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New Legislation Would Crack Down On Online Piracy

GovTechGuy writes "Members of the Senate Judiciary Committee unveiled new legislation to combat online piracy on Monday that gives the Department of Justice more power to shut down websites trafficking in pirated movies, films or counterfeit goods. The new bill would give the government the authority to shut down the sites with a court order; the site owner would have to petition the court to have it lifted. The judge would have final say over whether a site should be shut down or not. Business groups including the US Chamber of Commerce hailed the legislation as a huge step forward."

350 comments

  1. Bye Bye EBAY by vlm · · Score: 4, Funny

    shut down websites trafficking in ... counterfeit goods

    Bye Bye EBAY, and good riddance

    --
    "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    1. Re:Bye Bye EBAY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The government isnt going to shut down sites backed by the almighty $$$

      But your movie blog is gone the first time you give a bad review.

      Your political forum is shut down the first time some kid quotes 1984.

      Etc, etc..

    2. Re:Bye Bye EBAY by houstonbofh · · Score: 2, Insightful

      No, they will just move overseas like everyone else. Get used to changing .com to .se or .es over the next few years...

    3. Re:Bye Bye EBAY by sarx · · Score: 2, Insightful

      But your movie blog is gone the first time you give a bad review.

      Your political forum is shut down the first time some kid quotes 1984.

      Etc, etc..

      Do you have any evidence of this? I don't see how it follows from the article, so it sounds like paranoia, and I'll regard it as such until I have any evidence at all to back it up.

    4. Re:Bye Bye EBAY by EdIII · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Yes.......... but how?

      When a website is "taken down" on a U.S based server that does not mean it is dead. Far from it. What happened was the hosting company shut it down due the court order. There are some hosting companies that will refuse based on principles.

      Now let's say that the site owner is risking contempt of court if they move the website out of the U.S jurisdiction. Maybe they will get the site started up under somebody else? Sell all the corporate assets to a foreign company for $1.

      I guess what I am getting at, is that shutting down a website has not been incredibly effective when the principles involved and hosting is not inside the U.S. Just how long will it take before the Justice Department can get a court order to interfere with the DNS records of allegedly infringing websites?

      Manipulation and control over the DNS is what is ultimately required to do anything effective. This law will just drive all the businesses outside of the U.S, just like the DMCA has driven a lot of businesses outside as well.

      It will be DNS too, since the Great Firewall of Freedom will be more expensive then the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan combined and even less effective.

      Talk about a wonderful day for hosting providers huh?

    5. Re:Bye Bye EBAY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Since it's not even a law, obviously, there is no evidence to support any of the GP's claims. And yes, it's just paranoia. You can trust the government. It has never let you down, right? Any dissenters should be put in jail anyways.

    6. Re:Bye Bye EBAY by Thinboy00 · · Score: 1

      A court order only happens if a judge signs off on it. Unless they tell the judge outright lies, what (American) judge on the face of the Earth would shut down a political forum?

      --
      $ make available
    7. Re:Bye Bye EBAY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Different AC here...

      Are you saying you can't envision a scenario where a law is used as carte blanche for censoring speech, shutting down competitors, and generally being a nuisance?

      Become familiar with DMCA takedown notices, for starters.

    8. Re:Bye Bye EBAY by c6gunner · · Score: 2, Funny

      Do you have any evidence of this?

      You must be new here ....

    9. Re:Bye Bye EBAY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      See how fast they work, they have already taken all the evidence offline. That is the evidence. As long as you can't find any evidence of this then it must be true.

      In all seriousness though, ebay isn't going to come under any scrutiny over this, even though they account for at least 90% of commercial counterfeit trade.

    10. Re:Bye Bye EBAY by king+neckbeard · · Score: 1

      Perhaps one in east Texas?

      --
      This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
    11. Re:Bye Bye EBAY by mr_mischief · · Score: 1

      What judge in his right mind would think an injunction against making a living without due process is constitutional in the first place? The accused has an inalienable right to face his accusers, answer the accusations, and present evidence for his own defense.

    12. Re:Bye Bye EBAY by Lumpy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      sorry, you did not read the bill. It has a special section that exempts rich people and corporations that fund reelection campaigns.

      If you make less than $250,000.00 a year you are one of the dirty disgusting thieves that needs a good water-boarding at gitmo to teach you your place. Everyone else is the holy ones that only make innocent mistakes.

      Ebay will never be shut down even if they start trafficking stolen organs. They have enough money to pay the police to look the other way.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    13. Re:Bye Bye EBAY by Lumpy · · Score: 2, Informative

      There are a large number of outright bought or party line judges. Texas is full of horrible evil judges. There are plenty elsewhere in the country as well.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    14. Re:Bye Bye EBAY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you have any evidence of this? I don't see how it follows from the article, so it sounds like paranoia, and I'll regard it as such until I have any evidence at all to back it up.

      You mean aside from the fact that it has happens that way every time they pass one of these. You can't even make a downfall parody without a DMCA take down. Now they'll just toss you off line and require you to hire a lawyer (for which you will not be compensated) to prove fair use.
      They are abusing what authority they have now, it would be delusional to believe they won't do so in the future with stronger laws.

    15. Re:Bye Bye EBAY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You must be new here. This has been discussed 1000 times before on slashdot. Politicians will introduce legislation that will appeal to most people on a common sense level. I'll illustrate it for you. "We will have the authority to shut down any web site involved in piracy" will quickly become "We now have the authority to shut down any web site reported as being involved in piracy" which will quickly be used by political powers to post a single link in the comments section to pirated software in order to shut down a web site they disagree with. Although my example is horrible, it comes down to the "Slippery Slope" argument. Look it up because it is very real and very pertinent, almost a necessary principle, to the creation of new laws (and why most laws repealed today were created with the same logic we see here).

    16. Re:Bye Bye EBAY by HungryHobo · · Score: 1

      .com isn't specifically american.

    17. Re:Bye Bye EBAY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Speak for yourself. I buy a lot of stuff on eBay. It's a great marketplace. If you suck so bad at life that eBay is a problem for you, please just stay away and don't ruin it for the rest of us.

    18. Re:Bye Bye EBAY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've seen this happen on YouTube. Remember Scientology issuing DMCA notices against videos of anti-Scientology protests?

    19. Re:Bye Bye EBAY by TooMuchToDo · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I own a small hosting company. We have operations in the US, Europe, and Asia. Each operation is owned by a seperate corporate entity. Chance favors the prepared.

    20. Re:Bye Bye EBAY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are a large number of outright bought or party line judges. Texas is full of horrible evil judges. There are plenty elsewhere in the country as well.

      What, man? Hehehe... oh you must be joking! That's it! Just a bad joke! Really that's all it is! Sorry won't happen again!

      Geez man! Do you want one of those guys to shut down /. ? ;c)

    21. Re:Bye Bye EBAY by Burz · · Score: 1

      Yeah, DNS is the lynchpin. And I gotta wonder to what extent DNSSEC consolidates lockstep control over DNS servers.

      I2P does not have a DNS system per se (its more of an informal lookup table where you can specify the source), and the hard numeric addresses are actually crypto keys identifying their respective nodes. While the former can be censored or otherwise messed with, the latter is un-censorable.

    22. Re:Bye Bye EBAY by cjb658 · · Score: 1

      You know what they say about censorship: the internet just routes around it.

    23. Re:Bye Bye EBAY by halowolf · · Score: 1

      And thats the reason why I don't buy anything from Hong Kong or Asia in general from eBay.

    24. Re:Bye Bye EBAY by halowolf · · Score: 1

      But there is a cultural perception that it is.

    25. Re:Bye Bye EBAY by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      To some extent, yes. Censorship on the internet is possible - it just takes a lot of effort, and a lot of money. For it to be properly effective it requires infrastructure changes too - either built in from the start like China, or added later by legally compelling ISPs to install it.

    26. Re:Bye Bye EBAY by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      Just go judge-shopping. Standard legal trick - look for one who has a history of voteing the way you want in similar cases, then play with timeings and postponements until you get one of those.

    27. Re:Bye Bye EBAY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      lol what bullshit.
      This will be used to shut down the blatant pirate blogs and forums that people like you define as 'your rights online'
      stick your sense of entitlement up your ass you thieving hippie.

    28. Re:Bye Bye EBAY by lordmatrix · · Score: 1

      Both .com and .net TLDs are controlled/hosted by Verisign, a US company.

    29. Re:Bye Bye EBAY by Joebert · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Do you have any evidence of this? I don't see how it follows from the article, so it sounds like paranoia, and I'll regard it as such until I have any evidence at all to back it up.

      Well, when you decide to pull your head out of your ass give me a holler. I'll take a walk with you so you can see how the world is run by cash.

      --
      Wanna fight ? Bend over, stick your head up your ass, and fight for air.
    30. Re:Bye Bye EBAY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      cunnilingus.

    31. Re:Bye Bye EBAY by FrellMeDead · · Score: 1

      Safe Harbors law protect ebay and such from being shut down/held responsible for others actions. Been this way for awhile so I don't think it will change without a major fight from every single ISP, company, etc that provides services/products online, etc.

    32. Re:Bye Bye EBAY by freedom_india · · Score: 2, Informative

      Safe Harbor protects large corporates. Only.

      --
      "Doing what i can, with what i have." ~ Burt Gummer
    33. Re:Bye Bye EBAY by hyperlinx · · Score: 0, Troll

      Actually, I think you're kinda new here.

      --
      In /.space, no one can hear you SCREAM!
    34. Re:Bye Bye EBAY by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      But your movie blog is gone the first time you give a bad review.

      If by "bad review" you mean "a link to the Illegal Downloads portion of your website", then I supose that might be true.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    35. Re:Bye Bye EBAY by IndustrialComplex · · Score: 1

      Do you have any evidence of this? I don't see how it follows from the article, so it sounds like paranoia, and I'll regard it as such until I have any evidence at all to back it up.

      If you grant them the power to do it, they will. It's the law. If the answer to the question, 'Can they abuse this?' is ever yes, then the next question you have to ask is 'When will it inevitably happen?'

      Evidence... yes, let's see here. Ahh yes, here we are: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History

      If you need an absolutely absurd example to prove the point: A girl had her phone illegaly searched. Nude (actually, I don't even know if they were nude) photos were found. These photos were never distributed. The prosecutor tried MULTIPLE times to charge her with a crime for possession of pornography of herself.

      --
      Out of modpoints but really liked a post? 1BDkF6TtmmeZ3yqXbz9yhdYVqRYnwFoXDj
    36. Re:Bye Bye EBAY by IndustrialComplex · · Score: 1

      Now let's say that the site owner is risking contempt of court if they move the website out of the U.S jurisdiction.

      I wouldn't suggest that. Even if you are being charged with an unconstitutional crime, it IS possible that you could be jailed for contempt of court. It's a weird thing, but as with all things relating to contempt of court, don't risk it.

      --
      Out of modpoints but really liked a post? 1BDkF6TtmmeZ3yqXbz9yhdYVqRYnwFoXDj
    37. Re:Bye Bye EBAY by h00manist · · Score: 1

      The government isnt going to shut down sites backed by the almighty $$$

      But your movie blog is gone the first time you give a bad review.

      Your political forum is shut down the first time some kid quotes 1984.

      Etc, etc..

      Yup, it's the United Secret Services for the Super Rich - USSSR

      --
      Build your own energy sources from scratch. http://otherpower.com/
    38. Re:Bye Bye EBAY by Skal+Tura · · Score: 1

      I've probably bought hundreds of items via eBay from Asia. So far only 2 items has been counterfeit, but even that was made on a real item. In question was a zippo lighter with branding you could say, and it turned out to be a poor fake. The Zippo itself tho wasn't counterfeit, or if it was, pretty much perfect copy.

      Second was emblems for car, when they arrived it was clear they were fakes, but they didn't even try to hide it that they are fakes.

      All other items were as expected. Sometimes they were "copies", ie. 3rd party manufactured parts under their own brand & marketing, meant to replace an original. So not counterfeit, just different after market brand.

      But i've seen plenty of times clear counterfeits trying to be sold, but ironically more often they seem to originate from the US than Asia! Such as "high performance clutches", which were actually repainted OEM clutch :D

    39. Re:Bye Bye EBAY by AtomicJake · · Score: 1

      Do you have any evidence of this?

      Yes. You find evidence in countries who have similar blocking infrastructure for "think of the children" and other reasons; this article incl. comments lists some but not all countries. Note that on all blocking lists which became public, you could also find sites which do not strictly fall under the laws.

    40. Re:Bye Bye EBAY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      if you buy anything electronic, even legitimate, expect it to be counterfeit and/or a cheap clone.

    41. Re:Bye Bye EBAY by mpthompson · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Yeah, DNS is the lynchpin. And I gotta wonder to what extent DNSSEC consolidates lockstep control over DNS servers.

      Well, according to this Wired article, court control of the DNS servers is just about here:

      http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/09/justice-department-piracy/#ixzz10Aeo5Tmt

      Quite frankly, I'm surprised this isn't bigger news here at SlashDot than the originally linked article.

    42. Re:Bye Bye EBAY by BJ_Covert_Action · · Score: 1

      Your political forum is shut down the first time some kid quotes 1984.

      You know I always wondered about this kind of thing with regards to online copyright infringement. I was always taught in school that you could liberally usurp text and pictures from other sources as long as you sourced the original material in an acceptable manner. Does the law support this online? If I quote someone's poem, or if I hijack a picture from someone's website, can I be held liable for infringement if I source the poem or website and the original author/creator? In other words, do all those lessons I learned about plagiarism in school have any bearing on the legal world?

    43. Re:Bye Bye EBAY by Alsee · · Score: 1

      .com isn't specifically american

      From this Wired article:

      "The trafficking of pirated American movies and music from rogue websites outside our borders is a big business," Bainwol said. "This bill is a welcome first step toward cutting off the financial lifeline that sustains these illegal operations and threatens the livelihoods of countless members of the American music community."

      Of course the "illegal operations" of foreign sites completely disregards the actual jurisdiction of other nation's laws and imposes US law on a guilty-until-you-submit-to-US-law-and-prove-yourself-innocent basis.

      Lawmakers introduced legislation Monday that would let the Justice Department seek U.S. court orders against piracy websites anywhere in the world, and shut them down through the sites' domain registration...

      If passed, the Justice Department could ask a federal court for an injunction that would order a U.S. domain registrar or registry to stop resolving an infringing site's domain name, so that visitors to PirateBay.org, for example, would get an error message...

      The bill would direct injunctions at a piracy site's domain registrar, if the registration was through a U.S. company. If not, the Justice Department could serve the court order at the registry for the site's top-level domain. Registry's for the dot-com, dot-net and dot-org domains are all U.S.-based, and thus within the courts' jurisdiction.

      Dot-com, dot-org, dot-net, and any other top level domain hosted in the US would be exploted to impose this US law globally.

      And as if that wasn't bad enough, the law goes on to pull an arguably stupider stunt:

      For domains not under U.S. control, the bill would demand that internet service providers in the United States block resolution of the address upon a court order, but overseas users would not be impacted.

      Moron legislators want to start sending out mandatory filter lists to all US ISPs.

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
    44. Re:Bye Bye EBAY by h00manist · · Score: 1

      You know what they say about censorship: the internet just routes around it.

      Nice to say but not really fact. Around here it is becoming harder to comment on blogs, some are just shutting off comments altogether, because of lawsuits.

      --
      Build your own energy sources from scratch. http://otherpower.com/
    45. Re:Bye Bye EBAY by mysidia · · Score: 1

      You don't get it... some troll is going to get a court issue an order for a shutdown of an 'eBay website under the act', from some judge who has never heard of eBay... then eBay will have to petition the court, and wait 3 to 15 business days for the court to agree to accept their emergency petition to re-instate the site <G>

    46. Re:Bye Bye EBAY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fantastic, would you mind telling me the name of your company so I can use you to host websites, not even torrent indexers, on your non-US servers? I'm tired of wondering what might happen to my data if I store it on a server in the US.

    47. Re:Bye Bye EBAY by sarx · · Score: 1

      I see no relationship of entailment between piracy legislation and movie blogs being shut down for bad reviews, or forums being shut down when someone quotes 1984.

      I'm open to seeing such an entailment demonstrated.

      But attacking me personally doesn't demonstrate such an entailment, nor does hand-waving about how the world is run by cash.

    48. Re:Bye Bye EBAY by sarx · · Score: 1

      I see tons of negative movie reviews and tons of people quoting 1984 without those websites being shut down.

      I don't see any reason to suppose that (stupid) piracy legislation means that such extreme things would start to happen... there is no evidence for that claim that I can see.

      This does not entail statements like "you can trust the government" and "any dissenters should be put in jail" any more than your post entails "babies are tasty."

    49. Re:Bye Bye EBAY by sarx · · Score: 1

      I don't see any logical connection between the (stupid) DMCA and the hysterical claim that web sites will be shut down for hosting negative movie reviews.

      Whether I can "envision a scenario" is irrelevant; I can envision a scenario where I am drowning in cognac, but that doesn't make it likely.

    50. Re:Bye Bye EBAY by sarx · · Score: 1

      Waving your hands at the wikipedia article for history simply does not demonstrate any relation of entailment between stupid piracy legislation and people being disallowed from quoting 1984. Really?

    51. Re:Bye Bye EBAY by sarx · · Score: 1

      A stupid and litigious cult issues DMCA notices, therefore the US Government will shut down forums where people quote 1984? Really?

    52. Re:Bye Bye EBAY by Halifax+Samuels · · Score: 1

      There's plenty of evidence of actions such as the ones AC described. There's all the DMCA and copyright abuses used against people to do things such as remove YouTube videos that are clearly either perfectly legal or covered by fair use. There's the newspaper that was suing everybody for even quoting their articles, and the lady (doctor or author or something) that copyrighted her name and was suing anybody that used her name.

      There's also evidence that points to actions like these. There was the Kane & Lynch video game reviewer that got fired when he gave an okay review - obviously the game developer had a deal with the review site to give it a good review no matter what and when the reviewer honestly and morally did his job he was punished for it. Does that break any laws? No, but neither does any of the other cases I mentioned, either.

      Was I too lazy to look up sources for these? Yes. However I'm sure anyone here will recognize at least one of those cases as things that were reported on. Laws (and pretty much ANYTHING, really) will be abused and contorted to fit someone's will and eventually used to do their bidding if they're clever and greedy/evil enough. It's just a matter of when and how much damage will it do? It could just be some kid getting a bully's website blocked (somehow) or it could be the RIAA/MPAA blocking any site that hosts a torrent of any kind. I'm not willing to take the chance that the RIAA/MPAA would step up and continue their trend of legal bullying and political lobbying to take advantage of a blacklist like this.

  2. Governmental Takeover? by Sonny+Yatsen · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Ever notice the same people who call Net Neutrality a government takeover of the internet are usually pretty quiet whenever somebody in Congress proposes a law that'd allow them to block or shut websites down?

    --
    My postings are informational and does not constitute legal advice. Act on it at your risk.
    1. Re:Governmental Takeover? by Freddybear · · Score: 1, Insightful

      No, I hadn't noticed that at all. I think any sort of government regulation of the Internet is a bad thing.

    2. Re:Governmental Takeover? by spun · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Cool, so I can break into your website and deface it? Start a smear campaign against you claiming you are an ex Nazi who likes having sex with dead relatives? Break into your online bank account and steal your money? Admit it, you want at least some government regulation of the Internet. Unless, I don't know, maybe you want a lawless old west where groups like Anonymous can wreak havoc unmolested by evil government types.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    3. Re:Governmental Takeover? by interkin3tic · · Score: 1

      I don't really notice anyone calling net neutrality a government takeover. Maybe because I don't watch cable news.

    4. Re:Governmental Takeover? by jewishbaconzombies · · Score: 4, Funny

      Just plant child porn. He'll be sharing a cell quicker than you can say "club fed".

    5. Re:Governmental Takeover? by causality · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Cool, so I can break into your website and deface it?

      That's what securing your systems is for. The toughest possible law in the USA against unauthorized entry/access won't stop someone outside your jurisdiction doing this as the Internet is a global network. You take resonable steps to secure your systems or you're an irresponsible admin, it really is that simple. For better or for worse, no law is going to change that.

      Start a smear campaign against you claiming you are an ex Nazi who likes having sex with dead relatives?

      Supposing the person is within jurisdiction, existing libel laws would already cover this. The medium (newspaper, TV, Web site) should be irrelevant. If they are out of your jurisdiction, what were you going to do about that anyway?

      Break into your online bank account and steal your money?

      That's fraud and/or theft. The medium should be irrelevant.

      Admit it, you want at least some government regulation of the Internet.

      No discrimination on the basis of destination or origin sounds good to me. For the reactionary types out there who like to knee-jerk, traffic shaping that prioritizes traffic type such as VOIP does not need to consider the destination or origin.

      Unless, I don't know, maybe you want a lawless old west where groups like Anonymous can wreak havoc unmolested by evil government types.

      I like that better than excessive government control. I'm not going to say that such things are perfectly fine. They aren't. They just aren't as bad as the immense distrust the federal government has soundly earned.

      Incidentally, if you refer to an attack Anonymous made against a certain "church" then it couldn't have happened to a nicer bunch of people. While I don't agree with the methods used, some groups seem to think they're untouchable and an occasional reminder that they aren't isn't a completely bad thing.

      --
      It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
    6. Re:Governmental Takeover? by Rasperin · · Score: 1

      Man if I had mod points I would totally give you one, I was going to say the exact same thing. Current laws already protect us, and you have to secure your site because these laws only cover the US.

      --
      WTF Slashdot, why do I have to login 50 times to post?
    7. Re:Governmental Takeover? by spun · · Score: 1

      While it is certainly nice to know that existing libel law regulates the Internet, it is not a good argument for an unregulated Internet.

      Also, good to know that existing laws against fraud and theft also regulate the Internet. It wouldn't be very safe without those, now would it?

      I also agree that we should, in addition to the regulations that are already present, regulate traffic shaping.

      Funny how "Excessive" is so often a synonym for "Things I don't like."

      We may cheer when mob violence is turned against targets we think deserve it (and I certainly think Scientology deserves some sort of consequences for their actions), but there is a reason mob violence has been replaced by the rule of law in most parts of the world.

      I'm not arguing for this new law. I am arguing against the idea that all regulation is bad. Nobody actually thinks that, but they say it anyway. People just don't think of regulation they like as "regulation."

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    8. Re:Governmental Takeover? by Naturalis+Philosopho · · Score: 0

      We may cheer when mob violence is turned against targets we think deserve it (and I certainly think Scientology deserves some sort of consequences for their actions), but there is a reason mob violence has been replaced by the rule of law in most parts of the world.

      I think that the big problem is that, in democracies of any sort, the mob makes the laws. Force of law is a very big stick to be wielding when so many disagree with the policies being enforced. In other words, people who champion the "law" nowadays are often just applauding their mob.

      While most people who call themselves libertarians are just selfish asshats, they do have a good point that we can't regulate everything. If something isn't covered by a basic law such as "don't steal", we have to look more closely to decide whether it's something we should be regulating, or something we should allow to self-regulate. And even if we decide that it would be nice to regulate that thing, we also need to ask if it's feasible, cost-effective, or paid for in a fair manner. When it comes to almost anything, and the perfect example here is copyright, if people aren't generally ashamed to be caught doing something, there's no way a law is going to be effective without huge costs both in money and unintended consequences.

