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GPS Tracking Without a Warrant Declared Legal
jnaujok writes "The Ninth Circuit court has declared that attaching a GPS tracker to your car, as it sits in your driveway, or by extension on a public street, and then using it to monitor every one of your movements, is totally legal, and can be performed by the police without needing a warrant. So, if you live in the Western United States, big brother has arrived."
we hardly ever leave our mom's basements anyways
So then, it must also be legal for me to put one of these devices on my wife's car, or on the local squad cars, without their knowledge? Why do different rules apply to government employees than apply to the rest of us?
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
inb4 inevitable Obama bashing even though any current administration/court system would do the same damn thing.
Quick question for the Americans here: How does it feel to have "won" the cold war only to become your ex-enemy? Really, the irony just doesn't get any better than that.
Linux, you magnificent bastard, I read the fucking manual!
Where I grew up, a person's driveway is most definitely within the domain of "reasonable expectation of privacy." And it's backed up with "git offa ma propertie! "
Other District Courts of appeals have ruled it illegal. Right now, it is illegal in Washington DC, but legal in California. Time for Kagan to show us what she's made of.
excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
and politicians cars, and their kids and wives cars, and post that information on a public website because it isn't illegal right?
Since police powers are an extension of the rights every citizen possesses it will naturally be legal for anyone to do this without permission.
I am becoming gerund, destroyer of verbs.
What really bothers me about stories like this is that the general public seems to not care.
I'm sure it's awful to live in a country where protesting the government will get you arrested or worse.
But it's a different kind of awful to have friends and neighbors who just can't be bothered to stick up for the civil rights of their fellow citizens.
Nah, big bro already been here for a looooong time...
If this is how privacy of a driveway is viewed by the court, it should also follow that a private citizen placing a tracking device on someone's vehicle is not trespassing or violating privacy. I suspect a certain Judge might end up with a GPS tracking device on his car. We need to know where our activist judges are going.
Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler. - Albert Einstein
If I'm reading this right, it would be a breach of your rights if your car was in an enclosed garage, or if you had a fence around your yard.
What about a carport?
What about a keep out sign?
Where do you draw the line on this one, if not using the traditionally assumed legal boundary of the property line?
But can a citizen track the position of a "public servant"?
I've been sitting here for 5 min trying to come up with a snarky comment, but the shear stupidity of this has rubbed off on me and I've got nothing.
I can walk through the parking lot at the police station and attach GPS transmitters to all the squad cars and publish that information to the internet because they have no expectation of privacy, right?
Woo Hoo ... now I can finally keep track of which Strip Clubs to go to when I want to have a word with my Congressman.
I really don't think that the police or CIA or FBI or Illuminati have any interest in me. I am a law abiding citizen, and as far as I am concerned this is not news.
I guess that is free as in beer? Having said that, here in the Netherlands it isn't much better. At least you guys are allowed to insult politicians.
But what if i park in my neighbor's driveway?
I can understand why this decision turned out the way it did. Placing a tracking device on your vehicle is about the same as following you around with an unmarked vehicle. It's much harder to detect of course and so you might think you are unobserved when that's not true.
Anyways I can see this possibly creating a small market for GPS jamming devices. The legality of such devices of course would be questionable if not outright illegal.
The article actually covers the facts fairly well, but it would be much better if the writer didn't label every quote "conservative" or "liberal" with a seemingly naive understanding of the meaning of those terms. For example, when one judge points out that not enough poor people become judges, so they are underrepresented, he is labeled a "raging liberal." This comes from the oversimplified stereotype that liberals love the poor and conservatives hate them. I would expect this from radio or TV pundits, but not from Time magazine.
http://www.ladyada.net/make/wavebubble/
Then they won't see ya!
In Texas I can use deadly force to protect myself, my Property, and others.
If I see a person, in my drive way, F**King with my Car or Truck, I will shoot them.
So, They have the right to put it there and I have the right to shoot them to protect my property. Sounds fair.
The real question comes in not the legality of the placement but in the legality of trespassing to place it, and if your car is in a locked garage can they break in to place it?
Better RTFA before you complain too much; warrants aren't the only method of police oversight and just because it didn't require a warrant doesn't mean gathered data will be automatically or easily permitted in court. It's possible, though I admit unlikely, that oversight of GPS tracking will be completely effective and complete even without warrant requirements. Complaints about this ruling may also be a moot point within a year or so; I can already hear the keyboards clacking as every ACLU lawyer between Seattle and Pheonix prepares their case to push this issue up to SCOTUS.
In any case, I'm still damn happy to have moved to North Carolina and out from under the 9th Circuit. I'm not conservative or liberal in particular, but I've always considered them fucking nuts.
