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Perth Game Company CEO Takes IP By Night
snicho99 writes "A US owned gaming company has fled Australia, leaving unpaid employees and a massive tax bill. Apparently many staff have been working unpaid for months to allow their game to ship and hopefully the company to recover. Interzone's Perth (Western Australia) office was created with the assistance of a state government grant. Last week Interzone's (American) CEO
entered the building at night and removed all the servers and IP so that Interzone could continue production at a new company they have opened in Ireland. The staff caught him on camera. More background here."
Remember that it's not so bad to leave a country to do business elsewhere. When I worked in Naples, I would not get almost any pay. Yes, I was a kid and I was supposed to work for my father, but I wanted something off from it. If it doesn't work like you want to, you go somewhere where it does.
The fact that he's moving is not the problem. The problem is that his staff have been working unpaid in order for the company to recover.
Actually I'm asking slashdot. How I am supposed to fight the cheapo crappy pizza places when I offer quality pizzas? Does it matter to keep quality? What you love about pizza?
I love my pizzas to be as cheap as possible.
How do you kill that which has no life?
There's a new poster child available for the "ConnivingBastard PrickManager" definition.
boycott slashdot February 10th - 17th check out: altSlashdot.org
A CEO may pay what His he wishes to His employees and take what He wants.
By His accumulation wealth, a CEO has demonstrated His worldly talent and divine favor. Far be it for us to criticize His actions: are we yet men, while He has a golden MBA? While we merely use our power of Speech, does the CEO not expand the language with outflowing of His prodigious mind? Does that not giveth unto him wisdom we know not, and authority we dare not assert?
We should open our hearts to the CEO. We shall work for Him all our waking hours and offer unto him our wives and daughters for His amusement: for we should be honored to have a radiant Being in our lives as the prime-most consideration.
Should we Fail, we deserve whatever punishment the CEO shall mete out for He, as he so frequently reminds us, is infallible. If a CEO's Company should fail, it is our fault for being indolent, and we shall bear that around our necks. All the remaining resources of a failed Company will go to its CEO as compensation for even attempting to deal with filty being like ourselves. Amen.
I suggest an Ask Slashdot to get a wider array of response... as is, this is offtopic.
WARNING! This girl exceeds the MAXIMUM SAFE standards established by the FDA for BRATTINESS
This particular company was set up by some rather sneaky people who abused the good faith of the workers who put their effort in till the end in an unpaid fashion. Now they've left after breaking a bounty of tax/superannuation laws which leaves not only a trail of illegality but also financial liabilities to the workers which the government coffers will be (it's legislated to do so, not just a possibility) paying out for.
Thanks to this, the fledgling industry in Perth is going to be given even less assistance and opportunities from the government. As somebody living in the city who wants a stepping stone into the 'real deal' areas of the industry, it'll be very hard to transition from student to engine programmer over the next few years..
Basically, fuck Interzone management
If this isn't fraud, I'm sure the government will be on their asses about the lack of payment of their workers.
Disagree != mod troll.
Remember that it's not so bad to leave a country to do business elsewhere. When I worked in Naples, I would not get almost any pay. Yes, I was a kid and I was supposed to work for my father, but I wanted something off from it. If it doesn't work like you want to, you go somewhere where it does.
It IS so bad when you use a bunch of legal dodgery to take ownership of the IP while evading the millions of dollars of debt that you owe to the staff. It IS bad when you break a whole bunch of laws to get that IP out of the country, so you can start another studio in another country without actually paying what you owe to any of your employees. And (personal conjecture here) it IS bad when you will most likely you will do exactly the same to the new studio.
Disclaimer: IAAFIZE. I am a former IZ employee.
Rampant carbon sequestration destroyed the Dinosaurs' tropical paradise. I'm here to help repair the damage.
look at his name - he's a pizza themed troll.
(1.21 gigawatts) / (88 miles per hour) = 30 757 874 newtons
Australia is part of Asia. A decent proportion of our population are of Asian origin. If you're talking about foreign computer science students who want to stay on in Perth to make games, the percentage goes up even higher. :) That said, though IZ was a very diverse group of people from all over the world.
Rampant carbon sequestration destroyed the Dinosaurs' tropical paradise. I'm here to help repair the damage.
> The problem is that his staff have been working unpaid in order for the company to recover.
But that's retarded. They had little reason to do that other than some profoundly misplaced loyalty - they're apparently employees not company partners? Of course I may not be getting the full story, but working for someone without being paid and without keeping the result of your work (i.e. open source, in fact the whole reason open source makes economic sense is because you keep the fruits of your labor and other people also having copies doesn't diminish that) is dumb.
It's a real shame the way he left, however Australia’s extradition agreements with the US and Ireland are in good shape and the ATO is quite unrelenting. It will take time but I would expect to see this guy come to justice.
It does make a lot of sense however (moving the company), Irelands corporate tax rates are below 1/2 what Australia’s are. Aussie politicians always say what a great place Australia is to do business but globally, for anything but mining it's very uncompetitive.
(Assuming it's true) because people like this assume that most people are logical and aren't going to go postal on them so they can just walk in an do what they like. That's the price of civilization, you can bet he wouldnt've raided the office like this or cheated workers ouf of salaries if workers had reputations of smashing skulls in with bats.
There are times when internet hate campaigns get well out of hand, and end up causing huge amounts of trouble for people over trivial or non-existent issues.
This is not one of those times... Take it away, internet...
Bad enough that they shut down but to knowingly continuing to do business and screwing the employees like that. I mean damn...who the hell would want to work for them now.
wikipedia Australia, look at the map, wikipedia Asia, look at the map. They are different continents
We may have a ridiculous amount of asian immigrants that still speak chinese/japanese after they get here, but that still does not make us a part of asia.
Marty, is that you?
Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot the map demarcations on Wikipedia define whether or not we're part of Asia or not.
Rampant carbon sequestration destroyed the Dinosaurs' tropical paradise. I'm here to help repair the damage.
So as soon as this jerk sets up shop in Ireland let's DDoS his ass. I'm sure they are folks much more crafty than I who can whip up a devil's brew of Internet mayhem on his fat ass.
I hate to say it, but how smart are you if you're working for zip for MONTHS? People screw their spouse for less, so why put so much trust in your employer?
Is this sort of thing legal?
Oh wait. Yeah, I guess not.
"entered [...] and removed"
Yes, something was lost.
Actually what he did is more along the lines of writing a cheque to Amazon for a CD they sell. Then sneaking into their offices at night, bullshitting the police into thinking you work for Amazon even though you don't, burning yourself a copy of the CD you bought, bullshitting the property owner into issuing an (illegal) order to all Amazon staff barring them from the city block around their building, and then flying home with your burned CD.
And then the cheque bounces.
Rampant carbon sequestration destroyed the Dinosaurs' tropical paradise. I'm here to help repair the damage.
Interzone owns the Australia Tax Office (ATO) approximately $1m AUD and $500k in unpaid wages and superannuation. The owner changed the locks on the firm at 4am in the morning, locking all employees out from their work. Not even given a chance to collect their personal belongings. A new 'Interzone' called Big Collision is being setup in Dublin Ireland to complete development of their game Futebol in time for the World Cup, and without the debt they have accumulated in Australia. Originally Interzone was given a grant by the Western Australian goverment of $500k, so this has blown up very big on the news there, causing quite some political issues and questions of the chief Treasurer. They did not even lay off the staff, as that would of caused paper work, and the paying out of their due wages and redundancy money. They were simple locked out from their building.
The firm that provides the middleware (BigWorld) based in Sydney, provided a server engineer (contracted by Mike to clear out the IP assets from the server.)
The Interzone employees have been fantastic, in collecting evidence, and staying together to fight for what they are due.
This is not the first time this has occured in Australia, similar shit has happened in the last year with firms Transmission, and Fuzzyeyes. Video games, one of the last places for cow-boy businessmen.
