Slashdot Mirror
Is Working For the Gambling Industry a Black Mark?
An anonymous reader writes 'I'm a recent university graduate and I have been offered a software developer position in a company that supplies software to the gambling and betting industry. At first I was very excited about the opportunity, however, a few of my friends have told me that working for the gambling industry will put a permanent black mark on my career as a software developer. I don't know that many people in the industry with experience in hiring. Google has not helped, and everybody else I ask doesn't know. So I'm asking Slashdot. In your experience is this true? When you hire developers, is the fact that they worked for a gambling company a big turn off? Also, I'm currently in the UK, but would like the freedom of working in US or somewhere else later on in life. So experience from anywhere in the world is welcome.'
More of a roll of the dice.
what about adult websites dev/design/building/hosting. gambling on the resume can't be worse then porn.
Personally, I've never heard of this. But do you really want to gamble with your career?
/rimshot
Seriously, as a hiring manager I care if you can do the job I am hiring you for. If that's software development then that means I'm looking for education, experience, and successfully completed projects. I really can't delve into the minds of HR types so I guess they might hold it against you in the more conservative parts of the country, but they are generally used as a glorified GREP from what I have seen.
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
I work in the Gaming Industry in Nevada. Its not a black-mark on your resume from any societal/value thing. However, its a boring, crappy, narrow-minded industry. get out now and do something more interesting.
Why would it be a black mark?
If anything, it shows that you can work in a highly regulated field that moves a LOT of money around at a LOT of locations with HIGH security.
As long as none of your references are named Guido, you should be fine.
Why would it be? I started my software career in porn, and it worked out well for me. What kind of employer cares what industry you've developed software for in the past?
I don't respond to AC's.
Sounds like an old wife's tale. Never heard of anything like this.
I just remembered that over ten years ago I worked for a company that supplied software for state lotteries. That was many jobs ago, and I don't recall that ever becoming any kind of an issue. And, on my resumes I described that job just like all others on my resume. And, as far as my "career" as a software developer, I am making a few orders of magnitude now, then back then. No complaints about my career -- and in the financial industry to boot, where any sniff of something bad in one's background gets you permanently blackballed.
http://ask.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/11/26/1758210
Gambling is about screwing money out of stupid, statistically illiterate and not entirely mentally stable people. A large chunk of those people do not, whatever slashdot groupthink may sometimes seem to say, deserve it (there is no groupthink, just random bunch of nerds). You will be earning money from other people's suffering. Doing it for long or doing it often is not a sign of a person I want on my team.
=~ s,(.*),<sarcasm>$1</sarcasm>,g if any_point_you_wish();
Not as bad as playboy / other porn fields.
and Gambling is bigger on security tech then most other places even most of the us gov.
In today's economy, a job is a job
Maybe if this, working for the gambling industry, is your concern, you don't really need a job.
Admittedly I've never worked with anyone from that industry, but that's more due to location (I don't live near Vegas). Depending on what you're doing, some skills will be useful and some won't. I don't see any reason why not to hire someone because they worked in gambling. For that matter I know a lot of programmers who play poker.
I might stay away from internet gambling sites if you want to work in the US though- the US has arrested executives of them before. But it's not that gambling is a black mark, its that running an online gambling site is illegal, and they might decide to arrest you for helping to do so. The company that hired you is unlikely to care about that though.
I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
Seriously, how is programming for gambling all that much different than programming for insurance or actuarial purposes?
Bet a dollar, bet your health, bet your life... it's all in the odds, no?
My first job after college was in the gaming industry. It has NOT been a black mark on my record, in fact, quite the opposite, it led to my next three jobs and was a factor in the fourth and fifth because another programmer from the same company was also contracting there at the time.
What it did do, though, was set the start of a pattern for me that I've been unable to escape: 1 to 2 year positions at small companies contracting. I suspect that if you're going to work for Bally Midway or some other such big slot machine company, that wouldn't be a problem- but table gaming software even 10 years after the .com I first worked for is still very much in it's infancy, we're not about to replace dealers with robots and just about tech you put into the pit is going to be somewhat hackable or vulnerable to everything from card counting to spilled alcoholic drinks they insist on comping the players with to keep them playing, so it's kind of a tough business to get into. I'm glad I escaped.
Having said that- in this economy a RCG can't pick and choose- you MUST take the first thing that comes along- so go ahead and go for it. Vegas may be the suicide capitol of the US, but it isn't the worst place you could end up living.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
[quote]a software developer position in a company that supplies software to the gambling and betting industry[/quote] Seems to me that the worst thing that could happen is you work for a company called "We hire unreliable louts" or maybe "Bad gambles, Inc". As you probably can predetermine this, you shouldn't worry about anything that your instincts don't already clue you in on. Your friends are probably just narrow minded or jealous. Just make sure that your official job title doesn't hint at bookmaking, card dealing, or something called 'fluffing' and you will be OK.
Anything can be a black mark if the person hiring dislikes it. There is nothing particularly unique about gambling.
Based on this answer of "yes", I would be under the impression that ANY software development company would be overjoyed to hire you ...given that the qualifications are "screwing money out of stupid, statistically illiterate and not entirely mentally stable people".
Speaking of which ... I have to go and pick up my copy of Windows Vista.
L'esperienza de questa dolce vita (The experience of this sweet life) - Dante Alighieri, The Divine Comedy
Perhaps this is a quaint notion, but: I'd be more concerned with the black mark on my soul.
That word should mean something to you, regardless of whether you're a materialist physicalist skeptical rationalist naturalistic realistic reductionist scientific atheist or otherwise.
British, working in the gambling industry, and possibly wanting to visit the US in the future? Why don't you ask David Carruthers, Gary Kaplan how that worked out for them?
(To be fair, they were the guys at the top and I haven't heard of any lower level staff being arrested, but still, I doubt US immigration would look too kindly on it if you ever were to apply for a green card.)
I've interviewed many applicants for software engineering positions, and several have had previous positions developing software for gaming machines. I actually see this as a good thing, because those developers are often more suitable as they have better coding habits and are more aware of solid, robust programming practices due to the stringent requirements placed on gaming machines.
Get some new friends. Those friends obviously don't want you to get a job that may elevate you above them.
If you worked for an "established" company, i.e. a brick&mortar casino or a maker of slot machines, it should not be a problem. I'm sure that the gambling industry faces lots of interesting challenges (i.e. random number generation, security, following regulations...) Now, if you worked in the shadier side of the industry (online "casinos", "yOu already W0N 1ooo dollrs" emails and the like), well, that could be a problem with many potential employers.
Nobox: Only simple products.
You will be earning money from other people's suffering
But...do you know what would happen if all the casinos in America closed their doors? Their clients would open their own gambling clubs.
People want to gamble. Its not like the casinos force the people through the door or anything. The demand for the service (however stupid it may be) is very high.
In fact, if you try to force people to stop gambling, they just break the law and do it illegally. They want to gamble that badly.
So I think you are wrong in blaming the player's desires on those who provide the games. They are just responding to market forces, like everyone else does.
I might see why it would be wrong to "push" gambling on to people. But simply providing a place really isn't evil.
He wouldn't fit on your team anyway. Unless he's a cuddly toy, a Star Wars figurine or an inflatable woman.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
I've learned over the years that you may have to take jobs that aren't the most socially redeeming as you would hope. The trick is to make sure your resume is written so as to downplay the company versus the actual coding. As an example you could say that you had work on statistical analysis of number sequences.
That being said I was offered a job that was described as high volume video streaming over the web. When I showed up it was a porn video streaming company with multiple cubicles each with it's own actor performing for the camera. Needless to say I decided to turn them down.
I'm a manager in an engineering firm (think the pointy-haired boss, but less clueless) - although we don't do software development, we occasionally have the need for code analysts. I think it's highly unlikely that experience with a gambling firm would be disqualifying. If you know your stuff, you should be good to go. Just list the official company name (which probably doesn't scream "we do gambling") on your resume, and focus on the technology you actually use and are familiar with. You should be fine.
When we hire we look for web application development experience, database experience etc., if you're coming in from a gaming dev. background we might assume you can program, but we definitely assume you will need 9-18 months in the position until your developing at the same speed as the rest of us because you lack familiarity with the common problems and APIs. So when we secure a work contract with a client and need people to start ASAP, we need people who are already skilled up in the same problem domain.
