed more or less exclusively to bulk out corporate dronebox supplies seem to lack them.

I suspect, in this case, that this is more about Apple separating the Pro from the non Pro, they've done some pretty spiteful things over the years to enforce this distinction(anybody remember having to use a hack to get proper dual monitor, rather than just clone, on older ibooks?). Cutting firewire from the macbook saves a few bucks; but also means that Joe and Jane film-school will have to suck it up and get a Pro.

Re:No firewire on the MacBook (non-Pro)

[Kyusaku Natsume]

It wouldn't be so bad if at least they had included a eSATA port. I love my Iomega dual bay HD case; it is perfect when working in iMovie in my iMac 24" conneccted by FW800, but now even the most cheap HD cases have eSATA ports. With the limited internal space of iMacs and laptops, this would be the perfect feature por the iMac line and Apple laptops, if they are dropping Firewire.

Re:No firewire on the MacBook (non-Pro)

[RMH101]

2 points:

1) Record compressed video to optical disk, then rip it from DVD to MB, and edit the compressed video vs import and edit uncompressed and compress on render - if you've ever tried editing compressed video it's very processor intensive and obviously lossy.

2) Can't think of any DVD-recording camcorder that doesn't use 8cm mini DVDs. Stick one of those in your Mac slotloader and you'll be looking at a mother of a job fixing it.

Re:No firewire on the MacBook (non-Pro)

[Fahrvergnuugen]

DVCPRO is also compressed, but its a working format. And the cameras I'm talking about are not recording to DVD, they're recording to mini hard drives or SSDs.

is there some kind of film you can apply?

[Reality Master 201]

Or something? Not optimal, I know (and if you're forking out that kind of money, it's kind of wrong to have to resort to it), but is there anything you can put on a glossy screen to eliminate the glossiness?

I hate glossy screens on laptops - they look like shit and are impossible to use for long periods of time. I think I read that these are glass screens(?), so maybe it'll be less annoying than the plastic ones.

Re:is there some kind of film you can apply?

[Richard_at_work]

The problem with these screens is not what they are made of, or whether they are gloss or matt, its their resolution. Not one of Apples laptops had a bump in screen resolution with these announcements, the 15.4" Pros *still* suffer with 1440x900 when most people are looking for 1600x1050 minimum these days. I won't be buying another Apple laptop until the screen resolutions get a decent bump, thats for sure.

Re:is there some kind of film you can apply?

[Reality Master 201]

Well, what I meant was that all the glossy screens I've seen have been plastic coated. Since the plastic isn't rigid, the surface is slightly uneven and there's odd reflections all over. I'd still prefer the matte screen (or a decent anti-glare coating, like on CRTs), but maybe the glass would make the reflections a bit less distracting.

As for resolution, I guess it depends on what you're using it for. 1440x900 is fine for my use.

Re:is there some kind of film you can apply?

[Trashman]

Or something? Not optimal, I know (and if you're forking out that kind of money, it's kind of wrong to have to resort to it), but is there anything you can put on a glossy screen to eliminate the glossiness?

I hate glossy screens on laptops - they look like shit and are impossible to use for long periods of time. I think I read that these are glass screens(?), so maybe it'll be less annoying than the plastic ones.

Here's a better idea. Why don't you buy a Matte screen appropriate for your purposes, and be done with it.

Why are you so willing spend time and money to modify this thing when you could just buy one that meets it? Does your work require apple HW?

Re:is there some kind of film you can apply?

[Reality Master 201]

Cause I prefer using a Mac? I like OS X. I'm a perfectly capable *nix user, so I like having it available to me, in addition to a nice simple GUI.

Re:is there some kind of film you can apply?

[Richard_at_work]

1440x900 is fine for a lot of what I do, but when I'm shelling out £1,400 on a laptop, I want something with a better resolution - I can get better resolution screens on Dells a 1/4 of that price (I know I know, no contest...).

Re:is there some kind of film you can apply?

[Trashman]

Your comment (and my reply) were specifically in reference to the screen. That was your gripe? Right? Why are you bringing up that you prefer OS X?

My point, is that it's pointless to complain about the screen when you can buy and connect whatever screen you want.

Re:is there some kind of film you can apply?

[Ambitwistor]

Preferring OS X is relevant because if you want to buy a laptop with OS X, you're now stuck with a glossy screen.

You can't buy and connect any screen you want without serious modifications to the laptop. Adding an external display is not the point; it's a portable computer.

Re:is there some kind of film you can apply?

[kabz]

Cut out a laptop screen sized area of matte/frosted shower curtain and epoxy it to your laptop.

Problem solved.

Re:is there some kind of film you can apply?

[oblivionboy]

Well it was going to come up *somewhere* in the thread, so he was just being preemptive about it.

Re:is there some kind of film you can apply?

[Reality Master 201]

OSX runs on Macs and for practical reasons I use a laptop for nearly everything, and move around with it quite a bit. I don't have the time or energy to fuck with a hackintosh laptop, so if I want to run OSX, I need to buy Apple hardware.

Yes, I am aware that I could connect an external monitor. That does me very little good most of the time.

Re:is there some kind of film you can apply?

[E IS mC(Square)]

If you love OS X so much, then why the fuck you are complaining about lack of options in hardware? That's what you pay when you sell your soul to lock-ins.

Re:is there some kind of film you can apply?

[Ambitwistor]

I'm not complaining about anything. Go talk to the original poster.

Re:is there some kind of film you can apply?

[Reality Master 201]

Because if I and people like me don't make our feelings known, then Apple has no incentive to do anything about it?

And, FWIW, there wasn't really any soul selling. I just like the Mac, and OS X is an excellent OS that's pleasant to use. I realize that's hard for the anti-Apple zealots to grasp.

Re:is there some kind of film you can apply?

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

If you love OS X so much, then why the fuck you are complaining about lack of options in hardware? That's what you pay when you sell your soul to lock-ins.

If you're not using what you want to use in the first place, you're not magically in a better place. Not being able to do what you want is not being able to do what you want, regardless of whether or not you call it 'lock-in'.

Re:$999 laptop only 1gb of ram? at least it is ddr

[i'm lost]

You're looking at the price of RAM from the Apple store, right? It's a ripoff, buy it from somewhere else and put it in yourself. Most Apple-fanboy forums will even give this advice, and it's easy enough that non-technical people don't have problems following the directions to upgrade their own RAM.

Re:Want!

[bb5ch39t]

I am also a Linux user. I got a Mac MINI last year just to see. I rarely power it up any more. Being an old fart, I don't much care for laptops. Bad eyes and arthritic hands just don't seem to go with laptops.

Re:But all glossy...

[Anonymous Coward]

The Mini DisplayPort is downsized from the full sized DVI connector. The Mini DisplayPort can drive everything the big DVI can (30-inch displays).

...if you buy the $30 adapter for it.

Re:$999 laptop only 1gb of ram? at least it is ddr

[Joe The Dragon]

just listing also they dropped fire wire from the mac books.

Fingers

[lilo_booter]

And the entire trackpad is the button. It gives you more area on the trackpad and keeps you from hunting for that button. You can get multi-button support from software. And we've added some new four-finger gestures that are really nice.

I have a nice 2 finger gesture in response to that.

Re:Fingers

[lilo_booter]

Troll? Really?

OK - was trying for funny (obviously failing :-)), but the point is a genuine one - I really can't stand the trackpad - the first thing I do is look for ways to turn off the 'click' behaviour. Being forced to use it is a deal breaker for me.

(For the record, I have four mac machines in the house which are in fairly regular use by various members of my family - that includes the mac book pro I'm typing this message on).

Re:Fingers

[vijayiyer]

The new trackpad actually clicks. Not tap to click, but presses down like a button.

ugh

[SuperBanana]

Failtastic in so many ways:

• Despite all this we're-environmental crap, it's worse off, because it requires enormous amounts of electricity to make the larger quantity of aluminum, it requires more electricity to machine it, and the vast majority of material is milled right off. The scrap needs to be heated up and melted down AGAIN to "recycle" it. Since they're made in China, the electricity for that is coming directly from coal.
• Still ExpressCard/34, which is useless for many things, particularly CompactFlash readers used by pro photographers.
• Huge black border around the screen, which is wasted space.
• #$@$!ing annoying square, flat keys from the Macbook, and they're black. Am I the only one who thinks it looks incredibly ugly?
• Glossy screen only. To which Phil said, "You offset the reflection by the brightness, and consumers love it. One of the great things about a notebook is you can turn it however you want!" No, douchebag, we HATE the glossy screen, and you've still got to SIT SOMEWHERE with it, and turning up the brightness requires more battery power. Apparently Phil has never tried using one of the glossy screens with something bright behind him. There's a reason almost every TV and computer monitor on the planet has a matte screen.
• Yet another video adapter. We've got a BIN full of these things for when people need to use a projector. Here's another one, for absolutely no particular good reason.
• Security slot in FRONT of the side-mounted DVD drive. Great. So if you want to lock your laptop up, you've got this big cable blocking the drive, and if you eject a CD, it'll eject into the cable. And probably break the drive. Why couldn't it go in the corner?

Re:ugh

[Microlith]

No, douchebag, we HATE the glossy screen,

To be sure, -you- hate the glossy screen. However, if Dell/HP/Toshiba et. al. are any indication, the market as a whole prefers the glossy screens.

So Apple makes laptops with glossy screens. Good luck finding new laptops without them from ANY maker.

Re:ugh

[slaker]

My completely serious answer to almost all of your complaints is that you should look at Lenovo's Thinkpad offerings. Matte screens, awesome keyboards, standard VGA output, full size expresscard slots (depending on the model). Plus they're built like tanks and they don't get red-hot on the bottom like Macbook Pros seem to.

Of course, they're made in China as well, so the environmental factor is still an issue, but they do run OSX tolerably well if you absolutely have to have it.

Re:ugh

[MightyYar]

because it requires enormous amounts of electricity

Blame groups like Greenpeace, who shamed Apple into doing stuff exactly like this.

Agreed on most of your other points, too.

Re:ugh

[SanityInAnarchy]

Despite all this we're-environmental crap, it's worse off, because it requires enormous amounts of electricity to make the larger quantity of aluminum

Better, in that electricity at least can be clean. Plastic really can't.

#$@$!ing annoying square, flat keys from the Macbook, and they're black. Am I the only one who thinks it looks incredibly ugly?

Ugly? Maybe, but I love the way those keys work. I'm the exception, though.

almost every TV and computer monitor on the planet has a matte screen

Well, no, not anymore.

Yet another video adapter. We've got a BIN full of these things for when people need to use a projector. Here's another one, for absolutely no particular good reason.

Didn't they already use this one in the Air?

Re:ugh

[SuperBanana]

Didn't they already use this one in the Air?

Nope, the Air used yet another adapter. The new Air is unified with the MBP. I wouldn't complain at this "simplification", if it wasn't for the fact that MBPs outnumber Airs at least 10:1.

Re:ugh

[Cobalt Jacket]

You refer to "standard VGA output" like it's a good thing.

Re:ugh

[myz24]

Of course they prefer it, it's the only option they have!

Re:ugh

[slaker]

Unlike DVI, it's present on every projector I've ever gotten to use,.

Re:ugh

[demonbug]

standard VGA output

Aargh. Shortly after getting a new Dell notebook a couple months ago I thought it would be really cool to be able to connect it to my HDTV. Thinking nobody would be idiotic enough to stick an analog VGA output on a nice, new laptop, especially considering the abundance of cheap DVI to VGA adapters, I went and bought a DVI to HDMI cable without actually checking the computer (my TV has several HDMI inputs, but no DVI unfortunately).
Nope, turns out they did go and put a regular VGA output on it. Pretty fricking stupid. Put a damn DVI output on the thing, every piece of electronics I have seems to come with a DVI to VGA adapter (and who uses standard VGA anymore anyway?), I just tossed out three of them the other day and I just found two more in a drawer. Sometimes it seems like computer manufacturers are purposefully obtuse.

The array of different video connections on Macs does crack me up, though - it got to the point that in grad school every projector had four or five different mac-only adapters attached to it. The one person I knew who had a standard DVI output on his laptop was out of luck, though. Apple really knows how to drive accessory sales.

Re:ugh

[manekineko2]

What did Greenpeace do to cause Apple to machine the MBP out of a single piece of aluminum as opposed to joining multiple smaller pieces?

Re:ugh

[MightyYar]

I don't think they are hogging it out of a billet of aluminum. If I were making such a beast it would be a trimmed casting or stamping.

In any case, melting down aluminum isn't the energy hog - it's separating it from ore in the first place. That is why recycling aluminum cans is such a big energy saver.

Re:ugh

[E IS mC(Square)]

Because it is useful today in a lot more cases than what Apple is offering?

Re:ugh

[slaker]

DVI connectors take up a bunch of real estate on the back of a notebook for presumably very little benefit above and beyond what standard VGA offers, given that every computer monitor and projector under the sun has a VGA connector on it, while maybe 1/2 the monitors made in the last five years or so have DVI.

VGA is still the default video connection.

Re:ugh

[repetty]

> Failtastic in so many ways

Apple is doomed! Doomed, I say. No one will use these things!

Mark my word: with the introduction of these ridiculous computers, Apple will be out of business by May of 2009.

What's really going to happen is that in another year Apple will have billions of dollars more than they have now and no one will care about your carefully crafted points. Sorry.

Re:ugh

[petermgreen]

Afaict one of the the main (if not the main) functions of the display port on laptops is connect to projectors in confrence rooms and similar locations. Afaict theese systems are still nearly always VGA (I suspect this is partly because moving DVI long distances can get expensive and partly because most laptops have VGA ports not DVI ports).

Add that to the fact that DVI is a lot bulkier than VGA and it is understandable why laptop manufacturers stick with VGA.

Also a lot of bottom end flat panels still seem to be VGA only whereas monitors with DVI but not VGA seem to be pretty rare.

Re:ugh

[vijayiyer]

They are milling it out of billet:
http://www.apple.com/macbook/the-new-macbook/watch.html

Re:ugh

[MightyYar]

I'm a bit flabbergasted. Machining is expensive - though it is aluminum so it's not THAT bad. At least you won't chew through tools. You could get precision with a casting/machining process so I don't know what their motivation is - maybe strength? Some alloy that they can't cast properly? Maybe they want to make frequent changes and so don't want to buy the tooling? Weird.

Re:ugh

[badkarmadayaccount]

A trillion flies can't be wrong - eat shit. I so love that sig, whose is it, anyway?

Re:ugh

[RedBear]

Failtastic in so many ways:

• Still ExpressCard/34, which is useless for many things, particularly CompactFlash readers used by pro photographers.
• Huge black border around the screen, which is wasted space.
• Yet another video adapter. We've got a BIN full of these things for when people need to use a projector. Here's another one, for absolutely no particular good reason.
• Security slot in FRONT of the side-mounted DVD drive. Great. So if you want to lock your laptop up, you've got this big cable blocking the drive, and if you eject a CD, it'll eject into the cable. And probably break the drive. Why couldn't it go in the corner?

1. There are ExpressCard/34 readers for CompactFlash, and FireWire 400/800 CompactFlash readers which work great. But yes, it is annoying that they can't seem to manage to fit an ExpressCard/54 slot in the same space.

2. There's always a bezel around an LCD screen. Looks to me to be the same width as the previous MacBook.

3. I too was annoyed to find out about the new video adapter. However there are apparently good reasons to switch. It's an open standard that has backing from multiple manufacturers, so it's not nearly as stupid as the old proprietary ADC connection that made a couple of generations of perfectly good Apple monitors useless without a $150 power adapter. What makes this more annoying than it should be is the fact that even with the MacBook Pro the video adapters are ALL optional additional expenses.

4. Don't you think maybe they thought of that and designed the case specifically so that someone couldn't just walk up to your locked computer and eject whatever is in your optical drive and walk off with it? I doubt very much that it will break the drive, it will just stop and go back inside. I wouldn't be surprised if there were a switch inside that would keep the drive from even attempting to eject the disk if the lock is installed. They also designed the bottom of the case so that you can't open the battery/HDD door and walk off with the hard drive or battery when the lock slot is in use. Pretty damn thoughtful of them to find a way to protect all the removable parts of your computer in one shot.

Your other points are good. As far as glossy screens goes, I thought I would hate them too, but after a year of working on a glossy MacBook I've never even noticed it, whereas I once had an office that was much too brightly lit from a sunny window and could barely see anything on my matte desktop LCD for half the day every day. I'm sure for those who really can't stand the glossy display there will be some cheap matte screen overlays on the market soon.

Or you could just spray the screen with a light coating of matte clear-coat like the kind used to seal inkjet prints. I'd recommend Krylon UV Resistant Clear Acrylic, it's non-yellowing and water- and smudge-resistant. Satin finish would probably turn out quite nice. Since the screen is covered by a glass plate now like the current iMacs, I believe this would actually be a feasible idea and wouldn't harm the computer at all.

I find the new designs absolutely beautiful myself. The only thing I've been disappointed about is the lack of FireWire in the MacBook. This is the first Mac besides the toy MacBook Air that lacks FireWire. It boggles my mind how a decision like that ever got off the starting block, no less made it into production. There are a lot of really angry people in the forums right now talking about that, I think more so than the lack of matte screen options.

Tilt. Tilt. Tilt. Tilt.

[argent]

OK, my next OS X Notebook is probably going to be a Thinkpad.

I'll Pay Apple what they want for OS X, I'll buy a Mac Mini and not use it if that's what it takes to make my idiot conscience shut the **** up, but I've had it with Apple's passive-aggressive relationship with multi-button mice.

Re:Tilt. Tilt. Tilt. Tilt.

[iMacGuy]

It has a multitouch trackpad, so it has infinite buttons!

Re:Tilt. Tilt. Tilt. Tilt.

[argent]

The current trackpad already supports multiple finger taps, and it so doesn't cut it for me. Tap-to-click-in-the-wrong-place is already not working for me, on any laptop, but at least I haven't been forced to use it.

Re:Tilt. Tilt. Tilt. Tilt.

[jeremyp]

Funnily enough Apple have thought of that. When you tap the trackpad to produce a click, the mouse pointer doesn't move. So, no, there s no "tap to click in the wrong place".

Re:Tilt. Tilt. Tilt. Tilt.

[argent]

My fingers are defective then, because I had this problem on my MBP until I got a third party program that let me use corner taps instead. It's still not perfect, but it works better for me... and a lot cheaper than replacing my fingers.

Re:Tilt. Tilt. Tilt. Tilt.

[confu2000]

Enable two-finger secondary click. Put two fingers on the track pad and click the physical button. It will register as a secondary click. No need to tap anything.

Re:Tilt. Tilt. Tilt. Tilt.

[argent]

I suppose if I was half my age or had kept up my videogame chops I would be able to reliably put two fingers on the trackpad without, often enough to be frustrating, jiggling the pointer enough that I am no longer in the right place for my right click to do what I needed it to.

Re:Tilt. Tilt. Tilt. Tilt.

[argent]

More to the ****ing point, the purpose of a computer is to do what I want, not make me do what it wants. If I have to retrain every time someone at Apple gets a bright idea about some new user interface feature, then I might as well just switch to Windows Vista NT 7 Ultra Perfectimundo Consumerism Edition. Except that so far the suck level in Windows has been enough to make me put up wit the suck level in Apple hardware.

"Apple: We don't suck as bad, mostly" just doesn't have the ring of "The computer for the rest of us".

Re:Tilt. Tilt. Tilt. Tilt.

[vijayiyer]

The new trackpads actually click. As in the whole trackpad moves down like a button. It's not tap to click.

Re: Balony

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm probably in better shape but then I use Lunix exclusively, none of that evil DRM stuff to clog my arteries.

While you're probably right it's not for the same reasons you think.

You're probably in better shape because it takes 20 times more work to do anything with Linux than it does with Mac or Windows. It keeps you on your toes.

Re:$999 laptop only 1gb of ram? at least it is ddr

[Atti K.]

...

put it in yourself.

...

I'm just wondering if a RAM/HD upgrade will be as easily doable on these made-of-a-single-piece-of-sh^H^Haluminium MacBooks as on the old ones...

Re:Uneven coverage?

[manekineko2]

And don't forget about the fact that besides the announcement at the conference today, we also got a Monday article and a Friday article on rumors on what would be announced at the conference, both on the front page.

No mention of 17" notebook on site.

[PortHaven]

Did they drop the 17"? not update it? or just not mention it....

Apple site currently crawling and serving up server errors. So I can't see if it's listed as a new product.

Re:No mention of 17" notebook on site.

[TB42]

It took a while, but I finally got through to the "Buy" link. It looks like the 17" has not been upgraded (yet?). Bummer.

Re:No mention of 17" notebook on site.

[chaim79]

Checked the press conference, the 17"s will get a spec refresh but will not go to the new look/design.

Re:No mention of 17" notebook on site.

[rizzo320]

I have a feeling that they will be updated at some point. In addition, I think they are leaving these the same to satisfy the "pros" who want matte finishes on their laptops- I'm pretty sure that option is still there for the 17".

Re:No mention of 17" notebook on site.

[dakameleon]

Did they drop the 17"? not update it? or just not mention it...

From http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20081014-apple-gives-entire-macbook-lineup-a-serious-makeover.html :

The 17" MacBook Pro is "still around," according CEO Steve Jobs, and is being "refreshed."

Re:The $1600 system should of had 128-256 of vram

[SaDan]

Exactly what I was thinking. Dedicated VRAM is a must, especially if the new video chipsets are supposed to be worth anything. What a joke.

Zero updates to their iMac and MacPro lines.

Oooo... The MacBook is now ONLY $999! I'll be interested in Mac laptops when their entry is around $599.

Will the mini move to the new nvidia chipset?

[Joe The Dragon]

As it is still over 1 year old with THE SAME PRICE!

And it should have 128-256 of vram + 2-4gb of desktop ram with a 3.5 hd.

Re:Will the mini move to the new nvidia chipset?

[argent]

No, Apple's plan for the desktop is apparently to abandon it as unprofitable-enough. :(

Re:Will the mini move to the new nvidia chipset?

[myz24]

That was the first thing I went looking for in the store. No updates, in a year, same price and now two graphics generations behind. They're either going to announce something amazing at Mac World or axe it all together.

