Slashdot Mirror
The Economist Suggests Linux For Netbooks
Trepidity writes "In its roundup of how to choose a netbook, The Economist suggests that users 'avoid the temptation' to go for a Windows-based netbook, and in particular to treat them as mini laptops on which you'll install a range of apps. In their view, by the time you add the specs needed to run Windows and Windows apps effectively, you might as well have just bought a smallish laptop. Instead, they suggest the sweet spot is ultra-lite, Linux-based netbooks, with a focus on pre-installed software that caters to common tasks. They particularly like OpenOffice, which they rate as easier to use than MS Word and having 'no compatibility problems,' as well as various photo-management software." Besides which, does Windows offer spinning cubes for coffee-shop demos?
Nonsense, OpenOffice Word has a ton of problems with mathematical formulas, also I've had problems with images that open fine on msword but don't under OpenOffice. Otherwise it works well, I've moved from Word to OpenOffice.
Besides which, does Windows offer spinning cubes for coffee-shop demos?
No, just flying chairs
I am a free slashdotter. I will not be modded, blogged, DRM'd, patented, podcasted or RFID'd. My life is my own.
The big problem here is whether you'll be allowed to buy a mini notebook with 1GB and a 120-160 MB hard disk without Windows. Microsoft certainly does not want notebook vendors selling them that way, and has effective strategies to induce them not to do so.
I expect they start with legal bribes, price structures effecting both the vendors larger systems and the smaller ones, and if that doesn't work the patent portfolio comes out and they discuss whether you'd like to cross-license on their terms or be sued.
All of which means you won't see many of the Linux machines at retail. So, the customer has to self-install, which is beyond most of them.
Bruce Perens.
The target market for netbooks is generally "normal people", who are more or less by definition not editing Word documents with mathematical formulas in them.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
microsoft will lose, they can not dictate what hardware specs or what operating system is installed other companies put in to their laptops, this bullying by microsoft needs to stop some judge with cajones and integrity needs to put microsoft in their place...
Politics is Treachery, Religion is Brainwashing
I'm not quite as cynical as you in that I don't think Microsoft can stop this revolution.
In order to make money they have to charge something for their software. Linux will always be cheaper than a Windows machine.
Apple were smart in positioning themselves as the luxury computer brand.
Linux has made inroads in cheap ultra-portables. Windows has no-where to go. It's too slow for ultra-portables, it's too low quality for a luxury product.
Ultra-portables are probably the future of computing. We're getting to the point where mobile contracts are being sold with a free ultra-portable.
To me, it's much like what happened when the RIAA got in bed with Walmart. The RIAA stabbed record stores in the back by dealing with Walmart.
The record stores had their interests aligned with the RIAA. The more music they sold, the more money they made and the more money the RIAA made.
However, Walmart was a different animal. To Walmart, music was just something that took up shelf space. Suddenly the RIAA was competing with every other product.
The RIAA found that it couldn't dictate the terms any more because Walmart had no qualms about dropping their product if they couldn't get a good deal. The RIAA, owing a good chunk of its revenue to Walmart, suddenly found itself to be Oliver saying: "Please sir, can I have some more?"
In the past Micrsoft could bully system builders because they are like the record stores used to be . They have a vested interest in selling units which is mutually beneficial for both the system builder and Microsoft.
However, computers are now becoming so cheap that they're being given away as a part of other deals. The people crafting these deals don't give a crap if it's Microsoft or not. They can't be bullied because their main line of business has little to do with Microsoft.
Economics is a force more powerful than any individual company. Microsoft is not above this. Vista, to me, just confirmed that Microsoft is just another company. They don't need to make too many more mistakes before it starts to hurt really badly.
I think we're beginning to see the end of the Microsoft monoculture.
You talk as if this is something MS might try, when we all know that they've been doing it routinely all along. But this kind of tactic doesn't seem to be working with netbooks. Companies seem to have no trouble making and selling simple Linux netbooks.
The sad thing is that this is not entirely a win for Linux. Yes, it means increased market share. But it only succeeds because there's a basic set of Internet tools that everybody uses and that can be implemented on any widely-used OS. That being the case, vendors might as well use an OS that doesn't come with license fees.
But that means nobody will be able to make a living writing applications for these netbooks — they already have all the software their users need. Most desktop applications will continue to be coded against Microsoft's convoluted, inconsistent, and buggy APIs and platforms.
What kind of economists are they? Never heard of the "Broken Window Theory"?
The big problem here is whether you'll be allowed to buy
a mini notebook with 1GB and a 120-160 MB hard disk without
Windows.
Given TFA's reference to Businesspeople and the current climate of data security breaches and cross-boarder laptop seizures, it is probably NOT advisable for businesspeople to carry around more than 10GB of data with them. Rather, they should access it by VPN or via encrypted flash storage.
For the rest of us nerds though, who like to have hundreds of gigs of por^H^H^H relevant facts and figures with us at all times, will be able to do as you say, self-install.
Theres nothing illegal about it. Microsoft does dictate hardware specs to manufacturers, as they have in the past and will continue in the future. If the manufacturer wants to continue selling MS products on their machine, they have to play by their rules. Why do you think they cant sell you a system with no OS?
If sharing a song makes you a pirate, what do I have to share to be a ninja?
..for the Year of the Linux Netbook.
The netbook is ideal for mobile connectivity. Good look getting your mobile broadband device to play well with Linux.
The big problem here is whether you'll be allowed to buy a mini notebook with 1GB and a 120-160 MB hard disk without Windows. Microsoft certainly does not want notebook vendors selling them that way, and has effective strategies to induce them not to do so.
I expect they start with legal bribes, price structures effecting both the vendors larger systems and the smaller ones, and if that doesn't work the patent portfolio comes out and they discuss whether you'd like to cross-license on their terms or be sued.
That won't mean anything to a chinese company willing to sell a netbook online for a hundred bucks.
http://michaelsmith.id.au
gOS Linux at $300
7" screen, VIA CPU, 512 MB RAM, 30 GB HDD
Windows XP at $350
8.9" screen, Atom CPU, 1 GB RAM, 120 GB HDD.
SUSE Linux at $400
9" Screen, VIA CPU, 512 MB RAM, 4 GB Flash, and a webcam. Not sold in stores.
Windows XP at $400
9" Screen, 1 GB RAM, 160 GB HDD and a webcam. In some stores. Mini-Laptops
The Economist ~ understates ~ the advantages of being able to run your Windows apps on your netbook - and there is really nothing in F/OSS of interest to the general consumer market that isn't available for Windows.
yeah, i would rather buy a PC or laptop without an OS (or with Linux) than with windows included,,,
some people just refuse to use/want or buy windows, i am one of them...
Politics is Treachery, Religion is Brainwashing
Finally, the big breakthrough.
This time it's definitely true: 2009 is the year of Linux on the deskt... netbook!
So buy it with Windows and get your refund.
Consider the refund as a payment by Microsoft for you installing Linux.
Needing a computer with 1gb of ram, and especially a 120-160 GB hard disk (I assumed you meant GB for hard disks) is exactly what the economist is cautioning against, treating a netbook as a general laptop, and not a machine designed to do a small set of specific tasks.
Which won't mean a thing when that Chinese company suddenly finds that its exports have been blocked and that the US media is filled with stories about how they use lead, melanine, or Polonium-210 in their manufacturing processes.
Nothing that can be proven, of course, but then have you ever asked to see proof when that has happened before?