But there's something else too, how interesting is an ex gaming programmer going to find working on boring business apps? Do we really want to take the risk on hiring them when they haven't yet proven they can handle the tedium of business apps?
In Nevada. If you were to move elsewhere, though, you might be surprised.
(Might be. I personally don't know... I just think that perspectives might be a bit skewed in Nevada due to Vegas).
"Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
I worked in the gaming industry, and didnt have any problem getting work afterward. My next employer was pleased that I had worked in a highly regulated industry where if our new code caused downtime, we had to explain to a state gaming board about how it happened.
Let's rephrase this. You are considering working on web-based financial applications in a highly regulated sector. I'll give you a quick guess at the ratio of people with those skills that are needed vs available.
Showgirls.
Oh, to be a young college grad working in Vegas!
And prostitution is legal!
It's NOT me! It's the meds! I'm on 1000mg of Fukitol.
Whether it is porn or gambling or some other vice, there will be foes of course, but it shouldn't be difficult to deflect any negative questioning with remarks to the effect of the reason you exited the industry being conscience related.
I once worked for a free news publication with a great deal of "adult services" advertising and was asked about that. I simply said that it was a bit of a surprise, a shock and was distasteful at times, but eventually I found other work and exited the business. That seemed to answer the question sufficiently, but who knows for sure... the point is that I was indeed asked about my connection with a morally questionable business.
Well, anecdotal evidence but I do live in Vegas and I worked in a non gaming software company here with people who previously worked for gaming companies and moved on to other jobs without any problems. One of them works for a major military contractor right now, after working for IGT (who makes most of Vegas slot machines) for years. So I don't think it's a problem. I guess it depends on the details. If your job offer is from one of the offshore poker sites or other sites illegal in the USA, it might be a different story.
Negative moral value of force outweighs the positive value of good intentions.
It's never been an issue for me, and out of my approximately 15 years in IT, I've spent about 10 of them working for gaming or wagering companies. If anything, gaming or wagering companies seem to prefer people with experience in that industry, so in effect you are probably creating more opportunities for yourself down the track rather than less.
Oh, and if you're getting into a highly regulated area such as slots or table games, you'll find that you'll have no choice but to gain skills in careful attention to detail in areas like version control, configuration management, hardware control, and security. That sort of rigour in those important things will serve you well no matter what your next role.
I'm in the gaming industry, and I've interviewed and worked with plenty of people who started out writing gambling software. I wouldn't have any problem hiring someone out of that field, and neither would my colleagues and coworkers. Now, outside of gaming in general, in the world or grown-up software? Not sure about that...
You've just described about 90% of all jobs.
In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is usually crucified.
We seem to get a lot of these sorts of questions at /. -- and as someone who interviews and makes hiring decisions, let me tell you about the number one factor for making the call:
The Value Proposition
At the end of the day, what I'm doing is entering into an agreement where I give you money (and things that cost money, ie. benefits), and you give me your labor. Your skills and experience and a few other factors (ie. culture fit) alter your "productivity", or how much "labor" I get for my money. In other words, I am spending my money on you, and I want to make sure I get good "value" for that money.
As such, I really don't particularly care who you worked for in the past, unless it can be used as some predictor of future performance. I do care about the skills and experience you have picked up along the way, your personality, your thought-process, etc.
Occasionally, very occasionally, the "where you used to work" question does become relevant. If your last job was for a blood-relative, that is going to be a yellow-flag that needs further investigation and verification. That's probably the most common scenario where it comes into play.
There's a really really good chance that the OP doesn't work in Vegas. I know plenty of people that worked for IGT Reno, or SDG and did gaming work most of which was never slated for release in Nevada. I would agree that regardless of where your gambling software is going to be used, it's still very narrow minded industry.
I live in michigan and if you have a job to place on a resume its a good sign. At this point in michigan I think they'll accept drug dealer as relevant job experience
Is your next employer(s) a highly religious zealot? If so, yes, be concerned. And not just because they might frown down on your heathenish past!
Otherwise, why would you ever think it to be bad? They have high security and confidentiality concerns, what employer would see your experience and involvement with a high-security job as a bad thing?
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IGT in Reno Nevada was one of the top recruiters for hardware and software engineers at my university. There is nothing wrong with working for them, but most graduating students had a bit of a stigma against it just because it was everybody's fallback plan. That, and working there is like a college reunion when half their employees are from the same school. I think the bottom line is, if it is the best offer you have then you should take it. Fresh graduates do not usually have the luxury to pick and choose their first job; you need experience before you can do that.
Showgirls.
If they're not Real Estate Agents/Mortgage Brokers/Daytime Call Girls, they're vampires. You never EVER see them during the day, they pancake on the make-up with a trowel for good reason, and most of them are either taken by large burly boyfriends, or not interested in anything with a Y chromosome.
Oh, to be a young college grad working in Vegas!
Been there, done that. Fought in the dating wars in Vegas from '01-'06. And the only way you ever got lucky was if you had money (to buy girls with), or were a "Vegas Boy", meaning you had no body fat, perfect abs, perfect tan, perfect teeth, perfect hair, wore polo shirts and khaki shorts, and generally sported more bling than most girls do. Oh, and driving a hot car. Just remember, Vegas is one of the few places left in the US where you don't have to have a high school degree to make 40K a year. Lotsa dim, good-looking young boys and girls come to Vegas to party, work crap jobs and make lots of money, which they then promptly spend on partying, and repeat.
And prostitution is legal!
Now this is a valid point. But prostitution is only legal in certain sections of the county, and not in Clark County. So you'd have to drive an hour northwest to Pahrump, where the brothels are at. This is what the smart guys do. Prostitution is NOT legal in Vegas itself, and Vegas Metro's Vice division has lots of fun arresting stupid young dicks trying to pick some tail up when they could have driven an hour away and had lots of tail for the same amount of cash LEGALLY. And then there's the stories of all the scams and robberies perpetrated... Oh yes, loads of fun. Couldn't leave there fast enough.
Here's to hot beer, cold women, and Glaswegian kisses for all.
Imagine yourself, some day in the future, working at the company of your dreams. You're talking with your new colleagues, and one asks you, "So where did you work?" You tell them: "I worked for ." If I felt that the work was honest and that the company wasn't corrupt, I don't see why I would feel ashamed telling them this. So, in my opinion, you'll probably be fine.
It would be different, I think, if you had worked at a porn company, but that's just my general feeling.
I say go for it. You could end up in Atlantic City, New Jersey in one of Donald Trump's hotels. You would be New York City and Washington DC about 3 hours away. The cultural experience would be quite remarkable I think. Then again, you might end up on a riverboat on the Mississippi river having to work in a cramped cubicle below the waterline.
A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver --Proverbs 25:11
The way banks and other financial services companies operate these days, working in gambling would be a GREAT introduction to the world of credit default swaps and mortgage-backed securities. Next stop: WALL STREET!
You never have to work again... write in a special "hit the jackpot" sequence, visit all your customers' casinos over a weekend, and skip the country. Oh, and your friends are idiots.
I work in the Gaming Industry in Nevada. Its not a black-mark on your resume from any societal/value thing. However, its a boring, crappy, narrow-minded industry. get out now and do something more interesting.
"These are tough times. Hard to find yourself work. A man can get a job, he might not look too close at what that job is."
(Firefly quote, but I remember it applying to me once before)
I don't care much about what business previous employers are in, unless it is very similar to mine. I care if your knowledge and experience are relevant to my business. I would also like the idea of your previous employer being very serious about reliability.
more cowbell
I don't see experience with a gambling site to be an instant disqualifier. Maybe if that's the only kind of site you were involved in it would be, but if it's one of various projects, it shouldn't be big deal.
The only time a resume gets thrown into the trashcan right away is if I see "telemarketing" in any fashion that doesn't involve stopping them or hunting them down. It's something you try to hide, not something to put on your resume. I want someone with some brains.
Also, as an aside: try to avoid going into detail about any activities that are trivial compared to the job you're applying for. Some people seem to think that if they have a 10 page resume padded with irrelevant history, they'll look better. Nope, doesn't work.
see a Text Widget
As somebody who DID work as a systems administrator for a publicly traded, Canadian based company that supplies software to the online gambling industry I can say that unless you're an executive it will have no bearing on your future employment any more than working for an 'evil' defence contractor or such will. Sure, you'd have a hard time getting a job at amnesty international after working for BEA, but the experience you'll get will open more doors elsewhere. The company had far more trouble hiring people who were willing to work for the company, in fact. Though in Canada 'online gambling' had a much more negative connotation than it does in England, where betting shops are everywhere.
