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Computer-Based System To Crack Down On Casino Card Counters
An anonymous reader writes with this excerpt from Yahoo Tech outlining a system currently being researched: "Card counting is perfectly legal — all a counter does is attempt to keep track of whether the cards remaining in a deck are favorable to his winning a hand (mainly if there are lots of tens and aces remaining in the deck) — but it's deeply frowned upon by Vegas casinos. Those caught counting cards are regularly expelled from casinos on the spot and are often permanently banned from returning. But given the slim house odds on Blackjack, it's often said that a good card counter can actually tip the odds in his favor by carefully controlling the way he bets his hands. And Vegas really doesn't care for that. The anti-card-counter system uses cameras to watch players and keep track of the actual 'count' of the cards, the same way a player would. It also measures how much each player is betting on each hand, and it syncs up the two data points to look for patterns in the action. If a player is betting big when the count is indeed favorable, and keeping his chips to himself when it's not, he's fingered by the computer... and, in the real world, he'd probably receive a visit from a burly dude in a bad suit, too. The system reportedly works even if the gambler intentionally attempts to mislead it with high bets at unfavorable times." It's not developed in Vegas, though, according to the brief description (the other projects are also interesting) from the University of Dundee's release, but rather in conjunction with the Dundee Casino.
I will never play Blackjack in a casino environment, unless it's for negligible amounts of money.
"How dare you attempt to win one of our games!"
It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
- E. Debs
Then they shouldn't have the game on the casino floor. Don't get all pissy when people figure out how to put the odds in their favor.
In a much fairer way, this is what I think they should do with FPS games.. there should be a ladder, at the top are the absolute best players, they get there by starting at the bottom and scoring more than a standard deviation of points over all the other players. That way the rest of us average (or, in my case, terrible noob high ping bastard) players don't have to put up with being continually schooled. In the case of blackjack, they should just cap your bets. You wanna count cards? Sure, but you don't go off the $10 table ok?
How we know is more important than what we know.
The few casinos I have visited (around East Asia) use continuous shuffle machines with multiple decks. Seems like a far cheaper method of defeating card counters without having to confront them with big burly dudes and earning bad PR.
If you're new to slashdot, don't bother reading the article. Especially in this case, where the article is already contained in the summary here.
The casino doesn't like the way you play, so they're taking their ball and going home.
Las Vegas has made card-counting a non-factor. Between high deck-count shoes, variant games with unfavorable rules ("Super Fun 21"), and early shuffle thresholds, even a player keeping a perfect count cannot create a significant edge. And the million people who show up to try their hand at it and fail far make up for the cost of the few who can eek something out anyway.
Do they say something about the reliability of the method? Percentage of false positives? Those can mean angry customers and lost business.
The very premise of a casino is that it's a business that plays games for money. These games are conducted fairly and have public rules set out in advance. The profit comes from structuring these games such that the casino has a slight edge. Everyone knows that.
The problem comes when the casino breaks its own rules. It's a fundamentally deceptive business practice in any field to tell public that one set of rules applies, then to actually enforce another. If Blackjack is not profitable, the game should be modified or dropped. "You are not permitted to win" is not a fair rule, especially when it's a hidden rule. It's no different from rigging the odds of slot machines, and there are laws against that.
They really don't give God a chance to prove its existence, do they?
They use 8 damed decks for blackjack. Poker is a joke. The perpetually spinning roulette wheel is an abomination. Video slots are stupid. It does not pay to play at all.
There are two reasons to go. For the whores...oh wait Vegas can't stand the competition so you have to drive an hour north for that. So the only reason to go there is so you can say you've been there and paid 8 bucks for a V8.
A friends wife sums it up nicely:
"Vegas is like Monte Carlo as re-imagined by white trash." --blkkitty mzmadmike's wife
http://mzmadmike.livejournal.com/
I'd go on a Vegan diet but the delivery time from Vega is too long. --brownkitty
Casino's would go broke if the odds weren't in their favour. The whole way they stay profitable is because the odds are for the house. Not a whole lot in most games, and what the odds are is tightly regulated (at least in Nevada), but they are ALWAYS in favour of the house. Even if they were slightly in favour of the players, even 1%, the casino would lose money in the long run.
If you gamble in a casino with the belief you can win in the long run, you are an idiot. Winning is an anomaly, it has to be for the business to work.
Ummm ... if they have this computer thing then why don't they count the cards too?
Besides, I thought Casinos only played half the cards in the deck these days (ever since the MIT card-counting club) to avoid the counters from getting any real edge.
No sig today...
Um, casinos don't send burly dudes anymore. This isn't the 70's. In fact, if they suspect you of counting they simply politely ask you to stop playing. If you are caught playing again, then they may ask you to cash out your chips and walk you out.
The main reason people go to Vegas is because they're stupid.
Well, ok, they do have some good shows there. If you avoid the casinos and just see the shows I might let you off the hook.
No sig today...
FTA: "By comparing the cards and gambling patterns, the computer can identify a card counter inside 20 hands - even if the gambler starts off with a run of high bets to confuse the system."
Yeah, right...
No sig today...
