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IE Not Faring Well In the EU Ballot
unixcrab writes "Most PC users hit the web using Internet Explorer by default, simply because that's what came along with Windows. Now, after antitrust investigations, European users get a choice of browser to install via ballot screen, and initial reports are not good for 'ol IE. According to Statcounter, IE use in France has dropped 2.5 percent since last month's implementation of the ballot, 1.3 percent in Italy, and 1 percent in Britain. It's still early days, and it'll take more than this to chip away from IE's 62 percent lead in the browser war, but it's certainly not a good trend for Microsoft. With that in mind, we're going to have to ask you to place your bets now."
But the way most people think is
-- Sorry, I can't think of anything funny to say here.
Hmm...so when given a choice, people sometimes choose different browsers? This is news? This sounds like the argument Netscape made back when they were suing Microsoft here in the USA...
Palm trees and 8
I guess most people don't care, and select one of the browser at random, or click the first one. Of course, given that IE has the biggest market share, it is going to drop.
For the statistics to mean anything, they should tell what percentage of the people choose which browser on the ballot, otherwise it's meaningless.
Even if most people are choosing IE, it is still likely for IE to fall. So where are the stats about what the users choose on the ballot itself?
1% drop? That's all?
I'm sorry but this does not seem as 'good news' for fans of IEs demise. You are saying that out of 62 of the users who are getting the ballot box, in the past month 61 have chosen IE and one has chosen to switch?
Nature journal lied in Britannica vs Wikipedia Ask to retrac
Proof that IE's popularity only comes from it being the default.
They're still allowed to use the internet in Europe?
why would I care which browser is the most popular?
did you forget to take your meds?
This is what happens in a socialist paradise like Europe.
The "Evil Corporation's" web browser is forced to showcase it's rivals on an equal footing. The best product wins and free market capitalism dies a little.
Glenn Beck just urinated on his producer.
IE's share has been dropping for years. How much has it dropped in, say, North America during the same period, with no "ballot" to influence things? Wouldn't surprise me if it was about the same.
I installed the update but was never asked to choose a browser I guess this is because I already had firefox set as my default so the update never even started up on my PC to ask me the question!!
In a way, this will probably HELP microsoft because this means less malware infections, which will make their O/S look more secure.
Many people have no idea what any of these are.
"Oh. I search with Google. This must be what I use."
Go green: turn off your refrigerator.
Now if there could just be a "Pick your OS" pull-down on first boot ...
So far, MSIE still is getting on 100% despite the 'browser ballot' Yep. Even though the antitrust complaint found that Microsoft was hurting Europe by using it monopoly on desktop OEMs and illegal tying to establish and maintain a monopoly on web browsers.
The illegal tying is still happening, and each and every instance of MS Windows makes the problem worse. Firefox ran a campaign a few years ago, "take back the web". To do that, MSIE has to go. To get rid of MSIE, Windows has to go. Germany, France and others have advocated dropping the problem. If every country made a push to get Windows off their networks, both public and private, billions would be save each quarter by avoiding the malware that is part and parcel of the Windows experience.
Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
With that in mind, we're going to have to ask you to place your bets now.
Ok, I bet on Microsoft.
it's not entirely robbIE's fault, as he also must wear the party 'blinders' to stay in 'business'.
as far as what's really going on/stuff that matters; the lights are coming up all over now. never a better time to consult with/trust in your creators re; anything that really matters at all.
If statistical results are quoted to tenths of a percent, e.g., "1.3 percent in Italy" and there is no backup data, including a statement on sample sizes or significance, then I dismiss it as the work of a marketing department hack.
For the statistics to mean anything, they should tell what percentage of the people choose which browser on the ballot, otherwise it's meaningless.
That'd certainly be an interesting number. Another interesting number might be the number of people exposed to the ballot screen---it tells you how much to trust the first number. Ask a statistician, or ask yourself this: if two people had been exposed, and both chose firefox, would you predict a 100% market share for firefox or would you think firefox got lucky and wait for more data to come in?
It might also be interesting to know how browser changes have happened historically---how do the switch rates develop over time? Should we expect to see more or less people leaving IE in the near and far future? How big are the gross and net switchovers? How big are they going to become?
"2.5 percent" is a really nice number. It sounds pleasant, like 2.4 children. But exactly, exactly what does it mean?