The experience I got was very worthwhile. I got to travel to interesting locations to setup the servers. Places like Curacao in the Caribbean, Malta, Ireland, the netherlands (we did work for the government casinos there, in fact), etc. I started out in a very jr position, but moved up extremely quickly because I was capable and they had a hard time finding good people who were willing to work for them. This gave me Sr-level quality within 2 years. I've since moved on, but I would do it again in a second. It's not been a black mark on me at all and people are usually curious about it. Because of complex legal and national regulations, the accountants also were in a similar position. They had a lot of trouble getting quality accountants, so they had to get more Jr. ones who moved up fast.
The executives had far more trouble after leaving, though they also ran the company rather poorly. In fact I'd say that the worst part was having to work with/for some people that I would consider less than high caliber. Because of this, I became the go-to guy to fix poor decisions made from incompetence at the CTO and director level.
Please explain, how is it trolling to point out that several British men (there have been others, e.g. Peter Dicks) were are/were involved in the online gambling industry - activities which are completely legal in the UK - have been arrested and prosecuted by US authorities? There is no legal guarantee that being based in the UK would make you immune to prosecution in the US, and now it seems that the British government are happy to extradite citizens to the US for actions that aren't actually a crime in the UK (e.g. Ian Norris of Morgan Crucible).
Having spent close to 10 years working in Gaming Systems (back end accounting, marketing & reporting systems, real time concurrent data collection for 4-5k+ nodes), I don't think there's really a stigma attached at least here in the us. I've never worked at casino property directly though, staying more with the companies that provide them software/hardware.
I've worked as an FTE and as a contractor for a couple of the larger international players in the space and I think overall it was good experience, casino marketing can be a moral issue for you as you're essentially trying to get people to give you their money praying on their hopes that they can get something for nothing, but that's how all gambling works.
I've since moved out of that industry, from there to direct marketing & data mining/warehousing from there into ecommerce focused, and now onto commercial services (printing, transaction management etc).
I saw a couple people point out travel, depending on what your specific role is and who you're working for you can pretty much end up anywhere. Just in North America, from Indian gaming, to Riverboat gaming & established "legalized gaming zones (ie. Vegas, AC etc) and state run (Winnipeg/Quebec/Sudbury) you could end up all over the continent, then internationally there's large markets in europe, asia, australia, even south africa.
I say go for it. You'll learn some things and collect a check, just like any other job.
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While different companies may look differently on resumes, gambling related jobs aren't really respected any more or less than any other profession. IGT is based in my town, and nobody cares as much about the name of the company as the experience there -- actually the software guys I know at IGT are well enough respected among their peers. Experience in IT is still experience in IT. Embedded programming is the same for a slot machine as it is for a kiosk or microwave oven (though with *much* more process and regulation).
You may run into biased recruiters who object to you working at a gaming company, but there are biases against damn near every industry out there (webmaster selling alcohol, system engineer building cigarette rolling machines, etcetc). All in all, it's better to get *some* experience in a potentially objectionable industry than none at all. If you're working with gaming machines you'll come out with good embedded systems knowledge. For a gaming website (or pretty much any IT related gaming job) you'll get a pretty decent security background (or so I imagine). Most important for any of these however is you'll get experience dealing with a regulated industry which will have its own processes and assorted red tape. This can be great if you move to other regulated industries down the road (banking, defense).
Nobody can say for certain that *any* job won't effect you later on. There are pitfalls in any industry, shady companies and fly by night operations are everywhere. Be smart and do some research into the company that is hiring you regardless of what they build. If it's not something you object to, you are probably OK. Most folks don't consider gambling something especially terrible.
+1 Disagree
I haven't worked in the gambling industry myself, but based on what I've read about its extreme computing requirements, I'd be very interested in seeing a resume from someone who had worked in it. The same goes for parts of the online porn industry for much the same reason. Both are very technically challenging environments and are often leaders in innovation. Their achievements aren't lauded as much as they might be if the subject matter wasn't so unseemly in the minds of many, but at the end of the day, data is data.
I'd recommend going for it. Even at its worst, it's nowhere near as disreputable as, let's say, being on the development team for MS Access.
Proud member of the Weirdo-American community.
This sounds like most jobs, in most industries. Face it, not that many jobs are really all that interesting. Software development makes a good career for me personally because it's a lot more fun than cleaning toilets or writing TPS reports and pays pretty well. But it's not that often I get to work on something really interesting to me, though I've definitely put a lot of work into maneuvering my career so I get to work with technologies I prefer and find interesting (i.e. Linux), even if the end application isn't all that interesting.
If I want to do something genuinely interesting, I do it on my own time at home, where I have the luxury of doing whatever I fancy (within reason and budget).
You are on the very edge of controversy with such a job. While people in Las Vegas might not think bad, try getting a job in Salt Lake City afterwards.
OK, suppose Playboy wanted to hire you? Would you go? Playboy being somewhat respected, how about Hustler? They all need IT gurus too. The fact is, they get them, and some of them stay in those industries forever. I also know VCs who will fund "pornographic" businesses, but they don't want as little public connection as possible. It's the whole image of an industry, that people will see in you and this is the issue. It's sorta like having a neck tattoo; only being associated with gambling maybe you can word your resume as far from fact as possible. (If I had a job at Playboy, I probably wouldn't say "Playboy" on my generic resume, but "Major Entertainment Company" and outline the technicalities of my job. At an interview, where they can read my personality and body expression, then I would mention Playboy, in hopes it doesn't sour my image. On the other hand, none of my work at Hustler would be on my generic resume, unless I was hoping to move to another adult entertainment company like Vivid or MetArt. You can get locked in quick.
Gambling is nowhere near as bad as adult entertainment. I personally wouldn't worry about it. The head IT guy at the Bellagio in Vegas is probably well respected by most he runs into; and he most certainly has that on his generic resume.
While a job at Playboy would have every male co-worker at your new job thinking you can get them inside the Playboy mansion. Having worked on code for slot machines would have every low-life gambler at your new job begging for information on some mysterious backdoor trick to rob Vegas with. This will probably be your biggest headache having such a job. Best not tell anyone.
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Honesty mode, and only speaking for me:
If you're clean cut, articulate and not at all slimy - then it will be a good thing to have gambling experience.
If you're even remotely suspicious looking, it will hinder you as it will give seemingly tangible evidence that you *may* by a risk. ..
That said, I did hire someone who worked at at offshore gabling site, and the stories were awesome. He came across as someone who I could trust - so that made the hire easy.
Moneyed corporations, non-working 'poor' and criminal prisoners are turning productive citizens into tax-slaves.
A lot of the British companies doing online gambling have British offices and employees but are actually incorporated in Costa Rica, Panama, Gibraltar, and various other countries with advantageous tax regimes and very little or no regulation. e.g. BetOnSports - Antigua / Costa Rica corporations with UK based holding company, Pokerstars - Costa Rica / Isle of Man; the Isle of Man company appeared after IoM enacted a streamlined deregulation of online gambling which explicitly states it's legal to offer such services to the US at about the same time they introduced 0% corporation tax, quite a fewer companies are now based there, also here's a list for Gibraltar, some big names there include Ladbrokes which is one of the UK's largest gambling operations, and PartyGaming which is one of the largest online poker providers in the world.
As long as they are successful and know how to write quality software it is absolutely not a black mark. There is nothing wrong with internet gambling. If you're interested in a career working with large networked applications then gambling is a great place to be.
Well with the CDO amd other 'Financial Engineering' what is the difference
A Group you probably don't want to work for anyhow; The holier than thou's. However, working for ASIG, Citigroup. or Enron, now there's a black mark a LARGE group of us turn our noses up at.
(If at first you don't succeed, do it different next time!)
Your mom gave me an awesome blowjob. It was anything but boring, but I could do without the shit.
Let me give you some first hand experience about the gray market transition.
Find a company name that is legitimately associated with the company you are working with, yet doesn't scream "GAMBLING". Use that name for any out-of-industry contacts you have. For example, if you work for offshore_gambling.com, but your company does have web_host_and_dev.com, associate yourself with that. Use the email. Put that on your resume. When you step away from the industry, never reference the gray market industry.
Most future employers don't even bother contact old employers. For the exceptions, it is very useful to ensure that there is (and will be) provisions where someone can verify your employment.
