Chimps Have a Built-In GPS

destinyland writes "European researchers have discovered that chimpanzees have a built-in mental GPS, keeping 'a geometric mental map of their home range, moving from point to point in nearly straight lines.' Using GPS, two primatologists followed 15 chimpanzees for 217 days, and determined that the apes were 'using a mental map built around geometric coordinates.' They're not just identifying landmarks in their surroundings, and in fact, even when swinging through trees, the chimps planned out their route several trees in advance. Here's the paper in the journal Animal Behavior."

Comments

Pay per Paper

[spacefight]

From the 2nd link: "Price: US $ 31.50". Sounds like another slashvertorial. No thanks, chimps.

Re:Pay per Paper

[megamerican]

$31.50 is pretty expensive for a paper which will say that a certain mammal can remember where it has been and can find its way back to that spot, much like most other mammals.

Re:Pay per Paper

[Anonymous Coward]

1. Create pay per paper site
2. Get shitty story submitted by kdawson
3. Massive profit

Re:Pay per Paper

[smallfries]

Sadly most research is behind a paywall. It doesn't make it a slashvertisment though - there was enough detail in the linked article to see that the researchers are talking bollocks, and that the actual paper is unnecessary.

GPS uses time of flight between known landmarks. The fact that the landmarks are actually moving in orbit is irrelevant. The researchers argue that chimps don't use landmarks as reference points, but instead use a geometric layout of their territory. This is called dead-reckoning.

Edit: Preview suggests that I may be a little harsh. Their research itself may be valid and worthy. But their attempt to dumb it down for "the kids" without understanding the comparison that they are making is stupid.

Re:Pay per Paper

[Anonymous Coward]

I have participated in such an experiment. It's called being in the infantry.

Re:Pay per Paper

[trum4n]

1. Create pay per paper site 2. Get shitty story submitted by kdawson 3. ??? 4. Massive profit Fixed that for you.

Re:Pay per Paper

[n9hmg]

Well said. I have contempt for people who can't tell the difference between GPS and mapping.

Re:Pay per Paper

[becker]

They didn't "dumb it down", they hyped it up.

"Animals with built-in GPS!! Planet facing imminent destruction!! More at 11."

Re:Pay per Paper

[destinyland]

Hey! My original submission just linked to this entirely different web site instead.

After reading that article, I went the extra mile to dig up the original research paper, because I thought it would make it more authoritative.

Re:Pay per Paper

[eonlabs]

to actually get something valuable from the article, look up the words kinesthesia or proprioception. Apply beyond the limited frame of reference of a person's own being.

Re:Pay per Paper

[cayenne8]

"$31.50 is pretty expensive for a paper which will say that a certain mammal can remember where it has been and can find its way back to that spot, much like most other mammals."

I hear ya.

I guess myself and most of my friends have built in GPS too. I mean, we can go to a bar, have drinks, and somehow, we all make it back to our homes and wake up in bed. Magic!!

Back in the old days....I used to call it 'autopilot', get in the car and it drives itself home.

Nowdays, I guess it is called built in GPS.

:)

Re:Pay per Paper

[arminw]

....can find its way back to that spot, much like most other mammals....

The Golden Plover raises its young in Alaska but the young birds find their way across thousands of miles of ocean to Hawaii where they spend the winter. These young birds have NEVER been to Hawaii, yet know how to find the tiny spot in the middle of the huge Pacific ocean. Biologists tell us that mammals are supposed to be smarter than birds which have a very undeserved reputation for being dumb bird brains. Even insects, such as butterflies accomplish similar navigation feats. How do evolutionists explain this?

Re:Pay per Paper

[mail2345]

Specialized instinct.

Instinct != Intelligence

And you forgot salmon.

Re:Pay per Paper

[Anonymous Coward]

Magnetic field lines are one of science's best guesses for this. Birds have been shown to be able to orient to magnetic north, so they know which direction they're flying at all times. What's more, they can identify their latitude by judging how long it takes to cross the Earth's field lines.

More information:
Newscientist article

Hey, you asked...

Re:Pay per Paper

[PitaBred]

What? "Smarter" has no connection with evolution. If evolution were perfect, we'd be able to see in the dark as well as cats. Evolution is just "good enough". Why should mammals need that kind of geolocation? We're smart enough to get along without it, so it either never evolved or was never an advantageous trait for mammals. For birds and insects? Finding your way back to your yearly breeding grounds from hundreds or thousands of miles away is quite advantageous. It makes sense that that trait would be selected for.

Go get an education before you start talking about evolution. You only show your ignorance otherwise.

Re:Pay per Paper

[Anonymous Coward]

How do evolutionists explain this?

IANAOrnithologist but I think the prevailing theory is that birds can sense the Earth's magnetic field in a far more useful capacity than we; and they use this to navigate long distances. And for the record, those young birds are following their parents. You seem to have left that out for an increased 'awe' factor.

Butterflies, bees, and even fish, can see in the ultraviolet spectrum; and are privy to a whole world of sensory input that we are not. A bird with a brain the size of a marble that can read an invisible flux field to find its breeding ground is no less amazing than a dumb, blind, virus finding a cell with a vulnerable receptor to exploit. They're both quite simple to those with the right tools; they just seem complicated to those without them.

