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No iPhone Apps, Please — We're British

GMGruman writes "The BBC has stirred up quite a row in Britain about a shocking use of taxpayer funds: creating iPhone apps to provide citizens services. As InfoWorld blogger Galen Gruman notes, it's apparently bad in Britain for the government to use modern technology during a recession, a mentality he likens as a shift from 'cool Britannia' to 'fool Britannia.'"

393 comments

  1. Maybe something everybody can use? by SigNuZX728 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    iPhone apps are great and all, but they're not much use to people who don't have iPhones. Why not work on regular old websites? Also you run the risk of Apple pulling your app from the store. Then there's thousands of taxpayer pounds down the drain.

    1. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by JustinRLynn · · Score: 5, Funny

      iPhone is best (NSFW language)

    2. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by Redlazer · · Score: 1, Insightful
      You're right - they should make an Android app instead. They're cheaper, open, and there are many more devices with it.

      Websites are great and all, but they are apparently not the best way to motivate the people.

      --
      Guns don't kill people, "with glowing hearts" kills people.
    3. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by janek78 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      While I'm all for the governments embracing modern tools and technology, developing an app for a selected brand of phones to help motorcyclists - that's just ridiculous.

      TFA makes a point that "It's very likely that not all of the government's iPhone apps were well-conceived -- but neither are all of the private sector apps in the App Store". But the private ones are not funded with our tax money! It's alarming that the author does not see the difference. Let private parties make ridiculously absurd applications that only two people in the world have use for. Let them make apps that NO-ONE needs or wants. But the government does not have this liberty, the government does not have any of its own money or resources.

      If there is demand for an app that acts as a warning light for motorists, let someone make and sell it, let people compete for whose is the best.

      Dear government, you are (almost) always ineffective and always expensive. Please remember that and stick with doing your real job.

    4. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by Gordonjcp · · Score: 4, Informative

      Not to mention that the apps don't seem terribly useful. Have a look at the original BBC article - to quote, "The most expensive application was a proposed Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA) app that provides "a masterclass for changing your wheel"." and then goes on to explain how it can act as a hazard warning light, calculate fuel consumption and track RAC patrols. So, right there you've got an app costing (apparently) £40,000 to develop, that only runs on a single, expensive platform and is only of use to RAC members who don't know how to change a wheel. Waitaminute.

      Firstly, if you passed your test in the UK in the past five years then knowing how to change a wheel is actually part of the test. You don't have to actually do it on the test, you just have to demonstrate that you know how - so if, for example, you're disabled you could ask someone to help and tell them what to do. Furthermore, if you don't know how to change a wheel, *and* you have RAC cover, then you could just phone the RAC and within half an hour or so a guy in a big orange van will be along and change it for you.

      That forty grand could be spent on far more useful things.

    5. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by BagOBones · · Score: 4, Funny

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAOtC9QfXac the other side also NSFW language

      --
      EA David Gardner -"... but the consumers have proven that actually what they want is fun."
    6. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by SquarePixel · · Score: 5, Insightful

      They might be cheaper and more open, but there definitely isn't more Android phones around. If we go by marketshare, best bet is Symbian.

      However it doesn't really make any sense to make apps for such a divided market. Websites work just fine from a phone and they work for all.

    7. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by rishistar · · Score: 1

      Totally agree. In fact the best thing to do is to provide a good mobile website, not an app. I love the fact that National Rail provides a great one for example.

      --
      Professor Karmadillo Songs of Science
    8. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by sznupi · · Score: 1

      Website would do. If an app is the way to go (not the case here), then first it should be certainly j2me one.

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
    9. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by Hamsterdan · · Score: 1, Troll

      Interface and OS.. Many reasons why I'm running Leopard on my AMD dual core. And I'm keeping my jailbroken iPhone. The interface just works...

      --
      I've got better things to do tonight than die.
    10. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by Hamsterdan · · Score: 0, Troll

      Besides, it's BSD...

      --
      I've got better things to do tonight than die.
    11. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by phonewebcam · · Score: 2, Funny

      iPhone 5 is better

    12. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And roads in Newcastle are not much use to me living in Birmingham...

    13. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by Brett+Buck · · Score: 1

      Uh, you have to know how to change tires to pass the test? Why in God's name is that a test point? It's certainly not relevant to safe driving. I have had 1 flat tire in 35+ years. I certainly know how to change them (changed many a tire on race cars), but I would wager that most people would call the auto club.

    14. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by merichards · · Score: 1

      I absolutely agree - most people have other mobiles, why spend everybody's money on something only some people can use? Use the money to produce a decent web-site, pared down to suit all mobile phones, that everybody can use.

    15. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by Vintermann · · Score: 0

      Dear government, you are (almost) always ineffective and always expensive. Please remember that and stick with doing your real job.

      Yeah! I had this sudden malaise at work, like I was all sleepy and slow. Turned out a state-owned pension fund had bought stock in our company!

      --
      xkcd is not in the sudoers file. This incident will be reported.
    16. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're American right?

    17. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by Ross+D+Anderson · · Score: 1

      What? I did my test last year and I personally guarantee that changing a wheel, or even being asked how to, is not part of the test. During the test they may ask two out of a number of vehicle safety checks but as you'll see, the closest question to being asked to change the wheel is to identify when the tyre needs changing.
      Perhaps it is part of the Pass Plus course?

    18. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by Richard_at_work · · Score: 1

      Firstly, if you passed your test in the UK in the past five years then knowing how to change a wheel is actually part of the test. You don't have to actually do it on the test, you just have to demonstrate that you know how

      I passed my UK driving test in January 2008, and changing a tyre was not on either the theory or practical syllabuses, my instructor never mentioned it (and he supplied me with a 10 page list of the question-answer things that the tester will ask during the practical - changing a tyre is not on it, I just checked) and my tester never asked about it. None of the reading materials I used (and still have) mention it as a test requirement.

      The UK test has part that are designed to ensure that you can keep a car running safely and economically - it covers such stuff as identifying a slack handbrake, testing levels and topping up fluids and knowing the legal limits on tyres, but it does not require you to be able to change a tyre.

    19. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by qc_dk · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Because I live in Scandinavia and changing tires(summer/winter) is most certainly relevant to safe driving?

      Plus, Scandinavia is one of them ebul sociamolist places without poor people, so getting your tires changed is ~$100 (cost of labour only), and I'm paying 60% tax. It makes no sense for me to work two days more to afford something I could do myself in 30 minutes.

    20. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      Java. Works on almost every fucking phone out there, including most 100euro+ non-smartphones made in the last couple of years.

      Why not use that?

    21. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by vilms · · Score: 0

      National Rail timetabling/route information on the BlackBerry is plain and simple and FAST. Which is exactly what I need. It makes the £3.5k I fork out on a season ticket slightly more reasonable...
      Then again, I am trying to work up the right degree of anger to vent my spleen about this iPhone app. I can't. Because, you know what? The fact that they're looking this way for application development is probably a good thing. What use would a website that only works -say- in Internet Explorer 6 be? At least they're trying to be contemporary. And £40k? *pfffffft!*

    22. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by mcvos · · Score: 2, Interesting

      According to TFA, a whopping 40,000 pounds was wasted on this. Compared to the many millions that are regularly wasted on websites, I don't see this as a terribly big deal. If the apps are useful at all, I'd rather have the government expand this project to other platforms than to stop it completely.

      As for wasted tax money, most government websites (where I live at least) cost way more than they should. If you fix that, you can fund thousands of iPhone apps with the money you saved.

    23. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by CrazeeCracker · · Score: 1

      Without having read TFA (I'm at work, gimme a break..), I'd offer the opinion that the most sensible thing to do would be to let the private sector handle making all the apps. This gets rid of two problems:

      A) Not catering to everybody's platform.
      2) Not catering to everybody's needs and tastes
      (Because, let's face it, it's impossible to make everyone happy at once.)

      If there's data or services that only the government can provide, they should offer APIs that allow developers to take advantage of them. That way, everybody wins. The government's happy because they've done their part, the people are happy because they've got their app, and the devs are happy because they get to be the middle-man, possibly making a profit while they're at it.

      There. That wasn't so hard.

      --
      Of course I didn't RTFA.
    24. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by prefect42 · · Score: 1

      Firstly, if you passed your test in the UK in the past five years then knowing how to change a wheel is actually part of the test. You don't have to actually do it on the test, you just have to demonstrate that you know how - so if, for example, you're disabled you could ask someone to help and tell them what to do.

      No, you don't necessarily get asked. There's a randomly selected part that relates to that. You're expected to know where things are under the bonnet (so may be asked to show where things are), and there's a more practical test to walk through the steps to check your lights are working or to test if your power steering has failed. I can believe it's in the random list of things you're supposed to know, but you've probably only got a 25% chance of being asked about it. But having taken my test in the past five years, I can tell you that not only is it randomly selected, but it's seemingly optional.

      --

      jh

    25. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Dear government, you are (almost) always ineffective and always expensive. Please remember that and stick with doing your real job.

      This is true. I'm especially pleased with the improvement in service and reduction in costs I've enjoyed from British Telecom and the utilities post-privatisation. Oh, wait...

    26. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by Superken7 · · Score: 1

      Well, assuming you are talking about the "old standard" J2ME, no it does not work on android or iphone - the two fastest-growing players in the mobile market.

      IMHO a website should be the way to go

    27. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by nmg196 · · Score: 1

      > should make an Android app instead. They're cheaper, open, and there are many more devices with it.

      No, there are nothing like as many Android devices as there are iPhones. There are only a quarter or up to a third (depending on which website you read).

      Android only has a 9% market share, compared with iPhone's 28% and RIM Blackberry at 35%. source

    28. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Then there's Java (Micro Edition), which is multi-platform, except for iPhone which won't run it.

    29. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by HopefulIntern · · Score: 1

      I can confirm, as my youngest brother is doing his test this summer (already failed once). Changing the tyre, for some reason, is not part of the test. It really is ridiculous. In most countries, other than 'Murrika (and apparently the UK) it is knowledge any driver has, and asking a mechanic to come out and do it for you would be laughable.

    30. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by ultranova · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Dear government, you are (almost) always ineffective and always expensive. Please remember that and stick with doing your real job.

      That is not the real problem here. What is is that using tax money to make iPhone apps is giving Apple an unfair advantage over its competitors at taxpayer's expense, making this yet another example of corporate welfare.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    31. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by nmg196 · · Score: 1

      > If we go by marketshare, best bet is Symbian.

      Er, no! Symbian only has a 2% market share and falling. Personally, I don't even know anyone with a Symbian phone anymore - they've moved to Blackberrys or iPhones.

    32. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by koiransuklaa · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Referring to US statistics in a story about British application development is quite useless. Note that I'm not saying there are more Android phones in the UK or anything like that, I'm only saying the statistics you refer to are probably not useful because the American market is not representative of the rest of the world (it could be for UK, but I doubt it).

    33. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by ultranova · · Score: 1

      Because I live in Scandinavia and changing tires(summer/winter) is most certainly relevant to safe driving?

      Plus, Scandinavia is one of them ebul sociamolist places without poor people, so getting your tires changed is ~$100 (cost of labour only), and I'm paying 60% tax. It makes no sense for me to work two days more to afford something I could do myself in 30 minutes.

      Um, what? I, too, live in Scandinavia, and it takes about $20 to change your tires in a repair shop - less than that if you use one of those temporary changing places that pop up at spring and fall.

      Also, the only Scandinavian country where tax rate even goes to 60% is Denmark, and even there it tops at 62.28%, which would require you to be a top earner - according to Wikipedia, even the equivalent of $138,000 wouldn't hit even 50%, much less 60%. Which means there's no way in Hell you'd have to work for two days for a net gain of $100.

      Care to explain?

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    34. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by BasilBrush · · Score: 4, Informative

      Er, no! Symbian only has a 2% market share and falling.

      The link you give refers to some form of US only survey. They don't make it clear, other than using the word "National" rather than "International".

      The article is talking about the UK, and last time I looked that is not one of the US states.

      Worldwide, Symbian is still the market leader, with 44.3% of the market. The nearest competitor is RIM with 19.4%.
      http://www.gartner.com/it/page.jsp?id=1372013

    35. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by SkunkPussy · · Score: 1

      err no.

      Blackberry in the UK at 35%? LOL!

      Blackberry in the world at 35%? LOL!

      Blackberry popular in the US as a niche market because they cottoned on to text messages rather late....

      Symbian is 30%+ world wide, most of nokia's recent phones are on it for example. Although the one correct thing you and that article said(as it didn't state that it was talking about the US market) is that Symbian is falling.

      Its not the first time its been said on this website but US != The World

      --
      SURELY NOT!!!!!
    36. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by Khyber · · Score: 1

      'It's certainly not relevant to safe driving."

      Sure, you keep saying that the next time you ask some fool to properly tighten your lug nuts.

      Assuming they can even align the rim to the rotor and not leave it BARELY off-angle so the thing wobbles like mad, and eventually falls off.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    37. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by jewelie · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Er, no! Symbian only has a 2% market share and falling. Personally, I don't even know anyone with a Symbian phone anymore - they've moved to Blackberrys or iPhones.

      People with money have moved, the rest of us are still using older phones or none at all. (Being a geek doesn't always mean being rich.)

      Government made apps for specific platforms are just an unfair waste of money - IF any were to be made, they should have been made in J2ME.

      Although not everyone has personal access to the internet (I know many in such a position), everyone has access to libraries, and libraries provide access to computers and the internet, so information being supplied by websites would be FAR more appropriate.

      If mobile access is required, why not make the websites standards compliant and terse and to the point enough such that they are accessible on mobiles; all modern mobiles can access the internet if need be.

      I'm annoyed as heck that apps are being provided by the government exclusively to the elite and their Jesus phones. Totally inappropriate, especially during a recession. However, it seems to be an internal trend in the BBC too unfortunately, prioritising iPhone and iPad access over more open platforms; they seem to think everyone and their kitteh has one or the other. :(

    38. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      Quite right. Here's the Worldwide stats.

      http://www.gartner.com/it/page.jsp?id=1372013

    39. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by jewelie · · Score: 1

      Additionally that link didn't make it clear whether those statistics were based on sales, or on what is actually being used out there.

      In the UK (and I believe in much of Europe), mobiles have been popular for a long time to a wide selectino of the public, especially Pay-as-you-go, and consequently out there in the real world there are huge numbers of individuals using older non-smart phones.

      Not everyone is hoping up the rungs on the phone-upgrade-ladder.

    40. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by dintech · · Score: 1

      Websites work just fine from a phone

      Not my phone you insensitive clod! Now get off my lawn!

    41. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because 1500 deaths a year occur on the hard shoulder. The longer you and your flat tyre are waiting by the side of the road, the more chance that a silly, every day occurrence turns into a death.

    42. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by BasilBrush · · Score: 3, Informative

      Given that you don't live in the UK, it's not your government, and it's not your tax money. So spare us the pleas.

      The dumb article has it wrong. It's not an app for "motorcyclists", it's an app for "motorists". Motorcyclists don't "change their wheel" by the roadside, they don't carry a spare. A few might carry a spare innertube. But that's not what this app is about.

      Reading between he lines the app appears to be one to encourage people to update their details with the DVLA - who are in charge of road tax and licensing. In order to encourage people to download it, it has some motoring utilities, such as the ones mentioned.

      What we have here is a chain of misinformation that goes TPA -> BBC -> Galen Gruman -> "GM" Gruman -> Slashdot. The TPA is "The Tax Payers Alliance", which is a right wing lobby group against pretty much any government spending, that routinely twists the truth in press releases, and is responsible as a result for a lot of misinformation in UK news channels. So a rocky start, but at each step of the way, the message has become more twisted still.

    43. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by Jedi+Alec · · Score: 1

      Assuming they can even align the rim to the rotor and not leave it BARELY off-angle so the thing wobbles like mad, and eventually falls off.

      Eventually? Isn't changing a tire in case of a flat supposed to be something you do to get to your destination, after which you have the flat fixed, put back on and aligned by a professional?

      --

      People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
    44. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well having been in a car a few weeks ago it doesn't seem to be that much part of the test - we broke down on the M25 and the driver didn't even have a spare wheel in the boot let alone be able to change it. So he used his phone to ring someone who arranged for a tow-truck to turn up and take the car off the motorway.

    45. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by Manip · · Score: 2, Informative

      Changing a tire is not part of the UK driving test as it stands. You do have to know how to check the tire for damage, check the oil, and water levels.

      Also saying "change the wheel" doesn't mean what you think it means....

    46. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      TFA makes a point that "It's very likely that not all of the government's iPhone apps were well-conceived -- but neither are all of the private sector apps in the App Store". But the private ones are not funded with our tax money!

      To which you reply

      That is not the real problem here. What is is that using tax money to make iPhone apps ...

      Nooo! The problem is NOT that they are using tax money, they REAL problem is that they are instead using our tax money!

    47. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by tehcyder · · Score: 2, Informative

      Uh, you have to know how to change tires to pass the test? Why in God's name is that a test point? It's certainly not relevant to safe driving. I have had 1 flat tire in 35+ years. I certainly know how to change them (changed many a tire on race cars), but I would wager that most people would call the auto club.

      The UK has sensibly decided to include this, as well as questions about routine maintenance in the driving test. It means that fewer people will drive around in dangerous vehicles simply because they don't know how to check the oil level or tyre pressure.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    48. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by TheRaven64 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      There are two things wrong with that number. Firstly, it is for Smartphones only, not Feature Phones, which are regarded as a separate segment. Symbian owns over 70% of the (much larger) Feature Phone market. This includes phones that can install and run arbitrary apps, browse the web, send emails, and so on, but for some segmentation reason do not command a premium price.

      The second problem is that it's a US number. The US mobile phone market sucks. You have competing standards, no interoperability, and a lot of carrier lock in. In the UK, it is very common (even among non-geeks) to buy a pre-pay SIM and pop it in your existing phone, to buy phones unlocked, and for the person on the fastest upgrade cycle to pass their phone on to one of their friends and have the whole thing trickle down.

      In a completely unscientific study, I tried counting the types of phone I saw on the train when I last went to London. I saw two iPhones, no blackberries, and I lost count of Symbian phones some time over 70. I didn't see any Android phones until I got very close to my destination (Google London). I've not seen a N900 in the wild yet, though I'd be quite tempted by one in a year or so when you can pick them up cheaply.

      For reference, my current phone is one I picked up for under £50 (including a bluetooth earpiece) when I lost my last one. It runs Symbian, supports UMTS and WiFi, can act as a bluetooth modem, and can make SIP calls (over WiFi or UMTS, although I only use it over UMTS). It has a built-in web browser and mail client, although I rarely use either. I can install my own apps on it - for example I installed an app that lets me carry around and view a local copy of the OpenStreetMap maps for my local area (I also installed the Google Maps app, but it requires a network connection, and most of the time I need a map it's when I am in the middle of the countryside). This phone is counted as a Feature Phone, not a Smartphone, so would not count in the statistic that you quoted.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    49. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      Add to that, a lot of people have hand-me-down phones. When I upgrade my phone (which I do rarely), I hand the old one on to either a friend or family member who is using an inferior phone (usually an older one, but not always). Sometimes the converse happens, and I get given a better phone than the one that I was using. You can get quite reasonable feature phones (i.e. things that were called smartphones a couple of years ago) for very little second hand, and anything at the low end is worth so little second hand that you may as well just give it to a friend in exchange for a couple of beers. Just because someone trades in their old phone for an iPhone doesn't mean that the old phone goes out of circulation. More probably, it goes to someone else, who passes their phone on, and so on.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    50. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by AlXtreme · · Score: 1

      What is better, developing an iPhone app for 40,000 that is used by 100 people or developing a website for 4M with 10000 users?