I just lost out on probably the best job possibility that I've ever been presented with. As part of that job, it required a very in depth background check (yes, the most in depth background check possible). I didn't get the job because two employers were unavailable to verify my employment history.
One was a perfectly legitimate mainstream company, who failed to verify anything. The investigator failed to find the business (strike 1).
The second was an gray market (adult) company. Unfortunately, due to the company shutting down operations, none of the old offices were available to verify my employment, and my best guess for a verifier failed. ("sorry, never heard of that company").
Mainstream or gray market doesn't matter. It's a matter of the verifiability of your employment, should the need arise later.
Unfortunately for me, I had told anyone that worked under me that I could be contacted directly to verify their employment. They were given honest reviews, simply avoiding the gray market part of the answers. Since I was the person now being verified, there was no one left to give the honest yet politically correct sanitized review.
So, it doesn't matter if you're working in a mainstream industry, or a gray market industry, you can always get bitten by a failure to verify in your future.
Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
This is entirely untrue. Living in a state where gambling is legal in the US, I've worked with many, MANY developers who have come out of companies who supply casinos with the software for their systems. If you can code, and you have the proficiency of, say, a wet piece of bark, yeah, you'll probably not get hired. However, if you come out of working in the gaming industry (or, "the industry" as we call it in NV) with a gleaming resume, the fact that you can say that you've developed successful systems that are currently live in casino "X" will absolutely shine.
Clones are people two!
I have lived in Las Vegas and become good friends with people in various IT positions in the gambling industry. These people hold jobs ranging from IT infrastructure and security, to developing computerized games, to enforcement and regulation with the Nevada Gaming Commission. I have also lived and worked in Washington DC as an IT contractor, for the government and defense agencies, and have quite a few friends there. At the risk of starting an East Coast / West Coast debate: if anything, the people working in the gaming industry are smarter, sharper, and more attuned to potential problems with a technology package than their DC counterparts. They are less willing to accept defects in a product, more interested in understanding testing procedures and making sure they make sense, and possess a kind of intensity around getting the most out of whatever platform they are working on. For example, I know a few people who design video slot machines for Bally's. The hardware for video slots machines is tightly regulated, consisting of a set of components that is probably less powerful than what you have in your mobile phone. All of the software they write is in C, not C++ or C sharp, it is in C. They write their software so that it can be tested and get every bit of performance out of those machines they possibly can. They understand regulations for how to develop games and work within those strictures without complaining. When there is a change, they are implementing them the first day they possibly can. There is an impossible level of efficiency with these guys and I would hire any of them in a heartbeat. M
Vegas is no where close to the worst place in the US (granting it sucks big wet donkey balls).
Spend some time in Decatur, IL or Birmingham, AL. Then we can talk.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
You've just described about 90% of all jobs.
The advice still applies - that other 10% does exist.
sic transit gloria mundi
... but it doesn't sound to me like this is something that would be a "black mark".
While there are plenty of people out there who find gambling distasteful, working for a software engineernig firm that sells software the gambling industry doesn't seem like it would be worth of causing taint.
BTW, my recollection is that the many of the online gambling companies split up development and operations into separate legal entities (i.e. you might work for a SE firm that sells to the gambling industry, but the reality could be that you only have 1 client or that all clients are owned by the same person).
Assuming that that is true, I doubt most people are even aware of it.
Evolution: love it or leave it
Perhaps you should avoid volunteering for Gammy's Bingo night, too.
---------
Launch all sig
You shouldn't have a problem getting another job outside the gambling industry. However, even if you did, the gambling industry is HUGE. From the experience you get at this job, your knowledge of the industry will make you attractive to future employers.
Also, if you don't have a problem working in the gambling industry, you probably don't want to work for any future employer who does.
So instead of putting YOUR balls on the line, you want to get us to take the blame when you fail. I would guess that the very act of posting this on slashdot disqualifies you from the position, or at least from the intelligent employers short list. You are worried about gambling your future by working for a gambling company. Think about it.
you could be working for a bank !
Joke aside, I don't think it would hurt you any. I've been part of the hiring process at one of my ex-employers, and we definitely didn't care where the experience was coming from, as long as it was there.
Furthermore, if a future prospective employer is idiot/bigoted enough to blacklist people who once worked in the gaming industry, regardless of what they did there... will you really want to work for them anyway ?
On the other hand, don't get suckered by the flashing lights and bling-bling sounds ... is the actual job any good ?
The Cloud - because you don't care if your apps and data are up in the air.
It's software, like any other software. Gaming machines have many appendages; bill collectors, card readers, button panels, touchscreen, various media, battery monitors, host system (back-end) communication, networking, etc. They're big animals. There are existing standards bodies and laboratories that will vet your work according to various specifications.
I suppose the sales and marketing side might be shady on occasion but you're not going to see that because you don't know jack about gaming so no one from the front office will want to talk to you. Gaming has it's own vernacular and noobs are only interesting when they're playing.
It's a growth industry. Easier for states to take a cut of gaming money than crank up taxes.
Name the company, and I'll see if I can get a job there. Then, after I get a job there, after a while, I will then start to look for another job while still working at this place. After the results are in, I can then submit my findings to here at /..
Sadly w/ some HR people anything can be seen as a black mark. Even things you can't change like your name. Something like gambling probably has a higher rate of hitting people's radar due to it's "shady reputation", but you also have to think about yourself. Would you want to work for a company that wouldn't hire an incompetent worker over one that had worked for a gambling software company?
You've just described about 90% of all jobs.
Or 100% of all jobs that provide stable income.
Naw... don't get out now.. get some money in the bank, and work on building a new business that will be within that 10%.... It's much better to own more interesting industry than to work a job in the industry :)
The only thing that can be said for the other 10%, is that they're not all three.
At least in all of Europe. You already know it, when you find out, that all of them are on some small island with specific tax rules. They are very close to the whole fraud industry.
Here in Germany, they were caught more than once, fixing all bets. Even on huge events like soccer & co.
I think of it as the legal arm of the criminals. And if you are in contact with them, soon you end up doing other things where you have to bend your moral values to the breaking point.
I bet if you dig, you can put half of them straight to jail.
I know this, because I worked with them. And I would keep as far away from them, as you'd do with the mafia.
Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
What about working on pornography web sites? Is that a black mark?
Consider: You probably don't want to work at any future company that would refuse to hire you for that reason. If you see what I mean.
"... and more and more now there are all kinds of electronic goodies available" -- Pink Floyd 1972
. . . is not delivering quality software on time and within budget. When I'm hiring, I could give a damn about your coding for a gambling site. Coding for a _sucky_ gambling site would be a problem.
I wouldn't want to work for a company who saw that as a black mark. Are you friends nut bag rightwing religious fundamentalists?
But you won't know whether it's red or black until the roulette wheel stops.
Could just as easily be a red mark. Can't know until you know.
Unless you're cheating with hidden magnets, or have a crystal ball, that is..
I knew a co-worker who programmed lotto machines. He later joined a major stock exchange. Last I heard, he was happily coding for a hedge fund. What all the employers were keen on were his Linux skills -- which were pretty sharp. Maybe working in the gambling industry didn't hurt him because gambling and "investing" are not too different. :)
I wouldn't let the "industry taboo" change your decision.
I certainly wouldn't hold that against hiring you
(my path has been tech, CTO, to CEO).
The real issue is whether you'll get to complete interesting projects ... and, of course,
to put on your resume (as someone else pointed out)
whether you know your sh^t.
The one issue you might think about is the domain-specific ... so you'll get more
knowledge you get. While a good developer (with appropriate
other work skills) can change domains, virtually any job you take
will start to pigeon hole you. For your next job, you'll look more
attractive if you stay in the same industry
offers, perhaps better/higher offers, and there will be numerous
factors that make it advantageous (to both you and employer)
to stay in the industry. Rinse, lather, repeat.
Best of luck,
steve
(Posting anon for obvious reasons...) I spent the past 5 years in the video slot business, working in North America, Russia, South America and Mexico. The quality of engineering I saw was mostly bad (worst in the USA, where security needs really aren't that high compared to other markets, and regulations are routinely flouted). The technical management was as incompetent as you'd expect in any software sector.
