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The Importance of Lunch
theodp writes "I've been on teams that eat together every day,' writes Joel-on-Software Spolsky, 'and it's awesome. I've been on teams that don't, and lunch every day is, at best, lonely.' Spolsky is firmly in the camp that believes where and with whom we eat lunch is a much bigger deal than most people care to admit. 'There's a lot of stuff that's accidental about Fog Creek and Stack Exchange,' he concludes, 'but lunch is not one of them. Ten years ago Michael and I set out with the rather ambitious goal of making a great place to work. Eating together is a critical part of what it means to be human and what it means to have a humane workplace, and that's been a part of our values from day one.'"
Personally... I'd rather spend that hour working and leave an hour earlier.
Generally I'm at work to make money and not to make friends. I know every company does the rah-rah, we're awesome, "team-building", let's all be friends so we work better together. But I'd rather just be professional, get my work done, and spend my free time how I see fit.
I once spoke to a CEO of a successful startup in Texas. He attributed a large part of their success to the fact that the team ate lunch together every day. They sold the company to a larger company for big bucks, success by some measure at least.
"I'd rather be a lightning rod than a seismometer." -Ken Kesey
I got crumbs on my keyboard...
I've known this for ages. This is why, at the beginning of each day, I make any employees who felt the need to brown-bag it toss their lunch in The Trough. Once in the trough it's blended in with a caffeinated protein slurry.
Now, we can't have the workers getting all uppity because I allow them to eat, so this trough is installed roughly level with the floor, so they have to bow at my feet while they nourish themselves.
It's a wonderful place for me to work.
Regards,
Mark Z.
I don't think team lunches should be mandatory. Sometimes you want to clear your head, go for a walk and have some time to yourself. You may also want to check out cute girls in the food court, but I digress. Anyway, just because Joel likes his lunches that way doesn't mean it's the best thing for everyone. Where I work, they provide lunch for those who want it. Some people eat lunch in the rec room, chat, maybe play a game of table tennis or pool. Others take the supplied lunch to their desk to eat. Some people prefer to go out and buy lunch, but even they're a mixed bunch: go alone, go in groups, eat out, bring take-away back to their desks. You've got to give your people some space to move.
Again with people forcing extrovert-ism on the world. Why can't people *in general* be accepting of introverts who like to, and gain their energy from, being alone? I find it is an excellent time to put my thoughts together and come up with new ideas while away from my desk.
For instance, the first phase is characterized by the question "How can we make payroll?", the second by the question "Why do we need VC?", and the third by the question "Where shall we have lunch?"
It should be the goal of every startup company to reach the third stage.
but there's no room at my desk.
Aaah, who am I kidding? There's plenty of room at my desk for all none of my team-mates.
Teamwork. We've heard of it.
Welcome to the Panopticon. Used to be a prison, now it's your home.
I've found that the time I take for lunch has been great for rejuvenating my reading habit. I picked up a kindle on the cheap, and it has been a boon to my reading time. I can take up the whole lunch hour sitting outside on the grass eating my lunch and turning pages, virtual or real. Yeah, group lunches are awesome, but sometimes it's nice to just kick back and let your imagination wander.
If you want to make a "great place to work" in the sense that those you work with are more than resources to exploit, build a cooperative, partnership or mutual.
If you want to throw bones to your more easily won over employees, safe in the knowledge that you can fire them whenever necessary, pontificate on the importance of eating lunch with them.
"I’ve been on teams that eat together every day, and it’s awesome."
"...but you’ll also see a distressing number of loners eating by themselves..."
" Maybe they’re reading a book or checking their email while they eat so they don’t look sad."
"Maybe they genuinely don’t like people and they’re happy to eat alone. Or maybe they’re just telling you that."
This is something I see a lot in workplaces: Extroverted people just not understanding the mind of introverted people. Honestly I'm surprised a person with experience in the tech field (I assume) is falling into this trap.