Why don't they just get it over with, and just take your money?
It's not like making a game, with rules and all, really makes that much difference if they just decide that because you are playing the game by the rules, that you are somehow bad because you succeed? So, you can play the game by their rules, so long as you lose?!?!?
This is retarded. I've given the casinos less than $10 of my money for gambling. I'll never give them more than $20. Fuck them and their stupid "you can play by our rules so long as you lose!" mentality. Nevermind their billion dollar profit margins...
I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
I made 300 dollars playing blackjack the first time i ever played anything in a casino and i will never play again.
No what they do is put 6 decks in the shoe but then play 4+ (they will reshuffle somewhere in the middle of the 5th deck). I had heard before that for the most part they don't care about people trying to count cards because it's hard to do correctly, and if you don't do it correctly then you're going to lose in the long run anyway. I suppose this system is one way to weed out the people who are doing it correctly.
I know someone who did this seriously, and I looked into it for a while. If you really dedicate yourself to it, and can follow the system, you can succeed. One thing to remember is it is all mathematical. Theoretically (although not in reality), you can place bets only when odds are in your favor! When the first hand is put out of a new deck, the odds are against you. Let's say for the first few hands of that new deck, most of the 4s, 5s and 6s from the deck have been dealt out, and none of the 10s or Aces. The odds swing into your favor, and get better and better as that pattern continues. Theoretically, you can watch the game, and only sit down and start betting when the odds turn in your favor. In reality, this will mark you as a counter, especially if you place large bets when you sit down.
The initial problem with counting is, you dedicate many, many hours to getting good at counting, but as soon as you start making money, you go in the "face book" and are banned from casinos (or at least banned from playing blackjack).
So you have to get a team together. Most teams have a lot of low level counters who bet small and when a decks odds turn in the player's favor (or when a deck turns significantly in the player's favor) they signal a "big player" on their counting team, who sits down and starts making big bets. If your team is betting big money and is successful, eventually they'll figure this out as well, but if you keep trading players out and are clever, you can keep it going, and make some money.
The problem is it takes a lot of discipline. With a team, you need good discipline from a lot of people. You need to trust everyone with large amounts of money. One person screwing up can blow your whole team's security. It is not an easy thing to do. On top of it all, even if you succeed in getting a disciplined team, once you get rolling, Griffin will begin figuring out who you are. Remember, you have dealers, pit bosses, floor managers there not to mention the cameras which have film saved for quite a while and then Griffin investigating. If you can get a competent, disciplined team like that together, why not start a company or something, without having the pain of all that security breathing down your neck once you get good? Ultimately, you have to do it for enjoyment as much as the money. Because it takes a lot of work, discipline, and relations with regards to the team.
make casinos plenty of money. Every time I hear about bullshit like what is reported in this article, I always suspect that the casinos are behind it. I wasted years playing blackjack, counting cards, and losing money (great recreation, losing money), and I never once witnessed anyone being banned at the blackjack tables. The idea that this is common is a lie. So, get good at counting cards, go to the casino, count your way to a measly fraction of a percent advantage over the house and still watch your money burn. Too bad you didn't consider risk of ruin. Give me a 100x more bankroll and I'll give anyone a fraction of a mathematical edge.
FAQs are evil.
Since card counting not cheating, by simply intelligent play, I think there should be a national law (so the bought-and-paid for Nevada Legislature isn't a factor) that anyone asked not to play a game or escorted from a casino, no matter how politely, gets a $10,000,000 payment from the casino, and the casino is fined an additional $10,000,000 to defray enforcement costs.
Anyone who attempts to block card counting is a cheating thief and deserves serious financial pain.
I've got an even better system; It uses a complex algorithm based on bet amount won and bet amount lost. If the value returned is greater than or equal to 1, the player is identified as a "winner" and promptly taken care of. The great thing about it is that it can be applied to any game of chance! Vegas will love it.
My favorite teacher in school, a physics guy, loved to play poker in Vegas. He lost, of course. But he played blackjack and won - after every Vegas vacation, he came home happy: he had funded his poker losses from the blackjack table, and came home neither richer nor poorer. He never did tell us how he did it, but it involved some pattern in his betting and he must have counted cards. He probably never ran afoul of the burly guys simply because he never got greedy.
Enjoy life! This is not a dress rehearsal.
I saw once a report about that in TV, as it was english I was not sure if I understood it correctly.
So: if you "track" the hands played out in your mind and are "counting" the remaining cards, you are cheating? I can't believe/understand that. Every child plying with cards is taught to keep the remaining stock in mind. Most german card games like "Skat" and similar games require you to have a good idea which cards already got played and which are still on hands or in the stock.
How is a person supposed to play black jack if he is not "allowed" to track the cards in his mind?
angel'o'sphere
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
Casinos are evil. If you play enough, you will ALWAYS lose. Casinos take advantage of people who are foolish enough about money that they think they can win.
Card counting is illegal? That's totally stupid. If someone's going to get thrown out of a casino for doing well and winning money and knowing how to play the game well, what's the point of even playing the game in the first place?
Great shows.
I watched the various games rules explanation in the hotel tv and laughed at the atrocious stupidity one must suffer to even consider playing with the objective of winning money.