Re:Will the mini move to the new nvidia chipset?

[mrdoogee]

The word on the street is that the Mini is going to mate with the Apple TV and have Media center offspring that nobody will buy.

Re:Uneven coverage?

[multisync]

Are we going to start seeing frontpage articles here on slashdot when all the other notebook manufacturers come out with new models?

Start? As the saying goes, you must be new here. I'm sure at least some of these made fp:

http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/04/16/1246240&from=rss

http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/05/30/1540203

http://mobile.slashdot.org/mobile/08/08/19/1222226.shtml

http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/04/16/1246240&from=rss

http://mobile.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/09/04/1953225&from=rss

http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/02/21/2036240&from=rss

http://mobile.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/08/12/0518244&from=rss

So, in answer to your question, nothing will change. We will continue to get whatever stories happen to be in the geek press posted to the front page (sometimes more than once!), and people with axes to grind will continue to whine that Slashdot is either giving too much attention to the target of their derision, or not enough to their platform of choice.

OSX only Runs on Macs

[bill_mcgonigle]

A: Steve: We're going all glass -- we won't offer another version.

I'm going all-Linux then. Thanks for the ride.

Re:OSX only Runs on Macs

[gunnk]

Ubuntu looks GREAT on my glossy HP screen. :-)

gestures

[Anonymous Coward]

Ok, so first it was 1 finger, then 2, then 3, and now finally 4. What's next, fisting?

(Yes, I know I am a terrible person, why do you ask?)

Re:gestures

[greed]

Well, at least they finally shut up the people complaining about "only one mouse button."

Now there's ZERO! Hahahhaahahaa!

Is the new case going to be more durable?

[jasonbowen]

I have a MacBook Pro that is less than a year old. It took a 3 foot drop on to padded carpet and the bottom case corner by the optical drive got bent. The machine works fine, just no use of the optical drive for me now since the fragile case bent. The drive itself works, it is just that every disk inserted and ejected gets a scratch on it now. Apple wants $610 to replace the bottom case pan. I think I'll be looking back to a non-Apple laptop running Linux the next time I'm in the market for a laptop. $2000 laptops shouldn't have such fragile cases. I've dropped many a laptop in my day and never had a case get bent.

Re:Is the new case going to be more durable?

[Finallyjoined!!!]

it is just that every disk inserted and ejected gets a scratch on it now

Go to your local hardware store, buy a Riffler file (or a diamond file if they don't have a Riffler) and work on the bent bit of casing until it doesn't obstruct. Job jobbed :-)

1. Buy file
2. Remove obstruction
3. Don't spend $610
4. ...
5. Profit

Re:Is the new case going to be more durable?

[mdarksbane]

It's a problem with any metal case. You pay for the lightness, looks, and, yes, durability over plastic.

A plastic case will snap and break, a metal one will bend a dent.

Re:Is the new case going to be more durable?

[Kjella]

Anything breaks with bad luck. I have a Thinkpad for work, supposedly one of the most ultra-sturdy laptops outside of special "rugged" laptops. Well it took one drop from the office desk to the office carpet floor and the corner with the media card slot was broken. Just taped the corner since I don't use that anyway and being without my laptop would cost everyone more hassle anyway, but no it's not just Apples.

Re:Is the new case going to be more durable?

[jasonbowen]

I'm thinking of buying a Speck case protector and it may actually help keep the protruding frame in place while also protecting the soft as butter frame. Seriously, I thought this case was a little more durable that it has turned out to be.

Re:Is the new case going to be more durable?

[jasonbowen]

I ran over my wifes old G3 iBook on my bike, and I ain't a small guy. The fact that it still worked with only a scuffed corner and a tire mark was a testament to Apple and made me consider buying one for the first time. If a laptop can't take a 3 foot drop, it isn't fit for everyday use. I've abused laptops before, this is just the most fragile, while being the most expensive at the same time.

Re:Is the new case going to be more durable?

[jasonbowen]

I would expect a plastic case to possibly show damage, especially considering that your office carpet is probably not like my home carpet. I have two other dents that I couldn't tell you where they came from because it hasn't been dropped any other time. The case is simply not durable.

Re:Is the new case going to be more durable?

[MobyDisk]

Almost no other laptop would have survived such a drop. There are a few industrial-ish laptops like the Toughbooks. Otherwise, you are lucky your hard drive works and your LCD didn't crack. Be thankful.

I have a MBP that survived a heft fall in my cushioned backpack. Slightly dented. I can't imagine any plastic case would have survived it. Not to mention the fact that the MBP is very light for its size.

Re:Is the new case going to be more durable?

[johneee]

Speaking as someone who ran over and dragged his D series lattitude down the street and is still using it 5 years later, I completely agree.

Re:Is the new case going to be more durable?

[Anonymous Coward]

I dropped my T60p Thinkpad 3 feet on an icy day onto a steel manhole cover. The case was slightly chipped. Now granted, you did say "Almost no other laptop..."

Re:Is the new case going to be more durable?

[necro81]

I have a MacBook Pro that is less than a year old. It took a 3 foot drop on to padded carpet and the bottom case corner by the optical drive got bent.

This happened to me with a 12" Powerbook G4 a number of years ago. Rather than accept that I couldn't use the optical drive, or get a replacement case, or get my discs scratched up, I just bent the corner back until the case was flat again.

Re:Is the new case going to be more durable?

[Chaos Incarnate]

"A little more durable"? If you're wanting a laptop that can survive three-foot drops unscathed, you should be looking for a Toughbook or its ilk.

Re:Is the new case going to be more durable?

[jasonbowen]

Well obviously not everyone will read every post so I am doing so repeating. As it is, I need to stop posting before IT notices all my Slashdot traffic.

Re:Is the new case going to be more durable?

[jasonbowen]

Scenario... Coming to a stop on the bike, about to learn my backup was not zipped up. Swinging backpack forward over shoulder as I applied the break, slow speed 5-10 mph. 14" iBook comes flying out of backpack, from over 5 feet in the air with forward momentum. 14" iBook hits concrete, on a corner, even have photographic evidence of it if you really need it. I plow over iBook. I dust off iBook and note huge road rash gouges on corner and tire track across top. Assume I just bought a new iBook for my wife. Open it up and it powers on and never had a problem. the old cheaper iBook was much more durable.

Re:Is the new case going to be more durable?

[fermion]

I do find the new mackbook pros to be much less durable. While my powerbooks got scratched and such, my Macbook already has a dent in it. Never happened with powerbooks, at least without a fall.

Re:Is the new case going to be more durable?

[mdarksbane]

I've dropped my Titanium powerbook 3ft several times and have a couple dents and nicks that don't hurt anything.

Standard rules about anecdotes versus data apply.

Re:Is the new case going to be more durable?

[mgblst]

Make sure you post this a few more times.

When did we start guaranteeing laptops from drops. Listen people, there are something that you can't drop, laptops are one of them. I have never dropped my laptop, I guess I am not that stupid.

Re:Is the new case going to be more durable?

[jasonbowen]

Guaranteeing from a drop wasn't brought up, perhaps somebody so smug should learn to read? It is my belief that the product should be engineered to take a fall that can happen in everyday life. I'm not saying that Apple pays out because I drop a laptop, I'm saying that a laptop should be able to take a waist height drop because there is a fairly decent chance it could take one in its lifetime. I haven't said Apple should cover this under warranty, I'm saying they should make a sturdier product.

Re:Is the new case going to be more durable?

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

The main distinction is that iBooks are plastic. If you overstress it, it'll crack; but the odds of getting a permanent dent are basically zero. Aluminum is much more resistant to cracking; but much easier to deform.

Re:Is the new case going to be more durable?

[Anonymous Coward]

I dont know if you're a troll or an idiot, but you dont run over a laptop with a bike, or throw it off a table and then blame the manufacturer if it breaks. it's not their fault you're an irresponsible clutz

Re:Is the new case going to be more durable?

[Jorophose]

I once dropped my T40p thinkpad on a sidewalk when I was in Africa. Yeah, that rift is from MY thinkpad. And you know what? I didn't even get a scratch on it!

Re:Is the new case going to be more durable?

[iminplaya]

Well, it will conduct the heat from inside very nicely. Oughta keep your lap warm in the wintertime. I don't like metal. I tend to get an electrical shock when the AC is connected in countries with funny electricity(Mexico?). No computing while barefoot with one of these.

Re:Is the new case going to be more durable?

[mgblst]

Sure, and you could drop it a 1000 times more, and not have the same problem. Me, when I drop something, I take responsibility for it, don't start slagging of the brand for my mistake.

And it seems Apple has answered your prayers, the new macbooks and pros are sturdier.

Re:Is the new case going to be more durable?

[jasonbowen]

I didn't blame Apple for the fall of the laptop. It was actually knocked off a table in the middle of the night by a cat and it was closed and turned off. I'm taking Apple to task for engineering such an easily damaged product. Why do you think they have motion sensors in the hard drive? For falls perhaps? The drive fell due to gravity and wasn't thrown. It is normal use to expect a product to survive an unaided fall, i.e. one that is due to gravity and not something like a purposeful forceful throw.

Re:Uneven coverage?

[4D6963]

Because, at least Apple goes at great lengths to hype their new products. You won't report on the latest Lenovo notebook because their press release would be incredibly flat. Steve Jobs just knows how to make the most mundane upgrades sound exciting and newsworthy.

Style over function in announcements

[justinlindh]

The thing that bothers me is that the metallic body announcement is somehow the big headline on most of the news sites, while the announcements of trackpad changes and specs seem to take a backseat. It really emphasizes that Apple wants to appeal to style possibly even more than function.

I'm sure that angle works, as it's now "hip" to own Apple products, but it concerns me that we may start seeing more flash than substance in Apple product lines, which would be a big disappointment since they've been known to be innovators in functionality in the past.

Re:Style over function in announcements

[ProfessionalCookie]

Well, metallic would be style. Metal is function.

Re:Style over function in announcements

[Frag-A-Muffin]

I think you've missed the point then.

The new metallic body has all sorts of "function" in it. It's lighter AND stronger at the same time. I don't know about you, but have you ever picked up a cheap plastic dell? Next time you do, hold it from the two ends and give it a twist. It'll scare you. Now try that with the old Macbook Air (the first laptop to use this unibody design).

Doesn't twist does it?!

I'm more than willing to pay a little extra for that "style" (or "function" to some people .. like me!)

That's just 1 example. Was MagSafe just stylish too? Ask my brother-in-law and his wife how many times that magsafe saved their laptops with their two kids running around the house.

It's quite obvious to me, and I'm surprised by the inability of slashdot'ers today to "think" about it. Apple now uses commodity hardware. You can get the same crap in a Dell right? So how on earth would they differentiate themselves by just playing the specs game? They can't. And it doesn't maker any sense to. There are umpteen companies that already do. What they do is innovate AROUND those standard parts when they construct a consumer device.

Hence, you get things like MagSafe and Glass trackpad (which I'm super excited about, because if it's anything like my iPhone, I'm gonna love it) and now the unibody!

If another person compares a Dell to this, I'm gonna puke. Seriously, until you find a Dell with the above features, please don't bother. If you're too cheap to pay for the extra features, then great, just say so, don't try to convince me that your $200 cheaper Dell is the same, cuz trust me, in a day to day usage test, it'll fail more epically (is that even a word?) than you can imagine.

P.S. Have you ever seen the design of the Apple power brick with the interchange prongs/cord? If you haven't. That alone is worth the price difference. Why other laptop manufactures can't make a better power brick is beyond me.

Re:Style over function in announcements

[justinlindh]

Good points.

I have a 2 year old Macbook (non Pro), and I have had zero problems with the plastic clam shell case (does not twist as per your example). I also think it's aesthetically pleasing enough as-is, but that's opinion.

I'll agree that lighter is better, so I'll agree that the change is functional and style. I still consider the track pad changes to be more significant, though, and would expect to see it as a headlining change over a metal case.

Re:Style over function in announcements

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

Err... Apple have always made a big deal about design.

Re:Style over function in announcements

[ceoyoyo]

Build quality is functional. The news is that the new enclosure is lighter and thinner, but stronger, and has fewer pieces.

Take a look at products other than computers. Say, digital cameras. Build quality is very important, and a major selling and discussion point, particularly when you get above the point and shoots.

Re:Style over function in announcements

[Dr. Spork]

Yup, I've thought about it and you're exactly right. Apple really do seem to be making the best laptops these days. (I'm writing this on my desktop while taking a break from diagnosing the incessant blue-screening of my Thinkpad. Maybe I'm ready to upgrade.)

Re:Style over function in announcements

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

I fully agree that cheap, awful dells that flex when you look at them suck. That said, whether the casing is aluminum or plastic doesn't have much to do with whether the machine flexes or not. ibooks and macbooks have plastic cases, and they don't flex appreciably(and they don't dent horribly, unlike the aluminum, which is nice). On the PC side, I know from experience that Thinkpads don't flex at all; because they are built around a magnesium alloy frame. The casing has little to do with it. Cheap dells flex because they are cheap, not because they are plastic.

Re:Style over function in announcements

[Frag-A-Muffin]

I think you slightly missed my point too :)

But only slightly. :) (Unlike the OP)

You're basically stating exactly what I'm saying. That yes, there are some other laptops that do compare in terms of quality, and in this case, some of the Lenovos. (Lenovo/IBM Thinkpads still rank right near the top in my list of recommended laptops. At least the T and X series :)) However, you're now right up there in price with the Macbooks (and Macbook Pros)!

So to reiterate my point: I'm sick of people comparing cheap Dells with Macbooks based purely on specs. Specs don't really mean anything to me now. It hasn't changed much in a while (tech. time, so like the last year). A few hundred Mhz. Big deal. Most people won't notice the difference. So what Apple's innovating on is everything around those specs. And this is where most people trip up. It's here that you pay that "Apple Tax". Call me elitist, but I'm happy to pay that "tax" if it means I get a much better quality laptop!

I'm sure you can find a Kia or a Hyundai with similar specs to my Lexus is250. But try to argue with me that it's the same but for less. I'm sure you'll have a hard time. It's the same thing here.

While I'm at it. I might as well tell you my opinions on WHY Apple only competes in this "higher" end market. (I have it in quotes, cuz I don't really think it's higher end, just a few more features that don't translate to bigger numbers on paper, except for price! :)) One word. Margins. What do you think the margins are on a cheap $400 laptop? Not much. How many do you think you need to sell to be profitable? How much competition is down there? Lots. So they're basically creating their own niche where they're continually competing with themselves by coming out with these new features that no one else has. They continually put out products that are compelling. By all means, these new products aren't revolutionary like some of the rumour mongers like to post. But luckily I try not to read those too much, which keeps me grounded when it comes time for these Apple launch events. What happens is that I'm thoroughly satisfied with their offerings. What did I get today? I'm getting a Macbook that is now LED backlit, 0.5 lb lighter and much thinner than the previous macbooks thanks to the new unibody design. On top of that, I'm now getting a dedicated graphics chip. YAY! No more integrated Intel crap! All for about the same price they were selling before. That's a win win for me in my books.

So to all you cheap ass Dell fans. I say, go on, continue to buy your dells. Just please stop saying it's the same thing. It's not.

(For the record, I don't think ALL Apple's inventions are awesome. Case in point. The mighty mouse. Ewww. I gave mine away immediately.)

Re:Style over function in announcements

[banzairun]

P.S. Have you ever seen the design of the Apple power brick with the interchange prongs/cord? If you haven't. That alone is worth the price difference. Why other laptop manufactures can't make a better power brick is beyond me.

They do this so you have to buy the adapters from Apple. It's a good design, but for a less than benevolent reason. It's just as easy to carry a travel adapter that you can use on other items, you'll need one anyway.

I've had a hard time going more than 18 months or so without an apple adapter failing in one way or another since the G3 days (they were better in the late 90's, actually). In 15 years of use I've never had issues with IBM notebook adapters, ever..

YMMV, but function can occasionally trump form.

17-inch MBP still with 8600M

[roskakori]

From the Q&A:

10:57AM Q: What's up with the 17-inch?
A: Tim: It's being refreshed today as well.

According to the Apple Store, it already has a "New" flag, but the graphics card still is the old 8600M instead of the new 9600M.

Re:17-inch MBP still with 8600M

[CrackedButter]

That reply from Tim Cook is bullshit, he knew really what the question meant but decided to not really answer it.

media

[Reality Master 201]

A lot of people use their laptops as portable media players - watching movies on the couch, looking at pictures, etc. Glossy screens give the impression of better colors for that kind of use, so they're increasingly used in laptops in the consumer market.

I'm kinda disappointed to read about this, frankly. I'd at least like the option to not have one, cause they're fucking terrible.

Re:media

[falcon5768]

thats the only thing i can think of too, I much prefer my 1st Gen pro's matte screen over the glossy one and always recommended that over glossy for either Mac or Dell to my fellow staff-members.

Re:media

[Henneshoe]

Go ahead and buy a glossy screen. On the way home stop by the grocery store and pick up some steel wool. Rub the screen with the steel wool and Voila!! A beautiful matte screen.

Note: your results may vary.

Re:media

[paanta]

Yeah, especially since steel is softer than glass. D'oh!

Re:media

[Shatrat]

Yeah, especially since steel is softer than glass. D'oh!

Since when?
Glass is about a 5.5 on the Mohs scale.
Steel ranges from 5.5 to 7 depending on the alloy.

Re:media

[Henneshoe]

Steel wool will scratch glass. If you don't believe me try it. Heck, if I was you I would buy a macbook, try it, and post the results on youtube. Please forward me the link.

Re:media

[Onan]

I thought that glossy screens were an absolutely awful idea when I first heard of them. But after seeing and using them for a while, I now find them to be a far better choice.

Remember, the difference between matte and glossy is now how much glare the screen reflects, just how sharply focused that glare is. With a glossy screen, if you're sitting at the wrong angle, you get a big bright unusable glare. But if you adjust that angle even very slightly, the glare goes away _completely_.

A matte screen, on the other hand, is the hedging approach. There's no single point at which the glare is really awful... and there's no point at which the glare goes away entirely. You're just averaging the glare over all possible angles.

Given how painless it is to nudge a laptop one way or the other by a couple of degrees, I'm now much happier with the option to have no glare whatsoever, rather than just constant not-too-terrible glare. It's a little weird actually seeing true black on a laptop screen in a lit room, but I assure you that it's refreshing.

Re:media

[hobbit]

Ya beauty!

Re:media

[Yvan256]

And my reply is about 9.2 on the Meh scale.

Re:media

[macshit]

I find that I tend to prefer the reflections on glossy screens. In a non-dark environment, there's usually dimly visible reflection of something, no matter how you nudge it, but after a while I just stop noticing them. My brain seems much better at this sort of mental "filtering out" when the reflections are coherent images, whereas the indistinct glare and reduced contrast from a matte screen never really seem to go away.

Another difference seems to be that anti-reflection coatings work much better with glossy screens (are they even possible with matte screens?).

Re:media

[Midnight Thunder]

Go ahead and buy a glossy screen. On the way home stop by the grocery store and pick up some steel wool. Rub the screen with the steel wool and Voila!! A beautiful matte screen.

I know you are joking, but I wonder whether you could get a matt stick-on screen protector to reduce the reflectiveness?

Re:media

[Molochi]

Lol. But seriously just buy a matt "screen protector". I'm sure there will be one or twelve different brands of them custom cut for the new macs for sale within a week.

Re:media

[drmerope]

Glossy screens give the impression of better colors for that kind of use, so they're increasingly used in laptops in the consumer market.

This is misleading. Glossy screens DO have better color saturation and CAN offer better color gamut as a result. They also have better contrast.

A matte anti-reflection coating works by diffusing the light so that point sources, backlight bleed, other pixels all reflect from the surface everywhere--the result is a loss of contrast. Many graphics arts people will tell you glossy "sux". They are just parroting what they learned in vague terms: "don't buy glossy" No further explanation.

Most people I know who don't like glossy, disliked it after learning that it wasn't 'professional'. Well here is a secret: glossy is bad for press work because CYMK ink processes cannot achieve the same color saturation as the screen. So if you have 24b or 18b or whatever color, you distribute your dynamic range over a color-space that isn't usable in print. Which means: 1) you can more easily pick impossible colors (if you don't rigorously use gamut checks) and 2) the colorimetric distance between any two colors on your display is further (more gamut) therefore less fine distinction.

#2 matters if you're trying to say match skin tone. #2 also matters if you try to color calibrate the screen. The closer together your color-steps are the easier it is calibrate (lots of precision), but a glossy screen has bigger steps between colors (covers more color space) and thus cheapo calibration equipment and software fails to converge. This especially true if the LCD panel (not the coating) is cheap 6b/channel.

Last, glossy is really bad for windows. In windows, everything is assumed to be sRGB color-space (wrong) unless you are in photoshop. Your screen has more gamut, more saturation, but windows does not do color-space translation on its own. Ergo: all your colors are slightly wrong in every program but photoshop (or equivalent). On MacOS, color-space translation is available in many more programs thanks to the OS

.

Re:media

[RodgerDodger]

Depends on the glass - you can make glass very scratch resistant if you want.

The glass on the iPhone and iPod Touch that I own hasn't scratched yet, but the back of the Touch (which I've had about a year longer than the iPhone) is scratched like crazy. Jobs said that they went with toughened glass for the iPhone precisely because it was harder than most items people carry in their pockets (esp. keys & coins)

Normal window glass is about 5.5 - but it can get harder.

Re:media

[RMH101]

I've had a 17" 1920x1200 MBP for a year. I ummed and aahed over the matte/glossy - but the glossy is *much* nicer. As the previous posted said, a slight twist of the angle removes the glare, and it looks so much *richer* that I can't imagine buying matte again unless I worked in a goldfish bowl.

Re:media

[lowerison]

This is the funniest thing I have read all day. (Yep lame day so far.)

Re:media

[ptudor]

i begrudgingly bought a macbook the other day...after having an iBook and then 12" PowerBook with matte screens and thinking I could never go glossy. But you give it a new perspective that I hope to be the case when the delivery man brings my new portable.

Argh...

