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Russia Recalls Modern Warfare 2
eldavojohn writes "You may recall much ado over some questionable footage in the latest Call of Duty game. Well, that footage has led to a recall of Modern Warfare 2 in Russia. Seems the Russian government was none too happy about the portrayal of Russia in the game and decided to yank it from stores. Infinity Ward has responded with a patch that removes the 'No Russian' mission (the content in question) from the storyline. Before you overly criticize the Russian government, there may be some truth to the claim that the game's story line overly demonizes Russians as just terrorists as the Russian site GotPS3.ru alleges. Is cultural sensitivity becoming an overly played card in the gaming world? Not too long ago, Wolfenstein was recalled in Germany for containing Nazi symbols."
> Before you overly criticize the Russian government, there may be some truth to the claim that the game's story line overly demonizes Russians
Oh, I guess that makes it okay, then. The Russian government has every right to make up your mind for you.
It's sad and pathetic how some countries have such thin skins. It must be so awful to be a major nuclear power and yet be so terrified of any kind of real or imagined insult.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
Its actually illegal to display swatika's in public in Germany and Austria.
RTFM is not a radio station.
I'm a casual gamer, and me and two other buddies play for an hour 2-4 nights a week. Its a great way to keep in touch.
Anyways, here's what I REALLY don't like:
* auto-aim across a map. Takes all the skill out of a good shot. Zoom. Fire. Zoom. Fire. Zoom. Fire.
* Works with pistols. At a 1000 yards.
* Disabling party chat on open-gaming. Now we HAVE to listen to the stupid chatter of the 14 year olds. We're in our 40s. Good god shut it off. Yes, I know I can mute all but friends. And since when can a game disable a console feature? I paid for party chat with my XBL sub!
* Can't play co-op mission.
* Can't play spec-ops with more than 2 people. (there's 3 of us, remember?)
Damn, its SOOO close to being perfect its not even funny. Amazing how a few minor changes make me wish I hadn't bought it. Looks like we'll be getting more play time on WaW. Those last two points SUCK BIG TIME for the 3 of us!
Assuming that it portrays them in an objectively false way, you still have to demonstrate that censorship is a good idea.
I propose that it's a lousy idea, that games are art, and that inaccuracy isn't a reason to suppress art.
Consider the Russian government "overly" criticized by me!
-Peter
When are the Vietnam missions coming out where a villiage gate opens and you have to pillage and rape all the civilians? That's right, nobody is stupid enough to do it for the same reason.
Oh boo hoo. Russia has a bad history, it should expect criticism
While we Americans were sitting on our rears eating bon-bons, more Russians died than in all of America's wars combined fighting Adolph Hitler. Love them or hate them, forced by circumstances or not, the Russians did more to save Western Europe from Nazism than anyone else.
This is my sig.
The fact that the games existed in order to be recalled shows that the issue is with the countries, not with the gaming world.
Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
There is a slight difference in the two. The Wolfenstein recall in Germany had little to do with cultural sensitivity, and a lot more to do with the fact that in Germany it is illegal to perform a Hitler salute, wear a Nazi uniform or display the swastika, all of these being good for up to three years in prison.
Given that, it's probably not unreasonable to think that some people in a given culture might find being demonized for a game not to their liking. Make a game of the early white settlers murdering millions of native american indians, and you'd probably piss off the indians and the poor rednecks who were never taught about it before they dropped out of school.
Fascism: An authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization. See also: NAZI's
Not too long ago, Wolfenstein was recalled in Germany for containing Nazi symbols.
Germans are anti-nazi-nazis.
Would you play the Jihad Freedom Fighter game that one day demonizes the US?
Having played through and beaten the game. I don't think anyone comes away with their hands clean. The games name is "Modern Warfare" and it's dirty, gritty and cold blooded.
Grand theft Auto I - IV never left me questioning anything I did because of the comedic gameplay. This game did.
I don't think they should mess with the content but I do think they should have said something about it. Politely, formally, respectively. I mean this is Russia: if they can't pirate it, who will?
In 'No Russian', you play as an American CIA agent, and you, as an AMERICAN agent, lay round after round into the innocent populace, alongside the Russian antagonist. I think the even larger message Infinity Ward sends with this mission is the atrocious things the American government is willing to do for the sake of 'National Security'.
Does anyone else see the hilarity in this? Not to mention their foreshadowing of American soldiers torturing an informant via electrocution! Each side of the geopolitical spectrum gets demonized in their own right.
But hey, lets just hate on the game that shows the gritty reality of the world.
'We are trying to prove ourselves wrong as quickly as possible, because only in that way can we find progress.' RPF
How many sales do software companies even make in Russia? Russia is notorious for hacking, pirates, and spam; not a place where a lot of sales are to be made.
The US military spends half the game trying to recapture a Burger King and the other half trying not to bomb their own White House. At least the Russians get portrayed as *competent* terrorists.
...the Russian government should probably pull all the Red Alert titles from the shelves too. Using FMV to portray actors with terrible Russian accents is an affront on everything the Russian people hold dear.
It would have been nice if there were a discussion of the "demonizing" of Russians from a site in English- to hell with site translators. I haven't played the game and don't really know if the game portrays all Russians as terrorists. I'm fairly sure they would have been content to depict Muslim Chechens as all being terrorists though. A Russian guy once told me about how Russian police(?) wrapped Chechen terrorists' corpses in pigskins to prevent their souls from escaping their bodies.
What does this have to do with history?
If you have played the game, its clear it makes Americans seem as the true, innocent heroes fighting against bad bad Russia. Even after so long after Cold War Americans still have the type of thinking that Russians are The Evil.
The war is started by Makarov's set up, but its clear the whole game romanticizes Americans.
I'm curious what America's response would be to their people being demonized. I'd love to see a game set in Iraq or Vietnam where America invades your country, kills your people and attempts to rest control of your homeland away from you. Or how about a game focused on WWII's war between Japan and America that ends with 2 of your cities being vaporized?
I would love to see games from a different perspective. It would be refreshing. That and it would generate a lot of amusingly ironic commentary from Americans.
That misses the point. If they don't like it, why don't they release a game that portrays the US as villains? The irony is that it would probably sell out in the US. My son & his Xbox friends all love playing as the evil bad guy.
I prefer rogues to imbeciles because they sometimes take a rest.
Seriously,
My fictionally perfect game that will sell WAY more than this title will have country-specific enemies. Marketed in the U.S? Russia. Marketed in Russia? U.S. Marketed in India? Pakistan. Marketed in Pakistan? Indians.