During the small part of my honeymoon I was there, I spent the considerable quantity of 0$ in games. However I did spend several hundreds of your cheap (at that point) bucks in fantastic shows.
I plan on going back soon (EUR-USD parity willing). I know I won't play a single chip and I know I'll still have a wonderful time with the shows.
About the whores. They are, by a large margin, better this side of the pond. Not that I'd even consider one, taking into account they give even worse odds than a casino.
People think that the odds are against the player, which is true. The key is teamwork and discipline. Like in all aspects of life, games, battles, cons and sports, competent teamwork overrules single talents. A single player is easy to get detected, a group of 80 people playing the house is really hard if not impossible. And 80 is not just a number that came to my head, it is the actual number of people that it is known to have existed to work in group. This type of splinter teams still exist, and they are still making money today. The members of these teams are constantly replaced as they get blacklisted by the casinos.
I was between 10 and 12 when my mother explained me how the state lottery worked. Even at that point, it seemed terribly unjust, because it's not a null sum game. The state/the casinos always win because of the outrageous rules they enforce. Since then, I have never played, and I try to educate everybody around me. Organized gambling is really a tax on the stupidity of people.
Richard Feynman once found out that the only way to make money in a casino is by betting against one of the stupid customers, not by playing against the casino.
Just find some poor sob that is shaking a dice while muttering "Six, six, come on, this is gonna a be a six. Go over to him and say "I bet it won't be a six".
One day I'll try that, if the casinos still allow it.
They who are incapable of counting cards to attempt it.
And how will you collect the debt when you win?
Don't worry if you don't know the answer. Vegas has a large population of debt collectors who'll be happy to help you for a small fee.
On a completely unrelated note, you don't count running among your most loved hobbies, right? What about walking?
Well then your chance should come soon... I don't know when you went, but the EUR is nearing all-time highs against the USD again. And has been rising for months on end now. So assuming your money is in EUR and you want to buy USD then it's getting pretty cheap by now.
Or of course you could consider Macau. Their currency (the pataca) is coupled to the Hong Kong dollar, which is coupled to the USD. And casinos there just use HKD all the time. No idea if it's as good as Vegas, it is at least very different. I like the city - especially it's historical Portuguese-looking centre.
While baring a player from the start of the game is fine, baring a player during the course of a game is akin to changing the rules in the middle of the game.
Blackjack has better odds for the house at the beginning of the game and worst odds for the house at the end. Letting someone play for the first half of the game and then forcibly removing him for the second half completely change his odds of winning.
I think casinos should only be allowed to bar someone after the end (or before the beginning) of a blackjack game. Removing him in the middle changes the odds and is therefore (at least morally) cheating.
It doesn't take any real skill to "count cards". There are easy-to-learn systems that only require incrementing or decrementing a running total in your head. They're by no means perfect, but given a favourable shuffle they can give you an edge. The strategy is to sit there making minimum bets until a favourable shuffle occurs.
In practice, here's what happens: Casinos deal from a multi-deck "shoe", which has a "cut card" inserted toward the bottom of the stack after shuffling. The cut card is there to ensure they never deal to the bottom of the stack. (If they did, there could be times that a player could bet with absolute certainty). However, they are under no obligation to keep dealing until they reach the cut card. A competent dealer can recognize a shuffle that would play out in your favour, just as well as you can. So whenever the count starts to swing in your favour, there's no need to "send over a burly dude in a bad suit". They simply shuffle the cards!
This is what a couple of friends and me learned when we tried to play a card-counting system in Reno back in the 80's.
Thank you very much. I will indeed consider Macau.
That seems to be true with most casinos in Las Vegas. My friend would tell them he was going to count cards and most of the time the pit bosses actually come over smiling. They want to see if you can actually pull it off.
99/100 dumbasses that say they can do it are full of shit, screw it up, and ultimately look foolish in front of the casino. That was straight from the pit boss. They really don't seem too worried about it.
My friend was the 1/100. He kept it small though and we just ending up getting comped into a couple of shows and buffets since he was bringing a lot of other action to the table.
The maffia won't kick you off the mountain when you seem to be able to reach the top?
"Kill 'em all and let Root sort 'em out"
If any Casino catches you counting cards you will get Banned for life from the property.
Why would I sign up to a Mickeysoft loving site like /.
Yes, but .... they claim to be able to spot a counter by that time, *even if* the counter is playing to fool the system.
Not gonna happen.
No sig today...
Isn't it funny how playing the Numbers was made illegal. Unlike, of course, the 'state' run lotteries where you have to wait forever and a day for a large winner. When Iowa started their lottery they were having winners 'too soon'. People were winning around 2-4 Million and the jackpot wasn't getting as high as other states' jackpots. So, they added more numbers. Bigger wins but a smaller number of winners. :P One news report stated that people 'prefer' casino type odds when gambling. Riiight It didn't have to do with the fact they were getting the interest off of all that money. And that the higher the jackpot the more tickets an individual would buy.
So, I'll stick with Bingo. There's always a winner, there can be multiple winners, and at least the money is going to someone local.
