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Dealing With Fairness and Balance In Video Games

MarkN writes "Video games are subject to a number of balance issues from which traditional games have largely stayed free. It can be hard finding players of comparable skill-level to create even match-ups, diverse gameplay options can quickly become irrelevant if someone finds a broken feature that beats everything else, and some online games make your ability to play competitively a question of how much time and money you've invested in a game, rather than the skill you possess. In this article, I talk about some of the issues relating to fairness and balance in games, in terms of the factors and strategies under the player's control, the game's role in potentially handicapping players, and the role a community of gamers plays in setting standards for how games are to be played. What are your thoughts on managing a 'fair and balanced' gaming experience?"

192 comments

  1. I met Bobby Fischer once by BadAnalogyGuy · · Score: 5, Funny

    I had the chance to play Bobby Fischer at chess once. He kicked my ass around the block.

    Then he called me a fucking dirty Jew.

    Which was weird, because I'm not Jewish.

    Thinking about it now, I probably shouldn't have thought I could play chess with him.

    Back in the real world where playing video games cost a quarter or two, sometimes you only got to play 3 rounds of Street Fighter 2 because the other guy was master of Guile's Sonic Boom/Spinning upside-down kick combo. These days, you just disconnect and go find another game to join. Back then you risked cold hard cash every time you went in to play.

    1. Re:I met Bobby Fischer once by jack2000 · · Score: 1

      He *was* Jewish, and called people Anti-Semitic names anyway.

      That actually takes balls.

    2. Re:I met Bobby Fischer once by Hognoxious · · Score: 4, Funny

      Balls and most of a dick.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    3. Re:I met Bobby Fischer once by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He *was* Jewish, and called people Anti-Semitic names anyway.

      That actually takes balls.

      I don't really think it does. I'm Jewish and I call people cheap Jews etc. all the time (including proudly referring to myself as a stereotypically cheap Jew) and I tell bad jokes like "Hey what's the easiest way to fit 50 Jews in a car? In the ashtray!" all the time but it has a lot more to do with the fact that I am *entertained* by it than having balls.

      Just because you are a part of $group doesn't mean you can't be entertained by things directed against $group.

      I'd just like to add, that my CAPTCHA word for submitting this is "molests". lolololol

    4. Re:I met Bobby Fischer once by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Since when does an fp containing the phrase "fucking dirty Jew" get modded to +5?

    5. Re:I met Bobby Fischer once by Quiet_Desperation · · Score: 4, Funny

      That would be an awesome T-shirt. "Bobby Fischer called me a dirty Jew"

    6. Re:I met Bobby Fischer once by The+Moof · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I had the chance to play Bobby Fischer at chess once. He kicked my ass around the block.

      Then he called me a fucking dirty Jew.

      Which was weird, because I'm not Jewish.

      Serious or not, that's the best metaphor for gaming online I've every heard.

    7. Re:I met Bobby Fischer once by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      See, that's just obscure enough to go over most peoples' heads.. but kudos to you, sir, on the circumcision joke.

    8. Re:I met Bobby Fischer once by rpbird · · Score: 1

      I enjoy a challenge, and I purposefully die enough in my favorite shooters that no one thinks I'm a pro, semi-pro maybe. But I often hang out with real pros, elite gamers, and when they appear in a game, guys bail so fast, you'd think we were on the Titanic. Some of the pros change their names every so often, just to get a game. But you know who they are, you know when someone snipes you from the freakin' other side of the damn map, from behind a pillar next to crashed gunship, and you know, you just know it's that damn DeathWolf under another name!

    9. Re:I met Bobby Fischer once by Ihmhi · · Score: 1

      With some editing, it makes a bitchin' haiku.

      Bobby Fischer
      Called me a jew when I won
      I'm a gentile.

    10. Re:I met Bobby Fischer once by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Attempting to undo my accidental mod...

    11. Re:I met Bobby Fischer once by nonewmsgs · · Score: 1

      can you give the scoresheet (moves)?

    12. Re:I met Bobby Fischer once by murdocj · · Score: 1

      Actually, it just takes insanity.

  2. Connection speed comes to mind by Skurge357 · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    I'm stuck with an older DSL, since my local service providers are not finished upgrading here. 768Kb. If I'm going PvP against someone with 5Mb fibre or a T1, frame lag is going to get me my ass handed to me in a few seconds. One possible way to fix that (at least for PvP) would be to adjust the speed to match the slowest connection involved. Obviously not good for overall game play, but in direct combat with other players.

    1. Re:Connection speed comes to mind by bemymonkey · · Score: 5, Informative

      You obviously haven't played online much. The important thing here is latency, not throughput. Any latency under 80ms is more than playable, and a 768k DSL line is more than capable of that. Hell, with fastpath I used to hit ~30ms on a 1M line.

      Just use a server that's in the same country instead of halfway around the world.

    2. Re:Connection speed comes to mind by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Then prepare for kickvotes based on your connection, "ruining" the game for those with fast connections. And again, rants on the boards about how unfair it all is.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    3. Re:Connection speed comes to mind by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Start playing Call of Duty: World at War. I have a 16Mb down 6Mb up cable internet connection. Thus, this turd of a game usually makes me the host of the room. When this happens all the leeches running DSL start lagging around the room making it unbearable to play. So the makers of COD have found a way to make a faster internet connection a HUGE disadvantage.

      If I had those developers in a room with a claw hammer for 15 minutes I'd........

    4. Re:Connection speed comes to mind by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      lol. Are you in the US perhaps? Five years ago we enjoyed quake2 capture the flag with ping 6ms. And the server _was_ in a different country (albeit a neighboring one).

    5. Re:Connection speed comes to mind by ukyoCE · · Score: 1

      It doesn't count when your "neighboring country" is closer to you than most states are to each other in the US.

      Most latency seems to come from changing networks. I'll have 5 ping to a comcast network on the other side of the United States, and 80 ping to another server that's 1 state away but on a different network.

      On comcast I've always (for over a decade) had sub-10 pings to numerous servers. Often the lowest ping servers would be in Germany or France. And I can assure you I'm a hell of a lot further from Germany or France than they are from each other.

    6. Re:Connection speed comes to mind by mjwx · · Score: 1

      I'm stuck with an older DSL, since my local service providers are not finished upgrading here. 768Kb. If I'm going PvP against someone with 5Mb fibre or a T1, frame lag is going to get me my ass handed to me in a few seconds. One possible way to fix that (at least for PvP) would be to adjust the speed to match the slowest connection involved. Obviously not good for overall game play, but in direct combat with other players.

      What is needed here is for game developers to write better code, I used to play BF1942 on a dial up connection and it was good enough when playing with people within Australia, When I upgraded to 256k DSL (oh, the speed) BF was seamless. Now I'm on 6Mbit DSL and most games are worse then BF1942, why can't dev's write good net code any more?

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    7. Re:Connection speed comes to mind by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then you face the problem that the game isn't very popular in the country you are living now. Or even in nearby countries.
      I can't properly play OpenArena now.
      I had a bad ping in Europe, because no server was near by. But now that I live in Japan I do have a server, but nobody plays here except foreign noobs that got lost or thought they would be able to win if a half of the other team players were bots set to easy.
      I would like to play other kind of games, but at this point, OSS games, means FPSs with stolen formerly-proprietary engine. And OpenArena is the best at that.

      I just wish I was a kid again and had the free time to do it myself.

  3. Predictability and variation by jandersen · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I don't agree with the article about the expectation of fairness in games vs real life. I think in both cases what we really want is to know the rules, so we have a chance of following them and making it through.

    In games I simply want things to be moderately predictable - so that with experience I can become better. And then I want variation; it gets pretty tedious if it is always just the same few things you do, like just killing monsters.

    1. Re:Predictability and variation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I don't agree with the article about the expectation of fairness in games vs real life. I think in both cases what we really want is to know the rules, so we have a chance of following them and making it through.

      Now you know how people who run small businesses feel when the government changes tax policy every 4-8 years.

    2. Re:Predictability and variation by Admiral+Ag · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The real life comparison is important, since a lot of the unfairness in online social gaming occurs because of the anonymity and the ability of people to create new accounts to bypass handicapping systems. In Warhawk, people were creating new accounts simply in order to enter noob servers and stomp people. That's silly and self defeating, especially for a game with a small playerbase.

      If you want online gaming to be fair, then it will have to be fair the same way sports are fair, by rigorous policing of permitted equipment and making sure folks karma follows them around.

      Fairness in design is much less of a problem in most games.

      --
      "by that I mean people who don't sit on slashdot all day wondering why everyone else isn't building robots" DECS
    3. Re:Predictability and variation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most people only want to know the rules so they can find ways to circumvent them...

    4. Re:Predictability and variation by AP31R0N · · Score: 1

      This is true of all games with power curves ala D&D. N00bstomping is one of the many reasons i left WoW.

      PlanetSide is an MFPS with a shallow power curve. A day old character gets the same tank as a five year character. Noobs can be competitive right away. High ranking characters gain versatility instead of god like powers.

      --
      Utilizing the synergization of benchmark e-solutions to pre-workaround action items!
  4. That's easy by metamechanical · · Score: 3, Funny

    That's easy! Just get the ones published by Fox News!

    --
    If I had a nickel for every time I had a nickel, I'd be richcursive!
    1. Re:That's easy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      The best part is you can pick up Nancy Grace from the downtown marina, fuck her senseless in a secluded area, then run here over and steal her cash. She does her 'sucking on a lemon' face when she cums.

    2. Re:That's easy by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      ... Worped to the Level where Bill Clinton is the cause of all our problems, and McCain is now president.

      Now that's what I call a minus world...

  5. Bland Games by squoozer · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Please excuse me widening the discussion but... I play quite a few RTS games and I've noticed that over the last few years the various different playable races in those games have tended to become very similar in ability.

    It used to be the case that in an RTS there were generally one or two races that were slightly better than the others but now they are very well balanced. The problem is that they have balanced the races by making them all the same and thus removing one of the most interesting aspects of the genre.

    In AOE II for example you could pit a strong ranged race against a strong close combat race and have a damn good game with each side trying to lure the other into traps that play to their strength. By AOE III every race was damn near the same.

    Ah well, maybe one day someone will have the courage / time to properly balance a game again. Oh and, get off my lawn you kids.

    --
    I used to have a better sig but it broke.
    1. Re:Bland Games by fredc97 · · Score: 1

      German Board games are notorious for balancing everything because they usually give each players the exact same cards or bonuses, what is left is either picked randomly or chosen by the player.

      The order of cards play, or the response to any given action will determine the winner. The goal is quite often to optimize a pool of resources and again the skill and|or luck will determine the winner.

    2. Re:Bland Games by N1AK · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You are exactly right that tight 'game balance' tends to lead to blander options.

      I have seen this in miniature wargaming as well as in computer gaming. But what is really interesting is that even when races aren't perfectly balanced they can still balance well in a competitive environment. In StarCraft the Terrans were seen as being the weakest race, Lim Yo-Hwan then built a reputation as arguably the best SC player while playing as Terrans.

      This is what players refer to when they talk of meta-gaming, which is players gaming the game. If I know that Snipers are the best weapon in Halo 3 and that players will go for them and practice with them more than other weapons then it makes sense for me to learn anti-sniper tactics. Very quickly Sniping will become balanced (or even disadvantaged) because you are playing a strat that everyone has trained to beat.

    3. Re:Bland Games by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Whereas in Axis vs. Allies the Axis always loses.

    4. Re:Bland Games by Shin-LaC · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Ah well, maybe one day someone will have the courage / time to properly balance a game again.

      I hear Blizzard is working on StarCraft 2.

    5. Re:Bland Games by ady1 · · Score: 1, Interesting

      I blame it on the consoles.
      Note that it has become impossible to find a good and worth playing game now a days (few exceptions).
      Interesting Story and Complex gameplay is now a thing of the past.
      Now every game has to be able to be played through the controller and have to be easy enough to not intimidate the so called 'casual player'.

    6. Re:Bland Games by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      A recent thing? I recall RTSes starting out with similar sides and only with StarCraft did they really start making big distinctions between the sides where even basic mechanics could differ rather than just a few specialist units and maybe a stat change that doesn't really matter in the big RPS scheme. Nowadays RTSes get dinged for having too similar sides and the differences get more and more extreme (e.g. Universe At War had some very dissimilar sides AFAIK). What DOES happen is that every side has a certain set of units that has equivalents in the other factions but often implemented completely different.