Okay, so, as a citizen of California, I have a question for the Slashdot techies out there. These GPS trackers that can be tacked onto my vehicle. How large are they? What do they resemble? Do they give off any transmission signal/EM radiation of some sort. I am personally appalled by this particular ruling, but if that's how things are going to be, then let the arms race begin. I want to know what, exactly, these GPS trackers do. Do they transmit your location data back to the GPS sat system? Or do they transmit to some kind of local receiver? Do we know that frequency they transmit on?
If the police and government are going to take active duty to track all citizens, without the burden of providing a reasonable level of suspect, then I say we, as citizens fight back for our rights. If the local police want to track our vehicles, what kind of devices can we hack together to detect these nasty little tracker chips? There has to be some way to build a receiver similar to whatever the police use to detect the GPS data, attach it to a small wand or golf club or something, and wave it around our car every time we get in it to make sure the trackers are not installed. So, GPS nerds out there, how's about we start putting together a How-To to homebrew a GPS tracker detector? Then, if we find a tracker attached to our vehicle, we can simply pull it off and duct tape it to the local stray cat.
Motorcycles, Robots, Space Gossip and More!
Yet another reason to take the bus or train.
WALSTIB!
an aluminum foil hat was enough. This guy is way ahead of the curve: http://i.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/01407/foil-car_1407008i.jpg
Sorry, but gray text on gray background is making my eyes bleed.
Can anyone link me to the actual decision, particularly the apparently barnburning dissent? Why why why can't mainstream media link to primary documents occasionally?
He should have sued the government for impeding the performance of his vehicle (by adding the weight of the device and also altering the aerodynamics of his car).
If I find such a device on my car, I will either: 1. Smash it into little tiny bits. 2. Attach it to another car at random. 3. Call the bomb squad an tell them that there is something suspicious on my car that I did not put there. 4. Ignore it. 5. Ebay, baby! Track that mother fuckers!
Why is it that most of the people that I encounter seem to have been shat from the Sphincter of Mediocrity?
If I find one of these on my car, it's mine! I can take a hammer to it; or better yet, I can stick it onto a taxicab and laugh out loud while I'm imagining the police scratching their heads and muttering "What the fuck?".
'The Economy' is a giant Ponzi scheme whose most pitiable suckers are the youngest among us and the yet-unborn.
Aside from using a technological tracker, this doesn't seem like it's any more an infringement of privacy than simply having the police follow you everywhere you go. Which they also do not need a warrant to do. Now, to attach a tracker to a car sitting in a driveway would be trespassing... unless the car was parked on a public street, or inside a garage.
This has already been circumvented.
So the cops are going after lay citizens and stupid crooks, a fair number of which really do deserve to be caught.
Who else immediately thought "Ben Stiller Show"? ...the one where they parody Mutual of Omaha's Wild Kingdom, and tranquilize "a typical North American Street Bum", and ``Jim'' proceeds to attach "a harmless radio collar", which is actually a huge roll of copper wire. The bum revives, and staggers off under the wight of the roll of wire "completely unharmed, and none the worse for wear".
Wish I could find a link to the video for this... it was hilarious.
-- Terry
How would attaching a GPS to somebody's else's car not be considered vandalism?
Without something I could only presume is magic, there's no way they can be assured that it can't possibly damage the surface it's put on, hence... vandalism.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
There's an important distinction here which isn't mentioned above.
From the look of it, they didn't declare that it's explicitly allowed by law, they only declared that it's not prohibited by law under the fourth amendment. IANAL, but that sounds like we're in a much better situation in terms of fighting this than we could be.
This is why most small GPS and cell phone jammers come with cigarette lighter plugins, so they can live in your car. If you want to take a private trip (and not have access to your own GPS or cell phone of course) you may want to invest in one of these (easier than crawling under your car and inspecting it every time you want to go do something. Or so I read in a magazine. http://www.dealextreme.com/search.dx/search.portable%20jammer.
This is just the modern day equivalent to them tailing a person. They used to have to sit in a car, wait for the person to go somewhere and follow them hoping they don't get noticed. Now they just tack a gps transmitter to the car. I don't see how this is any more of a problem than tailing was/is.
Attaching a GPS to my car increases its mass. By the laws of physics, this means it takes more energy to move the car. This means it consumes more gasoline. Since I pay by the gallon, attaching the GPS costs me money.
The Takings Clause therefore requires the government to compensate me, right?
I moved to Europe from the US about 3 months ago and I don't miss the US one bit.
This type of crap would not fly here.