Care killed the cat, but satisfaction brought it back.
What do casino owners call a man with a system??
Friend
Most casinos will pick you up from the airport and give you 720 comps just to have you prove how badly your system sucks.
And of course if you are in that Whale Class whatever you win will be paid back by the 10,000 minnows you helped shake down.
and of course don't forget back in the day casino security did not exactly concern themselves with "legal problems".
Any person using FTFY or editing my postings agrees to a US$50.00 charge
I once worked for a gaming company. The video poker/keno/whatever machine would throw a "hot player" flag to alert the staff when a player was winning too much or too often - not that there was anything actually wrong with what the player was doing, but just alert the house that things weren't going the house's way and maybe someone should look into it, distract the player, or throw 'em out.
Can we get a "-1 Wrong" moderation option?
Atlantic City laws say you can't be kicked out for being a card counter.
Casino's explicitly make it possible to do card counting ... they make more money convincing the people who are bad at it to try while banning the people who are good at it than they would be simply introducing continuous shufflers. Like everything else in a casino, the non prevention of card counting is a carefully calculated strategy to optimize profits for the casino.
it is like gambling in some ways (high risk, potentially high reward), but with a better chance of success if you learn to read the charts.
During a CNBC interview, Steve Wynn stated his casino keeps 20 cents of every dollar bet.
The performance of his casino is strictly determined by the number of bets placed - not by the games played.
That tells me that EVERY game favors the house - as does blackjack including the card counters. If the games did not favor the house, they would eliminate them from the casino floor.
-ted
Because they can't. House doesn't play like a player does; that's why the house has an edge. House always plays by a set of fixed set of rules, generally hit on 16 or less, stand on 17 or more, no hand splitting, doubling down, or insurance. However, the house doesn't start playing until you decide to stand, or go bust. If you go bust, the house wins without playing.
A casino may do this as a defensive measure if they suspect card counting, but they don't like it. It slows down play and cuts into their profits.
They brought back a lot of single deck last time I was there years ago, but in single deck a blackjack now pays 5:4 instead of 3:2. Sounds subtle to the amateur, but it's a huge hit to the player. A lot of the player's side of the math is that occasional 3:2 payoff. I can still do well with double deck with a modified single deck system, but Blackjack is pretty dead now. Cripes, they used to have prime time promotional hours where they'd pay 2:1 for blackjacks.
The whole place has lost its identity anyway. First they tried catering to families for a while, and then they went after the "high end" market- whatever. I make nearly $200K a year and the place feels ridiculous now. Vegas used to be a place where Joe Average could feel like a champ. In my dad's day they'd comp you stuff if you just stood still long enough. He once got a coupon for a free buffet at a casino he walked into just to use the rest room. True story.
Now I would not be surprised if you told me they started charging for the air in the rooms. I knew it was really over when I was walking through the Hard Rock Casino (*gag*) and saw a big crowd of people looking at something, and there was Paris Hilton in a shop (excuse me, a Shoppe- no, wait, a Boutique) trying on hats. Also true story.
--My friend was the 1/100. He kept it small though and we just ending up getting comped into a couple of shows and buffets since he was bringing a lot of other action to the table.--
Yeah, I think they are famous for feeding you especially if they take your bankroll. They used to be famous for that and maybe letting you sell a spare tire to get enough gas to make it home on.
I'm a dealer at one of the tribal casinos in Connecticut. The idea that the dealer has anything to do with the outcome of the game is laughable at best. In Blackjack, the dealer is severely restricted in what he/she may do on any given hand, no splitting, standing on all 17s. In fact, the dealer can not make any decision on his own will, violating any of these rules (which are laid out by the Gaming Commission, not the casino) is a good way to lose your gaming license fast. Quite simply, the casino doesn't need a crooked dealer to maintain the house edge; even one loose player on a table full of skilled counters can disrupt the game to the point where everyone loses.
"There is a sucker born every minute"
Looks like Cole's(Laurence Fishbourne) worse nightmare has come true.
----- You know you have ego issues when you register a domain in your name.
Vegas is an illusion of wealth.. except for top casino execs (and possible shareholders). As a player, if you actually manage to win, you're banned from playing. Cheaters have used tech to steal from casinos. Now the casinos are using tech to stop "cheating". Card counting is viewed as cheating b/c it has the potential, if done properly, to give the player the advantage. Thus, taking money from the casino.
is to not gamble at all.
I will remember to point that out to them when they're smashing my hands with hammers.
Legal gambling entities make money off the mentally ill in my opinion. And as for this "card counting fraud" technology, anyone on a winning streak will look like he is card counting. With this computer technology in place they will have an excuse to end any hot streak. "The computer says you are card counting!" Who questions a computer result today? Who can? And when did using your own mind and abilities come to constitute theft and fraud?? It is just bizarre and points out that the whole casino thing is government sanctioned, logically bankrupt, legalized theft from people with problems. Sqreater
E Proelio Veritas.
Screw casinos. If they don't want people counting cards, they shouldn't be offering games such as blackjack. Period.