See also: linux vs your grandparents.

Anyway: How might an 'evolutionist' explain it? Natural selection is pretty self explanatory. The birds that couldn't find their way died in the ocean, thus did not reproduce. Make a paper airplane, but not particularly well. Make 1000 more. Rig a machine that can throw them all exactly the same force and trajectory. Throw them at a target area. Throw out all the ones that missed. Move the machine to the target area, now throw them back. Throw out all the ones that missed. Replicate the designs of the remaining planes. You just adapted a normal paper airplane design to one that can fly to a seemingly random/remote breeding ground and return home. The selective forces here were random turbulence, and aerodynamic bias. For the birds its the ability to read the magnetosphere,

Re:Pay per Paper

[TapeCutter]

"They didn't "dumb it down", they hyped it up"

Same thing.

Re:Pay per Paper

[Sigg3.net]

> How do evolutionists explain this?

Evolution.

But I don't agree with what "we" are supposed to think about birds. Apart from the chimp the only other known animal to create and use tools is the crow.

As a mammal though, I'd imagine birds would be very disinclined to land on water, just like I won't sit down on hot steaming magma on a mountain trip. A puppy don't have to experience a severe burn in order to know it shouldn't sleep in a fireplace.

Evolution is not explained, it's discovered, and it's largely unexplained thanks to our long acceptance of a simpler solution which can easily prove that birds imitated airplanes regardless of the historical chronology, or that dogs are in fact closet firemen. This "answer" is God.

Re:Pay per Paper

[Anonymous Coward]

How do we explain what? Your ignorance of zoology that allows you to believe mammals are somehow "supposed to be" smarter than birds? Explain how you got the idea that birds have a reputation for being stupid?

Sorry, it's not our job to explain that sort of stuff.

Re:Pay per Paper

[phillips321]

Why should mammals need that kind of geolocation? We're smart enough to get along without it...

Try telling that to TomTom who seem to be doing pretty well!

Re:Pay per Paper

[fulldecent]

So the real question is... how do I filter kdawson out of my RSS feed?

Re:Pay per Paper

[radtea]

How do evolutionists explain this?

By investigating the detailed empirical facts of the species in question, including genetic histories of specific species, relations between species sharing similar abilities, physiological and neurological studies of the guidance process in different species, hormonal studies of the seasonal triggers for migration in different species, and careful field observation of bird behaviour, including quantitative estimation of rates and kinds of navigational failure, in different species.

Every occurrence of terms "genetic" and "species" in the above is a point where the process of interpreting the data is informed by evolutionary theory. No other known theory can give the kind of detailed guidance and coherence that evolutionary theory gives, which is why no scientists working on problems like this have any use for alternative theories. If an alternative theory was able to provide the same kind of consistent, over-arching interpretive framework that evolution by variation and natural selection does, and had the same kind of compelling empirical and logical foundations that evolution by variation and natural selection does, scientists would be happy to use it.

Re:Pay per Paper

[that IT girl]

Not to mention, if we evolved from chimps or whatever, why would we have lost this very useful skill? Heck, I get lost any time I try to go somewhere new. It's ridiculous.

Well, until I bought a GPS. ;)

Re:Pay per Paper

[somersault]

If evolution were perfect, we'd be able to see in the dark as well as cats

Would we also have lovely strokeable fur, retractable claws and a nice long tail? Are you a furry? If we needed to see in the dark to survive, we would be able to see in the dark.. doesn't seem to me that there's anything wrong with evolution just because we aren't all superman..

Re:Pay per Paper

[dwye]

> If we needed to see in the dark to survive, we would be able to see in the dark.

In fact, *we*can* see in the dark, thanks to a wonderful invention called "FIRE".

Re:Pay per Paper

[somersault]

As a mammal though, I'd imagine birds would be very disinclined to land on water, just like I won't sit down on hot steaming magma on a mountain trip

Except that there are plenty of birds that rest on water - I was watching some last weekend bobbing away happily on the ocean surface and disappearing every now and then to try and catch some fish. Admittedly when they are actually going to sleep they probably go back to land, I walked past a big flock of about 1000 seagulls on a big grassy area next to the beach a few weeks ago.. they probably could have killed me or buried me in shit quite easily if they wanted, but speaking loudly to them freaked them out and they flew out of the way. Hehe.

Re:Pay per Paper

[somersault]

Carrying around a big flaming torch probably wouldn't make you a very successful hunter.. fire to me seems more useful for warmth.. tool use is an evolutionary advantage though so I suppose you could count fire and cars and things as human traits :P

Re:Pay per Paper

[Sigg3.net]

Yeah, evolution has its dead ends as well.

*ducks*

Re:Pay per Paper

[PitaBred]

I'm not saying that anything is wrong with evolution. I'm saying that it's just good enough, rather than a process for making a "perfect" being. There are many things on our bodies that could be designed much better, but as they are evolution just makes things good enough.

Re:Pay per Paper

[sumdumass]

It would probably benefit pack hunting. In fact, I think it may be done that way in several locations and time periods throughout history. Basically, you set up a group of shooters and have the flame holders chase the game in the direction of the shooters. You could use fire, dogs, people making loud and unnatural noises, the idea is all the same.

