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An Open Letter To PC Makers: Ditch Bloatware, Now!
MojoKid writes "This is the final straw, the last stand. This is the year that companies have to wise up and realize that they're destroying the experience of the very machines they are marketing so vigorously against their competitors. We're talking about bloatware, and it's an issue that we simply cannot remain silent on any longer. The term 'bloatware' generally refers to any additional software installed on a machine that is not a native part of the operating system. 'Bloatware' is usually provided by third-party software companies, and can range from security suites to unwanted Web browser toolbars. It's most problematic, as these programs generally attempt to boot up first thing, right as the OS is booting up, before the end-user ever has a chance to launch the program on their own accord. It's time for manufacturers to take note: consumers do not want bloatware. It's a royal pain from top to bottom, and moreover, it ruins your brand. When people think of HP and Dell, they immediately think of just how infuriating it is that their last 'new' PC took over one minute to boot up and become usable. To these companies: why are you saddling your machines with software that makes it less enjoyable to use? The solution seems pretty simple. If you still wish to include loads upon loads of third-party software, stick it all on a thumb drive and include it with every new machine. Problem solved."
To these companies: why are you saddling your machines with software that makes it less enjoyable to use?
Because they get paid a fortune to do so
Keep wishing, do you think anyone would purposely install that software off a thumb drive?
Also get rid of that MS Works POS. Never used it in 15 years
------
beware he who would deny you access to information, for in his mind he dreams himself your master
The problem is that PC makers have pursued the lowest common denominator so long that their very slim profit margins probably only exist because of the third party software. I look at the price of some of the systems out there, and I can only assume that without 30-day Office 2010 trial editions and all the other crap they'd probably be in the hole.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
Eh. Buy the business versions of computers instead. They're comparable in price to their home equivalents, and lack the trialware.
I still remember when I got my first computer though. There were some demos preinstalled, but there were also full versions of software as well on CDs - a few games, Encarta, etc. Plus, it came with a thick book with detailed technical descriptions of the computer (keep in mind this was a "home user" system) that was comparable to a textbook. Good stuff.
Freedom is drinking a beer in the park when you're supposed to be at work.
Software companies pay the vendors to include the bloatware. HP and Dell are making tons of money including all the extra bloat. How are you going to replace the revenue stream?
Bloatware is generally on a computer to help subsidize the cost down to "commodity item" prices. Removing the bloatware will increase the price of a computer. As the majority of people would prefer a cheap computer (with bloatware) over one with no bloatware, this is something unlikely to change.
That aside, and possibly also related to this, bloatware of certain categories helps fund the support marketplace. Most notably are things like trial antivirus software, that numerous computer purchasers let the trial expire and no longer receive definition updates, putting them at risk of malware infections. I've had a lot of customers come in with infected machines and tell me "but I had CrappyTrial 2011 installed" - at which point I find that the trialware subscription service expired 3 months ago. As sad as it is, I know it helps our business gain tech work. And I am sure it helps the big box places as well.
Other options include having a machine custom built - which of course will mean paying more, since there are generally no bloatware subsidies. At least on a PC, it's pretty easy to remove the bloatware.
StarTrekPhase2 - The Five Year Mission Continues!
Apart from the obvious reasons, one of the things that vendors should take seriously is the initial impression a bloated system has on their reputation. Joe Average is going to get a bitter taste in their mouth when that fancy new laptop is bugged down with crap.
What they should really do is have a Startup menu on first boot that shows a list of special deals & promotions with quick and easy download links for popular free and commercial software and/or have the installation files on the drive that one can delete, but definately not pre-installed.
It doesn't bother geeks, the first thing I do is image the drive (in case I want to re-sell the machine) and slap on a clean image of my OS.
People hate bloatware, but computer companies love money. If a software company gives them money to provide bloatware pre-installed, then of course they are going to take the money. Small computer companies usually don't have as much bloatware because they don't provide the same audience as the big computer companies do, but they also can't match the prices of the big companies. So the choice is really up to you, pay more for a small company that matches your ideology, or pay less for the big companies with bloatware. Or you could always buy the cheaper computer, wipe it, and install a new OS on it.
The second I set it up for someone.
Buy Apple. No bloatware, ever.
if bloatware bothers you that much, just install Linux or one of the BSD's. Problem solved.
We get paid by the vendor to put it there, so that's money to us regardless of the price you pay for the machine. You'll buy the machine regardless of what we put on the desktop, so there is no economic reason to remove it.
You can remove it yourself using the normal software uninstallation process. You can remove the entire operating system if you like. People with opinions like yours have been doing that for decades, now, to put alternative operating systems on the machines. How did that affect our sales? It didn't. So don't expect it to now.
The only thing that could make us change our ways is if it actually starts costing us money, and since boot time is your time, not ours, it doesn't cost us a thing.
Consumers hate bloatware. They also like getting computers for less than the price of the parts that go into it.
Companies don't change their policies because of letters, open or otherwise. Companies change their policies when they see consumers buying something else. Sometimes that "something else" is a lower price. Sometimes that "something else" is a nicer set of features, which might just include not having bloatware.
As long as the OEMs are being paid to include bloatware, they'll be able to score that lower price point. The bloatware may aggravate, but it's not driving the customers away fast enough to make it go away, either.
It's much like web sites. You're getting something cheap because you're looking at ads. You don't like it, go elsewhere.
The first thing I do with a new PC is blow the HDD and rebuild. Yeah, all this bloatware is inconvenient for my parents and relatives (and thus me), but even that is only occasionally bothersome. I fail to see why the majority of the /. users should trouble themselves with this.
Hoist Number One and Number Six.
The companies that put that bloatware on your machine pay to get it there. Without these deals, the manufactures and retailers will now be selling each machine for less profit, and who do you think they'll be passing the "cost" on to?
On the other hand, feel free to buy a Linux or OS X machine. I can't remember hearing about "bloatware" for those.
If you buy a new PC, the first thing you should do is insert the recovery discs (or boot recovery partition) and select the option to install the OS and drivers, and deselect all of the value-added bundled software. In 30 minutes you have a happy bald PC.
I usually don't refer to something as "bloatware" if it comes preinstalled. That's one thing. It's quite another for preinstalled software to automatically start running crap in the background when you boot. THAT is what I consider bloatware, but connotative and denotative and all that. If the software doesn't start pissing away CPU time once the OS fires up, then it's pretty unobtrusive.
Are you saying that computers come with software installed?
Huh. Who knew?
I just always assume the disk is blank and do a fresh install.
Ignorance killed the cat. Curiosity was framed.
is PC Decrapifier. It's free, lightweight, requires no install, and just works. http://www.pcdecrapifier.com/ It's not perfect, but it removes a good hunk of the stuff.
mov ah, 4ch
int 21h
And install an actual operating system.
Try PC Decrapifier. http://www.pcdecrapifier.com/
Rather then cracking open that Add/Remove program list, just run this program and it will run through the process for you.
Life is not for the lazy.
If they didn't install the bloatware (getting paid for it) they would have to up the price of their product... cutting into their market share significantly.
.....does it take to remove all the bloatware from a samll business computers? One reason why I moved out of desktop IT was that it was such a pain to setup desktops for office staff. Even as a consultant buying a laptop for a client and configuring it for their needs, I just didn't like charging my $120 an hour to delete the crap that came preinstalled.
They come in the dark, only in the darkest.
Build your own computer. Free yourself from bloatware.
Otherwise, GET OFF MY LAWN!
It's crapware, not bloatware. Bloatware is shit like Microsoft's apps which are huge and slow but are at least 'functional' in some sense of the word.
Crapware is all the toolbars and trial virus checkers and other rubbish which is responsible for your machine taking 20 minutes to boot up and the drive light to never quite go out.
They not only add the bloat, they do what they can to prevent the crap from being removed.
Just yesterday I helped a cousin reinstall Win7 on a near-new Sony Vaio after their utilities decided to "helpfully" blow away the whole system including all data (fortunately, nothing vital was lost). I admit I have very little experience with Windows these days, but hunting down the needed drivers from Sony's website shouldn't take four freaking hours for someone doing IT for 25 years. They assume their recovery partition is the be-all and end-all and can never be wrong -- or perhaps, they are afraid someone may want to get rid of their precious crapware.
The creatures outside looked from Alt-Right to Antifa; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
Or nuke the existing OS and install Linux.
It'll work out cheaper as well, even at the loss of your Windoze license.
I've build all the computers for myself and my family. It' really doesn't take long and it becomes a nice weekend hobby. Retail on the specs for the machines I build are upwards of $2000. But we pay as little as $800 for them. If I was going to build a budget conscious one, retailing for $300 or $500, I would probably build it for less than $200. Look into it and stop giving them a reason for bloatware.
I thought they could reduce the cost of the PC by pre-installing this bloatware they would get paid by the bloatware manufacturer. I don't mind wiping it to get a cheaper PC but its when you run their recover CDs that it can be confusing to work out what is bloatware and what is drivers. Some of the bloatware is their own software that is meant to provide a "better experience".
The U.S. Postal Service delivers my paper waste recycling material twice a week, in the form of "Coupons" and "Specials" and so forth.
I made strenuous efforts to remove myself from the distribution list. Found the advertising agency's phone number, in the very fine print; called repeatedly; got no reply.
