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Second World of Warcraft Expansion Launched, Conquered

The much-anticipated second expansion to World of Warcraft, entitled Wrath of the Lich King, launched on Thursday, introducing a new continent, raising the level cap to 80, and bringing a wealth of new items, spells, dungeons, and monsters to the popular MMO. Crowds gathered and lines formed outside stores around the world leading up to the release. Massively has put together a series of articles for players wishing to familiarize themselves with the expansion, and CVG has a piece discussing the basics as well. It didn't take long for the first person to reach level 80; a French player called "Nymh" reached the level cap on his Warlock only 27 hours after the expansion went live. Not to be outdone, a guild named "TwentyFifthNovember" managed to get at least 25 raiders to 80 and then cleared all of the current expansion raid content less than three days after the launch. Fortunately for them, the next three content patches are each expected to contain new, more difficult raids.

386 comments

  1. Everyone who cares.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    ...is in Northrend.

    1. Re:Everyone who cares.... by Lulfas · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Umm.. There's been 2 expansions. The first increased the size of the world by about 40%, this one increased the size by 25% or so (of that bigger area). There was HUGE amounts of new content. Go whine about Everquest if you want to whine about "pay for crap" extortion.

    2. Re:Everyone who cares.... by erroneus · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I don't care about you... therefore you aren't anything that matters either. See how I got that twisted around?

      But you did touch on why it does matter -- it's a [sub-]cultural phenomenon. Increasingly, things that exist only in a virtual sense matters more an more. Increasingly, the virtual world and its economy has affects in this real world... at least I think it's the real world.

    3. Re:Everyone who cares.... by Hubbell · · Score: 0

      What NEW stuff was in that 'content' that wasnt just a rehash of 'get 40 guys together and raidraidraid'? New Content was the kind of shit Turbine used to put into Asheron's Call, adding new quests, new mechanics, new things every month, and (very very sadly as most of the time they fucked this part up even when 3/4 of the pk base said THIS WILL RUIN PVP DONT DO IT to multiple additions that they immediately would rollback) pvp spells/items/quests.

    4. Re:Everyone who cares.... by jacquesm · · Score: 3, Funny

      you are erroneus...

    5. Re:Everyone who cares.... by Arivia · · Score: 5, Informative

      The raids aren't anywhere near as big a part of WoW as you make it seem. The reason they get so much attention, I think, is because Blizzard's done them so completely and well, unlike other mmorpgs.

      New Quests: there's about 1000 across Northrend. (and fyi, the last big patch before WotLK content - 2.4 - added about 50, 30 of which were repeatable every day.)
      New Mechanics: that's an incredibly vague term, but there are the new phasing and knockback systems, and the new inscription profession. Also, Blizzard doesn't have a design philosophy that lends itself to including large amounts of whatever to the game. They add in consistent stuff that works with the rest of the game.

      The new expansion also adds a new class, revamps two others, adds ten more levels (and corresponding new abilities) for all characters, an entire new continent to explore and see new things in, more crafting options.

      And the design on all of this blows away what's come before. The new zones feel really alive - they look fantastic, sound wonderful, and offer interesting and new ways to get around them. Everyone who got off the boat or zeppelin just stopped and went "Wow." for a few minutes. And then we hit the dungeons - the third of the starter dungeons, Azjol-Nerub, has to be played to be believed. It's half an hour of terrifying beauty, of wriggling mummified *things* laying between two golden mushrooms in caverns man was never meant to see, had never seen. You look down vistas swarming with spiders crawling over the most beautiful architecture yet - and then you jump down to join them. It's lovecraftian and slasher-esque and Indiana Jones all at the same time. It's fantastic, and probably the best experience I've had ever in WoW, and one of the best in a game, period.

      --
      The role of the writer is not to say what we can all say, but what we are unable to say. -Anais Nin
    6. Re:Everyone who cares.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Will I ever experience such beauty? Youtube it for me, broseph.

    7. Re:Everyone who cares.... by Bozzio · · Score: 3, Funny

      No, I'm Night Elf Erroneus.
      He's Blood Elf Magratheus.

      Sheesh!

      --
      I just pooped your party.
    8. Re:Everyone who cares.... by Nefarious+Wheel · · Score: 5, Interesting

      really, how is this stuff that matters?

      If the game play doesn't interest you any more, then consider an IT client-server delivery system that manages 11 million customers on a daily basis, each of whom have up to 9 entities per x servers (I don't know how many there are now, but their are 3 major groupings of them) each entity with up to a hundred objects or so each with their own attributes, with those objects involved with a number of transfers, creations and disposals per hours-long encounters, and a similar number of entities living on the server (as PvE mobs).

      Think of 11 million customers and the absolutely monsterous OLTP system that allows for all that database management with a surprisingly small amount of lag overall.

      If the computer system that supports all that isn't "stuff that matters" then I suspect you may find spending your time on a different forum more profitable.

      --
      Do not mock my vision of impractical footwear
    9. Re:Everyone who cares.... by Idimmu+Xul · · Score: 5, Interesting

      If the game play doesn't interest you any more, then consider an IT client-server delivery system that manages 11 million customers on a daily basis, each of whom have up to 9 entities per x servers (I don't know how many there are now, but their are 3 major groupings of them) each entity with up to a hundred objects or so each with their own attributes, with those objects involved with a number of transfers, creations and disposals per hours-long encounters, and a similar number of entities living on the server (as PvE mobs).

      The day someone throws up an article on this, I will be more than just interested, it will be a fantastic read I'm sure! That wasn't today though was it?

      --
      The problem with slashdot is that most of its users were bullied and stuffed into lockers as kids!
    10. Re:Everyone who cares.... by duckInferno · · Score: 5, Informative

      Seconded on Azjol-Nerub. The first of them, aptly titled "Azjol-Nerub: Azjol-Nerub", is a 15 minute instance (!) yet so much effort and work has gone into the detailing of the level. It's a surreal vertical adventure. For half of it, think of a dungeon. Now, have a mass of spider webbing totally mess up all the paths, corridors, pits and doors to create a completely different spacial structure: you walk on suspended webbing rather than the dungeon paths. This was best demonstrated to me when walking along a bridge above a huge open pit, then hitting some steep webbing in the middle of it. Unable to proceed forward, I noticed.. that the steep webbing covers slopes down the pit. We slid down it and walked around above the sprawling dungeon below us. Truly surreal and the awesomeness is difficult to convey in text.

      The second, which I forget the name of, is some sort of deep "open air" city with a babylonian flavour to it, inside a gigantic abyssal cavern. Within 10 seconds of walking in you can see the entire thing. Everyone on ventrilo simultaneously went "whoa."

      Blizzard has really delivered.

      --
      Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, watch it -- I'm huge!
    11. Re:Everyone who cares.... by Vexorian · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It may not be stuff that matters, but it does sound like news for nerds.

      --

      Copyright infringement is "piracy" in the same way DRM is "consumer rape"
    12. Re:Everyone who cares.... by duckInferno · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I'd personally like to see some hard info on what they're running under the hood. Hundreds of servers, each supporting tens of thousands of players. During stress testing they had over 300 players in one small area fighting without a hiccup (try that in any FPS game!). Every month or two sees more complexity added to the game. We've had two expansion packs double and then triple the content of the original WoW (and all the free patches would add up to another expansion pack's worth easily). Whatever solution they're using must cost a ridiculous amount of money, hardware and manpower to keep running.

      Which is where the monthly fee comes in I guess.

      --
      Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, watch it -- I'm huge!
    13. Re:Everyone who cares.... by colmore · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The most popular game of all time is going to get written about. I don't care either, but I'm not bitching that the news isn't exactly tailored to my interests.

      --
      In Capitalist America, bank robs you!
    14. Re:Everyone who cares.... by Nefarious+Wheel · · Score: 4, Interesting

      So would I. Large IT structures interest me. Huge computer installations fascinate me. Seeing how information structures interrelate and the ebb and flow of cache management gives me a silvery tingle in my eyeballs* (*that's poetry, I'm too old for drugs) and an itch to connect wires to see what they do.

      Whenever my character on WoW gets hung in loot-lag I wonder -- did they run out of journal space (they must use journals, I've seen compelling game-play evidence) or did one of their load balancers chuck a reggie?** (**Australian cultural isomorphism, no apologies). That little moment of invisibility when I log in to Orgrimmar, but can still play -- how much parallelism is going on? How do they link those little conversation bubbles with the chat so quickly - is that my client or the server coordinating that?

      Really, it's like another internal game, second-guessing how they move so many chess pieces around. But geez I would SO love to see a network layout.

      --
      Do not mock my vision of impractical footwear
    15. Re:Everyone who cares.... by duckInferno · · Score: 5, Insightful

      WoW has a bad rep from a very small minority of players who can't manage their lives. I'll treat the argument of whether or not this is WoW's fault, or whether any other fun activity would have done it, as out of scope... I'd like to set the record straight on a few things that may be found insightful by some.

      Myth 1. WoW is a diabolical money sink

      Untrue. At its most expensive, factoring in the initial cost and its expansions to date, WoW averages to about US$18 a month (conservative estimate). I'm not too familiar with costs in America but two trips to the movies and you're spending more. A gourmet pie a week and you're spending more. A few drinks with friends once a month and you're spending more. These activites are once-off entertainment and I highly doubt a pie a week is the extent of one's monthly entertainment bill.

      In addition, there are hundreds of servers, each servicing tens of thousands of players and all of the maintainence, hardware and bandwidth costs that come with it. There's a huge development team fixing the most trivial of bugs and developing new content every couple of months. There's a huge support team consisting of the usual helpdesk drones as well as in-game game masters (who aren't just any old gamer off the street; they're veritable WoW gurus). All of this isn't cheap. All of this isn't possible with a standard once-off $40 game. On the side, a once-off $40 game that captures my attention for more than a month is a rare thing these days.


      Myth 2. WoW is a giant grind

      While this is subjective, I have to argue against it. It is true that the first 50-60 levels of WoW are definitely repetative and while I'm sure Blizzard are aware of this, I don't think their steps to fix it are the right ones (they're just making it faster). However, once past this hurdle you are in the clear. BC raised the bar with quests that capture your interest. Wrath has redefined the bar with some extremely fun quests; they appear to have redesigned their whole philosophy on questing for the latest expansion.

      But that's quests. You can grind if you want, nothing is stopping you, but there are all sorts of things you can do -- especially with the new achievements. There are battlegrounds. There is exploration. There are dungeons. In the middle of doing anything, world PvP can erupt - my favourite kind. At end game you don't need to worry about quests if you don't want to. It's an MMO; there's more things to do than you can shake a stick at. But I do agree on the repetativeness of questing pre-50's before your character has a chance to gain most of its class-defining abilities and gear.


      Myth 3. There is not enough content

      This should probably get merged into #2 but whatever. I was standing outside a fort the other day wondering what I should do. It was Hallow's End, a halloween event that adds a swathe of seasonal content to the game, and I was struck by a thought: if I were to roll a brand new character, I would have more things to do than I could fathom. The achievements system ensures that there's an extra layer to everything you do. The dungeons and reputations and achievements and pvp and large number of unique class/talent combinations would keep you busy for years. The true scope of the game, pre-wrath, suddenly hit me like a stapler hitting the balding head of an IT consultant as he enshrined the virtues of domain-centric networking infrastructure to a technical executive in a large services corporation that delivers banking and financial services to leading institutions across the globe.


      Myth 4. If you play WoW you have no life

      A catch-all argument that can encapsulate any game or non-mainstream entertainment activity on the planet. If you watch anime you have no life. If you collect stamps you have no life. If you go tramping you have no life. It's fun. It's social. It's not getting tanked in a bar at 2am. Get over it. As an aside, I'm a

      --
      Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, watch it -- I'm huge!
    16. Re:Everyone who cares.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      They run Oracle RAC, with a DB shared between battlegroups. Instances and continents can/are split across multiple machines. I know they were running HPUX for the DBs when it first went live, but I think everything's been shifted to Linux now.

    17. Re:Everyone who cares.... by korean.ian · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      The only effect this will have in the real world is that more WoW players will sit on their fat asses for a longer time. On a scale of 1 to 10 for stuff that matters this rates about -4. How the heck did the parent post get modded insightful? Inconceivable.

    18. Re:Everyone who cares.... by Arivia · · Score: 1

      Ahn'kahet is the name of the second one. Can't wait to give it a try in a level.

      --
      The role of the writer is not to say what we can all say, but what we are unable to say. -Anais Nin
    19. Re:Everyone who cares.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't agree that you think that a game is IT, and it might as well be light over the copper wires.

      I haven't been a part of online games since EQ:RoK. The team isn't going to be getting away with the massive arrays in China that they were making hacks from.

      They instantly go for the money in the system, in raids, and what-not.

      I will give a little precaution, that the hacks still could down the entire game world wide.

    20. Re:Everyone who cares.... by caitsith01 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The most popular game of all time is going to get written about. I don't care either, but I'm not bitching that the news isn't exactly tailored to my interests.

      By that logic we should see a lot more stories about The Sims, which contrary to your suggestion is actually more popular than WoW...

      This story would be fairly pointless no matter which game it was about. "Game player beats expansion pack for game" is not exactly news no matter how you look at it.

      --
      Read Pynchon.
    21. Re:Everyone who cares.... by duckInferno · · Score: 1

      We managed with a group of kara-geared 71's and 72's, give it a shot :)

      --
      Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, watch it -- I'm huge!
    22. Re:Everyone who cares.... by fractoid · · Score: 1

      I think you mean "EVEN an imbecile could play WoW". And it's true - even a bear of very little brain could get to level cap and have fun in some of the dungeons. And yet there are entire forums dedicated to theorycraft which keep the more cerebral of us WoW players entertained. What makes WoW impressive is its incredibly wide appeal.

      --
      Rampant carbon sequestration destroyed the Dinosaurs' tropical paradise. I'm here to help repair the damage.
    23. Re:Everyone who cares.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Everyone who got off the boat or zeppelin just stopped and went "Wow." for a few minutes. And then we hit the dungeons - the third of the starter dungeons, Azjol-Nerub, has to be played to be believed. It's half an hour of terrifying beauty, of wriggling mummified *things* laying between two golden mushrooms in caverns man was never meant to see, had never seen. You look down vistas swarming with spiders crawling over the most beautiful architecture yet.

      Visit the nearest botanic garden in your city, you'll see that caverns, spiders and ants are much more detailed than that. And there are no dragons.

      And real water bump mapping? Oh.. such a beautiful thing.

      And real women? They cast lots of invisible spells. And are much more beautiful and detailed than ever.

      Oh, that and you need to get laid.

    24. Re:Everyone who cares.... by fractoid · · Score: 1
      Where are my mod points when I need them? This is an excellent post.

      If your life kinda sucks... you're in a stale marriage, your social skills suck, your job sucks... basically, if this virtual life is better than your real life... there's going to be a problem.

      Yes. And MMOs are just the latest thing that dissatisfied people use for an escape. They used to disappear off into movies, records, comic books, sci-fi, D&D, all of which have been demonized in the past. The fundamental difference is that MMOs are (a) interactive, and hence a lot more immersive, and (b) real-time, with no pause button. This leads to the classic case of the wife walking into the room, demanding your attention just as your raid has pulled boss X, and when they don't instantly get it (due to point (b)) complaining that you "care more" about "the computer" than about them.* Strangely, if it's the last segment of some crime drama on TV it's perfectly OK to just hold up a hand and say "shush, come back in 10 minutes". But I digress (and rant)...

      On a related topic, you'll find many mature aspects of the game. References to "controversial" subjects such as drugs, sex, rape, genocide etc as well as the arguably more damaging exploding corpses, violent sprays of blood and the odd tool shouting bigoted shit over a major channel.

      I spent about 10 minutes on Saturday feeding the corpses of freshly slain crusaders to a cageful of rats. I dunno if that's exactly "mature" but it's certainly not for kids.

      * Yes, I'm talking about a particular High King Maulgar pull here. I was meant to be tanking HKM, we would have wiped anyway though because the tank on Kiggler brought him over to me and got himself feared.

      --
      Rampant carbon sequestration destroyed the Dinosaurs' tropical paradise. I'm here to help repair the damage.
    25. Re:Everyone who cares.... by duckInferno · · Score: 1

      Thanks! Good point with the comparison to a TV show -- if only there was a pause button. Heh, come to think of it, that wouldn't be too hard for blizzard to implement for raids/instances... though whether they would or not is debatable (it'd probably make things easier as the leader could pause the game at crucial intervals to bark orders).

      I'd add point (c) to that; they're quite social. They differ from other media due to interactivity yes, but they also differ (apart from DnD) in that you can build complex relationships (ranging from "hi wanna kill X" to "/kneel ; will you marry me?") that help to put the nail on RL's coffin.

      --
      Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, watch it -- I'm huge!
    26. Re:Everyone who cares.... by blahplusplus · · Score: 1

      "During stress testing they had over 300 players in one small area fighting without a hiccup (try that in any FPS game!)."

      You can't compare an MMO to an FPS, MMO's play mechanics are severely restricted and neutered compared to real-time games.

    27. Re:Everyone who cares.... by Arivia · · Score: 1

      Yeah, a green from Howling Fjord just shot my defense through the roof, so I think I can give it a go now.

      --
      The role of the writer is not to say what we can all say, but what we are unable to say. -Anais Nin
    28. Re:Everyone who cares.... by Fourier404 · · Score: 1

      10 million people play this game, that's about the same number of people who use linux, and we have a lot more articles about that floating around.

    29. Re:Everyone who cares.... by Mattsson · · Score: 1

      And still, 90% of the game is killing some creature for someone or fetching something for someone while walking/riding/flying around at a snails pace.

      --
      /.Mattsson - My native language is not English, so please don't whine over linguistic errors. (That's lame anyway...)
    30. Re:Everyone who cares.... by Arivia · · Score: 1

      I love visiting botanical gardens. My house is actually five minutes' walk from one. And yes, there is more beauty in water than in any game. You may find it easier to understand what I was saying if you think of it in the cultural discourse of video games as an experience, not overall.

      --
      The role of the writer is not to say what we can all say, but what we are unable to say. -Anais Nin
    31. Re:Everyone who cares.... by Arivia · · Score: 1

      So? Many other games beyond WoW are like that in concrete objectives. It's what you do with them that counts. And movement is far from slow - there's a nice tiered progression of you getting faster as you have to go farther.

      --
      The role of the writer is not to say what we can all say, but what we are unable to say. -Anais Nin
    32. Re:Everyone who cares.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Most popular game of all time? Not even close. Most popular COMPUTER game? Perhaps. Depends on what you count. I doubt it, but it is possible. The Sims sold 16 Million. Wii Sports has 31 million. And the grand champ? Super Mario on the NES with over 40 million. And that's computer games, none can come close to Monopoly (pushing 1 billion players).

    33. Re:Everyone who cares.... by myowntrueself · · Score: 2, Funny

      New Quests: there's about 1000 across Northrend. (and fyi, the last big patch before WotLK content - 2.4 - added about 50, 30 of which were repeatable every day.)

      Yes, its true!!!

      With the advent of the 2.4 patch players are able to do the same 30 quests every single day!

      Its so cool! You get to complete *exactly* the same quests! Every single day!!!! Over and over again!!! The fun never ends!

      Ummm... Yeah ok so that was kind of a troll, assuming that you see the irony.

      --
      In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
    34. Re:Everyone who cares.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You lost me at gourmet pie.

    35. Re:Everyone who cares.... by master_p · · Score: 1

      Not much different than HL2 episode 2 then...there is a section where Gordon Freeman has to go down deep inside a cavern.

    36. Re:Everyone who cares.... by ockegheim · · Score: 1

      And still you clicked on "Read More" link and posted a comment. Like a little old lady scanning her buff young neighbour's house with binoculars in order to get offended.

      --
      I’m old enough to remember 16K of memory being described as “whopping”
    37. Re:Everyone who cares.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It may be obvious to me but not to others, so... the blurbs are there to discern if you are interested in the story or not. If not, don't click it.

      It never occurred to me that there are people that feel obligated to click on EVERY story to read it, then comment on it. Think of the stories as Random Access stories. You don't have to read every one of them to get to the one you want to read.

      And if you find yourself hitting F5 in anticipation of new stories, for God's sake... put another news site in your rotation! :D

    38. Re:Everyone who cares.... by KillerBob · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Personally, I like the constant reminders that the game doesn't take itself seriously. It's full of humour and pop culture references that I never really saw in other games. I almost fell out of my chair the first time I saw the statue at Janeiro Point, off Booty Bay....

      It's a game that keeps itself light-hearted, while still providing a rich and detailed experience for the roleplayers, and a ton of content for the hardcore gamers.

      Though we got our first level 80 Death Knight on Saturday morning, on my server, and when I see stuff like that, I have to ask whether some of these players are planning on going outside once in a while... For the non-players, DK is the *new* class that came with the expansion. You start at level 55, so unlike the other classes, you had 25 end-game levels to grind out in a day and a half, not just 10... and they did it before some of the other classes hit 80. >.>

      --
      If you believe everything you read, you'd better not read. - Japanese proverb
    39. Re:Everyone who cares.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here's something for you to try. When you see a story that doesn't interest you, you skip it and get on with your life. I've found it to work well.