The problem is with OEMs and marketers, not MSFT. If past year serves a good experience, MSFT does not have to convince OEMs to put Windows first. Wal-Mart shelved the gPC, and Acer and Eee both start advertising more XP books than Linux. The failings of Vista should have given Dell and HP a good window of opportunity to push for Linux OS, but what did they do? CHARGE MORE FOR DOWNGRADE TO XP! The turning point will come only if there is 1) a clear profitability from Linux netbooks; 2) there is a ton of volunteer army of Linux geeks willing to help the average citizens; 3) there is a great consumer "Killer App" only available to Linux; or 4) Google come out with a gNetbook. Otherwise consumers vote with their pocket books will go for what they are used to (Windows) every time.
90% monopoly brainwashes a LOT of people. And getting people to change their habits is the hardest thing in the world.
Small, cheap mini-notebooks like this, or "netbooks" as they have come to be called, are not as fast or as capable as a big computer
Really? My "big" computer is a 5-year old Shuttle with a 1.8 GHZ P4, 160GB HDD, 1GB RAM, built-in Intel 82845G/GE graphics, a DVD burner, and an Atheros-based wireless card. I didn't claim it was brand-spanking new. I've got a couple of even bigger computers, but the Shuttle is faster and has more RAM. My Acer Aspire One is a little slower on some tasks than the Shuttle, but faster on others, and doesn't have an optical drive. I can live without the optical drive. The Aspire One replaced a 4-year old Averatec 3250 laptop which had a 1.67GHz Athlon, 60GB HDD, 512 MB RAM, onboard S3 Unichrome graphics, a CDRW/DVD ROM, a RaLink RT2500 wireless chip. The Averatec, like my AA1, came with WinXP. If a 1.67GHz Athlon with 512 MB RAM and a 60 GB HDD was adequate for WinXP four years ago, why isn't a 1.67 GHz Atom with 1GB RAM and 120GB HDD? Besides, I didn't buy my AA1 to run WinXP, I bought to run Fedora and Ubuntu and Puppy Linux, which is does very well, thank you.
Geology - it's not rocket science; it's rock science
The classic case is the Dell mini 9. This costs more to buy fully loaded hardware and linux than it does after the cashback offer with the xp version. but then I guess you are only getting an 8 year old obsolete os with xp but a fully supported and modern os with Uuntu 8) maybee that should cost more as the premium OS choice.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
The main point of the article as I read it is that it makes more sense to treat netbooks as powerful PDAs rather than as weak laptops. People don't really expect their smartphones, for example, to run Windows apps, but instead expect them to have some useful functionality built in that is not too hard to figure out. Seen that way, a netbook with a web-browser, decent office package, and some camera-syncing software built in ought to be sufficient for many people, especially those who do much of their "real" computing on the web (use gmail, manage their pictures via flickr, etc.).
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
The big problem here is whether you'll be allowed to buy a mini notebook with 1GB and a 120-160 MB hard disk without Windows. Microsoft certainly does not want notebook vendors selling them that way, and has effective strategies to induce them not to do so.
I know that at least from my local computer stores here in Norway I can chose between Linux or a Version of XP when buying an Asus EEE. So you are definitely "allowed" to buy a notebook without Windows in some countries; and I don't believe Norway is the only place where this is the case.
The Long Now Foundation
1) a clear profitability from Linux netbooks
Dell is ready with this interesting product, of course only with Ubuntu and XP (no Vista):
http://www.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/laptop-inspiron-9?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs
>>2) there is a ton of volunteer army of Linux geeks willing to help the average citizens
No... there must be an army of geeks able to design GUIs for average citizens.
>>3) there is a great consumer "Killer App" only available to Linux
For me, the "lack" of a really "Killer consumer App" is enough: antivirus!
>> 4) Google come out with a gNetbook.
sorry, I didn't got this.
Geeks like their toys - and they(we!) know what to do with the toys. They don't need an advice column to tell us to run linux. But ordinary users do need this advice. And most of them listen to music on their computers, or at least use their PC's or laptops to sync with iPod. iTunes and iPod are no longer used by only "some" users - they are used by a vast majority. And until linux can run iTunes, recommending linux would be a generally bad idea when such advice is targetted at 'normal' users. The least that such advice columnists can do is to note that there are some defciencies to this advice that readers should be mindful of. For eg., if the assumption is that a netbook is a 2nd or 3rd computer owned purley for 'roaming' purposes, maybe this is not a huge concern. But 'normal' users tend to own 1, or max 2 PC's. Many don't care to own even 1, and if they can get a mobile PC for $300, they'd jump at it. And if it won't run iTunes, they'll return it, or worse, complain about linux (bad publicity is worse than no publicity).
http://blog.laptopmag.com/msi-wind-coming-to-major-retailer-new-models-coming-soon MSI's director of sales for US is quoted as saying that Linux based netbooks are returned 4 times as often as Windows based netbooks.
Don't worry, it will.
http://www.mhall119.com
My friend (not a Linux user at all) says the same: Netbooks need to be cheap and should have a long running time. Flash drive instead of moving parts hd. Linux is the natural choice for that.
Only problem is: Most of the hardware is very poorly put together and the software is much worse. How much does it cost to pay someone to make a useable image of Xubuntu or Fedora sth. and put it on one of those things? Is that really so difficult?
I bought an Asus EEE PC 900A from Bestbuy. At $280, it is a bargain. However, I really hated Xandros on it (disclaimer, all my machines are either Debain or kubuntu). What kind of f*ck head installs an OS on 4GB SSD and leave on 100MB or so for updates. What is more, after my first update attempt the disk became full and update applet stopped in middle of a download. After several reboots, the applet always started automatically and always hanged. Wireless was also similarly not connecting. Add this to the fact that several programs took forever to run, I said f*ck with Xandros, and installed Ubuntu-eee. The difference is like night and day. I suggest EEE PC with ubuntu to everybody. Install once and leave it there. The moral of the story? If a dedicated linux user since 1994 is frustrated with a linux based netbook, why the regular people shouldn't be? The manufacturers MUST use Ubuntu-EEE or similar stable, easy to use and efficient distro.
Even for non net books, Linux is just better than windows for mobiles.
Unlike with a desktop computer, you can't easily replace the screen, keyboard, and pointing device of a laptop computer. So how do you try a Linux laptop when the local stores don't sell any Linux laptop other than an ASUS Eee PC? Do you try a Windows model in-store and mail-order the Linux version? Do you try a Windows model, put everything listed in Device Manager into Google to make sure it works with Linux, buy the laptop, and wipe it with Ubuntu? Or do you buy your Linux laptops sight unseen and pay the restocking fee if you can't stand the keyboard or screen?
A dell Mini 9 (aka Inspiron 910) Nice little machine seems more rugged feeling than some of the other models I've seen.
Partly got that one because it had Ubuntu 8.10 pre-installed (and it was great to pull it right out of the shipping box and show it off with ubuntu all pre-installed), from the forums it seems to install Ubuntu from scratch pretty painlessly. Secondly,the RAM & SSD drives are very easy to upgrade.
I have to say that the added Dell launcher (go-home-applet), a preferred apps/documents panel, is VERY nice and easy to use and modify, reminds me of the useful old Mac OS launcher. Wireless just worked. Default update repository is Dell's own mini OS mirror but you can easily activate the official ubuntu libraries and install more.
