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The Fashion Industry As a Model For IP Reform
Scrameustache writes "In this 15-minute TED talk, Johanna Blakley addresses a subject alien to most here — fashion — but in a way sure to grab our attention. The lesson is about how the fashion industry's lack of copyright protection can teach other industries about what copyright means to innovation. And yes, she mentions open source software. There is one killer slide at 12:20 comparing the gross sales of low-IP-protection industries with those of films and books and music. If you want to know more, or if you prefer text, the Ready To Share project website should give you all the data you crave on the subject."
I had a kneejerk thing to say here about software piracy, but then I realised that in my rush to be relevant, I hadn't RTFA and it was irrelevant.
Yes, I know, this is slashdot, I should GTFO with an attitude like this!
I am one of many. My idea is not unique, nor do I expect my voice alone to sway you. I speak in a chorus of opinion.
A not too wild guess is that this will probably remedied in the wrong way; by adding more IP protection to the fashion industry, rather than following their example.
http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=KrsEAAAAEBAJ&dq=denim
http://www.google.com/patents?lr=&q=fashion+clothing&spell=1&oi=spell
http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=nX4CAAAAEBAJ&dq=clothing
for just a sampler.
you talk to any of the young, creative designers that are moving things forward, and they will tell you about how all of their designs are being ripped off by mall stores.
If I talked to such people, I'd firat ask which rules they used to prove their desings are completely original and the mall's are rip-offs.
In fashion, women are required to constantly buy new clothes lest they be considered "frumpy". Last year's clothes are perfectly good, quality-wise, but a culture has been created by which anyone who wears them is subject to public ridicule. The point of all this is to keep the fashion industry's pockets full. What kind of developer, oops I mean designer, doesn't enjoy working on new designs? They want everyone buying the latest greatest design, even if it's not as good as last year's.
Likewise in software, where upgrades are mandatory even though the current software works just fine. "But it's old tech!" the developer shouts at his utterly stupid users. "Why won't you upgrade? I really enjoyed working on this!" I recently asked a question on a support forum about Drupal. I didn't get my question answered, as the developers immediately discussed the fact I was using the "old tech" version (5) and the entire discussion became about when I was going to upgrade to the latest greatest version (7). Why should I? My software works just fine and customers are happy. Security upgrades are more like obscurity upgrades. "Because it's last year's fashion, daaahling"
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
People copy fashions of high end items. Most people can't afford those anyway. They're too expensive. So no sales are lots.
Clothing is a physical good. If you can make one instance of it, you still need to repeat the whole manufacturing process to make more. This is not true of digital information.
The value of a good drops with the availability of the good. Digital information can be replicated infinitely. Clothing is much harder to replicate.
The value of clothing drops dramatically within 3 months because fashions are seasonal. So if you can replicate it after 1 year, no one cares. This is not true of software, movies, music, etc. A lot of IP retains its value for decades or longer.
The young, creative, and potentially starving defsigners should of course be looked after. A little bit of basic income for everyone would solve all these starving artist problems.
The upside of all this IP "theft" is of course that we do get nice desings on the cheap in the malls.
(That most clothes are produced without regard to the environment or working conditions and decent pay is another issue, of course.)
Some of my favourite people are from th US; Vonnegut, Chomsky, Bill Hicks.
And you might want to tone down that "Obviously you haven't heard of *obscure reference*." No, we haven't, and you could consider explaining it instead of telling us how whatever it is makes you sympathetic to megacorps enforcing IP laws. I doubt you'll get a lot of sympathy for that, although I'm sure that wasn't your goal, withering contempt for anyone who's not in "your industry" seemed to be the goal.
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
First off, fashion occupies a unique niche in culture and purchasing decisions. As noted http://www.publicknowledge.org/node/597on a relevent blog "The fashion industry profits by setting trends in clothing, and then inducing consumers to follow those trends. This process leads us to treat clothing as a status-conferring good to be replaced once the fashion changes, rather than as a durable good to be replaced only when all the buttons fall off. Trend-driven consumption is good for the fashion industry, because it sells more clothing. " That nature is hardly applicable to software, literature, film, or design.
The New York times http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/04/us/04fashion.html?_r=2&hp=&oref=slogin&pagewanted=allran a story that included this telling quote, "“If I see something on Style.com, all I have to do is e-mail the picture to my factory and say, ‘I want something similar, or a silhouette made just like this,’ ” Ms. Anand said. The factory, in Jaipur, India, can deliver stores a knockoff months before the designer version."
An NPR story http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1434815noted that "it's expensive and risky to actually create new designs. It's cheaper and easier to simply knock off successful ones."
The entire point of IP is to encourage social and cultural development through the protection of initial investment. The fashion industry demonstrates what happens when IP is weakened or non-existant - a disincentive to create and develop and a thriving copy-culture.
And yet I wonder how many of those young independent designers would be in business for themselves if the big chains already held patent thickets to prevent emerging competition. I wonder how many of them would find they could only make a living if they worked directly for one of the big chains in such a world.
And I wonder how many of them would see the change as an improvement, if fashion patents were to be allowed.
You are absolutely right. I do find that hard to believe
Don't let THEM immanentize the Eschaton!
I didn't get my question answered, as the developers immediately discussed the fact I was using the "old tech" version (5) and the entire discussion became about when I was going to upgrade to the latest greatest version (7).
7 is still alpha. I wouldn't use that for production system. What's more, most modules are still unavailable for 7.
Heck, some useful modules are even unavailable for 6, such as views_ticker. Or are there any other tickers that show titles of nodes of a view? There are plenty which show all nodes of a certain type, or featuring certain taxonomy keywords, or from a hand-picked list, but no tickers based on a view. For that you have to stay with 5.
With drupal, you've got a good excuse for wearing last year's fashion: your favourite module or theme is still unavailable.
Well, clearly you didn't watch the video.
They have interview clips with the young, creative fashion designers. As one such designer said of the mall store rip-offs: "Well, the mall customers are not our customers. It doesn't really matter."
Or something to that effect.
I agree. It's a whole other ball game for people just starting out. It's easy to make money solely off of your brand if you're already established. But is it really all that easy for the small guy to make it in a highly copyrighted industry? Then it's up to whoever has the most lawyers, and the resources that need to be put into that holds the entire industry back.
She said (paraphrasing), "Open Source. Those people decided they wanted nothing to do with copyright."
She's a little bit wrong there when you consider that the GNU General Public License uses copyright as the vehicle through which the license is enforced. What she meant to say was that the free software movement requires people be able to copy and modify their software as part of the definition of software freedom. Not quite as good for a sound bite but a truer meaning for those who care.
TED talks might be "ideas worth spreading," but unfortunately Johanna Blakley is spreading nothing but half-truths and misconceptions about FOSS in her talk.
Don't get me wrong -- I have no impression that she's acting with malicious intent. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if she was supportive of the open source business model. But regardless of intent, her voice carries great weight when she's given the microphone at a TED talk.
11:50
"Open source software. These guys decided they didn't want copyright protection. They thought it'd be more innovative without it."
False. Some FOSS developers eschew some of the protections granted to them through copyright law and grant everyone very permissive licenses to their code. Other developers have used a clever hack to create a body of "copyleft" work -- code that can be used and expanded upon, contingent upon derivative works being distributed under the same terms as the original work.
Very few FOSS developers put their code into the public domain.
13:50
Around this point she shows a chart.
The chart has two axes:
X: "Property (Art)" -> "Free (Utility)" and
Y: "Physical Fixed Expression" -> "Idea/Digital Manifestation".
