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Palm Pulls the Plug On Palm OS
BobB-nw writes to tell us that Palm has decided to kill their PalmOS operating system and is instead betting their future on a still mostly unknown Palm webOS. Very little is known about the new Palm webOS, but it will supposedly support HTML5 and enable a local data store so that applications can be used both online and off. All of this is rolled into a Linux framework with a message bus based on JSON. Will be interesting to see where they take it.
Worst. API. Ever. EVAR!
Bad enough that they renamed standard library functions. They also changed the order of arguments to those functions.
Windows PocketPC, meanwhile, was programmable using the same languages and toolchain as regular Windows.
Best Slashdot Co
I have used palm OS for almost ten years.
Rest in Peace my friend, you will be missed.
They *Finally* get some buzz with the forthcoming Palm Pre....and they announce they are killing the OS it uses. How to make early adopters think twice before buying one.
Great move...not
Whether or not the OS kill is a good thing is a different story, but it certainly cramps the buzz of the one thing they've got going for them.
People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people
Is this going to be a brand-new start? Didn't they buy Be a few years ago to build their new OS versions around BeOS?
I may be wrong but I thought you only use JSON when you're passing messages between trusted sources.
Is that perception incorrect?
Are these guys still making PDAs and phones?
If they're a hardware vendor, why not just use Android?
Wrapping webkit and giving javascript APIs to talk to the hardware isn't a bad idea and it's working for PhoneGap. I just don't know why they have to re-invent the wheel.
Do they intend on making money licensing their WebOS to other hardware manufacturers?
"If they have both, tell them we use Linux. And if they have that, tell them the computers are down." -Dave Chapelle
Is it just me, or has Palm fallen flat on its face every time they have something that could be big (except when they debuted the palm pilot)?
They used to have so much caché, but every time I hear what sounds like good news it just vanishes.
Why do people keep supporting this company if they can't get their act together? Do they offer a magical pony with every purchase that no one is telling me about?
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Palm doesn't own PalmOS anymore. They can choose not to use it on their devices, but that doesn't mean the operating system can't continue to develop and be sold to others (in the form of GVM or whatever).
Mainframe/UNIX Bit Twiddler and long time Windows/Linux Hobbyist.
The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then.
They had a virtual monopoly on portable devices.
Not they're barely known.
How the mighty have fallen.
Note that the monopoly was killed by the free market, and not be government interference. The market may be slower, but it eventually breaks-up monopolies through natural forces.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
So does this mean that nobody will be supporting my Handspring Visor anymore? I tried hot synching it to Vista the other day, but it was not recognized. With PalmOS being discontinued, I guess there will not be any support in Windows-7 either. Synching support in Linux is a bit hit or miss. When it does work often wind up getting duplicate entries in evolution.
When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
They had their chance when they bought all of the rights to BeOS. They could have taken the kernel and a few components and built a new OS on top of that, back before Blackberry and Apple were huge players in this market. Now, this comes along as a me-too product that will probably have very poor performance (a web-based approach on hardware too slow to run something like a V8 or Gecko-style JS engine?!)
Worst of all for Palm, they could have released most of the code to BeOS under the GPL, let others develop it, and that would have had the effect of crushing a lot of their competition from Microsoft.
I've used Palm products for over ten years.
I bought a Palm TX, and the on/off button stopped working. Palm's response? "You'll just have to buy a new one." I did.
Six months later (almost to the day) the on/off button stopped working.
I'm NOT buying another. I'll buy a Windows POS before I'll buy another Palm POS.
In case you hadn't heard, the new Palm WebOs is creating quite a buzz that Palm may finally be back...
I started with WinCE (on a Casiopia) and stayed through 2 revisions despite the crashes, slowness, and rapid battery drain. I switched to a Palm III (clone actually - TRG Pro) and have had 3 Palm devices since then (currently a Centro). I prefer Palm's calendar and contact database to the alternatives. My Palm currently has about nine thousand contacts in the database. Am I going to be able to use the WebOS when there's no wireless data connectivity? I don't think so. Can Palm ensure the security of my data while using WebOS? I don't think so. What happened to the rumored port of PalmOS to Linux? I've been waiting for that for 3 years now. Since they are abandoning the platform, is it for sale? Are they going to open source it? I would not like to see it die.
webOS...a very nicely chosen name, i bet it'll sell a lot in spanish speaking countries.
You're half there.
Access owned PalmOS, and in fact PalmOS was killed in late 2005 when Access ceased development and moved to the Linux-based ALP (Access Linux Platform).
This announcement is actually just Palm admitting that they can't afford to release any more hardware that uses an OS that's been dead for nearly 4 years.
GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
But does it run Linux?
First off, Palm don't own PalmOS. It's owned by Access, who bought PalmSource.
Secondly, PalmOS's plug was pulled back in 2005, when Access announced no further development work would be done on it.