They'd sell more games pandering to country-specific deeply ingrained cultural enemies. Maybe the game engine doesn't support locales like that though.
http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html
The problem Russia's Ministry of Internal Affairs had with the mission is not with how the Russian villain is portrayed (although that probably didn't help the game get a positive reception), but with the fact that the mission is about killing innocent Russian civilians. It does not matter whether the villain is Russian or French or American or Martian - killing civilians at an airport is, according, to a Ministry spokesman, "propaganda of terrorism" and hence illegal.
See http://www.gotps3.ru/article/call_of_duty_modern_warfare_2_zapretjat_v_rossii/ for more details.
Probably a lot of protests, a few of your more "paternalistic" chains, like Walmart might refuse to stock it, but in the end it would sell, because the protests would bring a much larger audience than it could have gotten on its own...
Hell, you'd probably get some special interest groups screaming "its about time" and buying it out on principle.
--
I drank what?
I've played, but clearly you haven't.
SPOLIERS
Did you completely forget the massive subplot where Col. Shepard was in cahoots with Makarov to initiate the attack on American soil? His motives be damned, towards the end you were fighting hordes of Russian and traitorous US troops.
but its clear the whole game romanticizes Americans.
Imagine that. You'd almost think the game was written by an American gaming company or something.....
Seriously, who cares? Who cares if the game presents Americans as wholesome apple pie eaters and Russians as murderous baby rapers? Is this really something to get Governments worked up about? Shouldn't the story here be about censorship rather than game content? Make a game that portrays Americans in a negative light and sell it here -- I doubt our Government will feel the need to prevent our people from buying it.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
What does this have to do with history?
What indeed? Games are for entertainment and doing precisely the kind of things that would be a bad idea in real life. If you want to blow away Russians, Americans or Iranians, your government has no business keeping you from buying the game. In fact, as a Russian, my curiosity is now piqued. Although I would prefer a politically incorrect title to the tune of Leisure Suite Larry or Duke Nukem.
Russia has a bad history and so does everyone else. I don't see the mainstream video games industry making much effort to portray the negative sides of countries they're based in or where their major markets are. You can use art, including video games, as a critical tool - but if a developer really has an artistic interest in social commentary, rather than just finding convenient stereotypes to build plot around, I'd expect them to be tackling the dirty laundry of other major powers from history. That said, being located in an unstable region with various power plays going on in their vicinity, Russia does make a plausible setting for dramatic military stuff to go down.
I thought the Allied Powers wrote the law in 1945?
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Exactly. But none is going to do it, publish it or sell it. And it would most likely be banned right away.
we need to crack down on demonizing countries and people in video games. as an example, theres a notable portion of the populace that have an extremely difficult time discerning between sean hannity's tangential commentary and REAL news. What is to stop this portion from being creatively incensed even further to adopt a polarized stance to the rest of the world based on gameplay they forgot is not part of history or even a remotely accurate portrayal?
lets go back to places and people that arent real, so we can be free to form our own opinions without entertainment media driving them to extremes.
Good people go to bed earlier.
Go to school... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_support_for_Iraq_during_the_Iran%E2%80%93Iraq_war Iraq was a US mignon during the cold war. and Iran was help by the soviet.
why dont they just make a game where the RIAA are the bad guys?
Release an alternative mission that involves first going into an American school and massacring the schoolkids, then by chance stumbling upon the president out on a jog and killing him, who happens to be Obama.
-5billion flamebait.
The article isn't specific on whether the infamous airport scene is being removed because of its portrayal of Russia, or whether it's being censored because it's an unpleasant part of the game. Most other countries have had uproar about this scene and I'd expect to see it refused classification in some places (e.g. in Australia where Left 4 Dead 2 recently encountered problems). A national classification body refusing to allow a game to go on sale does, effectively, constitute the government disapproving of something - but it's a very different situation to central government stepping in and banning something directly for political reasons. Maybe this is happening behind the scenes but the article *doesn't say*.
It's certainly suggested that the Russian gaming public weren't all overjoyed to see the portrayal of their country in the game. That's hardly surprising, though - I expect most gamers from other big markets such as Europe, the US and Japan would also be quite easily offended if their unpleasant past was dredged up. People don't like to think of their country ever being the villains and yet pretty much every country in the world has been villainous in the past, often surprisingly recently.
In Capitalist America, you ban the game.
In Soviet Russia, game bans YOU!!
I've been to Germany a number of times, and had a long-term relationship with a woman living there. I met a lot of Germans.
I wouldn't say that modern Germans are 'in denial'-- really, people's reactions run the gamut. But what is true, is that everyone there has a strong opinion on the matter. Many people have a deep sense of shame about it-- after all, in many cases the people who perpetrated the atrocities of WWII were parents or grandparents. Some people had nothing to do with that part of the past, or are descendents of victims, and they feel that the German people are wrongly villified. A minority-- and unfortunately, these people are growing in number-- think that the whole Holocaust thing is revisionist history. It's not that people don't talk about it, but it is a very sensitive issue, even among Germans, and so you'd understand if they don't want to talk to you about it.
Interestingly, when I was in Germany, many people I hung out with constantly complained about "repressive American political correctness" while also failing to notice that American 1st Amendment freedoms are much stronger than the German equivalent. There's definitely a bit of a different philosophy at work there (e.g., most Germans I met are not as optimistic as Americans when it comes to populist regimes), but with regard to how, exactly that differs, I have not been able to put my finger on it. Maybe a German reader would care to comment.
I'm curious what America's response would be to their people being demonized.
There would be a lot of whining but I'll wager that our Government wouldn't feel the need to prohibit our people from buying the game.....
That's a small little difference between the US and Russia that most people in this discussion seem to be omitting.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
The mission is called "No Russian" for a reason. Without being too much of a spoiler, the title is from the words to you by the terrorist leader at the start of the mission, reminding you not to speak any russian. Because he plans to blame the attack on outsiders for political gain. So theres no real implication that the game is portraying Russians in general in a bad light in this mission. That being said it was one of the more shocking experiences I have ever had in a video game. There is very little explanation of the mission objective before hand, so when your 'squad' opens fire you are completely confused. I bet it would make for a psychology case study to see what people do when prevented with this situation. But anyways, its really an interesting game for the situations they put you in. Its a lot different from the last one, as you're not shooting at generic arab terrorists for most of the game anymore. Eventually you really start wondering who's side you're really on or who the good guys are. I really liked it.
"at least I have job..." lol
I'd have a personalized plate on my car, but "toxic bachelor" won't fit into 7 letters.