The left two quadrants are colored grey and have "COPYRIGHT PROTECTED" written above them. The right two quadrants and colored white and have "NOT COPYRIGHT PROTECTED" above them.
She plots "OPEN SOURCE CODE" on the chart exactly in between "Idea/Digital Manifestation" and "Free (Utility)", placing it on the right hand, "NOT COPYRIGHT PROTECTED" side of the chart.
At least for the moment, computer code is copyrightable in the US. And as I stated before, most FOSS code is copyright protected.
I think that Blakley has a lot of interesting ideas, and certainly knows more about the fashion industry than I, but she's needlessly negligent in her characterization of how FOSS interacts with copyright law.
Perhaps I should write her a polite letter...
coding is life
What free culture? This is an industry that has no qualms about charging thousands of dollars for a pretty piece of cloth!
I read "IP Railway". While that would be pretty cool to see, I'm very worried about my eyes now.
I'm the IT manager for a fashion company and as far as I can tell there is not much point in copy protection in our market.
A range lasts only 3 months (ie a 'season') so by the time something new is out and proven popular it's too late to copy it because we're already moving onto the next season.
Our designers build their labels by staying ahead of the curve, and our target market is 'cool' kids who don't settle for anything less than the latest. It's sort of self regulating.
Sure the Mall stores come out with clones of last years popular stuff, but people that buy that junk were never our target market to begin with.
The speaker is getting her things mixed up.
Open source is copyrighted. And if it were not then people would copy without any regards. For example the GPL works BECAUSE of copyright. It uses copyright to keep free.
"You can't make a race horse of a pig"
"No," said Samuel, "but you can make very fast pig"
can you help me?
Fashion is about standing out, getting attention and signalling belonging to an elite clique. Items cannot be replicated infinitely. Because items are easy to create, many are created. Brand matters.
Computer software is about utility - does it work or not. Items can be replicated infinitely. Because items are difficult to create, very few are created. Brand does not matter.
With fashion, what you pay for is 1) the physical item itself, 2) the time that went into designing the item, 3) the prestige the creator has built for themselves.
With computer software, there is clearly no point in paying for the physical item itself, and no point in paying for any prestige either.
You could say that "if you could download clothes fully made there would still be an industry based around design" - true, but the example isn't transferable, because clothes, as mentioned above, are easy to create and many are created. If designing a dress cost $200m, and copies made of it were sold _marked with the same brand and in the same stores_, it would never be designed in the first place.
In fact, the important thing in fashion isn't about copyright protection, it's about trademark protection. Why does Armani sell? Because, although people can copy their style, they cannot copy their brand. It's trademark protection that is key to the profitability of the fashion industry - which she does NOT mention at all. Trademark is to fashion what copyright is to computers. Ask a designer how they would feel if trademark protection was removed, and you would see any "brand" they seek to create for themselves copied identically by mass producers. By pretending that the fashion industry thrives with no copyright protection, she fails to point out that their "intellectual property" is their TM, which they guard like hawks. This is deceptive. You go to jail for violating fashion trademarks. I would even argue that fashion trademarks are even stricter than computer copyrights.
Not to mention that to base projections about downloads on current download/sales ratios are deceptive - because if copyright violation was legal, companies would rapidly spring up, in the style of Steam, with a menu of software ready to pipe to home computers. Why pay for a movie in a store when you can have a library of every movie ever created instantly available only for the cost of bandwidth? With the current torrent system, at least a) your bandwidth may be limited, which market pressure would stop it from if copyright violation was legal; b) there are a few steps involved in burning the ISO; c) you will miss out on patches and downloadable content. If copyright violation was legal a Steam-like system would spring up in 2-3 months, with a well-managed system of circumventing copy protection. This would again lead to an explosion of even stricter anti-circumvention, probably involving hardware, which would add multiple layers of cost.
Why must KDawson be evil enough to put forward deceptive examples uncritically to serve his ideology? Can everyone else do the same thing? Or is being deceptive good as long as it serves the cause of good? It doesn't exactly inspire me to show much regard in return.
The TCP/IP stack isn't protected. Fail.
The difference between fashion and software (well, one of the many) is that software can be improved on iteratively.
And that improved version gets a NEW copyright, therefore the OLD one doesn't need it any more.
Even if your software is old, if it's solid and mature, people will want to built new shinies on top of its old reliable, and therefore, it was value to them.
Except with closed source (heck, even most Open Source but not FOSS), you CANNOT. Go update Windows 95 so it supports the new Atom subnotes.
So, you're saying that people are upset that they do not have government-enforced Monopolies and that they must constantly innovate to compete against this so-called "theft"? Shocking!
Ask the 99.999% of people who aren't designers but consumers if they feel that there is too little innovation in fashion or if they are upset that cheap imitation fashion is available. I dare you to find one such person who will be upset by all this "theft".
I have no idea why you were modded "Insightful" (those are ironic quotes). You clearly didn't even watch the video and totally missed the entire point. The Constitution allows Monopolies if and only if they 'promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts'. Now go back and reread your comment and explain to me where your argument explained how fashion Monopolies would accomplish such a goal, rather than deter it (which is what they would actually do). You are clearly very confused, as are those who modded you up. Sad.
Actually, the fashion industry's continued and persistent success proves two things:
1. That IP laws do NOT add incentive to create and it never has. It's a huge lie.
2. That when people copy freely that nobody can make any money. Once again, huge lie. As stated, it turns out that demographic plays a huge role in determining who buys what and for how much. "They are not our customers!"
They are indeed the model for copyright reform. They prove that an industry is in perpetual motion due to its lack of IP protection. The lack has done more to keep people busy and employed and even rich than any amount of protection could offer.
What IP protection offers is a way to slow down and control the evolution of design -- a way to way to invest less in R&D and design and still make money.
The megacorps of the fashion industry give designers jobs. Without them no one would notice their designs. Fashion is about reputation. If designers get a big name company to copy them that gives them a good reputation and probably a loyal following of customers looking for the next hot thing.
OSS is the same way. Big name companies use Linux in their solutions it grows the brand. Everyone knows Linus for inventing Linux. Without the big name companies copying, contributing and using Linux no one would know who Linus is. Now many personal users use Linux.
The video addresses exactly this point, and appears to have been made with reference to speaking to big hitters in the fashion industry who've been working in it for decades.
Briefly, it raises a number of points:
1. The people who are buying the knock-offs probably wouldn't be buying the really expensive designer clothes anyway.
2. Industries with relatively low IP protection are much larger than industries with a lot of IP protection. (Though I think this is a bit of a disingenuous point - the industries at the top of the scale are selling things that are necessities rather than luxuries in today's society, so of course they're going to be huge. Specifically, they're food, fashion - remember even a £3 Primark T-shirt comes under the heading of "fashion" - and cars.)
3. IP protection would be really difficult because it's very hard to establish precisely what makes a design original. Set the bar too high and nobody can claim copyright on a design because it's practically impossible to prove that you really were the first to come up with the idea, set it too low and the tiniest change means it's no longer a knock-off. We already see exactly this problem in the music industry when an artist is accused of plagiarising another artists' tune - the resulting legal wrangles go on for years. (cf. "Kookaburra sits in the old gum tree/Down Under")
4. Whether you like it or not, it forces people within the industry to work harder. The fashion industry thrives on constantly finding the Next Big Thing, and makes a nice chunk of cash doing so. Who wants to buy the Next Big Thing when it's almost identical to the Last Big Thing which is still sitting in the wardrobe and is in pretty good repair?
