Dell Says High Linux Netbook Returns a "Non-Issue"

Michiel Roos notes that at this week's OpenSource World, a Dell executive deflated Microsoft's claims that Linux notebooks have return rates four or five times higher than Windows machines. "Todd Finch, Dell senior product marketing manager, said the number of Linux returns are approximately the same as those for Windows netbooks. He categorized the matter of returns as a 'non-issue.' 'They are making something of nothing,' he said of Microsoft's claims."

Comments

in your face microsoft!

[FudRucker]

talk to the hand...

Re:in your face microsoft!

[yourexhalekiss]

According to Dell, and TFA, Linux netbooks don't have high returns vs. windows netbooks.

Re:in your face microsoft!

[Anonymous Coward]

The people who return Linux netbooks do so because they can't find the big blue "e" on the desktop. To hell with them, I say.

Linux is fucking king now. Linux shits all over the chests and faces of the MS-loving ignorami and fucks their wives and sisters. The strong survive and run or migrate to Linux, the weak do not live on because they are cuckolded by Linux users.

We, the Linux users, are fucking king...no, GODS. We are the gods who demand sacrifice! Ha. Ha ha. HahahHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAA!

-- Ethanol-fueled

Re:in your face microsoft!

[HermMunster]

Me thinks he's been nipping at the ethanol a bit too much and it's not even noon.

Re:in your face microsoft!

[FudRucker]

according to your reply to my comment you did not have a clue what i meant...

Re:in your face microsoft!

[micheas]

It was rejected by slashcode.

Re:in your face microsoft!

[Lumpy]

Problem is he was not drinking ethanol.. Methanol.. He's gone raving mad....

Dang it, now he's drinking the salt water from the reef tank in the lobby. STOP THAT! I gotta go and try and catch him before the boss get's back.

Re:in your face microsoft!

[drewzhrodague]

Linux shits all over the chests and faces of the MS-loving ignorami and fucks their wives and sisters.

So is that like a uh... Cleaveland Steamer?

Re:in your face microsoft!

[Anonymous Coward]

Ha. Ha ha. HahahHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAA!

WTF is that supposed to be? An evil manic laugh?

You sound like Mandark for god's sake

MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!

Now that's how you express an evil manic laugh in writing!!

Re:in your face microsoft!

[Anonymous Coward]

Real trolls and flame bait artists take note: If you state your comment in a funny enough manor then all sins are forgiven. We, the mods, don't mod you down because we disagree or are offended, but because, well frankly you are boring and we're just trying to help people avoid the same old non creative crap. So go to comedy school and take some creative writing classes.

Re:in your face microsoft!

[hairyfeet]

I can tell you why Dell isn't having the return issue, even though it will get me modded down by the zealots. Do you want to know why? It is actually quite simple: It is because Dell has the Linux Netbooks hidden, that's why! Are they on the front page? Nope. Are they on the first page you get when you type "Netbook" on their site? Nope again. And there is a REASON for that, and it is pretty damned smart if you ask me. The reason is that the ONLY way you are gonna get a Linux anything from Dell is if you know about them and go hunting for them. That means the customer A-knows EXACTLY what Linux is, and B- Is willing to go out of their way to get it.

This is why Dell can pull it off and retailers,. like say Walmart can't, or why I can't allow Linux anything to be displayed at my little shop. Because you have to go out of you way to find the Linux at Dell, with a retailer folks walk in off the street. You aren't gonna trip over Linux at Dell, whereas retail anybody can see it. Here is my experience with Linux-Folks see the lower price, go "oooh pretty!" and no matter how you try to steer them they end up going to Walmart, or Best Buy, or Staples and going "oohhhh sale!" and putting something in their cart with ZERO research. And without research the odds of getting something from a retailer like Walmart that works in Linux is less than 20%. Then they bring it back because the PC is "broken" and expect you to "fix it", which of course you can't. So you either burn the customer, who then spreads the word at what a shitty shop you have and soon you are out of business, or take the product back and eat the difference between the new price and what you can get for it used.

So while I am glad Dell can pull it off, there is a REASON why you won't see Linux at a retail outlet near you anytime in the near future. It is because the support for the devices found at the big three retail outlets, the above Best Buy, Staples, and Walmart, is piss poor at best. At my local supercenter I wrote down brands and looked them up and was looking at barely 20% "supported", if you call doing a CLI voodoo dance for hours and barely getting half functionality support. There is just too many items being sold at retail that have zero support from the vendor, and since Linux will never get a stable ABI, so vendors can 'write once, use forever" as they do with Windows, I just don't see that situation changing. It seems that many in the Linux community are "source code or nothing!" and therefor will get nothing, at least from most vendors of home products. So I'm glad for Dell, but that doesn't solve the "Linux stays a niche" problem, because Linux is hidden in the back of the Dell site.

Re:in your face microsoft!

[dna_(c)(tm)(r)]

Methanol Sniffers. MS. I see it now, it makes them blind and mad. Poor Steve, take a chair.

Re:in your face microsoft!

[plague3106]

Not really... stores also say there really isn't a demand for Linux power computers, which is why they aren't in BestBuy.

Re:in your face microsoft!

[s4m7]

So is that like a uh... Cleaveland Steamer?

I believe we're calling this one the "Redmond Steamer."

Re:in your face microsoft!

[Anonymous Coward]

Not exactly a good advertisement to join the ranks of Linux users are you?

Re:in your face microsoft!

[s4m7]

You're absolutely right about customers having to seek it out. Heck right there in the article they basically say that when they subtract the people who are returning the netbooks because it isn't windows, then the returns are a non-issue.

Which is why I think it's such a shame that you go on to invalidate your otherwise perfectly reasonable point by perpetuating a worn-out, well-debunked meme.

At my local supercenter I wrote down brands and looked them up and was looking at barely 20% "supported", if you call doing a CLI voodoo dance for hours and barely getting half functionality support.

Since you don't bother to state what kind of devices you're talking about, I'll simply relate my experience. My mother's a 57-year-old computer illiterate. I put ubuntu on a machine for her to try out. Once in a while (maybe twice a year) she has to call me to ask what program she needs to do X. Her multi-function printer: worked out of the box, including scanning. Her ipod: worked out of the box. Her $5.00 keychain digital pictureframe: worked out of the plasticwrap. Her DSLR? works out of the box. Her HD video recorder: works out of the box. I haven't seen one single device touch her computer that failed to function on the first try, without her ever doing any "cli voodoo dance". She never does any research about whether stuff works with linux, she just goes and buys stuff and uses it. And she's getting a nice supply of new coasters from all the worthless driver discs that come with these products, that I've comfortably told her she can just ignore from here on out.

Re:in your face microsoft!

[Svartalf]

I can tell you why Dell isn't having the return issue, even though it will get me modded down by the zealots. Do you want to know why? It is actually quite simple: It is because Dell has the Linux Netbooks hidden, that's why! Are they on the front page? Nope. Are they on the first page you get when you type "Netbook" on their site? Nope again. And there is a REASON for that, and it is pretty damned smart if you ask me. The reason is that the ONLY way you are gonna get a Linux anything from Dell is if you know about them and go hunting for them. That means the customer A-knows EXACTLY what Linux is, and B- Is willing to go out of their way to get it.

Heh... As an exercise, I conducted a little experiment. I wanted to see if your claims were at all true...

First click: A search for "netbook" on dell's main page

Second click: The netbook product lineup main page

Third click: "Choose your mini". At which point you're offered a choice between a blue one or a red one (A 10v or a 10) which lists Linux or Windows XP as the OS.

At which point you're into purchasing. Now... Oddly enough, there was only one choice which was clearly marked "Customize With Ubuntu"- but it's one of the ones you'd really, really want, whether you're doing Ubuntu or XP, unless you're unable to afford the extra $20-50 for the stock config on the price. Seriously.

As an observation, neither "Linux" nor "Ubuntu" was plugged into looking for this ephemeral "buried" netbook you're claiming- just "netbook".

Four.
Clicks.

And it was the same number if you were looking for a Linux preinstall or an XP one.

Sorry, you're neither correct nor insightful- and I wish the people that'd modded you up had bothered to do the same little experiment I did and didn't give you the time of day, any more than the discussion threads over at Linux Today gave you an inch on this stuff you're coming up with. Which, I might add, is verbatim what you posted over here.

Re:in your face microsoft!

[Anonymous Coward]

I just went to Dell's website and found Linux Netbooks on the second page.

1. Go to Dell's home page
2. Select "For Home Use" and "Laptops and Minis".
3. Narrow selection to "minis" and operating system "linux".
4. Profit.

So many people on /. talk out their asses.

Re:in your face microsoft!

[pseudonomous]

But if you want to find something that's NOT a netbook, then things get harder. In fact, I found the best approach was to google "dell ubuntu laptop" instead of trying to find them on Dell's website. At that point, it's clear you know what you're looking for (lcomputers w/ linux OEM installed) and you're buying from Dell becuase you know they've got it, so while the original claim is not %100 on the mark, there's some truth to it.

Re:in your face microsoft!

[Svartalf]

That's cheating... You had to plug in "Linux" or "Ubuntu" to find the same. That's part and parcel of his gripe. They're "buried" and you have to "know about Linux" to go find them.

To whit, I've proven that the end result isn't as he claimed without a single mention of either term, only "netbook" or "mini" and following their expected path with three clicks will get you to a page with Ubuntu prominently mentioned in relationship to their Netbooks and a fourth click will get you into the start of the order system, ORDERING one from them with it on there.

Re:in your face microsoft!

[koolfy]

So you either burn the customer, who then spreads the word at what a shitty shop you have and soon you are out of business

While I do see your point,I have to point out that according to my personal experience, those customers, once burnt, are pretty unable to spread anything.

Oh wait... you were kidding, weren't you ?
(Anyway, you should give it a try, really, it feels so good...)

Re:in your face microsoft!

[bitrex]

Here is my experience with Linux-Folks see the lower price, go "oooh pretty!" and no matter how you try to steer them they end up going to Walmart, or Best Buy, or Staples and going "oohhhh sale!" and putting something in their cart with ZERO research. And without research the odds of getting something from a retailer like Walmart that works in Linux is less than 20%. Then they bring it back because the PC is "broken" and expect you to "fix it", which of course you can't. So you either burn the customer, who then spreads the word at what a shitty shop you have and soon you are out of business, or take the product back and eat the difference between the new price and what you can get for it used.

When I worked for an internet electronics retailer I was amazed at just how often situations like this would happen. A typical call would go something like this:

"You idiots! You sent me the wrong item! Take this piece of junk back and send me what I want!"

"I'm sorry about that, it says on your order form you ordered a Widget ABC dash 9. What did you receive instead?

"Oh, I got a Widget ABC dash 9 alright. Why did you send me this thing?"

"Because you, um, ordered it?"

"Yeah, I ordered it, but it's not what I want.What's wrong with you guys that you can't send me what I want?

This would happen at least a couple of times a week - apparently for some customers a "Sale" banner with a low price on some item is just too much to resist, and they'll order it having absolutely no notion of what they're buying. We called this "I don't know what this thing is but I want it" syndrome. In their minds apparently it was the job of the retailer to somehow divine after the fact what the customer actually desired.

Re:in your face microsoft!

[Anonymous Coward]

My wife is incapable of using a computer without screaming. One day, I accidently (I swear it was an accident, not an experiment) left an ubuntu CD in her laptop. She turned the computer on while I wasn't there, was pretty irritated that the picture of the girls was gone, and used the computer. She checked her email, downloaded a word document, edited it, saved it to the thumbdrive and closed the lid. When I got home she said "the computer looks funny and I couldn't find the 'e'. What did you do to it?" Long story short, she has an ubuntu CD for when "the computer isn't working right" When there's a good picassa clone, she's sold.

Re:in your face microsoft!

[lepidosteus]

Low demand and high return rate aren't the same thing

Re:in your face microsoft!

[joocemann]

You mom hit the jackpot, that's what that means.

I use ubuntu, and fyi most the computers I've installed it on require some level of research on ubuntuforums.org to figure out all the tweaks and workarounds that are necessary for my parts to work.

It has worked perfectly on one computer so far. Now that I'm thinking about it, the 20% that the parent was talking about is pretty much spot on for the experience I've had. Of course I've gotten most of them working, but had I not done all the forum research and terminal commands, the computers would have been less-able or basically junked for inop.

Re:in your face microsoft!

[Eberlin]

>> she has to call me to ask what program she needs to do X

just to incite a flamewar, what do you recommend to do X -- kde, gnome, or xfce? :)

In other news, I've scrounged up some old hardware and can't seem to get it running properly with the latest kubuntu. It's one of those Hauppauge PCI PVR things that is said to be supported. I was eventually able to get audio but no video yet. Even then, I had to do some CLI-thing to make component the default input. KDE goes unusable when I turn on desktop effects (flashes off and on, slows down the machine) with an HIS Radeon HD4850 and the proprietary drivers from the ubuntu repos. I've had to do the Alt-Shift-F12 thing to have a shot at disabling it. I also have an old Canon scanner E3000 or something like that which SANE lists as unsupported.

I've been running Linux now in one form or another for quite a bit. Went from Red Hat to Mandrake to Ubuntu/Kubuntu spanning 3 different machines. I've put up with having to fsck with wireless drivers and finding out certain products (same name, different chipset...bad Linksys!) just weren't supported. I still like it better than the alternatives, for the most part. Right now, though, if I have to scan pictures or record/transfer VHS video to my HDD, I have to boot to XP.

It's not exactly the "your grandma" experience and I guess I take some of the blame by not doing as much research and just hoping that parts I had laying around would work effortlessly. I still likes teh Linux...now if I can get those things to work, that'd be great.

Re:in your face microsoft!

[Runaway1956]

It's always noon SOMEWHERE!

Re:in your face microsoft!

[fireheadca]

I supported the Linux before Dell shut a lot of American support sites down.

For the most part it was quiet, if hardware was an issue (and rare at that even) the user seemed to have isolated the component and was calling in for a direct swap. Obviously, we would test with a diagnostics disk and find that for the most part, our linux users were bang on the money.

The majority of our calls seemed to originate between two different people who wanted to get away from Microsoft and wanted to learn about computers. While we were still in operation, these people received Gold Support with follow-ups and complete resolution.

The grub update killed a number of systems but luckily we had a good team to help our linux users.

The reason that linux is hidden on the Dell site stems from two separate factors. A) The linux systems we sold were loss-leaders (oh yes - the support alone killed any profit margin). They did this to give Dell a cool factor (to geeks who would continue to buy) B) They believed the average windows novice would be lost in Linux

Having supported Vista/XP and Ubuntu, I was glad they kept it more of a secret. Some of the windows support calls turn into nightmares trying to get someone just to a command line or even to the desktop.

Oh! and the returns were much much less than our windows computers. Go figure.

Re:in your face microsoft!

[Knuckles]

http://picasa.google.com/linux/thanks-deb.html ?
And I haven't used Picasa, but maybe f-spot (Ubuntu's default photo manager) is an option (it also can upload files to Picasa, allows to manage your albums, etc.)

Re:in your face microsoft!

[Runaway1956]

HA HA! The joke goes both ways!! Newegg and Tiger are happy to be the vendors of No-OS hardware! Maybe you should take a hint? Stock bare metal, stock Linux CD/DVD, and be prepared to inform potential buyers that they shouldn't even ATTEMPT to install Linux on bare metal, unless they have an IQ larger than their shoe size. What? You say that you can't get away with insulting customers like that? Phhht. Dozens of people have achieved fame and fortune by insulting their customers. Google "stand up comic". Alright, so you're not Graucho Marx. Even so, just a little practice on your part should kick in the "reverse psychology" thing that people are hard wired with. The customer should walk out your door, carrying hardware and installation CD, calling over his shoulder, "I'll be back next week, I'll show you, I CAN DO THIS!"

As I say, Newegg and Tiger are laughing all the way to the bank.

Re:in your face microsoft!

[PeterBrett]

Sorry, you're neither correct nor insightful- and I wish the people that'd modded you up had bothered to do the same little experiment I did and didn't give you the time of day, any more than the discussion threads over at Linux Today gave you an inch on this stuff you're coming up with. Which, I might add, is verbatim what you posted over here.

I still think Slashdot needs a (-1, Wrong) moderation option for idiots like this.

Re:in your face microsoft!

[Anonymous Coward]

The loose ABI encourages open source drivers, which is a good thing for long-term hardware support. Which is part of the reason why Linux supports more devices than Windows, or any other OS.

The linux stays a niche problem will be solved by the "free as in beer" part given enough time. Linux is the platform of choice for embedded systems as well as high-power systems. So the reasons preventing it from not being dominant in the middle of the spectrum are cultural, not technical.

Still, as you are in the trenches selling the stuff, I trust your expertise. Just don't expect the situation to stay the way it is now forever. Cheap has always been the driving force in what dominates the PC market. Ask IBM. Or Microsoft, for that matter.

Re:in your face microsoft!

[jaavaaguru]

No, it's more effective to go to dell.com, search for "Linux", then click the link to narrow your results to only laptops. That works just fine.

Re:in your face microsoft!

[Anonymous Coward]

Totally, except let the women go free and nobody gets hurt!

Re:in your face microsoft!

[hacksoncode]

Actually, following your link results in a page containing 4 models all preloaded with Windows XP. Customizing those leads to a page where the only OS selection is Windows XP.

The only netbook I've seen of theirs that comes with Ubuntu by default is the cheapest 8" one that's only ~$50 less than the cheapest 10" ones with XP. (via a link different than the one you posted)

But it's true that it's hardly a challenge to find a Ubuntu machine. Particularly if you're looking for one.

Re:in your face microsoft!