Anyways, I don't think tool use is sort of a specifically astute evolutionary advantage as much as the underlying principle that allows it is. cognitive resonance (if I used the right term properly) has not only allowed us to use tools, but it has allowed us to think about tool use in ways that give us an advantage over other species. We took a sharp stick and made it sharper by grinding the head to a point or by shaping rocks and bones then attaching them, we made it harder by drying it in a flame or by using other materials and compounds of materials, we made it straighter by shaping it with tools and using the compounds, we made it more accurate by using feathering that slows the back end down to keep it in a straight line and the sharp end pointing forward where the bulk of the force will be transferred, we angled the feathers to produce a spin to increase the accuracy, We then devised another tool altogether to increase the range of the arrow. Fire and cars don't give us the advantage, Tool use isn't evolutionary, it's the ability to think about things and solve problems, to use tools to make other tools, and to use that entire process to however we find advantageous to us even if it is just to fool around. The human trait is the ability to process and learn detailed experiences and to use other forces to supplement what we are naturally lacking.

Some animals might use sticks to flush termites or ants from a mound and get dinner, we cultivate both and have a store of food. Some animals swing on vines growing in the trees to get around or just have fun, we build vines out of plants and chemicals and put the where we want them. Some animals eat herbs or rocks and minerals to aid in digestion, we cook the food and create drugs to cure diseases and illnesses. Tool use is common in the evolutionary world, our detailed use and ability to solve problems on levels above the problem is where our evolution is.

Re:Pay per Paper

[sumdumass]

I don't think the idea is that we evolved from chimps (actually I think it is apes if I remember right), it was that chimps and people evolved from a common ancestor that was neither chimp or human. So basically, chimps and humans evolved from something that was the same. However, we have never found the missing link and some people attempt to claim there isn't one when that is brought up. It could be entirely possible that we aren't related at all and two species genetically similar evolved in parallel without any common ancestry.

Re:Pay per Paper

[Walter Carver]

cat rss | grep -vi kdawson

it's simple :P

j/k. I want to know about this too.

Except...

[just_another_sean]

... in Texas!

Built-In Mental GPS

[Herr_Skymarshall]

Does it run Linux?

Re:Built-In Mental GPS

[QuantumG]

Microsoft Sues Chimps.

Re:Built-In Mental GPS

[just_another_sean]

Does it run Linux?

Are you asking on behalf of Microsoft?

Re:Built-In Mental GPS

[CaptainPatent]

Does it run Linux?

I hear it's Gutsy Gibbon.

buh-duh... ching

Re:Built-In Mental GPS

[flu1d]

Microsoft Sues Chimps.

You really think they'll sue themselves?

Re:Built-In Mental GPS

[Linker3000]

Imagine a bonobo cluster of those!

Re:Built-In Mental GPS

[niktemadur]

Does it run Linux?

This one does.

Re:Built-In Mental GPS

[Ihmhi]

That's an insult to all chimpkind.

Re:Built-In Mental GPS

[xaositects]

No, they'd just eat the FAT. no evidence left then.

Re:Built-In Mental GPS

[bar-agent]

Imagine a bonobo cluster of those!

Bonobos do activities in clusters, but that activity ain't GPS...though it does involve positioning.

Re:Built-In Mental GPS

[drinkypoo]

+5 Funny for "I know you are, but what am I". What's next, stop hitting yourself? Or would that be leaving /.?

Re:Built-In Mental GPS

[Mistah Blue]

How 'bout a Beowulf of chimps...

Re:Built-In Mental GPS

[rrohbeck]

A Clusterfuck?

But...

[ATOMISCHE]

Calling it GPS implies they are using external signals to locate. The article says the chimps are creating and using internal distance transform maps.

Re:But...

[CaptainPatent]

No silly, the chimps have simply evolved to use the working GPS satellites in use for navigation. You should always assume that no word in an article covering a scientific paper are simply hype and never assume anything is misrepresented.

*apologizes for sarcastic rant*

Re:But...

[GooberToo]

The last time the chimp community lost GPS signals they all started crashing into each other and exploding. It was a real tragedy.

Rumour has it Microsoft's Ballmer was repeatedly spotted running into walls and throwing chairs.

Well,

[Jurily]

duh.

Re:Well,

[HalWasRight]

I agree. Why does this type of thing surprise anyone? Oh, that's right. Some people think humans are somehow, er, special beings .

THere's no way i'm having a chimp on my dashboard

[Barsteward]

they sh*t everywhere and you'd have to feed it bananas for directions.

What does the G in GPS stand for

[edittard]

No they don't. Drop them somewhere they've never been before and ask them to go somewhere else they've never been before and they'll either pull funny faces at you or initiate a poo barrage.

Tell me again, what does the G in GPS stand for? It sure doesn't stand for "having a reasonable memory of your surroundings and a rough sense of direction". And neither do the P or the S.

Bullshit summary again. Or maybe bullshit article. Who cares? After a while, you don't bother.

Re:What does the G in GPS stand for

[wizardforce]

You are taking their analogy far too literally. The chimps (apparently) appear to use at the least a coordinate like system of navigation. The GPS analogy works here as we humans use a coordinate system (via GPS) to navigate on occasion. It probably doesn't work globally for the chimps as their coordinate system would be localized to their territory.