Postal regulations provide a mechanism for "take me off your list, stop sending this junk!" ... but only when the junk mail is addressed to a particular household. In this case, the junk mail isn't addressed to a particular household -- instead, the junk is bulk-distributed to every household in the neighborhood.
I went to my local post office and spoke with the clerk, who was sympathetic, but said, essentially: "I can't stop sending you this junk mail -- the advertisers pay the Postal Service too much money."
Same with bloatware. Yes, it sucks. Yes, we hate it. Yes, it's morally reprehensible. And yes -- PC manufacturers will keep on loading machines with bloatware precisely because there is so much money to be made.
-kgj
Most major brand motherboards (for example) you buy will come with at least one cd. You have to look at each application very carefully, often their names are not intuitive and there is no description. If you want to install chipset drivers, video, sound & maybe the update app, you will have to know what you are looking for.
It really amuses me that this story has a "HP" icon. Their printer software is bloaty, proliferous, and doesn't really even work that well.
Or you could just uninstall the shit instead of installing more shit!
Geeze! What a stupid fucking suggestion and that software is shit!
You pay your taxes in one way or another.
Just shop at a Microsoft store (online or at retail). The PCs they sell are part of their "Signature" program whereby they remove all crap/bloatware and optimize the Windows install to run its best on that hardware.
Of course it's a bit more expensive, but it looks like it's worth it for the performance improvements and lack of hassle that you get.
No, i don't work for MS. I just think it's a good option.
http://signature.microsoft.com/
"stick it all on a thumb drive and include it with every new machine"
To quote Neo, the problem is choice.
The solution being proposed involves giving consumers a greater choice. The aim of bloatware is to discretely deny choice. In the eyes of the PC makers, the solution and the aim are incompatible.
If I'm punching you in the face, me stopping punching you is not a solution I'm interested in. You need to start thinking about moving away.
Mr. Willington's fevered rantings. In fact please put MORE bloatware on new computers! You see, I'm a computer consultant, and derive a significant sum of money each time a neighbor/friend/referral asks me how to remove your products from his new computer. Since your software causes considerable delay at each bootup if left untouched, they are amazed at how it responds when I am through, and are very eager and grateful to pay my fees! If you could perhaps slip in a few easy-to-clean viruses or computer worms, those would be appreciated as well.
Chaos maximizes locally around me.
Im convinced that the 30-day anti-virus trial software is the one of largest reason so many computers owned by average users get infected.
"But I have anti-virus!" "Technically, yes you do. It expired one and a half year ago. And you have ignored the pop-up notice ever since."
But its not only 3rd party trial software that should go away. My Dell laptop with 7 multimedia button had a tray app that took up 60MB of RAM and 3% of the CPU.
And then there is support clients, "Cool application launchers" and other crap that is branded with Dell logos.
You feel sleepy. Close your eyes. The opinions stated above are yours. You cannot imagine why you ever felt otherwise.
Sorry, but just had to say it. A UNIX-based OS with a nice GUI, what's not to love? For me, completely worth the extra $.
If I had to have a PeeCee, then I'd install Ubuntu over all the bloatware (extra stuff I'd never want) and all the crap ware (the Windows OS).
You know the first thing people ask them when they buy a computer?
"Does it come with MS Office?"
Mojo kid may be annoyed but the vast majority of consumers who pay money for these computers don't expect to come with nothing.
did you forget to take your meds?
Not every user is computer savvy so they may want said bloatware because it makes things "just work." Which is what a lot of non computer savvy people want. If your computer savvy and don't want the bloatware, just take if off your machine or build your own machine or wipe the os. Having bloatware on the machine isn't a problem for some people and it helps alleviate some of the cost of the commercial computer. Protip: If you factory reset a computer when you first get it it usually deletes all the bloatware. Or at least it has for me.
PS: Once the bloatware chokes out the PC over time, most people will just go an buy a new PC, which means more money for us. So, there you go.
UTF-8: There and Back Again
Every time I deploy a new PC from one of these companies I always format and install windows fresh. Otherwise it's just problematic.
The economic reason is Apple (and soon, linux. This is the year of the linux desktop, right?) I have lost count of how many people have talked about how much better apple is than windows and faster etc. (I don't want to get into a flame war about which is actually better, for my purposes here lets just say they are within range of each other; both w/ strengths and weaknesses.)
I used to wonder why I never ran into any of the problems 'everybody' has w/ windows. I always blew away everything and laid down a clean os when I got a new machine. Then I sat down at one of these dell made loaded up pieces of garbage. It absolutely kills teh experience. The base MS experience is fairly responsive but when you load up the trial ware and tool bars this guy is talking about, it has a serious negative impact.
The feed backloop is broken though. People bitch about the crappy MS OS where it is really dell et al that are crushing the experience. As apple's marketshare (in consumer land) increases, the wintel crowd are going to need to reevaluate.
Dear OEM,
You are not getting my money.
kthnkbye,
Anonymous Computer USer
You know the old saying. Never judge a book by its cover. While the website sucks, the program is quite nice in fact.
I've never used the commercial version, but I think you can script it for mass PC replacement across the network. But generally if you're a fortune 500 company, your desktop/laptops would be shipped with a corporate image anyways. However, ghosting machines or even going so far as to use a MS Windows sysprep process doesn't work well half the time. Mainly, because newer hardware contains things like Bluetooth, biometric scanners, and a TPM chip. Because the serials are different, the software has to be reinstalled anyways because of the whole public/private keys breaking. Because of such issues where re-imaging machines becomes too much a hassle, PC Decrapifier is a good way to go down an alternate path of new PC deployment.
Life is not for the lazy.
I've never understood why people buy new computers or new cars. Both of them lose their value ridiculously fast, and unlike a car, computers don't even wear out (generally speaking). I'm happy that people do buy new computers, though. If they didn't, then I wouldn't be able to get $200 refurbs!
I don't respond to AC's.
I can understand where he's coming from, but wouldn't Firefox, Open Office, etc also count as "bloatware" under this definition? I don't know about anyone else, but I often find that a bare operating system isn't really all that useful. If it were, then we'd still be using MS DOS 5.0 or BSD 4.4-lite/System V UNIX. I like the idea of having a few essential utilities (SiSoft Sandra, 7zip, Lavasoft AdAware), applications (Mozilla Firefox), and eye candy (extra fonts and desktop backgrounds) preinstalled on my computer, but -- and here's the problem -- I want it to be actually useful. I don't want crappy trial software from IBM, Microsoft, Symantic, etc. When I was building computers, I preinstalled everything on them that I automatically installed on my own PCs. Was that bloatware? If not, why not? It seems like a lot of people think a brand new PC should come with a blank hard drive, and I agree with that, if we're talking about power users and IT professionals, but for most home users, who can't figure out how to install a program from CD/DVD, is this still true? Should they have to go to a computer store and pay $100 just to have someone put a CD or DVD in the drive and click "next" a few times? That seems a bit evil. In my experience, a great majority of people require a period of hand-holding after buying their first PC, and I'm not just talking about grandmas and grandpas here. People of my generation (~35 years old) seem pretty damn clueless.
How MUCH do you get paid? I would not like it, but I would pay a "fee" to not have all the crap installed.
I really shouldn't have used someone else's email address for this account.
Don't blame the computer assembly company....blame the actual authors of the code. Put up a hall of shame and make sure that you are very specific about which tool sucks and why it sucks. And what personal problems the authors must have to create such monstrosities. If its phoning home, clearly document what its doing.
When the refrain becomes "XYZ company sucks because this POS stuff they load on computers does this...", then they will fix their code. If your computer boots 15seconds faster without the stuff, Document it! Include a little screenshot with some funny/creative commentary: "This is such a load off my computer, here is how you get rid of this computer disease"...
Embarrass them!
PS. Buy from our premium line, and we include less or no crap. Also, we'll include Bare-OS reinstallation disks. (since they only cost us a few pennies)
Also, Place a big enough order (more than 250 @ once), and we'll custom load the HD image of your choosing onto each and every machine.
Why aren't you encrypting your e-mail?
How hard is that? It's how the system works. If you don't like a product, don't buy it.
The end.
When you assume, you make an ass out of you. Just you. Not me.
you mean you read slashdot, and the first thing you do when you get a new PC is *not* format it, re-partition it and install it the way you want? Times have changed...
I make no guarantees about other manufacturers but I remember getting an Acer laptop several years back that came prepacked with a good amount of bloatware, and all were painless to uninstall. Boot was noticeably quicker and the machine didn't show any signs of stability issues. Granted I'm sure there was this or that left around on the drive but there was nothing actually executing to slow things down in addition to what was normal from a fresh install of Windows.
First thing I Do when I buy a laptop (Build my own desktops) is clean install of my choosing (usually a pirated mod of windows of some sort, so I expect to get modded down heavily). The question is, does anyone think the money they get for all that crap, leads to cheaper computers??
One of the many reasons I'm looking forward to the new Asus Tablet (ep121), these two points on the review blew me away:
"Flipping the slate over reveals a wonderful treat – no product stickers! Absolutely none. No certification labels, serial numbers, product codes, etc. Just a very elegant representation of the Asus logo centered on a striking white surface."