Wife seems to like it so far. I myself think it will be great for netting on the go or for a poor co's portable data collection terminal, but for full programming or other work a larger unit would be more comfortable. Then again if it were my 'first' computer I think it is more than capable, especially w/adding an inexpensive external CD/DVD drive.
"Enjoy what you're doing! If it becomes drudgery, you're doing it wrong!" - Jim Butterfield
Yet again, some self appointed pundit climbs the soap box to preach Linux uberness. OpenOffice is ass, it is slow, buggy and not ready for Prime Time. As far as actual day to day use, I really challenge the writer of the article to actually USE the products that he exaults and disses before making innane recommendations, among other things with a straight face compare Xandros to XP... I finally upgraded to Samsungs NC10-14GW from the POS EEE and it freakin rocks, nothing and I mean NOTHING compares to it. Before buying the Sammy I used my bosses Asus 1000 (he tried Ubuntu 8.10 install first with OO and then installed XP Pro and M$ Office instead because OO choked on most of the Excel spreadsheets. I also tried (although very briefly) my friends MSI Wind (he put XP Pro in it, but I didnt like the ergonomics and the battery life was a joke). Considering how stupid cheap these things are, why not get the best and most stable set up so you dont have to dick around after the fact and pay with the most expensive thing of all - your time. BTW to satisfy my occasional naughty need for Linux I still run Backtrack 3 from a 2cm USB minidongle with a 4gb microSD. So when I am stuck in an airport I can still catch up on work and play games (you know, the kind that dont work on Linux).
BTW, as far as "The Economists" writers credibility, I think this pretty much trashes it
The Acer has a built-in webcam, which makes it ideal for video-calling services such as Skype. Admittedly, installing third-party software can be a bit of a fiddle, and some of the advice available online threatens to lure users into the tangled depths of the Linux undergrowth, where few people will want to venture. But as netbooks become more prevalent, such difficulties are likely to ease.
Please note, vast majority of the Netbooks shipping TODAY (not the alpha batch) is shipping with Windows.
I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own.
The advertisements all over the Economist page (top and bottom banners and embedded in the article itself) are for the Asus N series notebooks. Which make a point of promoting the Express Gate instant-on linux environment built into the motherboard.
So even if they buy one with Windows XP or Vista installed, the first thing to run when they switch it on will be Linux with FireFox.
LaTeX
Typesetting system well-suited for typesetting math
This is a package you can install on ubuntu to add support for typesetting math-rich documents. Havee you tried this?
The average citizens seem to like XFCE (a classic window manager with a few apps) and not the heavy duty KDE/Gnome GUI. Not sure what to make of that but for many years I tended to use WindowMaker because I liked the speed and KDE only when I would be running lots of Kapps.
Maybe average users aren't so different if given a fair choice?
Problem is, most Netbooks are bought by companies, that use them for transport and showing PowerPoint presentations at meetings, so for that purpose, you need Windows.
Also, 3G mobile modems are almost impossible to get to work under Linux, and most business have neither the time or the knowledge to get it working. With windows, you just plug it in the USB port and the driver installs itself.
So basically, for business use, you just need Windows XP.
Sad, but very much true.
-H
Look around at prices online. If that's really the case then why is it I can get a Win XP Acer Aspire One 8.9-Inch Netbook (e.g. @ Amazon.com) with 1 GB RAM, 120 GB Hard Drive, and 3 Cell Battery for $350, but the Linpus Linux Lite one only has 512 MB RAM, 8 GB Solid State Drive instead of a HD, and a standard battery, and that's about $300.
The hardware differences alone should be more than a $50 drop in price. It's like you're getting a discount for adding Win XP to the device.
If you start with the $350 XP model and deduct the cost of the hardware differences, and deduct the cost of XP, the Linux one by comparison should probably be more like $200.
So what's up with that?
The blurb may be a little misleading, since it seems to suggest that this is some kind of recommendation from the Economist, which doesn't do product reviews in general.
This is part of a (very interesting) collection of "end of year technology roundup" type articles (see for instance my favorite article on quieter tank treads). All the writer really says is "if you buy one of these the point is low cost and simplicity -- so don't be tempted to spend extra on Windows, or you might as well buy a laptop".
The author is actually kind of against the choice of Linux in a way, as he makes it sound like adding extra software is a royal pain: "Admittedly, installing third-party software can be a bit of a fiddle, and some of the advice available online threatens to lure users into the tangled depths of the Linux undergrowth, where few people will want to venture"...
JF
If you're planning to use Ubuntu, the best approach is to scope out the laptop on the Ubuntu Wiki first. It isn't absolutely comprehensive, but it does cover the majority of popular laptops. I assume that other major distros have their own compatibility lists, and if your distro of choice doesn't, well, use the Ubuntu list, and at least you know that someone somewhere got your laptop working under Linux.
You probably installed Linux on your laptops yourself though, right? And it was distributions that hadn't been designed with your hardware in mind specifically, right?
If you buy a netbook and the OEM Linux distro, customized by the manufacturer, doesn't run the hardware properly, please let us know.
DRM: Terminator crops for your mind!
Linux has made inroads in cheap ultra-portables. Windows has no-where to go. It's too slow for ultra-portables, it's too low quality for a luxury product.
Since when is a $300-400 netbook PC a "luxury product"? When Toshiba Librettos were the only such product on the market in '96-'99, they were $2000--in "10+ years ago money". Now that's a "luxury product". Plus, a netbook with 512MB RAM and a 1.6GHz Atom processor (which, BTW, has hyper-threading) is easily 15x the minimum requirements for XP Home, and can run that 7-year-old OS quite admirably... So no, it's not "too slow for ultra-portables."
Windows 3.1x calc: 3.11 - 3.10 = 0.00
XFCE??? when the "average citizen" was exposed to that? (BTW, I'm not implying that XFCE is a bad option.)
When talking about the need to improve the GUI, I'm thinking on this:
http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/cups-horror.html
regards,
I've been using OpenOffice since 1.0, and I'm now on 3.0. I don't think I've used Microsoft Word in the last year, although I still have a valid copy of Word 97 around.
OpenOffice actually works now; it doesn't crash or garble documents. But its interface is painful and amateurish.
With enough effort, you can work around these problems. But this is just a word processor. It should just work. And this is version 3; they've been at this for a decade now.
This is a generic problem with open source user applications. They need real usability testing, where naive users are videoed doing various tasks while commenting on what bugs them. They seldom get it.
A decent Perl distro for Windows is free.
vim works perfectly well under Windows.
If you can't find a replacement for the others, look at cygwin to run many more *nix programs and utilities... including a real shell ("cli").
You can work around many Windows shortcomings and end up with something that works for you.
This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
I just got an Acer Aspire One with 8GB SSD and their bizarre Linpus Lite distro installed. It runs fine, but I torched it in favor of Win XP by the end of the evening, simply because XP was the only other OS that fully supported the hardware. As far as performance goes, the thing actually runs OK under XP (format as FAT32). The big drawback is that the Intel SSD is brutally slow when writing, so the trick to getting good performance is to disable unnecessary writes and caching wherever possible in the OS.
Honestly, it makes more sense to spend the extra $50 to get the Asipre One with larger battery, 160GB HD and pre-installed Windows for almost everybody. The keyboard is 89%, which is large enough for me to touch type on without issues, although the touchpad has to be one of the most craptacular pointing devices ever incorporated in a notebook - the buttons are located beside it - one on the left, one on the right. Nasty.
Did you really just suggest a netbook with more RAM than hard drive space?