Re:What does the G in GPS stand for

[limekiller4]

editard writes:
"No they don't."

Thank you Captain Literal.

Do you really think anyone meant to imply primates have, in their brains, something commensurate with features found in a Garmin?

"Bullshit summary again. Or maybe bullshit article. Who cares? After a while, you don't bother."

I think we just found your problem...

Re:What does the G in GPS stand for

[NewbieProgrammerMan]

Maybe it's just that people writing these summaries and/or articles haven't the faintest clue how GPS operates. It's just a magical box on their dashboard that can figure out a route from A to B, so when <other creature/object X> can plan a route from one point to another, it must be similar, right?

Re:What does the G in GPS stand for

[edittard]

Could be. And they'd not be alone

Re:What does the G in GPS stand for

[need4mospd]

The G stands for genital. They know where they are by using their genital's relationship to their surroundings.

Re:What does the G in GPS stand for

[nine-times]

It's not just what GPS stands for, either. Not every positioning system that works globally is GPS. Yeah, I'm being pedantic, but "GPS" really is supposed to indicate the particular system, not just any system.

So saying chimps have built-in GPS because they can navigate is a little like saying they have built-in Canon Powershot cameras because they can see.

Re:What does the G in GPS stand for

[edittard]

Do you really think anyone meant to imply primates have, in their brains, something commensurate with features found in a Garmin?

Why don't you find someone who understands English and ask them how many ways to interpret "Chimps Have a Built-In GPS" they can think of?

Bear in mind that some animals really do have quite advanced navigational organs that we humans have to emulate with technological substitutes.

Birds had magnetic compasses in their heads way before we had them on ships.

Re:What does the G in GPS stand for

[__aasqbs9791]

Isn't that how everyone gets around?

*Note: Apparently reading /. and chewing gum is harder (or more dangerous) than walking and chewing gum. I almost choked when I read your comment.

Re:What does the G in GPS stand for

[Chris Mattern]

Bullshit summary again. Or maybe bullshit article. Who cares? After a while, you don't bother.

Bullshit summary. Article just said that researchers used GPS to keep track of where they were while following the chimps around. I'm going to have to see if I can just filter out kdawson's articles.

Re:What does the G in GPS stand for

[The_mad_linguist]

Humans have small, built-in magnetic compasses. Right behind our noses, in fact. They just aren't functional throughout the whole population.

Re:What does the G in GPS stand for

[Livius]

All this time chimpanzees had already managed to launch at telecommunications satellite into geosynchronous orbit *and* perfect bio-engineered radar receivers and atomic clocks, and provide the serivce cost-free to their entire population. All those scientists re-inventing GPS must sure feel dumb.

Re:What does the G in GPS stand for

[blind monkey 3]

No they don't. Drop them somewhere they've never been before and ask them to go somewhere else they've never been before and they'll either pull funny faces at you or initiate a poo barrage. Tell me again, what does the G in GPS stand for? It sure doesn't stand for "having a reasonable memory of your surroundings and a rough sense of direction". And neither do the P or the S.

Obviously in this instance GPS stands for Great Poo Smelling - they navigate in a straight line back to their home 'cause they can smell their own poo from huge distances.... I believe this fits in with their results - I hypothesize that if you put a peg on their noses and they'd be lost.

Re:What does the G in GPS stand for

[microbee]

Right, except there is no other commonly available positioning system like the GPS. Just like the Internet. After a while, a specific term becomes a generic term.

Re:What does the G in GPS stand for

[DMUTPeregrine]

But there is. A bunch of maps, a compass, and a sextant. It can be quite accurate and not overly slow, but GPS is faster, more accurate, takes less skill, and is lighter. On the downside, GPS uses batteries.

Re:What does the G in GPS stand for

[InsertWittyNameHere]

They have a magic box in their heads and it speaks to them! "Next branch, swing left"

It speaks as a British woman.

Re:What does the G in GPS stand for

[chogori]

I wonder if they can pick up satellite tv too? Like, ChimpVo. I can hear the UI sound effect now: "Oo ah!"

Re:What does the G in GPS stand for

[nine-times]

It's not an entirely meaningless distinction, since there has been another system and there are additional systems being planned.

Re:What does the G in GPS stand for

[drinkypoo]

The chimps (apparently) appear to use at the least a coordinate like system of navigation.

They claim that the chimps use a coordinate-like system of navigation because it looks that way to them. From the summary this sounds stupid (and it probably is) but who knows? I'm sure not going to pay to read the paper. Here's why it's probably wrong, though: When you drive from your home to the bank to the store to your home, say, you are hitting certain waypoints. However, you are constrained to follow non-linear paths because you are attempting to follow social conventions. Whether the chimps are using the route of least resistance or actually following social convention (If they always follow the same path it keeps them hip to other chimps in trouble, for example) they don't have to follow roads and sidewalks, so their paths between points are going to be straight. The conclusion to be drawn from the data isn't "CHIMPS HAVE GPS" which is so laughably wrong in every way (not least that Chimps don't usually move across much of the globe - it's a local positioning system!) but "CHIMPS DON'T DRIVE CARS".

Re:What does the G in GPS stand for

[radtea]

The GPS analogy works here as we humans use a coordinate system (via GPS) to navigate on occasion.