      But I agree, if government were to cut out the middlemen in website projects they would be able to get that 4M quid website for less than the cost of an iPhone app. But it's always easy to spend money that's not your own.

      --
      This sig is intentionally left blank
    51. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by heathen_01 · · Score: 1

      Apps can work offline. 3G in London with 02 is not reliable.

    52. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      There are two things wrong with that number. Firstly, it is for Smartphones only, not Feature Phones, which are regarded as a separate segment. Symbian owns over 70% of the (much larger) Feature Phone market. This includes phones that can install and run arbitrary apps, browse the web, send emails, and so on, but for some segmentation reason do not command a premium price.

      No. The ability to install and run arbitrary (i.e. third party) native apps is the differentiator between smartphones and feature phones. Not price.

      The definition of native being: using the same APIs that the built in applications use. Feature phones may have J2ME, but you can't use it to create an app that appears like the ones that are built in.

    53. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by Eunuchswear · · Score: 1

      Symbian owns over 70% of the (much larger) Feature Phone market.

      Symbian owns 0% of the feature phone market. Nokia feature phones run S40 (or even S30), which is not Symbian.

      --
      Watch this Heartland Institute video
    54. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      Someone really ought to tell the people collecting these statistics that. They've classed my last two phones (N70 and N80) as featurephones, in spite of the fact they provide J2ME and C++ APIs and can run arbitrary programs.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    55. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by teslar · · Score: 3, Funny

      Because I live in Scandinavia and changing tires(summer/winter) is most certainly relevant to safe driving?

      Sure, but why would a DVLA test be relevant to you if you live in Scandinavia? Conversely, why should the DVLA test for things that might be useful in Scandinavia? I agree that it's useful to know how to change tires (and it ain't exactly rocket science anyways). But "the British DVLA should test it because it saves me money in Norway" is not a good argument.

    56. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah duh governments act to provide services when the demand is insufficient for the capitalist market. How is competition going to fix that?

    57. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by ByOhTek · · Score: 1

      compared to iPhones, their are more android phones (although no one model outsells the iPhone).

      That being said, you are correct on the Symbian point.

      A better point, I believe, is the government promoting a single corporation - by making only iPhone apps, the are promoting Apple.

      Web sites are good, and if not, why not iPhone + Android + Symbian apps?

      --
      Self proclaimed typo king, and inventor of the bear destroying coffee table (patent not pending).
    58. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by jimicus · · Score: 1

      Because 1500 deaths a year occur on the hard shoulder. The longer you and your flat tyre are waiting by the side of the road, the more chance that a silly, every day occurrence turns into a death.

      Except changing your own tyre on the hard shoulder of a motorway is one thing you are MOST DEFINITELY IN BIG SHOUTY CAPITAL LETTERS not supposed to do.

      What you're supposed to do is get out of the car, stand on the other side of the barrier and call for assistance from there.

    59. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by DJRumpy · · Score: 1

      You link would be more useful if it was for a smartphone market. No one I know browses on a standard phone and the app market for standard phones is pretty much limited to really bad Tetris, or bejeweled clones. It's just too painful.

      http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/09/11/12/apples_iphone_captures_17_of_worldwide_smartphone_market.html

      The top 5 in the Smartphone Market are Nokia, RIM, Apple, HTC, Samsung rounding out the top 5.

    60. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by icebraining · · Score: 1

      Android J2ME Runner: http://www.netmite.com/android/

      Benefit to developers:

      Developers can enter the Android Market quickly.
      You can use your familiar development environment
      such as J2ME and MIDP or easily port your existing
      J2ME Application to Android with minimum code change.

    61. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by Beyond_GoodandEvil · · Score: 1

      In most countries, other than 'Murrika (and apparently the UK) it is knowledge any driver has, and asking a mechanic to come out and do it for you would be laughable.
      Still smarting over that 1-1 draw huh?

      --
      I laughed at the weak who considered themselves good because they lacked claws.
    62. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hmm, yes, if we're to believe the article, that the outcry comes from the BBC and nowhere else, well, carbon covered cooking containers spring to mind. I can think of no one who does a better job of wasting public money on poorly conceived and platform restricted tech projects than Auntie. They, and that insufferable troll rory, have quite a thing for the iProducts too, come to think of it.

    63. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by Haeleth · · Score: 1

      Not to mention that it's simply none of the government's business to create an app that lets people do a bunch of stuff that has nothing to do with the government! I would rather the DVLA concentrated on administering driver and vehicle licensing, and let the RAC take care of holding the hands of RAC members.

    64. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Firstly, if you passed your test in the UK in the past five years then knowing how to change a wheel is actually part of the test.

      I passed my test a year ago and I didn't have to prove anything about tyre changing; there were a number of questions about car maintenance, such as checking oil levels and tyre tread depth, but actually changing a tyre was not one of them.

      I actually have no idea how to change a tyre.

    65. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Which are equally useless here. We're looking for the British stats.

    66. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by qc_dk · · Score: 2, Informative

      Um, what? I, too, live in Scandinavia, and it takes about $20 to change your tires in a repair shop - less than that if you use one of those temporary changing places that pop up at spring and fall.

      Not here.

      Also, the only Scandinavian country where tax rate even goes to 60% is Denmark

      You Sir, have won some herring.

      and even there it tops at 62.28%, which would require you to be a top earner - according to Wikipedia, even the equivalent of $138,000 wouldn't hit even 50%, much less 60%. Which means there's no way in Hell you'd have to work for two days for a net gain of $100.

      Care to explain?

      I most certainly would care. You are confounding average tax and marginal tax. Once I have hit an income of 59000 dollars(I'm just about there) a year I pay 60% tax on everything earned beyond that. So if I have to have a net gain of 100$ I would have to earn 250$. I earn about 160$ a day. So I would have to work ~1.6 days more, not taking travel costs and extra expenses into account. Not so far from two days I would say.

      Bonus info: about 1/3 of all working Danes are earning enough to hit the top percentage.

    67. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by squiggleslash · · Score: 1

      Not sure about that. MIDP apps do tend to look and feel like other phone components on most of the phones I've used them on. On some phones the means to start them is centralized (though can be circumvented by setting up a shortcut), but others just shove them in as more menu options under, say, the Office, section. The apps themselves almost always have interfaces virtually identical to the native system unless the programmer has chosen to do otherwise. The major disadvantage of MIDP is that you're at the mercy of the carriers being fascists and the manufacturers being whores - I've had at least one phone where MIDP applets weren't allowed to access the Internet, for example. But "native look and feel"? MIDP does that pretty well, actually. How can it not? The keypad-phone UI is almost wholly standardized now, with the differences between manufacturers being limited to the layout the menus, and what the cursor keys do when no menu is displayed.

      The difference between a Smartphone and a Featurephone used to be that a Smartphone was programmable by the user. Since phones with keypads started to become more capable, and Apple redefined the term when it announced the iPhone, the term "Smartphone" became a phone that's essentially controlled by a touchpad, with the previous distinction completely blown away. Apple's original iPhone was referred to as a Smartphone even in the early days when Apple was telling developers that the only API on it was the web and had no intention of providing native app support. The irony was that the iPhone, in those days, was less programmable than the average Motorola flip phone.

      If I were in the UK government's shoes, I'd concentrate on putting together a three level website, a basic WAP version for simple keypad operated phones, a more advanced version optimized for touchscreen phones, and a desktop version. These make more sense than writing "apps" for MIDP, Symbian (keypad), Symbian (communicator type phones), Android, webOS, Blackberry, iOS (if you get permission), and BREW (Ha ha! Just kidding!)

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    68. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by the_womble · · Score: 2, Funny

      Of course its a US state:

      Tony Blair

    69. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by DJRumpy · · Score: 1

      I have to agree to some extent. On the surface, you would think they would get broader penetration using a mobile web page, rather than a hardware specific app, but then again, getting someone to browse to a web site on a smartphone is not as simple as letting them install an app which targets exactly the information they are trying to get out. Rather than a user browsing to a site, drilling down to the specific area, resizing the page and scrolling as needed, finding links, etc, they can target the interface specifically for that experience. One of the main reasons that integrated apps are so much more popular then web based apps.

      It's also very possible that everyone is jumping the gun and that apps for android and rim are in the works...

    70. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by SCHecklerX · · Score: 1

      That's a good point.

      The government's role should be to simply provide the data and perhaps some APIs to get to it. Let others write tools to access it. The tools that there is demand for will be written, and citizens can write their own tools just like any big company could then.

    71. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by HopefulIntern · · Score: 1

      I'm Norwegian. We didn't qualify.

    72. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      from the InfoWorld article: "...an app that shows motorcyclists how to change their wheels and acts as a warning light ..."

      Because everyone knows that motorcyclists carry a spare......

      Dimwit!

    73. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by jlar · · Score: 1

      And out of a BBC budget of more than 7 billion USD per year the savings could have been in the order of 0.0006% on the budget.

      This discussion is way out of proportions. If we should be discussing government waste we could easily find an example involving more than one man years work.

    74. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by Rogerborg · · Score: 1

      And 25 cries of "Meh, it's just 40K" later, you've blown through another million. Take care of the 40Ks and the millions will take care of themselves.

      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    75. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by Rogerborg · · Score: 1

      The TPA is "The Tax Payers Alliance", which is a right wing lobby group against pretty much any government spending, that routinely twists the truth in press releases

      Counterpoint: BasilBrush is a socialist activist against pretty much any opposition to government spending, who routinely twists the truth in Slashdot posts.

      Hey, who knew that making sweeping biased statements without bothering to cite even a shred of evidence in support would be so fun and easy? We should all do it, and drag the level of political discourse into the sub sewer.

      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    76. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by @madeus · · Score: 1

      Rather than focusing on device specific implementations, I think they should be developing HTML5 offline mode for their mobile apps apps. It requires less effort, is quicker and providers similar functionality (though admittedly with a few exceptions).

      Offline apps are new to most web developers, but it's pretty simple to implement them. They work very well on mobile platforms like the iPhone, Android phones (and devices like the iPad, which we may or may not see more of in future) and can be easily adapted to work as standalone applications both on mobile devices and on the desktop (e.g. an HTML controller that fills a window (on desktop) or full screen (on devices)).

      Some of the more advance features of HTML5 are a bit lacking (e.g. cross platform sound and video support for offline applications and nothing like WebGL yet) but the basics (JavaScript, decent canvas and 2D rendering performance (30+ FPS full screen animation, even on older hardware), auto-updating & caching mechanisms) are well supported by Chrome, Firefox, Safari and webkit on both Android and iOS.

      If a tool proves popular, then using something like PhoneGap (on mobile) or Mozilla Prisim (or just rolling your own full screen / windowed mode app) could be warranted to extend the functionality and / or make it available to a wider audience for minimum extra effort.

      Although, I would agree the full screen / windowed HTML view approach generally makes a lot more sense for most mobile devices (where quite a few commercial apps are using it) than for most desktop applications. That could be remedy by a better standard way of deploying offline desktop apps (e.g. A "Click to Install" option, something akin to IE's ClickOnce) but that doesn't seem to be on the cards at the moment (although Google Chrome on Windows/Linux has a menu option for this, and you can download a plugin for Firefox to do it).

    77. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by mdwh2 · · Score: 1

      His link was for the ill-defined "smartphone" category - Table 2 was "Worldwide Smartphone Sales to End Users by Operating System".

      Worldwide, Nokia actually have less market share (35%), although they're still number one.

      Apple incidentally are at 2.7%, which means that the Government is locking out 97.3% of phone users (probably more, when we look at the installed user base rather than current sales).

      No one I know browses on a standard phone

      That's a good survey. Even my mum (who has yet to work out the address book) manages to access the BBC site for news and weather.

      and the app market for standard phones is pretty much limited to really bad Tetris, or bejeweled clones.

      It's good enough for Opera Mini and Google Maps. Sure, if a particular Government app can't run on J2ME because it needs high end "smartphone" features, they can't write for it. But if they can, it should be supported.

    78. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by nomadic · · Score: 1

      People with money have moved, the rest of us are still using older phones or none at all. (Being a geek doesn't always mean being rich.)

      Yes, I noticed my butler was using a non-smartphone at one point to call his aged mother. Obviously I had him soundly whipped for daring to make a personal call during the workday, but it did stick in my mind that it was not an iphone. Oh well, off to the yacht club. Cheers, everyone.

    79. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by elrous0 · · Score: 1

      They should bring this to the U.S. Our taxpayers really need to lose thousands of pounds.

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    80. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by mdwh2 · · Score: 1

      People with money have moved

      I agree entirely with your post, although I'd add that even this isn't true. I'm lucky enough to have money, but even at the same price I would prefer anything over the Iphone. Also, just because I have money, doesn't mean I throw it away unnecessarily - whilst I think Android looks just as good as Symbian, I have no desire for a 1GHz phone, and spending £180 was more than good enough for me. That meant I got a Nokia phone, as there was nothing that ran Android in that price range (nor from RIM, come to that).

      There's a common myth that "rich people get Iphones" - it's turning into the technological equivalent of designer labels. People pay for an expensive logo to show off their wealth, but no one else cares, and we get the same functionality and save money elsewhere.

      Hell, I was at the pub the other day, and someone interrupted our conversation about phones to say "Oh, we have Iphones. We don't care about your open source operating systems. We like that it's sexy!" I mean, what?

      However, it seems to be an internal trend in the BBC too unfortunately, prioritising iPhone and iPad access over more open platforms

      Yes, I agree it is appalling. Remember the uproar over the Iplayer and being Windows only? At least Windows was 90% of the market. Now the BBC gives priority to an even more closed, and far less used platform, and that seems to be fine.

    81. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by mdwh2 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      People have already pointed out that that's a US survey (where Nokia have virtually no presence), and anecdotal "evidence" is not a good argument.

      The other problem is that you don't know how many people you know have Symbian phones. The thing to remember is that an Iphone user will advertise this fact. They get an Iphone, and post "I'm on my Iphone". And if they don't say it, their app will advertise it with every single post: "Posted using XXX for Iphone".

      Everyone else refers to their "phone". Apple users talk about their "Iphone".

      Everyone else just uses their phone. An Iphone user gets it out and says "I'm going to check the Internet On My Iphone" as if unaware that this stopped being impressive by about 2004. I've even had random strangers butt into my conversation to brag "Oh, we've got Iphones".

      Thus, your brain spots all the Iphone users, even if it's just 5% of people, and thinks it's greater than all the users who never tell you what their phone is.

      Am I wrong?

    82. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by TyFoN · · Score: 1

      There's a common myth that "rich people get Iphones" - it's turning into the technological equivalent of designer labels. People pay for an expensive logo to show off their wealth, but no one else cares, and we get the same functionality and save money elsewhere.

      I think this works the same as with expensive cloths here where i live (Oslo, Norway). The people that want to appear rich buy the expensive stuff and are going for the style 100%. The people who actually are rich doesn't bother so much.
      It's the same way with the iphone (except it's starting to become uncool again).
      Where i work there are about 70% htc, 20% nokia and 10% iphone+ericson+samsung etc.

    83. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by mdwh2 · · Score: 1

      I'd rather have the government expand this project to other platforms than to stop it completely.

      Sure, let's have the Government expand it to provide for Symbian, Blackberry, Android, Windows Mobile, J2ME etc.

      Also, looking at it in terms of value - an Iphone app reaches about 3% of phone users compared to near 100% that a website can. So the scaled cost of £40,000 is over £1.3m. Also note that the costs of the website aren't just writing the website - they include building nd running infrastructure, hosting, etc. Do the app costs include all the money for purchasing development machines, and writing, building, hosting all the back end servers needing to support the apps?

    84. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by mdwh2 · · Score: 1

      The problem is there are two debates - one is "money being wasted" the other is "only supporting a minority of people, and locking out many others".

      The former is rather less of a problem, but the latter is a valid criticism. Consider if the Government only supports Windows, there is rightly an uproar. Not about the money spent, but because it should be catering for everyone. And at least Windows is the market leader, unlike the Iphone, which doesn't come anywhere near close (especially in the UK).

    85. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by mdwh2 · · Score: 1

      Given that you don't live in the UK, it's not your government, and it's not your tax money. So spare us the pleas.

      I'm in the UK, and I agree with his pleas, and I'm thankful that he made them so well.

      Re: the rest of your post - so the details of the app are not quite right, but that doesn't address the criticisms.

      So a rocky start, but at each step of the way, the message has become more twisted still.

      So actually they're mistaken, and the Government is providing something that is platform neutral (either web based, or supporting Symbian, J2ME, along with Blackberry, Windows Mobile, Android etc), and not just the Iphone?

    86. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      exactly. would you like your government spending money on say retrofitable emissions free engines that only work on Cadillacs?
      Its a good idea but social services, at least those provided by the government and paid for by tax payer dollars, should strive to be available to everybody.
      port it to android, blackberry, etc and then spend some money to make sure everyone has an Internet enabled GPS enabled handheld device they will take with them just about everywhere.
      Don't foce it on them, make them WANT it. Isn't that what big brother wants anyway?

    87. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by john82 · · Score: 1

      As usual, posters to Slashdot seem to go out of their way to misrepresent content. Either that, or they're just to damned lazy to read or investigate. Just regurgitate someone else's nonsense.

      The real issue has nothing to do with the choice of iPhone as an app platform. It's not that the Brits are technophobes either. Both implied notions just prove my point.

      The real reason the BBC got in trouble is that it's a publicly funded institution. They wrote an app to make it easier to access BBC content (imagine). Private software firms had a snit because they felt they should be able to make a buck on BBC content. So they used the public funding issue as a red herring to prevent BBC from making the in-house developed software available.

    88. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by Gordonjcp · · Score: 1

      I passed my UK driving test in January 2008, and changing a tyre was not on either the theory or practical syllabuses

      Odd, it was in (about) 2005 when Mrs Gordonjcp was sitting her driving test. She didn't have to actually change a wheel, just demonstrate that she knew where the spare wheel, jack and wheelbrace were and describe what to do with them. The maintenance questions are picked from a random pool, so maybe you just didn't get asked - or maybe they've dropped it again.

    89. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by teh+kurisu · · Score: 1

      I didn't know National Rail had a mobile site, do you have a link for it? Or is this sarcasm? I can't tell.

      National Rail are still charging a fiver for their iPhone app, and the only reason that they can get away with that is that they pulled legal strings that ended with all competing apps being banned from the App Store. Fortunately I still have one of those competing apps on my phone, a lovely little app called Trains that cost 59p.

    90. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by teh+kurisu · · Score: 1

      Because supporting a J2ME app across a multitude of different handsets is an utter nightmare.

      Better to just write your app for one or two platforms and make it work well.

    91. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by slriv · · Score: 1

      Its not the first time its been said on this website but US != The World

      You didn't get the memo did you?

      --
      All the worlds a stage, and I'm the guy running the lights...
    92. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by aristotle-dude · · Score: 1

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAOtC9QfXac the other side also NSFW language

      That was awesome.

      A couple of true points:
      1. If you are not a developer, open source adds nothing for an end user so it is a straw man excuse to get a phone.

      2. 4G is only a benefit if you are in a 4G area and it burns through battery life like a hot knife through butter. Wimax was never designed to be used in phones and the current chipsets reflect that.