[PortHaven]

Well there went my hope that they'd finally offer us two-buttons.

*sighs*

There is nothing I hate more than having to use a trackpad as a click-button. You try to move the cursor and open up half a dozen links accidentally.

I nearly sent back my Dell until we found drivers that let me turn that feature off. :(

Steve...YOUR A TWIT!!!

Re:Argh...

[goodmanj]

There is nothing I hate more than having to use a trackpad as a click-button. You try to move the cursor and open up half a dozen links accidentally.

You misunderstand. This isn't the crappy "I barely brushed my finger over it and it thought I clicked" tap-to-click crap. The whole trackpad is a physical button, like the top of a mouse. You push it down firmly and it goes "click". You brush your finger over the top and it's a drag. If Apple has done their job properly, you won't accidentally click it any more than you accidentally click your desktop mouse while sliding it around on the table.

I haven't used one, but it has the potential to be beeautiful.

Well there went my hope that they'd finally offer us two-buttons.

Apple's current desktop mouse doesn't actually have two buttons, it has pressure-sensitive areas on the top and the whole top surface depresses. But it can tell which finger applied the pressure, and tell the difference between a left and a right click.

I'm only speculating here, but the same basic principle could be used with the new Macbook trackpads to give left and right clicks. Dunno if they actually did that.

Re:Argh...

[Free the Cowards]

But it can tell which finger applied the pressure, and tell the difference between a left and a right click.

No it can't. It can tell which fingers are touching it. But it cannot tell the difference between pressing with your right finger or your left finger if both fingers are in contact. To perform a right click with the Mighty Mouse you have to lift up with your left finger and click with the right.

This, in a word, sucks.

Hopefully the MacBook trackpads are better. Sounds like they are. But the Mighty Mouse is just utterly horrible.

Re:Argh...

[paanta]

Doesn't the whole trackpad physically depress like a button, rather than like a traditional tap-to-click trackpad? That way there's a nice haptic feedback, a la the new blackberry storm.

Re:Argh...

[myz24]

No offense but it sounds like you're the twit. I haven't never heard of anybody dragging their finger across a touchpad and having the system think you were clicking things...

Re:Argh...

[PotatoFarmer]

Fortunately, they've also included an accelerometer into these new models, such that you can pick them up and tilt them around to move the mouse cursor where you want it. Clicking is easy, too - just drop the laptop.

Double-clicking is a bit harder, but with a mallet and a bit of practice you'll have it down.

Re:Argh...

[MidKnight]

... To perform a right click with the Mighty Mouse you have to lift up with your left finger and click with the right.

This, in a word, sucks.

Have you used one for more than a minute or two? You'd be surprised how quickly you adapt to it; it's just another muscle-memory thing. When I'm using a more traditional two-button mouse, I find it quaint that it has actual physical buttons, and that the scroll button/wheel is only two directional.

Hopefully the MacBook trackpads are better. Sounds like they are.

I'll bet the physical feel is pretty damn good. I'm still amazed at how well multi-touch works on an iPhone screen, and I'm guessing the glass mouse will be very similar.

Re:Argh...

[Gulthek]

No it can't. It can tell which fingers are touching it. But it cannot tell the difference between pressing with your right finger or your left finger if both fingers are in contact. To perform a right click with the Mighty Mouse you have to lift up with your left finger and click with the right.

I didn't believe you so I grabbed my mighty mouse and right clicked: worked fine, no issue. Then I realized that my left finger was slightly lifted. I actually had to concentrate to keep my left finger down while I right clicked to see the issue you are complaining about.

Re:Argh...

[SaDan]

Yeah, I used a mighty mouse for a month when I started a new job that only has Mac workstations.

I now have generic USB two-button mouse w/wheel that works.

It's another form over function problem with Apple peripherals.

Re:Argh...

[DonM]

The Apple Mighty Mouse is the best mouse I've ever used (and I've used an awful lot of mice).

The need to lift the "other" finger is real, but I honestly don't even notice it.

Re:Argh...

[Wovel]

Just because Dell can not build a clickable trackpad that works properly, does not mean it can not be done...

Re:Argh...

[Neoprofin]

Can you link me to these?

I've looked before and only been told "no you can't disable the touchpad, then how would you click?" and if I close a window or click one more like while scrolling across a page I'm going to scream.

Re:Argh...

[PortHaven]

Heck, my mighty mouse doesn't even register if I do that. Zero right-click ability. Must be an older model.

Re:Argh...

[ploiku]

the whole trackpad is a physical button, it's not a software thing.

Re:Argh...

[overunderunderdone]

heh, just tried that and you're right. I've never noticed it before. I just realized I lift my index finger when right clicking without even noticing I do so. I don't know if it's what I've always done or if at some point in the past I just started doing that to adjust to that deficiency in the might mouse.

Re:Argh...

[Free the Cowards]

I used one for about a week before I gave up on it, gave it to my wife, and went out and bought a $10 Logitech mouse which has worked perfectly ever since. The thing simply would not register right clicks when I wanted it to. Maybe it would if I kept using it. But honestly, spending weeks training my hand to use this mouse is not worth it compared to spending $10 on one that works properly from the start.

As for scrolling, one dimension is superior to zero dimensions, which is what my Mighty Mouse ended up having after a few months of use by my wife. When the scroll clit gets dirty it ceases to function, and the thing appears to be impervious to all known cleaning methods. So now the Mighty Mouse sits in a drawer and she uses a $10 USB scroll wheel mouse.

Re:Argh...

[Free the Cowards]

How funny! I wonder if you subconsciously trained to do that after getting a Mighty Mouse, or if you just do it anyway. If a lot of people do this subconsciously it would explain why there are so many people out there who don't think it's horrible.

Re:Argh...

[Anonymous Coward]

You still can't right click.

Re:Argh...

[tgibbs]

No it can't. It can tell which fingers are touching it. But it cannot tell the difference between pressing with your right finger or your left finger if both fingers are in contact. To perform a right click with the Mighty Mouse you have to lift up with your left finger and click with the right.

This, in a word, sucks.

However, in less than a day, I found that my brain had adapted. I don't have to think about what my fingers are doing. When I want a left click, I click and get a left click. When I want a right click, I click and get a right click. I'm sure I'm unconsciously adjusting my fingers, but it feels as if the mouse is reading my mind.

Re:Argh...

[pvera]

I just did the same experiment. It really is as if I trained myself to lift the left finger a tiny little bit. Weird.

Re:Argh...

[Free the Cowards]

I guess some people adapt faster than others. After a week of having my Mighty Mouse never reliably right click, I gave up on it and got a Logitech mouse instead, with actual physical buttons. Somehow it has never thought I wanted a left click when I actually wanted a right click.

Re:Argh...

[dangitman]

Ummm... have you set up a right-click function in the System Preferences for mouse & keyboard? Because right-clicking is not set up by default on the Mighty Mouse. You need to enable it in software.

Re:Argh...

[Squozen]

Have you turned the right-click on in your Mouse Preferences? If you don't, the default is to always left-click.

Re:Argh...

[evanspw]

The mighty mouse has another glaring design fault too - the little track ball is easily fouled by little hairs and such like, and it's a total pain to take the thing apart and get them out. There's plenty of far better mice out there. I use a neat utility called USB Overdrive to get their acceleration etc working properly under OS X.

Re:Argh...

[Moleverine]

I own the Mighty Mouse and I can't stand it. It wouldn't be so bad if it would consistently register a right-click. Unfortunately, half the time when I hit right-click, I get a left-click instead. I love the multi-direction scroll, but independent physical buttons are far more precise.

Re:Argh...

[mgrivich]

Have you used one for more than a minute or two? You'd be surprised how quickly you adapt to it; it's just another muscle-memory thing. When I'm using a more traditional two-button mouse, I find it quaint that it has actual physical buttons, and that the scroll button/wheel is only two directional.

I support macs, and use mighty mice frequently and involuntarily. I have adapted to lifting up the my left finger when right clicking. The ergonomics of these mice is horrible. Not only is there the issue with the "buttons," but the whole mouse is not shaped for a human hand and the track ball is too small. A mouse should be usable first, and beautiful second. Almost all of the problems with macintosh UI can be traced to not understanding this. Blaming the user for not being fashionable enough is not the correct approach. Fixing the mouse design is.

Re:Argh...

[Phroggy]

Exactly.

Re:Argh...

[Free the Cowards]

And just for the record for anyone reading this, you do not need third-party software to use third-party USB mice. You can just plug them in and go. Third-party software comes in handy if you want to assign special functions to extra buttons or other such things, but for a standard two-buttons-plus-scroll-wheel USB mouse, you can just plug it into your Mac and start using it.

Re:Argh...

[evanspw]

You certainly can, but in my experience third party mice have a slightly jerky motion with the standard Mac driver, and don't decelerate properly. I found it difficult to move quickly and accurately across the screen. USB Overdrive fixed that completely.

Re:Argh...

[Free the Cowards]

That is odd, I've never experienced this. I suppose it's good to have the option in any case!

Re:Argh...

[evanspw]

Yeah, it took a while to register what was going on. But the same mouse in my windows box just seemed easier to use. I googled around and came up with the mouse tool i mentioned. It's not the end of the world, but just makes it a little nicer experience.

Re:Argh...

[Gulthek]

I don't recall having any issue when I started using the mighty mouse, so I guess Apple just used a lot of us finger-lifters for their usability studies.

Of course, it doesn't really make any sense. Why did they go to all that effort to piss off any segment of the computing population? Just put two (three!) physical buttons in the thing.

Re:Argh...

[OzRoy]

I hate the mighty mouse, and not because of the right click or whatever. The problem I have is as soon as you lift the mouse you release the click. So trying to drag and drop means you have to do it in one long movement over the table and hope you don't have to reposition the mouse.

Re:Argh...

[shutdown -p now]

Have you used one for more than a minute or two? You'd be surprised how quickly you adapt to it ...

If you have to adapt to use a fscking mouse, there's something wrong with it, not with you. Unless that adaptation really buys you some other nice feature - which, in the case of MM, it does not.

Re:Argh...

[cbackas]

As much as I hate to offer any defense of that mouse, the drag problem isn't quite true. You can lift it off the desk while dragging without releasing the drag, provided you lift it by the side-tabs. The same thing works on the pre-Mighty Mouse optical mice, and I think it's the only reason those tab things are there to begin with.

Having said that, the Mighty Mouse makes even those annoying by turning 'squeeze' into an action. Can't tell you how many times I've been on a user's machine trying to drag a file someplace and I squeeze a little too hard while lifting the mouse - poof Expose. Ugh.

Re:Argh...

[indiechild]

One thing that bugs me is that AFAIK, you can't click both buttons on the Mighty Mouse at the same time -- this is a deal-breaker for many games. Does anyone know a solution for this, other than not using the MM?

I like the form factor of the wireless MM for travel purposes, but apart from that I never really use it as my primary mouse.

Mod parent up

[ameline]

I agree with all of your points -- especially the glossy screens. Looks like I'll be holding on to my 17" MacbookPro until it dies (which will probably be sooner than I'd like due to the faulty bonding materials in the 8600M gfx chip :-( )

Re:Mod parent up

[dakameleon]

Looks like I'll be holding on to my 17" MacbookPro until it dies (which will probably be sooner than I'd like due to the faulty bonding materials in the 8600M gfx chip :-( )

Apple is extending warranty for affected systems, so a little reassurance there :)

Re:But all glossy...

[Cobalt Jacket]

Do you understand that DisplayPort is capable of more than DVI? I believe it surpasses HDMI as well. Furthermore, /.-ers should be overjoyed at a connector that is royalty/license-free.

Execution at 3pm by public hanging

[mi]

system should of had

Should have had, you bloody idiot!! Chew some dough or something...

Re:But all glossy...

[demonbug]

Furthermore, /.-ers should be overjoyed at a connector that is royalty/license-free.

And yet still costs more than those royalty/license-laden connectors... funny how that works.

Re:$999 laptop only 1gb of ram? at least it is ddr

[daveywest]

www.dealram.com is where I've found all the ram currently in my Macs.

Non-replacable battery?

[slart42]

They moved the battery indicator to the computer case, instead of being part of the battery. That, together with the "new unibody enclosure", makes me wonder: Did they hard-wire the battery, as in iPods and other devices? Because, that would sort of suck!

Re:Non-replacable battery?

[ceoyoyo]

No. They moved the indicator to the side... I didn't find anything staying so, but I suspect it's a little see-through bit of the case like the new LED sleep indicator. I think the light is still on the battery itself.

Not only is the battery still removable, but the hard drive is removable (accessed under the battery compartment).

Touchscreens

[jruschme]

11:03AM Q: You've put a lot of work into the new touchpad, do touchscreens not make sense?
A: Steve: so far it hasn't made a lot of sense to us.

I confess that I don't get this one. It seems like ever major manufacturer has at least one tablet or convertible. It there really that little call for the technology in the real world? I'd think that that class full of Macbook toting students would be well served by a tablet and the handwriting recognition that has already been in the OS for quite a while.

Re:Touchscreens

[bdenton42]

I really like the idea of a touchscreen but so far I haven't found one I liked. All the ones I have actually tried had 12" screens, which is a bit too small to be much of anything but a oversized Palm/Blackberry replacement, and the screens look "fuzzy", like looking through a sheet of wax paper (not THAT bad, but something like that). 13.3" or even a 15" touchscreen with improved clarity and I'm there.

Maybe Jobs knows that it's just not ready for mass market.

Where's my 8GB of RAM?

[justcauseisjustthat]

When is Apple going to start supporting 8GB of RAM in their laptops?

Re:Where's my 8GB of RAM?

[Chaos Incarnate]

Once their OS is 64-bit clean, I suspect. (The kernel is 64-bit clean, but last I heard a bunch of their userland stuff was still 32-bit, even in OS X 10.5.)

Re:Where's my 8GB of RAM?

[mario_grgic]

It's the limitation of the chipset being used.

I'm using 8GB on my Mac Pro already. And the few 64 bit apps benefit from it. But the biggest hog of them all is Photoshop which is still 32 bit.

Re:Where's my 8GB of RAM?

[Chaos Incarnate]

Not only is, but will be for the foreseeable future—three cheers for Apple's wonderful 64-bit Carbon port...

Re:Where's my 8GB of RAM?

[ColdWetDog]

Well, yeah. It's Apple and all. But it Really Isn't A Big Deal from all I've read. 64 bit PS under Windows is maybe 10 - 15% faster than 32 bit and that for really big (gigabyte files). I'm all for additional speed, and I've been doing multiple gigabyte PS panoramas. From a Nikon D2x, the RAW files are 17 MB apiece times maybe 10 - 15 individual images - all layered. On a Mac Pro with 8 GB RAM - this takes about 20 minutes. Shaving off 4 minutes really isn't going to change much. That's just less time to troll around Slashdot.

I'll take any speed improvement, but I'm not laying in bed at night contemplating switching back to XP or Vista for a true 64 bit OS.

Re:But all glossy...

[SanityInAnarchy]

So... why didn't they just do HDMI, like everyone else?

Re:But all glossy...

[0100010001010011]

It was also JUST ANNOUNCED TODAY. Wait until it shows up on Monoprice.

Re:Want!

[jasonbowen]

I wanted one bad too. Now I wish I didn't pay the premium when I discovered just how easily the case of my MacBook Pro is damaged. I have three dents including on that has rendered my optical drive unusable. I paid $2000 for a laptop that is not as durable as advertised. I'm going back to a non-apple laptop with Linux when this one has gone through it's useful life. The only thing that brought me over to Apple was OS X and now the quality is pushing me back. The smugness of the Apple Store and the Apple Authorized repair shops has also driven me away. The asking price of $610 to replace the bottom case was also a deal breaker for me. Apple just isn't worth it and I feel stupid for having taken a drink of the kool-aid.

Re:Want!

[SanityInAnarchy]

If I could be convinced it worked well with Linux, I'd consider it.

Re:Uneven coverage?

[LWATCDR]

If that other notebook doesn't run Windows then yes.
the EeeePC, Dell9, and many other netbooks with Linux options made it to the front page.
It is only Windows notebooks that get ignored because they are frankly all the same.
Apple has come up with some interesting things like their power adapter and now this case.

Re:But all glossy...

[pushing-robot]

And yet still costs more than those royalty/license-laden connectors... funny how that works.

Because speech != beer?

We used to use hairspray on shiny CRTs

[Joce640k]

Maybe it would work. I wouldn't try it on a plastic screen though - in case it doesn't work and you have to try and get it off.

Smart

[psydeshow]

Wow, Apple is smart.

They stick with NVidia GPUs, but give you two: when the first stops working you can switch to the backup.

They're so on it.

Re:Smart

[Myraq]

Well, looks like Apple and NVidia did kiss and made up.

Re:But all glossy...

[xouumalperxe]

Because they did a superset of it, that also happens to be a VESA standard.

Thinkpads:1 MacBooks:0

[argent]

My completely serious answer to almost all of your complaints is that you should look at Lenovo's Thinkpad offerings.

If they ran OS X I'd have bought one 3 years ago.

The problem is that maybe 1% of the people buying Macbooks are buying them because they like the hardware. For the rest, Thinkpads aren't even an option.

Though the zero button mouse is REALLY making me rethink my attitude towards OSX86.

Re:Thinkpads:1 MacBooks:0

[slaker]

Yes, you have to install a hacked version of OSX.
But I assure you that it does run.

White MacBook with 2GB?

[TheSync]

What happened to the White MacBook with 2GB RAM?

Re:White MacBook with 2GB?

[Massacrifice]

I bought the last one three weeks ago, at full price, and am now stuck with it since the two-week period for returning just finished. Want to buy it?

No only are Macs 500$ more expensive than comparable PCs, but you're also at the mercy of the manufacturer when it comes to resale value.

Thanks for nothing, Apple.

Re:White MacBook with 2GB?

[bledri]

I bought the last one three weeks ago, at full price...

Bummer. Maybe this will help next time: Mac Rumours Buyers Guide

No only are Macs 500$ more expensive than comparable PCs, but you're also at the mercy of the manufacturer when it comes to resale value.

For what it's worth, Macs seem to hold resale value pretty well. Obviously, this week is not the best week to try to sell, I'm talking long term...

Re:White MacBook with 2GB?

[jeffb (2.718)]

I bought the last one three weeks ago, at full price, and am now stuck with it since the two-week period for returning just finished.

The new machines have been expected for months, and the Tuesday Oct 14 release date has been widely forecast for over a month.

No only are Macs 500$ more expensive than comparable PCs, but you're also at the mercy of the manufacturer when it comes to resale value.

How long should Apple hold off releasing new systems after you buy your computer?

Re:White MacBook with 2GB?

[Massacrifice]

The new machines have been expected for months and the Tuesday Oct 14 release date has been widely forecast for over a month.

I wasn't considering buying a Mac until 15 minutes before I bought it. And even if I had done my research, as I should have, I wouldn't have found the info because I dont hang around Mac websites or people, as I dont buy into the Mac-as-a-religion thing. What I was saying is, obsolence happens in a much more drastic way when there is only one supplier, and that supplier happens to thrive on fashion and hype to sell their stuff. With an ecosystem of suppliers like on the PC side, change is more constant, and deprecation occurs gradually.

How long should Apple hold off releasing new systems after you buy your computer?

At least until my girlfriend stops arguing with me about how I shouldn't have bought it. There's only so much trouble a man can handle...

Re:But all glossy...

[xouumalperxe]

Scratch that, it's not an actual superset, but it's easy enough to convert from one to the other, and it's (supposedly) better. The wikipedia article on it does show a good set of features, including a standard for internal connections (like those used in laptops).

Release timing

[stickyc]

Why is Apple releasing new laptops right after the start of the school year (for most folks)?

Re:Release timing

[hondo77]

Because they're releasing them right before the start of the Christmas shopping season.

Re:Release timing

[dave562]

Because all of the regular poor people buy their hardware at back to school sales. The ultra-uber hipster Apple using folks can whine to daddy for new hardware whenever it comes out. On a slightly less condescending note, we are going into the Christmas season. The UUH Apple users can whine to daddy about wanting one for Christmas. ;)

Re:Release timing

[Neoprofin]

That was going to be my answer: because everyone just bought their back to school MB, "AND NOW YOU CAN BUY ANOTHER ONE!" Apple says as they laugh all the way to bank.

Re:Release timing

[Jorophose]

Back to school is bigger than Christmas from what I hear, at least for OEMs.

How many times have you woken up to a computer on christmas morning? What about your non-computerloving friends?

But then again, this means they cleared out most of the old stuff during the high sales, and now it's only the new ones.

meh

[Speare]

* I've got MBP 17" now. I like it. They are dropping that size.

* I don't like the new "partial tapered" (their term) or "puffy" (my term) lid.

* I don't like the black bezel inside the lid. Match the whole case.

* I hate the fugly new keyboards that feel and look like IBM PCjr chicklet.

* I don't care if it's magnetic or a button to pop the lid.

* I don't care if there's a slot visible on the front.

* I don't like having to carry yet another kind of custom one-use rat tail to put my laptop on someone else's cheap VGA-style projector.

* I don't like losing a Firewire port. All the little RAID cabinets like Firewire.

* I do wish my MBP had heat sensors on the graphics system; the processor sensors are sometimes midrange while the graphics head is starting to exhibit heat-induced artifacts. When running clamshell I have to run it on top of a cooling tray device or crank the internal fans to 3000rpm.

* I do wish they'd fix the runaway-syslogd problem in Leopard. I have read all the howtos and forum lists, nothing but a 15min cronjob to kill it is helping.

* I do wish they'd fix the too-many-hd-resets problem in Leopard, if I leave the machine on overnight with little disk activity, my drive will reset itself to a state it won't spin up again. Everything RAM-resident runs, but more and more processes go zombie when the disk doesn't spin up.

With all this preoccupation about flash and gloss in the hardware, there is a growing list of software problems. Return to the basics.

Re:meh

[greyhueofdoubt]

>>I do wish my MBP had heat sensors on the graphics system

That's funny, because my MBP has a few GPU heat sensors- one called gpu diode and one called gpu heatsink. And it's been a while, but I believe there is a heat pipe from the gpu to a larger heatsink situated under the fans.