The analogy fails because we call our co-ordinate systems "MAPS", not "GPS".

If they said, "Chimps have a mental map" no one would be complaining. But a GPS is not a map. It is a way of locating yourself on a map that has some very specific characteristics, the most important one being that it is GLOBAL, which the locale-specific mechanisms that the chimps are using are not.

Humans were using this kind of map-based navigation long before we started using GPS to make us independent of exactly the kind of locale-specific knowledge these chimps are using, so in fact what the chimps are doing is EXACTLY WHAT THE GPS WAS DESIGNED TO MAKE UNNECESSARY.

So yeah, I can totally see how someone would want to look at that and say, "Hey, these chimps are doing exactly what a GPS doesn't! Let's say they have a GPS in their head!"

Re:What does the G in GPS stand for

[edittard]

Why don't you find someone who understands English and ask them how many ways to interpret "Chimps Have a Built-In GPS" they can think of?

Me: Could you read this one paragraph (Slashdot title and summary)?

I rest my case.

Re:What does the G in GPS stand for

[nurb432]

Yes, but he had to publish something for the 100,000 dollar grant he got or there wont be anymore.

Re:What does the G in GPS stand for

[limekiller4]

I wrote:
"Me: Could you read this one paragraph (Slashdot title and summary)?

edittard writes:
"I rest my case."

If your case relies on being too lazy to read the blurb, you deserve what you get.

Conventional wisdom states that when you're in a hole, stop digging.

Your turn.

Chimp Satellites

[prh6576]

I must have missed all the Chimp satellite launches, when did they happen?

Re:Chimp Satellites

[aicrules]

Poo throwing was an early test of their launch vehicle.

Re:Chimp Satellites

[spacefight]

Some time ago... http://www.ape-o-naut.org/famous/

Re:Chimp Satellites

[caitsith01]

This documentary should bring you up to speed.

Re:Chimp Satellites

[Clandestine_Blaze]

Last year.

This is why they will become our overlords.

[bagboy]

Haven't you seen "Planet of the Apes"?

So does Commander Taco...

[GPLDAN]

Few people know this, but he actually knows what the next three days of Slashdot articles are going to be. Even breaking news articles, he's already taken it into account and written it up ahead of time. He knows what you are going to submit before you do.

Isn't that just...

[caitsith01]

...a fancy way of saying "remembering where stuff is relative to other stuff"?

My cat can do that. If she wants to come upstairs in my house, she'll walk in a straight line to the bottom of the staircase from wherever she is, up the stairs, and in a straight line from there to wherever she wants to be.

I guess she's got "cat GPS" and/or is "using internal distance transform maps"... I never knew she was so talented.

I would think most semi-complex animals have this ability.

Re:Isn't that just...

[NineNine]

I agree. I have a completely blind cat, and she gets around the house just fine, only running into stuff if I move furniture. It's really impressive to see, as she learns her environment the first time around. This article wasn't news to me.

Re:Isn't that just...

[MichaelSmith]

• Wakes up in middle of night. Bloody cats on the bed again
• Puts cat out through front door
• One minute passes
• Cat comes back

The animal had gone to the back of the house, climbed to the upper story and come into the house through a little window high in the shower cubicle of the upstairs bathroom. Then it walked back down the stairs and into our room.

Of course it has a map. What it doesn't know is that I am going to strangle it if it keeps pulling tricks like that.

Re:Isn't that just...

[david.given]

The animal had gone to the back of the house, climbed to the upper story and come into the house through a little window high in the shower cubicle of the upstairs bathroom. Then it walked back down the stairs and into our room.

No, that's far too much effort. What actually happened was the cat read your mind, realised that you knew a plausible route by which it could get in, and so after being put out it just sat comfortably until you were out of sight and then teleported back onto your bed, knowing that you would never suspect anything.

Cats put the kind of effort into being lazy that the most hardened work ethic afficionado could only dream of.

Re:Isn't that just...

[kestasjk]

I agree. I have a completely blind cat, and she gets around the house just fine, only running into stuff if I move furniture. It's really impressive to see, as she learns her environment the first time around. This article wasn't news to me.

YouTube it: Instant 5 million views.

Re:Isn't that just...

[Nocturnal Deviant]

heh even children can do it!

when i climbed trees as a kid i sure as hell checked a few branches up...of course the only time i didnt i absentmindedly grabbed air and had a bumpy 20 foot fall to the ground(lovingly broken by around a hundred small and large branches...

Re:Isn't that just...

[bitrex]

He gave it to a little boy with a dollar note, Told him for to take it up the river in a boat; They tied a rope around its neck, it must have weighed a pound; Now they drag the river for a little boy that's drowned.

But the cat came back the very next day, The cat came back, we thought he was a goner! But the cat came back; it just couldn't stay away. Away, away, yea, yea, yea

Re:Isn't that just...

[Sneeka2]

Exactly. I'm using the same three train stations (concrete jungles, seriously) every morning to get to work, and I know the most direct way between entrances, exits and platforms, which train doors will be closest to where I need to go and I can tell the direction of other important places relative to where I am at any time.