(BTW, Ubuntu takes ~700 MB to install - I think the drives would probably start at 1 GB.)
Most human behaviour can be explained in terms of identity.
The big problem here is whether you'll be allowed to buy a mini notebook with 1GB and a 120-160 MB hard disk without Windows. Microsoft certainly does not want notebook vendors selling them that way, and has effective strategies to induce them not to do so.
You mean like this one?
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Acer-Aspire-One-Netbook-Sapphire/dp/B001BZ4QV2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1229224860&sr=8-1
Yep.. Microsoft have really forced these companies to toe the line. No way would any company dare to sell a Linux based netbook with 120gig of hard drive and 1 gig of ram.. Like the one that Amazon have in stock right now..
I expect they start with legal bribes, price structures effecting both the vendors larger systems and the smaller ones, and if that doesn't work the patent portfolio comes out and they discuss whether you'd like to cross-license on their terms or be sued.
They will?? Oh crap. Better hope that they don't notice Dell, Asus, Acer, IBM, HP, Lenovo and others then.
All of which means you won't see many of the Linux machines at retail. So, the customer has to self-install, which is beyond most of them.
And if they do, then Microsoft will send in the heavy mob with pickaxe handles to smash all the stock or something similarly dramatic.. Come on.. Microsoft can't put much pressure on the companies that sell most of it's products any more than Wally World can hire people to break competitor's windows.
The days of Microsoft coming in and telling a big OEM what to do are long gone. Microsoft are on the defensive if anything. They made a new OS that is too big and too slow to work on these netbooks, which were a surprise success. They had to back down and keep selling XP when they didn't want to, and they have pushed back the cut-off date at least once. Are these the acts of an all powerful company that has the whole computer industry by the balls? Don't think so.
It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his job depends on not understanding it.
The only reason why I dual boot on my MSI Wind is that MS Office is still better than OpenOffice when it comes to the image-heavy documents I manipulate/edit/create. Other than that, yes, Linux is a must on any netbook.
Error: this custom sig failed to load. Please update your user preferences. If this message still appears, please contac
Here's the US one. At $378 it's only $9 more than the Windows XP version. There doesn't seem to be a Vista version. Hey, that's a heck of a deal!
The days of Microsoft coming in and telling a big OEM what to do are long gone.
If only that were so... They are getting pushback now and then, and that's a new thing for them, but they're still the 800lb gorilla they've always been.
Help stamp out iliturcy.
Look around at prices online. If that's really the case then why is it I can get a Win XP Acer Aspire One 8.9-Inch Netbook (e.g. @ Amazon.com) with 1 GB RAM, 120 GB Hard Drive, and 3 Cell Battery for $350, but the Linpus Linux Lite one only has 512 MB RAM, 8 GB Solid State Drive instead of a HD, and a standard battery, and that's about $300.
The hardware differences alone should be more than a $50 drop in price. It's like you're getting a discount for adding Win XP to the device.
If you start with the $350 XP model and deduct the cost of the hardware differences, and deduct the cost of XP, the Linux one by comparison should probably be more like $200.
Well.. for a start, you are buying in America, so the models offered may be different. And you are compairing two different modles, so the pricing will also not be as simple as guessing a price for the storage.
The Asus Eee 901 had varying prices all over the world. Just about every permutation of hardware and price was available. It depends on the importer. And perhaps you are in a less Linux friendly market. The UK pricing for the 901 was identical for both Windows and Linux, but the Linux one had a bigger SSD.
If you go to the Amazon.co.uk website and look at the Acer Aspire One, model A150, the Linpus Linux version is £215.30, and the Windows version is £283.37. So the Linux one is £68.07 cheaper for identical hardware (about the full retail price of an OEM copy of XP home). Pricing varies according to market assumptions made by the manufacturer and the importer.
As to the difference in price with the two models you are looking at, Perhaps the SSD is more expensive than a 2.5 inch hard drive, so the retail price would also be different. Dissimilar models make it much harder to assess.
It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his job depends on not understanding it.
I'm the tech director for a small girls' school and we've decided to experiment with the Dell Mini 9s... That is, until our rep at Dell informed us that we couldn't purchase the mini's in quantity as a school with Linux installed.
Now, we want Linux because I don't want the girls filling these things up with crap software, slowing them down, killing them with viruses, etc.
In addition, there's something to be said for such a quick startup time. Teachers want their students ready to be taught as soon as possible. What we don't need is little Ashley's Facebook virus-laden netbook taking 5 minutes to get to a usable state.
The end result (after some complaining) was that they would offer the netbook to us for the same cost as the XP version - which smells pretty suspicious to me, no?
Dell is not as serious about Linux as people seem to think they are. Just because consumer models are available does not mean corporate and educational versions are as well.
"...Well, there's egg and bacon; egg sausage and bacon; egg and spam; egg bacon and spam; egg bacon sausage and spam..."
Oops. My Acer Aspire One has 1G RAM and 160GB disk. It works great with Debian, the only big issue I've found so far is that it used up all the MTRRs (memory type and range registers) and that made X slower. I was able to free one up for X.
Bruce Perens.
I have it in black, with 160 GB disk. They had the unit at Fry's, with Windows, for USD$350. No Linux. Amazon is fine, but IMO retail stores count for more.
I'm not a big fan of Limpus (pun indended). It's handicapped. Someone had to make it even dumber than Windows. It doesn't represent Linux as well as something like Ubuntu or Debian. Certainly someone used to Windows would not have much trouble with the Ubuntu menu.
Bruce Perens.
Since when is a $300-400 netbook PC a "luxury product"?
It's not - he's defining the more expensive laptops that way. He's saying people will either want a very cheap ultra-portable, or decide to splurge on a higher end laptop such as Apple offers.
Plus, a netbook with 512MB RAM and a 1.6GHz Atom processor (which, BTW, has hyper-threading) is easily 15x the minimum requirements for XP Home
Indeed, what a shame Microsoft has no interest in further sales of XP Home. And I would argue that Linux desktops on really constrained devices are probably still better.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Bought my laptop, got tired of Windows, and replaced it with Ubuntu. Do you really need to be so picky?
If you buy a netbook and the OEM Linux distro, customized by the manufacturer, doesn't run the hardware properly, please let us know.
Okay. I bought a HP2133 (model FU337EA#AK8) as a Christmas present for my sister. It came with Novell SLED 10. The out-of-the-box-installation was completely unusable. Besides choosing a distro that's a real PITA to get forum support about (and in cases like these, it's pretty much the only support you'll get), the hardware they included had linux support ranging from poor to horrible.
Here's a list of the worst problems:
-Graphics drivers. The laptop uses a VIA graphics card, and out of the box, it only runs in an awful looking 640x480-stretched-to-fit-the-screen-VESA-mode. There are some pre-compiled 3D VIA binaries for a few kernels of some distros. There's also some source code for 2D drivers that I couldn't get to compile. (Fortunately some kind soul did get them to compile, and was kind enough to make the binaries publicly available.) Of course getting it working it wasn't that easy. You see HP offers 2 different screen sizes on this laptop, and this model naturally carried the less common one. It took me three days and several forum posts to find the obscure lines to edit in xorg.conf (And I do mean obscure, not just tweaking the resolution or modlines.) Option "PanelID" "17" in combination with a few other tweaks, I believe was the key to success.
