PS3 Hacked?

Several readers have sent word that George Hotz (a.k.a. geohot), the hacker best known for unlocking Apple's iPhone, says he has now hacked the PlayStation 3. From his blog post: "I have read/write access to the entire system memory, and HV level access to the processor. In other words, I have hacked the PS3. The rest is just software. And reversing. I have a lot of reversing ahead of me, as I now have dumps of LV0 and LV1. I've also dumped the NAND without removing it or a modchip. 3 years, 2 months, 11 days...that's a pretty secure system. ... As far as the exploit goes, I'm not revealing it yet. The theory isn't really patchable, but they can make implementations much harder. Also, for obvious reasons I can't post dumps. I'm hoping to find the decryption keys and post them, but they may be embedded in hardware. Hopefully keys are setup like the iPhone's KBAG."

Comments

Cheating

[sopssa]

I guess the main reason for this will be so you can play pirated games. Homebrew is already possible on PS3 and lets not kid ourselves, piracy is always what these things are mostly used for.

But even more worrysome is if this enables complete access to system and memory, cheating will become a problem. For example 360 hack isn't the same, you can't run your own code or modify memory on it - it merely allows you to play pirat^H^H^H^H^H backups. This will be a lot more serious hack.

I usually play on PC, but when I'm playing on PS3/360 I like that I know there aren't cheaters. While packet-modifying is theorically possible if there isn't any encryption or checksums in the network data, cheating on consoles is a lot smaller problem than on PC and some types of cheats (wallhacks etc) are impossible to create without direct access to memory and code.

And I'd like to keep it that way.

Re:Cheating

[Sockatume]

A lot of lessons have been learned from the original Xbox days. By the end, essentially you couldn't get online without the original dash and a retail game, which limited hacks to whatever you could do with game saves or screwing with the downloaded content. Those are relatively easy to police. I imagine Sony will be keen to do something similar, and set up their servers to dropkick anyone who logs in with an unapproved configuration.

Re:Cheating

[Rogerborg]

Here's an adage that I like to bear in mind:

If you choose to trust your client, then you are planning for failure, because any successful client application is going to get hacked.

I guess it's a simple economic calculation: by the time your client has a large enough userbase that someone takes the time to hack it, you've already made your profit. Screw anyone who buys it after the client is owned - they should have got in at launch.

Re:Cheating

[Anonymous Coward]

No access to the GPU before this!

Re:Cheating

[xous]

Of course! Why didn't the they think of this before?

I mean -- it's brilliant -- vendors restricting our use of our property for our own good, the good of the collective users, or maybe just the good of their bank accounts.

They should do this on cars too. Vehicle manufactures should come equipped with GPS based governors, alcohol detection, sex detection, and reckless driving detection straight from factory. This could even be extended to manual shoulder checks , cellphones, smoking, eating, talking, and everything else that could possibly be dangerous.

I can't wait until PC manufactures starts releasing Windows(tm) computers that are based on the the same principal. Just think. No more spam, malware, viruses, or even legitimate software that Microsoft deems is not "good' for their user base.

Re:Cheating

[dasuser]

I guess the main reason for this will be so you can play pirated games. Homebrew is already possible on PS3 and lets not kid ourselves, piracy is always what these things are mostly used for.

You're forgetting one thing - homebrew is possible, but access to the 3d hardware is disabled so that unofficial software can't compete with official games. That, combined with the removal of the ability to even use a 3rd party operating system in the new hardware revisions, is a rather compelling reason to hack the PS3.

Re:Cheating

[AuMatar]

You can easily cheat anyway. Just use a gateway between your PS3 and the internet. Then you can alter the packet data to your heart's content. See an enemy? Have the program on the gateway auto-aim for you by changing your target coordinates. If you're counting on the platform to stop cheaters you'll be very disappointed. I'd be quite shocked if such programs don't already get used, I know they existed for past platforms.

Re:Cheating

[Hardhead_7]

Oh, sure, that's probably true. But if it's made difficult enough, and the vendor is vigilant for hacking, it can be made almost impossible. Take the 360, where just a couple months ago a ton of hacked consoles were banned from Xbox Live forever. Most people just don't bother with hacking because they know that one day Microsoft might bring the hammer down on them for online play. And it works. I have several friends who pirate practically all the media they consume, but they have vanilla unmodded Xboxes and buy their games. Why? Because Microsoft's anti-piracy and anti-cheat has been overall successful, and really the only way you can cheat on Live is with a lag switch, and even that is harder now since most games let people boot obvious cheaters. What has been said in jest many many times here, I say with a straight face. I, for one, welcome our new online game overlords. I don't play online PC games anymore because of all the cheating issues. There are sooo many less cheaters on Xbox it's a whole different world.

Re:Cheating

[AHuxley]

PPC Linux 2d Homebrew was already possible on PS3 until Sony removed it.
More power to the people bringing real cpu and gpu power to the ps3 box you own.
Thank you smart computer people.

Re:Cheating

[jbssm]

No it's not. In this case there is a very valid reason to hack the PS3. Linux with full access to the hardware! So far you couldn't use the GPU and you where only using a small part of the CPU processing power. Now imagine having this great multiprocessor architecture completely unlocked for you to program it. These are great news.

Re:Cheating

[Jedi Alec]

Vehicle manufactures should come equipped with GPS based governors, alcohol detection, sex detection

Just for the record, are we talking:
a) I'm detecting you're receiving a blowjob while driving, so I'm just going to pull over for a bit
b) I'm detecting you're a woman, so I'm limiting top speed to 50(kph, not mph) or simply not starting at all

Besides, this is /., neither will happen all that often anyway...

Re:Cheating

[Rogerborg]

Mmm. What the XBox Ban-a-Thon shows us:

1. Microsoft had to punish up to 1 million of their own customers...
2. ...some of whom had already been punishing their other customers by 'sploiting...
3. ... the ban was worked around within weeks...
4. ... and in future, we can expect all hacks to be stealthy and more robust.

I'm sure it's working out for Microsoft financially, but they'll always lag behind the exploits while trying to secure the client or play whack-a-hack.

Re:Cheating

[Narishma]

If you mean software update, no they didn't. What they did is remove it from the newer Slim PS3's, but you can still use OtherOS on the fat ones.

Re:Cheating

[ninjakoala]

Actually there is no longer any way to run homebrew on PS3, unless you manage to run it as BD-Live content from a disc somehow (like BluTV).

With PS3 Slim the ability to run "Other OS" disappeared with Sony citing costs to maintain the feature as the reason to kill it off.

The homebrew option was never really that interesting as (like others have pointed out) there was no direct GPU access and there was no option to VSYNC, which makes for horrible media playback.

While both PS3 and 360 have reasonable video playback features, we all know they come nowhere near the power of XBMC and similar solutions. If you only want one device under your television and would prefer not converting/transcoding everything, this hack might well end up being very useful.

I certainly hope to add XBMC functionality to my PS3, because now that the Slim is out, it's pretty easy to move around the house and hook up to and old device (easier than moving my 360s).

Re:Cheating

[Sockatume]

Jesus Christ, he's not coming out in support of locked-down hardware, he's just pointing out that in principle (as has happened on previous occasions) breaking a console can lead to a wave of shitheads ruining your gaming experience. That's a trade-off that's worth debating.

Re:Cheating

[Neoprofin]

So I take it you have no issues with all of the MW2 problems that are simply a result of poorly tested code? For as long as I have played online glitchers have been far worse than actual hackers because the barrier to entry is the 30 seconds it takes some ass on a message board to explain how 1337 they are.

Re:Cheating

[Bert64]

Limited (ie crippled) homebrew was possible on the fat PS3 before this...
You could run Linux, but not get access to the GPU which somewhat limits the usefulness of the system (ie no 3d games, no opengl, high definition media playing becomes harder and more cpu intensive, and interfaces have more lag).

The slim PS3 (assuming this has been hacked too) doesn't even allow this limited access.

Re:Cheating

[MidnightBrewer]

Sony is perfectly fine with you running software sold for the PS3; that's how they make their money. Hacking it so that you can give that software away isn't in their best interest, so they build in DRM. The Windows comparison doesn't hold water in this case.

It keeps their developers happy and maintains a semblance of sanity on their system. It's ugly, but seeing that its main purpose is to be a gaming system, it does the job. They don't stop you from remotely streaming or locally playing any kind of media; you're free to knock yourself out. Heck, they even support DivX.

Given a choice, Sony would rather restrict their infinitesimally small Linux base because, quite frankly, nobody really cares. People who are bloody-minded enough to use them as a processing farm are more curiosities than mainstream, and I'm sure that serious efforts, such as by universities and the like, get one-on-one support from Sony if they want it.

Linux users on the PS3: zero profit. PS3 gamers on the PS3: the whole reason the system was made. I think that the line of reasoning is pretty straightforward here.

Re:Cheating

[rhpenguin]

It would appear that Apple is already working towards that goal.

Re:Cheating

[darkmeridian]

There is a point to limiting certain products so they function as a level playing field. PC gaming is frustrating because of wallhackers and morons with aimbots. Console gaming is preferable because it's generally difficult to hack the system. Limiting products increases the value it has.

Re:Cheating

[Anonymous Coward]

b) I'm detecting you're a 16-35 single white male, so I'm limiting top speed to 50(kph, not mph) or simply not starting at all

There. Fixed it for you.

Re:Cheating

[sopssa]

.. which I did mention in my post, but seriously that is a lot smaller problem and available for lesser users than on PC, where you just download a hack from internet and run it. However, only having access to packet data does remove some kind of cheats, like wallhacks for example.

Also theres a significant technical challenge to do live packet-modifying between PS3 and Internet. If someone is doing it, they probably are also capable of being subtle enough with their hacking. The major assholes running around at 100x speed, aimbotting with 180 angle and just being total idiots are the ones that ruin multiplayer experience from the other users, especially when theres tons of them.

Re:Cheating

[tepples]

you can still use OtherOS on the fat ones.

So how can I buy a fat one with a warranty on the hardware? Or should I just buy an Acer Aspire Revo PC if I want a device that works with homemade programs? Or is the fat PS3 significantly more reliable hardware-wise than Xbox 360?

Re:Cheating

[PopeRatzo]

To reduce accidents, it would probably be more effective to reduce engine performance to a minimum whenever a male driver under the age of 30 is detected.

The best accident reduction approach would be to temporarily incapacitate anyone who touches a smart phone while driving. And then give them a taser-like shock, knock them out and tattoo "douchebag" on their forehead.

Re:Cheating

[PopeRatzo]

The reason cheating is a problem is because we are forced to play on the vendor's network, which brings us back to this being all about copy protection.

This is 2010. Why shouldn't I be able to put up a server and host a game that people can connect to with their PS3 and Xboxes?