Does that mean I have a built-in GPS? No, it just means I've taken the same route often enough to have it frikkin committed to memory. It's not that hard. I actually bet it's harder for most humans than for animals since we tend to distract ourselves with loads of other stuff, whereas animals usually seem to concentrate on what they're doing, even walking.

Astonishing what passes for research these days...

Re:Isn't that just...

[ArbitraryDescriptor]

The headlines lately about ape intelligence revelations have sounded a bit like my mom telling me a story about her cat. Next week I expect to hear that Apes are capable of remembering which cabinet their food is in, planning to open it later, and waiting until no one is looking to do it.
Amazing!

No, wait, it totally isn't. And unless I have seriously misjudged our closest relative's ability to function on the level of at least a 2 year old child; these researchers are either fishing for grant money or way to infatuated with their subjects. At least my mom admits it.

Re:Isn't that just...

[Kupek]

The question is not whether or not an animal is able to navigate. All animals do navigation of some kind.

The question is how the animal navigates. The researchers are arguing that instead of using landmarks ("I've reached the big tree, I should turn left now"), they're relying on a mental map ("I started 20 paces forward and 5 paces left of my destination, and I've gone 20 paces forward, so I still need to go 5 paces left.")

If people here would actually take the time to read the actual research, they'd probably learn something. Instead, what I usually see is people make an assumption about what they think the research is (often aided by a poor blurb), fit it into something they already know, and dismiss it as irrelevant.

People have this too.

[BikeHelmet]

People have this too - although it has to be trained. Most of our extra senses are so underused, that we need to kickstart them somehow, before we become consciously aware of them.

http://hackaday.com/2009/02/05/haptic-compass/

After using his vibrating belt for a while, he knew exactly where he was and what direction he was going, even with it taken off.

Brains are amazing. If you provide them with more info, they figure out how to use it.

Devolution

[Goalie_Ca]

So can someone please explain to me our cousin species can manage to navigate such dense forest with such high precision while many of my highly-intelligent ex girlfriends managed to get lost so easily on short walks.

Re:Devolution

[troll8901]

Obviously they were trying to escape. Did you abduct them in the first place?

Re:Devolution

[NewbieProgrammerMan]

It probably has something to do with our chimp cousins living in an environment that requires more day-to-day use of navigation. Survival might require remembering that there are predators or chimps you don't get along with in area A, or knowing that you better be careful in area B because you've fallen several times after grabbing rotten or slippery branches/vines there.

Your ex-girlfriends probably didn't have any reason to attach negative survival consequence to getting lost on a short walk, so not much energy was allocated to developing excellent navigation skills. That's just my wild guess, though.

[insert joke here about girlfriends gaining positive reproductive consequences by "getting lost" while taking a short walk to visit their Slashdotter boyfriend]

Re:Devolution

[rb2297]

You are posting on slashdot, therefore we all know you do not have any ex girlfriends.

Little Red (Assed) Riding Hood

[Sponge Bath]

chimpanzees have a built-in mental GPS

"All the better to eat your face and hands off with my dear!"

Yes, chimps are dirty, vicious, murdering animals who will eat your face and hands.
Now with GPS!

Re:Little Red (Assed) Riding Hood

[jameskojiro]

Kinda makes Bears look bad as godless killing machines.

Good drivers, maybe...no GPS

[thered2001]

Maybe their brains could form a good basis for organic computer autopilots. But last I heard, they had no satellite antennas built in.

Re:Good drivers, maybe...no GPS

[ve3id]

Will this replace the duck/cat method of instrument flying then? You know, if you lose your horizon you throw the cat in the air, it will always have its feet pointing down, and if you lose your compass you throw the duck out of the window, it will fly South in the winter and North in the summer

Researchers used GPS; Chimps Mapped

[billstewart]

Yeah - TFA says the chimps kept mental maps of their surroundings, and it was the researchers that used GPS because it all looked like jungle to them. That's different from migratory birds or insects which apparently use magnetic fields or sunlight angles for navigation.

Only the Male Ones...

[BlueBoxSW.com]

(Sorry, had to be said)

Re:GPS? Really????

[Red Flayer]

I know i can easily plan and navigate a route to the bathroom in the dark while drunk off my ass. Nothing special there.

Congratulations. You have provided sufficient evidence to demonstrate you may be smarter than a chimp.

Which has nothing to do with the subject of TFA (regardless of misuse of terms in TFA in order to get attention, which is a separate matter -- and is so common that it really shouldn't be cause for anything more than a quick roll of the eyes).

FAT32

[Frankie70]

If these chimps are using the FAT32 file system, I would like to know.
    - Steve Ballmer.

Does this mean

[SnarfQuest]

With this built-in GPS, would chimp-mounted lasers be more accurate than shark-mounted ones?

Re:Does this mean

[Culture20]

With this built-in GPS, would chimp-mounted lasers be more accurate than shark-mounted ones?

Yes, but the chimps tend to drown when you throw them in the water. Something about their density and not having gills.

I already knew this

[ve3id]

I already knew this. Why do we spend such money on research? Think about it, have you ever had a chimp ask you for directions?

Typical

[Anonymous Coward]

This is typical kdawson editing failure.

Re:Chimp used Dolphins' Satellites

[billstewart]

The chimps didn't launch their own satellites - they got the dolphins and orcas to do it while they were still on the planet.