[Anonymous Coward]

We Windows users would fuck your wives except for the fact that being Linux users , you don't have any.

Re:in your face microsoft!

[michaelmanus]

I hate to say it, but it's likely that the dell product manager is spinning this in Linux's favor as best he can.
It seems weird that he'd want to piss off his supplier, right? I mean, why would he make any comment at all on the issue? Well, that's just the thing. When you tell your supplier that they are in less demand than they used to be, then you have some weight to throw around when it comes to relicensing.
This guy is just using the media as a pawn.

Re:in your face microsoft!

[BikeHelmet]

Ubuntu's hardware support has been fine on every computer I tried it on.

Although last year libata got updated to break support for an old via PATA controller... but there's always SATA. ;)

My problem with Ubuntu is still the amount of CLI & gedit configuration needed for "simple" tasks like networking.

Re:in your face microsoft!

[masshuu]

This?
+----------+
|  PLEASE  |
|  DO NOT  |
| FEED THE |
|  TROLLS  |
+----------+
    |  |
    |  |
  .\|.||/..

Re:in your face microsoft!

[jack455]

right there in the article they basically say that when they subtract the people who are returning the netbooks because it isn't windows, then the returns are a non-issue.

Did we read the same article? I can't find where they say this.

Re:in your face microsoft!

[Arthur Grumbine]

according to your reply to my comment you did not have a clue what i meant...

According to your reply to the wrong comment you do not have a clue how to use /.

Re:in your face microsoft!

[Arthur Grumbine]

...STOP THAT!...

Who exactly are you typing to there?

Re:in your face microsoft!

[hairyfeet]

Thank you. I love how the Linux guys just scream and shit over me because I am not following their "religion" of choice. I ask them: When was the last time you sold Linux at retail? never? Then how would you know squat about the average home user or their needs? I deal with customers 6 days a week (sometimes 7) so I know of which I am speaking. As for the earlier poster that wanted to know "what devices" well, only the three biggest sellers here according to the guy running the electronics desk at Walmart. They are, the Lexmark all in one (VERY hot seller, and Walgreen's refills for $10 so they are cheap to buy AND use now), the USB Wifi sticks(also VERY hot, as folks can set up their PC anywhere they want and add new ones without running wires) and the USB TV tuner (smoking hot, according to him with the laptop crowd).

Now tell me with a straight face that those devices are supported in Linux. Lexmark all in one? After hours of CLI voodoo I got one to print, kinda sorta, when it wasn't crashing. Never got scan or fax to do squat. USB Wifi cards? Good luck if you researched a rev d and they have switched to rev F without changing the box. Thos things are like a cracker jack box, you never know what you are gonna get! USB TV Tuners? BWA HA HA HA HA HA. See USB Wifi cards for the answer to THAT question.

Look, I want Linux to have a fighting chance. I remember the 80s when you could get Amiga or Atari or Apple and Am I ALL for competition. But based on my research and dealing with customers Linux just ain't there yet. Did you have to use CLI this week? Today? if the answer is "at all" then you can forget the home users, who often have trouble finding things in control panel, hence Win7 and "search everywhere". I can't even count the number of times I have had hardware boned doing an update on the various Linux distros I tried, I can't remember the last time I had that problem in Windows. Lastly without a stable ABI the home manufacturers will NEVER ever support you! Why should they? They aren't selling enterprise or server gear, therefor you are not worth keeping developers just for you or risking patent trolls by releasing their code. Is the Linux Foundation gonna indemnify them if they get hit by a patent troll over their code? Didn't think so.

So if it works for you, and you are willing to put in dozens if not hundreds of unpaid hours supporting your family? Fine and dandy. I am happy for you. My time is $75 an hour and good luck trying to get most customers to buy support contracts. See the hatred Best Buy gets for extended warranties as an example. The amount of work I would be required to do, and would be unable to charge the customer for, simply dwarfs the $89 for XP Home or $139 for XP Pro. I have already ordered Win7 HP and when SP1 comes out I will switch my customers over. Even if they raise the price to $150 it will still be cheaper than all the research and CLI I'd have to deal with selling Linux. Sorry, no sale.

Re:in your face microsoft!

[Orbijx]

I can tell you why Dell isn't having the return issue, even though it will get me modded down by the zealots. Do you want to know why? It is actually quite simple: It is because Dell has the Linux Netbooks hidden, that's why! Are they on the front page? Nope. Are they on the first page you get when you type "Netbook" on their site? Nope again. And there is a REASON for that, and it is pretty damned smart if you ask me. The reason is that the ONLY way you are gonna get a Linux anything from Dell is if you know about them and go hunting for them. That means the customer A-knows EXACTLY what Linux is, and B- Is willing to go out of their way to get it.

Except that your theory is as full of holes as a pair of fishnet stockings.

How to find a Linux netbook on Dell.com in a few easy steps:
1: visit dell.com
2: point at 'for home', then click on 'laptops & minis'
then follow one of these steps:
3a: click on 'mini 9'
3b: click on 'mini 10'
and continue with this:
4: click on 'customize' or 'customize with ubuntu', but do not click on 'customize with windows xp'.

Of note: the Mini 10v does not appear to have an Ubuntu offering that can be easily located.
Four steps to buying a Dell netbook with Ubuntu.
Not particularly hard, nor out of the way. It's the same way to get the same unit with Windows, anyway, so it's no extra incantations, or out of the way running to get the job done.

Remember: Research BEFORE FUD. Your comment's a dud.

Re:in your face microsoft!

[mjm1231]

To test this, I went to dell.com, clicked the link for computers for Home, then clicked the link for the mini and netbook page. I next selected the min 10. There was a list of four model. Each one had a list of features under it, with a big green "Customize" button. One of the models had an additional shiny green "Customize with Ubuntu" button. Right there in plain sight on the very first page listing the models to choose from. The mini 10v has the same choices. The mini 9 has Ubuntu as the default OS, and therefore requires additional mouse clicks to change to XP. It takes, at most, three mouse clicks from the Dell front page to see a choice for a linux model. It isn't even possible to see a list of available models without seeing a linux choice.

Re:in your face microsoft!

[erikina]

Actually, he's 100% right. On this page you linked: http://www.dell.com/content/topics/segtopic.aspx/laptop-mini2?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs

It lists the operating system as Windows or Linux. Then go ahead and click on one, and you're presented with four choices. All Windows XP. Even when customizing, you can't change from Windows to Linux. It even took me a while to realize how to buy a Ubuntu netbook. One of the four choices has a button "Customize with Ubuntu", then and only then you can buy it with Linux.

Re:in your face microsoft!

[s4m7]

Did we read the same article? I can't find where they say this.

It's written in marketroid speak so you might have missed it, but since I used to work in marketing I'm semi-fluent. I've bolded the relevant stuff.

Where consumers have returned machines, Finch said, it wasn't because of technical problems but because they'd bought a low-priced machine expecting Windows and opened it to find a different interface. Consumers had responded to the low price, he said - the Mini 10v retails for $299 online. "Now we are trying to be a little more explicit in our advertising," Finch said. "We are not seeing any technical reasons for why they are returning Linux machines so...we don't see a significant difference between the return rate for Windows versus the rate for Linux. We've been quite pleased with the stability and technical soundness of the Linux machines."

Re:in your face microsoft!

[Daengbo]

Not really. "For Home Use" > "Laptops and Minis" brings you to a page with the mini9, 10, and 10v on it. Click on the Mini 9 link and get an Ubuntu machine. Click on the others and look for the "Customize with Ubuntu" button.

I undid two mods just to post this correction.

Re:in your face microsoft!

[hairyfeet]

I see the Linux trolls modded me down. That is funny as hell. Waste you mods baby, I got karma to burn yeah!

That does NOT change the simple facts. Here are the FACTS. FACT- The three biggest retailers-Staples, best Buy, Walmart USA, don't sell Linux. FACT-The reason is you are looking at less than 20% support for the popular items being sold in those stores. FACT-Updates often break Linux, requiring CLI. Go to any Ubuntu forum after a release to see this in action. Sound is especially problematic. This simply rarely happens with Windows. FACT- support for Linux will DESTROY any profits gained by the lower price. It is simply easier to tell your customer 'google name of device XP Driver' instead of giving them some huge CLI mess that has to be perfectly spelled and capitalized and could screw things up worse if not typed in perfectly. "Clicky clicky, next next next" is simply easier for home users. That is of course if there even IS a driver, with in Linux is iffy if you don't research your ass off. Even Linux users will tell you to research your purchases. Do you HONESTLY think Windows users will research every purchase? Really?

So mod away baby, that does not change the facts. Linux is simply not ready for home users. It has too much CLI, it requires too much work to repair, too much research before making purchases, and then thanks to hardware revs even with research you may get boned. The simple fact is the $89 for XP Home or $139 for XP Pro 32/64 is simply cheaper than Linux, unless your hours of time are worthless. It isn't some conspiracy, or MSFT backing money trucks up to every retailer in America, it is simply economics. If the only users you get are those will to research and use CLI, then no problem. But retailers have found those users don't actually BUY retail, they buy online or build themselves. So why should they kill themselves and raise their costs for those that don't buy from them? Windows WORKS for home users and Linux DON'T. Sorry,but that is reality. No Sale.

Re:in your face microsoft!

[indiechild]

A "computer illiterate" person who also uses a DSLR and HD video camcorder -- that's pretty unusual!

Re:in your face microsoft!

[hairyfeet]

Debunked? Okay, hey, you want names, here you go. The three BIGGEST sellers at the local supercenter, according to the guy I know working the electronics desk. Here they are buddy!

1.-The Lexmark all in one, which is a HOT seller here. Thanks to Walgreen's refilling the carts for a whole $10 (hoping you'll shop while you're there) so they are cheap to buy ($39) AND to use. 2.-Wifi USB sticks, which I have found is becoming quite popular with those that have desktops as well as laptops. Never have to run a line again! Just use a USB Wifi stick and add another to your home network in minutes. 3.-USB TV Tuners This one came out of left feild, but since the switch to digital TV has become VERY hot, especially among laptop owners, but I have had desktop customers ask as well. they like being able to plug the stick in like a thumbdrive and have 'instant TV".

I'm sorry, I wish it wasn't so, and that support was as easy as Windows with regards to drivers, but that just ain't how it is s4m7, and I have to deal with today's reality. Maybe in a few years Linux will reah the "tipping point" but it just ain't there yet. there is still too much CLI, too many devices being sold today at the above retailers with ZERO Linux support, and the costs with supporting Linux simply eats all my profits and then some. I can't dump my tech support on some poor bastard in India, i have to do it. And at $75 an hour a few hours jumping through CLI when something breaks or wasting time on forums trying to find a driver that will work and it simply ends up cheaper to pay the "Windows Tax". Nothing personal Linux guys, it is just business.

Re:in your face microsoft!

[ajlisows]

If you state your comment in a funny enough manor then all sins are forgiven.

None of the manors I have ever been in weren't very funny at all. They were mostly impressive. I'll assume it is a matter of taste and next time I visit a manor I will state my comment hoping it is funny enough.

Re:in your face microsoft!

[Thinboy00]

...goes unusable when I turn on desktop effects (flashes off and on, slows down the machine) with an HIS Radeon HD4850 and the proprietary drivers from the ubuntu repos. ...

Don't turn on desktop effects on an old computer. Would you turn on Aero (in Vista) on mediocre hardware (you couldn't even put Vista on an old computer)?

Re:in your face microsoft!

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a new build. 4GB RAM, Q8400 Quad processor, ATI HD4850 with 512MB RAM. Definitely not an old machine we're talking about.

Re:in your face microsoft!

[Anonymous Coward]

Word to your mother, when you buy an Ubuntu desktop/laptop/notebook from Dell, they've already ensured the hardware is compatible.

It's like buying from Apple, if Apple was into brown and didn't rape their customers.

Re:in your face microsoft!

[hairyfeet]

I notice the Linux trolls modded me down again, but didn't respond. Why? Because they CAN'T! They can't because they know I am right! Your OS has been free for...what 15 years now? And according to the zealots it has been "ready for the desktop!" since 2005. That is FOUR YEARS where you can't even give your product away for FREE while OSX has a $1000 entry point and has been kicking your ass year after year after year! Why? Why is Windows, at $89 minimum, kicking your ass? Why don't OEM want anything to do with Linux? Why is it when Woot! offered a Linux and a Windows XP Home netbook deal, that the XP one sold out in less than 2 hours, while the Linux one, with a cheaper price and better hardware, couldn't sell out at all?

I'll tell you why, it is because you won't LISTEN to your damned customers, that's why? MSFT listened, folks said "Vista sucks" and they said they would fix it with Win7, and guess what? They did. Apple listened. Their users said 'we want easy and intuitive!" and guess what? apple has a whole "dream factory" whose whole damned job is to make their GUI the essence of ease of use. So when users say "We don't want CLI and don't like it!" what does Linux do?

They get flamed or get response like this and why is that? Because Linux geeks are delusional and refuse to face reality, that's why. News Flash: NOBODY wants CLI but you, okay? I don't care if you think it is the second coming of Christ, and it is the bestest, most fastest, most beautiful thing in all the fucking world, the home users will never ever in a million fucking years touch that shit, okay? Is that so hard to understand? Which do YOU think is easier for a non technical user? Launching something from the GUI and checking a checkbox? Or typing this long list of Unix gibberish that if they don't get the spelling AND the case AND the correct order right won't do shit, or worse completely bone the system?

But if you don't want to accept that, fine and dandy. Please enjoy your 1% and gripe all you want about MSFT conspiracies. But please don't spew that "Linux is ready for the desktop!" bullshit when those of us working retail and actually putting products into consumers hands know better. Windows XP works with every product you can buy in the big three retailers. Apple has these nice things called "Apple stores" where Geniuses will hold the consumers hand and help them all along the way. Linux? If you don't research your living ass off you'll end up with a paperweight and some asshat going "LOL Lexbark! LOL Windblowz". Yeah, that "free as in beer" don't feel like a bargain then, huh?

Re:in your face microsoft!

[Barsteward]

Unlike Microsoft??

Re:in your face microsoft!

[Lennie]

Microsoft isn't a supplier of Dell ? Interresting, I wonder how they get all those 'legal' windows licenses.

Re:in your face microsoft!

[Lennie]

They ARE on the frontpage, just look in the 'for home' menu: under laptops and mini's, you'll get a page with a column, mini's and when you click on the mini 9 listed their you'll go to a page which says: you can get it with Windows or Ubuntu.

It may not say: 'Get your Ubuntu here !' on the frontpage, but it doesn't say 'get your Windows here !' either.

Re:in your face microsoft!

[capnkr]

My current system is a Lenovo Ideapad. Everything worked out of the box - bluetooth, webcam, sound, wireless, flash card reader, so on and so forth. As it did with my prior laptop, a Toshiba. The only CLI computing I do commonly is the occasional 'ping' to see where upline a network is having a problem. Sometimes I'll use it for image batch processing or converting, things like that. But there are GUI's which do that, they're just a lot slower and less specifically configurable, IMO. I've been MS-Free for over 10 years, so I do remember well the days when installing Linux = massive and regular CLI use, that's when I cut my teeth. But those days are ***LONG*** gone. I do keep around whatever MS OS is installed on my own system, for the sole reason that I have a legal license to use under VBox in order to use IE so that I can see how it is breaking the pages I develop.

I frequently use Linux LiveCD's on clients computers (which run the full gamut of OEM's, with OS'es from Win98 to Vista, far many more combinations of soft/hardware than any retailer has in stock) in order to recover data or kill nasty badware that has taken over their MS OS installs. No problems, the hardware in far more than 80% of these systems also works out of the box. I would say that it is north of 90% of typical OEM hardware which has native support in Linux.

A few months ago, a friend brought me his wifes Dell laptop. It had been owned, for the 3rd or 4th time. I think you could safely guess that she is obviously *not* a CLI geek. So, again, I put Win back on, but this time, I partitioned the drive, and dropped Ubuntu 8.10 on a second partition. I told him to have her use Win *only* for work documents *only* when needed, and Ubuntu when at all possible for work, and for when she wants to venture out onto the web. Two weeks ago, at the birthday party of another friend (a lawyer whose office I am slowly converting to Linux), out of the blue when the lawyer mentioned my 'Linux project' at his office, she vociferously and with great force expressed her opinion that Linux is the best thing she has ever seen on a computer, and that she now detests having to use Windows. I could go on about what she said (like she did - she spoke for a good 5 minutes), but you get the point. And part of that is this: she has no idea what a "CLI" is. I have had similar results with other people as well.

Your hatred for a simple monochromatic textual based interface is interesting, in a clinical sort of way. I wonder why it is so, why you have to spew such venom and rage when you think about it. It's kind of scary, and definitely unreasonable. Doing remote support, to save gas and time, I frequently have Windows users - total non-geeky grandpa/ma's, suits, housewives, etc - drop to the command line so that I can tell if it is an issue I need to do hands-on, or to tell where the problem might be coming from. None of them ever freak out because they see white text on a black background. Some of them even ask me to leave instructions for them to do the same without needing to make a phone call to me. Maybe if you would try using it sometime, you would find that it is not something you need to be scared of, and that it in fact can actually be quite a useful tool.

And BTW - I am neither delusional, nor do I refuse to face reality. I don't push Linux on everyone. There are many places/applications where it is in the better interest of myself or the client that they continue to use a MS OS. But at those places where it is not an essential, I have found many times that Linux as an alternative results in a happy customer whose IT billing drops quite significantly, once they move away from proprietary solutions. These folks know they can call me and I will gladly give them a free consult when they need to buy some hardware, or find an application for a specific purpose. Rarely do I send them to a retail outlet, because it is my own experience that has shown me that the people working at computer retail don't really know a whole lot

Re:in your face microsoft!