But the key thing to remember: At the management level, you are going to rub shoulders with extremely dishonest people. The companies I worked with were riddled with embezzlers and liars. Their scams were often intercontinental and ran to 7 figure thefts (some people I was aware of had stolen 8 figure sums over time). Big money attracts these sort of people like shit attracts flies. Trust your instincts and don't do anything stupid, risky, or with even a hint of double dealing. You won't necessarily be able to figure out who to trust, which can lead to nasty surprises or worse. (It's only a "safe place" if you're very careful and/or lucky.)
At best it might be a thrilling adventure, and you'll have some stories at the end of it, but you'll also have scars, and you'll lose friends (even honest ones), might end up on the wrong end of a lawsuit brought by guys who love lawyers and have unlimited amounts to spend on them. Or, you could end up assaulted or dead (one man I knew was fond of making quite genuine threats to the life and limb of his programming team, to coerce them to go along with his dishonest schemes).
If there is one thing I have learned: Criminals have little use for honest people. They neither understand nor tolerate them.
As someone who lives in Las Vegas and spent the obligatory tour of duty in a casino upon moving here, the only problem might be that a casino generally will only acknowledge your employment and dates of employment. Other than that, you need to collect letters of commendation and recommendation and keep your personal files and you'll be just fine. Although I will say that the stress level is less and life is more enjoyable and healthy out of the gaming industry. Less smoke now that I'm working for UNLV and better hours overall.
Take it. Wondering if a completely legal industry is a "black mark" in some future hiring manager's book is far too much navel gazing. You have to be pragmatic, hire on with this company, and take the opportunity as far as you can.
Why do you think the tech industry holds comdex, defcon, and other IT shows in Las Vegas?
On the other hand after living in Vegas for many years, I can tell you that the gambling industry does not really think much of IT people as customers. In Las Vegas the guys that go to comdex (defcon) have a bad rep among the casinos. It seems IT people are flush with cash, cheap, and not willing to gamble much because they know the frigen systems are rigged against them. The biggest strike they have against them is they do not tip well.
You would likely have less of black mark on your carrier than if you where a waitress in Vegas and then tried to get job in some other part of the U.S.
Living in Chile
hideous security as in the backroom beat down?
You should be fine as long as the next company you apply to doesn't have a god addict in the HR department. If that's the case, the company's probably doomed anyway, and you're better off not working there.
I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
It's called saving up a few dozen thousand, putting money in when you're doing well and taking money out when you're doing badly. Watch how your income stabilizes if you do that.
I work for the the gambling industry. Its excellent work, fun and you'll learn a lot fast. It may have a bad sound to it, but in the area I live (Upstate NY, USA), it doesn't affect my chance at a job at all. Most gaming machines run some form of Unix or Linux, and the companies that make them really put out some top notch products. Bally's, IGT, Spielo (GTECH) -- to name a few -- make some really solid machines.
You'll quickly learn to hate bill validators and card readers, but it shouldn't tarnish your reputation at all.
I can't conceive of why working in the gambling industry would be a mark against you. It wouldn't make sense. You're either good at writing software or you aren't, it really doesn't matter what industry. The only possible downside is that it's not a large industry, so you probably can't make a lifetime out of working in the same industry. But so what? So far, in the last 17 years, I've worked in the medical equipment field (EEG monitors, blood pressure monitors), industrial non-medical ultrasound (one project in the fish farming industry, one in the lumber industry), the petroleum retail industry (credit card interfaces for gas stations), the cable TV industry (software for video on demand systems), the video test equipment industry (windows device drivers for custom cards) and then back to petroleum retail.
No one who wants to hire good software people is going to care. No one.
A thousand pounds of wood moving at 300 feet per minute. Don't get in the way.
Which one sounds better: "I work for insurance company." or... "I work in gambling business.", so go for it. :P
I spent the first twelve years of my career working in both the Class II and Class III gaming industries, we don't call it gambling. :)
I'm primarily a systems administrator and recently decided to find a job outside of the gaming industry. I had expected to find that employers may be concerned about my past employment. On the contrary, most of the employers I interviewed with seemed to be curious about the industry and many of them thought that my experiences from that industry could be an asset.
The gaming biz is very fast paced, requires real-time systems, requires massive networks, requires high-speed communication, requires complex databases, extensive code-review, requires extensive documentation and may requires extensive background investigations (for certain positions). There's a lot to learn in the business and it's a great place to cut your teeth, it's also very broad regarding the types of development that're needed and you could find just about any type of development position you'd want.
Just like any industry, there are both good and bad things about the gaming biz but I've enjoyed my time in the business and may go back to it someday and I'd definitely recommend it to others.
Also, I know few developers in Vancouver that were in the biz for a couple of years and they had no trouble with transitions to other industries.
-tharant
There are lots of neat IT things you can do in the gaming industry.... all sorts of cool applications of CEP, stats and so forth, all of which have great applications in the gaming industry and elsewhere. If gaming doesn't fit your longer term tastes, there are plenty of applications for the skills you'll learn in finance.
u can't get into the job
so just send it
and wait for the reject
it would be better than no experience at all.
From what I've heard from the nuke guys, the nuclear weapons industry is full of the highly religious. They feel that their religion makes them more careful and conscientious about their work, and I'd agree.
If you believe in that stuff, all of us are doing god's work (whether the g is upper or lower case), and that the extra precision and code tightness that you'd learn in the gambling industry would benefit everyone.
It's you, not the religious, that has the problem. I'm not very religious myself, but they are for the most part better developers than the non-religious in many ways. They definitely are more open-minded.
--edfardos
Here in New Zealand it would only be a problem for a small number of bigots but for the most part is likely to be positive. In my case it has clearly been a good thing. When I worked for the TAB (horse racing) it required high quality audited code, which looks good on a CV. When I worked for a casino I had be police interview and certified as a reputable citizen which is also good on a CV, and I always thought I was certifiable ;-)
High paying industries are very difficult to quit, no matter if your a saver or a spender. IE a smart saver will not keep cash (especially@0.5% rates we have now) So either you make good investments and don't want to pull money out, or not good ones and you don't feel you have the money to take a cut. Spenders are addicted to new good stuff, and their is always more you will want.
Also high paying industries are usually specialized, so try not to stay too long. IE anything more than 5 years experience in any development/programming technology is not adding much value. IE if a developer is desired for a web application for a Real estate site, and a choice is given between a developer with 15 years web experience at a gambling site, or a developer with 2 years of web development in reality, likely the 2 years wins, especially if at a lower salary requirement. I have found myself in a higher paying industry, it pays higher initially but you seam to hit a ceiling sooner than a more competitive industry. Thats (IMHO) because their are only 2 high paying companies in my instance, so I did bid up my salary with job changes but now I have gone from the one, to the other big player (started at a lower company). With 16 years, I am now likely too specialized to get a pay raise outside this industry as a developer, and their HR wont allow me to go back as such to my past employers. Now the only way up is to give up on doing something for a living, and go into management. Or take a initial cut to start over in a bigger pond.
Submitter asks (paraphrased) "I'm currently in the UK been offered a job in the gambling industry and thinking about going to work in US in the future. Any potential problems?"
Pointing out that several British men involved in the gambling industry have been arrested, some extradited, and prosecuted in the US is Trolling and Offtopic?! How does that work? If the article submitter is serious about wanting to emigrate to the US in the future, then entering an industry where many, if not most, British and offshore companies violate US law on an ongoing basis, and which the US government has already made moves against, is probably something that should be considered.
Mod parent up.
If you work for a regulated gambling operation in the developed world, you'll probably have to undergo a background check. That's a plus. On the other hand, working for some "offshore online casino" is iffy, and may even result in painful interviews with law enforcement and tax authorities.
One of the interesting aspects of gambling software is that many of the companies that provide services are held financially responsible for both errors and downtime. It's not like the rest of the on-line world, where everything is the customer's fault. If you want to see high-reliability systems, check out the data center behind one of the big state Lotto operations.
I work in the gaming industry for the last 8 years currently as a programmer, just like you at a place where gambling operations are legal. Before working as a programmer I worked as a sysadmin and for a year as a manager (with technical duties too). I have a formal college degree and I pay taxes and report my income. So does the company where I have a full time consultant (oxymoron??) deal.
What I see this far is that there are good and bad guys in the industry. While I consider casinos a total scam (even the honest ones) sports betting operations are usually a lot better. Also credit vs post-up operations differ a lot from each other post up ones being more problematic (charge backs, books does not want to pay, legal problems with US gamblers, etc).