For that matter, why shouldn't there be cross-platform network play?

If companies were so concerned about "cheating" in games, why do they build cheat codes into games? And don't tell me it's all about developers testing their code. That wouldn't explain why certain cheat codes unlock game elements sponsored by big corporations. If I put in just the right selection of buttons in just the right pattern, I get that especially hot car with the big Best Buy logo on it.

Sony and Microsoft could give a shit about cheaters. They just don't want people using their "razors" with anything but their own razorblades.

Re:Cheating

[sopssa]

It is perfectly fine to use cheat codes in single player games. No problem with that. The issue is about cheating in multiplayer games. No game has cheat codes enabled in those.

Re:Cheating

[nedlohs]

Yes because zapping the driver into unconsciousness while he is driving at 65mph on the highway will reduce accidents.

Re:Cheating

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes because zapping the driver into unconsciousness while he is driving at 65mph on the highway will reduce accidents.

And that, kids, was the sound of a joke dying.

Re:Cheating

[Publikwerks]

It's not like this is some sort of surprise going in. I know you feel you should have access to everything, and you do(the hacker just proved it). But that doesn't mean Sony has to make it easy for you.
In a way, it is just like Vehicle manufactures. Cars all have proprietary systems, both in hardware and software, that have been increasing tough for independent garages to keep up with. There is a firewall to isolate you from the working components of the car. And if you try to 'mod' your car, you can actually go to jail for operating it on the network(streets). In a way, cars are far more restrictive that the PS3 is.

Re:Cheating

[Custard Horse]

Yeah, that's silly, the CPU should reduce the speed to 60 mph or less then admonish with the taser.

Owned by a car - that's not something you want to tell your friends - peer pressure can sometimes be a good thing!

Re:Cheating

[m.ducharme]

I suspect that incapacitating the driver might be a little more dangerous than using a smartphone while driving. But it does sound like fun.

Re:Cheating

[AP31R0N]

This is piracy:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5iJBxI1FsXSOylzXL8Ituzrin4Hmg

Re:Cheating

[RogueyWon]

Why on earth has the parent been modded up? It's one of the most blatantly misinformed rants I've read in a long time.

Before I go any further, let me make one thing clear; for certain genres of games (fpses and RTSes, in particular), I very much like having a dedicated server option. I'm absolutely not arguing against this; I was annoyed by the Modern Warfare 2 fiasco as well.

However the simple fact is that cheating is less prevalent in games which use a centralised server system, or a closed matchmaking system than in games which have a more distributed public model. At the extreme end of the scale, you have MMOs, where the server infrastructure is more or less provided exclusively by the publisher. The server is therefore pretty much locked down. Yes, you occasionally get cheats detected from the client-side (Final Fantasy XI had a bad rash of these for a while), but they tend to get addressed very quickly and the consequences for getting caught cheating are severe (usually the deletion of your account, with the loss of all progress).

At the other extreme you have Counter-Strike, back as it used to be in the wild before Valve finally developed half-way useful anticheat. If you joined a public game, you could almost take it for granted that at least one person on the server would be cheating. I used to be the head-admin of a league, with a few hundred players, and every season, a couple of those players would be caught cheating. It used to be pretty steady... in the 1-2% range. And by and large, the consequences were pretty low. Until fairly late in the day, the worst that would happen if you cheated on a public server would be that the admin would notice and ban you. If you were stupid enough to do it in a league, your team would get kicked out. Moreover, while bans could theoretically be enforced using a unique ID linked to your Half-Life CD key, the system was so badly broken that it was trivial for even your average idiot to get around it. Over time, Valve tightened up on this - and how did they do it? By more centralised anti-cheat, centralised player-registries and so on.

Allowing cheating in multiplayer games is a very, very bad thing for a developer or publisher to be seen to do. It annoys honest players (who are, anecdotally, more liable to have bought the game legitimately rather than be using a pirated version) and makes them less likely to buy your products in future.

Single-player cheat codes are an entirely different kettle of fish. Nobody really cares if you cheat in a single-player game. It doesn't detract from anybody else's experience. So if companies want to include singleplayer cheat codes, then let them. To be honest, the whole "achievements" thing, and the "socialisation" (I know that's an ugly term, but I can't think of a better one) of single-player gaming on the 360 and PS3 has meant that single-player cheat codes have actually become far rarer than they used to be.

There's an entirely separate discussion over whether "premium" content in multiplayer focussed games is starting to intrude on gameplay mechanics, as opposed to being purely cosmetic, but this probably isn't the time or the place for that.

Re:Cheating

[kwandar]

"I guess the main reason for this will be so you can play pirated games. Homebrew is already possible on PS3 and lets not kid ourselves, piracy is always what these things are mostly used for."

I'm fairly new to the PS3, but I can already see a use for this. I'd like Disney Singstar music for my 4 year old (Singstar is karaoke for PS3), but the only Disney Singstar available is PS2 and region locked outside of North America. Ohh .. and maybe others like me have a PS3 slim that won't allow Linux? And then there are probably some of us just want the hardware?

There are plenty of reasons for this above and beyond a few pirated games, which based on the fact that every game I've purchased seems to requirea a download of content, isn't likely to be an issue that can't be dealt with.

Re:Cheating

[tepples]

Sony is perfectly fine with you running software sold for the PS3; that's how they make their money.

Right now, Slashdot is running an article about the use of game-oriented rapid application development environments to boost students' creativity and critical thinking skills. Microsoft has the XNA framework on which such an environment can be built. What does Sony have in order to train students to eventually develop for its platform? VAIO?

Re:Cheating

[tepples]

PC gaming is frustrating because of wallhackers and morons with aimbots. Console gaming is preferable because it's generally difficult to hack the system.

The problem with console gaming comes when almost no games are designed to be legitimately modded by players. Without legit modding, there would be no Counter-Strike. Sony consoles have RPG Maker 2 on PS2, LittleBigPlanet on PS3, and then what else?

Re:Cheating

[Sir_Lewk]

Thank you sir! May I have another?

Re:Cheating

[tepples]

The issue is about cheating in multiplayer games. No game has cheat codes enabled in those.

Did you mean no game, or no PS3 game? GoldenEye 007 for Nintendo 64 had unlockable cheats that worked in multiplayer. But then it didn't have online pickup multiplayer.

Re:Cheating

[GORby_]

Hmm, you must be Steve Jobs...
... if you'd like for PC's to be like iPhones!

Re:Cheating

[Xest]

Actually model hacks and wallhacks potentially are or at least were possible with modded systems.

Unless things have changed, which is quite possible, the XBox 360 only checked the validity of a games executable code and not content, content checking is game specific so all the XBox can do is check the executable code is valid and let the executable check the content. The issue is, lots of developers haven't done this, so on a system with a modded optical drive, you could insert a disk that had modified textures/models/maps on. This included increasing the size of models so that they were easier to see- i.e. you could stretch their belly so you'd see it sticking out round a corner when you otherwise wouldn't have. I believe this was successfully pulled off against the first Gears of War game.

But of course, providing game developers check the content with the executable this isn't a problem, but most importantly, the real place the XBox 360 shines is that you have none of the really stupidly annoying cheats like aimbots, radar and so forth because these require code level modifications.

This is why I prefer gaming on the XBox 360- it's really a closed platform, whilst the PC (and PS3 now it would seem!) are open platforms, which makes them great for things like ripping through stupid DRM to access content you've paid for without problem using cracks and so forth, but not so great for gaming because these platforms are just inherently more vulnerable to cheating for the very fact they are open.

So yeah, for me, it's closed platform for gaming, open platform for everything else, that way you get the best of both worlds, rather than having to suffer the disadvantages from just trying to do everything on either one or the other.

Re:Cheating

[Urza9814]

You know, everyone always uses MMOs as an example of a game where you can't have any other servers - but guess what? You can. There are THOUSANDS of alternate servers out there for World of Warcraft. Most of them free (i.e. you don't have to pay any monthly fees to Blizz or to the server.) And there's very easy to set up. I mean obviously they're not as easy as just selecting another server - this is a game that intended to only have official servers. But it's a matter of opening a config file and changing two lines - the only two lines in that file. Anyone can do it. And Blizzard has made no attempts to stop it. So why don't more games go this route?

Re:Cheating

[kyrre]

The reason cheating is a problem is because we are forced to play on the vendor's network,

There are quite a few Playstation 3 games that support LAN-play. You can also run the PS3 as a dedicated server in many games. Warhawk and Unreal 3 support both options. There are more games like this. Sony is not responsible for what publishers do regarding dedicated and LAN support. The PS3 allow it. I do not know about Xbox but I think you can do LAN there as well.

Re:Cheating

[RogueyWon]

Because while these servers exist, they aren't very popular. The user-base of the average 3rd-party server is, as I understand it, less than 100. Most WoW players are aware of them... and make the decision to steer well clear and stick with the better resourced, better administered official servers. If anything, I'd take the "open" WoW servers as an example that the third-party server model just doesn't work for MMOs.

There may be a market for middlingly-multiplayer (say... up to 40 people) persistent world games with third party servers (like the old MUDs, but updated for the modern age). But I'm talking here about the kind of thing that Neverwinter Nights has made a nod towards in the past with some of its more ambitious modules, not something on the scale of WoW.

Re:Cheating

[kyrre]

You could use PhyreEngine and a debug PS3. I think they cost about twice that of a normal PS3.

Re:Cheating

[nxtw]

Microsoft has been banning Xbox 360s for years.

The process for "fixing" a banned Xbox 360 console involves cloning the NVRAM from another Xbox 360. That's hardly working around a ban.

Re:Cheating

[Sique]

It reduces them to one per driver at a maximum.

Re:Cheating

[terjeber]

In the long run it will, for sure. As the number of drivers on the road approaches zero, so does the number of accidents. I think zapping them is a great idea, but I'll stay off the roads until the practice has had its full effect and there is about 800 people left in the US.

Re:Cheating

[ehrichweiss]

Mod parent up! I was going to say the same thing. I hadn't heard of a workaround and upon reading the links realized it was the same as I'd read before: you're cloning a non-banned box so that *it* gets the chance to be banned soon.

Re:Cheating

[MikeBabcock]

You haven't played the PS3 much have you? "The vendor's network" is free and always available in this case, plus games like Warhawk have both LAN and dedicated server options built-in.

Sony allows game makers to do things with their network that Microsoft doesn't, or makes difficult. Don't give them a hard time on this or you're just barking up the wrong tree.

Re:Cheating

[MikeBabcock]

I wish I could stamp "douchebag" on the forehead of everyone who brings up smartphones as though they're some kind of new evil. I've driven behind plenty of people reading books, doing makeup, curling their hair and even eating soup (with two hands).

The problem isn't phones, the problem is people driving stupidly. Stop it with the moronic rants about cell phones already.