Re:THere's no way i'm having a chimp on my dashboa

[flu1d]

At least only one of those apply to my tomtom

Re:GPS? Really????

[aicrules]

I doubt he could negotiate swinging frmo trees in the dark while drunk off his ass to get to the bathroom though.

Re:THere's no way i'm having a chimp on my dashboa

[troll8901]

But they'll train me in Monkey Kombat for defeating LeChuck. I'll feed them bananas gladly in exchange for Elaine Marley.

JPS

[tverbeek]

They have JPS: Jungle Positioning System

Re:Chimp used Dolphins' Satellites

[cashman73]

You mean, before the dolphins left?

If they have built-in GPS...

[Monkey_Genius]

to navigate their jungle habitat, are the waypoints bananas?

It's dead reckoning . . .

[PolygamousRanchKid]

...a fancy way of saying "remembering where stuff is relative to other stuff"?

Yeah, I was thinking that this is just a bit of "dead reckoning," combined with old salty pirate skills:

"Arrrgh, when yee see the rock, that looks like the skull of a monkey, turn left, take twenty paces, and the treasure is buried below. But beware the curse . . ."

I guess she's got "cat GPS" and/or is "using internal distance transform maps"...

Just to be on the safe side, see if your cat can perform the same trick, while wearing a tinfoil hat. And please get back to us if she can. Maybe those felines are up to something behind our backs.

Re:It's dead reckoning . . .

[Hurricane78]

They definitely are.
They also got access to dangerous chemical weapons.

Re:It's dead reckoning . . .

[Whorhay]

When my wife moved in with her cat I had the same kind of issue, cat wanting to sleep on our bed. This probably wouldn't be an issue now that we bought a kingsize bed but at the time we only had a full size one. My solution? Having mild sleep apnea I don't sleep very deeply, so whenever the cat woke me up jumping onto the bed I'd just shove it off the edge once I thought it had settled down and was getting comfortable. And whenever I come home and can see that it was on the bed while I was gone, I chase it down with a good sized water bottle.

Re:It's dead reckoning . . .

[Kupek]

As pointed out below, what you're saying is the opposite of what the researchers are saying.

RTFA

[Samschnooks]

Bullshit summary again. Or maybe bullshit article. Who cares? After a while, you don't bother.

Exactly! That's why those folks who say RTFA are a bunch of fucking pedantic assholes! I don't need to Read The Fucking Article because it is bullshit anyway!

Therefore, I just post with some two bit opinion based on the title - alright, even then, I don't read the title. I basically just post two bit opinions on Slashdot with an attitude that it's actually based on fact. Fuck yeah! Why, I've gotten +5 "Insightful"s by just skimming over the headline, some posts, and some funny shit, and BINGO! +5! Damn, I'm so fucking good at Karma whoring, I'm thinking of starting a school: Make millions by Karma Whoring on Slashdot! Yes you too can stay at home and only work a couple of hours a day and Karma Whore on Slashdot and make $10,000 a week! There's a kink though....the part where you get the Karma and actually get money....but that's OK! I'll just put in the mice type at the bottom of the screen "Results may vary." or "Nontypical outcome." or "Spurious money making scheme.". Anyway, off to work.

Ya know, I thought of deleting this post, but it's so fucking outrageous and I think it's really funny and satirical that I can't do it. Fuck it! I'll take whatever Karma that comes. Creativity can be a bitch.

Re:RTFA

[edittard]

That's why those folks who say RTFA are a bunch of fucking pedantic assholes! I don't need to Read The Fucking Article because it is bullshit anyway!

The point is that the summary ipso facto faeces tauri est, and is so it's not necessary to RTFA.

Therefore, I just post with some two bit opinion based on the title - alright, even then, I don't read the title.

I did reasd the title. And it was bullshit. Just like everything you write.

By the way, is there some part of "or" your having trouble with?

Purina Chimp Chow

[PolygamousRanchKid]

they sh*t everywhere and you'd have to feed it bananas for directions.

Well, if you run out of bananas, the chimp might be happy to eat your face and hands as a substitute, as recently happened in Connecticut. Those tomtoms are looking like a better deal all the time.

Re:Purina Chimp Chow

[__aasqbs9791]

Are you saying a TomTom won't eat my face? They should include that in the advertisements.

"And now with less Face-eating!"

All navigation systems are now GPS?

[not-my-real-name]

Doesn't any one remember INS (inertial navigation system), LORAN (LOng RAnge Navagation), Dead Reckoning, Celestial Navigation, Pilotage, ADF (Automatic Direction Finding), VOR (VHF Omnidirectional Range), or any of a number that I've forgotten?

Straight lines

[Culture20]

Maybe they happen to like traveling in straight lines, and researchers are assuming that "point B" was the intended destination.

Re:Straight lines

[inputdev]

mod parent up. Why make these weird assumptions and call it a discovery?

what do you mean?

[kloot]

of course they have a built in gps. i put it there.

Chimps now outlawed in Egypt

[syousef]

Since GPS is illegal in Egypt, this means that Chimps now are too!

I wonder...

[acb]

I wonder where their satellite constellations are.

Re:THere's no way i'm having a chimp on my dashboa

[blind monkey 3]

they sh*t everywhere and you'd have to feed it bananas for directions.
Hmmm, almost applies to politicians....