[Svartalf]

Wrong... If you look at the BUTTONS on the page in question, they give you the option to "Customize with Ubuntu" on the third one over. Spotted the button right away.

Re:in your face microsoft!

[erikina]

This is ridiculous. Hairfeet's point (who incidentally got troll mods) is that the only person who ends up with Ubuntu is someone looking for it. If you have to press "Customize with Ubuntu" (which is only on one out of 4 options) and not an option in the standard "Customize", then the person is seeking out Linux.

Come back when Linux is an option that people pick to save money, and then lets compare return rates. And this is posted by someone whos running Fedora rawhide.

Re:in your face microsoft!

[Zero__Kelvin]

"Now tell me with a straight face that those devices are supported in Linux."

All those devices are supported in Linux. (said with a straight face)

Unfortunately people have two very bad habits here

1. They use the term Linux generically without specifying a distributioin
2. They reference Ubuntu or assume it when they discuss issues, when there are much better distributions available

For almost every piece of hardware out there I can find a Linux distribution where it works, and another where it doesn't. Use a truly good Linux distribution like Mandriva and your devices will all work just fine.

"My time is $75 an hour ..."

... and you couldn't get those things working? You are seriously overpaid ;-) That being said, my skills actually justify that amount, and I save $150.00+ every time I install Linux rather than Windows since it takes at least two hours longer to install Windows and all the apps needed than to install Linux and all the apps needed. That is just the savings out of the gate. Every person I have introduced to Linux, including many virtual computer illiterates, experiences significantly less problems than they did with Windows, and they thank me profusely.

Re:in your face microsoft!

[Zero__Kelvin]

"Not really... stores also say there really isn't a demand for Linux power computers, which is why they aren't in BestBuy."

Yeah, right, that's the reason. It doesn't have anything to do with the fact that Microsoft excercised their monopoly to remove choices from the consumer by insisting that if a store sells one computer with Windows they all have to have Windows on them. There is low demand because Best Buy has always sold only Windows boxes, so the typical computer user thinks that there is no choice. It is a funny thing. If I lay out several gemstones of medium value and keep the diamond hidden then allow someone to take their pick of any gemstone I own they never pick the diamond! I have determined that the demand for diamonds is very low based on this fact ;-)

Re:in your face microsoft!

[hairyfeet]

How is that Lexmark all in one treating you? How about that funky Wifi USB stick (thanks Braodcom!)? Or the USB TV tuner? I so rarely get to use this in a sentence...WOOOOSH! If you research your living ass off? or stick to the high dollar stuff bought on the Internet? Linux is NOT a problem. Tell you what, I'll prove beyond a shadow of a doubt Linux isn't ready for the average Joe. Ready? Remember no cheating!

From this moment on until the experiment is over your name is Joe and you are NOT a geek. You don't do research, hell you don't even know the difference between an AMD and an Intel. To you the PC is a tool to get the job done, nothing more. Ready? Grab a pen and piece of paper, have them handy, now go to Staples.com, Best Buy.com, and Walmart.com. You there yet? Good. Now buy these three items, and if you want to be accurate buy two on price alone, and remember NO research! Okay here is your shopping list- an all in one printer, a USB TV Tuner, a USB Wifi stick. Remember you're Joe, not Linux geek, so you don't know about lexmark, so if it is the cheapest buy it. Now go on and look up "support" in the Ubuntu forums. Refuse ANY that "support" consists of a pile of Unix gibberish, because Joe will just fuck that up royally. Go on, I'll wait..../listens to new Rammstein/

Total fail, huh? I'm betting you didn't get a SINGLE cart through there without at least one "gotcha" in there, did you? So while it is nice that you are willing to waste countless unpaid hours supporting those around you, my time costs $75 an hour, no exceptions. How many hours of CLI voodoo dancing do you think it takes to make the "Windows Tax" a better deal? The correct answer is two. And believe me, a single Lexmark all in one can suck up two hours without even printing a single page. Good luck on getting scan or fax to do shit. And you want to know why I hate the CLI voodoo shit? Because it costs me M.O.N.E.Y that's why! Your average Joe is not going to be comfortable doing that Unix gibberish, or worse will fuck something up royally when they don't get the spelling AND the case AND the order right, and then guess who has to fix it if it is still under warranty? That would be me.

That is why Linux is a FAIL in retail, because the support will eat alive any profits you may have made from not having a "windows tax". If you want to waste YOUR time in unpaid support, fine and dandy. Average Joes don't buy extended warranties, nor do they buy support contracts. And Linux geeks don't buy retail. So why should I support their OS again? The one that has less than 20% support for the items at my local supercenter, and that is counting those that "support" consists of Unix gibberish or supposedly hacking some driver that was never meant for a piece of hardware to "kinda sorta" work if the moon is full and RMS smiles on you? Correct answer: No reason AT ALL. The same conclusion that Walmart reached when they pulled the gPC off the shelves. For you Linux is "free as in beer and freedom" but for my customers? It is "free as in worthless". Sorry, NO SALE

Re:in your face microsoft!

[CrossChris]

Lexmark?

That's the company that gives away their crappy printers so that they can sell their vastly overpriced ink! Their "printers" are also designed to fail just beyond the warranty period...

Re:in your face microsoft!

[hairyfeet]

Wow, talk about the FUD. Where did you get YOUR info from? Mine is on year 5 right now, and that is for a $39 special I picked up while in school. As for ink? Hasn't been a problem in years. Walgreen's now refills those for a whopping $10 a cart. They'll even touch up photos for you or make prints while you wait.

So while you Linux guys may be boned by Lexmark, they actually work quite well for Windows users. For $39-69 depending on model you get a printer/scanner/fax that will last you anywhere from 2-5 years, depending on the amount of wear it gets. And if you have the carts refilled it is $10 each, or if you forget and let them dry up? The price jumps to a whopping $17 at Walmart. But don't take my word for it, go to Walmart, or staples, or Best Buy. Have them show you the top five PC products. Then look them up for Linux support. I'm willing to bet you will be LUCKY if you get 25% support. When I tried it the number was 20%, and that was being generous and counting tons of CLI voodoo gibberish or hacking a driver for a different model and supposedly making it "kinda sorta" work as "support".

Linux has great server and enterprise support because millions is being spent to ensure that it does. Home gear? Expecting some nerd in his basement to reverse engineer the thousands of new home products being released on a daily basis is just delusional.

Re:in your face microsoft!

[Anonymous Coward]

:rolls_eyes: @ the same tired, old, repetitive dog-and-pony show of 'pick/take these three specific things that I name, and they won't work' as proof that Linux isn't any good...

You just love to post this same old drivel everywhere, don't you?

How about instead address the 90%+ of hardware that DOES work natively with Linux? Oh, that stuff, that you probably don't know about, being a hater and all... Well, it doesn't suit your agenda so much to talk about *that*, does it?

I am starting to understand that in all likelihood you just do not have the real-world experience to talk intelligently about what does or does not work under Linux, and how to apply this knowledge and the capabilities of different OS'es to your clients needs. In fact, I'd bet you cannot even discuss one particular distro, much less a broader span which would be more reflective of the work done and capabilities demonstrated by the wide world of Linux developers. Instead, you have latched on to these three pretty much irrelevant products, and they form the entire basis for your fear and angst (along with that unreasoning CLI paranoia you have, which could provide grist for a whole 'nother post...). It's funny, that. And at the same time, it is sad, that your client base is a bunch of cheap/broke people who watch TV on their computers, systems which are so old they don't have native support for wireless...

Your post does, however, brilliantly illustrate the point I expressed earlier about retail droids, their lack of experience beyond what they believe from the marketing mumbo-jumbo on the box and in such things as 'reviews' that are bought and paid for by the product advertisers in glossy consumer PC mags.

Good day to you, and good luck with your sales career!

Re:in your face microsoft!

[hairyfeet]

Oh please! I love how when the people refuse your crap you Linux nerds go all elitist on them. And I quote Mr. Bigot-"it is sad, that your client base is a bunch of cheap/broke people who watch TV on their computers, systems which are so old they don't have native support for wireless.."

The TV Tuners are quite popular because most of my customers bought big ass $1000+ screen for their PCs and now want to watch TV on them. Considering the superior resolution, what a fucking surprise. And the USB Wifi? How many desktops have you seen with native wifi support? Not very damned many. With the USB wifi they can drop another machine onto their network in seconds from anywhere in the home without ugly wires everywhere. I guess they must be stupid for not wanting to ugly up their expensive homes with Cat6 huh?

And as for "90% support"? Allow me to say this...BWA HA HA HA HA HA HA! Can I have some of what you are smoking? because it must be some seriously good shit. Want proof? Bestbuy.com, Staples.com, Walmart.com. look for yourself if you don't believe me. Those three retailers move more computer product than any Linux geek could ever hope to. look up their products while having Ubuntu forums in a new tab. look up support for yourself. if you are having a GREAT day and RMS is smiling on you you have MAYBE 35%, and that is if you count 'support" as pages of Unix gibberish that may or may not work or having to recompile a driver that was never made for a product in the hopes it will kinda sorta work.

The only one not facing reality and just fucking sad here is you. There is a REASON that Linux kicks ass on servers and has good enterprise support: It is because millions of dollars, let me repeat that: MILLIONS of dollars are spent by the likes of Red Hat and Novell to support Linux on servers. They also have the support of the major server vendors like HP, who with their giant patent war chests can afford to release code without fear of patent trolls. Since RMS and the "source code or nothing!" brigade refuse to allow Linux to have a stable ABI, and hell I could argue that Linux doesn't actually have a stable ANYTHING, from the kernel on up, then you can't honestly expect any hardware manufacturers to support you, when the cost is so high.

With Windows I can write 4 drivers and have 15 YEARS of Windows support- Win98/ME, Win2k/XP32, WinXP 64/Vista 64, and WinVista/7 32. Done, how easy was that? Can you sit there and honestly tell me that a binary driver from even 5 years ago will work out of the box now, much less for over a decade? This is why linux will fail. It will fail because of bad attitude elitist crap from guys like you that expect users to learn CLI because it is "leet", it will fail because trying to support it will suck up any profits gained by lack of a "Windows tax" and it will fail because most manufacturers of home equipment will NEVER ever support you, because you refuse to allow binary drivers that 'write once, work for years" like Windows. But tell you what, in 5 years when Win7 is everywhere and Linux is still stuck at less than 3%, be sure you tell yourself it is because users are "deh stupidz" because they don't want that unstable CLI mess that is Linux. You got right ahead and tell yourself that. Meanwhile I will be taking these nice checks from customers who hand them over with a smile on their faces. Because unlike your "free as in beer and freedom" my Windows boxes work with everything sold at the big three. Too bad you can't say the same.

IdeaStorm's Top Ideas

[eldavojohn]

The end of the article plugs Dell's IdeaStorm which has these as top ideas:

1. 115170: Pre-Installed OpenOffice | alternative to MS Works & MS Office
2. 105120: Have Firefox pre-installed as default browser
3. 103950: No Extra Software Option
4. 101110: Pre-Installed Linux | Ubuntu | Fedora | OpenSUSE | Multi-Boot
5. 86980: Provide Linux Drivers for all your Hardware
6. 72510: No OS Preloaded
7. 53180: Sell Linux PCs Worldwide - not only the United States
8. 46690: Stripped down, fast Linux Box
9. 39970: coreboot (formerly LinuxBIOS) instead of proprietary BIOS

So maybe only open source users know about IdeaStorm? Regardless, Dell is staring down hundreds of thousands of users looking for more options that should honestly be very easy to provide. So if the returns are a "non-issue" and are similar to Windows returns then what's the deal, Dell?

Re:IdeaStorm's Top Ideas

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

I suspect that, while the enthusiasm on ideastorm is real, it isn't wildly representative.

Think about the people who are actually passionate about computer related stuff: You've got the Linux and/or FOSS guys, the hardcore gamers, the Mac-heads, some true Microsofties, and that's about it. Almost everybody else uses them, and wants them to work; but isn't going to spend their leisure time posting on some Dell messageboard about it.

Of those groups, the hardcore gamers and the Mac-heads wouldn't give Dell the time of day if they were on fire(in aggregate, obviously there are gamers with Dells; and the Mini-9 hackintosh crew; but the more passionately you are a member of those groups, the less likely you are to be running a Dell), while the Microsofties can already get all the MS software they want from Dell, so they have no reason to complain. Linux/FOSS enthusiasts are pretty much the only ones I'd expect to show up.

Re:IdeaStorm's Top Ideas

[pzs]

You say that, but did you look at the numbers on that page? The OpenOffice recommendation has more than 100,000 upvotes. Why would 100,000 people who don't care show up on Dell's webpage to click on that arrow?

I work in a University where Dell is the main approved supplied for PC kit. I had to buy a work machine with XP even though the first thing I did was to install Linux. I wonder how many other forced-to-buy-Dell or don't-know-anything-but-Dell people there are out there who might buy FOSS if they could and it was cheaper?

Sure, a majority of people may not be interested in Linux or OpenOffice. But a significant minority might take the opportunity to go for an alternative to MS if one was made available.

Re:IdeaStorm's Top Ideas

[Desler]

The OpenOffice recommendation has more than 100,000 upvotes. Why would 100,000 people who don't care show up on Dell's webpage to click on that arrow?

Because we all know that online ballots are never stuffed and each vote is always from a unique person...

Re:IdeaStorm's Top Ideas

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm part of the significant minority running Linux on Dells. I was just explaining why I was utterly unsurprised that there were absolutely no non-FOSS-related proposals at the top of the list. And, I must say, I am quite surprised that MS Works is the default you-were-too-cheap-for-office pack-in from Dell.

Re:IdeaStorm's Top Ideas

[operator_error]

Why would 100,000 people [with valid Dell site user-registrations] who don't care show up on Dell's webpage to click on that arrow?

100,000 registered folks seems compelling to me, and most anyone listening, Dell. I tried to click the up arrow, but user-registration is required first.

Still, I think M$ forces Dell's & Asus' (etc.) hand by hidden fees & bulk-discounts related to the M$ tax.

Re:IdeaStorm's Top Ideas

[ivoras]

IdeaStorm looks completely useless as the top ideas (>100,000 votes) have been summarily discarded - actually any and all good, radical ideas have been discarded and it looks like the most common reason is "we make more money this way".

Re:IdeaStorm's Top Ideas

[mpapet]

Dell is staring down hundreds of thousands of users looking for more options that should honestly be very easy to provide.

I can tell you from personal experience, none of those things are 'easy.' Yes, some of them are very easy for you and I. But we're talking about a huge unwieldy corporate machine where every good intention/new idea from the bottom of the org chart is unwelcome and punished.

FYI, for most people at any sufficiently large organization, the customer is at the very bottom of the org chart.

If the CEO drove these changes without endless, mind-numbing discussion and rooms full of people notifying her of the 'dangers' it would be a different story. But that's just not how it works at that level.

Coreboot would be at the very top of my list. From there, the user is free-er to do what they please with the computer. Words cannot describe how important that project is to the future of computing. Please, go help coreboot out.

Re:IdeaStorm's Top Ideas

[Lumpy]

you did not put the rest on the list...

They get wierd after #15...

16. Sell it with a free pony.
17. Can I get mine in plaid?
18. I want fur everywhere on it.
19. Get rid of the keyboard and put a mouse in the middle.
20. PONIES!!!!!!!
21. Stop making them so confusing, What it is with having the whole alphabet on the keyboard.
22. Send it via Email instead of FedEx.
23. Make it waterproof, I'm on my third one because of spills.

Re:IdeaStorm's Top Ideas

[fortyonejb]

You say that, but did you look at the numbers on that page? The OpenOffice recommendation has more than 100,000 upvotes. Why would 100,000 people who don't care show up on Dell's webpage to click on that arrow?

Before your misinformation gets too far, a little clarification, Dell's IdeaStorm increments by 10 for each vote, meaning it has received 10,000 upvotes, not 100,000.

Re:IdeaStorm's Top Ideas

[thetoadwarrior]

Idea storm covers everything and in fact the Open Office & firefox suggestions are for Windows PCs. The deal is that Dell, as a whole, isn't as good as they used to be and they need ideas to improve everything.

Re:IdeaStorm's Top Ideas

[janwedekind]

That's interesting. I know many people who would purchase dual-boot if it where available. For cross-platform developers it is a must and for experienced Windows users it makes the switch less painful. And I would be really interested in a pre-installed tripple-boot providing XP/Linux/MacOS ;)

Re:IdeaStorm's Top Ideas

[mwolfe38]

#21 reminds me of this fail: http://failblog.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/fail-owned-racism-fail.jpg?w=452&h=201

Re:IdeaStorm's Top Ideas

[joocemann]

I agree. It appears to be akin to the recent town hall meetings about healthcare where there are groups of people standing up and denouncing social health care --- which turns out to be plotted and funded by big med insurance companies (reported on slashdot a couple weeks ago). And with 60-70% of the population in the US consistently desiring single-payer in polls.

The townhall meetings are not representative.

Re:IdeaStorm's Top Ideas

[Yvanhoe]

Coreboot is hard, but Dell has the bad habit of installing thousands of software on every machine it sells. Adding Firefox and OpenOffice to the list seems pretty straightforward. OpenOffice and Firefox marketshare are far bigger than the computer enthusiast. Many people know that open office is the "Microsoft Office that is free". The fact that Dell leaves so many clients unsatisfied for a feature that is easy to add is a strong indication that the issues are contractual and commercial, not technical.