Re:Cheating

[Aphoxema]

And I'd like to keep it that way.

You should know as well as anyone else that this was inevitable and it's actually just remarkable that it took as long as it did.

The problem you face isn't cheating itself or direct-memory access; what you need are people you can trust to play with fairly.

Re:Cheating

[MikeBabcock]

Its also worth pointing out that the PS3 will even let me rip a CD down to high quality AAC from its drive and then copy it onto my MP3 player or a USB stick. They're not exactly being evil here.

Re:Cheating

[MikeBabcock]

Transcoding? The PS3 has full official WMV and DivX support. While sure it won't play Matroska, its pretty capable of playing almost anything I throw at it without transcoding.

Re:Cheating

[thePowerOfGrayskull]

While both PS3 and 360 have reasonable video playback features, we all know they come nowhere near the power of XBMC and similar solutions. If you only want one device under your television and would prefer not converting/transcoding everything, this hack might well end up being very useful.

Mediatomb + Netflix instant watch disc + PlayOn (for Hulu). Is there conversion occurring behind the scenes? Probably. Is it something that affects you? Not in my experience. With the combination above -- and playon and mediatomb running on VMs -- I'm dropping my cable subscription to basic this month and saving about $1000/yr.

However, that said I do agree with you - there's definitely more uses for hacking the PS3 than cheating/pirating. But the unfortunate truth is that cheat/pirate will comprise a lot of what it gets used for.

Re:Cheating

[Pojut]

It won't play all my .mov files of the Ctrl Alt Del animated series...I know I know, I'm just sayin' :-)

Re:Cheating

[Tikkun]

I guess the main reason for this will be so you can play pirated games. Homebrew is already possible on PS3 and lets not kid ourselves, piracy is always what these things are mostly used for.

Piracy on a system lets you know that there are 3rd party developers working on a system. It's like a dial tone.

Re:Cheating

[acohen1]

I keep my content on a PC in another room and let that transcode it on-the-fly when a choose the content through the XMB. Works with multiple audio tracks, embedded and external subs, and whatnot. http://code.google.com/p/ps3mediaserver/downloads/list

Re:Cheating

[NFN_NLN]

I guess the main reason for this will be so you can play pirated games. Homebrew is already possible on PS3 and lets not kid ourselves, piracy is always what these things are mostly used for.

This may be true but I have a hacked original XBOX and I pretty much just use it for XMBC. That old system is still hands down the best media player for the money. I'm already partially erect just thinking about the idea of XBMC for PS3... finally 1080p!

Re:Cheating

[StormyWeather]

On my iphone I use the jailbreak to put intelliscreen on my lock screen so I get most of what i need without going anywhere, tethering, skinning it the way I want it, putting an extra row of icons on each page, a flashlight app that actually increases the brightness of the screen (only flashlight app that doesn't SUCK on the iphone), and a few other niceties.

I hacked my wii after my kids destroyed my super mario game, and they almost got my brand new final fantasy game too. Also running my games off USB seems nicer to me in a lot of ways, but I will note that I haven't actually used the hack to play a backed up game yet.

Re:Cheating

[BlueKitties]

Bologna, PS3/360 may not have as many "hackers," but it sure as hell has a lot of cheaters. Go play ModernWarfare-2 and tell me how many Nuke-Boosters you see on XBLive. Unfortunately, you don't need to explicitly alter software to exploit a game, the makers leave more than enough room for people to do annoying crap.

Re:Cheating

[ninjakoala]

It plays a fair bit - just like the 360. Just saying neither one is perfect. I certainly need transcoding now and then.

Re:Cheating

[metamatic]

Homebrew is already possible on PS3 and lets not kid ourselves, piracy is always what these things are mostly used for.

It is? I thought the existing homebrew solutions all relied on putting Linux on the PS3, which isn't supported with the current PS3 Slim.

Re:Cheating

[raburton]

For example 360 hack isn't the same, you can't run your own code or modify memory on it - it merely allows you to play pirat^H^H^H^H^H backups. This will be a lot more serious hack.

Not true. The 360 has been hacked wide open. You can run your own code or do pretty much anything with it. The vulnerability has already been patched by MS so only boxes made before about July 2009 (and also not updated since) can be hacked, but there must be millions of them about (I've got 2 right here next to me). Obviously MS can detect it if you play online and you'll get banned from their service, Sony will presumably be able to do the same.

Re:Cheating

[toastar]

Mod this up,

So This hack will mean my linux install won't be crippled to only access half the memory?

Re:Cheating

[Feanturi]

Someone should have told your parents that babies do not thrive when one repeatedly drops them on their head. Oh well.

Re:Cheating

[elfprince13]

I'm fairly sure both of those are sound options....

Re:Cheating

[Idiomatick]

I don't think you realize just how bad smart phone users are at driving. At least they can only cause 1 accident while unconscious.

Re:Cheating

[cheftw]

I understand that it would be unpleasant, but why would AC's parents being dropped on their respective heads affect his wellbeing?

Re:Cheating

[TheUser0x58]

Then you can alter the packet data to your heart's content.

Well, that form of cheating can be trivially prevented with basic cryptography. There are other data verification steps (various forms of sanity checking) typically done on the server end as well.

Re:Cheating

[Skuld-Chan]

The other thing about 3rd party servers is they are partial implementations. The ones I've messed with (like trinity) - not a single boss behaved properly (the encounter wasn't anything like the one Blizzard provides) there were data issues (lost items, non working and missing items) a lot of the spells didn't work properly - and as a consequence there's no balance - not even in any dungeon.

I had a friend back in the day that was boasting his paladin was single healing Blackwing Lair - anyone who's played WoW knows (when it was launched) this was a pound me in the arse 40 man raid that you brought 10-15+ healers to. This didn't make sense until he told me he was playing on some 3rd party server...

Same with L2 - nothing is 100% correct.

Re:Cheating

[PopeRatzo]

However the simple fact is that cheating is less prevalent in games which use a centralised server system

You miss my point.

I'm saying that cheating isn't the reason Sony and Microsoft lock their systems down and don't want anyone mucking about in their hardware.

In fact, I'd say that it has nothing at all to do with cheating. They don't care about cheating.

Re:Cheating

[GasparGMSwordsman]

The effect would be delayed a bit, but after the first 6 months accidents would be down by a whole lot. Also I would suggest investing in your local funeral home...

Re:Cheating

[tsm1mt]

I'd like full access not for piracy or cheating (though running a NES or Intellivision emulator would be cool) but to run MythTV properly on it. The "yes, we let you run Linux" install cripples the graphics subsystem (and is not an option on the newest PS3s) such that my fancy PS3 running MythTV can't do better than Standard Def shows. I have to resort to using UPNP to watch my HD captures (with a PC HDTV5500) and the native PS3 interface just isn't as nice as running MythFrontend. The reason Sony doesn't want us to have access to the graphics chipset.. well, why license a game when you can sell it to run on the powerful (and sold at a loss) PS3 hardware and run the game under Linux? I use my old Xbox for a front end most days - it handles SD content just fine, and works much better than the PS3. I just have to fire up the PS3 when it's time to watch an HD capture.

Re:Cheating

[jones_supa]

Yes because zapping the driver into unconsciousness while he is driving at 65mph on the highway will reduce accidents.

And that, kids, was the sound of a joke dying.

Nah, it was a meta-joke.

Re:Cheating

[TeknoHog]

So This hack will mean my linux install won't be crippled to only access half the memory?

AFAIK, you can already access the whole of the video memory, even though you cannot use the GPU. It is not usable as plain RAM, but you can use it as a fast swap device. This is actually an old Linux trick, but due to the fixed configuration it has been made a little easier on the PS3.

(I don't have a PS3, but I have played around with the same trick on regular x86 machines.)

Re:Cheating

[TeknoHog]

So far you couldn't use the GPU and you where only using a small part of the CPU processing power. Now imagine having this great multiprocessor architecture completely unlocked for you to program it. These are great news.

AFAIK, with Linux (or any other "Other OS") you can use the PPU and six SPUs. The seventh SPU is reserved for the hypervisor, so not a huge difference there. Some scientists are already using clusters of PS3 for their processing power.

I guess the typical problem with Linux on a PS3 is that only few programs are optimized for the SPUs. The PPU, on the other hand, is a regular PowerPC so there is already plenty of software for it.

Re:Cheating

[pinkj]

Change woman to n****r and see if that helps you understand how fucked up and offensive this "joke" is.

Well, in fairness, I'm sure most slashdotters have had more interaction with black people than women. The "Funny" modders should be pitied more than scolded really.

Re:Cheating

[CronoCloud]

There is no european import tax on consoles...not anymore. There was, but it went away very early in the PS2's life, pre Linux on the PS2 in fact.

Re:Cheating

[CronoCloud]

Yep, that trick is supported in YDL 6.1 and 6.2

[CronoCloud@mideel ~]$ sudo /sbin/swapon -s
Filename Type Size Used Priority
/dev/ps3da3 partition 522104 0 -1
/dev/ps3vram partition 241656 25756 1

Re:Cheating

[drkim]

Actually, your car already has a lot of this stuff:

It 'dings' if you don't use your belt. It won't start if you don't have the key. Some GPS can't be interacted with when you're moving.

Microsoft already checks for pirate OS, Google assumes a "Moderate" safe search on images.

A lot of things are there to "protect us from ourselves."

Google is even coming out with an app to keep you from "drunk texting" (Your boss! Your ex! )

Re:Cheating

[Trepidity]

Are white males between the ages of 16 and 35 really involved in accidents at a higher rate than males of other races in the same age range?

Re:Cheating

[deek]

For me, the main reason why I'd like a hacked PS3 is to:

* Play PAL DVDs. Currently, I can't even play Region 0 DVDs if they're in PAL.

* Play import PS2 games. I have an older version of the PS3, which has PS2 hardware built in. I'd like to play some European and Japanese titles from my PS2 library. Sure, I can use my PS2 for that, but I'd prefer to keep my AV devices to a minimum. Plus, the PS3 upscales PS2 titles, so they look better on a HD screen.

* Use Linux with full GPU access. Being able to run Linux on my PS3 is nice, and quite handy in some situations. Being able to fully use the GPU would open up a whole range of new uses for it.

  Cheating? Piracy? Not really interested. I just want to use my PS3 to its full abilities. Currently, Sony are deliberately holding it back. That irks me. A hack would be most welcome.

Re:Cheating

[ildon]

If companies were so concerned about "cheating" in games, why do they build cheat codes into games?

I realize a dozen people have beaten me to the punch on this but some comments are so stupid they just have to be responded to multiple times.

What the fuck? Seriously, what the fuck? When you're playing a single player game, the only limit to what is considered cheating is what you consider to be cheating, because you're only playing against yourself. It literally has zero effect on anyone else if you complete Doom with god mode on the entire game.