If that's accurate, then it goes a LONG way towards understanding why they'd ban a game like Wolfenstein, and why they're so adamant about banning sales of Nazi era items on eBay, etc. etc.
I believe that nazi symbols are illegal in Germany, creating the usual ironic effect whenever forms of expression are censored. That is, the act of censoring expression will bring more attention to that which is being eradicated.
A quick google turned up this: http://www.wisegeek.com/is-it-really-illegal-to-display-the-swastika-symbol-in-germany.htm
6th Street Radio @ddombrowsky
Indeed, and at least the footprints of some concentration camps still exist, where they will show you footage of what happened there and give you tours of the ovens and gas chambers. I happened to visit Dachau a few years ago. Repression is not the best way to prevent the past from repeating itself.
While I confess I've never even visited Germany before, I had a teacher who did a while ago. I remember him telling us the Germans had a culture of denial, when it came to the WWII Nazi era. History textbooks would completely gloss over that part of history with only the vaguest mention of Hitler and his ambitions. At first, he tried to discuss and question it with people there, but he said it was almost like running into a brick wall. People would practically tell him to quiet down, because "we don't talk about that here anymore".
If that's accurate, then it goes a LONG way towards understanding why they'd ban a game like Wolfenstein, and why they're so adamant about banning sales of Nazi era items on eBay, etc. etc.
Are you trolling? You are spreading some serious misinformation here.
We have several Holocaust memorial days, there is probably a documentary on the Third Reich and World War Two once week on the TV channel. About a third of history education in school is dedicated to the Third Reich. I think a trip to a concentration camp is even mandatory for school classes.
The display of Nazi symbols is banned (with certain exceptions) not because of denial, but to fight right-wing extremists. And like every government, our government is being stupid and bans Nazi symbols even if they aren't being used by right-wing extremists but by ID software in Wolfenstein. We have a "department for youth protection", which is something like Jack Thompsons wet dream, which does all the censorship. German gamers hate it when their games are being censored, so don't confuse "what the German government does" with "what all German people think is good" like in the thread about the two murderers.
Not to mention how buddy-buddy they were with each other when it came to taking a bite out of Poland. If Hitler wasn't so retardedly ambitious, the whole of Eurasia, Africa, and probably some other parts of the world would be Germany, Russia/USSR, and Japan now. Or maybe not, as the empires would probably fall apart on their own, but that's not the point.
Isn't that what they did with GTA?
All comments are properties and trademarks of the voices in my head. Not like I'm gonna claim them.
Considering the ridiculous amount of hours the players will spend playing this game, these fictional scenarios are bound to cross boundaries with reality in the minds of avid gamers. Russia has a valid concern.
You mean those long 5 months? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pact
Seriously, Stalin let Hitler attack Britain & Poland. They were double-crossed. The Soviets did sacrifice a lot, but let's be honest. They were bastards.
Except for ending slavery, the Nazis, communism, & securing American independence, war has never solved anything.
I'm curious what America's response would be to their people being demonized. I'd love to see a game set in Iraq or Vietnam where America invades your country, kills your people and attempts to rest control of your homeland away from you. Or how about a game focused on WWII's war between Japan and America that ends with 2 of your cities being vaporized?
I would love to see games from a different perspective. It would be refreshing. That and it would generate a lot of amusingly ironic commentary from Americans.
The response would be "Who fucking cares?" Then the silence that would echo in your ears would be all the Americans not caring.
Everyone in the whole world already knows the worst possible thing you could be on Earth right now is: White, Christian, Male, and American. We are already demonized in every other form of media around the world, do you honestly think we would give a flying fuck if it happened in a video game???
Trust me when I say we don't care what you think about us. Try to fuck with us too much though and see what happens hahahahhahaa!
"Be prepared, son. That's my motto. Be prepared." --Joe Hallenbeck
A good percentage of games and media made in the U.S. portray the U.S. government in a bad light, and yet they don't get yanked. (pun merely fortuitous)
But I would not call the "Memorial of the Murdered Jews" in Berlin any sort of openness embracing of Germany WW2 history either.
Your comment is like a white person saying "I'm not racist i have black friends"; just because they built something to memorialize an atrocity that was mostly ignored by most of their population does not mean that they have finally embrace and acknowledge that part of their history.
I have been told over the years by many instructors who have experience what King TJ instructor have experience while staying long term in Germany as well; Germans do not like to talk about "that" part of their history.
The game was supposed to draw parallels to Afghanistan without being that obvious (imagine your country being invaded all because of the acts of one person/small group of people). Its clearly criticism against he US government.
Oh well, the Russians aren't missing much. The plot was quite frankly kind of stupid, like it was written by Michael Bay. The snowmobiles/speedboats move at 150 mph too and don't feel even remotely realistic.
I have to say that your teacher has no clue what he's talking about, even though this behavior was widespread in the generation fighting this war (which is pretty obvious...try to explain to yourself you took part in genocide) this holds no longer true today.
I am German and WWII is anything but glossed over. I'd even say it is exaggerated. During my school career WWII and our 'Sonderweg' (special path in history) were central aspects, they were repeated over and over until it came out of your ears. The German culture, up to this day, has not recovered from the moral blow.
Our government and population are outright afraid of being accused to have forgotten the past. We will do anything to tell you it is our fault anytime, we will stoop as low as we can. To this date it is not possible for Germany to talk openly to Poland or Israel for example. We cannot do a neutral decision in matters of immigration and there are a thousand other things like that (to which the ban of the swastika belongs).
It is because our politicians and population always feel the sword of Damocles above their heads. If there is one thing you have to be afraid of in German politics or community then it is being called a Nazi or being compared to them. It's like Godwin's in real life. You can override any argument if you play that card.
Hm, this got a little long. Well just as additional value for all you non Germans out there (especially to the Americans, since that student exchange I feel some of them need a reality update) : Hitler is dead, yes we have electricity and we don't use the Hitler salute anymore.
In Russia you have the freedom to say whatever you want, and the secret police have the freedom to disappear you the next night. It seems Russia has more freedoms than we do here in America.
My webcomic
If you trace the the story back it all originates from a forum post on a Russian game site. Despite this, the story has been picked up by the Guardian UK, PC World, Gamespy, to name but a few. Yet not a one of them has done anything to verify the report. How hard is it to call a Russian retailer or "My Gosh!" someone in the gov't. This is just another example of the incestuousness of today's news where the reporter's job entails nothing more than reading newspapers and websites.