      I'll point at KP here because it's a fairly simple example: All three sides have a spam unit, a medium unit and a large unit. For the System that's a plain combat unit, a heavy artillery piece and an armored antiswarm unit, for the Hacker that's a slightly weaker combat unit with the ability to turn into a light artillery emplacement, the DoS longer ranged stunner unit that disables enemy units while it's beaming at them and the Worm which is comparable to a mobile and reusable landmine, one surprise strike at enemy forces, turning them into viruses and then hide and run. The Network's basic spam can be teleported by storing it in a buffer until it's needed, the medium unit is a flying gunship with explosive attacks that works best in swarms and is the only flying unit and the heavy unit is mostly a teleporter node for the spam with a decent anti-armor beam on the top. It's very different to encounter a Byte with its large, explosive shots than to fight a Connection that can bring the player's whole army to the fight in a few moments.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    7. Re:Bland Games by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      Well, Agricola deals you a hand of 14 cards (7 from each of the two decks) and those can have a major influence on the game. However I've noticed that a player can pretty much ignore them and play more for traditional points and still win.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    8. Re:Bland Games by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      I think the modern controller has more buttons and features then most keyboards now. Yea I am kinda old school. I tried playing XBox against a 5 year old, and he was like oh to do that press A,B then X, Y, Z spin the controller three spins left and two right and hit the trigger twice. And that was just to make me stand up. I remember the old Sierra games when I had to type "stand up" to do the same thing.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    9. Re:Bland Games by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      Off Balance sometimes gives you a better edge. For the people who were really into improving their Game would actually choose the weaker players and actually use their brain more to win. I remember a while back when I was big in Star Craft, and I am in No way a big gamer, I was working with a friend on Protoss Probe warfare against other people one line sending all they got to us. I found that we could be quite competitive (and annoying a lot of people greatly) when we got it right. Enough distraction and misdirection for us to put a cannon infrastructure around key areas, to starve them out and keep them from building and expanding. Probe on Probe fighting to keep them from getting resources. And make a Zealot or 2 and a little bit of air support just to get rid of the long range fighters. Yea we lost sometimes but we won more then you would think.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    10. Re:Bland Games by mR.bRiGhTsId3 · · Score: 1

      I don't necessarily agree with you about AOE III. Granted, I've never played AOE II, but I've found that even though all the races share a number of units they all have unique ones that lend themselves to different strategies. And the shared units have different strengths that really come out in the later units with upgrades. If I remember correctly for instance the Russian Veteran Musketeer has fewer hp than a basic British one. I enjoy it, although in some ways it is taking a cheap route in that most of the balancing only needs to be done once and can be shared across all races.

    11. Re:Bland Games by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      The curse and blessing of computer games becoming mainstream: Casual gamers.

      They didn't exist 20 years ago. Either you played computer games, or you didn't. Either you were willing to spend hour after hour to master a game, or you didn't want to pick up the joystick at all. Games had to be fairly cheap to make because, well, there wasn't a huge target audience.

      Today, games come along with budgets that make some movies turn green with envy, yet they have to cater to a completely different audience. Now it's important that everyone can pick it up and play it without spending any time to learn it.

      Few games managed to be both, friendly for casual gamers and interesting for hardcore players. Those that managed to solve this problem became quite popular. Maybe it could be an incentive for developers and studios to produce games that concentrate on solving this problem rather than trying to outdo each other with flashy graphics and more gimmicks.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    12. Re:Bland Games by PracticalM · · Score: 2, Interesting
      German or Designer board games often balance things by auctions or player choice. There are still first move advantages but auction do help balance.

      Though different game groups often have different balance points. I've played with some groups that valued items differently in Princes of Florence than my usual group did.

      Some games like Power Grid reverse the turn order to give advantages to players behind.

      And Agricola has different players all picking from exclusive actions where each player is trying to follow their own strategy based on some of their cards (minor improvements and occupations).

      Designer board games are fairly well balanced but skill will generally put you ahead. They are often designed to play with the entire family (most have rules about the youngest player going first usually a kid playing against parents).

      Sure some of these games can be considered lightly themed, but the interesting part of the games are the mechanics not the theme. Some of the better games have mechanics that go well with the theme. Other games are less successful in matching theme to mechanic. Some of us are more interested in the mechanics though.

    13. Re:Bland Games by FTWinston · · Score: 1

      My thoughts exactly. And after a few years of patching after release, it will hopefully be as balanced as its predecessor.

    14. Re:Bland Games by Mister+Whirly · · Score: 1

      Really? My keyboard has 104 keys. How many buttons does your controller have?

      --
      "But this one goes to 11!"
    15. Re:Bland Games by reddog093 · · Score: 0

      Amen to that. My first RTS was Command & Conquer Gold. I used to spend hours on a dial-up link against my buddy. With him as GDI and myself as NOD, the strong offense vs. strong defense games lasted forever..and I loved them!

    16. Re:Bland Games by Draek · · Score: 1

      Then play a better RTS. I'd recommend any from the Total War series, haven't played Empire yet but the rest certainly have well defined 'races', much moreso than AoE1 last time I played it.

      Another suggestion could be LotR: Battle for Middle-Earth 2, not only does it have different races requiring different focus each, but even different philosophies between the 'good' and the 'evil' races, the former having fewer but stronger units, and the latter requiring large numbers with support from their at times overpowered heroes.

      --
      No problem is insoluble in all conceivable circumstances.
    17. Re:Bland Games by amoeba1911 · · Score: 1

      I think Total Annihilation is the only game out there where all players have the same abilities and resources, but how they decide to use them changes the whole game. Each side has wheeled, legged, flying, hovering and floating (naval) units. The game gives you unlimited resources at limited rate. Since all sides have roughly the same units, the game depends largely on how you react to your opponents' strategy. There's no fixed general strategy, it keeps the game challenging and entertaining. If you haven't tried yet, get TA Spring http://spring.clan-sy.com/
      and it's open source!

    18. Re:Bland Games by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I've noticed that over the last few years the various different playable races in those games have tended to become very similar in ability.

      It used to be the case that in an RTS there were generally one or two races that were slightly better than the others but now they are very well balanced. The problem is that they have balanced the races by making them all the same and thus removing one of the most interesting aspects of the genre.

      "Become"? If you've seen the genre back in the days when it was still called "C&C clones", you'd know that it was the initial state of affairs. Most had factions with units differing almost or only in appearance, with exactly the same movement speed & damage output - just because it always was the easiest way to "balance" things. Better RTS games of old did have some variety, but even so the unit rankings were always parallel (e.g. in Warcraft II, Paladins and Ogres were different, but they were clearly "of the same level", and the number of buildings you'd have to construct to get to them was exactly ther same, too). It took Starcraft to show that radically different factions were viable, and could be properly balanced.

    19. Re:Bland Games by eddy+the+lip · · Score: 1

      This is one of the reasons I think Sins of a Solar Empire looks interesting. One of the key parts of the game is different races with very different abilities.

      Haven't had a chance to play it yet (so little time for gaming anymore...), but I'm definitely going to make time for this one. Might be worth a peek if you're into space based RTS's.

      --

      This is the voice of World Control. I bring you Peace.

    20. Re:Bland Games by DreadPiratePizz · · Score: 2, Informative

      Even Starcraft, a game that is remarkably balanced, isn't fully so. Because the races are so different, there are many situations that give the enemy the upper hand. This is why the professional players in Korea do not play on Blizzard's maps, but specially crafted ones to make sure that the playing field is as fair as possible.

      Blizzard's own maps are terribly imbalanced, and in this day and age with the knowledge players have, there is no way a fair game can be played on any of them. Maps with ledges over bases favor Terran. Maps with large or no choke points favor zerg. Maps with no natural expansion or one with no gas penalizes zerg. Maps with island expansions favor terran. Etc. Etc.

      The races are so vastly different, yet on properly designed maps players of high skill can compete as equals, somewhat amazingly.

      As far as Boxer goes whom you mention, modern professional SC is dramatically different than when he was in his prime. Boxer won by clever tricks and unit micromanagement. This won't win you games anymore as a Terran, and Boxer's strategies and build orders don't work against modern opponents very often. Playstyle is always changing, and players are able to adapt to that and keep the game fresh and new. This is in part to the imbalance of the races.

      What's good about Starcraft is that since the races are not necessarily balanced, it's nearly impossible to determine the optimal playstyle or strategy, since those differences allow for amazing flexibility. Thus, the game is vastly different now, than even 2 years ago before things like the Bisu Build. This makes a game fun and interesting.

    21. Re:Bland Games by Cederic · · Score: 1

      I'd hold off Empire until/unless they fix the bugs in it.

      By 'bug' I mean that game managed to blue-screen my laptop last night. First piece of software to do that for two years.

    22. Re:Bland Games by numbski · · Score: 1

      Well, that's the crux of it, now isn't it?

      Online Football is my game of choice, and I tend to play All Pro Football 2K8 more than anything else.

      The game expects you to make your own team, and you get to pick 11 "stars" for your team, and everyone else is "average". So right off the start, you are balanced with everyone else in that regard.

      Of course, balance goes right out the window - everyone immediately goes looking for the "best" stars, and those are the only ones you ever see online. Jerry Rice is easily the best WR in the game, so who does everyone have if they have a gold WR? For a while when the game first came out, Earl Campbell was somewhat overpowered. Tacklers would just fall off of him - again, and again, and again. So what happened? Every team had Earl Campbell on it for a long time, and the offense comprised of "Run Earl up the middle, drop it off to Earl in the flats, run Earl up the middle..." - again, and again, and again. It wasn't that you didn't know what was coming and didn't call the right defense, it just didn't matter. Thankfully after the first patch they neutered poor Earl. :P

      So you can complain about blandness, or you can complain about balance. In a game like APF, balance leads to diversity - you start seeing more players because even though certain players excel at certain abilities, those abilities vary and thus you get variety.

      Of course there are still those (in large quantity) that simply want to win and have no intention of playing the game as designed, ever. It's all about winning, so they find every little glitch they can and exploit it to their advantage. Recently I've seen players tackling (or come close to tackling) my Quarterback before he even gets out from underneath center. That's insane. There's also the more or less guaranteed field goal blocking, the fade routes, and there's a glitchy route that goes to the outside on a slant that no zone in the game will cover. The list goes on and on. I simply class these players as griefers. Griefers are the larger problem with balance online. If everyone desired to play the game as designed, balance wouldn't be as large of an issue. It's those fringe players that want to ruin it for everyone else that you're really seeking to balance out of the game.

      --

      Karma: Chameleon (mostly due to the fact that you come and go).

    23. Re:Bland Games by slyrat · · Score: 1

      And German board games are getting more and more into the mainstream because of downloadable versions. Settler's of catan may be one of the lighter german board games but the way it has been doing on xbox live just shows how well good game mechanics and balance can sell.

    24. Re:Bland Games by Madsy · · Score: 1

      Speaking of which, Dark Colony (1997) comes to mind: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Colony Fun to play, but not much diversity to speak of.

  6. Quake Live by n3tcat · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Quake Live does a great thing by having you go up against a bot, and then determines your level of skill from that and then emphasizes those servers which are taylored to your skill level when you look through the server browser.

    Of course you see people who play outside their skill level, but for the most part you are surrounded by people who play on your level.

    1. Re:Quake Live by godfra · · Score: 1

      I played that bot on the hardest level and narrowly beat it. My next two games against human opponents were laughably easy though, and I was never really that into Quake. I think they need to work on the rating system somehow.

    2. Re:Quake Live by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Although this might sound good in theory Quake Live only uses 5 skill levels to make this determination, with that few options you will never be able to pitch an "even" game. It's a small step on the way though and might help eliminate a skill 5 player playing a skill 1 player and at least weed out the worst setups. Battle.net has had something similar for years in Warcraft 3.

    3. Re:Quake Live by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The whole Quake Live thing is still in beta, on their forums there are more complaints about the skill matching system not working 100% correctly yet.

    4. Re:Quake Live by Archon-X · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Alternatively, I've always found myself to be quite a decent FPS player, and will always finish in the top 3 in HL2 DM, TF2, Unreal Tourny, Day of Defeat - all quite different playing dynamics.

      Quake3, however, is a different kettle of fish. The people I play against are significantly harder [read, they finish on 30 and I'm on 5], whereas if I play down a level, it'll be similar results but in my favour.

      Quake3 is obviously built for speed and sheer mayhem, but the thing that I do find is that its maps are heavily weighted towards longer living players.
      IE - weapon stops are quite a distance away - on more open / busy maps, you can spend 5 - 6 respawns just trying to get to a weapon successfully.

      In addition to which, weapon stay seems to be turned off, so people camping near weapons just keep on collecting them, preventing others from getting them.

      Not sure if I'm being a cry-baby or these points have merit.

      Apart from that, it seems quite balanced.