    9. Re:Governmental Takeover? by causality · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I'm not arguing for this new law. I am arguing against the idea that all regulation is bad. Nobody actually thinks that, but they say it anyway. People just don't think of regulation they like as "regulation."

      There's a seemingly small but significant difference. Usually "regulation" connotes guidelines for a practice that you do want to allow, but need to place boundaries on, like trading stocks or selling pharmaceuticals. Whereas standard law enforcement usually concerns practices you don't want to allow at all, like fraud and theft.

      That's why there was only one item I actually filed under the heading of "regulation" in my previous post. That would be a simple law stating that ISPs and carriers may not discriminate on the basis of destination or origin. This would be a regulation, as we do want ISPs to transmit IP packets and this rule would set boundaries on how they may do so. Every other concern mentioned was either basic law enforcement or the difference between a responsible admin and an incompetent admin.

      Speaking only for myself, I think that's a reasonable distinction that can be objectively applied. It neatly avoids any concerns about whether I happen to like something. You can have excessive law enforcement just as you can have excessive regulation. While I like to call things what they are, neither excess is desirable.

      --
      It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
    10. Re:Governmental Takeover? by causality · · Score: 3, Insightful

      We may cheer when mob violence is turned against targets we think deserve it (and I certainly think Scientology deserves some sort of consequences for their actions), but there is a reason mob violence has been replaced by the rule of law in most parts of the world.

      Sorry for the second reply but I think a good point can be made here.

      First of all, I clearly stated I didn't agree with the actions of Anonymous. That hardly qualifies as "cheering". I merely find it predictable cause-and-effect and the only surprise I see in the whole situation is that such things haven't happened more frequently. Also, to the best of my knowledge, Anonymous performed a bunch of very irritating, costly, and time-wasting activities but did not use actual violence. So I will use the term "mob action".

      The best way to cause mob action is to either do nothing at all or perform only slap-on-the-wrist sanctions against an entity with (in my opinion) a long track record of repeated abuses of one kind or another. That's what allows for the possibility of a mob to form that thinks the job was left undone and that they should do something about it since no one else is going to.

      The whole point of a justice system is so that the people can see that justice was done by the proper officials, that the matter has been settled and needs no further response. Fail to achieve that and what you will find is that the difference between decent people and bad people is that decent people will wait longer before taking matters into their own hands. Right or wrong, this is quite predictable.

      --
      It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
    11. Re:Governmental Takeover? by mr_mischief · · Score: 3, Informative

      I think the point is that the Internet shouldn't necessarily get any more regulation simply for being the Internet. The sorts of things you're talking about wouldn't be allowed by law in meatspace. This new law is equivalent to pulling the business license and evicting a seller from a brick-and-mortar store for these offenses without a trial. why should they be doing this to web sites specifically when they wouldn't dream of passing a law to do it on Fifth Avenue if Saks was accused of it.

    12. Re:Governmental Takeover? by king+neckbeard · · Score: 1

      There was a handsofftheinternet astroturfing site, and I think Glenn Beck whined a bit about it, but free market arguments only apply to free markets, while a huge share of telecoms are government backed monopolies.

      --
      This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
    13. Re:Governmental Takeover? by causality · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I think that the big problem is that, in democracies of any sort, the mob makes the laws. Force of law is a very big stick to be wielding when so many disagree with the policies being enforced. In other words, people who champion the "law" nowadays are often just applauding their mob.

      In this case, it's the "mob" that doesn't want these new laws. They were not the result of popular public pressure. It's a small minority of powerful special interests that have a lot of political clout. This is neither democracy nor a functioning representative republic.

      While most people who call themselves libertarians are just selfish asshats, they do have a good point that we can't regulate everything. If something isn't covered by a basic law such as "don't steal", we have to look more closely to decide whether it's something we should be regulating, or something we should allow to self-regulate.

      The idea of libertarian (small 'l') thought is simplicity itself. Consenting adults should be free to do whatever they please with their property and their own body and should be free to believe whatever they want. They should be able to exercise those freedoms whether or not someone else doesn't like it; anyone who doesn't like their actions is free to provide a counter-example in the form of how they deal with their own body, property, and beliefs.

      The selfish asshats are the ones who would use the force of law to tell you what you may not do with your own body or your own property. They typically do this out of some kind of Puritannical desire to enforce their morality on others. The people who want to be left alone by them so long as they don't violate anyone else's freedoms are not selfish in the slightest. They are reasonable.

      This is so easy to understand that I must conclude the numerous attempts to portray libertarian thought as some kind of anarcho-capitalism are simple demagoguery conducted by people who either have an agenda or have been propagandized by those who do. You do need a government to enforce notions like private property and civil rights and I know of no libertarian who would argue otherwise.

      And even if we decide that it would be nice to regulate that thing, we also need to ask if it's feasible, cost-effective, or paid for in a fair manner. When it comes to almost anything, and the perfect example here is copyright, if people aren't generally ashamed to be caught doing something, there's no way a law is going to be effective without huge costs both in money and unintended consequences.

      Copyright has become out of control. If it returned to a 12-year term after which time the work became public domain, it would regain respectability. It would then fulfill its intended purpose of granting a temporary monopoly to creators in exchange for an enriched public domain.

      Think about it; the original 12-year term was during a time when the printing press and paper was the most technologically advanced means of distribution. We can now distribute many more works in far less time yet copyright lasts much longer. People don't respect copyright today for the simple reason that it is not respectable. It is no wonder they feel no shame for violating it. This is also easy to understand unless you subscribe to such a strict "law-and-order" mentality that you have abandoned all concept of understanding human nature and wish to replace that understanding with harsher threats of penalty.

      --
      It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
    14. Re:Governmental Takeover? by B1oodAnge1 · · Score: 1

      most people who call themselves libertarians are just selfish asshats

      Everyone is a selfish asshat.
      Most libertarians are just honest about their asshattery.
      Who would you prefer? An honest, or a dishonest, selfish asshat?

      --
      RUGBYRUGBYRUGBY
    15. Re:Governmental Takeover? by Freddybear · · Score: 1

      If you're of a mind to do any of those things which you threaten, no amount of regulation on the Internet is going to stop you anyway.

      Are you proposing that the government should actively regulate and filter the internet to the degree necessary to prevent you from doing those things?

    16. Re:Governmental Takeover? by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry I have no mod points today, but that's okay, I think some other kind folks will take care of it.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    17. Re:Governmental Takeover? by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

      The whole point of a justice system is so that the people can see that justice was done by the proper officials, that the matter has been settled and needs no further response. Fail to achieve that and what you will find is that the difference between decent people and bad people is that decent people will wait longer before taking matters into their own hands. Right or wrong, this is quite predictable.

      I agree, but I would say the difference is between "patient" people and "impatient" ones. The end result is the same.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    18. Re:Governmental Takeover? by causality · · Score: 1

      most people who call themselves libertarians are just selfish asshats

      Everyone is a selfish asshat. Most libertarians are just honest about their asshattery. Who would you prefer? An honest, or a dishonest, selfish asshat?

      It's absolutely not true that everyone is a selfish asshat.

      I don't know of a single libertarian who wants to have a great deal of freedom but also wants to deny such freedom to everyone else. That sure would be selfish. Instead, libertarian thought is a belief in the greatest possible reasonable amount of freedom for everyone.

      Who is selfish? The person who wants everyone to be as free as is reasonably possible? Or the person who wants to punish anyone who does things they don't like even when they aren't infringing anyone else's rights? Seems easy enough to me.

      --
      It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
    19. Re:Governmental Takeover? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Um no, the solution for net neutrality is this, less government intervention, as for this bill, it is just the MPAA + RIAA shoving money in peoples pockets.

    20. Re:Governmental Takeover? by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

      Who is selfish? The person who wants everyone to be as free as is reasonably possible? Or the person who wants to punish anyone who does things they don't like even when they aren't infringing anyone else's rights? Seems easy enough to me.

      Surprisingly hard for many. I suspect that, were that idea so easy to absorb, it would have rendered our history a bit less bloody.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    21. Re:Governmental Takeover? by zzyzx · · Score: 1

      "Instead, libertarian thought is a belief in the greatest possible reasonable amount of freedom for everyone. "

      Only true if you don't care about freedom of assembly (only true if there is public property which there wouldn't be in Libertopia). Of course you'd also have to miss that many of our freedoms come about because we don't have the dubious "freedom" to sign a contracts that would let the powerful easily bully around the weak. It would not be hard to effectively enslave people in a Libertarian society through non-compete clauses and obfuscated language. For that matter, a majority could commit legal genocide by just refusing to sell any of them food or let them use private roads to leave the area, but - hey - at least the rights of the shop owners and road creators wouldn't be destroyed.

    22. Re:Governmental Takeover? by Omestes · · Score: 1

      The idea of libertarian (small 'l') thought is simplicity itself. Consenting adults should be free to do whatever they please with their property and their own body and should be free to believe whatever they want. They should be able to exercise those freedoms whether or not someone else doesn't like it; anyone who doesn't like their actions is free to provide a counter-example in the form of how they deal with their own body, property, and beliefs.

      Almost. I am a small "L" libertarian, or at least I self-label myself a "social libertarian", and find your definition correct but overly broad, and too close to capital "L" Libertarian dogma. Consenting adults should be allowed to do whatever they please, but with the caveat, as long as it does no harm to anyone else, or infringes on the rights, freedoms or wellbeing of other people. This is why I am a "social libertarian" and not a Libertarian. The Libertarians do fine until they start ranting about free markets and Ayn Rand, which to me violates libertarianism as often they HATE the idea of any regulation, which opens up abuse of the rights and freedoms of others more often than not. Also small "l" libertarianism is not against government regulation, or governance in general, since it realizes the whole aspect of a "social contract" and not just blind egotism.

      I'm being harsh. Let me rephrase that in a less trollish way; Small "L" libertarianism endorses complete individual freedom, as long as it does not violate the freedoms of others. The difference between different flavors of libertarianism lie in what lines there are, what rights you recognize as uninfringable, and what values you place on commerce and society (and which you put emphasis on).

      I agree, asshats, in general, like to enforce their views on others. Libertarians are no different, their utopia sounds just as hellish to me as a theocracy, or the utopia of extreme liberals. For any group there are true believers who are so convinced of their individual truth that they would will it to be enforced on everyone. No ideology is free from this contingent.

      Libertarians, it seems, have a higher contingent of true believers than most political ideology, or at least their true believers are louder and more dogmatic.

      --
      A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
    23. Re:Governmental Takeover? by metacell · · Score: 1

      Most of those crimes can be fought without regulating the Internet. Breaking into someone's e-mail account and making offensive statements on their behalf is a form of slander. Breaking into someone's bank account to steal their money is a form of fraud. They are fought by tracking down the individual criminal and apprehending them, with the help of the bank's own logs and security measures. There's no need to shut down websites.

    24. Re:Governmental Takeover? by metacell · · Score: 1

      Pls mod parent up for Insightful

    25. Re:Governmental Takeover? by greyc · · Score: 1

      You make some good points. That said:

      This is so easy to understand that I must conclude the numerous attempts to portray libertarian thought as some kind of anarcho-capitalism are simple demagoguery conducted by people who either have an agenda or have been propagandized by those who do. You do need a government to enforce notions like private property and civil rights and I know of no libertarian who would argue otherwise.

      That can be fixed. Take a look at ESR's take on this:

      The other 1/4 (including the author of this FAQ) are out-and-out anarchists who believe that "limited government" is a delusion and the free market can provide better law, order, and security than any goverment monopoly.

      Please don't respond with "anyone who says this isn't a real libertarian" unless you have very specific arguments that prevent it from falling into the category of No True Scotsman.

      There are self-described libertarians who are also self-described anarchists. From the way many of them talk (see e.g. that FAQ), I have no particular reason they are twisting words either when calling themselves 'libertarian' nor when calling themselves 'anarchist'. Anarchism is an extreme of libertarian thought, but it is definitely part of the spectrum.

    26. Re:Governmental Takeover? by mrogers · · Score: 1

      The idea of libertarian (small 'l') thought is simplicity itself.

      That alone should make you skeptical.

      Consenting adults should be free to do whatever they please with their property and their own body and should be free to believe whatever they want. They should be able to exercise those freedoms whether or not someone else doesn't like it; anyone who doesn't like their actions is free to provide a counter-example in the form of how they deal with their own body, property, and beliefs.

      The selfish asshats are the ones who would use the force of law to tell you what you may not do with your own body or your own property.

      Not all attempts to restrict what people do with their property are motivated by selfishness. Example: pollution.

      They typically do this out of some kind of Puritannical desire to enforce their morality on others.

      That's a very limited and, if I may say so, typically American view of the world. Not everyone's a libertarian or a Puritan. Some parts of the world still remember feudalism (some are still enduring it), and are consequently skeptical of the idea that property rights alone are sufficient to ensure a free and just society.

      You like simplicity, so here's a simple model of how libertarianism devolves into something less pretty. Assume we have a population of individuals who all start out with equal wealth, and who are free to invest that wealth in enterprises, some of which succeed, leading to a multiplicative increase in the invested wealth, and some of which fail, leading to a multiplicative decrease. Now, if there's an arbitrarily small random factor involved in the success or failure of enterprises, the distribution of wealth will over time approach the lognormal distribution. In short, a few people will become very rich, and most people will become relatively poor, even if they're all equally skilled investors. (I say "relatively poor" in anticipation of some hand-waving argument about how removing the shackles of taxation will lead to a jump in productivity. My argument doesn't depend on whether or not that's true.)

      Now we have two problems. (1) The very rich people may be able to use their wealth to distort the perfect libertarian free market, entrenching their advantage. A shocking idea, I know, but please remember that this is just a thought experiment. (2) The poor people may be forced by short-term needs such as food and shelter to enter contracts that are not in their long-term interest. As long as any employer exists who offers them only the means of survival in return for their labour, the market will drive any more generous employer out of business. Having earned nothing but the means of survival, the poor will invest nothing and leave nothing to their children. So the underclass, once created, will persist.

      We are now quite far from a libertarian utopia in which everyone frolics freely in his private meadow and shits in the collective river - we have an entrenched ruling class, a political process corrupted by money and an exploited underclass trapped in a hand-to-mouth existence. Sound familiar? Yet we've been brought here by nothing but property rights and free markets.

      The people who want to be left alone by them so long as they don't violate anyone else's freedoms are not selfish in the slightest. They are reasonable.

      It's possible to be both.

    27. Re:Governmental Takeover? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cool, so I can break into your website and deface it? Start a smear campaign against you claiming you are an ex Nazi who likes having sex with dead relatives? Break into your online bank account and steal your money? Admit it, you want at least some government regulation of the Internet. Unless, I don't know, maybe you want a lawless old west where groups like Anonymous can wreak havoc unmolested by evil government types.

      I don't see anything on your list of "bad internet crimes" that government regulation is working to prevent.

    28. Re:Governmental Takeover? by Rysc · · Score: 1

      Well said and in accordance with my views. I would like to endorse libertarianism, but for all of the free market utopians who start with "We can't regulate anything, period" and work backwards to try to justify all evils that result from that.

      Ideally I'd like a new word to describe what you call "social libertarian" - which is a label that also holds much ambiguity - so that these ideas can be promoted more readily.

      --
      I want my Cowboyneal
    29. Re:Governmental Takeover? by spun · · Score: 1

      There's already a good word. It means "No hierarchy," but people think it means "no government," even though that would obviously be pronounced "Anocracy."

      The word "Libertarian" (in America anyhow) is forever tainted by association with free market radicals.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    30. Re:Governmental Takeover? by spun · · Score: 1

      I think that is merely a semantic difference brought up to "win" an argument. Regulations and laws both state what you can and can't do. Is it against the law to speed, or is that a regulation? Generally, breaking a regulation is against the law.

      Let me just ask you, does society have regulations that are not laws? How do they work?

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    31. Re:Governmental Takeover? by spun · · Score: 1

      In general, I agree, but the Internet, IMHO, needs at least one special regulation: no traffic shaping based on endpoints. Traffic shape based on traffic type if you like, but nothing that would let you, as an ISP or backbone provider, blackmail popular sites with the threat of slowdowns. This is really only necessary because of the tremendous consolidation of ISPs and media companies. It's an oligopoly.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    32. Re:Governmental Takeover? by spun · · Score: 1

      Gah! No, of course not. I am trying to debate the idea that all regulations are bad. Existing laws and regulations already cover the Internet, so saying you don't want any regulations is kind of silly. As is saying you don't want any new regulations. I for instance, would like to see it made against the law for ISPs to shape traffic based on origin or destination.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    33. Re:Governmental Takeover? by spun · · Score: 1

      As those laws appply to the Internet, they regulate the Internet. Maybe you meant you don't want any new, special laws?

      I'm not arguing in favor of this particular regulation. I'm arguing that this pernicious idea that all regulations, all government, all laws are bad, is a stupid and dangerous idea.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    34. Re:Governmental Takeover? by causality · · Score: 1

      You make some good points. That said:

      This is so easy to understand that I must conclude the numerous attempts to portray libertarian thought as some kind of anarcho-capitalism are simple demagoguery conducted by people who either have an agenda or have been propagandized by those who do. You do need a government to enforce notions like private property and civil rights and I know of no libertarian who would argue otherwise.

      That can be fixed. Take a look at ESR's take on this:

      The other 1/4 (including the author of this FAQ) are out-and-out anarchists who believe that "limited government" is a delusion and the free market can provide better law, order, and security than any goverment monopoly.

      Please don't respond with "anyone who says this isn't a real libertarian" unless you have very specific arguments that prevent it from falling into the category of No True Scotsman.

      There are self-described libertarians who are also self-described anarchists. From the way many of them talk (see e.g. that FAQ), I have no particular reason they are twisting words either when calling themselves 'libertarian' nor when calling themselves 'anarchist'. Anarchism is an extreme of libertarian thought, but it is definitely part of the spectrum.

      You don't seem to appreciate the deliberate way in which I phrased my response. I said I know of no such person. I did not claim that no such person exists. It's a bit reactionary and knee-jerk to tell me about the "no true Scotsman" fallacy (of which I was already aware, for what it's worth).

      Otherwise, thank you for revealing to me that my notions of libertarianism were unnecessarily narrow. I have a strong preference for not remaining ignorant and you've been helpful to that end.

      --
      It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
    35. Re:Governmental Takeover? by causality · · Score: 1

      Almost. I am a small "L" libertarian, or at least I self-label myself a "social libertarian", and find your definition correct but overly broad, and too close to capital "L" Libertarian dogma. Consenting adults should be allowed to do whatever they please, but with the caveat, as long as it does no harm to anyone else, or infringes on the rights, freedoms or wellbeing of other people.

      Actually I covered that in my post. In a later paragraph I said (quoting my own previous text):

      The selfish asshats are the ones who would use the force of law to tell you what you may not do with your own body or your own property. They typically do this out of some kind of Puritannical desire to enforce their morality on others. The people who want to be left alone by them so long as they don't violate anyone else's freedoms are not selfish in the slightest. They are reasonable.

      Emhasis added. I definitely understand this concept. I like to use drunk driving as an analogy. Let's say you purchase or make alcohol and are the rightful owner of that alcohol (i.e. you have not stolen it). You most certainly "own" your body. So you put alcohol into your body. It's not the role of government to tell you as an adult not to do that.

      But then you consume alcohol and drive drunk. Now you threaten others. Now, because of the threat you pose to others, the government does have a legitimate reason to stop you. Those others didn't consent to having you pose a threat of bodily harm and property damage to them. At that point you fail to confine the consequences of your actions to yourself.

      The Libertarians do fine until they start ranting about free markets and Ayn Rand, which to me violates libertarianism as often they HATE the idea of any regulation, which opens up abuse of the rights and freedoms of others more often than not. Also small "l" libertarianism is not against government regulation, or governance in general, since it realizes the whole aspect of a "social contract" and not just blind egotism.

      To me the purpose of regulation is to prevent abuses that would interfere with informed consent. Because of the concentrations of wealth and expertise that corporations represent, the average customer is often not dealing with them as an equal. For example, most people who purchase computers have no idea how they work and could easily be misled by a fast-talking salesman.

      The moment that happens, the "without force or fraud" aspect of consentual mutual transaction has been compromised. I have no problem with government sanctions against a salesman who takes advantage of his customers in this fashion, so long as the burden of proof is firmly on the government's shoulders. I don't therefore see "false advertising" penalties as a regulation that should be eliminated.

      You need either reasonable regulations or you need for every person who ever purchases every product or service to be an expert in that field. The former is feasible; the latter is not. Most things you would reasonably regulate amount to fraud or deception of one kind or another, such as many stock market scams. Rule of law is a good thing. It just needs to have a reasonable basis.

      --
      It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
    36. Re:Governmental Takeover? by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      >>>Ever notice the same people who call Net Neutrality a government takeover of the internet are usually pretty quiet whenever somebody in Congress proposes a law that'd allow them to block or shut websites down?

      No. In fact Limbaugh, Beck, and others have been complaining about it for awhile.
      Nice troll though. You got me and several others to respond to your Strawman Argument.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    37. Re:Governmental Takeover? by Freddybear · · Score: 1

      Thing is, you don't get to choose only the regulations that you like. If you give the FCC the power to decide how ISP's run their businesses, you get AT&T and Comcast and the RIAA and every kind of censorship group trying to influence those decisions.

      Look up "regulatory capture".

    38. Re:Governmental Takeover? by spun · · Score: 1

      Regulatory capture is hypothetical, a potential danger that can be overcome by writing the laws the right way. I'd say net neutrality would protect against censorship, blackmail, and would not lead to regulatory capture.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    39. Re:Governmental Takeover? by spun · · Score: 1

      You do realize I did not post that statement, right? You want user "Sonny Yatsen."

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    40. Re:Governmental Takeover? by Omestes · · Score: 1

      Actually I covered that in my post.

      I did notice that around 2/3rds of the way through my rant, but I was enjoying the rant so much I continued with it. I suppose my point was to clarify and reemphasize a bit, since the whole "until it infringes"/personal responsibility thing is often completely lost to the average Slashdot Libertarian, and thus needed to be brought more to the forefront.

      I pretty much agree with 100% though. Some people see the term "regulation" as evil, and ignore the fact that often it is nothing but consumer protection from amoral moneyed interests.

      There is a bit of a line though, sometimes I fear we protect consumer ignorance too much (tags on hair dryers, etc...). Keeping a corporation from selling toxic products is one thing, protecting people from their own dangerous levels of stupidity is another. Generally I err on the side of caution and figure regulating against harm is better than not, though. As long as it doesn't hurt those who are knowledgeable.

      --
      A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
    41. Re:Governmental Takeover? by Rysc · · Score: 1

      I don't think it is necessary to have no hierarchy, it's just a generally good idea for a fair society. A worthy goal but not directly related.

      --
      I want my Cowboyneal
    42. Re:Governmental Takeover? by spun · · Score: 1

      I'm not making claims as to what is necessary. I'm saying there is already a word for 'social libertarian.' It's called anarchism. An-archy, no archons, no rulers. The only reason we no longer use the word is because of turn of the century government propaganda campaigns designed to link the word to "chaos" and "terrorist."

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    43. Re:Governmental Takeover? by greyc · · Score: 1

      You don't seem to appreciate the deliberate way in which I phrased my response. I said I know of no such person. I did not claim that no such person exists.