    40. Re:Everyone who cares.... by Skye16 · · Score: 1

      Easy solution to that; become a fat young neighbor. After a while, she'll get so horrified she'll either a: die or b: stop looking.

      Either way, it's good for everybody!

    41. Re:Everyone who cares.... by Skye16 · · Score: 1

      I'm imagining he's talking about Pizza, but now I can't get Pie pie out of my head.

      Thanks a lot, jerk. I'll be salivating all day long until I can get home and make a freakin' pie.

      As if I didn't have other things planned for the night >.

    42. Re:Everyone who cares.... by Sagara+Sozou · · Score: 1

      WoW has a bad reputation from a large number of former players that realized just how bad it was for their lives. Every former player I've spoken with agrees that the game took too much time from real friends and family and since they *could* manage to manage their lives they quit.

      It's a massive time sink if you want to be anything other than the mythic "casual player," which I don't think I've ever met. If you start off slow you get caught up in something, whether it be raiding, PvP, economics or guild politics.

      --
      Those poor bastards, they have us surrounded. Now we can fire at them in all directions!
    43. Re:Everyone who cares.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Think of 11 million customers

      While I do agree with you that WoW is relevant here from a technical standpoint, Blizzard does not have 11 million customers. They have had a total of approximately 11 million accounts created since they launched the game.
      On any given server, there are generally less than 10k players logged on during peak play time. While this still is impressive, it is not nearly as impressive as having a single persistent world with 11 million active players all logged on at once.

      I do find it rather hilarious that after all the hype & wait, the 'expansion' contains little more than any annual patch update. I certainly wouldn't pay for it.

    44. Re:Everyone who cares.... by AndroSyn · · Score: 1

      Play WoW enough and you will!

    45. Re:Everyone who cares.... by agrounds · · Score: 1

      I ran it on Friday morning with a PuG of SSC/Gruul/Mag geared 71s and 72s. It was not bad. The third boss that has you fighting images of your own party was refreshingly cool.

      Good drops in there too. I replaced my T5 priest gloves with one of the boss drops.

    46. Re:Everyone who cares.... by tdcarrol · · Score: 1

      The sims may have more units sold, but it does not have more man hours played. You might as well say that minesweeper/solitaire is the most popular game of all time. All three games have a valid claim, with the correct criteria.

    47. Re:Everyone who cares.... by neafevoc · · Score: 1

      I keep calling the 2nd one "The Old Kingdom" since I can never remember the actual name :)

      Anyway, Ahn'kahet is contrasts Azjol-Nerub in that it's twice as long. The last boss is one to remember considering that it uses the new phasing tech in a method that you see something different form the rest of your group. It's really cool :)

    48. Re:Everyone who cares.... by quietlysubversive · · Score: 1

      I'm the mythic casual player. I only play for about 1-2 hours a week at best. Once in a while, I'll put in a solid 5hrs over a weekend if I get the urge to finally level up.

      Got a level 65 rogue I started back in 2005. My goal for the summer and fall was trying to get to lvl 70 before WOTLK came out. So much for that!

      --
      ----(o)----
    49. Re:Everyone who cares.... by ubrgeek · · Score: 1

      So what? So was Joust.

      --
      Bark less. Wag more.
    50. Re:Everyone who cares.... by Endo13 · · Score: 1

      You start at level 55, so unlike the other classes, you had 25 end-game levels to grind out in a day and a half, not just 10... and they did it before almost all of the other classes hit 80. >.>

      Fixed that for you. On my server (Stormreaver US) the first person of either faction to hit 80 was around 4-5AM eastern time Sunday morning, according to my friend. (I don't know, I wasn't online when it happened. I did see the first Forsaken hit 80 early that afternoon.) You can be relatively certain if that DK hit 80 on Saturday morning he was using the instance tap exploit like mad.

      --
      There is no -1 Disagree mod. Slashdot.org/faq defines mod options. USE IT.
    51. Re:Everyone who cares.... by immcintosh · · Score: 1

      I think all the focus is on raiding because people are used to, once they achieve max level, not having anything else to do with themselves in the game. Raiding for PvE, arena for PvP, or... maybe grinding out thousands of crafting materials? I haven't played WotLK and don't really intend to, but that's how I remember it being in the last expansion--you hit 70 and then... not much.

      Also, I'm afraid Fallout 3 has spoiled me when it comes to fantastic design and attention to detail. A new bar has been set for games that want to consider themselves immersive!

      I'll be first to admit it's entirely possible that this time around things are different. People are used getting a certain experience from Blizzard though, and I think are most likely to judge the new expansion based on past experiences with similar products. I know that's the case for me at least.

    52. Re:Everyone who cares.... by Endo13 · · Score: 1

      Wrong. The numbers they give (most recent being 11 million) are currently active subscribed accounts. That doesn't necessarily mean 11 million players (multiple accounts per player) and it certainly doesn't mean 11 million people playing at the same time, but it does mean 11 million accounts paying money to play.

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    53. Re:Everyone who cares.... by Endo13 · · Score: 1

      Just had to comment on your "Myth 1."

      Most people don't realize just how untrue that myth is, and that in fact in most cases the opposite is true. Any time you're playing WoW, you're not going to be doing something else that costs money. I have friends that refuse to play pay-per-month games on principle. You know what they end up doing instead? They end up buying a new PC game every month or two. I pay $15 per month, they pay $25-$50. And my computer game gives social interaction.

      This weekend alone I saved $16 by playing WoW. How? I went to see one movie with my friends, but they went to see two more. WoW gave me an excuse to opt out. (Actually I probably saved more than that on the overpriced food I didn't buy afterward.)

      Now, lest you get the wrong impression, no I'm not one of the people that has to watch where every five bucks goes. I'll go watch movies and eat out without giving it a second thought. In reality, I wasn't even thinking on the money angle when I opted out of going to watch the movies. It had more to do with the fact that I'd already gone to see one over the weekend, and I just wanted to kick back and chill at home. Nevertheless, I ended up playing WoW and chilling instead of spending the extra dough.

      In the end, the only way playing WoW is not a net savings for most people is if they play less than 10 hours a month and still pay the fee every month. Just about anything else you'd do instead in those 10 hours will cost you more than $15.

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    54. Re:Everyone who cares.... by DRAGONWEEZEL · · Score: 1

      Totally would have to agree. The server requirements for UT3 or TF2 or CS or... you get my idea... are benign compared to the server requirements to run a WORLD even if it's less pretty (or as pretty in the case of CS/TF2) The fact that I can swing a sword a thousand times and never see it "connect" to the mobs I kill in WoW. I am amazed that Arc Missiles for mages now move all over the target, and when they miss they really miss. WoW has done some great things on a HUGE scale that I really can't comprehend.

      Who's going to make the first MMOFPS? I can't wait for World of UT2010! (Class based FPS for WoW?) that would be hot! imagine playing a MMOFPS where your mages magic is based off of aim? that would rock! your frost nova actually traps someone else? Your HUNTER gains quickshot and your sniper rifle fires faster? I think this would be sooo cool.

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    55. Re:Everyone who cares.... by duckInferno · · Score: 1

      In an FPS you have a gun with maybe a couple of firing modes. If you want to get laborous, you have an "aoe" effect like a rocket launcher or something that sprays a ridiculous amount of ammunition along unique vectors. You also have full 3D with jumping and hit boxes and the like.

      What's different in WoW? The hit boxes are simplified. There's dozens of "guns" to choose from and many of them are AOE. A "gunfight" often involves a full 10-20 players (more if it's a raid or alterac valley) toting said guns. I have a net graph going in WoW and the bandwidth in any given pvp fight can get pretty damn high.

      Go to youtube and search for wow duel or wow pvp. Take a look at some of them then tell me that a 15v15 fight in WoW is neutered in complexity compared to fps's.

      --
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    56. Re:Everyone who cares.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just want to point out that WOW has 11 million *active* subscribers. Considering the number of people who have purchased WOW but are not currently active, I'm pretty certain they've sold more than 16 million.

      Wii Sports isn't actually sold, btw. It comes with the console.

    57. Re:Everyone who cares.... by duckInferno · · Score: 1

      I have been informed that pie in america is limited to dessert. Elsewhere, pies usually refer to the savoury variety. A gourmet pie (as I define it) is a fresh pie baked with high quality ingredients (such as high quality steak) from a bakery. As opposed to a cheap-ass pack of 10 mince and cheese pies from the supermarket ;)

      --
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    58. Re:Everyone who cares.... by duckInferno · · Score: 1

      If they could manage their lives, they'd play reasonable amount of time and not let it interfere. Quitting is preferable to letting something encroach on your life but it's still an inferior solution.

      My guild is intermixed with casual players and hardcore players. The most casual log on once a month and still enjoy it. The most hardcore supplement our guild raids with pick-up-group raids.

      --
      Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, watch it -- I'm huge!
    59. Re:Everyone who cares.... by duckInferno · · Score: 1

      Very true. I have the exact same types of friends (real and in other games) that won't touch any subscription based model and end up paying 2-3 times as much for similar entertainment. My bank balance loves me :D

      --
      Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, watch it -- I'm huge!
    60. Re:Everyone who cares.... by duckInferno · · Score: 1

      News for nerds. Stuff that matters.

      For a significant chunk of ./s subscriber base, this satisifes both criteria.

      --
      Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, watch it -- I'm huge!
    61. Re:Everyone who cares.... by duckInferno · · Score: 1

      I just noticed I put the last three myths as "myth 5".... .

      --
      Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, watch it -- I'm huge!
    62. Re:Everyone who cares.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No.

      For all the pomp and circumstance about this stupid game among stupid people, very few people from the "real world" actually play it, and far fewer play it to the insane extent the the losers mentioned in this article do.

      Removed from the context of the video game industry, it's nothing. The NFL, MLB, NBA all crush it in size, scope, and fan base. If every single person who ever created an account was in America, you'd have to meet almost 30 Americans on average to find 1 who'd every played, and you'd never meet anybody among the other 5.6 billion people on the planet who did.

      I wish people would stop venerating this idiotic game as some big social impactor. It's big.... for an online video game. It's nothing compared to most other aspects of modern entertainment, including most other wildly popular video games.

    63. Re:Everyone who cares.... by praxis · · Score: 1

      First off, I agree that it's not that large of a social phenonmenon in context of all of humanity. I'm not sure if you implied that it gets a greater share of media coverage than it should with your "For all the pomp and circumstance about this stupid game among stupid people". You are saying that among the demographic of stupid people (however you want to classify that subjective measure) it gets too much "pomp and circumstance." In any case, you imply that among the stupid people demographic it gets too much mention...that's how I read it anyhow.

      Then you go on to say that it's nothing in the context of bigger things. Things like sports. Again, keeping ourselves to the demographic of stupid people if we are to draw any valid comparisions, I must agree that WoW get's less coverage than major American sports in America. Although you mention other's on the planet, let's ignore then since most probably have no idea what MLB stands for. Now, back to your assertion that it gets too much pomp and circumstance, I think it gets a normal preportion. WoW does not have a channel on television devoted to it. Sports do. You assert that more Americans are interested in sports and WoW, and that's probably true (I'm going by instinct I have no numbers on number of people interested in sports...we can't count players since EPSN like things are for viewing and talking about not participating so interest is harder to judge than subscriber numbers, but hey we'll do our best) and yet there MUCH MORE pomp and circumstance when it comes to observing other's play sports.

      Now, I'm sorry I tend to be a bit winded and stream-of-consciousness, but let's get to my real point. It concerns "It's nothing compared to most other aspects of modern entertainment, including most other wildly popular video games."

      What widly popular video game has sold enough copies to make 12 million subscribers insignificant?

    64. Re:Everyone who cares.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I missed the part where you are having lots of sex.

      Just saying.

    65. Re:Everyone who cares.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What widly popular video game has sold enough copies to make 12 million subscribers insignificant?

      11 million was the last faked number they released with no context or methodology.

      11 million subscribers? Well, none since you're artificially limiting the scope to subscriptions which pretty much limits us to MMOs, and I've already acknowledged that it's a very successful MMO.

      Video games? Multiple versions of the Sims, Mario games, and Pokemon come to mind. Some of them probably outsell WoW 2:1 or more.

      The point is that it's a video game - a successful video game - and, as such, no matter how much the impotent, tiny-fisted rage of the multi-boxers tries to influence it otherwise, most people don't care about it at all. Most people have never played it, most people will never play it, many people have never even heard of it. It's a mediocre video game with a small, devoted following that will have less of an impact on the world of entertainment than televised golf has.

      I don't know if you read the post I replied to, but what I'm saying is that it's a video game and not a particularly interesting one at that. It's not truly broadly popular like the Sims, it's not innovative like Planescape: Torment, it's not technologically impressive like Half-Life 2. It's a mediocre video game that struck a bland balance to broadly appeal to people with no particularly strong interest in any one aspect of role playing or gaming, and that has made it massively financially successful, it's only notable feature.

      Give it props for its success as a video game, give it props for it's massive success as an MMO, but don't act like it's the top of the video gaming heap, much less some significant social phenomenon. You've got a couple of million bored people entertaining themselves with it, a handful of pathetic losers living in it, and then everybody else, which is the extreme majority, who have never even played it. Nothing more, nothing less.

    66. Re:Everyone who cares.... by Reapy · · Score: 1

      Sweet, I never lived around a botanical garden. I've been to a few, they are neat, but they are small and boring. Flowers, trees, bugs. Snore, they are all over the world. Whilst I would like to afford the couple hundred dollars and have enough vacation time off work to fly to say finland to see real Fjords, or the grand canyon, or any such giant panoramas, I still have an equally exciting moment walking into a game designers vision for the first time when done by talented artists. It's like having a painting you can walk around in. I latterly said out loud "holy shit" when I walked through the barrier into ice crown and stared with my mouth open. I had a moment like this on every new zone I walked into in northrend. I didn't have this moment in outlands or vanilla wow btw. The zones really are something to be seen, even if they aren't real.

      A cool experience in my living room to break up the time between work, can't complain about that. Well, you can. I'm just so sorry your vista's are only limited to the ones that exist in the real world. Try enjoying both for once.

    67. Re:Everyone who cares.... by Reapy · · Score: 1

      I think if your wife is understand and you can explain this to her in a way that won't put her on the defensive, things can work. But I guess it depends on the person. My wife really isn't into wow or gaming too much, will occasionally go "cool" when i show her something, but goes right back to doing her thing while I'm wrapped up in my thing. When I started playing wow, it took away the pause button, which brought up situations like you mentioned, but after we talked it out, she knows when I'm busy raiding that I'll be short with her cause I'm already involved with something else. I mean its like, I play volleyball, and when the ball get served, I'd never see her come running out on the court to tell me something unless it was super important.

      But yeah, just like tv etiquette, and sporting event etiquette, wow/gaming etiquette has to be learned. It's easy to walk into the room and know when a tv show is culminating, or the ball is in the air and the game is happening, and wait to talk. It's hard when they come in and have no clue whats going on, even if they can seen the screen, to know that you are busy and not grab at your attention. I had a few problems where I would be stressed, listening to instructions on a boss that I didn't read up on (la la lazy), and I needed to listen for like 5 min, when all of a sudden the wife wants to talk. So I' give her the finger in the air, 1 sec. Then she would stand there and wait to see whats wrong and be upset that I'm shooting her down so fast, which would just result in me getting more agitated that I cant pay attention while i'm frantically waving my hands like give me a second! Resulting in a stupid fight I'm sure we've all had before.

      But if you talk it out, you just learn to deal with each other's habits. She knows now that if I do the 1 finger quicky thing that I'm doing something that needs 100% of my attention, then I go get her as soon as I am available to talk, and we talk. If it's a scheduled raid time, she knows I'll be busy for a few hours, and sometimes goes so far as to grab food for me or something, which i'm super grateful for.

      This is the same respect I give her if she is on the phone (easily distracted), rapt at the end of a movie, or super into reading on a webpage about something, or just wants to take a nap and be left alone.

      I think these moments shouldn't be 100% of the time, cause then why be married, but, understanding what your partner is doing, and that they can't always be at your beck and call, while still being respectful, can go a long way towards making the house a happy place to be. Of coarse, lots of fights have more to do with other crap, then what you are actually fighting about.

      Anyway good luck, just posting here to let you know that it can actually work :)

  2. Please keep me informed by Idimmu+Xul · · Score: 4, Insightful

    whenever anyone else makes it to level 80, I really don't want to miss any of their important in game breakthroughs.

    Stuff that matters, indeed.

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    The problem with slashdot is that most of its users were bullied and stuffed into lockers as kids!
    1. Re:Please keep me informed by Aeonite · · Score: 4, Funny

      The only thing better than grinding to 80 is vicariously experiencing the grind through the achievements of strangers.

    2. Re:Please keep me informed by Idimmu+Xul · · Score: 1

      I get to save money this way, but still experience the joy of the final screenshot of the successful raiding party!

      --
      The problem with slashdot is that most of its users were bullied and stuffed into lockers as kids!
    3. Re:Please keep me informed by myrdos2 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I find the Penny Arcade comic sums up my feelings on the expansion: clicky

      Seriously - how many areas are just the same area over and over again with different graphics? The towns and mountains and such are in different places, but by level 10 you've pretty much seen all the gameplay there is to see.

      I predict Northrend will have individual monsters slowly roaming back and forth over small areas of ground. Occasionally there will be a few monsters standing together. Virtually every quest will involve killing X of them. To step things up, you can kill difficult elite monsters while in a group. The combat will be so simple that an 8-line perl script can do it.

      When you try to imagine the game without the graphics, you realize how little gameplay there actually is. It might be feasible to make a nethack-style game that captures every element of WoW gameplay, but that would be a very dull game indeed.

    4. Re:Please keep me informed by BlueCodeWarrior · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Disclaimer: I used to play WoW.

      This is still interesting news to anyone that follows games. World of Warcraft is one of the most popular video games ever. I know several people who don't play video games, but they do play WoW. To hear about how some people absolutely demolished the new content is pretty cool. Blizzard spent how much time making this expansion, and then it all got run through in less than 30 hours? That's nuts.

    5. Re:Please keep me informed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Doubtless everyone here has seen this before, but: http://www.progressquest.com

    6. Re:Please keep me informed by Aeonite · · Score: 1

      Notably, you have also just summed up D&D 4th Edition.

    7. Re:Please keep me informed by Korin43 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Except with all the role playing removed, and everything dumbed down. The only thing entertaining about DnD is when you think of creative solutions to problems. In WoW, the spells all do something specific (create item in inventory, damage monster, heal party member..). In DnD you can choose how the spells work. Also, in DnD, things stay dead.

    8. Re:Please keep me informed by SeekerDarksteel · · Score: 1

      You've never raided, have you?

      You've summed up gameplay up to the cap correctly, but the game changes drastically in hard dungeons and raids. You can argue it's still repetitive, and to some extent it is, but it's no longer as simple as soloing is.

      --
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    9. Re:Please keep me informed by xouumalperxe · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Blizzard spent how much time making this expansion, and then it all got run through in less than 30 hours? That's nuts.

      Nobody "ran it through" in under 30 hours. What some people did was say "we beat what we consider the important bits, so we call the game beat". A good analogy would perhaps be completing the Terran campaign in Starcraft and saying "I beat the game, because what matters to me is the Terran campaign". SK/Nihilum probably skipped much of the "leveling" content, decidedly skipped most instances, and rushed straight into the raid game.

    10. Re:Please keep me informed by EvolutionsPeak · · Score: 5, Informative

      They didn't demolish new content. They demolished content they've been playing for months on the beta server.

    11. Re:Please keep me informed by Kjella · · Score: 5, Funny

      The combat will be so simple that an 8-line perl script can do it.

      Considering you could write an operating system in five, I guess that's pretty complex.

      --
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    12. Re:Please keep me informed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dude, an 8-line perl script can do anything.

    13. Re:Please keep me informed by Faylone · · Score: 4, Funny

      If you assume enemies will stay dead in DnD, I bet your first encounter with a necromancer will be very messy.

    14. Re:Please keep me informed by Bozzio · · Score: 4, Funny

      +7 Charisma
      -100 Social Life

      --
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    15. Re:Please keep me informed by _Sprocket_ · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I predict Northrend will have individual monsters slowly roaming back and forth over small areas of ground. Occasionally there will be a few monsters standing together. Virtually every quest will involve killing X of them. To step things up, you can kill difficult elite monsters while in a group. The combat will be so simple that an 8-line perl script can do it.

      Yes, yes. And every computer game can be reduced to punching a few buttons and / or clicking on the mouse in a repetitive fashion. Yet despite this simplification, they have always been fun.

      More on this later.

      When you try to imagine the game without the graphics, you realize how little gameplay there actually is. It might be feasible to make a nethack-style game that captures every element of WoW gameplay, but that would be a very dull game indeed.

      And that's selling the graphics really short. Sure the graphics are a big part of WoW. Blizzard does a really nice job with it. Some people don't care. My group runs around sight-seeing.

      I'm not saying that something more wouldn't be great. I miss a lot of UO and various MUDs I've played in the past. Indeed - WoW is much simpler than these environments. And much more restricted. But again - it doesn't mean it's not fun.