Isn't ACTA the Anti-Counterfeiting Trade Agreement, originally conceived to prevent the distribution of imitation designer goods (Versace handbags, Christian Dior watches etc)?
Yet it becomes one of the most prohibitive pieces of copyright and IP legislation in existence. Way to go, fashion industry.
Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
Nice pun in the title there, kdawson.
Don't blame the instigator for what the implementors do.
AFAICT, the fashion industry is only really concerned about Trademarks. Gucci probably couldn't care less if someone tried to sell "Krauti" handbags, which looked almost exactly like Gucci ones. They know that their customers wouldn't buy Krauti handbags even if they were physically identical atom-for-atom (barring the branding).
Thus just goes to prove how crappy the designs are if everyone is already sick of it after 3 months.
I loved the rationale that a recipe is "just a list of instructions and therefore not copyrightable". Maybe we should apply the same logic to software which is "just a list of instructions" and somehow therefore copyrightable? It does not compute... Personally, I have in the past 27 years of programming not once directly profited from copyright. The only software to which I've retained copyright is software that I wrote under the GPL, and all of the other software has been work for hire. Of the work for hire, not a single line of that code was ever sold! All of the code that was distributed as done so freely, usually to capture and audience or promote another product or event. Would it make any difference to me if software were not copyrightable? Hell Yes! I would have just as much programming to do, but I could re-use software I have already written. As it stands now, the only software I can reuse on each job is the code I wrote under that I placed under GPL! And it is because of that code, that I always have work that I have to turn down due to lack of time. So for some of us, the Fashion model is reality in software, just we end up knocking our own work off over and over again for different clients with different tastes.
It's trademark protection that is key to the profitability of the fashion industry - which she does NOT mention at all.
Actually, she does. More than once. Did you watch the video?
The point that she makes is that the ability to create derivative works fuels innovation, makes money, and fosters creativity, a point that I totally agree with.
Your assertion that "If designing a dress cost $200m, and copies made of it were sold _marked with the same brand and in the same stores_, it would never be designed in the first place." is specious.
Movies that cost $200M (and more, much more), are greenlighted all the time, bomb at the box office, die in the dustbins of discount DVDs, still don't recover their budgetary costs, and yet that doesn't stop more from being made. Does it?
Which leads to the question: Why do movies that cost millions to make generally suck the most?
Could it be that the old business models, dinosaurian management, and a sense of protected entitlement, foster a culture that recycles themes, prizes visual efx over story, stifles creativity and throttles risk taking?
Look at some of the most successful, highest grossing movies of the last 15 years and I think you'll see more that were made on relatively small budgets (Blair Witch Project being the poster child, but there are others) than you will Summer Blockbusters. My Big Fat Greek Wedding was turned down for production by all the major studios until Playtone picked it up, dropped it in the can for $5M and to date it's grossed $369M worldwide.
No, I'm with Johanna Blakely, less protectionism, less legislation, and less artificial control will foster change, evolution and creation, and that's something we should look forward to.
Some days it's just not worth
chewing through my restraints.
or that those cheap clothes will disintegrate within a year of purchase.
comment first, facts later. http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
i think that person had recently left gucci and was talking some observations that fashion house had done.
comment first, facts later. http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
Pfft. It's almost like you're saying that a lack of IP protection results in a faster pace of development, forcing innovators to move quickly to develop an idea, get it to market, and profit from it (greatly) in the natural lag before someone comes along and copies it cheaply.
Such an idea is, of course, pure craziness. Fashion design must be a marginal business, with very little profit and those poor, poor innovators living in cardboard boxes and eating cat food to stay alive.
-Styopa
i wonder what would happen if the laws where changed so that anyone could create their own steam boat willie, but only walt disney company could have ol' walts name attached to it.
comment first, facts later. http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
I was looking at it the other way. There are people who are willing to pay a thousand dollars for a dress - if they can get it before everybody else. There's always a delay (although it's getting shorter) before the knock-offs arrive, and whatever Jefferson may have thought some people are willing to pay for exclusivity, even if it's temporary.
By the time the wally world brigade are wearing it it's already passé, pretty much by definition, and the top flight have moved on to something else.
This is a key difference between fashion and software; the former is driven by a mix of snobbishness and forced obsolescence whereas I don't really care if my kernel is soooooo last season.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
There is one killer slide at 12:20 comparing the gross sales of low-IP-protection industries with those of films and books and music.
Seriously?
Comparing food, cars and clothing to films, books and music?
I don't know about you... but I kinda have this habit of eating every day, sometimes even more than once.
I also have this crazy need to change my clothes from time to time. Sometimes I even throw it away as I find it "unwearable", as it gets worn out OR my body changes from all that food I eat every day.
Compared to that, I am yet to throw away any of my DVDs, CDs, books etc. because it is "worn out" or "out of trend" or "I don't want to watch/listen to/read that at the moment".
And putting cars up there... Why not diamonds too? Or "space vacations"?
Come on... You can't compare a price of a car to the price of a lunch, or a pair of pants, or a CD.
Also, note the HUGE difference in the gross sales of the first two industries (food - which everyone buys all the time; cars - which cost much more per single item than the products of any other industry) and the rest of the "IP-freely" industries (fashion - items last a lot longer than food; furniture - lasts virtually forever).
Furniture is right there at the low end with the movies. Despite the fact that a decent bed (or even a cheap one) will set you back a lot more than a fun movie.
Also, virtues of copying?
Ohh... Just TRY incorporating the second two into ANY industry not based on shoe shopping.
"Induced obsolescence"? Really?
How would you like to have to re-buy ALL your software, books, movies, CDs EVERY SEASON instead of every time a new digital media appers?
Why would you have to buy it?
Because of "Acceleration in creative innovation", which translates to:
Fashionistas want to stay ahead of the curve.
They don't want to be wearing what everybody else is wearing and so they want to move on to the next trend as soon as possible.
EVERY SEASON these designers have to struggle to come up with the new fabulous idea that everybody's going to love.
And this [..] is very good for the bottom line.
In other words - snobbery supported by profit margin supported by snobbery.
Sure... you might say that we already have that in constantly changing "modern" music, artsy-fartsy films or even Apple.
But none of those "industries" can be pushed into fashion industry's "season based" product cycle.
Why?
Because fashion is the only "art" that can become OBSOLETE.
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
This. Don't you think it's bloody wasteful, though? I wonder how much perfectly serviceable clothing ends up in landfill or being pulped for... ummm .... whatever they make out pf pulped clothing.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
So... like Apple? ;) (Oh come one, you know it's true. How many people bought an iPod instead of another MP3 player that was more capable?)
Every time I start to have faith in humanity, I ruin it by driving to work between 7 and 8 am.
With that bar chart at around 12:24 - is she implying that correlation == causation? Here, in the slashdots?
Also, I'd like to see what's included within the food category. Restaurant & takeaway only? Or are branded convenience foods included? How about basic ingredients?
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
the biggest problem with copyright is that it was created to do one thing, make sure that writers got a cut of the sales related to printings of texts they had written.
then it got applied to audio recordings, photos, movie recordings and software.
the basic problem was not that someone was printing copies and giving them away, back then the cost of materials and time made that basically impossible. Sure, it had cut down the time vs hand writing a copy greatly, but it still took time to set each page and then make the print; never mind the cost of the letters, press and paper.
This is something that have followed physical creations since we first learned to make things. Price have been based on the time and materials needed, as the time taken to make something would cut into the makers time to do something else. Something like say, tending the field and animals that would feed him.