-Audio drivers. Well, they'll work out of the box it would seem, as long as you don't want to use the headphone jacks or a microphone. HP appears to be using a not-quite-supported ADI SoundMax AD1984A soundcard. If you want to use, say Skype, you need to download the latest nightly ALSA build and compile that. Then you'll get the mic and jacks working as well. The only problem remaining is that every once in a while artsd thinks that hogging all the CPU cycles is a really good idea, and the ordinary Skype package won't work. You'll want the one labelled static-oss.
-Wireless. So far I believe the community has identified 5 different WLAN-cards used in these laptops. All from Broadcom. If you follow the instructions in the wikis really, really carefully, you'll probably have it working in an hour or two. :-P
So to sum it up: The SLED system that came with the netbook was an unusable mess. I switched to Kubuntu that I somehow managed to get working through a lot of effort, patience, and community support. The HP netbooks look very nice, and have better keyboards that most comparable systems, but given the level of half-assedness to the default install it's hard to recommend them to anyone. (The other alternative is Vista which is much more expensive, and even harder to recommend.) It would seem that HP just assumes that people buying these things are just going to pirate XP anyway, so why bother with quality control?
Oh, and I've got an Asus EEE myself. No problems whatsoever, with that one. Didn't quite like the default install, so I installed Mandriva instead. Still no problems.
At that point, you can test most (if not all) of the peripherals to see if they work nicely.
Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
People who think that netbooks are some special kind of device don't get it. Netbooks succeed where devices like the N810 fail because they *are* real notebooks.
I have an EEE 900HA, which I upgraded to a 100GB 7200 RPM Hitachi HDD (taken from my ThinkPad after I upgraded it to 250GB Seagate) and 2GB of memory. I run Ubuntu 8.10 and Vista on it.
It's a full laptop. It's not a limited, special-purpose device.
I can load Eclipse on it. Or VS2008. Or Word. Or Firefox. Or iTunes.
People who say, "Why not just buy a small laptop" don't get it. I did buy a small laptop. It just happens to be a cheap, low-power, small laptop.
I have been using the 'westlake' alias here and there for some ten years now - and I don't do sock puppets.
Linux needs services like CNR to gain even the slightest toe-hold in the mass consumer market.
I have been downloading Windows software from reputable sites like Download.com since my dial-up years with AOL. Commander Keen. Wolfenstein 3-D. mIRC. Winamp.
There have been no problems worth mentioning.
Searching through twenty-five thousand apps without detailed descriptions, screen shots, editorial and end user reviews is my personal idea of hell - or Sourceforge.
How about Android, Chrome and Google apps as basis for building a Netbook.
A Windows (and Linux) mobile killer?
The big problem here is whether you'll be allowed to buy
a mini notebook with 1GB and a 120-160 MB hard disk without Windows.
You're right, but Asus put a pretty big thin end of the wedge in the door with the Eee (not a typo, just a sily name) range of tiny PCs with Linux.
Of course, the higher-end ones then became available with windows...
For those who don't live in developed countries, and those who have been laid off, 300$ is a lot of money.
I can throw myself at the ground, and miss.
Do any netbooks have a CD drive? I suppose you may be able to boot from a USB drive.
Ironically, Express Gate needs a working Windows XP or Vista installation on the same machine, otherwise it can't run and can't be installed.
There are rumors that Microsoft simply does not want any quickly booting GNU/Linux installations anywhere, and they will put the thumbscrews to the right people to get that.
And just to add something to another part of this thread: None of the Linux-based ASUS 1000H models are available in Switzerland, for example. I can't get them even though I'm a reseller and stock ASUS products. Behind the scenes negotiations can accomplish a lot in this market :(
Even when people email me their work, I still print it out and mark it up. A few reasons:
1) The markup tools in Word, etc., are much more suited to what they're designed for: collaboration. I use them all the time when I'm working with colleagues on joint research papers. But for paper comments, they are slow and kludgy.
2) On paper, I can do things like circle a phrase and draw an angry red arrow back to where it should actually be. I can do a lot more than just add margin notes, and I can communicate state of mind better. A typed "Huh?" on a comment does not communicate my total inability to work out what the student is trying to say the way a big, red one with a giant question mark and an underline or two does.
3) Turning things in electronically is great for the student, not for the teacher. See, for this to work, I have to have all my students in my address book. This is a lot harder than you'd imagine, especially with people who have the same names, people who don't use their university mail, etc. When it's paper, I look at it, comment it, rate it, put the grade in my computer, and move on. It gets back to you the next class, when I'm going to see you anyway. Mailing them back to each person is akin to me having to put printed copies in a student's pigeon hole. It's an extra clerical task that takes time from doing more important things and is failure-prone (and here in Japan, sending the wrong paper to the wrong student can get you sued/fired--privacy law).
4) There's been a lot of research on corrective feedback for writing. Guess what? It's useless. You give it, some students get better, some don't. You don't, same thing. Now, as a student, no one wants to just turn in something that took them hours and hours and get nothing back, and, as a teacher, I don't want people to think I'm not even reading them, because, truthfully, I read every word, all the time (I like to see what people have to say), so we comment them, knowing full well that people either won't read them or will read them but not take them to heart. So, what I'm saying is that there's no reason for these comments to live on forever on our hard drives. Paper will get read and tossed. That's the appropriate life cycle for that exchange.
5) Finally, you can't search a paper to speed up grading. If there's fluff in there, I'm going to nail your ass. Every sentence is important, and if it's not, I need to read it anyway to tell you that it's not. No one wants to get a grade on a paper based on a couple sentences.
Basically, as a student, turning things in electronically is great. As a teacher, in my personal opinion and experience, not so much.
For one thing, Windows is good enough for ultra-portables - XP, that is. There were a lot of UMPCs with XP pre-installed (such as the one I own, Raon Everun). This isn't going anywhere yet. And then there's XP Embedded, which allows to cut out a lot of fat from the base XP OS.
Vista isn't there yet, that's for sure. However, we'll have to see what they will come up with in Win7. As I understand, the initial plans for Win7 included an OS for the Embedded line...
Then, of course, there's Windows CE. Its main problem is that it doesn't really have any advantage over Linux in terms of supporting exsiting software, but if it comes to that, I'm sure MS could port, say, Office to it in a short time if needed.
Do you know who else uses CUPS?
That's right!
Apple.
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
Vim is available for Windows, both as a console mode application and native Win32 GUI. Quite a few programmers I know actually use it as their primary editor.
Perl is absolutely there. Don't bother with ActiveState, go for Strawberry Perl for maximum portability.
Regarding CLI in general, I'd suggest looking into PowerShell. MS is investing pretty heavily into it and seem determined to move all Windows admins to it (oh, those poor MCSEs!). It is in general pretty nicely done, and logically extends and generalizes the original concept of the Unix shell in a way that makes more sense for some use cases (raw byte streams are not always the best way of passing data around).
If you're just feeling nostalgic for bash and zsh, you have several options. The GNU-Win32 project provides native (MinGW-based) ports for a lot of Unix utilities, including bash. Cygwin is a popular alternative that provides more faithful emulation of Unix environment on top of Win32 - including fork(), symlinks, and so on. Finally, there's Microsoft SUA ("Subsystem for Unix Applications"), which is a WinNT POSIX-compatible subsystem. Note that, unlike Cygwin, it's not build on top of Win32 - it's another subsystem, working in parallel to Win32, directly on top of the NT kernel. It has quite a few Unix utilities ported to it, including bash and Perl. This one actually comes for free in Win2008, and also Vista Enterprise and Ultimate editions.