For people who would like to read more on this, check these links:
http://www.tsumea.com/australasia/australia/news/120210/interzone-games-perth-closes-staff-locked-out
http://www.kotaku.com.au/2010/02/wa-dev-interzone-games-close-to-liquidation/
http://www.kotaku.com.au/2010/02/interzone-ceo-marty-brickey-responds/
And this video where the employees confront one of the directors http://vimeo.com/9574704
Well, did he just make a copy? Sounds more like he stole servers.
WTF are you smoking? If it's not already illegal it should be.
Ezekiel 23:20
If this guy is a director and knowingly traded while insolvent / unable to pay the bills, he's looking at five years in prison. Once ASIC gets done, the ATO will start looking at tax issues. This guy is going to be a bureaucrat chew toy.
Australia has never been part of Asia, it part of the Australian continent
Er, no, RTFS - he removed the servers.
This is the one time that referring to "IP theft" actually makes sense. He stole it, removing the original rather than duplicating.
Do people who commit piracy do so by going to the record companies at night, sneaking in, and removing their CDs?
Anyhow, where does anyone accuse him of stealing? Or are you just making up a straw man?
The truly shocking thing here is that Perth is in the news.
Most boring city in the world, only good for raising babies and retiring. Heaps of 35yr old women with no men because everybody leaves... like these guys should of and joined a proper American/English/European company.
Many companies fail. Sometimes, they are able to restructure, change their business, consolidate or relocate and start again. Shit happens sometimes. As long as they've acted in good faith along the way....
However, I can't imagine any company would get away with not paying staff for months. I couldn't afford to work for free, and even if I could... well, I still don't think I would. I'm not saying that staff are responsible... but I can't help but think they were either stupid or brainwashed.
Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot the claims of one random person on Slashdot define whether a country is part of Asia or not.
> "He just made a copy, nothing was lost. It's not stealing."
That doesn't really apply when you take the computers, too.
Actually, the way I see it, the quote is completely right, even in this case.
The "IP" is irrelevant. The employees are owed for the time they worked, and nothing more. Even if you believe there is such a thing as "IP", the employees agreed it belongs to the company when they signed the contract, so it can't be "stolen" from them.
Having the CEO fire everybody and have another team continue development would have been perfectly legal. The only illegal thing is not paying the previous employees all they were owed.
I don't see what the problem is: If they worked unpaid by choice, then they're foolish, in my not so humble opinion, and here's why: Having been cheated before, I'd not trust even family or friends when it comes to my financial future, and certainly not an employer.
Work for free? Sorry, been there, done that, much in the same way as these people: I trusted the company's owner, believed him when he said that he'd reward me and the rest of us, if we were only patient and worked hard. It would all work out in the end, you see, and everyone would end up wealthy.
Yeah, right. The only person that ended up wealthy was him - he sold the company, and the people that had worked to build it up got nothing, and had no recourse, as we had nothing in writing.
As the saying goes: "Once burned, twice shy". I'm older now, and considerably more cynical, and I don't work for any employer for free, ever. The only thing that we have is our lives, and we cannot know how much time we have: Giving it away to an employer without recompense is foolish at best, because they never remember the sacrifices you made for them, and you can never get that time back.
Always keep that in mind when dealing with an employer: You're trading your life in exchange for money. Make sure that it's worth it to you, don't ever be surprised when someone tries to cheat you and don't let them do so.
In addition, he intends to sell copies of this CD.
look at his name - he's a pizza themed troll.
I don't think he's a troll... I just think that he doesn't speak English natively, and doesn't realize this is not the topic branch to discuss it.
It's not really worth labeling everyone causing trouble as a "troll"... because some people just don't know any better.
WARNING! This girl exceeds the MAXIMUM SAFE standards established by the FDA for BRATTINESS
> The problem is that his staff have been working unpaid in order for the company to recover.
But that's retarded. They had little reason to do that other than some profoundly misplaced loyalty - they're apparently employees not company partners? Of course I may not be getting the full story, but working for someone without being paid and without keeping the result of your work (i.e. open source, in fact the whole reason open source makes economic sense is because you keep the fruits of your labor and other people also having copies doesn't diminish that) is dumb.
Well, working for free does make sense if you expect to get the money later. Basically they've given the company a loan. It turned out the company owner was not credit-worthy, though.
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
He took out the servers, that's not copying.
Australia has an extradition agreement with the U.S.
The offences that are extraditable include:
11. Robbery.
12. Burglary; housebreaking or any similar offence.
13. Larceny.
14. Embezzlement.
15. Obtaining any property, money or valuable securities by false pretences or other form of deception.
I suspect this will not end well.
Actually, I live about half a block away from one of those cheap pizza places in Europe (Stockholm, to be exact). Little hole in the wall place. Run by Kurdish immigrants. Great (and dirt-cheap) pizzas, and their calzone are to die for. As good as some I've had in Italy.
So, no, I guess that I don't really know what you're talking about. :)
Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
Last week Interzone's (American) CEO entered the building at night and removed all the servers and IP so that Interzone could continue production at a new company they have opened in Ireland. The staff caught him on camera.
As much as I think that Mike Turner is a total scumbag, the linked video doesn't actually show him being caught in the act of removing anything. It does show him to be consistently wearing those crappy white iPod/iPhone earbuds - but while that probably should be a crime, it isn't currently on the books.
... and then they built the supercollider.
But that's retarded. They had little reason to do that other than some profoundly misplaced loyalty
The only reason the loyalty was misplaced was because the CEO screwed them. Had he honored their commitment and worked as hard as possible to save the company and then paid them back dues + bonus/stock their loyalty would have been dead on. Unfortunately they worked for a douchebag. I'm the first person to have no loyalty for a large mega corp but small shops require it. We can't function without the employees giving a damn about the company and the company can't function without giving a damn about their employees.
The Goal: A long simple life filled with many complex toys.
even if he gets away with this, his new employees will probably think twice before working on unpaid wages for so long. Also, a publisher should certainly be wary of someone with such dubious business practices.
"I love my job, but I hate talking to people like you" (Freddie Mercury)
Hate to tell you this, but I haven't seen anything about this in Perth. This is the first I've heard of it. 'Chief Treasurer' as you put it would be the Treasurer, Troy Buswell. He's also Minister for Commerce and the grant likely came from the part of DOIR that now works for him. It's a Commerce matter, not Treasury and Finance, but he's been quiet on both fronts.
Hmmm... My experience with Asians in Oz was that Oriental chicks give amazing head. Bit different from yours, I guess.
Wait: are we talking about a game company, or SCO?
Oh, yes. Both.
The latter was your real problem. Working for free to get more money later is no problem if you can afford it (and you don't expect the company to go bankrupt). Working for free without getting a written and signed agreement that you get more money later is.
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
The only illegal thing is not paying the previous employees and the Australian Government all they were owed.
TFTFY.
Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
Game companies often hire people for whom that is their first job. They have not yet learned that companies are psychopathic abusers, and that your only loyalty is to yourself and your colleagues. Any kindness you offer to the company as such - working for no pay for instance - will never be returned by them.
free beers and hookers
Either you were running a tipsy knitting circle, or the folks were looking for a boss behind the boss --
big cheese, xtra crust, and anchovies.
Why did they work without pay?
Sounds like they did it to themselves.
his name is pizzaanalogyguy...
This is a joke. I am joking. Joke joke joke.
... but if what the programmers and designers make is not a creative work but simply a work-for-hire industry product, how can copyright laws apply? They are there to protect artists and creators, not industry corporations.
I believe the saying you're looking for is:
Fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again.
- Former President Bush
When you're afraid to download music illegally in your own home, then the terrorists have won!
No shit, Sherlock.
> I love my pizzas to be as cheap as possible.
I like homemade pizza. Good *and* cheap.
The major caveat is, you have to start a couple of hours before you want to eat, because the dough needs time to rise. This is fine on, say, a Saturday, because you can just mix up the dough at three in the afternoon, then go do something else for a while and have supper at five or six.
But it doesn't work so well if you get home from work at six and are already hungry. On those days, I don't make homemade pizza for supper.
Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
I wonder what consequences could be for this Futebol game they're producing. Do they have a distribution deal in place? If not, will they be able to get one after word of what they've done in Australia spreads? If the game does reach the shops, how many people who might have otherwise bought it might decide not to buy it on principle? How many shops might decide not to stock it?
I'm glad to see a CEO so devoted to getting his game out for the fans. Screw the developers. It's the fans that matter!
I'm a programmer and what I do is work for hire. You pay me X/hour, I spend that time solving the problem you have.
Usually that hour is spent writing code, but sometimes that hour is spent on research that results in "Yes, we could do this, and here's how", or "No, it's not going to work for this reason".
What happens to what I wrote doesn't really matter to me, so long I got paid for the time.
I still think it's a creative endeavour anyway, in the same way that a decorator being paid for "come here and tell me how to make this prettier" isn't exactly performing an assembly line job.
Hah. If that were true, copyright wouldn't work the way it does. To start with, if copyright was really about the artist it wouldn't be transferrable.
> Australia is part of Asia.
Depending on which list of continents you go by, there are a lot of variations. The geographers, geologists, and sociologists can't seem to agree on a single definition, so it can be a bit confusing. How many continents are there, anyway? Five? Six? Seven? More?
For instance, there are variously considered to be one, two, or three continents in the western hemisphere. Two is the most common figure, but it's not universal.
Europe may or may not be part of the same continent as Asia. I even saw one list that makes Africa part of the same continent as Eurasia, since they're connected.
Some lists omit Antarctica entirely, since it has no permanent inhabitants.
But for all that, I have never seen a list that made Australia part of Asia. Usually it's a continent all by itself. Frequently it's part of a "continent" called "Oceania", which also includes most of the islands in the Pacific (but not the ones that are very close to another continent, such as Taiwan or Vancouver Island). Sometimes only a few islands are included as part of Australia -- Tasmania, New Guinea, etc. I've even seen definitions that include New Zealand as part of Australia but NOT New Guinea (which was listed as part of Asia).
I have even seen occasional claims that Australia is an island, not part of any continent at all. (These claims generally come from laypersons and usually involve comparison to Greenland; typically the person making the assertion has been looking at Mercator-projection maps.)
But this is the first time I have EVER seen anyone list Australia as part of Asia. That's totally unprecedented.
Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
I complete the mental thought with "tax fraud". Really, if you're going to completely destroy everyone's lives because you're cheap, at least be smart and hide the money in Switzerland, kids. It's classier.
"Video meliora proboque, deteriora sequor" -- Ovid, Metamorphoses
Hard luck there for all the people who just got scammed by a run of the mill business asshole. My theory is that they are all lying assholes, each and every one of them, and if you keep that in mind you'll find your dealings with them go much better. Just remind yourself as they speak that every word is carefully selected to make them richer.
Big tip - the day you find your pay hasn't gone into your account is the day you hit jobsearch.com or call your agent and let them know you're looking for paid work.
The business's responsibility is to ensure there is enough cash set aside against bad luck/planning/weather and enough cash flow coming through to ensure projects get completed. It's *their* responsibility, not yours...you write code, or run tests, answer the phones. If they've f*ed up enough to not have the money to even pay the people who write the product, then you have to wonder how else they are screwing up.
All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain.
This is not the first time this has occurred in Australia, similar shit has happened in the last year with firms Transmission, and Fuzzyeyes. Video games, one of the last places for cow-boy businessmen.
Actually, I belief this is a misrepresentation... I would argue that these are not "Cow-Boy Businessmen", but "Cow-Dung Businessmen". These fecal administrators, give scum of the earth a bad name. If there was any justice, they'd be plowed into a field so as to provide their only possible positive contribution to society as fertilizer.
I applied for a job there once. I am glad I didn't end up with it otherwise there is a good chance I may have ended up in all this mess.
In point of fact, you are incorrect. On the ABC News Story on the issue, he actually made a comment whereby he said he'd been "watching this company closely. Which is of course, a crock of shit. Many IZ members have been in direct contact with Troy Buswell's office over this issue already. I guess you only watch 7/10/9 eh? ;)
You're not the sharpest knife in the drawer, I see.
for a day or two, and then shoot him in the head. One less psychopath in the world can only be a good thing.
"The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
Has anyone else noticed the picture of Mike Turner with the Sphinx in the background halfway down the third page linked to in TFS? The caption below it is surely a little redundant...
Which statement was incorrect? The original post said "so this has blown up very big on the news there" Have you got any more than one ABC story? I was merely pointing out the hyperbole. If this was such a big deal, ACA and TT and the rest of the commercial bottom-feeders would be all over it, especially given that it's foreigners ripping off hard-working Australians.
Which do you choose? The second option is a waste of time. The first is a guaranteed loss. The third is a gamble, where you potentially have a bigger loss, but potentially have a gain. I know people working for small businesses who have received nice bonuses for choosing option 3, and others who have had the company fold owing them back pay. If you don't have another job lined up to start immediately, it's often a good idea to try to keep the company afloat while you look for other employment as a backup.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
If you have a bread maker with a timer, you can throw the ingredients in the machine in the morning before you leave for work, then have the dough ready for when you get back.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
The region is sometimes refered to a Australasia but even here in Oz it's not a well known term, nor has it got anything to do with Asia.
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
That's kranzky finding a little humour in an otherwise horrible situation ;-)
To start with, if copyright was really about the artist it wouldn't be transferrable.
How is it not about the artist if transferring those rights is what artist wants?
Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
Board: "Hey Mike, we're out of money. Take our shit and get out of Dodge!" Mike: "But what about our employees? We owe them and shit." Board: "Fuck'em!" Mike: "Yeah, hell yeah, fuck all them!" Wow, to have been a fly on the wall on that board meeting. Sociopaths are so god damn interesting people.
"We may have a ridiculous amount of asian immigrants that still speak chinese/japanese after they get here, but that still does not make us a part of asia."
We actually have very few Japanese immigrants but they do love spending their holidays and money here, particularly in Queensland where the local economy is heavily dependent on tourisim.
The Japanese are golf mad and a golf trip to Oz to play on a real golf course is cheaper than a golf club membership in Tokyo to play on a multi story driving range. On the whole they are very well mannered guests in our country and tend to stick to organised tour groups because of the language barrier.
Also every chineese immigrant I have ever met speaks english, it's a requirement to get into the country unless you come in as a refugee and we do not recognise people from China as refugees.
As you probably know there is a minority racist element in our population who idolise people such as Pauline Hanson. Hanson is ironically now emmigrating to the UK after basically being ridiculed and laughed out of politics by the rest of us. I think she is in for a shock when she finds out how many second and third generation "brown people" are wandering around the UK.
For the non-Aussie readers, members of Hansen's minority are generally refered to as "yobbos", which when translated into American means "rednecks".
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
He's comparing software you have to pay for (MS) with freeware (Linux). When did /. get so dense?
I know this is offtopic but even if he only copied the IP and runned from the country... why no this could be a worse crime that stealing? I think this is some kink of obsession with the word "stealing", after all, it's clearly not the worst crime one can do: "murder" "rape" "torture" are clearly worse.
Anyway, I don't think not all cases of IP infringement are the same. Copying one CD can cause at the most a damage to the copyright holder equal to the CD cost. Copying the source code from a product and using that to establish a competing company can cause enormous damage.
Well, if hes the CEO, its legally his stuff. The employees work for the company and they don't normally have ownership rights of their work. Happens all the time when companies go under and restructure
Now, bailing out on their salaries, that's uncool and something to get upset over. ( but it also happens when companies go out of business...)
---- Booth was a patriot ----
How was the cop able to force them to turn the camera off? That seems...oh I don't know, evil I guess is the word.
Actually, the way I see it, the quote is completely right, even in this case.
The "IP" is irrelevant. The employees are owed for the time they worked, and nothing more..
Yes, and if you try and pull a stunt like that on when you're having an automobile repaired, you'll discover what a Mechanic's Lien is.
Because then the creation can get used against the artist, and I can't see how would that be something the artist wants. Take for instance the ridiculousness of "Prince" being a trademark not owned by Prince, and him being denied use of it, despite it being his real name.