"Once a user goes through the usual configurations prompts of a new PC (entering a date, time, user name, etc) the desktop appears. Normally we are exposed to a desktop that is covered with icons, a dozen or so trial offer popup messages, anti-virus warnings, etc. If you’ve ever purchased a PC before, you likely know the experience all too well. Get ready – this is what the desktop looks like on the EP121 at first boot: It almost looks like a clean installation! There is no pre-loaded anti-virus software, no “special offers” or annoying prompts to wade through. Just Windows! Even the desktop background is the default Windows background! The only pop-up I received was a registration notice for the Asus support site (which I was happy to do)."
http://ep121.wordpress.com/2011/01/08/the-ep121-product-tour/
The solution seems pretty simple. If you still wish to include loads upon loads of third-party software, stick it all on a thumb drive and include it with every new machine. Problem solved.
This is about as naive a solution as I've seen suggested on Slashdot in a long time. How did this story even get accepted? The suggested solution is to reduce the effectiveness of the advertising, thus reducing the amount of money the PC manufacturers can charge to the advertisers, and increase the cost of the delivered product by requiring an additional bit of hardware to be included that would also require a coordinated documentation for installation instructions and training for customer service.
Right. That there is a top quality suggestion by someone who is savvy and experienced in the ways of the world.
Put my fist through my alarm clock with its ding-dong death inside my ear. - The Blackjacks.
Bloatware is not going away, it is getting worse. Try to buy an Android phone that is not riddled with the manufacturers own crapware throughout it.
Motorola, Samsung, HTC, Acer, Dell - you name it, every one has their own version of crap they layer on top of Android in the name of "branding". Sure, some of it is actually decent (IE HTC Sense), but even that which *IS* - wouldn't it be better if that was a) pushed into the Android core, or b) made an optional installable app? There is no reason most of this stuff should not be optional apps - but the fact is that unless you root your phone, most of it is impossible to remove.
Heck Verizon even goes to the level of replacing Google with Bing!
The one thing I will give Apple about iPhone is that they at least ENFORCE that companies can not touch the OS. You buy an iPhone from Verizon, ATT, Orange, or retail - it will be 100% identical. Any "customizations" have to be done in stand-alone app, none of them mess with things like email, or dialers, or other junk.
Local stores don't do this and they build a pc with current components and just install the os. Buy and support local companies and be green and free of bloatware.
i agree it would be expensive without the bloatware, AND if you know the term "bloatware" then you probably know how to remove it!!!
The crapware is there because the crapware authors pay Dell/HP/et. al. to put it there, subsidizing your low hardware prices. Smart people don't bother booting the default config and just throw an install disk in the drive from the get-go.
If you don't have an install disk and only "restore" disks, you're on your own. Disabling bloatware isn't generally hard.
This is the reason why when/if I buy a name brand PC or laptop, I'll do a compete format and install from scratch. Screw the bloatware, if I were to use decrapify it or whatever the apps called I find that Windoze doesn't really work as well as a vanilla install.
A Win7 install takes about 30 min and is clean. Linux is about a 30 or so minute install as well. The add the apps that are required on top. I know this is not for everybody but its what I do for all my systems, and is quicker than uninstalling all the crapware
I have purchased several machines from Dell, Toshiba and HP at various price levels. The uninstallers work perfectly fine. Even for things you ought not remove if you want OSD and hot buttons and the like to continue working.
On behalf of those of us who know better, I'd like to offer your 'fuck you' right back to you.
Sorry, but this is wrong. The intangible costs of paying support personnel to answer phones regarding issues caused by these applications alone justifies it's complete removal. Consider that this software which is not used, is therefore usually not patched. This means that it's sitting on the machine acting as an exploit vector for attackers who are skilled enough to exploit newly discovered flaws. The other problem with your logic is that uninstall programs very often don't finish the job. Many times there are registry keys, libraries, and other files left behind to waste disk space and other resources. I certainly would rather have the choice to never have the software installed in the first place rather than checking up behind the uninstall to ensure that it really removed everything.
I would strongly argue that not removing these unwanted applications does indeed cost you money. You just don't know how to quantify it.
The only thing that could make us change our ways is if it actually starts costing us money, and since boot time is your time, not ours, it doesn't cost us a thing.
Doesn't losing your ass to Apple in market share cost you money? Have you checked the laptop demographic at your local cafe recently? I was a die-hard PC user for over 20 years. I switched almost exclusively to avoid buying a new laptop and dealing with crapware - and took about two dozen people with me so far. I swear you're losing money one way or another to this...
Well doesn't that sound like a "we'll just make it your problem instead" comment.
Remember that crap flows down from the top *and you also have a supply chain*. What if your vendors suddenly decided to start subsidising their operations by bolting crap onto everything that you use? The game is only fun until *you* start losing. As for this concept that "it's money to us", well, you can extrapolate that idea ad infinitum - right out of the realm of morality if you want. Lets say I'm a bank and I've noticed that I make more money by not giving you your money back. I might also notice that I can cream some of your insurance policies by having you whacked by a $10 nutjob with the blunt end of a baseball bat. Just because you can doesn't mean you should.
And as a side-note; anything that you install on a PC will necessarily increase its attack surface to a would-be hacker. By filling every joe-user PC with crap you essentially make the entire internet community and world-at-large pay for your greed.
Buy from vendors that put fewer crapware on their PCs. It will probably cost you more than the alternative, but that's the price you have to pay to get what you want.
because, majority of people on this planet - sorry - whopping majority of people on this planet, have never heard of DIY computers, leave aside gnu/linux.
it is also their right to have a properly working pc with the money they pay, instead of bloatware. and hence, this article, complaint and the problem explained, are valid.
try to think further than your horizon. think of other people too.
Read radical news here
newegg hasnt hurt pc makers sales?
We already know your opinion, Mr. Torvalds.
seriously, does not really take too much time to figure out what parts you need an order them. Actually building it takes 15 min once you understand how it works.
Apple computers come with tons of crap I'll never use so they aren't immune either. Examples would be: Garageband, iTunes, iMovie and ten other iNoun applications when I use it for work.
Yeah, but those don't start up whenever you boot up your newly bought computer and hog resources to make it nearly unusable. They're also not trial applications that unpromptedly pester you to buy the full thing (though granted, they sometimes promptedly push other Apple stuff on you, like Quicktime Pro).
You can also completely ignore all of the iApps if you want. You can even trivially delete them—drag them to the trashcan, and presto. Software updates for the iApps also happen through the centralized Apple software update tool, so you don't have half a million per-app software update windows popping up every day.
The bloatware problem isn't preinstalled add-on software. It's intrusive preinstalled add-on software.
Are you adequate?
For your particular situation? Here's how you fix that:
--
Step one: build a standard generic OS image, with as many generic drivers as possible.
Step two: boot each new machine of the same type to immediately dump that built image onto the machine (you have choices here - PXE, USB stick, CD, whatever... just make sure it's networked).
Step three: kick back and relax - only takes 20-30 minutes for each box you do.
Step four: install any custom drivers if needed. The generic image will have just enough in it to give you a basic box.
Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
Those that were able to get refunds from Microsoft for un-installing windows had the best of both worlds: The benefit of the bloatware revenue competitively driving down prices and money back from Microsoft (and NO bloatware/crapware/winOS).
This was an important piece missing from the argument when trying to get PC manufactureres and others to offer Linux as an installed/shipping option and expecting a large drop in price.
I can understand why Dell etc. didn't bring it up though...
"When people think of HP and Dell"
...and Sony and Toshiba and emachines/Gateway/Acer and everything that's not custom built. Seriously, who doesn't do that? Even ASUS preinstalls some sort of optional utilities that are flashy but sometimes resource intensive. They're not even advertising really, it's mostly graphical flash and shortcut key/multitouch effects they add.
The problem is, where do you draw the line? If it comes with no antivirus, lazy people will not install one. If it was preinstalled with something a lot lighter and better than Symantec like Avast or Nod32 or even the basic Kaspersky, nobody would be complaining. Then they add in a DVD burning suite which is less necessary than in XP but still very nice to have. I myself preinstall Adobe Reader X and Flash 10.1 and Java v23 on all machines I build for people so they have full web functionality and the latest secure version. HP Advisor/Update and the Bing toolbar are unacceptable but where are they going to draw the line?
Google's Super Secret Search Algorithm: SELECT @search_results FROM internet WHERE @search_results = 'good'
Funny you mention that...because the computer manufacturer that has the best reputation for quality and the higher profits margins than any other major computer firm on the planet...doesn't do bloatware. Because it sullies the user experience that was specced out from On High.
I refer, of course, to Apple. Quality does matter. And producing a machine with quality hardware but making it slow as a dog from bloatware is not an overall quality experience.
Try to remove the crapware from my Android phone or any phone...now thats more problematic. Most you have to root/crack/jailbreak and then go through the file structure and remove the files by hand.
Selex
This is the final straw, the last stand.
We will take no more, at least until this bag of cheetos is finished. OMNOMNOMNOM
This is the year that companies have to wise up and realize that they're destroying the experience of the very machines they are marketing so vigorously against their competitors.
Says who? What makes you think they even care about your opinion. You're obviously still buying their hardware even though you're complaining. Otherwise you wouldn't be complaining. I mean, you could always stop buying their shit and just order the parts, right?
it ruins your brand
"Dude, you bought a Dell." The brand is already ruined. That doesn't stop them from supplying most businesses.
why are you saddling your machines with software that makes it less enjoyable to use?