But as production becomes increasingly automated, and now we are getting flexible tools that only need a new set of instructions to create a new object (3D printers anyone?), the cost in time is dropping through the floor. Heck, a home printer can be set to do its thing while i go do something else that may be more directly involved in my survival. And as the cost in equipment and setup time becomes less, so follows the need to mass produce to make up for the initial effort.
the black and white laser printer can with equal ease be feed the complete works of shakespeare as it can some random report for office or school. And it can change between the two in seconds, not days like the older printing systems needed.
observe how the last book in the harry potter series was scanned, OCR, translated to german and proofread in 48 hours after its initial release. All done by people online doing various other things as their day job or equivalent (or surviving on minimal welfare checks for all i know).
machines are taking over more and more menial tasks, resulting in the jobs left being creative ones. And as more people are free to be creative, the value of those jobs drops like rocks, thanks to basic economics (job market saturation, anyone?).
i just wonder what this increased automation will do to the world economy given time, as with less people working, there is less income to spend on the very products being made.
comment first, facts later. http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
fuck you, i would if i could.
http://www.accountkiller.com/removal-requested
until that unpatched kernel allows your personal data to be grabbed by some worm and then having all kinds of expensive objects charged to your credit rating.
comment first, facts later. http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
Don't even need to do that, just substantially lower the bar on how different something has to be before it's considered a separate work rather than plagiarised.
Right now if you take just a few musical notes at random that sound good together, there's a very strong chance you'll wind up with something that has already been done, is still under copyright protection and has a pack of hungry lawyers to prove it. There was a podcast somewhere which explained this and pointed out the absurdity complete with examples, but I've forgotten where it was and a quick search doesn't reveal anything particularly helpful.
I may have tin ears, but they don't sound remotely similar to me.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
If copyright violation was legal a Steam-like system would spring up in 2-3 months
You do know that Steam(Valve Software) makes money and passes some of that along to the creators, right?
Every time I start to have faith in humanity, I ruin it by driving to work between 7 and 8 am.
probably the starshipsofa reading of spider robinsons melancoly elephants.
the text:
http://www.spiderrobinson.com/melancholyelephants.html
the podcast:
http://www.starshipsofa.com/20090923/aural-delights-no-101-spider-robinson/
comment first, facts later. http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
Fashion is a lot like software: the more transparency, the better.
Good talk, but isn't the higher income of low-ip industries precisely because they're utilitarian? You need food, transport, clothes, furniture but you can live without movies and music.
Fashion doesn't need copyright because they have super-aggressive design patent and trademark protections. Coca-cola doesn't have to worry about copyright on the coca-cola logo design on shirts because the design is a registered trademark, and thus is way easier and more powerful to prosecute than a wimpy ol' copyright. I am surprised that this would qualify as a TED talk since it seems to completely miss the point, but I haven't seen too many... are they all this wrong?
stuff |
You can have example after example. Proof after proof.
The money grubbing bastards who know how to milk the status quo for every last cent will continue to forge ahead, regardless of who or what gets in their way.
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
You do have to mention it was a well-paid young create fashion designer.
New things are always on the horizon
Software actually adds additional functionality, security updates, fixes bugs and adds compatibility with new technologies.
A new pair of pants does none of that.
Also, fashion industry is supposedly IP-free exactly BECAUSE it can push a new line of products down the public's ummm.. wallets every three months.
Try doing the same with software and pretty soon they will try to sell you a new desktop background.
And IP-protected industry covers a lot more than just software.
Books, movies, music - those can never go out of fashion. And you can't push their production cycle into a "three-month-wide" mold.
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
or that those cheap clothes will disintegrate within a year of purchase.
Unfortunately most of those expensive clothes tend to do the same.
They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance. - Terry Pratchett
We already have this....
People who buy the latest Apple/Sony gadget on day of release, no matter the cost ....and they would never settle for a copy, or similar by another manufacturer....
Puteulanus fenestra mortis
So... IP reform should be based on really skinny women that throw up all the time? Gah! Brilliant!
load "$",8,1
It's the riff that was the bone of contention: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqOIdtKZTG4&feature=related
IP is pants.
No, it was a single person explaining directly to the listeners rather than an allegorical story and he used examples comparing modern pop with remarkably similar riffs used by the likes of the Beatles - the point being that in order to sound even half-decent, pop has some fairly strict rules and there's only so many combinations of notes that sound good.
The ramp-up to copy a new dress 50,000 times and ship it to market is a fair bit more than, say, the ramp-up to provide 50,000 downloads of an application.
If there was no copyright, you wouldn't knock off the application. You'd do a digital copy and offer digital copies. That's not possible when selling a physical product.
Any asshole can make umpteen zillion copies of an mp3, but it takes equipment to churn out a bunch of dresses. Car parts work the same way; unless some patent prevents you from replicating them, you can make all the replacement parts you want. Unless there's a design patent on it, you can copy the design of a fender, and then stamp out knockoffs as fast as you can sell them... but it takes enough equipment to work sheet metal like that. Clearly, material and nonmaterial goods are fundamentally different. That's why we have separate laws for theft of property and "theft" of ideas.
(ObDisclaimer: I didn't watch some woman blather for fifteen minutes, when if I had the opportunity, I could read the same shit in three. Posting video links is stupid, Ted Talks is stupid for not having transcripts, and their website sucks for requiring Javascript.)
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
You're underestimating the value of a designer original. The fact is copies these days often hit the market at the same time as, if not before, the originals, sometimes the copies are even of better quality, and yet people still buy the originals because there is some level of perceived value in that. If that weren't the case, top designers would be forced to compete on price or go out of business, I don't see much evidence of designer brands competing against copies on price...
Computer software is about utility - does it work or not. Items can be replicated infinitely. Because items are difficult to create, very few are created. Brand does not matter.
Brand does not matter? Really? Then explain why the phrase "Nobody ever got fired for buying X." (where X is IBM, Microsoft, Cisco, etc) is so prevalent in the IT industry. People buy computers strictly because of the brand be it Apple, Dell, HP, etc. and the some goes for software. OpenOffice is functionality equivalent for probably 99% of Office's userbase, but people still buy MS Office due to the Microsoft brand.
Brand makes a huge difference regardless of the industry.
So it benefits established designers and incredibly talented emerging designers and everyone else has to either work damn hard to succeed or find a new career. I don't see a problem with that, nobody should expect to have IP in place to give them a free ride, if they're not prepared to work for success they probably don't deserve it.
You're wrong, and the "Long Tail" shows us that. People aer still willing to pay for all *sorts* of IP, a long time after it was created.
In your world the copycats are truly slow.
In the real world (at least in China) copycats are known to be able to bring copied designs of clothes, jewellery, even electronics on the market before the official brand releases them.
Software is not only about its utilitarian value. Some are sold only on prestige like Adobe PDF Writer when free alternative like PDF Creator exist. Some are mostly sold on annex services like for Oracle when the vast majority of implementation could have run with any other cheaper RDBMS. Some are sold because of their unique or perceived unique feature. Some are sold because they are more 'complete' than others (Photoshop Vs The GIMP). With only trademarks in software, each company competing for customers cash would have to improve their product, make some unique feature first, make them more complete then other. This will result of not be in the actual position of some software stagnating because there is no contender in their niche market, making a better one at less cost than the actual way of doing it because developers could copy and not have to reinvent the wheel each time.