About the US concern: our company does not accept US bettors' money, is completely legal here and so writing programs (or maintaining them) is not illegal by any standards. I see more contacts and work in the industry than at any other workplace this far. Everyone knows everyone and if you are willing to do and can take a little stress here and there you will have people wanting to hire you left and right. Mostly from the gaming industry though.
There is a movie with a quote "Where there is gambling there are criminals", and take this as an advice. There are people in the industry I do not want to talk to, do not want to be seen with, do not want to know and feel extremely uncomfortable around. Not necessarily criminals, but people whose behavior is not compatible with my standards, but then again I saw upper management at the largest computer manufacturer's IT/Middleware division who did not behave much better than that.
So... my bet (pun intended) is that you have to look at the environment and the people you will have to work with/for and make a decision. Also find out about what sites/services they run and google the hell out of it. If you see that there are payout complaints and similar issues; RUN.
I once worked at a place where it became evident that they were ripping people off, I quit after the next paycheck.
Oh, consider that at gaming operations you might have to deal with extreme paranoia if you are anywhere near their data (financial or player info). You do not want to steal and email out their player list or do something similarly stupid. Be clear about not wanting to see any data or make sure you follow protocol near data. If you are tempted to "prove that their security sucks" either make sure they know your are about to demonstrate something or do not do it. Trust me on that one.....
Soooo.. this is my 5c of advice, just use common sense and if you see something wrong just pack your stuff and go somewhere else.
Cheers
And he's still right.
I worked in the gambling industry, and lots of people did recognise the "curse" of working in the industry. It can make it harder to move back into other fields.
However, this is not simply because it's gambling (hence, immoral, bad, etc...) -- it's because the gambling industry is renowned for lagging behind best practice in software engineering by 1-2 decades...
I had to work pretty hard to prove my skills were up to date after leaving, and had to take a 30% pay-cut and drop a rung of seniority to get out...
Same goes for artists - gambling artists are stereotyped as being stuck in the one style, having no flexibility. They can find it hard to move on as well...
I am the development coordinator for one of the world's leading wagering software development companies. :-)
Having a background in industrial automation and other real time software systems, I can tell you that writing software for gaming (especially when it involves racing) is easily of the same order of writing sharemarket trading software. As its essentially what it is - a great big real time bank. Most of the things you would like to do as batch can't be done, as it can be with a bank, as balances and histories need to be available straight away.
Most of the guys that work for me have masters degrees (I have the full set) and all need a broad experience in a variety of areas to be even able to work here. Every thing you do touches on performance, scalability and reliability.
If you worry about the morality of it you're probably wound too tight to be working anywhere. And how many of these hiring companies, especially in america, see military service as a moral plus? If the job interests you do it. If it doesn't don't. And if you're any good and want to work in Australia - send me your resume
Cheers, Brad
PS. The one thing I have found doing this, having a PhD, is I understand how the guys working on things like the Manhattan project must have felt. Not commenting on the morality or anything of it, but just how little you think of what it is you are actually doing. For example, rarely do you think of it as being horse racing - all you're concentrating on is getting the right prices in the right columns etc. You just don't think too much about the bigger picture. Just something I found interesting.
1. gambling
2. liquor
3. movies
generates income for government. (read that in a story, anyone remember that story)
No one really cares,
If you are working for a legit business and doing quality work that is all that people care about. There are always some personality types that are going to take offence.
Gambling Job pisses people off with strong opinions on morality.
Miltary job pisses off peace lovers.
Government job brands you as lazy and un-coroperative.
Tax Office job pisses of your mother and everyone else.
Transit employee brands you as a unionist and lazy
Tobaco brands you as a selfish evil abuser.
etc.
There is always something.
Guess what. Do good work. Have something to show for your time. And you will not have issues with future employment.
I worked in the gaming industry for two years and found that feeling partially responsible for completely fucking people over and selling false hope and abusing peoples addictive personalities left me feeling like a true piece of shit. There are great opportunities to to learn and grow in this industry, but if you want your life's work to be more than the abuse of human nature for profit then go somewhere else- thats what I did, and it was my best career move yet.
I would be more inclined to LIKE the fact you've had experience working in the gaming industry - the metrics and security around the gaming industry gives developers (in many cases, certainly not all) a lot of insight that they would definitely not get from many other industries.
I wouldn't have a bias per-se. I'd assume that you'd be able to prove that your time there increased your abilities in statistical analysis, understanding human traits (and how they affect statistics) and pseudo random number generation.
In fact, if you failed to 'wow' me on those three points, then your time at a gambling location was seriously wasted because they're all good topics to be getting your teeth into.
If you could prove yourself in those areas, you'd obviously have no problem doing any other job IMHO.
I've worked as a contractor to a company that was involved in gaming and wagering and in no way did it affect what I did after that. Quite the opposite. It was an eye opening experience into how government regulation meets IT.
Consider, for a moment, problems such as auditing and being able to prove that you're complying with the various regulations. Never mind developing an application to support the thing with shining buttons, there's a whole host of other issues too. It's also 24x7x365 and costs money whenever there is down time.
The worst problem I have with carrying such experience is with the attitude to testing in that industry vs elsewhere. I've seen rooms of machines wired up in an automatic mode, so that long term behaviour is well understood and within the required regulations.
And as someone else said, once you've worked "behind the scenes" in this industry, you'll never play again because you'll have a good understanding that it's not really your "luck" from a "random" event resulting in a win, but rather being the lucky one to be in the right place at the right time when the controlling computer decides it is time for a jackpot.
At least in the US, nobody cares. I would find it difficult to believe it could produce any kind of a black mark. The only thing that matters is your experience. Just do what you want to do.
It's software. How is writing code for banks any less boring? Or for pharmaceutical companies? Or for
I don't see why the gambling industry would be a problem. Working for malware/spyware/spam distributors or other gray areas is. I'd probably include porn industry as well because most of those sites serve malware as well. Working for the games industry looks great.
Search for "gambling addiction" to see tons of stuff out there explaining what gambling means for weak people and their families.
If you are a good programmer you can be good at anything and you will surely become something important in your life whatever you do. But do you really want to get involved in the gambling industry?
The gambling industry can be even more rigorous than the banking industry or stock exchanges.
Many casinos run 24 hours year round. Most stock exchanges and banks don't.
And I think casinos don't reward employee mistakes as well as the "conventional finance" sector ;).
They might even be regulated better...
One person can make a difference. What difference in the world you will be making while working on a gambling company?
What will be your contribution to a human cause?
Imagine you are to die in a year or two (it may happen with everyone). What people will say about you? This? "He helped a gambling scam to cheat people big time of their money with his excellent scripts."
Spaghetti and Fed Balls, followed by a swim at Hoover Dam. How long can you hold your breath?
Imagine you are to die in a year or two (it may happen with everyone). What people will say about you? Will you be around to hear it or care?
Why everybody gotta take everything so serious, yo. He could make a difference for himself and maybe his family in the world while working with a gambling company and die grinning. Causes won't mean much when you're dead. The human race has an unjustified sense of self-importance.
Many people in HR positions are still actually religious. Many people in policy positions are also religious. There are many religions that look at gambling or contributing to gambling as being a sin.
While they won't pro-actively think "Hmm... he's been involved in gambling and therefore he's a bastard from the deepest pits of hell", instead it will make at least a subconscious impact on them to see you as an immoral person.
I would recommend that you avoid the position if possible. I've had friends that have struggled finding work after having been employed by gambling companies that started off legitimate enough, but through changes of management and misappropriation of company resources ended badly.
How many of those people are the "slow players?" There are a few high rollers in any given casino and the fact they are treated well is simple logic - but those high rollers can also win and the house has to cover it. How do they cover it? On all those "slow players."
Why do you think casinos have player's clubs? There's not a casino around that doesn't offer perks of some sort and there are scads of people who exchange info on these perks and use that info in selecting their next vacation destination. Retirees sometimes count in that lot but as often as not don't.
Those "slow gamblers" are the bread and butter. They're the people willing to write off 50 or 100 bucks as "entertainment expenses" and will leave happy and return first chance they get so long as they have a full belly from a cheap dinner, or a nice buzz from the cheap booze, or just a good attitude brought on by the hours of fun and the good floor show they watched while they played.
People become addicted to gambling and lose sight of reality. This is no different than any other addiction. You can't make other people's weakness your problem or you'll never work again - I can't work in food services cuz fat people will get fatter; I can't work in medicine because people use hospitals to seek drugs and avoid work; I can't work in the engineering sector because someone might use my project for stealing data or swapping kiddy porn or whatever.