Re:IdeaStorm's Top Ideas

[Yfrwlf]

There are lots and lots of advocates of Open Office, so wanting it as an option for when you buy a computer from Dell is very simple to understand. My parents being two advocates, and they have no idea what "open source" or Linux is. All they know is that it's free and they teach classes on using Open Office to save others money. I've tried to explain what "realm" they are in, that there is a lot more open source software out there than just that, and to explain to them how open source works, but I still don't think they get it. They didn't even find it with my help at all. I had no idea they were using it and teaching classes on it for several years before I finally found out.

Re:IdeaStorm's Top Ideas

[thePowerOfGrayskull]

You say that, but did you look at the numbers on that page? The OpenOffice recommendation has more than 100,000 upvotes. Why would 100,000 people who don't care show up on Dell's webpage to click on that arrow? I w

That's kind of the point. It's not 100,000 random people showing up. It's 100,000 people who have some vested interest - who are more likely to be OSS proponents.

Re:IdeaStorm's Top Ideas

[kusmin]

**Dell's IdeaStorm increments by 10 for each vote, meaning it has received 10,000 upvotes, not 100,000****
Clever move, I only hope other people won't increment the increment..

Summary

[MindStalker]

Essentially most of the initial high return rate was due to unclear advertising leading people to believe they were buying a window machine and getting linux. Dell has cleared up the advertising to make sure people know what they are buying and the high return rate has stopped.

Re:Summary

[CannonballHead]

So in other words, now we should pay attention to sales rates of Windows vs. Linux, not just return rates?

Re:Summary

[HermMunster]

The rates of sales are not relevant in that Microsoft is a monopoly, one convicted of criminal predatory practices, which forced hardware manufacturers into illegal contracts to exclude. That gave them the monopoly, and in case you don't know what a monopoly is and how hard it is to compete with a monopoly you might want to check up on that.

The only relevant statistic that I can see is one that tracks the rate of behavioral change as it relates to buying an alternative. Not in the number of sales but in the increase of sales of the alternative non-monopolistic products.

Re:Summary

[Desler]

one convicted of criminal predatory practices

If they were convicted of criminal predatory practices who exactly went to jail?

Re:Summary

[sbeckstead]

A few billion of MS's profits. Well they went somewhere, just not to M$. And whether MS fanboys want to admit it or not what MS did is criminal.

Re:Summary

[Anonymous Coward]

The corporation went to jail. It's still there now. It's also in a prison within the EU for bundling IE.
I know it sounds silly but it points out how giving a fictional entity personal rights (corporation)
without personal liability is equally silly.

Re:Summary

[Anonymous Coward]

They were not convicted in criminal trial. They were "found liable" in a civil suit.

Re:Summary

[pablomme]

Microsoft Bob. He had it coming...

Re:Summary

[bogotronix]

To understand the microsoft case you need to understand the ATT breakup. The Bell System (ATT) was granted an illegal monopoly, by the US government, in secret, that lasted about 100 years. The government desperately wanted telephones in everyone's house using a common system and Bell put the screws to them, demanding a monopoly similar to what the government had given the railroad industries.

Fast forward to the ATT breakup. After 100 years, the rest of the world were making products and innovating (answering machines, faxes, etc.)--products for public consumption. As far as telephony goes, America was starting to look pretty stale and primitive. ATT had a government supported lock on every phone line, and only their overpriced products could be legally attached to that line. Creating or attaching unauthorized devices to an ATT line was a crime and many people were punished.

Finally ATT was broken up and things like cubby hole paper messaging were replaced by modern systems, etc...the world changed.

In the MS case they basically have the same issues. They have secret APIs that no one else can use, public APIs that crash or are unstable if you use them, mountains of internal memos on how they break other companies' software to favor their own. It's illegal to clone windows--patents, copyright, etc, as we see enforced everyday. Many people believe MS was handed a similar "100 year" secret monopoly by the government just as they did for ATT--the goal being a common OS in everyone's house.

Now fast forward to the trial. It was a slam-dunk--all kinds of memos, emails, perjury showing MS committed multiple crimes. In fact, a smaller company in Florida, a grocery chain committed similar crimes, was chained shut and had their business licenses voided around the same time. No business license no sale--but I digress.

The penalty for MS was a breakup of the company. However, the Judge, Thomas Jackson, with decades of legal experience, conveniently provided evidence of bias within weeks of the trial's end, and the penalty was thrown out.

The incoming Bush Administration put a "paper tiger" Federal Judge (Kathleen Kotar-Kelly) in charge of overseeing what feeble penalties remained, and she has consistently let MS continue with their old behaviors.

Corporate criminals rarely get jail time, unless the government wants to parade them in front of the cameras for PR purposes. The wealthy can afford the best lawyers and withstand the massive cost of extended trials. And it does usually pay off in lower penalties and fines. In terms of crime, usually only those convicted of physically harming people go to prison, others usually pay hefty fines. MS has certainly been convicted in Europe and paid substantial fines.

Re:Summary

[HermMunster]

The Justice Department handles criminal activity.

Re:Summary

[cyber-vandal]

I didn't realise all crimes resulted in a custodial sentence - especially when the perpetrator, thanks to corporate personhood, does not physically exist.

Re:Summary

[jmyers]

The only reason MS did not suffer any real damage from the trial is that it came to a conclusion at about the same time the internet stock bubble burst. If Bush's administration had kept up the pressure and penalized MS it would have been an even harder blow to the stock market. The powers that be decided to drop the issue.

Re:Summary

[Anonymous Coward]

Nobody ever goes to jail, because companies are what's called a legal person. This thing just rids the decision-making people in a company of any responsibility for their actions. They did get convicted in the EU though, huge fines.

Re:Summary

[Attila Dimedici]

The original AT&T was not an illegal monopoly. They were granted an exception to monopoly laws by the government. However, when the Personal Computer Age began, AT&T saw the opportunity to make even greater profits by entering into many of the new business opportunities that were arising (among them becoming an ISP). The Federal Government told AT&T they could either keep their monopoly on telephone service or they could get into these new businesses. They chose to spin off their local telephone services (after losing several legal battles with the Justice Department over its interpretation of their status) and attempt to enter these new businesses.
Oh yes, the courts had ruled against AT&T on issues like fax machines and modems well before the breakup (although those rulings had something to do with why AT&T accepted the breakup rather than be locked out of other businesses).

Re:Summary

[Anonymous Coward]

And just because Linux Fanboys don't want to admit it, these so-called convictions were nothing more than a political stunt that only lead to one thing.

Lobbying.

Yay.

Re:Summary

[sbeckstead]

Hardly worth the effort to reply but "What?" I don't think any of those words mean what you think they do.
In what way were the corporate convictions against MS "so-called"? They were, I assure you, quite real. Remember that a corporation can be convicted of a crime and no one go to jail. However fines are a very real sanction against a criminal corporation.
A political stunt no, not even close. MS was convicted of illegal restraint of trade and mis-use of a monopoly. Don't believe me look it up. I may not have the exact statutes that they violated but violate them they did. There is nothing "so-called" about them.

Re:Summary

[bogotronix]

I have to disagree with you. My brother worked for a startup that was selling products overseas but could not sell them in the United States due to the AT&T land line monopoly. It had nothing to do with OS/ISP issues and everything to do with the hardware you could legally connect to the phone lines. After the breakup he was able to finally sell his devices in the USA, and the company was bought by a baby bell shortly after the case ended. Prior to the breakup every device had to be approved by the Bell/AT&T processes or you could be arrested/prosecuted for connecting an unauthorized device to the wall socket.

Re:Summary

[JumpDrive]

I don't know. AC is the network administrator at KFC. He's got the network and computers working so well, he spends most of his time working the drive through window.

Re:Summary

[Attila Dimedici]

Sorry but the ability of AT&T to keep you from attaching things to the telephones was ended in 1968 with the FCC "Carterphone" decision. AT&T wasn't broken up until 1984.

Re:Summary

[bogotronix]

Sure enough there are documents, lawsuits, etc. but often the real world does not reflect those decisions.

In the early 80's I visited several job sites. Several of those had paper and pigeon-hole message systems leased from AT&T. They also had computers and printers, but they could not be connected to the phone lines.

These messaging warehouses (for Dr's and lawyers) had an odd workflow where paper messages when from phone to pigeon-hole and as time permitted to computer entry and storage/backup.

At the time I was told this was for legal reasons--per their contract with AT&T the message storage systems could not be connected to the telco lines because they were not AT&T equipment.. They had to maintain physical separation from all non-AT&T products.

The legal cases you mention may have held force in some situations but the day-to-day reality of business owners, at least from what I saw and experienced, is not reflected by that casework.

Several business owners I met complained bitterly about paying Western Electric more per month for a small phone bank than their office rent.

Within two years, post break-up, the computers were attached and the pigeon-hole racks were gone.

Playing with words

[BadAnalogyGuy]

Microsoft's Turner said that Linux netbooks are being returned at a rate 4 to 5 times higher than Windows netbooks. Dell hasn't disputed this fact at all. Linux netbooks *are* being returned at a very high rate, and Dell's Finch says so right in the article:

Where consumers have returned machines, Finch said, it wasn't because of technical problems but because they'd bought a low-priced machine expecting Windows and opened it to find a different interface.

The difference is that people are returning the Windows netbooks because of technical reasons (broken hardware) and Linux netbooks because they don't want Linux.

That's a win for Microsoft, no matter how you spin it.

Re:Playing with words

[HermMunster]

I think you are missing the point. Dell says they are not receiving returns except at the same rate. He means that linux netbooks are being returned at the same rate as windows netbook returns. Now, Dell is the company that sells and accepts the returns. Microsoft has nothing to do with it. Microsoft has no first hand knowledge. Since they can't count Linux returns, as it has nothing to do with Windows returns, Microsoft would be clueless except maybe by receiving information from Microsoft funded reports.

Bottom line is that Dell is giving facts whereas Microsoft is giving conjecture.

Re:Playing with words

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not a win for Microsoft when the customer is to stupid to read the box.

Re:Playing with words

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually. Technically. The article says the same amount of returns for each... and I bet they sell a lot more windows machines, still...

Re:Playing with words

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not a win for Microsoft when the customer is to stupid to read the box.

Really? I always figured they loved customers like that. They're probably their most loyal userbase since they don't know any better and certainly aren't going to try alternative OSes because that would involve too much "complicated computer stuff".

Re:Playing with words

[digitalunity]

It doesn't mean what Dell or Microsoft wants it to mean.

High initial returns on Linux netbooks is most likely due to inaccurate advertising. The market for Linux netbooks is primarily for people who already know what Linux is and desire it. Selling Linux netbooks to people seeking Windows isn't a good business plan. Dell thought it would be profitable and it wasn't.

It doesn't mean Linux sucks either, just that people prefer to stick with Windows because it's familiar-and we already knew that.

Re:Playing with words

[jmpeax]

No you're missing the point. The point is this: Linux netbooks are being returned at a higher rate than Windows netbooks. All the Dell guy is saying is that the reason for these returns is not that Linux doesn't work, but that people bought the netbooks wanting/expecting Windows, only to find an unfamiliar interface. They then proceeded to return the netbooks.

Look at it this way:

Good News For Linux: Linux is performing well on the netbooks and Dell is happy with them (in the article Finch says "We've been quite pleased with the stability and technical soundness of the Linux machines.").

Bad News For Linux: People still want Windows instead and it appears that Windows is also performing well on the netbooks.

Re:Playing with words

[CGameProgrammer]

Not sure why this was modded 'funny' since it's correct. Furthermore, if the same number of Linux machines are being returned as Windows machines, then that means a significantly higher *percentage* of Linux machines are being returned. Also remember that most people don't know what Linux is and certainly not what Ubuntu is. So even if Dell says it has Ubuntu on it, they assume it's a Windows machine with some mysterious additional software on it.

Re:Playing with words

[Angst Badger]

That's a win for Microsoft, no matter how you spin it.

Well, maybe. The open source ecosystem has long since become large enough to be self-sustaining, so it's questionable how much it matters that Microsoft still has a majority of the market share. If MS went bankrupt tomorrow, it would be a minor win for Linux but mostly a huge win for Apple, and Apple's behavior as a company suggests strongly that they would be no less unpleasant as a near-monopoly than Microsoft currently is.

The important thing to me is that I have multiple free (in both senses) alternatives to MS and that those are not likely to go away in the foreseeable future. Would I like to buy a laptop without the Microsoft tax. Sure, but then, I pretty much already can, since I usually buy year-old off-lease corporate laptops at a steep discount -- being neither a hardcore gamer nor a videographer, most machines have been more than fast enough for everything else for several years now.

If the whole Free/Open Source Software movement was a battle for our freedom, we already won, and won decisively. The battle against Microsoft's very existence? Who cares? Odds are, Microsoft will be around for a long time to come, and waiting for it to die is like waiting for Apple or one of the *BSDs or any other stable niche offering to die: time better spent having actual fun and getting real work done.

Besides, it's not like Dell's products or their customer support are very good to begin with. When I can buy generic, standard laptop parts to build my own laptop as well as I can build my own desktop boxes, then I'll get excited. Until then, the token gestures of companies selling proprietary, closed hardware are really nothing to become overly concerned about.

Re:Playing with words

[DrJimbo]

Actually. Technically. The article says the same amount of returns for each... and I bet they sell a lot more windows machines, still...

From TFA:

... we don't see a significant difference between the return rate for Windows versus the rate for Linux.

So technically the article says return rate. Earlier the (very short) FA talked about the number of returns being the same but I believe that the explicit mention of rate clears up any possible ambiguity. A marketing manager might easily use the word number when he meant numbers or rate but his use of return rate seems completely unambiguous.

Re:Playing with words

[Attila Dimedici]

Microsoft's Turner said that Linux netbooks are being returned at a rate 4 to 5 times higher than Windows netbooks. Dell hasn't disputed this fact at all. Linux netbooks *are* being returned at a very high rate, and Dell's Finch says so right in the article:

Where consumers have returned machines, Finch said, it wasn't because of technical problems but because they'd bought a low-priced machine expecting Windows and opened it to find a different interface.

The difference is that people are returning the Windows netbooks because of technical reasons (broken hardware) and Linux netbooks because they don't want Linux.

That's a win for Microsoft, no matter how you spin it.

From TFA: "we don't see a significant difference between the return rate for Windows versus the rate for Linux." So, yes Dell has disputed Microsoft's assertion. A return rate 4 to 5 times higher would be a significant difference.
So, it is not a win for Microsoft, no matter how you spin it.

Re:Playing with words

[Desler]

Dell says they are not receiving returns except at the same rate.

No, that's not what they are saying. If they both have the same amount of returns and because Linux sales are smaller, the Linux sales return rate would be larger. This is basic mathematics. Let's work out a simple example to show this by comparing return figures of the same amount between 2 products that sell different amounts of total product:

1 return per 100 total sales = 1% return rate. 1 return per 10 total sales = 10% return rate.

Re:Playing with words

[Sandbags]

No, its ignorant users not checking the specs before they click "order" is all. They find the cheapest machine on Dell.com and buy it without care, and when that machine arrives and doesn't run Windows, they send it back, and pay a restocking fee.

Many of these people also return their cheap windows boxes when they find out it can't run the games even their old computer could, but unfortunately most of them find out too late, as they'll have had the machine more than 14 days before they get too far into using it.

Re:Playing with words

[BadAnalogyGuy]

While we're quote mining, let's look at the full quote:

"We are not seeing any technical reasons for why they are returning Linux machines so...we don't see a significant difference between the return rate for Windows versus the rate for Linux. We've been quite pleased with the stability and technical soundness of the Linux machines."

Why would Finch be talking about technical reasons for returns at all? It doesn't make any sense in context except to somehow prop up the claim that there is not a significant difference between the return rates of each OS. But there's no reason to hedge here if there is really no difference. The biggest question is what those ellipses gloss over.

Naturally, given that the same hardware is running both Windows and Linux, you would not expect to see very different return rates based on hardware problems alone. But why the conditional answer?

Re:Playing with words

[rtfa-troll]

Which exact part of

we don't see a significant difference between the return rate for Windows versus the rate for Linux

is it that you have difficulty reading. What he's saying is that Windows machines return at the approximately same rate for technical problems as Linux machines return due to both technical problems and misunderstandings. This implies that if they can improve their communication then the return rate of Linux machines will be significantly lower than the return rate for Windows machines. To be honest I have difficulty working out why. Surely the hardware should be pretty much the same? Is it possible that the rate of malware infection at the beginning of a modern, up to date, Windows system's life is really high enough to account for the extra Windows returns?

Re:Playing with words

[Lumpy]

you are majorly missing the point.

It's a bunch of people that are ordering a Duck dinner at a resturant and returning it because it has duck in it.

The returns are from people too dumb to read what they are ordering, clicking blindly and then sending it back because they did not pay attention.

I bet a large number of them say "Oh, I though when it said it runs linux it means some new game on the internet...."

This is the way of the consumer, People that wanted linux and ordered linux are happy with their linux. Any linux returns are due to low IQ consumers not paying attention.

Re:Playing with words

[SupremoMan]

Honestly all it says is that some Windows users are just stupid and can't read. Otherwise they would have known it had no Windows. I guess M$ shills can spin this into a with a "So easy a caveman can do it" advertising campaign.

Re:Playing with words

[HermMunster]

Actually it would mean more returns are taking place for Windows machines than Linux. More Windows machines being sold means more returns. Fewer Linux machines being sold thus fewer returns.

The idea is the rate of return. Why does someone have to define every word for some people? The return rate is likely a ratio of the number sold vs. the number of those sold that were returned. The same would go for both categories: linux and windows.

The guy quoted also stated the return rate was a non-issue, meaning there was no issue for the company because the return rates were essentially the same.

Re:Playing with words

[Culture20]

No you're missing the point.