How old is your mbp? My model is macbookpro 3,1

-b

Re:meh

[profplump]

I agree video adaptors are annoying, but DisplayPort is a step in the right direction -- it's not something that Apple invented, and it's becoming available on Dell, HP, Lenovo, Samsung, etc. systems and displays as well.

So at the very least you won't be stuck buying Apple-produced adaptors or having the adaptor only work with one model of laptop.

http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/us/en/en/WF06c/A10-51210-64268-348724-64268-3769762-3769763-3769765.html

Re:meh

[tfoss]

I've got MBP 17" now. I like it. They are dropping that size.

Not according to the Q&A or apple store. It just doesn't get the update that you seem so "meh" on. You should consider that a win.

-Ted

Re:meh

[Smenj]

* I've got MBP 17" now. I like it. They are dropping that size.

No, they're not dropping it. It just getting a feature bump rather than a full redesign. My guess is a redesigned 17" will be out in a few months.

* I don't care if it's magnetic or a button to pop the lid.

Magnetic is definitely better. The lid on my Santa Rosa MBP will occasionally pop open if I reach in my bag and hit the button accidentally. Also, it will sometimes wake up in my bag, and I'll find it roasting with a dead battery. Haven't seen that happen on a MacBook with a magnetic latch.

* I do wish my MBP had heat sensors on the graphics system; the processor sensors are sometimes midrange while the graphics head is starting to exhibit heat-induced artifacts. When running clamshell I have to run it on top of a cooling tray device or crank the internal fans to 3000rpm.

I am so glad they're using the integrated graphics in addition to the discrete. Honestly I don't need stellar graphics, but Intel's are just too slow. This new solution is the way to go. Here's hoping the new ones don't have to run the fan just to waste time on Slashdot.

With all this preoccupation about flash and gloss in the hardware, there is a growing list of software problems. Return to the basics.

Sure they should fix there software, but that doesn't mean they should never release any new hardware unless the software is perfect. Think about that for a second.

Re:meh

[daybot]

* I've got MBP 17" now. I like it. They are dropping that size.

* Not necessarily. They're still selling the 'old-style' 17" laptop and may introduce a new-style 17" model later on. Car manufacturers do this with convertible models.

With all this preoccupation about flash and gloss in the hardware, there is a growing list of software problems. Return to the basics.

* Which is exactly what they claim to be doing with Snow Leopard.

Re:meh

[garote]

* I've got MBP 17" now. I like it. They are dropping that size.

No they're not.

* I don't like having to carry yet another kind of custom one-use rat tail to put my laptop on someone else's cheap VGA-style projector.

This hasn't changed.

* I do wish my MBP had heat sensors on the graphics system; the processor sensors are sometimes midrange while the graphics head is starting to exhibit heat-induced artifacts.

It does.

* I do wish they'd fix the runaway-syslogd problem in Leopard. I have read all the howtos and forum lists, nothing but a 15min cronjob to kill it is helping.
* I do wish they'd fix the too-many-hd-resets problem in Leopard, if I leave the machine on overnight with little disk activity, my drive will reset itself to a state it won't spin up again. Everything RAM-resident runs, but more and more processes go zombie when the disk doesn't spin up.

Never experienced or seen either of these myself.

* I don't like the new "partial tapered" (their term) or "puffy" (my term) lid.
* I don't like the black bezel inside the lid. Match the whole case.
* I hate the fugly new keyboards that feel and look like IBM PCjr chicklet.
* I don't care if it's magnetic or a button to pop the lid.
* I don't care if there's a slot visible on the front.

Then screw you, jack. Go buy a Dell. Or better yet: Don't replace what you have, and donate a couple thousand bucks to a charity instead.
You know what I don't like? Sugarless gum. And those new-fangled behind-the-head earphones. I also don't like tiny toy dogs. And open-toed shoes. And I hate vinyl records. And I hate it when the cat drinks from the toilet. Furthermore, I hate other people's personal preferences, and the way they spew them onto public forums like they have any qualitative value whatsoever.

Re:meh

[petermgreen]

It looks like apple aren't using plain displayport though but A variant of thier own called "mini displayport"

That's what you get when you make them so thin

[Joce640k]

The air looks cool, but don't sit on it or stuff it in a duffel bag...

Discovered?

[qoncept]

"10:14 PT: "We discovered that if we started with a thick piece of aluminium and removed material to make physical features in the structure, we could make a much lighter but much stronger part."

Holy cow! Someone needs to let all the manufacturers in the world know this! Unless Apple didn't discover it at all.

Re:Discovered?

[greyhueofdoubt]

There has to be more to the story wrt cost. Everybody knows that billet-machined parts are weaker than pretty much any other process (die casting, forging, pressing, etc.)

The other processes add strength in the contour of the finished shape, while a machined part's strength follows the original billet's grain.

Imagine the metal as a big block of laminated wood- imagine machining a part out of the block vs bending the laminate to the finished specs. Notice how much stronger the bent parts will be (if stress-relieved).

Coffee, I need coffee.

Re:Discovered?

[qoncept]

You seem to understand the principle, but somewhere along the line you got mixed up and completely backwards.

Re:Discovered?

[greyhueofdoubt]

Perhaps I botched the explanation, but my point to people was that out of the options (machining, forging, stamping, die casting), machining a part out of billet will offer the highest per-unit cost over time and the lowest introduced strength. I doubt Apple has found a way to make this technique easier or cheaper or lest wasteful.

They did the math and found that the increased per-unit cost was offset by the high initial cost of tool and die making for a cast or forged case considering how many MBP's they expect to sell. The only reason we're even hearing about this is that the marketing dept got wind of it and thought it sounded cool. And apparently so do most people, so kudos to them. I kind of wish I hadn't sold all my AAPL stock last year.

-b

Re:Discovered?

[Free the Cowards]

I don't see anything in there that says they discovered it first, asshole.

AAPL moves mostly with the broader market

[Erastus]

AAPL has a Beta of 2.91 which means its price generally moves three times what the broader market does. Now check this chart showing AAPL compared to the S&P500: http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ta?t=1d&s=AAPL&l=on&z=m&q=l&c=&c=%5EGSPC

Make's Take

[BrendaEM]

The billet aluminum construction allows Apple to have the case made from almost any competent CNC shop. Thought they were extruding the material to rough the size for savings, the dimension could also be cut from plate. This means that Apple is no longer stuck with a single-source for cases. Stamped and bent fussy parts and custom dies are not needed. Minor product changes, such as adding bosses/riser can be done on the fly.

The inside of the case could have been milled using a ball mill which would have introduced radii that would keep the thick/thin area transitions from failure when there is a fall.

In the future, they may be able to add more support for a tougher case. Still, I still would not want to drop a new Macbook pro.

The radius on the edge of the case should have a larger radius to be more comfortable, but also to minimize that sharp edge as a wear indicator. Ives is good, but like everyone else--not perfect, someone needs to know when and when not to question him.

The better graphic chip in the Macbook means that It can finally run graphic applications, and the change may have something to do with Nvidia Cuda support in applications such Photoshop--bearing down on product design. It also means that Macbooks may be able to run FinalCut, or have enough graphic power to play and edit home movies from their AVCHD digital camcorder.

I am saddened by the exclusion of a matte screen. While it is a personal preference, I feel that glossy screens do not work well in indoor/outdoor environments such as coffeeshops. To watch Apple's own product design videos, is to see the glare for yourself.

I am uncertain whether or not there is a interference coating on the screen. Adding a second piece of glass could add 5% transmission loss per service, meaning 10% if the glass is not interference coated. This means a brighr backlight setting, and the loss of batter life. The expansive glass on the screen goes close to the edges, meaning that a 3mm dent in the lid will probably shatter the cover glass. I reason that the older Macbook Pro would survive that damage, and the new ones would not.

Brenda Make

Re:Make's Take

[greyhueofdoubt]

>>a 3mm dent in the lid will probably shatter the cover glass.

Just the other day I noticed that I see more iphones get dropped than anything else I can recall. I think it is the shape and the fact that you have to handle it gingerly to keep your fingers off the screen (causing inadvertent inputs).

Anyways, your post got me to thinking that despite all the abuse, I've never seen an iphone actually break from being dropped. razrs and the like, on the other hand... I wouldn't worry too much about the glass breaking on these new mbp's. Glass that thin has quite a bit of give to it.

-b

Re:Make's Take

[Detaer]

I have seen a number of iphones that have a cracked glass surface from being dropped on the corner when impacting cement. My previous phone was a motorola razr and I had it in the closed position and I stepped on it a number of times. The razr and the iphone are both in good working condition to this day. The UI of the iphone and delicate uncovered glass display seems like it will break before the razr with average usage and the occasional drop. The razr also was the best mobile phone I have ever had for actually using as a phone. I have the odd feeling my next phone will be a phone with blue tooth tethering options, flip style like a razr and my next remote admin system will be a nokia n8xx.

Re:Make's Take

[dangitman]

It also means that Macbooks may be able to run FinalCut

Uhhh, my old iBook can run Final Cut Pro. Every Macbook ever made is certainly capable.

Re:Make's Take

[RMH101]

Can I commend you for standing on your RAZR? I wanted to do this from the moment my company issued me with one.

A mini refresh comming?

[LWATCDR]

With a display port and the nVidia 9400m?

apple remote?

[fishboy]

is it just me or have they dropped the apple remote on both the macbook and macbook pros? can't see any mention of it in the tech specs, what's included in the box. i would be surprised if they moved away from this, it seems like the whole front row display software is built around it.

Re:apple remote?

[phillymjs]

Available as an add-on option for $19. They stopped including it a while ago, to reduce costs. Most people use them once or twice and then they go in a drawer, never to be touched again. I only carry one to demo Front Row to clients, but I don't actually -use- it. This way, only the people who want them get them.

~Philly

Re:apple remote?

[tubegeek]

Not sure I even used mine the one time. It's in The Basket Of Things Too Useless To Use But Too Important To Throw Out.

New bezel = the sux0rz

[Piranhaa]

Is it just me, or did they increase the bezel on the Macbook Pro by like 30-40%??

Before: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9a/MacBook_Pro.jpg
After: http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2008/10/mbp05.jpg

Re:But all glossy...

[plazman30]

Display Port is the new industry standard. All the new HPs laptops are coming with Display Port.

Re:But all glossy...

[plazman30]

HDMI has patents and licensing involved. That's why almost no PC maker is using it.

Display Port is a free industry standard.

Their marketing department is on drugs

[Locke2005]

"New design. New features. New technologies. All engineered to standards that don't even exist yet.

I realize they are probably referring to 802.11n which is still in draft status, but come on... if a standard "doesn't exist", how the hell can you "engineer to" it? How about saying "Here at Apple, we're 100% compliant with standards we haven't even written yet... 'cause first we build the product, then we write the standard to match exactly what the product does!"

Re:Their marketing department is on drugs

[Massacrifice]

I think the 802.11n standard is a matter of details now. All current wireless chipsets are technically capable of it, but may not implement it identically. Once the standard gets formalized, a firmware update should be enough to give you full compatibilty with other n-compliant devices. So it's more like "n-capable" in a "Vista-capable" way than really n-compliant. I guess the marketing guys got tired of waiting for the standard...

Re:Their marketing department is on drugs

[jrothwell97]

They're talking about quality standards, one assumes, not standardised protocols and methods.

Re:Want!

[chaim79]

holy cow, where are you using it, a rockslide???

I have a 17-inch MacBook Pro, I don't have a normal laptop case just a backpack and a neoprene sleeve and I've got no dents. I've taken it:

• Vacations (camping out for a week or more at a time)
• School (dragged it in and unpacked it for each class)
• Business trips (lived my weekdays in a hotel for 4-5 months, weekends had running at home)
• Everywhere else (I often take it with me to friends houses when I'm helping them with something computer related).

It's been all over the place and plenty of times packed in the back of the car with a ton of other gear and I have no problems, whatever you are doing must be well beyond the normal usage of a laptop. I suspect you'll have the same dent/damage problems with whatever laptop you buy, you are aparently somewhat abusive of your computers.

Re:Want!

[rubah]

Do it yourself then. If they're not repairing it then you probably don't have any warranty left to void.
http://www.ifixit.com/

$240 for a 15"mbp case bottom.

Re:Want!

[suzerain]

What do you do to your laptop, exactly? I don't mean that in a nasty way...I'm really wondering. My MacBook Pro has been to 10-15 countries, used in cafes and airplanes and everywhere in between, toted around in a backpack, and it rides on my back when I ride my bike. It has no dents. I certainly could dent the thing (it's dentable), but I'm wondering if your normal wear-and-tear perhaps isn't so normal?

Re:But all glossy...

[saboola]

and.... NOW the wikipedia article states that the Mini DisplayPort is a bi-product of Kraft Velveeta cheese.

I'd buy one

[FictionPimp]

It's enough of an upgrade that I'd consider selling my macbook pro to buy a macbook (and that nifty new monitor)

Re:Want!

[jasonbowen]

Yes, blame the victim. It has to be me. Your experiences do not invalidate mine. I've abused the hell out of my laptops in the past and never had these kind of issues. It fell from a table on to a padded carpet surface. I've done worse with less consequences before. I don't expect my case to bend and crack from the abuse, especially when it is advertised partly on its hard aluminum case.

Re:Want!

[jasonbowen]

I've thought about it. I do have warranty left. The one bottom they had was a used one the last time I looked, I don't think they can get new Apple product.

MacBook has no FireWire anymore.

[Maverick Hunter Zero]

Someone please tag this article as either !firewire or macbooklacksfirewire, please... Lack of FireWire is unacceptable, in my opinion.

Of course, if I were to replace my laptop now, I'd get a Pro anyways, cause that's what I currently have.

Um, are you sure?

[Estanislao Mart�nez]

Has this changed recently? Because at least as recently as my 1st-gen Macbook Pro, upgrading the RAM on any Mac I've ever used doesn't void the warranty. Hell, the computer's instruction booklet shows you how do to it.

Re:The $1600 system should of had 128-256 of vram

[Chaos Incarnate]

This was specifically a notebook event. iMac/Mac Pro will probably be seeing updates in January at MacWorld.

Re:Smart people.

[Just Some Guy]

Apple is overpriced.

No, they're not. As long as they're reaching their sales goals, their price is less than or equal to what it could be. For having such a high opinion of yourself and your financial habits, you suck at economics.

Re:Want!

[jeremyp]

Unless you have ideological reasons for preferring Linux to Mac OS X why would you care if Linux runs on it or not? OS X is Unix and will run all the same software Linux will run.

Why?

[SaDan]

What possible advantage would Apple hardware give you over any other brand of laptop when you want to run Linux?

Re:Why?

[SanityInAnarchy]

Mostly, right now, that's looking better than what I've got.

Better video card, nicer case, same options if I spend enough money.

Plus, the possibility of legitimately dual-booting OS X, or triple-booting with Windows. I much prefer Linux, as a primary OS, but if I have to boot something else, there's always the chance I get to boot OS X instead of Windows, which can only be a good thing.

Re:Want!

[Eli Gottlieb]

Currently you have to use ndiswrapper on most distros for the Airport cards of the MBP, but the ath9k driver will work natively if you can get that installed.

Re:Smart people.

[mrjimorg]

I love Apple - whenever someone asks me to be their tech I just tell them to go to the Apple genius bar. I'm free!!!!!

Steve...YOUR A TWIT!!!

[DesScorp]

Well there went my hope that they'd finally offer us two-buttons.

*sighs*

There is nothing I hate more than having to use a trackpad as a click-button. You try to move the cursor and open up half a dozen links accidentally.

I nearly sent back my Dell until we found drivers that let me turn that feature off. :(

Steve...YOUR A TWIT!!!

Is anyone else actually looking forward to the day that Steve Jobs retires? Every computer Apple now makes either looks like a hunk of metal and glass or a cheese grater; its brutalist architecture for the PC, and it's just as ugly on computers as it is on buildings.

It's also painfully obvious that he doesn't give a rat-fuck about what end users want; note the number of mouse buttons on the new laptops.

Jobs built, and then re-built, this company into what it is, but I'm tired of all the computer models being his personal art project. You can expect excellence in design from Apple without this depressing, Bauhaus case design that Apple seems addicted to now. We're getting German worker housing in a PC, and paying a premium for it. Apple computers used to be beautiful and original. I love my eMac... it's instantly recognizable as an Apple with its white plastic and round curves. Now all of Apple's computers are dark, gun-metal slabs. I seriously wonder if Jobs and Ive spend all their time shooting heroin and listening to Goth music in the dark now.

Re:Steve...YOUR A TWIT!!!

[badkarmadayaccount]

Industrial style, eh? Now, get some Sun Microsystems hardware in it, preferably with a low voltage Sirocco core, to make up for the outrageous pricetag, and i might look into it. Seriously, why do users insist on their PCs (OK, Macs) looking like toys?

Say what you will

[melted]

But one thing is not even up for debate - Apple designs gorgeous, high quality hardware, and then also kicks ass in customer service if something goes wrong. They're willing to go the extra mile, I'm willing to pay more for it, because no other hardware manufacturer seems to really give a shit about their products. I spend several hours a day, each and every day, using my laptop. Quality matters in this case.

Yes, then can boot from USB

[rsborg]

Intel Macs can. Oh, and so can PowerPC macs.

Apple Mice

[DesScorp]

"Hopefully the MacBook trackpads are better. Sounds like they are. But the Mighty Mouse is just utterly horrible."

Yup. I use a Microsoft optical mouse with my Mac. The people at Apple have mouse issues, apparently.

Re:$999 laptop only 1gb of ram? at least it is ddr

[geekoid]

depends.

I have an older mobo that has to have DDR ECC.
78 Bucks a gig kit. The mobo is a real performer, but you want to run top, you pay for top.

I just went to pricewatch and couldn't find 2 gigs of DDR3 for under 100 bucks. the decent stuff was 140+
So I'm not seeing the "ripoff" there.

One word: RIPOFF.

[HerculesMO]

Sorry, but they are.

They are taking the existing Macbook which was offered for $1099 and lowering to $999. That's NO NEW TECH, just the same old Macbook with the horrible onboard graphics for a thousand smackers. Fine.

Then they are offering a higher class Macbook for $1299, which offers a graphics card that is already far surpassed by everything on the market. Looking at the price point, I can get myself a Gateway laptop with a 9800M, 4GB of RAM, big fat hard drive, faster processor, for about the same money. I can dual boot Ubuntu and Windows on it, and it will FLY. In fact, it actually will surpass the Macbook PRO for the same money. So you're talking about a $1000 premium (if not more) for the Macbook Pro to get a computer that is no better than something I can buy for about $800 (if I opt for a slower graphics card to match the 9600 the MBP comes with).

I like OS X. It's pretty. But unless it's video or audio editing, I don't have a specific need for a Mac over a PC/Linux dual boot. I can run my website on my Red Hat server (which I do), and use XP on my day-to-day. Aside from cutesy graphics and slick user interface, I don't think that it's worth a $1000 premium when I'm actually getting a more poor performing laptop for the money.

I'm sure I'll get modded down, but it is the truth. There's nothing a Mac can do that a PC or Ubuntu system can't do as well. Some Mac does better, but it's a function more of the software, than the platform.

Re:One word: RIPOFF.

[moracity]

What's your point?

Re:One word: RIPOFF.

[King_TJ]

That's YOUR opinion, but I'd argue it's quite one-sided and flawed too.

First off, you're upset that they dropped the price of a big selling notebook (older style white Macbook) by $100? Yeah, it's not "new tech", but it's a proven design people bought millions of already. And today, it's $100 cheaper than yesterday. If you follow typical Apple product life-cycles, it's likely it's going away within the next 6-9 months anyway. They like to do this with popular products, rather than immediately dropping them. (Remember the eMac, or the PowerMac G4 towers when they became the last system still capable of running MacOS 9.x natively?)

As for that Gateway laptop you're talking about? Does it have a mag-safe adapter on it? How about a backlit keyboard? When you lock one with a Kensington security cable, does it also lock the battery and hard drive compartments? How's the support from old Gateway these days? (I can still visit one of a couple local Apple stores in town, but "Gateway Country" stores didn't fare so well.....) And obviously, it lacks OS X too.

Buy what you like, but personally, I'm more inclined to say the real "ripoff" are these sub-standard quality laptops Toshiba, Gateway, Dell, HP and others keep cranking out. I have no problem paying more for quality, and I think with Apple, it's generally there. (Claiming OS X is simply "cutesy graphics and a slick UI" sells it pretty short too, but I'm not even going to get started on that.)

Re:One word: RIPOFF.

[HerculesMO]

So you want to pay a $1000 premium for a mag safe adaptor and backlit keyboard?

I'm not saying buy a Gateway. I'm just saying that for the money, and for what you get, it's simply not worth it.

Re:Incorrect. Macs can boot from USB

[daveywest]

Clarification: Intel Macs can boot from USB. Details can be found here: http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1948

What's on the insides?

[pickinboy]

Is it Quad Core and SSD yet? Hope NVidia is there for Apple warranty claims after they finish paying HP....

Re:But all glossy...

[Anonymous Coward]

Look again. Sure, $30 will get you a DVI adaptor, but if you want dual link (for that 30") you need the $100 model...

No, there's a good reason for glossy

[Nicolas MONNET]

A matte screen reflect some of the directed light no matter what the angle, so you lose contrast in every case. With a glossy screen, the light is reflected only at certain angles, and unless you're at the wrong angle, the contrast is much better.

Design Video

[astrosmash]

The video of the MacBook's manufacturing process is pretty cool. It's always a treat to see video of something that looks like it actually belongs in the 21st century.

Re:Want!

[Zakabog]

I wanted one bad too. Now I wish I didn't pay the premium when I discovered just how easily the case of my MacBook Pro is damaged. I have three dents including on that has rendered my optical drive unusable. I paid $2000 for a laptop that is not as durable as advertised.

What the hell did you drop your laptop on that it has three dents? You can possibly dent the corners if you drop it onto a hard enough surface, although I have a MacBook Pro and it fell on the top left corner of the LCD. It was a 3' fall onto brick and the laptop is fine except for a scratch where it contacted the brick (girlfriend placed the laptop half on a table and her cat jumped on the part hanging over the table, caused it to fall over onto the brick.)