Gambling is entertainment. I know dozens of people who love to gamble and venture from time to time to the casinos. Not one of them leaves for the casino expecting anything but a full belly and a good time. It's not a problem for a single one of them - save for most are too poor due to the aftereffects of king george's collapsed economy to play as often as they'd like.
Yes, your instincts are correct. Gambling sites are seedy and gambling experience will make most grimace. Not just on moral grounds but it also suggests that you were desperate enough to take a job in this industry at some point. And desperation on resume = bin. That said we’re in deep recession. If you’re really stuck take it, keep looking for something better and leave it off your Resume. But *really* make it short term and avoid normalizing to it like the plague as you risk getting stuck in the industry due to reduced options.
... Is this company that makes online gambling software for use around the globe. Everyone from college wanted to get a programming job from them(straight out of college, haha noone did. I got a job quickly by sending my CV around to other companies while everyone was pining for their dream job). It was considered the best place to work in durban for IT. Anyways, I did have a friend who worked there, and he said it was great for his CV when he moved to JHB, and a nice environment, good pay, etc etc.
I guess you either get in with a company that wants to take money unscrupulously, or a company that makes gambling games for people to enjoy, and profits like that. If you go for it, I hope it's the latter.
Lots of people gamble as a pastime, in a way akin to going to the cinema. for the small adrenaline rush you get by doing something out of the mundane where you could actually win a bit of money if you are lucky.
Most people that gamble know that they will lose and the house will win, but the element of uncertainty is enough to make it a pleasurable pursuit.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Somewhere like betfair, I would view positively. They're effectively a stock-exchange for sports.
Some of these flash-based games that encourage poor people to gamble their benefits? I'd personally find it hard to work for them, but wouldn't use it as a black mark in hiring decisions.
I spent the same amount in one day at the horse races.
You talk to lots of interest people, including very fetching chicks, look at all the ceremonial of the races, the beauty of the horses, and then to top it all, you can risk a couple of bob to make matters more interesting while watching the races, and spectacle on it sown right.
Only a nerd would chose to sit alone playing a game in preference to such a rich and interesting afternoon.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
If you have a compulsive personality gambling is just one of many avenues to exacerbate your problem.
Many people just take a bit of money lose it, and once in a while win a bit more, and go home once they are done, happy with the adrenalin rush provided by the small probability of winning something.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
You see, the problem of many people deriding gambling is that they have no idea of the numbers involved.
You can happily spend only $10 or $20 and have a couple of enjoyable hours, or more if you are lucky.
If you are so afraid of yourself then take only the amount of money you can lose and leave you credit card at home.
The adults amongst us are rational enough to set a limit and go home once we reach it. We can also drink only a glass of wine a night and have stopped smoking. In other worlds we have self control. You should try it some time.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Honestly, which modern western person thinks that Playboy is objectionable?
It has been legitimized for ages, and can be argued it is a cultural icon.
Hard Core porn would be a different matter, and still, most people in civilized places (Europe, Japan) would not bat an eyelid, perhaps would find it an amusing career choice.
If I was reviewing your application, and you had worked in the gambling industry, my thought process would be along the lines of:
So, all in all, you would be a win.
Of course you will also get people who see "but gambling is evil and therefore so are they". You'll also get the same reaction from other people if they see you've worked in any number of other industries, like pharma or petro-chem. Right about now there are probably people who consider anything to do with finance to be equal to living in sin with Satan.
If you spend all your time worrying about how other people will view your previous employers you'll never take any job. If you're OK with working for them, then go for it. Personally I'd love to work for VideoBox, because their content delivery network has to be fucking awesome.
Yeah, I had a sig once; I got bored of it.
When inflation is considered, gold has not kept its value. You would be better off having put your money in a savings account at 3% pa 30 years ago.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
As you're in the UK, I would say that more than likely it is not a negative to work in the gambling industry. However, in some parts of the US, gambling is highly stigmatized and considered a sin. This is especially true in the bible belt (a large chunk of the southeast US) and other more religiously conservative areas of the country. I still remember 20+ years ago in my home state (in the southern US) when they first brought in the state lottery and horse racing, it was not pretty.
Are you kidding? Jump at the chance to work for one of the big boys: Ladbrokes, Will Hill, Stan James, Bet365, Paddy Power... the list of players goes on and on.
There is no stigma. Everyone likes a gamble. Most of us are not addicted to it and only place 50p bets.
I'd love to work for one of them. The maths alone fascinates me.
The worse of them all is the government sponsored lottery. Stay away, stay away.
This post contains benzene, nitrosamines, formaldehyde and hydrogen cyanide.
I can't really think of any work that someone could have done that would stop me from hiring them - certainly not gambling sites, which I would expect to be entirely above board and close to the cutting edge in terms of experience. I wouldn't be put off by someone who had experience in the adult industry... that would make me a hypocrit as my wife worked as a sub-editor for Club magazine for 5 years. It didn't hurt her prospects either - she told me that when she interviewed for her current job (now subbing for a telecomms magazine), the interviewer very seriously looked over her previous work, the Christmas Pussy episode of Club International.
I guess the thing that would be closest to a black mark would be any kind of enterprise that obviously failed - someone who had worked at Boo.com would have to answer some hard questions (e.g. what were you thinking?), but even then I still wouldn't blame the developers for the ethical / commercial decisions that the bosses had taken.
Differentiate between a "smart saver" and someone ensuring they have a few months salary available in liquid form.
Frankly the first 3 months gross salary I have in savings can earn as little as it likes as long as I can access it relatively risk free as cash within a month.
It gives me financial security, peace of mind and the ability to tell my employer to go fuck himself if he ever steps out of line. That's worth far more to me than an extra 4-5% return on investment.
It's quite like a lot of events in the Human life time:
1. If you take a chance at things turning out well, you may succeed or lose, and people will like and dislike you, depending on their tendencies.
2. If you don't take a chance, you may be missing out on a possibly great opportunity, or may have avoided a bad opportunity. Either way, you will feel "this way or that" about the outcome. Depends on what you find out about it later and/or how much you think about it.
Conclusion:
If you listen to your brain when the right hemisphere interacts with the left and gives you that "warning" indicator, there is a reason, based on your knowledge and life experience. If you go after something that you feel may be of a threat to you, then you will always be worried that there is a possible negative outcome on the horizon, regardless of the current conditions. Opposed to that concept, if you "go with your gut instinct" and don't take the opportunity, you will also be concerned that you missed something that may have been the best career choice in life.
The best choice (IMHO and based on my near-death) is to live life and ignore the "what ifs." Go with your gut instincts and spend time, but not too much time, solving analytical issues that may provide you with better answers as your life matures.
Something's nagging you right now to be concerned about this being a possible threat. That means (again, IMHO) that this one isn't for you. Keep looking, but don't stop learning. It may change in the future, or may not.
Wow, the whole concept in and of itself is a gamble. You know what I mean :)
I have worked in the Gambling industry for about 3.5 years now (I'm 30 - got out of uni in 2001) and if nothing else I've found that it's helped my career. I'm getting job offers from a wide range of different industries (investment banks, indie software houses, startups, big name search engines etc). Obviously personal mileage may vary and it depends on who you work for (my current company is a big named betting exchange), but I certainly can't see any 'black mark' being applied to you because of it. Just make sure the company you work for is legal and above board or the whole USA thing may be an issue.
You may work in the gambling industry, but you write down Broad-spectre Public Risk Management on your resume, dummy.
A friend of mine worked as a programmer for a company that sells gambling machines with clients in Peru and Austria AFAIK. A few months ago he resigned and went to a non-gambling related company (for a better salary) without problems.
Show me a moral industry and I'll show you one that isn't pursuing capitalistic virtues.
I'm a software developer for a company that supplies software for the betting industry. It is far and away the best job I've ever had.
I get to work with fascinating technologies (ATL / WTL / C++ / DirectShow / DirectX ) and it's _great_ experience if I ever decide I want to move on elsewhere.
I would estimate that a very large proportion of IT graduates in the UK end up in .NET jobs, writing (boring) websites.
I have also worked for a really _big_ "moral" multi-national. I won't mention who, but they claim they invented the CPU. That job was on the other hand, the least interesting job I ever had. It was all VB/SQL/ASP and you weren't allowed to use techologies that weren't "approved" by the powers that be, the idea being that its cheaper to replace programmers if they all write in VB.