      --
      Jesus was a compassionate social conservative who called individuals to sin no more.
    93. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by jerdo · · Score: 1

      Anyone else find it funny that a government funded television group is complaining about the government wasting money?

    94. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by bigngamer92 · · Score: 1

      The article is talking about the UK, and last time I looked that is not one of the US states.

      When did this happen? I thought Oceania was still united and at war with East Asia.

    95. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by IICV · · Score: 1

      Plus, Scandinavia is one of them ebul sociamolist places without poor people, so getting your tires changed is ~$100 (cost of labour only), and I'm paying 60% tax.

      Also, the only Scandinavian country where tax rate even goes to 60% is Denmark, and even there it tops at 62.28%, which would require you to be a top earner - according to Wikipedia, even the equivalent of $138,000 wouldn't hit even 50%, much less 60%.

      I most certainly would care. You are confounding average tax and marginal tax. Once I have hit an income of 59000 dollars(I'm just about there) a year I pay 60% tax on everything earned beyond that.

      I think you're the one who's confounded average tax and marginal tax. You originally claimed to be paying 60% tax, but now you're clearly stating that you are not paying that much in tax at all.

      A simple example: let's say you earn $100. There's a 50% tax on your $100 with no other caveats, so you're paying a 50% tax. Once you earn $110, you're charged a 60% tax on everything over $100. That means that you're being charged 60% on those ten dollars, and 50% on the rest of your earnings. This means that you are paying 56/110, or 50.9% of your earnings in taxes. If you earn $120, you pay 51.6%, and so on - the effective tax rate converges on 60% as your income goes goes to infinity, but doesn't ever actually reach it for any finite income.

      Clearly, once you hit that income of $59001, you will not be charged 60% in taxes. Your effective tax rate will slowly increase as you earn more and more money, but unless there's another, higher tax rate over 60% you will (by definition) never be taxed at 60%.

      So no, claiming you're paying 60% in taxes is incorrect, unless you're literally earning an infinite amount of money.

    96. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      No, the N70, N80 and every other Series 60 phone from Nokia are smartphones.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_N70
      http://europe.nokia.com/support/product-support/nokia-n70/phone-software/smartphone

      That's not to say that someone, somewhere didn't make a mistake and tell you they are feature phones. But they aren't. They are most definately smartphones.

    97. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      You link would be more useful if it was for a smartphone market.

      It *IS* for the smartphone market. See Table 2:
      "Worldwide Smartphone Sales to End Users by Operating System in 1Q10"

    98. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by Khyber · · Score: 1

      Most people don't bother, and keep driving on the doughnut. They are idiots, doing 90+ on a poorly-secured spare tire meant to handle speeds of 55MPH.

      That is how a LOT of accidents happen in LA.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    99. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by david-bo · · Score: 1

      That is ridiculous. I just walked by a garage that offered to store "off season tires" for 500 SEK ( 50/USD65), while storing and changing the same tires would set you back 600 SEK.

      No need to work two days to afford a change of tires. This was in central Stockholm.

    100. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      No, sorry, but getting as close as possible to the native UI with MIDP doesn't cut it. Smartphones make the real OS UI controls available to their programmers, in addition to lots of access to things that MIDP does not allow.

      Apple redefined the term when it announced the iPhone

      Even if it were within Apple's power to redefine the term, they did no such thing. For the first year of it's life, when the iPhone had no SDK available, Apple just called the iPhone a phone. I did a search of the Apple website at the time and there was no mention of "smartphone" anywhere.

      Apple do refer to the iPhone as a smartphone now, but that only started after the SDK and the App Store came out, at which point it could legitimately be called a smartphone.

    101. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      Counterpoint: BasilBrush is a socialist activist against pretty much any opposition to government spending, who routinely twists the truth in Slashdot posts.

      Regardless of your tit-for-tat post, the Tax Payers Alliance is exactly what I said it is. You'd know it too if you followed UK politics. By your (ab)use of the English language, it seems you're American.

      Hardly a day goes by without these idiots sending out a press release twisting something.

    102. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      So actually they're mistaken, and the Government is providing something that is platform neutral (either web based, or supporting Symbian, J2ME, along with Blackberry, Windows Mobile, Android etc), and not just the Iphone?

      Who knows if your strawman is true? The article certainly doesn't give us enough information to know.

    103. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      Almost all symbian headsets, in spite of having several orders of magnitude more variation then ios and android combined support j2me just fine. Your argument is completely moot on this point.

    104. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by brunes69 · · Score: 1

      "If you are not a developer, open source adds nothing for an end user so it is a straw man excuse to get a phone. "

      If you really think this then you have no clue what the real benefits of an open platform are.

      All one has to do is look at all the wickedly useful Android applications that in iPhone land simply can not be written *at all*, or have to be relegated to rogue app stores because Apple will not "approve" them, for stupid reasons like "we don't allow applications that make desktops". You can't put on a better home screen, you can't put on a better dialer, you are stuck with all the horrible Apple crap forever.

    105. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why not focus on APIs and let others make the apps?

    106. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by jc79 · · Score: 1

      Parent is correct. The Taxpayers Alliance are a right-wing lobby group which routinely sends out highly biased and inaccurate press releases which somehow frequently make newspaper headlines.

      BTW, "socialist" isn't an insult in civilised countries...

    107. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The ability to install and run arbitrary (i.e. third party) native apps is the differentiator between smartphones and feature phones. The definition of native being: using the same APIs that the built in applications use.

      By your definition, iPhone is not a smartphone, then, because built-in applications use APIs (e.g. full multithreading) that third-party ones are not allowed to use.

    108. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      By your definition, iPhone is not a smartphone, then, because built-in applications use APIs (e.g. full multithreading) that third-party ones are not allowed to use.

      No, by the definition of a smartphone, the iPhones is smartphone because both built in and third party apps are programmed using Obj-C and Cocoa Touch. There are a few private APIs that CAN be used in your app, however their presence will cause Apple to refuse to put your app in the App Store. App Store policy does not change the fact that the iPhone is a smartphone.

    109. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by milkmage · · Score: 1

      exactly. if some platform (or 2) reach a overwhelming majority of the market.. it MIGHT make sense to build these apps. for now, webapps are what they need. accessible via mobile or desktop. you don't need an iphone (specific) app.

    110. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's true that it should be knowledge every driver should have. Does that mean the government should require you to know how to do it before it permits you to drive? Emphatically no.

      Changing a wheel has sweet fuck all to do with actually driving. You aren't an unsafe driver if you don't know how to do it. You aren't a hazard to other road users, you aren't a hazard to property, it can in no way detrimentally affect anybody else that you don't know how to change a wheel. Requiring it as part of the test would be like requiring knowledge of how to wash your car, or how to fill the boot most efficiently, or the examiner asking you where the best priced petrol is at the moment and failing you if you answer incorrectly. The notion is stupid.

    111. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by mcvos · · Score: 1

      But is the government locking out others? There is an Android version of the job seeker app. No idea if there's a Symbian version, but if there isn't, it could be a next step.

    112. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by mcvos · · Score: 1

      Do the app costs include all the money for purchasing development machines, and writing, building, hosting all the back end servers needing to support the apps?

      My guess is the infrastructure costs are included in the costs of the website, and the app is just a little extra that takes advantage of that but makes it a nicer and snappier experience to use it.

    113. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Government made apps for specific platforms are just an unfair waste of money

      I take it you have not seen the multitudes of local and state government web sites that blindly spout that their web site only works with Internet Explorer. BTW, they have been doing that for well over 10 years.

      I am not sure if non-USA government offices are allowed to do this practice, but I do know that many USA state governments DO do this. Being a 100% Linux desktop company, we were forced to have a MS Windows 2003 terminal server that does nothing but serve IE to our users for those specific government web sites.

      I know this is about GB, but it is already common practice, at least in the USA, for government entities to use public funds to make apps (or websites) for specific platforms. I somehow doubt there are less greased palms / lazy programmers in other countries.

    114. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by Rogerborg · · Score: 1

      Heavens, ain't it just awful when people say things you don't like, and don't even bother to provide any evidence? There should be a law against it! The next time your Socialist overlords get back in power, I'm sure they'll pass a dozen or so.

      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    115. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by IrquiM · · Score: 1

      [...]and last time I looked that is not one of the US states.

      Correct - US is a UK colony!

      --
      This is blinging
    116. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by horza · · Score: 1

      There is no reading between the lines needed. The BBC isn't there to sell iPhones, so should not be padding out the Apple store with iPhone only apps to government related services. It's as ridiculous as their Microsoft only iPlayer. The BBC should be making content/accessibility equal to all license payers.

      If the apps were produced by BBC employees in their spare time, and published with BBC prepared to put their name behind it in a gesture of support, that is one thing. There is no excuse for using tax payers money to promote a single manufacturer (not even a British one at that).

      Phillip.

    117. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      Heavens, ain't it just awful when people say things you don't like, and don't even bother to provide any evidence?

      You seem to think so.

      your Socialist overlords

      Ah, now it's clear what got your knickers in a bunch.

    118. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by Gnavpot · · Score: 1

      Clearly, once you hit that income of $59001, you will not be charged 60% in taxes. Your effective tax rate will slowly increase as you earn more and more money, but unless there's another, higher tax rate over 60% you will (by definition) never be taxed at 60%.

      Please, this is simple stuff. I don't know how you can fail to understand it.

      Once he hits that income of $59001, he will be charged 60% in taxes of of every earning beyond those $59001. He never claimed to pay 60% of his total earnings.

      The tax of the last earning is what you need to consider, when you have to decide between these two alternatives:
      1. Work one extra day for money and then use the money to hire help for work at your household.
      2. Do the work at your household yourself.

      The GP is completely right.
         

    119. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by Rogerborg · · Score: 1

      Well, don't fret over it - the imminent evisceration of the public sector will unbunch my panties nicely. After the cuts take care of your current... mmm, "employment", I'll be sure to tell you that, yes, I do want fries with that.

      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    120. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      I'll be sure to tell you that, yes, I do want fries with that.

      Right wing AND entirely uncreative and unoriginal. What a very predictable mix.

    121. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by jewelie · · Score: 1

      I take it you have not seen the multitudes of local and state government web sites that blindly spout that their web site only works with Internet Explorer. BTW, they have been doing that for well over 10 years.

      I certain have, and am not happy! Unfortunately, my local area adult learning service (council run) has this problem - can't access my course materials with Firefox etc. :( When I find myself needing to use such sites, I do normally follow the complaints procedures. To be fair, I have found very with such problems few nowadays. Doesn't stop them being quite crap and with a tendancy to render poorly with anything but the most recent browsers though!

    122. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by davester666 · · Score: 1

      HOW DARE YOU respond WITH A LITERATE, INTELLIGENT, INFORMATIVE message. PERMISSION TO POST ON slashdot HAS BEEN REVOKED!!!!!!!

      test text to abort post aborting?

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
    123. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by aristotle-dude · · Score: 1

      A couple of true points:

      1. If you are not a developer, open source adds nothing for an end user so it is a straw man excuse to get a phone.

      But where does the end users get their apps?

      The app store? Typical consumers with Android phones will get their apps from the Android marketplace. Same difference.

      Consumers are not interested in searching for and installing apps manually like some enthusiasts will.

      Not only does the App store make it easy to obtain and keep up to date applications but it takes away the need for developers to heavily market their own apps.

      --
      Jesus was a compassionate social conservative who called individuals to sin no more.
    124. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by bandmassa · · Score: 1

      Why not work on regular old websites?

      I agree with this, even as an iPhone fanboi. Government services should be platform neutral, and currently, the only way to do this to any degree of universality is to use mobile optimised web apps.

      Most of these special purpose corporate service apps are buggy as all hell and designed by chimp. At least with web apps there's hope of governments and corporations employing somebody with a broad background and familiar with web standards.

      --
      "I hope you like Guinness, Sir. I find it a refreshing substitute for, er... food." Col. Jack O'Neil, SG-1
    125. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He never claimed to pay 60% of his total earnings.

      Actually he did. He said he was paying 60% tax. Go up the thread a little. If by "60%" he meant "on some of my income, but not all", then he was using the wrong words.

    126. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by improfane · · Score: 1

      3.5k sounds like you're ~30-40ish miles from London.

      Have you considered a coach service? It was like 500 cheaper for me!

      --
      Slashdot needs Geekcode | Can anyone recommend any good SCIFI? My tastes: Foundation, Startide Rising, CITY, Ringworld,
    127. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I am a UK taxpayer, and I agree with janek and you need a little re-education:

      1. Writing iPhone apps is well outside the BBC's mandate. We fund it to do public service broadcasting, not fucking about with expensive toy phones.

      2. TPA is not right-wing, it is libertarian. You need to learn that not all tax payers are either receiving more benefits than they pay in tax or so rich they don't care. For some people, tax has a big impact on their lives. They obviously care where the money goes. How the fuck is that right wing?

      3. Your claims of misinformation are just smoke and mirrors. Unless you have a substantial complaint about the article, shut the fuck up.

    128. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by Gnavpot · · Score: 1

      He never claimed to pay 60% of his total earnings.

      Actually he did. He said he was paying 60% tax. Go up the thread a little. If by "60%" he meant "on some of my income, but not all", then he was using the wrong words.

      I had read it when I wrote my comment.

      I repeat:
      He never claimed to pay 60% of his total earnings.

      The "of his total earnings" is purely guesswork by you.

      He pays 60% of the earnings which are relevant for what was discussed. Everybody who understands the problem being discussed can clearly see that, and there no point in spelling it out.

    129. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by squiggleslash · · Score: 1

      No, sorry, but getting as close as possible to the native UI with MIDP doesn't cut it. Smartphones make the real OS UI controls available to their programmers, in addition to lots of access to things that MIDP does not allow.

      I don't think you have the slightest clue what you're talking about. Do you have any idea how the UI works on a keypad phone? What aspects of the UI are not accessible from MIDP? What parts of the phone are not accessible from a J2ME app running in a MIDP system? And don't give me an example of one phone that has a particular feature that there's no API for, because you'll find that on every phone - Apple is infamous for rejecting apps because an app is using a feature it shouldn't. And the diversity of Android handsets means that virtually all of them have features that Android's native APIs don't support, and frequently aren't supported in a way accessible to apps willing to use custom APIs too.

      Even if it were within Apple's power to redefine the term, they did no such thing. For the first year of it's life, when the iPhone had no SDK available, Apple just called the iPhone a phone. I did a search of the Apple website at the time and there was no mention of "smartphone" anywhere.

      Steve Jobs called it a "Smartphone" at the original announcement. The media willingly went along with the term after all. I have no idea why you weren't able to find the term on Apple.com, but Apple called it a Smartphone from day #1.

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    130. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      What aspects of the UI are not accessible from MIDP?

      What are you not understanding? None of the native controls are available. None. MIDP has it's own concept of what a UI is, and will skin it's controls to look something like the native controls. But skinned imitations are not the native controls. And any native controls that don't have a correspondence to MIDPs concept of a mobile phone, you're out of luck.

      Steve Jobs called it a "Smartphone" at the original announcement.

      He did no such thing. Here's the keynote.
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASkis57blsc
      Here's the press release
      http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2007/01/09iphone.html

      You'll find that the iPhone was referred to as "a revolutionary mobile phone, a widescreen iPod® with touch controls, and a breakthrough Internet communications device", but it was never referred to as a smartphone.

      You can find where the word "smartphone" was used in the press release, and discover it did not refer to the iPhone. You will not find Apple referring to the first generation iPhone as a smartphone. Not anywhere. Apple only started referring to iPhone as a smartphone after the SDK and the App Store came along. That was more than a year after the iPhone announcement.

      I have no idea why you weren't able to find the term on Apple.com, but Apple called it a Smartphone from day #1.

      I know exactly why. Because you are wrong. If you want to try and contradict me again, provide a reference. But I warn you not to waste much time on looking. You are most certainly wrong.

    131. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by sznupi · · Score: 1

      most of nokia's recent phones are on it for example

      That's not correct, Symbian is only around 20% of what Nokia sells.

      Also, while mentioning how its share is falling, one has to remember that those 45% (that's how it has now worldwide) is still larger than Nokia share of all mobile phones (37%), so actually quite nice. It has biggest gains by the number of units - remember it's not a zero sum game, "smartphone" market is simply rapidly expanding (also in some large and visible markets where phones were traditionally castrated, et al)

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
    132. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by sznupi · · Score: 1

      A lot of "feature phones" come already packaged with few nice j2me apps that are for all intents and purposed treated like 1st grade, native ones. Some of those phones have full multitasking, too...

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
    133. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by sznupi · · Score: 1

      The keypad-phone UI is almost wholly standardized now, with the differences between manufacturers being limited to the layout the menus, and what the cursor keys do when no menu is displayed

      Oh? I guess you're used to (US? Considering you've seen locking j2me access to the net) carriers who like to put some abominations of a UI on their basic handsets?

      There is certainly quite a bit differences between ways how even "feature phone" UIs are laid out. Plus it's such a large category... (something really basic vs. SE phones (they even have multitasking) vs. LG Cookie, for example)

      No need for WAP nowadays BTW, not with Opera Mini.

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
    134. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by sznupi · · Score: 1

      Product pages have a habit of being retroactively changed anyway...

      But still, quick search brought this PR release on top - "With 8 hours of talk time, and 24 hours of audio playback, iPhone's battery life is longer than any other 'Smartphone' and even longer than most MP3 players," - such kind of construct, "...than any other...", is a strong hint regarding whether or not Apple considered iPhone to be a smartphone from day 1.

      And I take it Android and WebOS, both officially called "smartphone OS" from the beginning, weren't one for a long time really? (before native execution SDK) Blackberry is very much like it, too...
      And some rare phones were basically built around j2me.

      It's primarily a marketing term, not technical one; get over it.

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
    135. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by sznupi · · Score: 1

      You know, some kinds of people without much money are actually also sort of likely to get new & expensive stuff (that's a good thing for them), without real need for it (and not helping their financial status at all)

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
    136. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by sznupi · · Score: 1

      Opera Mini, used primarily on so called "feature phones", is the #1 mobile web browser by website stats (despite many of its users certainly being quite cautious about number of visited pages / data transferred)

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
    137. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by sznupi · · Score: 1

      Oh, the Appstore takes care of marketing your app above all the rest? Sweet.

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
    138. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by sznupi · · Score: 1

      ...the interface specifically for that experience ... integrated apps ... It's also very possible that everyone is jumping the gun and that apps for android and rim are in the works...

      Even if that were the case, then surely j2me app should be first in line; vast majority of phones in the UK would run this one nicely (also many "smarthpones")

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
    139. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by sznupi · · Score: 1

      Nokia has 37% of all mobile phones sold; that 37% is a bit over 450 million IIRC. Only close 20% of what they sell is Symbian, around 80 million last year. That number was 45% of smartphones.

      That's it; S40 (or S30...) that's on their "feature phones" isn't Symbian. Where did you get "70%" from? Your phone is very much counted as a smartphone, if it's Symbian.

      Price isn't the determining factor (or at least shouldn't be) - capabilities matter; and anyway, "computer industry" was historically also about lowering prices...

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
    140. Re:Maybe something everybody can use? by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      Product pages, sure. Though you might be able to track down old ones on archive.org.