Because they're making money doing it, and so are a lot of other companies.
If you still wish to include loads upon loads of third-party software, stick it all on a thumb drive and include it with every new machine.
That would cost them money.
tl;dr version: they do it because they make money doing so and 90% of the home consumers who buy Dell don't know any better. It's not going to change unless it starts hurting their profits, and quite frankly I don't see how some silly website's (well meant) "open letter" is going to change a damn thing. Enjoy your Dell.
Why yes, I'm a cynic, why do you ask?
I remember when I tried to hook up to my local BBS using PFS First Choice on a 286! There was no luxury then! There were only murmured prayers and the corpses of freshly-sacrificed male virgins by the amber glow of my CRT to guide me! To uninstall anything required a complete reformat of the hard drive, and bashing my daddy's head in with a guitar!
Here's to hot beer, cold women, and Glaswegian kisses for all.
I'd rather see them put an end to the original bloatware: the Windows Registry. Howzabout we unregister the Registry? That would certainly make my "experience" vastly more pleasant.
I mean if it takes a hundred dollars off the price I would normally pay for my PC hardware... why exactly should I care?
It's not even spyware, just crappy applications that can be uninstalled. And if all else fails just install Linux.
HP and Dell should still install this software that subsidizes the cost of the computer, but demand that it be coded to have no impact on boot time (like portable applications). Media Player Classic is a perfect example of this.
My Process is as follows:
Buy shiny new laptop (desktop machines I build myself)
Remove hard drive and place in drawer.
Install new hard drive.
Load Slackware.
Live happy!
Bloatware and Crapware remain untouched, while I still receive the subsidy. After the warranty period expires, format the original hard drive and save for the next machine. I can do all this in less time than it takes to through the Microsoft setup wizard then delete all the garbage.
After confirming the PC works OK : Install an easy to use Linux.
The formated harddisk and reinstalled Linux OS works like a new PC.
When the first thing you do is drop a Linux CD in there and wipe the drive clean. Shit, I don't even get prompted to accept a license agreement. If you don't want to pay an OS tax (Windows or Apple flavor,) you need to build your own system from scratch, though. You might be able to get Dell to agree to discount you the price of a Windows license, but you can bet Microsoft gets a cut from every CPU sold by them.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
I build my own desktops and servers. Laptops I buy from a reputable national manufacturer which means getting a boat load of crapware. I fire up the system to make sure it "works" with the pre-installed crapware and Windoze and then repartition the hard drive with Linux getting the bulk of the space and Windoze relegated to what amounts to a maintenance partition. While I could shrink the windoze partition and then remove the crapware, I just blow it away and do a clean install. I end up with a nice clean system running Linux with a dual boot to windoze if some pathetic piece of windows software won't run under wine.
Cheers,
Dave
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither safety nor liberty.
Ben
How do you know? We don't write in and tell you when we decide not to buy your machines because of the crapware. We just buy from someone else (maybe even from Apple), and you'll never find out.
I buy business machines from a local, privately-owned retailer: I get the same 3-year next day warranty that big boys give, quality Intel motherboards/CPUs with Kingston RAM; quality StarTech PSUs and cases, assembled by knowledgeable technicians.
If/when there's a hardware issue, I drop it off, they handle the RTM and have in-stock spares to get the machine up-and-running again quickly. Sure beats going through the usual scripted interrogation with a Dell rep on the other end of the line or having to ship it back.
Best of all, no bloatware.
body massage!
It might be a bass-ackward system, but manufacturers who are making money hand-over-fist selling real estate on their hard drive subsidize my income. Incidentally, if anyone doesn't want their new PC saddled with bloatware, I'd be happy to re-image it with the (legit) OS of your choice for a nominal fee.
The aim of bloatware is to discretely deny choice. In the eyes of the PC makers, the solution and the aim are incompatible. Better than continuously denying choice!
The PC manufacturers are paid to include the "bloatware" on their systems, its a rather lucrative way to offset costs. I dont think anyone wants to see the low end of laptops going for $700 again...its those subsidies that make the $300-$400 laptop possible.
Microsoft tried this over ten years ago... Do people have no sense of history when it comes to computers?
Go look up the monopoly case against Microsoft, a large portion of the case was Microsoft's restrictions on OEMs on what modifications could be made to the OS. Microsoft supported bootup customizations (logos, support info, etc.) but the line was drawn in the sand when Microsoft started requesting 3rd party applications to be something that the OEM did not load and instead the user could optionally install them.
OEMs didn't want to lose this gravy the installed application money they received, and is why there was no lawsuit against Corel/Wordperfect for having the same contract that required the OEM to put Wordpefect Office on all systems sold, yet there was a lawsuit against Microsoft for the same contracts for both Windows and Microsoft Office.
(OEMs only got a better deal of about $5 per copy off of Windows if they included Windows with every system sold, and the greedy OEMs that went along with this, were also the ones that later on were in court testifying against Microsoft for offering them 'cheaper' deal that they willingly took. Smart OEMs paid the extra $5 for OEM copies of Windows and didn't have to bundle Windows with each computer sold.)
Anyway, this won't happen soon, as the money the OEMs make far out weighs the poor image of the crap that gets loaded on their computers creates about their computers.
Microsoft is stilly trying to get OEMs to reduce or make the 'optional' software a user initiated installation, and has even created an installation platform for OEMs and 3rd party software to use so that people get a true Windows experience on first boot, and can add all the crap they want that the OEM gets a kick back for by installing or using the software which initiates the install. (Microsoft's own software even uses this with Office and even Live Essentials which was formerly OS applications are optional installs for users.)
However, getting OEMs to stop taking 'bribe' money for loading crap, dream on... And with the Monopoly ruling against Microsoft, Microsoft no longer has any authority or say in how Windows is deployed. (Go read up on the lawsuit, why it really was a scam, and even people like the former CEO of Netscape later admitted it was a bad ruling, that he had previously testified and supported until he got to see the money and intent behind the ruling that came from the USA and the EU out of it.)
I look at the price of some of the systems out there, and I can only assume that without 30-day Office 2010 trial editions and all the other crap they'd probably be in the hole.
Maybe it's because of their bloated marketing budget. Where I live, no-name systems are still cheaper by half. The systems have zero marketing by definition. So maybe that's where the price difference comes in. The dudes at the marketing department of Branded System X have to eat somehow.
On the other hand, it might be due to the cheapo parts in the no-name system. However, I doubt there would be that much of a difference since (at least as far as budget PCs are concerned) the main components like RAM and HDs are manufactured by only a handful of large companies (OEMs). If anything the Branded manufacturer is likely to benefit from higher discounts from presumably buying more units per component than the neighborhood PC assembler (who is more likely to source his purchases from a second tier distributor).
There's clearly a market (small, you may say... and I'd agree) that WANTS crapware free computers...
Why don't they offer a Crapware free PC for $200 more than the Crapware added?
It just doesn't make sense to me... Having that option anyone could tell MojoKid: pony up the $200 extra bucks and quit whinning...
There's a freakin' unattended market there... Also, Dell tells McAfee: You know what, your trials will increase their relevance since those who don't want it won't order it (of course there's the other that will buy for $200 less and then uninstall, but still Dell would offer a somewhat more targeted advertising for more $$/piece)
I mean, even Microsoft is doing it for christ's sake! And they don't have the access to the retail channel... Guess that's why Dell's dying..
Is anyone doing so?? I'm behind on PC industry news..
nethack, the only app that should be on the machine until they figure out how it works. ;)
nethack + floppy disk frustration was the genesis of much of my computer knowledge.
Storm
I watched a colleague of mine hand a receptionist a Ububtu CD, show her how to boot from CD on his own PC and that was it. After the weekend she came back in saying how fantastic it was. She emails, surfs and plays games. What more are computers at home for?
The lady apparently got no help from anyone else in her house and did it while husband & kids were watching TV.
I ask again, what learning curve?
I'll see your Constitution and raise you a Queen.
When I want to know what's in my food, or beer, or cider, or cheese, or computer.
Well, I make it myself.
If I don't care I get a take away,
if I really don't care I buy something from the shops ready made.
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
On the other hand, if the reviewers like this guy complaining actually had a section of the review for each machine to review the bloatware, and then the quality of the bloatware was a factor in their final X-out-of-10 rating, perhaps it might create a push from the manufacturers to make the bloatware suck less.
But that would mean the guy complaining would have to do actual work in each review... far more difficult than just ranting.
Linux was to me, the smart bomb for all that bloatware. It serves more than one purpose, however. Eliminating Microsoft software also reduces the chance that web developers will be enticed to program their site just for Windows. By using Chrome or Firefox on Linux, I'm "voting" for software freedom - freedom to use the software I want, and freedom from bloatware.
This in turn will make Windows server software seem less appealing to those same programmers and their supervisors and the investors in the company. That could mean one less hideously expensive sale for Microsoft.
Before I blew away the partitions on the drive, I made the install DVDs in the event that I would ever need them again for someone who really wants to use Windows if I ever give the machine away or sell it. But in my hands, this machine isn't going to run Windows. See? I believe in freedom of choice.
I'm being a bit idealist here, I know. But I can dream a little, can't I?
The diversity and expression of human opinion is essential to human survival.
We get paid by the vendor to put it there, so that's money to us regardless of the price you pay for the machine. You'll buy the machine regardless of what we put on the desktop, so there is no economic reason to remove it.