This is exactly my thinking for a while. Its brand that is important. We are a bit weary of cheap knock offs, we don't think of them as quality items. We trust in brands, because they have a reputation to protect. As everything is becoming free, brand becomes increasingly important. What is a Linux distribution if it is not a brand? I'm really chuffed with this video because to me it validates my musings with real world examples. :-)
Movies that cost $200M (and more, much more), are greenlighted all the time, bomb at the box office, die in the dustbins of discount DVDs, still don't recover their budgetary costs, and yet that doesn't stop more from being made. Does it?
These movies are subsidized by the studios through those that are profitable, so I'm not sure how this is similar to dresses at all.
Which leads to the question: Why do movies that cost millions to make generally suck the most?
They do? Sure, there are plenty expensive movies that are terrible, but have you seen most of the cheap movies? They're just as bad if not worse.
Look at some of the most successful, highest grossing movies of the last 15 years and I think you'll see more that were made on relatively small budgets (Blair Witch Project being the poster child, but there are others) than you will Summer Blockbusters. My Big Fat Greek Wedding was turned down for production by all the major studios until Playtone picked it up, dropped it in the can for $5M and to date it's grossed $369M worldwide.
The highest grossing movies are, with maybe a few exceptions, also the most expensive movies to make. Avatar, Titanic, and the Dark Knight come to mind. Movies like the Blair Witch Project do have a great return on investment though.
I do agree with your main point about protectionism, the above just bothered me.
Disco Stu disagrees. Disco is still alive!
It's called Techno or Trance now Stu. So you're Techno Stu.
[signature]
I prefer to quote Tony P. "Disco is not dead. Disco is life!"
This question was specifically addressed in the talk. To dig deeper, maybe Microsoft doesn't need to spend billions annually on software development and R&D. It's very likely that Microsoft, Oracle, Google, Apple, Adobe, Hewlett-Packard, IBM, Intel, Cisco, etc. are all spending billions doing more or less the same research. The first one who gets it basically invalidates the billions that all the others have spent, at least for 20 years. If Microsoft could just openly rip off, say, Apple, then maybe some of those billions they're spending on reinventing Apple's wheel could be spent improving Apple's wheel instead. Better yet, maybe Joe Kernelhacker could take the wheels that Microsoft, Oracle, Google, etc. have created, tweak it a bit, and come up with something that the rest could in turn incorporate, or that he could even sell and help share the wealth.
Also, look at, for example, Adobe's new feature in Photoshop whereby you can remove stuff from pictures just by painting a boundary around it, and it fills in the background. Now, I'll agree that you shouldn't be able to just copy the code directly from Photoshop and use it in your own application wholesale. But as the laws are set up now, you can't even implement your own version of this feature, and that's absolutely horrible for innovation. Hell, just look what's going on with the H.264 battle. Not only are some people saying you can't use that codec--by far, the most popular and well-supported codec on the Internet--to make your own videos without paying up to MPEG LA, but some have issued veiled threats that the whole process is patented down so heavily that making any software that can stream video at all will get you sued into oblivion. And they're probably right.
The point of that tangent is that without software patents and copyright laws being extremely relaxed, maybe Microsoft can take some of that money they spend on lawyers (a very significant amount, by the way) and divert it to R&D because they no longer have to worry about being sued and paying millions to some schmuck who, it turns out, has a patent on wiping their butts. (Not to mention the millions in royalties they're having to pay to the other schmuck who has the patent on using toilet paper.)
Also, the fact that Adobe has the first product on the market that can do the out-of-sight out-of-mind trick is great advertising. Without software patents, will everyone replicate this feature in their products? Eventually, of course, yes. It's a cool feature. But it's obviously something that's not easy to replicate. It's not like Microsoft can just go to their development gurus and say, "Make this happen." If they incorporated it into Paint, it would probably take them months or even years to figure out a way to replicate the effect, during which time Adobe will be selling copies of Photoshop like gangbusters. This was what she was referring to with the slide on making it hard to replicate.
Have you ever used a piece of software that was blazing fast at something? Unless it was open source, did you really know exactly how it was fast? Was it because they came up with some clever way to use less resources? Did they come up with some clever algorithm that churns the numbers faster than everyone else? Did they just work really hard to remove all the bloat from their code, or write it to use resources on your machine at a lower level? There are literally millions of ways to make something work better. I just don't think that IBM will be ripping stuff off left and right from Oracle because it's not like they're going to instantly just know what to rip off.
"Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months."
-Oscar Wilde
You just gave me a great idea: my new fashion design house is going to be named "Roulette"
Only the brashest, most outré young fashionistas will be wearing my stuff because it is designed to disintegrate at some random point, 4-24 hours after being put on. All eyes and cameras are guaranteed to be on the starlet wearing a Roulette dress on the red carpet!
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
Or as George Bernard Shaw put it, "Fashion is a form of ugliness so unbearable we have to alter it every 6 months."
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
The original culture in hight-tech Silicon Valley in the early 80s did not include patents and IP protection. A company needed to get their product on the marker ahead of their competitors and, given the learning curve, even two weeks mattered a lot. No money and time were wated on patents and no information was disclosed to the public. But then the lawyers came and took over.
View the presentation - they explain this. The reason they only care about trademarks is that they don't qualify for copyrights.
Moderators who do not RTFA are to /. as an orderly with unwashed hands is to an ER.
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
More than once she mentions items which don't have copyright protections because they are "too utilitarian." If computer software is "about utility" why should it have copyright protection?
As far as trademark is concerned, this only really applies to the logo. You can't trademark a design. I can't make a new type of shoe and say "this is trademarked so now you can't copy it." I can, however, make a unique "shoe logo" and stamp it prominently on every shoe I sell. Then, when the knockoff designers make copies of my shoes, they won't have the cool design on their shoes.
When it comes to the question of why pay for a movie when you download it for free, this is where I think price, availability, hassle and extras can tip the scales. First of all, don't price your product too high or people won't buy it and will seek out other methods of obtaining it (either used or pirated versions). Secondly, make your product available. I can't count how many times people have said they wanted to buy movie X but couldn't because it wasn't released in their DVD region. Thirdly, if you add hassles to your legal copy (DRM, unskippable ads, etc) people will flock away from it. Alternatively, if you make it hassle-free, people will choose it over trying to find and download a good pirated copy. Lastly, if you include cool extra features in your paid-version, people will buy that over the "just the movie DVD rip" torrent.
This isn't to say that everyone would flock to the paid-for copy. There are people out there who would download the pirated version even if the movie company was selling a DRM-free, Platinum Version with a thousand extra features for $5. You just need to realize that these people aren't your customers. Just like Gucci realized that the people buying cheap Gucci knock-offs weren't their customers.
Perhaps you can even find a way to profit from them like some high fashion designers who knocked off their own looks for sale to the "cheap knockoff" chains. To give an example from Disney, they're currently giving away free music every day for 50 days. ( http://twitter.com/disneymusic ) The "free music buffs" will eat this up and download every one. They might even discover that they like the song and go out and buy the album it came from. In the end, Disney is "out" 50 songs yet potentially increases their sales. (And yes, I know that Disney is a huge source of our current copyright woes, but like any big company there are good things they do and bad things. I figured I'd give them credit for one of the good things.)