Germany showed a slight increase:
This article is a blatant troll. Shall we feed it? I'm thinking yes...
...so when given a choice, people sometimes choose different browsers? This is news? This sounds like the argument
Actually, the case was "United States v. Microsoft", which means that it was the government of the United States of America coming down on his Billness for actively and maliciously going out of his way to screw up the market.
Again, the browser ballot does not make any kind of remedy, not even a little, against the original complaint in the EU. MSIE is still bundled on Windows and even if you install Chromium or Firefox, MSIE is still there making botnets. Many regions have good environmental regulations and are able to prevent pollution. Windows can be treated the same way.
Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
Many people have no idea what any of these are.
"Oh. I search with Google. This must be what I use."
There's "internet" in "Internet Explorer". And they recognize the icon.
I presume the summary means "bets on the winner".
I'm hoping for no winner: a heterogeneous market where people use one of a number of standards-compliant browsers, and I think it could actually be what happens.
# cat
Damn, my RAM is full of llamas.
All the bullshit from here in the US and over in Europe, and god only knows how much tax money went to suing M$ for its evil ways
I think the two billion dollar in fines Microsoft has received so far covers those expenses nicely.
Pretty good is actually pretty bad.
The ballot has 12 browsers organized into two groups. Each group is randomized amongst itself for purposes of display order. The first group is always displayed first and consists of: Internet Explorer, Google Chrome, Apple Safari, Firefox, and Opera The second group consists of: Maxthon, Avant Browser, AOL, K-Meleon, Flock, Sleipnir, and Slim
What's the margin of error on their data? How much does it fluctuate from month to month? Did any governments do any major new deployments, or change their firewall settings to mask what kind of browser their users were connecting with? Until several agencies start reporting consistent numbers I will remain skeptical of anything over 0.5%
moox. for a new generation.
I'm not exactly sure what you're complaining about? Seems to me that it would be reasonable that if you already have another browser installed, there's no reason for Windows to bother you with a ballot screen to select another browser? I think I'd be kind of annoyed, really, if it did.
Why is Mozilla waiting until 30th before releasing the patch?
The beta patch is out now. Mozilla is waiting to upgrade the general public in order to make sure the patch doesn't introduce worse problems.
{snip}it'll take more than this to chip away from IE's 62 percent lead in the browser war,{/snip}
Before we work on getting rid of the whole OS (good idea BTW ;) ), we should start by getting the effin' journalists to check their numbers and do some decent reporting - IE isn't even at 62%, much less @ a 62% lead over *any* other browser... The *only* thing IE leads in is, as you have pointed out, default installs.
"...there are some things that can beat smartness and foresight. Awkwardness and stupidity can." ~ Mark Twain
Starts to have a percentage or two tick UP, will we see a /. story about it?
Oh who am I kidding that will never happen. (The story that is)
On one side, I understand how competition in the browser space is good for advancement, but the whole concept of why market share matters perplexes me. How do free browsers, which do nothing but display webpages, make ANY money whatsoever? They seem to be a gigantic money sink to me. The only thing I can think of is the default search bar generating ad revenue, but thats it. What the hell is the point of comparing "market share" of something like this? I don't see how this translates into anything benefiting the company in the lead.
It's not only the fastest, best looking and best performing browser, it's also the one with low marketshare with loads of room to grow.
I'm recommending anyone that asks me what to choose, to try that. Simply because it's more secure and better than Firefox and does not have the privacy problems of Chrome, and Safari, is well just rubbish and doing what Opera did 5 years back.
Someone remind me who that is?
Lacking <sarcasm> tags,
You have to realize that these anti-trust actions were lobbied for and designed to benefit competitors, not to help the consumer.
For example, Sun probably lived an extra year thanks to MS's settlement.
Glenn Beck has never denied urinating on his producer.
There. That's better...
1% drop? That's all?
Nope, it's not even a 1% drop. It's a 0% drop in marketshare, on Windows machines. MSIE still is getting on 100% of Windows machines sold in Europe (or elsewhere) despite the 'browser ballot' Yep ,that's 100%. Even though the antitrust complaint found that Microsoft was hurting Europe by using it monopoly on desktop OEMs and illegal tying to establish and maintain a monopoly on web browsers the remedy does not include addressing the original complaint.