There is NOTHING ethically or morally wrong with counting cards; after all, the odds are known to both the "house" and the gambler Their problem is that when the offer blackjack, the cards dealt to everyone are known, so a careful observer would be able to know if there are more low or more high cards left in the deck. Since these are known factors and simply looking at what is dealt is not cheating, casinos have no business kicking people out for doing nothing beyond being attentive.
Don't want people counting cards? Stop offering blackjack or any other games where everything that is dealt is revealed to all.
I've thought about trying my hand at counting cards (I've never played blackjack btw) because the theory is simple enough; it's nothing more than keeping track of high and low cards - as I said the premise is easy enough but actually doing it under pressure in a fast-moving game while surrounded by distractions is entirely different. To see how simple the theory is check out the wikipedia article at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Card_counting
The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
No, but they can do something far worse to you if they think you're card counting: require you to flat-bet. That eliminates everything you would potentially gain from card counting.
Since you have no legal "right" to be allowed to play a gambling game that a privately owned company is legally offering, your proposal of a law makes no sense. You being allowed to gamble in a casino is a privilege the casino confers on you, not a right granted by the constitution or other laws.
As is your right to use the same facilities as the 'white folk' use.
The decks, shoes or whatever always come "pre-shuffled" from some back room.
This is totally untrue.
The dealer does NOT have the ability to decide to shuffle early. The dealers are not allowed to make any decisions at all.
If they're doing this, they're cheating, and can lose their gaming license over it.
"Home version of the lottery!" Take a five dollar bill out of your pocket. Wad it up and throw it away. Ta-dah!
If they're following the outlined rules and they're still losing money, then it sounds like yes, they DO have an obligation to lose money! (At least, up until they modify the rules to avoid it.)
Even if they made it a rule in writing on the wall that "card counting is not allowed", it's pretty tough to enforce it fairly. Effectively, such a rule amounts to enforcing "thought crime" -- because they have no way to directly see into a player's brain and figure out what they're thinking. All they can do is look for patterns of behavior that suggest card counting is going on.
Systems like this have been around for many years, and have been used commercially in various casinos. There really is nothing new or unique about it. I also see no evidence at all that it's reliable enough to use in a real casino environment, or to be of any help at all.
Remember, this is just some kid's college project. I'm sure he's enjoying the attention, but this is not an innovation.
The commercial units combine video tracking with RFID for measuring chips and betting. These systems are very expensive, and don't work all that well. They're also easily defeated by skilled card counters using various techniques. This system is too.
As for card counting itself, there is really a lot of misinformation on here, but here's the gist:
- It's totally legal, and it's totally legal for the casino to ask you to leave if they don't want your business.
- They don't do this often, because most people are losers, even if they're trying to count cards.
- They don't care if you win a ton, if you're just lucky.
- It only gives you about a 1-2% advantage overall. That's really not a lot.
- The MIT team didn't invent any of it, including team play. Nor were they all that successful or profitable overall. Disregard the movie, guys.
- It's not that hard to learn, but it does take practice, a strong stomach, and a huge bankroll to ride out the inevitable swings.
- Expected earning is around 1-2 units per hour. So if you're playing $25 units, you'll make $25-$50/hr in the long run.
Not bad, but not great either. And you should have at least $25,000 (1000 units) as a disposable bankroll to do this, or you risk going broke fairly easily.
- Lots of people think they can do it, but few really can. The ones who think they know what they're doing are subject to lose a lot of money in short order, so the card counting hype is of benefit to the casinos. They've known this since Thorpe's day.
- Casino rules vary wildly from location to location, even with a casino. Same thing for card counting conditions.
Yes, I've studied this quite a lot. Anyone have any questions?
is a pattern in raising and lowering bets.
Card counting is not that hard, it just tells you when to raise your bet. If you car counted but never changed your bet they would give a rats ass.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
You're still not beating the odds. If you don't gamble, the odds are you won't lose any money to gambling.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
If they called it losing, nobody would play.
Imagination drew in bold strokes, instantly serving hopes and fears, while knowledge advanced by slow increments...
Interesting, could it be that it's different by state? I'm not sure how the laws play out for the Indian casinos but for the normal ones I'm thinking that they are going to be regulated by the states and not a common federal law.
Really, I know what I'm doing...Ohhhh, look at the shiny buttons!
Atlantic City laws say you can't be kicked out for being a card counter.
Atlantic City law says that casinos can only offer games of chance. Asking card counters to leave due to their counting activity would be admitting that Blackjack is a game of skill.
if you know when they anomaly is likely to happen is the key.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
...sounds remarkably enlightened.
I never really understood how it could be considered legitimate
to kick out counters. They are just good players. A casino
shouldn't be able to kick out people "just because they win".
If the mark has no chance of winning then the whole enterprise
is a total con and should be treated like such.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
[citation please]
Also, tell me where any law, except for civil rights reasons, says you can't "reserve the right to refuse service to anyone".
Private property means you can be booted for any or indeed no reason, just on the whim of the owner.
And finally, tell me one case where a big fat company ever had to follow a silly rule like that.
Good job, you spent hundreds of dollars on what you consider entertainment, others spend hundreds of dollars on what they consider entertainment, yet somehow you come off all smug about it.