While the act of attaching a tracker to a car can conceivably be seen as different from conducting a search, the act of retrieving data from the device -- locally or remotely -- may reasonably be considered a search in the same way that looking at the files on a person's computer by installing spyware may be considered a search.
"In prison you just have to shut your eyes and take it. Here you have to shut your eyes and give it."
...GPS tracks you.
Complaining about police entering a driveway without a warrant to place a tracking device is only part of the concern. If driveways were off limits, then regardless what the Judge said about the class divide, they could wait till you drive to and park in a generally public place that is not your property and place the tracking device on the car there. The tracking of the car or any other mode of tracking without a warrant is the biggest concern here.
Ehm we gave up that right when assaulting a government official became a more serious crime than assaulting an adult male. Any time you start having special treatment via the laws, society is headed rapidly to classification and the split between the ruled and the rulers.
to attach device? or to ensure the device is not removed?
you have to believe they'll fully cover themselves, here. its probably not just the right to attach but also the right you have to inspect your car and remove unauthorized items from it!
this is fraught with problems. how am I to know that this is a cop-box (as I call it) and not some terr-a-wrist(tm) box? any box that I did not put on my car is a 'trouble box' and should be removed. I have no idea what the heck its doing. could even be a bomb! why would I even be expected to tolerate such a thing?
what if my car has some wireless gear on it (say something that goes from trunk to hood and I didn't want to run cables so I did a wireless link) and suppose their transmitter interferes with my units operation? that's willful interference! suppose it fucked with a safety or security system I installed?
only an idiot would allow such a law!
yes, yes, I know. I fully know who buys and pays for our laws these days.
--
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
My car is personal property according to the state, because I pay personal property taxes on it. So aren't they vandalizing my personal property by attaching their crap to it?
Another question: if I find such a device on my vehicle, am I within my rights to destroy it?
Jhyrryl
In another court, earlier this month, they decided that GPS tracking without a search warrant was an invasion of privacy and a verdict was overturned due to it.
http://www.lawyers.com/our-blog/archives/305-Tracking-Suspect-with-GPS-Ruled-Illegal-Search.html
Since I haven't seen this link yet, here's a link to the coverage area of the 9th Circuit for those who might be interested. http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/content/view.php?pk_id=0000000135
Justify my text? I'm sorry, but it has no excuse.
Install an EMF emitter on the vehicle. This should block any GPS tracking in addition to disabling the
mobile GHETTO BLASTERS behind and beside your vehicle.
Yours In Chicago,
K. Trout
I heard something along this line a while ago when a reporter wasn't trespassing on a property because the sidewalk to the house was considered an extension of the sidewalk along the street. Could the driveway be in this same subject area? I would say yes. Then that would mean that I would take out a strip of my driveway and sidewalk if they touched public land/pavement and post a single sign stating no trespassing. There is no connection to the public property by extension and to get to MY sidewalk or driveway a person would have to cross my land first. I am at odds with part of this solution as I always thought that a sign was never needed to declare private property. I can't recall the actual case of the reporter but it all sounds good. Then again nothing that sounds good ever flies very far in the courts of today. Then again there are no "real" courts around today so anything goes I guess.
I also have the right to blow the kneecaps off anyone climbing under my car in the middle of the night. As far as I know, they're planting a bomb. I wish the detectives luck in their endeavors.
preferably someone in government, even a bus. Then again, a long haul truck would be great fun.
The question is, can they then prosecute you with tampering with federal property? I bet they would try.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
Police can do things the 'old way' - Drive around all day long tailing someone, or the 'new way' - via GPS. It's still stealthily tracking someone, just with a modern spin.
True, but irrelevant. A similar argument is made about the Second Amendment, there was a time when it took a minute to reload a rifle, today it takes a few seconds to empty a twenty bullet magazine and reload.
Technology should not change a fundamental right.
I heard the following argument once: someone said that the internet should be censored because it's too easy to publish on the internet. Freedom of expression, the argument went, was meant for an age when only responsible journalists published things.
I think the solution is not to limit the powers of the police but to let citizens use the same technology to fight corruption. Wikileaks is a great example of how this can be done. We should have wikileaks at every town, every neighborhood. Let all citizens keep track of police officers, politicians, judges, public servants and let's see what happens then.
Depends on the situation, a crime in progress, but yes, it is possible. It is even more possible if you are a bona fide bond agent or "bounty hunter". I know a few people who are, and they have much less restrictions than you might think.
Now most people don't do anything like that, but it is possible and legal in a lot of situations.
So the police can put a GPS trackers on the judge's vehicles without a warrant? Let's get those rolled out today.....and tomorrow you'll have a different decision.