The browser 'ballot' does not make any kind of remedy, not even a little, involving removal of MSIE from the desktop monopoly. MSIE is still bundled on Windows, even if you install Chromium, Firefox or one of the other extras. So, if you are a big enough asshole to still run Windows, your choices go like this
The illegal tying is still happening, and each and every instance of MS Windows makes the problem worse. Firefox ran a campaign a few years ago, "take back the web". To do that, MSIE has to go. To get rid of MSIE, Windows has to go. Germany, France and others have advocated dropping the problem. If every country made a push to get Windows off their networks, both public and private, billions would be save each quarter by avoiding the malware that is part and parcel of the Windows experience.
Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
As a UK resident and IT specialist I've seen the this silly browser ballot thing rather allot.
I've found that it just confuses users.
Its a great way to install other browsers, but it doesn't uninstall IE if you choose a different one.
Whats really stupid is the way that if you choose IE from the list it tries to download and install IE even if its already on your system.
I just tell folks who are happy with IE to delete it. If most people are doing this it would account for the low IE results.
This works as well
$ rm -Rf C:\windows
"Suppose you were an idiot...and suppose you were a member of Congress...but I repeat myself." Mark Twain
Really? Ghosh, things must have changed dramatically in Windows-land. Last time I checked (granted, it's a while ago) you had to re-install Windows more than once a month, on the average.
This is still an on going process I would have thought that it would be too early to tell which browser is to become dominant.
Basically this week will get the ball rolling next week people will decide to switch to another or back again and we will only get to see a true picture when things settle down again.
(Interestingly, I have not received the ballot screen yet, although I set my standard browser to Internet Explorer before downloading the "browser choice" update. Maybe Windows realises I hardly ever use it and that I have already installed Chrome, Firefox and Opera?)
I am willing to bet that within the next year and a half, firefox or chrome will be in the lead. Opera may either be third or fourth and IE will have a definite shift in it's standings. Regarding the ballot itself how does it work? I'm a US resident as such I have not seen it. Is it just an internet window that pops up and suggests other browsers? Or is the ballot itself downloaded onto the machines along with the browsers? I am merely curious for memory issues and whether or not it takes up space.
>>>Why is Mozilla waiting
.
I always knew the reason Internet Explorer won the 1990s browser war was because it was the default install. NOT because it was superior (it wasn't - IE was shit compared to Netscape), but because newbies equated IE to internet without realizing alternatives like Mozilla or Netscape or Opera existed.
NOW that Explorer is not the default, it's losing ground as consumers are finally being told, "You have a choice". I expect within 3-4 years IE will drop below 50% in the EU. Although I'm currently using Opera for its Dialup Turbo compression, I've always preferred the "Mosaic" way of doing things:
- Mosaic (on my Amiga 500 and Quadra Mac)
- Netscape (developed by the Mosaic programmers) (on Quadra and PC)
- Mozilla
- Firefox or seaMonkey
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
The browser poll only appears if the user has Internet Explorer listed as their default browser, so the only result that can come from the poll is a drop in IE usage.
I always knew the reason Internet Explorer won the 1990s browser war was because it was the default install. NOT because it was superior (it wasn't - IE was shit compared to Netscape), but because newbies equated IE to internet without realizing alternatives like Mozilla or Netscape or Opera existed.
Yeah, except for the fact that Netscape 6 was a buggy piece of shit and almost universally panned. It's not at all amazing that it was at around it's release that IE surpassed it. So basically you're making up bullshit and reinventing history.
What is the margin of error on those browser stats? I doubt a 1% drop from one month to the next is statistically significant.
Even if it is, it was inevitable that there would be a drop. Only IE users get the choice screen and it would be incredible if they all chose IE, so some people are going to switch from IE to something else. A 1% drop sounds extremely small to me, but I'm not sure how far the choice screen has rolled out yet.
I was one of those people who kept downloading Netscape in spite of Internet Explorer. What did it for me was how you could resize a window in IE and the page would redraw right away, instead of waiting till the whole page loaded like Netscape. Something with the word "reflow" in it, I don't remember the name. I think I switched back to Mozilla after they added that.
>>>Netscape 6 was a buggy piece of shit
(1) I said 1990s. That is not 1990s.
(2) Yes it was buggy because it was actually an America Online product (after AOL bought-out the nearly-bankrupt Netscape). It did eventually evolve into Firefox, so it wasn't complete crap - just released too early (2002).