    5. Re:Quake Live by soupforare · · Score: 1

      Yeah, weapon and armour controlling has long been a standard of quake dm. Most servers won't have stay enabled. Don't bother trying to engage someone until you can effectively fight with the machinegun/gauntlet, just run. Doesn't help much if they're camping but once you get used to the maps you shouldn't have too much of a problem.
      I hope they either port some classic DM maps (DM6, Q2DM1) or allow for third party maps once it's out of beta.

      --
      --- Do you believe in the day?
    6. Re:Quake Live by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Play RA3 for Quake3. It's nice to spawn with everyone with the same weapons.

    7. Re:Quake Live by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Play on some of the higher end UT2k4 servers and it's the same way, Quake4 also. Weapon stay is generally off, and dying can set you back quite a bit, staying alive is important as, in the case of UT2k4, the shock rifle and lighting gun, or in quake4 the rail gun are snatched almost instantly. Once you have one, you need to keep it.

  7. Why does it need to be balanced? by Kokuyo · · Score: 1

    The summary contradicts itself: Either it is balanced or your skill decides whether you are successful. If someone just is better at the game through sheer talent, how could this ever be balanced. And should it be?

    Now balancing the avatars is another matter. If there is a glitch or a combo move that just pwns everyone, then that is a game imbalance. So you can own my ass using three moves from Guile? Well, nice for you, but I can play all the other characters and have fun. You will always win, but don't expect me to play you very often if that's all I'm going to see from you. Basically, if it doesn't happen to be WoW then such people will very soon be playing alone, thus balancing the game again ;).

    1. Re:Why does it need to be balanced? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you can't beat a Guile spamming charge moves you need to re-evaluate your Street Fighter skills.

  8. Cannot be balanced nor fair by MartinSchou · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Making it 'fair and balanced' can be fun (handicapping in golf or go), but in most cases it just makes a video game crappy.

    Back in the days of Rainbow Six (yes, and now you can get off my lawn) I created an online ranking system based off of chess' scoring system. This worked great for the players and teams, as you didn't really have to find people on your own skill level to have something to gain.

    If I (a mediocre chess player) were to play the reigning world champion of chess, he'd stand to gain maybe 1 point in his ranking by winning (I'd lose 1 I think), but if I were to win, I'd gain upwards of 24 or 32 points (and he'd lose a lot of points). This scoring system makes it worthwile for the best player to avoid drawing or losing to a less skilled player.

    We did get a few complaints about the scoring, because the "best" players were used to them being unable to lose their top spot without losing to #2, where as with this system, someone could overtake them simply by winning lots and lots of games against less skilled players/teams. This has the upside of enticing people to play more, and not just by cherry picking from the top 10. Any adversary is okay, as it gives you a chance to win more points.

    See more on the Wiki page

    1. Re:Cannot be balanced nor fair by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Explain how this rewards griefing.

      I think the idea itself has merit. If you see a possible exploit, you should maybe explain how it could be done so the flaw can be removed.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    2. Re:Cannot be balanced nor fair by protodevilin · · Score: 3, Interesting

      A similar ranking system is now utilized in Street Fighter IV's online matches. Battle Points are earned for each victory you attain, but the amount of points awarded is relative to the points you already have vs. the points your defeated opponent has. So if you have 2000 Battle Points, and you crush a n00b with only 172 points, you are rewarded with maybe 2 or 3 BP (which the loser forfeits in turn). On the other hand, if you were to lose against that same n00b, you'd probably get 120 points slashed from your stock (which the winner gains in turn).

      The result is a ranking system that fairly accurately ranks you among other players who share your level of skill. A fine example of PvP balancing. ...It also results in widespread disdain for the ranking system, due to the high risk of losing a lot of hard-earned points that accompanies each match. Guess you can't please everyone.

    3. Re:Cannot be balanced nor fair by grimJester · · Score: 1

      Congratulations. You have succeeded in creating a system which rewards griefing.

      Not quite. The skew between points risked and points gained (risk/reward) should be relative to the chance of the outcomes; e.g. A player with a 2000 rating fights a 1600-rated one. There's an 80% chance the first guy wins. If he wins, he gains 4 points and the other loses 4. If he loses, he loses 16 points and the other gains 16. You could conceivably make the system account for things other than rating, such as level, class, buffs etc.

      Griefing is minimized if a player with close to 100% chance of win can lose a decent amount of points, but will gain nothing or next to nothing. Rounding could be a problem if the minimum points gain for a win is set to one.

      Also, lol @ thinking the points system for chess ranking rewards griefing :D

    4. Re:Cannot be balanced nor fair by sortius_nod · · Score: 1

      I love how your sig is about anti-trolls, yet you're doing it yourself.

      What has creating a balanced scoring system got to do with griefing? A lot of MMOs seems to be using this kind of system for PvP to REDUCE griefing. If you get the same points per kill no matter if they are shit hot or a noob you'll always go for the noob (grief). With degraded scoring, you tend to aim higher and leave the noobs till last.

      Obvious troll is obvious...

    5. Re:Cannot be balanced nor fair by MartinSchou · · Score: 1

      How does it reward griefing?

      If you're a great player and win against a crappy player, you'll gain very little and he'll lose very little, as that is the expected outcome. If you lose you lose quite a bit and he'll gain quite a bit as this is unexpected. A bit like a random 8th grader KO'ing Mike Tyson in the ring.

      If you're playing against people on your own rung (i.e. 1615 vs 1630), the expectation is that the higher rated player will win a few more games. As such he might win 10 points and lose 12, whereas the lower rated player will win 12 and lose 10 points.

      It's not a system that I designed. It's been designed by a professor of physics (I suspect his math and statistics skills are a lot better than either of us) and is currently used by not only the chess society, but Major League Baseball, American college football and basketball, The North American National Scrabble Association, The European Go Federation, Guild Wars, World of Warcraft, Yahoo Games and a lot of other places.

      Now, obviously, the people behind these groups had completely forgotten about griefers. I'm sure if you write them and explains this to them, they'll bow their heads in shame and quickly remove this scoring system.

      I mean - you're DrikyProo - you have a Slashdot ID that's below 160k. Obviously you're geek creed and math mojo is better than theirs.

    6. Re:Cannot be balanced nor fair by Celarnor · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Explain how this rewards griefing.

      I think the idea itself has merit. If you see a possible exploit, you should maybe explain how it could be done so the flaw can be removed.

      Its pretty simple.

      Person ranked #2 decides he wants to be ranked #1. He's not really good at the game, but he does have a lot of time on his hands. So, he spends 20 hours a day fighting and killing people who just started playing. Even though he's only getting one or two points a kill, it doesn't matter; if he can kill new players at a rate 24x that of player ranked #1, then he can ascend to that spot. Does that help?

      This would work in most current MMOs because playability is tied to the level; e.g, a high-level character is going to be better than a low-level character. You can't take a low-level character and put him with a bunch of high-level characters and expect him to be of any use. With the possible exception of games like EVE Online, where even a newly made character can at the very least jam you and run away, the new players would get walked all over for points.

      It doesn't really need to be said how it rewards griefing; it already intrinsically does so. if it offers any kind of benefit at all for killing newer players, and especially if it offers the same or better benefits, taking into account the amount of time required to kill one, number killed per day, etc, its going to reward it.

      The question is how to make it NOT do that; e.g, establish a point below which no reward is gained, and stick it about halfway down from your current level or whatever.

      Please, as the GP posts, don't consider implementing this anywhere without addressing some of the more glaring issues.

    7. Re:Cannot be balanced nor fair by Celarnor · · Score: 1

      How does it reward griefing?

      If you're a great player and win against a crappy player, you'll gain very little and he'll lose very little, as that is the expected outcome.

      You're missing the point.

      It isn't about the magnitude of the gain. Its about there being a gain at all, and whether or not the same level of gain can be achieved through speed and efficiency killing new players rather than fighting one another.

      If I can kill swaths of noobs at the starting city at 10 a minute and get 2.4 points for each one, what's the point of a 10-minute long PVP session that nets me 24 points?

    8. Re:Cannot be balanced nor fair by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      I mean - you're DrikyProo - you have a Slashdot ID that's below 160k. Obviously you're geek creed and math mojo is better than theirs.

      Congratulations on typing what you see.

      The problem apparently is that you did not describe the system well to begin with. You said "with this system, someone could overtake them simply by winning lots and lots of games against less skilled players/teams. This has the upside of enticing people to play more, and not just by cherry picking from the top 10. Any adversary is okay, as it gives you a chance to win more points." The problem is that it also has the effect of enticing people to play against people far below their skill level. What you did was not a skill ranking system (apparently chess doesn't have one either?) but simply a victory ranking system.

      If the point of your system is to show who got the most kills, then that's fine. But if the point of your system is as stated, to provide actual "fair and balanced" play then you have failed. This system does not help you find players who have a similar skill, which is what we're talking about here. It only helps determine how much ass you have kicked in volume, not how much ass you can kick at any given time. Ranking up players for defeating players ranked lower than them should never happen. It reduces the incentive to play against players who are better than you, which is the only way to get better at the game.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    9. Re:Cannot be balanced nor fair by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      How about evening it out through the number of games played?

      I don't know if you're familiar with the ELO system. One of its weak points is, granted, that it does not expect chess players to play a few dozen games per day, but even if, the points gained (and risked, in case of a loss) are in no relation.

      Add to it all that a disconnect results in an automatic loss and it simply does not work anymore. Granted, in MMOs there is a zero chance that a lv 1 character will succeed, ever, against a maxed out char. But this system can work in FPS and RTS games well. Even a complete newbie has a one-in-a-million chance to toast a routined player. And that's enough to ruin his rating completely, because one loss against an absolute beginner nulls dozens, if not hundreds of games won against inexperienced players.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    10. Re:Cannot be balanced nor fair by Kjella · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yeah, because you can become the #1 chess player simply by beating n00bs. Not.

      Games where you have no realistic chance of losing should also grant you next to no points. If you can beat a weak player *much* faster than a strong player you might have to tune the scale some more, because the idea is that you should earn more points the stronger opponents you beat. Simply round down once you get below 0.5 points or make the numbers much bigger (your rating increased by +1 to 456430) and there's no "single-point" exploit of significance even if they play 24/7. Once you have tuned it so that you must play against players there's some chance you'll lose against to earn more points, problem solved.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    11. Re:Cannot be balanced nor fair by ethorad · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You are right in that it's about whether the fastest rate of gain can be achieved through fighting low or high level opponents, but just because the numbers you picked don't work doesn't mean the system doesn't work.

      The idea is that the gain/loss from playing each match is related to the probability of winning. In your example, killing noobs gets you 24 points a minute, while the PvP session gets you 2.4 and thus your example is unbalanced. People will grief as the reward per minute is higher.

      In reality the score would be set up so that your expected gains from fighting the low levels is no higher than the expected gains from high levels, and should be less.

      Thus say in 10 minutes you could find and kill 10 noobs each with a 99% success rate. If each kill gets you 1 point and each loss loses 50 then you're looking at an expected increase of 0.49 points per noob (0.99*1+0.01*-100), or 4.9 points per 10 minute session.

      Now in 10 minutes, maybe you could find and attack 2 people of a more comparable level. Your chance of success with these guys is only 70%, but now you're getting 10 points for a kill, and losing 15 for a death (still losing more than gaining since chance of winning is greater than 50%). You now expect 2.5 points per person (0.7*10+0.3*-15), or 5 points per 10 minutes.

      The system is then balanced and you should be neutral between griefing noobs or fighting more challenging opponents. If we then tweak the rewards slightly we can create a level slope whereby the expected gains per minute from noob griefing is less than the gains per minute of doing comparable level fights. You could even tweak the rewards such that the expected return from fighting noobs is negative, even though each win is an increase. If above it was a 100 point loss on losing to a noob, your expeced increase would be -0.01 (0.99*1+0.01*-100).

      Now the system means that while you can get points from griefing, you won't get more points than someone who is fighting higher level opponents. Thus if you want to be #1 you need to be gaining points faster than the current #1 and so you won't grief.

    12. Re:Cannot be balanced nor fair by chadplusplus · · Score: 2, Interesting

      is currently used by not only the chess society, but Major League Baseball, American college football and basketball, The North American National Scrabble Association, The European Go Federation, Guild Wars, World of Warcraft, Yahoo Games and a lot of other places.

      And Halo.

      Halo matchmaking takes it another step, which I find interesting, in that it attempts to match you up based upon ranking, but also upon the amount of time or tries that it has taken you to attain that level. If I've attained a level 20 after only 30 games, it is more likely that I will be matched up with others who have attained level 20 after around 30 games instead of those who are stuck at level 20 after 1,000 games.