Also, generally there's not a negotiation happening on equal terms. The huge conglomerate has an advantage over the artist, so I think they should be restricted in what they can ask. There's a reason why you can't enslave yourself, or sell your children through a contract.
I think that it should be possible to *grant* rights, going as far as granting enough rights that somebody could do as if they owned the copyright, but never actually transferring, so it's impossible to lose the rights to something you created.
I hope the employees kept backups of the code... I hope the employees can form some kind of cooperative (company owned by the employees) and finish the game. I'm sure that the gamming community would support them and buy their version of the game instead of the one made by this dishonest assholes.
snowgirl is the troll.
Always has been, always will be. You need to take a look at history.
The worst case recently though are all the soldiers sent off to Iraq to save America from Weapons of Mass Destruction. Shoulda joined Blackwater, not the army.
Deleted
>>However, I can't imagine any company would get away with not paying staff for months.
Talk to the guys who worked for Be...
--bornagainpenguin
Have a Virgin Mobile USA smartphone? Give VMRoms.com a try!
the creation can get used against the artist
Only if the artist agrees to a contract that allows for such things. Why do that?
Take for instance the ridiculousness of "Prince" being a trademark not owned by Prince, and him being denied use of it, despite it being his real name.
A great example of a poorly structured business relationship. That's not his full, legal name. It's his brand, just like a band name. He agreed to take a pile of cash in exchange for allowing a publishing company to operate that brand name. Turns out he was more interested in the short term cash than he was in his own long-term prospects. Typical amateur maneuver.
Also, generally there's not a negotiation happening on equal terms.
Of course. That's because there are very, very few people with enough talent and obvious prospects to be completely in charge of such negotiations. The publishing company has a definite, real, tangible things (cash, and the business operations to invest in promoting and working with an artist), while the artist has the potential to be of sustained interest to a paying audience - not a sure thing at all. So the person with the most to risk (the label) has the stronger negotiating position. This is hardly peculiar to the music industry. It's just as true when you're buying cantelope or thinking of hiring a landscape designer.
I think that it should be possible to *grant* rights, going as far as granting enough rights that somebody could do as if they owned the copyright, but never actually transferring, so it's impossible to lose the rights to something you created.
That's called "licensing," and it's done all the time. But because many artists would rather have more money, they might be willing to transfer rights. Others, who know they have more to offer to their audiences, may decide to retain more control, but not initially accept as much cash. It's a judgement call, and the artist can do it however they like. Photographers, graphic artists, and a million other professional people make exactly the same sorts of decisions all the time.
Doing creative work "for hire" is simply a different relationship than licensing or assigning rights. All of those are legitimate, sensible relationships for different people under different circumstances. This is why musicians and other artists need to actually read and understand case studies before putting their name on a contract. If they're too dumb, or too fixated on bling and MTV to understand the consequences, then it's hard to care what they think, or feel sorry for them. They're probably also the type to rack up credit cards at high interest rates, make poor leasing decisions on cars, etc. Nobody is forcing someone to get into a relationship with a publisher. Artists do it because they don't want to run their own publishing company while they're busy trying to also be an artist. But it's no surprise that a lot of older, wiser artists actually form their own labels and sign younger artists - because they've learned the ropes.
Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
I don't consider australia a part of asia myself, but considering that new zealanders are practically asian/pacific islanders and are basically your neighbors, it's understandable where they infer this.
In the us you can go to jail for having your workers go unpaid and the IRS will also hunt your down for the unpaid tax.
This CEO needs to do some HARD TIME and not that easy lockup they have in australia.
To all employees of that company:
I have managed with great efforts to be seizing the funds of your CEO and sold off his IP, resulting in $40,000,000 of recovered funds. Per Australian Tax code 419, unpaid employees may receive such funds.
Please do forward $100 processing fee to file a claim for your back wages.
Seriously, those guys should have known better.
I do know that the decision was made among employees activley involved in the ordeal that to take it to ACA would be seen as delegitamising and trivialising the episode. The story has also been featured in The West a number of times.
Unfortunately, not much attention is given to games dev, and ABC didn't even air it in their national news report. But for games to even make it into the news and be taken "seriously" ...
As you probably know there is a minority racist element in our population who idolise people such as Pauline Hanson.
Very few people would disagree that the way she handled politics wasn't very smart, or politically correct. However I believe racist would greatly depend on your definition.
Example, you would know of austudy and abstudy, these are centrelink payments you get as a student. Now, in an equal society, why are these two different systems needed, why can't aboriginal students be treated the same as white students?
They receive more money and more benefits than any white man could hope for in the same situation. Call me crazy, but that is racist, against the majority. But the very moment any of this is brought up, it's considered politically incorrect and you are called racist, I just don't get it.
Is it racist to want equal treatment for people? instead of giving certain subsections extreme benefits compared to others?
Absconding with seizable property is definitely a dick move.
Australia has always been a part of Oceania.
Oceania has always been at war with Eurasia.
So not only is he ripping off the taxman but he's stealing the employee's personal property.
So how did it turn out at those other firms?
Starbucks, Harbuckle of Breath.
I dunno. Little Caesars' $5 pizza is cheaper than what I can make myself... Call it $3.50 (at the low end, assuming I get stuff on sale) for the sauce, cheese, and pepperoni; that least $1.50 for crust and labor. And I'd be lucky to squeeze just the crust in that much. ;)
Benford's Corollary to Clarke's Law: "Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced."
And a man's honor should know no geographic bounds, especially in this day and age. I would expect anyone considering business with this man (including anyone in Ireland, or elsewhere) to take heed and note that he is not trustworthy. I would also encourage such former employees to make the facts of the case known wide and far, as far as is possible without criminal libel or slander.
Come play Moral Decay!
Yes.
Rampant carbon sequestration destroyed the Dinosaurs' tropical paradise. I'm here to help repair the damage.
You obviously haven't seen his posts before. He is most definitely a pizza themed troll (why?!).
It isn't a language barrier - his english is evidently too good to "not know any better" and to use a different topic branch to discuss it.
His stories are not even consistent and always pretty lame, he stretches it too far getting a pizza theme to these stories.
Also, he should use a different name - he rarely makes a pizza analogy, just a pizza troll
I don't know the Australian systems you describe but your summary makes them sound a lot like Affirmative Action here in the US. This is a tough question. There is no question that AA is prejudice and, depending on implementation, racist. However, as it is there to correct a past wrong, the hard part is deciding when it is still or no longer needed. We are struggling with this question still in the US, as evidence by the recent University of Michigan case on admissions.
One major issue here is whether the "need" for AA is perceived to be "over" in some areas (such as the North) but the opposite in others (like the South)... I waffle a bit on this issue myself. I'd personally prefer no law or regulation mentioning race (thus invalidating AA) but that is based on the assumption that racism and inequality is no longer an issue... which is only true in some places.
Come play Moral Decay!
Loki didn't pay its employees for months, and on top of that, it used the employees' credit cards before folding shop.
Put identity in the browser.
No, it's actually his name. He was born as Prince Rogers Nelson.
This, and what's below is a perfect explanation why the current laws don't favour the artist.
They favour those who are the most informed about the legal intrincacies, and have the biggest advantage in the relationship. That could be the artist, if we're talking about a famous and rich one who has it all figured out, and whose name on something carries prestige, but usually isn't.
Er I'm assuming this is a troll, but just in case anyone else doesn't realise, Australia has a reasonable number of ethnically east Asian people. As in >10% of the population (and closer to >20% in some urban areas).
Australia isn't technically in Asia, but its geographic proximity definitely affects the makeup of the population. Far more Asians per capita here than in the US, for instance.
Sure, but the same contract that states this, is made void at the very moment that the contract(ee) fails to pay the contract(or).
Hence, the contract is void. The contractor is free to claim whatever damages they wish if the contractee has voided the contract.
It isn't transferrable here (Austria).
Total bullshit. I wonder what would have happened had they physically stopped him? Did this police just buy Mike Turner's bullshit?