      But press releases don't get retroactively changed. Nor do videos of Steve Jobs doing the announcement. And despite me assuring you that he did not say the iPhone was a smartphone at the time of the announcement, you assured me that he did. "From day #1". That Apple "Apple redefined the term [smartphone] when it announced the iPhone"

      You now know you misremembered. I was right. He did no such thing. The best you can find is a press release from 6 months later, referring to competitors as smartphones. And including the word in quotation marks.

      The best thing would be for you to just admit your mistake before moving on.

      It's primarily a marketing term, not technical one; get over it.

      I don't need to "get over" anything. I worked as an engineer on a couple of the first smartphones on the market. That's why I know what the technical definition is. And that's why I paid special attention to what Apple were calling the iPhone at the time of release. And that's why I could be absolutely certain that your claim was wrong.

      Again, you also need to just accept that you made a mistake, and whilst you thought that smartphone was just a marketing term, it has a technical definition. And whilst random bloggers might sometimes make mistakes about which phones are smartphones and which are feature phones, and might assume it's just a marketing distinction, they are mistaken. The phone manufacturers themselves don't make that mistake, and you'll find that the products that they call "smartphone" always meet the technical definition I gave you. If they don't, they open themselves up to the charge of mis-selling.

  2. iphone by Frenger · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Ok, but maybe the taxpayer dollars should be spent on services that everyone can make use of, not just iPhone users.

    1. Re:iphone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      If the BBC was to create a Linux media center application, would you criticize them as well, seeing as taxpayer pounds (not dollars) were spent on services that not everyone could make use of, just Linux users?

    2. Re:iphone by Spad · · Score: 1

      a) The BBC doesn't receive taxpayer pounds
      b) If they *only* made a Linux media center application then yes, I would criticize them.

    3. Re:iphone by zwei2stein · · Score: 4, Funny

      Yes, but how else are brittish going to "donate" money to ipod developer nephew of director?

      He has to make living, you know ... what better way to provide him that giving him project that no-one will really use (and thus noone will complain about if it goes horribly wrong.).

      --
      -- Technology for the sake of technology is as pathetic as eschewing technology because it's technology.
    4. Re:iphone by williamhb · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Ok, but maybe the taxpayer dollars should be spent on services that everyone can make use of, not just iPhone users.

      It's more than just that. If the Government develops iPhone apps, but not apps for the other proprietary platforms, then that could be seen as a Government endorsement of Apple over their competitors. Why are taxpayers' pounds being spent endorsing and promoting a foreign company's products that few can afford? Of course it offends British sensibilities -- not only is it the poor subsidising the rich (all taxpayers pay, but only the wealthier who can afford iPhones benefit), and not only does it distort the market for smart-phones, but it also puts the companies that invest in the UK and EU at a disadvantage. (Many of the other mobile developers, such as Nokia and Google, invest and employ significantly in the UK)

    5. Re:iphone by richlv · · Score: 1

      anyone can use linux without paying anybody.
      are you willing to provide a free iphone to everybody who would express interest in running the app ?

      --
      Rich
    6. Re:iphone by SJ · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Are you all serious?

      How long did Mac users have to wait to get a version of BBC iPlayer that even remotely came close to working?

      BBC finally shows Apple some love after years of neglect, and they get pounded.

      This is EXACTLY what governments should be doing in hard times. Get the money flowing to places it hasn't gone before.

    7. Re:iphone by Jeff+DeMaagd · · Score: 0

      all taxpayers pay, but only the wealthier who can afford iPhones benefit)

      You make it sound like it's the Jaguar owner's club or something like that. I don't see what's so prohibitively expensive about them that puts them out of reach of the middle class.

      That said, most information you can put into a phone app can be done in a standard web site.

    8. Re:iphone by Xest · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Exactly, the InfoWorld blogger is an idiot if he doesn't get this.

      We can't justify spending thousands on something that not only an absolute minority can access, but likely only a minority of that minority will ever bother to use anyway.

      They'd even have had an argument if they'd done it for Symbian, by far the UK's biggest mobile platform, but even that would be a push. The fact they focussed on a minority, but popular device simply demonstrates they just wanted to play around with the latest gadgets rather than focus on actually doing their job. The web is far and away the most sensible option.

      But it's something that effects even pseudo-public sector- look at the BBC, their iPlayer app prioritised the iPhone well ahead of any platform, despite being completely against the BBCs requirement of providing equal access to content that license payers pay for.

      If it was private sector then that's fine, what they do is upto them, they may still be criticised but it's their choice at the end of the day. Public sector doesn't have that choice, you can't expect people to pay the same taxes and one of them get all the benefits and the other get nothing simply because of their choice of mobile phone particularly if the phone they chose is actually the same as the majority of the rest of the population are using. In public sector it has to be all or nothing- either support iPhone, Android, Symbian, Blackberry, MeeGo or don't do it at all and again, as people have said here a few times, the web is far and away the best platform to do it for all.

      I'm sure someone will point out some fringe platform and say "Well should they support that?", no, of course there are fringe cases and they can't be expected to necessarily support 100% of platforms, but they need to make sure they at least cover the majority of the population for this sort of thing- ideally a vast majority, such as around 95% or so.

      The only thing I will say is that public sector has had problems with websites too so it's not just a case of switching to the web until they sort out their issues there, one website they created (nothing overly complex, just a standard CMS albeit with lots of content) cost £105 million- how can that even be justified? Most private sector developers are saying they'd have quoted around £50,000 for the same site, maybe up into the hundreds of thousands if they had to employ staff to enter all the content and such, but £105 million? How can you even spend that much money building a website?

      So public sector in the UK has a major problem with IT, the iPhone apps are just one facet of it, but sensible web development seems to be the obvious solution in most cases.

    9. Re:iphone by AGMW · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Ok, but maybe the taxpayer dollars should be spent on services that everyone can make use of, not just iPhone users.

      Good point, so we should berate them for setting up all the Gov websites too, as not everyone has access to the internet, and obviously any new road building must be shelved until we can ensure everyone has a car!

      I'd say it's just the BBC looking for news on a slow news day. See also the sh1tstorm they whipped up about some Gov Dept screwing up a list of which schools were going to lose their rebuilding funds - some apparently were told they were safe and weren't so the BBC went and interviewed headmasters of said schools and the (usually Left Wing) headmasters were all very upset about it when the reporters asked them the important questions like "How do you feel"!

      And let's ask when these apps were all written? Was it since the election or perhaps before the election?

      Anyway, so perhaps the BBC headline should read something like "Government spends money on things and we've nothing more interesting to report on whilst all our reporters are in Cumbria again!".

      --
      Eclectic beats from Leeds, UK
      handmadehands.co.uk
    10. Re:iphone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      a) The BBC is funded from a tax on television ownership (the 'license fee')
      b) Do we actually need these apps?
      c) Its not just the BBC spending money on these things so they can look all modern and like they 'get it' (when they obviously don't)

    11. Re:iphone by Spad · · Score: 2, Informative

      BBC != British Government.

    12. Re:iphone by PatrickThomson · · Score: 1

      Get the money flowing to places it hasn't gone before.

      What, a giant US company that does all its manufacturing in china? I think that's how we got into this mess to begin with.

      --
      I am one of many. My idea is not unique, nor do I expect my voice alone to sway you. I speak in a chorus of opinion.
    13. Re:iphone by gdshaw · · Score: 2, Informative

      a) The BBC doesn't receive taxpayer pounds

      Incorrect: the BBC is primarily funded by a tax on the use of television sets.

      (Yes, you can avoid this tax by not owning a television, in much the same way as you can avoid income tax by not working or VAT by not shopping. It is not merely a subscription fee for watching BBC content, as it is payable regardless of which channels you watch. You can argue about whether this is a good thing or a bad thing, but to claim that they are not funded by taxes is wrong for any reasonable definition of the word 'tax'.)

    14. Re:iphone by alex67500 · · Score: 1

      British, UK, taxpayer dollars? Spot the odd one.

    15. Re:iphone by cabraverde · · Score: 1

      How long did Mac users have to wait to get a version of BBC iPlayer that even remotely came close to working?

      BBC finally shows Apple some love after years of neglect, and they get pounded.

      The iPlayer is a Flash app. Plenty of other computers & mobile devices can use the iPlayer without the BBC having to specifically "show them some love".

      Lack of Flash is Apple's choice and iPhone users are lucky that the BBC went out of its way to accommodate them. Not hard-done-by that it took until 2008.

      Finally, it's not the BBC being 'pounded' here: they were simply reporting on pointless iPhone app development by various government departments.

    16. Re:iphone by Custard+Horse · · Score: 1

      That's rather disingenuous bearing in mind it has been government policy for a while to encourage use of the internet. That and the obvious point that the percentage of population with access to the internet dwarves that with access to the iPhone.

      I can understand that developing for the iPhone might be easier as the app store is a great distribution mechanism but it would have been more reasonable to build a web site then develop an app for each platform and release them (or their links) on the website at the same time.

      As for the monetary waste, at only £40k, you should see the amount the government has spent on failed NHS I.T. projects. It is truly astounding how corrupt these people are that hundreds of millions can be paid to 'private contractors' with no discernible benefit.

    17. Re:iphone by rishistar · · Score: 1

      To clarify All the Iplayer content was still available streamed via Flash on the BBC IPlayer site. The thing that was missing was a client to download programs, which I used for a bit but then went back to using the website.

      --
      Professor Karmadillo Songs of Science
    18. Re:iphone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That said, most information you can put into a phone app can be done in a standard web site.

      Which one exactly cannot be ?

    19. Re:iphone by X10 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Next year, the BBC will air programs that you can only view on a Sony TV set.

      --
      no, I don't have a sig
    20. Re:iphone by imakemusic · · Score: 1

      It's a license fee. You can technically call it a tax but that will just confuse the discussion. The BBC does not receive taxpayer pounds (where "taxpayer pounds" means pounds paid in tax to the government).

      --
      Brain surgery - it's not rocket science!
    21. Re:iphone by Idiomatick · · Score: 1

      It isn't 50 grand or anything but that isn't how money works. It is expensive FOR A PHONE. Even the relatively poor can get their hands on 20 bucks but only the very wealthy can use said $20 to wipe their ass. Just because the poor could technically flush their money down the toilet doesn't mean it should be accepted or encouraged by the government.

    22. Re:iphone by prefect42 · · Score: 1

      That's where the UK and the US differ. We recognise the existence of tax payers who aren't middle class...

      --

      jh

    23. Re:iphone by mcvos · · Score: 1

      a) The BBC doesn't receive taxpayer pounds

      I wonder where you got that idea.

      b) If they *only* made a Linux media center application then yes, I would criticize them.

      Then you've got no reason to criticize the UK government here, because they also made an Android app. Maybe other platforms too, or maybe those will come in the future.

    24. Re:iphone by mcvos · · Score: 1

      anyone can use linux without paying anybody.

      Without a computer?

      are you willing to provide a free iphone to everybody who would express interest in running the app ?

      Or they can use Android. But they'll still need hardware to run it on.

    25. Re:iphone by cardpuncher · · Score: 1

      Whenever a new technology comes along some government functionary (often several at the same time) decide it will be a career-enhancing move to show how modern and cutting-edge they can be by splurging some of their departmental budget on it.

      This is justified either as "pump priming" to help create new businesses specialising in the new technology or, if that won't wash, as a necessary step along the road to the "digital economy". The main goal is usually to ensure that a photograph results of said functionary or his patron standing next to something shiny.

      The resulting project is either marketed as being ultimately self-sustaining (in other words the government is competing with the private businesses it is supposed to be assisting to develop a commercial service) or as a technology-proving ground (in other words the government is diverting private business from projects that might ultimately be self-sustaining to work on something that by definition is not).

      Fortunately, in this case, it doesn't seem to have seriously impacted anything very much (certainly not in the way that government spending has distorted the web industry) . Merely wasting money to no effect is actually quite a good outcome compared with typical government exercises of this nature

    26. Re:iphone by mcvos · · Score: 1

      If the Government develops iPhone apps, but not apps for the other proprietary platforms, then that could be seen as a Government endorsement of Apple over their competitors.

      It's cute you're getting all wound up about this, but there's also an Android version of that app.

      If your point is the accessibility of the apps, then maybe it's smarter to ask the government which other platforms they support, and demand that they port those apps to Symbian and MeeGo, instead of demanding that they stop all development completely.

    27. Re:iphone by mcvos · · Score: 1

      We can't justify spending thousands on something that not only an absolute minority can access, but likely only a minority of that minority will ever bother to use anyway.

      What the fuck? Governments regularly spend millions on various minorities. How can you possibly not justify spending mere thousands?

    28. Re:iphone by augustw · · Score: 1

      The reporters are not "in Cumbria again"; they're in Northumbria, on the other side of the country.

    29. Re:iphone by gdshaw · · Score: 1

      It's a license fee. You can technically call it a tax but that will just confuse the discussion.

      It's called a licence fee. It is a tax, in every way that matters. I don't see how this can possibly confuse the discussion unless your intent is equivocation ("Yes it would be wrong to do that with taxpayers' funds, but this is a licence fee: completely different, just like the subscription you pay to Sky or Virgin, none of your business what we spend it on etc. etc.")

    30. Re:iphone by imakemusic · · Score: 1

      I don't see how this can possibly confuse the discussion

      Because when people say "tax payer pounds" it implies pounds acquired by the government via income tax (or other means). The BBC does not receive these pounds. It receives "license payer pounds". They are acquired in a similar way but they come from a different source.

      --
      Brain surgery - it's not rocket science!
    31. Re:iphone by jareth-0205 · · Score: 1

      I don't see what's so prohibitively expensive about them that puts them out of reach of the middle class.

      I'm sorry, why is the middle class supposedly the lower-barrier for government services?? Government services should be available for *all*. Vast majority of people can afford a PC of some kind, and those that can't can use those at the local library.

      Not only is the iPhone prohibitively expensive for a large proportion of the population, it shouldn't be a requirement to use government services and shouldn't get preferential treatment with public money.

    32. Re:iphone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      OK, I'll bite.

      Please explain exactly how I can run Linux for free?
      Take my starting point of having no computer or computing device. So, how exactly do I run Linux for free? Are you going to provide free computers to everybody who would express an interest in running Linux?

    33. Re:iphone by Xest · · Score: 1

      Are you really unable to see the difference between largely pointless phone apps (their function can be performed in other ways already) and providing essential services for a healthy population?

    34. Re:iphone by jewelie · · Score: 1

      Next year, the BBC will air programs that you can only view on a Sony TV set.

      Aching for mod points to mod this person up. Right on the ball! This appears to be the problem within the BBC at the moment. :(

    35. Re:iphone by Jedi+Alec · · Score: 1

      What the fuck? Governments regularly spend millions on various minorities. How can you possibly not justify spending mere thousands?

      Matter of principle...case in point, imagine the shitstorm if a government proudly announced webservices that only work with IE...and that is a *majority* that can use it.

      --

      People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
    36. Re:iphone by Xest · · Score: 2, Interesting

      "The main goal is usually to ensure that a photograph results of said functionary or his patron standing next to something shiny."

      This made me smile. I worked in public sector for a few years and reading through this sentence gave me flashbacks of countless halls across the different sites I worked at lined with pictures of smug looking folk being presented trophies for the most obscure awards, which they were often self-nominated for, or in some cases nominated for by a brown nosing underling or a boss who stood a chance of also getting in on the photo op should they win.

      It made me realise how true that is, something I probably didn't take in at the time when seeing the walls of awards photos in these places.

      I remember when the department I worked for went for a "Best places in IT to work" award in some computer magazine, and we had to fill in an anonymous survey for the magazine. Well, needless to say being public sector our department was around 70% pointless and 25% incompetent, so I filled in the survey honestly as did the other 5% of people who actually carried the rest of the department. Our boss was heartbroken we didn't even make it past the first hurdle, and just couldn't comprehend why we hadn't at least been shortlisted.

      Still, at least I did my bit for humanity in preventing an incompetent waste of space from getting his shiny photo op, well, for a time at least. I think he got some government sponsored award in the end instead so that he could pretend he was running a good IT department and not one that was largely a waste of space and money. Something he'll no doubt use to get another even more overpaid job running an equally crap department elsewhere in public sector.

    37. Re:iphone by jewelie · · Score: 2, Informative

      Good point, so we should berate them for setting up all the Gov websites too, as not everyone has access to the internet,

      Which is exactly why libraries here provide access to computers and the internet. (And yes, they're normally well used!)

      and obviously any new road building must be shelved until we can ensure everyone has a car!

      Excluding motorways (for which I might agree with you) public highways are for bikes and pedestrians and buses and other transport, not just cars.

    38. Re:iphone by mcvos · · Score: 1

      If that's your issue, then criticize the quality of the apps, not the general fact that the government does something that's only useful to a minority.

    39. Re:iphone by jewelie · · Score: 1

      British, UK, taxpayer dollars? Spot the odd one.

      That made me giggle too. :) Joking aside, in my few international ebay auction, I've had US winners refuse to pay as they did not understand that a UK£1 is not the same thing as US$1, and yes, in US$ it was more expensive than they realised! (Even though I made it clear for them in the auction description.) Yeah yeah, I know its not a US thing - people in general everywhere are stupid. :)

    40. Re:iphone by adamofgreyskull · · Score: 1

      It confuses the discussion because while the licence fee is technically a tax for the purpose of collection, what the BBC (Trust) ultimately decides to do with the licence payers' money has very little to do with the government. The word "tax" has strong connotations and implies a much more direct government involvement in the output of the BBC than is the case.

      Ultimately, dragging the BBC into this discussion benefits no-one anyway, because there's no comparison. The BBC are in the business of public service broadcasting, entertainment, news etc., when they add support for the iPhone to iPlayer, it's somewhat expected, because it's an obvious extension of their service and is well within their remit. Many people will use it because the BBC has such a large amount of popular content. When the government builds an iPhone app for the sake of it, telling people how to change a tyre FFS, it's seen to be the waste of resources it is.

      It's incredibly disingenuous to liken the licence fee to income tax or VAT. Choosing not to watch live television transmissions is a hell of a lot easier than living off the grid or on benefits. I can't even imagine how difficult it would be to avoid paying any VAT.

    41. Re:iphone by jewelie · · Score: 1

      It's incredibly disingenuous to liken the licence fee to income tax or VAT. Choosing not to watch live television transmissions is a hell of a lot easier than living off the grid or on benefits.

      But chosing not to watch live television transmission is, I gather, surprisingly hard work, resulting in a LOT of hassle from the licensing authority, so I gather. :(

    42. Re:iphone by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Well in that sense the money I pay to my insurance company is a tax then.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    43. Re:iphone by Urkki · · Score: 1

      That said, most information you can put into a phone app can be done in a standard web site.

      Which one exactly cannot be ?

      Why, the awesomeness of iPhone, of course! /sarcasm

    44. Re:iphone by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      It's called a licence fee. It is a tax, in every way that matters.

      "In every way that matters" makes a subjective question out of an objective one.

      The TV Licence fee is not a tax. It's an optional sum of money that gives access to a specific shared good (the use of the TV radio spectrum - receiving only). It's a license fee in every rational sense of the phrase. You can't opt out of Income tax or VAT and give up the specific goods they give access to. And no, not having income or not buying anything is not opting out of those taxes - you are still subject to those taxes, you just haven't gone past zero on the scale of payments.

    45. Re:iphone by spiralx · · Score: 1

      Nope, less than a couple of minutes on the phone last time I did it. I did get a letter a while later saying they were going to send someone round to check, but never did (or I was out).