I overly think the word overly is the only overly used card.
World in Conflict did this... well not the raping and pillaging... but attacking the U.S.A.
Iraq: Former Soviet Ally
A former American ally that received weapons of mass destruction from the United States. Ah, the sweet smell of nerve gas in the morning.
Nazi Germany: Former Soviet Ally
Soviet Union: Former US Ally.
SSC
So this would be the Streisand-Godwin Effect?
"This post contains words, known to the State of California to cause thought. Wash brain thoroughly after reading."
Shouldn't the story here be about censorship rather than game content? Make a game that portrays Americans in a negative light and sell it here -- I doubt our Government will feel the need to prevent our people from buying it.
I really doubt there would NOT be any problems to release a game where you're an Iraqi fighting against the invading your country by American soldiers, trying to protect your country from the "bad". To give some extra perspective to the game, the American soldiers could be raping your families and completely destroying your country (interestingly that's not even made up story, as it's real). Or where you would be designing terrorist attacks against USA. Do you really think that would be allowed?
But there's no need to think what would happen. It would be banned for obscene material and the creators sent to jail, like in earlier case:
Extreme Associates and owners Robert Zicari, also known as Rob Black, 35, and his wife, Janet Romano, aka Lizzie Borden, 32, pleaded guilty in March to a felony charge of conspiracy to distribute obscene material through the mail and over the Internet and got over an year in jail time.
It's not like we don't have a culture of denial here in the US. We wiped out the American Indians pretty remorselessly. That's pretty close to genocide, but it doesn't get taught that way in our schools. Every nation tries to overlook the terrible things its done in the past. People and countries are pretty much all the same, wherever you go.
Much of the modern legal systems in both Germany and Japan still contains elements that were dictated to them by the Allies after WWII. They did not choose this viewpoint entirely of their own accord, but accepted it as part of the peace agreements.
Any serious student of history sees their can be no moral high ground to look down on other civilizations. Each one has done terrible things in the past. Acceptance and understanding are what will prevent past travesties from being repeated.
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law
Imagine if Japan release a game where you shot at fat Americans leaving various fast food chains.... oh who am I kidding we would play that too. Probably while eating sushi.
and the right amount of money and suddenly it all becomes a misunderstanding.
The Russian government is as corrupt as any other because it still is staffed by humans
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
Is cultural sensitivity becoming an overly played card in the gaming world?
Yes. Yes it is.
Reply to That ||
I think you're confusing Germany with Japan. Japan gloss over their ww2 history with the atrocities they inflicted upon their neighbors and that is part of an on going problem to this day.
The Germans do not have a culture of denial. Time is spent covering this theme although it varies from instructor to instructor what material is covered. On average I would say anywhere from 3 to 4 months is spent studying but it is not a tabu thema.
Damals war es Friedrich is a book that is usually covered in class. The reason for the ban of symbols, greetings etc. are set in the constitution. Example: Imagine if you will that Democrats are outlawed - to be a member is illegal, the party is not official, the symbols are illegal. Fast forward 60 years and it becomes a big PC issue.
Man blir trött av att gå och göra ingenting.
Have you played the game? Americans get demonized quite a bit, as other posters have stated. The final baddie is the US General and your character who kills him is British SAS.
Yes, I do think it would be allowed. I think that such a game would be a failure in the marketplace and that many stores (Wal-Mart) would refuse to sell it but I do not see the Government preventing you from publishing such a game. If you have any evidence to suggest that they have done so recently then let's see it.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
I'm curious what America's response would be to their people being demonized.
I'm curious as to what planet you've been living on in recent years. America is regularly demonized by little shit-stain, wanna-be dictators, their regimes, and masses of useful leftist idiots that support them from the sidelines.
It's not like we don't have a culture of denial here in the US. We wiped out the American Indians pretty remorselessly. That's pretty close to genocide, but it doesn't get taught that way in our schools. Every nation tries to overlook the terrible things its done in the past. People and countries are pretty much all the same, wherever you go.
When did you go to school? In CA in the 80s and 90s it was certainly presented as a genocide.
"I zero-index my hamsters" - Willtor (147206)
Russians who believe they single-handedly took down the Nazis are as foolish as Americans who think they single-handedly took down the Nazis.
As any reasonable historian will tell you, it was a combined effort. The Nazis lost because they were outnumbered. Had the Nazis not invaded Russia (or at least waited until the UK fell) or Japan hadn't bombed pearl harbor, the war would have been quite different. It's a testament to both the Russian and US soldiers for what they had endured, but to say simply that the only factor was how awesomely great one army was over the other discounts the thousands of factors that go into modern warfare.
Oh and by the way, we didn't get a whole lot of help from the Russians in the pacific theater. You like to take a lot of credit over the Nazis and you forget that the Italians and Japanese were allied with Germany and someone had to deal with them, and it sure wasn't the Russians.
"All great wisdom is contained in .signature files"
Is there a mission where you kill American civilians as some Al Queda member? No? Why not?
I play games since 1980s and I keep "killing" Russians, "bombing" Russian towns, watching dumb Russian soldiers.
It really seems someone at "New World" better start a global political correctness fashion.
I think they knew the game wouldn't sell original copies too much in Russia so they basically trolled with that "No Russians" level, predicting this or less would happen.
Income: PR, "Reds banning American game", Slashdot YRO story etc. It is far more than the game would sell in Russia.
I, on the other hand, don't think it's realistic enough.
LRN 2 SWM
You might have had a valid point, if the main protagonist in both CoD:MW games wasn't British SAS.
We have several Holocaust memorial days, there is probably a documentary on the Third Reich and World War Two once week on the TV channel.
Only once a week? Man, the History channel must have really cut back on the WWII stuff over in Germany.
Here it's about 50/50 WWII stuff.
If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
To answer the general question everyone asked about what would happen if this mission had been about Americans I'll refer you to Six Days in Fallujah. One of the severely downplayed (though not the biggest) reasons that game was shelved was due to the amount of civilian casualties caused by Americans in their hunt for insurgents.
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/technology/2009/04/fallujahkonamicancel.html
"Reports claim that up to 6000 civilians died throughout the operation." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Battle_of_Fallujah
That being said, I realize that the situations are only relatively similar but they clearly favor the argument stating that such a game made about America wouldn't make it financially speaking. As for it being outright banned or recalled, doubtful.
I'm curious what America's response would be to their people being demonized.
[snip]
That and it would generate a lot of amusingly ironic commentary from Americans.