      So why is it fun? Well - to begin with there's nothing wrong with traditional escort, FedEx, or even kill quests. If they're done right. WoW's quests usually have some reasoning behind it. They work to expand the storyline if that's what you want to get in to (I do). They put you in to the content and give you a reason to interact with your environment. Nothing wrong with it.

      But yeah - kill quests alone have limits. This expansion pack is introducing new elements such as vehicles that you get to toy with fairly soon in to the content. There ARE different aspects being rolled in to the quests. My group is still pretty early in to the content and we've gotten to experience some of it already. And we're having fun.

    16. Re:Please keep me informed by Repossessed · · Score: 1

      Since when does 4th edition allow for creative uses of spells?

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    17. Re:Please keep me informed by cratermoon · · Score: 5, Informative

      Mod Parent up. For whatever cracked reason, these guys took their guild to the beta server and spent hours and days learning the content and getting them cleared. To say they conquered all the raid content in 3 days ignores that they already knew how to do it, they just repeated it "live". Anyway, good for them, with the completion of all the starting raid content by unrealistic obsessives, we can now start paying attention to the progression of the guilds that still live in the real world and started learning the content from live release day.

    18. Re:Please keep me informed by _Sprocket_ · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Disclaimer: I used to play WoW.

      I know several people who don't play video games, but they do play WoW. ...

      To hear about how some people absolutely demolished the new content is pretty cool. Blizzard spent how much time making this expansion, and then it all got run through in less than 30 hours? That's nuts.

      Pssst. If your friends are playing WoW, they're playing a video game. Don't tell them though. It might upset some emotional balance and put them in to shock.

      Also - note that WoW is not linear. They did not go the same path as everyone else. They did not do everything that everyone else has done. Blizzard's time spent making the expansion was not wasted on 30hrs of grinding.

      That people will take knowledge gained from Beta and apply it to a streamlined race to hit a particular goal isn't all that new. Its kind of interesting. Sure. But this only impacts others trying to participate in the same race. For most people playing, it doesn't mean much beyond the trivial. After all, life itself isn't defined by the Guinness Book of World Records. And chess remains fairly popular despite the long history of chess masters also playing the game.

    19. Re:Please keep me informed by Tom · · Score: 3, Interesting

      When you try to imagine the game without the graphics, you realize how little gameplay there actually is. It might be feasible to make a nethack-style game that captures every element of WoW gameplay, but that would be a very dull game indeed.

      The one thing that Nethack lacks, that would make it an instant WoW-Killer, is multiplayer.

      Seriously. Multiplayer-Nethack? That's 10 times the gameplay, depth and challenge of WoW right there.

      --
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    20. Re:Please keep me informed by chromatic · · Score: 2, Interesting

      When your DM allows it.

      I saw a recent session where a third level wizard used Burning Hands to set some cots on fire in an enclosed room. The party closed the door and left... only to run into an ambush. The rogue character lured some enemies back to the room and used the smoke for superior cover, allowing several sneak attacks.

      This was not a planned fire; the wizard is a pyro.

    21. Re:Please keep me informed by nedlohs · · Score: 1

      Did they drop all the illusion spells???

    22. Re:Please keep me informed by Bazar · · Score: 3, Interesting

      When you try to imagine the game without the graphics, you realize how little gameplay there actually is.

      As opposed to say first-person shooters, you remove the graphics from that game, and your left with what?

      You are in a room with 3 first-aid kits, a player Zero is camping the Quad power up and has spotted you entering the room
      Quake> Kill Zero
      Zero was killed by Bazar, your score is now 5
      Quake> Camp Quad

      Ultimately most people play games to have fun. Not everyone appreciates a game where to kill a target you have to have done computations in calculus to plot the best path of attack, or in the case of nethack, play such a perfect game as a tiny screwup can result in death.
      Some people want to just be able to run up to something and press the kill button.

      For those seeking a greater challenge, they can do PvP or raids.

      PvP is where your fighting another player, its as complex as it can get as its a game of attacks and counters. Success is usually a mixture of gear and skill.

      Or you could raid with other players, the encounters are more challenging and require things like good timing. You could also pick up a leadership, helping coordinate members of the team. Someone needs to lead the raid, the tanks, the healers, and the dps.

      Ultimately what I'm trying to say is there is there IS a rich tapestry of gameplay. But if your just out killing stuff by yourself, you not likely to see much of it.

      Do some raiding, or enter some battlegrounds for pvp.
      Most of all MMORPG games are a social game, make/get some friends and/or join a guild, and you'll be having far more fun.

      --
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    23. Re:Please keep me informed by duckInferno · · Score: 1

      These people aren't going to sit around now going "whelp, that's that" and go do something else. They've experienced 30 hours of an expansion that has a good year of content to enjoy, not including the content patches to come.

      --
      Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, watch it -- I'm huge!
    24. Re:Please keep me informed by duckInferno · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Blizzard dropped the ball between levels 1 and 50: it's very misrepresentative of the "real" WoW. Many play it to 10, think "okay this is getting repetative/boring", try a different character, find no difference and then make a post on slashdot.

      At 60+, you will notice that not only do the ten classes have significantly different playstyles and things going for them, but that they also have three different talent trees. For most of the ten classes, a switch from one tree to another will again completely change your game.

      To address the comic joke: it's spot on... often. However, having completed an expansion zone over the weekend, I can tell you that while there are many of the "same" quests, there are also some crazy new styles. Perhaps most significantly are the additions of "vehicles" to the game, which are worked into a lot of the quests. One example is riding a mammoth and using its special abilities to destroy another mammoth-mounted npc. Another is using a siege engine to shelter your team mates from incoming cannon fire (vehicles that are also manned by players). I've been playing the game for years and the creativity of the quests in Wrath are a complete breath of fresh air. The poking in the comics is, imo, unfair.

      Assuming you can get past the first 50 levels. ;)

      --
      Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, watch it -- I'm huge!
    25. Re:Please keep me informed by steveaustin1971 · · Score: 1

      uh, I beg to differ, but FPS games require alot more skill these days then "quake" did. Games like the battlefield games are infinately more complex than player A kills player B, and you absolutely must be able to play as a squads within your team in order to win on any decent server. I tried a few different RPG's and it always ends up with me realizing how much time I am wasting doing the same thing over and over again, and uninstalling the game. There was ONE RPG I got hooked on for a while called Requiem: Bloodymare and it was free, better looking and far more interesting than WOW, but hell its obviously got a following... I just don't get how they get people to shell out for monthly subscriptions when they can play a ton of similar and I dare say BETTER rpgs for free. Is it just the "in" rpg or something?

    26. Re:Please keep me informed by SYSS+Mouse · · Score: 1

      I find the Penny Arcade comic sums up my feelings on the expansion: clicky Seriously - how many areas are just the same?

      When one of the level-80 raid is a repeat of the same raid (which is no longer available) at level 60 - it is just the same old Warcrack.

    27. Re:Please keep me informed by LandDolphin · · Score: 1

      From the Player Handbook, yes. But they've added them back in through a supplement.

      --
      Spelling and Grammar errors have been added to this post for your enjoyment
    28. Re:Please keep me informed by nleaf · · Score: 3, Insightful
      You can simplify everything down to a few repetitious tasks.

      "Seriously - how many [FPSes] are just the same [game] over and over again with different graphics? ...but by [the time you've killed something] you've pretty much seen all of the gameplay there is to see."

      "Seriously - how many [versions of Solitaire] are just the same [game] over and over again with different graphics? ...but by [the time you've put one card on top of another] you've pretty much seen all the gameplay there is to see."

      "Seriously - how [much porn is] just the same [thing] over and over again with different graphics? ...but by [the time you've seen one pair of boobs] you've pretty much seen all the gameplay there is to see."

      Ultimately, you can simplify all of human experience down to repetition if you want. The definition of gameplay and fun differs by person. Even though WoW doesn't fit your narrow definition of fun, it seems to work for a lot of people. Look at the Penny Arcade comic you linked--sure, it pokes fun at the expansion, but I think Gabe is still pretty heavily involved in the game.

    29. Re:Please keep me informed by Draek · · Score: 1

      As opposed to say first-person shooters, you remove the graphics from that game, and your left with what?

      On deathmatch? the skill and reflexes required to aim your gun at your enemy, while moving around so that he can't do the same for you, and shoot. Of course, also paying attention to your surroundings, nothing worse than jumping on the business end of a third player's shotgun while dodging your opponent's rocket.

      On team-based FPSs like Team Fortress 2, a *whole* lotta more.

      C'mon, seriously, you can't accuse the GP of over-simplifying WoW then later say that FPSs without the graphics are basically adventure games with lots of camping. Go and play TF2 on a populated server, and after you get your ass handed to you and get to the bottom of the score board, come back and tell me it's just "Quake with prettier graphics".

      --
      No problem is insoluble in all conceivable circumstances.
    30. Re:Please keep me informed by Draek · · Score: 1

      At 60+, you will notice that not only do the ten classes have significantly different playstyles and things going for them, but that they also have three different talent trees. For most of the ten classes, a switch from one tree to another will again completely change your game.

      I've never played WoW (yeah, what am I doing on Slashdot), but I've always liked the Warcraft universe so I'll ask: how difficult is it to switch from one skill tree to another? if I reach lv65, dunno, being a frontline Sword-using offensive warrior, and I want to change to an Axe-wearing tank, how do I do it? do I have to create a completely new character from scratch?

      --
      No problem is insoluble in all conceivable circumstances.
    31. Re:Please keep me informed by Cowmonaut · · Score: 1

      A fair amount of WoW players had never raided until Kharazan or what ever in Burning Crusade. I'm sure its fun, if you want to spend all of your time getting ready to do that. I personally have reached a point where that is no longer fun. I want to do stuff now.

      This is why I largely enjoy WAR over WoW for an MMO, or even EVE. In WAR, I can do everything from the get go. Second I make a character, I'm queued up for some PvP. When I'm not in the mood for that, there's a huge enviroment to explore (Note: I love doing PvE in WoW up to a point for the same reason, the main difference being you need a group or raid in WoW to see a lot of it while in WAR the majority you *can* do solo). I have yet to see a game, even including DAOC, that can match the fun of a massive skirmish in an RvR lake. There's something about having 100 players fight over a castle that is fairly entertaining with only a few exceptions.

      But truth be told, this is more why I play games like Oblivion or Fallout 3. Those are RPG video games that you can really just "do whatever" in and have fun doing it from the start. The only part I miss is the interaction with other people.

      Blizzard has me skeptical at this point. Unless you are in a Guild that is fairly organized, and demanding on your time, you pretty much miss out on 1/3rd the content and the content they put the most effort into.

      Burning Crusade damn near killed WoW (at least for the people I associate with. After that was out for 2 months SO many people just quit or started talking about up and coming MMOs and jumped ship later it surprised me) and the feature list of this new expansion read like they heard what was going to be in WAR and made sure they had what everyone was buzzing about.

      I'll just wait for Diablo 3 before I give Blizzard more money. Would of said StarCraft 2, but unless they change the price or the rumor I'm not going to buy 3 versions so I can have all the armies.

    32. Re:Please keep me informed by Cowmonaut · · Score: 1

      I'll second that modern FPS games are more involved than they used to be. They actually require more skill than RPGs as well generally. For the "modern warfare" genre the days of pray and spray are almost entirely gone. Almost...

      I'll say one thing though: It is sad that a lot of FPS single player campaigns are more imersive than most RPGs. COD4 and Crysis come to mind in that regard.

    33. Re:Please keep me informed by duckInferno · · Score: 1

      At the moment, you spend gold to "respec". All your talent points are refunded and you can spend them again as you see fit. The cost is small (1g first time, then 5g +5g increments for subsequent respecs, up to 50g maximum; it goes down by 5g every fortnight since your last respec). Blizzard are planning to add an easy and free way to switch between two talent builds in a future patch.

      It's not like Diablo where you have to create a new character if you mis-spend a talent point ;)

      --
      Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, watch it -- I'm huge!
    34. Re:Please keep me informed by tehshen · · Score: 4, Interesting

      You sure? One of the great things about NetHack is that you have all the time you want before doing anything. Fall down a hole and get surrounded by 'H's, take a break, read up on what you can do, decide the best way to continue. None of this "I must act as soon as possible" stuff.

      --
      Guy asked me for a quarter for a cup of coffee. So I bit him.
    35. Re:Please keep me informed by stonedcat · · Score: 0

      This is a very complicated process which involves placing your current weapon in your bags, then equipping an Axe.
      If you want to take all of the wonder and excitement out of it you can simply right click on said Axe.

      --
      You can't take the sky from me.
    36. Re:Please keep me informed by Cruciform · · Score: 1

      The guilds that live in the "real world"?
      Someone tell Morpheus. This guy swallowed the wrong pill.

    37. Re:Please keep me informed by fractoid · · Score: 1

      When only a tiny percentage of players ever saw Naxxramas at 60 due to poor timing, it just makes sense to bring it back. I did about 1/3 of vanilla Naxx and I'm very keen to go back and see the rest of it.

      --
      Rampant carbon sequestration destroyed the Dinosaurs' tropical paradise. I'm here to help repair the damage.
    38. Re:Please keep me informed by DeadDecoy · · Score: 1

      That's why we should make a nethack game that uses the WoW graphics engine. Imagine how much cooler that would be! :)

    39. Re:Please keep me informed by BlueCodeWarrior · · Score: 1

      This is also true. But the level grind is important to lots of people, so I don't think it necessarily invalidates my point.

    40. Re:Please keep me informed by ildon · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Let me wait 5 hours while the other 1200 people on the server take their turns. Yay I walked one square! Oh no! I'm unconscious! Now I have to wait for those 1200 people to take their 10 turns while I sit here unconscious! I'll be back next week.

      Yeah, definitely a WoW-killer.

    41. Re:Please keep me informed by BlueCodeWarrior · · Score: 1

      Pssst. If your friends are playing WoW, they're playing a video game. Don't tell them though. It might upset some emotional balance and put them in to shock.

      No, they're cool. They're just not usually interested in video games, but they happen to be interested in WoW. They're not the type who dislike games all together, they just tend to prefer board games to video games. The point was that they found WoW to be different than most video games.

      Also - note that WoW is not linear. They did not go the same path as everyone else. They did not do everything that everyone else has done. Blizzard's time spent making the expansion was not wasted on 30hrs of grinding.

      Something that my comment did kinda gloss over. Good call.

      That people will take knowledge gained from Beta and apply it to a streamlined race to hit a particular goal isn't all that new. Its kind of interesting. Sure. But this only impacts others trying to participate in the same race. For most people playing, it doesn't mean much beyond the trivial. After all, life itself isn't defined by the Guinness Book of World Records. And chess remains fairly popular despite the long history of chess masters also playing the game.

      Quite true. But to claim that the Guinness Book doesn't matter just because some people don't care misses the point. Some people do, and so it's news to them.

    42. Re:Please keep me informed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's always multi player Angband (http://www.thangorodrim.net/mangband.html).
      But I agree, NetHack has more features / depth than WoW will ever see.

    43. Re:Please keep me informed by merreborn · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Please keep me informed whenever anyone else makes it to level 80, I really don't want to miss any of their important in game breakthroughs.

      Stuff that matters, indeed.

      This actually represents a very important (albeit not new) lesson to MMO developers: you can spend months designing new content, but players will grind through much of it in hours or days, regardless.

      It's *very* important for fledgling MMO designers to understand that. Many times, single-player and small-scale multiplayer game designers have built elaborate quests that would have taken a week to solve in a single player game, only to find that players solve them in hours. When you design content for an MMO, it's not you, the designer, versus 10,000 individuals, it's you the designer versus a few large and relatively well coordinated mobs.

      Failure to understand that is grounds for major disappointment for all involved.

      Of course, massively multiplayer gaming has been around in one form or another for at least two decades now (if you define "massively" as more than about 100), so this lesson is not a new one, but it never hurts to reinforce it, especially as the MMO market continues to grow, and this particular lesson continues to prove true for larger and larger games.

    44. Re:Please keep me informed by Dobeln · · Score: 1

      "The guilds that live in the "real world"?"

      Yes, WoW. Live to win baby!

    45. Re:Please keep me informed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Blah blah blah, learn the lesson, blah blah blah.

      You didn't provide any suggestions to solve the problem, just banged on about how important it is to learn that there is a problem. Do you have any ideas on how to fix this? Or is just understanding that it's a massive problem good enough for you?

    46. Re:Please keep me informed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Take a look around.
      You are vastly outnumbered by people who DO care.
      But we're all glad you took time to moan.

    47. Re:Please keep me informed by Permutation+Citizen · · Score: 1

      The guild that have done that are not average players. They are not even average hard core gamers. Their goal is to obtain the worlds first kills and they do what must be done for that. They are pros.

      Anyway, that is faster than usual. This time, Blizzard did not even tried to design the new content to slow down the best guilds. They obviously worked for the more casual players first.

      Problem for them is: if they make an instance difficult enough to give an opposition to the top 5 guilds in the world, it is impossible for a normal player, even dedicated to the game.

    48. Re:Please keep me informed by KillerBob · · Score: 1

      C'mon, seriously, you can't accuse the GP of over-simplifying WoW then later say that FPSs without the graphics are basically adventure games with lots of camping. Go and play TF2 on a populated server, and after you get your ass handed to you and get to the bottom of the score board, come back and tell me it's just "Quake with prettier graphics".

      The issue with FPS-type games isn't that, it's all the 13-year old retards who feel the need to rub it in after they kill you. I freely admit that I don't play pvp. At all. I won't touch it with a 10-foot pole, and have stopped playing RPGs if they try to force you into it at any point (I'm looking at you, GW). And one of the main reasons I don't like it is the idiots who send you a whisper or a tell.. "lolz I pwnd j00. j00 suk" after the fact. Tip from the wise, I don't give a fuck about that kind of cock measuring. I don't play that game. Probably has something to do with not being a guy.

      That said, there's idiocy in RPGs as well... just yesterday, I was minding my own business when the following conversation happened....

      idiot: are you a lezbian, or bi, or just straight?
      me: I don't see how that's any of your business.
      idiot: I'm just asking.
      idiot: I'm bi, and looking for a girl.
      me: uh huh. I believe you.
      me: you misspelled 'lesbian', btw.
      idiot: oh
      idiot: so what are you?
      me: I'm in a committed relationship, the nature of which is none of your business.
      idiot: ok ok

      completely out of the blue. No prelude, no small talk, just comes right out and asks if I'm gay. Now... I think pretty much anybody with a brain can tell that this isn't really a girl... he's really got to work on his technique.

      --
      If you believe everything you read, you'd better not read. - Japanese proverb
    49. Re:Please keep me informed by yodleboy · · Score: 1

      Seriously - how many areas are just the same area over and over again with different graphics? The towns and mountains and such are in different places, but by level 10 you've pretty much seen all the gameplay there is to see.

      Sounds suspiciously like Earth...

    50. Re:Please keep me informed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      B S

      do the quest to take back UC, and you will see this xpac is amazing

      im still buzzing off the high i got from doing that quest, wow just WOW!

    51. Re:Please keep me informed by illumin8 · · Score: 1

      The one thing that Nethack lacks, that would make it an instant WoW-Killer, is multiplayer.

      Seriously. Multiplayer-Nethack? That's 10 times the gameplay, depth and challenge of WoW right there.

      Nethack is at it's heart, a turn-based game. I seriously don't want to play multiplayer Nethack unless it is real-time. Can you imagine how infuriating it would be to have to wait for a 3 minute timeout in between turns when someone just went AFK on the other end?

      Also, Nethack has nowhere near the complexity of WoW. I'm sorry, but it doesn't have 3 dimensions. It doesn't care if you're actually facing your opponent, you can cast spells or attack in any direction without turning around. Nethack does have incredibly complex item interaction, but so does WoW.

      Seriously, the PDP-11 called, it wants it's old tired single player text games back.

      --
      "When the president does it, that means it's not illegal." - Richard M. Nixon
    52. Re:Please keep me informed by Guysmiley777 · · Score: 1

      Procedurally generated dungeons? Good god imagine the chaos when people couldn't simply www.wowhead.com up a strategy for everything.

      --
      Coding with assembly is like playing with Legos. Coding an application in assembly is like building a car with Legos.
    53. Re:Please keep me informed by Sobrique · · Score: 1

      Who'd want to do that? They're dead boring.

    54. Re:Please keep me informed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      30 hours is a long time. Some of us like to take our time to enjoy the game, Mr. Jenkins.

    55. Re:Please keep me informed by Sage+Gaspar · · Score: 1

      This is a crack squad of WoW players that honed their skills for months on the beta servers... if you can keep a straight face while reading that :P

      The rest of us mortals will dick around doing quests, playing alts, enjoying the death knight class, doing some PvP, etc., in our leisure time. The one thing you can count on is that powergrinder achievers will keep themselves entertained doing the same thing over and over again for loots. The burn out will come no matter how much content you provide, and they will step aside to some other game whining about how Blizzard is full of shit and making room for a new group of powergrinder achievers.

    56. Re:Please keep me informed by tnk1 · · Score: 1

      Actually, speaking as someone who played WoW when people were still making their way to 60, 1-50 was a lot of fun.

      The major problem with 1-50 now is that you do most of it by yourself now. When I was still playing, I decided my raid needed another healer during Burning Crusade, and as the good guild leader I was, I started leveling a character I hadn't played for a long time so we would have that utility.