      I note that the above is a bit of a simplification of how it is done, as it is technically based upon rank and experience points in game type and experience points overall, but the above suffices for this discussion.

      If Quake Live is able to implement an effective ranking/matchmaking system, I may finally have the justification to build a new PC.

    13. Re:Cannot be balanced nor fair by naam00 · · Score: 1

      Person ranked #2 decides he wants to be ranked #1. He's not really good at the game, but he does have a lot of time on his hands. So, he spends 20 hours a day fighting and killing people who just started playing. Even though he's only getting one or two points a kill, it doesn't matter; if he can kill new players at a rate 24x that of player ranked #1, then he can ascend to that spot. Does that help?

      ...I think the idea is that that same #2 would lose a lot of points by simply losing once to one of those new players, and just 1 point for winning.

      Not saying griefing isn't possible, but there's some nicely built-in risk/reward I think.

    14. Re:Cannot be balanced nor fair by Talderas · · Score: 1

      You must have not heard about the story where a lv1 challenge a character of the highest level to a duel where the loser had to give the winner all his equipment. The high laugh, agreed and started the duel. The high level watched and did nothing as the low level beat on him for awhile barely harming him. The high level then left and went to get something to eat from Taco Bell. When he got back, his health was at 1% and before he could kill the lv1, the lv1 put the killing blow on the high level, winning all his equipment.

      --
      "Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
    15. Re:Cannot be balanced nor fair by johnsonav · · Score: 1

      Ranking up players for defeating players ranked lower than them should never happen.

      If that is the case, why would a player ever fight anyone else at all? If I'm ranked at number 100, I wouldn't ever fight anyone whose ranking is below 100; if I can't move up (even a little) from winning against them, there's no incentive. And no one who is ranked higher would fight me, for the same reason I wouldn't fight someone below myself. You've eliminated anyone's reason to fight anyone else.

      The original poster's idea is the correct one. You just have to tweak the numbers to reduce the incentive to grief.

      --
      ... and that's when the C.H.U.D.'s came at me.
    16. Re:Cannot be balanced nor fair by Mister+Whirly · · Score: 2, Funny

      And that man was LEEEROY JENKINNNSSS!!!



      (lower case text added to defeat caps filter)

      --
      "But this one goes to 11!"
    17. Re:Cannot be balanced nor fair by Chyeld · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, you still don't account for the fact that for a 'noob' one point is still going to be a lot to lose.

      In the perfect world, once the 'power gap' is great enough, the system should revert to a 'no lose' situation for the 'noob'. If the bigger player wants to risk their points, that's up to them. Maybe they want to help teach newcomers. In that case, no points should be exchanged at all.

      Chess is a completely different ecosystem than video games. In Chess, your ranking follows you around, in video games, you can always wipe and start a new account. In Chess, it's fairly simple to pound out a huge number of "noob farm" games. In Chess, even a rookie player is going to eat far more time than your normal video game round, much less the abbreivated "LOL, Zerg Rush... kekekek" rounds.

    18. Re:Cannot be balanced nor fair by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Technically, you may not be a troll. But you are an asshole.

    19. Re:Cannot be balanced nor fair by iainl · · Score: 1

      Which would be lovely, if the game didn't keep matching my 0BP rubbishness up against people with several thousand; seriously, the lowest BP score I've met since buying SFIV at the weekend was still over the 1000 mark.

      I know I'm crap, but having my arse kicked by people who have played Street Fighter before is getting a bit dull.

      --
      "I Know You Are But What Am I?"
    20. Re:Cannot be balanced nor fair by Sigma+7 · · Score: 1

      If I'm ranked at number 100, I wouldn't ever fight anyone whose ranking is below 100; if I can't move up (even a little) from winning against them, there's no incentive

      Quick fix: you need to be "active" in order to be ranked. You may be the best Chess player in the world, but if you aren't around, then it's presumed that you've retired or are no longer in the game. This forces you to play the occasional game in order to maintain your rank; you can either play against a low-ranking player (and become bored doing so), or risk a rank that would otherwise become invisible from inactivity.

    21. Re:Cannot be balanced nor fair by sortius_nod · · Score: 1

      May I cross the bridge mr troll?

    22. Re:Cannot be balanced nor fair by protodevilin · · Score: 1

      The only way you can solve this problem is to train harder than they do. I spend roughly 85% of my play-time in SFIV in unranked Player Matches; that's where you're gonna run into some real pros. Play against them repeatedly, and you'll soon become skilled enough to contend.

      Remember, it's the defeats--not the victories--that make you stronger. ;)

    23. Re:Cannot be balanced nor fair by AP31R0N · · Score: 1

      Here's another option:

      Shallow or No Power Curve. Instead of being slaves to the corpse of Gary Gygax, we could make games without power curves that create n00bstomping. In PlanetSide for instance, a day old character and a five year character have the same health, armor and weapons. The veteran character will have more versatility, but it won't be able to instgib with impunity.

      --
      Utilizing the synergization of benchmark e-solutions to pre-workaround action items!
    24. Re:Cannot be balanced nor fair by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thus if you want to be #1 you need to be gaining points faster than the current #1 and so you won't grief.

      #A= 1,000
      #B= 910

      #B player creates a new account "#Z", #Z beats #A 1 in ten times, making #A lose a large number of points (say 100) for losing to a "newbie" after gaining only 9 points from 9 wins.

      Final rankings:
      #1 = #B with 910
      #2 = #A with 909
      #3 = #Z with 91

        #2's real player ratign now exceeds the old #1's.

    25. Re:Cannot be balanced nor fair by murdocj · · Score: 1

      Well, in WoW there's a limit... if a player is a certain # of levels below another, you don't gain any honor for killing them.

  9. Counter Strike by fredc97 · · Score: 1

    Here's a game that from the start of the game tries to balance things: you can pick a skin but your character will not be any faster or stronger than any other. Same thing goes for the weapon, the only differences are the map layout and the different team objectives, these are asymetric. And the skill levels of each player will give you an edge after each winning round thus promoting the best/luckiest players.

    A game could be balanced, like some Quake III maps where each side is a mirror image of the other side and if you play these deathmatch on a 1 on 1 then it is fairly balanced. But who plays Quake 3 these days?

    1. Re:Counter Strike by sgbett · · Score: 1

      Hi! (admittedly its actually openarena, dunno where my CD is ...)

      --
      Invaders must die
    2. Re:Counter Strike by DudemanX · · Score: 1

      Lots of people still play Quake 3. These days it's called Quake Live though.

    3. Re:Counter Strike by Kelbear · · Score: 1

      The principle equalizer in Counterstrike isn't any of those things. It's the headshot.

      When it comes down to exchange of one bullet against another between one player and the next, the headshot trumps everything except perhaps sheer numbers.

      They can have any gun they want, all the money, be on the winning team, but if you still have bullets and line-of-sight, you have a fighting chance to kill the opponent in a split second...if you're good enough. In many games, weapons take time to deal damage, and players gradually wear each other down. With headshots, if the player is able to focus the skill enough, he is in control of a "critical strike" to end everything then and there. As long as they don't outnumber you simultaneously (i.e more headshots than your gun can produce before you're killed), you've still got a chance to recover and win any encounter.

    4. Re:Counter Strike by ThatGuyJon · · Score: 1

      Quake Live is out. It has the same Quake III maps. Everybody is finding them fun again.

      --
      I must be new here...
  10. Battlefield Heroes by DaveDerrick · · Score: 1

    Battlefield Heroes is going to have player balancing, but I wasn't lucky enough to get a beta key :( Hope it works well, as I'm fed up with having my ass handed to me by a 12YO.

  11. I don't understand the point. by wayward_bruce · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Video games are subject to a number of balance issues from which traditional games have largely stayed free. It can be hard finding players of comparable skill-level to create even match-ups, [...]

    Author obviously never played basketball with his friends.

    [...] diverse gameplay options can quickly become irrelevant if someone finds a broken feature that beats everything else [...]

    You mean this?

    [...] and some online games make your ability to play competitively a question of how much time and money you've invested in a game, rather than the skill you possess.

    Time spent training is a large factor, if not the largest, in attaining a high level of skill. Good equipment helps in real-life games and sports, too. Some even insist that shell and slate stones make them play better go. Go figure. :)

    1. Re:I don't understand the point. by BigCow · · Score: 1

      Time spent training is a large factor, if not the largest, in attaining a high level of skill. Good equipment helps in real-life games and sports, too. Some even insist that shell and slate stones make them play better go. Go figure. :)

      Right, but the article is referring to games in which the time spent on the game is a direct factor in how powerful your character is in the game, by a process of leveling up. Obviously you get better at all games as you play them more, but some games make your avatar explicitly more powerful the more you play, so that time spent translates into both improvements in skill and advantages the game hands you for grinding your skills for hours.

  12. Natural Selection by plams · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Natural Selection had success in balancing itself by inviting diversity among its players. The marine team has chain of command - it allows less experienced players to be effective by following orders. On the alien team every player is equal. Both teams need strategic thinkers and good shooters. It leads to a enjoyable game for a larger spread of personality and experience level compared to, say, Counterstrike.

    1. Re:Natural Selection by locallyunscene · · Score: 1

      I'll agree to this. I also like how the game had two completely different races in almost every aspect.

    2. Re:Natural Selection by ActionJesus · · Score: 1

      Ive played NS quite a bit, and while it works in theory, several things can completely knacker a game: the most obvious of which is getting a noob commander in the comm chair. By the time people have realised the commander sucks and voted him out, its often too late for marines to recover.

      Also, your argument only really works for NS_ maps: CO_ maps are horribly, horribly unbalanced, and unless the marines can get an early game spawncamp set up, aliens will pretty much always win. I realise that co_ maps arent "proper" NS, but theyre still popular: sometimes you just dont want to play a game that lasts ~2 hours.

    3. Re:Natural Selection by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      NS is the dope nasty, i love this game!

  13. Don't make the point reward system static by drtwo · · Score: 1

    I prefer games with an appearantly random point reward system so there's no best pattern to look for and abuse. At first it might a bit annoying to get much less points than the last time you did the exactly the same thing but soon enough you'll stop worrying and fully concentrate on the game without caring about your rank. And that's the best gaming experience you can have.

    1. Re:Don't make the point reward system static by internerdj · · Score: 1

      There are plenty of gamers that look for understandable rules, if rewards are random then it isn't fun because that means we can't learn the rules.

      I prefer games with a static point reward system. At first it might get a bit annoying that you are killed by people who have been playing longer but soon enough you will learn the rule system and learn to balance your character appropriately through careful planning. And that's the best gaming experience you can have.

      Or it could be that there are multiple types of gamers who get rewarded by different aspects of a game. For the widest adoption possible, you have to cater to each reward type. However, you could take the approach of targeting a specific game motivation and do well with a targeted game. What that doesn't mean (even if you do well in market) is there is a "best" reward system for games.

    2. Re:Don't make the point reward system static by drtwo · · Score: 1

      So you're basing you character on the fastest way to level instead of creating a character you like? I'd like to take thesixtyone.com as an example here. None of the listeners has a clue how the reward system exactly works so you end up bumping tracks purely on how much you like them. You don't worry if it's a smart investment because there's no way of predicting. The music is the only thing you have to pay attention to. Perhaps such a system only works with sites/games dedicated to a single subject, like music but it's interesting nonetheless.

    3. Re:Don't make the point reward system static by internerdj · · Score: 1

      That isn't always how I play but yes it can be extremely fun to tailor a character to be as powerful as the rules allow. Alternately but related, I have found great fun trying to find the balance in making the weakest character possible that is still functional. Other times I have had great fun in making the character after a concept and see if it works out. Other times I have great fun finding the best rewards in the game regardless of my build. Sometimes it is fun to see if I can do something that is nearly impossible with the rules. Random rewards or mechanics get in the way of some of these and definitely would get in the way of competitive players that are the bread and butter of consoles right now. Reward theory is something that definitely should take a lot of thought when you make a game; don't assume just because it is fun for you it will be fun for everyone. Truly the most fun games for me are the ones that give me an opportunity to exercise many different reward motivators and choose the one that fits my mood.

  14. Mario Kart Wii online by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Besides the automatic handicap system as explained in TFA, Mario Kart Wii has IMHO a very nice scoring system for online races. The system tries to pit you against other players with somewhat the same score, all though this does not always seem to work (it sometimes takes some races until you've formed a group of equally skilled racers). The amount of points you are awarded (or subtracted) at the end of the race depends on your race result and score of all players: If you have a lot more points than the other players (+/- 1000), then you have to finish 1st in order to win a few points, anything less, you'll end up with a severe penalty in points. On the other hand when you beat some players with more points than you are awarded a bunch of points while some other player that finished ahead of you, might get a score penalty. In my opinion the scoring system is one of the nicest I have experienced, with respect to keeping a balanced experience for casual and hardcore gamers.