1. Return rates between linux netbooks and windows netbooks are the same
2. linux netbooks are being returned because people don't like linux
3. windows netbooks are being returned for device failure (either hardware or software)
4. .'. Windows either
   1. Doesn't work or
   2. breaks hardware

Re:Playing with words

[Svartalf]

.'. Windows either

      1. Doesn't work or
      2. breaks hardware

      3. Both 1 and 2...

There...fixed that for you...

Re:Playing with words

[agnosticnixie]

Actually, the initial high rates data came from MSI - they slapped a default install of OpenSUSE on it, didn't bother to make sure the drivers worked, and sold that.

Re:Playing with words

[MikeUW]

What if it's the same rate of return of 100 machines per day, and not some percentage?  A rate doesn't inherently imply that he's talking about proportional numbers.

You know what they say about statistics...

Re:Playing with words

[jimicus]

Which is amazing considering the amount of crap most OEMs put on a Windows build.

Re:Playing with words

[Anne Thwacks]

So easy a caveman can do it

For /. shills, that is: Only a caveman would want to do it

Re:Playing with words

[Anonymous Coward]

Valid questions. What I'd like to see is some honest backpedaling from the Windows/Microsoft fans who are now facing the fact that since the return rates are comparable, and the number of machines sold with Windows is (obviously?) much higher, it follows that the number of Windows machines returned is correspondingly much higher.

But we won't see that, will we?

Even you somehow managed to spin it as a win for Microsoft, when as a matter of fact the number of returns for Windows machines is much, much higher.

That's funny.

Re:Playing with words

[mvdwege]

I think it would behoove you to read more than the first few paragraphs of an article before spouting off.

Did you miss this bit?

we don't see a significant difference between the return rate for Windows versus the rate for Linux.

So no, he is not talking absolute returns. He is talking return rates. Perhaps this is a case of unclear reporting, but it is not so clear-cut as you pretend.

Mart

Re:Playing with words

[JAlexoi]

A) How was that modded Funny!?!?!
B) Nowhere does he say that the return rate is high, or higher than Windows. In fact he stated quite clearly, that return rates are similar.

Re:Playing with words

[narses]

Microsoft's Turner said that Linux netbooks are being returned at a rate 4 to 5 times higher than Windows netbooks. Dell hasn't disputed this fact at all. Linux netbooks *are* being returned at a very high rate, and Dell's Finch says so right in the article:

Where consumers have returned machines, Finch said, it wasn't because of technical problems but because they'd bought a low-priced machine expecting Windows and opened it to find a different interface.

The difference is that people are returning the Windows netbooks because of technical reasons (broken hardware) and Linux netbooks because they don't want Linux.

That's a win for Microsoft, no matter how you spin it.

Please don't tell us you believe anything/everything MS says. I doubt the figure, but fully understand from experience that Dell support blows, and Dell/Linux support blows harder. Most likely Dell is acting as a MS agent, so with hails of derisive laughter they can claim, with great audacity, that any version of windoze is superior for thin-client computing than Linux.

Re:Playing with words

[Anonymous Coward]

...Since they can't count Linux returns, as it has nothing to do with Windows returns, Microsoft would be clueless

You mean they might make false or misleading claims? Shock!

Re:Playing with words

[agnosticnixie]

IIRC, older versions of "inspironbuntu" added insult to injury by leaving out a few device drivers (webcam was the most common problem) but still bundling gigs of crap.

Re:Playing with words

[Daengbo]

He categorized the matter of returns as a "non-issue".

"They are making something of nothing," he said of Microsoft's claims.

It's a non-issue. Obviously, they are the same rate per sale, which is the only one that wouldn't matter. Read the rest of TFA, too, and you'll understand that Finch was speaking at OpenSource World and trying to combat Microsoft's claim that Linux return rates were four to five times higher.

Oh, and please stop posting in a mono font (I assume you're using <tt> tags).

Re:Playing with words

[rsilvergun]

If it's the same rate of return, and the XP netbooks are being returned for technical issues (which means software, since it's the same hardware), doesn't that make Linux a whole lot more reliable? I guess you could say the Linux buyers are more technical and solve the software problems, but you could also say there's less room to break the damn thing in Linux. You can't install viruses (it's much harder in a true multi user OS) and you also can't try to use the laptop for crap it's not meant for (like loading up Office 2008).

Re:Playing with words

[MikeUW]

You assumed wrong...my post mode was to code for some reason. You make it sound like I've intentionally been doing this for a long time...I deeply apologize if your eyes have been hurt.

Re:Playing with words

[Yfrwlf]

OMG thank you for mentioning proprietary laptops, but of course proprietary anything is bad like automobiles too for instance. Do you know of any companies selling or promoting laptop standards? I've heard of "laptop kits" for a while now as the way to get that kind of freedom but that's of course not the answer. The fact that it's a kit means it's proprietary. Give me LCD screens with standardized connectors and hinges, and standard motherboard sizes, etc, like there is now with desktops. I realize that this may be a bit more difficult due to the rapid changes and size shrinking that is happening with laptops, but it's still very possible to create some standards of course.

Businesses love making this unrepairable. It's high time consumers said "up yours".

Re:Playing with words

[Yfrwlf]

Er sorry, meant pushing laptop standards and trying to sell parts that use them. ^^

Re:Playing with words

[Anonymous Coward]

umm you mean windows users can read now im shocked

Re:Playing with words

[jo42]

> because they'd bought a low-priced machine expecting Windows and opened it to find a different interface

That would then imply that once Windows 7 starts shipping on low-priced machines, returns will go through the roof because of "a different interface".

Re:Playing with words

[thePowerOfGrayskull]

think you are missing the point. Dell says they are not receiving returns except at the same rate. He means that linux netbooks are being returned at the same rate as windows netbook returns.

It depends on how you measure "rate of return". If you measure it as a percentage of sales, and this is true, then it's great news. If you measure it in actual numbers, then it's potentially as bad as MS has claimed. Let's say 75 windows netbooks are sold, and 25 linux netbooks. 5 linux netbooks are returned, 5 windows netbooks are returned. In that case, the rate of return is identical in terms of number of units, but the actual return rate is a much higher amount of the overall sales of the platform.

Re:Playing with words

[CrossChris]

> because they'd bought a low-priced machine expecting Windows and opened it to find a different interface

That would then imply that once Windows 7 starts shipping on low-priced machines, returns will go through the roof because of "a different interface".

Yes, but not because of the "different" interface, but because of the truly appalling "performance" of the MS bloat-ware. Windows 7 is supposed to be less bloated than Vista, but versions seen so far are gigantic and slow. They will be both too big and too slow to run on netbooks. MS still don't understand the basic problems with Windows, and have done exactly nothing to address them. Their suicide continues!

Game Over, Microsoft!

Here's another fact.

[iCantSpell]

That fact that a multi-billion dollar corporation is making up lies about free software on a daily basis is just another sign of true weakness.

Re:Here's another fact.

[HermMunster]

I would not mark the parent as flamebait because he's essentially telling the truth.

Re:Here's another fact.

[Desler]

Actually there is no lie here. Finch has stated that the number of returns, not the rate of returns, for Linux and Windows are about the same. Considering that Windows boxes constitute many more sales, it is just basic mathematics to show that the rate of return will be higher for the product that has a lower volume of total sales.

Re:Here's another fact.

[rxan]

How did this get modded insightful? What lies?

You should just be happy that a major computer manufacturer actually offers something other than Windows. They could have just made things easier for themselves, not made the Linux drivers for their machines, and said forgetaboutit.

Take the small victories.

Re:Here's another fact.

[aardwolf64]

And if I send you $1 million Monopoly dollars, I've essentially given you $1 million dollars. I still prefer my dollars (and truth) to be real, not "essentially" real.

Re:Here's another fact.

[Hurricane78]

Why not stick a large knife right into that weak place? And see the giant fall.

Re:Here's another fact.

[HermMunster]

Clearly he stated rate of return. That's not # of returns.

Re:Here's another fact.

[Draek]

I believe you misunderstood the GP's point about a "multi-billion dollar corporation" to mean Dell, rather than Microsoft.

Re:Here's another fact.

[rxan]

Well.. well... gad damn!

Re:Here's another fact.

[quickOnTheUptake]

And if I send you $1 million Monopoly dollars, I've essentially given you $1 million dollars.

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

Here is a good example:

And if I give you a million dollar house I have essentially given you a million dollars.

That is, when I give you a million dollar house I, in essence, effectively, albeit round-aboutly, transfer a million dollars to you. Not so of monopoly money.

Re:Here's another fact.

[JAlexoi]

Why not stick a large knife right into that weak place? And see the giant fall.

They have a protective plastic cup over their "sensitive" area. So we have hard time making it hurt by kicking....

Re:Here's another fact.

[Shikaku]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Studies_related_to_Microsoft#Get_the_Facts

These lies.

Not Surprised..

[schon]

ASUS said the same thing about the EeePC return rates.

As far as I can tell, the "higher return rates" source is MSI, who shipped a borked distro. Everyone else seems to be doing swimmingly.

Re:Not Surprised..

[Anonymous Coward]

I have a eeePC and believe me, the Xandros on it was just as crappy a distro as anything MSI could have (only a very limited, typical ubuntu/debian out-of-date package repository, adding other ones breaks your distro). (I now have a leight-weight arch installation with lxde and it rules.)

Re:Not Surprised..

[agnosticnixie]

Nothing can be worse than what MSI did - they installed OpenSUSE. That's it, a default install with a bunch of non-standard hardware that required some driver tweaks when the Wind was initially released.

Re:Not Surprised..

[jhol13]

Still Asus stopped selling Linux.

BTW you use #1 linux fanboyism "you are using wrong distro". I am really, really tired of it. Every time I have a complaint (no matter how legitimate) most of the comments say I use wrong distro. Apparently "right" distro does not exist ...

OTOH they do have a 100% bullet proof defence - there isn't enough days in my life to check every distro there is.

Re:Not Surprised..

[mvdwege]

I think you missed the point in your fanboyish enthusiasm: he said all other manufacturers had no problems, meaning that there is objective proof that MSI did ship the wrong distro.

Mart

Re:Not Surprised..

[Artraze]

"borked" != "wrong". The borked (usually meaning 'broken', BTW) is in reference to the fact that many of the drivers included were some degree of screwed up, thus leaving the computer basically crippled. Also, while some people don't seem to care for the included distros, they still generally applaud the linux laptops and really only mention the distro in passing (at least, that's all I've seen).

Re:Not Surprised..

[dbIII]

Yes, ASUS stopped selling the linux eeepc but I doubt it was for the reason you gave, they were selling as fast as they were shipped.
You may have noticed an article here about the CEO of ASUS changing his mind radically at a trade show. He was talking about how wonderful the linux eeepc was in the morning, met with Microsoft reps at lunch and was actually apologising to all for not shipping them with XP in the afternoon. Since that meeting ASUS has stopped shipping linux eeepcs.
It appears that the reasons for the change were all contained in that lunchtime meeting with Microsoft and did not come from ASUS itself, whether it was a carrot or a stick can only be guessed at, but it resulted in the extreme reaction of a CEO making a public apology for a product. Don't take my word for it - an article was here on this site and there were similar ones on other tech sites.
It's a pity really because the GUI shipped on the linux eeepc looks good for inexperienced users and the XP version is slower to start and launch a web browser.

Re:Not Surprised..

[jhol13]

I respectfully disagree, IMNSHO borked == wrong.

Asus Eee 701 & 900 did not have a single "broken" driver, everything worked OK. Except only with the Xandros (which nobody liked).

The problem is that that was not enough: people still had problems and complained because the drivers did not work with their favourite distro. This is not good, no matter how you put it. This is what is wrong with Linux: there isn't "one" and they are incompatible.

Let me put it straight: I *love* my Asus 900. I like Linux very much, it is hugely better than Windows - but still it is "borked" - the device driver architecture is idiotic.

Not surprised

[ciroknight]

People buying these machines know they ship with Ubuntu. It says so right on the website, and the button you click, and repeats it when you checkout. People aren't returning these machines more because they have Ubuntu, they're buying them more because they have Ubuntu.

Now, if only this would rub off on the rest of the business sectors. I'd love to buy a new Studio 15 laptop with the option for Ubuntu. It'd save me 45 minutes formatting, reinstalling Ubuntu and reconfiguring the system the way I like. But unfortunately their selection for machines with Ubuntu only includes the crap Inspiron line (the Ford Fiesta of laptops).

Re:Not surprised

[Anonymous Coward]

There are high quality lap top options for linux. Check out system76.com for example..

Re:Not surprised

[swanzilla]

I've got Jackalope running on my old Inspiron 9300...everything runs, and quickly. I do have an issue with the screen brighness from time to time, and the volume control is iffy. To stick with your analogy, I turned my Fiesta into a Mustang with a shot washer fluid pump and a hole in the muffler.

Re:Not surprised

[rxan]

People aren't returning these machines more because they have Ubuntu, they're buying them more because they have Ubuntu.

That's a nice sounding way to spin it. But in TFA it actually says they were buying them because they were cheaper, not because they had Ubuntu.

Normal people don't know what Ubuntu is. They don't know what Windows is. They just want cheap computers and assume that they all have that familiar OS.

Re:Not surprised

[Lumpy]

I'd love to buy a new Studio 15 laptop with the option for Ubuntu. It'd save me 45 minutes formatting, reinstalling Ubuntu and reconfiguring the system the way I like.

45 minutes??? It took me 4 hours to get my Studio 17 to work flawlessly with linux. The damned WLan and Wireless cards had to be swapped out for standard ones instead of the crap that Dell put's in there. I had to surf ebay for 1 hour alone to fund good quality Intel Cards to buy to replace the dell brand garbage that is a windows only card. And no I do not like using ndswrapper. It's a dirty hack at best.

Then the fight with getting the sound working... I wish dell would stop using crappy chipsets for things and use the better stuff that is more compatible. Funny part is my bosses Lenovo that is basically the same specs installed fine and everything came up without a hitch.

Re:Not surprised

[gbarules2999]

One vendor isn't enough. system76 is great, but it's just one out of millions.

Re:Not surprised

[Anonymous Coward]

No. Dell clearly states that you are NOT getting Windows on their Ubuntu page - http://dell.com/ubuntu (URL shown deliberately to show that it is short and easy to remember).

To the grandparent poster: they also have an XPS laptop with Ubuntu

Re:Not surprised

[HermMunster]

I think under Ubuntu there's something called ndisgtk which really helps get wireless working. It essentially is a pretty automated ndiswrapper. I've used it a few times and it has saved me hours of work.

On the other hand, I have been working to solve why some Windows machines won't connect to my secure wireless.

The point is that wireless issues abound on both environments, still!

Re:In Slashdot Bingo

[Frosty Piss]

KDawson is a pathetic reactionary troll. It would be nice to be able to filter out anything he's touched.

Troll? or data... you decide.

[starglider29a]

I wonder what the return rate is of Macs is? Esp from Best Buy?

Re:Troll? or data... you decide.

[Anonymous Coward]

'is of Macs is'?

Someone is typing to[sic] fast. The Grammartroopers are going to get you...

"These aren't the grammars for which you are looking."

Re:Troll? or data... you decide.

[Scragglykat]

I didn't think you could return a Mac without first signing a legal document binding you to not speak of the return to anyone for the rest of your life... guess we'll never know. :o)

Re:Troll? or data... you decide.

[beegeegee]

>>I wonder what the return rate is of Macs is?

That would be, like, totally uncool.

Re:Troll? or data... you decide.

[gbarules2999]

Dear user,

Thank you for your question. Unfortunately, your question was not sleek, white, and shiny, so we are unable to process your request.

Kisses,
Apple Customer Service

Re:Troll? or data... you decide.

[Anonymous Coward]

As a former employee, Macs seemed to be returned at a higher % than PCs. Macs were almost always returned for "My husband is a moron, this does not have Windows", whereas PCs were returned for "This $200 PC can not run Windows". Either way it was a win for BestTry as they charged a 15% restocking fee then sold them for 5% off...

Re:Troll? or data... you decide.

[Capt.DrumkenBum]

When I worked for WorstBuy Canada, every time a new model Mac would come out. I knew I would be seeing a pile of Mac returns starting in about a week. They would have lots of generic faults listed as the reason for the return, but 95% of them I wiped the drive, reinstalled the software and right back to the store.
I used to think of it as "Returned because my pirated copy of Office doesn't work."

Incredible

[Anonymous Coward]

I've grown accustomed to people not reading TFA. I know sometimes they don't even read TFS. But how were you able to post your comment without even reading TFT?!

Same Number or Same percentage?

[abigsmurf]

Incredibly vague wording there that means his quote can be interpreted either way. Windows machines outsell Linux ones so if they're experiencing the same number of returns, it indicates people are less happy with the Windows one. Did he really mean same percentage or same number?

Also, given that this was a Dell rep at an Open Source show, he wasn't exactly going to go "yeah, Linux hasn't really been working for us, it sucks, we'll be switching to Windows".

Re:Same Number or Same percentage?

[Povno]

But, to be the devils advocate here, a Dell rep is in fact at an Open Source show. Defending a product that isn't exactly even a cash cow for them and I don't exactly see Linux pre-installed on any HP's or Gateway's. They are making an effort to put it out there for those that want it. Given that they a) didn't have to offer it in the first place to remain a leader in the industry and b) didn't have to show up to give their support; I think that the fact that they did both of those things at least says something about their commitment to at Linux.

Re:Same Number or Same percentage?

[psbrogna]

First Paragraph: Does it?

Re:Same Number or Same percentage?

[HermMunster]

Your argument is strawman. It has no point. It's meant just to get people to chase a feather in the wind.