Besides, be glad your laptop still works, people drop their plastic laptops all the time and the plastic flexes (or cracks.) Since it's attached firmly to the motherboard, the motherboard can't handle the stress so it snaps (not fully but enough to create a short, I've seen it happen a lot.) Then they're out the price of a new motherboard which can easily cost $700-$1000 for a laptop.

Or another thing that happens, pieces start flying off the plastic laptops. Drop it on a hard surface and the whole shell cracks, sometimes the LCD hinges break and your LCD no longer stays up, or you drop it on your power connection, well that snaps the DC jack right off the motherboard and you need to either replace the motherboard or solder on a new DC jack. With an apple the power connection disconnects itself easily so you don't run into that problem, plus you'll never need to worry that the connection is going to get worn out from being plugged in/unplugged so many times.

As far as the price of the repair is concerned, well that's standard pricing for a laptop being "officially" repaired. The parts are very expensive from the manufacturer. You can find a shop that will get the part off ebay and repair it for ~$200. Or if you really need to, try and repair the bottom yourself.

Re:Glossy only? Agreed!

[King_TJ]

I have the matte finish Macbook Pro right now, but I've gone to glossy displays for all of my new LCD monitor purchases, and am now going to order a new MB Pro - glossy screen and all.

The only people I really hear throwing huge fits about this are the self-proclaimed "pro photography" set, who claim they can't do accurate color comparisons without their matte displays.

To them, I say:

1. You couldn't do them anyway on most LCD matte finish laptop screens, when they weren't even accurately displaying all 16.7 million colors in the spectrum at all.

2. If you're fighting the glare issue, you're working in sub-optimal conditions that aren't conducive to anything as tedious as color matching and photo touch-up work! Consider it your warning that you need to change your surroundings before continuing your work ... not a reason to get a different display.

And BTW, not all "glossy" displays are created equal, either. I recently tried out a glossy finish Acer 22" LCD panel that everyone describes as more of a "semi gloss" look.

Re:$999 laptop only 1gb of ram? at least it is ddr

[diqmay]

accessing/changing the ram on the previous MacBooks didn't void your warranty, so I wouldn't assume that it will void it on the new line either.

re: dented cases?

[King_TJ]

I got a nasty ding in one corner of my old Aluminum Powerbook, one time, when it fell off a table onto a concrete floor at a job site.

Truthfully though, there's no reason to believe that same impact wouldn't have caused a big crack in the plastic of a different laptop?

The machine still worked just fine afterwards, which was the critical thing. And with the advent of the mag-safe adapter plug, the situation that caused the fall in the first place would have been avoided.

Since then, I've owned 2 more aluminum Apple notebooks, and I've managed to keep them pretty much ding and scratch free. It's no different than the iPods, really. If you put them in a case whenever possible and treat them like the expensive piece of electronics gear they are, they'll serve you well and you'll keep them looking nice.

If you can't take better care of your stuff, you may want to look at those "Toughbook" laptops instead?

A note regarding "glossy" screens.

[rizzo320]

It seems a lot of people are upset with the glossy screens being the only option in the new MacBook models. I was a doubter myself but the glass displays on the iMac (20" and 24") are relatively glare free. The LED backlights are very bright and compensate for most of the glare. I have one right now next to a Samsung SyncMaster 226BW with a matte finish and the Samsung is actually showing more glare than the iMac.

What further surprises me even more is that the graphic design and photography faculty that I support have been requesting the glossy option on the MacBook Pro's for the last few years. The few I asked about it feel the display is better with color than the matte finish. Of course I'm sure what they really wish they could get is one of the pro LaCie or NEC monitors, but the MacBook Pro glossy displays seem to satisfy their needs on a laptop.

Re:Smart people.

[manekineko2]

If you read his comment again, you'll see from the context that he means Apple is overpriced with respect to what he is willing to pay, and that people who are willing to pay extra are being irrational because they don't provide enough additional value. It has nothing to do with the economics point you are making.

Re:Uneven coverage?

[manekineko2]

Jeez, did I got modded Troll on this by a Slashdot editor? What aspect of this is trolling, and who could be being trolled by it? I think I made a perfectly valid point on the concept of using the number of comments as a measure of worthiness to be on the front page.

Re:Want!

[egomaniac]

You know, I've been using laptops for 22 years now. Well, I guess the IBM PC Convertible didn't really count as a "laptop", but you know what I mean.

So anyway, in all that time I have never once dropped a laptop. I certainly haven't dropped one and then come on a message board complaining about the fact that it's damaged... after I... uhhh... dropped it. Not only that, but you said in another message that you've done worse to your laptops before.

So your feeling is evidently that "minor cosmetic damage after DROPPING THE DAMNED THING" is a dealbreaker, while I'm pretty much thinking "Wow, you dropped it and it still works! Huzzah!"

Seriously, you weren't just relieved that it still worked?

Re:But all glossy...

[repetty]

> ...if you buy the $30 adapter for it.

I bought one of those adapters recently at Best Buy. It cost $15.

I had to sell my car.

Consumers may love it. Pros won't.

[weston]

Phil: You offset the reflection by the brightness, and consumers love it.

That's great, but people who actually have to *work* for a while on their machines will probably hate it.

I thoroughly hate it, so thoroughly that it was a complete dealbreaker for me on the MacBook and MacBook Air, so thoroughly that I very nearly hate Phil personally for that statement, so thoroughly that despite everything else I love about Apple products, if I can only get them with a glossy screen, I might not bother.

One of the great things about a notebook is you can turn it however you want!

That's true if the environment you're working in doesn't have any constraints on which way you're sitting, which is often not the case. And I don't want to spend time futzing around with avoiding glare. I have other things to do with this machine I've bought.

Re:Consumers may love it. Pros won't.

[rtechie]

That's true if the environment you're working in doesn't have any constraints on which way you're sitting, which is often not the case. And I don't want to spend time futzing around with avoiding glare. I have other things to do with this machine I've bought.

If you're computing from a fixed seating position you're probably sitting at a desk. Get an external keyboard, mouse, and monitor, there are plenty of matte monitors available. Sure it costs extra, but you're already paying extra for the Apple logo, what's another $500?

Re:$999 laptop only 1gb of ram? at least it is ddr

[repetty]

> Mini DisplayPort to DVI Adapter $29
>
> Mini DisplayPort to VGA Adapter $29

Best Buy sells each, 3rd party, for $15.

Dueling Anecdotes

[weston]

And having used one for the past year, the glare issue is really a red herring. I don't notice it.

That's great that it doesn't bother you, and I think it's fine that people who for whatever reason don't seem to mind glare can buy glossy screens, but the tone of your post is so dismissive of the genuine problems people have with glossy screens that it's bordering on insulting.

It's really hard to fathom that anyone who has actually used a glossy display for any serious amount of time wouldn't prefer it to a matte display.

For a bit over two months this year I was borrowing laptops while mine broke, including a MacBook. They had glossy screens. I absolutely hate them. I suppose you can argue that 2 months for 8-14 hours per day of use isn't a "serious amount of time", but you'd be wrong.

OK, I give, where is the 1K premium from Pro

[Shivetya]

coming from?

Even the screen isn't that much of a leap. 1440x900? WHAT? You have to be kidding, if Dell did that at this price point they would be laughed out of the room.

As for the concerns with Glossy. Sorry, but I doubt serious graphics are done on ANY laptop screen. If your doing real graphics works you have large monitors if not two of them. The problem I have is that I cannot see any value in the Pro's over the base model, well I should say I can't see $1000 of value

Re:OK, I give, where is the 1K premium from Pro

[confu2000]

Assuming you mean the old white plastic $1K model.. Well, old white plastic.

Assuming you mean the new aluminium model, the approximately same specs version for $1699 runs $300 cheaper than the low end $1999 15".

It was always the case that the MacBook was basically a Pro without discrete graphics. That's still the case for the $1K model even back when it was $1199.

Re:OK, I give, where is the 1K premium from Pro

[Peganthyrus]

I'm a professional artist and animator, and my only screen is my several-year-old 15" G4 Powerbook. I'd like to have an external screen to hook it up to but I can't afford one right now. At the current day gig I have a big-ass tower Mac with two monitors, and honestly it makes my neck hurt.

There are tons of people whose pro machine is a laptop. Especially freelancers: you can throw it and the tablet in your bag and go out to the café when 'working at home' becomes 'slacking' too often.

Re:But all glossy...

[TheNetAvenger]

HDMI has patents and licensing involved. That's why almost no PC maker is using it.

Almost every PC maker is using it. Is this satire?

Additionally most external monitors and consumer level large screen 'TV' displays are designed around HDMI.

I am not cheering for HDMI, just looking at reality.

Re:Smart people.

[Just Some Guy]

No, I think he was just being coolly anti-establishment, and blanketly stating that Apple's products are overpriced. To that, I assert that the market is willing to bear the price, so they must be correctly priced regardless of his opinion on the matter.

I'm typing this on an Eee PC. Apple could go out of business tomorrow and it wouldn't affect me one bit. Still, I think their pricing is between them and their customers, and right now everyone seems to be happy.

Re:But all glossy...

[nine-times]

Because speech != beer?

...and yet for me at parties, beer = speech.

We have quite a mathematical conundrum on our hands.

HDMI DisplayPort

[yabos]

HDMI has limited resolution compared to DisplayPort making it the inferior spec.

MacBook Pro - new model can be purchased for $1699

[mah!]

Many /. readers are college students, possibly in computer-related fields.

Enrolling to Student ADC ($100), and using the developer HW discount for a MacBook Pro ($1599), brings the total to $1699+taxes.

Re:Want!

[erple2]

I am assuming that you mean it's because the keyboard isn't one of those fancy shmancy "ergonomic" keyboards.

Otherwise, you should take out a ruler, and measure the keyboards of any 15" laptop available (heck, even any 13+" laptop). I think that you'll see the keys are the same size as on a regular keyboard... On my older 15" (hp) latop, I measure the distance from the start of the "A" key to the end of the single quote key to be 21cm (or about 8.25 inches). How large is it on your keyboard? :)

Re:Glossy only? Agreed!

[entertainment]

I do visual effects for film, i work in front of both my laptop and an array of different screens for 14 hrs a day on the regular. Glossy screens are just not acceptable for the calibration and perception standards required in these environments - sorry I wont be buying, and I already had my credit card to go. If they change it up I will be back on the shipping list, my 2cents

Definitely a known problem--hence the redesign

[snowwrestler]

Dented and flexed cases in the AL Powerbooks and Macbook Pros are a pretty well known problem. Drop it just right onto concrete or tile, even from a pretty short height, and you might find yourself with a big dent or an unusable optical drive. This is an unfortunate side effect of using such thin, stamped AL for the case.

This is a big reason they redesigned the case. The 3-D milling allows very precise placement of material, which should produce a stiffer case for the same weight. But also take a look at how they designed the case. The bottom half used to be a single "tub" of aluminum, with a separate piece for the "deck." Now the sides are attached to the deck, with a separate piece for the very bottom surface. This creates stronger corners, and an easily-replacable bottom surface if a dent does occur.

Also, take a look at where they put the optical bay. This is one of the weakest parts of the structure because it's a big hole in the sidewall. Again, the milling should allow them to thicken the border of the disc port a bit, to stiffen it up. And it's placed directly over the battery, which is one of the strongest and most solid parts of the computer.

I think the new design should be a lot more resistant to stupid dings and expensive fixes.

Re:Definitely a known problem--hence the redesign

[jasonbowen]

It could be argued that a redesign is an admission of a previously flawed design?

Re:Definitely a known problem--hence the redesign

[shmlco]

Or the result of a new manufacturing process that wasn't commercially available or viable when the original was designed.

Re:Definitely a known problem--hence the redesign

[Free the Cowards]

Only in that every single thing, ever, is flawed.

Re:Definitely a known problem--hence the redesign

[dangitman]

Because every other manufacturer makes their laptops by milling a billet of aluminum?

Re:But all glossy...

[douthat]

It gets worse: The adapter capable of running the 30" display is $99, not $30.

The $30 adapter is only capable of running 1920x1200

http://store.apple.com/us/search?find=displayport

Re:But all glossy...

[ProfessionalCookie]

I like speech and I like beer but if I gotta choose, it's gonna be speech. Bring on the DisplayPort.

Re:But all glossy...

[aliquis]

So don't get a branded one.

Re:Want!

[Ash-Fox]

Unless you have ideological reasons for preferring Linux to Mac OS X why would you care if Linux runs on it or not?

Off the top of my head:

• Proper GNU environment (not broken like fink, macports etc)
• non-broken OpenGL system
• better scheduler
• better file systems
• superior software management systems
• no broken packages (such as the ones provided by stuff like finf).

OS X is Unix

XNU (OS X's kernel) is not Unix, GNU is not Unix. It's not about Unix (even though the BSD subsystem is so broken on OS X, it can't even handle things like signaling properly - By the way, the Windows' POSIX subsystem handles all 'Unix' tasks properly, so you're just ending up promoting Windows instead with that argument).

and will run all the same software Linux will run.

OS X doesn't even support elf executables, which is the native binary format on Linux. Most FOSS stuff like GTK is terribly broken on OS X, please just stop making up this rubbish already.

Re:Want!

[ceoyoyo]

I've had a few, going back to the days when they were made out of titanium. One of them hiked across Europe with me in an expedition backpack.

I put little dents in them, particularly at the joins between pieces (which the new design should nearly eliminate) but not showstoppers like that other guy.

Re:Want!

[EastCoastSurfer]

So anyway, in all that time I have never once dropped a laptop.

I agree. The only time I've come close to 'dropping' a laptop was when I tripped over the power cord of an old Dell. All the macs have the magnetic cord which pretty much means tripping over it has been eliminated.

Re:Thinkpad

[harpune]

Gratuitously OT, but is this the general consensus about Thinkpads? I haven't owned one in a few years, but I always appreciated their build quality. I'd hate to hear that they've lost that.

Re:Want!

[dangitman]

Why would being a Linux user have anything to do with your choice of hardware? You do realize you can run Linux on a Mac, don't you?

Wrong, it is brighter

[SuperKendall]

As to it appearing "brighter" - law of conservation of energy would seem to make that impossible. The same ammount of light coming from one will be the same as the ammount coming from another.

Except that the matte screens achieve the matte effect by placing a coating over the glossy surface that reduces light transmission.

I totally agree with the original poster. I originally bought a matte Macbook Pro as I do a lot of photography and had heard it was better. That died and I had to get an emergency replacement for a trip, the only option from the local store was glossy - and after the trip I realized I liked it so much more, I traded in. it was brighter (I was after all using the exact same Macbook Pro, just with a glossy screen instead of a matte - no LED lighting at the time) and I could see it easier working outdoors during the day.

You can add an anti-glare screen over a laptop screen if you must, but you can't take away a matte coating.

It's not like matte screens do not have glare too, they just have less. If glare is so crucial or bothersome then get a hood (which is what photographers do if they want to do any serious color work on a laptop, matte or no).

Re:Wrong, it is brighter

[MBGMorden]

Except that the matte screens achieve the matte effect by placing a coating over the glossy surface that reduces light transmission.

That may have been true on CRT screens, but a TFT/LCD screen's "native" state is matte. CRT's only had a glare/gloss problem because their screens were GLASS. LCD's don't have glass screens. For them it's actually the glossy ones that need a coating to achieve that effect.

Having worked with both (heck I still own displays of both types), I'm not at all convinced that the glossy being "brighter" is anything other than a psychological phenomenon. Either that or you're just having to crank the actual brightness higher to compensate for the glare (as suggested in the article). In those cases the original matte screen could be just as bright if you wanted - you just didn't feel a need to crank it any higher.

Anti-glare filters are essentially a waste. Why waste money,space, and time resolving a problem that was already solved when we switched from CRT's to LCDs? Not to mention an anti-glare filter still has WAY more glare than a matte LCD screen because those were designed to solve the glare problem on CRT's. Hood is equally a waste. I'm not a professional photographer or anything. Color accuracy is not the issue - I'm a programmer so as long as Emacs source highlighting is good enough that I'm fine with the colors. I am however very opposed to trying to focus on what I'm doing while also seeing a reflection of my own face or the giant glare of a lamp on my screen.

Essentially, in my mind the glossy LCD screen is the epitome of form over function. They look more fashionable at a glance (hell that's why I originally bought mine, though I didn't originally know how bad it would be), and a lot of people will do anything to justify looking chic, even if that means putting up with a lot of annoying stuff. And of course the entire "hip" crowd is completely the market Apple targets, and hence - the fashionable, annoying, glossy screens.

Re:Wrong, it is brighter

[SuperKendall]

Having worked with both (heck I still own displays of both types), I'm not at all convinced that the glossy being "brighter" is anything other than a psychological phenomenon. Either that or you're just having to crank the actual brightness higher to compensate for the glare (as suggested in the article). In those cases the original matte screen could be just as bright if you wanted - you just didn't feel a need to crank it any higher.

I had the matte screen as high as it would go, all the time. I don't always have the glossy screen at maximum. I too worked on both, and I'm telling you that the glossy screen is notably brighter.

The physics of the situation demand it. Matte screens have to reduce some transmission through the screen (regardless of the construction), or they are not matte.

Essentially, in my mind the glossy LCD screen is the epitome of form over function.

And I see the whining about matte screens as exactly the same thing - preferring the "cool" matte screens over the more functional brighter glossy screens. I was able to use both, and chose the Glossy as more practical for working in bright lighting conditions (like outdoors).

Re:Wrong, it is brighter

[node 3]

That may have been true on CRT screens, but a TFT/LCD screen's "native" state is matte.

You're wrong. LCDs have no 'native' state. It's the outer surface material that determines whether the display is matte or glossy. Glossy surfaces can transmit the light from an LCD with extremely minimal quality reduction. Matte surfaces, by their very definition degrade the fidelity of the light coming through. This is absolutely no different than placing a roughened plastic sheet atop a glossy LCD, because that's exactly what makes a matte LCD a matte LCD.

That's what makes all these so-called "pro" photographers who are bitching about glossy displays so abysmally misguided.

Re:Incorrect. Macs can boot from USB

[ceoyoyo]

He said target mode. That's where your Mac pretends it's an external hard drive. It's really handy in some circumstances, particularly when you get a new computer. Just wire the two of them together, click go and let them talk for a couple hours. Bang - your new computer is a clone of your old one.

Brave words Mr. Anonymous...

[denzacar]

And having used one for the past year, the glare issue is really a red herring. I don't notice it. In fact I find the glossy screens more usable in sunlight conditions since they appear brighter than the matte. I actually find it really hard to believe your statement, "every end user I support hates the things" based on my experience. It's really hard to fathom that anyone who has actually used a glossy display for any serious amount of time wouldn't prefer it to a matte display.

Brave words Mr. Anonymous...

 
Every user I know hates glossy or has at best learned to cope with it.
Its kinda like having a disabled person in the family - you can't just get rid of them or replace them with a new model, you must learn how to live with their disability.
So, just as you would start learning sign language if someone in your family was deaf, you pick up some other skills.

You learn to sit away from windows or sources of light, you start wearing darker colors, you learn to precisely tilt the laptop with only your knees while watching video and scenes change rapidly, you gain greater sense of personal appearance from staring at yourself the whole time, you become more aware of your surroundings cause now you can see what is BEHIND you while you work...

While many of those skills would be very useful to a prospective assassin/spy - most common users find it kind of a burden.

You're about two years behind the times

[SuperKendall]

No serious colorimetric work is yet being done with LCDs

Well I'm a Very Serious Photographer With Color Managed Systems, and I can tell you you're full of hooey.

There are a number of Serious LCD monitors now, some with advanced features like wide gamuts, and good enough viewing angles so that you can move side to side within at least the range of the monitor and see no shift.

What you said might have been true about two years ago, but the industry has moved well beyond all Serious work being done on CRT's these days.

Re:You're about two years behind the times

[shmlco]

If you need the level of quality offered by a Serious LCD monitor, then NO notebook screen is going to match up, glossy, matte, or otherwise.

Re:You're about two years behind the times

[SuperKendall]

If you need the level of quality offered by a Serious LCD monitor, then NO notebook screen is going to match up, glossy, matte, or otherwise.

Nice dodge, my point was that color critical work is being done on LCD's today.

My other point would be that pretty much all laptops now can hook to a second monitor...

Re:You're about two years behind the times

[pz]

No serious colorimetric work is yet being done with LCDs

Well I'm a Very Serious Photographer With Color Managed Systems, and I can tell you you're full of hooey.

There are a number of Serious LCD monitors now, some with advanced features like wide gamuts, and good enough viewing angles so that you can move side to side within at least the range of the monitor and see no shift.

What you said might have been true about two years ago, but the industry has moved well beyond all Serious work being done on CRT's these days.

Thanks for the pointer. I'll definitely look them up.

I have yet, however, to see a scientific paper that uses LCDs to map the early visual system, where being precise about color uniformity is hugely important -- but that does not mean it hasn't been done. The visual neuroscientists who do color work whom I'm familiar with are all using CRTs or, now that I think of it, DLP based projectors. No LCDs. Maybe that will change.

LCDs have one tremendous advantage from the visual neuroscience perspective: stable light output when viewed at short time scales (except the newer displays that use pulsing backlights ... what a stupid idea). The light output from a CRT flickers no matter how fast the refresh rate; the visual system responds at up to about 135 Hz, even though you aren't strongly aware of it above about 80 Hz or so (it depends hugely on individual, viewing conditions, contrast of the image, etc.). With an LCD with a constant backlight, the light output from any given pixel is more-or-less step shaped, changing at update, rather than impulse shaped like from a CRT. This is why a 60 Hz refresh rate on an LCD looks stable as a rock, but 60 Hz on a CRT drives most people crazy. I'd love to be able to use a 75 Hz refresh rate LCD in my experiments rather than a 180 Hz refresh CRT. Will definitely look up the EIZO monitors!

Re:But all glossy...

[discord5]

Because speech != beer?

...and yet for me at parties, beer = speech.

We have quite a mathematical conundrum on our hands.