    46. Re:iphone by gdshaw · · Score: 1

      Because when people say "tax payer pounds" it implies pounds acquired by the government via income tax (or other means).

      Sigh. The only significant differences are that the BBC is responsible for administering its collection, and that (unusually for the UK) it is a hypothecated tax. Neither of these distinctions is relevant to the current discussion. It is set by the government, and paid into the consolidated fund — just like income tax. It has been officially classified as a tax by the UK Office for National Statistics.

      Why so anxious to avoid any mention of the 'T' word? Granted there's nothing wrong with calling it the 'licence fee' — that is its name and it is a licence — but why go criticising others for calling it a tax when it evidently is one?

    47. Re:iphone by calyphus · · Score: 1

      The BBC did the report. The uproar doesn't have to do with the BBC making app, you bunch of blithering, easily distracted from the facts, gits. RTFA

      --


      The potato it is uninformed.
    48. Re:iphone by loox · · Score: 1

      Ok, but maybe the taxpayer dollars should be spent on services that everyone can make use of, not just iPhone users.

      Correct. Time has eventually come then to purge Microsoft-only technologies out of governments.

    49. Re:iphone by imakemusic · · Score: 1

      but why go criticising others for calling it a tax when it evidently is one?

      Because, as I said before, it confuses the discussion, as happened above.

      Spad said "The BBC doesn't receive taxpayer pounds". His point being that they don't receive government-acquired funds. This is true.

      You responded with "Incorrect: the BBC is primarily funded by a tax on the use of television sets." Yes, if you want to be pedantic (and this is Slashdot so I guess I should expect nothing less) then you can refer to it as a tax but then we lose the distinction between license fees and government taxes which results in pointless arguments over semantics like this one and confusion (especially amongst non-brits) over whether the BBC is a government-funded entity which receives [government] tax. A lot of people seem to think that it is when it isn't.

      --
      Brain surgery - it's not rocket science!
    50. Re:iphone by theridersofrohan · · Score: 1

      But it's something that effects even pseudo-public sector- look at the BBC, their iPlayer app prioritised the iPhone well ahead of any platform, despite being completely against the BBCs requirement of providing equal access to content that license payers pay for.

      (emphasis mine). Hello Mr Murdoch! Let me correct you: There is *no* BBC iPlayer app, you just go to the BBC iPlayer website, click on the program you want to watch, which launches quicktime / the movie player on the iphone. No iphone specific app. In fact, a lot of the bbc website (including news), does not fully work on the iphone as it's using flash.

      But thanks for trying ;-)

    51. Re:iphone by Xest · · Score: 1

      No, I don't believe they've released it yet, but it's their primary focus of development. See here:

      http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8519783.stm

      They have released some of their other iPhone only apps though I believe.

    52. Re:iphone by teh+kurisu · · Score: 1

      You and the commenter you're replying to are talking about two completely different things.

      The first incarnation of the iPlayer was a Windows-only app that downloaded content onto your computer for viewing. While developing the Windows app first was the obvious decision due to market share, Mac OS X users were concerned that they might be left out in the cold.

      The iPlayer started using Flash on the website, and Mac (and Linux) users were able to stream content, but not download it. The ability to download content allowed Windows users with slower connections to use the iPlayer, which Mac users were unable to do. I also believe that, at the time, the video quality of the Flash streams was lower than the downloads.

      At this point, Mac users were starting to become concerned that this was the final word on Mac compatibility, and that they would be left as second-class citizens. What happened, of course, is that the BBC released an Adobe Air version that they rolled out to all users, which is perfectly capable.

      The iPhone has had a web-based version of the iPlayer for a while now that seems to please most people. I know it's fashionable to complain about the lack of Flash on the iPhone and iPad, but it's becoming a bit tiring when it has nothing to do with anything else.

    53. Re:iphone by gdshaw · · Score: 1

      It confuses the discussion because while the licence fee is technically a tax for the purpose of collection, what the BBC (Trust) ultimately decides to do with the licence payers' money has very little to do with the government. The word "tax" has strong connotations and implies a much more direct government involvement in the output of the BBC than is the case.

      I must remember that that next time we talk about the Microsoft "Windows Tax" :-)

      Seriously though, I can see where you are coming from, but I think you are placing too much emphasis on the relationship between the BBC and government, and too little on the circumstances under which the licence fee becomes payable.

      You can make a strong argument (provided that you vaguely believe in capitalism) that when you choose to spend your money on groceries at (say) Tesco, what they do with the proceeds is mostly none of your business. The same goes for subscriptions to a commercial TV service such as Sky or Virgin. People tend to take more interest in state-enforced monopolies such as water, and a great deal of interest in how the proceeds of income tax and VAT are spent.

      Where does the BBC fit on this spectrum? If the licence fee were payable only for BBC content then economically it would be more closely analogous to a subscription fee than a tax: if you want the service then you pay for it, otherwise you don't. There would be little need for public oversight because wasteful spending would attend to itself: less money spent on good content, therefore lower subscription revenues.

      With the current model you pay for the right to operate a television set. It is true that you consequently gain access to BBC content, but that isn't actually what you are paying for when you pay the fee. Therefore, the BBC has no direct commercial incentive to avoid waste and produce good output.

      Of course the BBC wouldn't last long if they paid no regard to their audience: the government would quickly be forced to reduce or abolish the licence fee in order to satisfy public opinion. However the feedback mechanism here is through the ballot box, not the hidden hand of the market. That's one very good reason why the licence fee is properly described as a tax, and why the distinction matters to this discussion.

      In terms of difficulty of avoidance the licence fee is somewhere in the middle of the range: easier than income tax or VAT, true, but more difficult than Stamp Duty Reserve Tax, and much more difficult than the tax on playing cards we once had. This isn't really relevant though: just because you can avoid an activity doesn't prevent a tax on that activity being a tax.

      As I said before I take no position on whether the current method of funding is a good thing or a bad thing. However in terms of accountability for spending I would consider it to be public money, and would be making comparisons with government rather than commercial TV services.

    54. Re:iphone by gdshaw · · Score: 1

      Spad said "The BBC doesn't receive taxpayer pounds". His point being that they don't receive government-acquired funds. This is true.

      That's a very fine distinction, and beside the point. It doesn't matter whether the BBC is part of the government or entirely independent from it: if it raises money though what amounts to taxation then it ought to be held accountable for how that money is spent, in much the same way as central government is accountable for income tax and VAT.

    55. Re:iphone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Where can I get free hardware to run linux on?

    56. Re:iphone by sznupi · · Score: 1

      Though didn't the BCC also have (perhaps still has) a strong role in regards to maintaining radio spectrum and underlying technology? So it's not quite as clear as "paying them for TV even if not using their services."

      (and hey, somehow they produce better output than most broadcasters around the world...)

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
    57. Re:iphone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They should just do like Quebec:

      Any apps published in one forum must also be equally published in another forum. Only without the French translation part.

    58. Re:iphone by sznupi · · Score: 1

      Many people being able to afford it (nvm how such decisions would influence their lifestyles at large) doesn't change that it's expensive.

      Personal anecdote time - I certainly don't have what many people here would call "great" income...but OTOH I'm quite frugal, also I don't have to nearly exhaust myself in the process, and I still have comfortable savings; life is fine (what crisis?). But all of this depends on certain outlook about what actually matters, and how much things are actually worth (or when they become acceptable bang for the buck); among other things.

      And you know, one of the apps was for a job centre; for people typically living on the dole, to help them find a job... (usually lower paying one, from such place). From what I see, reckless spending on "shiny" is one of the major faults to which such people succumb (BTW, I've heard iPhones have actually become quite popular also among low-income people in the US; have become another kind of jewelry basically? How, possibly, getting into even greater debt is working for them?)

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
    59. Re:iphone by sznupi · · Score: 1

      With Android added it barely makes a difference. Start with a webpage; if that's not enough (unlikely), then perhaps j2me app - once you have vast majority of the market covered with this one, you can think about niche devices.

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
    60. Re:iphone by AGMW · · Score: 1
      Cumbria, Northumbria - let's call the whole thing off!

      Honestly, I've simply not been paying attention to the story 'cos it's just not that interesting, but as the news companies have nothing else to play with at the moment it's taking all the headlines, just like the Cumbria one!

      --
      Eclectic beats from Leeds, UK
      handmadehands.co.uk
    61. Re:iphone by AGMW · · Score: 1

      As for the monetary waste, at only £40k, you should see the amount the government has spent on failed NHS I.T. projects. It is truly astounding how corrupt these people are that hundreds of millions can be paid to 'private contractors' with no discernible benefit.

      Indeed. £40K is chump change and really not worth getting too excited about!

      It does seem a shame that these apps are only for the iPhone because there are dev env's out there that allow the code to be compiled up for iPhone and others (Symbian, etc) which would seem to be a much better idea, but maybe it already is and the reporters are just concentrating on the waste of money and hating Apple!

      --
      Eclectic beats from Leeds, UK
      handmadehands.co.uk
    62. Re:iphone by AGMW · · Score: 1

      Actually, I wasn't seriously suggesting they stop with the tinternet malarky, or indeed stop building roads! I was using sarcasm to try and make a point, but thanks for playing.

      --
      Eclectic beats from Leeds, UK
      handmadehands.co.uk
    63. Re:iphone by sznupi · · Score: 1

      What are you talking about? Apple specifically shut doen recently the possibility of cross-platform dev envs (which were only starting to appear anyway; with Symbian and, most importantly, j2me excluded...)

      Also, BBC itself shows iPhone some love (also iPhone, hence it's not a big deal here) so I'm not sure how they are concentrating on hating Apple. And yeah, let's just ignore all those chump changes...

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
  3. no by Threni · · Score: 5, Insightful

    it's bad to waste money doing iphone apps when you could save money and do a website which people other then iphone users can use. Why no do android apps too? What about blackberry, symbian etc? max? linux? pc? Yes, it's a waste of money because most people haven't got an iphone, android phome, mac etc etc. Some people have a pc, and they probably have an internet connection, so a website will do. It's the BBC - they make/show tv shows.

    1. Re:no by kainosnous · · Score: 1

      I like the website idea. However, I would recommend that they develop an API which would allow for other developers, whether they be web developers or phone app developers, to create their own way of accessing the data. At least this would be nice for something like the unemployment services. As for how to change a tire, I'm not sure how to help those people. I'm pretty sure that a phone app is not the answer, though.

      --
      There are 10 commandments: 01)Thou shalt love the Lord Thy God 10)Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.Matt22:34-40
    2. Re:no by Burnhard · · Score: 1

      Our Government are also cutting back on websites too. They spend £100,000,000 on them, including this little gem . If you want a good example of a culture of profligacy with public money, which has resulted in the largest deficit in the EU (and one of the largest in the world) then I think this is it!

    3. Re:no by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      which has resulted in the largest deficit in the EU

      It's true that the UK has a larger debt (in raw terms) than Greece, for example. But then it does have a somewhat higher population and a much higher GDP (caused presumably by spending more time working and less rioting and setting fire to things).

      If you bother to look here and sort by column 6 you'll see that UK's proportional debt is lower than the EU average.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    4. Re:no by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      Whilst I think that is a ridiculous site, one shouldn't fall into the trap of believing it is OUR taxpayer money paying for it. It's created by the Agriculture and Horticulture Development Board, and their funding does not come out of general taxation, but out of industry levies on producers, growers and processors. Companies in the industry pay levies with the specific purpose of promoting their industry.

      So no, it's not the good example you think it is. Look for something funded out of general taxation for an example.

    5. Re:no by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That website is run by an industry body that is funded by the industry members (more like a union) - it is not a publicly funded endeavor.

      But sorry, don't let me spoil a good bitching session.... carry on.

    6. Re:no by jvkjvk · · Score: 1

      one shouldn't fall into the trap of believing it is OUR taxpayer money paying for it.

      How do you suppose those companies manage to pay for the levies the government has put upon them?

      The fact is that people just pay for this indirectly instead of directly.

      Yes, technically you are correct "our taxpayer money" is not paying for it. However it is absurd to believe that we are not paying for it in the end.

      Also, the more money that is collected from business to fund such ridiculous sites, the less that is available to do the actual work the levies were collected for.

      So, not only do we end up paying higher prices in the stores, we get less actual benefit for it as the monies are wasted on shiny useless toys instead of providing the real benefits the levies are supposed to provide.

      Regards.

    7. Re:no by Threni · · Score: 1

      > How do you suppose those companies manage to pay for the levies the government has put upon them?
      > The fact is that people just pay for this indirectly instead of directly.
      > Yes, technically you are correct "our taxpayer money" is not paying for it. However it is absurd to believe that we are not paying for it in the end.

      By that argument, the government runs Tesco!

    8. Re:no by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      How do you suppose those companies manage to pay for the levies the government has put upon them?

      The implication here is that the producers price at the total cost to them plus some percentage, rather than what the market will bear. It may be true in this ase, or it may not be. But you can't just go assuming that costs that companies bear are passed straight on to consumers. It ain't necessarily so.

      Even if it was, it's STILL not taxpayers paying, it's consumers.

      Strangely enough you don't hear the small government brigade whining on about the thickness of the pile in the board room, or the CEOs bonuses, both of which, by the same theory, we are all paying for AS THOUGH IT WAS TAX.

    9. Re:no by Burnhard · · Score: 1

      Agreed - I found that website linking through from a newspaper article about shutting down government websites, so I've propagated the mistake. But anyway, the statutory levy is a tax (this time on producers) and if I were the government, creating as it does statutory regulations, I would seriously consider reducing as these clowns clearly have too much cash and time on their hands!

    10. Re:no by Burnhard · · Score: 1

      Ah, I was going from EU deficit (not debt) projections, where it projected the UK deficit for 2010 to be greater than that of Greece, given the austerity measures taken in Greece (and the measures due not to be taken by our previous Government). I'm not sure what the situation is now as the EU projection was made in May, before the election. I expect it's lower as the Governments figures for 2009 came in lower and the new government is making savings this year.

  4. Typical cuts behaviour... by advocate_one · · Score: 1

    with massive cuts on the way, each ministry is frantically pointing out where cuts can be made in other ministries... and it doesn't help that beancounters can only see direct savings by cutting things... savings through efficiency are harder to measure... even worse, they find it hard to contemplate spending money somewhere to actually save because people are able to take advantage of the apps and not have to waste time making a face-to-face appointment which requires having people employed to handle

    --
    Donald 'Duck' Dunn: We had a band powerful enough to turn goat piss into gasoline.
    1. Re:Typical cuts behaviour... by tehcyder · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      The BBc is not a government ministry, dipshit.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    2. Re:Typical cuts behaviour... by advocate_one · · Score: 1

      The BBC are merely reporting that Ministries are apparently wasting money creating iPhone apps... twat... next time RTFM...

      --
      Donald 'Duck' Dunn: We had a band powerful enough to turn goat piss into gasoline.
    3. Re:Typical cuts behaviour... by Don_dumb · · Score: 1

      The BBc is not a government ministry, dipshit.

      RTFA or even the Summary - This story is not about the BBC but government ministries.

      Still feel superior now?

      --
      If this were really happening, what would you think?
  5. hmmmmmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Isn't it more that some people have suggested that making applications for unemployed people, that only run on phones costing 40 pounds (70$) a month is a bit poorly targeted. And that perhaps making websites for renewing car tax etc is more efficient than making apps that only run on a tiny minority of people's phones (any phone that can run an app can use the website.)

    Why on earth does the government need to spend loads of money making things slightly more convenient for a tiny minority of nerds and rich tech hipsters, when these people are perfectly able to use the existing websites.

    Sent from my phone, obviously!

    1. Re:hmmmmmm by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      It's stimulus, obviously. Since any money spent by the government on any project creates jobs and increases demand (people who work also spend) and improves the economy, it is obviously for the greater good. When will brits realize that? [/sarcasm]

      --
      Qxe4
    2. Re:hmmmmmm by TheKidWho · · Score: 1

      By putting those developers to work you create something of value which would not have exist before.. The problem with government is that they are usually terrible at predicting the markets which makes them inefficient compared to a free market.

    3. Re:hmmmmmm by clickclickdrone · · Score: 1

      >applications for unemployed people, that only run on phones costing 40 pounds (70$) a month is a bit poorly targeted. Look down any UK High Street and you'll see swarms of 'unemployed' people with their pet dogs (the sort that are always in the press for killing kids) and iPhones. Usually a clutch of the latest Xbox games they've just aquiried to play on their big flat screen TVs too.
      I know some people genuinely struggle on benefits but a great many do very nicely although I don't expect they're exactly in the market for a job either.

      --
      I want a list of atrocities done in your name - Recoil
    4. Re:hmmmmmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Have you been reading the Daily Hate Mail again?!

    5. Re:hmmmmmm by clickclickdrone · · Score: 1

      No, just walking about my high street and sundry other towns.

      --
      I want a list of atrocities done in your name - Recoil
    6. Re:hmmmmmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, the "free market" is great at predicting the market, that's why they put all their money into shitty mortgage-backed bonds during a housing bubble.

    7. Re:hmmmmmm by TheKidWho · · Score: 1

      Blame the government for creating a false sense of security.

    8. Re:hmmmmmm by sznupi · · Score: 1

      One thing: SUV push & popularity.

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
  6. Wasteful by epp_b · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I would argue that this is wasteful on the basis that the vast majority of iPhone apps are made redundant by a web browser, for which forms and other online software can be written more quickly and efficiently, and also be available to a far greater user base.

    1. Re:Wasteful by IBBoard · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Maybe the web can replace a lot of apps, but it can't have completely pointless flashy bling widgets quite as easily as an iPhone. It also isn't quite as "teh coolz" to say "I wrote a web app" as "I designed an iPhone app - now there's an app for that!".

      Obviously the UK government just want to be "down wid it" (whatever "it" it is that they're supposed to be "down wid") and waste our money on tailored apps for one specific proprietary (and expensive) platform rather than design something accessible to all from a huge range of devices.

    2. Re:Wasteful by Psaakyrn · · Score: 1

      "Maybe the web can replace a lot of apps, but it can't have completely pointless flashy bling widgets quite as easily as an iPhone."

      Nothing is more "completely pointless flashy bling" than Flash.

    3. Re:Wasteful by justleavealonemmmkay · · Score: 1

      Exactly. If it doesn't use the camera, the GPS, the accelerometer or any other input peripheral, it's not an app.

    4. Re:Wasteful by IBBoard · · Score: 1

      True, especially the way it is normally used, but that won't run on the iPhone ;)

    5. Re:Wasteful by julesh · · Score: 1

      waste our money on tailored apps for one specific proprietary (and expensive) platform

      Proprietary, expensive, and not even with the (poor) justification of it being the most common. iPhone's market penetration in the UK is very low compared to other phone OSs. Both Symbian and Blackberry have much higher sales, and as both of those have been around for longer they probably have an even larger user base. (How long do you use a phone for? 2 years ago, iPhone's sales in the UK were less than 1% of all smartphones.)

    6. Re:Wasteful by sznupi · · Score: 1

      Funny thing is, at least Web Runtime / WRT on Symbian devices (yup, using web-like development tech for local stuff) actually has access to large part of those... ;)

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
  7. More precisely by DMiax · · Score: 1

    Apps that provide services to a small minority of British citizens. Or... is Starbucks very common in the UK?