My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
My wife works in fashion, she knows many designers personally and has very strong views on copyright as a result of her experiences. Big companies are not really affected by these issues; owning a big name designer brand is all about the brand. If you have an identical fake, it is not as good purely because it is a fake. This is not directly equatible to software where nobody cares that there pirated copy isn't a "geniune Prada". The people who get screwed, though, are the smaller designers. It actually does take considerably more effort to create something unique and special, then it takes to copy that something. My wife has people from these cheaper knock-off stores come in, buy (or look at an item) and then see the near identical item in their store the next week. This hurts! If it was so damned easy to make in the first place, why do these people need to copy. Another designer she knows from Paris (who is a holocost surviver), was put out of business for a time due to floods of cheap copies from china. The problem isn't just that some people can get it for cheap as a result, it's also that your entire brand is devalued by association. (note that these copies were majorly inferiour in every way, except for how they looked). This sort of thin causes real harm to real people. It's made me re-think some of my pirating ways.
Nonsense. The Kmart knockoffs don't do anything to devalue the "real thing".
If you are able to convince people that spend 100x on a shirt to pay you 100x then you are set. Otherwise you're just a sad pathetic whiney loser like everyone else.
The lack of a draconian copyright/patent regime really doesn't have anything to do with it.
You just suck at being a fashion designer.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
i just wonder what this increased automation will do to the world economy given time, as with less people working, there is less income to spend on the very products being made.
I've often wondered if the moneyless purported uptopian socialist society depicted in Star Trek was where we are heading, except with a decidedly dystopian air.
The cesspool just got a check and balance.
The IP in industry Vs Turnover/gross. Essentially this looked like it might be a counter-argument to the core of the talk. If someone can get very rich, in a relatively 'small' industry, then that is a greater motivator to that person. Just because everyone spends money on prepared food, does not mean that the recipe industry is a good way to make dough, ahem, dou$h. A good graph would be average income of persons (including corps) in some of the hi IP and low IP industries.
Waiting for the other shoe to...
talk to any of the young, creative designers that are moving things forward, and they will tell you about how all of their designs are being ripped off by mall stores.
Uh, no. Not exactly.
Some will tell you that, but if you press them for specifics they generally won't be able to identify any of their own designs that were ripped off, or demonstrate in any way that they themselves have actually moved anything forward in the fashion world (or any other world). Instead they'll talk about how that happened to other struggling young designers who they used to hang out with. So sad, how all of those guys copped out and took good paying jobs with companies like Calvin Klein, Nike, Columbia Sportswear, etc.
As to "Forever 21"-- what is that? Some kind of anti-wrinkle skin cream formula to keep you looking like you're still to young to know anything?
Will
I'm the IT manager for a fashion company and as far as I can tell there is not much point in copy protection in our market.
A range lasts only 3 months (ie a 'season') so by the time something new is out and proven popular it's too late to copy it because we're already moving onto the next season.
You're confusing the disease with the cure by saying "Well, IP protection wouldn't affect this industry." It's the opposite, the industry is the way it is because it doesn't have IP protection. In an industry without IP protection, you have to survive by continuing to innovate, by continuing to add value, thus the 3 month cycle. If fashion did have the same IP protection of software, we'd all still be wearing the dominant fashions from a decade ago.
Fact.
or that those cheap clothes will disintegrate within a year of purchase.
If you're buying for fashion rather than utility, why does it matter of they disintegrate? They'll be out of styly before they disintegrate.
Free Martian Whores!
you talk to any of the young, creative designers that are moving things forward, and they will tell you about how all of their designs are being ripped off by mall stores.
If I talked to such people, I'd firat ask which rules they used to prove their desings are completely original and the mall's are rip-offs.
Point taken, however allow me to relay my sister's experience.
She sowed all her life, starting as soon as our mother would let her. She was very bright, successfully combining her last two years of high school and first two years of college. Then off to university to study Fashion Design. Where her intelligence and experience blew away her professors and had the other students coming to her, begging for help.
Then it came time for her and her classmates to exhibit their work. They had always done this for the new students using manikins and tables of drawings / portfolios. Some from the industry showed up and items quickly and quietly disappeared.
The format was abandoned, for actual fashion shows. These have the distinct advantage that the model might scream if someone tries to steal their clothing. Teams of security personal were placed at all entrances where the students' work would be.
Off to New York to finish her education and hopefully land a job. While their, my sister created one piece that sent her instructor literally yelling down the hallway, "Come see what my student has created, you will not believe it." At first the assembled staff was speechless. Then they excitedly started to analyze it and try to figure out how it was made, my sister literally had to step in when the seam-rippers came out.
At this point she had become the darling of two fashion schools. Ahead of her interviews, advice started to pour in from every instructor she had ever had. While one department head tried to get her to stay in academia, to groom her as her replacement, one piece of advice was consistent...
"Do not, under any circumstances, let the interviewer alone with your portfolio."
"Why?"
"They will find a way to copy it and you have just given them their new fall line."
My sister did hold her designs close. After being interviewed by the company she always said she wanted to work for and for a position in the city she wanted, they offered to fly her out to see their facilities. According to her professors, this was a sure sign that a job offer was coming. She declined stating, "This industry is too cutthroat, I don't think I can work in it."
She then went back to school to study Civil Engineering.
I will not mourn that which I never had to lose. - Unknown
Obviously nobody has heard of "Forever 21."
Of course we haven't. WTF are you doing on slashdot? We're nerds. We don't give two shits about fashion. We don't care what it looks like, we care how well it's made and how well it works. We don't care what our jeans look like, we care about how comfortable they are and how much shit we can carry in the pockets.
You might as well troll a fashion messageboard with "obviously you've never heard of Emacs."
Free Martian Whores!
Yep. Basically, they're buying exclusivity.
Twitter recently bought Atebits, which produced the Tweetie 2 twitter client for the iPhone. Previously, Tweetie 2 was a $2.99 app. Upon acquisition, Twitter released an updated version, renamed it simply "Twitter", and gave it away for free.
You should see some of the negatives reviews that were left. Much wailing and gnashing of teeth, some of it angry that they paid for something that became free (ignoring the value they received in the meantime), but a lot of it sounding like, "I paid for this app because not everyone had it, now anyone can get it? Lame." (That's almost a direct quote from one of the complaints.)
Exclusivity is a tangible item to some people; it's what makes collectors spend ridiculous amounts to find that last item for their collection, or buy $24k Rolex watches. I might personally think it's ludicrous, but there you go.
-Ed Felix qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas.
What do you mean by fashion being the only art that can become obsolete? Do you mean all other art forms live forever? in a physical sense, or in an influential sense? and you're saying some (all?) of fashion will cease to exist after a certain time? in a physical sense? or in an influential sense?
cheers
Oh, and one more thing. Maybe I don't want Microsoft spending billions annually on software development and R&D. Personally, I don't like 15 or 20 companies being the gatekeepers of new technology because they're the only ones rich enough to throw that kind of money around. Instead of Microsoft spending a billion dollars to research 1000 things, why not have 100 companies spend 10 million each, each researching 10 things? Not only would you get a better diversity of research with lots of different ideas, but that also helps 100 companies make new and interesting things instead of just one. Maybe 100 CEOs can become multimillionaires off of their products instead of one guy becoming a multibillionaire.
But did she also reap?
If there was no copyright, you wouldn't knock off the application. You'd do a digital copy and offer digital copies. That's not possible when selling a physical product.
So you don't feel a CAD file is digital and is instead tangible?
How bout a stitch pattern design file?
Copyright does not protect the clothing, ever. So you are comparing your above example to exactly nothing.