For sufficient quantities of beer this equality you mention becomes ambiguous. If only we had a way to statistically model this phenomenon...

Re:But all glossy...

[Jarik C-Bol]

*cough* 1920x1200 pixels should be more than enough for anyone....

Re:But all glossy...

[Yvan256]

Wow, I didn't know Ladas doubled in value recently.

I think so - here's why

[snowwrestler]

See my earlier post

Mighty Mouse maintenance

[Savage-Rabbit]

I used one for about a week before I gave up on it, gave it to my wife, and went out and bought a $10 Logitech mouse which has worked perfectly ever since. The thing simply would not register right clicks when I wanted it to. Maybe it would if I kept using it. But honestly, spending weeks training my hand to use this mouse is not worth it compared to spending $10 on one that works properly from the start.

As for scrolling, one dimension is superior to zero dimensions, which is what my Mighty Mouse ended up having after a few months of use by my wife. When the scroll clit gets dirty it ceases to function, and the thing appears to be impervious to all known cleaning methods. So now the Mighty Mouse sits in a drawer and she uses a $10 USB scroll wheel mouse.

Like somebody pointed out you have to lift your left finger when doing a right click with the Mighty Mouse I do this instinctively but I can see how it would be irritating to somebody who doesn't. One has to marvel at what lengths Steve Jobs is willing to go to provide two button functionality without having to admit that his idea for a one button mouse simply sucked. That being said early Bluetooth Mighty Mice had problems with the button sensors. My first BT Mighty mouse had to be switched off and on each time the my MBP woke from sleep-mode because right clicking ceased working. Eventually some moron stole that mouse and against my better judgement I actually went and bought a second BT Mighty Mouse which has worked perfectly so far. I agree that the form factor of the Mighty Mouse not especially comfortable but it does make it easier to stow in a hardpack. I actually used to have a Logitech wireless mouse which I dumped because once in a while it would cause a kernel panic when I unplugged the USB dongle and because the because the trackball on the Mighty Mouse is quite frankly superior to Logitec's tilting scroll wheel.

It is quite easy to clean the Mighty Mouse's trackball, it is no more complicated than it was is clean old style mice that use rubber spheres rather than diodes to detect motion. Wash your hands thoroughly. Then mix a small amount of mildly soapy water, apply it sparingly to the Mighty Mouse's trackball using your finger and scroll the trackball about for a while. Then take a lint free cloth, turn the Mighty Mouse upside down and brush the cloth over the trackball until it is dry. This usually works for my tired old BT Mighty Mouse. It helps to repeat this at regular intervals every 4-6 weeks or so to prevent to much dirt from building up. To get rid of dust and grime that collects inside the trackball chamber simply turn the Mighty Mouse up-side-down and quickly brush your finger over the trackball for a few seconds.

Re:Mighty Mouse maintenance

[Free the Cowards]

I generally dislike applying water to my electronics. The idea that I'd have to do it once every month forever just to keep this hunk of junk working is absurd. My Mighty Mouse's replacement has gone for well over a year without needing any cleaning, and I fully expect it to go many more years without it.

Also I have to say, I never needed soap and water to clean out old-style rubber ball mice.

Re:But all glossy...

[discord5]

NOW the wikipedia article states that the Mini DisplayPort is a bi-product of Kraft Velveeta cheese.

That's funny, only a minute ago it said that the Mini DisplayPort was a product of one of Jobs orifices. It seemed a bit odd to produce a correct video connector for that, although slightly less odd than Velveeta cheese.

I'm a sysadmin in a design agency

[theolein]

Where I work we have 45 Macs. Of those 35 people have now switched to plain jane Logitech LX optical mice because the Apple mouse is so spectacularly bad. People get wrist cramps having permanently hold the left finger away when right clicking, the shape of the mouse is painful for many of them over time, and to top it all, the little scroll ball invariably gunks up with finger sweat and dirt after a while and you can only clean it so many times before the ball wears away and no longer maintains contact to the little slide wheels inside the mouse.

The Apple mouse is a terrible product, and its bluetooth pendant is even worse. the battery life is so bad that most people who have ehm and use them every day have to replace the batteries about once a month. I switched long ago to a Logitech LX-7 wireless which has used the same set of batteries for about 8 months.

I like Apple's products, and even own a Mac Pro tower myself, but I get really tired of people praising every thing Apple does simply because it's Apple.

Re:Thinkpad

[16K Ram Pack]

I think there might be like a "bottom end" range now (or is that desktops) but yes... Thinkpads are like the Land Rovers of the laptop world IMO - they may not be too pretty, but they just keep going.

Re:Want!

[jasonbowen]

I have a picture of it: http://www.blemishedapple.com/

Re:But all glossy...

[Anonymous Coward]

Gee its funny that they keep changing the "mini" display adapter for every laptop.

mini-vga - ibook
mini-dvi - macbook (previous generations)
micro-dvi - macbook air
mini-displayport - current generation macbook and macbook pro

Now the adapters that I bought for previous laptops are incompatible with the new one. To get basic connectivity you have to buy both the vga and dvi adapters (since the dvi is missing a pin it cannot work with additional DVI-to-VGA adapters). Why do I need to spend $60 extra for every laptop, merely cause Apple cannot even standarize on its own adapters?

Re:Want!

[jasonbowen]

I'm marked redundant if I bring the story up again so just read my many posts. I know you can buy the lower pan for approximately $200 online but those are all used parts, you can't find new ones.

Re:Uneven coverage?

[syousef]

You need to get over the fact that Apple, just like Linux, or Google will get a special treatment on Slashdot. These are products/brands that the typical slashdot reader are interested in.

In my experience brand loyal drones aren't typical - they're just more vocal, more obnoxious, and more willing to blatantly abuse their mod points. The Apple fans seem to be the most vocal and willing to make arguments that fly in the face of reality. Google supporters I just plain don't understand - Google does a pretty good web search engine and has bought usenet and mail services, but they don't do much else well. (Chrome is a joke for example!). Linux zealots just have all their brain power devoted to the technical so their social skills are on par with those of an anti-social 8 year old.

More importantly, goodbye FIREWIRE on the MB.

[StarKruzr]

How the hell does this make any sense?

The whole POINT of Macs has been, in part, to enable Average Joe to do digital content creation. To let ordinary people do extraordinary things, with pictures, video, music, etc. Now you take the best-selling Mac ever and remove its ability to import video?

What the hell are they thinking?

Re:More importantly, goodbye FIREWIRE on the MB.

[Kalriath]

Uh, did you even read the subject of the comment you're replying to? It specifically says "goodbye FIREWIRE". So how does a camcorder supporting Firewire help you when they computer DOESN'T?

Re:More importantly, goodbye FIREWIRE on the MB.

[ToasterMonkey]

Have you been paying attention to the direction Average Joe video cameras are going? DVD and HD(disk), not MiniDV tape. Firewire only has a real advantage with tape. Average Joe, knowing he doesn't have a firewire port (or rather not knowing they they exist) is not going to have ANY trouble picking up a good video camera with USB, which is the vast majority of Average Joe video cameras now.

Some Average Joes with Macs that have Firewire might have bought DV cameras in spite of the salesman's good advice that Average Joes usually don't need frame-by-frame editing or slow 1-1 import/film time ratio - yawn. I suspect these people will keep on using the same machine they had in mind when they bought the Firewire camera - IF they even use the camera anymore, because the salesman was right - importing DV tape is stupidly slow for casual usage and I^Hhe certainly didn't need the extra editing finesse.

I agree with you as far as where you think the Average Joe REALLY needs a DV camera as opposed to HD or DVD to "do extraordinary things, with pictures, video, music, etc." I doubt there are all that many prosumer digital content creators that require both MiniDV and a cheap laptop to do video editing.

If iMacs lose FW soon, then you might have something.

Re:$999 laptop only 1gb of ram? at least it is ddr

[petermgreen]

I checked my macbooks warranty and I didn't see anything in there about upgrades voiding it though obviously the upgrade components won't be covered.

They even included instructions for changing the ram in the user manual!

note: beware that the hard drive replacement instructions on apples site are incomplete, they tell you how to get the caddy out of the mac, what they don't tell you is that you need a small torx driver to get thr drive off the caddy.

External frame

[shmlco]

If you've seen the event then you may have seen the part where Ives mentioned that the thin aluminum shell in the old MBP is largely cosmetic, with most of the structure and stability coming from an internal frame.

The new MBP, OTOH, gets its strength from an external one-piece "uni-body" frame that's machined from a single slab of aluminum. I suspect that it will take a lot more abuse than its predecessor.

That said, I still prefer the fit and finish of aluminum over most of the plastic crap everyone else makes. You may have put a dent or two in yours, but a friend just had a plastic POS Sony snapped in half when someone leaned against her backpack.

Re:But all glossy...

[ChrisA90278]

..if you buy the $30 adapter for it..

NO. It seems Apple's now 24" monitor has a matching mini size connector. No adapor needed if you buy the two together.

Someone asked Jobs "why not HDMI". Answer was that the HDMI ca't drive the 30" display. Turns out HDMI was only designed with TV in mind and big computer monitors have much higher resolution than TVs

Yes, glossy is not good at all if you are a pro photographer or a graphic artist working with print media. But Apple sees the numbers: There are more people who use the computer as an entertainment console than there are graphic professionals. They want to sell to the larger numbers

Re:Glossy only? Agreed!

[AbRASiON]

Rubbish just rubbish, it seems to me the 'pro glossy' crowd are convinced that the 'matte crowd' are a bunch of stuck up photo editing nitwits who should be photo editing on a desktop anyhow.

To that I respond that *I* and *EVERYONE* I know are regular users and every single one of them who have encountered a glossy display have also had precisely the same complaints I have, I DO NOT want to see myself in my damn screen constantly.

Perhaps you and others use consistently white web pages or applications all day but some of us actually look at dark web pages, dark movies or tv shows, terminal windows and don't need to see ourselves or do our makeup.

Re:Glossy only? Agreed!

[vought]

The only people I really hear throwing huge fits about this are the self-proclaimed "pro photography" set

I work with several professional photographers as a consultant. I can assure you that glossy displays DO NOT work as well subjectively for most photographers and other artists using LCD displays. Some photographers still insist on using CRTs because of those subjective preferences.

You can bake the numbers all you want, but if the palette and contrast don't feel right for photographers - many of which started using Photoshop to work with Tango-scanned film images - they will not touch it. Consistency, not gimmicks, are key for these folks.

These are not gear queers running out to compare the specs on the newest whoosy-whatsit, but artists who are extremely picky about their equipment. Here's what they tell me they HATE about glossy displays:

-Extreme brightness on glossy displays = extreme contrast. It's harder to believe you're looking at a calibrated 2.2 gamma when your "superbrite" glossy LCD display has such a massive contrast ratio.

-Working in neutrally-painted, darkened rooms is optimal. When you turn these superbright LCDs down to achieve a reasonable brightness for a darkened room, the glare and reflections from the glossy panel are distracting. Turn it back up, and it takes you several seconds to a minute to see where you're going.

-The higher brightness leads to colors looking more saturated, which sells with consumers. Most pros I talk to HATE it. Photographers who rely on a muted palette and who work in color managed workflows can't tell what's going to roll out of their printer with displays like the iMac's glossy LED display - the colors seem too contrasty and saturated, so everything gets dialled down too far.

That's my experience. Pros hate these damned displays.

Not the great show some expected

[GrahamCox]

A bit low-key for one of these events. Steve seemed to expect woots and clapping at a few places that never came. Jonny Ive looked uncomfortable and a bit nervous and wearing a jacket three sizes too small; the other guy was a dull speaker. The hall was only half full and overall it was a pretty slow event.

On the other hand, the faster graphics chipsets are a relief - I'm developing some software that needs every ounce of GPU performance it can give!

Nope

[MisterSquid]

Target disk mode is *not* possible over USB. You can boot modern Macs from USB drives, but this is not target disk mode.

Target disk mode is when you turn the entire computer into an enclosure for a hard drive with Firewire as the interface. Not possible at present using USB.

Re:Smart people.

[rtechie]

No, they're not. As long as they're reaching their sales goals, their price is less than or equal to what it could be. For having such a high opinion of yourself and your financial habits, you suck at economics.

You cut out the relevant part of his post:

Their service isn't worth the premium.

Exactly right. My experiences with Apple product support have been no better than the product support from other major laptop manufacturers, and notably worse than IBM (I think Lenovo has inferior support) and Alienware.

Sales figures are not normally used as measure of product value. If that were true then Budweiser would be the best beer ever and Baywatch the best TV show ever produced.

Re:But all glossy...

[rtechie]

Um, what? We've bought laptops from Lenovo, Toshiba, and HP recently and most of those have HDMI ports and the ones that don't have DVI. Those are the biggest laptop sellers in North America, so I don't know what you're smoking. HDMI ports are common on desktop video cards as well, though many manufacturers are just shipping DVI to HDMI converters in the box (it's the exact same protocol, just different connectors).

Re:Want!

[Macka]

Well that shouldn't happen to the new ones. Being crafted from a solid block of Al should make it loads stronger.

Personaly I find it very hard to swallow that a fall of 3" onto a padded carpet could do that kind of damage. Though I won't be testing mine out to prove you wrong.

Lots of fixed positions besides desks.

[weston]

If you're computing from a fixed seating position you're probably sitting at a desk.

If you're sitting at a desk, it might be your desk, at which you could do all of those things, but it might not. It might be at the office you're visiting.

It might not be a desk. It might be a seat on a plane or train, sunlight coming in from a nearby window you don't control (and boy, if there's any setting in which you have almost no room to maneuver, it's on a plane in coach. And yet the Mac Book Air? Glossy only from day one.)

It might be the one of a small set of seats available to you at a conference room, or a lecture hall.

It might be a park bench, it might be on the couch in the living room facing the TV where you're sitting to be with your SO or family while they're watching it, and you're trying to work, but the sunset through the window behind the couch is causing a problem.

If you bought a laptop, the whole point is that you'd like to be able to move it around and use it anywhere. The constraints arbitrarily added by the glare off a glossy screen make it more difficult.

Re:Glossy only? Agreed!

[lucas teh geek]

Consider it your warning that you need to change your surroundings before continuing your work ... not a reason to get a different display.

and here I was thinking people bought laptops so they could work anywhere they wanted

Jobs is on the way out

[GBC]

I think the most interesting thing to come out of this is what wasn't explicitly said. Jobs does not look like he is in good shape at the moment. He also made a point of having others within the company help him present. I think he is going to be giving up full-time work at Apple (whether voluntarily or not) sooner rather than later and he is now trying to present the company as being more than a one-man band. Whether or not investors believe that however is another matter.

Re:Smart people.

[Just Some Guy]

Their service is worth exactly what people are willing to pay for it. Since their current business model is working, they have set their prices correctly.

Sales figures are not normally used as measure of product value. If that were true then Budweiser would be the best beer ever and Baywatch the best TV show ever produced.

No one ever said otherwise. Their sales figures are only relevant within the context of their own organization. Apple is moving merchandise in line with their goals, which means that their estimate of their product's value (as measured by MSRP) is in line with what the market thinks.

Better analogies would be to Guinness and "Dexter", premium brands that people pay extra to enjoy. You can't say that those are overpriced as long as the desired number people continue to pay for them.

Re:But all glossy...

[Jorophose]

HDMI is found on the "780G" and other "G" motherboard chipsets by AMD. However, I don't think the nVidia 8200 does... (anyone know if these boards are any good? quite cheap and unified sb/nb...) Neither do the "V" chipsets, that are the "G" chipsets sans HDMI, and maybe a bit slower (but I doubt it; it's just that before it was Xpress 1250 and Xpress 1200)...

DisplayPort looks very nice. Now if only all monitor vendors started supporting it.

Re:HDMI DisplayPort

[fartrader]

HDMI has limited resolution compared to DisplayPort making it the inferior spec.

This is a VHS/Betamax argument - its irrelevant what the spec is or does - its what the market dictates...and its strongly hinting HDMI with a baseball bat.

Re:Want!

[jasonbowen]

I find it hard to swallow as well, hence my anger.

Re:Glossy only? Agreed!

[Anonymous Coward]

Glossy screens are just not acceptable for the calibration and perception standards

Oh, come on. You seriously maintain that you cannot calibrate the color output of a glossy display? Do you even know what the only physical difference between the two is?

Let me inform you, since you probably do not. There is literally no difference in any of the elements which significantly affect the spectrum of the emitted light. In a LCD display, those would be the backlight, the LCD subpixel intensity filters, and the color filter. All these components are 100% identical between a glossy and non glossy display. The one and only different component is that a matte display has a surface roughening treatment (or coating) on the outermost glass layer to provide some scattering.

Scattering does two things, one desirable and one undesirable. The desirable part is that it greatly reduces the intensity of reflections of other things in a room (especially light sources). It's hard to see a reflected image when the light is reflected in a ton of different directions by the rough surface.

The undesirable part is that it does the same thing to the image being displayed. And that's why people like glossy displays: the colors can be much more saturated (matte displays have a bit of a whiteout effect) and the display is brighter given identical backlights (scattering sends a lot of the light output off in random directions).

Re:Want!

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

It should be noted that, while unsexy, good plastics can actually be more durable than aluminum for laptop purposes. Plastic will crack, if you abuse it; but it doesn't dent the way aluminum does. At least back in the powerbook/ibook days, the ibooks were in some respects more durable, though they did tend to get scuffed up over time.

Display port

[Jorophose]

DisplayPort is certainly not a typical shitty connector.

I hope to see one day nothing but DisplayPort; royalty-free, IIRC it's a fairly open design, and I'm not too sure if it has optional DRM (as it might be the deciding factor over HDMI). The fact that it's very capable is also good, as is the fact that it can go out to all formats (VGA/HDMI/DVI); although DVI can do that it's not royalty-free and this is closer to HDMI because I think it can even carry audio.

Re:Display port

[Midnight Thunder]

see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DisplayPort

"Newly featured in version 1.1 is the support of HDCP content protection and support for fiber optic cables as an alternative to copper, allowing a much longer reach between source and display without image degradation"

Re:Uneven coverage?

[mdwh2]

Agreed. And not just everytime there's a new model, but also everytime there's a rumour about something new, as has been the case with recent stories. We should be glad that for once, at least there's a story based on fact here ;) But yes, it's a slashvertisement.

Re:First post? Maybe people are afraid they patent

[davidsyes]

or try to patent the process of water-blasting a block of aluminum...

"10:14 PT: "We discovered that if we started with a thick piece of aluminium and removed material to make physical features in the structure, we could make a much lighter but much stronger part. So that's how we make the palm rest of the MacBook air." He shows an image of an aluminum extrusion to show how the put it together. They create the "locating features," holes in the metal. Then rough cutting, a "noisy stage" where they remove large amounts of material quickly. Remove holes for key caps, and the trackpad. Then they blast it and anodize it."

I hope not, because watersaws and water blasters have been around for a LONG time. Applying that to make a laptop chassis is NOT innovative, novel, nor non-obvious. It's just a matter of marketing, snazziness, and money. Diving bells, diving suits, aircraft parts, and military vehicle parts as well as various medical and other types of instruments all can be made from parts cut, shaped or formed by water jets which can be much sharper in effect than using diamond saws or diamond-tipped drill bits.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/question553.htm

However, i wonder exactly how they will recycle the stamped/water-blasted parts punched out for keys and the trackpad and hinge area. If they are a "green company" they should publicly account for how it's being recaptured for recycling.

Re:Smart people.

[dosun88888]

If the $2k you save every few years by not using a mac made any noticeable impact on your net worth, you don't have enough money to be playing the "laughing all the way to the bank" card.

Re:Uneven coverage?

[mdwh2]

You need to get over the fact that Apple, just like Linux, or Google will get a special treatment on Slashdot. These are products/brands that the typical slashdot reader are interested in.

I suspect that there are many who prefer Windows or use it as their main OS. I'm not sure if there have been more recent polls, but in 2002, Windows usage was 47%, beating all other platforms. Whilst that may or may not have fallen, I'd be willing to bet it's still no. 1, and I find it highly unlikely it's been relegated to a niche interest.

Earlier this year, only 32% (36% if we include the "other" option) say they don't use Windows.

Like it or not, Windows PCs are a mainstream interest just as much as stories for any other platform.

As the other comment stated, "number of comments" is not a poor metric - especially as my post is counting towards that! And how do we know how many comments other articles will get, if they don't get posted?

I also note that the only article currently beating this article in terms of number of comments on the front page at the moment is "Windows 7 To Be Called ... Windows 7". It's tagged "!newsworthy" and "whocares", but according to you, at over 100 more comments than this story, it ought to be the most newsworthy story of the day, right?

Re:Want!

[Whiney Mac Fanboy]

Well that shouldn't happen to the new ones

Yeah - he should totally buy a new apple product! That will solve all his problems!

Re:Want!

[Apotsy]

XNU (OS X's kernel) is not Unix

According to this, it is.

I just want OSX ala carte

[Detaer]

It would be nice if OSX was sold and supported as a product separate from their hardware. I am using a macbook right now, the hardware is adaquate but the operating system is the reason I bought it. If apple had a hardware logo certification ala novel, a logo cert that actually meant something I would be more likely to continue using osx as my primary operating system on non apple hardware. Apple hardware has almost completely lost its draw for me. The RMA process is slow and clunky, their corporate hardware support is abysmal and their hardware has one of the highest failure rates (second only to sony vaio laptops) I have ever experienced. Hardly what I would consider worth the premium. On top of that there is the mousing options. For that much money I would expect to have a hardware interface that is intuitive. Removing all mouse buttons from the laptop is the exact opposite direction I was hoping they would take. So far I am unimpressed with this hardware revision. I hope the next iteration of OSX becomes a bigger selling point because the look and feel of the hardware is nowhere near worth the price.

Re:But all glossy...

[icknay]

I work at a university and a corp, and literally every projector is set up with vga input which is ancient but effective. I predict that for the next few years, you will be seated at some presentation, and then the presenter will realize they forgot the dongle and the presentation will be delayed as people run around looking for the adapter. At that moment, the thought will pass through your mind THANK YOU STEVE JOBS FOR SCREWING UP YET ANOTHER PRESENTATION! It'll be hilarious the first 5 or 10 times.