This is completely different than playing multiplayer games, where you have to have an agreed-upon set of rules beforehand, usually determined by a third party (the game designer) because you are playing against other people who may or may not agree with you as to what constitutes cheating or, for more complex games, what the "game" itself even is. When you cheat in multiplayer games, it directly affects the enjoyment of the game for other people. Almost universally in a negative fashion.

I'm REALLY hoping you were just trolling and aren't actually this fucking stupid.

Re:Cheating

[djnforce9]

Homebrew is extremely limited though as Sony does not give you full access to at least the GPU (and probably other aspects of the hardware). If the PS3 gets FULLY hacked, then developers can now use the full horsepower of the PS3 which is excellent news to them (especially those porting Linux over which already runs but once again, you can't use any of the advanced GUI features with the GPU locked down the way it is).

Sony probably only locked down the PS3 in the first place to prevent piracy and to make sure people don't release unlicensed games.

Re:Cheating

[AlphaBit]

PS3 otherOS disables the "Reality Synthesizer" and provides a 2D framebuffer instead, requiring homebrew developers to run their 3D graphics engines entirely on the cell. The cell is easily powerful enough to do this, but it'd be nice to have the power to write fast code that also has amazing graphics.

^H? What are you using to post, lynx?

I really want XBMC-HD for PS3

[AbRASiON]

This whole DLNA (DNLA?) rubbish is gross, it's so backwards.
I don't want to transcode, I just want a damned good media centre (and a gaming machine!) the XBMC devs had started considering work on the PS3 a long time ago but then Sony closed the loophole to access the video card under linux (or rather accelerated mode?) so it was scrapped.

The PS3 is a fantastic chunk of hardware and while I'd really rather not get banned from their system as I have no intention (or time anymore) to pirate games, I'd love to see the machine play back stuff a bit better. (it does fairly well now but it's nothing on XBMC)
The machine has 256mb of system ram, does 1080p output, optical output, 7.1 dolby hardware, wifi, hard disk, USB 2.0, gigabit networking - it's more than enough to do HD XBMC.
Fingers crossed in 12 to 18 months time there's some kind of news.

Re:I really want XBMC-HD for PS3

[sopssa]

I know it isn't really the same, but those looking for one, mkv2vob (PS3 Video Converter) is a really nice tool to convert 720p mkv files to format that PS3 supports. Usually you don't even need to transcode, so it takes like 1 minute per video file.

avi/xvid files work directly.

To stream them from computer, TVersity is the best one.

Once you get those set up, it's actually quite nice and convenient. PS3 software and menu is actually really nice for media center, a lot better than 360's. Again not probably the same as XBMC, but it's pretty convenient anyway.

Re:I really want XBMC-HD for PS3

[alnya]

I dont want to start a Holy war or anything, but PS3 Media Server is a million times better than TVersity (which many people report having problems wtih it's stability etc)

YMMV of course

Re:I really want XBMC-HD for PS3

[TheBiGW]

This already exists. XBMC has been ported to Windows, MacOS and Linux. A small nettop like the Asrock ION 330 is smaller and quieter than either the XBox 360 or the PS3 and is more than capable of playing back high def content.

Re:I really want XBMC-HD for PS3

[Nursie]

I've had lots of luck with MediaTomb, and if you need to set up transcoding-on-the-fly for unsupported formats then you can.

Re:I really want XBMC-HD for PS3

[MrNemesis]

Mods on crack, parent is not offtopic.

I too was saddened when I found out that the supposedly Linux-friendly PS3 was going to be hypervisored up to the wazoo - I've been a Sony boycotter for years but I was seriously considering forgiving them if I got a reasonably flexible machine that would run my beloved Myth.

Alas, it didn't and when XBMC ported itself to everything and became seven kinds of awesome the disparity between the various "multimedia frontend" attempts on current-gen consoles and your plain jane x86 box running XBMC, XBMC wins on every front. Including, IMHO, setting the thing up in the first place.

Hopefully some enterprising hardware hackers will endeavour to get XBMC and friends running on PS3 (although how well it'll run on PPC remains to be seen), but probably not before all those Boxee units start appearing. Way to miss the bandwagon again Sony!

Re:I really want XBMC-HD for PS3

[sopssa]

That does actually look nice and seems it supports loading .sub/.srt subtitle files too. Thanks, gotta check it out!

Re:I really want XBMC-HD for PS3

[richy freeway]

I have exactly that setup. The Asrock box is a fantastic little bit of kit and it runs XBMC like a dream.

Re:I really want XBMC-HD for PS3

[AbRASiON]

I bet the Asrock is AWESOME! However I don't see an Asrock in my loungeroom.
I see a PS2, PS3, XB1 and XB360 - the XB1 was one of the best electronics purchases I've made in my lifetime, incredible little machine.
I'd love to see the PS3 get the same kind of longetivity.

Re:I really want XBMC-HD for PS3

[AbRASiON]

Don't worry, you won't start a holy war.
The only people who still use TVersity, haven't heard of PS3 media server.
Mein Gott is TVersity an ugly clunky piece of shit. PS3MC 'just works'

Re:I really want XBMC-HD for PS3

[Anonymous Coward]

PMS works on Linux too - might not matter for some, but it's a killer feature for me.

Re:I really want XBMC-HD for PS3

[Vanderhoth]

You rock so hard. I've been using TVersity under windows because I couldn't find a good Media server to run under Linux. I can't wait to get home to try this out.

Re:I really want XBMC-HD for PS3

[jagsta]

Yeah I had pretty good mileage from mediatomb too for a while, but things which PS3 media server does persuaded me to swap, and I haven't been back since.

One _really_ useful feature of PS3 media server which mediatomb can't currently match is the ability to seek, pause etc in a transcoded stream. This is not possible with mediatomb and that's a pain in the ass if you need to take a break when you're watching a movie.

Re:I really want XBMC-HD for PS3

[PopeRatzo]

I see a PS2, PS3, XB1 and XB360

Can I come over?

I'll bring the cheesy poofs and a six-pack of Yuengling.

Re:I really want XBMC-HD for PS3

[Fraggy_the_undead]

PMS works on Linux too [...]

A cranky Linux? God help us.

Re:I really want XBMC-HD for PS3

[Troed]

... and Mac

Re:I really want XBMC-HD for PS3

[xtracto]

Geez, I would conform if the PS3 could play PAL DVDs!

There I was, visiting my brother. At his home he has the PS3 with a big LCD screen and whatnot. Unfortunately for me, when I try playing a PAL DVD which I bought in Europe (nope, no NTSC version available at all), the damn thing won't play it. LOL even my Wii can play NTSC/PAL DVDs...

I hope that this crack leads to, as you say, a port of HBMC or any other media player that fixes PS3 broken software.

Re:I really want XBMC-HD for PS3

[tom17]

PMS is the awesome.

It's very 'wife friendly'. 99% of stuff just plays.

It's running on an ubuntu server with a very old Core2Duo which can keep up with anything I have thrown at it yet (just), although I am thinking of getting a faster Core2Quad upgrade so that ffwd & rew on live-transcoded titles is more responsive.

Tom...

Re:I really want XBMC-HD for PS3

[kwandar]

The fix (at least in my case) to deal with my wife's PAL movies, was to rip them to a home server as MP4, and then play on the big LCD through the PS3.

Re:I really want XBMC-HD for PS3

[MikeBabcock]

I use Mediatomb personally, for streaming from multiple Linux PCs to my PS3. All of them show up nicely under the Video and Music options in the XMB. It even supports real-time transcoding for my FLAC music.

Re:I really want XBMC-HD for PS3

[mullens101]

I've been using mediatomb for quite a while and love it. Once the import scripts are customized to really categorize music, movies and photos well, It's great. I have movies sorted by mature and family then either alphabetically or by genre. To me, Ubuntu, MediaTomb, Handbrake, K9Copy, and Atomic Parsley (with a custom GUI I've written) are a great setup. I now have movies in multiple genres and sorted by family versus mature based upon metadata tags while being stored in a normal and easily navigable directory structure. DVD->K9Copy->Handbrake->AtomicParsley->MediaTomb->PS3 = exactly what I need. Oh, and for $150, I got a WD HD Live TV box for another TV and it works just as well as the PS3 for movie/media playback.

Re:I really want XBMC-HD for PS3

[mullens101]

There's a good PA Beer drinker ... Yuengling ROCKS! Funny, a friend in Canada keeps asking if we can bring that Chinese beer when we visit (Ying-Ling).

Re:I really want XBMC-HD for PS3

[delinear]

I've yet to see a media solution that I liked as much as XBMC back on the original XBOX (in the end I got a Popcorn Hour for the living room but I still keep the Mk1 modded XBOX in the bedroom for XBMC and aside from lack of HD it does just as good a job for something I installed back around 2003. The first console manufacturer to do something half as good out of the box will get my undying support - forget trying to win the war for the living room, THIS is it. Do this and you can DRM your games to hell and back, I'll still buy your system.

Re:I really want XBMC-HD for PS3

[acohen1]

Theres already a discussion of PS3 media server. I share my dvd-rom on my pc and pop PAL dvds in there and let it transcode them. I agree its totally lame that the function is not built in though, especially when its outputting HDMI I don't see why a TV that can handle true 24fps shouldnt be able to do PAL at 25.

Re:I really want XBMC-HD for PS3

[Scarumanga]

Uhh...What happened to just using Windows 7 to stream media??? It works without flaws, know your formats, mkv2vob converts all your mkv's into a ps3 format....which are streamed using WMP12's media sharing ability. For formats that don't work....there are such things called RipBot264 to convert files into a h264 MP4 container with AAC-LC 5.1 audio in just a few hours. I seriously have never had any issue with the default media sharing built into Windows 7, i can honestly say it is the best thing since sliced bread.

Re:I really want XBMC-HD for PS3

[tom17]

I can't expect my wife to mess around converting every video she wants to watch, and why would I even want to do that myself given that PMS will do it for me on the fly?

Also, how can I use Windows 7's features if I do not have (or want) Windows 7?

Re:I really want XBMC-HD for PS3

[Seq]

Have you compared this with Mediatomb? I'm currently using that, and I didn't find any real comparisons between the two from a quick google search.

Re:I really want XBMC-HD for PS3

[BenBenBen]

Use an old AppleTV with the Mini-PCI hardware HD video decoder one of the XBMX devs and Broadcom developed.

1080P HTPC for around $200 in a very, very nice form factor.

I rarely get to say this...

[starbugs]

But will it run Linux?

No, seriously,
I rarely play games, and if I do - they're on a Mac.

The only appeal of the PS3 to me is programming the Cell processor, I was hoping to get into that later this year.
WTF did Sony discontinue support for Linux in the new PS3?