  8. £10000 for a flashing light? by bool2 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "...and was shocked that people would believe it to be unseemly and even objectionable that a government was using modern technology to help its citizens in noble tasks like avoiding becoming roadkill when their motorocycles break down or keep track of potential jobs without being stuck at home all day -- the very things you'd want government to do with your tax dollars" I can't imagine why anyone would object to spending £10000 on an app to make a flashing light. And I have to wonder how many unemployed people who own an expensive iPhone will be using government jobs websites... Lets face facts here. The iPhone is a heavily locked down platform run by control freaks in California and owned by a very small percentage of the population. Tell me again why should my tax go towards supporting that platform?

  9. Supporting citizens vs supporting a platform by Dinjay · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Here is the BBC story if anyone is interested: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/10514367.stm

    Governments using modern technology to support/educate users should be encouraged - it will assist the UK IT industry employment, grow UK IT capabilities and give citizens the information they need when they need it. But at the same time, a government should be careful not strongly benefit one closed source platform over other platforms. Of course this doesn't mean that the UK government should build applications in all mobile platforms - just that they should build at lease some software application on another platform - preferably an open source one.

    --
    You break all the laws of physics and you seriously think there wouldn't be a price?
    1. Re:Supporting citizens vs supporting a platform by johndoejersey · · Score: 1

      The jobcentre plus app was also released for android

    2. Re:Supporting citizens vs supporting a platform by dave420 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Fuck whether the platform is closed or not - the biggest problem is that public money should be spent on public benefit. Not everyone has an iPhone, so an iPhone-only app is stupid. At least make it a normal website, which anyone with a browser can access.

    3. Re:Supporting citizens vs supporting a platform by Richard_at_work · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Not everyone has high definition TV, and yet the BBC do broadcast in HD on some channels - should my lack of HD capability prevent others from benefiting? No.

    4. Re:Supporting citizens vs supporting a platform by imakemusic · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That is funded by the BBC Television License Fee, not by taxes.

      --
      Brain surgery - it's not rocket science!
    5. Re:Supporting citizens vs supporting a platform by mcvos · · Score: 1

      But what if a website doesn't give the user the power than a native app would? If it can be done cheaply (and this does sound extremely cheap for a government project), then I'm all for native apps for the various mobile platforms.

    6. Re:Supporting citizens vs supporting a platform by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The BBC License Fees are taxes. If you don't pay them you will be charged criminally, and you still have to pay them even if you don't watch BBC channels.

    7. Re:Supporting citizens vs supporting a platform by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      HD is a cross-company standard. The iPhone is owned by a single company. Big difference.

    8. Re:Supporting citizens vs supporting a platform by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is funded by the BBC Television License Fee, not by taxes.

      Who owns the BBC? The govt.

      If you don't pay the so-called "fee", what happens?

      The govt will fine you, make you pay, and ultimately seize your property and/or throw you in jail.

      It's a tax (albeit an earmarked one), stop pretending otherwise.

    9. Re:Supporting citizens vs supporting a platform by Richard_at_work · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The difference is?

    10. Re:Supporting citizens vs supporting a platform by LurkerXXX · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If you don't have a TV, you don't pay the TV tax.

      If you don't have an iPhone, you've still had to pay to make an app for it.

    11. Re:Supporting citizens vs supporting a platform by imakemusic · · Score: 1

      Who owns the BBC? The govt.

      Wrong.

      --
      Brain surgery - it's not rocket science!
    12. Re:Supporting citizens vs supporting a platform by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fuck whether the platform is closed or not - the biggest problem is that public money should be spent on public benefit. Not everyone has an iPhone, so an iPhone-only app is stupid. At least make it a normal website, which anyone with a browser can access.

      Not everyone has a car, so spending tax funds on cars is stupid?

      I'm more interested in "is it cost effective?". And they don't all have to be individually cost effective, as nobody has a 100% success record.

    13. Re:Supporting citizens vs supporting a platform by imakemusic · · Score: 1

      One is a TV service provided by a TV broadcasting company that is looking to improve its services by using funds provided specifically for improving (or at least maintaining) its service by people that use the service. Some people (me included for a long time) do not use their services and do not pay for them.

      The other is a mandatory payment to government by all members of the public ostensibly for the maintenance and improvement of public services and society as a whole.

      Yes you can argue that they are both "taxes" but that really is not the point. Even if you do argue that, your point is still invalid. A better analogy would be if the BBC were only broadcasting HD TV...which they're not.

      --
      Brain surgery - it's not rocket science!
    14. Re:Supporting citizens vs supporting a platform by Boltronics · · Score: 1

      I don't have a car - I use public transportation and ride my bike. Yet - there are roads built in my area - with tax payer money - that disallow bicycles and have no buses. In general I feel far more attention is paid to support car owners than our own public transportation systems. Why? Not everyone can drive, but everyone can use trams, trains and buses.

      I'm sure all the politicians have no problem buying cars and ipods however.

      --
      It's GNU/Linux dammit!
    15. Re:Supporting citizens vs supporting a platform by adamofgreyskull · · Score: 1

      Are you serious?

    16. Re:Supporting citizens vs supporting a platform by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not everyone has an iPhone, so an iPhone-only app is stupid.

      Not everyone has mental health problems so mental health reform is stupid.
      Not everyone is on welfare so welfare reform is stupid.
      Not everyone has children (and thus, have a need for public schools) therefore reform of the school system is stupid.

      Or, more accurate to the point:

      Not everyone has a smartphone so making phone-friendly websites is stupid.
      Not everyone has the internet so making websites at all is stupid.

      I posit that your argument isn't worth the +5 Insightful it has now.

    17. Re:Supporting citizens vs supporting a platform by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would object to HD broadcasts, if you needed a specific brand of TV to watch them.

    18. Re:Supporting citizens vs supporting a platform by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Indeed a jobseekers app fro the iPhone ?!? how many people having problems finding work have an iPhone, why would you want to encourage them to blow out that kind of money that they don't have to try and help them find a job!

    19. Re:Supporting citizens vs supporting a platform by Mr+Reaney · · Score: 1, Informative

      The license fee (which I support) funds all of BBC content that is not funded by the arms of the BBC which make profit (BBC worldwide, for example). The basis is generally, around the British Isles, you can obtain BBC broadcast & interactive services free of charge at the point of use. British subjects (which includes IOM & CI residents) pay a license fee in order to be permitted to use equipment that is capable of receiving television broadcasts. This is compulsory, whether or not they use that equipment to receive or view BBC content, or indeed any broadcast content. No difference if they receive the signal through terrestrial broadcast, satellite broadcast or cable, and even if you pay a subscription to the provider of the broadcast, you still pay a license fee. There is no veriation between analogue, standard digital or HD services, but I think you can get a discounted license if your TV is monochrome (black & white for those of us who had one once!) The fee is charged for use of TV kit, but funds TV, radio, web/interactive, Ceefax and many public services run by the BBC. It is perfectly legitimate to complain about spending on iPhone apps rather than web apps - as legitimate to complain about 6Music and the Asian network (DAB-only BBC radio stations) However, that's what the BBC trust is about... I think the phrase might be "there are other closed-access mobile application stores available" Now, if the rest of the world can understand the issues at stake when many license fee payers seem unaware, fine. I suspect though, that TFA's author doesn't understand them as I see them. for what it's worth, I love the BBC, despite 90% being a bit crap. I support the license fee, but would like it to be lower. I'd like 6Music on FM, I won't get DAB for my car! BBC1 is a bit crap, and regional BBC radio/TV for my area is rubbish and NEVER GET THE WEATHER RIGHT! but to abolish or curtail the BBC would be a disaster for the whole world. The freedom from advertising alone is worth £120/year and I would never listen to commercial radio, even if they abolished the BBC. A few hundred grand on iphone app development does not overly bother me.

    20. Re:Supporting citizens vs supporting a platform by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No it's not. RTFA. In fact, read the BBC article instead. It's more informative than the inaccurate article that was submitted.
      http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/10514367.stm

    21. Re:Supporting citizens vs supporting a platform by TheRaven64 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Not everyone has the internet so making websites at all is stupid.

      Anyone can walk into a library and can access the Internet for free in the UK, including homeless people. In contrast, the iPhone is a tiny, proprietary platform. There are two important differences.

      The first is ubiquity. Anyone who wants access to the Internet can get it for free via a library, or relatively cheaply at home. The government's own assessments of the cost of living for defining the poverty line now regard Internet access as an essential utility for adults (they have for families with children for a few years) and factor this cost into their computed cost of living.

      The second is market distortion. Any make of computer can access the Internet. Any make of web browser can view a web site. Any ISP can access a web site. In contrast, only a phone from Apple can run an iPhone app. The availability of apps for a specific platform makes that platform more attractive, and if the government makes the app then it is implicitly providing market assistance to a specific (foreign) company. Even if they make an app for all existing SmartPhones, this makes life harder for new entrants into the market (and we've seen three of them in the last couple of years, so it's not a stretch to imagine more).

      The last point is the more important one. This was the same objection that we had to the original iPlayer. It used Microsoft DRM, giving a huge boost to Microsoft's products in the UK. If they had retained this system, then the only mobile devices capable of watching taxpayer-funded programs would have been those running Microsoft software (now they use Flash, which is still far from ideal, but better than it was).

      It is the government's job to provide services for its citizens, it is not the government's job to promote one company's products over its competitors'.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    22. Re:Supporting citizens vs supporting a platform by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fuck whether the platform is closed or not - the biggest problem is that public money should be spent on public benefit. Not everyone has an iPhone, so an iPhone-only app is stupid. At least make it a normal website, which anyone with a browser can access.

      I don't have access to a browser, you insensitive clod!

    23. Re:Supporting citizens vs supporting a platform by jpate · · Score: 2, Insightful

      paragraph breaks, man, paragraph breaks. Just stick in a /> (or better yet, <br /><br />) when you start a new sub-topic, and your wall of text will suddenly become readable.

    24. Re:Supporting citizens vs supporting a platform by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      The last point is the more important one. This was the same objection that we had to the original iPlayer. It used Microsoft DRM, giving a huge boost to Microsoft's products in the UK.

      IIRC there were also some government websites that only worked on Inthenuts Exploder, and not Firepox or Nadscrape Nevergetthere.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    25. Re:Supporting citizens vs supporting a platform by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      British subjects (which includes IOM & CI residents) pay a license fee in order to be permitted to use equipment that is capable of receiving television broadcasts. This is compulsory, whether or not they use that equipment to receive or view BBC content, or indeed any broadcast content.

      You're slightly wrong.

      According to TV Licensing, "You need a TV Licence to use any television receiving equipment such as a TV set, digital box, DVD or video recorder, PC, laptop or mobile phone to watch or record television programmes as they're being shown on TV".

      You need a TV Licence if you are using your TV receiving equipment to watch or record TV as time of broadcasting. If you aren't, no need.

      It's been a decade since I bothered with anything from the BBC at all, and on the rare occasions that I get bored enough in hotel rooms to turn on the TV, I soon switch it off. The freedom from advertising alone is worth a great deal more than £120/year. Just because they don't have the traditional commercial break doesn't mean the BBC don't advertise...

      -- Posted anonymously to avoid undoing moderations.

    26. Re:Supporting citizens vs supporting a platform by @madeus · · Score: 1

      It's publicly owned and managed by the government. They are chartered by the government and exist as they do now solely at their grace - the same government department (Culture, Media and Sport) is also in charge of setting the licence fee.

      The government charter dictates what the BBC may and may not do by setting out their remit, dictates how the BBC is governed (which they did recently, ditching the Board of Governors and dictating they set up a new BBC Trust instead.

      The current charter was created in 2006 and runs until 2016, and - as in the past - the BBC requires a new charter to exist beyond then (at least in it's current form).

    27. Re:Supporting citizens vs supporting a platform by imakemusic · · Score: 1

      Right.

      --
      Brain surgery - it's not rocket science!
    28. Re:Supporting citizens vs supporting a platform by Tom · · Score: 0, Troll

      Not everyone has an iPhone, so an iPhone-only app is stupid.

      Errr, what?

      Who modded this up? Please go and give your license back. Any license. Actually, all of them.

      So, things that is only useful to a minority of people should not be done by the government, yes? Which means they should stop spending any money that helps the blind or disabled. Or the unemployed. Heck, I'm neither blind nor unemployed, so what the fuck is the government doing spending my money on this shit?

      Oh yes, I am picking extreme examples, but the point remains. Very few government actions are really intended for everyone, or even the majority.

      If this were about dumping the existing options and leaving only an iPhone app as your way to, say, get unemployment benefits, then yes by all means the outcry would be justified.

      But it isn't.

      So all the bullshit jealousy whining is just that.

      The rational look should be exactly what the government did: Check what the costs are, check what the benefits to how many people would be, then decide whether the costs are worth the benefit. If it costs £1000 to do something, and 100 people will each have a benefit of £50, then the government just saved its citizen £4000. As long as it is not always the same group of people that benefit, that's perfectly good.

      Because, you know, otherwise they could never get anything done, especially not with new technologies.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    29. Re:Supporting citizens vs supporting a platform by mdwh2 · · Score: 1

      That's a technical limitation - obviously you need a HD TV, to receive HD television. Is there a technical reason why these apps can only work on an Iphone?

      I mean yes, even if they supported all phones, you could say "But someone without a phone can't use it", but now you're conflating the problem with a technical problem.

      I can buy a HD TV from a company I choose. Can any phone I choose to buy work with these Government apps, even though they'd be technically capable of supporting those required features? No.

      Any company can make a TV that conforms to the HD spec. Can anyone make a phone that runs these apps?

    30. Re:Supporting citizens vs supporting a platform by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Taxes are compulsory and when you don't pay them you go to jail.
      The Television License Fee is your free choice, you can also have no TV if you want - and then you don't need to pay the fee.

    31. Re:Supporting citizens vs supporting a platform by Rising+Ape · · Score: 1

      A vast quantity of revenue is raised by the taxes on vehicles and petrol, far more than necessary to cover the roads budget. By contrast, public transport requires considerable subsidy.

    32. Re:Supporting citizens vs supporting a platform by Caetel · · Score: 1

      You can still have an SD TV, or only have a SD signal, like the majority of the UK population do - you're still paying for broadcasts you can't (with your current setup) receive.

    33. Re:Supporting citizens vs supporting a platform by Dark$ide · · Score: 1

      That is funded by the BBC Television License Fee, not by taxes.

      And how does that differ to a simple property tax?

      I don't want the BBC to waste my £142.50 on stuff for fancy technology that the majority of their user base doesn't have, doesn't want and can't afford.

      I want my BBC to spend the money I pay them on producing decent television and radio programmes.

      --

      Sigs. We don't need no steenking sigs.

    34. Re:Supporting citizens vs supporting a platform by Dark$ide · · Score: 1

      If you don't pay the so-called "fee", what happens?

      They threaten you with a visit to the magistrates court and a maximum fine of £1000. Some folks will pay their back taxes in that case, others will deny the existence of their broadcast receiving equipment.

      --

      Sigs. We don't need no steenking sigs.

    35. Re:Supporting citizens vs supporting a platform by GungaDan · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Got enough straw in that man?

      "So, things that is only useful to a minority of people should not be done by the government, yes? Which means they should stop spending any money that helps the blind or disabled. Or the unemployed. Heck, I'm neither blind nor unemployed, so what the fuck is the government doing spending my money on this shit?"

      iPhone users are not a protected class under US disability statutes, and I highly doubt that they are in the UK, either. Despite the strong evidence of mental retardation evident in actually owning an iPhone, there is probably no compelling reason to so classify and protect iPhone owners.

      --
      Eloi are stupid, throw morlocks at them!
    36. Re:Supporting citizens vs supporting a platform by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      OMG, my (American) water bill must be a tax too, as the government "owns" the water company.

      You're retarded.

    37. Re:Supporting citizens vs supporting a platform by squiggleslash · · Score: 1

      Kinda like America's "Post Office" and "Amtrak". Although even in America, if you claimed that having to buy stamps or train tickets in exchange for mail delivery or rail passage constituted "taxation", you'd be laughed at.

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    38. Re:Supporting citizens vs supporting a platform by LurkerXXX · · Score: 1

      Sure, but it's likely that in the future, folks will get an HD TV as their old SD ones fail. The signal and older high-def shows you may want to watch again will be waiting for you. What's the odds everyone in the country is going to eventually replace their current phone with an iPhone?

    39. Re:Supporting citizens vs supporting a platform by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the biggest problem is that public money should be spent on public benefit. Not everyone has an iPhone, so an iPhone-only app is stupid.

      Not everyone is handicapped, but governments still require handicap items in business.

      Not everyone has a car, either. Guess it is time to start tearing up the motorways!

    40. Re:Supporting citizens vs supporting a platform by tian2992 · · Score: 1

      Yes It's called JavaME, and almost all smartphones, (Symbian, Android, BlackBerry, MeeGo, and more) are capable of running, except the iPhone.

    41. Re:Supporting citizens vs supporting a platform by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you have a basic 625-line scanning TV and analogue receiver only, you still have to pay for BBC HDTV programs and digital content.

      Of course the license fee is a tax. A tax on televisions.

    42. Re:Supporting citizens vs supporting a platform by Tom · · Score: 1

      iPhone users are not a protected class under US disability statutes, and I highly doubt that they are in the UK, either. Despite the strong evidence of mental retardation evident in actually owning an iPhone, there is probably no compelling reason to so classify and protect iPhone owners.

      You missed the point. By a parsec or two.

      The government does a lot of things for kids, elderly, people who like to walk in parks, people who enjoy football, people who drive cars and a whole long list of other minorities and large groups. Very little of what the government does really benefits everyone, and a large portion of government activities only benefits minorities, protected or not.

      And you completely ignored the part about cost/benefit.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
  10. Effective spending. by RyanFenton · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Cutting spending in a depression is rarely a good strategy. The rich will of course continue to do just about as well - because they just go into crisis mode and order more folks fired to cut spending. That means all the non-rich are left competing for fewer positions with many, many times the number of other potential job seekers.

    Cutting overall government spending doubles this effect by denying more public jobs, while at the same time cutting services that would have helped them make ends meet while there is no practical access to jobs.

    Ideally, what you'd do is tax actual non-business wealth where possible to fight hoarding, so the super-wealthy will be pressured to push money into the market and infrastructure more actively, and less into 'bonuses'. You use that money to help keep the lower and middle classes afloat - where that money will go immediately back into the marketplace, redoubling its effect. You also use that money to fund the development of more small businesses, while cracking down more monopolies, freeing up legal and anti-competitive hurdles that these companies face currently in the current marketplace.

    The conservative "austerity" arguments are cruel - meant to deny the downtrodden any meager assistance in order to solve a problem they seem unwilling to solve when they have power. Conservatives tend to run up debt while in power, to promote the idea that they can make the nation strong, then complain about debt AND weakness while out of power, as the nation attempts to rebuild after their spending orgy (usually funneled to private interests).

    Ryan Fenton

    1. Re:Effective spending. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Look, if it upsets you that much, post your address and I'll be glad to mail you a hankie. A nice pink one to go with your politics.

    2. Re:Effective spending. by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Why don't you post your address and I'll be glad to mail you a fucking clue.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    3. Re:Effective spending. by sznupi · · Score: 1

      Spending should be preferably actually as useful as possible, too - in this case meaning a proper webpage. Or j2me app.

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
  11. It's the upcoming cuts, not the recession by Christianson · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The issue here isn't that there's iPhone apps being developed during a recession, it's that money is being invested in a duplication of services when the government is looking to slash spending by up to 40% across the board. When we're looking at a devastation of public services, it's hard to condone spending intended to benefit a minority of Britons with access to a luxury device.