No we won't. We'll buy tablets or other gadgets with the money that don't turn our spare time into an endless struggle. That's the point being made here. Being dense like this is ruining your industry and will likely have you out of a job. Wake up.
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
I just bought a Thinkpad from Lenovo and it had almost no crapware (with the exception of Windows itself, and the stupid time-bombing version of MS Office that I will never use). You do realize that just because HP and Dell are the two biggest players in the market does not mean they are the only ones, right?
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
I do with a new computer is to boot it up, then shut it down, pull the HD out, store it with the expiration date of the warranty, install a new clean HD, install the OS I want and set it up the way I want. After the warranty expires, I wipe out the factory HD, and put it on the shelf.
The market for OSX wouldn't be half so strong if wintel boxes weren't uniformly jacked with this stuff.
I believe that tech evangelist Upton Sinclair said it best -- I think this was in one of his columns in an early issue of Byte magazine:
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it."
(Upton Sinclair, if you've never heard of him, was the coinventor of the Timex Sinclair -- he's not as well remembered as Wozniak, Jobs, or Gates, but he's far more quotable.)
We get paid by the vendor to put it there, so that's money to us regardless of the price you pay for the machine. You'll buy the machine regardless of what we put on the desktop, so there is no economic reason to remove it.
You can remove it yourself using the normal software uninstallation process. You can remove the entire operating system if you like. People with opinions like yours have been doing that for decades, now, to put alternative operating systems on the machines. How did that affect our sales? It didn't. So don't expect it to now.
The only thing that could make us change our ways is if it actually starts costing us money, and since boot time is your time, not ours, it doesn't cost us a thing.
so there you have it, straight from the horses mouth ... they don't give a fuck about the end user - so shut up and put up with it because we make lots of money ... bend over little kid and show me the money
Let me fix the initial summary a bit and I think you'll see what I mean:
This is the final straw, the last stand. This is the year that newspapers/magazines/television channels/websites/other forms of media or platforms have to wise up and realize that they're destroying the experience of the very products they sell. We're talking about advertising, and it's an issue that we simply cannot remain silent on any longer. The term 'advertising' generally refers to any additional crap inserted in a product that is not a necessary or desired for the use of the core product itself. 'Advertising' is usually provided by third-party companies, and can range from the awkward to the creepy or horrifying. It's quite problematic, and these ads generally show up first thing, right as the product is first opened or becomes visible, before the consumer ever has a chance to use the product as intended. It's time for product makers to take note: consumers do not want advertising. It's a royal pain from top to bottom, and moreover, it ruins your brand. When people think of Company X or Company Y, they immediately think of just how infuriating it is that their latest product took a virtual eternity to sit through or skip by the cruft before it became usable. To these companies: why are you saddling your products with advertising that makes it less enjoyable to use? The solution seems pretty simple. If you still wish to include loads upon loads of third-party advertising, stick it all in an appendix/on a separate channel/in a .zip and include it with every new product. Problem solved.
The sad truth is, just as people are willing to accept commercials on channels that they pay a monthly fee to watch, full-page ads in magazines that they pay an annual subscription rate in order to read, and skyscraper or banner ads on websites that they've registered and paid to use, people are willing to put up with bloatware. It's just part of using the product.
Some companies care about their brand enough to either take a stand and cut prices elsewhere, or else they charge a premium in order to avoid the issue. But for those that want to come in at the low end, this type of advertising, and that's what bloatware is, is an additional way to subsidize the costs of the machines. I won't suggest that asking them to remove bloatware is as ludicrous as asking TV channels to remove commercials would be, but suggesting that it's as simple as sticking it on a thumb drive is missing the point entirely.
I think a bigger issue than pre-installed crapware is the crapware that Adobe and Oracle are shipping now as part of their security updates. Updating Adobe Reader tries to trick you into installing some sort of McAfee scanner, and updating Java tries to trick you into installing a Yahoo! toolbar.
Customers don't want this shit, so they learn not to install security updates. And vulnerabilities in old versions of Java and Adobe Reader are some of the more common worm targets.
Doesn't everyone wipe the disk and install LInux or BSD as soon as they get home? I'm confused.
Thus spake the master programmer:
"When the program is being tested, it is too late to make design changes." (Tao)
not bloatware
Meanwhile Apple slowly erodes your share of the PC market and rakes in an amount of profit per machine that you could only dream of, while you're getting by on razor thin margins and ruining your customers experience by supporting those margins with crapware. Sounds like a winning strategy.
I've setup a lot of Dell PCs, and there isn't that much bloatware on them. Moreover not that many programs starting up upon logon. Usually you have to disable the Dell dock that's it.
HP on the other hand...
I don't have a problem with the programs being on the drive, per se. It is the proliferation of programs that think that they NEED to be running all the time, when most would work just fine to launch when requested and then close cleanly when the user is done with them.
Likewise, you should pick the components you want in your PC and build your own. That way when you install your OS you get the added benefit of no bloatware.
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
"You'll buy the machine regardless of what we put on the desktop,..."
Put another way, dogs will eat what's put in their dish.
Actually, the bloat generally begins long before 3rd-party tinsel attaches itself to an OS. What parts of Vista actually are crucial to the utility of the OS?
The OP's frustration is probably because they think the market is not working right. If people knew what the OP does, which is that the seller is taking ~$50 to make the computer perform worse (they could have a much better computer for $50 more), people would make different choices. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_asymmetry
This situation is a textbook example of a tragedy of the commons. Each PC manufacturer stands to gain from including bloatware. Consumers generally don't decide between different PC makers based on the amount of bloatware installed (because they all have it), so the cost is practically nothing, while the direct, short-term financial benefit is substantial.
However, consumers *do* consider subjective frustration when choosing a computing platform, and bloatware increases the frustration consumers feel toward the PC platform as a whole, reducing its market share. In short, bloatware is like pollution: nobody pays to dump sewage in the river, but everyone gets sick.
There are two common solutions to the commons problem: regulation, which isn't really feasible in a private market like that for PCs, or property rights that give actors an incentive to maintain the commons. The latter tactic explains why walled gardens have grown so explosively: their "owners" (Apple, Google, and to some extent, mobile carriers) have a strong incentive to not pollute the market.
..."open letter" written using MS Word?
Have gnu, will travel.
Back in the olden days there was an assumption that if you didn't build your own PC it was a smoldering piece of shit. Some interesting exceptions. There was a ROM version of Dos on my Tandy PC, that thing was so tweeked that it was like its own OS. It booted faster than any operating system to date. It was just on(flick, booted!). 'Just on' will come one day again ... maybe. You couldn't change that version of Dos but you could boot a newer one from floppy but for the apps we used there was no need... you needed to build a real PC for gaming, as cool as Hercules was for its high res; the lack of good sound card support or a feasible hard drive upgrade was the death of the Tandy.
Nothing ever changes, just the details.
You'll buy the machine regardless of what we put on the desktop, so there is no economic reason to remove it.
I know for a fact that is not true, because $1500 have been lost in sales from my immediate family alone, and the bloatware is the sole reason.
People ask me for advice on what to buy, and I now tell them Apple, and the problems with bloatware are the sole reason. That is $1500 is not the money that went to Apple, that is money the would have spent PC laptops. More went to Apple, and it has been worth the extra money.
Pretty much all the problems they were having were bloatware related, and when they would let format and put "plain, off the shelf" Windows their systems worked. However, they don't want to jump through the hoops to get the equivalent of a boxed OS from the manufacturer. They don't know how format the drive, and install a clean OS, and get the drivers. They don't want to wait til the next time I visit to get and use their computer. (And I don't want to spend that precious time building their systems either.)
It got to the point that I would refuse to assist them with their PC problems, in any way, if it the system had not been wiped (including the"recovery" partition), and had an "off the shelf" OS installed. If they did not want to do that, they could get an Apple, and feel free to call me with problems. A couple went the "wipe and start fresh" route, but most just decided to get Macs. Either way, support calls are now few and far between, and the Windows people were just as happy as the OS X people. But then, as the bloat on PCs become more and more attached to device drivers, all of their purchases became Macs.
The Dells, HPs, etc. (From your message, I assume you work for one of them.) can continue to think that bloatware does not take its toll on their bottom line. Or, they can open their eyes, see Apple kicking their asses in customer satisfaction, profits, and increasing market share. Ditch the bloatware, and maybe that trend will reverse.
Interesting that /. would choose to put an HP logo in an article about crapware.
Manufacturers charge extra to provide a plain Windows install disc with your computer purchase. I guess you could consider that your "crapware free" fee.
Oh no! I'm too ignorant to run Linux!
What parts of Vista actually are crucial to the utility of the OS?
That's what I often think when I have 3 versions of Ubuntu to choose from and know that even the smallest is still about 1200% bigger than a DSL install.
Oh, sorry. I didn't realize you just wanted a mindless Microsoft bash. My bad. Maybe next time.
A cheap schmuck gets the crapware-loaded PC and thinks it's a deal.
A cheap geek gets the crapware-loaded PC and nukes the system as soon as he gets home, customizing it to perform as it should be.
A smart geek completely builds their own system, never having seen a piece of bloatware.
A rich geek buys a Mac and wonders what ever happened to bloatware.