So what happens the first time a citizen attaches a GPS tracker to the judge's vehicle and tracks it?
Stories like this just serve to make you believe this is some kind of rare thing that happens to people actually committing crimes. Run a Google search for "Targeted Individual" or "Gang Stalking" and wake up to the reality of life in the western world 2010.
you think some stranger just stopped by and decided to change your air filter? Any reasonable person could/should assume the guy is looking to steal your car/stereo/battery/etc.
I don't think you should be able to no-questions-asked shoot someone for threatening your property, but if that isn't an overt threat to cause imminent harm to your car, nothing is.
Ars Technica covers a story about cops needing a warrant in DC.
Slashdot's rate-of-post filter: Preventing you from posting too many great ideas at once.
Do devices exist that would permit someone to detect if a GPS has been added to a vehicle, items of clothing, luggage, packpack, etc.? Seems as if the police have created a new market here.
I've heard of wives and husbands placing such devices with loggers on each other's cars to try to catch instances of infidelity and in cases where corporations are spying on one another, but clearly serious freedoms, lives and property are at stake if the government or anyone else readily begin to monitor people's location in real time with GPS, as such an ability would make it easy for criminals to break in to a home, if they new the owners were not there.
Anybody consider that *every* car sold in america already has a gps chip tied to a transmitter? (if not, they probably will soon enough!)
So *that's* why the engine computer is in a sealed box that cannot be opened!
"Boy everyone in this country is running around yammering about their fucking rights. "I have a right, you have no right, we have a right."
Folks I hate to spoil your fun, but... there's no such thing as rights. They're imaginary. We made 'em up. Like the boogie man. Like Three Little Pigs, Pinocio, Mother Goose, shit like that. Rights are an idea. They're just imaginary. They're a cute idea. Cute. But that's all. Cute...and fictional. But if you think you do have rights, let me ask you this, "where do they come from?" People say, "They come from God. They're God given rights." Awww fuck, here we go again...here we go again.
The God excuse, the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument, "It came from God." Anything we can't describe must have come from God. Personally folks, I believe that if your rights came from God, he would've given you the right for some food every day, and he would've given you the right to a roof over your head. GOD would've been looking out for ya. You know that.
He wouldn't have been worried making sure you have a gun so you can get drunk on Sunday night and kill your girlfriend's parents.
But let's say it's true. Let's say that God gave us these rights. Why would he give us a certain number of rights?
The Bill of Rights of this country has 10 stipulations. OK...10 rights. And apparently God was doing sloppy work that week, because we've had to ammend the bill of rights an additional 17 times. So God forgot a couple of things, like...SLAVERY. Just fuckin' slipped his mind.
But let's say...let's say God gave us the original 10. He gave the british 13. The british Bill of Rights has 13 stipulations. The Germans have 29, the Belgians have 25, the Sweedish have only 6, and some people in the world have no rights at all. What kind of a fuckin' god damn god given deal is that!?...NO RIGHTS AT ALL!? Why would God give different people in different countries a different numbers of different rights? Boredom? Amusement? Bad arithmetic? Do we find out at long last after all this time that God is weak in math skills? Doesn't sound like divine planning to me. Sounds more like human planning . Sounds more like one group trying to control another group. In other words...business as usual in America.
Now, if you think you do have rights, I have one last assignment for ya. Next time you're at the computer get on the Internet, go to Wikipedia. When you get to Wikipedia, in the search field for Wikipedia, i want to type in, "Japanese-Americans 1942 and you'll find out all about your precious fucking rights. Alright. You know about it.
In 1942 there were 110,000 Japanese-American citizens, in good standing, law abiding people, who were thrown into internment camps simply because their parents were born in the wrong country. That's all they did wrong. They had no right to a lawyer, no right to a fair trial, no right to a jury of their peers, no right to due process of any kind. The only right they had was...right this way! Into the internment camps.
Just when these American citizens needed their rights the most...their government took them away. and rights aren't rights if someone can take em away. They're priveledges. That's all we've ever had in this country is a bill of TEMPORARY priviledges; and if you read the news, even badly, you know the list get's shorter, and shorter, and shorter.
Yeup, sooner or later the people in this country are going to realize the government doesn't give a fuck about them. the government doesn't care about you, or your children, or your rights, or your welfare or your safety. it simply doesn't give a fuck about you. It's interested in it's own power. That's the only thing...keeping it, and expanding wherever possible.
Personally when it comes to rights, I think one of two things is true: either we have unlimited rights, or we have no rights at all."