My experience of coding in the UK has led me to conclude - go for the startups as they have the best pay, the best technologies and the best people to work with. And forget about your morals, you're a capitalist.
I never worked for a company involved for gambling, but my father did. After many years working for a company that did security related work for slot machines, my father then moved to Intel. Largely to reduce time spent traveling IIRC. There should be no reason to be concerned. As mentioned elsewhere, the gambling industry has a high customer standard for security so it's more like a positive point to have experience there.
#-#
Ad Astra Per Aspera
A rough road leads to the stars
I'm late on the thread but I worked for 7 years in the gaming industry. I now work for a U.S. Federal Agency and was sought by them because of the skills I learned at that job.
Im in the industry myself and make 3D games for the one and only 3D (opengl) casino on the interwebs.
Its more fun then making regular games in that way your customers are adults and not a bunch of nagging kiddies and you get to interact with them on a 'normal' basis.
PS W're hiring too!!! :p
Will we ever stop getting our moral cues from the Victorian era?
After my schooling my first job was programming full time for a Lottery. I was there many years and has not caused me any problems, in fact, it is a good niche.
Since then, I have done contracts in other fields, and no one has EVER mentioned "gambling".
People tend to develop areas that they work in(due to specialized market skills), and I work now tend to work in Lotteries, Bank Trading systems and Mortgages. (all rather similar) So you don't have to worry that you will be locked in the Gaming/Lottery field.
Yes, work experience in the gambling industry is a big turn off. For potential job candidates, my turn ons are puppy dogs, sunsets, and long walks on the beach.
At HP, I would repair the equipment folks would be writing to the firmware and software to gambling machines in Rhode Island. This was in a corporate park far away from any casinos. They wore the usual work office apparel and unless I looked at the equipment of asked them what they were doing, I would NEVER be able to tell that they were working on slots. Small teams, good camaraderie, good working environment, and no impossible deadlines. Hell, just tell the next recruiter that you were working on random number generators!
Here here. For most of my life I've kept at least enough cash on hand to pay my mortgage and household bills for 6 months. Recently, my wife and I bought a house and had to tap into this reserve to make our down payment.
Now I would like to tell my employer to go fuck himself, and for the first time in years I have to wait until I line up the next gig before I do it.
... the company you'd be keeping.
I think that, generally, the ethos in a firm is passed down by its founders. Witness, for instance, the large accountancy firms (came to the fore via their 19th century predations.)
Give them a miss, I vote.
As a number of others have pointed out you'll probably learn a lot about high security applications and I don't think there's any sort of black mark associated with such employment going forward. However if you enjoy gambling in Vegas you might want to consider that the gaming regulators take a very dim view of people associated with the technical side of the industry showing up in casinos While I lived in Silicon Valley I took courses at local colleges and universities. Two of my instructors mentioned they weren't allowed to go to Vegas casinos because they had been employed by a gaming machine manufacturer and the Nevada gaming regulators ( decades before ) respectively.
I know plenty of ex-coworkers who transitioned from writing software for the gaming industry into other industries. It has never been a black mark that I have been able to detect.
... at least compared to something really questionable, like banking.
If you want to be entertained for a couple of hours, I suppose playing the slots in Vegas is about as cheap as, say, renting a movie, and a hell of a lot cheaper than seeing a show.
Of course, watching other people gamble and checking out the casinos is even more entertaining and generally costs nothing. But gambling with real money doesn't appeal to me. I guess I was too good at math. :)
"This post contains words, known to the State of California to cause thought. Wash brain thoroughly after reading."
I've done it. I wrote a bunch of books on horse racing (and still sell selections). After that, I was offered (and accepted) a position at a top consumer information provider (one of the three companies that provide your credit reports).
The gambling past I had was a HUGE positive. My books were how they found me, and many people asked about my experiences in the gambling world. From a career point of view, getting involved in the gambling industry was nothing but a positive, wound up making me much more popular and well known in the little division where I worked, and landed me a higher paying job than I otherwise would have had.
Yeah, but the line for those jobs is tens of thousands of applicants long right now. If he's the type of person debating taking a job in an industry he's unsure about, he probably doesn't stand out enough for that 10%.
"Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
1) No, it's not a bad mark.
2) your friends are idiots wouldn't bother to bury in the desert.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
I've been working for gamblers for the last few years, out in Gibraltar. I started in the dev team of one company, but now run in an infrastructure team of another. I don't have any ambition to go to north America particularly myself, but a colleague of mine has a wife and family living States' side, another colleague is American himself (very loud) - so I presume they would hope not to have entry into USA issues post employment here. I have seen a wide angle of work ethics within the gambling industry, some companies being quite strict on software releases and infrastructure changes being rolled out to production, others running along the lines of "free-for-all" changes in production - bless them. So do ask the right questions in interview, otherwise you could find yourself applying Saturday night changes in production ....
>/dev/null 2>&1
OK. Some folks write that it would not be a Black Mark, some that it would be.
Probably for some it would be, for some not.
As for me, personally, in my opinion, it would definitely be a big black mark. I would probably never tell you this in your face if I will have to work with you in one team.
But, frankly, I would never consider you a part of a fair world, part of a goodness. Never ever. You will be in my opinion a part of force of darkness and evil.
I do not argue that this opinion is correct for everyone. It is just the way I feel about it.
As Gandhi wrote: "Be the change you want to see in the world." What change will you be?
No, actual self-delusion can be directly harmful, because it can result in committing resources not warranted by the rationally expected utility (that is, the entertainment value.) Willing suspension of disbelief and self-delusion are actually very different things; and often only the former is needed to enjoy gambling and, thus, to derive entertainment utility from it.
If I wrote web code for an online gambling site, it could be used anywhere, not just in the US. And it's really unlikely that the government would come after me, unless I was foolish enough to have my name on the registration of the site.
And even if they did, I'd roll over faster than my 401k...
The bit about "move elsewhere" is interesting. What if we were talking about tobacco or alcohol. There are some parts of the country where tobacco, alcohol and gambling are flat out bad social baggage. If you live in and wish to work in these towns take stock of the job market and take care in deciding to take the job.
In todays job market getting a quality job is just hard, so do not err on the side of imagined bias.
Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't. Mark Twain.
I think not. It's a worthless metal for day to day use.
Steel, copper, and aluminum have more intrinsic value. Things can be made and used with those materials. Hell, fired clay has more value than gold.
Gold is a shiny, soft metal. It has a value assigned to it as much as paper of the digits of my online bank account.
My first programming job was with a porn company. A lot of people told me that it was a career move that would get me stuck in the porn industry. After about six months I was sick of the job and started looking for a new job. When I got an interview with a bank for an Internet Banking role I told them exactly what I did for the last company minus what the content we were distributing was. Nobody ever asked me in the interview what sort of sites I was developing, just my technical experience. Once I had the job for a few months I told the people I worked with at the bank what my last roles was and they all kind of had a giggle at it.
If I walk into a place with 100 grand and walk out with 110 grand, I won ten grand. You can wax as philosophic as you like, but the fact remains gambling and earning profit from it is how most folks would define "winning." The fact the house ALWAYS wins in the end only reinforces the point I just made.
I'm not worried about recruiting people who may have experience working in the gambling industry - in fact that would probably be a good thing. I'm more worried that you are thinking of leaving the UK. We find it hard to recruit really good juniors in the UK (small firm, not well known but with some great work and based smack in the centre of London) so why do you want to leave? You must be better than most - you already read /.
Problem is that because online gambling pays so much and there are so many fools in it just taking the big wage you are grouped together with those.
Once people get into the online gaming industry its very hard to go back to a normal job where you get low wages and have to be competent.
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Depends. Does the company have games Nevada/New Jersey licensed? That's a tier 1 job in the gaming industry. Steady work.
Tier 2 is Indian gaming. There are a bunch of game companies at this level that aren't the big-three. Working for these guys can be good but it'll be much more entrepreneurial environment. Lack of resources, lack of a reputation outside gaming too.
*Some* gaming industry software is very tough coding. Most is graphics/compliance/device interface programming. You probably won't get to the hard stuff for a long time. But it can be very steady work with interesting problems.
Finally, the gaming industry is a big silo with three gigantic companies owning most of the industry, not very many links outside and weak generalized brand awareness. (Oracle vs. IGT) A smart company *outside* of gaming that has the slightest clue would snatch you up in a minute. But, most HR departments aren't that smart.
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