Re:I rarely get to say this...

[dread]

Why? To reduce cost and stay competetive in a highly price sensitive market? I'm pretty sure they knew exactly why they did it.

Re:I rarely get to say this...

[Amanieu]

Probably because they lose money on each PS3 sold, hoping to catch up with game sales. So people who use their console for something other than games cause them to lose money.

Re:I rarely get to say this...

[sopssa]

You can probably still find an old used PS3 with Other OS support, maybe quite cheaply too.

Re:I rarely get to say this...

[Etylowy]

Yes it will and you will be no longer limited in terms what hardware you access (other os option limited you to less than 15% of raw hw power).

WTF did Sony discontinue support for Linux in the new PS3?

Being able to run linux wasn't a strong enough selling point to justify the cost - thus ps3 slim no longer has this option.

Re:I rarely get to say this...

[SenseiLeNoir]

erm, I have seen this comment, time and time again, the hyper visor only really limits GPU access. the Cell has the same full access that under Linux that games have. (one SPU reverved for the System, remaining 6 SPUs and core available for Linux)

Re:I rarely get to say this...

[muffen]

Not sure where you live but where I am, the old PS3 goes for more money then the new slim one, simply because it also allows you to play PS2 games (slim does not).
Sure you can find the odd cheap one off Ebay etc, but its still a big hassle, that is if you get one at all.

I have mixed feelings about the hack, only time will tell if its good or bad.
If it really works without any modchip then it does bring the thoughts to the SEGA Dreamcast, awesome machine but seriously flawed copyprotection.

Re:I rarely get to say this...

[tepples]

the hyper visor only really limits GPU access.

For one thing, it also limits CPU access on models that are still sold new because Sony cut Other OS support to save pennies. For another, fully half the RAM is connected to the GPU.

Re:I rarely get to say this...

[betterunixthanunix]

You also lose 256MB (of 512) of the system's RAM to the hyperviser. That SPE matters. And the graphics card might matter too, depending on what you are doing. This hack is a godsend for some of us, who have been pissed about the ridiculous, unnecessary hyperviser for a long time now.

Re:I rarely get to say this...

[SenseiLeNoir]

a) The other OS function was ONLY cut from the Slim version. Fat versions still have it, and its still available on firmware updates for the fat version. Nevertheless, how you say it limits CPU does not make sense, as you do get the same CPU cores, that native PS3 games get IF you run other OS (1 general dual threaded PPU, and 6 SPUs, with 1 being reserved for the system, same as for native ps3 games). If you have a slim PS3, you cannot get other OS anyway

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_on_the_PlayStation_3

b) the other half of the RAM used by the GPU CAN be accessed by Linux too, either as a framebuffer, or as swap memory.

Re:I rarely get to say this...

[LazyBoot]

There's also the later fat ones that don't play ps2 games but still have the other-os feature...

Errr - NO! Hom,ebrew not already possible.

[Nursie]

You can't access some of the hardware, particularly the GFX from an "Other OS" and the new slim models don't even support the Other OS option, so no, this is not just for cheating and piracy and there is no current way to run homebrew well.

We can even run linux better in a hacked system as currently the graphics performance is pretty dreadful. There is far more to life than piracy and cheating. I welcome this development.

Helll, I'd welcome it even if there were few to no forseeable applications, just the opening up of a new computer platform...

Re:Errr - NO! Hom,ebrew not already possible.

[Nikker]

Hell a box like that with Linux and Cedega you would have a pretty cheap kick ass HTPC that could run a few PC games as well. Video transcoding, ripping, HDMI, ability to play almost any format of audio/video, really good processing power for the price, maybe I should get a job selling these babies. At the end of the day Sony is pissed because of their narrow minded approach that their game sales will tank but if enough of these things are hooked up to enough TV sets they will have a new opportunity maybe even roll their own OS that people actually want to use. Sony can put a pretty penny into R&D for a new OS / UI that could be pretty enough and they can sell you bits and bytes all day long. This is really what evolution/revolution is all about, sometimes they drag us kicking and screaming sometimes we do the same to them.

Re:Errr - NO! Hom,ebrew not already possible.

[tius]

I compile and run some computational codes under Linux on my PS3 and I for one would be much happier if disk and network access didn't have to go through the hypervisor. I strongly suspect that performance would increase.

RSX in Linux?

[Arakageeta]

Linux on PS3 for non-scientific work has been a disappointing experience. There is very little code out there that uses the SPUs (and the PPU stinks for general purpose computing) and the hypervisor prevents hardware accelerated graphics.

While the first issue has to do with the community, the second is a restriction imposed by Sony. Perhaps this hack will make it possible to use the RSX (PS3's hardware graphics) in Linux? Maybe then an SNES emulator will run better on a PS3 than a second-gen iMac.

What is the Linux community's willingness to embrace a hack such as this?

Re:RSX in Linux?

[Anonymous Coward]

The Linux community can't touch this with a 10 foot pole, and that's a good thing. The Linux community would rather avoid the legal grey area that is involved with no-copyright-restriction. Let someone else do the dirty work.

But that doesn't really matter. The "scene" will be able to take full use of this hack. And the best part is that the scene is free to use whatever code they feel like. If that means quality open-source code ported to the PS3, then so be it. It wouldn't be the first time.

*note* laughing out loud at captcha: decrypts

Re:RSX in Linux?

[Nursie]

What do you mean by the linux community?

I agree that the likes of redhat probably won't support this any time soon. But Debian? Gentoo? Or a community like xbox-linux could spring up.
Some of the linux community are probably quite excited by this.

Re:RSX in Linux?

[Aladrin]

You say 'linux community' like it's a corporation. The 'linux community' doesn't have an opinion on -anything-. Individual members of the community have the full range of opinions.

Re:RSX in Linux?

[daid303]

Like they didn't touch the GC/Wii after it got hacked: http://www.gc-linux.org/wiki/Main_Page ?

Hack leaked, reprinted here

[noidentity]

The hack apparently involves pressing up, down, left, right, X, and O in pairs.

Re:Hack leaked, reprinted here

[Raxxon]

Sadly the PS[X,2,3] never let you access the DULLARD cheat code given the lack of lettered buttons...

Re:Hack leaked, reprinted here

[tepples]

"Lack of lettered buttons"? They're all lettered. I see a Greek delta, an omicron or O, a chi or X, and a katakana ro. But then I also see an X, a box (square), and 360 degrees (circle).

Re:Hack leaked, reprinted here

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, the square was supposed to be the Infinity symbol, but the plant that prints the buttons doesn't have the right font installed, so it keeps showing up as a square instead.

Re:Hack leaked, reprinted here

[noidentity]

Actually, the square was supposed to be the Infinity symbol, but the plant that prints the buttons doesn't have the right font installed, so it keeps showing up as a square instead.

Oh crap, I actually spent a few minutes trying to find confirmation of this, until I realized the joke. Haha.

Blame Sony, not the hacker

[Opportunist]

Before anyone goes "oh, this is only so people can play copies and cheat".

Read the other comments. See what people would like out of their PS3. They want to do "real" homebrew software, with full hardware access instead of the castrated version Sony "allows". They want to use their PS3 as a Media Center, something that's simply impossible with the current setup.

Give the people what they want and they will not crack your hardware open. Sure, some will do it for the "going to the moon" reason (it's there, and we can), but most will want their box to do what they want to do. If the box does it, no hacking will happen.

I modded my old XBox. Why? Because I wanted to run XBMC. It wanted a way to stream my movies on my HD to my TV easily. The XBox was there, a TV card for my computer wasn't (the SVideo output was really crappy), so it was a no brainer that I'd want my XBox which had logically a good TV compatible output to do the trick. It didn't do it out of the box, so it was modded. Oddly, I never bought a single game ever since, wonder why that could be...

Bottom line, when people "hack" a platform, they will of course strip all copy restriction as well, simply because it limits the ability of the box and it's possible. If you want to keep your users from hacking their box, give the box any ability your users might want to get out of it.

Re:Blame Sony, not the hacker

[DrXym]

I'm sure some people would like to run homebrew on a PS3 just like they want to run homebrew on a DS or PSP. But these people are a tiny fraction compared to what the modded firmware would mostly be used for - piracy.

I think if Sony were smart (and it doesn't happen often), they'll bring back Linux on the PS3 and open up the GPU a bit more. Linux is perfectly adequate for homebrew applications while still preventing users from running pirated games. If they can tell homebrewers apart from pirates they have a far better chance of going after the latter.

Re:Blame Sony, not the hacker

[Sockatume]

They want to use their PS3 as a Media Center, something that's simply impossible with the current setup.

I'd argue that the PS3's broad format support and network share support makes it into a pretty good media box, probably intentionally to remove the incentive you describe for people to hack their machines.

Re:Blame Sony, not the hacker

[CubicleView]

"give the box any ability your users might want to get out of it"

that sounds great in theory, but only if you ignore the users that would want some sort of ps3/ fleshlight hybrid, ick.

Re:Blame Sony, not the hacker

[terjeber]

They want to use their PS3 as a Media Center, something that's simply impossible with the current setup

Could you elaborate please? Do we have different takes on what a Media Center is? I do believe my PS3 is currently functioning as a Media Center, doing video, images and music etc. Did I miss something?

Re:Blame Sony, not the hacker

[mr exploiter]

This level of spin remind me of fox news. People want their console hacked to play warez games, or they want a console that can't be hacked so there are no online cheaters.

Re:Blame Sony, not the hacker

[NFN_NLN]

They want to use their PS3 as a Media Center, something that's simply impossible with the current setup

Could you elaborate please? Do we have different takes on what a Media Center is? I do believe my PS3 is currently functioning as a Media Center, doing video, images and music etc. Did I miss something?

Wow, you sound like a real power-user gramps. Obviously you've never experienced a real media center system like XBMC. I want CIFS/NFS support, UPnP just blows. I want full codec support, using another machine to transcode is a complete waste of resources. I have a collection of videos organized with plots summaries and box covers I want to show up on the selection screen. I would like streaming content; video and internet radio. Then take all this and leave an open skinable system!

Re:Blame Sony, not the hacker

[Sockatume]

True, but the same streams play fine in a .vob container.

Re:Blame Sony, not the hacker

[Scarumanga]

The PS3 actually works amazingly well with Windows 7 media sharing ability, why someone would want to go to such lengths as to use a 3rd party app just blows me away. Microsoft sure went all out when it comes to the media sharing in Win7, its flawless IMO, there's no slowdowns, refreshing the media library and adding new files takes seconds in WMP12. Pretty much every format that the PS3 supports will play back with out any issues...I use mkv2vob for my mkv's and for anything that isn't an mkv and does not happen to play on the PS3, i just use RipBot264 and make a h264 MP4 file. I have found that 3rd party apps only use up ram, slow shit down and sometimes don't work properly at all. Win7+WMP12 seem to be perfect for sharing media to the PS3 and the 360 (i own both consoles).