I don't understand why they just don't build a vga connector on there. That would be so much more valuable to me than being a little slimmer or sleeker or whatever. The little dongle, which you mostly don't need, but in rare cases you do ... well of course that's just the sort of thing you're going to forget sometimes. What a user-hostile design.

Re:But all glossy...

[plazman30]

We just had an HP rep come in and show us the whole line of new laptops last week, and NONE of them have HDMI. They all HAD DVI or VGA and are now all going to have Display Port connectors.

Re:But all glossy...

[plazman30]

TVs definitely have HDMI. You can't do 1080p without it. But PC makers are moving away from it as a standard and switching to Display Port instead.

Re:But all glossy...

[gb506]

Something tells me that folks in the market to buy BOTH a Macbook Pro AND a 30" display are not going to bitch, moan, and stomp their feet when forced to buy a $100 adapter.

Black border is ugly

[wfolta]

I agree, the black border contrasts with the aluminum body in a way that makes me think "Dell". I don't like the look at all.

Re:But all glossy...

[friedmud]

BTW: This has been the case for Mac laptops (especially the Macbooks) for the last few years... they have all had mini-DVI ports on them that needed a dongle to output VGA.

Even the Macbook Pro only had a DVI port on it and needed a dongle to output VGA (which it came with).

My whole group at work uses nothing but Mac Laptops... it is pretty funny when someone forgets their dongle... but there's always someone around that has one (I carry two actually, just in case I leave one somewhere while on a business trip).

Anyway... my point is that this isn't a new situation...

Friedmud

umm how about your full of shit?

[falcon5768]

Memory and Hard Drive replacements on the Macbook do NOT void your warrantee. Its user replaceable from the battery port.

Re:Want!

[arminw]

...There's plenty of Linux software that won't run on OS X and vice versa...

Oh really? Care to name some? On the other hand there is plenty of hardware, such as scanners and printers that will not work with Linux.

Re:But all glossy...

[flewp]

I don't know about that. Another way to look at it is if one is going to be paying those kind of prices, there should be no need for such an adapter at additional cost.

Re:Smart people.

[arminw]

....My experiences with Apple product support have been no better than the product support from other major laptop manufacturers....

Apparently Consumer Reports does NOT agree with you on that. They pegged Apple at the top of the heap for service and quality. Their opinion may still only be an opinion, but it is worth more to most people than your opinion on the matter.

Brick -- Better for the environment?

[srothroc]

It struck me as odd that he talks about how some things are better for the environment, but one of the much-lauded advances is the "Brick" process, which, as Ars puts it, is a "manufacturing process that starts with a 2.5 pound slab of aluminum that is then whittled down to a . . . quarter of a pound."

Does this seem incredibly wasteful to anyone else?

Re:Brick -- Better for the environment?

[ToasterMonkey]

Do you really think two and a quarter pounds of aluminum per unit is just sent to a landfill?

Haven't you ever noticed how machined parts usually have non-functional holes punched through, or niches carved out of the backsides? It wasn't just to build a bigger garbage heap out back. They would never waste the effort and wear on the machinery if they weren't reclaiming every last scrap they cut out.

Re:Brick -- Better for the environment?

[daybot]

Does this seem incredibly wasteful to anyone else?

They recycle the swarf... although this does require melting it down and turning it into slabs again. This is all discussed in the Keynote speech.

Re:But all glossy...

[actionbastard]

"There are more people who use the computer as an entertainment console..."

Yes, I have to admit, pr0n does look better on a Mac...

Re:Smart people.

[Eskarel]

Economically, apple's products are not overpriced.

They are not overpriced because there are a lot of idiots out there who think that shiny is good, and that, despite the fact that apple uses the exact same parts as everyone else that they're better hardware.

Some people would by a turd for $2000 if Steve Jobs sold it to them.

That doesn't mean that apple's products aren't overvalued, which is distinct from being overpriced, but is what I believe was the orignal intent.

The only basic difference between an Apple laptop and a laptop from a competitor is the appearance/case, their support, and OSX.

Now some people might argue that those differences are worth the price point difference between a Macbook and an equivilent laptop from a competing manufacturer, and apparently enough people believe that this is the case that apple is able to make a rather healthy profit every year(though I'm not certain how much of that comes from laptops).

The GGP however appears to be arguing that, at least from his perspective, that valuation is incorrect.

Personally I tend to agree with this assessment, as from my experience Macbook cases aren't any more solid than anyone elses(and less so than laptops specifically designed to be rugged), the experiene of some of my friends with apple support, as well as extensive experience with Dell support have led me to believe that the whole lot of them are a bunch of wankers, and while OSX is quite nice, if they sold an unbundled version for the price difference between macs and their competitors there'd be slashdot vitriol up to the ceiling.

YMMV, and it certainly doesn't hurt Apple that most other laptop manufacturers can't put together a halfway decent product either, nor does it hurt that laptops are quite often more of a status symbol than a utility item and so prettiness counts.

That doesn't change the fact that while apple can quite obviously sell their laptops for the price they sell them at and so are probably not stupid for doing so(you'd have to see their projections for profits at lower per item profits and higher volume), the people who are willing to pay that might possibly be a tiny bit foolish.

Re:Chicklet Keyboards SUCK

[dangitman]

Uhhh, the Macbook keyboard is NOT a "chicklet" keyboard. It uses springed switches, just like any other modern keyboard.

Re:Glossy only? Agreed!

[drmerope]

"Pros" hate them because of poor information spread around arts schools and forums. Lets take a point-by-point:

Extreme brightness on glossy displays = extreme contrast. It's harder to believe you're looking at a calibrated 2.2 gamma when your "superbrite" glossy LCD display has such a massive contrast ratio.

Contrast has nothing what so ever do with gamma. A CRT has a contrast ratio in the 10000-100000:1 range.

Working in neutrally-painted, darkened rooms is optimal. When you turn these superbright LCDs down to achieve a reasonable brightness for a darkened room, the glare and reflections from the glossy panel are distracting. Turn it back up, and it takes you several seconds to a minute to see where you're going.

Glossy LCDs use coatings which originated with CRTs. Its the same technology evolved. A CRT and a glossy LCD have similar glare properties. If you clients are having glare problems, they need to be using a hood.

The higher brightness leads to colors looking more saturated, which sells with consumers.

Glossy screens are not any brighter than matte. Their contrast comes from having a better black-level, i.e., less diffuse glare from the environment. "Color saturation" is how much "white" is mixed into color. Matte screens have worse saturation because they mix in (diffuse) more environmental "white" light.

Photographers who rely on a muted palette and who work in color managed workflows can't tell what's going to roll out of their printer with displays like the iMac's glossy LED display - the colors seem too contrasty and saturated, so everything gets dialled down too far.

This point is the closest to being right. Glossy screens have a more different color-space relative to CYMK ink processes than matte screens. But any good software, such as photoshop, has the ability to highlight gamut errors. The remaining trouble is that the in gmaut color-space is compressed because the display's color-space is larger.

The real problem is that 8b/color channel is not enough for modern wide-gamut displays such those you can make using LED backlights and glossy anti-glare coatings. Photographers near universal failure to understand the technical situation and speak-up means that their needs are wholly under-represented, and many of the new color-professional wide-gamut products are unusable due the colorimetric distances being too far given 8b/color channel.

Re:But all glossy...

[MrNiCeGUi]

Heathen! How can you not choose beer?

Re:But all glossy...

[EvilIdler]

My no-name notebook has HDMI, VGA and S-Video out. The most common non-HP brands here, like Acer and Packard Bell, comes with HDMI on most models now. DVI-HDMI cables are cheap, and the thin they do better than DisplayPort is BEING AVAILABLE in stores where I live.

Re:But all glossy...

[hitmark]

because they make the big bucks by nickle and dimeing you to death...

Re:Want!

[Ash-Fox]

According to this, it is.

XNU stands for "XNU is not Unix".

Glossy screens..

[catwh0re]

apple release a laptop with 2 gpus, carved enclosure and buttonless track pad and slashdot spend all day talking about the glossy screen.

I'm more interesting in finding out how apple are going to utilise all those extra gpus, how they're going to make it easy for developers to use this hardware in 10.6 and what sort of speed ups we might be able to extract from having basically 4 processing cores available in a laptop.

Re:Want!

[Ash-Fox]

I hate to burst your bubble, but OS X is UNIX...officially.

Windows has UNIX certification too (Windows' POSIX subsystem is 100% compliant). But it is not Unix, nor is OS X.

That said, it still does not handle certain things correctly (see things like signaling, POSIX threads etc.)

Also, many of the rest of your points read like unsupported opinions, not fact.

Easy to verify yourself if you've got a Mac.

Glossy is better for text

[evalf]

I used to agree with the slashdot crowd that glossy==bad, until I had to use a glossy screen on my work laptop.

The glossy screens give you a better contrast, at the cost of pretty bad reflections on the darker areas of your screen. While I agree that the reflection may be a huge problem for the professionals working with anything related to images, I think that glossy screens are a better fit for the professionals that mostly deal with text and numbers. The characters are usually black on white, so the increased contrast gives you increased legibility. The glare is a non-issue, since the background is white.

no HDCP

[RMH101]

I'd be surprised if the Apple connector supports HDCP, which makes it a pretty useless replacement for HDMI as no content such as bluray will ever work with it if it doesn't support HDMI's DRM. Oh, and HDMI can also carry audio. Just sayin'

Re:no HDCP

[rootofevil]

convenient then, that the laptops do not include a bluray drive, isnt it?

almost like they planned it that way.

Have you tried editing DVD-camera content?

[RMH101]

DV has the great advantage of being uncompressed video. Nice and cheap (from a CPU standpoint) to edit. DVD-recording camcorders are terrible if you want to edit. Compressed footage is lossy, and also computationally slow to edit as it needs to be uncompressed on the fly. Ugh.

Shame the MB doesn't have an Expresscard slot to add firewire. Does seem a major omission in a media laptop.

Re:Have you tried editing DVD-camera content?

[flud]

Wrong. DV uses intraframe compression (DCT) vs. interframe compression codecs such as MPEG2.

Re:Screen resolution = FAIL

[wombat21]

ac, you need to look at the price we are being gouged for the new macbook / mbp here in oz, and compare that with the price of a high-end lenovo/hp etc laptop - it may be timing, but apple really needz to take a look at their pricing. i have 4gb on my 14" 'beater' and it came in at 2/3 of the price of the new macbook - identical cpu, but my laptop included all the goodiez the macbook needz. forgive the zedz - am typing thiz on a macbook pro and dont have the letter between 'r' and 't' anymore !

Re:But all glossy...

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, for 30" displays you need the dual-link-DVI adapter for 100$, which
will also take one of the sparse USB ports (for power).

Re:But all glossy...

[catxk]

Since DVI and HDMI basically are the same thing with different sockets, capability of one means capability of both.

Wrong.

[dakameleon]

Either of the bottom corners can be configured for secondary click - so if anything, it's better than the current single click - http://www.macworld.com/article/136063/2008/10/macbook_first_look.html

You can program either the bottom right or left corner of the trackpad to act as a secondary mouse button. In other words, if you click in the bottom corner of the trackpad, it can be registered as a right-click. So the no-button laptop can act as a two-button laptop after all. (Thereâ(TM)s no support for any additional button mappings, however.)

Re:But all glossy...

[TheNetAvenger]

People still aren't getting it.

Display Port is a cheap alternative way for Video only displays, and currently only has Apple and Dell backing on a grand scale.

HDMI is designed to deliver standard HD resolutions, and has specifications for the newer HD 2560x1600 and higher resolutions along with digital audio including advanced audio streams. One cable, all the content.

Display port would be classified as more of a direct replacement for computer only display interfaces without Audio.

Display port is in theory suppose to be cheaper and more 'open' but this ends up being more headache and hype than actual results. (Even just end users stringing multiple cables to their big screen was enough to shove DVI to the back of the industry)

If a MFR is using Display Port, they are trying to get by cheap and not expecting their users to hook up their computers to consumer level equipment, nor provide the uncompressed or Dolby audio streams that HDMI provides.

So it is 'ok' Apple is using Display Port, but it is not the HDMI replacement, especially when it doesn't even address audio or other signialling HDMI does. It is the cheap alternative. Display Port also has some severe cable length problems for higher bandwidth/resolutions. (Display Port does support HDCP although, but that is not so much of a feature to many DRM scared users.)

A LOT of people use PCs to control their video equipment in their houses, not only the standard Media Center installations, but everything from Myth and Beyond TV to even just PCs for displaying online content from Netflix or YouTube and hooking up their laptops to the big screen for various reasons. Computers controlling consumer level equipment and hooking in to the main 'screen' at the house is a common thing today. (AppleTV is a come late and do little concept here.)

Also, on Laptops, HDMI solutions are a lot more important, and also why even old DVI interfaces on laptops are a better choice, as they at least are signal compatible with HDMI displays, even if you have to provide separate audio.

Re:Want!

[Zakabog]

"I'm marked redundant if I bring the story up again so just read my many posts. I know you can buy the lower pan for approximately $200 online but those are all used parts, you can't find new ones."

First of all it's $50 used (click the link). Second of all, you've got to be kidding me kidding me, all of this ranting about how expensive the parts are and you're talking about the NEW price? No shit it's expensive, every laptop manufacturer out there sells their new parts for a shit ton of money. They know you can't get it anywhere else and every model laptop has a different part.

At least with Apple the part is worth it, you're not spending $600 for cheap plastic on a $400 laptop. If you think brand new replacement parts on a PC laptop are any cheaper than the Apple then you're sadly mistaken. Go work in a computer shop and price out parts for laptops, we got most of our parts off of ebay used (yes our customers were aware they were used) for the simple fact that no one wants to spend double the price they paid on a laptop just to get the thing fixed.

I can't believe you come in here talking about how the "smugness" of the apple store and repair shops drove you away when you won't even accept a used part for 1/12th the price you were quoted. Buy the part used or go call Dell to ask them how much the same job would cost through them on a $400 laptop (pick a Vostro 1000) to replace with a brand new plastic case.

You'll soon find how much of a bargain you're receiving when you're only paying $600 out of $2,000 as opposed to $300 (just made up a number, the job could cost more or maybe even less but paying less is doubtful) out of $400.

It's even more of a bargain when you realize the $400 laptop barely meets the system requirements of the OS it's running (Windows Vista.)

Re:Want!

[jasonbowen]

I've done self repair on laptops before, and never even had a job come close to approaching this price. The part you quoted wasn't the model number I needed as well. All the lower pans don't have the same exact mounting points and dimensions, hence the different model numbers. No, I will not buy a used pan sight unseen online, that is ridiculous.

Re:Want!

[jasonbowen]

Says the anonymous pussy.

Re:But all glossy...

[cicatrix1]

Um. Yeah, except one also carries audio. Making them, you know, not even close.

Re:Incorrect. Macs can boot from USB

[rsborg]

This may be offtopic, but you do know that PowerPC macs can do so as well, right?
So most macs can boot from USB

I know, I did this to copy system data for my sister's iBook G4.

Re:First post? Maybe people are afraid they patent

[davidsyes]

I wouldn't mind owning some of Apples products. I readily admit they by far outdo almost anything out there.

But, these are sexy machines, too:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/10/14/2391134.htm

http://www.mobilewhack.com/reviews/flybook_vm_laptop.html

http://gizmodo.com/5043374/samsung-x360-laptop-is-super-skinny

Configurable buttons?

[Digital_Quartz]

According to Apple, the new touchpad has software definable buttons for extra functionality, such as right-clicks.

Can you configure an area of the touchpad for middle clicks, as well? Can I finally get a decent laptop with a three button touchpad?

Thank you...

[mario_grgic]

For a really good summary of the issues with glossy displays. These are exactly my concerns and problems with them (and many non-glossy LCDs that are just too bright).

Where's the big boy?

[Yim]

Where's the 17" mammoth? They can't extrude the aluminum slab that big? That's Apple's showpiece, and I'm really surprised it didn't make the cut. Does anyone know the scoop?

Re:Where's the big boy?

[wombat21]

Apple have decided to nix the 17", as it competed with the size of Steve's head.

re: work anywhere?

[King_TJ]

People might have bought a laptop so they could "work anywhere they wanted" -- but that doesn't mean all environments are created equal.

I can technically work in a moving car, using my laptop, but it gives a lot of people motion sickness to do that for very long. Is that the laptop's fault?

The fact is, the new glossy displays on the 15" Macbook Pros can get very bright. People just receiving theirs are reporting they don't normally recommend even turning the brightness up more than about "5 clicks from the brightest setting". So it's certainly capable of things like using it outdoors in sunlight without the display totally washing out. That's something that wasn't even a possibility at all with many older laptops I've used.

Yeah, it's completely weird...

[mbessey]

It does make a kind of sense, though. Die-cast aluminum has a very different "feel" than forged/milled aluminum. Cast metal will have weird "grain" effects around all the little details, as well.

And, really - it's not like the case is a major cost driver for these products. The CPU, hard drive, and memory are probably 90% of the material costs. If the crazy milled aluminum case adds even $5 to the cost of the case, I'd be shocked.

In return for the insanely-complex manufacturing process, they get a case that's lighter, stronger, and has that special Apple "coolness".

Re:Yeah, it's completely weird...

[MightyYar]

You are right... I mean we're talking about a couple of dollars. But for most mass-producers, those dollars add up!

The thing is, a hog-out gives them a major advantage in time-to-market since they don't have to make any tooling... and changes are a simple matter of reprogramming the mills.

I was just surprised that they didn't stamp or mold it to a shape that was somewhat close to cut down on the machining. As you said, probably some combination of strength and precision. I betcha it's real purty :)

Re:Yeah, it's completely weird...

[SteeldrivingJon]

I think the first product made this way was the thin keyboards that came out last year. I assume they worked out the economics and the production kinks then before deciding to use it for the laptops.

Re:Want!

[Zakabog]

"I've done self repair on laptops before, and never even had a job come close to approaching this price."

Yes but that's self repair, if you did self repair on your apple it would be $55 for the part on eBay. Unless you're suggesting that you did self repair and bought the part brand new from the manufacturer. If you bought it "new" from a third party, I hate to tell you this but it wasn't new. The only place you can reliably get the parts new is from the company that made the laptop and even then it might be parts from a refurbished laptop or some old leftover parts that weren't quality enough to

"The part you quoted wasn't the model number I needed as well."

I know, it's not a part # it's a $400 laptop model from Dell, a Dell Vostro 1000.

The part number is WY383 you can see it on eBay -

http://cgi.ebay.com/New-Dell-Vostro-1000-Laptop-Base-Bottom-Plastic-WY383_W0QQitemZ110185600884QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item110185600884&_trksid=p3286.m63.l1177

It's "new" because the laptop is brand new probably never used, they just parted it to sell on eBay (it's worth a lot as parts, the LCD sells for the price of the laptop.) If you notice the part isn't being sold in the U.S. and it's selling for more than the same part for your Apple.

"No, I will not buy a used pan sight unseen online, that is ridiculous."

Why is that ridiculous? People do it all the time and get quality working hardware for a fraction of the cost it would be from the manufacturer. Not only that but you can see the photos, and you can contact the seller for more photos, you can also ask if they have a newer one or if they will accept returns. Most likely they'll have one in great shape, or you can find another place that's not eBay, I just used it as an example because it was the first result in Google.

If you want it "new" you can get it here -

http://www.powerbookmedic.com/MacBook-Pro-Bottom-Pan-15-Case---NEW-p-16909.html

That's as new as you're going to get it without going through Apple or if you don't mind getting a refurbished model

http://www.welovemacs.com/9227210r.html

Obviously you'll have to find your own part number (I don't know what model you have so I just picked the same standard 15" model.

Re:Glossy only? Agreed!

[badkarmadayaccount]

Amen brother. Why is this Funny, BTW?

Re:Want!

[Macka]

Gee, could you slap a little more sarcasm on that please: I think you missed a spot!

Did you completely miss the point of this article? It's about the announcement of the new MacBooks and one of the significant new features is the way they are built.

Re:Want!

[Panaflex]

You might be surprised to find that padded carpeting isn't uniform, especially near walls and seams. Your laptop probably hit concrete in that case, because carpet doesn't compress all that well without padding underneath.

I've seen thinkpads and old HP laptops get broken too... sometimes it's just dumb luck. I wouldn't blame it on Apple design. Heck, my thinkpad case has cracked on the right side twice now... I got tired of buying new case pieces off ebay and just bought a macbook pro.

If it makes you feel better you can probably bang out those dents. Try that with a Dell!

Half or more of slashdot posters prefer matte

[presidenteloco]

and all slashdot posters are people who use their computers intensively (e.g. programming) and for long periods. We can assume that slashdot users stare at their screens more, and need to get more detail from it reliably (as opposed to just watching a movie) in completely variable lighting conditions. I use my matte laptop for programming on a long bus ride, everyday, for example. We can conclude that a substantial number of serious, technology opinion-leader, computer users are going to hate the new Macbook Pro glossy-only policy, are going to be seriously p/o'd in fact. Bad move, Apple, specially if you are trying to get into business computing (more people who stare much more intensively at details on their screens for long periods in varying lighting conditions. This is just a stupid, backwards move. Clearly, the market wants a choice. Offer it or lose otherwise dedicated customers.

Betrayal

[bandmassa]

23 years as a dedicated Mac evangelist and they remove Firewire from the only Mac portable I can afford, the MacBook. I was going to upgrade in April, when my work's sal-sac year started. Now I'll be considering a Dell or Toshiba hackintosh because I can get Firewire on one of those for AU$800 (compared to AU$2099) and a few hours on the torrents. Bastages.

Re:Want!