Oh, it gets worse. There is a craps player in the Midwest, "Dave" who is dedicated to making a profit and is rumored to have stayed at a table for about twenty hours and been down around $14000 until he managed to come back and make a $500 profit. He NEVER TOUCHES THE DICE! Just bets "Dont Come" and lays the odds on the inside numbers. House advantage on these bets is approximately 1.41%, since he doesn't lay the outside numbers (On the 4 and 10 you lay 2 to get 1, can put a strain on a bank roll in the short run) it is actually a touch higher, I'm to lazy to calculate it. Because of his dedication and discipline to walk away a winner, the gentleman is barred from Harrah's midwest properties. Don't expect to ever get a fair deal from a casino.
There is no right to feel safe thru security vaudeville at the expense of everyone's freedom, privacy and tax money.
[citation needed] I know courts in the US and Canada have held that card counting is a ligit strategy, but casinos can still kick out anyone they feel like.
Not a typewriter
Okay - but the house still has the advantage there. He was probably booted out for some other reason - like making the table boring, or they felt he was driving other customers, away, or whatever.
You've just described something like many other gambling methods.. people figure that, eventually, they'll win if they stick it out long enough.
Table limits and the house edge prevent this.
Blackjack is still the only game in the modern casino where there is enough information available for the customer to occasionally get an edge on the house.. and as to why they don't just shuffle after every hand, or something else? Blackjack is appealing - more than any other game people think they can beat it... and that draws in players, most of whom will lose.
Card counting is relatively easy - and so is getting caught.
Having software to catch counters makes sense - just as in any other industry, having software that can replace the work of a human tends to be cheaper ;)
Casinos offer players the chance to win money under particular conditions dictated by the mechanics of the game. Card counters aren't altering those conditions but instead are playing intelligently according to the rules of the game. To kick players out for seeking an advantage within the rules of the game is actually form of fraud: the casino offers players potential winnings and then reneges on its offer once it decides it's against its best interests to allow the player to continue. The casino is cheating.
Whether or not a player has a legal right to be there is irrelevant. Once the casino allows a player into its premises it shouldn't be able to renege on its promise (express or implied) of potential winnings. Property rights are not supposed to enable fraud, but that's exactly the way casinos are using the law.
Unfortunately, the fact is that casinos are allowed to practice what is ultimately a form of legalized theft.
"In prison you just have to shut your eyes and take it. Here you have to shut your eyes and give it."
You don't need to count cards to do ok at blackjack. In fact, counting cards is counterproductive because the number of cards in the shoe means you won't be able to predict anything with any reliability. Counting cards lets you fool yourself into THINKING you can predict what's going to happen, which leads you to losing too much money.
Try my approach, which is based on one factually true premise about any number of decks of cards: if you average all the values, the average will be approximately seven. So you just assume that the next card is always a seven, and over time, in aggregate, it'll average out to be true.
So that's rule 1: "The next card is a 7". Look at what you've got, look at what the dealer's got, and if (you + 7) > (dealer + 7), and ((you + 7) 21, or (dealer + 7) you, you stay, and hope the dealer busts. Over time, in average, your assumptions will prove to be reliable and you'll gradually gain money.
I won 500 bucks the last time I tried this at a 10 dollar table. I have two other rules:
Rule 2: If you lose 3 hands in a row, or there's a dealer change, go have lunch and come back in a half hour, picking a different table.
Rule 3: Start with 100 bucks in your pocket. Keep that hundred bucks on the table, putting everything you win over a hundred bucks in your pocket. As you lose chips, don't put any back on the table; when your chips go down to 0, stop playing and go do something else.
Rule 4: Never play at anything more than a 10 dollar table.
RESULT:
You'll generally never lose more than 100 bucks (and that'll take a couple of hours). Also, you'll frequently gradually accumulate money, maybe a couple hundred or so.
... I know courts in the US and Canada have held that card counting is a ligit strategy, but casinos can still kick out anyone they feel like.
A city is similarly free to put in place laws regulating this further on its territory. Just as it can regulate any other business.
Of course, I would assume that there aren't many casinos in Atlanta because of that.
The dealer does NOT have the ability to decide to shuffle early. The dealers are not allowed to make any decisions at all.
If they're doing this, they're cheating, and can lose their gaming license over it.
This is true. But the dealer can inform their floorperson about suspected cheaters, and that floorperson can then tell the dealer to cut the next shoe differently, shuffle differently, or a million other (sometimes superstitious!) techniques to throw a suspected card-counter off the trail.
... keep the casino happy by spending most of your winnings on games you lose or on entertainment or tips.
The bottom line:
If they know you'll walk home without much extra cash in your pocket, they won't mind if you win big at a particular game.
Just be sure you establish a reputation: earn a little, spend almost all of it, earn a medium amount, spend almost all of it, earn a lot, spend almost all of it, and make sure when you walk out you say "thank you, that was a very entertaining vacation" but make sure your wallet is in roughly the same shape it was when you came in.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
Atlantic City != Atlanta. Atlantic City is the New Jersey equivalent of Vegas. It was never as successful as Vegas, though. Where Vegas eventually shot off side industries in less shady businesses, Atlantic City just got more run down.