I did wish Microsoft would throw in a "1-click bloatware removal" requirement into their OEM agreement, it's not hurting Dell/HP/Gateway's image nearly as much as it's hurting people's perception of Windows PC in general.
Why does the writer say "OS" in the letter. It is not a problem with any OS other then Windows. You choose to use a crappy marketing-driven OS, default-installed (and thus sponsored OS). So deal with the shit that comes with it.
To summarize what has already been said.
I have a solution guaranteed to keep you from ever even seeing the bloat-ware. Step one: Download a Linux ISO and burn to a CD. Step two: put CD in drive when you first start the computer Step three: install Linux and enjoy. Your machine will run faster, virus free, and no bloatware! Who would have thunk it?
"The term 'bloatware' generally refers to any additional software installed on a machine that is not a native part of the operating system"
uhm, no... bloatware generally refers to bloated, useless software.
If they loaded Firefox and VLC not many people would complain.
Most people don't complain when they load MS Office or OpenOffice either.
The problem is that they load CRAP... ... or it's time-limited versions of stuff... so the users can't really use it. ... or it's some really crappy software ... so the users don't want to use it.
It's either cripples versions of stuff... so the users can't really use it.
If you load decent useful software, nobody minds, so that's *not* bloatware. Nobody bitches at apple for loading iLife, after all. (Partly, because if you don't want it, it takes 3 seconds to uninstall).
anyway there are two problems here...
1. He is confusing bloatware with crapware
2. He is misdefining bloatware
The poor sod has never heard of the decrapifier?
http://www.pcdecrapifier.com/
... that consumer PC's are one of the most subsidized products on the market. Its why HP and Dell can sell computers for $500 and make a huge profit.
But I gotta plug these guys: ZaReason. Good systems, no bloatware.
Responsibility is an addiction
Virtue is a temptation
Community is a cartel
The standard Apple fanboy response to this: buy a Mac. No bloatware. It's antithetical to good industrial design.
The "final straw"? Or else...WHAT?
"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
I'm on macs 98 percent of the time but periodically (2 percent that winds up being more do to all the wasted bloatware time) I have to show someone at work how to do something on a previously purchased pc and its infuriating all the crap that one has to put up with on a pc. Unfortunately I have a feeling most people have no idea and just assume this is the way it is.
Since most people with "bloatware" are not sophisticated enough for Linux, they should get a Mac.
If you look at the component costs, a Mac is comparably priced.
Bloatware is pure gravy to companies which load their PCs down with it.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
Though I do make a fair living out of re-installing peoples machines that simply can't handle the crap installed on them. A lot of people hated Vista, but I never really found it as big a problem as people made out. Then I realised that most Vista issues were caused by the third party crap that got installed on most machines people had experienced the OS through. After re-installing without all the crap I would generally get amazing responses from customers who found their system now ran faster than it did when they bought it.
I've always bought the business (Latitude) line of Dell laptops, and never have I seen "bloatware" or anything of the sort preinstalled.
-David
Oh, Please... we all know how effective laws and petitions have been for 20 years to change the opt-out/opt-in "bit."
CDs/Thumb drives only work for secondary hardware that a user is perfectly willing to do some extra work to adapt to his machine.
Who do you think might start losing buyers for "failing to deliver an out of the box experience that feels complete"?
I don't know if any HP / Gateway reps read this, but on Saturday a friend of mine asked what kind of computer he should but for his daughter and for basic accounting. I said pretty much anything is good there days, just don't buy a HP or a Gateway because it is slow due to the fact it is loaded up with crap. He laughed and said HP was the most expensive anyways. Not an exciting tale by any means, but I've been on Mac for years now, and even I know to steer well clear of these companies.
If you hate bloatware, then
1) Custom-build your computer. Be willing to pay at least OEM for your OS. Note that 'nix "OEM" costs $0.
2) Buy a prebuilt package and pay for a subsidised, crapware infested version setup that includes Windows. Then re-install Windows (or Linux) without re-installing the other crap.
3) Buy a Mac. You'll pay more $$$, but won't have to spend as much time fixing/customizing things.
4) Pray to God that He will release a system that is cheap, Free as in Speech, free of crapware, and delivered to you by a unicorn.
It's not rocket science. And if you hate crapware but can't be bothered to setup/customize your system (to reiterate, there are options to minimize either time or money)... then learn to live with the indignity.
... and maybe it'll be the year that soda vendors wise up to not putting 3 table spoons of salt in their thirst-quenching beverages.
-- A change is as good as a reboot.
Msconfig & System Management are your friends. Safe mode is your friend. Failing that -> Linux Distro LiveCD is your friend ;)
I see a lot of comments regarding crapware vendors paying OEMs to include the software and this offsetting costs.
I find this a bit odd. I am one of the co-owners of a software shop (posted as AC for a reason), and we get included on systems (by well known OEMs) as well. However, we don't pay a dime for this (nor do we get paid), we get asked by the OEMs if they can include trial versions of our software on those devices. It adds functionality to the device, and if the user likes it, we earn some money.
While I certainly do understand that certain shops pay for this privilege, I wonder just what the ratio is. How much is asked vs. how much is paid for ? Seeing the comments it would seem a 100% paid vs. 0% asked, but I know for a fact that this is not the truth.
(Note that our software doesn't bother the user, it doesn't auto-startup, it doesn't show dialogs, etc. If you don't choose to use it, all you'll ever see or notice is the icon. If you DO use it after 30 days it will ask you to purchase)
First of all, I never buy Sony or Dell. Second, for many years now the first thing I do when I get a new or used PCis to format the HDD and install a clean copy of my OS of choice. This includes getting rid of any restore or diagnostic partitions. These day my OS of choice is Aptosid (formerly sidux) GNU/Linux, sometimes dual boot with Windows XP. I prefere IBM laptops as their hardware works well with Linux with very little hastle, drivers are easy to find and download, and their service manuals are first rate and freely available for download. As for desktops, building your own is the only way to go.
Far to many people are sucked into buying much more machine in terms of hardware than they need or will ever use. How many average computer users will ever need that quad core machine with 32 gb of ram, a pair of two terabyte hard drives, ang a $750 video card?
Apple
No, seriously. Hate them all you want, but they got this part right. Maybe it's because they care about user experience, maybe it's just because Steve's ego wouldn't allow anyone else to be there when the system starts the first time. One way or the other, the end result is the same.
PC makers? Wrong address. None of those guys have gotten anything right for at least 20 years.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
I had been waiting for a post like this for quite sometime. There is a program to deal with precisely this.
http://www.pcdecrapifier.com
The only issue I have with bloatware is sometimes it is just easy to completely overwrite the drive with zeros, then do a fresh installation. Often it is also much faster.
All cows eat grass!
Stupid consumers dont know the diffrence:
A use bought an HP printer, installed the 10k help files from the CD.
Virus scanning comes to a complete halt looking through what? HP jar files for their help system.
Printer fails....help is no help.
User purchases a Cannon Printer, Installs from CD.
CD installs ( dear god ) spyware and buy from cannon garbage.
Virus scanner chokes after chewing thru all the HP help files still installed,
and chokes on the Cannon spyware.
User gives up, and buys another HP printer.
Virus scanner chokes on 2 sets of HP helpfull jar files, cannon spyware,
and how user wants to get another Cannon printer?
It cannot be helped.
That's it! (What software that does come with them is excellent, such as Garage Band, iPhoto etc on some machines.)
I own a Thinkpad, and I recall reading this blog entry:
http://www.lenovoblogs.com/insidethebox/2007/01/thinkpad-power-manager/
In which a software developer at IBM/Lenovo moans about how the software he works on is treated as "junk in the preload." You kinda feel bad for the guy, and he makes a convincing argument that there are proprietary features in LiIon batteries that really could tell you more if you had the software to go with it.
So I go and re-enable the Lenovo Power Manager at startup... and my RAM usage increases by FIVE HUNDRED MEGS! A half gig for a battery readout! Unbelievable! I wanted so badly to throttle the guy that wrote that blog post for not mentioning that critical failure of his crap software that IS junk and DESERVES the removal he whines about.
(For the skeptical, I measured the memory of the app in a few different ways because it just seemed impossible... I got between 501mb and 513mb every which way.)
Point being, there is some small legitimate purpose to this kind of software - but there needs to be some sort of pressure on them to be efficient and either useful or not present. I blame PC review websites. Their reviews are so far off and focused on barely-relevant details that I wonder how many of them are paid for by the manufacturer.
A strong review site that's free to read would make an impact, and a tool that cleans things out that you can trust (perhaps on said review site) would help too - you could offer manufacturers the opportunity to be removed from the "cleanup" list if they get within certain metrics.
But I'm not looking forward to scrubbing the garbage off it. When I built my own PCs in the past I just get an OEM copy of Windows and it's clean. The price of a ready to go PC is less enticing when I have to include buying a clean copy of Windows. And why do I feel like it is more work to clean the junk off a system than to build and install a system from scratch?
If Slashdot truly is "News For Nerds" then why would a nerd be in any way concerned about this?
The price of a new desktop or laptop PC is subsidised as a result of the crapware - if the crapware wasn't there, the PC would cost more.
I'm a computer nerd, I'm never going to be happy with the default OS install on any PC, Windows or Linux, so the first thing I'm going to do is wipe it, build my OS of choice, use the latest BIOS updates/kerne/drivers - so the crapware is irrelevant to me.