Apparently you are not curious. Apparently you have made up your mind already. :)
> Is cultural sensitivity becoming an overly played card in the gaming world? Not too long ago, Wolfenstein was recalled in Germany for containing Nazi symbols.
My knowledge of German law/history is hazy, but Nazi symbols are illegal in Germany (and Austria ?) under the constitution except in certain cases. (And the constitution was initiated and signed off by the Allies.)
i.e. it was not "cultural sensitivity", but illegality that affected Wolfenstein.
The real question for me in the Modern Warfare series is why the bad guys are Russian at all.
Why aren't they the usual terrorist stereotype? You know - Muslims.
Probably because instead of a recall they'd be facing death threats like that Cartoonist fellow.
A work that expires before its copyright never enters the public domain and thus enjoys eternal copyright protection.
apparently some people don't know the meaning of the word FICTION.
What about the movie V for Vendetta that demonizes the British Government?
This is really not much different from the movie Red Dawn except that in this case the war was brought by a lunatic terrorist who fooled the Russians into waging war with the Americans. Sounds much like a Tom Clancy scenario to me.
The US General is the real "Bad Guy" in the game.
Is buying a Harley Davidson as your first motorcycle since you were 16 at age 49 a midlife crisis issue?
The game is not recalled. It's just patched, so that there's no airport mission. Well, I don't give a damn about it, actually.
That will teach em to remove dedicated server support.
There would be little commentary. Movies have already been depicting that sort of thing for decades. I will concede that such a game might cause a stir, not so much because it's being depicted but because it's being depicted in a game.
In fact, I'd argue that there would be a lot stronger outrage if Modern Warfare 2 depicted some ethnic groups other than Russians. Remember all the complaining about Resident Evil 5 once people found out the zombies were African? I'd say when you want to depict terrorists and not spark much outrage Americans or Europeans are always the safe way to go.
"I would suggest that the Russians take a closer look at the plot line"
I wouldn't recommend that. All that will do is to drive them insane as the plot is absolute crap and makes little to no sense.
I'm curious what America's response would be to their people being demonized. I'd love to see a game set in Iraq or Vietnam where America invades your country, kills your people and attempts to rest control of your homeland away from you.
You mean like a game where you play as a suspected American terrorist who murders hundreds of civilians in an airport of a superpower and then that superpower comes and fucks your country up? I played it this morning, it's called Modern Warfare 2, and we reacted to it by buying millions of copies. Any more questions?
I've visited Germany a few times, and you can hardly walk to the corner store without tripping over a holocaust museum. The people will generally express their communal embarrassment over this sad part of their history, and the government has gone to great lengths to both preserve the memory of this atrocity, and to make repayments where still possible. Nazi paraphernalia is forbidden there because they do not want Nazism to be glorified or take root again, not because they want to sweep the past under the rug.
That contrasts *very* sharply with other countries I've been to in Europe.
Your teacher either had some sort of grudge to bear, or is an idiot.
There would be problems, sure. People and organizations might protest. The publisher might be wusses, cave from the pressure and decide not to release it. But the Federal Government would not ban it. A few of the dumber states might, but it would be overturned.
And it would be very tough to make obscenity charges stick; anything with redeeming artistic merit isn't obscene.
everyone else. Is cultural sensitivity becoming an overly played card in the gaming world? no.
Even today at important WWII landmarks in Germany I find the documentation on the actions of the Nazi regime ridiculously sparse. Go visit Cologne (city of former Gestapo headquarters) and find the lack of information.. while a lot of people have disappeared there. When I travel around Germany, which I like, rebuilt cities appear to bear no resemblance of the black history..
So yes, compared to surrounding countries, Netherlands, France, Poland, I find the lack of openness on this topic (w.r.t. information, no history) seemingly denying.
That said, I do think the German government nowadays as being one of the more progressive and constructive of Europe.
Fast forward to today's culture: playing the victim. Shouting censorship and behaving like a child who's toy has been taken, when the government/people try and limit violence and references to Nazi's in games. Perhaps it's not about Big Brother government, but about respect.
So yes, considering your well-informed education about the atrocities in WWII (*never again*) and your rigid stance on playing what you choose (i.e. WWII revivals), you are seriously in denial.
I really doubt there would NOT be any problems to release a game where you're an Iraqi fighting against the invading your country by American soldiers, trying to protect your country from the "bad".
There have been several similar games created in the past. Iran's "Rescue the Nuke Scientists" (yeah, shitty title) is one example. There have also been movies which paint American troops as evil rapists/murderers/baby-eaters. None of them have ever been banned in the US. You won't find them in your local Walmart because they don't have any market appeal, but you can track down rare copies in specialty stores, and you can buy them online. If you really think that the US would or could pull a product like that, then you don't understand anything about how the American government is structured.
To give some extra perspective to the game, the American soldiers could be raping your families and completely destroying your country (interestingly that's not even made up story, as it's real [bbc.co.uk]).
Well, if you really wanted to maintain realism, you'd then have to have the soldiers being rounded up by the MP's, put in front of a military tribunal, and sentenced to 90 years in prison. Somehow I get the feeling that you'd like that part left out, though.
Or where you would be designing terrorist attacks against USA. Do you really think that would be allowed?
I know that would "be allowed". Seriously, take the time to familiarize yourself with US law. ESPECIALLY if you're a US citizen.
But there's no need to think what would happen. It would be banned for obscene material and the creators sent to jail, like in earlier case
That's a complete non-sequitur. Unless your hypothetical video game features sexually explicit material, there's no chance in hell of such charges ever being brought. Take out that scene of Obama Bin Laden having a romantic liaison with a goat, and you've got nothing to worry about. Even if you included some pornographic material, chances are you'd have nothing to worry about since the majority of sexual acts would pass the Miller Test. And, in the unlikely scenario that your game DOES fail the miller test, you can always challenge the constitutionality of obscenity laws - something which Extreme Associates was in the process of doing (and had a lot of luck with) until they, for some weird reason, decided to plead guilty. The case against them had already been thrown out once.
In Russia you have the freedom to say whatever you want, and the secret police have the freedom to disappear you the next night. It seems Russia has more freedoms than we do here in America.
Murder is in fact, a fairly uncommon event in Russia, but there is a lot of suicides. Walking in the night time alleyways is suicide, calling Putin a bastard is suicide, you can commit suicide very easily if you aren't careful.
-Paraphrased from Pratchett
The genocide of Native Americans was covered extensively throughout every stage of my public education. Maybe your school just sucks.
The interesting thing in all of this, is the terrorist is a Russian, but he's not working FOR Russia. Half of the game is trying to get information to show Russia what happened and why.