      It was boring as hell. It wasn't that the quests had changed or even that there weren't new ones that I either missed the first time around or they added. It was just that the starting areas were dead.

      Yes, I did spend time with some people running instances, but they weren't my friends, who like me were level 70 and running 25 mans.

      And that makes all the difference. You have fewer people, who don't really know one another, and honestly, if they really are new, they have a lower skill level, so you get impatient with them not knowing how to tank/heal/dps or whatever.

      The major issue is that in an MMO, you need a certain critical mass of players to make the areas fun, or it loses something. The best quests were not meant for soloing. They did make a bunch of changes to speed up leveling while I was in the middle of one of my alt grinds, but it didn't make it any more fun, it just decreased the amount of time that I had to endure it all.

      This wasn't the original 1-50 experience, however. That's important to point out.

      I remember wasting inordinate amounts of time running Blackrock Depths trying to get my Barman Shanker for my rogue. It was the best weapon in the game, and I needed it because everyone else had it. It was actually a fairly interesting challenge, even if it got repetitive after it didn't drop awhile. Still, even before BC came out, there ceased to be a point to getting the Shanker because everyone had moved on.

      You are having fun now with level 70-80 for the same reason that people had fun with 1-50. Its new, and everyone is there. There is still a challenge.

      For me, I know WotLK would be diverting, but I'm an ex-player now because I stared down the top content in the game, and the top content in the game eventually stared back at me. Or rather, I realized that to remain on the top of my game, I could never stop. And that is sort of too bad, but I'm not at all sure what Blizzard could do about it.

      My advice, then, is that if you are going to start playing WoW now, if there is such a creature who is going to start playing WoW now who hasn't before, get as many friends as possible while you make your way through the lower levels, and you will have fun.

      Do be warned, though, the grind will always be the grind in WoW. You will always be "keeling seex snow moose" or 24 ice murlocs or whatever. They will just be different shapes or colors in a different backdrop, sometimes with a new spell here or there. The comic's point is not really that this is no fun, its that WotlK is really providing little that is new in gameplay, and that is true. There's really little sense that you are doing something that no one else has ever done before.

    57. Re:Please keep me informed by tnk1 · · Score: 1

      That said, with a set of people who you can rely on to do their jobs and know what to do, you could clean out all of WotLK in probably about a month, barring any built in, unavoidable time delays like the attunements used to be in BC.

      The only reason MMOs last any amount of time is that people become unfocused and get distracted in a way that they probably wouldn't in a single player game. Granted, some people actually play for the social aspects and perhaps try and collect things like exotic mounts or interesting looking sets of gear. Most people, however, play to power up in some fashion and that could be done very easily in WoW with a dedicated group. Hell, I did it with a bunch of crappy players. It just took a little longer.

      Its amazing just how much play time can be added to a game, in relation to the actual content available, by simply having you able to roam around aimlessly and chat with other people.

    58. Re:Please keep me informed by immcintosh · · Score: 1

      When you try to imagine the game without the graphics, you realize how little gameplay there actually is. It might be feasible to make a nethack-style game that captures every element of WoW gameplay, but that would be a very dull game indeed.

      But now imagine a WoW-style game that captures every element of nethack gameplay. Oh god I would never be seen outside again...

    59. Re:Please keep me informed by Endo13 · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure why (or if it's deliberate or not) but the first two responses to your question... well... there's a lot more two it than that.

      No, you don't need to make a new character. You do have to pay money to respec as the first response says, but that's the trivial part. The part that takes time and effort is the fact that you need completely different gear for each different role. As a DPS warrior (that's what you're referring to initially (DPS = Damage Per Second, indicating a player who's primary role is... doing damage)) you need gear with stats that boosts your damage. On the other hand, as a tank spec warrior, you need gear that boosts your defenses instead. Meaning you'll ultimately need a different gear item in each slot. So you'll need to get fifteen (I think, can't check right now sorry) other pieces of gear to switch from DPS to tanking.

      --
      There is no -1 Disagree mod. Slashdot.org/faq defines mod options. USE IT.
    60. Re:Please keep me informed by Endo13 · · Score: 1

      I got to participate in a wipe on one boss (a spider boss?) on the PTR with a pre-made toon. Needless to say, I'm also quite keen on actually playing through the whole instance.

      --
      There is no -1 Disagree mod. Slashdot.org/faq defines mod options. USE IT.
    61. Re:Please keep me informed by _Sprocket_ · · Score: 1

      Quite true. But to claim that the Guinness Book doesn't matter just because some people don't care misses the point. Some people do, and so it's news to them.

      I agree. News doesn't have to be earth-shattering to be news. Sometimes trivial things apply.

    62. Re:Please keep me informed by merreborn · · Score: 1

      Blah blah blah, learn the lesson, blah blah blah.

      You didn't provide any suggestions to solve the problem, just banged on about how important it is to learn that there is a problem. Do you have any ideas on how to fix this? Or is just understanding that it's a massive problem good enough for you?

      The purpose of my post was only to assert the importance of the article. And yes, I do think making sure new MMO developers understand the problem is "enough". If you're aware of the rate at which users will tear through content, and plan accordingly, you'll be in better shape than if you learn this lesson by personal experience.

      A discussion of how to address this issue was out of the scope of my original post, but since you asked so nicely...

      The problem is twofold. The first problem is the scope of quest design -- quests are designed for individuals and small groups of semi-casual players to solve, but inevitably, there will be large, well coordinated groups with more in-game resources and time at their disposal attempting the same quests -- and they'll inevitably accomplish it in an instant. A goal accomplishable by your more casual players is trivial for your hardcore players; similarly, a challenging goal for your hardcore players is completely inaccessible to your casual players.

      The second part of the problem is creation of static content is time consuming. It takes months to create a few days worth of content. While the quest-development-time to quest-completion-time ratio can be tweaked to some extent, you'll never, ever be able to create content faster than your players can conquer it.

      There are several ways to cope with this:

      1. Just accept it, and design for your casual players. Your hardcore players will chew through your content rapidly. Either they get a real kick out of being the first to accomplish goals, and won't mind, or they'll leave for more hardcore oriented games (EVE online?). There's nothing all that wrong with this approach, and it's likely the most financially viable option
      2. Design for your hardcore players. Change the "Kill 5 elk" quest to "Kill 500 elk". This will inevitably drive your casual players to easier games (WoW). Your shareholders probably won't be very fond of this choice, but if you're not out for big profits, this is potentially a viable option
      3. Design quests to be taken on by the whole server. WoW's opening of the Dark Portal is a good example of this, as is ATITD. ATITD features a technology advancement track that requires all of the game's players to band together to donate massive amounts of game resources to research. The rewards are then available to all players -- much like all players were able to use the Dark Portal. Everyone who pitches in gets a small sense of accomplishment.
      4. Abandon static content for dynamic. Dynamically created worlds are not a new idea -- one of the best known examples is 1984's Elite. However, applying this concept to multiplayer games represents a hell of a challenge. Building an MMO is enough of a technical challenge to begin with; making it actually *fun* makes it even harder, and making a procedurally generated world fun for players with diverse levels of interest is a challenge that no one's yet accomplished. There have been attempts, however.
      5. Let players create content for each other. This is the Second Life/Metaplace approach. As mentioned previously, the problem with the standard MMO model, is millions of players are playing content created by a few dozen developers on a budget. If you can get your millions of users to start creating content for each other, you'll potentially have far more content available to your users than you could have ever created yourself.
    63. Re:Please keep me informed by Miszou72 · · Score: 1

      Can you imagine how infuriating it would be to have to wait for a 3 minute timeout in between turns

      I played Counter-Strike that way for months, you insensitive clod!

    64. Re:Please keep me informed by SL+Baur · · Score: 1

      Blizzard dropped the ball between levels 1 and 50: it's very misrepresentative of the "real" WoW. Many play it to 10, think "okay this is getting repetative/boring", try a different character, find no difference and then make a post on slashdot.

      It could be. Certainly, you learn very little about what the rest of the game will be like from the first 10 levels and you have to get up much higher to really take advantage of whatever class you have chosen.

      The Death Knights are an interesting attempt to "fix" that. By the time you finish the starting quests you are around level 58, have an epic ground mount and a full set of blues. You have no professions other than First Aid, preleveled to 275, which is nice because otherwise it would be a horrible grind on cloth.

      I have 2 level 70s who are still level 70s, plus a few bars. I have a Death Knight who is now Artisan Cooking/Fishing and will be Master in both in an hour or so of game time. I'm not in a hurry, though I know that will change as I get near level 80. I'm not bored and I'm having more fun than ever. WoW is awesome because it caters to players of all kinds, even dufuses like me.

      Assuming you can get past the first 50 levels. ;)

      I got my first character, a Night Elf Druid to level 50 and then abandoned it to try another class. That druid is still at level 51 ...

    65. Re:Please keep me informed by SL+Baur · · Score: 1

      That's why we should make a nethack game that uses the WoW graphics engine.

      I've played NetHack since it was called Hack. The biggest feature of NetHack is that once you die, you die, and you must start over. That will never work in a pay-to-play game.

      Personally, I think that WoW *is* a logical successor to NetHack. It runs on Unix and it has completely replaced whatever need I felt to play NetHack.

    66. Re:Please keep me informed by SL+Baur · · Score: 1

      Nobody "ran it through" in under 30 hours. What some people did was say "we beat what we consider the important bits, so we call the game beat"

      That is most insightful.

      What Blizzard has done with WoW is create a game with soooooo many different ways to "win" the game. And yes, if any Blizzard person ever decides to write a book about it, it will be as important or more important than Fred Brooks' book about OS/360, _Mythical Man Month_.

    67. Re:Please keep me informed by Reapy · · Score: 1

      Meh part of the fun is actually killing things. I get itchy when the quests try to be creative sometimes, and I just want to get in, and start shooting things. I love using all the skills of my class, part of the fun, I'm a walking death machine, and enjoy that. There's a lot of variety in how you kill things. Sometimes I do a big aoe pull, sometimes I just cast the same thing on a mob the whole time. Sometimes I CC a bunch of guys and dot them up for shits and giggles. Also, randomness of a pvp server. Last night I had played an elaborate running game from a mage who we were killing back and forth. Was pretty exciting, shifting forms, hoting myself, while trying avoiding agroing mobs, jumpping off cliffs, eventually running underwater and changing to the seal form and sprinting away. Good stuff, very random. I still don't know what to do to survive encounters, wishing I understood the combat mechanics better, and when to use certain skills. When do I run and heal, when do I turn and try to dps someone down, when do I try to be tricky and typhoon breath someone off a bridge. Dunno!

      Honestly wow does the best job of most MMO's in focusing you down a quest line. I like to stop and kill things, gives me a reason to be in an area.

      But variety... Wow has added some things to the expansions that are somewhat groundbreaking for an MMO, that have had little mention.

      Firstly there are vehicles. One early quest has you hopping in a tank thing that has a saw blade on the front that you can use to mow over a ton of guys, or deploy landmines around you and watch them all explode. Another quest had me on the back of a dragon, dropping bombs in a quarry, one of my skills to use was to devourer one of the guys whole to get health back. Another one I dropped boulders down in a canyon with a bunch of giants. One of them I summoned up a dude out of the ocean to talk to him that was about 6 stories tall. I haven't even seen the pvp with vehicle zones.

      They have this thing called phasing. Remember all the bullshit "oh, well, you can't affect the world in an mmo?", welp, they did it. Half way through one zone you will have a cinematic play after finishing a quest line, which results in one area of the game completely changing. It will look different to you then it will to other players who have not finished the quest line. If that isn't groundbreaking and new in an mmo, I don't know what is.

      But really, what has made the expansion worth it to me, is the art direction of this game. It is so well done in every zone, exploring has been the major highlight. Stopping to smell the roses while I follow a story line that breaths life into the excellent landscapes is even better.

      I mean, if wow is boring, you ought to just quit, and let people go on enjoying it. I loved the concept behind guild wars, loved the graphics, loved the avatars, loved a lot of things about it, but something about killing monsters in that, was boring as hell. Dunno what it is, art design, skill mechanics, graphical varity, whatever it was, just bored me out. Hell, I quit wow way back in the day after about 2 months and hitting level cap, snore, on to more fun! I started from scratch 4 years later, and I've been going for about 6 months non stop, they must be doing something right.

    68. Re:Please keep me informed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the guilds that still live in the real world

      What shall I say more?

    69. Re:Please keep me informed by Kingrames · · Score: 1

      Our perl scripts go all the way to one.

      --
      If you can read this, I forgot to post anonymously.
    70. Re:Please keep me informed by Tom · · Score: 1

      Also, Nethack has nowhere near the complexity of WoW. I'm sorry, but it doesn't have 3 dimensions. It doesn't care if you're actually facing your opponent, you can cast spells or attack in any direction without turning around. Nethack does have incredibly complex item interaction, but so does WoW.

      No, what WoW has is apparent complexity. There's thousands of monsters and hundreds of weapons. The problem is that most of it is illusionary. In reality, there's maybe 10 kinds of monsters, each with a hundred or so variations of hit points, damage and (of course) visuals. And there's 5 weapons, in many variations.

      Same for spells, potions, armour and even areas.

      Nethack doesn't have much of that (especially not visuals), but what complexity it does have is real.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    71. Re:Please keep me informed by Tom · · Score: 1

      True, that.

      But what if someone were to solve that problem? What if?

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
  3. Addicts indeed by Uglypug · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's always comforting to be reminded that there are people out there with even less of a life than you.

    1. Re:Addicts indeed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Amen. To all you wow players: Shut that computer down and go out get some fresh air. Life is much too short to waste it on playing a bloody game.

      And this comes from someone who made quite a bit of money writing games.

    2. Re:Addicts indeed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Boy it sucks when life doesn't live up to your stereotypes and the guy who happens to be insanely good at some silly video game also happens to be successful in real life.

    3. Re:Addicts indeed by gparent · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's always comforting to be reminded that some people are stupid enough to still think playing WoW somehow prevents you from going outside and having fun with friends.

    4. Re:Addicts indeed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yes, I'm sure someone who spends 27 hours straight playing an online video game has plenty of time for so many other great "accomplishments".

    5. Re:Addicts indeed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, for those 24 hours...no life. However, they've beaten it again...which means now they can have one while the rest of us toil away...

    6. Re:Addicts indeed by philspear · · Score: 5, Funny

      Amen. To all you wow players: Shut that computer down and go out get some fresh air. Life is much too short to waste it on playing a bloody game.

      And this comes from someone who is posting to slashdot on his laptop as he is skiing down K2 being chased by ninjas while nailing the new Bond chick.

      Fixed that little bit of hypocrisy there for you.

    7. Re:Addicts indeed by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      Same goes for all sports players, musicians, actors, artists and TV watchers. Why waste your life on something you enjoy when you can go outside and... um... freeze your ass of?

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    8. Re:Addicts indeed by Korin43 · · Score: 1

      I think when you beat* an expansion in 3 days, it's safe to say you're a little obsessed..

      *I realize you can't really "beat" WoW, but getting to the max level and clearing all of the dungeons is pretty much the most you can do.

    9. Re:Addicts indeed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's always comforting to be reminded that there are people out there with even less of a life than you.

      Well, think about it this way - these people organized everything ahead of time so well and beat things so fast that they can now play *less* than everyone else. This is /. , aren't we supposed to praise nerds when they're efficient?

    10. Re:Addicts indeed by Trubadidudei · · Score: 4, Insightful

      *Sigh*

      The expression "life" has gotten some funny co-notations these days.
      Today, it is possible to not have a "life" actually, and being judged to "waste" it by doing something someone infected with clichés and stereotypes doesn't understand.

      I'm not really referring to the OP here, as it looks like his post is something that should have been modded "Funny", but was modded "Insightful" by people who misunderstand what he was saying. But to you who are so stuck up in your romantic ideas that you believe that what you define as "fresh air" holds some sort of magical spell that makes everything so much better and morally "correct", let me tell you something:

      Life is not short, life is not long. Life is life, and everyone, wether they never go out of their basement, or got a nobel price, are equally successful at it. In the end were all corpses, and all the memes and ideas we thought were so meaningful disappear with the rest of your consciousness.
      Now, stop looking down at people, any people, and especially wow players. By many of the ways that you think you can measure success, they are more successful then you. They socialize more then you do, albeit in a different environment, they have more of what you define as "fun" then you do, although some are more or less mentally addicted to some of the notions with the game. Your narrow minded definition of what is good and what is bad is simply wrong, and just because you don't understand that socialization is not something that disappears just because one does not only do it in what you and others paradoxically termed "Real Life", you are not in any measure generally more successful then those who do play an MMORPG. You are as little and as much meaningful as everyone else, and you are by no means justified in judging others as "wasting" what you call "Life".

      *Sigh of relief*

      Now that that is out of the way, let me say that i do not hate you, the person to which i reply. I hate the mindset of which that statement generally belongs. Although what i am saying is somewhat paradoxical as i am actually judging people when expressing my emotions about one type of judgement, i felt that this approach was best to get my feelings about that statement across.

      And for the record, i played WoW since launch, quitting a year ago. When the last of my IRL friends decided to quit i quit as well, and left an avatar to which i had devoted much time, some of the nicest people i had ever met, and an universe in which i had had a much more rewarding experience than i ever would have had if i never would have played at all. During my WoW playing period, i still went out with my friends, i did not fail at school, and i still went to and arranged parties, even though i didn't find them very fun. However I recognized that i wanted to expand my social network, and socializing "IRL" was by no means something that i was bad at.

      Please, abandon the idea that playing WoW equates to the lack of "Life", and that "life" can in fact be lacked. Throw it in a dumpster, smash it with a spade and please set it on fire, and while your at it, throw some of the ideas that that meme brings with as well, especially the idea that fresh air is and has been better then it's opposite (whatever that is).
      Such ideas just make me so angry, and forces me to post long inflammatory and self righteous posts on a comment section that would otherwise be filled with WoW speak, which is really quite embarrassing.

    11. Re:Addicts indeed by wbren · · Score: 3, Insightful

      In my experience--based solely on the people I know that play WoW, not necessarily on the stories you read online--the likelihood of Wow at least *interfering* with your social life is pretty high. You might decide not to go out with some friends one night because you're just so close to leveling up or completing a quest. That might sound like a really minor problem, but it adds up. The probability of it interfering increasing significantly if you are a member of a raiding guild. Since raiders are the people mentioned in the blurb, I think the OP's point was valid. He didn't even seem to be criticizing all WoW players, just those who rush out to "beat" the expansion quicker than anyone else.

      Remember, there are exceptions to every rule. Some people that use cocaine do so without any noticeable negative side effects on their lives. A lot of the time, however, there are very bad, very noticeable side effects socially, physically, and financially. I know that's an over the top example, but I think the same is true of WoW. You might be an exception, and if so, that's great. But just because you continue to thrive despite playing WoW doesn't mean others are as lucky. Something to keep in mind, that's all...

      --
      -William Brendel
    12. Re:Addicts indeed by gparent · · Score: 1

      If you let WoW interfere with your social life, you would've let anything else do it anyway. I know a lot of friends who play WoW, and I played WoW myself (and stopped for a few months at times, currently my account isn't active) and it is really easy to just ask your raid leader "Hey, I have friends calling me, do you have somebody to replace me?".

      Of course, sometimes, the answer was no. And you'll go raid because you need to. But is that really me catering to the game and purposely crippling social life? No, it's a calculated risk. I'll just see my friends friday instead of thursday. They know this and so do I. Does that mean one has less of a life? Not really. It is essentially the same thing as picking a group of friend over another group of friend when two parties are thrown at the same time.

      The OP also has seems to have no clue about how the game works. The very content that is talked about in TFA has been cleared times and times again by tons of guild over the course of the beta. It is not a feat to have cleared it again after months of experience has been acquired, and it's made even less of a feat by the fact that one of the raid instance they cleared is based on one released years ago.

      If the OP is basing his words solely on the people who cleared everything in 3 days, and not WoW players in general, then yes, he somewhat has a resemblance of a point (See last paragraph). But otherwise it's just good old trolling.

    13. Re:Addicts indeed by vitaflo · · Score: 1

      It's always comforting to be reminded that there are people out there with even less of a life than you.

      It should be mentioned that the guild who did this are professional gamers. They get paid to play WoW. In essence, they're just doing their job.

    14. Re:Addicts indeed by Lost+Engineer · · Score: 1

      The probability of it interfering increasing significantly if you are a member of a raiding guild.

      It's going to depend on your guild and your (other) friends. I don't think raiding one night a week is particularly bad. Other people, however, have a negative attitude toward a video game as an obligation. For comparison, would you think anything negative if I said: no I can't go party Wednesday, I have a basketball game and an obligation to my team. Say the same thing about WoW and many people would think there's something wrong with you, but there's really not that much of a difference.

    15. Re:Addicts indeed by SQLGuru · · Score: 1

      Actually, it just frees up MORE of his time to spend with friends. Everyone else will spend weeks or months to get there. During those weeks and months, he could be hanging out with friends (at least with friends who aren't spending weeks and months beating WoW).

      Layne

    16. Re:Addicts indeed by duckInferno · · Score: 1

      Indeed. Instead of doing what you want to do, go out and do what is the accepted norm in society, and/or what I want you to do. Life is too short to risk going against the grain.