I have another suggestion though - and that is for anyone who would want this game to not purchase it. A boycott, along with a piracy campaign - pirate the shit out of it. It;s about time piracy be used for altruistic purposes.
Could they file suit in the US or wherever the parent company is located?
In many technology companies (not just software, but also other fields, such as biotech), a company's main value lies in IP. Therefore, IP has to be carefully protected. Where are their offsite backups? This project appears to be a sinking ship anyways (lack of pay should be a hint), but what if they had lost everything in their building (regardless of cause) during a more successful phase? How quickly would they be able to get back up and running?
I assure you you can go to jail for the same things in Australia.
However, we need to extradite him from whereever he's gone first. That takes time.
I was making a CG animated film for a small toy company out of my house. I had the render farm in my kitchen and the animation and editing equipment in the living room. The render farm was so loud I had to use ear plugs to sleep. A month before the film was to be finished the owner of the toy company entered my house and stole everything including the back up drives. I owned half the film but he forced me to sell out my rights for one cent on the dollar, we had a 2,700 theater release at the time with MGM. He made a couple of payments then stopped. The payments were only about half what I had into the film myself. Now I'm trying to find a lawyer but it looks bleak. My advice "trust no one!" And I wish they allowed all caps for that one! I've got a few facts posted on a temp web site. I'll be updating it later in the week. Right now I'm busying selling everything I own to pay rent. Riches to rags. http://www.fftheuntoldstory.com/
Let me start by saying that the guy is a douche and needs to go to prison. Having said that, the employees most likely have no right to the code. Anything produced while an employee of the company is most likely the property of the company. He might have to come back to Australia to pursue any legal actions and would most likely be in irons before he cleared the airport, so maybe it will work out after all.
'The tyrant will always find pretext for his tyranny.' - Aesop's Fables
nuff said
"Call me crazy" - Ok you're crazy, $6.50 extra per week is hardly an "extreme benifit".
"Very few people would disagree that the way she handled politics wasn't very smart, or politically correct. However I believe racist would greatly depend on your definition." - Given you define two extra cups of coffee per week as an "extreme benifit", can you please explain your definition of racist.
"I just don't get it." - Yes, I figured that one out from your first post.
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
snowgirl is my pillow. =)
Thanks for the thoughtful, balanced comment ... note that the perceived racial bias in the North vs the South has a lot more more to do with history than with current reality. You might be a bit closer if you differentiated urban and rural, but even that's an over-simplification.
No, he commented publicly on the ABC news Friday before last. All he said was that they were keeping an eye on this company and hadn't paid them any of the grant money since April last year.
This could be mostly legal, the servers may have always been owned by the parent company and leased back to the Australian subsidiary. The IP very likely was also never owned by the Australian firm. If the subsidiary did hold assets I expect the parent company had security over them, so if they had loaned the subsidiary money then in the event of being wound up they take control of the assets. Lying to creditors/employees on the other hand, well there's a mess there but it's probably wrongful trading etc on the part of the subsidiary's directors while the parent's may or may not have known.
It will be up to the administrator to find out if there is anything to be done, and the employees, in their position as creditors, should be applying their pressure on him. The company may have knowingly traded whilst insolvent in which case the directors may be charged with wrongful trading, and potentially be personally liable for debts. The nature of the relationship with the parent company and related transactions may also offer some scope - it's not unheard of for courts to lift the veil and treat parent & subsidiary undertakings as one entity. Furthermore he may well be able to show the parent acted as a shadow director. There is room for some optimism here for two reasons, firstly a "million dollar tax bill" implies profits (though it may be tax on salaries that hasn't been paid over). Secondly the government grant should have all sorts of covenants, you have to be an utterly incompetent complete idiot to grant or loan money to any subsidiary and not enforce appropriate covenants and security over the parent company.
While I sympathise with the employees, there were lots of things they could have done, and given the amounts they should have taken some advice. Sure, in start-ups it's not uncommon for employees to give some leeway and "muck in". But this is a subsidiary! Why do this if there is a parent with money? Secondly, if you're a creditor, act like one. Take a look at the accounts, check for assets and file security over them. Negotiate for some equity - if they had just 20% between them minority protections kick in. An accountant probably would have given them this advice for free if they suggested that some audit fees might be coming their way later on.
It's not stealing, It's copyright infringement.
please adjust the article to include the new company name and the CEO name and game name - so that this reputation will haunt him globally courtesy of internet search. Moving to a different country isn't the complete reset it once was.
How do you remove "IP" by night? "IP?"--like, intellectual property? You could remove code stored on a computer-readable storage medium, and the code could embody ideas that could be protected by IP . . . but "remove IP"? Eh??
Even signed agreements are worthless unless you have the money to enforce them in court.
Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
Fair enough, I concede I should have looked up the numbers beforehand, one would assume that if there is an entire section dedicated to them, that there would be enough discrepancy to justify that departments existence. Never underestimate government overhead I guess.
Still, if the difference is so little, then why NOT do as said above and put them on the same line as everyone else?
can you please explain your definition of racist.
Someone who wants different treatment depending on race
Basically, opposing affirmative action (giving certain people special preference in certain things) was what got her labelled racist the most, specifically because those groups that are receiving benefits have something to lose. While I was never a supporter of hers because she was an idiot, I don't see how wanting people to be treated equally equates to being racist.
If you can put forward a pro affirmative action argument that is completely fair and unprejudiced to all parties, go ahead.
"I just don't get it." - Yes, I figured that one out from your first post.
the ridiculous amount of asians comment was specifically because I find it strange to be in your home town having everyone around you talk in chinese. Could just be I consider it slightly rude, but it makes you feel as if you are out of place, even though most of them can speak english.
Let's be clear - corporations are run by people. Actions taken by companies are in fact directed by human stakeholders. Many stakeholders see personal gain as the he highest order of business without regard to how the business integrates into society. Stakeholders benefit from the dedication of employees - motivated primarily by the need to remain employed - who sacrifice for the greater good of the corp. Meanwhile, the company is ultimately only interested in margin. The structure itself is inherently flawed when companies are not owned by their workers. Governing a modern corp with some founding principle, spirit or mantra may be a step in the right direction... But seriously; how long before even G abandons it's "do no evil" pledge? What recourse would employees have (unless they are also shareholders with a voice)?
"It's a doughnut stuffed with M&M's. That way when you finish the doughnut, you don't have to eat any M&M's."
No, it's actually his name. He was born as Prince Rogers Nelson
... doing business using part of the name of one member. Regardless, it's up to the artist to decide whether to sign something.
What you mean is, it's actually his first name. Just like it's the first name of a lot of other people. He made a business decision to start taking money while performing using only his first name. It's not any different than the band Bon Jovi
They favour those who are the most informed about the legal intrincacies, and have the biggest advantage in the relationship
So, you're saying that most artists can't read, or can't be bothered to ask a representative to exchange their expertise for some of the cash they're about receive? We're not talking bar bands, here. We're talking about people who are considering a relationship with a large company because both parties think there's the prospect of making a lot of money. You're feeling sorry for the party that can't be bothered to read something put in front of them? How about the other party, who commit to funding recording, marketing, etc., and find (of course) that the vast majority of the talent they sign utterly fail to produce anything memorable or saleable? Very, very few artists can possibly produce something that even comes close to covering the costs that the label risks when they take them on.
Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
the lesson here is don't work without getting paid. i'm sorry, but that's it. if the company can't afford to pay you they aren't going to be in business for long. the exception is if you have an equity stake in the business.
just a quick point I left out on the other post though, what that article does not describe is the average level of payment, for instance, I was getting well under half what that site has listed for youth allowance.
more information would be needed to discern typical payments, as opposed to maximum, but that is irrelevant simply by the fact that having them on a different system is already flawed.
Yes, the seperate schemes are a hangover from affirmative action of the 70's and 80's. As I posted in my reply to walshv007 the extreme benefits that no white man could hope for amount to an extra $6.50 per week. ANY student coming from a defined remote area can also apply for rental assistance, people living in remote areas tend to be aboriginals.