  15. I tell my kids by m0s3m8n · · Score: 2, Insightful

    At least once a week I tell my nine year old twins "the world is not fair". Seems appropriate here.

    --
    Conservative, mod down for violating /. political norms.
    1. Re:I tell my kids by xenolion · · Score: 1, Insightful

      dang you posted it before me. In real life you will always find someone who is better at doing something than you, games are no different. The word "fair" is just a way to complain about something.

  16. Balance is key to multiplayer game success by Opportunist · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Many games offer a seemingly large freedom when creating your character, playset or play style, but eventually you find out that only a very narrowly defined path leads to success. Take WoW. You can, in theory, create almost limitless variants of skill point distribution, yet only a handful "work". For some classes, it's basically set in stone that you have this or that distribution, depending on whether you want to go against other players or some large raid encounter.

    In other games, too, you are limited to a narrow set of viable choices. TFA uses beat 'em ups as an example where you can only pick a handful, or even only one, character to succeed, the others being basically fluff.

    It's also not really "balanced" when you're basically forced to play by a certain strategy because all the others simply do not work. If you play an MMO and your class excels in mezzing, it ruins your class if mezzing is simply unnecessary, no matter how much you excel in it. Instead, you have to rely on your other spells which are maybe (in the end, when the devs heard enough whining and don't want to "break" the game for the others and make mezzing important) even as strong as the ones of another class, yet an important part of your character, maybe the reason why you chose it in the first place, becomes completely obsolete.

    This can actually break a game. For a player, or for all.

    Imagine an MMO where healing becomes obsolete because items became so powerful that nothing (short of a player wielded weapon) can harm a tank. Dedicated healer classes would certainly feel unbalanced and "useless". Now, instead of making healers important again, they're giving a boost to their damage spell lines and are told to behave like offensive casters. That's not what I made. I made a healer. If I wanted a damage caster, I would have made one.

    Thus "balancing" a game may actually ruin it, when it is done without first considering what the player actually wants...

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    1. Re:Balance is key to multiplayer game success by jgtg32a · · Score: 1

      Let me guess you play a Priest?

    2. Re:Balance is key to multiplayer game success by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      playED. Past tense.

      Add that the game became trivially easy, with AoE taunts for tanks and "spam-this-til-you-drop" healing routines, and the damagemeter being the only measure to any other classes' value (Stun? Mez? CC? Whazzat? Some new drop?), and you have the perfect mix if you want me to leave your game.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    3. Re:Balance is key to multiplayer game success by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      If you play an MMO and your class excels in mezzing, it ruins your class if mezzing is simply unnecessary, no matter how much you excel in it. Instead, you have to rely on your other spells which are maybe (in the end, when the devs heard enough whining and don't want to "break" the game for the others and make mezzing important) even as strong as the ones of another class, yet an important part of your character, maybe the reason why you chose it in the first place, becomes completely obsolete.

      Sounds like Mesmers in Guild Wars PvE :)
      They tear stuff up in PvP though (which I don't play. :P )

    4. Re:Balance is key to multiplayer game success by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      That can be actually fine if, and only if, this can be known by the player before starting the game.

      Infiltrators in DAoC were known to perform rather poorly in PvE but they were the maybe single most deadly class in PvP. They were also announced as such and Infis got used to it. You didn't want to play PvP mostly, you didn't make an Infi. Case closed.

      What irks me is when a character class gets redefined in the middle of the game. When either your class gets "revamped" to become something it was never meant to be. Two things can create such a change.

      First, when the class defining skill (most of the time some CC ability, pets or buf/debuf abilities) are found out to be use- or pointless and the devs don't want to break the gameplay for the other classes by actually making this one class "useful" (it would break because being weak, it's hardly played and turning it from obsolete to success critical would kill the game for many because almost no high level chars of this class would exist). So instead of making the class defining skill useful they beef up other aspects of the class, whatever secondary ability they had becomes primary. Most of the time that pretty much means that this class is now the twin of another class (this is especially true in MMOs with many character classes) and people from two classes are now bitching that they're effectively competing for the same slot in a party.

      The other change can be that a class becomes obsolete over time. When a class can generate hp/mana/power for others (essentially being a live mana battery), they can become obsolete when equipment comes along that offers the same effect. Instead of the hp/mana battery, people would of course rather take someone along that can offer more firepower or more defensive capability. Again, this results most of the time in a change in the class rather than toning down the equipment to make the class whose ability was usurped by the new equipment useful in its original party position again. It's simply easier.

      Bottom line, usually, that classes that are or become obsolete are turned into yet another DD. And that solution makes nobody really happy. First, the people playing the class, because they started the class as a mezzer, healer, (de)buffer or petmaster because they didn't want to play a DD. If I want to play a DD, I play a DD. If I start playing a healer because I want to be a healer, it kinda irks me when I'm told that my healing is no longer useful and I should become a DD now.

      And of course the DDs are groaning, knowing they are already the largest group, already have it hardest to find a party and now have an influx of yet even more people to compete with.

      So why the hell is this the usual way this is done?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    5. Re:Balance is key to multiplayer game success by lhoguin · · Score: 1

      Imagine an MMO where healing becomes obsolete because items became so powerful that nothing (short of a player wielded weapon) can harm a tank. Dedicated healer classes would certainly feel unbalanced and "useless". Now, instead of making healers important again, they're giving a boost to their damage spell lines and are told to behave like offensive casters. That's not what I made. I made a healer. If I wanted a damage caster, I would have made one.

      That's basically what happened on Phantasy Star Universe (one of the worst balanced game I ever saw, by the way). The healer class became completely obsolete because healing items were cheap, the missions short and it's fairly easy to avoid getting damage. Then they reduced the price of the healing items. With such a cheap price and the fact that the items are instantaneous compared to the delay caused by the reaction time + the healing animation, healing spells became useless. Their buffs are only slightly better than buff items, making having one of these in your party a waste of place. To compensate they boosted a bit the attacks of this class, but even with that they're far from being as efficient as melee or ranged. And few people wants one in their party. The GMs had to go as far as requiring a healer in each party for their events, to make things "fair" for everyone.

      And well, I'm not even talking about how much they broke the game with the melee changes...

    6. Re:Balance is key to multiplayer game success by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Ok, this is simply braindead. Affirmative action is something I may consider in real life, but in a game it is just simply and plainly screwed up. When the reason to exist of a class is reduced to the other players being literally forced to take you along, it doesn't really endear you to them.

      What does a LFG for a healer look like? "LF Healer. Needn't do anything, we know you're crap, but we gotta take you along. Sit in the corner and look pretty and for god's sake, don't touch anything!"

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    7. Re:Balance is key to multiplayer game success by jgtg32a · · Score: 1

      But I was right, it was a priest?

    8. Re:Balance is key to multiplayer game success by mkiwi · · Score: 1

      I quit playing WoW during the first expansion. I was a restoration druid, which was great when the game started, but other classes (paladin) got upgrades so that people had a natural bias to prefer them.

      The other problem was that there was no gear to be had for restoration druids. Compared to the stuff a priest or paladin could get, it became a seriously neglected class. Try finding a socketed leather item with high-level bonuses... not much there.
      In terms of leather vs cloth, Priests have spells to make up for the fact that they use cloth. If a druid used cloth, they were basically dead.

      I didn't feel very guilty about making the peon cry when I terminated my subscription.

    9. Re:Balance is key to multiplayer game success by Creepy · · Score: 1

      You obviously haven't played high end PvE in Guild Wars - Mesmers are the easiest way to find parties in the Deep, Urgoz's lair (though Monk is good there, too, which is what I've run there), and for a long time Slaver's Exile, but that has shifted more to 3/4 man Assassin and Ranger groups. I actually don't play much high end, but I'm in a guild with people that do and they talk about it incessantly (and I do listen in on our ventrilo channel quite a bit, even though most of my gaming time is dedicated to Empire: Total War and Fallout 3).

      In fact, the three classes that most people consider the worst for PvE (Assassins, Mesmers, and Paragons) are in the most demand in high end PvE - Assassins for permaform (permanent shadowform which is immunity to all damage), Mesmers for Cry of Pain spamming (armor ignoring, interrupting damage), and paragons for massive armor and damage reduction buffs (in fact, many people in my guild still consider Imbagon the only good Paragon build).

    10. Re:Balance is key to multiplayer game success by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Yes. I quitted the first time before the first expansion was out, even back then it was basically a fairly skill-less game. When I returned to see what I described above, it made me requit almost immediately.

      I still weep for the days of "old school" DAoC and AO.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    11. Re:Balance is key to multiplayer game success by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      You obviously haven't played high end PvE in Guild Wars - Mesmers are the easiest way to find parties in the Deep, Urgoz's lair (though Monk is good there, too, which is what I've run there), and for a long time Slaver's Exile, but that has shifted more to 3/4 man Assassin and Ranger groups.

      Not as my Mesmer, no. I should be clearing Frost Gate with her this weekend (Made her to play GW with my girlfriend who is a complete MMO newbie, so we have to do prophesies... I hate prophesies).

      But what use to mesmers have in high end, besides the current flavor of the month (i.e. Cryway?) I'd like to know because Lindsey has gone a bit mad with the nerfbat the past few months (apparently she dislikes the idea of secondary classes being useful?)

      I actually don't play much high end, but I'm in a guild with people that do and they talk about it incessantly (and I do listen in on our ventrilo channel quite a bit, even though most of my gaming time is dedicated to Empire: Total War and Fallout 3).

      In fact, the three classes that most people consider the worst for PvE (Assassins, Mesmers, and Paragons) are in the most demand in high end PvE - Assassins for permaform (permanent shadowform which is immunity to all damage), Mesmers for Cry of Pain spamming (armor ignoring, interrupting damage), and paragons for massive armor and damage reduction buffs (in fact, many people in my guild still consider Imbagon the only good Paragon build).

      My guild has recently gotten bitten by the Paraway bug. It's fun, I'll admit. I've been a Perma since back when you had to use A/Me for it, but I find that I can CoP just fine on my ranger, since it's a Sunspear skill and she's r10.

      But all of those *are* bad for actual non-gimmick PvE (as in, playing through the game, not just clearing UW for ectos or whatever).

      Sins weren't, if you weren't a moron, until they went crazy with the nerfbat (Crit Agility has to be the best Sunspear skill in the game. I love it love it love it.) because of PvP "balance."

      Paragons can be a decent buffbot, but that gets mighty boring H/Hing all the way through NF.

      And Mesmers are all about shutdown, which doesn't help in HM when you're facing mobs of 10-20 with way more energy than they could ever hope to use, so at best, they're ok interrupters (or awesome interrupters, with an Me hero.) or Cryers, which only requires a mesmer secondary and a high sunspear rank. In PvE, they are like Ritualists: Anything they can do can be done better by another class taking /Me (or /Rt) as a secondary.

    12. Re:Balance is key to multiplayer game success by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      *cough*Ultima Online*cough*

      (not at first obviously, but currently this is more or less what happened, when EA decided to release expansions to turn it into WOW 2.0, except with UUBER items)

    13. Re:Balance is key to multiplayer game success by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "If a druid used cloth, they were basically dead."
      Well, this shouldn't matter in PvE, and if you're seriously complaining about PvP, in BC, as a Druid, then you should just stop playing video games.

    14. Re:Balance is key to multiplayer game success by Creepy · · Score: 1

      Actually, it's the Guild Wars Live Team with the nerf bat (Linsey is only one member of that), so you can't blame her for everything - it's not like the Izzy days. I still am waiting for them to make skills like Magnetic Aura and Swirling Aura useful (Magnetic is used in raptor baby farming sometimes, but generally it's awful), but I don't think it'll ever happen. Even my 'in' to ANet isn't much help since he won't talk shop unless we're discussing shader tech (which we do occasionally).

      Pretty much all builds run on Mesmer are Cryway based these days, with Visions of Regret, Ineptitude, or Mantra of Recovery as the elite. Real mesmers tend to be preferred because they can fast cast the hex and have more utility skills, but yes, you do see some others standing in as criers. A Visions of Regret mesmer with Sabway (a bunch of necros) can rip through most areas of PvE in HM.

          Sins were heavily nerfed before the PvE/PvP skill split because they destroyed casters in PvP and could even drop warriors. They completely misbalanced Randoms and AB for a while, and could quickly down the Guild Lord as well (so were popular solo or duo gankers in HA and GvG, which kinda defeats the word [ganker = gang killer]).