      --
      Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, watch it -- I'm huge!
    17. Re:Addicts indeed by AntiNazi · · Score: 1

      In my experience--based solely on the people I know that play Men's league ice hockey--the likelihood of ice hockey at least *interfering* with your social life is pretty high. You might decide not to go out with some friends one night because you're in the playoffs.

      In my experience--based solely on the people I know that road race motorcycles--the likelihood of roadracing at least *interfering* with your social life is pretty high. You might decide not to go out with some friends one night because you're out of town at a race weekend.

      Every single hobby fits this exact mold so that seems like a pretty weak argument.

      You know what else fits this mold? A job.

      On the other hand, since I renewed for the expansion I've spent the last few nights playing with out of town friends while talking to them on teamspeak. I'd say it's a social enabler in this case.

    18. Re:Addicts indeed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is essentially the same thing as picking a group of friend over another group of friend when two parties are thrown at the same time.

      No, it really isn't.

    19. Re:Addicts indeed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Every single hobby fits this exact mold so that seems like a pretty weak argument.

      Ice hockey and road racing are social hobbies. You're still socializing while you do it. You socialize about it. Etc.

      WOW isn't a social hobby. It's more like watching TV.

    20. Re:Addicts indeed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well it just means you and his other friends are not as interesting as the game and his friends in the game. Maybe you should stop being so downright dull and wasting his time? Step it up a notch become more interesting to hang out with and stop doing the same things over and over again.

      obviously slightly sarcastic but still a valid point

    21. Re:Addicts indeed by fractoid · · Score: 1

      "The death rate is the same for us as for anybody...one person, one death, sooner or later." - Heinlein

      Did you have fun? Did you lead an enjoyable existence, and help those around you and those you care for do the same? If so then you win at life. If not... well hopefully you still have time left to fix that.

      --
      Rampant carbon sequestration destroyed the Dinosaurs' tropical paradise. I'm here to help repair the damage.
    22. Re:Addicts indeed by fractoid · · Score: 1

      Because...? The other people in your group in WoW are real people and often real-life friends. It's just the venue that changes.

      --
      Rampant carbon sequestration destroyed the Dinosaurs' tropical paradise. I'm here to help repair the damage.
    23. Re:Addicts indeed by fractoid · · Score: 1

      Ice hockey and road racing are just as much like watching TV as WoW is.

      Hell, road racing (on bikes not cars, as the parent said) is VERY asocial, it's just you on your bike. Not like you're talking to people while you're riding or anything. I think you've artificially limited 'socializing'.

      --
      Rampant carbon sequestration destroyed the Dinosaurs' tropical paradise. I'm here to help repair the damage.
    24. Re:Addicts indeed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      While WoW didn't exactly *demolish* my social life, it certainly hurt it. It became more acceptable to collapse in front of the computer instead of picking up the phone and seeing what others were up to.

      Worst of all, though, wasn't the social aspect - it was a horrible, nagging sense that every minute spent away from WoW was somehow wasted, and that I really should be playing WoW, not doing *insert activity here*.

      Eventually, my WoW playing translated into some serious psychosomatic pain - that I didn't understand was related to WoW. My addiction was so strong, though, that I kept playing through some serious pain. All in all, I really try hard to stay away from MMORPG:s nowadays - they can cause some serious damage.

    25. Re:Addicts indeed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm a WoW player and I enjoy it. However, being one of the best WoW players in the world for a year or two is hardly going to get you remembered in the same way as Muhammad Ali, Mozart, Marilyn Monroe or Monet. WoW adds relatively little to the enrichment of mankind. That's the difference.

    26. Re:Addicts indeed by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      Most things won't get you remembered unless it's some really popular thing and you're doing something tons of people care about. E.g. being the best basketball player in Germany still won't make people care about you even if being the same in the US would make you famous. For fame you really have to do sometzhing massively popular and I doubt even most WoW players care about their "greatest" players and there's nowhere near as many WoW players as fans of, say, football.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    27. Re:Addicts indeed by illumin8 · · Score: 1

      The probability of it interfering increasing significantly if you are a member of a raiding guild. Since raiders are the people mentioned in the blurb, I think the OP's point was valid. He didn't even seem to be criticizing all WoW players, just those who rush out to "beat" the expansion quicker than anyone else.

      You seem to be making the assumption that since the guild, TwentyFifthNovember defeated all of the raid content so quickly, they must have no social life.

      In reality, this guild is sponsored by major computer component manufacturers such as Nvidia, Intel, AMD, etc. In other words, they get a regular paycheck to play World of Warcraft as their job. I would hardly qualify having a game you love be your job as "having no life." In reality, they probably play regular hours, at least 8-12 hours a day on most days (full time work), and during the expansion release (cruch time), they probably played 16 hours a day. Hardly any different from any other job in the software industry. The only difference is that their job is more likely a lot more fun.

      So let's just quit with the generalization. Sure, WoW players might have problems with the game interfering with their social lives. You can't just assume that they all do however. Most are casual gamers that only play a few hours a week.

      --
      "When the president does it, that means it's not illegal." - Richard M. Nixon
    28. Re:Addicts indeed by Guysmiley777 · · Score: 1

      And this comes from someone who made quite a bit of money writing games.

      Warhammer Online developer who's sad that WOTLK is raping his precious game? Poor guy.

      --
      Coding with assembly is like playing with Legos. Coding an application in assembly is like building a car with Legos.
    29. Re:Addicts indeed by tnk1 · · Score: 1

      The funny thing is, the guilds who have their shit together and play to get stuff done actually tend to spend less time in WoW than the people who fuck around and dither away their time.

      Basically, its a matter of

      1. Own content
      2. Brag and show off uber gear and wait for new content.
      3. Recruit newbs to replace people who got bored after step 2.
      4. Run newbs though enough content to gear them for next content patch.
      5. Goto 1

      For mediocre guilds its:

      1. Start new content... slowly.
      2. Get somewhere, but take so long people leave because of boredom or to join top guild.
      3. Recruit newbs to fill ranks
      4. Train newbs and gear them.
      5. Continue content, slowly.
      6. Go to 2 unless you actually finish end encounter
      7. You won't need to wait for new content because it already came out. Go to 1.

      Having lead a crappy guild that eventually got better, I have seen both sides. These "no life" people actually have more fun and spend less time playing, I know I did once we got a lot better.

    30. Re:Addicts indeed by Estanislao+Mart�nez · · Score: 1

      It's always comforting to be reminded that some people are stupid enough to still think playing WoW somehow prevents you from going outside and having fun with friends.

      Of course it doesn't prevent them from doing that. The problem then is that when they meet their friends outside, all they do is talk about WoW and nothing else. I've had many a lunch ruined at work when my WoW-playing coworkers decide to all sit down at my table.

    31. Re:Addicts indeed by Endo13 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I think you missed the last sentence of the post you're attempting to post a troll response to.

      And here's a newsflash for you: some people just don't naturally socialize easily with other people in "RL". Most of my RL friends I hang out with, the relationships started... via PC games. If I wasn't playing WoW and socializing with other players in-game, I'd most likely be spending those hours playing more expensive single-player games socializing with no one. Thanks to other games and LAN parties, I also have local friends that I do other things with, such as go to movies, etc.

      --
      There is no -1 Disagree mod. Slashdot.org/faq defines mod options. USE IT.
    32. Re:Addicts indeed by gparent · · Score: 1

      The same phenomenon happens with sports. Again, it has nothing to do with WoW. It's an annoyance of human beings in general.

    33. Re:Addicts indeed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The amount of time it takes to perform even simple tasks in wow (even moving from point a to b can take 5 minutes) means that it has to take away a good chunk of time from some other part of your life. The game is designed on purpose to suck up as much of your time as possible (for monthly fees).

    34. Re:Addicts indeed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I guess you could get that impression if you have no friends.

    35. Re:Addicts indeed by Omestes · · Score: 1

      For me that five minutes are spent talking to real life friends (some of which I never would have gotten reacquainted with if it wasn't for the game), and generally spend traveling to somewhere to do some questing with "virtual" friends, who I also spend lots of time with just talking to, and have been doing so for a year or so, but thanks to real life geography I can't invite to the local pub. Often I'm also chatting with my real life (and local) girlfriend, who also plays from time to time, sometimes, even, when we're sitting in the same room, less than 5 feet from each other.

      I really don't understand the amount of hate that people spew towards WoW (and online games in general).

      Yes, some people can go to far. As they can in ALL things. I knew a couple people in college who blew all their money hanging out in bars, talking to the same circle of friends every night, and their grades/job/whatnot suffered. I know people who are obsessed with productivity and their jobs to the point of having no life to speak of, and will probably die 10 years sooner than me thanks to stress.

      All things in moderation.

      --
      A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
    36. Re:Addicts indeed by AntiNazi · · Score: 1

      WOW isn't a social hobby. It's more like watching TV.

      That's interesting considering it requires 9 or 24 other people working in close harmony to complete 90% of the content that matters.

      If you play the game as intended it REQUIRES social interaction.

    37. Re:Addicts indeed by bar-agent · · Score: 1

      Well it just means you and his other friends are not as interesting as the game and his friends in the game. Step it up a notch become more interesting to hang out with and stop doing the same things over and over again.

      Yeah! Like raiding or talking about character builds!

      Wait, which side am I arguing again?

      --
      i'd hit it so hard, if you pulled me out you'd be the king of britain [bash.org]
  4. 65 hours... by Kjella · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Not to be outdone, a guild named "TwentyFifthNovember" managed to get at least 25 raiders to 80 and then cleared all of the current expansion raid content less than three days after the launch

    They should make them twice as strong as they're "supposed to" be, and drop them say 5% each day. I'd make that competition last so much longer and frustrate these raidoholics, lol.

    --
    Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    1. Re:65 hours... by Austerity+Empowers · · Score: 5, Interesting

      That's actually an idea I've been campaigning for. These raiding guilds like to show off how great they are, yet they're just incredibly dedicated. Your average guild can't even get people to log in for scheduled events on time.

      So up the ante, make the raids insanely hard even for pro's. Make them unfair (like Naxx), require a distorted balance of classes, designed to engender social infighting. Give them some really hard problems to overcome inside and outside the game. Plant a few CSR "reps" in these guilds, have them create chaos, fan the flames of egos. Basically get them to play the game like normal people so the dev's can focus on the 99%, not the 1%.

      Then gradually ease up as your main player base starts to reach the top. "Patch" content that was "harder than anticipated", etc.

    2. Re:65 hours... by duckInferno · · Score: 1

      So blizzard should create insanely-hard raid content that 0.5% of the player base will see?

      I have slightly different ideas: spend the effort on refining, improving and adding to already existing areas. Add raids and instances that can be experienced by a double-digit percentile of the player base. Make the level of raid loot proportioned to the effort put in and the number of people participating. Have the hardcore in-fighting grind-loving folks go off to everquest or ultima.

      But your idea's cool, too.

      --
      Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, watch it -- I'm huge!
    3. Re:65 hours... by vux984 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That's actually an idea I've been campaigning for. These raiding guilds like to show off how great they are, yet they're just incredibly dedicated. Your average guild can't even get people to log in for scheduled events on time.

      Right. The Raid game is warped... its the only part of wow that isn't a tedious grind, and most of the players can't access it due to the fact that its unrealistic for most people to organize into groups that large, and schedule their lives around hooking up with these guys. Its the same reason most of us can't play organized sports once we 'grow up'. Its not that I don't enjoy soccer/football... but I can't commit to showing up twice a week on schedule with 15 people to join a league. Some people can, but they are a distinct minority. For most of us its simply unrealistic. So I play 'sports' that can be done more ad hoc, solo, or in small groups, and impromptu organized... mountain biking, fencing, squash, golf...

      WoW should similarly focus on the 90%+ that doesn't raid, and the developers should spend their time and development money into turning the small-group game in WoW that most people actually play to the same level of detail and complexity that they put into the raid game and get rid of the tedious grind. Make it freaking hard...that's fine... but target everything to the small group.

      The raiders? Fuck em. They can play something else. In fact, ideally Blizzard spins off a separate WoW game just for them, start everyone who plays at level 80 and and make it "all raids, all the time". If they want to filter noobs or something, they can make them grind to level 80 in regular-wow before they upgrade their account and switch games to raider-wow. (Sort of like you had to beat diablo in normal, befre you can play 'hardcore'.)

      I think this would be awesome. Everyone gets what they want.

      The question I would find most interesting is what the raid-game would cost. Raiders tend to use far more bandwidth than less "hard core players", and consume far more content per hour. Would Blizzard be able to support a raider-mmorpg at $12.95/mo or whatever it is, without the massive 'subsidy' the current raid game is given by the 90% of the players who pay for it now, but never get to see it. Ie... if all the revenue for raider-warcraft came from raiders could it sustain itself?

      Because right now I think most WoWers are getting the shaft, paying 12.95/mo for the developers to spend the bulk of their time subsidizing the bandwidth and content tuning for raiders, and then paying $x for an expansion where clearly the bulk of the effort was again spent on the raiders... sure in terms of total content the single players get more... but its mostly stuff that's just been 'phoned in' repetive fedex/kill quests and other mindless tedium. All the really neat stuff is in the raids.

    4. Re:65 hours... by Austerity+Empowers · · Score: 1

      Yes, and it will be LESS work. The personalities that engage in this 3 day marathon type thing are not afraid of obstacles, arbitrary, stupid obstacles. To be first, and to lord over the masses, they will do pretty much anything. So give them something really hard, totally unfair in the easiest possible way. They'll throw themselves at it, as long as it feels "real".

      Meanwhile focus on making a good game for the 99% of us who won't ever see top-end anything. As the majority approach the raids, then patch in the "real" content with things like "harder than intended", "fixed a bug with", "reduced key requirements" etc.

      With any luck, the 1% will be so alienated that they'll be afraid to engage in this behavior in future releases.

    5. Re:65 hours... by popmaker · · Score: 1

      So, basically, make it more like real life?

    6. Re:65 hours... by hustlebird · · Score: 1

      Thats exactly what happened in the first expansion.
      You say insane key requirements for everything but the first couple 25 mans, then blizzard quickly dropped the second 2 raids key requirements, then a while later, they removed the keying requirements for the last 2, which was then followed with a content patch for the final raid dungeon of TBC.

    7. Re:65 hours... by Austerity+Empowers · · Score: 1

      Exactly, except they need to make the keying requirements much more impossible and time consuming. So much that they don't even need to worry about the raid content for say, 6 months while they work on the "real" game. Then, just as the elite are nearing the end of their treadmill, release the content and drop the grind.

      That's how you fix them.

    8. Re:65 hours... by ahodgson · · Score: 1

      All the raid content in WOTLK can be played in either 10-man or 25-man versions. So, yeah, they are trying to do this.

      Of course the loot is better in the 25-man versions ...

    9. Re:65 hours... by tnk1 · · Score: 1

      Do you have any idea how hard it is to keep 25 dedicated people playing and getting them to this point? Why would Blizzard have to make the game any harder?

      Those guilds *are* awesome. They either have really responsible, dedicated players or a really, really obscenely good organizational structure.

      That's not to say that they are better human beings than you are. Frequently, they are asshole kids who can't do anything else in life. And I say this because I used to deal with them 5 days a week. Some others are really nice people who are simply responsible and care enough to know their tasks and follow directions.

      Give them their credit. They play this game to win it, and by far most of them achieve their goals playing the same game everyone else does. They do deserve some bragging rights in-game.

      None of this prevents anyone else from running that content. You just need to keep things in perspective.

      Even if you made the game harder for them, they would still be first, and then they would have even more to hold over your head when they want to be jerks.

      There is nothing at all in WoW that beats dedication and sheer time investment, in the right places. I think it would be silly to penalize that.

    10. Re:65 hours... by ukyoCE · · Score: 1

      FYI, it appears that Blizz is making raids MUCH easier in LK. I think they'd really like to see people PUGging raids.

      * Aggro isn't nearly the issue it once was.

      * Buffs are shared across multiple classes, so you don't have to micromanage which classes you bring - just bring whoever you can get.

      * Hybrids have become even more cross-spec - every class can do solid damage now, even if specced for healing or tanking

      * While it's not quite in the game yet, they'll be introducing off-specs soon, so you that pally or druid can switch to their resto off-spec or tank off-spec if a tank or healer has to leave

      * Combined with the previous, gear is more universal than ever, so that druid doesnt have to carry a second set of gear to switch between magic dps and healing when he uses his off spec (but to tank or melee would require a separate set of gear)

      I think all these things combined are going to make raiding a LOT more accessible AND enjoyable in LK. I was in a guild once, and they really guilted you into playing, and would treat you like shit if you left during a raid. If I could hop into a raid for half an hour then PUG a replacement when I have to go cook dinner, I'd be raiding a lot more.

  5. Rush to completion by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I've never understood people who feel the need to rush to complete game content. After paying for a game, I like to take my time and enjoy it. I guess maybe people see it as another way of competing with each other? Or is it just obsession?

    Maybe I have a slightly different perspective than most. I'm a game developer, so I guess I'm slightly more aware than most of how much work goes into every single game. It's slightly depressing sometimes, because you've put a year or more of work into a product, and you've still only produced enough content to last a long weekend.

    --
    Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
    1. Re:Rush to completion by wild_quinine · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I've never understood people who feel the need to rush to complete game content. After paying for a game, I like to take my time and enjoy it. I guess maybe people see it as another way of competing with each other? Or is it just obsession?

      If you're this good at warcraft, lording your level above more casual plays is all you've got. You're going to want to reach the top fast!

    2. Re:Rush to completion by nschubach · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's a sad day when maxing out your character is considered "conquering" the game.

      --
      Every time I start to have faith in humanity, I ruin it by driving to work between 7 and 8 am.
    3. Re:Rush to completion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe I have a slightly different perspective than most.

      No. WoW has millions of players, and only a handful of them have rushed through the content at this point. Most of them are balancing their lives just fine, and taking the new content in slowly.

      I've never understood people who feel the need to rush to complete game content.

      Some people like to chug wine, I suppose.

    4. Re:Rush to completion by hansamurai · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well, if they cleared all the new expansion content, then what is left to conquer?

    5. Re:Rush to completion by Zathain+Sicarius · · Score: 4, Funny

      To conquer it all over again on one of their 20 alt accounts.

    6. Re:Rush to completion by Cousarr · · Score: 1

      Hey, It's still better than movies: Put a year or more of work into a product, and you've still only produced enough content to last a couple of hours.

    7. Re:Rush to completion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      losing your virginity would be a good start

    8. Re:Rush to completion by MartinSchou · · Score: 5, Funny

      The dating scene?

    9. Re:Rush to completion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You didn't even RTFA did you? A guild cleared all the raid content [Read: end game content] in the three days since release. I don't know about you, but I don't know what there is to conquer beyond end game content, is there something else you know about that you'd like to share?

    10. Re:Rush to completion by mjensen · · Score: 1

      change your point of view for a minute......

      You only hear about this because these were the 1% or less of the WoW community.

      You never hear about the person who found 320 different ways to kill a bunny on level 1, which took 2 weeks and he's now level 4. Or the person who collected 100 little nonsense items.

      Maybe it's your obsession to want to take things slow. Just saying there are all types.

      Doom3 was unsatisfying in the conclusion. Using cheats I spent a lot of time in the airless areas because I could then appreciate the graphic engine and views with a distance more than 10 feet.

    11. Re:Rush to completion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The unreleased game content - the big dude this expantion is all about, Arthas, IS NOT IN THE GAME YET.

      It's called content patches.

    12. Re:Rush to completion by Chaos+Incarnate · · Score: 1

      Well, there's the ten zones of quests that they skipped to start with...

      --
      Benford's Corollary to Clarke's Law: "Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced."
    13. Re:Rush to completion by daffmeister · · Score: 1

      It's slightly depressing sometimes, because you've put a year or more of work into a product, and you've still only produced enough content to last a long weekend.

      Authors seem to cope okay with this. Years to write and a few hours to read.

      Movie developers don't seem too hung up about it either.

    14. Re:Rush to completion by duckInferno · · Score: 3, Funny

      I'm grinding rep with your mom. I just hit "friendly".

      --
      Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, watch it -- I'm huge!
    15. Re:Rush to completion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Whats sad is that so much of the content is restricted to characters that are at the level cap.
      Its considered 'conquering' the game because unless you are 80 much of the game is still off limits to you.

    16. Re:Rush to completion by billcopc · · Score: 1

      I assure you, Blizzard has produced more than enough content to satisfy its users. Don't let a handful of cheating imbeciles fool you otherwise. It takes absolutely no smarts to powerlevel, and you miss out on all the actual content that makes the World of Warcraft interesting.

      Without lore, it's just a Progress Quest

      --
      -Billco, Fnarg.com
    17. Re:Rush to completion by binary+paladin · · Score: 1

      You know what disturbs me? The number of couples I know who met over WoW (and the content of said couples. *shudder*)

    18. Re:Rush to completion by myowntrueself · · Score: 1

      Well, if they cleared all the new expansion content, then what is left to conquer?

      The dailies?