Why do so many people like to suffer and struggle with poorly written software when there are solutions that actually work as advertised? But sure, if you want to go CHEAP, Ubuntu is a good choice.
Beauty is in the beholder of the eye.
I'm writing this on an MSI Wind netbook running Windows XP. It has an 80Gb Hard drive, 1Gb of memory and a 1.6Ghz processor. When XP was released that would have been a top-of-the-range computer. For a long time I ran XP on a much lower-specced computer and it ran fine.
Yep, you are right. It's all about the apps. And that's why I only use Macs.
Beauty is in the beholder of the eye.
Get rid of sub pixel rendering and pick a nicer font.
One of the weaknesses of Linux still. The fonts are terrible and require processing which slow everything down.
Deleted
Let's get one thing clear: I am NOT Balmer trying astroturf.
No, you are some other guy astroturfing for him, right?
Don't try to tell me that Linux is faster. It's not. Don't try to tell me that Linux can do everything that Windows can do. It can't.
I don't believe you. Now what? Can you present actual arguments without googling for "linux" "unsupported" and posting some crap about CMYK in GIMP? Or is it the best that Microsofties could come up with?
I won't tell you that Windows is just as secure, or that Windows can do everything Linux can do, as they are also lies.
No. Actually EVERYTHING you have said is a lie. What you are trying to hide by pretending to be "fair and balanced".
What I will tell you is that the software I needed is there.
What I will tell you is that the hardware support I needed is there.
Hardware? Really? You are talking about hardware support ON A NETBOOK THAT WAS SPECIFICALLY MADE TO BE COMPATIBLE WITH LINUX???!!
What the fuck did you smoke before writing that?
Perhaps sometime down the road when the various flavors of Linux
There are no "various flavors of Linux". All distributions include and support the same software, however never actually using Linux you wouldn't know that.
support Pure-Edge
grants.gov provides a Citrix ICA server to access that shitty software from non-Windows systems (no one else actually uses it). Wine supports it better than Vista (see thread). Did you notice that it doesn't run on your sparkling new Vista box? That's right, you didn't because you never tried.
and CAC readers
They are supported. Of course, you didn't know that, you just assumed that a random obscure piece of hardware used by US government is unlikely to be supported. Guess what, you were wrong, and now everyone can see how little you know about something you so passionately denounce.
, I will be able to return. Otherwise you'll just have to wait at least three more years before I get out.
Your attempts to find Linux deficiencies on Google happened to be a total failure, so I don't think, you are going to "return" anywhere. Most likely you never used Linux in the first place.
What I will tell you is that the [*]ubuntites are a confusing squirming mass of trustafarians who eat their own, and find spinning cubes to be of more importance than achieving real productivity in a high pressure work environment.
What I will tell you is that the software I needed is there.
What I will tell you is that the hardware support I needed is there.
What I will tell you is that the [*]ubuntites are a confusing squirming mass of trustafarians who eat their own, and find spinning cubes to be of more importance than achieving real productivity in a high pressure work environment.
And here we can see your true face. You hate us. You are trying to find some way to demonstrate your supposed superiority, a way to convince (yourself or others) that your decision to always use Microsoft software is somehow justified, and your opponents are somehow deficient.
The problem is, we don't care what you think about us. You aren't convincing anyone -- us, linux users, or your supposed audience, potential netbook users. You sound like a Microsoft marketdroid, and you may or may not actually be one, however one thing is clear -- you are too stupid for us to care.
Hey look, a used car salesman got hired as a Microsoft astroturfer. Let's listen to him because he said, he can use perl.
Go, fuck yourself. (posted from OLPC XO running Ubuntu)
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
Usage of affect vs. effect.
(Not to mention the omission of an apostrophe and misplacement of the definite article in the second half of the coordination conjunction.)
The "proprietary ways" bit is true with respect to the original Microsoft submission, but not to the reworked document which was eventually standardized as ISO Open XML. For one thing, they've removed all the MS-specific bits into a separate document, and explicitly stated that everything listed in there is "legacy bits to be used only for applications that require interoperability with older versions of Microsoft Office" (i.e., no compliant processor is allowed to generate documents with them, only to read them; presumably, this will apply to the next Office 2007 SP which will introduce ISO Open XML compliance).
Well, this is greate.
Now, we will see tons of open source implementations of OOXML, which all will be exactly following the ISO standart, and none of which will be able to open the huge quantity of older documents with the legacy bits in that are still around.
Net result ? Corporate drone tries to open his document in OOo, OOo can't render it correctly. MSO was able to render it. Corporate drone concludes : "This Open source stuff is crap".
Well done, Microsoft, well done.
Compare this situation, with OOo :
SXW (StarOffice XML Writer) - was the first version of XML format used by StarOffice & OOo.
After going through standarisation the resulting ISO format is ODT (OpenDocument Text).
The naming of the standard is clearly different, the extensions are too. Everything is made in a way which clearly states that one was an internel XML format, the other is the ISO standard.
Nobody expects an early SXW file to be usable in - say - AbiWord's or KWord's ODT importer.
(Whereas, I still encounter people that don't even notice the difference between DOC and DOCX)
I can almost hear a "get-the-fact" style starturf/fanboi campaign building up against OOXML support in free software.
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
Math? I'd be happy if OOo could simply make a bulleted list or do numbering in a sane way. Still, I think TFA's point about compatibility, for the most part, is probably right. We all know that MS Office has major issues with different versions of its own documents.
In order to make money they have to charge something for their software. Linux will always be cheaper than a Windows machine.
Not necessarily - a company has to build up a test and support infrastructure for Linux; so there are very real costs associated with offering Linux. Unless there is sufficient demands for Linux machines, the cost per machine for Linux can be higher than for Windows. As a result; Linux machines either have a smaller margin, making them unattractive for companies; or cost more, making them unattractive for buyers.
While Linux can break MS' hold in low cost machines; it's not as easy at it seems and there are real challenges in getting enough machine sou there with Linux to create a viable, self sustaining consumer base that makes Linux machines economically attractive to build.
Economics is a force more powerful than any individual company. Microsoft is not above this.
True, but right now economics of scale and being the standard are high barriers for new entrants to overcome. It can be done; but it will not be easy nor is it impossible for MS to adapt and create a profitable business model for netbooks that involves there software and gives companies and consumers what they want from a netbook.
I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
When the XFCE became again "a classic window manager with a few apps"? It is still counted as desktop environment, what even use more RAM than GNOME!
LXDE is your answer if you ask what is fast, small memoryprint and not-feature rich desktop environment, unless you want to switch to window manager only when you cant use this either...
No, but you can use an external USB one.
That's a definite "yes", not a "maybe". You just use something like unetbootin to copy the live CD to a USB stick, then boot from that. It's all GUI-driven, so it's pretty straightforward.
while that is a good resource, i always recommend people check out linux on laptops first, and if they can't find their laptop model and/or linux flavor, to then move onto another list like the ubuntu wiki.
When you recognize love in another and realize how precious it is, everything else seems so insignificant.
hahahaha
I'll start off by saying I've never used XFCE. But... looking at Desktop benchmarks it appears that XFCE acts a lot like a pure window manager (WMaker is the comparison). That is much lower footprint until you start treating it like a full GUI. With only 500 megs of ram losing 80-100 on pure overhead....
Wikipedia also has a good comparison. They put XFCE & ROX in a kind of 1/2 GUI 1/2 Window manager category.