Explains how they can track down white women

[zymano]

No wonder so many chimps around white girls.

Re:Obama Policies Will Bankrupt USA Tsarkon Report

[Cassius Corodes]

There is no such thing as reverse racism, its either racism or its not. The reverse of racism is still racism (ie favouring a race vs denigration a race are both examples of racism). Plz discontinue usage k thnx.

Cats do it differently

[Max Littlemore]

A cat will remember how to get from A to Z via P, but if you block that path they will not automatically know that they can also get from A to Z via Q. That's why they do that annoying thing of walking in one door and then standing at another door asking to be let out.

I remember reading a thing about how women give directions versus men and apparently women have a similar way of dealing with spacial relationships. Directions are remembered as a sequence of landmarks for women rather than a map as in men, which is why, statistically anyway, men tend to be better at using maps upside down or sideways thanks to mental rotation.

Cats navigate like women, chimps navigate like men.

WOW. No GW jokes.

[lena_10326]

Amazing. Looks like we've moved on?

tin foil

[ouachiski]

So if you put a tin foil hat on a chimps head it will be completely lost?

This doesn't surprise me one bit

[greg_barton]

My daughter is 19 months old. Almost as soon as she could walk at 13 months she was navigating the house on her own. She knew how to get back to her room from the kitchen, three doors, two rooms and a hallway away. Heck, she couldn't even open the doors on her own, but she sure could toddle over to them and squeak until we did it for her. :)

It's not like we taught her how to remember 2d layouts and navigate them. She just did it.

She's my first kid, and I'm learning more about intelligence and learning from watching her than I ever did in all of my AI classes.

Another example: she loves sitting in the driver's seat of our car, playing with the steering wheel and the keys. The first time she did it she was holding the keys in her left hand, but the ignition is on the right side of the steering column. She tried reaching over to put the keys in, but immediately realized she couldn't reach, so she switched the keys to her right hand. Do you know how difficult it would be to code up that kind of coordination and reasoning process in a robot? Frikkin' hard! But she just did it.

It's helped me realize just how much behavior and intelligence is hard coded in our brains. There's a lot that my wife and I are teaching my daughter, but there's no way we could have taught her everything she now knows, and I seriously doubt she's figured it all out by mimicry. (Especially the complex skills and problem solving behavior.) So the idea that a primate could have a "built in" mental mapping ability makes perfect sense now that I've seen such a thing in action.

Re:This doesn't surprise me one bit

[Shadow of Eternity]

You let your daughter sit in the drivers seat with the keys?

Re:This doesn't surprise me one bit

[greg_barton]

Yes, and like others have commented, 1) I'm sitting right there with her, 2) she's not coordinated enough to put the keys in the ignition, (though she comes close, and I'm damn proud of her for that) 3) she's not tall enough to reach the gas, and 4) not strong enough (nor does she know to) release the parking brake or shift out of park.

If you were actually concerned that I put my daughter in danger, you should have thought things through a bit first.

Ballmer

[Saija]

does have one to perfectly aim the chairs he thows ?

Re:No, this is total malarky

[arminw]

....The ability to sense one's position on this blue marble is not a physical sense possesed by any animal....

Knowing your position is relatively unimportant. What you really want to be able to do is to get to where you want to go. Knowing your starting point may be important by the methods that humans use to navigate but creatures like homing pigeons will find their way back without knowing their present location. They don't seem to care where they are in order to figure out how to get to where they want to go.

Animals, including insects and fish are superb navigators finding their way in and over trackless oceans. Scientists think that these creatures use the Earth's magnetic field, but that has not been established in all cases. Many species migrate back and forth between very specific localized places. In most cases, the young have never been in the wintering grounds, yet unerringly find their way without guidance from their parents. Figuring out how this programming got installed in their often miniscule brains is a mystery that will keep scientists busy for a long time to come.

Didn't...

[Johnny Mnemonic]

...any one else worry that this implied Chimp controlled, orbiting satellites?

Damn you, bloody apes!

Re:THere's no way i'm having a chimp on my dashboa

[troll8901]

chee-eek-oop (monkey see monkey do)

no they don't

[localoptimum]

Does the chimp GPS provide automatic traffic avoidance? It must be the same implanted GPS as featured in London Taxi Driver 1.0?

What a load of bollocks.

Re:no they don't

[DanJ_UK]

I wonder if they can detect speed camera's too.

I wonder...

publish (hype) or perish

[mduse]

What is scary is that this piece of science without the hype would have stayed unknown to /. behind the paywall, and it would still be the same piece of science (without the GPS thingy).

no offense intended ...

[freaker_TuC]

... but in a way we are all monkeys ... so .. the apple sure didn't fall far from the tree...

Intelligence isn't measurable but discoverable ...

We should be happy to know our own evolution as primate; it shows intelligence has gone a far ride ... (with lots of obstacles) ..

VERY EASY to explain !

[freaker_TuC]

How would you feel when you are lost?

Evolution found a way to not feel so bad as before, when yelling ... I'M LOOOSTTT!!!!

So that means Bush planned this economic crisis...

[bodland]

Amazing.

Re:THere's no way i'm having a chimp on my dashboa

[nurb432]

And if you piss it off, it eats your face.