      --
      In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
    19. Re:Rush to completion by DrVomact · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I don't really care how quickly these "elite" players level or what fabulous gear they have. If they want to be so intense about a game, let them. However, I would like to participate in raids—and retain my status as a reasonably casual player. Having played WoW for about a year, I've found the present guild structure to be inadequate for my needs. By "inadequate" I mean that the guild system seems to be the only way to access "high-level" content, specifically raids, but I'm not likely to find a guild that will both let me raid and retain my status as a casual player. (I play about 2-3 hours a day on the average.) As far as I've been able to discern, guilds fall into 2 categories: there are a great many obscure guilds with just a few members, and then there are the "elite" guilds—which want you to devote your life to WoW). To me, this seems to be a silly limitation that could be overcome by some creativity on the part of Blizzard (and other MMPORPG designers).

      I'd like to raid, but I'd like to do it when I've got free time—that is, casually. And I don't really want to spend my precious playing time on guild politics. Couldn't Blizzard put a little creative energy into devising a system that would allow for the convenient formation of ad hoc raid groups? I'm thinking of something like entering a time in the in-game calendar when you're available for raiding, and automagically getting matched with people who are available at the same time.

      I know "pick up" groups are a crapshoot. When you get to the larger groups required for raids, your chances of forming a functional group by random selection drop accordingly. But surely that problem could be fixed, or at least ameliorated. How about a reputation system that allows you to rate the ability and social skills of the members of your raid team after you're done? This would provide an incentive for people to play nice, and it would give you a way to judge whether a particular player who you don't know is someone you want to have along or not. Maybe we could also keep track of leadership skills (again, by raid members voting after the raid is done). Perhaps leaders could announce raids via the calendar system, and have the privilege of rejecting anyone with a score lower than x.

      --
      Great men are almost always bad men--Lord Acton's Corollary
    20. Re:Rush to completion by Hoi+Polloi · · Score: 1

      Blizzard put a little creative energy into devising a system that would allow for the convenient formation of ad hoc raid groups? I'm thinking of something like entering a time in the in-game calendar when you're available for raiding, and automagically getting matched with people who are available at the same time.

      Shhhh, that would make too much sense.

      I've been asking for something like this for a while. I can count the number of times I've been able to raid on one hand. I also find that most invites to do runs seem to pop up around midnight when you need to go to bed. An organized pug planning system would be a boon for those of us with jobs, outside interests, etc.

      --
      It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
    21. Re:Rush to completion by MartinSchou · · Score: 1

      You grind repeatedly with my mum? My mum, who's been dead for four years?

    22. Re:Rush to completion by duckInferno · · Score: 1

      Yes, and she never stops hungering...

      --
      Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, watch it -- I'm huge!
  6. So much for... by NinthAgendaDotCom · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ...savoring long-awaited new content. Seems like a rather ephemeral achievement.

    --
    -- http://ninthagenda.com/
  7. Well the new Naxxrama's is meant to be like Kara by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Well the new Naxxramas is meant to be the new Karazhan so its not really any major that it's already been cleared by guilds have been practicing for ever on the BETA.

    The same happened with Karazhan when TBC was released.

    So I dont see the big deal tbo. :-) Yeah they got 80 quick, same a

  8. Athene by alexhard · · Score: 1

    Athene got to 80 in 13 hours..

    --
    Infinite time means everything that can happen, will. You being you is absolutely incidental. You do not exist.
    1. Re:Athene by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      He got banned though (completely unfairly, considering Nymh was using virtually the same method, just outside of an instance.)

    2. Re:Athene by wild_quinine · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Athene got to 80 in 13 hours..

      But not 13 consecutive hours, since Athene was banned at level 79 for - as far as I can tell - playing the game too well.

      Getting your account suspended for doing something which does not involve hacking, require any 3rd party software, or cause grief for other players is frankly ridiculous.

      It's even worse given that he'd been good enough to ask a GM for permission to play the game that way, and got an affirmitive.

    3. Re:Athene by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It was 13 consecutive hours actually; well just over 13 hours, they got banned at level 79 about 5 minutes before Darus would have got 80, which was at 13:23PM, 13 hours 23 minutes after release.

    4. Re:Athene by Sparton · · Score: 2, Interesting

      But not 13 consecutive hours, since Athene was banned at level 79 for - as far as I can tell - playing the game too well.

      What happened?

    5. Re:Athene by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Shampoo got to 80 in 10 minutes...

    6. Re:Athene by Kingrames · · Score: 3, Interesting

      He went into instances with friends, left group, tagged all the mobs, then let them do all the damage. since those mobs were designed to be taken down by a group, they gave lots of experience.

      And he got all of it.
      Anyone who doesn't call it cheating has a pretty conservative definition of the term.

      --
      If you can read this, I forgot to post anonymously.
    7. Re:Athene by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Nymh guy abused a 'bugged' area in which mobs instantly respawn and are neutral (don't automatically attack the player), allowing him to grind safely without any fear of dying for hours on end.

      He also had a healer out of his group healing him (similar to Darus's group helping him kill the mobs).

      Either they should both have gotten banned or neither of them; Blizzard dealt with it in the worst way possible.

    8. Re:Athene by wild_quinine · · Score: 4, Insightful

      He went into instances with friends, left group, tagged all the mobs, then let them do all the damage. since those mobs were designed to be taken down by a group, they gave lots of experience. And he got all of it. Anyone who doesn't call it cheating has a pretty conservative definition of the term.

      I know what he did, and what he did not do. He did not hack the game. He DID ask permission to play in that way, and was granted it.

      That's why it's not cheating. Call it something else - gaming the system, powerlevelling, exploiting even. But since it's not against the rules of the game, as set out in software, and it's not against the rules of the game as set out by the GMs - remember, he asked! - it's frankly not cheating by any definition, other than possibly a stupid and jealous definition.

    9. Re:Athene by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It was a known bug that was supposed to be fixed in previous patches. Somewhere along the line getting XP for mobs in an instance that are killed by people not in your party was inadvertently reintroduced. This is a bug. He was exploiting a bug. This is why the GMs reset his character to 70. Exploiting a known bug is still exploiting.

    10. Re:Athene by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      But who cares? As long as he's not hindering other gamers' experience, what does it matter?

    11. Re:Athene by andersa · · Score: 5, Interesting

      To be precise, it was Darus, another Paladin, that they were power leveling. Athene and the other people in the group didn't get any XP at all during the experiment.

      Athene did a full half hour video report on it on his website, including the part where his whole party were disconnected by Blizzard GMs and got their accounts suspended temporarily.

      It seems to me that Blizzard were monitoring the attempt throughout, and in the end decided that the game wasn't meant to be played this way after all and decided to break up the party. Maybe they were afraid of the publicity that would come out if Athenes group claimed the record. Perhaps they thought it would look bad, that the game that they had spent years to produce was demonstrated to be beatable in less than a day.

    12. Re:Athene by Draek · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't call it cheating. I *would*, however, call it griefing if he didn't get permission to do so beforehand, but if his friends were OK with him getting all the experience (and it seems that was the case), then I consider it no worse than normal power-leveling.

      --
      No problem is insoluble in all conceivable circumstances.
    13. Re:Athene by duckInferno · · Score: 1

      I'd imagine the hundreds of people questing and grinding and instancing their arses off competing to be the first 80 would feel a bit cheated.

      --
      Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, watch it -- I'm huge!
    14. Re:Athene by soliptic · · Score: 1

      He went into instances with friends, left group, tagged all the mobs, then let them do all the damage. since those mobs were designed to be taken down by a group, they gave lots of experience.

      I'm pleased to say I didn't understand a word of that.

    15. Re:Athene by GaryPatterson · · Score: 1

      The GM who said it was okay (mostly after the fact) got it wrong. The terms of service have something about getting around restrictions through in-game methods.

      This guy found a way to have six people in a five-person instance. By manipulating the group (having other players enter, join and leave every minute so as to avoid the auto-leave-instance effect that triggers after a minute) he circumvented game mechanics.

      He cheated. He didn't need a hack to do it, he just used a method that the designers didn't explicitly code against. They didn't think to, but that doesn't make his play any more fair.

      He got a three day ban for his efforts, and missed the opportunity to hit 80 first in the world.

    16. Re:Athene by Shinobi · · Score: 1

      He didn't check with a head GM though, only with the lowest tier GM

    17. Re:Athene by billcopc · · Score: 1

      I consider it no worse than normal power-leveling

      Many would argue that power-leveling is pretty heinous to begin with. It's fine to have guild mates help you with a tough part, but paying someone to basically level your character by abusing glitches or "tolerant" rules completely defeats the purpose of playing the game.

      If they didn't want to play the game, then why the fuck did they buy it ?

      --
      -Billco, Fnarg.com
    18. Re:Athene by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This. I can guarantee that this wouldn't raise an eyebrow with anyone important, even if it received the same media coverage, if it was done one week later.

    19. Re:Athene by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "It seems to me that Blizzard were monitoring the attempt throughout, and in the end decided that the game WASN'T MEANT to be played this way after all and decided to break up the party. Maybe they were afraid of the publicity that would come out if Athenes group claimed the record. Perhaps they thought it would look bad, that the game that they had spent years to produce was demonstrated to be beatable in less than a day"

        Let me get this straight:
        1: You ask the cop if it is legal to cross the street while drinking your coffee.
        2: He says yes
        3: You walk across, the street drinking coffee, and all of a sudden he comes to you and says.
        "Here is a ticket for crossing the street and drinking coffee."
        4: ???
        5: Profit

        That is the biggest bone head move ever.

        And please, it is not the way the game was not meant to be played you say? Then how should I play it, bar the exploits, as the GM think I should be playing?

        If I paid for the game, and I get my joolies off collecting gold all day and all night, who is the one to tell me that is not how MY fantasy game should be?
        If you want to do all quests - fine.
        If you just want to level - fine.
        If you DO NOT PLAY THE GAME, and pay for it - is fine too.

        So what RIGHT they all of a sudden have to tell you how to play your game?

        Another reason to stop playing some games from limited vision and creativity from a mind of some idiot.

        WoW creating millions of drone who now lack imagination and creativity - and on top of it- all have to play the way GM wants. WOW - FREEDOM!

        No different from drugs.

    20. Re:Athene by MindlessAutomata · · Score: 1

      Not really. They're playing for the content.

    21. Re:Athene by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      On top of that it is something that he got in trouble for in the past and things were changes so that this kind of thing should not have been possible anymore.

      He knew WELL beforehand that his behavior was considered exploitative and shouldn't have been possible anymore.

      He outright cheated, knew it beforehand and got caught doing it.

    22. Re:Athene by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is a poor analogy. It'd be more like if a child asked their mom if they could sell one of their t-shirts to make some money. The mom thinks it's a good idea for the kid to learn that they could make money if it seems odd to sell a used t-shirt, expecting him to sell maybe one or two.

      Then the kid sells every shirt he owns and has nothing to wear.

      This is a better analogy for two reasons. First, it's a "policy" rather than a "law". Policies can be changed easily and quickly and are more informal. Second, it shows that the "kid" or player in this case took the basic premise of the rule far further than would have been anticipated. Also, you have the authoritarian atmosphere. Police are bound by laws the same as pedestrians. Parents are not necessarily bound by the rules they set for their children.

      "Rights" do not enter into it, because you have no "right" to play WoW.

      Most likely any GM they asked about the policy would only be able to refer to a list of current policies. The list of current policies will not likely include every single thing a character could or could not conceivably do within the base policies and known mechanics of the game. Players do and will always push those policies as far as possible to find the extremes of the game. Sometimes it becomes obvious they've pushed too far, and policies must be changed to reflect that.

      I also seriously doubt it was some single GM who arbitrarily made a decision. Most likely, considering it was Blizzard Europe, they couldn't even get a final verdict on whether this should be allowed or not until they contacted the main headquarters in California. And then someone there probably had to come to a policy decision after at least some kind of meeting or asking someone at least reasonably high in the company. Why do you think it took them 13 hours to take action?

      In summary: your post is stupid and you are stupid.

    23. Re:Athene by Lost+Engineer · · Score: 1

      Min maxing these sorts of games is basically par for the course. The line between playing the game and exploiting a bug is pretty fine indeed.

    24. Re:Athene by JD-1027 · · Score: 1

      You missed one small but important point. Just because the game mechanics allows you to do it, doesn't mean it isn't exploiting. And exploiting has always been against the terms of use for World of Warcraft.

      You might reread exactly what they did to powerlevel that person. It's pretty obvious that they were doing something not intended by the developers to get some sort of unintended advantage (exploiting).

    25. Re:Athene by wild_quinine · · Score: 1

      You missed one small but important point. Just because the game mechanics allows you to do it, doesn't mean it isn't exploiting. And exploiting has always been against the terms of use for World of Warcraft. You might reread exactly what they did to powerlevel that person. It's pretty obvious that they were doing something not intended by the developers to get some sort of unintended advantage (exploiting).

      For the last time, because I am tired of saying this: Athene ASKED PERMISSION. A GM OKAYED THIS.

      There's some merit to the argument that a junior GM okayed this, when a senior decision might have been different. But GMs speak on behalf of Blizzard, and their word can be held in account.

      The rules are not set by the popular vote, they are set by Blizzard. Their representatives - the GMs - speak directly on their behalf.

      When a GM says X is not cheating, then x is not fucking cheating. Period.

    26. Re:Athene by Toad-san · · Score: 1

      It's called tap-killing. You tap a target (to get credit), your pals do all the work, while you move on to the next. Takes you much less time. Your minions get to do all the work, you get all the glory. Oh yeah, that's the way to play WoW all right.

      All honor and glory ... my flaming red ass.

      Incidentally, a number of people HAVE been kicked out by Blizzard for doing exactly that. I do NOT know that this guy got permission; indeed, if he did, I have no idea why Blizzard would make an exception to their own rules (and it IS against the rules).

    27. Re:Athene by illumin8 · · Score: 1

      I know what he did, and what he did not do. He did not hack the game. He DID ask permission to play in that way, and was granted it.

      I think he would have been fine if he stayed out of group, tagged the mobs, and let his friends finish them off. The problem appears to come in when he was in the group initially, tagged the mob, then left group quickly, and let the group kill it.

      That way, he got the grouped XP bonus, but wasn't actually in the group during the kill. This is where I believe the GM made the correct call that he crossed the line to exploiting.

      --
      "When the president does it, that means it's not illegal." - Richard M. Nixon
    28. Re:Athene by Joe+the+Lesser · · Score: 1

      It's cheating because the game was not designed to be played that way. The xp those monsters give out is clearly supposed to be split across a group of people who kill the mob.

      The fact that WoW's software was not good enough to stop him does not mean it's not cheating when you consider the intent of the designer.

      The GM is not a game designer.

      All that said, he shouldn't be punished because of the circumstances, but to pretend that's not gaining an unfair or unintended advantage is bullshit. He didn't earn his xp the way he was meant to, plain and simple.

      --
      "I only speak the truth"
      Karma: null(Mostly affected by an unassigned variable)
    29. Re:Athene by Joe+the+Lesser · · Score: 1

      that's true, for some the game is about exploiting bugs.

      --
      "I only speak the truth"
      Karma: null(Mostly affected by an unassigned variable)
    30. Re:Athene by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is a losing argument. The reason Athene asked GMs is because he KNOWS that this is an exploit. You'll notice that he was damn careful to take screenshots of the conversation where the GM said it was legal. How many conversations ended with a GM saying that it was not? He didn't take any screenshots of those, that's for sure.

      This exact same method was already called an exploit back when the Burning Crusade came out, and Blizzard was very clear about it being an exploit. Shortly after, they hotfixed changes to mob tagging that made it impossible.

      Athene noticed that the 3.0 patch accidentally had the same bug again, and then went asking around until he finally got a GM to agree that it was legit, when he knew perfectly well that it was an exploit. (Otherwise, why ask?)

    31. Re:Athene by Kingrames · · Score: 1

      Asking permission from ONE gm and then being banned by another is likely in a case like this. It's like saying "Can I do this?" to a police officer and then saying "But he said I could do it" when another comes to arrest you.

      --
      If you can read this, I forgot to post anonymously.
    32. Re:Athene by wild_quinine · · Score: 1

      It's like saying "Can I do this?" to a police officer and then saying "But he said I could do it" when another comes to arrest you.

      Under what circumstances would that not be the police officer's fault?

    33. Re:Athene by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You took that in a different direction than I was expecting, but I still agree.

      I was thinking it's more like:

      Child asks mom if he can have a bowl of ice cream. Mom says "hm it's before dinner but I guess you can have a little".

      Dad comes home to find child ate 2 gallons of ice cream. And pooped in the kitchen sink. Dad yells at kid.

      Kid then claims "buuuuuut mommy said I could!"

    34. Re:Athene by Skuld-Chan · · Score: 1

      Yeah do every time I ask a gm a question I should have them escalate it?

      No?

      I didn't think so...

      If a Blizzard official says its ok - its up to his supervisor to uphold that decision. That's what we did (for better or for worse) at the various call centers I've worked at.

    35. Re:Athene by Shinobi · · Score: 1

      And most call-centers are worthless, tbh. Rule number one when calling tech support for example is to tell the mofo to stop following the script and be helpful instead.

      And, it works the other way around: The lower tier GM's are bound to follow the policy set by the upper-tier GM's and by the developers. If they are not sure, they are to ask for clarification. If a measure isn't in accordance with that policy, the head GM's are supposed to and WILL overturn it.

    36. Re:Athene by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He asked a gm (and probably asked enough until he could get the answer he wanted - they tend to be unorganized at times) about an exploit that was fixed in the game THE LAST TIME he did it, but was unfixed in 3.03/wotlk. He knew about what happened last time, but he still continued. Its called forethought, and some common fucking sense.

    37. Re:Athene by ZerdZerd · · Score: 1

      Did you know that all the other players who were speed leveling was doing the same? And they didn't get banned. It was because he was twice as fast as the second fastest that they thought he was doing something else.

      --
      I'm not insane! My mother had me tested.
    38. Re:Athene by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All the words are English. It's time to learn!

    39. Re:Athene by Kingrames · · Score: 1

      Your only defense in a court of law would be hearsay evidence.

      --
      If you can read this, I forgot to post anonymously.
    40. Re:Athene by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Anything I can't do is cheating but anything I can do others can't do is skill.

  9. I really enjoyed WoW when it launched... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ...and I really enjoyed BC when it launched, but not as much as I first enjoyed the launch. I thought about getting The Frozen Throne, but this kind of behavior on my server, which I'm expected to emulate in order to enjoy 80% of Blizzard's 'Content', has made me realize this generation of MMOs is not for me.

    MMO developers cite limited budgets as their reason for not being able to make "better MMOs." Blizzard, however makes approx $15 a month from each of its 10 Million players. Effectively, their revenues are higher than most MMO's entire budget, every month. The truth is, MMO publishers *cough vivendi cough* have come to realize that MMOs make the most money when they emulate casinos. A pleasant, polished atmosphere with lots of slot machines where someone is "winning" every second, and there's constant reminders of that. Who'd ever want to leave?

    So please, if you ever meet me, and I say that I don't think WoW is a "good game," please keep in mind that Jackpot machines are also "good games."

    1. Re:I really enjoyed WoW when it launched... by Faluzeer · · Score: 3, Interesting

      "Blizzard, however makes approx $15 a month from each of its 10 Million players.".

      Hmmm

      There are approx 11 million WoW subscribers (all active according to Blizzard), the $15 is only the average amount paid per month by Western gamers. The majority of those 11 million subscribers are in China / SE Asia, and they do not pay flat monthly fee, instead they are charged on a per hour basis.

    2. Re:I really enjoyed WoW when it launched... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The majority of those 11 million subscribers are in China / SE Asia, and they do not pay flat monthly fee, instead they are charged on a per hour basis.

      Which means those players are a hell of lot more profitable.

      When ever a business model moves from an hourly charge to flat rate, they're revenues tank - a la AOL.

    3. Re:I really enjoyed WoW when it launched... by pxc · · Score: 1

      The Frozen Throne is not WoW or even an MMO.

    4. Re:I really enjoyed WoW when it launched... by ahodgson · · Score: 1

      The new quests and instances seem pretty well done, from what I've seen so far. *shrug*. I'm in it to raid and spend time with friends. If you don't like it, don't play.

    5. Re:I really enjoyed WoW when it launched... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I thought that the Asian markets paid less for the game initially, and actually more per month. Hourly fees would come into play in a LAN center, but they're not being assessed by Blizzard. I can't find any links that readily confirm this.

    6. Re:I really enjoyed WoW when it launched... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The majority of those 11 million subscribers are in China / SE Asia, and they do not pay flat monthly fee, instead they are charged on a per hour basis.

      Which means those players are a hell of lot more profitable.

      When ever a business model moves from an hourly charge to flat rate, they're revenues tank - a *l'* AOL.

      Remember Vowels == l'

    7. Re:I really enjoyed WoW when it launched... by duckInferno · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The difference is that WoW will cost you less per year than a fortnightly trip to the pub for a few drinks.

      Or an A+ game title every couple of months (good luck stretching those out that long).

      Or a monthly trip to the movies with popcorn.

      --
      Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, watch it -- I'm huge!
  10. Re:Conquered by the goatse by Wiseblood1 · · Score: 3, Informative

    hate to break your heart sweetie, but that one has been down for a while.

    --
    A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking
  11. Boredom by De+Lemming · · Score: 2, Informative

    So the Lich King didn't have to twiddle his thumbs for long...