- George Carlin
OR... Just watch it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWiBt-pqp0E :)
Should we be then arresting the average person who puts GPS devices on someone's vehicle? If so, what is their crime? And don't just spit out some legal term, explain how it is actually a crime. What, you mean someone knew where you were? There is no crime if we live in a free country. Do we arrest private investigators who tail people in cars to see where they go throughout the day?
You all talk about freedom and rights, what a bunch of hypocrites you all are. We don't live in a free country if we arrest people for doing something with no evidence of malicious intent.
... when their GPS devices can already tell if you're speeding?
Check your premises.
Let me get this straight....
They can put a GPS device on your car, but what about your body? Both are private are they not? Why is a car which is private property, any different than your personal body.
Shouldnt the cops have the right to now put a GPS on your body when you have done nothing illegal?
If they're going to violate private property, it might as well include ALL of your private property.... your body, your car, your house, your phone, your children, your dog.
Buy your guns folks, while you still can. This country is going to shit.
shoot first, ask questions later
... buy a bicycle
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VHF in general, and 148-152 MHz in particular, is most certainly NOT unregulated!
WTF is so hard about a warrant? I don't get it. The whole purpose of a warrant is permission to surveil, among others. Should it not be REASONABLE to ask a judge for permission to invade your private property? I'm ALL FOR the use of these if you GET A FUCKING WARRANT. Follow the damn Constitution!
FYI -
It is against the law to jam GPS or intentionally radiate without an licensed operator. Ask your local hams....also most GPS trackers operate on the cell bands.
Do not jam cell bands
http://www.fcc.gov/eb/FieldNotices/2003/DOC-300634A1.html
Do not jam GPS
http://www.fcc.gov/eb/FieldNotices/2003/DOC-298353A1.html
Great opportunity to manufacture and sell giant tin foil hats for cars.
"The Ninth Circuit court has declared that attaching a GPS tracker to your car, as it sits in your driveway, or, by extension on a public street, and then using it to monitor every one of your movements, is totally legal, and can be performed by the police without needing a warrant."
This sentence can be split like this:
The Ninth Circuit court has declared that attaching a GPS tracker to your car, as it sits in your driveway, or, by extension on a public street, and then using it to monitor every one of your movements, is totally legal.
And it can be performed by the police without needing a warrant.
So, you can do it yourself.
You must be talking about the US Senate.
Because a government that can search any person at any time can incriminate anyone it wants.
"During a routine anti-terrorism sweep, civil liberties activist John Doe was found to be in possession of methamphetamine, child pornography, concealed weapons, and pirated ABBA songs. He was immediately taken into custody and is being held at an undisclosed location for the public's safety..."
Right now we have an important check in the form of a search warrant. Before searching me, a law enforcement agent must demonstrate to a judge probable cause that I have committed, or will commit, a crime. It's not perfect, and there are notable loopholes, but at least there is some documentation and accountability.
Cynicism, like dogmatism, can be an excuse for intellectual laziness. - Susan Shirk
With this ruling, soon, everyone will have their own personal GPS... ;)
Check your premises.
Get off your philosophical hobby horse. Societies everywhere are replete with instances of people having special privileges under the law. It permits them to do their job. However, in free society there need to be some limits that make sense so that society can continue to function effectively and hopefully fairly.
If I were a cop, I would not want to allow trespass to be permitted to catch criminals. Not because it doesn't make the job harder, certainly it would, bur rather it breeds further contempt and disrespect for the law that could at some point get policemen killed unnecessarily. If they had reasonable suspicion that this guy was a drug dealer it wouldn't have been all that difficult to obtain a warrant. They could have tailed the guy to get the evidence they needed but evidently political decisions were made to expand what is permissible police actions. Now we are just one step closer to a police state that will ultimately only increase disrespect for the police.
If I see one, I'll just remove it, plant it on some random pizza delivery vehicle, and move on with my life.
I'm not sure if they have two crazy judges and one sane one or if they are just nuts at different times but when they are split on an issue, more often than not the SC overrules them. That says something :P
A: http://www.sons-of-liberty.net/
The answer to 1984 is 1776.
Who are these judges? What are their names? Where do they live?
Can we just start, you know... ...following them a around?
Just, you know... ...to see what they're doing?
If the plastic contained an embedded cooper wire mesh it would effectively block transmissions, but it might make it rather easy for the police to spot your car. However, if it were built into the body or fiberglassed into the paint job drug dealers everywhere would rush to buy one.
What about stealing them? You could have a listener, and find said devices wherever.. Then poof, you have them tracking someone else. Keep it charged and transmitting, it might be a bit obnoxious after 50 or so go online.
Storm
After reading TFA, it appears that this comes down to "If you have enough money for a gated property, you're safe from this un-Constitutional intrusion".