Re:Blame Sony, not the hacker

[Opportunist]

Huh? How is that necessary anymore? I didn't really research it, but are there no modchips for the PS3 already that do that trick? Would be the first console where there ain't no such tools to play rips.

Re:Blame Sony, not the hacker

[terjeber]

Sigh. You studs, your attitude and your 30 seconds maximum intercourse. I was just curious dude. Get over your self.

Re:Blame Sony, not the hacker

[mr exploiter]

Well no there are not. That's why this is important, because it opens the possibility to defeat DRM.

Re:Blame Sony, not the hacker

[Xest]

I both agree and disagree with you.

I disagree, because there are a lot of people- the vast majority of owners I would wager, who don't want their consoles to be open platforms due to the inevitable influx of cheating online. It's also the case that even now Sony is supposedly making a loss on the console with the hope of making it up on games, but of course if people buy a console and just pirate the games then the price of the console has to go up to compensate meaning people aren't getting high end hardware subsidised by games anymore.

But, I also agree, because as you say, you can do some really cool shit with console hardware when you have open access. So I wonder then, perhaps the solution would be for console manufacturers to release open versions of their system, kind of like the old Net Yaroze? It would have to come at a slightly higher price due to not being game subsidised, but of course, it'd still be good for manufacturers as it would bring per-unit price down for the processor and so forth.

I suspect it wont happen though as, let's be realistic, people would still hack the closed version of the console because piracy really is the main driving force at the end of the day 90% of the time, and having an open version of the hardware out there may provide too many clues to break the closed version.

I can see why manufacturers don't open up their systems more and I'm inclined to agree with them- I much prefer online console gaming nowadays because I know I'm playing on an even footing, but similarly I think you're right, homebrew is very cool, often providing things that aren't officially available that make the system better. Being able to have an MSN client on my DS for example was pretty awesome.

Re:Blame Sony, not the hacker

[Opportunist]

Will not work. What will happen? The same what happened to hardware and overclocking. Hardware manufacturers have been selling their not quite 100% stable versions of hardware cheaper, at lower clock speeds, with some pipes that didn't survive the tests disabled. What did the customers do? Buy the cheap versions, reenable the disabled pipes and clock their CPUs at the nominal speeds. Sure, it killed warranty and often the chip too, but it meant you get the full speed at lower price. And by the time the CPU finally fries for good, the full speed version costs much less, saving you money in the long run.

I doubt this would not happen if you sold fully functional hardware at lower price if the only difference is that the cheaper version is "locked".

Re:Blame Sony, not the hacker

[Opportunist]

Possibly so, but it also means that I do not buy movies. Why? Because I invariably keep losing or misplacing media and I cannot transfer that movie easily to my server where I'd find it again. So I don't buy the movie in the first place.

You have it completely right

[drinkypoo]

If I could use the full capabilities of the PS3 in Linux, I'd have bought one long since. If I could have XBMC with Blu-Ray support running on the PS3's OS, likewise. I do have an Xbox 360 even though you can't do these things, but I bought it used. I'd likely buy a new PS3; I'd certainly want a slim one.

Re:You have it completely right

[Narishma]

Sony doesn't really care about all of that. They only care if you buy PS3 games as everything else will lose them money. If you buy a PS3 and use it as a computer or HTPC or whatever, they lose money on it. Only by selling games for it do they actually make money.

Re:You have it completely right

[drinkypoo]

Only by selling games for it do they actually make money.

I bought a used Xbox to use it for a media center, and would up buying half a dozen new games and about that many used ones. The new games are sales Microsoft would not have made if not for the existence of XBMC. In addition, the consoles are now sold at a profit, however slight, and add to sales figures which corporations and fanboys alike love to announce.

So, while this part of your comment is accurate, the rest is nonsense. Getting the console into my house is a way to sneak games in there, too.

Re:You have it completely right

[TeknoHog]

If you buy a PS3 and use it as a computer or HTPC or whatever, they lose money on it.

So why did Sony enable the installation of Linux or other OSes on the non-slim version? Even without the GPU, it has turned out an incredibly powerful computer for some uses. Some research groups use a cluster of PS3s for scientific work, for example.

Re:You have it completely right

[hedwards]

Perhaps that means they need to get a reasonable business model? I mean if that's they're business model then they really need to just accept that a lot of the units are going to cost them money, rather than play the anti-trust game and see how much they can damage their merchandise before being sued.

Re:You have it completely right

[kevinNCSU]

They do accept that the units will cost them money because they know they'll make up that money in game sales. We pay a lower cost for the actual machine because they expect us to buy games. If everyone bought the machines but no one bought games they'd have to raise the price of the console, probably to the point where it'd be no more attractive to you then a regular computer. It's not like they advertise it as an open platform and I don't think anyone who has ever been to an arcade or owned another console has any expectation of it being so.

Re:You have it completely right

[tepples]

They only care if you buy PS3 games as everything else will lose them money.

Who makes the PS3 games? And how did they learn to make the PS3 games?

Re:You have it completely right

[seebs]

As I understand it: Tax reasons, basically. They could get into a better tariff category by being able to call it a computer.

Re:You have it completely right

[Opportunist]

In that case I question the business model. Two things are a given: People will not buy unless an item matches their demand, and any restriction you place on hardware will eventually be broken. If your model relies on your hardware being not broken because you obviously think your games stink so badly that everyone who buys the console will not buy the games, and thus make your model viable, I guess the problem is not me breaking the hardware but relying on a business model that just does not work anymore as soon as the jail is broken. And, as we can see, it will be broken sooner or later.

I hope for Sony that they made enough money by now. If the consoles are still sold at a loss, they might have to consider stopping selling them altogether. Whether that's a good idea considering how game makers might be pissed by that decision and cease to develop for a shrinking market is another matter.

Re:You have it completely right

[Narishma]

Obviously the business model works, they have used it since the first Playstation, and Microsoft uses it too. It works because even if it's very easy to play pirated games on the console, there are still enough legitimate consumers for them to make a profit. The model doesn't depend on the hardware not being broken forever, only for the first few months/years until they have a sufficient user base that buys games regularly and/or the price of manufacturing the console drops sufficiently to make it profitable by itself.

Re:You have it completely right

[Opportunist]

The hyping model worked for the music industry as well for a while. They played a song up and down the radio for a few weeks or even months before the record could be bought so people were anxious to get it when it finally got out and it was an immediate smash hit simply because everyone rushed to the store to get it. It doesn't work anymore, you might have noticed.

The business model works still maybe, but the question is how long it will. Any business model that relies on the customer not doing what he wants with his product will eventually run into the resistance of the customer, either by a refusal to buy or a hack that results in the ability to do what they want.

Re:You have it completely right

[CronoCloud]

No, that tariff has been gone for years. It was Yabasic on the PS2 that was the attempt, the tariff disappeared soon after, before Linux on the PS2 and PS3 were available.

It's very possible!

[Nursie]

I'm all for this hack and opening the platform up, but it's already a great media center IMHO.

Just load up some UPnP/DLNA software (some are mentioned up-page, I use MediaTomb) and browse your media straight from the PS3 XMB interface. We use it all the time.

yes, it could do with some more formats supported, but it's pretty good on most stuff.

No Cedega for you!

[Nursie]

Sorry, but Wine and its derivatives can only ever work on x86 hardware (or hardware with x86 compatibility) as I understand it. You can move binaries between OS's by emulating.intercepting.translating system calls, but not between architectures.

It would need native linux games to be compiled for PPC, preferably designed and built specially for Cell hardware.

Re:No Cedega for you!

[hedwards]

No, you can't. You can move it between OSes by wrapping system calls, no emulation is involved. Different OSes on the same architecture have access to more or less the same set of instructions, differences between specific chips not withstanding.

Emulation only comes into play when you need instructions that are not available at all on a given architecture or that for one reason or another differ.

Re:No Cedega for you!

[Nikker]

Most games are already abstracted through DirectX anyway so they don't directly rely on the hardware to begin with (hence why you can run the same game on ATI/Nvidia). Since they have already figured out most of the calls (enough to make many games work) adapting to a new architecture isn't really all that bad. Especially if Cedega runs on the kernel and stock libraries it will make the transition all that much easier.

Re:No Cedega for you!

[slimjim8094]

Wrong. WINE Is *Not* an Emulator; that is, it is perfectly happy to re-implement the Windows API. And like most code, it can be recompiled on, say, SPARC without too much work.

But the code that calls it needs to be able to execute natively - because WINE Is Not an Emulator. In theory you could run Windows NT Alpha/PowerPC code with the corresponding version of WINE...

tl;dr GP gets it right. WINE won't work.

Re:No Cedega for you!

[exomondo]

Especially if Cedega runs on the kernel

??? wtf does that even mean?

Re:No Cedega for you!

[Nikker]

Sorry about that, what I meant is if Cedega uses kernel calls then the kernel for the PS3 will already map the calls correctly with out Cedega it's self having to make changes for those calls.

Re:No Cedega for you!

[cbhacking]

Wine is actually working on getting support for other architectures (ARM is the one I noteced), presumably either to add support for WinMo apps on Android or similar (WinCE API is a bit different from Win32, but not extremely) or to support compiling a Win32 app for Linux on ARM.

That said, the gist of your post is completely correct. For now, at least, Wine would be completely useless on the Cell or any other PPC-based processor.

Re:No Cedega for you!

[nxtw]

Sorry, but Wine and its derivatives can only ever work on x86 hardware (or hardware with x86 compatibility) as I understand it. You can move binaries between OS's by emulating.intercepting.translating system calls, but not between architectures.

It (is/was) possible to run x86 Wine on qemu's user mode emulation. This was the original motivation to port Wine to Darwin/Mac OS X (before Apple switched to Intel).

Wine's Win32 implementation can also be used to compile native executables using the Win32 API. I think some commercial Windows applications were actually ported to non-Windows operating systems this way. It appears to support PowerPC.

Re:No Cedega for you!

[Nursie]

Now those things are perfectly possible, yes. A full x86 emulator with wine (or Reactos or even real windows) would work fine, but will be dog-slow compared to native execution.

And compiling requires source, or intent on the part of the original author to make a version for the target platform.

Re:No Cedega for you!

[nxtw]

But the code that calls it needs to be able to execute natively - because WINE Is Not an Emulator. In theory you could run Windows NT Alpha/PowerPC code with the corresponding version of WINE...

x86 Wine is/was supported using qemu's user mode emulation.

Re:No Cedega for you!