More interesting to me is the fact that the US military (well, at least certain people in it) aren't exactly cast in a good light either, yet no one is railing against it here.
Americans are slaughtered in any number of American made games. Big deal, it's a game.
That said, it's their government, they can ban what they like. How very American of us to get outraged at what another country does to it's own citizens. Perhaps a more enlightened approach would be to let them do as they please on their own land, eh?
Just another ignorant American.
If a game came out that portrayed the US Government as a malevolent system ... I think that US gameplayers and the US Government might have some objections
Sure they might have some objections. There would almost certainly be objections. However, despite those objections, our constitution does not allow our government to censor speech. (First amendment to the US Contitution protects the free speech of US Citizens.)
Did you really write "misunderstanding"? WTF? The plot allows that the U.S. was quite willing to sacrifice an airport full of Russians in order to maintain one operative's cover. Maybe it would have saved more lives had he succeeded, maybe not. But all those people would still be dead. The operative may not have planned the attack, but he sure helped execute it. Undercover or not, he was still culpable for his actions that day. Answer me this... since "only" ~2k people died on 9/11, if one of the Terrorists had been a Russian agent working to infiltrate a cell, and he succeeded and has, directly because of the success of 9/11, saved a million Russians, would the deaths on 9/11 have been worth it or not?
If you're Russian you probably know that during the cold war and after USSR (or Russian) propaganda against US was a lot milder than US propaganda ... in fiction, even during Stalin's time, the "Capitalist" spy was more likely to be a bumbling idiot than a blood thirsty murderer (that was reserved for the Nazis).
The game will be available soon (if it's not already) on bittorrent, where no censorship would reach it, but Russia's govt. had to take a stand before being forced to take a stand by the press or opportunist politicians.
Censorship ? Game (or movie) ratings are censorship, the GTA incident was censorship, and yeah, this is censorship too, except in two month nobody will care and the uncut version will be freely available, and any entrepreneur of violence that would try to stir the s..t up by pointing at this game will be reminded that the govt. is still in charge and took the appropriate measures. P&M have to deal with cold war zombies (such as the dumb frobnicators that wrote and approved the script for the episode in question) from both sides of the visa wall, and they are doing rather well in keeping a balance. They are also busy keeping the lid on the National-Bolsheviks (those might be an "bitter and ironic dadaist joke" party, but from a distance they look like Nazis in scary black uniforms).
Anyway, if a similar game were to be published in Russia, we would be swamped by the Guardian, The Economist, Washington Post, and of course, a whole bunch of slashdotters, with protests against revisionist propaganda, with predictions of doom, and all the defenders of freedom will be foaming at the mouth about "the return of the red commies".
Oh really? What about the notion that the Royal Proclamation of 1763 is the true cause for the Revolutionary War? I had never heard that in school, and only learned of this theory much later in life.
And in case you're unfamiliar, the theory goes that England wanted to stop the killing of the Indians and lessen their desire for war, so they limited expansion. The Colonials saw this as unacceptable and continued to kill Indians anyway. This open defiance is what was eventually codified as an actual Revolution.
It is an interesting theory, and puts things like the Trail of Tears in a COMPLETELY different light. If the plan was genocide from the very beginning, then a lot of the alleged bad faith in the treaty making and breaking was really just part of the scheming. They wanted the land all along, and wanted to kill the people on it.
Thanks, Mr. Anonymous Coward. You got me.
In the end, however, the game would remain on store shelves because of the First Amendment.
The first amendment doesn't keep the retail box on the shelves at Walmart. It doesn't guarantee you access to the console market.
Amazon can cut you loose. Steam can freeze you out.
The developer's only protection is against government censorship.
He can't stop the VFW from circling the Congress with a picket line. This time he probably won't be able to stave off adoption of a mandatory ratings system with teeth.
The Supreme Court has ended the execution of juveniles in the U.S. It may put an end to life without parole for the juvenile offender.
When the intellectual and moral immaturity of the child becomes so important and embedded a principle in the law - it becomes possible to argue with a very real chance of success that some games should be accessible to adults only.
No excuses and no exceptions.
I went to school in the 80s and 90s as well (in FL), and the discussion on that particular aspect of our westward expansion was extremely muted. Compared to the coverage given to Nazi Germany, I couldn't have even rated it as a footnote. I remember there was a single corner of one page devoted to the Trail of Tears, and I think the language was something like 'forced migration under harsh conditions'. That was pretty typical of how the narrative was presented altogether. I'm really surprised to hear you say that it was taught as genocide, to be honest. I don't think many Americans consider the US to be guilty of genocide, but maybe I'll try suggesting it in a crowded room some time and see how it plays. My gut tells me that it would be a lot like mentioning the holocaust in a crowded room in Germany -- nobody would say it never happened, but you won't be very popular for bringing it up.
Sometimes I wonder if the people leveling criticism at the game have actually completed it at all, or simply weren't paying attention.
Modern Warfare is mostly critical of... modern warfare. The ease with which a single deception can lead to mass conflict, the mutual exclusiveness of the extremes of patriotism with morality, the callousness of weighing actions by the "potential" number of lives lost, and the physical and spiritual sacrifice soldiers of all sides are forced to make... the only crime IW committed was bringing the true ethical dimensions of war uncomfortably close to gamers who until now have only exprienced it in the comfort of home, who "recall" war with implanted sentimentality. No mass conflict unfolds without taking innocent casualties, no one's hands are left clean... not people like Shepherd, nor people like Price. In fact, they were two sides of the same coin.
The No Russian stage needed to be in the game, because people NEED to be sickened by war. This doesn't even come close to the kind of soul-wrenching decisions real soldiers face on the battlefield every day to serve their country. Most of us can barely take it in a fictional video game.
What are you talking about? The gp was talking about the Holocaust. WWII started when it was half way done. You are a couple of years off. I for one am quite happy to live in a country where people flying the colours "of the good old days" get a nice chewing over in court. Sad thing is that I seem to be the only one who sees the irony of this censorship debate. In the USA you wouldn't be censored. But you would possibly see the inside of a court room being dragged in there by an overzealous AG on a fast track for higher politics. But you would certainly be shouted down by right wing media.
20 minutes into the future
A former American ally that received weapons of mass destruction from the United States. Ah, the sweet smell of nerve gas in the morning.