         

    15. Re:Balance is key to multiplayer game success by murdocj · · Score: 1

      . Take WoW. You can, in theory, create almost limitless variants of skill point distribution, yet only a handful "work". For some classes, it's basically set in stone that you have this or that distribution, depending on whether you want to go against other players or some large raid encounter.

      Yes, and no. It's true that my WoW priest wants to be a healer so he's heavily invested in the holy tree. But I haven't taken some talents that other people consider important, based on how I play and what I know I'll use. What I end up with isn't "optimal", but it's optimal for me

    16. Re:Balance is key to multiplayer game success by murdocj · · Score: 1

      This just goes to show that every class considers the game to be imbalanced against them. I remember when resto druids got buffed. Basically they became the "uber healer" class, and as a priest it was pretty annoying. Not to mention the versatility of the druid. As I recall the priests I talked to were wondering if they would ever get into a raid again.

      But it all worked out in the end... I'm still a priest, still healing.

  17. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  18. Team balance as well, it could be so simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Finding a matching opponent for 1on1 matches, yes, I can see how that is tricky since it requires at central DB which stores that. But any team game which goes on for more than one round would in theory have at least the stats of the previous round available and when moving on to the next map the teams should be filled not by random chance but so that the top ranking players of the previous match are evenly distributed.

    I have not yet seen something that simple and obvious implemented. If I had time I would write a mod for the game where this annoys me the most at the moment, but alas, I just leave annoyed when winning is too easy/hard and I can't switch teams to make it a bit fairer. Game devs, forget ever better graphics for a while and think about a better in game mechanics and interface issues more!

  19. What "Skill" Really Means by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Okay, I'm sorry, but people throw around the word "skill" as though it is some special property that people either have or do not.

    In fact, skill is the totality of what you need to be able to do to compete. In Darwinist terms, it is synonymous with fitness. Fitness, as a term, does not specify exactly what makes one fit; this is specific to each individual case, and is derived directly and in all cases from the conditions.

    There are several methods by which one develops "skill", and they might or might not apply to a give game.

    1. Skill is representative of reflexes. This is rare for most games; it usually is only true when the game is new and no-one really knows anything about it. In these cases, reflexes appear to be the same as skill because they represent an advantage that only one player possesses. Over time, other advantages usually develop to the point where reflexes alone do not represent (much of) an advantage by itself (but is a considerable edge for those who possess other advantages).

    2. Skill is representative of time. This is the most common, because almost all humans are capable of both learning and adapting, and so in most cases practice results in elevated mastery. In almost every game, time spend playing is the single biggest advantage that one can have.

    3. Skill is representative of money. This mostly used to apply in the days of coin-op arcade games, and is more of a derived skill representation as it enhances the advantage of reflexes by limiting the possibility of time. Those with money could get time to develop their reflexes; those without money had no time to practice and could get no advantage over reflexes alone. Money as a representation of skill is however making a comeback, with paid-for exclusive downloadable content starting to represent real advantages such as better weapons or earlier access to new maps.

    4. Skill is representative of knowledge/intelligence. This is in many ways derived from time, but also somewhat independent of it insofar as an individual's natural pattern-matching and information processing and memory potential is concerned. This allows one to discover and or apply complex strategies or unusual rules to a competition, in their own favor. This is in many ways diluted over time, as information becomes disseminated.

    Most games represent several values; Fighters and shooters represent skill mostly as Reflexes in the early days, but mostly Time at later stages of it's lifetime (some fighters can also significantly represent skill as knowledge/intelligence where long combo chains and complex moves are particularly important, or detailed knowledge of spawn times and map layouts). MMOs mostly represent skill as Time, but also Money (to varying degrees depending on many factors, and usually mostly in the early days). RPGs usually represent skill as Time and also in many cases significantly represent skill as knowledge/intelligence; on the other hand, Reflexes typically mean nothing at all. And so on. Other classes of advantages representative of skill exists, but are minor and mostly derived from the above.

    Sorry to all of the elitists who decry modern games as overflowing with noobs who can't press buttons fast enough/aim their mouse precise enough, but "skill" doesn't just mean that. Almost all advantages come back mostly to time, and all are - in principle - subservient to it. If you say that you're skilled at a game, but don't really mean that you've simply played it a lot, then what you're really saying is that your advantage is likely to be temporary, unless you put time in.

    1. Re:What "Skill" Really Means by sulliwan · · Score: 1

      This is absolutely correct. The vast majority of player skill is based simply on the time put in to practice, nothing else. Top players simply have the work ethic and dedication required to excel. Also, they know how to learn and practice in order to get maximum benefit from it. They don't simply play the game to have fun, they play to improve themselves in the game. This in turn makes the game MORE fun, not less. Most games worth anything become very intricate and complicated at the top level and being able to play at that level is simply more fun. And this is why most handicap systems are bad for a game. If there is no incentive to improve yourself, the game can never reach it's full potential. This is also the reason why fiddling with the rules all the time is bad. If an overpowered strategy develops, it is usually better to wait for the gamers to find solutions to it, advancing the game, rather than just ban it because of the people, who aren't even trying to figure it out, whining.

    2. Re:What "Skill" Really Means by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Interesting, but bullshit.

      Does this mean I have an unhealthy obsession?

    3. Re:What "Skill" Really Means by locallyunscene · · Score: 1

      While I appreciate the Sirlin paraphrasing you're doing, I don't entirely agree with letting OP strats run rampant. Sure competitive players may be able to find a solution, but that doesn't mean that solution is available or practical at a casual level of play. If a game is broken at a level of play newbie, competitive, or casual, it is still broken, and that will cost the developer players.

    4. Re:What "Skill" Really Means by brkello · · Score: 1

      I think the "time" argument works more for MMOs than FPS's. At some point, time between two people becomes irrelevant, both people have played so much that they have seen it all or enough to be considered equal. At that point it goes back to who has better reflexes and had a better shot.

      I have always had fairly decent reflexes and can pretty much hop in to any FPS and by the end of the day be top on the server. I haven't put in the time others have, but I still can beat them. So I think your definition of skill is just theoretical ramblings rather than being true in the practical or general sense.

      --
      Support a great indie game: http://www.abaddon360.com
    5. Re:What "Skill" Really Means by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I so agree. WoW (WotLK) is overrun with players who think of gaming as #1. In catering to that market segment, I think they are going to lose a lot of the broader market. WotLK is disappointing on so many levels I am going to try EVE.

    6. Re:What "Skill" Really Means by Draek · · Score: 2, Interesting

      2. Skill is representative of time. This is the most common, because almost all humans are capable of both learning and adapting, and so in most cases practice results in elevated mastery. In almost every game, time spend playing is the single biggest advantage that one can have.

      Wrong. Because all humans are capable of learning and adapting, practice on competitive games only gives you a temporary edge against newbies, nothing more.

      My personal take on it is the old adage, "know yourself, know your enemy and you shall have a thousand victories", and the most common mistake by unskilled players is assuming either is constant. On TF2 for instance, playing as engineer requires not only knowledge of the map itself (which is a factor of playing time), but also knowing where to place sentry guns which, unlike what the unskilled player thinks, isn't fixed but dependant on the strategies applied by the opposing team, and even of yours as well.

      That's why in single-player games (and to a large extent, cooperative games such as WoW) time *is* such a big factor, because the opposing AI usually has only a few strategies and reactions that are almost exclusively deterministic, so practice not only gives you an edge on knowing the map and weapons, but also your enemy which is impossible to do against real, skilled humans.

      --
      No problem is insoluble in all conceivable circumstances.
    7. Re:What "Skill" Really Means by Arterion · · Score: 1

      Money can also play a part in having a faster computer or faster internet connection, which can be a very significant advantage in computer games.

      --
      "That which does not kill us makes us stranger." -Trevor Goodchild
  20. Its a thing of the past? by Viol8 · · Score: 4, Funny

    What , you mean we should go back to the complex narrative of Pacmac for example? :)

    1. Re:Its a thing of the past? by Viol8 · · Score: 1

      *sigh* Or even Pacman. If only typos could be made a thing of the past too...

  21. Bad title. by Steauengeglase · · Score: 1

    Wow, I really have been programmed. As soon as I read "Fairness and Balance" I began wondering about liberal indoctrination.

    I think it would also explain why I'm compelled to scream, "someday you will realize who your god really is" every time someone says the word China. Now I have this urge to buy a sniper rifle.

    1. Re:Bad title. by genner · · Score: 1

      Now I have this urge to buy a sniper rifle.

      Stupid AWP is soo overpowered.

  22. Sameness is definitely spreading. by Shivetya · · Score: 1

    World of Warcraft underwent this with the new expansion. Nearly every class now duplicates each other with mostly flavor changes. Under their mantra of "bring the player not the class" they have excused themselves from having to balance unique class abilities by simply making them all have the same end result if not mechanics.

    What should we expect? Schools are dumbing down education for lackluster students and teachers, why not extend it to games? Fairness is the new buzzword for "your playing with people who suck"

    --
    * Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
    1. Re:Sameness is definitely spreading. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Schools are dumbing down education [...] "your playing with people who suck"

      .... Must.... resist... urge to ... point out ... irony!

    2. Re:Sameness is definitely spreading. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      World of Warcraft also has some of the worst class balance the MMO world has seen. Pretty much, you play one of two classes that actually is able to PvP decently, or you play a class that is their prison bitch. PvE, they have their act together, but PvP, to do more than just get faceplanted, you pretty much are forced to play a certain class.

  23. Just video games? by YourExperiment · · Score: 1

    I don't understand why the author thinks these issues are specific to video games.

    It can be hard finding players of comparable skill-level to create even match-ups

    ...like it can be with any face-to-face game. In fact, video games make this vastly easier by allowing you to play with anyone across the world, instead of being limited to the set of people who can physically hook up with you.

    diverse gameplay options can quickly become irrelevant if someone finds a broken feature that beats everything else

    ...just like in any board game, where one of the primary design trade-offs is to balance the various options available to the players, such that a variety of different strategies become viable, without any one strategy being a no-brainer.

    some online games make your ability to play competitively a question of how much time and money you've invested in a game, rather than the skill you possess

    ...just like Magic the Gathering, or any other collectible card game, where the amount of money you have spent on your deck directly influences the options available to you in-game.

    1. Re:Just video games? by tlhIngan · · Score: 1

      some online games make your ability to play competitively a question of how much time and money you've invested in a game, rather than the skill you possess

      ...just like Magic the Gathering, or any other collectible card game, where the amount of money you have spent on your deck directly influences the options available to you in-game.

      Which is why I don't ever get the rule against proxy cards - proxy cards level the playing field because those who can't afford the best, can still use the best. The rare expensive cards are still rare and expensive, but now they're only worth it for the collectible part, not the fact you can use it ot decimate your opponent in the first couple of hands. Takes money out of the equation and puts it back into skill...

      It makes for an interesting thing into Eye of Judgement, for the "online deck" is based on using the camera to scan all the same cards at once. People have found out that you can easily copy a good card, and "prove" to the game that you have multiples and thus turn a proxy into a "real" card. The other thing is I haven't found a torrent where all the cards have been scanned so you could make an online deck from every card in the game. (It's using a webcam so the parts the camera is interested in is effectively a low-res barcode).

  24. Disconnecting by MadMoses · · Score: 1

    Seriously what's it with the disconnecting after a lost game?

    It happens in 90% of my Street Fighter IV games on PSN. Even if those guys played and won multiple games in a row against me, most disconnect after only one lost game, some even after one lost round.

    Do these people have no balls? Pathetic.

    --

    Do not be alarmed. This is only a test.
    1. Re:Disconnecting by genner · · Score: 1

      Seriously what's it with the disconnecting after a lost game?

      It happens in 90% of my Street Fighter IV games on PSN. Even if those guys played and won multiple games in a row against me, most disconnect after only one lost game, some even after one lost round.

      Do these people have no balls? Pathetic.

      I get this all the time too. People only seem to care about their rank.

    2. Re:Disconnecting by MadMoses · · Score: 1

      Then why do they do it in "Player Matches" (these are non-ranked, correct me if I'm wrong)?

      --

      Do not be alarmed. This is only a test.
    3. Re:Disconnecting by genner · · Score: 1

      Then why do they do it in "Player Matches" (these are non-ranked, correct me if I'm wrong)?

      If people disconnect from non-ranked matches I just assume they're sick of loosing to me.