The *entire* point of patents, as defined in the US Constitution, is "To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;"
Notice it says "limited time", because it does *not* promote progress by giving unlimited time. In fact, you could argue (and I'd love to see someone take this to court) that the DCMA violates this clause, as well as the current patent law, since it prevents progress.
mark
Fashion depends on churn. There aren't many original ideas. If you look at this year's runway fashion, and are familiar with the history of fashion, you can usually find a matching piece from decades ago. The Fashion Institute of Technology in New York has a large library of clothing against which new designs can be compared. This year, we have khaki (again), Gautier is trying green spandex shorts (80s aerobic wear), and Issey Miyake is over-pleating again (he did that better in the '80s) and using pink accents (so last year.) The jeans industry keeps fussing with various levels of fading, but they've been doing that for so long that nobody is paying much attention.
There's some technological progress, and it gets IP protection. Gore-Tex was patented, and for a long time, had a monopoly over waterproof fabrics that breathe well. Progress in materials, in sewing technology, and in cleaning has led to new ranges of clothing. Jeans, for example, depend on a sewing technology for strong corners that's only about fifty years old. (Today, rivets in jeans are decorative, not structural.) Sportswear, which was invented by Coco Chanel, wasn't really feasible before washing machines. Elastic fabrics opened up many new options. Not much new has come along in the last two decades, ("pleather" made a small splash) and fashion technology has somewhat stagnated.
As the TED talk points out, the big thing today is trademark protection via "designer labels". This is a relatively new concept. Until the late 1970s, no respectable garment maker would have the designer's mark visible, let alone a prominent feature of the design. Logos were associated with cheap T-shirts. The interlocking double C now associated with Chanel did not appear on Chanel products until the 1980s.
The apparel distribution pipeline is incredibly inefficient. Over 60% of apparel is eventually sold on sale. There's a hierarchy. First there's the initial sale, with a big markup. Then there's the sale rack at the original retailer, with the original tags still attached. Then there's the discount retailer who buys from the original retailer and resells from their own store. Finally, the unsold apparel is rolled into big balls about eight feet in diameter, which are rolled into shipping containers and shipped to third world countries for final sale, or recycled into nonwoven fabrics like cleaning cloths. There was an attempt during the dot-com era, called "Tradeweave", to create a secondary trading market in unsold apparel, but it only lasted from 1999-2001.
The watch industry is a branch of the fashion industry now. "We are not in the watch industry, we are are in the luxury industry" says the CEO of Rolex. They had the basic problem that their overpriced machinery is less accurate than a midrange quartz watch, and they now have the worse problem that people who grew up with cell phones see no need for watches. There have been attempts by the phone industry to do "designer cell phones", but so far, that's mostly a joke. Apple tried to position themselves as a high-end product, but you can now get an iPhone at WalMart for $97. Emulating the fashion industry hasn't worked for technology industries.
Artists are a**holes. They really are narcissistic bunch, the math geeks I had as friends also thought highly of themselves, but they were decent and gave credit. I have degrees in math and CS. I took some art classes. Two of my sculptures were stolen at the end of my last year (you kept them in the studio until the end of the term). They weren't even that great, very crude, it's just that I made them and they took a lot of time and work and I wanted to keep them. Then a few years later I saw a 'copy' of one of my sculptures in an alumni magazine in a piece about the young artist now in NY. It was the TA of some of the other classes at the time. There was no credit given like I saw this piece and it inspired me, etc. I let it go. Your sis is way better off in engineering and I in software.
If Microsoft could just openly rip off, say, Apple, then maybe some of those billions they're spending on reinventing Apple's wheel could be spent improving Apple's wheel instead. Better yet, maybe Joe Kernelhacker could take the wheels that Microsoft, Oracle, Google, etc. have created, tweak it a bit, and come up with something that the rest could in turn incorporate, or that he could even sell and help share the wealth.
Which, incidentally, is how it actually works in the open-source world, thanks to license such as GPL whose whole purpose is to *force* passing the wheel around and to make sure that nobody will cling to an "improved wheel" without sharing with the others.
(Open-source is also briefly mentioned in her talk among a list of other stuff which don't have or refuse to use copyrights)
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
the big fashion houses go after fakes and knockoffs very aggresivly
Just for example...
Every fashion designer of significance will have a valued trademark.
Every automobile manufacturer has a trademark and applies for design patents and process patents.
Copyright does not in itself prohibit reverse engineering.
You have a lot of opinions, and they are just that: opinion. I would like to see some numbers to support your claim that "if copyright violation was legal, a Steam-like system would spring up in 2-3 months". As I see it, we have 3 groups involved in copyright violation. Assuming we are talking about a movie, these would be: 1) Die hard fans who insist on going to the movie theater and owning an official copy of the DVD once it comes out. 2) Normal people. Some will see the movie, some won't have time, some will buy the DVD, some won't have the money. 3) Die hard pirates. These will never pay for the movie, out of principle. Of these, group 1 will never pirate the movie, so we can ignore them. Group 3 will never pay for the movie, so there are no lost sales, so we can ignore them too. Out of the largest group, group 2, a significant proportion may pirate movie. But why? They may not have money, or consider the price of the movie or DVD excessive. This sub-group, then, are not the target market, so there are no lost sales. Some may have no time, and thus we can also exclude this sub-group, because they would never have time, regardless of the legality of copyright violation, and thus no lost sales. So what is the situation we find ourselves in? The target market of movies and DVDs - those with the funds and the time to spend - will likely purchase the entertainment. Those outside of the target group - those who cannot afford it - may pirate the work so that they can also enjoy it, but even if piracy was impossible, they would simply not purchase the work, no lost sales, no harm done. What can the movie (and by extension, the entire entertainment industry) do about this? In my humble, non-professional, armchair-critical opinion, they should stop worrying about those who are not their customers (people outside the target market, just as the fashion industry is doing) and/or change their business model to make them their customers once again. Raising prices will do nothing, it will only make the second group larger than before. Legally persecuting pirates will not help, as it still will not make those unable/unwilling to purchase their material change their minds nor their situation. What they can do, however, is provide services that directly compete with piracy. If Prada wanted to combat copies of their items, they could lower their prices so that purchasing an official copy becomes worth the price to a larger group of people. Similarly, if the entertainment industry wants people to stop pirating their works, provide a viable alternative, or stop complaining. You talk about Steam-like systems. Then lets look at Steam itself. It is incredibly successful, and offers many low-cost games, specials and weekend demos to entice more customers to pay. Not only that, but it provides a common, easy to use, system for purchasing, and downloading new games. It is a viable alternative to piracy. Yes, piracy still happens, and it always will. Even if you entice all of group 2 to become your paying customers, there will always be group 3 who refuse to pay, not matter how little you charge. Similarly, there will always be people who will only buy knock-off fashion items, and will never buy and authentic piece. There will always be people who obtain all their music from recording songs from the radio, or copying CDs from their friends. There will always be people who wait until movies come out of TV, or borrow their friend's DVDs and copy them. These people will never go away, and it's pointless to try and make them. Instead, the entertainment industry, like the fashion industry, should innovate, and make a valuable, viable, alternative to entice as many people from group 2 to pay for their products.
If you ensure that no one obtains any copy of the software from you without first signing this contract, then you can in effect reinvent copyright within contract law.
This is probably impossible. The consequences for unauthorized copying are far more draconian today than what you propose, and yet it's done all the time. It's easy to get free copies of pretty much any software.
One difference is that you wouldn't be able to successfully sue any third parties other than the recipient, even if the third parties continued to make further copies.
Exactly. All it would take is one person who gets the product from someone other than you, and they could redistribute to their heart's content since they did not sign your contract. You'd be stuck trying to track down the original contract violation; meanwhile you're getting killed in the marketplace by your own product.