[jprescott12]

Windows has certain level POSIX compliance (it is not 100% because it doesn't provide a POSIX-compliant shell, as far as I know, as well as other POSIX requirements). Mac OS X has Unix certification, including 100% compliance with the mandatory components of ALL the POSIX specifications. That puts in the league of Solaris, HP/UX, IRIX, AIX, and other Unix systems. Linux is NOT Unix-certified (and can't be because it exhibits certain kernel behaviors and interfaces different from what is expected from a Unix system, and those are design choices made by Linus Torvalds and the others in the Linux kernel system). It handles everything (signaling, POSIX threads, etc.) by the book (the BSD book, at least, with some System V support thrown in)! That's why Mac OS X is certified to be Unix-compliant and Linux is not. Linux often introduces behaviors and/or interface changes that the kernel team (Linus Torvalds and company) have deemed to be better (which it may or may not), but it's not Unix. Biggest significant difference I've seen in porting Linux software to Mac OS X is the lack of implementation of some of the optional features of the POSIX Real-Time extensions that many (though not all) Linux distributions support. They can usually be gotten around, however, you often have to venture into the worlds of Mach programming to achieve the same behaviors. All the KDE/Gnome/Other X-Window applications and stuff is not required for Unix certification. X-Windows itself is not even required for Unix certification. However, Mac OS X 10.5 provides a modern X-Windows environment in which the majority of the X-Windows based applications can (and have been) ported to Mac OS X. Mac OS X at the command line has the same GNU command line tools that Linux provides, most of them from the same code base (depending on version).

Re:Want!

[SanityInAnarchy]

The last major thing I heard about was more power-management related -- fans and such being too loud. And on the Powerbook I tried myself, last time, I don't remember exactly what it was -- I think it was wireless, maybe it was X -- but I ended up using OS X on it for pretty much its entire lifetime, because of that.

Basically, I'm at the point where I can afford to spend a premium to let someone else make sure all my shit works. Then I get to spend time customizing my OS -- picking out wallpapers, setting KDE shortcuts, etc -- rather than, say, dicking around in a VT trying to get X working.

I'm not saying such things are necessarily going to happen on Linux, but there always seems to be one little thing. On my last laptop, everything worked except sound, so I bought a USB sound device.

This time, it paid off. The only thing that doesn't work on this laptop is the webcam -- it claims to be 2 megapixels, and I can only pull 640x480 -- but I did reformat, and I don't really care. If I want a high-quality photo, I'll take one. Otherwise, there's not great odds that I'll be able to send much better quality when using it as a webcam.

Re:Want!

[SanityInAnarchy]

There's plenty of Linux software that won't run on OS X and vice versa.

Oh really? Care to name some?

Off the top of my head, solid support for any filesystem other than HFS+ or FAT32. Maybe NTFS has been ported? Contrast this with, on Linux, ext2/3/4, XFS, JFS, cramfs, romfs, ocfs2, gfs2, jffs2, befs, minix, reiserfs (and reiser4)... Need I go on?

I haven't checked lately, but it looks like OS X supports SMB. What about CIFS? (Needed for files > 4 gigs.)

There's also KDE3, and all that implies, but I'm not sure about that. KDE4 is ported, but I'm not sure KDE4 is quite done.

Oh, and a proper package manager. Macports is a start, but it's far from the only option, and it feels very much grafted on. And it seems to only support the Unix stuff -- when can I update all my random freeware Mac apps with one command?

The other way around is, of course, too easy -- Photoshop, for one.

there is plenty of hardware, such as scanners and printers that will not work with Linux.

Oh really? Care to name some?

OS X actually uses CUPS for printing -- the same system modern Linux distros use.

Re:Want!

[SanityInAnarchy]

First: No, it won't. See my replies below -- there's still plenty of stuff that works well on Linux, and poorly or not at all on OS X.

Second: good package management. Maybe it's more of an opinion, but I much prefer Linux packages.

Third: I prefer the KDE GUI to the OS X GUI. And if I ever have a problem with it, I can always swap it out for another window manager, or write my own (which is on my list of things to do before I die).

Can't really do that with OS X -- or at least, if I actually just run X, with an X window manager, what's the point of running OS X at all? None of the OS X apps would work (unless I was doing this in the X11-compatibility-layer-on-top-of-OSX bastardization, which I doubt would work well with a third-party window manager), and some core Linux stuff would also be missing (package management). That's assuming I didn't tear my hair out setting it up in the first place.

I still recommend OS X as a target for people migrating away from Windows, as a second choice to Linux. But no way is it going to be my primary OS again, anytime soon.

Re:HDMI DisplayPort

[SanityInAnarchy]

Thanks, that answers my question.

As a counterargument, I'm not really sure if my shiny new monitor supports DisplayPort.

But it supports HDMI, and so does my laptop. And HDMI easily supports its max resolution and refresh rate.

And unlike DVI, there are no thumbscrews. Win!

yeah, wtf?

[Uberbah]

They'll put TWO graphics cards in the Pro that you can switch between, but took Firewire out of the new Macbook? When most (or at leas the last time I checked) video cameras still come with Firewire connections? It made sense for the Air, but not for the regular Macbook.

Re:Glossy only? Agreed!

[vought]

Photographers near universal failure to understand the technical situation and speak-up means that their needs are wholly under-represented, and many of the new color-professional wide-gamut products are unusable due the colorimetric distances being too far given 8b/color channel.

So....the problem is that photographers are too stupid to know what they're looking at?

Nice. I'll make sure to tell the photographers who have been making art for thirty years that they don't know what they're talking about.

Two of my clients are Apple "Pros", who have made their needs fully and widely known at Apple...when someone who isn't trying to promote Aperture is listening.

No. One. Gives. A. Shit. At Apple.

Some number larger than two of my clients are Canon Masters. Apple doesn't care. Canon recommends PCs. Where's Apple going with this glossy-only crap?

Re:Want!

[arminw]

...What about CIFS? (Needed for files > 4 gigs.)...

The Mac OSX file system supports as big a file as anyone could buy a disk drive to hold it. What is the use of another file system for most users? HFS+ in OSX with Spotlight searching does pretty much everything those others you mentioned. Besides most users don't CARE about the innards of the file systems and how beautiful or ugly it may be. All they want is read access to their data and software.

(...There's also KDE3, and all that implies, but I'm not sure about that. KDE4 is ported...)

Who would want to use that when the GUI of OSX is far better?

(...Oh really? Care to name some?...)

Get my Epson CX5400 all in one scanner-printer working in Linux? How about my Epson R1800 wide carriage photo printer or the Konica Minolta color laser printer? ? Maybe somebody has kludged something up, but Epson and Minolta only support Windows and Mac OSX. Who has time to scout the Internet for software that MIGHT work? User really DO care whether they can buy name brand printers, scanners camcorders and have them work without a lot of fuss. Having to download even ONE piece of software to make a device work correctly is OK for geeks, but not for grandma user. She wants to pop in a disk, click the mouse and then print or scan.

(...Oh, and a proper package manager...)

Most free Mac software comes on DMG a disk image that opens and installs the software with a few mouse clicks. For example GIMP installs on OSX and runs with x11.app which comes with every Mac. Other X-11 programs also work just fine. Much fine free open software runs in the native OSX environment.

windows? sun?

[Trepidity]

what kind of self-respecting engineering school lets the students out of the basement labs?

Re:Want!

[Apotsy]

LOL, is that all you've got in response to the detailed post by an engineer who actually worked on the changes to make it real UNIX?

The recursive acronym is well known, but did you know that there was a bug filed during the certification effort to change the name to xiu, as it's now out of date? They didn't fix it because they figured it wouldn't be worth the trouble, and anyone who cared would be smart enough to know better. Guess they were wrong about that last part!

Re:Want!

[Ash-Fox]

LOL, is that all you've got in response to the detailed post by an engineer who actually worked on the changes to make it real UNIX?

No, but you miss understood my original post. Thus I am clarifying that for you.

I honestly don't care what that engineer did, the issues I posted are real problems that exist on OS X.

The recursive acronym is well known, but did you know that there was a bug filed during the certification effort to change the name to xiu, as it's now out of date?

That really just means, a bug report was filed.

I could file a bug report saying that OS X should be renamed to OS XI due to major changes.

They didn't fix it because they figured it wouldn't be worth the trouble, and anyone who cared would be smart enough to know better.

Come on, this is Apple!

You've seen how they like to spin every little trivial thing.

Re:Want!

[Ash-Fox]

Windows has certain level POSIX compliance (it is not 100% because it doesn't provide a POSIX-compliant shell, as far as I know, as well as other POSIX requirements).

Yes it does. It's fully compliant when you install the POSIX subsystem (installed with Windows Services for Unix).

Mac OS X has Unix certification, including 100% compliance with the mandatory components of ALL the POSIX specifications.

I honestly do not care about certification, the problems I mentioned exist and that is why I am not interested in it.

Linux is NOT Unix-certified (and can't be because it exhibits certain kernel behaviors and interfaces different from what is expected from a Unix system, and those are design choices made by Linus Torvalds and the others in the Linux kernel system).

I thought I made this clear already by saying GNU is not Unix.

In my original post, I said "It's not about Unix (even though the BSD subsystem is so broken on OS X, it can't even handle things like signaling properly". Which was a counter point mostly towards the whole theme of the post that "OS X will run all the same software Linux will run."

I am not arguing about certification, I am arguing about the fact that the BSD subsystem is broken in various ways, the fact that what makes me use Linux over OS X is nothing to do with how "Unix" it is (I don't even use it for ideological reasons, I consider it technically superior).

Biggest significant difference I've seen in porting Linux software to Mac OS X is the lack of implementation of some of the optional features of the POSIX Real-Time extensions that many (though not all) Linux distributions support.

My biggest problem in simply porting Linux software to OS X was GTK not being the same as on every other platform (unless you run it in X11, which has broken clipboard issues), numerous OpenGL bugs (I spent a lot of time playing with 3D graphics at one point) that work on every other OS, but OS X etc.

Mac OS X 10.5 provides a modern X-Windows environment in which the majority of the X-Windows based applications can (and have been) ported to Mac OS X.

Seriously, it's not handling clipboard data properly, drag and drop and probably some other things I haven't found yet. While it maybe "modern", it's certainly "broken".

Mac OS X at the command line has the same GNU command line tools that Linux provides, most of them from the same code base (depending on version).

Honestly, when the tools just segfault, it's not good enough. When I need to install stuff like fink, macports which don't even provide tools that don't segfault (they don't segfault on Linux, Cygwin, Interix/WSU), it's just not acceptable for my uses.

Re:Want!

[Eli Gottlieb]

I must admit, Linux seems to really fuck with my battery.

Re:Want!

[SanityInAnarchy]

The Mac OSX file system supports as big a file as anyone could buy a disk drive to hold it.

CIFS stands for Common Internet FileSystem. It's the new version of SMB. Without it, you indeed cannot read files bigger than 4 gigs from a Samba share, or from a shared folder on Windows.

What is the use of another file system for most users?

A fair question, but beside the point. You asked if there was software that wouldn't run on OS X, and there is.

And to answer that question, the use of another filesystem is if you have files stored on that other filesystem. If I need to recover files from a dead hard drive, I boot a Linux livecd, confident that it can read any filesystem I throw at it. Even if OS X had a livecd that would run on non-Mac hardware, it wouldn't be able to read either the XFS or the ext3 filesystem on this hard drive.

Who would want to use that when the GUI of OSX is far better?

Opinion, not fact. I like KDE, and I intensely dislike the OS X GUI.

Most free Mac software comes on DMG a disk image that opens and installs the software with a few mouse clicks.

Which is both unintuitive (tons of people just run them from the disk image, instead of dragging it to applications) and not a package manager.

Dependencies, reverse-dependencies, automatic updates (or manual updates of the entire system with a single click/command), actual uninstallation (do I drag it to the trash? Do I find the .mpkg?), huge repositories of known-good software (as in, not malicious), trivially scriptable for setting up a new, custom installation exactly the way you want, without resorting to disk images.

You could argue that none of the above things are needed -- which would be kind of like claiming none of the advanced features of Photoshop are really needed, and we should all be content with the Gimp. If your main argument is that features aren't needed, you've already lost.

I happen to like those features. In particular, there's no way in hell I'm going back to checking each of 10 or 20 free Mac programs for updates manually, by going to the website.

Re:Want!

[SanityInAnarchy]

Oh, and to answer your printer question:

http://www.linuxprinting.org/show_printer.cgi?recnum=Epson-Stylus_CX5400
http://www.linuxprinting.org/show_printer.cgi?recnum=Epson-Stylus_Photo_R1800
http://www.openprinting.org/printer_list.cgi?make=KONICA+MINOLTA

Epson and Minolta only support Windows and Mac OSX.

Bullshit:

http://www.linux.com/feature/113738

"The Epson America website directs you to Epson Kowa for Linux drivers for their printers, including one for the CX5400. You can download their GPLd binaries and source code from here."

Re:Want!

[arminw]

.... Mac programs for updates manually, by going to the website...

Many free as well as for $$$ Mac programs allow for automatic checking for updates. They usually do this when the program starts. Some programs have a "check for Updates" in the help menu or preference settings.

(...trivially scriptable for setting up a new, custom installation exactly the way you want...)

Maybe for someone who develops software or a power user such things might be important. To most people, computers like cars have a utility function. They don't care even a little what happens under the hood. They want the car to get them where they want to go and want their computer to work as soon as they plug it in and sit down in front of it. The Mac, though not perfect, is by far and away the closest to this, of all computing devices available to common folks. When something goes wrong, they want one phone number to call or a store they can complain to. Windows and Macs let users do that, but for Linux, things are not so simple. Downloading a bunch of software is not what Joe or Jane user want to have to do, before the new computer works with their new printer or scanner. They want to pop the disk that came with the device in, click "INSTALL" and then print or scan.

Re:Want!

[arminw]

(...The Epson America website directs you to Epson Kowa for Linux drivers...)

Downloading a bunch of software is not what Joe or Jane user want to have to do, before the new computer works with their new printer or scanner. They want to pop the disk that came with the device in, click "INSTALL" and then print or scan. That is why Linux is for geeks and nerds but is in fact a great OS. Joe and Jane don't care about source code or any other code. They expect their computer, like a TV or toaster, to "just work" when they turn it on. It seems that many Linux advocating /. citizens here DON'T understand this.

Joe and Jane user need to be able to call an 800 number of the manufacturer or bug someone at the store they bought their shiny new computer. They cannot go to a Linux store like they can to an Apple store nor can they send a distress call to the maker of their computer in most cases. If they have a geeky relative, willing to be their support department, then maybe Linux is a viable option for them. Maybe some geeks enjoy being the support dept. for their relatives and friends.

Even though I know and also use Windows and to a lesser degree Linux (Ubuntu) I tell relatives and friends: "Sorry, I only do Macs". Several of them have even gone out and gotten a Mac so they can have someone close by or a phone call away that is able and (somewhat) willing to help them. Because Macs (usually) "just work" I don't get too manny calls.

Re:Want!

[Ash-Fox]

Who would want to use that when the GUI of OSX is far better?

I consider KDE's GUI superior. It is far more flexible, offers more and lets me use a real menu and taskbar instead of a "dock".

Just this small thing makes me prefer KDE (and there are many things about KDE that I prefer mind you):
OS X vs KDE

I have used OS X and I have been OS X user for many years, but I still prefer KDE, period.

Who has time to scout the Internet for software that MIGHT work?

I don't, that's why I don't use Windows or OS X on my laptop.

Most free Mac software comes on DMG a disk image that opens and installs the software with a few mouse clicks.

Or drag and drop application. A archive format doesn't impress me.

For example GIMP installs on OSX and runs with x11.app which comes with every Mac. Other X-11 programs also work just fine. Much fine free open software runs in the native OSX environment.

Drag and drop doesn't work in OS X's X11, clipboard is broken in OS X's X11 (many applications worked around this by using Aqua's clipboard functions - but, who wants to bother porting all this crap. We just want to use the software) there is probably other numerous issues in X11, but by that time, I had enough of porting with OS X.

Much fine free open software runs in the native OSX environment.

Not really. A lot of finf, macports packages crash on OS X, upgrading OS X will cause special problems with them - weird segfaults etc.

Applications aren't quite native either when they have to run in a special window interface, because stuff like GTK on OS X is messed up beyond belief, making porting a nightmare. Thus it's far easier to just run the proper GTK libraries under a broken X11 server.

Re:Want!

[Ash-Fox]

Downloading a bunch of software is not what Joe or Jane user want to have to do, before the new computer works with their new printer or scanner. They want to pop the disk that came with the device in, click "INSTALL" and then print or scan.

On the other hand, you have people who just plug their scanners, webcams, soundcard devices, bluetooth devices and it "just works" on the computer (particularly those running Linux).

No drivers to install, no CDs to mess with. No software to install that takes over file associations and installs unwanted software that starts up with the system.

Re:Want!

[arminw]

...No drivers to install, no CDs to mess with...

That did not work with UBUNTU and my KONICA and Epson printers. Even the Internet did not work right away, I had to change some settings Joe or Jane user would have deemed arcane and not known about without a geeky ./ person such as I and most people here are. I could not even get a CD for the Konica.

Re:But all glossy...

[XLR8DST8]

eh. i have both and i hate paying for pointless adapters. the most insulting thing so far is the iphone 3g dock being $30 for a fucking piece of plastic. what bugs me most about my macbook pro is the right USB port. i'm reading a lot of macbook pros have this problem. i've also read with music software & interfaces some companies only support the device when it's plugged into the left side. obviously it's defective in the design.

Re:Want!

[Apotsy]

No, but you miss understood my original post. Thus I am clarifying that for you.

No, you're backpedalling now. You claimed it didn't handle unix tasks "properly", yet it's been proven and documented that OS X is compliant. Arguing about the name is just misdirection.

I honestly don't care what that engineer did, the issues I posted are real problems that exist on OS X.

You don't care what changes have been made to make it UNIX, the very thing you are complaining about? Yeah, that makes sense. Anyway, what "problems" specifically do you know of in the current version? Let's see one. Show me a genuine case where it doesn't pass compliance.

It's UNIX. Get over it.

Re:But all glossy...

[plazman30]

What relegated DVI to legacy status was that HD-DVD and Blu Ray player FORCED users to go HDMI, or not be able to view their high def content. I use HDMI, but I don't use for audio.

HP is also betting big on Display Port. I just saw their whole new line of monitors and laptops and they all have Display Port on them.

Display Port, however, seems to be more of a DVI replacement, than an HDMI replacement.

Andy

Re:Want!

[Ash-Fox]

That did not work with UBUNTU and my KONICA and Epson printers. Even the Internet did not work right away, I had to change some settings Joe or Jane user would have deemed arcane and not known about without a geeky ./ person such as I and most people here are. I could not even get a CD for the Konica.

*Shrugs* Not my experience.

Re:Want!

[Ash-Fox]

No, you're backpedalling now. You claimed it didn't handle unix tasks "properly", yet it's been proven and documented that OS X is compliant. Arguing about the name is just misdirection.

I honestly don't give a shit if it conforms to some shitty tests that doesn't catch out the signaling problems I encountered when I last used OS X.

You don't care what changes have been made to make it UNIX, the very thing you are complaining about?

No, I don't. Because as I said in my initial post, the reason why I use Linux has nothing to do with Unix. When was the last time I decided I wanted to use Linux because of the POSIX permissions? Floating Point Exceptions? Segmentation Violations? etc. etc. To put it simply: I never decided on Linux for those reasons.

The things I wrote about OS X not doing crap properly was just a side note.

Yeah, that makes sense. Anyway, what "problems" specifically do you know of in the current version?

I don't know. I don't use OS X anymore because of "logicboard failures" (what Apple likes to call a shit motherboard) in my recent hardware.

Let's see one. Show me a genuine case where it doesn't pass compliance.

Again, I don't care about compliance tests. It just doesn't work for my uses, period and I have written the reasons why it doesn't above.

I don't know if it's in the compliance test and I don't care. I really don't care about Unix. What makes me use Linux is nothing to do with Unix which is what I have been saying all along.

It's UNIX. Get over it.

By that definition, Windows is too, since it's POSIX subsystem (provided by Windows Services for Unix) is 100% compliant.

Re:Want!

[SanityInAnarchy]

Downloading a bunch of software is not what Joe or Jane user want to have to do, before the new computer works with their new printer or scanner. They want to pop the disk that came with the device in, click "INSTALL" and then print or scan.

They'd rather pop in a CD? Really?

Never mind that much more hardware is supported by Linux, out of the box, than Windows. Very likely, you wouldn't have to download anything -- your distro would already have it preinstalled.

That is why Linux is for geeks and nerds but is in fact a great OS. Joe and Jane don't care about source code or any other code. They expect their computer, like a TV or toaster, to "just work" when they turn it on.

Downright flamebait.

You see, Linux does this, far better than Windows.

It's when you start adding things, quite unlike a TV or a toaster, that it gets complicated. For Linux, I plug in a printer and click "add printer", if it doesn't install itself automatically.

For Windows, I plug in a printer, pop in the driver CD, click "install", click "next" a bunch of times, then, more often than not, check the Internet for updates anyway.

Joe and Jane user need to be able to call an 800 number of the manufacturer or bug someone at the store they bought their shiny new computer.

I've got one: Dell.

They cannot go to a Linux store like they can to an Apple store

No, but they can go to a LUG.

Maybe some geeks enjoy being the support dept. for their relatives and friends.

Once I set up Ubuntu, I don't have many calls.

Re:Want!

[SanityInAnarchy]

Many free as well as for $$$ Mac programs allow for automatic checking for updates.

And many don't.

On Ubuntu, almost every piece of software can be auto-updated through my package manager. (I say "almost", because I do develop software, and I do have a few programs installed from source. But that's by choice -- these programs are also available through the package manager.)

Explain to me, so I understand: Installing software is, essentially, copying files from somewhere else to your computer, and getting them set up.

Why does it matter whether the files come from a CD or from the Internet?

Maybe for someone who develops software or a power user such things might be important.

Which is the fucking point.

Unless you're forgetting something, this thread was about me, and why I might want to use Linux instead of OS X, even on a Powerbook. I think that pretty clearly answers that -- I can do things, that I want to do, that are more difficult (or impossible) on OS X.

To most people, computers like cars have a utility function.

Me too. I don't know much about cars -- I don't even change my own oil. (I don't currently own a car, but I didn't change my own oil when I did.)

But I would be very hesitant to buy a car which had the hood welded shut.

That's an interesting point

[mbessey]

I haven't ever looked at one of those keyboards close up. I had always assumed they were stamped, rather than machined.