Ideologically I'm also not in favour of legislation based on race but pragmatically the aboriginals have not benifited from the so called "lucky country". Until very recently most lived in what can only be described as thrird world conditions, lost between stone age traditions and the 20th century laws.
We also have race based legislation banning the sale of alcohol in many of the aboriginal settlements, their traditional social structures are 40kyrs old and have never had to deal with alcoholisim until the last hundred years or so. Aborigines are also permitted to hunt otherwise protected species on their reserves. IMHO these laws are a GoodThing(TM).
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
As good as some I've had in Italy.
Italian pizza sucks. Now the Greeks, they know how to make a pizza.
Precisely one of the reasons why I think the whole event should have been impossible. A normal first name should be only an identifier, not subject to any sort of ownership or licensing.
No, you're not reading the discussion.
toriver said "[...] how can copyright laws apply? They are there to protect artists and creators, not industry corporations". I pointed out that the current copyright laws don't favour the artist, they favour the corportations most of the time. You're merely providing more evidence of that, and saying that it's the right way for them to be, because not reading a contract properly is a stupid thing to do.
I'm saying that for copyright law to really be something that intends to protect the artist it should be biased to favour the artist at the cost of the company. This is not a particularly strange thing. For instance you can't legally sell yourself into slavery by not reading a contract. This is biased in the weakest party's favour, if it was a legal thing to do, it wouldn't be the huge corporations that'd get hit with it.
I'm not having an argument though, because I'm not arguing in favour in any of both positions, I'm just saying what would things be like if it was really something for the artists.
My own opinion is neither of those. I'd heavily restrict copyright to favour the society over both the companies and the author.
It's very easy for over-privileged whites to say shit like that, both in Austrailia and in the U.S.
And isn't it odd? Both areas were historically TAKEN OVER by whites, yet their descendants complain about any form of retribution or equilibrium among their 'minority' brethren.
Sad, really.
Are you kidding me? I agree with that.
Designing and or building something does not make you an engineer! Is the guy at Quiznos as sandwich engineer because be designs sandwiches? Are you an engineer because you design computer programs? See the similarity?
For the most part CS people have no idea what they're missing versus someone with a real engineering degree. I took classes in both Computer Science and Computer Engineering in college. The CS department was in the College of Sciences. The Computer Engineering department was in the College of Engineering. The two colleges (and their associate programs) could not have been more different. The CS program felt very much like Math or Physics. The CE program felt like EE or MechE. This is not a subtle thing...the differences permeate the students' education from day one!
"Liechtenstein is the world's largest producer of sausage casings, potassium storage units, and false teeth."
As I posted in a reply to someone else ANY student coming from a defined remote area can apply for rental assistance so I would expect aboriginals to be overrepresented in that particular payment. I am also ideologically against race based legislation but in my book pragmatisim trumps ideology and therefore I support laws such as banning the sale of alcohol in aboriginal settlements and the special un-sniffable petrol sold in the outback.
Given the level of misinfomation on aboriginal issues on both sides of the argument I suspect that any political party who tried to streamline the payment system would be painted as racist by their opposition. As an example I don't like Howard but I believe his intentions and actions were noble in the "NT military takeover" and were painted as racist by a large number of people who should have known better.
Just to be clear I don't think you are racists but I admit I was pushing buttons to see how you would react. I appologise for doubting your character.
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
The only reason the loyalty was misplaced was because the CEO screwed them. Had he honored their commitment and worked as hard as possible to save the company and then paid them back dues + bonus/stock their loyalty would have been dead on. Unfortunately they worked for a douchebag. I'm the first person to have no loyalty for a large mega corp but small shops require it. We can't function without the employees giving a damn about the company and the company can't function without giving a damn about their employees.
But how do they know the CEO is a good guy? What is he's a psychopath and the poor worker bee have no hope of discovering in time?
Also, you don't need the CEO to be a bad guy for him to do shitty stuff. Even good people end up looking out for themselves and their immediate families in the end. If it's balls to the walls does Mr. Good and Honorable CEO put a priority on taking care of his worker bees or assuring that he can continue to provide food and shelter for his wife and kids? Human nature and personal experience tells me it will be the latter.
"Liechtenstein is the world's largest producer of sausage casings, potassium storage units, and false teeth."
How many continents do you think there are? Name them.
It's a question of the time. One month? No, sorry. I can't afford that much. I have to eat, and if it all goes wrong I don't want to be living on the street with no rent or food money. One or two weeks? Perhaps. But that would be my financial limit in terms of giving slack to the company when it comes to payroll.
You put too much respect behind food, some of us just eat to live.
GENERATION O98346: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig and remove a random number from the generation. T
Just a pedantic side note: Mike Turner's not the CEO, he's the "VP of Business Development".
This is the MOST disgusting description of Little Caesers' that i've read.
GENERATION O98346: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig and remove a random number from the generation. T
In some situations, you're wrong. A few years ago I had the pleasure of working for a small company that actually did reward my efforts. I worked out of hours for nothing just to get the job done. I didn't expect returns on that. Between unexpected bonuses and stock options (which I never thought would amount to much), I did very nicely out of that job. My point is - although larger companies tend to be as you describe, not all companies screw you over if you put in extra effort.
Did you know that IEEE has a produced an ISO standard covering the knowledge required for Software Engineer?
I'm sure that many people are mis-advertising themselves, but you also have a specific definition of what you consider an "Engineer" to be that is narrower than IEEE definitions (I'm referring to this comment: "it is not engineering").
Seeking an address for the executives or the office location for the American portion of the company. Would the Australian unit be interested in flying pickets?
This situation reminds me of Conrad Black carrying boxes out of the Hollinger offices right in front of G*d, the video cameras and everyone. These guys just believe they are above it all. Modern day libertines.
I don't care why you're posting AC
Not to mention in case anyone hadn't noticed there have been thousands of people laid off in the games industry in the last few months, which makes it harder to get a new games job.
Also the "anti-compete" clause in your contract will probably forbid you from going to another games company (if the boss were not fleeing the country anyway).
I am not sure about the situation in California/Texas/Quebec/BC/Japan would be though.
Do what the americans would do sue. Sue in the australian courts for copyright ownership of all the material instead of payment. Then sue him in the US when he goes to use said copyright material in the US, the game will never get published with out redoing all the work !
I have no sympathy for people who do this and get burned; they're just eroding the leverage the rest of us have.
That said, you need not necessarily demand cash. Stock or bonds will also do, at a rate that takes into consideration the risk of the investment. But if you give a floundering employer a free, unsecured loan you're both a moron and an asshole.
Austudy and Abstudy are different because the situations are radically different. Many Aboriginal people expect to be worked as slaves, beaten and raped in schools. They don't trust us white teachers with their children - after all, that is what happened to them when they went to school. The Austudy paperwork is not suited to people with extended relationship groups, with communal property concepts and relatively fluid addresses.
The so called "extra benefits" for the Indigenes are about equity - providing the opportunity for equality, not equality in itself. Comparing it to the "affirmative action" of the US is misinformed, as there has never been an indigenous African American culture, although there is an interesting hybrid culture in Florida.
How do you steal what you own?
Let me understand this . . . he is the ceo of a company. The company makes a software product. The CEO decides to take the IP from the staff in Australia, not pay them for the work, not pay the Australian tax man. How is this theft again?
There is tax evasion issues for the Australia government. There are creditor issues for the staff.
The staff owns nothing. The staff, according to the articles, are due payment for their services, but they have no claim on the IP.
As crass as this sounds, the staff, upon learning of the tax issues and not getting paid, should have just left and filed a claim for pay.
I'm pretty sure Australia has loser pays, so you won't get stuck with a big lawyers bill if you win.
3. is a BIG gamble. I'd go for 1, or 2 if I can get a lawyer to take the case on contingency.