    And there's also a Ctrl-Alt-Del "silly" on the new WoW expansion.

    1. Re:Boredom by drsquare · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Why have you sullied this site with the worst, unfunniest web comic of all time?

      B^U

    2. Re:Boredom by kv9 · · Score: 1

      I'm impressed. 3 game related comics in a row and no baby drama.

  12. I have to agree. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    I enjoyed WoW very much. But their 3.0x patches really screwed up the lower-levels. Blizzard claims "balanced at L80". Well, I'm a casual player. I'm there for the lower level content. And I'm fucking screwed!

    I don't appreciate nerfing CoR/Fear on Warlocks. Or taking improved wanding away from priests. (That won't affect the L80's in groups with free water, but us lower-level solo players are left out in the cold.)

    Or the constant UI changes. Quote "Improvements" UnQuote. Well, their improvements broke my AddOns, and took away a lot of my functionality. Blizzard can claim I need to go to third-party coders all they want. Or code it myself.

    Fact is, they broke it. And why the hell do I need to rely on third parties for functionality Blizzard should have coded up in the first place. What, 1.8 billion a year in fees ($15/month * 10 million subscribers) isn't enough for them? Christ, you can't even change the view angle from the keyboard without an addon. Even EverQuest had that!

    Treat me like crap! Well I'm moving on. LOTRO has similar gameplay, much better graphics & storyline, and a lifetime subscription.

    1. Re:I have to agree. by VGPowerlord · · Score: 1

      I don't appreciate nerfing CoR/Fear on Warlocks.

      I don't know about everything else, but Fear needed to be nerfed. Prior to this, you could Fear-DoT lock other players on PvP servers... granted, I haven't played regularly for over a year (or at all for six months), but that's what it was like in 2007.

      --
      GLaDOS for President 2016! "Well here we are again. It's always such a pleasure." -- GLaDOS, 2011
    2. Re:I have to agree. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, you can certainly still do this. He's talking about ping-ponging a mob. CoR no longer overrides the fear effect.

    3. Re:I have to agree. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      as opposed to the current Rogue stun-lock. Yea there is fairness and balance. Any hit has a chance of breking a mob out of fear, and th emore you fear it, the less it is likely to be feared again -- not so with rogues and stuns.

  13. Re:Well the new Naxxrama's is meant to be like Kar by Lulfas · · Score: 1

    Everything out right now has been defeated. Last boss at the moment is Malygos (one of the Aspects).

  14. Level 80 is not the endgame by Jack9 · · Score: 0, Redundant

    If the highest released raid boss has not been downed, the expansion has not been conquered.

    --

    Often wrong but never in doubt.
    I am Jack9.
    Everyone knows me.
    1. Re:Level 80 is not the endgame by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the highest released raid boss has not been downed, the expansion has not been conquered.

      Didn't RTFS, did you?

      Not to be outdone, a guild named "TwentyFifthNovember" managed to get at least 25 raiders to 80 and then cleared all of the current expansion raid content less than three days after the launch.

    2. Re:Level 80 is not the endgame by gshakhn · · Score: 1

      Not to be outdone, a guild named "TwentyFifthNovember" managed to get at least 25 raiders to 80 and then cleared all of the current expansion raid content less than three days after the launch.

      This is Slsshdot, but I expect people to at least read the summary...

      --
      Consciousness - That annoying time between naps.
    3. Re:Level 80 is not the endgame by minvaren · · Score: 1

      (Obligatory) You must be new here... (/Obligatory)

      --
      Big! Strong! Wow! Tada-O!
    4. Re:Level 80 is not the endgame by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the highest released raid boss has not been downed, the expansion has not been conquered.

      Read the full article, the guild TwentyFifthNovember (also happens to be my birthday) has cleared all raid content currently in WotLK

    5. Re:Level 80 is not the endgame by Jack9 · · Score: 1

      I expect you might want to reread the title of the comment.

      --

      Often wrong but never in doubt.
      I am Jack9.
      Everyone knows me.
    6. Re:Level 80 is not the endgame by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, it has been. RTFA

    7. Re:Level 80 is not the endgame by duckInferno · · Score: 1

      Insightful, if not for the parent's oversight on RTFS.

      You get to level 80: you haven't conquered the expansion.
      You kill the hardest raid boss: you haven't conquered the expansion.
      You get every achievement in the game (practically impossible): you haven't conquered the expansion.

      It's been 3-4 years since WoW's release and the game has come a long, long way. There's more to do than you can shake a stick at now, and that's all fine and good, but by and large, the best thing about wow? You can do it all again with a different class and have a totally different experience. There's ten classes to choose from. Each with three different specs (broadly speaking), which for many classes, means three completely different playstyles.

      I've been playing off and on since release (a few breaks totalling about a year) and I have never been more immersed in the game than I am now.

      --
      Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, watch it -- I'm huge!
    8. Re:Level 80 is not the endgame by Jack9 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      See now THAT's insightful.

      --

      Often wrong but never in doubt.
      I am Jack9.
      Everyone knows me.
    9. Re:Level 80 is not the endgame by duckInferno · · Score: 1

      Not as insightful as your post, apparently :)

      --
      Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, watch it -- I'm huge!
  15. Rushing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Players rush to 80 because that's what their friends are doing - they don't want to be left behind. Sounds silly but that's people for you.

  16. Way to enjoy the game... by howman · · Score: 1

    Well at least there will be loads of good gear up in the AH real quick.

    --
    flinging poop since 1969
  17. Not really.... by sirmokona · · Score: 1

    um...no, actually, Nymh was the first 80 to be recognized by Blizzard... The world's first 80 was banned temporarily for doing it too fast... http://tr.im/151t [this is a youtube link]

  18. Speedruns And Completion by nick_davison · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If you look at the speedrun subculture, people can "complete" most classic, deeply loved, games in ridiculously short amounts of time.

    Does it devalue Doom to tens of millions of players, many of whom logged hundreds or thousands of hours in it, knowing that someone's managed a speedrun in an hour or two?

    Besides, modern MMOs are about a huge number of things interacting:

    Have they looted enough of the highest level drops that their players are now fully kitted out in the best gear available? Or did they just scrape by with enough to claim they could do it, only to get slapped down in PvP, next week, by a guild that didn't claim "completion" and is now better equipped?

    Have they collected everything they need for their crafters to make the highest end items they also had opened up to them?

    Have they gained the new mounts?

    How about PvP specific loot? Have they gained the full sets of that stuff that were put there for the huge number of players that don't consider level 80 and a few raids to be the pinacle of the game?

    And that's all before you get in to the broader culture of a game like that... mapping things out, raising interesting alts, side quests, etc.

    A junior high bully gets to claim he's the most awesomest by having no one who can beat him in a fight. Yet the kids who're on dates, getting in to bands, on the sports teams, even nerdier stuff like winning science olympiads or actually understanding their classes so they'll get great grades in highschool, a great college place and be much better off in life... they're probably not all that impressed that, yes, he got to the top on a single axis. Did he really "complete" junior high as he likes to tell himself?

    1. Re:Speedruns And Completion by Swordsmanus · · Score: 1

      If you look at the speedrun subculture, people can "complete" most classic, deeply loved, games in ridiculously short amounts of time.

      Does it devalue Doom to tens of millions of players, many of whom logged hundreds or thousands of hours in it, knowing that someone's managed a speedrun in an hour or two?

      The thing is that speed runs also take a great deal of work to create. I'd go as far as to say they're a labor of love. The people who make that 10-minute or 1-hour speed run have spent hours upon hours exploring the game, memorizing it, mastering all the required skills, finding any possible bugs that may be advantageous, how to exploit any such bugs with a high success rate when desired, and optimizing any choices given in the game (such as equipment, paths chosen, etc). And that's before recording the run, which can take hundreds of attempts depending on if it's a segmented run (uses in-game save points) or not, the overall length of the game, the extent of random factors in the game, the difficulty of the game, mistake/time threshold, and so on.

      Tool-assisted speed runs, which use emulator features to create an inhumanly perfect run, sometimes have save state re-loads in the tens of thousands (see the super mario 64 tool-assisted speed run on youtube, the number is posted at the start of the video).

      All in all, people who speed run a game truly master it, ironically logging hours matching or beyond the hypothetical players whom you propose might be offended by a speed run.

  19. Eventually by Organic+Brain+Damage · · Score: 5, Insightful

    the sun will go nova and the earth will cease to be and all human endeavor will vanish forever. Nothing lasts. Nothing is worth doing except enjoying the small bit of time we get on this planet. If you get your joy playing WoW for 27 hours, being first to level 80, good for you.

    1. Re:Eventually by jacquesm · · Score: 1

      fatalistic much ?

    2. Re:Eventually by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nothing ends, Adrian. Nothing ever ends.

    3. Re:Eventually by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I enjoy complaining about the achievements of others in forums online. Go me?

    4. Re:Eventually by duckInferno · · Score: 1

      He's just putting time in perspective. Be conservative about what you do or do not do because of how it'll pan out in the future. Live for the moment; live how you want to live; do what you want to do.

      It all sounds a bit idealistic, wishy washy or cliched but it's a sound and rewarding way to live.

      --
      Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, watch it -- I'm huge!
    5. Re:Eventually by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Go you!

    6. Re:Eventually by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not to bring a modicum of deep, philosophical discussion to /., but every time I take the path down the "Everything ends so everything is futile" path, I find the end to be painfully self destructive. It might be more prudent to balance that thought with a strong dose of "... but too much of one thing in this life is still bad. Get out and try some other shit before you die."

    7. Re:Eventually by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree. The time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time.

    8. Re:Eventually by tnk1 · · Score: 1

      I think the presumption is that a person would find certain other endeavors a more rewarding use of that time than power leveling to 80.

      Taking a shower would be one.

    9. Re:Eventually by iggya · · Score: 1

      It might be more prudent to balance that thought with a strong dose of "... but too much of one thing in this life is still bad.

      Moderation in all things, especially moderation.

    10. Re:Eventually by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, that's pretty much my point. People feel so bad about being tremendously outclassed at anything (e.g. some random video game) that they have to make up stories about how the savant is so much worse than them at everything else (e.g. personal hygiene). In reality, yes, some savants are idiots, but some are polymaths, and most are normal people.

  20. Fortunately? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Fortunately for them, the next three content patches are each expected to contain new, more difficult raids.

    Nothing about their lives is fortunate.

  21. As someone who's taking his time with WoW... by Lordfly · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ...I just gotta say they missed most of the fun of the game.

    Granted, I have one character, a level 36 Warlock, that's taken me something like 3 months to get up to. But you know what? I'm probably having a bit more fun and getting more for my money than the people who have to powerlevel to 80 as fast as possible.

    It makes PvP harder for me (as I can't compete with people who twink their guys out with the best gear), and I generally don't go into the instances/raids (I solo most of the time, and my guild is more social than goal-driven), but I get to actually enjoy the art, the people, the economy, and the experience.

    Getting to 80 as fast as possible is like trying to ride every single ride at Cedar Point as fast and as efficiently as possible, as opposed to a group of friends who go on what they want when they want.

    Which group has more "fun"?

    --
    hookers and grits.
    1. Re:As someone who's taking his time with WoW... by theblondebrunette · · Score: 1

      mod parent up..

    2. Re:As someone who's taking his time with WoW... by dosun88888 · · Score: 1

      Some people like playing, and some people like getting good. I do not like the playing part so much, which is why I quit playing WoW after a full day at level 20. I felt like it was a grind, and didn't feel like I was getting better at anything. If I were at level 36 after 3 months, well, I think I would have hated every minute of it.

      I would imagine that these level 80s would not have fun playing the game like you apparently do. To each their own, and all that good shit.

    3. Re:As someone who's taking his time with WoW... by duckInferno · · Score: 1

      You can experience what you just described any time you want. The glory of world first and realm first achievements is something you can only experience once.

      Can you fathom how any given player in that raid felt when they were standing on the final bosses' corpse, their achievement broadcast to the entire 30,000 player server and picked up by major sites such as slashdot and digg?

      --
      Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, watch it -- I'm huge!
    4. Re:As someone who's taking his time with WoW... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The challenge itself tends to be fun, and the novelty of it.

    5. Re:As someone who's taking his time with WoW... by Paradigm_Complex · · Score: 1

      Which group has more "fun"?

      Consider: Straight men don't have as much fun as gay men because they have to have sex with women.

      Personally, I haven't found WoW to be fun at all, either rushing through it or taking my time. However, that's not to say that by not playing WoW I'm having more fun than either you or the people in TFA.

      I play other games - like Super Smash Bros Melee and StarCraft - competitively. I've gone to tournaments and watched replays and managed to snag some games with pros. I find pleasure in the competition, the challenge, as well as gain pleasure from acknowledgment of my improvement. I have been regularly surprised by many casual Melee/SC players who try to argue that *not* competing is more fun. It's as though they're trying to, well, compete at having more fun. Somehow the irony is often lost on them.

      When it comes to things like politics or religion, it is technically possible for one person to be correct and another to be wrong about the best ways to go about things. "Fun," however, is completely, 100% subjective. Different people find different things fun.

      --
      "A witty saying proves nothing." - Voltaire
    6. Re:As someone who's taking his time with WoW... by billcopc · · Score: 1

      They probably felt just as lame as they have their entire life. There's no pride in cheating. You have to work hard to get satisfaction out of it, else we'd all play everything on god-mode and brag about it on Youtube like this little prewhore.

      --
      -Billco, Fnarg.com
    7. Re:As someone who's taking his time with WoW... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm sure the people who obsessively conquer all the raids and powerlevel to 80 are having fun. Some people, especially in 'elite' guilds, in any games have fun being the first to do something, the competitive guilds have fun trying to dominate any which game they play.

      Okay, so that style of game play isn't what you'd consider "fun", but seriously, since when has "fun" been an objective measure? Different people == different definitions of fun.

      I don't particularly enjoy either game play style in terms of WoW, but I do have a lot of fun chasing people around until they get fed up and run off into hostile terrain and get killed, or "pushing" people off that transcontinental blimp, I won't however argue that I'm having more fun than anyone else, since my head isn't implanted anywhere near that far up my ass.

  22. How many beta hours as well? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    27 hours? Let's not forget however many hours they spent testing and playing it in the beta. These are top guilds and got invited there and spent who knows how many additional hours playing them there. Naxx I could let go since it's essentially the same as it was before just tuned for 80's as their first raid, so they probably knew how to do it well beforehand.

  23. Re:Conquered by the goatse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That's so sad, I miss goatse!
    Oh, and the best part of the site must be this ad:

    "Goatcheese Curd Goatsmilk
    Producer Curd Soft Goatscheese Buche, Chevre Brie, Feta, Spread "

  24. Not hard by burris · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If the game was too hard, most people would get frustrated and quit. Then Blizzard wouldn't make any money. Instead you get a regular reinforcement schedule that keeps you paying the bills. B. F. Skinner would have loved these things.

  25. Obsession... by Securityemo · · Score: 1

    My little sisters boyfriend actually took the money he should have used to travel over to her, and wasted it on this instead, then pretended to be sick to be able to play it. This stuff really is addictive. :/

    Oh, and if you're reading this: the CS undergrad guys thinks you're one awesome sonofabitch.

    --
    Emotions! In your brain!
    1. Re:Obsession... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe if your little sister shed a few pounds and gave better head, he would have gone to see her.

  26. FoxTrot's Jason got beaten by his female friend! by antdude · · Score: 2, Funny

    See here. Pwned!

    --
    Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
  27. Closed Beta Raiders kill Live content? No wai... by Cookie3 · · Score: 5, Informative

    This story is not news.

    TwentyFifthNovember is a guild made up of Nihilum and SK-Gaming (aka Curse). Both guilds had members that experienced Naxxramas at level 60 (when it was originally released), and most of the bosses in Naxxramas (retuned and re-released for level 80) are largely unchanged since that time. Both of these guilds had very significant presences in the Closed Beta, where this raid content was available for anyone who could gather enough players. Many of them killed these bosses for weeks and months, before the game went live. The slight differences between these bosses at level 60 versus these bosses at level 80 is minor enough that even those who DIDN'T see the retuned content would still know how to get past it.

    Raiding in World of Warcraft is more about skill than gear (although there are a few hard gear checks, such as needing 8.5k HP to survive Naj'entus area-effect nuke). These guys certainly are skillful, but there was never any doubt that they would steamroll all of this content as soon as they hit 80. The slightly bigger concern is that they managed to get 25 members to level 80 in ~65 hours of gameplay. Still, with the first 80 after 27 hours, it wasn't unexpected. People were hitting level 70 in Burning Crusade in about the same amount of time, and once the strategy for doing so was optimized, anyone (with a lot of time, and/or friends) could grind out the levels.

    One thing to note is that these guys don't yet have the ultra-rare achievement awards, for example:
    http://www.wowhead.com/?achievement=2138

    Heroic Glory of the Raider involves a series of moderate to very hard challenges in Naxx, with the reward being an exclusive Proto-Drake mount. Until they get that, it's not news.. and even if they do get that, they've STILL got the qualifiers mentioned earlier.

    --
    present day... present time... hahahaha...
  28. Re:Video interview of Nymh! (1st person level 80 F by Neoprofin · · Score: 1

    Rickroll'd

  29. Re:Closed Beta Raiders kill Live content? No wai.. by codeonezero · · Score: 0, Redundant

    Bump parent up.

    These guilds make huge noise about it but they've basically cleared all the content and heavily "theorycrafted" the game for the last several months during Blizzard's beta stage.

    Although skill does play a part in raiding, everything in WoW can be cleared if you have enough time on your hands to do it. Skill can simply reduced the time to clear the content.

    Anyway, this is simply them saying "Wow Blizzard we beta tested the content for you, learned all the tricks to maximize our time to get to 80 and cleared the raid content on beta for you, and you didn't change one bit of it so we would be challenged. Srsly wtf??"

    --

    ....
    int main (void) { ... }

  30. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  31. Re:Closed Beta Raiders kill Live content? No wai.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    you really need to get a life guy.

  32. Quinn has gained the achievement: Realm First! by duckInferno · · Score: 1

    Over the weekend we saw the first players hit level 80. Some background; there are "realm first" achievements that, you guessed it, can only happen once. They're broadcast to the entire server when achieved. There's one for level 80, one for each race to 80, one for each class to 80. The first level 80 on our server (Qiin on Jubei'Thos) thus got three achievements: First to 80, first human to 80, first paladin to 80. The other achievements were gradually mopped up over the weekend by other players hitting it.

    The global announcement is nice but has a shit side effect: the general zone chat channel erupts into an hour's worth of the exact. same. conversation. It goes something like this.

    [Quinn] has gained the achievement: [Realm First!: First level 80 player]
    [Legolol]: wow
    [Xxlegolasxx]: lol nerd
    [Sepherothh]: omg get some sleep
    [Legoliroth]: wtf what a nerd probly has no life
    [Legless]: lol ur playing wow, dont call people nerds
    [Sexychickgirl]: yeh lol its just an achievment not worth playing all day
    [Moulinrogue]: sexychickgirl a/s/l
    [Siphiroth]: id want it ur just jealous
    [Sexychickgirl]: my names steve
    [Timthesorcerer]: omfg wat a nerd lol
    [Leggylass]: if ur playing wow ur a nerd stfu
    ...etc...

    It's the exact same conversation every time, just shuffled a bit. At least it'll be over soon... until the raids...

    --
    Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, watch it -- I'm huge!
  33. Yeah, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    None of those 8 are regexes and none of them use map or backticks!

  34. Nymh banned... by meuhlavache · · Score: 3, Interesting

    According to some players Nymh is banned cause due to some bad tricks. With others people from his guild he manage to hit mobs (monsters) the first and let his friends finish it. First to touch, first to get the XP... Good cheat but bad idea, Blizzard catch Nymh and now it's finnish for him. :)

    1. Re:Nymh banned... by Exitar · · Score: 1

      Nymh used only a healer and as far as I know wasn't banned.
      The person that was banned was Athene, who went in instances with other 4 people, left the group, tagged a mob (elite, more xp), all the party killed it, rejoined group, rinse and repeat.

    2. Re:Nymh banned... by duckInferno · · Score: 1

      Finnish? I thought he was french?

      --
      Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, watch it -- I'm huge!
    3. Re:Nymh banned... by meuhlavache · · Score: 1

      He's, and the only informations I got is he banned for some days.

  35. Re:Well the new Naxxrama's is meant to be like Kar by duckInferno · · Score: 1

    I'd imagine the pre-BC experience of the near-identical level 60 Naxxramas, the Sunwell-level gear that only just gets replaced around 79-80 and the guild members consisting of the two best guilds on the planet helped.

    --
    Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, watch it -- I'm huge!
  36. TwentyFifthNovember by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    My girlfriends sister is in TwentyFifthNovember =]

  37. Re:Closed Beta Raiders kill Live content? No wai.. by cratermoon · · Score: 1

    When I first started playing pencil & paper RPGs, we had a different name for 'theorycrafters'. We called them Munchkins.

  38. Hooray! by Greyfox · · Score: 2, Funny

    You got your entire guild to 80 and finished the end of game content. Back to gold farming until the next expansion...

    --

    I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?