That is, of course, a complete lie. The second sentence, specifically, is an outright fabrication since the US never shipped nerve-gas to Iraq. The first sentence is at least based in fact, even if it does completely misrepresent the situation. Specifically, various Iraqi organizations did obtain small batches of various biological and chemical agents from the US. However, a batch of viruses or a load of pesticides is not a "weapon of mass destruction" any more than a lump of iron is an aircraft carrier.
Not too long ago, Wolfenstein was recalled in Germany for containing Nazi symbols."
You should've also read the discussion on that when it was posted, and noticed that a lot of german readers have pointed out that all that goes back to a bundle of laws the the allies, i.e. you americans, most of all forced unto Germany after WW2, before the Federal Republic of Germany was founded.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
As a Russian, let me share my opinion on this.
First of all, I'm generally irked by portrayal of Russians in U.S. mass culture, including films and video games, especially action ones. "Hordes of dumb evil rampaging barbarians" is so cliche. You can do better.
CoD series was never good at it in the past, either - e.g. in CoD5, all Soviet missions seem to emphasize brutality and human waves as much as possible, especially by character dialogue, while American missions seem more focused on "fighting the bad guys". This is clearly evident in two prisoner-taking scenes - in Soviet one, Germans genuinely surrender, but you have to execute them (or have your squad do so), and your only choice is between shooting them and burning them alive. Either way, it's clearly a war crime. In American mission, Japanese fake surrender, and you cannot shoot them until they try to overpower and kill your fellow soldiers restraining them (and then, of course, killing them is perfectly justified). I didn't see much difference in MW2 in that regard. If anything, the first MW was more ambiguous in that regard, since at least you had "good Russians" and "bad Russians"; in MW2, the former kind has apparently rapidly died out again, so we're back to good old stereotypes.
On the other hand, I actually have to thank Infinity Ward for MW2, for one simple reason: it's been a while since any American game depicted a proper, honest-to-God Russian invasion of U.S. soil, complete with shelled cute "American Dream" neighborhoods and burning White House, and the overall gloomy atmosphere of verging on defeat. At least it's markedly different from your typical drivel of a U.S. Rambo squad on rampage somewhere in Siberia, taking out Russian soldiers by the thousands. Just as unrealistic, too, but hey, at least you can appreciate how it looks from the other side now. I only wish there was an option to play for the paratroopers in the initial wave :)
Finally, regardless of my personal likes and dislikes of this and other games touching on the subject at hand, I firmly believe that any kind of political censorship is wrong; and this, especially, is one really stupid reason to ban a game.
There often is a sort of cartoonish view by America of the rest of the world.
the japanese don't self-flagellate that much
and so they do this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversies_surrounding_Yasukuni_Shrine#Politicians.27_visits
and they get that:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Japanese_sentiment_in_China#Effects_of_World_War_II
a little self-flagellation by the japanese would be less harmful for the japanese than visiting that stupid shrine. however, pride being what it is...
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Glad to see I'm not alone. +Interesting
XML is a known as a key material required to create SMD: Software of Mass Destruction
No offence meant, but West Germany appears to have a culture of denial. (Without it, I doubt the country wouldn't be as democratic/prosperous as it is right now).
As said before, I think you are wrong.
Even today at important WWII landmarks in Germany I find the documentation on the actions of the Nazi regime ridiculously sparse. Go visit Cologne (city of former Gestapo headquarters) and find the lack of information.. while a lot of people have disappeared there. When I travel around Germany, which I like, rebuilt cities appear to bear no resemblance of the black history..
Well, shame on Cologne if that is the case. I welcome you to visit Karlsruhe where you can see the Stolpersteine (stumbling blocks) and Gedenksteine (memorial stones) just to name some of the many memorials in my home town which you literally cannot miss if you live here.
Fast forward to today's culture: playing the victim. Shouting censorship and behaving like a child who's toy has been taken, when the government/people try and limit violence and references to Nazi's in games.
Perhaps it's not about Big Brother government, but about respect.
There have been cases where people have been brought into court (although not sentenced) because they had a protest shirt with a swastika crossed out, to show you some of the absurd consequences of that law.
The question of freedom of speech is a separate issue and you can try to make some arguments in favor of censorship. I didn't claim it was about Big Brother government, I just refuted the ridiculous idea that the laws are part of some conspiracy to suppress the discussion of the holocaust.
So yes, considering your well-informed education about the atrocities in WWII (*never again*) and your rigid stance on playing what you choose (i.e. WWII revivals), you are seriously in denial.
I don't even understand what you mean. And I don't play any WWII games.
Americans called it Manifest Destiny
The Germans called it Liebensraum
As far as i know, displaying Nazi symbols is ILLEGAL in Germany.
SPOILERS AHEAD: Towards the end of the game you are killing Americans operating under the control of a corrupt general. In fact, all of the conflict is triggered by this US general. The Russian invasion was a response to a perceived false flag operation conducted by the US. There are no good guys in this game.
The German General Staff in WWII suffered from the same sort of flaws that pervade the American military today. To wit - the commanders are superb tacticians but terrible strategists. By comparison, American generals in WWII were aweful tacticians, when Patton's yer best, you got problems, but, super strategists. Right now, in our present wars, I would much rather have an Eisenhower or a Marshall, someone that can think of the whole picture, rather than Rommel-esque guys that can carve up a country in a few weeks but can't hold an inch of the pie.
I would make the argument that in our admiration of skillful German tactics, we underestimated the civil engineering heritage that used to be a hallmark of the academy prior to MacArthur's bringing in all the sports and placing an emphasis on warfighting rather than army running.
When push comes to shove, I'm pretty dour on old D-Mac and I wonder if he might not be those most overrated American generalissmo of all time. He blew the defense of the Phillipines, he was nothing compared to Nimitz when it came to the Pacific, and he damned near blew the Korean war both before Inchon and after, and he almost blew Inchon as well.
This is my sig.
SPOILERS: -You will find that a corrupt US general is responsible for triggering the conflict and is the main antagonist of the story. -The Russians are merely reacting to a perceived false-flag terrorist attack perpetrated by the US. -You will be killing American soldiers at the end of the game. -Not a single individual in that game could be classified as a hero.
Why is this a troll?
There's a pretty good factual argument to be made that the USA literally picked the English side in World War I precisely because of the massive debts England and France racked up. Yes, there was a common heritage with England, but the USA at that time was nearly as much German as it was English, or had a huge German minority - particular in the midwest.
The fact is, Imperial Germany bent over backwards to avoid war with the USA and the Zimmerman telegram was basically a "WTF do we do if the USA goes against us... maybe Mexico will join us"... but the German high command KNEW they were losing the war, KNEW the war was over if the USA joined it, just on naval strength alone and they threw the hail mary. The british intercepted it.