    4. Re:Disconnecting by Draek · · Score: 1

      Perhaps they're trying to simulate the arcade experience, where no matters how many wins you had, if you lost even once you had to insert another quarter and most people took that as a "you've been here way too much, kiddo, go home" reminder :)

      --
      No problem is insoluble in all conceivable circumstances.
  25. Playing to win by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I have recently read a book called Playing to Win (available for free on the author's site), which makes a lot of interesting points on fairness and balance. A lot of the points made in this discussion are also mentioned in that book.

    Personally I disagreed with many of the author's points but it was still a very interesting read. It's not a very long book, it can easily be read in a single sitting.

    The author is David Sirlin, who used to be a pro player in several Street Fighter games, and has also worked (is still working?) as a game designer for Capcom. He doesn't just discuss Street Fighter though, but also RTS games like Starcraft, FPSs like Counter-Strike, as well as traditional games like chess and go.

  26. QQ More Noob! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This thread = epic fail

    If somebody cheats in a game, that is one thing, but if you flat out suck at a game, why should us people that are good at it have to play a crappy nerfed version because you QQ'ed until the devs dumbed it down.

    Getting beat in a game all the time does not mean inbalance, it just means you suck at that game. Sure, there are glitches here and there, but if you get pwned by everybody, that means it is not an inbalance, and that you just suck.

    I, personally, like playing people who are way better than me. There is no way you will ever get better at the game if you play people of your skill level.

    You need to play people way better than you, get pwned every way from sunday, figure out how to beat them, and then destroy them. That is getting better at a game.

    Man, you noobs need to learn a noobs place.
    Don't QQ about sucking at a game through slashdot, learn to play, and then come back and challenge me.

    Until then, even on slashdot, you will only be seen as a noob who does too much QQ and not enough pew pew.

    Now go practice up before I pwn you again noob

  27. Fair and balanced? by mcgrew · · Score: 1

    The Fox is in the henhouse?

    Golf (a game I hate, thanks to working at a golf course as a teenager), has an easy answer - handicapping.

    Back when I played Quake (yeah, I'm old, shut up, kid) online the problem was LPBs - Low Ping Bastards. If you were on dialup playing against someone with DSL or a T-1, you had no chance.

    I got around this by what some may consider cheating - the use of varying skins. Now, there was a one-pixel skin (Called the "invisible man" IIRC) that I refused to use, because it was cheating, no doubt.

    My three favorite skins that evened the odds against LPBs (not to mention players more skilled than me, and there were a lot) were first, the PC Gamer Coconut Monkey skin. I never could figure out what was so lucky about that skin, until someone I was playing said he didn't even realise I was a player.

    Next was the Baal skin. This was a HUGE character, making it easy to hit, but hard to shoot at, because it scared the hell out of opponents. Nobody was used to seeing such a large skin and it spooked them. As soon as they saw me they'd run, even though they could have easily fragged me and my low-skill, high ping playing.

    My favorite skin, though, was the nudechick skin. This one was a naked woman, complete with nipples and pubic hair. Nobody wanted to shoot the naked lady!

    This one backfired when I ran across the PMS clan (Psycho Man Slayers), who later became online friends of mine.

    But I always advocated speed throttling, where everyone's speed was lowered to the speed of the lowest speed player. This idea was universally dismissed; nobody wanted their speed to drop.

    1. Re:Fair and balanced? by Drakkenmensch · · Score: 1

      The problem with the speed throttling to the lowest active player is that within the first week, you'll start seeing speed griefers who will willingly overload their connection with 50 active bittorrent streams in order to bring down every other player to 1 second and higher ping times. Say goodbye to playing your game with any decent kind of speed ever again!

    2. Re:Fair and balanced? by Phydaux · · Score: 1

      I used to play Quake 2 a lot, back when I had dial-up. And I know the annoyance of the LPB's ;)

      But I found a great server with some very high-skilled players, with both low and high ping. They took the time to teach me the tricks. One was simply leading your target, even with insta-hit weapons like the rail-gun, you just need to lead the lag between you.

      It's probably why I'm one of the few people on the servers of modern games who doesn't cry when someone's ping starts to reach 3 figures. I just compensate for the lag and kill them anyway.

      Speed throttling would just lead to jumpy game play as my connection speed would be constantly changing to that of the worst, this would make it much harder to play. I'd rather a constant connection than a varying one any day.

    3. Re:Fair and balanced? by Creepy · · Score: 1

      Golf (a game I hate, thanks to working at a golf course as a teenager), has an easy answer - handicapping.

      heh - you too? My first job was working a golf course with a membership fee that was about 10x what I made that summer. My memory of it was constantly getting stiffed for tips by rich geezers (and stuffy waitresses when I worked the restaurant). In fact, the only place I got tipped well was the bar, and that was only for a short time after I turned 18 (which happened just before school started - and let's just say working until 4AM on [Saturday and] Sunday and reeking of smoke and needing to leave for high school at 7AM on Monday wasn't working out for me - I barely had time to get home and shower, much less sleep, and since I was then 18 they didn't have to follow child labor laws that prohibited such shifts).

    4. Re:Fair and balanced? by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      Yes, that was the argument then, and I was won over by it then. I finally got DSL when it was available in my area, and then cable.

    5. Re:Fair and balanced? by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      You were lucky, I did hard, manual labor. Moving the holes, cutting and laying sod, sifting dirt, mowing, stuff like that. I HATED the suicide clutch on the greens mower. I decided if anybody had to work that damned hard for me to play a stupid game, I didn't want anything to do with it.

  28. The recipe is simple by tequila13 · · Score: 1

    I'm surprised that DotA didn't come up in the article. It IS the most widely played RTS currently.

    It's built using the perfect recipe for a balanced game. Millions play it, and thousands give suggestions on public forums on how to improve it. The most popular ideas usually make it into the game.

  29. two schools by DragonTHC · · Score: 1

    The old school says you play hard and work hard while you're playing. You endure thousands of defeats until you gain the skill necessary to do well.

    The new school is some 13 year old kid who plays for 9 hours a day and calls you a noob. Hence we now have things like quake-live's skill testing and Left 4 Dead's Director(who isn't always fair).

    I like the idea of the old school, and I'm old enough to be a member, but I can't play for 9 hours a day like I used to do. Skill matching is good, but may ensure you never advance your skills.

    --
    They're using their grammar skills there.
    1. Re:two schools by chadplusplus · · Score: 1

      Skill matching is good, but may ensure you never advance your skills.

      I don't think this is necessarily true. If I'm a rank of x and get matched up against players ranked x +/- y, than I will learn new tactics from watching the x+y guys. But since y is some reasonable range, I don't get slaughtered before I have a chance to learn.

      Back when I was first trying to play SOCOM, I was getting slaughtered by jump snipers before I even had a chance to learn how to aim. It was frustrating to the point of not being fun.

  30. Sports games by tehkyle · · Score: 1

    Generally, I find these to be the most highly unbalanced games. Some people like to play their sports just like they see in real life, but others just want to dominate and will do what it takes to get an edge. Often in Sports games there is too much in terms of "Trick shots" or the like. Hockey and Football especially. There are just certain plays in football that a guy will get wide open no matter how you cover him, and in hockey there are odd dekes you can do along the goal line to make the goalie go down, and do a simple wraparound and score 90% of the time.

    I think that as our programmers, and obviously games, get better we see much more parity in online play, as they tweak AI and eliminate those errors, but we aren't there yet. I believe that these games SHOULD be based on skill and time and effort put into the game, but not so much into finding the bugs and 'cheap' ways, but by getting better at strategy. We need to learn to eliminate bugs before we have ultra competitive games.

  31. Flick Fishing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I have to quit the game whenever the line snaps.

    The monster fish are supposed to be fun, but they are so hard to catch it ruins the game.

  32. Just started playing by Icegryphon · · Score: 0

    I just started playing DOA4 online, The ranking system is seriously messed up.
    If a Higher rank beats you at a lower rank they still get standard points.
    They should get deducted a few points from what they earn.
    Second, If you are a higher rank and get beat by a lower rank you get more then normal points deducted.
    I mean it is fun, But they need to try to put similiar ranked fighters in matches with Similiar ranking.
    Just my gripe going from starting at a C and jumping up and down in the E,D,and F ranks.

  33. Balace = rebalance by PietjeJantje · · Score: 1

    Back in the days of Rainbow Six (yes, and now you can get off my lawn)

    Hello youngster. Back in the days of MUD, we already learned that balance does not exist as a stable concept. Balance is rebalancing, constantly. Big games need Balance Arches or Gods, or in normal words, balance management.

  34. Re: Blacks vs Jews by GargamelSpaceman · · Score: 2, Interesting
    When a black person calls another black person a Nigga it's obvious to any non-blacks in the room that they aren't welcome to play. But if a Jew starts slinging antisemetic phrases around it's not that obvious to anyone who is a Jew and who is a non-Jew usually. It opens up endless Andy Kaufmannesque possibilities creating chaos someone like Bobby Fischer might be able to take advantage of strategically.

    Someone with the ability to play chess at top level obviously has certain mental powers that mean his actions have to be examined VERY closely before pronouncing them insane. Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic etc..

    Not that I know much about Bobby Fischer. Is he even alive? All signs point to the probability that he is/was nuttier than a fruitcake. Still, I'd have to know alot more about him to be sure.

    --
    ...
  35. Loot rules are hard to be fair with by KevMar · · Score: 1

    One interesting aspect of trying to make a game fair and balance is that rewards for beating content in large groups is left up to the groups to hand out.

    In world of warcraft you have 10 to 25 people killing bosses that give 3-4 rewards and they have to decide on a way to handle it. In theory enough items should drop over time that everyone will get the items they need. But people fight to get the best items and over time that becomes the items that everyone wants.

    Players have designed many systems of handing out loot based on various thing that they define as fair. That depends on leasdership and what their view of fair is. What is fair to the person that has been there for 2 years vs 2 months vs first time vs part time vs that one person you must have to do anything is very different. The experiences they have in real life or in game also impact that.

    Every system has its advantages and problems. Do the people that need it just random for it, do the officers decide, do you hand out points for stuff and use them to "buy" the items with, or do you just take turns. You need leadership you can trust more then anything else to make any system work. Statistacly over time peaple tend to go for the same items and all a loot system does is change the order within the group that you get those items.

    The thing is most games give the users no direction. This is good because it lets good leaders set up and run good systems that fit the group. But its also bad where people that should not be trusted are running it. Or in general where people have those differing oppinions of what is fair or what items they deserve will cause drama if left unchecked.

    In my guild I use a solid system that fits our group. I don't have to step in and make jugement calls (calls that could be questioned) becuase the rules make those calls for me. I spent alot of time making those calls ahead of time when writting the rules. It keeps me and other officers on the same page and consistant. And everyone else knows what to expect every time a possible situation comes up.

    --
    Im a gamer, not a grammer major. This post is full of spelling and grammer mistakes.
  36. Re: Blacks vs Jews by RebelWebmaster · · Score: 2, Informative

    He died a bit over a year ago.

  37. Defining Fair PvP by ifrag · · Score: 1

    Didn't RTFA (this is /. after all), but this reminds me of a list I developed defining what is not fair PvP. And if it's not fair PvP I don't really consider it PvP at all (more like bullying at that point).

    Also, since there seems to be some confusion about the definition of skill as seen in above comment, I'm using the commonly understood definition of : Proficiency, facility, or dexterity that is acquired or developed through training or experience. Experience being PLAYER experience, NOT the player's game character.

    A lot of these points are redundant, mostly just pointing out what different cases would apply to various situations.

    • If all teams are not composed of the exact same number of players it's not PvP.
    • If a player disconnects or leaves before the match can be unequivocally delcared "over", it's not PvP.
    • If any player or team has an advantage over the other team that is for any reason other than skill, it's not PvP.
    • If a player starts with an obvious net superiority in stats or level than any other player in the game it's not PvP.
    • If a player starts the match with an obvious net superiority in gear, equipment, funds, or assets when compared to other players it's not PvP.
    • If a player uses hacks, exploits, or cheats which give them any advantage over players who are not using any hacks, exploits, or cheats, then it's not PvP.
    • If any player has a handicap or multiplier applied, which is not universal across all players, it's not PvP.
    • If any teams roster is uneven due to the addition of NPC players which is not equally balanced for other teams, it's not PvP.
    • If any teams NPC players are set to a difficulty level different from another teams NPC players, it's not PvP.
    • If luck or chance has more influence on the outcome of a game than player skill, it's not PvP.
    --
    Fear is the mind killer.
    1. Re:Defining Fair PvP by LandDolphin · · Score: 1

      So, in your head PvP does not exist?

      --
      Spelling and Grammar errors have been added to this post for your enjoyment
  38. Fairness and balance doesn't exist. by MaWeiTao · · Score: 1

    You can try to make the playing field as level as possible, but eventually someone will find a way to give themselves an advantage.