Anywhere, there are plenty of casinos and even blackjack tables in Atlantic City. Card counters aren't a huge threat in practice.
Not a typewriter
Because they can't. House doesn't play like a player does; that's why the house has an edge. House always plays by a set of fixed set of rules, generally hit on 16 or less, stand on 17 or more, no hand splitting, doubling down, or insurance. ...
Quite right. But what if the house found it in their financial interest to use a shill at one of the player seats, to irrationally hit (and try and suck up the 10s/As) on a favorable count? Maybe someone wandering around the floor, getting buzzed over to tables where the pit boss (or computer in the sky) suspects a counter?
I haven't thought that all the way through to decide if that would ever be possible or practical, but if it is, I'd bet on the casinos doing it.
I went to Vegas for my second or third time, long ago. I thoroughly memorized the 'Basic Strategy' of 21(Revere) and I also kept track of tens. I arrived on a Friday night, along with my friends and played I must as I could( strip & downtown). Left Sunday evening with about the same amount of money I brought; my friends had been to the ATMs a few times.
I wonder if it's in the casinos best interest to demonstrate that if you, in fact, "manage to beat the odds" the odd (guys in suits) will beat you.
___
No power in the 'verse can stop me
Yes, in some cases they do, but really most "card counters" are still losers. The ones that count and stay at a table make it appear "hot" and the rubes roll up and lose way more than the winner is winning. The only counters I've ever seen even given the evil eye from the pit boss was players rolling up to the 1 or 3 dollar table for 3-5 bets on a weak dealer (the kind in training that fucks up deals and has to redo them occasionally). Those counters usually swoop in and bail really fast cause they don't want to get banned.
The other thing to remember is blackjack is the dealers will have winning rations against players, since they all play by the same rules it's all about what their personality can make you do. Half of card counting is to ignore anything the dealer does to you.
Card counting is legal, so the system is allowed to count my cards. But is it legal to link those cards to my person?
My guess is that the system is less subtle than claimed and just totals the gains. Only long run losers are allowed to the table.
This is totally untrue.
It's a tad harsh to brand me a liar because my experience doesn't match up with yours. As I wrote quite clearly, this was based on my personal experience in Reno over 20 years ago. Maybe the laws were different then. Maybe the dealers were breaking the rules. Whatever the case, this is what happened when I was there.
Thinking back on it now, I recall they would also change the dealer if we were winning. Perhaps there is some loophole that they are allowed to reshuffle if a new dealer comes in?
suspected cheaters
"Suspected card counters". Card counting isn't cheating.
It's okay for the house to count cards using computers, but not okay for players to do the same.
Even beyond this, they use machine shufflers and shuffle after EVERY hand at some casinos. It happens fast enough as to keep the hands per hour up so the casino can still get as much money from the suck^H^H^H^H customers as they did before
Forgot the link
http://casinogambling.about.com/od/blackjack/a/shuffler.htm
If your making money hurts their bottom line, their finance dept. will take great offense.
At least it's not like the old days when their finance dept. was named Guido.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
It applies universally, including on reservations. If they're shuffling away a known player advantage, they are cheating. Good luck prosecuting them, though.
Very few bother with this, however, as the casinos do quite well even without cheating the customers, and it isn't worth the risk.
Right. That's very different than shuffling when the player has an advantage, and letting it play out when they don't. Cutting off lots of the shoe is pretty common, or just restricting them to flat-betting is quite effective.
This is what I'm saying is wrong:
"However, they are under no obligation to keep dealing until they reach the cut card. A competent dealer can recognize a shuffle that would play out in your favour, just as well as you can."
Yes they are, by state law and the gaming commission. A dealer is not allowed to make *any* decisions, period. If they do make decisions, such as shuffling early, they can easily lose their job, if not their gaming license, just as I said. They are cheating, no two ways about it, and it's prohibited.
If they change the dealer when people are winning, either the floor person is being a superstitious idiot, or far more likely, they suspect the dealer is making mistakes, such as flashing the hole card or screwing up payouts, which can be hugely profitable for a skilled player.
My sentiments exactly. Imagine if they were throwing out everyone paying attention to the odds in poker.
For that matter, if the outcome is deterministic and unfavorable, why have the game in the casino in the first place?
because I was on a table where the dealer was showing 6, so I split a pair of kings. My friends said I "Stole" their cards.
Boy, I never heard the end of that one. Won that hand well enough though 8')
How much is your data worth? Back it up now.
Sounds logical. I'd also say that I don't think the OP was lying just rather that he happened to run into the rare instance of a casino cheating.
And as you say good luck getting anywhere with that.
Really, I know what I'm doing...Ohhhh, look at the shiny buttons!
They mention that the software will sniff out a card counter within 20 hands. I find this very hard to believe since card counting still requires you to wait for the deck to turn hot, I've done whole nights of counting cards at the casinos and not found one hot deck, on which I would stray from my normal betting tactics or basic strategy. Maybe it can spot the big spender on a blackjack counting team within 20 by keeping a running count of all the tables. It also didn't say anything about how a really good blackjack player would also be shuffle tracking and cutting to aces at will, these strategies would help his betting look more random too.