Thirdly, Palm didn't *decide* to pull the plug; their license from Access to ship new PalmOS devices expired, so they have no choice.
I wrote about all this back in 2005 when the news went around. I guess everyone's forgotten.
GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
I am using a Zodiac 2 now, and have a TX in storage if the Zod dies, but I am wondering what options exist for moving/using my data on other platforms?
I know Access has sold their ALP platform to a couple companies, it's on at least one digital camera, too. They also put out a PalmOS compatible layer for the Nokia internet tablets.
I think there is a company that emulates the basic built-in apps on WinCE and iPhone/iPod Touch. Haven't heard great things about that.
Are there other options out there?
All opinions expressed herein are my own, and not those of my employers, who are appalled.
My company sells Palms to use as Point of Sale Devices for delivery drivers. We have software tailored to the Palm and receipt printers as well.
Now that Palm is going to end, we will need to find another platform to run our software on. I don't see are customers using a smartphone.
It is interesting how Apple store employees use Symbol handhelds, which run Palm OS, instead of the iPhone. Even for Apple, the iPhone is not a replacement for Palm.
IF they'd kept the original PalmOS model and followed it to cheaper devices you'd be seeing Palms instead of Ti graphing calculators as the standard handheld for schoolkids by now... which would have translated into massive sales as the kids grew up. But Palm decided they HAD to go head to head against the Pocket PC, and threw away most of the advantages of the small, tight, lightweight Palm OS while keeping most of its disadvantages with PalmOS 5.
As a couple of others at this thread level, I'm a devout Palm user. Actually, I've just bought a Treo 680 (competently refurbished of course) -- "just" as in "it it's still in the mail".
I've been using Palm PDAs for most of a decade, starting with a Palm III. My two beloved T3's are currently on their last legs; these things are nothing short of fantastic, keeping my mind and life functioning, but no matter how one cares for them they can only be expected to last for so long (which is why I'm upgrading to a Treo).
On a related note, my brother has been using Psion Series5's for 13 years -- and he still thinks they're the best things out there, although he recently threw in the towel and bought an iPhone.
It's such a shame that consumer electronics seems to be so ephemeral, it always has been. It means that the junk piles up on the landfill quickly, and it also means that the quality stuff is simply out of support long before the hardware is worn out.
I say "seems to be", because few people realise --truly, consciously-- that one's gear does not need to change if one's needs don't. Granted, for most (young) people it's at least as much about the fashion statement as the functionality, and so they buy into the ephemerality. Meanwhile, the stalwarts who cherish their devices for their usefulness quickly appear to be dinosaurs, as not keeping with the times.
I know that this Mac-like OS transition was necessary for Palm in order to be truly free to innovate, and I wish them luck, if for nothing else the market players need diversity to keep each other on their toes. I'm sure they're nervous about this gamble of leaving behind literally tens of thousands of 3rd-party applications; I know we are still many, many users out there who are -- even if we're being drowned out by others who don't feel the same.
What am I trying to say? I wish Palm luck with their new OS and device, and I hope they get to survive on that account. But I also hope that the PalmOS community survives, for one does not rule out the other, and the old tools will not suddenly, lose their usefulness.
"Good news, everyone!"
I'll wait until Netcraft confirms the death of PalmOS.
Or did they confirm it 5 years ago already?
Is that it took them this long to do it. Palm has been selling devices running windows for how many years now? I was surprised when I recently saw a (new) Palm device for sale that was actually running Palm OS.
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
This then is a prime example of superior software getting extinct because of its proprietary nature. I can see a nice analogy with evolution here... to survive in the long term, software must make sure it gets lots and lots of copies of itself, some of which slightly different to change with the times. If any party can decide that a bit of software can't be copied or changed anymore it will go extinct.
P.S. Of course biological evolution isn't directed, but that was not the point.
Translation: the eval is insecure.
Or, alternatively, process the data in such a way that you do not need to trust the source of the data. This means parsing and validating the data to ensure it conforms to a strictly defined format, but even if you don't get that far, there is one very simple thing you can do that makes a big difference: don't use eval.
Yup. And you can also not use eval. If you never use eval, you basically guarantee that the set of code that can run during your program's execution is exactly equivalent to your program's source code.
Are you adequate?
Which OS is that one running? Did all the people who bought their new phone get the shaft?
And if you always parse it with a safe parser, you remove the whole need to trust the source not to inject code into your input data.
I've spent many years programming in Lisp, even getting paid for it. The only legitimate use I know for procedures like eval is to generate and compile code runtime for performance reasons, in software systems where the computations that will be done can't be known when the system itself is compiled. Paradigm example: a complex data analysis and reporting system where the users enter complex formulas to perform analysis on large data sets.