      I didn't mean to imply that you were lying. I was specifically worried about the NTS possibility since ESR is fairly well kown for his views among geekish libertarians, and so it struck me as relatively unlikely that someone with your understanding of the subject would be unaware of the existence of anarchist+libertarian views, to the extent of concluding that the association a result of propaganda from people opposed to libertarianism.
      I apologize if this came across as unnecessarily confrontational; no personal attacks were intended.
      I'm glad my post was informative for you :)

    44. Re:Governmental Takeover? by causality · · Score: 1

      The whole point of a justice system is so that the people can see that justice was done by the proper officials, that the matter has been settled and needs no further response. Fail to achieve that and what you will find is that the difference between decent people and bad people is that decent people will wait longer before taking matters into their own hands. Right or wrong, this is quite predictable.

      I agree, but I would say the difference is between "patient" people and "impatient" ones. The end result is the same.

      Most of the difference between "decent" and "bad" boils down to patience. If it helps, patience and a willingness to forgive others for their faults while seeking the best in them go hand-in-hand.

      Though, when it is necessary, patience is not incompatible with putting someone firmly in their place when they are clearly out of order. The difference is that patience equips you to realize that this is better and more powerful when it is not done out of a base thing like anger.

      --
      It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
    45. Re:Governmental Takeover? by causality · · Score: 1

      You don't seem to appreciate the deliberate way in which I phrased my response. I said I know of no such person. I did not claim that no such person exists.

      I didn't mean to imply that you were lying. I was specifically worried about the NTS possibility since ESR is fairly well kown for his views among geekish libertarians, and so it struck me as relatively unlikely that someone with your understanding of the subject would be unaware of the existence of anarchist+libertarian views, to the extent of concluding that the association a result of propaganda from people opposed to libertarianism. I apologize if this came across as unnecessarily confrontational; no personal attacks were intended. I'm glad my post was informative for you :)

      No offense was taken, sir. I felt that you had misinterpreted me, but at no time did I believe you were attacking me personally. Even if you were, getting offended would be the most counterproductive thing I could have possibly done :). If anything, the short time I have spent dealing with you has been refreshing. For that reason, I'd like to further explain my views. I'll add that I have certainly heard of ESR but only in the context of programming and *nix-related topics. I'm not one for celebrity or personalities of people I don't actually know and so it never occurred to me to investigate his political views. You really did expose me to an example I did not before know about.

      Most of the time that I see libertarianism demagogued it's some variation of a single technique. The technique is simple enough; I consider it a type of straw-man. It's to portray only its most extreme possible form and highlight everything that could potentially go wrong with it. Usually this amounts to equating libertarianism with anarchy as though those were exactly the same thing, as though it's a waste of two perfectly good English words when only one is necessary to describe a single concept.

      I may or may not depart from ESR in that I consider libertarianism and anarchy to be two distinct ideas. They are not mutually exclusive, and in fact can be blended as you explain ESR has done. You've provided a good example of someone who wants to constructively blend these two ideas. That's rare in my experience. My primary exposure to the blending of those two is from people who want to look down their nose at something they hardly seem to understand. "Small l" libertarianism is very much like the Electric Universe theory, in that the people who denigrate it the most tend to know the least about it.

      Back to my point, usually libertarian thought is demagogued by portraying it as straight up unmitigated anarcho-capitalism. As in, there is no public police protection. You can either afford to hire your own private guards or you're subject to anyone who wants to threaten you. The guards in this case are more like mercenaries and it's a "might makes right" scenario that is not compatible with notions like rule of law. The key point is that if you think the rich and powerful are screwing the little guy now, it'd be far worse if any semblance of rule-of-law were completely abandoned. It'd be like feudalism more than anything. Now, maybe there are other factors that would prevent this from being the case. Maybe there aren't. Someone who subscribes to this view would do a better job than I of explaining that.

      I will say that ESR's point about gigantic government becoming a tool of the elite is absolutely correct. I just think that moving from one extreme (gigantic, all-powerful government) to another extreme (anarchy) is not such an improvement. Most attempts to protest a hated thing by being its exact opposite don't work out so well, as they are still a reaction to that hated thing and therefore an effect of its cause, a continuation of its momentum. A minimal government that derives all of its authority from clearly articulated core principle

      --
      It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
    46. Re:Governmental Takeover? by dark_requiem · · Score: 1

      You do need a government to enforce notions like private property and civil rights and I know of no libertarian who would argue otherwise.

      If government is necessary to enforce private property rights, and those rights are essentially contractual arrangements to transfer property from one owner to another, then why is it not necessary to establish a meta-government to enforce the "social contract" which establishes the government? And, of course, the meta-meta-government to enforce the meta-government's social contract. And so on...

      In what sense is an institution which systematically violates civil and property rights (civil and property rights, incidentally, are the same thing. Civil rights, also called natural rights, are derived from self-ownership of the individual, the same source as property rights) necessary for the protection of those rights?

      And incidentally, there are plenty of libertarians who hold precisely the view that the government is not only not necessary, but actually detrimental to the defense of natural rights. Read a little Murray Rothbard for a prominent and particularly well-reasoned example. The minarchist view is readily summed up as follows: we cannot trust the government with aspects of life such as the production of a stable currency, but we can most certainly trust them with our lives and freedoms. How does that make sense?

    47. Re:Governmental Takeover? by mr_mischief · · Score: 1

      Agreed. Traffic shaping based on type, possibly with different customers able to get plans for different types of traffic (low latency for small packets vs. high total throughput with higher latency for example). They shouldn't be charging competitors more for competing data sources or types of service or shaping them down, though, just for competing. They also shouldn't be allowed to shape a smaller player down after the peering point in favor of a bigger one or one who has paid to get an advantage on the consumer end.

    48. Re:Governmental Takeover? by BobMcD · · Score: 1

      How, then, does a free market violate the freedoms of others? Because I'm not seeing where you illustrated that point. You seem to just have stated it as fact, and in defiance of dogma, that's rather ironic.

    49. Re:Governmental Takeover? by Omestes · · Score: 1

      Sorry, I wasn't trying to write a treatise on my political and economic views, so I didn't feel the need to elaborate on my every point.

      When I say "free market", I mean the idea that some, usually the vocal ones, hold; a market completely unfettered of regulation, taxes, or any outside interference, and the idea that this market would somehow self-regulate to avoid most abuse of individuals or society as a whole.

      As one person who replied to me said, this can lead to power imbalances that are exploitive of individuals, such as false advertisement (his point), or dangerous chemicals contained in common products, or cutting corners to save money in ways that may be dangerous to consumers. These imbalances require regulation for several reasons. Even if the free market self-regulates (which I don't buy), it would necessarily regulate after the fact, meaning there still is harm. And in some cases tons of harm before the self-regulating aperatus rectifies the situation. I don't find this acceptable, and thus some outside regulation is needed to keep things from becoming bad before the fact.

      As stated, I don't buy the self-regulating rhetoric. Most of the theories I've read on how this works involves consumers being 100% rational, and choosing not to associate with harmful, or unethical, sources. This, in my experience is not true. When we concentrate power into a limited amount of sources (corporations), we also make it easier for them to control information (as with the refusal to label GM salmon, as the industry flacks say that it limits choice), and without information customers, even is so inclined, could not make rational choices.

      Also, the average person cares about long-term consequences about as much as corporations do. Most people only care about the next couple of years. This serves to prohibit a large array of rational actions.

      Also, there is something I find strange about expecting virtue from corporations who are fully expected to be completely amoral, and whose highest principle should be returns to stockholders, and not any form of social wellbeing. This seems to set up a pretty strange scenario.

      I also hold corporate freedoms as the lowest priority of any society. The first obligation should always be to the individuals that make up society. Corporations are a facet of our imagination, and thus do not deserve any consideration, beyond the individuals in them. As it stands, corporations exist only because we say they can, they have no rights (as aggregates) unless we allow them to. Being that they are a social construct, they should be used for the wellbeing of society.

      To make this short: A freemarket is find and dandy as long as there is no abuse of the truly important things, like individual rights. Obviously this isn't true, so we need to proactively protect these rights. This would be simple in the case of individual commerce (me selling you an item as an individual), but becomes infinitely more tricky when you have giant, faceless, corporations who are acting only in their own best interest by nature. For this we need proactive regulation to keep the power imbalances to a minimum, and hinder the potential for abuse, basically to protect individual rights. There is no logical issue with this since corporations are not individuals but social constructs, and thus lack innate rights of their own. Being that they are created by/for society, they should be beholden to society.

      This isn't to say I don't believe in capitalism, or adhere to a planned economy. I just don't accept the a purely free market (in common Libertarian terms) is a good idea. It should be as free as possible within the constraints of the goals of the society it operates in and limited by individual freedoms. Further, I find the completely free market to be a myth, an idealistic artifact as workable as a purely communist ideal, meaning not at all.

      This little rant was a wandering mess. Which I why I didn't address it in the original post. I requires much more space, and organization, to express than a simple forum post allows. Heady stuff.

      --
      A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
    50. Re:Governmental Takeover? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are better examples of "good" regulations. Environmental protection laws are regulations. Traffic rules are regulations. Mandatory licenses for certain professions, like medical practitioners, are regulations.

    51. Re:Governmental Takeover? by Mysteray · · Score: 1

      Cool, so I can break into your website and deface it? Start a smear campaign against you claiming you are an ex Nazi who likes having sex with dead relatives? Break into your online bank account and steal your money?

      Go for it dude, make it unforgettable, the stuff of legend. See URL above. Offer non-transferable. No points awarded for a dumb DoS. We'll share notes afterward and post on [Full-disclosure].

      Admit it, you want at least some government regulation of the Internet. Unless, I don't know, maybe you want a lawless old west where groups like Anonymous can wreak havoc unmolested by evil government types.

      No, I prefer the "old west" model actually. Not because I like chaos and anarchy, but simply that from a pragmatic perspective its what we'll get anyway.

      I know this is hard for many people to hear, but you need to be responsible for your own data security. Before you were connected to the internet, you'd lose all your data because you didn't back it up properly. No one expected a government regulation would take that risk away for you. In this case, bad guys (from many other countries) want to pwn your public-facing server (and everything behind it too). Anyone waiting for some sort of law to be passed to make them secure is going to remain disappointed (and have less freedom and privacy of their own). For one thing, just about anything you don't like is probably already excessively illegal. Additionally, a law will do nothing unless you refuse to exchange packets with any system ("that exchanges packets with any system" x infinity) that is not covered by such a law. Data are data, this is not technically possible.

      The case you name, Anonymous, a perfect example. There's quite a variety of laws around the world regulating data communications. I haven't kept up on the news about it lately, but just how much has any of this affected their operation? Approximately zero as far as I can tell.

  3. Checks and Balances are soooo 1900's by RingDev · · Score: 4, Insightful

    What's wrong with getting a court order?

    Every time we drop court orders out of the mix, we wind up with abusive crap (see FBI and National Security Letters).

    Just suck it up, deal with the paper work, and live in a nation governed by three equal branches of government that each work to ensure the other branches are not overstepping their bounds.

    -Rrick

    --
    "Most people in the U.S. wouldn't know they live in a tyrannical state if it walked up and grabbed their junk." - MyFirs
    1. Re:Checks and Balances are soooo 1900's by nebaz · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The Justice department would still have to get a court order, as they do now. The issue is that they could do so for a civil infraction, as opposed to a criminal infraction. Why the government is involved at all in civil justice is beyond me? Isn't that the job of the plaintiff?

      --
      Rhymes that keep their secrets will unfold behind the clouds.There upon the rainbow is the answer to a neverending story
    2. Re:Checks and Balances are soooo 1900's by Alanbly · · Score: 2, Informative
      The legislation still requires a court order...

      The new bill would give the government the authority to shut down the sites with a court order; the site owner would have to petition the court to have it lifted.

      --
      -- Adam McCormick
    3. Re:Checks and Balances are soooo 1900's by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "What's wrong with getting a court order?"

      When the person requesting it is a government official acting on behalf of a 3rd party's interest when really it should be between the 1st and 3rd parties, not the government. Basically this is just another way that the **AA and member companies are going to foot taxpayers with the bill for propping up their outdated and inflexible business models. If their business model can't survive change, it should die. Isn't that the entire fucking point of capitalism? Compete or die.

    4. Re:Checks and Balances are soooo 1900's by Jackie_Chan_Fan · · Score: 1, Interesting

      I tend to agree....

      But I think people feel that since the government and corporations are one, and considering how corrupt our government is.... that its a bit of the old kettle and tea pot. In most situations concerning the people, corporations, and wealth are favored over what the people want. I think the little guy likes to know that he too deserves to fuck over the corporations and government who use law to fuck over the little guy constantly.

      So here you have what probably makes sense and is fair in terms of law... but in the big picture of things.... Its just another oppressing law handed down by the wealthy elite who always get their way.

    5. Re:Checks and Balances are soooo 1900's by mr_mischief · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Ask Steve Jackson how much protection that is. You don't want a court order standing between you and losing your livelihood. You want a trial.

    6. Re:Checks and Balances are soooo 1900's by BitterOak · · Score: 1

      The Justice department would still have to get a court order, as they do now. The issue is that they could do so for a civil infraction, as opposed to a criminal infraction. Why the government is involved at all in civil justice is beyond me? Isn't that the job of the plaintiff?

      Actually, in the USA (which this story happens to be about), copyright law has both civil and criminal components. Ever notice the FBI warnings about fines and jail if you copy a DVD? There are real laws on the books to back that up. Most of it is in Title 17 of the United States Code.

      --
      If I can be modded down for being a troll, can I be modded up for being an orc, or a balrog?
    7. Re:Checks and Balances are soooo 1900's by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      >>>The Justice department would still have to get a court order, as they do now.

      Except that in this case the website owner is "presumed guilty" until he proves himself innocent. It puts all the hard work upon the citizen, when it should be the other way round (the onus should be on the government to prove guilt)(and failing that, the citizen's website remains up).
      .

      >>>Why the government is involved at all in civil justice is beyond me?

      They've redefined copyright infringement as a criminal offense, with assigned punishments ($7500 upto $150,000 per song or movie).

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    8. Re:Checks and Balances are soooo 1900's by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 2, Informative

      What's wrong with getting a court order?

      Every time we drop court orders out of the mix, we wind up with abusive crap (see FBI and National Security Letters).

      It should also be pointed out that according to everything TFA said, this is aimed at sites that "traffic in" pirated goods. "Trafficking" = selling. This is not just about downloading files. Further, although it has been misused a lot lately, the actual definition of copyright "piracy" is distribution and sale of copyrighted goods, not just making personal copies.

    9. Re:Checks and Balances are soooo 1900's by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is no different than in the physical world. So it is a step forward to bring the digital age in line with similar laws. Personally, I am all for this because it makes sense. The next thing to tackle is calling these goods a product and not a license. Therefore we can restore the First Sale doctrine and have the ability to sell a digital goods. I hate DRM as everyone else, but there really is not a system in place to sell our digital goods without a huge risk of making a copy then selling your digital good. Copying a digital product is cheap, fast, and superb quality. I am all for backups and cheap, fast, and superb quality. It's the actual transferring of ownership that is the most difficult.

      [Postulation]
      If every device can connect to the Internet, then it should not be a problem to transfer ownership of digital goods. Therefore, the internet should be free (or ran as a cheap utility) and be connected to every home.

      [Conclusion]
      We have to wait and see what the FCC says about Internet through the air.

    10. Re:Checks and Balances are soooo 1900's by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      The problem is that they don't have to tell the site owner in advance of going to court to get the order. They get a court order to shut your site down. Your site is shut down. Now you get to go to court and ask the judge to lift the order and put your site back up. You don't get to defend yourself before you are shut down. This means that you have fewer resources to defend yourself.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    11. Re:Checks and Balances are soooo 1900's by Alanbly · · Score: 1

      I don't disagree, I was just refuting an inaccurate argument.

      --
      -- Adam McCormick
    12. Re:Checks and Balances are soooo 1900's by Alsee · · Score: 1

      according to everything TFA said, this is aimed at sites that "traffic in" pirated goods. "Trafficking" = selling

      TFA addresses the law in a uselessly the vague manner. According to the actual text of the draft bill:

      (a) DEFINITION.--For purposes of this section, an Internet site is 'dedicated to infringing activities' if such a site -

      (1) is otherwise subject to civil forfeiture to the United States Government under section 2323; or

      (2) is - (A) primarily designed, has no demonstrable, commercially significant purpose or use other than, or is marketed by its operator, or by a person acting in concert with the operator, to offer -

      (i) goods or services in violation of title 17, United States Code, or enable or facilitate a violation of title 17, United States Code, including by offering or providing access to, without the authorization of the copyright owner or otherwise by operation of law, copies of, or public performance or display of, works protected by title 17, in complete or substantially complete form, by any means, including by means of download, transmission, or otherwise, including the provision of a link or aggregated links to other sites or Internet resources for obtaining such copies for accessing such performance or displays

      The bill applies to any infringement, including noncommercial infringement.
      The bill applies to a site that "enables or facilitates" infringement, which includes for example completely lawful sites with one-or-more links to other sites that have infringing materials. And of course this applies to any sort of torrent indexer like Piratebay.
      The bill applies to sites outside the United States, including sites and content which are completely lawful in the countries where they reside... the bill directs that foreign websites mush comply with US copyright law and that foreign websites shall be shut down if they fail to comply with US copyright law.

      Those provisions of the law are unable to shutdown foreign websites hosted under foreign top level domains, so the bill so far as to say US ISPs must institute a mandatory filtering system to block people in the US from viewing any foreign website that the US government objects to.

      The Great Firewall of America. Oh joy.

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
    13. Re:Checks and Balances are soooo 1900's by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1
      Okay, that is different from what TFA said. On the other hand, it would be damned near impossible to prove that most torrent sites out there today are

      (A) primarily designed, has no demonstrable, commercially significant purpose or use other than, or is marketed by its operator, or by a person acting in concert with the operator, to offer -

      (i) goods or services in violation of title 17, United States Code, or enable or facilitate a violation of title 17, United States Code, including by offering or providing access to, without the authorization of the copyright owner or otherwise by operation of law, copies of, or public performance or display of, works protected by title 17, in complete or substantially complete form, by any means, including by means of download, transmission, or otherwise, including the provision of a link or aggregated links to other sites or Internet resources for obtaining such copies for accessing such performance or displays

      The bill applies to any infringement, including noncommercial infringement. The bill applies to a site that "enables or facilitates" infringement, which includes for example completely lawful sites with one-or-more links to other sites that have infringing materials. And of course this applies to any sort of torrent indexer like Piratebay.

      No, it only applies to sites that are "primarily designed as" such, or that don't have another significant purpose.

      Even sites that right now, today, have a majority of links to infringing material, still would not fall under this because (A) they weren't "primarily designed" for infringing, and (B) they have significant other uses (i.e., to distribute legal material).

    14. Re:Checks and Balances are soooo 1900's by Alsee · · Score: 1

      You and I are focused more on the technology, and that it is wrong to criminalize legitimate uses and innocent people just to make it easier to go after infringement. Unfortunately legislators and the courts take a more jaundiced view. The clause defining what is targeted is phrased as a catch-all "or". Piratebay by virtue of the name itself immediately runs afoul of "marketed by its operator, or by a person acting in concert with the operator, to offer [infringing goods]". And as established by the Grokster ruling an absurd level of care is necessary to avoid tripping over this. The operator must be careful not to acknowledge the existence of the infringing material, and gets burned if even the lowest level individuals posting in a forum acknowledge infringing materials or in any way assist someone who may appears to be infringing. They are are toast if anyone "working in concert" with them trips up with careless statements. "Primarily designed" is wildly open to argument in a courtroom, and can go very badly if a majority of links are to infringing material.

      And in particular note that you incorrectly quoted "significant other uses". This law does everything it can dragging the line away from that pesky Betamax ruling. If they can't nail you for an ambiguous "primarily designed", and if they can't nail you for careless public statements admitting encouraging or assisting infringement, then they water down "significant other purposes" into demonstrable and commercially significant purpose. A legitimate purpose isn't good enough, it must be commercially significant purpose. And you can't simply rely on the fact that there are a multitude of legitimate and valuable uses, you need to actually demonstrate the legitimate uses are actually being made by your userbase, and demonstrate how commercially significant they are.

      The Betamax standard crucially relies upon a strong and sympathetic focus on legitimate uses. Even under that standard it is all too easy for legitimate uses to be disregarded as insignificant if the focus is placed on objectionable activities. Trying to re-write the standard as "demonstrable commercially significant" badly undermines the presumption that legitimate activities are (and remain) lawful.

      It's basically a conflict between two approaches. On one hand there is the presumption that legitimate activity inherently legitimate and legal, that you specifically target people and activities that are criminal. On the other hand there's the approach that you put the innocent and the guilty on an equal scale, where you say it's ok if it's more convenient to knowingly harm and criminalize innocent people, that it's ok so long as the law enforcement benefits 51% outweigh the harm to the innocent. And of course "demonstrable, commercially significant purpose" carries the insane presumption that criminalizing innocent people doesn't count as harm, that criminalizing technology itself doesn't count as harm. It makes explicitly-commercial-harm the ruling standard for criminalizing activities and technologies.

      If VCRs and photocopiers were invented today they would have a very precarious time getting established under this law. Their "primary design" would be attacked. Marketing materials and other statements would be run through a fine tooth comb for anything that could be interpreted as encouraging or advertising the ability to make infringing copies. And it would be far from trivial to demonstrate how much of your userbase's actual activities were non-infringing and commercially significant. In fact that would have a deadly chilling effect against introducing VCRs or photocopiers or any other new technology in the first place, because it is impossible to to know for certain what will happen until after you spend all of the money to develop and market the product. A company can do nothing wrong, it doesn't matter that a product has a million legitimate uses, a company can lose all of the money spend developing, marketing, and producing a product and furthermo

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
    15. Re:Checks and Balances are soooo 1900's by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      a nation governed by three equal branches of government that each work to ensure the other branches are not overstepping their bounds.

      that works, in theory.. except when there is collusion between the three branches of government to all overstep by leaps and bounds at the same time. and that happens, in a big way, at least once a generation.

  4. No kidding by Hatta · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Leahy said in a statement. "Protecting intellectual property is not uniquely a Democratic or Republican priority -- it is a bipartisan priority."

    In other words, if you believe in Copyright reform, you have no choices at the polls.

    --
    Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    1. Re:No kidding by h4rr4r · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Of course, both US parties are Corporatist. Any differences are just to make it look like you have a choice.

    2. Re:No kidding by Darkness404 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Which is why it is important to either have a very limited government that wouldn't let these abuses happen or allow for party-list based proportional representation in order to get people involved in politics and generate good government. Our current electoral system is great with very limited government and an even more limited federal government, but it isn't the 1830s anymore, the federal government is huge and this duopoly of parties only encourages political apathy. Party-list proportional representation means that everyone at least has -someone- representing their beliefs in congress, rather than people simply voting for the "lesser evil".

      --
      Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
    3. Re:No kidding by nine-times · · Score: 1

      That's not the only part of that quote I would want to question. Why is this a priority?

      We have all kinds of problems in this country, so why is it a big priority for the government to help a handful of industries deal with petty civil disputes? I bet golf courses all over this country have problems with trespassing, but we don't make it a "bipartisan priority" in Congress to have law enforcement respond to trespassing complaints more quickly.

    4. Re:No kidding by youngone · · Score: 2, Informative

      Quite right, here's another word for Corporatist: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism Have a look at the first couple of lines.