But presumably, I get the PC at a lower price because enough newbie users click the "Yes I want to buy a registered version of ..." button to justify the bloatware being there in the first place - so why would I want that to change?
Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
Mint changes all the browsers google search settings to redirect it to a branded Mint page. For ad-revenue. Problem is that the page is horribly broken, missing essential google features and wasting screen space with a Mint logo.
Bloatware ain't just a Windows issue.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
"The term 'bloatware' generally refers to any additional software installed on a machine that is not a native part of the operating system."
No, no it doesn't. Bloatware refers to software which takes a disproportional amount of memory or CPU time.
Ha... nope, take advantage of the lower prices the pc manufacturers can offer due to the bloatware ad revenue stream and massive mass market, return Windows to MS for some money back and load Linux!
No need to pay for a laptop that's too pretty and fragile to touch.. get all the ports you need too.. and SD and HDMI handy. To heck with Mac!
Oh.. I hear Apple finally decided to give their customers built in SD card readers without having to buy the pricey pro model! As you can see.. I'm still greatly disappointed with my brief Mac "masters of design" -phew- experience.
> how infuriating it is that their last 'new' PC took over one minute to boot up and become usable
I am telling you a big secret: if you use Windows and have anti-virus protection installed, your machine, starting from cold, needs at least 3 minutes to become usable and safe. One minute for Windows cold boot and (slightly overlap) about 150 seconds to download, index and install fresh AV updates. If you login before that, the PC will be sluggish for about 5-10 minutes and you are vulnerable for about a quarter hour. I think people simply should have patience. One or three minutes is not much time, modern people waste hours each day on useless pass-times.
My mum got her first ever laptop for Christmas. She is totally PC-illiterate, doesn't browse or email or anything and has little interest but is a big games-player, so we bought it to be a little offline machine for games for her.
Came with Windows 7 pre-installed. I told dad not to touch it yet because I knew it would be bloated. Spent THREE HOURS on New Year cleaning it up of superfluous crap that really had *no* need to be on there at all (so not including things like anti-virus trials, office trials, etc.).
Ran a startup-entry util and cleared out a lot more crap like Adobe updaters etc. Afterwards, got rid of anything that she might "click on by accident" (e.g. trial software) and finally gave it back to them with a couple of Steam games on (AND NO, STEAM, YOU DON'T NEED TO RUN AT STARTUP, nor do I want an advert every time I run you!).
In the end, got to a desktop with a mere half-dozen icons, a start menu with little more than that, one or two taskbar entries more than the default Windows ones (and even some of those I hid) and a startup time that was one EIGHTH of what it was before. No pop-ups, no reminders, no adverts, no spyware, no confusing notifications (do I *really* need to be notified all the time that I've deliberately disabled Windows Update?), and she could play with it without constant "Oh, something's popped up, what do I do?" worries.
Do you honestly need a little "EXIF Launcher" icon for when you plug in an SD card? Or a *second* volume control for your Realtek card? Or a taskbar run-all-the-time icon for Quicktime, Adobe, Java, OpenOffice, etc. No. You're just trying to advertise at me and show me how wonderful your "technology" is in preference to your competitors. Your competitors don't *NEED* to shout at me all day long without my consent in order to get installed, in fact that's the REASON they are installed in preference, or the reason I turn off all that crap in the first place.
Advertise at me without my consent and watch your brand disappear from my machine entirely. And all of those that I manage. The first day of a new network deployment is building a clean image with all necessary software installed without all the junk they want to push to my users.
Like mobile phones, PC's need to get simpler again. If I want to play a video, I use VLC which doesn't show me NOT EVEN ONCE what type of video it is, or a corporate logo for every type. If I want to do that with other players, I can guarantee I have to sit through several splashscreens, configure numerous taskbar icons, install extra software etc. Guess what media player is the default on my networks and my mum's PC?
My desktop isn't your brand-building advertising space. It's the place where I live my IT life. Get your logos off it, or I'll do it for you and find out that it's actually easier to live WITHOUT your logos than with them - I now associate the Apple logo on a computer with a piece of software that needs to be removed, as do my users. And users *complain* when an unscheduled Java update pops up in the middle of a school lesson. Guess what that does for your brand awareness? Nothing positive, I tell you.
I've used the method of backing up the OEM data and reinstalling since WinXP. It has gotten a bit more complicated over the years after Vista and Windows 7 were released but is still the best method.
http://www.zdnet.com/blog/bott/windows-bloat-its-always-been-that-way/18
I would have purchased Windows 7 if they had actually put some useful feature like creating OS images (so you can make your own install CD, based on the software you have installed on top of Windows). I think I've done about 9 clean installs on my machine (Vista) and it's finally stable and working well. The first 4 installs were due to faulty RAM and Windows didn't report this untill I asked it to check. It would have saved me a lot of headache and time if Windows had 'checked' my memory BEFORE doing the origonal isntall.
Hence the higher price.
The term 'bloatware' generally refers to any additional software installed on a machine that is not a native part of the operating system. 'Bloatware' is usually provided by third-party software companies, and can range from security suites to unwanted Web browser toolbars. It's most problematic, as these programs generally attempt to boot up first thing, right as the OS is booting up, before the end-user ever has a chance to launch the program on their own accord.
The term 'bloatware' generally refers to any additional software installed on a machine that is not a native part of the operating system. 'Bloatware' is usually provided by third-party software companies, and can range from security suites to unwanted Web browser toolbars. It's most problematic, as these programs generally attempt to boot up first thing, right as the OS is booting up, before the end-user ever has a chance to launch the program on their own accord.
Oh ******! Doesn't people even know what the FUCK is the operating system?
The operating system is just a very small (and very complex) piece of software in the software system like Windows, Mac OSX or Ubuntu! The NT is the operating system in Windows, a server-client by architecture!
Linux kernel is the operating system, by architecture it is a monolithic operating system!
XNU is the operating system in Mac OS X, a server-client by architecture!
Bloatware has nothing to do with a operating system, it is about software system booting process. Without operating system, none of that fucking "bloatware" would even run!
The operating system is not the fucking user interface, those are totally different softwares. It is not libraries, shells or anything else...
"Bloatware" is bad, but as is Microsoft dominant market position at PC markets, where you can not actually buy a PC without Windows on it (Dont even try to fuck your own brains by saying that Mac is a PC... both are today just a brands of different lines of personal computer lines).
That is the real problem! Force every OEM to offer any their manufactured PC as empty, without extra costs and price cutted down by Windows license (retail, not their own OEM crappy behind-the-doors deals, as customers can not buy it on that price!) amount so it actually would be 50-250 dollars cheaper.
Then if someone wants to buy a pre-installed Windows PC, then let them pay extra (20-50) from that service and fuck themselfs with that "bloatware". If the user is smarter, then he boughts a empty PC, grabs a retail Windows from shelf and install it with few clicks by themselfs. If they dont like or need (new) Windows, they could simply install any other software system or even previously brought Windows retail version.
Yes, Microsoft would loose a dominant market position right away, customers would have freedom to choose and competitors would have free markets to work. Smaller IT stores could survive by feeds what they get by installing Windows and other software.
if a broader definition of bloatware were to include the operating system itself (ahem windoze) I would gladly sign a(nother) petition to prevent its pre-installation. The last time I tried to get a refund for my unused copy of windows, it took several months, and several cases of being passed back and forth between reseller, manufacturer, microsoft, and so on.
My last two computers were from the Tiger Direct (new) parts bin. I have never had so much performance for so little money! If you need to run Windows buy an OEM license. For all this bloat you PAY and for the alleged technical support, which is some marginally trained (but cheap!) person overseas reading a book you also PAY.
"An Open Letter To PC Makers: Ditch Bloatware, Now!"
Or fucking what?
Years ago, Compaq & Lenovo both refused tech support saying (removed) bloatware was required for proper operation & valid warranty. After that, we bought parts, not name brands. Now we use only laptops, so the OEM HDD is replaced before first run & warranty if preserved. Today I can pay $73 for 0.5 GB 7200 R/M drive delivered, ready for Fedora & Kubuntu. All the Windiz, bloatware, federal snoopware & required backdoors remain safely in box with OEM HDD.
So annoying! The last consumer-ready PC i bought was for my wife a few years ago.. I bought it from a big box store, it was brand name (rhymes with HP). It was a rather impulsive buy, and the only reason I bought it was becuase I thought it would be quicker to set up, expecting that she would be able to turn it on, and use it that night. It was so loaded with crap, which I expected, but the most amazing part was the free-trial antivirus (rhymes with Norton) came up identifying the computer as infected, and listed one of the other bloatware trials. I couldn't believe it... Rather than deal with it I just reloaded the system.. It was the first, and last time I will buy a consumer-ready. Even for someone not skilled with computers, its so easy to buy a PC for less than the price of something from a big box store. Pre-assembled, and a copy of windows... windows 7 installs so easy, my grandfather actually did it himself, and thats not an cliche (gramma ready PC), he actually did.
I've never had a problem with the bloatware on any new computers that I've purchased for myself or helped friends/family purchase. Thanks to my job I have copies of the OEM discs for Dell and HP so the first thing that gets done after taking the computer out of the packaging is a full wipe of the OS and a reinstall of just Windows only, no bloat.
Sure this takes a little additional time to set up the computer, but not having to deal with all of that bloatware BS is well worth it.