  39. But dont level too fast, or you get banned. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I am not sure if the game is broken,
      or they want you to play it longer, ergo they get paid more - but they banned people who tried to level too fast by using mod tagging (Which was deemed legal by the GMs in the first place.)

      whole story here:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibSWooWOiO0

  40. Re:Video interview of Nymh! (1st person level 80 F by Neoprofin · · Score: 1
  41. Diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks by AlpineR · · Score: 1

    I have learned (from playing several thousand games of Starcraft) that players vary widely in their goal for a game. Some play to win by any means necessary, including hacks. Some play to win within the intended rules. Some play to do something nobody has ever done. Some play to win by every route possible. Some play to have interesting interactions and don't really care whether they win or lose.

    My favorite play style is the Mastermind, winning within the rules by manipulating others to work toward my own interests. That requires a lot of observation and psychology. I was often frustrated in my attempts to manipulate other players because I expected them to all play rationally, maximizing their own chance to win. But now I realize that each player has their own goal and by identifying it I can be much more successful in achieving mine.

    This also means that more than one player can feel triumphant even if the rules declare a single winner.

  42. Masses do not care for them. by unity100 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    In every game there are people who take it way seriously. i know that a percentage of people have prepared for this launch, planning, plotting, gathering resources to be the first at something, including levels. since wow now has an achievement system, every kind of zit you succeed gets recorded. not only reaching level 80 first. hence the rush.

    these people are powergamers. they do it with an attitude more serious than any job they work in. take turns and do whatnot. and a goodly number of them are beta testers, so already know what to do at what certain point. AND if they didnt get to level 80 in 15 hours, they would get to it in 3 days if it was way tougher, or if they didnt already clear the content in 3 days, they would do it in 3 weeks. it wouldnt matter for them.

    but the thing is, those people are SO in the minority among 18 million wow players that, what they do does not matter. for majority of that 18 million, which are mainly casual gamers, or gamers with scarce time in their hands (as many gamers mature in age, their life responsibilities weigh more).

    wow was WAY too tough for those people. not because they were stupid or lacked the capacity or 'skills' - as many powergamer cunts use in wow jargon - or anything - the casuals would not see WORKING for 4 hours a night for farming some boss in order to get an item that will better their gear with 2.5 %, SO that they will be better equipped to deal with a higher boss in another instance, and the gamers with responsibilities (grown ups) were short of time, being able to put only 4-5 hours a week to the game.

    this 'easiness' of new wow content will make sure that these people, who are actually the bulk of the subscribers, will be able to see end game content. this matters. because these people are the people paying the majority of the funds for this game, and providing for keep up of all those servers, personnel and development costs.

    powergamers are getting the shaft with this expansion. and fortunately so, for the sake of any game, they should indeed get the shaft. its way stupid torturing and alienating millions of players for the sake of satisfying a small percentage of achievement deranged powergamer individuals - that approach has sunk many games in the past.

    1. Re:Masses do not care for them. by Edgewize · · Score: 1

      "these people are powergamers. they do it with an attitude more serious than any job they work in"

      Actually, in the case of this guild, it is their job. TwentyFifthNovember is a sponsored "pro-gamer" team.

    2. Re:Masses do not care for them. by ukyoCE · · Score: 1

      Yep, Blizz devs have stated that very, very few players have seen most of the endgame dungeons. For instance the decision to bring back Naxx in LK was in part recycling content, but it's content that really no one had seen in the first place. Even Kara was "too hard" for more than a small percentage of players to get into.

      That's not to say there's anything wrong with these "pro gamers" - everyone has some hobby that someone else thinks is weird. But from Blizzard's perspective it's not a good use of their money to make content that no one can enjoy.

      Although it does seem like a good idea to make dungeons start out hard and then get easier - whether that's done through nerfing the content, making better gear more accessible, buffing players in general (as with the 3.02 patch), or some other method. This would keep hardcore players busy on difficult content, but still filter it down to the massive player base eventually.

      Better yet, this lets them use/abuse the hardcore players as a beta for rooting out bugs and tuning the encounters before putting out to the majority of players.

      So everyone would win, really. I'm not sure why this kind of curve hasn't been (intentionally) put in place yet.

  43. In addition, content is good this time by unity100 · · Score: 1

    To be honest, the burning crusade seemed to have gotten out of the head of 3-4 designers smoking some WAY heavy sh@t. it was half delusional, absurd, stuff not fitting in each other in the world, killing the atmosphere occasionally.

    this northrend thing however, seems to be done very neatly. the atmosphere is something you can relate to, quests are well written. but whats more important, quests are easily played. you are no longer having to endure endless grinding of 42423424 mobs for 10% per mob drop chance sh@t to complete a quest. now it seems like there is an actual story, and all quests just flow with it.

    this is good.

    storytelling, fluency instead of satisfying achievement hungry individuals.

    just check playstation, check wii, check their concepts and see what makes people happy, and makes money.

    to be honest i didnt expect that good an expansion from blizzard. the main reason i was playing wow was for pvp (it has a very active 40 vs 40 man battleground) for the last year, and nothing else, but the new thing is shiny and well told, that i am actually really playing its content now.

    if they keep it up, they wont lose, but gain many active subscribers.

  44. Re:Closed Beta Raiders kill Live content? No wai.. by glwtta · · Score: 1

    This story is not news.

    I'll do you one better: even without all the stuff you brought up (and thank you for being so thorough) the fact that a bunch of dorks didn't leave their mothers' basements for three days to beat some expansion pack, would still not be news.

    --
    sic transit gloria mundi
  45. what the f@ck are you doing replying him by unity100 · · Score: 0, Troll

    if you dont care. develop some consistency of character first, and then post in forums, moron.

  46. Wow battlegrounds - TOTAL mayhem by unity100 · · Score: 1

    im from starcraft background. im from the generation that played starcraft online back in 1998-99 for the first time. then fpses, for the first time were coming online.

    but to this day, among all those games, i didnt see the mayhem and carnage that happens in a wow 40 vs 40 man battleground.

    imagine logging into a game. imagine reappearing where you logged out (battleground battlemasters). imagine clicking on a battlemaster, and saying 'join' for a 40 man battleground queue.

    imagine being in that battleground just FIVE seconds after clicking it, with 79 players apart from you.

    imagine total chaos and mayhem happening for the next 20-30 minutes.

    and after it finishes, imagine clicking on the battlemaster again and getting into another 40 man bg session in just 5 seconds again.

    this kind of ease, i have never seen in any game, even half life versions. you dont need to organize anything, you dont have to schedule, you dont have to wait for anything, you just hop in.

    this ease of use and the content you are able to get with that ease is what makes wow successful.

    so far this was only valid for battlegrounds, pvp. pve, ie raiding, instancing, kinda 'adventuring' if you will, was a looooong tough grind, and boring.

    it appears with this expansion blizzard caught the wave, and turned to easier but fun gameplay like the wii concept.

    this works for everyone. i for one, dont like pve, however im looking forward to going into some of those new dungeons and instances. and since im playing games since zx spectrum days, im VERY hard to satisfy - this is a measure of new expansion's success for me.

    1. Re:Wow battlegrounds - TOTAL mayhem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Perhaps you should have tried Warhammer Online.

      Players there have been doing this for months. Start a scenario from anywhere, return exactly where you came from after reveling in the chaos. Hop into an Keep siege just by showing up at the warcamps.

      Well, Blizzard copied Warhammer when they made most of the premise/lore for Warcraft, they might as well copy the MMO mechanics too.

    2. Re:Wow battlegrounds - TOTAL mayhem by unity100 · · Score: 1

      well, people from guild and other online communities have gone into warhammer, and their feedback has not been good.

    3. Re:Wow battlegrounds - TOTAL mayhem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, after years of WoW, I'd imagine that anything with a challenge would be poorly received.

      The best thing about WoW is how it keeps the children and those adults with similar levels of maturity out of better games.

    4. Re:Wow battlegrounds - TOTAL mayhem by unity100 · · Score: 1

      the guildies are from star wars galaxies, and this is the guild that built the biggest city in the most crowded server in that game. it took a year and a half to do it. probably most of the new players think that city is a dev city even now.

      the other community i have been talking about is the national starcraft community. most of them joined tournaments, and also national champions that went to the world championships came up from among them.

      there is nothing that would scare this people in the form of challenge.

      if a game does not deliver, they dont play it.

      dont be a zealot. clouds your judgment.

  47. Frozen throne is different by Billly+Gates · · Score: 1

    I was watching an interview with blizzard on www.youtube.com from pc game magazine.

    Basically they learned alot from the mediocre BC launch and improved it.

    The differences are Northrend is much bigger than the outlands, an achievement based system has been added so its not just about questing. The achievement is kind of hard to explain unless you play it but there are over 50 achievements and some of them unlock items you can buy which is really sweet.

    Frozen throne is not just about a new map but game play and quests are more interactive. For example there is a crazy set of quests for Death knights and each time you leave the ship with Arathas the map changes and it gives the appearance of a full scourage invasion. In the end of the chain arathas comes down himself and argues with the other players before you are released from the scourge. I was wondering how the scourage would fit in with alliance vs horde but this was amazingly creative.

    I hope I didn't spoil too much but wow feels like its a new upgrade and an almost overall with the 3.0 patches from the lich king expansion.

    1. Re:Frozen throne is different by forgotten_my_nick · · Score: 1

      I've only been playing WoW for a couple of days from WOTLK version. To me it feels a lot like what Asheron Call 2 felt like. Except the travel is done a lot better and there are more players on the server.

      AC2 had professions not unlike WoW has. As for achievements you have them in other games as well. City of Heroes has a "Badge" system which does the same thing. You do certain things, you get a badge (achievement) and some give you bonus or special items/powers.

      To be honest, so far the game is no different then many of the MMOs out there. Reminds me a lot of AC/AC2 though for scale of map size and grind required after a point.

      But I'm a casual gamer/explorer so should keep me interested for a while.

  48. challenges are meant for real life by unity100 · · Score: 1

    not for a game. games are entertainment. they are what you do, AFTER you get to home.

    1. Re:challenges are meant for real life by SL+Baur · · Score: 1

      games are entertainment. they are what you do, AFTER you get to home.

      Stan! Stan! Can I join you guys? I'm playing from work.

      Dad! Get off our teamspeak line.

  49. Get quest helper by unity100 · · Score: 2, Informative

    the "Quest Helper" addon from wow.curse.com will make sure that you spend less time finding where things are, and spend your time for experiencing them instead.

    1. Re:Get quest helper by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Disagree. QuestHelper basically turns the game into "follow these arrows!" and strips away any reason to explore the world.

      Get Cartographer and the quest notes plugin for it, instead. It adds a clickable "where is this on the map?" button in your quest log, which you can choose to look at or not.

    2. Re:Get quest helper by unity100 · · Score: 1

      you can choose to look at arrows or not, too.

  50. bullshit by unity100 · · Score: 0, Troll

    i have 2 70s, a 62 dk, a 32 warrior a 43 lock, a 40 mage a 43 hunter and a 16 druid, and i can tell you that your perceptive is totally distorted.

    it has been made so that you are getting levels even if you cough up. all quests and monsters give 30% more xp from level 25 to level 70 now. getting to level 25 is just 8 hours or so playtime at most.

    even casual players are rapidly leveling up now. if you arent able, then there is a problem with your setup.

  51. not years. approx 10 months. by unity100 · · Score: 1

    blizzard announced that it would put out yearly expansions at the same time each year. when tbc was out last year, preparations for woltk started. hence there is not an effort of years went into this expansion.

    1. Re:not years. approx 10 months. by Edgewize · · Score: 1

      Uhh, TBC came out in Jan 2007. It is now Nov 2008.

      They announced that they would LIKE to do yearly expansions. So far there is nothing yearly about them.

  52. Re:Closed Beta Raiders kill Live content? No wai.. by unity100 · · Score: 1

    like you did, trolling anonymously in forums ?

  53. are you stupid ? by unity100 · · Score: 1

    if you are taking 'conquering' or 'achieving' things as entertainment, you got serious problems.

    these stuff are for workplace, or career. NOT home, playing with your friends.

  54. what does this post mean ? by unity100 · · Score: 1

    really, can someone explain it to me ? and why is it insightful ?

  55. Re:Closed Beta Raiders kill Live content? No wai.. by Macgrrl · · Score: 1

    We called the Rule Lawyers.

    Munchkins were people who QQ and don't don't bother understanding the rules properly, they just want the biggest +dmg whatever item is going.

    --
    Sara
    Designer, Gamer, Macgrrl in an XP World
  56. Queuing for an expansion pack by DrXym · · Score: 1
    It's sad enough when anyone queues more than a few minutes for *any* consumer kit. But an expansion pack? Jesus Christ how sad is that?

    I just hope the next time an expansion pack appears, that they make people queue at noon, not midnight. These people need as much sunshine as they can get.

  57. MOD PARENT UP by SilentSheep · · Score: 1

    Wish i had mod points today. I've never read a better explanation of how i feel about the 'Real Life' meme, as mentioned by the GP.

    --
    .
  58. This. Is. NORTHREND! by Drakkenmensch · · Score: 1

    The speed at which they achieved the result of clearing all the raid content is a lot less impressive when you consider that they've had WEEKS of beta testing time to experience and practice it. Once the content went live, it was just like the premiere of a well-rehearsed play.

  59. But dragons by Huggs · · Score: 2, Funny

    are the best part!

  60. Re:Closed Beta Raiders kill Live content? No wai.. by elseedy · · Score: 0

    From what I've heard, they didn't all get to 80, the raid had a lot of 70/71s. The best level 70 gear (which they have plenty of) is still better than most of the pre-raid gear at 80, so they were already well geared for this. And as you level, your gear actually gets weaker due to how combat ratings work.

    Furthermore, the bosses are considered to be 3 levels higher than players, be they 80 or 70 (or 1, for that matter). The main reason to level up is to actually use the gear that drops from these bosses (the gear requires level 80 to be equipped).

  61. Its all about the gold.. by tetrisornot · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I actually only play this game because of the auctions and virtual economy. So this game isn't just for people who like to raid or pvp. I don't quest unless I need to level and I don't raid to get gear. I just make money and buy my gear, with the occasional pvp here and there. There are many different ways to have fun in this game but this is by far the least time sinking. WOW is a time sink if you let it, I typically spend 10 hours a week on this game, with auctioning and arena. Just about any raider will have to log 20-30 hours a week to keep up with raiding requirements.

    1. Re:Its all about the gold.. by ukyoCE · · Score: 1

      My friends think I'm crazy, but I'm the same way. Spent an hour this morning buying low and selling high.

      3.02 was great, jacked up the prices of herbs through the roof with inscription :)

      I also got a few hundred G off being able to transmute primal might without a cooldown, before others caught on.

  62. Hold on... by interploy · · Score: 1

    This is /. and this conversation cannot continue without a reference to the following:

    Sounds like a beowulf cluster.

    Okay, carry on.

  63. WoW addiction by fialar · · Score: 1

    I used to play WoW and was quite addicted to it. I think all these expansions are just to make the players trudge further on their treadmills because all that grinding and raiding they just did the past 20 months is obsolete now. I stopped playing the game the day Burning Crusade came out. It just stopped being fun. You'd get into PVP and there'd be these coordinated groups from other servers who get in with their twinkest gear and they'd just mow you down. It stopped being fun.

    Raiding used to bore me to tears, too.

    http://wowdetox.com - best site ever made

  64. Meanwhile Something Else Is Going On by Toad-san · · Score: 1

    I have several reports (two from WoW players I know personally) of what might be a new flaw or crack.

    Stealing players' accounts, gold, bank holdings, etc. is not new in WoW. In the past it was from the player doing something very stupid and compromising his account (like paying someone to "power-level" his character), giving out their own username and password. Phthth, a pox on them, they brought it on themselves and I have no sympathy.

    But the new threat is more troublesome: You come back after installing the new expansion, and your account doesn't exist, or there's a problem. You contact Blizzard, get it activated again, and you find your gold is all gone, your bank is empty. Your character is NOT stripped or looted.

    You contact Blizzard and they say they can't do anything about that right now.

    Apparently, in each of the cases I heard of, you got a mail message (in WoW mail) from a fellow Guild member (_prior_ to the latest expansion). "Please let me borrow your account for a bit" (for whatever reason, wants to examine the interface, wants to try out the character, etc.)

    I don't have details on that yet, but the message is convincing, seems authentic, is definitely from a known and supposedly trusted player, in all cases that I've seen so far in the same guild.

    Your character is NOT looted prior to the new expansion; only when you return.

    Interesting, eh?

  65. Waiting to be laid off, so I play 24/7 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm gonna have to wait till i get laid off to immerse myself in wow once more. It's a great way to waste time while I wait for the recession to end, hmm, that is till I run out of money to pay the rent, and then darn it, I'll have to get another 80 hour job again.. real life sucks!

    By the way, wow players with no life, go get your self a copy of adobe lightroom, a low end dslr, go hit www.modelmayhem.com, and start building your fashion model portfolio... it sure beats looking at guys playing female cartoon characters on WOW, and you learn all kind of things about fashion, nudes, and fetish photography.. all in the name of ART!

  66. I'm with you except on #2 by Prien715 · · Score: 1

    I disagree with myth 2, but I think you do too:

    Myth 2. WoW is a giant grind

    While this is subjective, I have to argue against it. It is true that the first 50-60 levels of WoW are definitely repetitive....

    Last I checked, the game had a 80 level limit. Meaning 60/80 is somewhere around 3/4s of the game being repetitive (or half if you believe there's a lot of content post level cap). And every level I get, I wish for some light at the end of the tunnel;)

    --
    -- Political fascism requires a Fuhrer.
    1. Re:I'm with you except on #2 by duckInferno · · Score: 1

      Granted I have experience, but I can get a character to 50 over a weekend. I can then enjoy that character to its fullest over the next year. Like most MMO's, the earliest levels are the easiest. You shouldn't look at 80 levels and think the first 20 make up 1/4 of the game.

      --
      Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, watch it -- I'm huge!
    2. Re:I'm with you except on #2 by robosmurf · · Score: 1

      Like most mmo games, leveling gets harder as you get higher.

      The first 60 levels are a relatively small part of the game now.

  67. interesting and insightful comment by DRAGONWEEZEL · · Score: 1

    I do think that there is something addictive about WoW. But it's O.K. I can quit anytime. I swear it. But I agree it is fun. I try to limit my play to ~ 10 hrs a week. I have too much to do!

    The graphics really did jump up a notch w/ WotLK though it will allways be sub par compared to whatever FPS is out there today. The modeled world is just too large for that. If you want wow to run like Crysis, jack your resolution up to 2048x1536 (what I ran pre wotlk) Trust me, it's pretty thrashing on a dual proc & 8800, striped baracudas & 4gigs of ram.

    I was at our local Wally world who did a 12:01 release, and it was really interesting to see the different people. You could tell who played undead rogues just by looking @ them. There was this 6' 250lb guy there who I swear plays a demure gnomish mage 8')... I even real life girls! Girls in line, other than my wife! Admittedly none of them were "hot" only 1 was close, and by close I mean w/in 2 pts on a 5 pt scale, but...

    Anyway, I am so far really happy w/ the expansion, though I only have about 4 hrs into it.

    REXXAR FTW!

    --
    How much is your data worth? Back it up now.
    1. Re:interesting and insightful comment by duckInferno · · Score: 1

      I'm a 6 foot male that plays a gnome female warrior. She kicks total ass and is extremely fun to play (and as a practical aside, her small size is a huge boon in PvP). I only wish that gnomes had a greater class selection. :)

      --
      Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, watch it -- I'm huge!
    2. Re:interesting and insightful comment by DRAGONWEEZEL · · Score: 1

      haha Yeah they do... They hide well too 'till a hunter turns on tracking that is... 8'( I love casting non "missle" spells while hiding in a bush, they never see it!

      --
      How much is your data worth? Back it up now.
  68. "entitled" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The correct word is "titled [0]
    'Wrath of the Lich King'." "Entitled" is something that you own or are owed; for example, you are entitled to unemployment benefits IF you worked in the last year. Doesn't anyone here read "Frazz"?

  69. Epic Post by znerk · · Score: 1

    Signed.

    --
    This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 Unported License.
  70. level 80 != conquering the game by destiney · · Score: 1

    There are _years_ of "end game" content that you can't even begin to play until you reach max level.

    Anyone who thinks getting to 80 is "conquering the game" hasn't a clue as to the depth of WoW.

    There's a reason why it has 11M subscribers, and sadly you missed it.

  71. No Problem! by SL+Baur · · Score: 1

    In the end were all corpses,

    I don't know about you, but I'm just going to run back to my corpse from the nearest graveyard and resurrect.

  72. Re:Closed Beta Raiders kill Live content? No wai.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is correct. The hardcore achievement hasn't been completed, but it was more convenient for Ensidia to announce that they are done and claim the crown. Technically the raiding game has not been completed because noone has gotten the raiding achievement yet. This is Blizzard's new way to tune content for multiple levels of committment. Normal raiding is entry level, doing the achievement, which include undermanning, time runs and no-death kills are the hardcore achievements. News will be when the world first Heroic: Glory of the Raider has been announced.

    For now it is kind of news that Ensidia complains that everything is easy when they aren't even done with the content yet as it is intended for them, namely the hardcore achievements.