I read about a similar machine about a year ago. I don't know about anywhere else, but the Atlantic City gaming regulators disallowed it because it counts cards, and using a machine to count cards is illegal in Atlantic City -- that goes for the casinos too.
There are 4 different cards assigned a value of ten. The odds of a "non-ten" card coming up are 1 in 13. The odds of a "ten" card coming up are 4 in 13. This is 4 times more likely than any other outcome. Why not assume that the next card is a "ten"?
I think what really happens is that "over time, in aggregate, it'll average out to be true" that the well-understood house advantage will win. That's how the fountains, lights and giant hotels get paid for.
There was an episode of the old Buck Rogers in the 25th Century serial (back in 1979. Erin Gray::hotness!) where Buck went to a 'casino' and started to gamble. They threw him out for winning, saying that he must have a hidden calculator or something on him. Buck said that, no, he was just using his brain to play the game, and said something alluding to people not being able to think or do something basic like figure out odds or something like that.
Point is: casinos don't want people using their brains to play either. They want sheeple to throw their money away. By trying to weed out 'counters', they're admitting the targeting of stupid punters.
OK. Fine. It's a private establishment and they it is their right to set their rules and to select their customers.
However, shame on the citizens of these states (mine included) for giving the force of government laws to these thugs' schemes. They can use all the wiz-bang technology they want, but if you so much as bring in a mechanical counting device you will be fined and do time in jail.
I've never understood why a self-respecting, rational person would give anything to these cretins.
They would ignore you.
You have no right to due process at a casino.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Never surrender! :-)
Seriously, only some really arcane counting systems I have seen ever incorporated surrender.
A very famous computer once said, "The only way to win is not to play."
I think that applies perfectly well in the context of gambling.
Casinos don't mind in some cases. Somebody who is net winning can give an appearance of a "hot" table, and those who can't count will come over and bet big even when the count is low, giving the casino more money back then was lost, and even then they otherwise would have gotten out off the player in that short a period of time.
Any well educated pit boss is aware of this, and will not be too worried unless the counter is pulling in enough money that the losses will overcome any gains from that. The big problems in the Casio's mind are counters tipping off other players about when is bet to bet, beyond the other players watching the betting amount, and card counting teams. Counting teams worry the casinos far more than just about anything else.
Now for some related OT thoughts:
Just like casinos are not worried about skilled craps throws, despite evidence under lab conditions that experts can manipulate the results slightly, perhaps just enough to turn the odds in the player's favor. This is extremely hard to pull off in practice, and only players that make the smart bets could profit, so the casino's are far more worried about players bringing in altered dice, etc.
The only other game where a player might be able to win overall in a casino is poker. For the most part this is because the house is not a member. However, in theory poker is winnable even when playing actively against the house (house players), as long as the player knows basic strategy for this poker variation, is an expert in detecting deception (finding tells, and otherwise identifying bluffs), and is an expert at deception (manipulative betting patterns, bluffs, manipulative offhand comments, body language, etc). Card tracking is theoretically possible too, which can give a major advantage in poker, although is virtually impossible to pull off well.
While I understand that casino's do NOT want to lose money, a game like blackjack is somewhat hard to monitor. What happens when I clearly see that a bunch of aces/faces have gone out, and change my bet accordingly? Am I going to get banned for card counting?
Defender of Microsoft and Communism!!!
I'm replying a bit late on this, but it took a few days to obtain the information I was looking for.
Prompted by your comments, I began looking online for a list of regulations pertaining to how Blackjack (or "21") may be dealt in Nevada. This proved more difficult than I expected. I located extensive documentation on Nevada's gaming statutes and regulations, but nothing specific about when dealers are permitted to shuffle.
I did, however, locate an e-mail address for general inquiries to the State Gaming Control Board, and e-mailed them the following question:
I’ve been searching online (to no avail) for a list of regulations on how casinos in Nevada are permitted conduct the game of “21” or “Blackjack”. Specifically, I’m trying to determine what (if any) regulations exist regarding when a dealer is permitted to shuffle the cards. Are dealers legally obligated to deal until they reach the “cut card” inserted in the stack of cards, or may dealers choose to re-shuffle the cards before reaching the cut card?
Thanks in advance for your help.
Today I received the following reply:
The Nevada Gaming Commission requires that all licensees who put up a licensed gambling game for play to the general public must have a set of house rules for each game. We do not spell out how they need to deal the game, but the rules must. If you have a problem at a licensee you can request to see their rules or ask a pit boss on what their rules are on dealing and shuffling. As most games are dealt according to industry standards they do not normally vary a lot. If you are playing on a single or double deck hand dealt game which usually is a higher minimum bet you might see they shuffle more if the casino thinks patrons on the table are counting cards. It is not illegal to count cards, but a licensee can detect it very easily and by shuffling more they remove any advantage a card counter might be getting.
(Name removed before posting online)
Special Agent, Enforcement Division
Nevada Gaming Control Board
So, the official word is that it is not "cheating" for dealers to reshuffle early.