Anarchists never rule
Britain has been multicultural way longer than three generations. There's documented evidence of African troops from the Roman Empire serving on Hadrians Wall. There were black folk here before the country was even called England. So the extreme right wing politicians need to be a bit careful when they go on about "immigrants" ;-) (you dumb fools, where do you think your ancestors came from? well, it was overseas....).
Aussies, please keep Pauline Hanson, we don't want her. Such a shame we can't refuse her entry. As the parent says, the only positive side of this is her head's going to explode when she realises the UK is as multicultural if not more so than Australia...
"Loyalty is paid for in cash."
Ye Gods, where the hell are my mod points? Why doesn't Slashdot have a "+6 Speaking God's Own Truth" rating? If only I had been raised with that Wisdom, rather than the "Screw-me-now, Screw-me-hard, Screw-me-again-later" "the-Boss-may-not-always-be-right-but-he's-still-the-boss-you-should-always-do-your-very-best" nonsense, it would have saved me untold misery.
Our leaders are forcing us all to become mercenary bastards. And my nation is poorer for it.
To my good friends in Australia, speaking on behalf of the U.S., if you ever catch this schmuck, we'd be honored if you'd let us pay for the rope.
He put his boots up on the table and made a face. "The sig," he smirked. "You can waste your life in search of the sig."
Michael: What's all this?
George Sr.: Computer stuff from the office.
Michael: No, no, no, no, pop. You're not doing another one of those Black Fridays, are you? The mass firings?
Narrator: Before firing his employees, George Sr. would be sure to clear the office of its valuables.
Ted: So when do we get to see our fancy new offices?
George Sr.: [closing the truck door] When you get your fancy new jobs. You're all fired.
Narrator: The employees never saw it coming, although their first task was to unload their equipment from a truck.
George Sr.: No, it's not black Friday although I did enjoy those.
I, personally, will happily pay $25 for a good quality pizza. Others seem happy with that $5 crap.
For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
Also you can be looking for work while working for free with the old job. Its easier to get a job while you are employed. You don't get taken advantage of as much that way.
http://michaelsmith.id.au
Did he have an approved change request? If not, he's in BIG trouble.
The employees are owed for the time they worked, and nothing more.
The employees are owed, depending on the jurisdiction they're in, their back-pay, (possibly) severance, interests, and also possibly punitive damages. Except now, instead of the corporate entity being liable for it, the CEO (through his criminal actions) is personally liable for it. If I were the employees, I would be scouring the World for any personal Real Estate the CEO or his wife have attached to their names (just in case there is any).
In New Zealand, the IRD(Inland Revenue) take the view that unpaid wages is unpaid tax to them.
If this occurred in New Zealand, the premises would be under IRD control by lunchtime.
In post Patriot Act America, the library books scan you.
> Also every chineese immigrant I have ever met speaks english, it's a requirement to get into the country
That's absolutely not true. Australia does not mandate that you speak english as a requirement of immigrating to the country.
A few of my Aussie neighbours are of chinese descent and arrived here in the last few years, I can tell you flat out that they do not speak english. I work with a guy who came to Australia from China 10 years ago who learnt English here, didn't speak a word of English until he got here. There are a number of stores local to me that are run by Vietnamese and Chinese people who hardly speak a word of English..
Austraila has never mandated English speaking as an entry requirement -- we have elderly Greek families living down the street who have lived here for 20+ years that STILL don't speak English. There are stores in Richmond with only Vietnamese labelling/signage -- no English whatsoever.
Melbourne is the most multicultural city in the world. Saying that all people here speak English is complete rubbish.
Sorry for what? It doesn't change anything I said.
I was replying to the idea of that there's something wrong with "He just made a copy, nothing was lost. It's not stealing".
And, in this case indeed nothing that falls under the idea of "IP" was lost, whether you believe that "IP" is something that should exist or not. If it exists, you as an employee signed a contract agreeing that all of it belongs to the company. It can't be stolen from you because it's not your in the first place. And if you don't believe in it, then something that doesn't exist can't be stolen from you either.
Sure, crimes were committed here, but none of them have anything to do with copyright.
I pointed out that the current copyright laws don't favour the artist, they favour the corportations most of the time
Sorry, no. The copyright doesn't just favor the artist, it absolutely, 100% protects the artist and only the artist. Until or if, that is, the artist decides to take deliberate, personal action to assign those rights to someone else. There is nothing in copyright law that in any way (except for the passage of time after the death of the artist) provides any part of the artist's copyrighted works to be under the control of someone else. The only exception would be "fair use" reproductions, and that's a completely separate discussion.
The only reason that artists can be in the position to negotiate for cash in exchange for copyrighted material is because the copyright law is so strongly in their favor.
Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
The are a lot of people from Asian countries on the Gold Coast, many of them come here to study and a lot of them stay. Australia is clearly not part of Asia, as correctly pointed out by others. Having close trade relationships and, in some cases, security ties means that we participate in forums with Asian countries. China is a largest trading partner, they buy just about everything we export and we end buying a lot from them, sometimes cheap crap. It is perfectly normal to find groups of Asian people in certain areas or businesses, as happens in many countries.
While we wouldn't try to compete with Canada but Australia is a generally friendly country where almost everyone really doesn't care where you come from. We even accept US tourists when running low on crocodile food...
Uhm, I'm guessing you're not in the US. You're certainly not in California (which is currently at war against small business).
I won't join Slashcott. OTOH, If Beta goes live, I just won't be back until it's fixed. Sorry Dice.
In theory. In practice, sign up for a programming job, and now the protection is for your employer. Sign up with a label, and the protection moves to the label. And so on.
If you want to keep that protection, you need to pretty much replace your employer, by running your own software company, label, etc. And few people have the resources to do that. And, if the alternative to selling your rights to a label is becoming one, that IMO indicates pretty clearly that things aren't really geared towards the independent artist.
Huh? No, that's just the barely minimum reasonable situation to be in: to be able to negotiate payment. I don't see how you could even have any less than this.
If things were really set to favour the artist, the artist would have the record company by the balls and not the other way, and would be able to for instance, at any time pack and leave without penalty, and sell their stuff through a company they liked better.
Option #4:
Encrypt the entire codebase the minute you don't get paid, and just sit on the key till you do.
You are confusing the normal disadvantge (in any business relationship) one has in being naive and inexperienced. It's got nothing whatsoever to do with copyright law, and everything to do with the inability of an ignorant (or lazy) person to see the big picture and think about consequences. It's exactly the same set of issues that come into play when people buy a car, or sign up for a two-year mobile phone contract. Each party has something the other wants. Foolish, lazy, or naive people will rarely have the skills or interest in choosing the right deal for themselves. Don't conflate intellectual weakness or lack of business savvy with being a copyright holder - you're confusing correlation and causation.
Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
I want a snowjob :)
this list actually covers what you'd need to know as a COMPUTER ENGINEER to pass the fundamentals of engineering exam
I was with you until here. My degree was in Computer Engineering, and we were never required to take fluid dynamics (Where is the Z transform in your list? In case you hadn't noticed; our controllers are all discrete since the 70's ;-). Understanding the theory behind the PID controller is something that I would look for). I'm hard pressed to see how fluid dynamics would matter outside of Mechanical Engineering? I agree with your general premise that programmers in the engineering world benifit from engineering knowledge. I work in a company that makes SCADA software, and we have a mix of people from engineering and computer-science backgrounds. Some observations.
Engineers can make lousy programmers. Believe it or not, there is lot of programming theory that is important and not taught in an engineering degree. Much of the worst, most unmaintainable code I have ever seen has been written by very good engineers, who simply have no grasp of programming concepts beyond the basic. On the flip side the engineers in our team are invaluble due to their understanding of how the end-user (who are also engineers), needs to use the product to get the job done. Finally, I'd like to say that our most productive coders are guys from pure programming backgrounds. This is not to say that some of the guys from engineering backgrounds are not productive, it just seems to me that there is a particular type of person that is attracted to programming alone and can produce astonishing amounts of quality code in a short period of time. Perhaps the type of person who is attracted to engineering just isn't the conducive to this? In our company, we need the mix (and I like having the mix), but if I were creating some kind of web startup, I wouldn't employ guys with an engineering background.