    Why shouldn't a player be awarded for their superior skills? Anyone who wants to be as good as that player is welcome to practice and do all the research they can to improve themselves.

    I get my ass handed to me fairly consistently in Street Fighter 4. I expect that will probably always be the case, because I don't have the time or inclination to get good at the game. And sometimes you need to accept that you're not going to excel at certain things. Street Fighter 4 shouldn't have to accommodate me because of my poor skills.

    I don't have the time to devote to an MMO, but that doesn't mean someone shouldn't be reap the fruits of spending their entire life in the game. I never liked the attitude that some people have that they should have access to everything in the game, regardless of how little play. These people knew what they were getting into when they bought the game. If they don't want to commit to prolonged gameplay sessions they shouldn't be playing MMOs.

    I find games like Super Mario Kart intensely frustrating specifically because someone can come from behind merely because they've picked up some random powerup. It's especially in the newer versions of the game.

    When skill or experience doesn't factor much into a game what's the point of playing? At that point it's a toy, not a game. Like Noby Noby Boy, a nice toy, but not much more than that. People who find themselves challenged by other games might find themselves more comfortable playing something like that.

  39. MS Trueskill by ObiWanStevobi · · Score: 1

    The MS Trueskill system used in Halo 3 was concieved to create as fair a match as possible. On the surface the theory is very sound and the system is quite good. Unfortunately, it was ultimately broken my MS's oversights in marketing and misreading the intent of it's audience. The system is based on how "certain" it is of a persons rank. Losing games would make it more "certain" a person was that level. Meaning after a person starts breaking even in the W/L column, the system cements their rank there, and it takes long term streaks to change that value. The problem came in when gamers realized they could start a new account and rank up faster because their "certainty" varibale would begin anew with each new account. Again, not a huge problem until you realize M$ gives out one month trials of XBL like an crack dealer giving out first time free sample. The system lets he good players quickly advance and let newer players play people that are a good match for them. But with free accounts being unlimited, everyone just starts over on a new account as soon as they reach their peak, flooding the low levels with grossly mismatched games. What could have been a sound matching system was ruined by marketing.

  40. FPS rant by LordDragoon · · Score: 1

    I'm into AA, CODWaW, Combat Arms, Crossfire and other FPS online games. And my problem with them is that I cannot seem to compete on the same level with the people running $3,500.00 rigs, X-fi sound cards, Mega graphics cards running in crossfire or SLI, and all the other advantages they can afford that I cannot. I'm running a two year old rig I spent $1,000.00 on and I know I'm not getting the same resolution, frame rates and sound that they get. I would just like to see someone come up with a way to balance the equipment advantage.

    --
    Still in my pyro...still in the mines! {POF}LrdDragoon
    1. Re:FPS rant by mjwx · · Score: 1

      I'm into AA, CODWaW, Combat Arms, Crossfire and other FPS online games. And my problem with them is that I cannot seem to compete on the same level with the people running $3,500.00 rigs, X-fi sound cards, Mega graphics cards running in crossfire or SLI, and all the other advantages they can afford that I cannot. I'm running a two year old rig I spent $1,000.00 on and I know I'm not getting the same resolution, frame rates and sound that they get. I would just like to see someone come up with a way to balance the equipment advantage.

      This is a really bad excuse.

      It's your network speed that is the biggest problem. Now I live in Australia, known for it's slow backwater rip-off broadband network, my ping is significantly lower when playing against European or American but I can still manage to hold my own. my gaming rig cost A$2,000 which is only a bit more then yours (assuming USD) and is now 2 years old. I'm not the best player but I'm good enough (plus I don't feel the need to dominate or put down others, players with an inferiority complex really suck to play with), This has been the case since I started playing BF1942 over a dial-up connection on a PC built in 1999, I sucked at first but I learned and got better. I was particularly good at Vietcong multiplayer when I upgraded to 256k broadband after learning on 56k. Beyond the network connection which most broadband connections are good enough for these days, hardware doest make any difference to the skill level of the player. Understanding the game you're playing will make more of a difference then the most expensive gaming rig, look for the players who do well, follow them around in team DM/CTF and learn from them. If this doesn't help, FPS's are not your thing.

      The illusion that a rig automatically makes a player better is an illusion spread by console fanboys, a good player on a bad rig is still a good player, a bad player on a good rig is still a bad player.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
  41. Simplicity by ^_^x · · Score: 1

    I find the "fairest" games are very simple, and their mechanics are easily understood by all parties involved.

    Also, of course, net code must be very efficient, reliable, and well thought out. Back when I played Counter-Strike, I'd class it as a very fair game (not counting the ubiquitous hacks and scripts) because most players quickly learn the whole layout of every map they are likely to play on, and the characteristics of every gun, so it just comes down to how you make use of it all. On the other hand, the netcode ruins it - I have countless memories of walking up to someone who's not moving, shooting them in the head 20-30 times from a foot away, then I'd spontaneously die as they instantly teleport somewhere else and start moving again because the server counted their shots and not mine (and they'd be the ones lagging!)

    But for all their imbalances, I like fighting games and racing games for competetive play because their mechanics are very openly laid bare for all to understand and make use of.

  42. The assumption of competition or cooperation by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 2, Interesting

    This article just assumes games should be competitive. There are cooperative games. The Wii is pioneering more such cooperative games. Here is a general site on the topic of cooperative computer games:
        http://www.co-optimus.com/

    There are even cooperative board games:
        http://www.familypastimes.com/

    One great thing about cooperative games is that they make it easy for players of different skill levels to play together.

    From Alfie Kohn's book, "No Contest: The Case Against Competition":
        http://www.amazon.com/No-Contest-Case-Against-Competition/dp/0395631254
    "Contending that competition in all areas -- school, family, sports and business -- is destructive, and that success so achieved is at the expense of another's failure, Kohn, a correspondent for USA Today, advocates a restructuring of our institutions to replace competition with cooperation. He persuasively demonstrates how the ingrained American myth that competition is the only normal and desirable way of life -- from Little Leagues to the presidency -- is counterproductive, personally and for the national economy, and how psychologically it poisons relationships, fosters anxiety and takes the fun out of work and play. He charges that competition is a learned phenomenon and denies that it builds character and self-esteem. Kohn's measures to encourage cooperation in lieu of competition include promoting noncompetitive games, eliminating scholastic grades and substitution of mutual security for national security. ... In closely reasoned argument he shows that, while competition is deeply ingrained, it is also inherently destructive, especially where self-esteem is contingent on winning at the expense of others."

    So, there are other ways to have more fun.
        http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=cooperative+games

    --
    A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
    1. Re:The assumption of competition or cooperation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cooperative games aren't a new concept at all though for consoles or pc gaming. With the title of the article, of course it's assumed for competitive games.

      In other words, what I'm saying to your big post is: So what? If there was a use for the off-topic mod, this would be it.

  43. Money --> time --> skill by sirrobert · · Score: 1
    From the summary:

    some online games make your ability to play competitively a question of how much time and money you've invested in a game, rather than the skill you possess.

    I get the "money" part (if he means the purchase of game features), but the "time" part is silly. You get skill by investing time. Skill is the payout for a time investment, and time is often the payout for a money investment. It's different if you can buy game components with real money, but if you buy play time ... how is that different than the guy who put in $347 worth of quarters and 4120 hours to get the top score on Space Invaders at an arcade in 198x?

  44. Regardless of Fair or Balanced, it has to be Fun by auachapan · · Score: 2, Insightful

    As someone who does this for a living, I always feel like fairness, balance, and skill are just tools. The thing that really matters is player psychology. The game doesn't actually have to really be fair or balanced. It just has to *feel* fair and balanced to the player.

    Skill and balance are a means to that end, but I don't think they should be the primary focus.

    It's tempting to think just making it perfectly balanced will make it fun, but that's only part of it. If the player experience isn't considered, it's easy to make something perfect mathematically, but boring or frustrating to players.

    As Jeff Kaplan (former WoW lead) put it, Perfect skill matching would mean you lose half your games. Is that fun? Is there any other way to do it and be fair? Probably not. So they found another way to make it feel fun anyways.

    Whenever I've played with friends who were used to RPG-type games where they're always the hero, they get confused when they play against real people and die a lot instead of easily killing everything like they did before. That makes me think designers should think about how they transition these players from killing computer opponents to real ones.

    As far as measuring skill goes, a perfect skill-based system would determine your skill quickly and accurately and it wouldn't change much. That would feel pretty boring and probably wrong to a player.

    So if your goal is to make a game fair and balanced, you're probably barking up the wrong tree. Instead, think of fairness and balance as some of the tools to make it fun, and focus most on the perception of the average player.

  45. If they only play for fun it doesn't matter. by dreemernj · · Score: 1

    The author makes a distinction between playing for fun and playing to win as if they are mutually exclusive. In reality, it is most certainly possible to play for fun AND play to win, and I believe that should be the target of game design.

    I believe the best way to deal with balance and fairness is to make a game with balance, as in players of equal skill have an equal chance of winning, and depth, meaning there are many valid and usable options available to the player at any point throughout the game. I think the notion of depth is an important one the author either didn't think about or doesn't recognize as being a characteristic that can be separated away from balance and fairness. He touches on the idea of a game that lets everyone start out on an even footing but that has a single dominant strategy to win. That means the game lacks depth.

    Variety could be a word to apply to the depth of a game, however variety is not enough and just having that does not ensure depth. Imagine you are playing a fighting game with 10 characters that all vary wildly. Now imagine in this game, the characters can all do something to knock you down to the ground and once down on the ground all you can do is get up. That's variety without depth because after the throw you have no options and your opponent knows exactly what you are going to do and has plenty of time to capitalize on it.

    Targeting players that both play to win and play for fun is important. Because if someone is really playing just for fun with no care about winning, then game design loses a lot of its importance. At that point you just have to keep them doing something amusing for some period of time and it'll keep them happy.

    Playing to Win by Sirlin could be a helpful guide to anyone designing a gaming experience. Because, unlike the author of this article, I don't think you can ever exclude playing to win from playing for fun. If you are playing Super Mario and you can simply walk from one end of the level to the other, its not fun. If you add the challenge, and the fun is trying to get past it, congratulations, you are playing to win.

    --
    1 (short ton / firkin) = 89.1432354 slugs / keg
    1. Re:If they only play for fun it doesn't matter. by BigCow · · Score: 1

      Speaking as the author of this article, I don't think playing to win and playing for fun are mutually exclusive. Without some aspect of playing to win you're eliminating challenge from the game and making it a less interesting experience. The main distinction I want to make is that playing to win at all costs can make a game a less interesting experience. As a trivial example, if a game includes push-button cheat codes, you may be able to enter those in and win, or you could choose a different mode of play that challenges you more. If you're playing an RPG that has a particular build or tactic that dominates everything else, you might choose to avoid that broken feature just to make things more interesting for yourself, and when playing games with other people you might have other goals in mind than winning at all costs. (like the example of Once Upon A Time, a storytelling game)

      You could introduce a more precise definition of what "playing to win" means, where the goal isn't to achieve simple victory as defined in the game but to achieve certain conditions, or you could just say that there can often be more to enjoying a game than meeting its conditions for victory in the most efficient way.

  46. Controller Button Count by jubei · · Score: 1

    Xbox 360 has 18 buttons (a, b, x, y, left-bumper, right-bumper, back, start, left thumb stick, right thumb stick, 8-way D-Pad) and six analog axes (two 2-axis thumb sticks and two analog triggers).

    The xbox chatpad accessory adds 37 buttons to the controller, but I don't think that they can be used for anything other than text entry. Additionally, you can plug in any USB keyboard and use it for text entry.

    1. Re:Controller Button Count by jubei · · Score: 1

      There is a typo above. Actually the chatpad has 47 buttons, not 37.

  47. Power Grid by Zalminen · · Score: 1

    The reversed turn order does not really balance the situation that much in Power Grid...

    If you fall clearly behind during the first third of the game, you can't really catch up unless the other players do something dumb. (Like building only coal plants and letting another player buy all the available coal...)

    But it's still a fun game.

  48. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  49. We're talking about multiplayer games, right? by BrunBoot13 · · Score: 0

    Nothing in this post indicates that these issues apply only to multiplayer games. Uninformed readers might assume that what's being discussed applies to ALL video games. Many gamers avoid multiplayer games - particularly online multiplayer games - in favour of the single player experience. Why? In part to avoid the problems outlined in this article. Too often playing an online multiplayer game is like entering a world of loudmouthed, abusive, sociopathic children.

    --
    I understand that English is a living language, but I object to changes arising merely from repeated errors.