One would not have to question say the return rates of a Ferrari to that of a Ford Taurus.

In other words, we all know what it means when they say return rates.

Re:Same Number or Same percentage?

[Attila Dimedici]

Later in the article he says, "we don't see a significant difference between the return rate for Windows versus the rate for Linux. " Return rate has a very specific meaning in the retail industry, it means a percentage of units sold.

Re:Same Number or Same percentage?

[dwinks616]

HP in fact sells quite a few computers with Linux pre-installed. In fact, my sister just bought one of the HP Mini Mi computers, and bought it configured exactly the same as the Windows version for $50 less. On a 10.1" screen, Atom processor, low-end Intel graphics machine, exactly WHAT benifit does getting XP have? Certainly not games, as the machine won't play them, not even 5 year old ones, not even close. Does Facebook or Myspace function better in Firefox for windows than it does in Firefox for Linux? Nope. In fact, the opposite is true, as Linux uses less system resources, and thusly has more to use on Firefox. Oh, yea, you can't install MS Office 2007 on Linux...but why the hell would you install $250+ of office software on a netbook that doesn't even cost $250?? Photoshop, etc all fall under the "why install software costing many times the cost of the hardware on such a low-end machine" category.

So they creatively interpreted the numbers?

[Seth Kriticos]

Oh noes, how could they!

This will put a serious dent in their excellent credibility track record..

Re:In Slashdot Bingo

[wampus]

Shrug, I use it to learn about Windows security shit I should be aware of. Those are usually the only timely stories that make it here anymore.

Giving People What They Want

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not a win for Microsoft, nor is it a loss for Linux. People bought low-cost machines thinking they shipped with Windows out of blatant complacency, when they stated up front in multiple places it shipped with Linux. That's the consumers being ignorant, and partially Dell's fault for not making it clear enough. "Now we are trying to be a little more explicit in our advertising," Finch said.

This is no different than consumers going to McDonalds and ordering a cheeseburger forgetting the fact that they include cheese, and then returning it for a hamburger. And yes, this does happen.

Re:Giving People What They Want

[HermMunster]

This is detracting from what is really happening. It has little to do with people making the wrong choice. To blame the return rate on people making the wrong choice is incorrect. That smooths out over time. They'll get what they want.

The issue is whether windows and linux netbooks are being returned at the same rate. And they are. From that you have to break down causes. One cause is the fact that some people bought the wrong version. There are other issues as well.

Re:Giving People What They Want

[Daengbo]

I've bought the wrong version of Windows many times. In 1999, I bought a Win98 machine and another with WinME when I really wanted laptops with Linux. Later, I bought at least three XP machines when I wanted Linux ones.

Unfortunately, I couldn't return the laptops for the models I really wanted so I had to keep the "wrong" ones.

But do I believe this (maybe)?

[Fallen Andy]

Seriously. Get real. If you were about to start shipping Windows 7 and haggling for a better price per copy you *would* say that Linux returns aren't bad wouldn't you? The whole idea is to try to get the best possible deal out of MS.

Andy

Re:But do I believe this (maybe)?

[Anonymous Coward]

MS already has access to this information through their re-issued activation records.

Re:But do I believe this (maybe)?

[HermMunster]

This is incorrect. You do not activate a Dell machine nor do you active any Royal OEM's machines. In fact, the sticker on the outside of the computer, that displays the product key, that product key is not used.

Microsoft, in your proposition, has access to re-activations and to Linux return numbers?

Re:But do I believe this (maybe)?

[pseudonomous]

This isn't really new though, this has been something Dell has said every since Acer and MSI started complaining about a higher return rate on thier linux based netbooks. In fact, it's basically not news. Anyways, the point of my reply is that it's not just a price negotation stunt, Dell has been saying this all along, and it seems like they have no reservations about continueing to sell some linux-based computers, though I doubt it will become a more common option or be actively promoted by them anytime soon.

Microsoft is fighting back

[alen]

if anyone hasn't noticed, Apple and Microsoft have been playing very nice together since last year.

  Apple has licensed ActiveSync for the iphone and MobileMe
there is Exchange 2007 integration into Snow Leopard
New MS Office for the Mac will have an Outlook client for the first time with full Exchange integration

I think MS is playing nice with Apple to get back at Dell and HP for the netbook linux thing. If HP and Dell want to ship linux PC's, then MS is going to help Apple poach Dell's most profitable customers

Re:Microsoft is fighting back

[Hyppy]

That must be exactly why Microsoft has the astoundingly successful "You find it, you keep it" ad campaign going, with Dell and HP laptops prominently featured.

Re:Microsoft is fighting back

[je ne sais quoi]

I think MS is playing nice with Apple to get back at Dell and HP for the netbook linux thing. If HP and Dell want to ship linux PC's, then MS is going to help Apple poach Dell's most profitable customers

How does doing that help Microsoft in any way? So they can laugh at Dell when they both end up like GM? Microsoft is seeing reductions in sales hand over fist in all divisions and is trying to increase their profit margin and maintain their monopoly any way they can. If that means licensing their stuff to Apple, so be it. As far as I know, Dell is MS' biggest customer, they want to help them sell more windows computers.

Re:Microsoft is fighting back

[Anonymous Coward]

What kind of theory is that?

Microsoft is trying to punish the companies that are responsible for all their profit in the desktop by attempting to increase the sales of the one company who has a slight chance of threatening their lucrative monopoly.

Re:Microsoft is fighting back

[gbarules2999]

Which is dumb, because Dell and HP could just as easily start pushing their Linux machines further. Advertising and user education is all Linux needs at this point (well, aside from a not-crap audio framework). Microsoft should just keep its mouth shut - by default that puts the strain on their partners.

Re:Microsoft is fighting back

[alen]

my conspiracy theory says it's an unwritten agreement to keep DoJ off everyone's backs and to offer token competition to show in court

i find it extremely puzzling why Apple offers MS Exchange mailbox access on 40 million plus iphones and ipods and MS can't even offer it on the Zune and most WinMo cell phones. it's almost like MS wants the Zune to fail and yet they license ActiveSync to a competitor. maybe that's where the $10 annual ipod upgrade fee is going? not like anyone belives Apple's story about it being for SOX accounting reasons.

MS has said they want Windows to be a smaller part of the revenue pie and in the last year they found 40 million new devices to license Exchange on. and that's not including the Pre.

Re:Microsoft is fighting back

[alen]

and Apple seems to not want to compete in the desktop space. macbook pro's and imacs are made of the same internal parts and Apple seems content selling the same PC at ridiculous mark ups to it's niche market. the way everything is integrated on the motherboard today and the fact that it's very easy to build a consumer level hackintosh it shouldn't be a big deal for Apple to sell a desktop system that's cheaper than the imac's laptop internals.

Re:Microsoft is fighting back

[Anonymous Coward]

Mod that baby up. It's not like you see any Acer or Gateway systems in those commercials.

Re:Microsoft is fighting back

[MBGMorden]

Advertising and user education is all Linux needs at this point (well, aside from a not-crap audio framework).

Well, that and a fix for the sluggish GUI. I tend to open lots of tabs, and I'm a very fast clicker and typist, and Linux just lags a bit more than Windows or Mac (no, it's not just my setup - I've gotten the same results across at least a dozen different computers and virtually every major distro out there). Fonts are a problem too, but they're fixable. My default Linux Mint desktop just felt totally off with the default font setup. I changed all the interface fonts to Tahoma (one of MS's fonts) and it's now much better. For something free Google's Droid font don't look too bad either.

That said, Microsoft is floundering too. Vista was slower than XP, and despite so many people praising it I've found Windows 7's RC to feel much slower than XP as well (and I'm running on a 2.5Ghz Phenom Quad-Core with 4GB of RAM). Their continued push towards trusted computing, DRM, and the like is also becoming more than I can bare. Eventually I'll be forced to ditch windows more out of philosophical concerns rather than technical ones.

Honestly too I think having an iTunes Linux port would do wonders for me and many others too. Many people bash it but for me iTunes is second only to my browser in usage time.

Re:Microsoft is fighting back

[bmorency]

if anyone hasn't noticed, Apple and Microsoft have been playing very nice together since last year.

Can anyone explain to me why MS has been playing nice with Apple but not with Linux? I have never understood why they are doing that but they try so hard to stop Linux adoption. Mac's are the ones putting the bigger dent in their desktop marketshare. You would think they wouldn't be releasing Office and other things on that platform to keep people from switching away and decreasing their markethare even more.

Re:Microsoft is fighting back

[Blackhalo]

"I think MS is playing nice with Apple to get back at Dell and HP for the netbook linux thing. If HP and Dell want to ship linux PC's, then MS is going to help Apple poach Dell's most profitable customers"

Nice in theory until you realize that those are also MSFT's most profitable customers.

Re:Microsoft is fighting back

[UnknowingFool]

Playing nice isn't really how I would describe it. For years, Apple has bashed "PCs" with their "I'm a Mac" commercials. MS launched the Zune trying to unseat Apple in music players. Apple's iPhone takes away marketshare from Windows Mobile. Apple and MS are businesses and sometimes in business have to work with competitors especially if your markets overlap but are not in direct competition. Apple needs to work with MS for Exchange which Mac users want. Microsoft needs to refresh their Office line for Macs which Mac users want.

Re:Microsoft is fighting back

[kcfoxie]

Office 2010. Really? It's about time. They had it BEFORE the OS X switch.

Re:Microsoft is fighting back

[Hyppy]

Uh... I run an Exchange server, and every WinMo phone in the office is happily accessing it. Calendar, contacts, and everything.

Re:Microsoft is fighting back

[Anonymous Coward]

if anyone hasn't noticed, Apple and Microsoft have been playing very nice together since last year.

If you think about it, the television "Mac vs. PC" (pc=Windows) debate is a classic marketing coup. Anybody remember the "Coke Vs. Pepsi" ads aired obnoxiously by Pepsi AND Coke? or Republicans and Democrats for that matter. No "lesser" competitors enter into the debate, no matter how viable they are... R.C. Cola, Ralph Nader, Red Hat...

Dell Doesn't Push Linux Though

[popo]

While this may be a non-issue in terms of returns... I still find it extremely difficult to actually "find" Linux machines on the Dell.com site.

Re:Dell Doesn't Push Linux Though

[godrik]

heu, it is not... On their search engine you can search by operating system which features ubuntu or freedos/linux. There can not be this choice in all categories, but it was present in the first 3 I just tried.

Re:Dell Doesn't Push Linux Though

[oracleguy01]

It isn't too hard, when you select laptops for example (at least in the home division) on the left side there is a "Narrow your selection" thing and one of the categories is "Operating System" just check the box for "Ubuntu Linux" and it will show you all the laptops that have it as an option. There are only 4 right now (I just checked) but at least they are there.

Surprised?

[FreonTrip]

And here we see Microsoft making messy and untenable assertions to the detriment of its ostensibly valuable business partners. My charitable side is prone to thinking that these moves are just oblivious on Microsoft's part, but the side that's been reading Slashdot for a decade suggests that they still think they're too big to be affected by their own irked customers... and it's happy to see that notion countered more and more these days. Next slide.

News flash!

[iamacat]

Return rates for a new, less familiar product are higher than those for an older product which customers had 15 years to evaluate and decide if they want. This doesn't mean the new product is bad. On the contrary, people who are returning it - and those who are not - bought it because they were not completely satisfied with the old product (on price or other reasons) and wanted to evaluate other solutions.

Re:News flash!

[tricorn]

Very few people are going to mistakenly buy a Windows machine when they meant to buy one with Linux. That means that almost every return because it wasn't what they thought they were buying is going to be a return of Linux. No surprise there. Doesn't mean that people don't like Linux, and you won't see how many people mistakenly bought one with Linux and then decided to keep it anyway.

The only thing the return rate for Linux would be useful for is to add a bit of reality to sales figures, to correct Linux sales figures down a bit to account for those sales which were by mistake. THAT's a reasonable use of such a figure.

How Dare He Say

[Anonymous Coward]

' 'They are making something of nothing,' about linux

It does not matter

[bogaboga]

You know why? Because for most folks, perception *is* reality. Once Microsoft succeeds in "planting" the notion that netbooks based on Linux are somewhat inferior, only the geeks will buy them.

This works for Microsoft. What we should do, is to focus our efforts on make Linix and OSS technologies relevant to the average human being.

What is going on now with MS Office coming to Nokia's hardware is a case in point. It does not work for OSS in general.

Firefox, OpenOffice.org and multimedia on Linux continue to suck big time. Lets work on these so that if one takes the Linux plunge, that person gets pleasantly surprised.

Re:It does not matter

[MickyTheIdiot]

Firefox, OpenOffice.org and multimedia on Linux continue to suck big time. Lets work on these so that if one takes the Linux plunge, that person gets pleasantly surprised.

Well... that is your PERCEPTION of Firefox, OOo and Linux Multimedia, isn't it. Actually I think Firefox on Linux works great, multimedia is pretty good (though Balkanized across several programs, and that OOo is perfect for the "office" tasks I have to do. I also have to say that Ubuntu is the only distribution of any OS (Windows and MacOS included in this statement) that has impressed me with EVERY new version I install. A lot of the perception is just simply because a lot of people haven't used it. People using it (for more than 5 minutes when it comes out of the box) is what is going to change opinions.

Re:It does not matter

[jedidiah]

> Firefox, OpenOffice.org and multimedia on Linux continue to suck big time.

No they don't. You're just trying to add to the mindless anti-Linux hysteria.

All of these are quite suitable for the average user and in many cases FAR
SUPERIOR to the default Lemming option. Linux multimedia software in
particular is used to bail out both Windows and MacOS from usability and
functionality issues.

Time to find a new FUD talking point. "Linux multi-media" is over in this respect.

Re:It does not matter

[bravo_2_0]

You know why? Because for most folks, perception *is* reality. Once Microsoft succeeds in "planting" the notion that netbooks based on Linux are somewhat inferior, only the geeks will buy them.

Apart from geeks and maybe a few of their family members who else do you think is buying the Linux machines? No one that I know wants anything to do with Linux no matter how much I explain its virtues. I get the standard reply of does it run office? Well open office is better because and that's when they usually cut me off.

So yes MS is planting the notion that the Linux boxes are inferrior but frankly no one is listening. The geeks already know it's FUD and it seems hardly anyone else wants Linux anyway.

Re:It does not matter

[element-o.p.]

What we should do, is to focus our efforts on make Linix and OSS technologies relevant to the average human being....Lets work on these so that if one takes the Linux plunge, that person gets pleasantly surprised.

Have you looked at one of the Dell netbooks with Linux on it? We bought two Mini-9's for testing where I work; I got one, and one of the other network admins got the other. The things are awesome, except for a couple of minor gripes:

1) A couple of tools that I expected (sshd, slocate, rsync) aren't available on the install or the on-line package repository, since it's a slightly lobotomized Dell-specific version of Ubuntu that's installed on the Mini-9;
2) The software update site that Synaptic syncs from worked for about a month, then stopped working (I haven't bothered to call Dell to ask what happened, but I probably should so I can keep the OS updated);
3) It occasionally will not resume after suspending.

Item one problem won't matter to most users; just network geeks like myself. Item two is probably the biggest problem, but like I said, I haven't tried to contact Dell to see why synaptic/apt-get update/etc. can no longer connect to the update server. Item three also happens on my wife's Vista laptop, so doesn't seem to be a differentiating characteristic of Linux over Windows.

On the other hand, the wireless (typically a weakness for Linux distros in my experience) is rock solid, quickly and easily connecting to wireless networks with no fuss and no hassle...very much unlike the wireless on my wife's Vista laptop, which frequently can't find wireless networks, won't stay connected in cases where it does, and/or provides mind-numbingly slow transfer rates when it can connect. Setting up network printers is again far easier and more reliable than the printer setup on my wife's Vista laptop, which has to be reconfigured every single time she reboots. As far as multimedia...I can play DVDs on my Mini-9, I can watch YouTube videos. As far as Firefox and Open Office...on Linux "suck[ing] big time", well...FF may be somewhat slower to run JavaScript and OOo may not have *all* the features or be as pretty as MS Office, but I'll take standards-compliant FF over IE and free OOo with all its faults over MS' $500 price tag and freaking annoying "ribbon" interface any day.

In other words, I think the FOSS/Linux community has done a great deal to make Linux and OSS technologies relevant to the average human being. I see FOSS/Linux as pretty good already and getting even better, but YMMV.

Re:It does not matter

[SEE]

I found upgrading the Dell Mini 9 to Ubuntu 9.04 Netbook Remix cleared up #3, and probably fixes 1 & 2, too.

(Granted, 9.04 Netbook Remix has a different alternative desktop than the one that comes with the Dell version of 8.04.)

Breaking News: MS thinks their OS ist the best!

[gweihir]

Possibly the reason for thiese claims and why they are still way behind on technical merits compared to the competition...

They are making something of nothing

[gmuslera]

Who? Microsoft?? Seriously?? Amazing. Noone would ever think of that,...unless take a watch of Microsoft's history of claims since, well, ever (yes, ever, probably they got in the future a time machine and said Eve that glass is the safest food in the history, but she was smart and picked Apple)

just think

[flahwho]

People who use Linux use it because they CHOOSE to. On the contrary most people who use Windows do so because they're forced to.

Re:just think

[Anonymous Coward]

People who use Linux use it because they CHOOSE to. On the contrary most people who use Windows do so because they're forced to.

Bullshit. Consumers are not forced to use Windows, they make the choice. There are alturnatives, and nobody is holding a gun to their head. Statements like yours, obviously fanboyish, serve only to convince people that Linux geeks are out of touch fanatics.