    5. Re:No kidding by hitmark · · Score: 1

      big oil and big media, take your pick because either way your getting shafted...

      --
      comment first, facts later. http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
    6. Re:No kidding by kindbud · · Score: 1

      Which is why it is important to either have a very limited government that wouldn't let these abuses happen...

      Let's think for a second about what a very limited, practically powerless government will be able to do to prevent any abuse the corporate world wants to impose. Will it be empowered to at least write a sternly-worded letter? Because a sternly-worded letter will at least make them think twice before doing what they were going to do anyway, won't it?

      ... or allow for party-list based proportional representation in order to get people involved in politics and generate good government.

      I guarantee making voting more complicated is not the answer. You need an educated, informed electorate first. But if you have that, playing silly games with the ballot won't be necessary.

      --
      Edith Keeler Must Die
    7. Re:No kidding by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Labels are just labels.

      North Korea claims to be democratic, but that doesn't imply that democracy means a cultish police state run by an insane dictator.

      Similarly, the indisputable and unfortunate fact that both Democrats and Republicans value the profits of corporations more than the individual's right to make free use of his/her culture does not mean that the USA is on a slippery slope to jackboots and concentration camps.

    8. Re:No kidding by Darkness404 · · Score: 3, Interesting
      Corporate power is, by nature, less powerful than a tyrannical, omnipotent state. Without a powerful state to back it up, a corporation -has- no power not given to it by its citizens, and citizens can reduce the power of a corporation in a blink of an eye compared to power of a government.

      A corporation requires money and resources, without that it dies. In a free market, no one is forced to pay for anything they don't want, this is in sharp contrast with a government where you -have- to pay for things, even if you don't want them. For example, if you disagree with Wal-Mart's hiring practices, you don't have to shop there, they don't get any of your money or support. On the other hand, if you oppose the war in Iraq, you still have to pay for the bullets or else go to prison.

      Given a free enough market, corporations won't become tyrannical because of the fact that the market balances itself out. Even the "worst" monopoly was broken up in essence by market forces (the government breakup of Standard Oil was not needed because it no longer was even close to a monopoly at the time of its breakup). Anytime you see a monopoly, it either A) Is government imposed (postal service, utilities, etc), B) No need for competition (as in, if no one thought hamburgers would be profitable and therefore McDonalds was the only store selling hamburgers) or C) Is very temporary.

      The problem is, our government is not free enough, when boiled down to a government whos only job is to protect against fraud and force both corporations and consumers win. Consumers win because they are free to screw the corporations, for example, no DMCA and most likely no (or very, very limited) copyright. Corporations win because they are free to innovate and expand beyond government constraints artificially limiting them. Consumers also have more choice, imagine if all the oil in the world was monopolized and there was incredibly high prices, a few things would have happened, either A) we'd find new sources of oil or more likely B) We'd develop things that didn't need oil thus pushing oil prices down further leading to a loss of that monopoly. Corporations also can provide infrastructure, if Company X needs to have an airport near Nowheresville, they will build an airport, because they can't utilize all of it 24/7, they rent it out to private airlines, therefore, suddenly Nowheresville has an airport and gets more trade without government waste.

      I guarantee making voting more complicated is not the answer. You need an educated, informed electorate first. But if you have that, playing silly games with the ballot won't be necessary.

      Look at countries with high voter turnout, almost all of them use the solution I'm proposing, for example, the US only has a 54% voter turnout, on the other hand, look at Sweden with 86% voter turnout because they use proportional voting.

      Proportional representation is the easiest way to make sure that people's vote counts. Just because you don't agree with 50% of people, doesn't mean your voice shouldn't be heard. The idea that people vote politically based on the surrounding area is outdated, it worked before the civil war, where industries were tied to certain geographical areas. But they aren't.

      --
      Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
    9. Re:No kidding by Luckyo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Just because German version of fascist nazi government came with concentration camps, doesn't mean that every version does. This is very much the same for democracy, which was very different back in ancient Greece where it was born, or in revolutionary France where core beliefs of modern Western society were defined.

      Nontheless it is beyond any shadow of doubt that elements of fascism in Western world have been on significant increase ever seen the end of Cold War, as power shifted from people-run government to corporation-run government.

      Which is by definition, fascism. Your scare of concentration camps came from nazism and nazi ideals. WW2 Germany had both. Fascist part wasn't much prettier then nazi part mind you, just like our democratic fascism isn't pretty.

    10. Re:No kidding by mr_mischief · · Score: 1

      No, really, they aren't. They're Statists. They think the State is the important thing, and that the people are here to benefit the government and the party in power. They don't care about corporations any more than they care about people, except when corporations help keep them in power. They want power, and the MPAA and RIAA member companies control the media outlets that do the evening news, too. For career politicians, it's all about keeping the cushy job as near the top as possible.

    11. Re:No kidding by kindbud · · Score: 1

      The problem is, our government is not free enough, when boiled down to a government whos only job is to protect against fraud and force both corporations and consumers win.

      No, the problem is your silly libertarianism, which somehow makes you believe that a government powerful enough to protect against fraud and illegitimate use of force, won't be powerful enough to become that "tyrannical, omnipotent state" you fear so much. And one that is not powerful enough to become a "tyrannical, omnipotent state" can't do jack squat about preventing or punishing fraud or illegitimate use of force. Because - get this - when people commit fraud, they try to hide it. So to protect against fraud, your enforcement agency needs to have the power to force people to do things and reveal things they want to keep secret. That means it must have bigger guns than the fraudsters have, and a populace that wants to have this protection backing it up.

      Sorry, your ideology and the conclusions it leads to, is retarded.

      look at Sweden with 86% voter turnout because they use proportional voting.

      Yeah, look at Sweden with its powerful central government.

      Get your story straight.

      --
      Edith Keeler Must Die
    12. Re:No kidding by mr_mischief · · Score: 1

      I propose a government very limited in scope of power and size of civilian agencies, but with a very broad option of stern enforcement for issues that really need intervention.

      You leaked a movie? You get sued. The government supplies the court, but is not the plaintiff. You sell a defective product? You get sued, and maybe the government asks you to do a recall.

      Let's look deeper at more limited scope and less limited power for infractions with a concrete example. There are lots of industries that get inspected regularly by the government, usually at the public's expense. Any company should not sell a known dangerous product (I'm talking about dangerous to the user as used properly, not banning guns, fuels, fireworks, alcohol, knives, cars, or anything else just because they can be misused). Companies above a certain size or any publicly traded company should probably even to the positive know their products are safe, to the best of their ability.

      Does that mean the government should employ testers at taxpayer expense? Not necessarily. Under a smaller but sterner government it means that the companies should be hiring independent testing clearinghouse companies to test their products, like UL. If there's not one available, they should pay a government lab cash to test it. Research universities with big labs could make some cash to offset the cost of tuition by having some faculty and student time doing safety testing which serves the common good and teaches useful applicable methods of engineering research. If you make screenings like that mandatory, it's not a matter of raising taxes and how big your government is. It's a matter of a capitalist system paying its own way by in most cases hiring other capitalist companies. Only the independent testing company needs close scrutiny by the government.

      What if someone sell a dangerously defective product on purpose? Their case gets bumped up to criminal, everyone at the company who knew about it gets arraigned for criminal endangerment, the company has to pay for fixes or replacements even if a customer chooses a competing product, and if they try to fight that decision and lose then the company is liquidated or the penalties go to the customers who purchased the products as a controlling portion of company stock split among them. If there's an independent safety lab that was paid not to be so independent, then do the same to them. If you make penalties like that, you don't get a lot of abuses that even call for product screening by the government at taxpayer expense.

      Right now the USDA and the FDA deal with food and drugs by sending out very few inspection teams and doing very few tests. Most drug studies are done t the hospitals at research universities or at other top-tier medical facilities mostly independent from the drug companies. Most slaughterhouses and food processing plants have little federal, state, or local oversight at all. Some of the cleanest food processing facilities are those handling corn meal, corn starch, and wheat flour (because they are all potentially explosive if dispersed just right in the air) and sites inspected by rabbis. Why rabbis? Because the inspections necessary to get a kosher seal are more frequent than most state-backed inspections, and any careful set of eyes is better than none. The government inspections help, but they don't keep us very safe. Look at spinach, peanut butter, eggs, and all the drug recalls the last few years. Go ahead, Google the recalls. What really helps is that once companies do get caught, they get fines and shutdowns -- after there's actual evidence of wrongdoing and not just an accusation and a court order, of course.

      Why is it that the public has an interest in paying to make sure what we buy is safe? Aren't we already paying the companies to provide us products that are market-worthy? Isn't there a contract when they sell us something that it is suitable for sale?

      Therefore, if a company is selling us unsafe products, we shouldn't pay more for the product through ta

    13. Re:No kidding by HungryHobo · · Score: 1

      "makes you believe that a government powerful enough to protect against fraud and illegitimate use of force, won't be powerful enough to become that "tyrannical, omnipotent state" "

      While George Carlin's "you have no rights" makes some good points what, right now, is keeping the government from ceasing all your property, having you raped to death and harvesting your organs?
      A large number of rules and regulations, many based on the bill of rights or constitution which truss the government up and limit what it can do, not physically and not perfectly but it's power is still limited to an extent.

      A government can be extremely powerful while still bound such that it cannot use that power in many proscribed ways.
      there will then of course be a constant drift as it tries to expand it's influence and push the bounds of what it can do and people have to push back but that's a problem with any system.

      "Sorry, your ideology and the conclusions it leads to, is retarded."

      Anything is when all you attack is your own pitiful imaginary strawman.

    14. Re:No kidding by kendbluze · · Score: 1

      Perhaps if only natural persons, as individuals, could make campaign and other political contributions...with a cap, something like one-tenth of the annual poverty level for a family of four, or some such figure indexed to an amount that represents a natural reflection of the average economic life of all of us taken together. What a fantasy...

    15. Re:No kidding by mr_mischief · · Score: 1

      The MPAA is not just made up of movie studios. It is media conglomerates which operate movie studios, TV networks, news papers, news websites, magazines, and radio stations. Often they even publish books, which you might have thought if you weren't paying attention were special and done by companies with a special tie to independent thinkers as their customers.

      The RIAA is the same sort of companies, and more often than not owned by the same conglomerates as the MPAA. So it's not really even two trade organizations for two industries. It's two trade organizations for two faces of the same industry.

      General Electric is a $157 billion dollar a year company which owns NBC, Telemundo, Universal Pictures, Focus Features, 26 actual television stations in the US, cable networks MSNBC, Bravo, and SyFy. They also own 80% of NBC Universal, which means Oxygen, USA, and the Weather Channel. They also happen to make a lot of the electronics themselves, as well as jets, electric turbines for hydro power, jet engines, etc etc etc.

      The $36 billion dollar last year Disney owns not just the Disney Channel, but ABC, ESPN, SOAP Net, A&E, 277 radio stations, and a whole lot more. You probably guess they owned Walt Disney Records, but what about Lyric Street Records and Hollywood Records? Sure, they own Walt Disney Pictures and Walt Disney Animation Studios, and DisenyToon Studios. They Touchstone Pictures, Hollywood Pictures, Miramax Films, though. They have their theme parks and their Disney stores in malls. Maybe you thought they got publishers to publish books about Disney's characters, maybe even paying to have them published since they are so profitable. Did you know, though, that they are the world's single largest publisher of children's books? They own Disney Libri and Disney Press of course, but also Hyperion Books for Children and Jump at the Sun.

      You probably knew that the people who bring you Family Guy, Fox Sports, and Fox News were all part of the $30 billion dollar-per-year News Corporation. You maybe even made the 20th Century Fox, Fox Searchlight, and FX connections. What about the New York Post, the Wall Street Journal, TV Guide, Barron's, Smart Money, Blue Sky Studios, Speed network, all the National Geographic properties, The Indian family of TV networks known as Star, Stats.com sports info website, MarketWatch, Sky satellite companies, Dow Jones, Sunday Times of the Uk and Australia, The Times of London, and a large share of the National Rugby League? Did you notice that one of the major players in newspapers and news TV also owns the major financial reporting properties Fox Business, The Wall Street Journal, and MarketWatch? Did you also notice they control the business and financial journalism property that actually calculates and reports the single most-often cited market index in the US, Dow Jones, which reports the Dow Jones Industrial Average (and decides who is part of it) which the other news outlets then report in turn every single weekday? Harper Collins has been the publisher for books by Mark Twain, C.S. Lewis, Charles Dickens, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., JFK, Tolkien, and H.G. Wells. Now they are just an arm of the folks that bring you The Simpsons.

      Time Warner brought in $28.8 billion last year. They own Warner Brothers, of course, along with Turner Classic Movies, TBS, and Time magazine. They now longer own Time Warner Cable, since they spun that out. They still share a headquarters building with them. They also own, though, HBO, CNN, TNT, Cinemax, TruTV, Cartoon Network, and all the affiliated networks like CNN International, and regional versions of several of these networks around the world. They also, of course, own TV production companies and content distribution companies for movies and TV besides the networks and movie studios. New Line Television, Telepictures Production, Warner Home Video, and of course anything that says HBO or Warner that distributes but isn't already named above. They own AOL (actually AOL bought them and changed the name to Time War

    16. Re:No kidding by dryeo · · Score: 1

      Corporate power is, by nature, less powerful than a tyrannical, omnipotent state. Without a powerful state to back it up, a corporation -has- no power not given to it by its citizens, and citizens can reduce the power of a corporation in a blink of an eye compared to power of a government.

      But a corporation can be more powerful than a weak state.

      A corporation requires money and resources, without that it dies. In a free market, no one is forced to pay for anything they don't want, this is in sharp contrast with a government where you -have- to pay for things, even if you don't want them. For example, if you disagree with Wal-Mart's hiring practices, you don't have to shop there, they don't get any of your money or support. On the other hand, if you oppose the war in Iraq, you still have to pay for the bullets or else go to prison.

      If a large enough group of people refuse to pay for the bullets the government has little choice but to except that. The problem is when the majority is OK with buying bullets to kill.
      Without government strength Wal-Mart will push all competitors out of business, either by underselling them or bringing in a company such as the Pinkerton detective agency (which had more detectives then the US regular army at one point) to bully the competition into folding. At that point your choices are to starve or shop at Wal-Mart. Also to sell your goods to Wal-Mart at the price they set.
      History has shown that is exactly what corporations do with a weak government.

      Given a free enough market, corporations won't become tyrannical because of the fact that the market balances itself out. Even the "worst" monopoly was broken up in essence by market forces (the government breakup of Standard Oil was not needed because it no longer was even close to a monopoly at the time of its breakup). Anytime you see a monopoly, it either A) Is government imposed (postal service, utilities, etc), B) No need for competition (as in, if no one thought hamburgers would be profitable and therefore McDonalds was the only store selling hamburgers) or C) Is very temporary.

      A corporation will do everything it can to do away with a free market. Whether hiring their own private army or subverting the government.
      They may only have a temporary monopoly but when it lasts generations it is still too long.

      The problem is, our government is not free enough, when boiled down to a government whos only job is to protect against fraud and force both corporations and consumers win. Consumers win because they are free to screw the corporations, for example, no DMCA and most likely no (or very, very limited) copyright. Corporations win because they are free to innovate and expand beyond government constraints artificially limiting them.

      History shows otherwise. Without a strong government then corporations are free to do whatever it takes to become a monopoly and abuse people.

      Consumers also have more choice, imagine if all the oil in the world was monopolized and there was incredibly high prices, a few things would have happened, either A) we'd find new sources of oil or more likely B) We'd develop things that didn't need oil thus pushing oil prices down further leading to a loss of that monopoly.

      Why would corporations allow that?

      Corporations also can provide infrastructure, if Company X needs to have an airport near Nowheresville, they will build an airport, because they can't utilize all of it 24/7, they rent it out to private airlines, therefore, suddenly Nowheresville has an airport and gets more trade without government waste.

      No the Corporation will not borrow the large amount of money to build an airport, they'll just locate at Somewheresville as it is more cost effective.

      I guarantee making voting more complicated is not the answer. You need

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    17. Re:No kidding by Burz · · Score: 1

      Corporate power is, by nature, less powerful than a tyrannical, omnipotent state.

      Similar arguments can be made that most resources (incl. weapons) are controlled by the corporate sector which therefore has ultimate control over the government and the rest of society. You also don't address the trend for corporations to turn to other corporations like Blackwater with armed workers for their "security". And the government is so outsourced that the corporate system essentially applies force for its own ends.

      The corporate aristocracy is the heart of the problem. They insist on control without the visibility or responsibility that official titles bring. When everything is provided as a "service" - even voting - democracy is reduced to window dressing and crime is practically redefined as "something the nobodies and poor people do".

    18. Re:No kidding by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's independents and the Pirate Party. (Looks a bit underfunded and way undermanned, but there's an actual pirate-party.us website.) Of course unless they can get enough official petition support, it's going to have to be a write-in vote. As it with the tickets now, both mainstream parties are bought out and pretty much have worthless political hacks running for office.

      Other than your vote, you can also support rights advocate groups like the EFF.

    19. Re:No kidding by Kjella · · Score: 1

      Given a free enough market, corporations won't become tyrannical because of the fact that the market balances itself out.

      Please don't spread ideological fanaticism as fact. It's getting rather hard for you to see the world with those blinds on.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    20. Re:No kidding by Jedi+Alec · · Score: 1

      Corporate power is, by nature, less powerful than a tyrannical, omnipotent state. Without a powerful state to back it up, a corporation -has- no power not given to it by its citizens, and citizens can reduce the power of a corporation in a blink of an eye compared to power of a government.

      I'm a corporation with a couple dumptrucks full of toxic waste. You're a private citizen with a back garden that has a stream crossing through it. My toxic waste is now in your back yard.

      So what are you gonna do, punk? Cry to the government? Socialist!

      --

      People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
    21. Re:No kidding by metacell · · Score: 1

      Corporate power is, by nature, less powerful than a tyrannical, omnipotent state. Without a powerful state to back it up, a corporation -has- no power not given to it by its citizens, and citizens can reduce the power of a corporation in a blink of an eye compared to power of a government.

      It's not as simple as you make it out. Even in a minimal state, a powerful corporation can oppress citizens through lawsuits and by buying legislation, much in the same way they do today. An individual can't protect themselves against that by choosing another corporation to buy from.

      Reducing the power of a corporation by boycotting them only works if a very large number of people decide to do it at the same time, and may put those participating in the boycott at a substantial disadvantage until they succeed or give up.

      I do, however, agree that it is vital to withdraw government support to private corporations, since it's probably the most important reason they become inefficient and oppressive monopolies.

      Look at countries with high voter turnout, almost all of them use the solution I'm proposing, for example, the US only has a 54% voter turnout, on the other hand, look at Sweden with 86% voter turnout because they use proportional voting.

      Yes, the Swedish system gives the voters a decent chance to start a new party and get it elected into the national parliament. It happened just a few days ago with the Swedish Democratic Party, and it happened in the 90's with the Environmental (Green) Party.

      The Swedish system isn't perfectly proportional, though. It works by awarding a mandate (seat) in parliament to any candidate who gains a certain number of votes in the municipal elections. Then "equalisation mandates" are awarded to each party to make the number of mandates proportional to the number of party votes nation-wide. But with the increasing number of parties in the parliament, there are too few equalisation mandates.

    22. Re:No kidding by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would call Guantanamo as a good start.

    23. Re:No kidding by Kvasio · · Score: 1

      ... both US parties are Coprophiliacs? Disgusting.

    24. Re:No kidding by Darkness404 · · Score: 1

      But a corporation can be more powerful than a weak state.

      More powerful, possibly, more abusive? No.

      Even a weak state has powers not given to the most powerful of corporations, such as the ability to lay taxes, to imprison people, etc.

      If a large enough group of people refuse to pay for the bullets the government has little choice but to except that. The problem is when the majority is OK with buying bullets to kill.

      Um, no. Look back at Vietnam, there was a -huge- amount of opposition but they didn't hardly do anything about it. Look at copyright, look at marijuana legalization, etc. The idea that a powerful government would back town in the face of opposition by its people is laughable. Historically it has not happened.

      Plus, remember in the age of fiat, worthless currency in essence the government doesn't need your tax dollars, it can print their own money.

      Why would corporations allow that?

      Because it allows them to sell products to consumers easier. If I sell a car and only 3% of the population can afford it, I'm not making a very good product. On the other hand, say I make it be well-done solar car and then 95% of the population can afford it, I'm making money and getting marketshare. The reason why we haven't seen stuff like that done is because oil is insanely abundant and moderately priced.

      Corporations want to make a profit, it is in their best interest to make things beneficial to consumers. When they do that, they make a profit, consumers get quality goods at low prices and corporations gain profit.

      Without government strength Wal-Mart will push all competitors out of business, either by underselling them or bringing in a company such as the Pinkerton detective agency (which had more detectives then the US regular army at one point) to bully the competition into folding. At that point your choices are to starve or shop at Wal-Mart. Also to sell your goods to Wal-Mart at the price they set. History has shown that is exactly what corporations do with a weak government.

      But what you don't seem to get is that a weak government (we are talking not about physical weakness, we are talking about a government with only two duties, protect citizens from force such as maintaining a courts system and making laws against force such as murder, rape, theft, etc. maintaining an army, etc. and protect its citizens from fraud such as maintaining a civil courts system and allowing consumers to sue corporations for misleading advertising, breaking contracts, etc. We aren't talking about a government with a cap on how big it can get at a certain number of people, but rather a government that doesn't interfere in daily life. A limited government, much like how the US was envisioned) the Pinkertons would either be stopped by the government (using force/fraud to intimidate) or by natural market forces (if Wal-Mart can sell this for $10 and make a $1 profit, I can sell it directly to consumers using mail-order/internet/etc. for only $9) plus, there is a limit to what Wal-Mart carries. For example, Wal-Mart only has a limited amount of PC hardware and video games. I need to go to Newegg or a similar specialty store to get what I really need for PC hardware and a games store to get video games. Wal-Mart can't threaten those because there is a limit to their employee's expertise.

      If anything Wal-Mart stimulates an economy, for example, in my town after Wal-Mart was built there was a surge of tax revenue, more businesses opened up shop and there were no unexpected "mom and pop" shops that folded in the following years.

      No the Corporation will not borrow the large amount of money to build an airport, they'll just locate at Somewheresville as it is more cost effective.

      What about resources? For example, if you need to mine limestone, you have to be near a limestone quarry, if there is no limestone in Somewheresville, its silly to move there to mine it.

      --
      Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
    25. Re:No kidding by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Which is by definition, fascism. Your scare of concentration camps came from nazism and nazi ideals. WW2 Germany had both. Fascist part wasn't much prettier then nazi part mind you, just like our democratic fascism isn't pretty.

      We already have concentration camps. Or did you forget about the train stations with the barbed wire pointing inward, and the man-width queue lines painted by the railroad tracks? Indeed we even had a period of our history where we ran them like the Germans did. Trail of tears, anyone? Instead of fenced camps we drove whole peoples into areas too small to sustain them. By the time we were incarcerating our Japanese, though, such things had become bad publicity. Hopefully the next time around will go even better, and not worse.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    26. Re:No kidding by JohnnyBGod · · Score: 1

      Portugal has a similar voter turnout to the US, even with proportional representation, so either a) we Portuguese are outliers or b) that assertion is wrong.