I sympathise with the employees. I went through a similar situation in 2007.
GEERS is your friend*, and the liquidator will help you with the information needed to complete your GEERS application. Unfortunately GEERS doesn't cover unpaid super and most companies in these circumstances just fail to pay super and accumulate fines for late super payments rather than the actual amount.
As the law currently stands it very simple for dodgy CEO's to thieve the IP and take operations overseas. The ATO and ASIC are either too slow, bogged down with redtape or just plain toothless.
The sad fact is CEO's/directors don't even need to move overseas. All you need to do is have a parent company overseas that the IP is assigned to. The local company then operates on the smell of an oily rag, runs up liabilities and even gets government RD grants/tax rebates. When creditors/employees come to collect, there's nothing, but a bit of office equipment and furniture. It's even possible to start a new company and then buy the salvaged office assets of the previous company and even trade from the very same office and the ATO and ASIC don't even batter an eye lid.
*As for GEERS and the liquidator, chase them ruthlessly. The department/program is biased to the liquidators findings. If there's incomplete, incorrect or absent employee entitlement records (as is often the case with poorly run companies), GEERS will not pay you a cent, if the liquidator can't provide support or evidence of he amounts. (I found out the hard way and lost 2 years AL)
All the best with your fight.
Area51 - We are watching...
My experience is that it's best to take a loss as soon as you realise that you are in a losing situation. The longer you leave it, the larger the loss will get.
May as well fuck them and post all the code on the net. Use what's been done here to start a company owned here. Questionable what IP they own when people haven't been paid.
Originally Interzone was given a grant by the Western Australian goverment of $500k, so this has blown up very big on the news there,
The Western Australian government deserves what it gets, if it can't figure out how to make its state an attractive place to do business and needs to resort to this kind of payoff.
And the employees should release their "copies" online.
Don't over complicate it.
A programmer is someone who writes code for the machine.
A engineer is someone who creates the machine.
A programming engineer is someone who can do both.
"If this was such a big deal, ACA and TT and the rest of the commercial bottom-feeders would be all over it, especially given that it's foreigners ripping off hard-working Australians."
Wether such a story gets the attention of ACA/TT would depend entirely on the political and commercial affiliations of said forigner.
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
A really good documentary that relates to this situation. The Take.
However, as it is there to correct a past wrong, the hard part is deciding when it is still or no longer needed.
How about never needed? I'm not the one to punish for something someone else's grandfather did to another person's grandfather. Affirmative Action is totally ridiculous and should never be implemented by any company or government. The merits of a worker is their talent, not the colour of their skin or where they come from.
I do, however, agree with giving the person free education. Of course, this may sound a bit two-faced, but I believe very strongly in education, and any chance that we can get people educated or motivated to be educated should be embraced whole-heartedly.
in girum imus nocte et consumimur igni
In a sane country (or with some sane workers) the worker's union would occupy the offices with the CEO in it. Disconnect water, power, connectivity. And wait while he runs out of toilet-paper. "Do you want to talk about the unpayed wages yet? No? Ok. Here's another McBacon with cheese."
And at the same time getting the court to force the company to bankruptcy and freeze all assets, in order to pay for those wages.
Still, a lot of harm could have been prevented by the employees simply finding the employer in breach of the employment contract when he didn't pay up that first month.
I used to be of this same perspective when I was younger and more naive. AA has nothing to do with "punitive" measures for your "grandfather's" wrongs, so don't misinterpret it that way. AA has to do with the imbalance/inequality in opportunity available to otherwise equal people. Yes, the merits of a person -- I agree. But what if that person never had the opportunity you had because of a pervasive and persistent bias culture?
As I said before, this isn't the case anymore in many places, but it certainly is in others. Even in the public, free K-12 system in the US there are still significant inequalities in access to resources, talent, technology, etc. that are entirely tied to historical inequities and patterns. Much has been done and is being done to overcome that, but it is hard.
The wealthy and established (majority and historically white) will always want the "best" for their children -- better than what anyone else is getting. It is virtually impossible to "match" opportunity to develop the "skills" you speak of among otherwise equal babies. This is what makes class/caste systems persist.
Now, I am a white male in the US who has suffered under reverse discrimination and AA, so don't think I'm pleading my own case. But I see where my "upper-middle-class" upbringing has tremendous advantages over a multitude of others. And I have recognized raw talent in people that is simply lacking any development and refinement due to unequal opportunity.
Yet, I remain on the fence on the issue of AA and I think it may be approaching the point where its negatives outweigh its positives... we'll see.
Come play Moral Decay!
I notice when a business owner makes off with half a mil in a assets (unpaid wages) it's tough titties but if one of the employees had done the same thing to him the frickin' justice dept extradites his ass and throws him in jail.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
Look, from past discussions with you, I am certain that you are mentally retarded, but c'mon, its pizzaaanalogyguy. Click on the name, see all of his other posts, and stop being a complete dumbass.
I would expect anyone considering business with this man (including anyone in Ireland, or elsewhere) to take heed and note that he is not trustworthy.
Unfortunately in this day and age that seems to be a point in favor of working with someone for a lot of CEOs.
If the guy you're working with is honest, it's going to be harder to pull a scam on him. If he's greedy and shifty, it'll be easier to con him. Plus if he has a history of bad behavior, you know what to look for to see where he's trying to con you. If his history smells like a rose, that might just mean that he's a better scammer than you are and you're going to get blindsided by him because you don't know where to look for the knife that's coming for your back.
Once you realize that most successful corporate executives have the exact same skillset as a good con-artist, the business world becomes much, much easier to understand. And it disappoints you far, far less as well.
You obviously haven't seen his posts before. He is most definitely a pizza themed troll (why?!).
It isn't a language barrier - his english is evidently too good to "not know any better" and to use a different topic branch to discuss it.
His stories are not even consistent and always pretty lame, he stretches it too far getting a pizza theme to these stories.
Also, he should use a different name - he rarely makes a pizza analogy, just a pizza troll
Thank you for actually explaining this situation rather than just saying "HIS NAME IS PIZZAANALOGYGUY!!!"
WARNING! This girl exceeds the MAXIMUM SAFE standards established by the FDA for BRATTINESS
The management moved to Ireland? That's a bad place to go bankrupt, and a good place to sue creditors. Ireland still has bankruptcy law left over from the days when English landlords ran the country. Creditors can put a company or an individual into involuntary bankruptcy. There's nothing like "debtor in possession" bankruptcy (US "Chapter 11") in Ireland. Personal bankruptcy? The debtor may retain "such articles of clothing, household furniture, bedding, tools and equipment of his trade or profession or other necessities for himself, his wife, his children, and other dependent relatives living with him, as he may select, not exceeding in value EUR 3,175."
It gets worse. Bankruptcies put individuals on a public blacklist. Officers of companies that go bankrupt can't be officers of a company again. Individuals can't get credit of more than EUR 630.
The employees need to get a judgment in Australia against the CEO, which shouldn't be hard since he fled the country with unpaid employees. Then hire an aggressive collection agency in Dublin. ("100% success rate for many clients. No collection, no fee.") There are international collection agencies, such as Global Credit Solutions, with branches in 80 countries. They have offices in both Australia and Ireland.
You do realise that that *is* how governments attract businesses don't you? Tax concessions and development grants are investments that are paid off with extra employment for locals and long term tax dollar returns... at least when the companies deign to pay their tax.
Yeah, they do give amazing head. I especially like the bit where they stick a finger up your..... errrrr, never mind.
So what you're saying is that it's cool to con people because they're giving their money up willingly?
Well.. have I got a bridge to sell you!
But then I realized the cable was blue, so I only gave it one star. I hate blue.
You don't have locally born asian people who are good at math(s - with the S on the end as used by civilised nations) and computer science?
I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
Oh god, that allegory of a cowboy is actually more of a reality. One boss regularly came into work with a "Yee Haw" t-shirt before sitting down to play Crysis for the rest of the day (and every day, sparing time for the occasional hollow speech).