But guess what? The way those systems work is that the formula language provided to the user is strictly defined, with a real grammar; the user-entered formulas are parsed with a real parser that validates them against the grammar; the parser outputs an abstract syntax tree representation of the user-entered formulas; the abstract syntax tree is transformed into a Lisp expression that evaluates to a function that computes the value of the formula; and then that Lisp expression is passed to some eval-like procedure that outputs the corresponding compiled code. So the user input is four layers removed from eval, and extensively validated.
So basically, you need a really big justification to ever use eval or any other function that can potentially cause your program to execute arbitrary user input, and your system needs the equivalent of a parser and semantic analyzer in it anyway before it can be remotely safe to use eval.
Are you adequate?
Palm was once *the* one
Virtual monopoly
Not they're barely known
Man is the animal that laughs.
And occasionally whores for Karma.
Massively. It was good on paper but Palm never updated the software on it so the browser was piss-poor, network implementation felt last-minute, and they forgot to design the software for the hardware - mainly, the touchscreen calibration utility hadn't been updated to deal with the lower part of the screen (320x480 vs 320x320). My digitizer was a bit off, evidently, and the calibration utility should have let me correct for it, but it didn't, so it was impossible to use the onscreen keyboard. I had the choice of buying third party software to recalibrate the entire screen area, or correct for the error when typing by always tapping above the key I wanted.
I went through 3 Palm OS PDAs (m100, Sony TJ35, T|X) and I'm glad Palm is dead. Devices like the iPod touch are the new PDA.
If they used Ninnle Linux to replace PalmOS, they'd have much less trouble.
I've got my Clie SJ-22 that I've had for years (my Palm IIIx screen digitizer went out), and I still use it religiously, but now I've found out, horror of horrors, that it no longer syncs to my computer (Sony hardware issue, since I've tried my SO's cradle for nought; she's tried my cradle and it works for her). I can try an IR sync to see if that works. Either way, since the hardware is going, I need to find a place to put all those calendar items that I've been carrying around forever.
Aside from waiting for the Palm Pre, which I haven't heard if there's any way to migrate PalmOS info to, does anybody else have ideas for how and where to put all the Palm info? Extra credit: can't sync with Palm, but rather has to take the computer files. I don't want to buy anything from eBay either.
DT
Is this thing on? Hello?
I would like to think that a modder with 15 points to dispense got those points because they are able to recognize the value of a comment not because it fits their mindset but because it inspired thought beyond what they previously considered.
There's got to be a niche in there for Darl McBride when he's finished with his ride at SCO.
"Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past." -- George Orwell
I know nothing about phone hardware or operating systems but I'm assuming from the article that, say, upgrading a newer Palm Centro to webOS would be impossible?
Anybody?
Very little is known about the new Palm webOS, but it will supposedly support HTML5
Really?
A decade before the standard's expected to be done? While it's still in an early working draft that they can't stop squabbling over?
I'm impressed. Or sceptical. ...or they just intend to take 10 years over building the OS too. ;)
As someone's who's used a TX for years, now I wonder what are my options. I want a PDA that is NOT a phone. I keep a list of my logins for stuff in an encrypted DB app on my Palm, so what else would I use? A USB stick seems a clunky alternative.
Any suggestions?
I haven't upgraded to Palm OS 5 yet, and when my current PDA expires I'll probably look around online for another Palm OS 4 device.
And where is that UID threshold?
4 digits? 5?
5. Anybody with 6 digits or more in their UID is a total lame-ass poseur who came late to the party wearing last year's fashions.
Bow-ties are cool.
The API reminded me of the early Mac OS API. Everything was a handle, the screen-manipulation and string functions were similar, and the case convention was the same.
i'd hit it so hard, if you pulled me out you'd be the king of britain [bash.org]
I don't feel comfortable syncing my *personal* data to the "cloud"! I'd rather sync to Palm Desktop or KDE PIM...
I'm begging you.
XHTML was a successful attempt at letting HTML have an actual check on any validity. That way it was not possible to create that horrible mess of a trash-code that was done with the earlier versions.
But from working in that area for five years, I know, that 95% of all web-developers are actually completely incompetent, and never heard of any applicable programmer concepts like modularity, pretty printing, or proper structure. So they used the "Transitional" versions. But XTHML 1.1 and upwards have no transitional versions anymore. So they must have feared to lose their jobs because it could come out that they are not able to create a single proper page of markup.
So now they go back to making their Browsers guessing what they meant, being able to forget closing tags, so the browser has to guess it, which creates a semantic nightmare, and all-in-all not applying any structure on the code.
Hell, in my company, they did not even know the difference between Unix and Windows line endings. And so, their editor always made two lines out of one... Adding white space lines, until there were a dozen between every line of code. But nobody except me did ever remove them. They just kept scrolling like crazy. And don' even ask about searching and replacing them with the builtin RegExp functionality.