I should say looking at those numbers (from 2006) I was shocked how bad Gnome did on minimal configurations. So I"m not seeing where you are getting the "more memory than Gnome" unless you mean when loaded up to the gills which is of course the point.
Yeah, I expect HP will roll right over and do whatever Microsoft demands in the netbook marketplace, they've always done that right, and never ever been disappointed by the outcome.
(well, I don't think they'll be disappointed when the compensatory award comes from the "vista ready" court case)
PS. This article suggests they nuck the trend with offering more powerful Windows netbook versions:
But, in an interesting reversal of usual practice, purchasers of the Mini MIE get 2GB of RAM, rather than the 512MB and 1GB configurations featured on Windows XP versions of the Mini 1000.
Damn, just checked and though they offer Ubuntu netbooks (which looked very nice in Currys),the Mini 1000 is not yet available with HP Linux :(
You must not work at a big corporation... most of the time the new guy just starts digging in and ignores all the prior person's work (as it's somehow suspect).
You may boot Linux from USB CD-ROM or you can make a bootable USB stick. Netbooks should boot from USB drives. :-)
Or you may just buy a netbook with Linux preinstalled
The version of Linpus linux used on the Acer are XFCE based. The article and the reviews all talk about what a great interface Acer has..... People love the speed and lightweight nature AFAIKT. Quite a suprise.
BTW I read your rant. That interface obviously assumes you know networking, why did you think it was aimed at Aunt Tillie? The very first question is about configuring queues and the second is about virtual network packet formats. That doesn't sound like an end user interface to me.
As an aside, I've never owned a JetDirect device but I use it all the time as a very clean network printing protocol. So it might have been worth looking up. Don't assume you meant the first two. In fact in your case I would have configured your box to treat the other box as JetDirect, used the postscript (I believe) on the 6MP and cut the Cups out of the middle. Why introduce complexity?
Calling it "a wash," was, I think, far too charitable. Walmart's XP netboooks - "available in stores' - all ship with a 9" screen, an Atom CPU, 1 GB RAM and a 160 GB HDD.
Walmart is pounding the Linux netbook into the sand at a price point the Geek still believes Windows cannot reach even when the evidence is right in front of him.
Walmart has never been able to do more than firmly anchor Linux's reputation as a bottom feeder -
and "anchor" is surely the right word here.
The "high end" at Walmart is the $1600-2000 "desktop replacement."
The 64 Bit Vista Premium media PC with HDTV, Blu-Ray and a 26" TouchSmart display. Entry level for 64 Bit Vista at Walmart is $800.
32 Bit Vista Premium starts at $450-$500. You'll have plenty of raw horsepower, RAM amd storage at anything above entry level - and you won't find anything in OEM Linux that is competitive even there.
Bought my laptop, got tired of Windows, and replaced it with Ubuntu. Do you really need to be so picky?
Yes. I got tired of Windows on my desktop PC, but when I tried to replace it with a Linux-based system, I found that the video card was unsupported in any mode but slow-ass VESA.
Or you may just buy a netbook with Linux preinstalled :-)
As I wrote above: "the local stores don't sell any Linux laptop other than an ASUS Eee PC".
The line between DTP and WP has grown blurry over the years as applications have evolved. Truth is that many people do use, and will continue to use, WP for everything. It is important functionality for a modern WP, and a valid point when comparing two WPs.
But yeah, at some point you realize you are not using the right tool for the job. Maybe give Scribus a try instead of dual-booting to use another WP...
I had something similar to that occur when I first started using Linux. Mind you, this was in 1999 on what was a decent desktop pc. The problem was the modem, it was one of those damned soft modems that required special drivers to run. I spent a long time trying to get it to work and waiting for open source drivers to be developed. Eventually I gave up trying to get internet to work, however it was a pain in the butt using Linux without net access. That problem was fixed when I built my next computer and made sure not to buy components that I knew would work in both windows and Linux.
Similarly, next time you buy a computer, make sure you buy one without odd hardware. Get one with a good popular chip set and video card. As long as you use what a majority of people use, say sticking to Intel Wireless/USB chipsets with Nvidia/ATI video cards, then you won't have any problems.
I use Remote Desktop Connection in windows to connect to a windows remote Desktop where I do all of my work. I only surf the internet through my regular desktop. Does Linux have software that allows me to connect to a remote server? Also are many if any of these net books compatible with my cellphone providers wireless cards? If these net books would be perfect for my Reps to use in the field.
Didn't Microsoft software start out as the cheaper alternative to proprietary Unix?
The problem is, we don't care what you think about us.
Yes, that is a problem.
"People who say they don't care what people think are usually desperate to have people think they don't care what people think."
-George Carlin
What I will tell you is that the [*]ubuntites are a confusing squirming mass of trustafarians who eat their own, and find spinning cubes to be of more importance than achieving real productivity in a high pressure work environment.
And here we can see your true face. You hate us. You are trying to find some way to demonstrate your supposed superiority, a way to convince (yourself or others) that your decision to always use Microsoft software is somehow justified, and your opponents are somehow deficient.
The problem is, we don't care what you think about us. You aren't convincing anyone -- us, linux users, or your supposed audience, potential netbook users. You sound like a Microsoft marketdroid, and you may or may not actually be one, however one thing is clear -- you are too stupid for us to care.
And remarkably, you truly lack the self-awareness to see what a perversion of your own cause that you have become. Was it necessary to drop the F-bomb twice in your post? Do you still kiss your mother with that mouth? What is it that makes Ubuntu zealots so hateful?
Seriously... If you are frustrated I can understand, but you publicly resorted to a vicious personal attack. Your response was neither helpful nor professional. If I were just a casual bystander reading your post, I certainly would not want to be associated with you or the causes you support. You just came across far too mean spirited and heavy handed. I'd hate to think that you were the status quo behind the Linux community, and you are not at all like I've experienced with the wonderfully helpful Mandriva community.
BTW: What have you got against using the Sugar OS on the OLPC XO? After all, they didn't design it for use with Ubuntu.
Linux Mint, which is Ubuntu-based with additional codecs, custom tools, and various other changes, removed it back in 2007.
NOTE: the 'rant' above is work of Eric S. Raymond.
Well, I don't like to say it, but the Windows printing wizards let you print remotely without being a network expert (with a little training Aunt Tillie may be in its way.) I admit that for at least two years didn't tried again to configure something with CUPS (and never want to try again:); and that's because my Ubuntu boxes provided a clearer interface to resolve the requirements of most people, and mines are not really complex. BTW, some people argues that distros have the duty of hiding the weirdness of the real Linux utilities... I think that's just duplication of effort (or multiplication, considering the number of distros.)
Doing trivial things manually with CUPS (and related drivers not necessarily developed by the CUPS team) was always a PITA (at least for me), despite (or because the need of?) nice fat manuals, and the annoying logic commented by ESR.
only if you consider the stand-alone eight-bit micro on your desktop an alternative to the VT100 terminal.
I'm not so sure. The manufacturers and Microsoft have their teeth at each other's throats. Apart from price changes, they have very little practical leverage. And Microsoft being watched so closely by various monopoly abuse agencies doesn't help their position any.
For just about every part of a computer, manufacturers have a choice of suppliers. If Nvidia start getting above themselves, they go to ATI. Intel start getting stroppy, AMD can take up the slack. Microsoft get too demanding? they can use what exactly..(referring to mass market sales, not specialist markets)
I'm surprised the big names are not more enthusiastic about helping out a second choice for the purely selfish reasons of keeping what is essentially another vendor in line. Perhaps they are more involved behind the scenes than we think.