    27. Re:No kidding by alexo · · Score: 1

      In other words, if you believe in Copyright reform, you have no choices at the polls.

      Yes, you do. Vote independent.

  5. One step forward, two steps back by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Business groups including the US Chamber of Commerce hailed the legislation as a huge step forward.

    Yeah, a step forward for keeping their business models from dying off, thus preventing them from having to actually work to come up with new ones.

    Meanwhile, this COULD be used to stamp out any site the US Government or the MAFIAA dislike. WikiLeaks? "Piracy." BAM, blocked. YouTube? "Piracy." BAM, blocked.

    A step forward for government protectionism of failing business models, two steps back for free speech on the Internet.

    1. Re:One step forward, two steps back by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Business groups including the US Chamber of Commerce hailed the legislation as a huge step forward.

      Yeah, a step forward for keeping their business models from dying off, thus preventing them from having to actually work to come up with new ones.

      Meanwhile, this COULD be used to stamp out any site the US Government or the MAFIAA dislike. WikiLeaks? "Piracy." BAM, blocked. YouTube? "Piracy." BAM, blocked.

      A step forward for government protectionism of failing business models, two steps back for free speech on the Internet.

      so right

    2. Re:One step forward, two steps back by pauljlucas · · Score: 1

      Yeah, a step forward for keeping their business models from dying off, thus preventing them from having to actually work to come up with new ones.

      I keep reading about "failed business models" and "finding new ones" but nobody ever suggests what such a new business model might actually be and how it would work.

      --
      If you reply, do so only to what I explicitly wrote. If I didn't write it, don't assume or infer it.
    3. Re:One step forward, two steps back by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Meanwhile, this COULD be used to stamp out any site the US Government or the MAFIAA dislike. WikiLeaks? "Piracy." BAM, blocked.

      Come on. The US government doubtless heartily wishes Mr Assange would die in a fire, and the CIA is probably purchasing matches as we speak, but I would hope that it is smart enough to realise you can't fight the Streisand effect simply by blocking access to one website from within one country.

      YouTube? "Piracy." BAM, blocked.

      "Oops, now nobody is watching our trailers or music videos any more. I think liked my foot better without the bullet holes." BAM, unblocked again.

    4. Re:One step forward, two steps back by Andorin · · Score: 1

      > I keep reading about "failed business models" and "finding new ones" but nobody ever suggests what such a new business model might actually be and how it would work.
      Because it's not my job. If a business is failing, the responsibility for finding a new business model is on them, not the general public. Businesses don't get free rides; if they can't financially succeed, they get to fail.

      --
      That Anonymous Coward guy is pretty annoying. Can we have the government censor him or something?
    5. Re:One step forward, two steps back by pauljlucas · · Score: 1

      Because it's not my job.

      And that's a cop-out.

      --
      If you reply, do so only to what I explicitly wrote. If I didn't write it, don't assume or infer it.
    6. Re:One step forward, two steps back by CelticWhisper · · Score: 1

      It's also the truth. Just because it happens to be a convenient truth doesn't make it any less true. It is not the responsibility of the customer to keep the business afloat: it is, rather, the responsibility of the business to figure out how to keep the customer happy and thus stay afloat. If they can't do it, then tough. That's the reality of the free market that big-L Libertarians and Republicans and various other politically-involved types keep singing about. Another business will step in to replace the one that was too (old|top-heavy|unadaptable|inefficient|etc.) to survive. And the world keeps turning.

      --
      Help protect civil rights from abuse by the TSA - visit TSA News Blog.
      http://www.tsanewsblog.com
    7. Re:One step forward, two steps back by pauljlucas · · Score: 1
      I'm asking you to pretend you personally are a major record label or movie-studio executive. What would you do?

      Anything short of a description of a new business model is still a cop-out and simply a smoke-screen that you've got nothing. How do you even know that such a "new business model" is possible? If it's not possible, then you're being unrealistic.

      --
      If you reply, do so only to what I explicitly wrote. If I didn't write it, don't assume or infer it.
    8. Re:One step forward, two steps back by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      Yeah, a step forward for keeping their business models from dying off, thus preventing them from having to actually work to come up with new ones.

      First you have to demonstrate that their business model is flawed or failed. Your belief that you should not have to respect existing copyright laws does not constitute such a demonstration.

    9. Re:One step forward, two steps back by Andorin · · Score: 1

      > I'm asking you to pretend you personally are a major record label or movie-studio executive. What would you do?
      Draw upon the years of experience with the market that I would hopefully have as the executive of a major record label or a movie studio and conceive a new business model.

      The point being that you really cannot ask someone who doesn't have that experience and knowledge what someone with that experience and knowledge can do.

      > How do you even know that such a "new business model" is possible? If it's not possible, then you're being unrealistic.
      If it's not possible, the industries need to die. Sorry. Better to have no major movie studios than to have unjust abuses of copyright by said studios.

      --
      That Anonymous Coward guy is pretty annoying. Can we have the government censor him or something?
    10. Re:One step forward, two steps back by causality · · Score: 1

      Because it's not my job.

      And that's a cop-out.

      If you believe that, then the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate why the reinvention of a failing business belongs to anyone other than the owners and employees of that business.

      It's not his job because he has not entered into a contract that would pay him monetary compensation for saving the failed business model. You want him to perform valuable work for free? Like I said, if you think this is reasonable then the burden of proof is on you.

      So what will it be? Demonstrate that he should work for free to save a business he does not own and is not employed by? Or admit that your accusation of "cop-out" is mistaken and amounts to nothing other than a knee-jerk? Methinks you have painted yourself into a corner.

      I await your reply.

      --
      It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
    11. Re:One step forward, two steps back by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If it's not possible, it's time for them to go away. The burden is on them. I owe them nothing.

    12. Re:One step forward, two steps back by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If your business model depends on government-granted copyright monopolies, it is flawed because I will make it fail. I don't even want to watch most pirated movies, but it's my moral duty to bring copyright monopoly law and the us corporate reich down. The USA must be defanged and forced to defederate. Economic ruin is the means to that end. It's their own fault for investing so much in imaginary property in the first place.

    13. Re:One step forward, two steps back by pauljlucas · · Score: 1

      I'm asking precisely because I don't think he (or anyone) can come up with a brand new business model that the world has never seen before. There are ownership models, rental models, subscription models, and perhaps one or two others. That's pretty much it. Saying that the record labels or studios need to come up with a new business model is a disingenuous argument.

      --
      If you reply, do so only to what I explicitly wrote. If I didn't write it, don't assume or infer it.
    14. Re:One step forward, two steps back by causality · · Score: 1

      I'm asking precisely because I don't think he (or anyone) can come up with a brand new business model that the world has never seen before. There are ownership models, rental models, subscription models, and perhaps one or two others. That's pretty much it. Saying that the record labels or studios need to come up with a new business model is a disingenuous argument.

      Or ... a new business model would be, by definition, new and therefore not before seen, rendering your references to existing models such as ownership, rental, and subscription completely irrelevant by your own words. If you are claiming that it is not possible to come up with a new business model, backing that up would amount to proving a negative so it is safe to consider this notion invalid. That leaves the alternative notion of these businesses either dying or reinventing themselves, and I don't personally care which happens.

      Then there's this other blatantly obvious thing: why would they come up with something new when they have acquired so much political power focused on preserving what is old? Do you not understand the connection between their adamant insistence on clinging to what is old, and their refusal to come up with something new? They have a finite amount of resources. Every resource invested in lobbying for draconian copyright laws is a resource that could have been put towards innovation. They are their own worst enemies here.

      You have failed to address my objections. You have succeeded only in attempting to distract attention away from them. Most of all, you have utterly failed to explain why someone who does not own a business and is not employed by that business has any obligation to reinvent that business. Did you think that was just going to go away if you ignored it? Are you afraid to respond to that, or did you imagine I wouldn't notice your failure to address my explcit challenge? Either address that point or admit that you can't. Otherwise you, sir, are not being honest.

      This is my second request. I again await your reply. If you can respond to what I have asked twice now, it would be a substantial improvement. Until then, you are as disingenuous as anyone you claim to oppose.

      --
      It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
    15. Re:One step forward, two steps back by zzyzx · · Score: 1

      I actually came up with one once - a subscription service that allows unlimited mp3 downloads with the monthly costs split up by percentage of downloads. While would customers pay the $10? Well first a limited subscription could be built into the cost of an MP3 player to get people addicted to having access to anything without even having to search for it. But the second part of this is to have a contest system where only registered members could vote for various bands. The winner would get a prize. So if I'm a huge fan of a band and they ask me to go and vote for them, I'm going to be tempted to keep my membership active.

    16. Re:One step forward, two steps back by Cederic · · Score: 1

      Give me 10% of revenue and I'll give you half a dozen new business models.

      You may not like them, they may not be ethical and they may not be profitable. But I'll innovate and I'll grab my 10% of your revenue.

      What, I should work for free? But that's the inverse of the media distribution companies, that seem to think they should get revenue for doing fuck all.

      At least I'm offering to try and help, instead of bribing politicians to legislate against my competition and suing my customers.

    17. Re:One step forward, two steps back by Cederic · · Score: 1

      £15 for a CD containing an album released twenty years ago that costs approximately 30p in materials and maybe another £1 in distribution costs is reckless profiteering and demonstrates the inequity of current copyright laws.

      The obvious answer is to leverage the marginal cost of reproduction (zero cost at all to the content producer, as I'm paying for my own electricity, hardware and bandwidth) and give the copyright owner every penny they deserve: Fuck all.

      Hell, I bought the album 20 years ago, you want me to buy it again? You want me to pay twice as much as its list price 20 years ago to buy it for my nephew, instead of just copying it onto his USB stick?

      The business model is flawed. It's not failing anywhere near fast enough, and personally I want to encourage its failure. I think the world can survive without massive media companies sucking vast sums of money in and spending it on bad laws that inhibit online freedoms in the name of unfair profits.

      Fuck 'em.

    18. Re:One step forward, two steps back by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm asking you to pretend you personally are a major record label or movie-studio executive. What would you do?

      Kill myself

  6. What ever happened to... by Darkness404 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The new bill would give the government the authority to shut down the sites with a court order; the site owner would have to petition the court to have it lifted

    What ever happened to being innocent before guilty? In a free society, courts have to prove -you- guilty, not you have to prove your innocence.

    Isn't it time that we realized that property is not property unless it is limited and move on?

    --
    Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
    1. Re:What ever happened to... by Tablizer · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "Assumed innocent until found guilty" is criminal law. Civil issues are different.

      But what I worry about the most is its use for political censorship. Look what the church that rhymes with Pie Ontology has done using copyright laws. I hope there are added protections against that kind of abuse. The little guy can't afford boatloads of lawyers.

    2. Re:What ever happened to... by mbone · · Score: 3, Informative

      What ever happened to being innocent before guilty? In a free society, courts have to prove -you- guilty, not you have to prove your innocence.

      Ah, you haven't heard of the glories of civil law. It is, for example, how most drug law forfeitures are done - you have to prove your innocence to get the seized assets back. (I am not a lawyer, and if you have assets seized, you had better get one and not rely on /. for legal advice.)

      Why the US Court system bought into this theory is beyond me; I think that they should be ashamed of themselves (but, then, they don't ask for my opinion).

    3. Re:What ever happened to... by The+Living+Fractal · · Score: 1

      I'm afraid you're going to have to define 'limited'. While you're at it, can you think of any kind of property that isn't limited in some way? (the very nature of property itself has limits).

      --
      I do not respond to cowards. Especially anonymous ones.
    4. Re:What ever happened to... by Darkness404 · · Score: 1

      Property by nature, and property law is filled with the assumption that property is limited. For example, if I have a plow and give it to you, I no longer have a plow. But lets say I have the plans to make a plow, that no longer is limited. If I tell you how to build a plow, I can still make a plow and you can make a plow. Those plans, provided they weren't written on anything and were simply verbal plans, were not property.

      Property law would be needless if everything was like those plans, food would be infinite, water would be infinite, etc. But they are limited, thus why we need property laws.

      --
      Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
    5. Re:What ever happened to... by shentino · · Score: 1

      The US Courts don't buy, so much as get bought.

    6. Re:What ever happened to... by T+Murphy · · Score: 1

      In patent infringement cases a judge can order an injunction to force the accused infringer to stop making the product in question early on in the case*. Given the similarity of patent and copyright infringement, it makes sense that a similar policy would be used here. Of course, I doubt the requirements to get a site shut down are as high as the equivalent in patent cases, so in practice this won't be the same.

      *IANAL so I apologize for poor wording.

    7. Re:What ever happened to... by nurb432 · · Score: 1

      Presumed innocence only works in criminal court and they are trying very hard to keep these cases in the the 'civil' arena.

      --
      ---- Booth was a patriot ----
    8. Re:What ever happened to... by BlueStrat · · Score: 1

      What ever happened to being innocent before guilty? In a free society, courts have to prove -you- guilty, not you have to prove your innocence.

      Ah, you haven't heard of the glories of civil law. It is, for example, how most drug law forfeitures are done [fear.org] - you have to prove your innocence to get the seized assets back. (I am not a lawyer, and if you have assets seized, you had better get one and not rely on /. for legal advice.)

      Why the US Court system bought into this theory is beyond me; I think that they should be ashamed of themselves (but, then, they don't ask for my opinion).

      Actually IIRC it's the property itself that is charged, and not a person. Courts could theoretically choose to ignore you as you are not a party to the charge(s) and therefor have no legal standing to affect the case. I guess you could try some witchcraft to animate your property and have it file on it's own behalf, I suppose.

      Strat

      --
      Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
    9. Re:What ever happened to... by makomk · · Score: 1

      Except, of course, that preventing this kind of dishonest legal sleight-of-hand is exactly why we have courts and judges in the first place and why they have so much latitude to interpret the law. What the courts should conclude - if they were working properly - is that this argument is a load of blatant bullshit designed to obscure the fact that the plaintiff is indeed seeking relief not against your property, but against its owner.

      Oh, and they probably ought to also spot the fact that these lawsuits are fundamentally criminal and not civil in nature and that the appropriate protections should come into play.

    10. Re:What ever happened to... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, every branch of law has a presumption of innocence. Civil issues still leave the burden of proof on the accuser. You have to prove damages, you have to prove culpability. This completely circumvents the presumption of innocence and has *absolutely no business* in U.S. law.

    11. Re:What ever happened to... by russotto · · Score: 1

      Ah, you haven't heard of the glories of civil law. It is, for example, how most drug law forfeitures are done - you have to prove your innocence to get the seized assets back. (I am not a lawyer, and if you have assets seized, you had better get one and not rely on /. for legal advice.)

      Yes and no. This IS how drug law forfeitures are done. But proving your innocence does not get the seized assets back; that just keeps you from serving additional jail time. No; you have to literally sue the government and prove (the burden on YOU) that the assets are innocent.

    12. Re:What ever happened to... by mbone · · Score: 1

      Actually IIRC it's the property itself that is charged, and not a person. Courts could theoretically choose to ignore you as you are not a party to the charge(s) and therefor have no legal standing to affect the case. I guess you could try some witchcraft to animate your property and have it file on it's own behalf, I suppose.

      I am a voting citizen; the courts can choose to ignore me, but politically I have standing to make these comments.This, at its heart, is a political matter, not a legal matter.

      I have heard and read these arguments and find them totally inadequate and unconvincing. It just shows how perverted the legal system can get when it loses its connections to reality and morality. From the larger political standpoint, this is a gross abuse of both process and power, and anyone who had anything to do with it should be ashamed.

    13. Re:What ever happened to... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      isn't it about time you realised that the people who produce content need to actually be paid, and move on?
      Or are you churning out the next avatar movie at weekends for free?
      I thought not.

    14. Re:What ever happened to... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I got all day.

  7. re by JohnVanVliet · · Score: 1

    Is it piracy if you NEVER would have bought it to begin with
    If it is free i might download it but at $30 to $50 i would NEVER even think of buying it
    If there was NO loss of cash is it piracy

    --
    "I don't pitch OpenSUSE Linux to my friends, i let Microsoft do it for me
    1. Re:re by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, it is.

    2. Re:re by greghodg · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Ha! I said the same thing back in the 80's when I was a 13 year old pirating apple 2 games. Turns out I was just an immature little kid that didn't think the rules applied to me.

    3. Re:re by T+Murphy · · Score: 1

      The MAFIAA's sense of entitlement is only rivaled by that of pirates like the parent. I want to see major copyright reform, but I want nothing to do with such pirates.

    4. Re:re by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      Is downloading a TV Show that was aired an hour before on public airwaves Piracy?

      your argument is easy to poke holes in. Mine is far more solid as even the copyright lovers cant justify it.

      You gave it away for free on public airwaves. you have no right to whine if someone recorded it and shared it with everyone that could have watched it for free.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    5. Re:re by causality · · Score: 1

      Ha! I said the same thing back in the 80's when I was a 13 year old pirating apple 2 games. Turns out I was just an immature little kid that didn't think the rules applied to me.

      Eh, I don't agree with this viewpoint as I find it too polar. You're either an immature kid or you're an adult who follows all the rules all the time. This leaves no room for the possibility of civil disobedience as a response to unjust laws.

      Still, it is a real viewpoint and it's not "Flamebait" to state it. Mods, please grow a pair and stop letting your personal offense decide your use of modpoints.

      --
      It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
  8. If I were American... by SilverHatHacker · · Score: 1

    Is there any 'politically correct' way to tell the government to screw off?
    If not, let me be the first to just say, "Screw off."

    --
    Funny may not give karma, but +5 Informative never made anyone snort coffee out their nose.
    1. Re:If I were American... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is, give a large enough donation to the politic hack, and then you can tell em to screw off, and guess what they will... screw off on someone that that hasn't donated to them.

    2. Re:If I were American... by sarx · · Score: 1

      Well, you have every right to write angry letters to congressmen, or complain in the newspaper, or for that matter on slashdot. But "the government" is not a unitary entity, so I'm not sure whether any of the people getting your message are the bad guy that you want to reach.

    3. Re:If I were American... by boarder8925 · · Score: 1

      Generally governments don't listen when people are polite. That's what history's shown, anyway, and I put a good amount of stock in it.

  9. it is cute.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    ..that they actually have the nerve saying it will benefit consumers, because piracy is holding IP holders hands from innovating. Cute.. really cute..

    1. Re:it is cute.. by Elbereth · · Score: 1

      I'll take a stab at this.

      Let's say that I'm an independent developer, and I'm looking to make a revolutionary product that will make computing much, much easier for the majority of users. In order to recoup my expenses, I'm looking to sell it for a small amount of money -- say $5. I'm not greedy, and I figure that I'll sell (literally) billions of copies, across the globe, since my software is so amazing and revolutionary. However, there's a problem: because my software is so awesome, most people will see it as a necessity, and, as a necessity, they will pirate it, en masse. Once I realize this, why wouldn't I just give up and write it off as a lost cause? If something revolutionary isn't even worth $5 to the majority of people, then why should I even waste my time making it, when I could make a killing on something that I market to the lowest common denominator?

      I'm not going to pretend that this is an amazing, debate-winning example, and it ignores some strong counter-arguments ("just make it open source", "the government can fund it", "put it on ROM and sell it to Intel", etc). However, it is conceivable that there are situations where one could make this argument, like if my favorite game or movie never gets a sequel, because the piracy would be rampant. I'm not saying that this is an argument that I necessarily advocate, just that it's conceivable that something I would have wanted isn't offered to me, due to piracy concerns.

      In general, I find DRM to be detestable (it only punishes the honest), and if I weren't going to buy something anyways, it's difficult to see how anyone has lost money due to piracy. However, piracy does have negative effects, and to pretend otherwise is naive (or outright ignorant). For every person who pirates Windows 7 or Photoshop, Linux and the GIMP become just a little bit less relevant. If Windows 7 and Photoshop were 100% uncrackable, then Linux and GIMP would flourish. Oh well.

    2. Re:it is cute.. by Andorin · · Score: 1

      Let's say that I'm an independent developer, and I'm looking to make a revolutionary product that will make computing much, much easier for the majority of users. In order to recoup my expenses, I'm looking to sell it for a small amount of money -- say $5. I'm not greedy, and I figure that I'll sell (literally) billions of copies, across the globe, since my software is so amazing and revolutionary. However, there's a problem: because my software is so awesome, most people will see it as a necessity, and, as a necessity, they will pirate it, en masse. Once I realize this, why wouldn't I just give up and write it off as a lost cause? If something revolutionary isn't even worth $5 to the majority of people, then why should I even waste my time making it, when I could make a killing on something that I market to the lowest common denominator?

      I think your hypothetical situation carries a few assumptions that aren't warranted. First of all, there's no strong evidence to link lack of sales with high piracy rates. Something does not need zero or insignificant piracy to sell well; additionally, if something is pirated a lot, that doesn't mean it won't be a financial success. This is because the "lost sale" argument is complete crap. There is no way of knowing which downloads were made:
      * Instead of a sale, in which case there is a loss to you;
      * Alongside or just before a sale, in which case several things are possible, including additional sales due to market share attracted by piracy;
      * By someone who could not have bought it in the first place, in which case you have lost nothing whatsoever. Also, the low price doesn't mean that anyone who wants it can buy it, as there are plenty of other factors to consider. Some might live in countries where legally buying the software, even online, is difficult or impossible. Some might not have a credit card. Some might be minors.

      So with regards to the success of your hypothetical software, what it comes down to is what it always comes down to: How good it is. If your software is truly revolutionary and incredible and highly desired by everyone, you will likely make a boatload of money off it completely regardless of piracy rates. People reward good creators because people understand that they need to eat too. (It's money-grubbing media corporations that we tend to reserve our fury for.) You shouldn't view the possibility of piracy as a deterrent to creativity. On the contrary, if you publicly accepted, or at least tolerated, distribution of your software, you'd find yourself on the good side of a bunch of Internet geeks, who would go on to recommend your software to their non-nerd friends and family. More sales for you.

      Big Content already uses the piracy boogeyman as a scapegoat for decreased sales. I don't want to see individuals and independent developers take the same route.

      --
      That Anonymous Coward guy is pretty annoying. Can we have the government censor him or something?
    3. Re:it is cute.. by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 1

      Sorry, but your scenario does not pass that conceivability test. Most truly revolutionary software gets its start in research labs, and is presented at conferences or published in academic journals.

      Selling software is a business model that does not make sense anymore, not when so many people have broadband Internet access. There is simply no scarcity on which to base a business which sells software. You might sell services related to software, and that will be successful, but without the sort of government crack-downs that TFA describes, you will not have much luck. Here is an idea though: if you really want some software developed, find a bunch of other people who want it, pool your money, and pay someone or some company to write it and release it to the world (GPL).

      --
      Palm trees and 8
    4. Re:it is cute.. by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 1

      you will not have much luck.

      ...selling the software itself, that is. This is what I get for posting before having a cup of coffee.

      --
      Palm trees and 8
  10. Why the U.S. shouldn't control DNS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The only point to having a new law for this, is to make it hard to access web servers that aren't in the U.S. by messing with DNS, regardless of whether the material was legally hosted where the servers were located. (If the problem was with U.S. hosted servers, existing law would be plenty good enough.)

    1. Re:Why the U.S. shouldn't control DNS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unless the US plans to take out the DNS for the entire country, the US has no ability to stop you from having/registering pornspamwarez.. The root servers point to and nothing else.