They would die before finishing to read the error output, if a browser would act like a real compiler on their "code".
And: No. HTML is NOT something that you should be able to use without acquiring proper knowledge first. Same as with a computer.
Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
Who knows where Be's intellectual property ended up.
According to the few rumours I've read on the web, small bits of Be where used in the multimedia stack of Palm Garnet (the only component of the OS which was multitasking).
The rest remained unused.
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
Ugh yeah sure, they simply forgot to turn that cheap dial to 11 at their factory!
All I want is a T5 the runs Linux and has built in Wifi.
Undetectable Steganography? Yep, there's an app fo
Palm's desktop software sucks big time.
You need administrators privileges to run it!
User settings are stored in c:\program files\xxx
It has multiuser support implemented in their software, instead of relying on windows' multiuser support and home directories.
Isn't this too obvious?
When a company decides they are no longer going to spend any money, time or capital on developing a software product, they should immediately re-license it under an Open Source compatible license, and give it away to the community.
THEY may not be interested in developing it any further, but that doesn't mean that WE aren't! (that, and we have already been supporting thousands of their users for over 12 years now).
Message to "New Palm": Get your head out of your ass and do the community some good will, by giving the OS away.. rip out all of the components which are patented and licensed to other incompatible third-parties, and let us rewrite those bits, and FIX the OS to continue to support the userbase.
I bought a refurbished Palm T|X, and it mysteriously died for no apparent reason.
After months at Palm they sent it back claiming water damage, when I know it never got wet. I synced it, walked away, returned to find it stone dead, no power, lights, nothing.
Fuck you palm, keep your damn Pre phone as well. I'll keep my iPhone.
I was a customer from the early Palm iii xe.
No more.
This is awful. I love PalmOS. It's so easy to use. I have a light weight laptop, and when I want a f*cking laptop I'll take it out. The Palm is an extension of my brain, not a portable computer. PalmOS is like the Mac of handhelds. Black and white is fine for scheduling things and remembering things I'd otherwise forget. That's the purpose of Palms; if they're trying to make a netbook they're getting it wrong.
I don't get why so many companies have so much trouble figuring out the PDA formula. It's appalling to think that with all the advances of wafer-thin phones, laptops with GeForces and a zillion processor cores, and suchlike that my five year old Dell X51V is STILL the best general purpose PDA you can buy.
This is not difficult. Here's what you do:
1. Make a general purpose PDA shaped computing device that's reasonably powerful, user programmable, and has software development tools that don't suck. Run Linux on it or whatever if you want to.
2. Make the phone component optional. Like, maybe, make the phone part a module or (gasp) sell it as a standalone PDA that you can plug a SIM card into IF YOU WANT TO, without having to tie it to a two year contract and some cell carrier.
3. ???
4. Profit.
From both the technical and marketplace perspectives, it is clear that Palm had no choice other than pull the plug (although they've mostly put themselves onto that situation). And, as others have said, development of the OS had already stopped years ago. But it doesn't stop one from having a slightly sad feeling of closing a chapter in a digital lifestyle age.
Palm OS is, for me, the icon of the computer-in-your-pocket times. The amazing fact of having a Palm III is that it had roughly the same firepower that the high-end computers of my late childhood (heck, almost the same CPU of an Amiga) - and it was available for me anywhere, anytime.
It is hard to underestimate that, and I feel sad to see it go - even not being an user anymore (yeah, I'll mark this day on my iPhone's calendar. :-P )
Who needs a jailed Linux distro having devices like Pandora? You are free to install or modify it, not just stuff authorized by the vendor.
Pandora is not just more powerful than most commercial devices, but makes you run software available for Linux and has a good community. It's also prepared for gaming as the community has roots in the homebrew gaming scene of Dreamcast, GP32, Zodiac and GP2X.
I think the power of the homebrew community is getting more strong with the time. This even happens with commercial devices like Android1 and iPhone (and video game systems too), and it's never going to be stopped even if companies like Apple and others try to do it (even if by using the law).
I always think of that web development as a necessary evil, why convert the application development in another hell? Even the web standards are not strong enough and companies like Microsoft are not forced to a 100% accurate implementation of them without non-standard crap implemented as in Internet Explorer.
I'll be able to use any kind of bluetooth device with my Pandora (not possible on iPhone), connect any cell phone for internet (iPhone has builtin cell phone, but what happens if new standard with higher transfer rates appears), play tons of homebrew games and emulators (iPhone lacks proper gaming controls), use Firerox or any WebKit browser (no Firefox on iPhone), and even emulate PalmOS (again, not possible on iPhone). I'll not be persecuted of being called a delinquent for installing non-standard stuff on it, and I'll be able to develop for a platform available on a lot of different places instead need to use the API of a niche platform.
If you want to know more about Pandora, there are some sites like openpandora.org and openpandora.wordpress.com