It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his job depends on not understanding it.
but we must finish R1/alpha first :D
In the UK all major retailers are offering Linux netbooks, on their shops, side by side with laptops running MS fare.
The horse bolt the gate already, trying to close that gate now, specially with those monopolistic, bully tactics is not going to work, everybody is aware that MS got away with murder with a slap in the wrist last time, there are many people out there ready to spill the beans if MS even thinks about misbehaving, specially "business partners" that get stabbed in the back by this immoral company.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
To have the privilege to pay hundreds of dollars for software that requires on top of it antivirus, firewall, a basic database, and please add the word processor and the spreadsheet, neither of which is free in Windows cloud coo-coo land, and also imaging software.
Do you think that the constant nagging for you to install whatever they want to install in your computer, is an advantage?
Is it an advantage to be forced to contribute to the profits of a company that is actually convicted of acting illegally in both the US and EU? (just for starters).
Look pal, if you enjoy being mistreated, well, to each one his own, I have nothing against masochists, but I don't want to partake on such unorthodox pleasures.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
I can have the real thing for free!
I have been doing that for the last 8 years.
I think geeks that are still using Windows only do so for one of these reasons: technical ignorance, laziness or duress.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
such as an old PalmPilot or Psion, but with a better screen and a proper keyboard.
Forgive me but PSION devices *had* proper keyboards, unlike many others for the time (Jornada anyone ? :p).
And btw, what's with this "netbook" buzz ? "netbook" is a trademark from PSION, or at least was. And it was a machine very much alike those we are discussing here, just 8 years ago: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NetBook
Then I'm surprised. OK I'll drop the Socratic method....
CUPS was not designed as a simple end user printer configuration system. It was designed to unify: spooling, filtering and networking into a single configuration. Prior to CUPS there was no way for example to detect what data types a remote printer would accept so there was no way to properly filter for remote printers automatically.
Similarly given a local machine running network protocols A,B and C and a server running D,E,F and a printer running G and H it was very complicated to figure out the right sorts of data routes.
In other words CUPS was designed for network administrators who didn't need a full featured print solution but needed something more complex that LPD (see http://lpd.brooksnet.com/index.html for a good discussion of LPD). The assumption was they did in fact understand to make life easier for people with lots of printers to get the right kind of data to their printers (which is what Apple uses it for) using network protocols the printer will accept.
The problem with the rant is that it assumes Aunt Tillie should be using CUPS. And yes CUPS is a PITA. But try configuring something like a university department network with 200 workstations and 15 printers bought over a period of say 10 years with different permissions running different networking software needing different filters and you'll love CUPS.
Last I heard, OpenOffice.org was a free download for Windows.
MS Office Home and Student is $70 at Amazon.com.
Three seat license. $50 if purchased with a qualifying laptop. If you have student ID and a collegiate e-mail address, Office Ultimate is $70 - direct from Microsoft. If you employer has a volume licensing plan, MS Office can be yours for the S&H costs of the media.
Walmart has yet to bundle a printer with a Linux PC - or link to a printer that has a Linux driver. If ink and paper are within your budget, then MS Office is within your budget.
First let me state I'm not particularly happy with Windows all the time. I have my workspace at home with 2 XP desktops, a Mac desktop, and until recently an XP laptop. The laptop finally gave up the ghost and I went down to Wal-Mart and bought an Acer Aspire One for $349. It has 1g ram, 160g HDD, and runs at 1.6gHz on an Intel Atom, and has Windows XP Home on it. I've seen the equivalent Acer with Linux on it. It's a scaled-down Linux that amounts to a menu of a few favorite applications. Not for me. So I clobbered the XP on the Acer and put UBUNTU's Intrepid Ibex distro on it. Now, I love the Intrepid gnome interface. But after 2 weeks of futzing around with it I have decided that Intrepid isn't ready for this particular machine. 1. It took me 6 hours of searching to find out how to activate the wi-fi, and then there were still problems. a. It receives and sends ok but doesn't light up the wifi LED's on the front, or respond to the on-off switch. b. You can attach to a wi-fi signal only if it's open, without any security like WEP. I had to open up my wi-fi router to get it to attach. Not happy with that. 2. Couldn't get it to recognize the built-in camera. 3. Couldn't get the sound module to recognize either the built-in or external mic. Sadly, I took Intrepid Ibex off, partitioned my drive back to 80/80 and put XP Pro on it. All the drivers for it were at Acer's site, and the box runs great now. BUT I still have an 80 gig partition JUST WAITING for Jubilant Jackal (or whatever UBUNTU is going to call their next distro)!
I'd rather have a free bottle in front of me than a prefrontal lobotomy.
Yes, that is a problem.
"People who say they don't care what people think are usually desperate to have people think they don't care what people think."
-George Carlin
George Carlin had talent. You, on the other hand, are just a pompous idiot.
And remarkably, you truly lack the self-awareness to see what a perversion of your own cause that you have become. Was it necessary to drop the F-bomb twice in your post? Do you still kiss your mother with that mouth? What is it that makes Ubuntu zealots so hateful?
Didn't you get a memo? It's OK to hate dumbasses. Really.
Seriously... If you are frustrated I can understand, but you publicly resorted to a vicious personal attack.
That's because you are Microsoft shill, idiot or both.
Your response was neither helpful nor professional.
As opposed to you, I have a job that does not involve trolling message boards, so I don't have to be "professional" while talking to you.
If I were just a casual bystander reading your post, I certainly would not want to be associated with you or the causes you support. You just came across far too mean spirited and heavy handed.
Oh, again this "list of demands Linux has to meet so we will take it seriously". Guess what? No one cares what do you think about me, other Linux users or Linux itself. No one cares how I talk to you. You spew bullshit, so you are treated like a bullshit-spewing idiot.
I'd hate to think that you were the status quo behind the Linux community, and you are not at all like I've experienced with the wonderfully helpful Mandriva community.
I can assure you, we all hate Microsoft marketdroids and fanboys.
BTW: What have you got against using the Sugar OS on the OLPC XO?
Nothing. But I prefer Ubuntu, so I have adapted Ubuntu for XO.
After all, they didn't design it for use with Ubuntu.
Do you really think, it's possible to design hardware specifically for a particular Linux distribution and not the rest of them? Unless, of course, it's specifically crippled with DRM?
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
I love Ubuntu, have used it for a while. One of the main reasons for my getting a NetBook, however is to be able to read EBooks on it. Being about the same price as a good Windows Mobile PDA, but with more versatility and a much larger screen, I'd like to use them to read the books, but can't find satisfactory software to use. Suggestions?
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
I think you must be right, as otherwise there would surely be a huge number of people returning these things asking for refunds if they're actually unusable as sold?
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
Since they existed.
So what? Sure, netbooks are cheaper luxury products now than similar size, useful PCs were in the past. They are still luxury products.
I've never had many problems with my old Toshiba laptop since I ditched XP on it and put Kubuntu on it; video, wireless, and sound all worked without problems under 7.10; suspend/resume was iffy, but then it booted fast enough that I didn't mind shutdown/startup instead of suspend/resume. Under 8.04, it Just Works. Better than Windows did on the same machine, in fact.
Not possible here, since you have to select either an English or French installation when you first boot up, and it then installs the "right" version, and prompts you to make your backup DVDs.
It shouldn't be possible in the US either, since you have to accept the license agreement in order to make your backup install media.
That'll teach them not to ship proper installation media!