[MrHanky]

You really don't know what you're talking about. If you want Windows games running on Wine on a non x86 platform, you will need to recompile the binaries for that platform. Which you can't, as they are closed source and proprietary.

Re:No Cedega for you!

[rdavidson3]

What's to say that you can't get a VM that emulates a x86 instead on this box?

Re:No Cedega for you!

[Nursie]

Nobody said that.

But it's not what was proposed (wine/cedega) and is likely to be very slow.

Re:No Cedega for you!

[hairyfeet]

But how slow is "dog slow"? Would it, for example, allow games from say the 90s to work? Because one of the reasons my boys love to keep my old Dreamcast hooked to the TV is the fact they can play the older games for systems like the Genesis on it, which is a lot nicer than having to dig my old Genesis out of storage and clean it up.

If this would allow you to play the old 90s FPS and RTS games I could see this being worth the trouble. Playing the original No One Lives Forever or C&C:Red Alert on the PS3 would be sweet, and having Cell accelerated video transcoding and GPU video acceleration would just be the icing on a delicious cake. Sony should think about the potential for extra profit something like this could generate. I haven't bought a PS3 for my family (The oldest is like me and prefers PC, the youngest is happy with the Wii) but if they get this down so I can do the above easily on a PS3 I could see going out and getting one.

Mom could use it for an HTPC, while the boys could have it for gaming, and it would save me the trouble of building my mom a DVR this spring. It would definitely give me a reason to shell out $300 for a PS3 over an x360. And I'm sure I'm not alone considering how popular the homebrew scene still is. There are plenty of us who don't care about being able to pirate, we just want access to all those cool features built into the new hardware that we can't currently use.

Re:No Cedega for you!

[bhtooefr]

Or you make "Wine is now an emulator" - Wine + QEMU.

Re:No Cedega for you!

[CronoCloud]

You can run win95/98 under QEMU on the PS3 under Linux. Diablo is playable, seems to run full speed. Funny thing is, Fallout 1 under DOSBOX isn't playable at full speed.

But you can already play NOLF and Red Alert on a PS3, natively. NOLF had a PS2 port and Red Alert was ported to the PSone (and is now available for download for PS3/PSP via PSN)

Re:No Cedega for you!

[a4r6]

Parent, Grand Parent, and Grand Grand Parent are all wrong. Babble babble babble babble nonsense, nonsense.

WINE won't work, ok?

Is this legal?

[Mr_Miagi]

I remember when you could purchase products for the Super Nintendo Entertainment System (Super Famicom) and later on, the Nintendo 64, that allowed you to look at and modify memory. It was sold legally at stores and online.

I wonder if it is legal to create a CD/DVD or simply use a USB key to install software for the PS3 that allows you to do the same thing? Or better yet, make it available as a download from the Online Store?

I'd imagine the market for this would be reasonable enough to profit from the endeavour...

Re:Is this legal?

[Anonymous Coward]

Perhaps you've been living under a rock, but the USA has this whacky law called the DMCA which pretty much makes anyone a criminal that circumvents any sort of encryption. Some other countries that have their faces firmly planted in the USA's rectum also have similar laws. So, depending on where you are in the globe, the answer would be yes/no/maybe.

The new ACTA farce that's currently in the process of being cooked up may very well introduce even more draconion restrictions to this sort of activity.

Yyyyyeah.

[millennial]

People have had LV0, LV1, and NAND dumps for a while now. They were gained through... less than legitimate means. They've been reverse-engineering them for some time. If he managed to get them on his own, fantastic work. If not... well...

Re:The time is nigh!

[Dunbal]

And the girls will still cry...

It's like YMCA except with a D

[tepples]

I remember when you could purchase products for the Super Nintendo Entertainment System (Super Famicom) and later on, the Nintendo 64, that allowed you to look at and modify memory. It was sold legally at stores and online

It was also manufactured prior to October 28, 1998.

You obviously know nothing

[betterunixthanunix]

Not to come off as too aggressive, but games have nothing to do with it. I want to run Fedora on my PS3, and I want to have uninhibited access to the hardware when I do that -- I want the graphics card, I want all the RAM, I want all the SPEs. I do not want to deal with the hyperviser; it gets in the way and slows things down. Yes, the PS3 is powerful even with the hyperviser, but I want more.

If you think games are the most important aspect to breaking the PS3 hyperviser, you are dead wrong.

Re:You obviously know nothing

[sopssa]

Like I said, there are valid reasons for that and you have one. But lets be honest here, most people are only interested about this because it can break copy protections and will use it solely for playing pirated games.

Re:You obviously know nothing

[plague3106]

Sounds like you bought the wrong device. What you want is called a computer, and will allow you to run any code you want.

Re:You obviously know nothing

[betterunixthanunix]

Yes, because for a computer, I would want all the things a PS3 does not have...like...a CPU, RAM, hard drive, graphics card, NIC...oh, wait, that is exactly what a PS3 has. Hm, perhaps you are maintaining a false dichotomy in believing that a "gaming console" is functionally different from a "desktop."

Re:You obviously know nothing

[Shimdaddy]

The difference between a computer and a ps3 is that the ps3 sells for less than it costs to make. Sony makes this money back through selling games -- claiming that there is no difference between a game console and a computer since they have equivalent parts is disingenuous. You can't have it both ways -- you either get great hardware for cheap with restrictions on it, or great hardware for a more reasonable cost and the freedom to do whatever you want with it.

Re:You obviously know nothing

[Toonol]

Once the method for hacking PS3s becomes publicly available, I'm certain that 90% of the hacks will be used to play pirated games. I'm not choosing 90% for hyperbole; I mean at least 19 out of every 20. No, I haven't seen a study. This is being pulled out of a LOT of personal experience.

I'm all for the hacks, because that one user deserves to be able to use his PS3 how he wishes; but piracy is a side-effect that will numerically overwhelm the homebrew, just like it has on every cracked console (360, Wii, DS, PSP, x-box, PS2, etc.)

Re:You obviously know nothing

[Toonol]

I'm not sure at this point that a PS3 is significantly more powerful than a cheap computer, although the BluRay, and a few other special features would be expensive to replicate. For pure number crunching I don't think it has the massive price/performance advantage it did a few years ago... although as a media device, it probably still does.

Re:You obviously know nothing

[betterunixthanunix]

Sony's idiotic business model has nothing at all to do with whether or not the PS3 is a computer.

Really, Sony has been compounding their mistakes with the PS3 from the very beginning. The Cell processor is ahead of its time, in the sense that programmings it with current software techniques is very difficult and far beyond the skill set most video game developers have; programmers just do not know how to fully take advantage of such a chip. This is a very common mistake: create excellent hardware without first consulting the people who will program it (thus, x86 has thousands and thousands of instructions that are hardly ever used because compiler writers do not know how to take advantage of them and most programmers are not going to write assembly language code).

Do not defend Sony here; they took a risk with the PS3, and they did not win. That is why it is called "risk." It would have been a lot safer to market the PS3 as a high end gaming system, sold at the market rate for such systems, or to just wait until game developers were actually demanding the kind of performance that a Cell processor delivers. Or, perhaps they could have marketed the system as a general media center computer with enhanced HD performance (which Toshiba's interest in the Cell) and more flexibility than a standard set-top box. In the end, the Cell processor wound up winning in the market IBM originally developed it for, but nobody wanted to pay IBM's prices for it, and all three companies wound up losing the bet (Toshiba never did use the Cell processor, but instead used a chip that contained only the SPEs, since the PPE is really not needed for what they were doing).

Look, I personally have no reason to complain: where I am now, I have access to a cluster of Cell blades, each of which has four 3.2GHz Cell processors that I can use without restriction (although the effort required to take advantage of multiple Cell processors is even more extreme). What I draw issue with is the practice of using technology to divide and dominate people, which is exactly what Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo are doing with their video game systems. I have absolutely no sympathy for any of these companies, I hope the DMCA is overturned and I hope all of their systems are cracked.

Re:You obviously know nothing

[kcoriginal]

Oh really? How about Modern Warfare 2: Dedicated Private Server? Will that run on my computer? Oooops! Maybe everything isn't so cut-and-dry...

Re:You obviously know nothing

[ifwm]

"Sony's idiotic business model has nothing at all to do with whether or not the PS3 is a computer."

And THAT has nothing at all to do with the point you responded to.

Re:You obviously know nothing

[plague3106]

There is a key difference; the PS3 is a system designed to lock out running of whatever code you want. A computer is designed to let you do whatever you want to it. The fact remains, if you want to run whatever you want, you'll have a much easier time using a computer than a PS3.

Re:You obviously know nothing

[plague3106]

MW2 isn't code you own, and thus you don't have any right to run it on whatever you want.

Re:You obviously know nothing

[betterunixthanunix]

If you were talking about Wii or Xbox hacking, I might agree. But so many PS3 orders were for high performance computing projects -- to the point where Sony removed the ability to do so in newer PS3 models -- that I have a lot of difficulty believing that this hack will primarily be used to run unauthorized copies of games. To be honest, I do not know many people who play video games on their PS3, and those who do have also installed some kind of third party OS in the hopes of making a media center...and this hack is the last piece they need for that.

Re:You obviously know nothing

[toolie]

I'm not sure at this point that a PS3 is significantly more powerful than a cheap computer, although the BluRay, and a few other special features would be expensive to replicate.

Blu-Ray drive from Lite-On for $69.99 at Newegg. Blu-Ray got really cheap, even burners are only $150-$200.

Re:You obviously know nothing

[Nyder]

Like I said, there are valid reasons for that and you have one. But lets be honest here, most people are only interested about this because it can break copy protections and will use it solely for playing pirated games.

what is with you people?

Yes, of course peeps are going to use it to play backups of games. legal or not.

people use google to find torrents and porn.

people use the bus to meet their drug dealers.

people also use fear to get their agenda across.

Re:You obviously know nothing

[eharvill]

What I draw issue with is the practice of using technology to divide and dominate people, which is exactly what Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo are doing with their video game systems. I have absolutely no sympathy for any of these companies, I hope the DMCA is overturned and I hope all of their systems are cracked.

Wow. Really? That statement could be interchanged with just about any company in any industry. Do you realize how crazy you sound? I guess everyone should just make the same widget, compatible with every other widget, at the same price as every other widget that the 2 billion widget companies make.

I just have to know, what companies do you have sympathy for that apparently do no evil and simply want to make the world a better place without making money for the sake of making money???

Re:You obviously know nothing

[meringuoid]

You can't have it both ways -- you either get great hardware for cheap with restrictions on it, or great hardware for a more reasonable cost and the freedom to do whatever you want with it.

I think you'll find we can have it both ways, if we can only defeat the restrictions!