So I would suggest that a business opportunity exists here: All you have to do is to make a portable "security fence" with a sign that says "Keep Out! Private Property!" for use around cars.
Market it as a "Pigpen", perhaps.
Orwell: "In a Time of Universal Deceit, telling the Truth is a Revolutionary Act"
He's right in general. Police only have special powers if said special powers are granted to them. There are some that are. One of the big ones is the ability to arrest people for misdemeanors, or for suspicion of a crime. Citizens can only arrest people if they witness them committing a felony. However you find that all police powers either are powers normal citizens have, or flow from special laws. For example police don't need a warrant to covertly watch you in a bar because a normal citizen doesn't either. Police do need a warrant to enter your house because nobody is allowed to enter with out permission. It either has to be permission granted by you, or by a court. They have a special law that lets them get permission, in certain circumstances.
However, there doesn't seem to be any law allowing them to install GPS units on cars without a warrant. They maintain they don't need permission of any sort (hence the no warrant). Ok but if that's the case and there isn't a specific law for it, that means ANYONE can do that. It means that cars aren't considered private and attaching a tracking device is a-ok, be you police, private detective, or J. Random Guy.
THAT is what is being argued here, and is quite a legit argument. If police needed a warrant, that would clear everything up. Tracking someone's car would be illegal without permission. That would have to come from the owner, or from the court. No problem, same as all kinds of other shit that needs warrants. However in the event of no warrant, well then that means it is just legal for anyone to do. They'd have to pass a law making it illegal for someone to do that.
The US is a "legal by default" nation. Unless there's a law saying you can't, then you can.
Uhhh...all I have to say is...WOW.
So, in the near future, are all cars going to come standard with these GPS devices? GPS tracking not only gives authorities your position but it gives them your change in position as well (speed). So, based on where you are and the speed you're going, are they going to be sending us speeding tickets in the mail???
This is complete bullshit. Europe is sounding better and better every day.
http://www.lightinthebox.com/Advanced-Portable-GPS-Signal-Jammer--SZQ221-_p25163.html
seriously, mine is not the generation to pick a tech fight with...
[RIAA] says its concern is artists. That's true, in just the sense that a cattle rancher is concerned about its cattle.
If you happen to find one of these devices on your car, since the cops didn't need any legal authority to put it there, it must be an unsolicited gift -and there are laws about those already. You're not legally obligated to pay for it, or return it if you don't want it, but it's yours anyway.
So regift it to somebody deserving, like your mayor, or your town garbage truck. Or you could disassemble it and find out how it works, maybe modify it to transmit different data?
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
Legally, it's an unsolicited gift, and if the spammers just hand-delivered it instead of snail-mailing it, well, fine.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
You can't have it open just for police. If the police can plant a bug on my neighbors then why can't I bug my neighbors?
What is so freaking hard about getting a warrant?
First it's this, and next thing you know they'll be mandating gay marriage or something.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
Since it's legal, what's the cheapest gps transmitter you can make that would attach to a police car. Knowing the location of your law enforcement officers at all times could be a huge public benefit - and now it's totally legal.
Law enforcement tracking - there's an app for that!
--edfardos
Hmmm, something botched when I first posted this...
Yeah, those crazy liberals in the 9th circuit - next thing you know they'll be mandating gay marriage for everybody and webcams in the bedroom.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
1. Check your car
2. if you find a GPS unit, it's yours!
3. Sell it on ebay
4. enjoy profits
Repeat
I wonder what event will trigger people to really, wake up and stop this crap.
Little girls who can't have a lemonade stand, not because it isn't safe, but because the industrial foods monopoly in this country doesn't want anyone to supply water or food unless you buy it from them, with the argument only they can provide safe food.
Yes, you can apparently dump millions of eggs on the market and that is "OK", but a little girl on the corner is a big problem.
Does anyone see what is happening here?
Is anyone awake?
-Hack
Got Geometrodynamics? Awe, too hard to figure out? Too bad.
Once you are outside of your dwelling, you have no "reasonable expectation of privacy." Just try some nude sun bathing on your front lawn tomorrow and see whether claiming a "reasonable expectation of privacy" works as a defense. Better yet, try a little lascivious romp with the spouse or significant other and see how much privacy you have.
Cheers,
Dave
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither safety nor liberty.
Ben
Prior to the advent of small GPS tracking systems, the police did not need a warrant to put you under surveillance and follow you using human beings known as police officers. All this ruling means is that the police can now perform the same function more efficiently using an electronic device. No one has any expectation of privacy except within their own home.