Woops.
This is my sig.
it will be zombies, aliens and rednecks from here on out. When we discover aliens, it will end up being alien zombie rednecks. In any case rednecks will always be OK to shoot at as long as they are zombies and so long as they are not pregnant with anything other than alien zombie babies.
Its really pretty strait forward put any other way.
Wait, I forgot about demons.
I think you underestimate just how much I just dont care.
Try making a game which features Abu Ghraib.
No sig today...
Excluding the controversial mission (in which by the way I find it kind of hypocrite that you can get away with shooting only for self defense; if I were Makarov and one of my squad members showed less than zealous to participate in the "mission", I'd discipline them right away), there is one more basic question I have regarding war games:
How does it feel for people to play games where they have to mow down legions of soldiers of their own ethnicity? How come Russia is upset mainly for the terrorist scene, but I don't see anyone complaining much for having to wipe out wave upon wave of Russian paratroopers?
Mind you, I'm not questioning the fairness of defending against an aggressor (in a given premise), I'd just like to find out what Germans feel when placed in a position where they have to shoot German soldiers, etc. Is there still fun to be had, or does it feel weird or wrong?
Having said that, I can only think of Half-Life 1 as an example of US Forces being portrayed as the bad guys, and would certainly like to see games or movies present matters from another viewpoint, for some balance.
One of the things that made me stop playing Ghost Recon was that I was getting a bit sick of shooting Mexicans in Mexico who didn't appear to be fighting for much more than stopping US interference in Mexico.
I think you need to correct your statement to allow for Michele Bachmann and Sarah Palin.
Wolfenstein was recalled in Germany because Germany has strict laws about display of swastikas and other Nazi insignia, which the game violated. Not simply because it gave offence.
it makes Americans seem as the true, innocent heroes
yea, shame on them for giving the audience what it wants. when you have a game where you play some villain instead of a hero people get all upset and offended, if you have a game where you play the hero then people get upset about who is chosen as the antagonist.
These games aren't made to pander to the American or Russian government. And provide some ego boost to the populace of respective countries. The games are made to make money. And the fluffy bunny games where everyone is your friend and the only thing you can shoot is a stream of rainbows to collect guests for your birthday party are not typically big money makers.
Maybe culturally sensitive games(I hate this term) where the protagonist's point of view changes depending on which region the game is purchased are worth the additional effort(that means money if you didn't know). I assume a company could make more money in Russia if they catered to what a Russian audience wanted instead of just reselling what works well in America.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
What the hell are talking about?
When i am in Germany (or Austria) and having a few beers at the local pub. Brining up the war is something that almost always happens, and we talk about without a big problem. The only person in Denial here is your Teacher. All Germans are taught about the war and the camps.
Hell last night we worked out that my grandfather was probably shooting at the other guys grandfather and visa versa.
The Grey Goo disaster happened 3 billion years ago. This rock is covered in self replicating machines!
[quote]Did you even play the first game? Half of the plot is fighting in a chaotic (no longer Saudi) Arabia taken over by Muslim terrorists.[/quote]
I've played all the COD games since the first one, except for COD3 which was only for consoles.
But it's been a long time since I played single player so I can't remember the plot line of COD4MW.
The OpFor forces just always struck me as Russian or Russian-backed. I guess it's the Hind helicopters.
A work that expires before its copyright never enters the public domain and thus enjoys eternal copyright protection.
Perhaps before commenting, you should actually attempt to learn what I'm talking about. Namely, that a specific channel here, the History Channel, has gained fame for showing WWII documentaries all the damn time. Not like 'every day', like literally every single second of every day. (Although this is exaggeration, it was only every other second of the every day.)
I have no idea what sort of point you're trying to make about the Holocaust, but what the GP ACTUALLY said was that there was a documentary on 'the Third Reich and World War Two' once a week, and I was commenting that that was not actually that impressive.
If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
Oh, well that's...um...better? Somehow?
I'm so glad I don't have that channel.
If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
For those who are complaining about the scene specifically - It's a game meant for entertainment, just as there are massacres in movies, there can be massacres in video games. They're both meant for the same age group. For those who are complaining about the negative portrayal of Russia - There was also a corrupted general who killed his own men in this game too. It's a fictional storyline, get over it.
something which Extreme Associates was in the process of doing (and had a lot of luck with) until they, for some weird reason, decided to plead guilty
They ran out of money. Lawyers don't work for sleezebags for free. I wish they had continued to fight it because even sleezebags deserve free speech but I understand why they would want to cut their losses and move on with their lives.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
They ran out of money. Lawyers don't work for sleezebags for free.
That blows. I would have been more than happy to contribute to their defense fund, if I'd known about it. I have no interest in their merchandise, but I absolutely abhor the idea of "obscenity laws".
I shot as many as I could and ENJOYED every minute of it... it may have saved a real life that day, considering all the texting, cell phone using idiots i drive on the road with every day.
The U.S. sold anthrax and bubonic plague to Iraq 1 2 3. It may not be nerve gas itself, but there is plenty of evidence the U.S. supplied Saddam with WMD.
SSC
The U.S. sold anthrax and bubonic plague to Iraq 1 [cbsnews.com] 2 [timesonline.co.uk] 3 [gulfweb.org].
Seeing as how your sources basically repeat what I said earlier, perhaps you should have tried the "I'm sorry, I was wrong" approach, instead?
It may not be nerve gas itself, but there is plenty of evidence the U.S. supplied Saddam with WMD.
Then let's see your "evidence". So far you've provided nothing of the sort. The most you've been able to show is that the US supplied Iraq with dual-use items.
If you're going to make such ridiculous accusations, expect to be called on it.
I have mod points and I was about to mod you as flamebait... but I thought it would be better to educate you. I doubt you will listen but here goes:
It was not American policy to rape civilians. The story you linked to showed that people were being punished for that crime. Yes, it was a crime, but you are portraying it as if it was American policy and very widespread. Releasing a game where Americans rape innocent civilians would be in bad taste considering that raping innocent civilians is a punishable crime. Regardless, I would not want to see such a game censored.
strike
"Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
Reagan said to Gorbachev "In America, anyone can go to the white house and say to the president, 'Mr. President,I don't like what you are doing with this country'. In Russia, anyone can go to the Kremlin and say to the prime minister,'Mr. Prime Minister, I don't like what the American President is doing with his country'". now, its the Russian land, so the Russian government can decide what they want. Cant argue much about that.