Any computer I get, I flush the OS anyways, as I can never guarantee how it was installed or if there is no malware already on it.
I usually reinstall linux or xp, and then move on from there, anything else I need is usually that, when I need it...so my machines usually stay pretty fresh and fast for a long time...before needing to reformat, but I use ghost for that to avoid the whole lengthy process...
I think you meant to use the term 'Crapware', not 'Bloatware'.
I would hazard a guess that the number of people really affected by this would be in the minority. I'm in that category, but honestly, the last time this really bothered me was nearly two years ago when I bought my wife and myself a couple of netbooks for college. Being the power user that I am, I actually relished in systematically purging all the crapware that MSI had preinstalled. My wife otoh, not a power user in the slightest, couldn't have cared less.
Chances are, if you know enough about PCs to be bothered by all that bloat, you also know how easy it is these days to simply get rid of it, either by purging or reinstalling a fresh OS. Honestly, it's not that big of a deal, and if it keeps the final cost of the machine below astronomical levels, then by all means, you go ahead and put 50 icons and links all over that desktop, Dell, HP, Gateway, etc.
I wonder if anyone has actually managed to ask a major manufacturer just how much cost savings (if any) is passed on to the end user, or even just to the company itself. It must not be insignificant.
There is simply too much glass..
Windows actually runs better on an Intel Mac than it does on a Dell or HP. Odd, but true.
Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
>This is the year of the linux desktop, right?)
Last year was MY year of desktop Linux, on a hand me down 7 year old brand X box with 1 GB. I coulda got a new machine with Win7 but traded for this one with a nice new monitor instead. Good trade!
HP will NOT support a computer that does not have "their" OS installed. They will inform you that even if you were to install the exact same windows OS that originally came with the laptop if it was not the OS image they provided HP will not consider it a supported OS or even attempt to provide support for you. If you send your laptop for hardware repairs HP will reimage the computer with "their" OS.
It is quite clear from HP that if you buy their computer and clean it up by installing a clean install of Windows you will not get support from them.
I just bought an Acer Aspire One 522... it's a new 10.1" screen netbook with higher than usual resolution and a real GPU (compared to most in this class). It's a great machine. It needs extra memory, which was an oversight on Acer's part... but the biggest failure of Acer on this machine is the crapware. Windows 7 Starter is deliberately crippled crapware. Office Starter is a fat, jiggling pile of crapware. McAfee is a festering, system-resource devouring mass of crapware. Wild Tangent, one of the pioneers in ad-ware style crapware makes the "Acer Games" which is tedious to uninstall. If I left all this crap (and there's a lot more) on this little machine, it would c r a w l. I installed Ubuntu as a dual-boot option, and it's kinda funny how night and day the contrast is.
So, when someone like me goes to review this machine, I'm at least aware of its virtues and can reveal the pros and cons. The average person is getting a slowwwww machine which is already full of adware and crapware, and will be full of viruses as soon as McAfee stops updating. I'm giving it less than 5 stars, and part of that is due to the crapware. The average person is likely going to give a lot less than 5 stars. And the reviews directly impact sales.
This is Slashdot what are we doing talking about Normal Users? lol. There are Slashdot fans who don't build there own computers?
Jack of all trades,master of none
I've never been troubled by preloaded bloatware because the last PC I bought with Windows preinstalled came from an era before this was common. The worst and most annoying stuff there was the "Online Services" microsoft was pushing at the time.
Being bloatware-free is easy: Don't boot your system, install Linux first. I've never seen a Linux system with a serious bloatware problem.
inb4 linux sucks, not ready for desktop, only for servers, grandma can;t use it, doesn't support my whatever, etc, etc
STFU. One problem at a time. I've told you how to eliminate bloatware without cooperation from companies who won't. You fix the next problem.
What also ruins the experience is that windows stinks and has all kinds of viruses. Vote with your feet - stop buying outdated software.
Hmm, my hand-built Linux machines don't see the problem, nor do my purchased laptops which I overwrite the OS with Ubuntu Linux. A basic security rule is that the OEM weakens the chain of trust that the OS is running what you want. If you "trust" Windows then reinstall Windows. Bloatware is a penalty for not understanding the environment & economics PC purchasers enter into. Smarter newbie PC users go to an individual & want a custom build and a walkthrough.
Science & open-source build trust from peer review. Learn systems you can trust.
Similarly, my elderly mother is now excited about Linux because her computer was crawling on Windows but now runs smoothly on Ubuntu. What great marketing for us! Keep up the good work!
Space game using normal deck of cards: http://BattleCards.org
It is quite offensive to pay for a machine and the manufacturers infect them with unwanted software as if they are shoving their junk down the consumer's throat. It actually violates privacy when it comes to what you are purchasing.
If they feel consumers should have their extra software, then they should find an alternative way to distribute that junk; which should be optional for us as consumers.
L2J
....YES!!! Think about the "happy end user"...you know the one who would actually buy from you again IF you built and sold a GOOD product!!!!
Joe Investor
Now I wonder if that couldn't be one of the reasons contributing to how Apple virtually doesn't exist in most of the world (Part 3 of this report, while only about top handsets in each of top20 countries, is fairly representative as far I can tell / from few places I had contact with) - a rather minor reason, sure (way after "Big Mac Index" of course, after big increases in absolute price of any "premium" item - the higher the less prosperous a given place is), but still...
To me, it seems there's not much crapware on any random new laptop; it tends to not ruin the experience. Not much of an incentive, I guess (even for my reasonably prosperous place) - and considering how the OS image needs to be different (localized versions of Windows), it would only require more effort.
One that hath name thou can not otter
Those aren't free and they weren't loaded onto my Mac. (I use NeoOffice [an OpenOffice clone,] anyway.)
Nor do you have the situation with Linux with which you have X different word processors like AbiWord, OpenOffice and lord knows what else, coming on the distro CDs. At least you can pare the list on the distro install.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
If Apple really wanted to take over market share they would try to compete with their prices. You can buy an Apple that has a superior OS, can use Linux software, has nice features, but it it is priced at 1.5 to 2 times the cost of a brand new Windows Laptop with the same hardware. Bloatware cannot possible account for the price difference, neither can the aluminum chassis (you can buy an HP Envy better than the base Macbook Pro for 1000). I simply don't get it. That is one reason I don't like Apple. They could easily dominate the market by lowering their prices a couple to a few hundred dollars, but they don't. Its either a conspiracy or unnecessary pride. Its doesn't seem like good business practice for their PC division.
That brings me to an interesting point, / . is just "the ramblings of socially-inept, technology-literate news-mongers".
Ever went into Best Buy and looked at their prices? They are the tech store for the masses. People who buy their tech stuff from Best Buy et al will subscribe to expired AV software, they will purchase anything the computer tells them to purchase. As long as people refuse to take responsibility for maintaining their own machines or learning about them, stores like Best Buy will charge retail + 20% because of an uneducated consumer. Personally, I hope they remain uneducated. I will put a child through college cleaning up their trashed computer this year.
Windows assumes you are an idiot...Linux demands proof.
rakes in an amount of profit per machine that you could only dream of
This is precisely why Apple still sucks. They don't even try to compete. They could wipe the rest of the companies off the face of the planet, but they don't want to lower their prices to reasonable levels. You can buy a HP Envy with aluminum/magnesium chassis for $1000.00 that actually has overall better hardware in it over a $2000.00 Macbook Pro. If Apple would lower the price of the aforementioned Macbook Pro to say, 1300.00. They still would make more money, and people would choose it over the HP Envy. Why wont they do that? Seems like air-headed business practice to me and is one more reason I won't own a Apple unless someday I have money to piss away on a companies ego.
That brings me to an interesting point, / . is just "the ramblings of socially-inept, technology-literate news-mongers".
> People bitch about the crappy MS OS ...
The unfortunate side effect of "Apple just works, Windows gives me bluescreens", is mostly due to this reason as well. It isn't that Windows sucks, its that 90%+ of the processes running on a 2 year old PC are 3rd party drivers and useless "quicklaunch" helpers (iTuneshelper and acrobattray for examples.)
We may complain that this bloatware makes our experience worse, but it takes less than an hour of me "fixing" it, so who cares. A computer needs to be maintained just as much as a car. Maybe if we spent less time complaining, we could start educating the populous that doesn't read /.
Use Debian.
(www.debian.org)
Another approach that ... a friend of mine uses: take the junk mail and stuff it in the corner mailbox on his/her way to work.
If people like my friend all stuffed their unwanted junk mail in public mailboxes, the carriers would slow down and complain, their supervisors would get concerned, which would cause worries for the supervisors' bosses, and so on up the chain, until whoever runs USPS (I forget -- God? Ayn Rand?) finally stopped the madness.
-kgj
I am willing to pay $500 extra for a new pc delivered with nothing but the Windows operating system. This would be cheap compared to the effort required to recover from the initial disease - bloatware blight.
I believe computers with OSX 10.4 would ship with a trial version of Office installed. I remember this being a menace because the demo version could continue to interfere with file associations even after the full version of Office was installed.
On a more pedantic note doesn't Quicktime ship with some menu items disabled (unless you upgrade?) I am also fairly sure my family's Macbook came installed with a trial version of iWork on 10.5. Perhaps you were purchasing full versions of iWork with your machines?