Cheers,
Dave
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither safety nor liberty.
Ben
The police, or anyone else, have every right to follow my movements as I travel through public property. But no one has a right to install a device on my vehicle without my consent, whether it's parked on my driveway or on a city street. If this stands, what's to keep police from installing bugs in my house to monitor my conversations? We're starting down a very slippery slope, the SCOTUS needs to put the kibosh on this crap ASAP. Thanks again, War On Drugs!!!
Never let a lack of data get in the way of a good rant.
Where do they mount them on the car? All my my GPS devices need a clear line of sight to the sky in order to work, even tree cover is enough to block the signal, so I don't see how the device can be mounted under the car and still operate? If they do need to be mounted with at least a small patch antenna with visibility to the sky, it seems that would make them easier to detect.
I'll just use my other car.
I am anarch of all I survey.
I agree, GPS eats batteries to a degree I cannot comprehend. I kind of know what is going on in there (a lot) and it still surprises me how much juice they eat.
I also agree the math doesn't work, furthermore I cannot understand how you would fit a lat and long in 8 bytes without losing significant precision from the actual GPS measurement, though it might be "good 'nuff"
I disagree on the cell usage, cellular is not free (or even cheap), not even to the police. I think free VHF is superior, especially to a local department that has repeaters set up in the same band for police radios. However VHF would up the power requirements I think.
But I do hope they try and track me, that sound like a cool toy giveaway.
refactor the law, its bloated, confusing and unmaintainable.
However the USA's Founding Fathers had a serious distrust of government and meant it to answer to the citizens. That is why the Bill of Rights includes stuff such as Freedom of Speech, Assembly, and protest. And it is why the Second Amendment, the right to bare arms, is included. No matter how many other rights there are if a population is unarmed it effectively has no rights but what the government grants the public.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
Use the GPS for a carputer or something, and detach the uplink (assuming it has one) and pretend to be the GPS module feeding in bogus locations. Drive circles around Hawaii, pentagrams over the Louvre etc. Or have it spell out the entire text of your favorite novel across the continent. That is if the datalink is VHF, if its actually cell-based.... Free internet! Or not, that would probably lead to meeting a hairy cellmate.
refactor the law, its bloated, confusing and unmaintainable.
Can someone point us to plans to build simple, cheap GPS tracker scanners so we can check our vehicles, and cheap, simple GPS jammers?
Point us to places that sell this stuff?
Point us to plans for EMP guns to incapacitate these devices without toasting our vehicles?
Plans to secure our property? (alarm systems)
wake up and hold your nose
2. Attach it to another car at random
It's a roll of the dice.
Should anything happen to that car, its driver or passengers, the GPS will lead the police straight back to you.
The least worst outcome is that you will have earned a reputation as an all-around "wise ass." Not a good place to be if you have been tentatively cast as the lead in a felony investigation.
attach the GPS unit to another vehicle. A bus? Your neighbor's car?
Provided a GPS unit is found that's a great idea. Then again who's going to spend tyme scanning for one?
Perhaps a drive-through car wash can be set up for that ;-) Clean the car of dirt and more dirt.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
They are becoming ultimately predictable, and it seems to me that ultimately free people get the government they deserve.
Honorable [sec] Alex Kozinski
125 S Grand Ave,
Pasadena, CA 91105.
"Unpublished 626-229-1300. 626) 229-1300
(626) 229-7150
http://maps.google.cz/maps?oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox&um=1&ie=UTF-8&q=%22Alex+Kozinski%22+pasadena+ca&fb=1&gl=cz&hq=%22Alex+Kozinski%22&hnear=Pasadena,+CA,+USA&cid=0,0,1064814430869621964&ei=otx1TLOvDYmlOO7p4ZYG&sa=X&oi=local_result&ct=image&resnum=1&ved=0CBYQnwIwAA
I guess cops sneaking around at night and sticking things to your vehicle looks creepy, but they can already get your location history from your cell provider. If I wanted to keep my physical location info private, turning off my cell radio would be a good first step.
That's only true if the cellphone/service is in the users name. Anyone can go to Best Buy, Radio Shack, or Walmart and buy prepaid cellphones with cash and without giving a name. Heck, a person could even pay someone to buy one for them. Pick any bum off the street to do it. Or buy a bunch and hand them out keeping one for personal use.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
I warned all of you about this when they ran the "cash for clunkers" program! I told you all then that the GPS devices in any newer model vehicles would eventually be used to track you. Everyone seems to be under the assumption that the devices that will be used to track you would be some discreet device implanted on your vehicle "after" some policing body decided they wanted to track you. NAY! The device that came standard in the vehicle you traded for is the same one they intend to track you with. The device ID is probably associated with the VIN# in some data base. All they will need to do is to look up your vehicle registration, get the VIN# of your vehicle, run it through the GPS database and bam...tracking your vehicle's location anywhere on the planet.