  11. The Fools Never Learn by Ragnar+Bocephus · · Score: 0

    All this legislation would do is drive piracy more underground and more distributed and more encrypted. Bring it on you political dinosaurs. 8P

    1. Re:The Fools Never Learn by Haeleth · · Score: 2, Insightful

      All this legislation would do is drive piracy more underground and more distributed and more encrypted.

      That wouldn't necessarily be counter-productive.

      Hard-core pirates are always going to find a way to pirate. But it's not the hard-core pirates that the media industry is scared of; it's casual pirates, pirates who might actually represent lost sales. It's Joe Average, who has just discovered this wonderful website with torrents of all his favorite TV shows on it, so he doesn't need to buy the DVDs any more.

      If piracy is driven deeper underground, the hard-core pirates will still pirate stuff -- but Joe won't be able to simply stumble across a major distribution site any more, and even if he figures out where to look, he still probably manage to get that distributed encrypted download software to work. So maybe he'll decide it's more trouble than it's worth and just buy the damn DVDs after all, because he'd rather pay $14.99 than spend the entire weekend swearing at his computer.

      That's what the media industry is hoping, anyway.

    2. Re:The Fools Never Learn by causality · · Score: 1

      All this legislation would do is drive piracy more underground and more distributed and more encrypted.

      That wouldn't necessarily be counter-productive.

      Hard-core pirates are always going to find a way to pirate. But it's not the hard-core pirates that the media industry is scared of; it's casual pirates, pirates who might actually represent lost sales. It's Joe Average, who has just discovered this wonderful website with torrents of all his favorite TV shows on it, so he doesn't need to buy the DVDs any more.

      If piracy is driven deeper underground, the hard-core pirates will still pirate stuff -- but Joe won't be able to simply stumble across a major distribution site any more, and even if he figures out where to look, he still probably manage to get that distributed encrypted download software to work. So maybe he'll decide it's more trouble than it's worth and just buy the damn DVDs after all, because he'd rather pay $14.99 than spend the entire weekend swearing at his computer.

      That's what the media industry is hoping, anyway.

      Most people who use a BitTorrent client have no idea how it works. They are not intimately familiar with the principles of its operation. They are unlikely to even understand the IP stack or the TCP protocol. What they know is how to use a GUI client that obscures most of the technical details. They click a ".torrent" link in their browser, a BitTorrent client pops up, they click "Ok" and the download begins. This requires no specialized knowledge whatsoever.

      There's no reason to believe that encrypted peer-to-peer clients could not work the same way, or could not use something like onion routing as their basis. Enough necessity will gladly become the mother of that invention. To think otherwise is a total failure to understand the nature of things like Prohibition, the War on (some) Drugs, and any other instance of what happens when overwhelming widespread public demand is driven underground.

      --
      It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
    3. Re:The Fools Never Learn by Kjella · · Score: 1

      If they took down the public torrent sites, the next step would be putting the search and magnet links on TOR, I2P or something like that. It's not ready for carrying the bulk downloads, but it would suffice to bootstrap the process. Besides, Google with "filetype:torrent" would also need to be shut down...

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    4. Re:The Fools Never Learn by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's always been "hard-core underground".

      Except greedy scum ruin things.

      The whole sharing is caring crap and general p2p mentality is retarded and everyone will be better off if they simply... just... vanished.

  12. What impact would this actually have? by pyrocam · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Will this actually have an impact though? what piracy sites are run from the US? I assume this court order will only be effective for servers hosted in the states...

    1. Re:What impact would this actually have? by Xerolooper · · Score: 1

      Somehow I doubt they thought it through that much. They probably pictured going downtown and busting the perps in their den of inequity. Perhaps someone tried to explain how the Internets worked to them but I doubt that as well. Anyone who tried would probably just frighten them into thinking they were a hacker/pirate.

      --
      "The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget." -Thomas Szasz
    2. Re:What impact would this actually have? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I would expect just the opposite. It will be used to make the U.S. based DNS registrars break DNS for servers hosted in other countries. If the servers were in the U.S., existing laws could be used to shut them down.

    3. Re:What impact would this actually have? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There goes the NNTP protocol.

  13. guilty until proven innocent? by v1 · · Score: 1

    The new bill would give the government the authority to shut down the sites with a court order; the site owner would have to petition the court to have it lifted.

    Did I read that right, that they can get the site yanked, and then you have to get to work to prove your innocence before you can have your site back up?

    --
    I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
    1. Re:guilty until proven innocent? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Evidently Constitutional issues cannot be addressed when dealing with something as important as Internet piracy.

    2. Re:guilty until proven innocent? by vux984 · · Score: 1

      Did I read that right, that they can get the site yanked,

      They do have to actually convince a judge there is a legitimate reason first. Its not a rubber stamp process... or at least it shouldn't be. In any case would you be happier if they could yank your site without a court order?

      and then you have to get to work to prove your innocence before you can have your site back up?

      That is how all injunctions work.

      There is nothing inherently wrong with the "idea" of this legislation. How abuseable / abused it will be is an entirely different question.

    3. Re:guilty until proven innocent? by horatio · · Score: 1

      yes, yes you did. which was exactly my reaction. The government, at the behest of a private party, shuts down a legitimately operated business, whom the RIAA bots have decided are infringers. It turns out, the guy is selling his own music. Or, he has obtained the rights to use the music. But his business is closed until he can prove he didn't do anything wrong. By the time he convinces a judge the slick $500/hr RIAA/MPAA lawyers are wrong, his small operation which he sunk his life savings into, and which was feeding his family with, has gone under. No one will compensate him. He's just fucked.

      --
      There is very little future in being right when your boss is wrong.
    4. Re:guilty until proven innocent? by CannonballHead · · Score: 1, Informative

      Yes...

      Some legislators don't really care about Constitutionality. Such as Nancy Pelosi, who when asked where the Constitution gave Congress the power, simply asked if the reporter was serious, and moved on. It's on youtube, etc.

    5. Re:guilty until proven innocent? by The_mad_linguist · · Score: 1

      Duh. Everyone knows that the answer is always "the interstate commerce clause". No matter what the power is.

    6. Re:guilty until proven innocent? by CannonballHead · · Score: 1

      She could have said that just as easily, then ;)

  14. Another law makes the US less competitive by mkawick · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The DCMA notoriously was touted as solving the online piracy problem. The cold reality is that almost ten thousand small companies have shuttered their doors in the last almost 15 years. New startups are forced to prove that they are not infringing and while waiting they must cease all development. This can take months and cost upwards of 100K meaning that most tech startups must simply shutter their doors. Microsoft alone has filed DCMA takedown notices almost 500 times and is successful at shuttering the company nearly every time.

    Now, media sites can be shut down for being "copyright infringing" with very little evidence to the contrary. A small company cannot fight the likes of MS, IBM, Apple, Sun, or the host of other awful DCMA bastards and now they'll need to worry about Bartlesman, Dreamworks, Pixar, and the like. This simply makes it impossible to start a new media company because all that the media conglomerates have to do is claim that someone is stealing and without your company being informed, you can be shut down. The DCMA shuts down software and this new rule will shutdown new media.

    The DCMA is one of the main reasons that more and more companies are successfully competing in software development overseas and why more and more software is coming from Russia, China, Norway, and so on. It is becoming impossible to create a new software startup. And now in the land of unintended consequences, we just shipped all of our movie, music, and game production overseas.

    There have been no new Googles for over a decade and we wonder where all of the jobs are going.

    1. Re:Another law makes the US less competitive by Darkness404 · · Score: 1

      Exactly. The US has gotten really good at making sure that people don't want to work here. News flash, its not 1950 anymore, Europe is just as developed if not more developed than the US, most of Asia has lots of cheap labor and good talent. If I was starting up a business I'd start it almost anywhere other than the US.

      --
      Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
    2. Re:Another law makes the US less competitive by theNAM666 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I personally think this is more idiocy, but do you mind citing one or two actual companies "shut down" by DMCA? Just to show you're not making this up *entirely* ?

    3. Re:Another law makes the US less competitive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well written, could hardly be any better. Please mod parent up +5!

    4. Re:Another law makes the US less competitive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just fucking google it, you lazy schmuck

    5. Re:Another law makes the US less competitive by ScrewMaster · · Score: 5, Insightful

      There have been no new Googles for over a decade and we wonder where all of the jobs are going.

      Every empire throughout history (whether military or economic) has eventually failed. It's inevitable. Now, sometimes another empire with more on the ball rolls over them. That happens. In most cases, though, it's because they shot themselves in the foot. In other words, their own governments failed to perform their duties under the law, became corrupt, sold out their own citizens and caused the entire house of cards to collapse. Fact is, Uncle Sam's feet are stumps at this point. Yeah, it will suck to be an American when the lights finally go out, but that's the way it's going. I'm trying to decide if I should get out before it's too late. Where to, that's the question. I want good food and fast broadband. Cool smartphones would be a plus.

      See, this is why the media cartels are so evil. It's not just because they want to protect their movies and music ... it's that they're willing to throw the entire country, all of us in fact, to the wolves, under the train, under the bus, into the fire, in order to get what they want. Worse, it's the naked corruption and malfeasance in office (if not outright treason) of Federal officials that is allowing to happen.

      I hate them all.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    6. Re:Another law makes the US less competitive by sarx · · Score: 1

      Most of the 300 million-or-so residents of the US do want to work here, and not a small number of people from other countries also come here to study, start a new life, and - yes - do business. A lot of us actually like our country (which doesn't mean we have to think that Europe or Asia are bad). But if living here is not your cup of tea, you have the freedom to leave.

    7. Re:Another law makes the US less competitive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There have been no new Googles for over a decade and we wonder where all of the jobs are going.

      500 million Facebook users would disagree, as would the billion a day tweeters. Granted, they may not be as useful as a decent search engine, but when a sizable portion of the planet is using them, they clearly have something people want.

      Google is already stuck for ideas, and their search results are getting worse thanks you link farms and crap like cnet flooding results with placeholders. Bing has overtaken yahoo, people are moving.

    8. Re:Another law makes the US less competitive by shentino · · Score: 1

      Gee, maybe that's one of the reasons our economy is in the toilet right now.

    9. Re:Another law makes the US less competitive by NJRoadfan · · Score: 1

      There are a few Chinese companies that are outsourcing manufacturing to the US... why? Better infrastructure. Things like electricity are more reliable and cheaper in the US. http://money.cnn.com/2010/05/06/news/international/china_america_full.fortune/index.htm

    10. Re:Another law makes the US less competitive by mkawick · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, those companies who disappear can't be googled... because they no longer exist.

      When I lived in Dallas, I personally witnessed two startups shut down by DMCA. One was a company my friend started doing security software for the Palm and WinCE.

    11. Re:Another law makes the US less competitive by mkawick · · Score: 2, Interesting

      In fact, the only important new software companies in the last 12 years have been Facebook and Twitter and they are often cited as a counter example to those who hate the DMCA.

      Ignoring their insignificance, can you think of one other...?

      These companies succeeded because MS, Sun, and their ilk ignored these startup companies until they were large largely because the conglomerates didn't understand them or their significance. Now, MS tries to pay attn to all startups and we haven't seen a single company in 5 years (Twitter is 2006) since.

      On a positive note...shutdowns have slowed as the conglomerates are seeing that their efforts in DMCA notices are "killing the golden goose" that they can later buyout and remain competitive.

    12. Re:Another law makes the US less competitive by mkawick · · Score: 4, Informative

      Try these... some are companies, some are blogs... but you get the idea

      http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/02/microsoft-cryptome/
      http://blogcritics.org/politics/article/first-amendment-under-attack-feds-shut/
      http://boingboing.net/2010/07/23/dmca.html
      http://vigilant.tv/article/3328/blackboxvotingorg-shut-down-under-dmca-for-linking
      http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2007/09/intellectual-property-laws-abused-in-quest-to-shutdown-lowes-sucks-com.ars

      There are hundreds... I simply googled: "companies shut down by DMCA"

      This one is plain weird:
      http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/_improper_use_of_copyright.php

    13. Re:Another law makes the US less competitive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When women gain power, empire falls. There is no reason for a man to do anything other than live (not excel) if he cannot have a young sweet obedient bride. Women with power outlaw such things and imprison men for that.

    14. Re:Another law makes the US less competitive by causality · · Score: 1

      And now in the land of unintended consequences

      What makes you think this is unintended?

      Either every legislator and top-level member of the executive branch is a drooling idiot, or, there is at least one of them who can point this out to the rest and the rest don't care.

      You need predictable crises to solve if you want to implement Thesis, Antithesis, Synthesis.

      --
      It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
    15. Re:Another law makes the US less competitive by Vegemeister · · Score: 1

      wut

    16. Re:Another law makes the US less competitive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Palin 2012! Maybe the Maya predicted the end of the "American" world/empire?

    17. Re:Another law makes the US less competitive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The DCMA is one of the main reasons that more and more companies are successfully competing in software development overseas

      That looked like a thoughtful post until the 8th miss-spelling of DMCA.

    18. Re:Another law makes the US less competitive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There have been no new Googles for over a decade and we wonder where all of the jobs are going.

      doesn't facebook or youtube for that matter count?

    19. Re:Another law makes the US less competitive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      PTL. See todays paper: USA to Sweden - You can't be a haven for Wikileaks - ha.

      Due to stupid existing laws I am sending lots of US dollars out- making overseas sites rich.
      Gambling
      Porn
      Drugs from Canada or Mexico, wherever
      Swiss Proxies
      Some overseas file server that has the lot
      Oh and all those drop ship from China sites
      Buy up trips from low tax states
      Overseas holidays - but boy - do they search you coming back home
      Little lady now ordering stuff and clothes from China - must hurt the Mall.

      Obviously, if you were considering setting up a net based business, it is better doing it overseas where pesky do-gooders wont be able to do jack. There are heaps of cheap places in Michigan and Detroit - that remain empty because of the threat of lawyers - real or imagined.
      And there are plenty of street corners where knock-off's are sold.

      Hopefully unemployment here, and in the South will send a clear message at the next election.

    20. Re:Another law makes the US less competitive by metacell · · Score: 1

      Most likely you are flamebaiting, but for the sake of argument... the Roman empire fell while their emperors excelled at greed, war and cruelty. Money, power and status seem to be sufficient motivators for quite a lot of people.

    21. Re:Another law makes the US less competitive by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

      Palin 2012! Maybe the Maya predicted the end of the "American" world/empire?

      Hardly. "It's just not California ... the whole world is going to shit!" Hey, I've seen the movie, I know how it goes down.

      Besides, why pick on us? The rest of the world sucks at picking leaders too, and considering that America is only a couple hundred years old, the rest of you have sucked far longer.

      Besids, Obama is inflicting more damage right now that Sarah Palin could ever do. He's actually intelligent ... the makes him a lot more dangerous.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    22. Re:Another law makes the US less competitive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You get to talk once you've learned not to misspell "misspelling".

    23. Re:Another law makes the US less competitive by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

      Hopefully unemployment here, and in the South will send a clear message at the next election.

      You're assuming they care enough to listen.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    24. Re:Another law makes the US less competitive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Every empire throughout history (whether military or economic) has eventually failed.

      Oh, your quite wrong, unless you by fail mean stopped being an empire. People in most empires that have existed, simply discovered that holding up an empire isn't any fun, nor profitable. And once you hold an area long enough to get to know and sympathise with the people living there, it gets terribly unpleasant to rule through terror and with an iron fist.

      Of course empires with an dramatic ending is more interesting to write books about, but they are a minority.

      Writing this from the ex-empire Sweden. Although Swedish military attacks against other countries was more of a "hit, grab and run" (pretty much the same tactics that USA use today), it still ended up with a lot of, more or less shortlived, protectorates in northern Europe (most of the area surrounding the Baltic sea, Norway and some deeper chunks into what is now Poland, Russia and Germany). The Empire of Sweden was one of the longest lasting empires of Europe. Less then 15% of todays Sweden was part of the original Sweden, the rest come from conquered areas where people became integrated culturally, or extinct. But most of the land areas of the empire was sold of, given to the local people or taken by force by some other country (but to tell the truth, the last seven or so wars was just to get a better ransom at the negotiation table). Of course, being considered the bad boys of Europe wasn't all bad, it stopped other countries from attacking Sweden, it is better to keep the wars outside the borders, and Sweden actually got richer by other countries paying ransoms for doing nothing, then from actual conquest and plundering (especially thank you to the Brittish Empire for paying us handsome protection money through out all of your existence, it was quite unnecessary the last 60, or so, years, because the political situation in Sweden would have made it impossible to raise an army against you).

    25. Re:Another law makes the US less competitive by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

      Oh, your quite wrong, unless you by fail mean stopped being an empire.

      You didn't actually read my post, did you.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
  15. Rubbish by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The judge would have final say over whether a site should be shut down or not.

    No anyone can shut down the site, and by the time you make your way though the horrible court system here the site would never recover if allowed to re-open

    you cant kill something then decide after the fact that it is okay if it continues to live

  16. You don't understand a thing. by www.sorehands.com · · Score: 4, Funny

    The MPAA, RIAA, and DMA have bought laws.

    Don't you think that they have a right to expect a fair value for the legislators that they buy?

    What good is buying a congressperson if you can't get the laws you want written the way you want?

    1. Re:You don't understand a thing. by siddesu · · Score: 4, Funny

      Your question is rhetorical, but let me bite.

      This is happening because enforcing civil law on behalf of the Hungry Artists is a costly and difficult exercise in the US.

      Especially so since you have evil commies like our resident slashdotter lawyer, who is destroying business value by promoting socialist ideas like fair use, copyright limits and the like on his blog.

      Dumping the enforcement on the government has benefits for all involved.

      It is good for the companies -- they get to save some extra buck on prosecution and enforcement, and face significantly lower legal risks while protecting their valuable business model (which benefits the shareholders, and our great capitalist society).

      It is good for the government -- with little cooperation from the interested parties, they get a nice tool for shooting things on the web they don't like.

      It is good for the consumer -- for access to unapproved, and potentially dangerous and unlawful content is restricted.

      Finally, since this will obviously help combat child porn and drug abuse, it is good for the future of this great nation. Why don't you think of the children?

      No matter how I look at it, this is a beneficial measure for everyone except the few Communist slashdotters who abuse the internet to steal from our creative industry.

    2. Re:You don't understand a thing. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're just jealous. Oh well, haters gonna hate!

      Sincerely,
      Your Local Media Conglomerate

    3. Re:You don't understand a thing. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      The MPAA, RIAA, and DMA have bought laws.

      Don't you think that they have a right to expect a fair value for the legislators that they buy?

      What good is buying a congressperson if you can't get the laws you want written the way you want?

      Ever notice with party the MAFIAA goes to in order to purchase their laws?

      Look here and here

    4. Re:You don't understand a thing. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Uh, both of them? When you're bribing, or lobbying, or whatever they call it now, you give to the party that's winning, and for Congress that's been the Dems for the past few years. Soon it will be the Republicans stuffing their pockets, but until then why give to the losers?

    5. Re:You don't understand a thing. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Great use of buzzwords there (troll) haha

      If you don't support this legal action you:

      1. are a communist
      2. hate capitalism
      3. support child pornography

      The sad thing is that the average American zombie will hear words like this and stop thinking about the actual issues.

    6. Re:You don't understand a thing. by MartinSchou · · Score: 1

      since this will obviously help combat child porn[...], it is good for the future of this great nation. Why don't you think of the children?

      I thought the problem was exactly people thinking about the children?

    7. Re:You don't understand a thing. by king+neckbeard · · Score: 1

      Actually, I think MAFIAA has been mostly aimed at democrats since the Mccarthy era. Apparently, accusing half of Hollywood of being communist traitors didn't sit well.

      --
      This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
    8. Re:You don't understand a thing. by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      >>>Why don't you think of the children?

      Because children grow-up to become adults, and they don't want to have a censored internet anymore than we do. If you are TRULY thinking of the children, then you will leave the internet uncensored so they can have free speech as adults.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    9. Re:You don't understand a thing. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Free speech? Bah. I used to get all the free speech I can handle from the girlfriends, now I get more than I can manage from the wife only.

      I don't want any free speech, all I want is some quiet. Too bad it doesn't come free at all.

    10. Re:You don't understand a thing. by Moryath · · Score: 1

      Oddly, following the various FBI papers that have been declassified every 5 years ago, it turns out a lot of them WERE actually dealing info and influence in the pay of the communists...

    11. Re:You don't understand a thing. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would assume, ordinarily, that this is an attempt at humor. Regrettably, considering that there are SOME rabid reactionaries, mostly on the right, but not exclusively, that actually believe this steaming pile you just issued forth, I must respond for the benefit of the impaired.

      First, this offers only the illusion of value to companies, as it perpetuates the fallacy of "pirated copy == lost sale". Real pirates will buy only two things, Jack and you already know what else. If they are not buying the goods they pirate, they certainly will have few qualms about engaging in credit fraud, identity theft, etc.

      Second, this truly sucks for the government. It adds yet one more layer of bureaucracy to an already overburdened system plagued by inefficiencies, corrupt officials, and inadequate budgets. Any additional funding at this point is nothing more than a band-aid where a tourniquet is required, and distracts from the war effort where funds and manpower are more desperately needed.Let's not forget, also, that this breeds further contempt for a government that is seen as overlarge and overly intrusive in private affairs. Consider also, that the illicit goods will now be sourced overseas, thus depriving American businesses of their due royalties, and the government of its fair cut of the profits in tax revenue. If you thought enforcing Prohibition was bad, you ain't seen nothin' yet!

      Third, this puts the consumer at greater risk, since they will now be OBLIGATED to seek alternative sources for the products desired, which may prove to be anything but legit. Do you SERIOUSLY think people will do without a product if they figure out a way to get it from another location? Instead of downloading questionable material from shady websites, now they may feel justified in visiting a "sneakernet bootlegger" in some filthy back alley someplace, involving REAL danger to life and limb, rather than VIRTUAL risk to their credit rating, identity papers, whatever, and please don't bother with telling me that jail will deter them, it hasn't worked too well on the illegal drug trade, now has it?

      Lastly, this will do nothing to curb the drug trade, it may even provide background cover for it under the guise of bootlegging for other things. If nothing else, it provides a venue for advertisement that otherwise was less widespread. And child porn? HA! If child porn addicts can't get their hideous "fix" off the net, then they may well try to replace that with REAL acts of REAL child molestation within the communities in which they live. Instead of a few million kids all over the world getting abused, now you have them PLUS a few million MORE in this country ALONE, joining them in that sad, sick, fraternity of abuse. Good God, Think Of The Children!

      I really hope you meant to be funny, as you were modded such. Because if you were serious....then you're not funny, just plain sad.

    12. Re:You don't understand a thing. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, and by the way, I AM a native born American citizen, a registered voter, I DO actually vote, I am NOT a Communist, and while I don't ascribe to laissez faire capitalism, I do think that a mostly capitalist model is preferable to most other economic methods, GENERALLY, and personally find pedophilia to be so reprehensible that it merits a lifetime in a gulag someplace, ideally, some asteroid somewhere.

      All this, and I STILL disagree with your point of view, though I respect your right to express it.

    13. Re:You don't understand a thing. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      it is good for the companies -- you hurt yourself there

      it is good for the government -- so they think. how much of a burden in terms of manpower and tax-dollars will it cost to protect some companies useless art?

      it is good for the consumer -- no, DRM sucks. as long as the government protects the business model, it will not go away.

      why are my tax-dollars being given to huge media corporations?