Without copyright, they could distribute it in any way they chose...in a shiny box on the shelf right next to your shiny box, but with a far lower price since they don't have any development costs to pay down. They could run twice as many ads as you do on TV. They could show up at trade shows and put their booth right next to yours. Etc.
Build a man a fire, he's warm for one night. Set him on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.
While the graph shown at ~12:23 is interesting, is that what is being actually measured?
For those with tired old eyes, the Y-axis was Gross Sales of Good in billions of USD, and the X-axis was:
"Food Automobiles Fashion Furniture" -- which she labeled as "Low IP Industries"
"Films Books Music" -- which she labeled as "High IP Industries"
I wonder if the proper labels and groupings are, in fact:
"Food Automobiles Clothing Furniture" -- Essentials for life in the US
"Films Books Music" -- Luxuries
OR
"Food Automobiles Clothing Furniture" -- Physical items
"Films Books Music" -- (mostly) Electronic media that could be pirated more easily than stealing physical items.
This would probably also create the trend she was looking for.
You want to use an old version, that's fine, but if you want support, you should be using the newest version.
Unless the newest version of one program that you use requires an old version of a different program. For example, unless something has changed very recently, the newest version of the MySQLdb module for Python on Windows is for Python 2.5 series, which is old.
it's in malware's best interest not to be noticed - if it gets noticed, it gets removed.
Unless, for example, it's fake antivirus.
Why should we keep copyrights on 85% of works lengthened for the sake of 15% of works?
Because the publishers of proprietary works have managed to get U.S. trade negotiators to tie copyright to treaties affecting unrelated industries. The United States would first have to back out of the World Trade Organization in order to terminate copyright in works that are no longer profitable for their copyright owners.
OpenOffice is functionality equivalent for probably 99% of Office's userbase, but people still buy MS Office due to the Microsoft brand.
I'd guess the percentage of Microsoft Office users using Excel macros or Access apps is greater than 1%. But perhaps my experience is atypical because my employer relies on an Access app (from which we are slowly migrating away).
With computer software, there is clearly no point in paying for the physical item itself
In some parts of the world, the best available Internet access has a 5 GB per month cap. A point release of your operating system (e.g. from Ubuntu 9.04 to 9.10) can eat up a lot of that, so a lot of people upgrade by buying a disc.
Right now if you take just a few musical notes at random that sound good together, there's a very strong chance you'll wind up with something that has already been done, is still under copyright protection and has a pack of hungry lawyers to prove it. There was a podcast somewhere which explained this and pointed out the absurdity complete with examples, but I've forgotten where it was and a quick search doesn't reveal anything particularly helpful.
It wasn't Cryptomnesia: Vertigo, was it?
Well software/computers are on like a 1 year cycle. Who's sick of an iPhone 3GS and wants a shiny new 4th gen iPhone come June?
Fashion design must be a marginal business, with very little profit and those poor, poor innovators living in cardboard boxes and eating cat food to stay alive.
Have you seen those hors d'oeuvres they pass around?
I think it's French for 'cat food'.
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- - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
"Hemlines are lower this year"
"We have rounded the corners & changed the colors of the window chrome"
"We have changed the shape of the taillights and the location of the license-plate holder"
They are all the frickin same...
A pox on web designers who feel that window.innerWidth == screen.availWidth
Very similar - may even have been the same narrator - but I specifically remember that one of the comparisons included "Ob-la-di" by the Beatles
I remember one by the same narrator that involved a different Beatles song and the theme fron Animal Crossing 2 and 3. Cryptomnesia: Animal Crossing
Here's the bottom of the apparel food chain. "Bulk Bale Clothing". $0.25/lb. Minimum order 55,000 pounds. Supply availability 1,000,000 pounds per month. Bulk in 1000 pound bales.
That's just one of a hundred similar suppliers. "We currently have 28 containers of brand name clothing acquired in a bank deal." "250,000 lbs baled used clothing. 25% coats,sweaters, heavy clothing. $0.84/lb."
That's life in the no-IP world of apparel. The wastage is enormous.
Copyright isn't the only IP protection that software enjoys. It also enjoys patent protection as well and that, more than anything else is really harming the public. Adobe, for example, owns patents associated with CMYK color separation and so it hasn't been available in programs like the GiMP. I am never going to buy Photoshop. I would prefer to use GiMP. GiMP isn't all it can be simply because of software patents. (Sad thing is, CMYK isn't what anyone should consider to be novel. Print has been using CMYK color separation for a long, long time before computers were involved. Doing it with a computer later falls under the classification of "obvious.")
In any case, software copyright isn't and shouldn't be necessary. Software should be free. Sure, people should be paid for writing it and should be paid for supporting it, but when publishing and distributing is as close to free as it is today, the people behind it are just printing money and not creating anything at all.
I think his idea was that companies which use a steam-like UI to provide software in a manner which would have previously been considered piracy (possibly for a price, possibly with malware or just ads in the download system's gui). I suspect he's right, but people would still see the benefit of buying what we think of as legitimate copies (especially with the sort of marketing power organisations like the BSA have). How many do I don't know, but I suspect a large proportion of the home users who buy legitimate software do so because it is safer and because you get patches, not because they are afraid of being sued. Also, abolishing copyright wouldn't prevent companies using DRM to make it hard to use copies which did not come from them.
Businesses would be more affected by abolishing copyright, since they are generally interested in using many copies of the same software, but a site-licence could still be implemented using either a pre-sale contract, or by making use of the reason no one ever got fired for buying IBM: support and buck-passing. If you are using "pirate" copies, you lose that, and have to handle any DRM they chose to throw at you, and probably get no patches, so your system is likely to be very insecure after a short time.
Copyright protects the design. Yet to produce the knockoff of the design in clothing, one has to produce clothing. To knock off the design of software, one merely needs to make a digital copy. There is a very big difference in costs of capital and time.
Your condescension only shows you missed that very simple point the first time.
.. they are build of cheaper materials.. I can hardly imagine software made of "cheaper materials".
You will learn for yourself what I am about to tell you now.
It is a very simple truth, but many people can't quite grasp it. Particularly in our modern, fast-moving world.
Culture and art NEVER go "out of fashion".
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
I was here back in the '90s (and for a short while even back in the '70s), and so I can't make such a claim.
Also... watch any Tarantino movie and then try saying that disco is dead.
Regardless of how much I wished it was so.
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
The Chinese have[1] invented time travel?
[1] or will have did inventing. Time travel buggers up tenses.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
When it gets to spring that warm sweater goes to the back of the wardrobe because it's not being worn. When autumn rolls around and I dig it out it's still fine. Not obsolete at all.
And I never said anything about buying an exact identical replacement (no, same kind != identical) because I don't need to - I've already got one. Perhaps if you weren't so stupid you could afford a bigger house with a bit more storage space?
P.S. I have no idea what all that crap about my mother dressing me is supposed to be (an insult perhaps?) but at least she isn't a fat whore like yours.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
I know, and it still doesn't sound particularly similar to me (see disclaimer). But I now have the words "Bumping up and down on a big red tractor" in my head and I can't get rid of them. Thanks a bloody bunch.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
I still doubt that anyone would go to the trouble of disassembling and fully comment commercial software.
Doubt this.
Notice it says "limited time"
Anything beyond the author's life is prima facie "unlimited" between the concerned parties. Anything just short of that fails the "promote" test.
Sam Clemens's strategy is more valid.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)