Re:just think

[MickyTheIdiot]

You're probably correct in pointing out that they make a choice. Whether they make an informed choice is another matter. I doubt there are many non-techies that truly make an informed choice about what OS they intend to use. I doubt that usage percentage has anything to do with what system is actually better and more to do with what they use at work or school or what their neighbor who is "good with computers" thinks.

Re:just think

[wampus]

Yes, knowing how to use the damn thing is important. So is being able to get support and applications. Both of those trump some nebulous "better."

Re:just think

[MickyTheIdiot]

So is being able to get support and applications.

This argument AGAIN? This is the same one used against MacOS for 20 years now. There's plenty of support and aps, just not at Wal-Mart.

Re:just think

[wampus]

You just said 'I doubt that usage percentage has anything to do with what system is actually better and more to do with what they use at work or school or what their neighbor who is "good with computers" thinks.'

Sounds like you just said they go with Windows because they know how to use it and can get support. I threw in applications because they are more fun to use than an OS.

20 years, eh? Given 20 years of "better," I'd expect everything I own to be running MacOS, but alas, it's Windows for desktops, Linux for my frankenbox server and phone, and some embedded mess in my DVR.

Re:just think

[jedidiah]

There is also the possibility that people make a choice based on fear mongering
or the perception that they don't really have any other option. The DOS platform
has long sold itself on the fact that it is the most widely used and is effectively
"compatable" with anything.

The fear that there is some remote chance that they might be marginalized by not being
a part of the Microsoft hegemony is a considerable fear factor. Often the choice to use
or stay with Microsoft products is essentially coerced.

This even keeps people away from Apple despite their long standing good reputation and
very effective recent advertising campaigns.

This notion has been embedded in consumer computing for over 20 years now.

Re:just think

[jedidiah]

Here we get back to the classic fear mongering tactics.

Whip up the frenzy of fear in the n00bs that there is some
slim chance that sometime in the future that they might be
marginalized for not using what "everyone else uses".

This kept people away from the Mac and the other GUI based
systems when you had to do manual memory management under DOS.

Even Slackware 96 was easy compared to that.

Re:just think

[wampus]

Fear mongering? Are you claiming that people don't like to use things that are familiar to them, or that claiming that they do IS fear mongering?

Also, I don't know what DOS or Slackware has to do with anything. For the record, getting Slackware from 1996 switched over to glibc was significantly harder than building a config.sys and autoexec.bat pair for any given app.

Re:just think

[Anonymous Coward]

This argument AGAIN?

Could it be the arguement is true? What a concept!

Why is it when you bring up apps support ever fanboi cries that it's an old argument? It's still true regardless of age.

As much as you see the evolution of Linux apps the fact is that Windows apps have also evolved in that timeframe. There may be Linux desktop apps that are just as good as their Windows desktop counterparts but I have yet to see one that is better.

There's plenty of support and aps, just not at Wal-Mart.

Oh boo hoo. This is a real red herring. Maybe folks are happier finding the apps they want in a package they understand and is built with the user in mind. Maybe they'd rather not try on 5 different apps to find the best one. Your average computer user is just that: a user. They want to get their crap done and go back to watching Monday Night Football. Your geek lifestyle is foreign to them and dicking with technology is about as appealing to them as what working at a fast food restaurant is to most geeks. They'll do it if they have to but they don't care to. They don't want to spend countless hours looking through a repository, trying to make sense of all the techno babble. They don't want to search endlessly through SourceForge, hoping to make the best decision. For them this kind of thing is no better than throwing darts in the dark. They don't want to go through endless blogs and forums with people bickering on about OpenOffice versus whatever else and finding that only one in every ten comments makes more sense to them than some 14 year old kid who's never coded a line in his life rambling on about something or other being Teh Suck!!!

When are we going to have to stop having this debate about the current state of Linux apps? It's the same old song and dance because the facts haven't changed! We live in a WalMart nation that is quickly evolving into a WalMart world. For Joe Sixpack WalMart is EXACTLY what they're looking for. Get off your self-righteous heap of technology and come down and see it from the user's prospective.

Re:just think

[HermMunster]

Total bogus arguments to his points. He's right. Yours are extreme. Software is software. Linux programs are easy and well designed. Each release brings us better.

The argument has been false for a long time. That AGAIN argument was specious for a very long time. It has no merit. It's just that when you have a fight you can use an argument that's vague and hard to defend against. The more specific you get the easier it is to debate.

Linux software is awesome. From the desktop managers to the applications for doing word processing to the games "most" people play down to the management of files, Linux is stupendous. On top of that these products get better faster than their proprietard counterparts. No questions there. That's the nature of OSS.

Any support of the old argument that is brought up again and again is specious and shows the weakness of that person's current position.

Time to grow up and move on.

Re:just think

[Mhtsos]

Isn't it really impossible to buy a laptop without an OS? Isn't windows the only OS you can buy with 90% of the laptops?

Re:just think

[Anne Thwacks]

So is being able to get support and applications.

If they are your priorities, maybe you should consider Linux after all - apps are free, and bugs are fixed, and as for support, when have you ever got MS to fix a bug? I have had almost all the bugs I have ever reported in KDE and OpenOffice fixed (or a reply explaining why not).

The same is true of other OpenSOurce software: Oracle may fix bugs if you pay them $30,000 a month Postgresql added the features I requested as well.

Re:just think

[Yfrwlf]

I disagree, based on personal experience. I think that most consumers don't know that there is a choice besides Apple, if they remember Apple (older generations won't know Apple so much as newer generations, thanks to Apple's marketing targeting frat/etc crowds). When I worked as a technician I was asked several times "Is there an alternative to Microsoft?" Knowledge is power, and once more consumers understand that they could be getting a free OS, I think roughly 80-90% would be using Linux, given that IMO compared to normal desktop users, a small minority are into "those big games". Most would be quite content with what comes installed on a Linux system, and very content once you add on all the other software that is available for Linux, with perhaps a few exceptions where users complained about this or that app being not as good or too different from what they're used to.

Driver issues?

[Midnight Thunder]

The difference is that people are returning the Windows netbooks because of technical reasons (broken hardware) and Linux netbooks because they don't want Linux.

I don't know if it applies to the Netbooks, but from experience I found that Dell would put Linux on a computer, neglecting to ensure all the hardware in the device has associated drivers. If Dell still hasn't fixed this issue, then this is a Dell issue and not a Linux issue.

What would be more enlightening, is why the computers are getting returned. If it is simply a fact that people were expecting to have MS-Windows and got something else, then it is is a fair reason. Had they given Linux a chance they might have stuck with it, but in certain cases the 'know' what they wanted and didn't get it.

Re:Driver issues?

[Daengbo]

Here. Let me RTFA for you:

Where consumers have returned machines, Finch said, it wasn't because of technical problems but because they'd bought a low-priced machine expecting Windows and opened it to find a different interface.

Todd, this isn't good for your career

[mpapet]

Kudos to Todd for laying what may be the truth out there.

If Todd's march to the top of the cubicle farm dung heap doesn't end over this one, then Dell gets my next notebook order.

Re:Todd, this isn't good for your career

[wampus]

Wow, you really respond well to marketing.

To all the Linux warriors, "Pax Vobiscum" !

[ByzantineAlex]

Okay, got it. Yours is bigger. You the man. I get it. Satisfied now ? Oh boy... I will never understand these "religious" wars... Who gives a &*&@ on what you or me use on the desktop ? It's a tool ! To each his own. It's like "I drive a Mercedes - See ? I'm smarter then you !" PS. Personally, I have tried Ubuntu once. It failed miserably at the first (minor) HW change (the display died completely). Sorry, I have NO TIME TO SPEND on babysitting an OS - I have lost three whole afternoons trying to make it work again - when Windows found the new graphic card and installed it automatically in less than a minute. You use what suits you - fine, I'm happy for you - why to you need to start a crusade with each occasion ?

Re:To all the Linux warriors, "Pax Vobiscum" !

[jedidiah]

Why... this obvious lie:

        "Linux has problems but Windows doesn't"

People like to pretend that Windows is this perfect little MacOS clone when it's really anything but.

Re:To all the Linux warriors, "Pax Vobiscum" !

[domatic]

Granted. But understand that many of us have had the opposite experience: Something Just Working on Linux that required hours of hair pulling on Windows. And that means the same argument can apply in reverse.

Re:To all the Linux warriors, "Pax Vobiscum" !

[HermMunster]

Did he actually say that? I make my living off the problems that Windows has.

Re:To all the Linux warriors, "Pax Vobiscum" !

[rohan972]

I have lost three whole afternoons trying to make it work again - when Windows found the new graphic card and installed it automatically in less than a minute. You use what suits you - fine, I'm happy for you - why to you need to start a crusade with each occasion ?

To grow the install base -> to motivate hardware vendor support -> so the graphics card works

The FOSS community can not afford to ignore the FUD and political underhandedness of the major desktop OS company if we want our tools to work, since they have shown themselves determined to prevent competing products form working when possible.

Also, I have just as much trouble using windows as I hear of people having with linux, the issues are just different. I don't have time to spend babysitting an OS either, yet that leads me to prefer linux over windows because that's where my experience is.

Typical.

[jotaeleemeese]

Being grabbed and screaming to the cold reality that many people out there hate to be constrained to Windows.

People keep trying to explain what has become now pretty obvious: Linux is mainstream.

It is high time companies and people interested in computing wake up to this simple reality.

They are making something of nothing.....

[shadowen1977]

"They are making something of nothing" Well that is the Microsoft business model isn't it?

What's the deal, Dell?

[symbolset]

As a 'softie told me here once, vendors are coin operated. Take three guesses at who's dropping the coin in their slot and punching their buttons.

Re:What's the deal, Dell?

[the_B0fh]

Man, if I didn't work in the computer field, that whole line looks a bit kinky...

It depends on your marketing

[davidwr]

If you market Linux computers to people who are looking for "a computer" that will "run software they buy or already have" you'll get high return rates. Same as if you market a Mac to those people without also selling them a Windows license and teaching them how to use dual-boot or a dual-os system like Parallels.

If you market Linux computers to people who know what they are getting you won't get any OS-specific return problems.

why some linux netbooks have high return rate

[luther349]

the os plane and simple. many netbooks where shipped with weak distros like gos and the outdated and space hoging xandros. if all netbooks shipped with ubuntu i do not think the rates would have been high. also i agree to the fact with it having linux as the os should be clearly advertised. and dell does both of these right..

Dell has dropped most Linux models

[Animats]

It's really hard to get a Dell netbook delivered with Linux. At the moment, the Latitude 2100 is one of the very few machines to come with Linux. It's $30 cheaper than with a Microsoft OS. Dell's search page has a "FreeDOS and Linux" option, and if you check that, you get "No configurations are valid for the selected options." There's a Linux option for the Mini 10v, but the Windows versions has an "instant discount" to bring its price down to match the Linux version. (Also, the Windows version comes with a hard drive, while the Linux version only has 8GB of flash memory)

There are, as far as I know, no Linux-only netbooks left on the market.

Re:Dell has dropped most Linux models

[Internalist]

Huh ?

http://www1.ca.dell.com/ca/en/home/Laptops/laptop-inspiron-10/pd.aspx?refid=laptop-inspiron-10&s=dhs&cs=cadhs1&ref=lthp

Leftmost item is a Dell Mini 10v (as you pointed out), with Ubuntu pre-installed, and a 160GB hard drive. In fact,the page you linked to seems to have the same item (3rd from left), albeit at an inexplicably higher price (and in USD).

Who gives a shit about the "instant discount" for the Windows version?

Re:Dell has dropped most Linux models

[Shikaku]

You are not looking hard enough. Please check at least the last link.

That is easy to deal with.

[jotaeleemeese]

This has been a non issue for a while for companies with enough know how...

Yet again the same old tired canard.

[jotaeleemeese]

That is what capitalism is all about.

Why insist on this same point every time Linux makes some progress?

Play nice with MS....

[jotaeleemeese]

.. at your own peril: http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/08/13/the-zune-hd-september-15-apple-ipod-event-likely-september-8/

Of course what dell experiances....

[petermgreen]

....and what the high street experiances may be different. Afaict the people who buy computers in high street chains are usually those who don't know any better.

It probablly also makes a difference that dell is loading a proper linux distro rather than the crappy vendor specific stuff that some vendors have been loading.

No, they don't suck.

[jotaeleemeese]

To say that Firefox sucks is frankly pure spite.

Many of us are using OpenOffice and exchange files with MS only shops without any issues.

Audio support in Linux is quite good for most people. Amarok and Audacity cover most bases.

Video support is patchy, but each release of every video product gets better (there was a time WMV files were not supported, not you can play them out of the box).

Re:No, they don't suck.

[techprophet]

(there was a time WMV files were not supported, now you can play them out of the box).

There, fixed that for you. For once this isn't a joke...

Computers aren't just a tool.

[jotaeleemeese]

The underlying political and economical issues at play are widely explained by proponents of the FOSS movement.

What is at play is the access to your own frigging data.

If you don't understand why this transcends the purely utilitarian nature of a computer and its software, then I can't help you....

I just bought a mini10v

[Facegarden]

I just bought a mini 10v, but I got it with windows because the price was the same, and I figure a free XP license is a good deal. I can always put Ubuntu on it and use that legally licensed copy of XP where I might really use it.

I also have gotten into the habit of writing down or snapping a pic of the license sticker on old PCs people throw away. A computer from 2002 might not be that useful, but an XP license from then is just as good as one now. You can use any XP disk, because it's the key that matters (well, keep OEM disks with OEM licenses, but yeah).

I jumped on vista right away and had vista ultimate on my home PC (bought the upgrade, but that was when MS gave people the option of just using an upgrade copy just for using the Beta, so it wasn't too bad) and when I finally couldn't stand Vista, I used an XP license from an old PC i found. It worked out great! :)

-Taylor

Re:I just bought a mini10v

[Skapare]

Be sure to make a FULL DRIVE IMAGE backup of the hard drive that has Windows on it, before putting Linux on it, even if you have a restore DVD. You can do that with the Ubuntu install DVD by starting a command line terminal shell. The earlier you do this, the smaller the compressed result will be. Unless you want to make a full size image copy to an equal sized external drive, it is best to make a compressed copy. The bzip2 compression is smaller when there are lots of blocks that have not been used and still contain binary zeros, but it runs slower (several hours for a 250GB drive). The gzip compression is faster, but the result is larger.

A typical command (with some optimizing options shows) might be (after the place to save the image is mounted) might be (everything all on ONE command line despite how your browser splits it into two or more lines):

dd if=/dev/sda iflag=direct ibs=1048576 obs=16384 | bzip2 -9 > /media/windows-2009-08-14.img.bz2

Be sure to backup the WHOLE device (no number at the end of the device name for Linux users) and not a partition. BSD users will need to use a different device name.

Re:I just bought a mini10v

[Facegarden]

Be sure to make a FULL DRIVE IMAGE backup of the hard drive that has Windows on it, before putting Linux on it, even if you have a restore DVD. You can do that with the Ubuntu install DVD by starting a command line terminal shell. The earlier you do this, the smaller the compressed result will be. Unless you want to make a full size image copy to an equal sized external drive, it is best to make a compressed copy. The bzip2 compression is smaller when there are lots of blocks that have not been used and still contain binary zeros, but it runs slower (several hours for a 250GB drive). The gzip compression is faster, but the result is larger.

A typical command (with some optimizing options shows) might be (after the place to save the image is mounted) might be (everything all on ONE command line despite how your browser splits it into two or more lines):

dd if=/dev/sda iflag=direct ibs=1048576 obs=16384 | bzip2 -9 > /media/windows-2009-08-14.img.bz2

Be sure to backup the WHOLE device (no number at the end of the device name for Linux users) and not a partition. BSD users will need to use a different device name.

Hmm, interesting, but I'd probably just do a fresh install with an OEM disk if I ever put windows back on it, rather than trying to restore anything. The mini 10v was $99 with the purchase of another dell laptop, and I already have a desktop, so it will be my 3rd PC (not counting my media center, heh). I'm not planning on storing any data on it that i care about.

Or is there some other reason to do all that backing up?

Or, i suppose it doesn't have a disk drive, huh?

I haven't thought too much about it.
-Taylor

If Dell wants to do it right

[mfraz74]

They should stop recommending Windows Vista on all their adverts oh and have clearer links on their site to the LInux machines.

Re:If Dell wants to do it right

[Anonymous Coward]

What? So you actually want them to go out of business? Jesus Christ, you Linux nuts are really out of touch with reality.

If they offered Mac os X as an option

[SendBot]

They'd have to open new factories to produce all the ones they'd sell. People get a big kick out of seeing it on my mini9, and it's way more powerful than the PBG4 I used for a long time.

Officially, apple says that their users don't want the mac experience on a dinky netbook. I think they're just holding off the would-be ravenous crowds until they can get their own (tablet?) out the gate.

Dell UK. ()

[NickFortune]

I suspect that, while the enthusiasm on ideastorm is real, it isn't wildly representative.

It isn't representative of Dell UK, I can tell you much. End of last year, I bought the wife a new laptop. She's a fan of Ubuntu, so I got her a Dell Inspiron with Ubuntu preloaed. She loves it - never been the least bit bother.

A month ago, my old laptop finally gave up the ghost, and I thought (seeing as how the Missus' machine was so reliable) that a Dell machine might be the way to go.

So I go to Dell's UK website, only to find that the only Ubuntu option they now offer is a minimum spec netbook - and that I suspect only because Michael Dell threatened to remove their testicles if they didn't offer something.

I suppose ... if I'd wanted to phone them up, and if I'd been willing to spend the time arguing, I could probably have got my preloaded Ubuntu system. Instead, I thought "sod it" and order an Acer instead.