    14. Re:You don't understand a thing. by siddesu · · Score: 1

      Ordinarily I don't even see you ACs, because my thrashold is set to MAX garbage, but to your comment I must respond, because it may be misread by the random bleeding heart liberal as threatening my tractate on the benefits of strict copyright enforcement. This is emphatically not so.

      Why?

      Your first point is a strawman. I never-ever discuss the "losses" this "piracy" is allegedly causing to the companies. Honest, read my post. I strictly limit my points to out-of-pocket expenses in enforcement of copyright via civil legislation which is already in place.

      These are large (we know MAFIAA is losing a lot of money) and the relief obtained as a result is largely imaginary, not unlike the property that is being protected. This, without question, hurts the companies that are hired to enforce rights on behalf of the copyright holders. This, undoubtedly, hurts the copyright holders as well.

      Of course, any of this isn't related to sales or creative activity, but these are secondary concerns to the MAFIAA lobby. And, I am not sure anything can hurt the Hungry Artists, but them being well-fed is not a priority - we know artists must be Hungry, or they stop producing art.

      So, your point #1 is completely reduced to ashes. Puff, gone.

      Second, from the point of view of the taxpayer, a complicated and expensive government may indeed suck. I have yet to see a proof of this expressed by a popular vote or the support of rational candidates, but theoretically you could be right.

      But again, this is a strawman to my argument, because I look at the things not from the overrated point of the taxpayer, but, instead, from the point of view of the overworked and underpaid government official.

      From that point of view, all is fine and dandy. The government official has a new and important job, he can request more funds and expand his bureaucracy. What is to dislike about it if you work for the government?

      And the extra benefit of being able to censor incorrect, misinforming or inflammatory and subversive articles and sites is indeed a boon to the government official in these times of crisis and terror.

      Third, this law will not affect the consumer, except channel their frustration from browsing fake torrents into something productive. If the consumer has no torrents to browse and the "real thing" is too expensive and too dull, maybe they will find more time to read slashdot, or a book or two, and educate themselves on important issues of citizen democracy in the intertubes age.

      The citizenry making informed decision about complex issues like the drugs use and child porn will probably bring better solutions in those two problem areas as well.

      Hence, as I say, I see no downside.

      And I am being dead serial, 8 bits, parity on an everything.

    15. Re:You don't understand a thing. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The few slashdotters?

      Piracy is like masturbation, 98% of people do it. And the other 2% lie.

    16. Re:You don't understand a thing. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thank you for taking the time to reply to my post. While you make some interesting points, I'm afraid I still disagree with you on some of them.

      You argue, as stated, from the perspective of an overworked and underpaid government official. Ok, fine, but let's examine this a bit, shall we?

      You claim my first point as a strawman fallacy. Perhaps so, but then, what IS this all about if not the protection of corporate profits at the expense of consumer rights? Strictly limiting the discussion to terms of enforcement only fails to account for the larger picture, which is very pertinent to the discussion. Compartmentalizing a debate on a larger issue into its component parts is itself a strawman argument, so you have used the same approach as I on point one, as far as I can tell, by overlooking the larger concern here, which is that current copyright and IP law fails to equitably address consumer and corporate trade.

      Shifting the costs of enforcement from the company to the government is only a temporary gain, as the government makes up the added expenditure by increasing taxes, tariffs, or deficit spending. Ultimately, this will add to the costs of doing business EVERY DAY, so, no, it is NOT good for companies in the long term. Companies then outsource their functions (as they are doing) and the government suffers loss of revenue by attrition.

      Flaming strawman- damaged, but doused.

      Secondly, from the point of view of a government functionary, this is no real improvement for the government, as it is as likely not going to be funded adequately (remember the point in argument #1)and if an increase in staff or manhours is authorized, it may well be at the expense of other projects or even existing wage/ benefit levels within the same department. He/ She can request additional resources all he/ she likes, but it won't amount to much if the higher ups, or if it goes far enough, Congress, says "no". It DOES add stress, time spent filing forms, convening in committee, and expense in wages on a useless paper chase that may yield a watered down benefit by the end of it all. Want validation of this process? In this country, No Child Left Behind might underscore the matter sufficiently.

      Let's also remember, that in THIS country, theoretically, at least, the taxpayers and the government are supposed to be one and the same. If you divorce the two, are you implying that the Constitution itself is invalid, and that the general citizenry are second class to a ruling elite under the eyes of the law? Such thoughts are potentially treasonous, sir, so tread carefully.
      As for the benefits of censorship, well, that works so nicely for the People's Republic of China, doesn't it? Perhaps you should emigrate there? Maybe you'd be happier. Who decides what is subversive? How far down that slippery slope shall we travel together, hmm?

      Second strawman stands aside yours, doused in gasoline- got a light?

      Third, perhaps the consumer is unaware of how they are affected by this, it does not follow that they are NOT affected by it by virtue of that lack of awareness. The citizens of Hiroshima were arguably unaware of atomic warfare in 1945. How unaffected were they on December 6 of the same year? (Call this a strawman if you like, but it illustrates a point.)As for channeling behavior into "productive" activity, one person's productive is another's folly. Not saying you are incorrect, but it IS a subjective point, isn't it? Remind ourselves, also, that some people live to thwart the ambitions of others. Some for pay, some for thrills, some because they honestly believe it is the "right" thing to do. Is your morality better than anyone else's? For that matter, is mine?

      You see no downside, I believe, because you may personally benefit from it. I will not fault that opinion, but it IS an opinion. I see much to be feared from such legislation, but then, my own life experiences undoubtedly color my opinions, as well. You seem dismissive of a liberal mindset, and that is a shame, really. This nation was b

    17. Re:You don't understand a thing. by siddesu · · Score: 1

      Both posts weren't very serious - I tried a lot to emphasize that nothing of the things I list has any merit to those, who make the actual market for creative work - the artists and the end consumers, and who are ostensibly those who benefit from the copyright regime.

      In fact, the law has fallen behind and the copyright and related rights need reform in substance to reflect the new technological realities and consumer preferences.

      IM real HO, ntroducing more enforcement will only distort the market more. Shifting costs away from one of the players and creating more incentives for lobbying and gray connections between the government and the, well, MAFIAA industry will, in all likelihood will be detrimental to both creators and consumers.

      But that will be the general direction until such time when people are hurt enough by the copyright regime to begin to realize it is a problem. It may not come very soon.

    18. Re:You don't understand a thing. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Somehow this occurred to me while reading your post: I have been purchasing all my music and videos legally and not file sharing for years, to show that laws like this were unnecessary. Instead they used that money to buy congressmen and push for draconian measures to screw with my net experience.

      Fuck me, I should be strictly pirating for moral reasons. It's the only way not to fund this B.S..

    19. Re:You don't understand a thing. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "It is good for the companies -- they get to save some extra buck on prosecution and enforcement, and face significantly lower legal risks while protecting their valuable business model (which benefits the shareholders, and our great capitalist society).

      It is good for the government -- with little cooperation from the interested parties, they get a nice tool for shooting things on the web they don't like.

      It is good for the consumer -- for access to unapproved, and potentially dangerous and unlawful content is restricted.. THINK OF THE CHILDREN -BRAIN DRAIN-.. except the few Communist slashdotters.."

      I don't totally disagree with you, totally.

      That's neither here nor there, what's important is that you seem to confuse that under strict *capitalism* or any variant of *libertarian minarchism* and not under Communism (who are statist technocrats, btw, whose appeals actually couldn't even be applied to this situation), these companies and in fact everything outside of joint industrial open source projects would be selected for destruction as a superfluous, unnecessary, agents promoting corporate statism a price inflating agent that takes money away from the creation of new goods and services while raising the price of the overall consumer basket charging creating artificial supply on something for which we otherwise have infinite supply of and nigh free self inter distribution.

      Now consider, if you could build a device and sell it, that duplicated a fish for $00.00002 worth of your own electrical power, would you be liable to the fisheries, fish farm, etc. the producers, and distributors of fish as a pirate? Would a free market in that case have any demand to keep around those producers and distributors? Or would they be selected for as stated above? Given that there's an ocean of fish already out there to choose from it seems the actual argument you're making is equivalent to; we need to artificially restrict supply, and prosecute the natural tendency of a market, in order to keep producers of genetically modified fish creating slightly different tasting flavors because otherwise only industrial fish-making-box makers would have a demand to produce different fish 'recipes' in pushing their products and you think that that growth curve, technologically and in variety, being lower than the original is sufficiently detrimental enough to societies happiness, despite that it makes things more expensive and limits availability, to devote permanent government bureaucracy to protecting these industry hence forth, even to the extent that the time should come when their remaining usefulness has disappeared altogether and remains only an industry created illusion.

      I believe that time will come, as of now, its not here yet and there are ways in which they are still partially valuable to us to protect. Though I am not sure that creating permanent corporate influenced bureaucracy is ever anything but dumb, even in light of choices which are now, but certainly won't always be, better or more efficient. When it does come, will you want to change it back the otherway or will you resign surrendering to the ineffiecient corporate statist landscape? For instance, given that in the last 10 years *96%* of all big block buster productions were sequels, reboots, or remakes it would seem to suggest that their invention of new musings over what an indie coalition and the movie theater industry could come together and produced otherwise is getting ever slimmer.

  17. Damn those evil Republicans by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If the Democrats who really care about the people had any real power, we'd never seen these kind of power grabs

  18. Land of the free !!!! by unity100 · · Score: 1

    if, youre stupid enough to believe !!

  19. Why not death sentences then? by erroneus · · Score: 2, Insightful

    This is completely circumventing the notion of due process and the ideal of innocent until proven guilty. So if this is okay, then let's just have the judges hand down an order for execution of suspected murderers and then make the defendant file a motion for a stay of execution pending a trial.

  20. DAMN ANNOYING by airfoobar · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The internet is such an amazing, useful and indispensable tool... yet I keep seeing a bunch of retards from a bygone age trying to subdue and control it using petty excuses such as copyright. This is seriously over "entertainment", like movies and music? Are we seriously expected to stand aside and let them take the the internet with such a lame excuse? Fuck the entertainment industries, they should either figure out a more consumer-friendly way to operate, or POAD because they are completely useless and their products are pure shite. Fuck the pirates who are giving those asshats an excuse to screw everyone over, and then don't have the balls to vote for the Pirate Parties to mitigate some of the damage. And most of all, fuck the douchebag politicians who are colluding with the "entertainers" to introduce anti-consumer, anti-democratic, anti-civil-rights laws like this, and who have no business being in office.

  21. Have we... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... reached the point where dealing in copyright violations are prosecuted worse than, say, dealing in hard drugs?

    1. Re:Have we... by mbone · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Oh, no, we passed that point about a decade ago.

  22. Lump much? by StikyPad · · Score: 3, Insightful

    "online piracy and the sale of counterfeit goods costs American businesses billions of dollars, and result in hundreds of thousands of lost jobs"

    Much the way national defense and senators' salaries cost American taxpayers trillions of dollars each year.

    1. Re:Lump much? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Chamber estimates copyright piracy from movies, music, software and video games costs the U.S. economy $58 billion in total output every year. The Chamber's projected cost of that lost output is more than 370,000 domestic jobs, $16.3 billion in earnings, and $2.6 billion in tax revenue for state, local, and federal governments.

      I bet the top 100 (corporate) tax dodgers easily owe more than $2.6 billion and could probably put a nice dent in that $16.3 billion number too.

      You know why the IRS doesn't pursue them?
      The IRS literally doesn't have the resources to go after evasions that large.

    2. Re:Lump much? by rwv · · Score: 1

      I understand why you're ragging on National Defense, but the U.S. Senate doesn't pay it's elected employees very much. I believe it's under $200k for each of the 100 Senators (so, like $20M for the whole organization). I don't think you could name any other organization operating in all fifty states that manages to function on such a small budget.

  23. Here is the actual Bill by mbone · · Score: 1

    For those who like getting their news from the source, here is the current (PDF) draft of the bill.

  24. Color me surprised... by JaredOfEuropa · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ... that they actually mention piracy as the reason to implement this. Here in the Netherlands, similar legislation is being prepared, which by the way will require no court order whatsoever to have a site shut down, the public prosecutor can decide on a whim. The reason? You guessed it, "saving the children", or shutting down kiddie porn sites. As the minister stated: "Not to worry, but this is just for kiddie porn. Oh, and for other illegal stuff (like online piracy). Oh, and that includes hate speech too. Probably certain elements of a particular party we don't like much as well. But we'll exercise proper care" No checks, balances or even limits placed on this awesome power given to the prosecutors office... already famous for exercising proper care in sending a 10-man police force to do a nighttime raid on the home of an apparently extremely dangerous cartoonist making "hate-instigating" (i.e. subversive) cartoons. Or allowing cities to do door-to-door searches of homes looking for indoor weed plantations... but sending along municipal guys to check you're not claiming unemployment benefits while living it large, or having a dog without paying the tax. Oh and these are proper searches: fail to be home when they drop by a few times, and they will take a crowbar to your door.

    Do not ever give in to pleas to relax controls to make life for the prosecutor a little easier "to catch more criminals". It's never about criminals nor child-molesters. We let them do it here, and allowed the government to thoroughly politicise the prosecutors' office, then took away the judiciary branch' power to check and balance. The result is not pretty... All these so called inconvenient controls exist for a reason.

    --
    If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
  25. CommanderTaco: Was that Piracy post censored? by Ellie+K · · Score: 1

    I just returned to the story and noticed that it doesn't link to the pdf file of the actual Senate Bill. When I first viewed the story as it appeared, a few hours ago, it linked straight to the full draft Bill from the U.S. Senate. The link's source (for the pdf document) was Wired. It might not have been attributed perfectly, but it was attributed well enough that I was able to go to the Wired story without any question, so I didn't think that was the issue.

    Just curious why Slashdot (or the story submitter, not necessarily Commander Taco's doing, that was a probably futile attempt at humor) edited the initial story link.

    --
    tempus fugit
  26. Regulate BANKS, not downloads!! by purpleraison · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Seriously. The US government is 100% committed to spending a fortune regulating and enforcing use of the internet due to 'online piracy'. As a result the US government is directly providing law enforcement, judicial, and legislative staff to protect the video and music industry..... and yet they openly claim REGULATING BANKS and stock market (NOTE: the Republican party is almost 100% against regulating the banking industry) is bad???

    Am I the only one who is concerned with this criminally insane paradox?

    --
    I am open source, and Linux baby!
    1. Re:Regulate BANKS, not downloads!! by CannonballHead · · Score: 1

      Hum. Could you point me to something that states that the Republican party actually wants no regulation of the banking industry whatsoever?

      "Something" would be something more than, say, a wacko who affiliates with the party... since, after all, people CAN differ.

      As far as I am aware, especially in light of current legislation discussions, Republicans are in favor of some banking regulation. Democrats happen to be in favor of much more regulation.

      By the way ... Mae/Mac were regulated quite a bit. Government oversight, or intervention, in that case, did not help a lot. Perhaps "regulation" isn't the answer. Perhaps proper regulation has something to do with it.

      And when some Republicans, anyways, talk about no-government-intervention, they are talking about things like incentives for banks to loan to risky homebuyers, not telling banks that they need to have so much in assets in order to be FDIC insured or whatever. I can't answer for all Republicans, of course, but I know no one, personally, that actually wants no regulation of the financial industry whatsoever. As much as Democrats like to say that, I don't think that is true.

      Shocking, I know... people saying things that aren't true. In both parties. Yikes. One of my favorite sites for "things so-and-so said."

  27. Good question by spun · · Score: 3, Funny

    Is it piracy if you NEVER would have bought it to begin with
    If it is free i might download it but at $30 to $50 i would NEVER even think of buying it
    If there was NO loss of cash is it piracy

    Is it piracy if you board another ship at sea while hoisting the jolly roger, wearing a wooden leg, sporting a parrot on one shoulder and demanding chests full of gold doubloons?
    Is it piracy if they don't have any doubloons?
    Is it piracy if you then ravish their women? What if you don't exactly ravish them, but merely rip their bodices, accidentally exposing their heaving bosoms?
    How fast must a bosom be moving in order to be considered "heaving?"

    --
    - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    1. Re:Good question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I like this line of thought and I think you should continue it.

    2. Re:Good question by discord5 · · Score: 1

      Is it piracy if you then ravish their women? What if you don't exactly ravish them, but merely rip their bodices, accidentally exposing their heaving bosoms? How fast must a bosom be moving in order to be considered "heaving?"

      Fascinating. This requires some in depth research. You don't happen to own a boatn because I happen to have some grog and a few eyepatches?

    3. Re:Good question by archmcd · · Score: 1

      GROG! GROG! GROG!

      --
      I'm not an expert, but I play one on slashdot.
    4. Re:Good question by spun · · Score: 1

      While I do look forward to a fruitful research partnership, I have to ask for your qualifications. Do you have bosoms? How good are you at heaving?

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
  28. Is it just me by KillaGouge · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Is it just me, or will this do nothing to stop downloading? After reading, it appears they will only go after sites selling things. I thought that downloading was the largest threat to "the industry", or are they just getting to the point they want to bring everything down that they don't make money off of?

    --
    GENERATION 25: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social exper
  29. 10% Unemployment... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    and this is what they are working on. Seriously, this is the best they could do...something that helps movie studios rake in more money. At the very least they could be going after the corporate scum that wrecked the economy in the first place.

  30. Yes, We can... by theNAM666 · · Score: 1

    Because every pirate site is within US jurisdiction, of course!

  31. yes, there is by ChipMonk · · Score: 1

    "I refer the honorable (?!?) legislators to the response given in Arkell vs. Pressdram."

  32. DCMA? by antdude · · Score: 1
    --
    Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
    1. Re:DCMA? by mkawick · · Score: 1

      My mistake... DMCA

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Millennium_Copyright_Act

  33. Hooray! by Teun · · Score: 2, Funny

    Finally we'll again get good movies and music, just like it used to be before the market collapsed due to piracy.

    --
    "The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
  34. Resistance is futile? by Steeltoe · · Score: 5, Informative

    All the more reason to move over to I2P, or other general darknets, which can provide application-agnostic anonymous networking with end-to-end encryption. Why wait for the inevitable when we can build a secure internet on top of the old one?

    With I2P, there are no central DNS servers and, the ISP / IP-address of a specific service is ideally not knowable, neither are the ISP / IP-addresses of visitors to e.g. a political website. I2P being p2p, no authority has the power to shut down a site, prevent visitors using services in the I2P "darkcloud" or even snoop on the network activities (without using leaking honeypots, assimilating keys somehow or perform (D)DOS attacks). I2P uses random ports, so it's not as simple to block as blocking a portrange either. Being based on p2p coupled with encrypted tunnels, I2P resists most common attacks, even by formidable adversaries such as governments. You can run any website, any type of application, over I2P, however care must of course be taken to eliminate "identity leaks" in the application layer, even though the network-layer takes care of most anonymity, encryption and p2p.

    So if you are to host "objectionable" content, whatever that may mean across the globe, I'd suggest taking a peek at I2P, as the "normal" internuts seems to be screwed in the short/mid-term. Heck, we should probably start using I2P for any and all purposes, so that I2P content is "legitimate" and equally protected from being censored and snooped upon in the first place.

    I2P main site as a start. It's java and open source, so easily cross-platform and performs well (for a Java app anyway):
    http://www.i2p2.de/

    1. Re:Resistance is futile? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Tyopical slashdot.
      How about "all the more reason to actually pay for content that other people take years to make?"
      Oh noes! that couldn't possibly be the solution, as self-righteous linux-fanboys we have the god-given RIGHT to take others works for free!!!!1111
      Fucking grow up.

    2. Re:Resistance is futile? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So they will crank open another piece of legislation that says 'if i2p detected it is censored'. Dont worry about what is in it just shut down the whole stack... Only known ports are allowed in and out and those are heavily monitored for crazy traffic.

      or how about 'as an isp each of our customers is free to choose to buy our super duper tier but running server software is not allowed by the TOS on this tier'

      Next move?

      When dealing with censoring changing the form of communication works short term but long term it is a non starter.

    3. Re:Resistance is futile? by ZmeiGorynych · · Score: 1

      As long as copyright gets extended effectively into pertpetuity, and as long as the law at the very least doesn't punish, and often actively supports, schemes that prevent me from exercising fair use rights on content I paid for (not to mention being force-feeding me insulting propaganda clips before alowing me to watch a movie I bought) - yes, copyright has no moral standing and should not be respected.

      FYI not currently a linux user, and as for self-righteous - pot.kettle.black.

    4. Re:Resistance is futile? by Steeltoe · · Score: 3, Informative

      I'd suggest you read up on I2P. It is not as simple as to block some ports, since I2P utilizes a random port per node. You'd have to do deep packet inspection on the encrypted traffic. I'm not sure how big the I2P-fingerprint is, but my guess is you could disguise the traffic as ssh, https or similar traffic easily, if not already done so.

      I also countered the legitimate argument in the original post, suggesting we start using I2P for *any and all* content, also legitimate ones. Then the courts, which ideally represents the population, will have a hard time cracking down on I2P as a whole, unless you live in China or other human rights breakers..

      If your ISP blocks incoming connections, I2P will still work automatically, as long as your tunnel is using at least 1 hop, which is default for new tunnels. Then other anonymous nodes will act as "incoming server" for you..

      Please check out http://www.i2p2.de/how.html for more.

      Point is: Internet is inherently insecure and untrustworthy. It is already heavily monitored, and Man-In-The-Middle attacks are possibly more rampant than we'd like to think it is.

      I2P is already general-purpose enough to replace most features of internet v1, and already addresses most issues of anonymity and transparent encryption elegantly.

      While politicians and the lawyers fight over the freedom of internet v1, it's not such a bad idea to stand on another leg in a more secure network, built on top of the old internets.

    5. Re:Resistance is futile? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Also, to extend your argument: even if GP's scenario becomes real, or something even more restrictive (example: you can only use facebook, twitter, flickr, youtube and gmail, port 80; everything else is blocked), I can still think of quite a few ways of creating and exploiting steganographic channels over those sites to create a pseudonymous p2p overlay network, if needed.

      Example 1: Take a system like Freenet (which doesn't require low latency links, as long as there is plenty of bandwidth) and use any reasonable steganography technique to embed Freenet packets into images, audio and video. You just need a rendezvous point (like flickr, youtube or facebook) and some public-key system to ensure privacy and authentication and you're set.

      The best thing: even DPI can do nothing against this. Although it is true that steganographic techniques are not perfect, it is computationally prohibitive to analyse _every single media file_ for hidden steg channels. And no single steg detection technique will work for all steg techniques, all the time, which ensures plausible deniability.

      tl;dr: Good luck preventing people to communicate over the Internet; as long as I can transmit a single bit hidden somewhere (somehow), I can eventually transmit a fully encrypted and authenticated message with arbitrary size to whoever I want. You just have to play a bit with the trade-offs between data volume, computational power, practicality, scalability, paranoia, latency and bandwidth.

      captcha: breacher

  35. What are trying to shutdown? by gmuslera · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Newspapers? Saying that there is a torrent from a movie is not so different from saying that i.e. John Doe robbed that bank.
    Search engines? Directly or indirectly search engines links to movies and pirated material
    Web 2.0? Everything with user participation have potential to be used to "exchange links"
    Mail? Mailing lists?
    At most they should be going against the people that put them online at the first place

    Wonder how fast will be censored all post that names the Great Firewall of America, but probably that is what they really should do if they don't want that americans download so easily pirated movies.