(3) The *90s* versions of Netscape (4 and earlier) were superior to any IE product of the time. While IE was constantly crashing for me, Netscape 4 and earlier were rock steady, and offered lots of nifty features like frames and scripts. - So why did these superior products drop from the 1st place position they had held.
Because IE was on the desktop by default.
It held a monopoly anti-competitive position. Perhaps if the EU had made its "browser ballot" decision in the 90s, the browser war would have ended differently (with a 50-50 Netscape-IE split, or 33-33-33 NS/IE/Opera split).
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
My current stats for March on http://farnorthracing.com/
Firefox: 50%
IE: 32%
Chrome:9%
Safari: 8%
Opera: 2%
Numbers accurate to 1% due to rounding.
DG
Want to learn about race cars? Read my Book
'rm' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.
Netscape 6.0 was based on Mozilla 0.6 (I remember it was starting to be usable by then, but definitely not for the faint of heart), Netscape 6.1 was based on Mozilla 0.9, so it is hardly surprising that is was buggy.
Mozilla 1.0 (June 2002) better than IE6 (August 2001). By the time Mozilla 1.4 came out (June 2003), there was no comparison.
Of course, that doesn't matter much, since the Browser Wars (round 1) where really lost in the Netscape 4.x/IE5.x era, due to a combination of "default browser" and IE 5.x being pretty good for the time.
Climate Progress - Hell and High Water
Isn't it more likely that these small percentage of people are the only ones savvy, and risk taking enough to try something different? You could probably have a similar poll asking what their favorite beverage was, and if they'd consider switching to a list of items and still get similar results.
When the moderators are trolls, who moderates the moderators?!
Yes in 1999 it was effectively over. IE went above 50% and Netscape fell below 40% (with the remaining 10% being Mosaic, Opera, and other small browsers). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Browser_wars#The_first_browser_war
IE won because it had been included, for free, with Windows 95 Plus and Windows 98. Many users didn't even realize their was an alternate choice, so Netscape gradually disappeared as people upgraded to this new OS and simply clicked on the icon marked "Internet".
And that was why Microsoft found itself drug before the U.S. DOJ for antitrust violations. If the DOJ had come-up with the "browser choice" window like the EU did, maybe Netscape would have survived the onslaught rather than going nearly-bankrupt, and becoming just another division of AOL.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
Try installing these and add the directory to your path.
upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
Don't forget that Netscape 4 wasn't much better.
That's the news article *I* want to see.
Looks like vigourous enforcement of antitrust laws that have real teeth in them has finally brought the mighty Microsoft to its knees.
By contrast, America adopted the losertarian "let-the-market-decide" theology.
Hmm . . . guess which one works to, you know, actually promote things like competition and a truly free and open market?
If 90% of people use IE, companies won't give a heck to your OS/Browser combination. If you can browse all the web/do govt. things/shop with your own choice of browser, you gotta thank Firefox and its market share for it. If your cellphone browser (lets say Nokia browser) became usable with several m.example.com sites popping up lately, you can thank iPhone browsing fashion.
So, most popular doesn't matter too much but the fact that many popular browsers/engines exist really matters. Randomness created by this ballot even while most of people may choose IE can matter to a person who uses Firefox/Konqueror on FreeBSD.
Funny thing is, people tend to think MS is really unhappy to lose market share. mshtml.dll is what mattered, now it is impossible to think about a Windows OS without MShtml.dll, thousands including MS rivals linking to that dll as well as millions of intranets which can't function without IE/ActiveX.
MS already won, less end user desktop marketshare could be a good thing for them. Users already run their OS. If idiots in management figured this out back in 2003, their image would be a lot better.
I am curious to know which local stores sells an average performing and average priced laptop or desktop without having money sent to micro$soft for purchasing the computer. When I go to Best Buy or Fry's, I see no average computer for sell that does not come with a micro$oft operating system. This is definitely not a choice. I say average because I do not want to spend a lot and I do not want a piece of crap. Most people being lazy or a bunch of dumbshits end up supporting the convicted monopolist.
There aint no way to uninstall IE because those shitheads at micro$oft purposefully tied IE into the OS to purposefully make it difficult for the DOJ to appropriately punish those folks. Although, it appears that they paid of the bush administration off as I do not really remember any meaningful punishment and they still have about 95% of the market.