I do wonder if Dell are aware of they shenanigans going on at their UK subsidiary sometimes. Operating system evangelism is all very well, but this is costing them sales, you know?

Re:Dell UK. ()

[legirons]

I suppose ... if I'd wanted to phone them up, and if I'd been willing to spend the time arguing, I could probably have got my preloaded Ubuntu system.
Instead, I thought "sod it" and order an Acer instead.

I do wonder if Dell are aware of they shenanigans going on at their UK subsidiary sometimes. Operating system evangelism is all very well, but this is costing them sales, you know?

That's pretty much how I remember Dell. All I wanted was a decent PC but with KDE and not Windows. Ubuntu wasn't available at all for 'business' machines (i.e. not pink laptops), and if I wanted RedHat I could phone them up and ask for a quote (i.e. no special offers). No thanks, I'll go for a company with linux PCs on their front page.

They must know how to preinstall different OS easily, since every Dell PC has a big long list of Windows options.

Re:Dell UK. ()

[jimicus]

They must know how to preinstall different OS easily, since every Dell PC has a big long list of Windows options.

I imagine (though IANAOEM) they have a bunch of images for each machine. If they don't have an image for a given OS/machine combination, they can't ask the factory to install it.

Re:Dell UK. ()

[Shikaku]

Or you can, you know, do it yourself.

Re:Dell UK. ()

[the_B0fh]

and that's OP's point - it doesn't take a rocket scientist to create an image for kubuntu. It even comes with a freaking image builder for OEMs for gods sakes...

Re:Dell UK. ()

[cheftw]

That's funny, I'm currently embroiled in an argument with Acer over refunding my Windows tax. (They want me to pay for it (considerably more than the value of the refund)).

Moral of the story? You just can't win with these bastards.

Re:Dell UK. ()

[NickFortune]

That's funny, I'm currently embroiled in an argument with Acer over refunding my Windows tax

I must admit, I didn't bother trying to claim that back at all. I just didn't feel like rewarding Dell for withdrawing the only O/S option which interested me.

Re:Dell UK. ()

[IRWolfie-]

sure you can ... after being forced to buy windows

Re:Dell UK. ()

[jimicus]

Firstly, the image builder is only half the problem. You also need the resulting images to integrate with the mechanism Dell are using to roll them out - and Dell aren't going to change that just because the images generated can only be applied using a particular program.

Secondly, where Linux generally tends to fall down regarding desktop hardware is with newly-released hardware. It's unusual to find stable drivers available much less than 6 months after the initial release of a new sound chip, for instance. Not ideal if your business processes are set up so you put together the images once when the hardware is first produced and then never touch them for months.

Re:Dell UK. ()

[legirons]

Or you can, you know, do it yourself.

Thanks, but I don't want to add to the stats showing number of people who "want" Windows.

Re:Dell UK. ()

[ricotest]

Unfortunately in the UK, if you go into Currys, Argos, Maplin, pretty much anywhere and buy a netbook, it'll have Windows XP on it. The only way to get Linux on a netbook is to purchase an Acer Aspire One, buy Windows and install over it, or go to Amazon or another online seller and hope you can find a Linux version of the model you want.

Re:Dell UK. ()

[sowth]

If you are a major computer distributor, you have more than enough clout to demand the company who supplies your sound chips give you Linux drivers. Saying Dell can't do that is bullshit.

Re:Dell UK. ()

[Anonymous Coward]

Firstly, the image builder is only half the problem. You also need the resulting images to integrate with the mechanism Dell are using to roll them out - and Dell aren't going to change that just because the images generated can only be applied using a particular program.

uhh, don't understand any of that, but why is it so easy to do if your target is Windows and so hard to do if you want Linux?

XP gets returned becasue it's too slow

[davecb]

In the store where I bought a Aspire, the clerk offered a "refurbished" model with XP for a lower price. I asked him if they were being returned because they were too slow, and he shamefacedly admitted that was the case.

--dave

Re:XP gets returned becasue it's too slow

[ParanoiaBOTS]

In the store where I bought a Aspire, the clerk offered a "refurbished" model with XP for a lower price. I asked him if they were being returned because they were too slow, and he shamefacedly admitted that was the case.

--dave

This doesn't mean that XP is too slow, most likely the machine either has some manufacturer issues, or some hardware fault, or it is just underpowered.

Maybe M$ is right

[Anonymous Coward]

I worked at a common retail outlet until recently and I know for a fact around 80% of the linux netbooks we sold were returned. Perhaps people that order them from dell actually realize that they are buying a linux based system.

Just a thought...

[FlyingSquidStudios]

This is not specific to Dell, but Netbooks in general. The goal of the Netbook builders seem to be making them as cheap as possible and that is one of the many reasons why they choose free Linux over costly Windows. However, simply because they are making them as cheap as possible, they're also just shoddy computers and they get returned because of that. I have and likely always will be of the opinion that 99% of computer users don't care what OS they use as long as they can surf the web, check their e-mail, do their taxes, etc.

Correction

[Anonymous Coward]

The summary says "Dell executive deflated Microsoft's claims that Linux notebooks" once and it should be "netbooks". I got all excited at the beginning of the article thinking of full notebooks w/ Linux only to be saddened.

Some Linux Netbooks are not 'hidden'

[RotateLeftByte]

Take the UK arm of Walmart. They are selling an Elonex Netbook with Linux for less than £150.00 However, I'd like to see XP or Vista running on it. 2Gb SSD 128Mb Ram http://direct.asda.com/Laptops-+-Handhelds/4061,default,sc.html The Elonex is in plain view. There is another model available for £190.00 Via CPU 512Mb Ram 80Gb HDD There you have it, even Walmart is selling Linux Netbooks.

Re:Some Linux Netbooks are not 'hidden'

[Svartalf]

Ah, but Dell's aren't hidden. See the post below yours that I did, running an experiment to see if his claims were at all true. :-D

Obvious confusion

[Skapare]

Microsoft: Dell netbooks with Linux are being returned at 4 to 5 times the number of Dells with Windows.

Dell: Our netbooks are being returned for technical issues at the same rate regardless of the OS.

Uh ... they aren't talking about the same thing. What Microsoft is saying is NOT that netbooks with Linux are somehow broken, but rather, people are just unhappy with them and returning them (for replacement with a Windows version or money back). Dell seems to think the statement is claiming that Dell machines break more with Linux. Dell is probably pretty sensitive in that way for some reason like maybe they have a history of cheap hardware that breaks a lot. Microsoft is just trying to say that people who do try Linux find out they prefer Windows (which could be for one of many reasons, such as a favorite game is designed to only run on Windows and they didn't realize the issue until they tried to install it on Linux).

I recently bought a netbook (ASUS EEE). I specifically got one with Windows XP on it, instead of with Linux on it, despite my intention to use Linux on it. Since I plan to put my own Linux on it, the factory installed Linux does me no good as an alternative fallback OS. I image-copied the 16GB SSD (compressed down to 2.6GB) that had Windows on it to other storage media and saved a few copies of it. I verified that restoring it to the SSD even works (booting up after each restore, it goes into the "new user" setup again). Now if I ever need Windows for some reason, I can restore one of those images and I have it. Had I chosen the netbook with Linux, what I'd have would be Linux I could use instead of Linux.

My point here is that sales rates for netbooks with Windows will be higher for reasons that don't always involve Windows being the preferred OS. Because Linux has traditionally been "an Internet OS" (e.g. an OS you get by downloading it from the internet), this will always skew sales figures.

At least it's XP instead of Vista.

Re:XP gets returned becauee it's too slow

[davecb]

Actually it means the customers were complaining that they was too slow when they brought them back. It's definitely underpowered, it's just that Linux doesn't care (;-))

The clerk did say that a lot of people did take the Linux model in it's place, an I suggested they copy Linux onto some of the XP returns.

--dave

High returns?

[PPH]

I think Dell will take them back whether you are stoned or not.

Dell Ubuntu Repositories

[Anonymous Coward]

I imagine that part of it is that Dell has its own Ubuntu repositories and you can't upgrade higher than Heron. I had to burn my own Ubuntu ISO to fix that and based on all of the forums I read in the process, that is the only way.

Where are the returned netbooks?

[jshackney]

So, where does one get one of these returned Linux netbooks? I'd love to get a couple more and spend a little less right now.

I'd better get a windows netbook

[s1d3track3D]

Wow, thanks, I guess I'm out of touch, I didn't even know this was an issue.

Well, now that I know that it's been implied that people are returning linux netbooks, there must be something wrong with linux on netbooks and probably linux in general and since folks are not returning many windows netbooks, then windows 7 must be superior, so I'd better get a new windows 7 netbook right away.

Thanks Microsoft, that was a close one

Or...

[raehl]

A customer who buys a computer with Linux preloaded is likely to be more techncially savvy than a customer who buys a computer with Windows preloaded, and technically savvy customers are less likely to encounter issues that prompt them to return the purchase?

Re:Or...

[rtfa-troll]

duhhh... oh. You're right; why didn't I think of that at the time. At least that or some similar Linux user difference (customers more tolerant of small glitches?). That would actually make them a valuable market for Dell, especially if it can be continued into more and more mass market.

Why are they returning

[bjoeg]

If there was any substance to the claim, then it would be fun if it turned out that it was ordinary people returning the Linux laptops simply because "I cannot install word or find Internet Explorer"

It doesnt matter whats installed

[voss]

I bought a compaq windows notebook and replaced it with linux mint because I didnt want windows in the first place.

Most people buying a linux netbook from dell know exactly what they are getting.

Took DELL long enough

[techprophet]

Took them long enough to debunk this. I have non-computer guru friends who (unknowningly) got DELL netbooks with linux on them, and never noticed a thing.

Re:XP gets returned becauee it's too slow

[Miguelito]

I picked up a refurb'd Aspire One off woot a couple weeks ago to play with. The default XP install definitely feels slower then the Ubuntu NR install I'm playing with. But overall it does feel way underpowered for any "real" use, i.e. aside from casual browsing. Though the keyboard is awkwardly small enough to make it not good for heavy typing anyway.

It barely can play some video files I encoded ages ago... might be good for watching some of those vids on a plane vs on my iphone though.

blah blah Linux blah blah Linux blah blah Windows

[Anonymous Coward]

Who cares? I am bored. Linux is a stinking rehash of a thirty five year old operating system. Who really gives a stink? Windows blah blah blah. Who cares? And don't get me started on Mac OS/X. Broken piece of trash. "Oh, but it never gets any viruses!" Who cares? It never does anything useful either. Where have we gone in the last thirty years? All for naught! Now BeOS? That was a good try. To bad it didn't get a chance to fly any further because it had some nice capabilities, some interesting media models. Amiga, that was kinda cool, though it withered on the vine. To bad they didn't turn either of those loose under an Open Source license. The bastard child of Amiga and BeOS might have been interesting. How about Plan 9? Nice network model. Nice distribution model, and now out in an Open Source form, but where has it gone? Nada. Too bad, because I am sick of dealing with ancient cruft. "Linux is modern!" you say. Bunk. And you know it too. Yeah yeah yeah, it has support for all the goodies and tools you have come to know and love. Big deal, I out grew my '68 'cuda a long time ago. Cars from the '70s are junk compared to cars built in the last ten years, and OS concepts from the '70s are just as bad. God. Bad cars, bad disco, bad clothes, bad Operating Systems. Can we get something better going? I was hoping for the 'future' before I retired. I was hoping for a car that would drive itself before I got elderly. What you say? Its gonna run Linux? No thanks, I'll walk. (If its running Windows I ain't even walking....)

Fig leaves don't have to be true

[Anonymous Coward]

The ratio of netbooks shipping with Linux, instead of Windows XP, has plummeted. There have been reports of Microsoft arm twisting netbook hardware manufacturers. So my impression is "return rates" are a fig leaf, a cover story. Microsoft isn't yet again illegally abusing its monopoly position. Oh no, of course not. It's the difference in return rates which explains the change! Or at least, which muddies the waters, and so makes prosecution even more unlikely. Especially since it's only a short-term effort.

Stronger machines and Windows 7 features seem likely to reestablish hegemony. Microsoft didn't need to bend or break the law, to eliminate the competition rather than competing with it. The window for Linux establishing a beachhead largely ends with Vista. But... we're talking about Microsoft. The 10 billion dollar company which babbles about being threatened by start-ups in garages. And so salts the earth.

Summary's language is weird

[selven]

Microsoft's claims that Linux notebooks have return rates four or five times higher than Windows machines.

the numberof Linux returns are approximately the same as those for Windows netbooks.

So Linux has a 16-20% notebook market share? Or is the summary's language screwed up?

Say What?

[NickFortune]

Firstly, the image builder is only half the problem. You also need the resulting images to integrate with the mechanism Dell are using to roll them out - and Dell aren't going to change that just because the images generated can only be applied using a particular program.

That's right It's a little known fact that the bits in Microsoft operating systems are 20% larger than the ones in *nix based systems. That means that Dell would have to retrain the army of cyborg hamsters it currently uses to package the bits into bytes and glue them onto the HD platter, and they'd have to repeat the exercise for each machine they shipped because hamsters have poor long-term recall.

It's a disk image for Grud's sake. You write it onto a disk. Job done. What's the problem?

Re:Say What?

[jimicus]

It's a disk image for Grud's sake. You write it onto a disk. Job done. What's the problem?

Except that you can't necessarily use Acronis to restore an image created with Norton Ghost, nor can you restore such an image with dd.

True block imaging is not actually used that often in most imaging products - in essence the images they create are normally a glorified tarball with details of partition layout, boot record, filesystems etc.

Re:Say What?

[NickFortune]

It's still a software only operation, and a one time cost to set up.

It's hardly going to be a significant technical challenge for a company like Dell.

Re:Say What?

[jimicus]

It's hardly going to be a significant technical challenge for a company like Dell.

You ever dealt with Dell? Elephants don't gallop.

Re:Say What?

[NickFortune]

Elephants don't gallop.

They do however breathe.

All they have to do is take a disc from a working, prototype system; use it to generate an image in whatever format their production lines require; and upload it to the shop floor.

You're not going persuade me that any of the above presents Dell with a non-trivial problem. Not given the nature of their core business.

Re:Say What?

[the_B0fh]

It's called being an apologist

What Asus did wrong with the EEE

[sowth]

Everything worked okay, except the OS it shipped with had serious security holes. Especially with the ancient version of Samba. Last time I checked, they were never fixed. perimetergrid.com - asus eee pc and linux vmsplice vulnerabilities.

Also the restore disk was a CD (The EEE doesn't have a CD drive), and it was MS Windows only (so you had to have a windows machine to use it). So if I did need to reinstall the OS my netbook came with for some reason, I would need not only a separate computer, but it has to be one running a MS OS. I do have other computers, but they all run Linux.

The drivers did not work with people's favorite distro because the hardware Asus chose wasn't compatible with Linux. For example, the Atheros wireless chipset wasn't open sourced until after Asus shipped their EEEs. The drivers were introduced into the 2.6.29 or .30 kernel. Most distros probably don't even have that version on their repositories today.

These are all things which asus did wrong. This isn't a reason not to ever buy from them, but if my choice was between a EEE and a netbook which didn't have these problems, I would choose the other netbook.

I just don't get why they never updated the kernel or samba.

Re:What Asus did wrong with the EEE

[jhol13]

The drivers did not work with people's favorite distro because the hardware Asus chose wasn't compatible with Linux.

I think the opposite: Linux was/is not compatible with the hardware and device drivers. This is the thing Linux does wrong. There is absolutely no good reason to purposefully break device drivers.

"Slows down the development" is bullshit argument - it does not slow down OS-X, Windows, OpenSolaris, *BSD, ... As is "forces companies to open source drivers" - it affects *more* open source drivers than closed ones, it is more PITA for users than companies, and most importantly, open sourcing the drivers does not help at all (there are drivers which has been open sourced ~5 years ago and still they pose problems to users).

Re:What Asus did wrong with the EEE

[sowth]

How do they purposefully break drivers? Which drivers are you talking about? All the hardware drivers which don't work are this way because the manufacturer doesn't supply sufficient specs. At least the ones I know about.

What, you think they are supposed to guess how the black box works by sacrificing a chicken, and BOOM, their drivers work? It does not work that way. If they don't have specifications, then they have to guess and reverse engineer to make a driver. This takes a really long time and is not reliable.

Re:What Asus did wrong with the EEE

[jhol13]

You should search for the kernel developer comment on why they do - purposefully - break drivers.
Anyway you cannot copy driver from 2.6.y to 2.6.y+1, it will not be loaded.

I really have to make a web page:
MTP008 - was in 2.4 was dropped in 2.6.
Peracom USB ethernet adapter - stopped working while in kernel tree (i.e. was untested by the developers - probably did not give a shit)
DiBcom 7070 based DVB-T tuners - manufacturer helped to make device driver ~5 years ago. Not in kernel tree.
Various gspcav based USB video cameras - not in kernel tree.
Several WiFi cards (e.g. EeePCs). Now in 9.04 works - years later.

I want you to tell me how I should do in the (hypothetical) case I want to make Linux laptop, say with a 3G chip (or touchscreen or ...). Let's assume the chip is in testing phase and there is no support for it anywhere. I start the development soon and plan on releasing, say christmas 2010. Obviously I do not want to release specs to the wild as competitors would get me. I probably cannot release the specs especially if the chip is in development.

So what is the procedure to get the laptop out?

Wishes: I'd like to keep the source closed at least for a while so that big competitors could not immediately cut me. I'd like to support as many distributions as possible - after all people do have preferences and I cannot afford to do my own distribution anyway. Neither can I afford to keep compiling & testing the driver for every distribution and kernel version.

So what is your advice?