  36. a huge step forward by nurb432 · · Score: 1

    To a totalitarian country as private speech is squelched under the guise of 'anti piracy' ( or 'hate speech' or several other forms of free speech that is under attack ).

    --
    ---- Booth was a patriot ----
  37. three equal branches by nurb432 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I disagree, in reality the supreme court holds more power, since they can pick and choose what cases/issues they take.

    I agree the founders never meant for it to be that way however.

    --
    ---- Booth was a patriot ----
  38. Why the government is involved by nurb432 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    So the plaintiff doesn't have to pony up the cash to do it, and can now accuse at will, without any regard to potential returns. However, keeping it in civil court keeps the accused at a disadvantage as they have to effectively prove their innocence, at their expense.

    Buying laws is fun.

    --
    ---- Booth was a patriot ----
  39. Finally.... by Roskolnikov · · Score: 1

    a way to shut down ebay.

    --
    Unix, an obscure operating system developed by bored researchers in an attempt to get a better game playing experience.
    1. Re:Finally.... by T+Murphy · · Score: 1

      The real win with shutting down eBay would be the hit PayPal's wannabe monopoly would take.

  40. Something that Democrats and Republicans agree on by mykos · · Score: 1

    Nothing can unite a governmental body like monetary payoffs in exchange for broader control of the population.

  41. 321 Studios by tepples · · Score: 1

    but do you mind citing one or two actual companies "shut down" by DMCA?

    321 Studios for one.

    1. Re:321 Studios by vux984 · · Score: 1

      321 Studios for one.

      How about companies that aren't the poster boys for doing precisely activity that the DMCA was created to combat?

      321 studios isn't innocent 'collateral' damage of the DMCA. It was the bloody target.

  42. Wikilleaks by ktetch-pirate · · Score: 5, Informative

    If you look closely at the bill, it's actually usefull to shutdown sites that contain classified documents too, such as ooh Wikileaks... That, I think, is the real target. http://ktetch.blogspot.com/2010/09/us-senators-in-big-copyrights-pocket.html

    1. Re:Wikilleaks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wikileaks isn't on US soil. How could it benefit?

  43. Orrin Hatch! by JackSpratts · · Score: 1

    Just another brown floater in a long depressing stream of never ending draconian legislative BS from big media's favorite strap-on(TM) tool.

  44. Morons. utter morons. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    all such sites will just move to china and russia, as they are already doing, and these countries will have more cards to play in trade negotiations of any sort. china already 'has' united states' entire debt. russia is back as a power. chinese rep to wto even said that usa was already a bankrupt country and its rating agencies' opinion mattered zit.

    your self serving representatives harm even their own interests, it seems.

  45. acta whip by Jeek+Elemental · · Score: 1

    This would seem to be the first step in enforcing borders on the net; expect other countries (france) to follow soon.
    Blocking internet trade will be a powerful whip when a country refuses to sign ACTA.

    disclaimer: im not an oracle tho I did win the 2019 crystal ball award.

  46. ...and good for consumers who will benefit by viking80 · · Score: 1

    I thought "free" was pretty good until I listened to these fine senators and their helpful business friends. Now I understand that there is a slippery slope from skipping through that commercial to piracy, and to terrorism.

    --
    don't cut it off www.mgmbill.org
  47. This is amazeingly stupid. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Wonderful! The use of public money to enforce copyright, that's fair. In fact, we should simply assume some poeple somewhere will somehow violate copyright and from public funds pay all copyright holders massive largess.

    Or maybe, just as an idea, how about we crack down on criminal acts and leave civil matters to the people with a stake in them to pay for?

  48. Lessons not learned by shoehornjob · · Score: 1

    I predict piracy will not stop until media and software companies stop using DRM which breaks their product and users understand that you can't get something for nothing forever. So in other words we're in for a long battle.

    --
    "We are just a war away from Amerikastan. When god vs god the undoing of man." Dave Mustaine
  49. 4Chan by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Uh-oh, is 4Chan now going to take down the Senate Judiciary Committee? :-)

    By the way, the summary left out an important part of this sentence:

    "Business groups including the US Chamber of Commerce hailed the legislation as a huge step forward... off a cliff."

  50. No Electronic Theft Act (1997) by westlake · · Score: 4, Informative

    The issue is that they could do so for a civil infraction, as opposed to a criminal infraction.

    Copyright infringement can be prosecuted as a federal felony charge.

    The United States No Electronic Theft Act (NET Act), a federal law passed in 1997, provides for criminal prosecution of individuals who engage in copyright infringement, even when there is no monetary profit or commercial benefit from the infringement. Maximum penalties can be five years in prison and up to $250,000 in fines. The NET Act also raised statutory damages by 50%.
    In addition, it added a threshold for criminal liability where the infringer neither obtained nor expected to obtain anything of value for the infringement. In response to the NET Act, the US Sentencing Commission stiffened sanctions for intellectual property theft offenses.
    NET Act

    The federal government has the constitutional right to criminally prosecute violations of federally granted property rights.

    Prosecuting economic crimes with an interstate or international dimension is primarily a federal responsibility.

    In a service-based economy, the entertainment industry generates a lot of jobs and a lot of domestic and export dollars. Many of those jobs and many of those dollars going directly into the pockets of the American geek - and not to the Russian or the Swede in Pirate Bay.

    Two Individuals Sentenced to Prison for Conspiring to Traffic in Counterfeit Slot Machines and Computer Programs [casino gambling software] [August 20]

    Thibodaux Man Pleads Guilty To Violation Of Digital Millennium Copyright Act [XBox 360 mods and pirated games] [maximum exposure, 5 years and $500,000, sentencing in 2011] [August 11]

    Manhattan Federal Court Orders Seizures Of Seven Websites For Criminal Copyright Infringement In Connection With Distribution Of Pirated Movies Over The Internet [June 30]

    Texas Man Admits Involvement In Software Piracy Conspiracy [Warez] [August 10]

     

    1. Re:No Electronic Theft Act (1997) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The federal government has the constitutional right to criminally prosecute violations of federally granted property rights.

      How convenient. Intellectual property is a fucking farce.

  51. this doesn't really change much. by doronbc · · Score: 1

    TPB and the like aren't hosted within the United States, as far as I can tell from the article, the U.S still doesn't have permission to go after international sites.

  52. Right by warrior_s · · Score: 1

    Just like they have cracked down on WikiLeaks !

  53. Innocent until proven guilty? HAH!!! by Newer+Guy · · Score: 1

    This joke of a bill assumes you are guilty and punishes you until YOU prove yourself innocent-at THEIR timetable of course!

    The RIAA can target anyone they want-the judge says: "yup yup yup" and POOF! you are out of business!

    Of course you can have the order lifted-right? Let's see...your appeal date is is scheduled for six months from now-until then you REMAIN out of business! What do you mean you don't have enough money to operate without any business that long? TOO BAD!!!!.

    Every day...every single day I see another one of these-taking away freedoms from PEOPLE and giving them to CORPORATIONS! We truly ARE fast becoming the Corporate States of America!!

  54. Shades of Russia by Stephen+Samuel · · Score: 1
    That is so incredibly WRONG. Shutting down a site is a form of censorship and should only be allowed with the moderation of the courts. Allowing the courts the ability to lift a ban could easily result in a case like we saw recently in Russia where a site is taken down without just cause and, because of various legal shenanigans it takes months (or even years) before a court order reversing the shutdown is issued.

    If prosecutors have a clear case of violation, then let them get a court order (preferably with knowledge of the victim so that they can respond). That way overzealous prosecutors don't cause a chilling effect.

    --
    Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
  55. A common misconception by EmagGeek · · Score: 1

    It is a wildly popular but incredibly false concept that legislation actually extinguishes a behavior.

  56. Don't Download, Use Hard Disk by Simonetta · · Score: 1

    Downloading is kind of dumb because unless you are a wizard at RIAA dodging technology, these people are looking for you and could, conceivably, actually find you. Especially if you're downloading a lot from your dorm room.

    Another reason downloading is somewhat déclassé is because you have to specifically request a title, which means you have to know exactly what you want, which means that your cultural development is limited to what you already know and like.

    One of the great features of Napster was that you could scan the lists of other people's offerings who were sharing files on Napster. Chances were high that if you liked a very specific form of music and you found great titles on another sharer's listing, then the other titles in their offered collection would be great even if you weren't familiar with the songs or bands .
    All the bulk 'pirate' websites since then don't offer this feature: they just offer a library of specific titles that you have to request.

    Everyone has spare old hard disks hanging around. Let's fill up our old drives with music:art:video:films that we think are fantastic and share drives instead of files. No one will ever get caught by the MPAA/RIAA, and we will get exposed to new works that we would never be exposed to otherwise. This is what the media companies are supposed to do but fail so pathetically at doing.

      I myself love movies. So when I upgraded my hard drive to a two terabyte I took the old 600 gigabyte and filled it with my favorite films copied from DVDs available at the public library. I share it with co-workers. Out of the sixty or so movies, they may have heard of only a few. But they are all good and they are all free and they are all available to them on the drive.

    Here is a list of the movies on my old shared hard disk. What's on your shared hard disk?
    Goldfinger 1964
    Unfaithfully Yours 1939**
    From Russia With Love 1963
    Sea Change - Jesse Stone 2004
    GoldenEye 1992
    Taken 2007
    For Your Eyes Only 1986
    Night Passage - Jesse Stone 2005
    Quantum of Solace 2007
    The Seagull's Laughter (Iceland) 2004
    The Departed 2007
    Thunderball 1966
    For A Few Dollars More 1967
    El Topo (Mexico) 1967
    La Jetee (France) 1962
    Stone Cold - Jesse Stone 2006
    Death In Paradise - Jesse Stone 2006
    I Could Never Be Your Woman 2005
    Lost Horizon 1939
    Farewell, My Concubine (China) 1989
    My Best Friend (France) 2001
    Logan's Run 1975
    Dr. No 1962
    Black Sunday 1976
    Infernal Affairs (Chinese-Hong Kong) 1999
    You Only Live Twice 1967
    Two English Girls (France) 1971 Truffaut
    The Godfather (part 1) 1972
    CSI_Miami Season 5_Disk 5 2005
    Dangerous Beauty 2006
    Vicky Christina Barcelona 2007
    City of God (Brazil) 2004
    Marathon Man 1977
    The World Is Not Enough 1996
    Star Trek IV _ The Voyage Home 1986
    Toby Dammit (Italy) 1966 Fellini
    Waitress 2006
    A Hard Day's Night 1964
    Space Cowboys 1999
    Day For Night (France) 1974 Truffaut
    Hamlet (Mel Gibson) 1989
    Beauty And The Beast (France) 1946
    Bride and Prejudice (India) 2005
    The Black Book (Netherlands) 2005
    Sleepless In Seattle 1992
    Nash Bridges [Wild Card] 1999
    The Wings of a Dove 1998
    Dangerous Liasions 1989
    Love on the Run (France) 1979 Truffaut
    My Man Godfrey 1936**
    The Ninth Gate 2004
    The Man Who Loved Women (France) 1979 Truffaut
    The Big Lebowski 1999
    The Thomas Crown Affair 1998
    American Gangster 2006
    Dune 1982
    Flawless 2007
    Bandlieu 13 (France) 2008
    Shine A Light (the Rolling Stones) 2008
    Goodfellas 1990
    The Dirty Dozen 1967
    Ben And Board (France) 1970 Truffaut
    State of Play 2008
     

    1. Re:Don't Download, Use Hard Disk by cpghost · · Score: 1

      Uploading is kind of dumb because unless you are a wizard at RIAA dodging technology, these people are looking for you and could, conceivably, actually find you. Especially if you're uploading a lot from your dorm room.

      There, fixed that for you.

      --
      cpghost at Cordula's Web.
  57. DONT host DNS in the usa by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    then they can cost the hosting company money ...who cares
    the usa is lost to innovation and is now akin to only greed cant wait for them to just cut off themselves form the rest of the world

    no one wants or needs any americans

    and i guess all the gun violence, murder rape and missing children the fbi aren't looking for are all solved and no more of that is happening.....GUESS if you can't solve the other stuff pick on kids sitting at home nice and safe...yup give them more reasons to wander off not the world and have the rest you can't solve get them....

    GO OBAMA

  58. To quote JFK by Fnord666 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.
    - John F. Kennedy

    --
    'The tyrant will always find pretext for his tyranny.' - Aesop's Fables
  59. WWW Stands for... by sjs132 · · Score: 1

    WORLD WIDE WEB...

    Our laws won't apply to everywhere. At most it will be used to punish our own citizens who inadvertiantly purchase something from a shady location due to a discount in price. When will they wake up?

    --
    --- Relax, that mass muderer is just trying to reduce our carbon footprint, one fetus at a time...
  60. So what... by greymond · · Score: 1

    If they managed to actually shut down The Pirate Bay, EZTV and all the other torrent sites on the entire internet, all that would happen is people would go back to grabbing lists from IRC and FTP downloading like they did in the late 90's to 2001ish.

    More time and effort should be spent on making sure products are actually worth selling, and then piracy wouldn't matter. For example, I'm pretty sure Blizzard's Starcraft 2 is still making tons of money regardless of it being available for download, as well as I'm pretty sure the next Harry Potter movie is going to make shitloads of money, just like it's previous movies, regardless of it being on The Pirate Bay.

    What successful product has ever really been hurt by piracy? How many shitty products that deserve to fail (or at least get subpar earnings) has been tanked by piracy? So companies that make shitty movies make less money - good - that's how business is designed to work.

  61. by seizing domain names? *facepalm* by CreamyG31337 · · Score: 1

    first they better shut down every redirector service that doesn't rely on their official DNS:
    http://navig8.to/
    http://kickme.to/
    http://no-ip.com/
    etc...

    Then we'll be forced to enter IP-addresses manually. Surely that will stop all piracy, because we all know pirates are lazy and stupid and won't know what to do!!

    We sure didn't invent like 20 other protocols we could use or anything... I've never heard of anything like Direct Connect, Gnutella2, NNTP (usenet), BitTorrent (with DHT), Kademlia, Soulseek/Nicotine, FastTrack, OpenNap, P2PTV.

    These idiots *ALWAYS* try this, they shut down one or two sites that were indexing movies or games or whatever. It makes a difference for like a week, 2 people that probably deserved it end up in trouble, 20,000 morons have to spend a few minutes researching how to steal things again, and most of them figure it out. A couple people that have lots of money and know better than to waste their time are further discouraged. A bunch of lawyers and lobbyists get richer. Some detectives get promoted. And everyone else gets used to the stupidity of the whole thing. I don't know if I should even feel sorry for their wasted efforts. It's nice to see them cluelessly claiming victory over these things, but that effort could be so much better spent on some other problem like homelessness. Of course, the politicians solution would probably be to relocate all the homeless people to another city, or just harass them with police. Are these policy makers just lazy or something? I don't see how it's so difficult to come up with a solution to a problem when you have a proper education...

  62. So counterfeit or piracy? by Sirusjr · · Score: 1

    The article mentions both piracy and the sale of counterfeited goods. However, it is unclear if this simply stops web sites selling bootleg copies of movies, or also allows shutting down of sites where people post movies (through torrents or direct downloads). If it is about shutting down web sites where counterfeited movies are sold then I am all for it, provided they fix the inherent due process problem. At least if you are going to get a court order, do it in the form of an injunction so you have to show likelihood of success in some other suit still pending.

  63. ...in other news by freedom_india · · Score: 1

    The senate refused to block senators and congressmen from trading based on insider information. When asked by a Fox news reporter : "Why was Oprah convicted of trading insider information while senators can't be convicted?", the respected GOP Senator from illinois refused to answer the question.

    --
    "Doing what i can, with what i have." ~ Burt Gummer
    1. Re:...in other news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who is this "GOP Senator from Illinois" you speak of?

  64. Old School Host file by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Out of curiosity, (I am not factoring in the practicality of this), can a court order be issued to hijack an IP? I mean, if I register a domain name, obviously a court order can be issued to request the registrar to point the domain name else where, where the person wielding the court order request. It has been done and that is not what I am asking. What I am asking is, if you have a leased line for example or some form of Internet access with a fixed IP to your server, can your IP address be taken away from you. (NOT a dynamic IP like most ISP issue. A static IP you are paying for with your service / dedicate line.)
    It would be a bit of a pain, but for site that may have valid value but some jack wad decides to interfere with it, through various channels get the ip popular. People can set up host file entries and call it what ever is easy to remember and point it to your IP. Then some so called pirate site couldn't have their domain hijacked because they wouldn't have one. This assumes of course that your paid for IP address is yours,and not rented like a domain name.

  65. Not quite by Burz · · Score: 1

    Your political forum is shut down the first time some kid quotes 1984.

    They won't care about sparse buried quotes on obscure sites. But when Johnny makes a big impression using 1984 quotes and then links to known troublemakers, the copyright book will suddenly get thrown at him (among other nasty legal things).

  66. Article misses some attribution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The other sponsors are Sens. Herb Kohl (D-Wis.), Arlen Specter (D-Pa.), Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.), Dick Durbin (D-Ill.), Sheldon Whitehouse (D-R.I.), Amy Klobuchar (D-Minn.), Evan Bayh (D-Ind.) and George Voinovich (R-Ohio).

    Missed out mentioning 'A. Shill (M-AA)'

  67. Wow! Why so much outrage? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A law that expedites shutting down of sites that host or facilitate the unauthorized downloading of copyrighted content is certainly not a bad thing.

    Yes, potentially there could be a problem for 'dual-purpose' sites e.g. ones which can host / link to public domain material but can also host unauthorized content. But then it's the responsibility of the site owners to ensure that unauthorized content does not find it's way on their site. Just because you are running a site on the internet for business or as a hobby should not absolve you from requiring to set up proper processes in place (just like any brick and mortar business is required to).

    There are already legitimate means to get digital content and these would probably only get better if we can truly clamp down on unauthorized downloading of such material.

  68. Come to Denmark by jonaskoelker · · Score: 1

    Where to, that's the question. I want good food and fast broadband. Cool smartphones would be a plus.

    Denmark: 20/1 for 45$/month, 50/5 for 90$. An N900 for 700$, Android phones at similar prices. You can get cheap phones with 6-month shackles or expensive phones with cheap subscriptions and no shackles. Mobile internet for 10$/month (1/.5, capped at 1 GB).

    Oh, we can buy milk that's milked within 24 hours at our groceries.

    1. Re:Come to Denmark by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

      Where to, that's the question. I want good food and fast broadband. Cool smartphones would be a plus.

      Denmark: 20/1 for 45$/month, 50/5 for 90$. An N900 for 700$, Android phones at similar prices. You can get cheap phones with 6-month shackles or expensive phones with cheap subscriptions and no shackles. Mobile internet for 10$/month (1/.5, capped at 1 GB).

      Oh, we can buy milk that's milked within 24 hours at our groceries.

      You had me up to the milk part. I hate milk.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
  69. What about virii, spam and identity theft? by archmcd · · Score: 1

    So why are we (the government) spending millions of dollars protecting intangible property while every day virii, worms, bots and other malware are being distributed via email and http servers, social networks and advertisers? There's a huge underground industry supporting worm and virii R&D in order to generate income from sources ranging from advertising revenue all the way to identity theft and credit fraud. Sources distributing this malware are easily identifiable, and could quite possibly be contained if only the primary distribution points could be shut down rather quickly. Likewise, a more proactive approach to unsolicited email advertisements (spam) would make it less cost effective for spammers to distribute malware. To me this is a much bigger impact, more victims and far more important than busting someone for sharing a copy of "Son of the Mask." That movie sucked anyway, and Jamie Kennedy looks nothing like Rocky Dennis.

    --
    I'm not an expert, but I play one on slashdot.
  70. Yes, everyone should obey all laws by h00manist · · Score: 3, Insightful

    We should start in government and business. All government and business should have their accounting books openly verifiable, online, live, for immediate inspections of transactions with indicted groups with involvement in money laundering, terrorism, tax evasion, drug and people trafficking, and child porn. "Business trade and accounting secrets and privacy" cannot remain an excuse for covering up endangering all of society. If only the police could track the money, they can track down all crime. What, you object? Do you have something to hide?

    --
    Build your own energy sources from scratch. http://otherpower.com/
  71. Actual link to bill by Dublius · · Score: 1

    In case it hasn't been posted yet, here's a link to the actual bill hosted on Wired

  72. Too big to police by Drakkenmensch · · Score: 1

    You can't monitor ALL the internet ALL the time. Pirates are a sneaky bunch, they will always find a way...

  73. Piercing the corporate veil by westlake · · Score: 1
    I own a small hosting company. We have operations in the US, Europe, and Asia. Each operation is owned by a seperate corporate entity. Chance favors the prepared.

    The fool never knows when to keep his big mouth shut.

    Generations of lawyers, accountants, and detectives have fed on the corpses of investors who thought their ownership and control of distant enterprises had been successfully disguised.

    1. Re:Piercing the corporate veil by TooMuchToDo · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Frankly sir, I'm not trying to disguise anything. I've simply followed the letter of the law in all the jurisdictions I operate in. Of course, it wouldn't protect me if I went all Wikileaks and countries started doing underhanded things to go after me, but you have to balance risk and reward.

  74. Not going to do much by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I really dont see how this is going to do much of anything at all.....most servers are not in the US they are overseas already. If they are here they already have the overly powerful DMCA that they can exercise on this. The only way that I can see this being relevant is if ISPs get the authority to block URLs, domains, or IPs and that is a whole other issue that I do not believe this bill addresses.....

    1. Re:Not going to do much by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

      I really dont see how this is going to do much of anything at all.....most servers are not in the US they are overseas already.

      I hear that claim bandied about a lot, but given the amount of raw connectivity that the United States has, I suspect it isn't really true. Wishful thinking, really. Sites that expect they may have problems with U.S. laws, well, sure ... but "most servers"? I doubt that. And what do you qualify as a server? Microsoft, Google, Yahoo and AOL alone account for an incredible number of servers in vast datacenters, and most of those are located in the U.S. (although all of those companies do have substantial infrastructure elsewhere.)

      You also have to make a distinction between ISPs and hosting companies. Granted, sometimes they're one and the same. Requiring Web hosts to deactivate specific servers on demand is pretty worthless, I agree, and for the reason you state: they can just move overseas somewhere. Furthermore, if the domain is still active the site could be back up in minutes if an overseas backup server was prepared in advance. But if the intent is to prevent Web users from accessing undesirable sites, a better approach would simply require all U.S. ISPs to block all sites on a government-provided blacklist. It won't matter then if a site is up or not: everybody's provider will block access to the domain. Of course, it's a small step from that to requiring ISPs to use a government-approved whitelist. Don't think there aren't certain people just salivating over that prospect.

      By the time the dust settles, the United States Federal Government, the very entity which brought forth the worldwide wonderfulness of the Internet itself, is perfectly capable of ruining the whole thing, at least for those of us in the U.S.

      No, I did not RTFA.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
  75. judges are lied to by DABANSHEE · · Score: 1

    LEOs regularly exaggerate, embellish & lie to magistrates 'n judges, both in court & in chambers to get convictions, warrants & court orders galore.

  76. Copyright law should've stayed civil only by DABANSHEE · · Score: 1

    I don't see why copyright law enforcement should've ever entered the criminal code, it should have just remained a part of the civil law code like patent law.