    1. Re:It's the upcoming cuts, not the recession by tnok85 · · Score: 4, Funny

      Listen. The coolness of Britannia is at risk here. I can't imagine any course of action except to accelerate these iPhone app plans, unless Britannia wants to take over for France as the uncool kid on the block.

    2. Re:It's the upcoming cuts, not the recession by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      The apps were no doubt under development under the last government. It's the current government that is wanting swathing cuts, and probably cancelling any unfinished iPhone apps will be part of those cuts. So there's no contradiction there.

    3. Re:It's the upcoming cuts, not the recession by horza · · Score: 1

      At least in France it is illegal to lock a handset to a carrier. Also, I pay €12.50/month for 20mb/s uncapped broadband, and bi-directional 100mb/s fibre is being rolled out all over town. In Britain a lot of broadband providers have monthly caps unlike France.

      From not too long ago what-is-the-internet-is-it-anything-like-minitel France has come a long way. Though they catapulted back with the download-stuff-3-times-get-disconnected law, much like Britain. With the Digital Cripple the Economy Bill certainly Britain is now the uncool kid on the block.

      On the other hand, I am very hopeful for the new government. Today they repealed police powers to stop and search without warranted suspicion. They appear committed to transforming Britain back into a place where you would want to live. This scrutiny over spending tax payers money trying to bolster Apple profits is another welcome thing.

      Philip.

    4. Re:It's the upcoming cuts, not the recession by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      More accurately, they want reports on the impact of 25% and 40% spending cuts for all departments except ones that are protected from cuts by policy (i.e.. the NHS and a few others which I can't remember off the top of my head). In other words they need to make cuts, but it won't be 40% across the board, so they are evaluating where is best to make the cuts.

  12. Not just websites, but data by Chuck+Chunder · · Score: 1

    The UK government has done some great things which can allow third party apps, such as create the TransXChange schema for exchanging information about public transport (which is used other places too).

    On my iPhone I have TripView which is a third party app that (I assume) uses such data and provides a far better interface than any web page (or paper based time table) could.

    --
    Boffoonery - downloadable Comedy Benefit for Bletchley Park
  13. HTML5? by exomondo · · Score: 3, Informative

    With the capabilities of HTML5 you'd think they'd do webapps instead of platform-specific ones.

    1. Re:HTML5? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As far as government apps go, they'd probably work fine on HTML 3 anyway

  14. just plain insulting by ILuvRamen · · Score: 3, Insightful

    They sort of buried the lead. It's not "the latest technology," it's an iPhone. Programming a government anything for an Apple product is extremely unfair and insulting to people smart enough to use something better from another company.

    --
    Google's Super Secret Search Algorithm: SELECT @search_results FROM internet WHERE @search_results = 'good'
    1. Re:just plain insulting by ninjakoala · · Score: 1

      "Better" for some. The fact that you prefer one brand or piece of tech over another does not make you smarter - it's just your opinion.

      All other considerations aside, there's a good reason why iPhone is the target platform for lots of applications: It was the first phone to pull off a mobile computing platform. Yes, Android phones, Blackberry phones (and more) are lovely too, but to be honest, I think developing for iPhone is the mobile equivalent of developing for Windows: It's the platform where there's the biggest chance someone will use your product - due to sheer volume and users' behavioral patterns. I think it's not the best use of neither money nor technology, but if you have to settle on applications for a mobile platform, I can't see a stronger alternative. Not right now at least.

      In this case the only reason to develop an application instead of a website is so you can use it for reference while out of coverage. I don't know how relevant that is in the UK, but here in Denmark I would never have to walk far to regain coverage (yeah, no AT&T here, so only real problem is in valleys with no coverage).

      --
      Against the grain
    2. Re:just plain insulting by Superken7 · · Score: 1

      1. windows has a LOT more marketshare than the iphone does, plus there is not yet a clear winner in the mobile market.
      2. Even if you must say so, BBs are still the "windows of the smarpthone". At least in most countries in the world, I honestly don't know about the UK right now.
      3. I do not agree with the idea of the goverment developing windows-only software (with my taxes), especially when there is a perfectly good multiplatform alternative. You should not be required to pay and use a propietary, vendor-specific software such as iOS, Windows or even Android.

      Why not just a website? If coverage is a concern, you could always easily embed it into an app (into a "WebView"). And that should be VERY cheap to develop for, say, the 5 biggest platforms.

    3. Re:just plain insulting by HopefulIntern · · Score: 1

      Yes, Android phones, Blackberry phones (and more) are lovely too, but to be honest, I think developing for iPhone is the mobile equivalent of developing for Windows: It's the platform where there's the biggest chance someone will use your product - due to sheer volume and users' behavioral patterns

      I dunno about behavioural patterns, but more Android phones have been sold than iPhones. But I guess the frivolous spender is more likely to have an iPhone, given the very nature of it, so useless, silly apps like the drink-a-beer app sells better on an iPhone.

    4. Re:just plain insulting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      2. Even if you must say so, BBs are still the "windows of the smarpthone". At least in most countries in the world, I honestly don't know about the UK right now.

      Either by "most countries", you mean the US, or they are more like the "mainframe of the smartphone". Large business may have them, but it's not like I've actually seen one.

      Ok, that's not entirely true, I actually have seen a mainframe. Unlike a Blackberry.

    5. Re:just plain insulting by Superken7 · · Score: 1

      well, I am european and I see lots of BBs, more or less as many BBs as iphones.

    6. Re:just plain insulting by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      1. windows has a LOT more marketshare than the iphone does, plus there is not yet a clear winner in the mobile market.

      In terms of devices, that's true. In terms of downloaded apps, I think they are very much in the same ballpark of around 90% market share.

      2. Even if you must say so, BBs are still the "windows of the smarpthone".

      In worldwide device market share, BBs are a distant second to Symbian. And in the app download stakes, they are nowhere.

      3. I do not agree with the idea of the goverment developing windows-only software (with my taxes), especially when there is a perfectly good multiplatform alternative. You should not be required to pay and use a propietary, vendor-specific software such as iOS, Windows or even Android

      I agree. More useful is for governments to provide access to APIs and open raw data. Such that others can write apps that leverage government data for any platform.

    7. Re:just plain insulting by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      I dunno about behavioural patterns, but more Android phones have been sold than iPhones.

      No. iPhone worldwide market share is larger than Android, and iPhone has been shipping longer. Lots more iPhones have been sold than Android devices.

    8. Re:just plain insulting by HopefulIntern · · Score: 1

      Youre right, its just in the US, looking back at the article.

    9. Re:just plain insulting by ninjakoala · · Score: 1

      As far as I can tell that's just sales for a specific time frame. Not all-time sales. Also consider that iPod Touch devices are capable of running the same applications - expanding the platform considerably.

      Here are some actual US marketshare numbers from 2010: Nielsen.

      --
      Against the grain
    10. Re:just plain insulting by ninjakoala · · Score: 1

      I've seen one once. It looked fairly interesting. I see iPhones and Android sets everywhere, though (mostly iPhones).

      --
      Against the grain
    11. Re:just plain insulting by sznupi · · Score: 1

      Valleys in Denmark?...

      (j2me is a pretty damn strong and quite a bit older alternative BTW)

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
  15. missing link by Chuck+Chunder · · Score: 1

    The "other places too" text was supposed to be a link to it's use in New South Wales, Australia

    --
    Boffoonery - downloadable Comedy Benefit for Bletchley Park
  16. Oh Noes, Innovation by Alcoholist · · Score: 1

    Heaven forbid a government finding new and innovative ways to deliver services to its people. Maybe the iPhone is not the best platform, but at least they are trying.

    --
    Bibo Ergo Sum.
    1. Re:Oh Noes, Innovation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think the problem is there is no forethought. "Trying" isn't enough. In this case, it appears that "trying" is worse than doing nothing.

      I have no vested interest in this, but surely one can see the ignorance of writing apps for a luxury device aimed for people without jobs (see: Job Centre).

      The web has been around long enough for even the political critters to know what it is. I'm sure if you look further, you'll see a battery of iPhones bought for the folks that OK'd it. I'm not sure how far "conflict of interest" would go, but it makes me rub my chin.

    2. Re:Oh Noes, Innovation by julesh · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Heaven forbid a government finding new and innovative ways to deliver services to its people. Maybe the iPhone is not the best platform, but at least they are trying.

      They're failing. Over three times as many people in the UK have smartphones that run Symbian than iPhones. Probably somewhere in the region of 50% more have Blackberries. Yet neither of these platforms were targetted, despite the obvious fact that an application for either of these would be much more useful. Why? I'd guess it's because it's not as headline catching. We don't want our government to be catching headlines, we want them to do things that are actually useful.

  17. too much on too few by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    i think its less to do with using technology, or apps only being for iphone, or the total amount spent- its the amount spent on single apps. i can't believe £10'000 or £40'000 is good value for money for a single app.

    i'm not sure how much you pay an iphone developer but if you pay them £40 per hour then thats 1'000 hours and thats 125 full time days (4 months) to make an app that demonstrates how to change a wheel. i've never made an iphone app, but i can't believe it takes 125 days fulltime to make a basic one.

    there will be lots more stories of excess and waste from the previous government coming out and not all of it will be tech related. this story isn't an attack on technology, its an attack on the previous government's waste.

    1. Re:too much on too few by clickclickdrone · · Score: 2, Interesting

      There's a lot more to building an app than paying a coder. I think GBP40K is incredibly cheap once you factor in management time, meetings etc. Heck, you can easily rack up GBP300K just deciding whether to investigate something (BTDT/got tshirt).

      --
      I want a list of atrocities done in your name - Recoil
    2. Re:too much on too few by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Heck, you can easily rack up GBP300K just deciding whether to investigate something (BTDT/got tshirt).

      Cool, I want a job as a potential-app-investigator!

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
  18. Re:Whodunnit? Jewdunnit! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    tl/dr

  19. Square Wheels by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 4, Interesting

    One of the apps was for the Job Centre which tend to concentrate on lower paid jobs to help people on the dole find employment. So the target audience for the app are those least likely to be able to afford an iPhone to use it! If, instead of being distracted by a shiny new toy, even a minimal level of thought had been put into the planning stage this would have been obvious.

    What the article completely seems to miss is that the scandal is about stupid, ineffective use of technology not the use of technology itself. Innovation is certainly to be encouraged but if your new innovation is a square wheel you should expect to get shouted at for wasting money.

    1. Re:Square Wheels by nmg196 · · Score: 1

      > the target audience for the app are those least likely to be able to afford an iPhone to use it

      Next thing you'll be telling us that the poorest citizens of the UK can't afford Satellite TV either - when in practice, the less money you earn, the more likely you are to have it :)

    2. Re:Square Wheels by Hittite+Creosote · · Score: 1

      Yes, it's obvious that the unemployed are less likely to own an iPhone. So there's lots of unemployed people this won't help. So what? There's also enough unemployed people it will help - recent graduates, those recently made redundant. If it helps enough of them (and 50,000 downloading the app in ten weeks suggests there are thousands who at least thought it would help) then it may well be cost effective. It doesn't take a lot of people in work to generate 35k in income tax. So it is not stupid, and it is probably not ineffective.

    3. Re:Square Wheels by SharpFang · · Score: 1

      It's the same mindset that cancelled the program of school education aimed at reducing teen pregnancy ratio. After 8 months since the program started the rate of births by mothers below 18 didn't drop by any significant percent and so the program was cancelled.

      --
      45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
    4. Re:Square Wheels by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 1

      So what? There's also enough unemployed people it will help - recent graduates, those recently made redundant.

      ...and how many would it have helped if they had developed a website instead of an app? I'm not saying that it did not help some people but a little thought before hand could have helped far more.

    5. Re:Square Wheels by sznupi · · Score: 1

      Cost effective in comparison to developing a j2me app or simply a website? Unlikely.

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
    6. Re:Square Wheels by IrquiM · · Score: 1

      So the target audience for the app are those least likely to be able to afford an iPhone to use it!

      And they're still the most likely people to by them, according to personal observations on the tube.

      --
      This is blinging
    7. Re:Square Wheels by mjwx · · Score: 1

      One of the apps was for the Job Centre which tend to concentrate on lower paid jobs to help people on the dole find employment. So the target audience for the app are those least likely to be able to afford an iPhone to use it! If, instead of being distracted by a shiny new toy, even a minimal level of thought had been put into the planning stage this would have been obvious.

      Actually, the biggest market in Australia for Iphones is the low earners, minimum wage and sub A$30K crowd. They get the oldest, cheapest model on a A$49 plan and think it's a bargain. This is the kind of person who uses a phone to replace a desktop or laptop, not that they used a desktop or laptop for anything more complex then Arsebook.

      Iphones have become synoymous with "cant afford anything better but want to look like I have money", RIM and Nokia E series means "Work gave me this phone so I have a high paying job", Android means "I'm geeky enough to know better" or "I listened to someone who knows better" whilst WinMo and Nokia N series says "I don't really know what I'm doing and let the salesdroid talk me into this, oooh look it's a bycycle".

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
  20. Re:Proprietary formats by Spad · · Score: 4, Informative

    The summary is fucking awful. This isn't about the BBC *at all*, they're the ones reporting the story about the *Government* wasting money on largely worthless iPhone apps rather than focusing on useful, cross platform ones.

  21. Best Of Both Worlds by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    These ridiculous public sector projects are developed by people who want the stability of public sector employment and the cachet of working in a hi-tech environment. If you want to draw a public sector salary and build a public sector pension then please get the basics right and provide a useful service to *all* citizens. If you want to work with the latest, greatest hi-tech whiz-bang then join a start-up. Please stop CV building at tax-payers' expense.

  22. Re:Yeah, they should shut down TV and just do radi by Psaakyrn · · Score: 1

    "And they can easily charge and make the cost of development back."

    Wait. We pay them (taxpayer money) to make the application, then pay them to get it?

  23. Re:Yeah, they should shut down TV and just do radi by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    you mean like this

    http://developer.android.com/sdk/ndk/index.html

  24. Not Again!!!! by BangaIorean · · Score: 1

    A debate on whether iPhone apps are useful or not is a different matter, but I find this statement ridiculous:

    "bad in Britain for the government to use modern technology during a recession"

    The British government can request all its citizens to start living in caves and learn how to hunt animals. That's the easiest solution to 'recession', isn't it? In general, I have a high opinion of any regime that tries to keep abreast of the times and embraces the latest technology. That's rare enough in any Government in the first place. Criticize the use and limited reach of iPhones if you wish, but stop claiming that 'use of modern technology is bad during recession'

  25. Cheaper than websites by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Whilst I see the points being made, even £40000 is cheaper than the websites they make. Some had £4 to £5 million for planning alone. If you want a tipoff, get SERCO to make a site for you ( who then subcontract to BT)

  26. Not so fast... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As someone who has recently spent time on the "dole" in the UK I was surprised to see how many people had smartphones - a substantial amount of which were iPhones.
    I figure it you need income support and iPhone is out of reach but I guess if Tesco sells them "every little helps".

    I don't think developing iPhone apps is a thing any government should do.
    Providing API's to services and letting commercial/public developers slog it out in the marketplace seems a much wiser way to go.

  27. Re:Proprietary formats by Andy+Smith · · Score: 1

    Thank you. I didn't RTFA. As you say, nothing to do with the BBC, who are not developing iPhone apps.

    Apologies to all for the wasted bytes.

  28. The "government" by SmallFurryCreature · · Score: 1

    For the uneducated masses to understand how government works, they first got to get it through their thick skulls that there is no such thing as the government.

    It is not Number 10, or the White House and it is not the IRS. Instead you have a huge pile of loosely connected organisations and individuals who might in some part be funded with tax-payers money and get their instructions probably in some way from elected officials... but think about it. Just how often does the IRS need to talk to the president (using American examples since Americans would be confused by other governments, but the rest of the world is smart enough to translate it to their own system)?

    What you end up with is a something that makes a mega-corp like Microsoft or even one of the asian giants look like a garage setup. And just as MS does some odd things you wouldn't expect like developing a new method for inserting batteries, so does the government.

    Now take this story and substitute iPhone app with website. A LOT of you suggest it would have been better to develop a webapp that EVERYONE could access.

    WHOOOP WHOOP WHOOP, BIASED SLASHDOT NERD WARNING

    Everyone can access the web? No they can't. Not everyone and therefor by the logic that since not everyone has an iPhone no iPhone apps should be developed, the government should also develop no websites. Or for that matter have a phone line.

    PART of the government job is to think of the future. iPhone apps are "the future" in the same way as Websites were 15 years ago. Part of this money isn't just for providing a useful service to a handful of people, but about finding out about new technolgies that might chance how the government communicates with its citizens.

    When the first government website launched, it wasn't just to do its own job, but to test how this might work out in the future. And some of this will result in nothing and some... well how much do you use the internet today? Remember, the internet, brought to you by the US government. NOT by private industry. Could you imagine the internet if MS had developed it?

    What people who call for government to do only the absolute minimum and never spend any money seem to desire is a world that declines until nothing is being done anymore. They would no doubt have protested fitting the police station with a phone, since only the rich had phones anyway. And why should the bobby have a car when only 1% of the population has cars? Why build hardened roads for those rich bastards with cars?

    The British should know what happens when government spends the least possible. Have they forgotten the year the railroads sucked even more then usual when everything had to be fixed in a hurry after decades of neglect?

    Yes, some money will be wasted. But it is part of the process of society constantly changing. Yes, you could say that investment in a BBS site was a waste of money. You would be wrong but you could say it. Let people who are willing to explore things run the country. Else you end up with a country run by accountants. Laywers are bad enough, but accountants? Here is a simple sum: You are not cost effective, please step into the suicide boot.

    --

    MMO Quests are like orgasms:

    You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

    1. Re:The "government" by serviscope_minor · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Everyone can access the web? No they can't.

      What proportion of people have an I phone?

      What propostion of people can access the web?

      Not everyone and therefor by the logic that since not everyone has an iPhone no iPhone apps should be developed, the government should also develop no websites.

      It would very much appear that you are in no position to be leturing the rest of slashdot about logic.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    2. Re:The "government" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      WHOOOP WHOOP WHOOP, BIASED SLASHDOT NERD WARNING

      Everyone can access the web? No they can't. Not everyone and therefor by the logic that since not everyone has an iPhone no iPhone apps should be developed, the government should also develop no websites. Or for that matter have a phone line.

      yes, everyone can access the web. As soon as public libraries start lending out iPhones we'll stop complaining.

  29. The right way by maroberts · · Score: 1

    If the government had gone about this the right way, it would have provided a phone independent API to its services, so that iPhone, Android, Symbian (any any other) developers could produce applications to access those services. That way it could have got its tools without paying for them. It makes you wonder whether any of Infoworlds investers have their fingers in the gravy train....

    The Register points out that in other news, the Government has spend £35million ($50million) on developing a single website see:
    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/06/30/coi_website/

    --

    Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
    Karma: Chameleon

  30. No iPhone Apps, Please — I dont have an iPho by Mechanist.tm · · Score: 1

    No iPhone Apps, Please — I dont have an iPhone. author of this article obviously has an iPhone.

  31. BBC is not "the government" by tehcyder · · Score: 1

    it is an independent corporation funded by the licence fee.

    --
    To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    1. Re:BBC is not "the government" by koiransuklaa · · Score: 1

      That nitpicking is not relevant to the discussion at all. BBC is just reporting on the government spending.