Re:You obviously know nothing

[kcoriginal]

What the hell has that got to do with anything...? Nice legal term, there, but the bottom line is... If I have to have that legalese apply to me in this manner, in this case... then I'll wait for another game from someone who will allow and/or encourage aftermarket tinkering... $54.99 (x4 kids + x1 copy for myself) is money I own, and I have EVERY right to spend it on whatever I want. get the hell off /. ya troll...

Re:You obviously know nothing

[plague3106]

You can't post with even a one score, and you call me a troll? Ya, whatever.

The point is you have no legal option to run a MW2 server on your Pc, thus the fact that you can't run one on a PC is irrelevent.

Re:You obviously know nothing

[kcoriginal]

ooooo... you have a scooooore?! OMG I didn't KNOW?! The point is, I am a CONSUMER.

No. Just... no.

[Dr. Manhattan]

You bought a computer in form of a game console, but then noticed that the designer employed some tricks to keep you from doing certain things whit it, despite you having payed and owning the device.

Um... no. If you didn't "notice" that up front, then you were either exceptionally dim (my condolences) or were paying a dangerously low amount of attention (in which case, I fear for you crossing the street). Console makers don't exactly hide the restrictions they place on what they permit to run.

I got a PS3 knowing that it had built-in limitations on what I could do with it. I decided that those limitations were worth the value I got out of the things it does do. (You are entirely free to judge me a moron for thinking that. I'll try not to let your opinion ruin my day.)

Now, if this hack actually pans out, I may well use it to play around with the PS3 more. After all, I let my son get an R4 for his DS, and he enjoys being able to pack all his games and some movies on one card he doesn't have to swap out. (Yes, his games. I don't steal games, nor do I let him do so.) But even if you think that console makers shouldn't put DRM on their consoles, you can't claim that they aren't up front about doing so.

at least the ps3 lets use your own HDD unlike m$ t

[Joe The Dragon]

at least the ps3 lets use your own HDD unlike m$ that bans you if you use there own disk and not there $149.99 160gb disk. they also ban for 3rd party memory cards as well.

Moron.

[Moryath]

Homebrew is already possible on PS3

Sony has dropped Other OS as an option on the PS3 Slim and all future PS3 releases.

Plus, as it stood the Other OS setup only let you run crippled OSes that didn't have full access to the hardware.

What I want? Something that has full control. Something that can run with full access to all the hardware, something that can then be set up to actually stream datafiles correctly and play them natively (All the UPnP crapservers have to render the file "locally", eating up resources. Plus they're loaded down with the Shitty DLNA DRM setup, they choke on a fair number of codecs, and if I rip alternate audio from my DVD's, they choke trying to switch audio streams half the time.

Meanwhile if you think there's no cheating on the Xbox360/PS3, you've never seen the simple methods of forcing a "local" host and then periodically dropping signal ("standbying") for a second or two to non-local players.

See also. Nitwit.

Cool...

[PinchDuck]

It will be very cool to have full system access to the resources of the PS3. Also, I know that the Cell itself has security baked into it. Does this imply that the cell itself has been compromised? I know that the two events are unrelated, but shame on you Sony for removing the Other OS option from the Slim. Why take away the coolest part of the system?

Copyright

[Dr. Manhattan]

Then you would copy some data / ideas (in this case, games), which are NOT physical goods, from someone. Which is a normal thing that is a basis of human civilization.

Oh, yeah, one more thing. Let's quote someone who made this point far more articulately, Thomas Jefferson: If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the possession of every one, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it. Its peculiar character, too, is that no one possesses the less, because every other possesses the whole of it. He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me.

Of course, he went on to say: Society may give an exclusive right to the profits arising from them, as an encouragement to men to pursue ideas which may produce utility...

No copyright/patents/trademarks at all is a pretty bad state. Draconian DRM and unending copyright isn't productive, either. Fortunately, we can try to find a balance between them. Pretending the choice is only one or the other is ridiculous.

Re:Copyright

[bit01]

Pretending the choice is only one or the other is ridiculous.

True, but assuming copyright/patents/copyrights as currently implemented is the only legal possibility is also ridiculous. Just like any other intellectual creation the law, and DRM, are a product of the mind and can be anything we want it to be. I just wish people were debating it much more deeply than is currently the case. Just as a start there should be large scale scientific studies looking at the social and individual value or otherwise of every aspect of "intellectual property" law and DRM. They're worth trillions and yet so-called experts basically just handwave about what we should and should not be doing.

---

I own it therefore I get to decide what happens to it is a meaningless tautology. Ownership by definition is the right to control. The more interesting question is who owns it?

Re:SONY and Apple - holding our hardware hostage

[DrXym]

The PS3 is by far and away the most open of any mainstream console. Sony likes to ram its proprietary standards down people's throats but the PS3 is a pretty open device as far as these sort of things go.

Too much

[Anonymous Coward]

Even if the PS3 is hacked to run backups, it will still cost a fortune for Blueray discs, at over $5 a disc for the cheap brand, and over $200 for a burner. It just isn't worth it right now.

Re:Too much

[stonefry]

It will probably be a priority to get images running off the HD then.

Re:Too much

[aflag]

Even if the PS3 is hacked to run backups, it will still cost a fortune for Blueray discs, at over $5 a disc for the cheap brand, and over $200 for a burner. It just isn't worth it right now.

$5 per disc seems to me a very nice deal. If you burn 5 games you have already paid off the burner and the discs. A hardcore player will probably buy many more games than 5.

Who is eligible to purchase a debug PS3?

[tepples]

But who is eligible to purchase a debug PS3? These searches didn't immediately turn up anything useful. Is Sony's policy like that of Microsoft's XNA Creators Club, where anyone with a couple hundred dollars who lives in an eligible country can get started? The current worst-case price for the XNA devkit is $1200: a PC with Windows and a gaming video card ($450 at dell.com), an Xbox 360 console ($300), and three years of Xbox Live Gold and XNA Creators Club ($150 per year). Or is it like Nintendo's policy, which requires a dedicated office and apparently a published commercial title on another platform?

Re:Who is eligible to purchase a debug PS3?

[Jaqenn]

I had an idea for WiiWare that I was interested in putting together, but was turned off by Nintendo's policy which specifically calls for a 'secured office environment capable of protecting our intellectual property', and additionally says that home offices are unacceptable. So I noted with great interest an interview with 2DBoy when they related that they floated from coffee shop to coffee shop during the development of World of Goo:

Are you guys officially the entirety of 2D Boy?

KG: Yeah, we're just two people for the bulk of this project. We don't have an office, but we're not allowed to say that, so we just work out of coffee shops and stuff.

I'd be interested to know how wide (and how common) the gap is between Nintendo's stated devkit policy and reality, because there's plenty of WiiWare titles that I can't see how they ever came out of a professional studio.

Re:SONY and Apple - holding our hardware hostage

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

Why isn't anyone talkinga bout Microsoft and Nintendo doing the same damned things?

why are you talking about Apple, in terms of the iPhone/iPod, when Nokia and Microsoft are on board with "trusted" computing?

Finally...

[Motorelius]

Are we going to see a raise of sold PS3 numbers ? Maybe that's not such bad news for Sony afterall...

Re:Finally...

[Xest]

It is, as they're still losing money on the hardware and 99% of these systems will be used to pirate games meaning Sony wont even make the money back on games.

Effectively then, Sony is left with a choice of putting the price up, or taking a financial hit if it becomes popular to have modded PS3s that can play pirated games.

Remove DRM From Save Games?

[seventyfive75]

I just want to backup my Demon's Souls save game. Is that so much to ask? If someone can hack a ps3 to remove the DRM they put on save games, I'm all for it.

amazing

[edxwelch]

They've being trying to hack this thing for 3 years without any success and then this guy comes along and does it within 5 weeks.

Knitting.

[dr2chase]

I've seen knitting (riding a bike past cars going slow in a traffic jam).

Re:SONY and Apple - holding our hardware hostage

[cbhacking]

Back before Linux support was removed from new PS3s, I might have agreed with you (despite the limitations of the hypervisor-based system). Now though... not so much. No homebrew, and not much else that comes to mind in console "openness". Their codec support isn't anything amazing, and their hardware isn't particularly tinker-friendly.

You can get the ability to develop apps (including games that use hardware-accelerated 3D) on the Xbox 360 for free (I think it's $100/year if you want to distribute the app, but the development software is free). There are some limitations compared to the full dev kit, in particular it's managed code only so you can't really take advantage of the specific hardware features, but on the other hand it's easy to code.

Developer interests?

[PhoenixBurn]

What could be the possible fallout from game developers on this hack? Would it be possible that potential new and current game developers that are considering the PS3 for games due to its lack of piracy might have second thoughts? The PS3 has a big learning curve due to its architecture and therefore devopers need to invest more time and resources to program for the PS3 than other systems. Why would they do that if they can make games for more less complex hardware knowing their work will be pirated on either system anyway? The only benefit from this would be for users who want to use linux on the PS3 without hardware limitations, Sony can easily open this up making the hack pointless for those users. But piracy and cheating will run rampant if this goes mainstream, He claimed that it will open the plaform to piracy but claiming "I'm not going to personally have anything to do with that" but it's exactly what hes doing, maybe he wont pirate personally but he is the one who will be solely responsible for all the piracy that will come from it.

Noodles...

[drkim]

I've seen noodle eating - out of a ceramic bowl - with chopsticks. Both hands.

Production Cost

[ChrisMaple]

According to wikipedia production cost of the PS3 is now about $240, so Sony is able to sell at a profit. Parts have become less expensive, design changes have reduced costs, and production efficiencies have helped.

Re:SONY and Apple - holding our hardware hostage

[DrXym]

In hardware the PS3 supports SATA hard disks (making it easy & cheap to upgrade), bluetooth headsets & keyboards, USB keyboards, mice, storage, cameras & printers (although driver support for the latter is understandably limited), wifi 802.11b/g, 10/100/1000 ethernet, and some models also support SD/CF/MS flash cards. In software it features a web browser with Flash player, DLNA support, a CD ripper, DVD & BD player. Codec support includes jpeg, png, MP3, ATRAC3, AAC, DIVX (MPEG4 ASP), H264, MPEG2 over AVI, TS, M2TS, MP4 containers.

Losing Linux support (or rather it not continuing in new models) is a severe blow but it's still the most open system. I do wish that they would reinstate support and open it up more. It's in Sony's interests to split the homebrewers and pirates into two distinct camps. I don't even know why they're so strict about access to the GPU since no matter how much they open it up it will still remain a niche.

How's your math

[rednacid]

19 out of every 20 means 95% not 90% ;-)

Re:Why announce now? Lawsuits coming...

[BatGnat]

depends on what country you live in, I am in Australia, courts say I bought it, I can do what I want with it.

Re:Another "Just cuz I can" 1337 haxor..

[Theoboley]

he wants a medal and a chest to pin it on.