-Oz
The 9th circuit is often considered "liberal." I think this ruling shows that the word "liberal" has changed over the years from "liberty from government oppression" to "use government to achieve a progressive agenda." If it's "for the good of the citizens," apparently, anything goes.
Currently hooked on AMP
That is act 2 of this little parody called "Track the Planet". Right now they are just trying to establish that they have the legal right to track you via GPS without your knowledge, a reason, or a warrant. Next will be a right to implant one in your body under the same auspices, and the grand finale will be a legal REQUIREMENT that you are implanted with a GPS-type tracking device at in utero or at birth...Stay tuned!
-Oz
This is just an excuse so police can have full time access to your cars computers. Baby steps to full control of your cars.
I have a family that is full of mechanics. Several of use regularly drive no less then four cars on any given day. I wonder if the police really have that many of these devices to deploy and monitor. I also regularly swap out cars since at any given time half of my land-fleet is broken down or not road worthy for some reason. Are they going to bug the cars of just about everyone I know just to follow me around? Just a thought...
you don't eat crackers in the bed of your future--or else you'll get all scratchy
Yep, was thinking that this will be a big boon to the GPS tracking community. Unfortunately, that cops will probably be able to use AGPS as well, which means you'd have to block your cell phone signal. If you're actually in need of a device like this, then there's a really good chance that you probably need to use your phone (probably a tosser) to arrange where you're trying to get away to, book plane tickets, etc... so, you're kinda screwed then. And as a thought, the tracker is probably GSM based anyway, so AGPS would be a much cheaper solution for cops tracking more than one "perp".
Besides, the link you pointed us to is kinda cool, but the prices are obscene. GPS is really easy to block, so it shouldn't take more than a $20 frequency generator with a shit load of bleed. An old CB radio almost certainly can be modified to do this and that would cost nearly nothing.
I don't know if the technology exists and is available to the general public, but wouldn't an EMP solve the problem fast and efficiently? - Unplug the car battery so everything that's supposed to be in the car goes dead (and remove cellphones, MP3-players etc.) and then give it a good EMP blast (leave all the doors open to avoid Faraday Cage effects). Self-contained GPS modules hidden inside or outside will be fried quickly and efficiently while the car isn't damaged at all. So not only do you stop the tracking but you also 'break' their toy, thus limiting their snooping a little bit in general.
I know of GPS receivers that can be programmed for a refresh rate up to 10 times per second and they are freely available at least in Germany (cost a bundle, though). Also, for most uses 1 per second is fast enough unless you need to track high speed vehicles to a metre.
The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all.
(H. L. Mencken)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H._L._Mencken
With the first link, the chain is forged.
It really doesn't matter. If I want to follow someone, I can, up until the time I'm trespassing (venturing into the driveway to attach the device might apply here).
Polite? Probably not. Illegal? No. Using a tool to assist with trailing someone must also be legal, we use tools to help us all the time.
All this will do is lower the cost of anti-surveillance technology (more tools to help the other side's trail remain hidden). Perhaps GM's latest "premium" accessory will be a scrambler. That helps the economy, right?
Everyone is talking about a police officer strolling up your driveway and physically sticking a black box to your car.
Could be more sinister than that. Most people have cell phones these days, and that number is increasing. Most have GPS capabilities or will soon. What if this decision simply allows the police to force the telco to simply toggle your cell GPS at will? They could track anyone they please without having to lift a finger.
Can't have PETA showing up (unless it is those nekkid gurl protesters all decked out in animal body paint...)
Helium balloon for the GPS bug tracker spoofing win!
If you find a device then put it on someone else's car. This would create reasonable doubt.
So, what would be the easiest way to detect when such a device has been attached to your vehicle? And what sort of things could you do with it once found so you could re-purpose it for your own uses? (Assuming you don't just stick it to a garbage truck, or to a private vehicle belonging to the Chief of Police.)
How does this ruling and the Washington State Supreme Court's 2003 ruling requiring a warrant affect each other?
i'd hit it so hard, if you pulled me out you'd be the king of britain [bash.org]
Indeed, especially if you put it on your neighbour's car. They could easily have made that sort of mistake when attaching it to your car.
Yeah, I hope these things GPS trackers are cheap - I'll provide local towns service putting GPS on all the police cars and charging for detection. Talk about new markets! Track your girlfriend, track your husband, track your boss! This is GREAT!