  32. Terrible article by Idiomatick · · Score: 1

    WTF should Britain be spending money on iphone apps? Using their apparent rejection of iphone as the one true future as proof of Britain's technology illiteracy is ridiculous. This smacks of Steve Jobs worship and/or extreme stupidity. (Is the author aware of the current political sphere around funding in Britain atm?)

  33. Murdoch media by dugeen · · Score: 1

    What you have to understand is that the majority of the UK newspapers, in readership terms, are controlled by Rupert Murdoch, who sees the BBC as a dangerous rival to his ambitions to control British television. So basically any time the BBC does anything that costs money, his papers jump on it for wasting taxpayer funds. (Mind you, they do walk into some of these things - take the millions they spent on propaganda for digital pay TV).

    1. Re:Murdoch media by Shrike82 · · Score: 1

      This would be a good point if it were the BBC spending the money. In fact the BBC just reported on the Government's spending on these nonsense apps.

      --
      You can advertise in this sig from as little as £99.99 a month!
  34. Re:Yeah, they should shut down TV and just do radi by Idiomatick · · Score: 1

    That seems like a sensible reaction on the face of it but really its silly and wrong. If people using it pay for it then you won't have paid for it. If it breaks even then only those using it paid. If you argument was that the taxpayer paid for it so it could be available to all and THAT is being taken away then you might have a point. But paying for something with taxes and then charging for it is 100% normal. For example look at any toll bridge or highway.

    As a taxpayer you pay for the availability and the people that use the service pay to use it.

  35. False by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    PART of the government job is to think of the future. iPhone apps are "the future" in the same way as Websites were 15 years ago. Part of this money isn't just for providing a useful service to a handful of people, but about finding out about new technolgies that might chance how the government communicates with its citizens.

    You are very wrong.

    Websites were and are an open standard.

    iPhone apps are almost exactly the opposite of that.

    The government officials involved should be apologising and paying back funds involved in something this stupid.

  36. Re:Proprietary formats by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    >If a TV viewer in Britain doesn't pay their license fee then they can be fined heavily and, ultimately, sent to prison.

    Only if they're stupid enough to let the TV licencing goons into their house voluntarily (they don't have any legal right of access), then incriminate themselves by signing a confession. If you ignore the junk mail TVL send out, and close the door on the goons, there's no problem - been doing so for years.

  37. On the Other Side of the Pond by value_added · · Score: 1

    Here in the States, National Public Radio has an iPhone app, and my local station, the uber-cool KCRW, also has one.

    Granted, neither of those apps provide motorcycle information, but NPR is, in part, publically funded.

    1. Re:On the Other Side of the Pond by penguinchris · · Score: 1

      NPR has an Android app too, I have it on my Nexus One. It's basically the same as the iPhone version as far as I can tell (which I tried on an iPod Touch), but I haven't used either very much (my car was basically permanently tuned to KPCC when I lived in the area the past two years, so I was covered... maybe I'll start using it now that I don't live near such a good station anymore - KCRW is nice to have instead of the other music stations which are awful, but I prefer the interesting talk stuff on KPCC while driving).

  38. Missing the point... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In other news, those condemning the use of trains to cart Jews to the gas chambers in the 1940's indicates they're luddites, do they not know travelling by train is the future?

    Logic. Sort of.

  39. Anonymous Coward by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Guys - a lot of you have missed the big picture.

    The government had a go at the BBC for spending money to develop iPhone(mainly)/Android apps. Because the beeb is a public institution (supported by the government and taxpayers) the government decided it was a waste of money.
    The BBC then decided to ask for government expenditures on technology. It did this through the Freedom of Information act.
    The beeb has discovered that the government is spending a lot of money on websites and iphone apps. And by a lot of money - I mean that one website cost £35 million! And the apps are on trivial/useless things (mostly).
    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/06/30/coi_website/

    AC

  40. I think it's a bad idea by obarthelemy · · Score: 4, Insightful

    - iPhones are proprietary. Unless the Gov supports other platforms (Android, RIM, WinMob, Symbian), it is unfair to support just one.
    - Could not the same results be achieved with a web-only (intrinsically multi-platform) app ?
    - is the stuff that important that it MUST be available on a mobile (I should RTFA, maybe...)

    --
    The Cloud - because you don't care if your apps and data are up in the air.
  41. As a Brit, I thank you. We are now the World again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    As a Brit, I thank you. We are now the World again! Rule Brittannia! Britannia rules the waves!

  42. where is kdawson? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    is kdawson now samzenpus? whats going on here?!

  43. You don't have to pay if you don't receive. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You don't have to pay if you don't receive TV broadcasts. I have a TV but it isn't tuned in and used for playing DVDs. I do not have to pay the license.

    Let me guess: you're a Daily Mail reader or a libertarian USian.

  44. Re:Proprietary formats by ledow · · Score: 1

    Or they don't watch TV as it's being broadcast.

    No matter the medium, smartphone, iPlayer, TV reception, etc. - so long as you don't watch/record it while it's being broadcast live on TV, you're fine. You can watch anything "historical" (i.e. was on TV 20 minutes ago) without needing a license at all (though how you record that using a DVD/VCR/PVR without recording the live signal is another matter entirely, but thankfully the BBC have iPlayer to solve that problem).

    Realising that I watch about 0.01% of what's broadcast, if that, and that I watch things that are mostly being *re-broadcast* (and thus easily available on DVD / VHS), and that I watch most things online in a time-shifted way anyway, I stopped paying for a TV licence. You do have to deal with the idiot licensing authorities who appear to have a hard time believing someone *does* understand the law and *doesn't* need a TV license, no matter how legitimately, but that's another matter entirely.

    And as pointed out - they have no right to enter premises AT ALL unless accompanied by a police officer who himself has to have good cause and/or a search warrant. Considering the TV licence is about the same price as a cheap TV itself (discounts for blind / black-and-white "viewers" - big F deal) it's hardly worth them even bothering to go that far when they can just spam every valid address in the UK with their "You don't appear to have a license" crap which you can happily bin and ignore.

  45. Example in CH by SpaghettiPattern · · Score: 0

    Here in CH the Swiss federal railways decided to develop an iPhone app where you can consult the timetables. You can even buy an electronic ticket. Pretty cool.

    Needles to say, there's no Android version and the NOKIA version of the app is on of the finer varieties of crap. The iPhone app shifts good money towards Apple.

    If anything, public money should be spent on open(-ish) systems and IMHO Android should be the first supported platform.

    --

    I hadn't the slightest objection to his spending his time planning massacres for the bourgeoisie... (P.G. Wodehouse)
  46. Re:The BBC should be broken up by fremsley471 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The BBC is probably the one thing that Britain is best at in the world. No other English-language country has anything as good as it (can't comment on others); it is quite wonderful. I think you underestimate how much it would cost to subscribe to ABC1-friendly 6Music, Radio 4, BBC2/4 if it were not cross-subsidised by the 90% of the population who never watch them- but can if they like. Cultural ghettoisation is bad for all of us. And, of course, who makes a huge % of the high-quality programmes you see on non-BBC tv?

    I totally agree with you re: news reporting. However, allowing Sky/Fox to be the arbiter of news agendas sends a violent shiver down the spine.

  47. It's not that using technology is bad by EmagGeek · · Score: 1

    It's that it's using technology at a large expense that helps only a small percentage of people.

    If 20% of people use iPhones, the government would still have to come up with a way to give fair treatment to the other 80% who don't. It's the responsibility of government to make its services equally available to all, and by doing what they are doing, they are making services disproportionately more available to a small percentage of the population, and that's wrong.

  48. troll article for more traffic? by kj_kabaje · · Score: 1

    Seriously horrible troll of an article.

  49. Re:Proprietary formats by RobotRunAmok · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The summary is written by the same guy wrote the "blog" at InfoWorld, to which he links. InforWorld's astroturfing here has devolved from the shameless into the downright misleading and incomprehensible. But they've probably already paid Slashdot in advance for the space so they've got to fill it somehow...

  50. Re:The BBC should be broken up by Shrike82 · · Score: 1

    Responses to some of you misinformed points: The BBC reported the story - they are not the subject of it. The licence fee is not mandatory; simply throw away your televisions and radios and, hey presto, you don't have to pay a penny. Just because you (and I) don't like the majority of crap programmes they put out doesn't mean everyone else hates them too, you just need to appreciate the decent stuff that they do make and broadcast. Yes the BBC news is biased, but it's a lot less biased than most by sheer virtue of their fear of legal action. My God why am I wasting time with an AC...

    --
    You can advertise in this sig from as little as £99.99 a month!
  51. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  52. The amusing part... by Takionbrst · · Score: 1

    I can probably read the BBC article using the BBC news app on my android phone. For those of you unfamiliar with the BBC, it's a corporation operating under royal charter that's funded primarily by taxes (the television licensing fee). Oh irony, how you brighten my day...

  53. Considering medical costs by Ukab+the+Great · · Score: 1

    If the anti-smoking app only gets 10 people to quit smoking and the drinks tracker only prevents 10 serious DUI accidents, the entire app foray would still pay for itself tenfold.

  54. Re:The BBC should be broken up by yargnad · · Score: 0

    "No other English-language country has anything as good as it (can't comment on others); it is quite wonderful." You, in fact, did comment on the others with that very statement. I still don't think the pool of taxpayer money, of which nearly everyone contributes, should be used to create something that benefits only the few. Apple would like you to believe that every relevant person on the planet already has an iPhone, but the reality is, most can't afford it and quite a few others simply don't want one.

  55. Marketshare is missing the point by mdwh2 · · Score: 1

    I entirely agree with this of course, but there's another point: it's not just about marketshare.

    When the Government (or the BBC, or even private companies) only support Windows-only solutions, people rightly criticise them. On Slashdot, there's no end of criticism. The fact that 90% of people use Windows is beside the point - those 10% should still have a right to use it. So even if we lived in a fantasy world where the Iphone was the market leader (as some people here bizarrely seem to believe), it would still be worthy of criticism.

    There's also a point about unfair competition. Why is the Government giving an unfair advantage to one company, by using taxes to write apps for their platforms? Not to mention the problems of allowing Apple total control over whether the Government apps are approved or not!

    Of course, the fact that the Iphone is only owned by about 3% of the population just makes this all the more ridiculous.

    1. Re:Marketshare is missing the point by sznupi · · Score: 1

      Much less than 3%; sure, sales of iPhones are between 2-3% recently, but it's different when comparing actual total sold with number of other phones in use (many of them having often quite a bit longer lifetimes)

      Last numbers (Mai) claim 50 million iPhones total; while there was a rush recently, some of that 50 million are no longer in use, so it's probably decently close. Now, the world has seen 3.3 billion mobile subscribers at the end of 2007, and 4.6 billion at the end of 2009 - near 5 billion now probably.

      Yeah, around 1%.

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
  56. The Iphone is not one model by mdwh2 · · Score: 1

    I agree entirely with your post, though just to add:

    although no one model outsells the iPhone

    Don't get fooled by the "only one model" myth we get from Apple users :) There have been several generations, with very different features. Even within a single generation, there are different models (albeit very similar, but then the same is true of many Nokia phones say, that have different model numbers despite only minor changes in features and running the same CPU/OS/etc).

    I'm not sure why it matters if it was only one phone anyway - just because one company decides to produce several models doesn't mean they're guaranteed more sales, rather, their sales may be split between the models. It might be special if it meant a phone sold well for a long period of time, but that's not true here anyway, since Apple update their phones as often as anyone else.

    For a real example of a single model, look at the RAZR 3. To put things into persective, that phone sold twice as many phones as Apple have ever sold in their entire product range! And that's just one of Motorola's many phones!

    For another comparison: Nokia sell more phones every quarter than Apple have ever sold...

    1. Re:The Iphone is not one model by sznupi · · Score: 1

      Nokia 1100 is probably even better example - seems to be the single most popular type of electronic device in history.

      (though TBH both it and, especially, RAZR had several versions - different radio frequencies, for RAZR also CDMA versions and wild carrier UIs)

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
  57. Re:The BBC should be broken up by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you bothered to RTFA before sounding off, you'd see that it's the government making the debatable apps. The BBC is just reporting on the issue.

  58. Mod parent up! by UpnAtom · · Score: 1

    Now if only I could find an IT-savvy MP I could forward this to...

  59. This is bad by geekoid · · Score: 1

    they are using limited funds to make a system that only a small pool of taxpayers can use.

    Why don't that use that money to make a good online presence that ANY smart phone can use?

    That would be a good use of money instead of paying money for admission to a fenced garden that only a small pool of user could use.

    If the apps where on Open product, then they could be used with smart phones the support open apps. This would have the potential to be available to all.

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  60. J2ME is the true multiplatform,standard "OS" by Ilgaz · · Score: 1

    I was just about to suggest using J2ME , the true multi handset "app" platform which would do wonders for a entity like BBC as they could get whatever powerful certificate they want...

    Of course, it is not "cool" or "hip" but it works, ask Opera guys (Mini), especially in such scenario. Yahoo idiots did their own J2ME platform based runtime once, suggesting developers to work with widgets and either the lack of trust (which was verified later) or financial issues resulted in giving up. I actually used it on my handset as many people, it worked perfectly. As it is a schizoid company, they abandoned it and suggested everyone use their branded Opera Mini which is essentially J2ME.

    Of course, there is a catch. You support 99% of phones (non smart included) but, you still have to code an "app" for iPhone as it doesn't support J2ME.

    While on it, iPhone is an advanced smart phone, it doesn't equal "modern technology". Android, Symbian and even Windows 7/Mobile are modern too, in their own way.

    As we talk about multi platform access, I don't mention the funny fact that Symbian is at London, open source, huge market share and British technology. That is a question Symbian foundation, especially Nokia should ask themselves first and BBC later...

  61. Labour Govt IT spending by UpnAtom · · Score: 1

    NHS Choose & Book and medical records database £13bn
    - don't work properly, slow, horribly intrusive (central control of your medical records), new govt can't figure out whether to scrap it or try and get something useful out of the £13bn spent.

    ID cards £20bn, £1+bn spent
    - centrepiece of Labour's Stasi 2.0, including numbering the population and issuing them with tagging to collect data on the minutiae of their lives.

    Contactpoint (ID cards for kids) £224m
    - making sure the kiddies are on the database by insisting that all schoolkids & parents are registered

    Defence Information Infrastructure £7bn
    - still not finished

    And which country's IT corporations got all the contracts? Yes, the good old US of A.

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article7079044.ece

  62. Re:Supporting slippery slopes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Not everyone has a browser, so a browser-only app is stupid. At least make it a normal piece of paper, which anyone with eyes can access.

  63. J2ME is good for all by Ilgaz · · Score: 1

    "Sure, let's have the Government expand it to provide for Symbian, Blackberry, Android, Windows Mobile, J2ME etc."

    There is no need to "expand". Code something in J2ME and ship on _everything_ you mention, including non smart ones. Believe or not, you can even do "location based" cool stuff on J2ME handsets.

    Blackberry and Android, no matter how good they hide that fact, are Java based. You know, it is not "cool" to run Java these days. I mean "Java based" as, J2ME extended, a special Java, whatever you want to call it.

    I wonder if Oracle completely opened, freely licensed J2ME, it would change a thing? Don't answer too quickly as I have seen Nokia spend hundreds of millions of dollars to open source symbian, acquire Qt, LGPL it, the result: "iPhone=modern technology", Nokia=Amateur coder, troll target.

    1. Re:J2ME is good for all by mcvos · · Score: 1

      Doesn't Android run a custom version of J2SE? Still, shouldn't be too hard to port.

    2. Re:J2ME is good for all by squiggleslash · · Score: 1

      J2ME doesn't cut it, you're still facing five different platforms with five different UIs that you'll have to customize the UI for. While it's easy to write a MIDP app that provides a native interface across multiple keypad phones, the others you mention are substantially different enough from one another for writing one UI to be a good solution.

      J2ME, Blackberry, and Android are Java in the same way as GNU/Linux, Windows, and Mac OS are all "C". Java is a overloaded term that is used in some instances to mean the Sun Java framework, and in other cases the Java language. In Android's case, the Sun Java framework isn't a part of the system. You can't write an app in Java, and expect it to work under all the above platforms without writing the same kind of glue that you have to do if you want to write, say, an application in C for Mac OS X, Windows, GNU/Linux, and AmigaOS. And again, in practice, you have to write different UIs for each of the different platforms.

      I think it'd be worth Sun/Oracle's while (or rather worth our while) putting together a "J2ME/TS" for touchscreen phones, that abstracts the touchscreen UIs so programmers can easily put together applications that work on all these platforms. That said, they're up against some big hurdles. There's no question they can release the stub code for Android and Symbian, and Blackberry would probably adopt it, but the list of platforms above is notable for the absence of two major players, iOS and webOS, neither of which are - for different reasons - going to be particularly third party development system friendly.

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  64. Make all the data by ooji · · Score: 1

    available then let other people build the apps.

  65. Especially Symbian by Ilgaz · · Score: 1

    I don't say "ship a BBC sisx and abandon everything" of course... I just want to remind the people that, Symbian, now open source down to a point asking users "what to change in next UI" to ordinary users is in fact, British.

    If I was a British, I would be pissed at "iPhone modern app" misinformation. In fact, if you look very deeper, it is BBC which has a huge effect on Acorn/Psion/Symbian. That is the 80s BBC who could be visionary enough to change where technology is heading, general public access technology (check BBC Micro), can invent unheard things (Teletext aka CeeFax) etc.

    What happened and they changed to a "lets wait for that intern at Apple to verify our app symbols"? Anyone (except Murdoch trolls) wrote about it?

    For people saying "It is a small amount of money", let me remind you, they have a station which a guy from Istanbul tunes in each morning to hear unique/quality British music (BBC 6) and they almost closed it down for budget reasons.

  66. Re:The BBC should be broken up by DaveGod · · Score: 1

    Anyone seen any mention of the "Collateral Damage" video on the BBC news ?

    They ran a 2 minute segment of video highlights and interview with Assange which is still available via the website. I saw it covered on peak programming such as the 10 o'clock news and Breakfast. On the website they also provided the full video and promoted discussion on it. There are some follow-up articles on there too.

  67. "We're British" is funny enough! by loudheart · · Score: 1

    The title "No iPhone Apps, Please — We're British" along brings a smile to my face.

  68. App for that? by DarthVain · · Score: 1

    Srly. Why not just make mobile compatible websites already rather than apps that only one platform or another can use.

    Common sense rly.

  69. BBC weren't allowed to make their own iPhone App by mpcooke3 · · Score: 1

    The BBC is probably just pissed off that they weren't allowed to create a BBC iPhone app, so are getting their revenge on the government by exposing all the pointless apps they've came up with.

  70. &mdash by AP31R0N · · Score: 1

    Is the &mdash supposed to be cute or clever?

    Hire a developer who can fix that for you. It's 2010, not 1997.

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  71. Politics, politics... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A lot has already been ranted about this so Ill be brief:

    App for the masses -> Cross-platform or web-based.

    App development -> Hire a bunch of unemployed programmers through the national employment agency, after which the app/web can be submitted to review/checking/securing by a government office.

    App cost -> Make sure that the app is add supported so that the income can go towards paying the cost of the app; as soon it's paid for itself, extra income is pumped towards unemployment tackling (don't know about the legal stance on this last one but hey, it seems logical to me).

    As for the author's article? Pff.