Not everyone enjoys being around and talking to other people all day long. Maybe it's because they're shy, maybe it's because they don't like their co-workers, maybe it's because they have some kind of disorder, or maybe it's just their natural personality. I gotta be honest, there's no way I'd last at that place, because if my boss/coworkers were on my case every day to come eat with them, I'd be miserable. It's fine if the group wants to go out/gather once in a while, but not every day. Most days I just want to go have an hour where I can be left to myself and not have to talk to anyone else. Wonder how many otherwise good employees he's run off with this policy?
Personally... I'd rather spend that hour working and leave an hour earlier.
Your state laws may not allow that option. Even if its your idea and you *really* want to do so your employer can get into a lot of trouble. In some states the presumption is that you are being coerced by the employer (or fellow employees) and no statement made by you will change that presumption. Don't get annoyed with your employer if they say you must take a meal break away from your desk.
So you exclude good coders and great team players just because they don't like your favorite sandwich place. Okay.
Democracy Now! - your daily, uncensored, corporate-free
Hello, myself and roughly 25% of the population are introverts. We can find group activities draining, and would prefer to pick our social activities with that in mind.
-jeff
Please learn the difference between a dissenting opinion and a troll before you moderate.
Is lunch with the team counted as on the clock? If not, the boss has no right to tell anybody with whom they should or should not eat.
That's AWESOME!
And if he had attributed the success to keeping a picture of a porcupine on his desk, would it be as relevant?
The key point is that he sold the company to a larger company.
He did not buy the larger company.
It all comes down to how you define "success".
Lunchtime doubly so. Therefore anyone you have lunch with is merely a figment of your imagination.
Blank until
Where I work, a bunch of us sit together for lunch, from my team and people who used to be on the team but went to work on other things.
Talking about work is banned. Lunch is a time to crack jokes, talk about hobbies, outside interest and to put the world to rights.
Taking a complete break from work for half to one hour is very good for concentration and problem-solving. It's amazing how frequently seemingly difficult problems become easily solvable after a proper lunch break.
Some people are fine with half an hour, but I need at least an hour and some strong coffee afterwards. For the last 20-30 minutes, I read the news and have a good laugh at the ranting on slashdot.
Those social bonds formed at lunch time are important. It's easier to go and speak to those people about work matters later and get their advice when you're friendly with them and you know how their minds work.
And it's just nice to have a few friends in the place.
Stick Men
I worked at KMART for a time when I was freshly graduated from school (BS Computer Science) and was unable to find any work.
3rd shift ate lunch together every night, but we were all still working at KMART.
Although this idea is more geared towards office/professional work just wanted to throw that experience out there.
agreed, I think if I had work with that on a daily basis I would seriously consider a lawsuit.
I'd consider the use of high explosives.
I write sci-fi for metalheads
Basically, the assumption is that they because you work at the same place, in similar jobs, you're going to have similar non-work interests.
Sorry, I don't.
So either the lunch meetings are extensions of weekly meetings where work topics are re-hashed or there is a lot of awkward silence.
Of course it is ALWAYS nice when you have a nice, homogenous group with the same political / religious / etc beliefs and feel free to discuss them at lunch. Everyone always agrees.
If it is mandatory to eat lunch with your teammates, then fine. But then it is not a required work break. Most places, unless you are salaried, by law you are required to take a break from work. i.e. it is your time and work cannot dictate what you do during this time. (As long as you come back on time and are still sober :) )
I've used my lunch hour as an opportunity to hit the gym 1-3 times a week. Nothing too intense. But I've been doing this for about a year now and it's amazing how much it has made a difference in my mood especially in the winter. An introvert myself, it also allows me to not have to talk to anyone for a while.
Lunch is a break, time to get away from the hustle and bustle of work. When at work, you get 100% of me during work hours, the rest is legally mine (at least in my mind :)).
I have lunch with a few co-workers twice a week, and regularly get guilty stares the other three days.
One, I'm paying off student loans and a home mortgage on a 15 year. Right now my sources of entertainment include whatever I can find at Goodwill and the used book store. I simply don't have the free cash to eat out 5 days a week, no matter how much it helps morale.
Two, after graduating I went back into super-disciplined mode, hit the gym, ate properly, and lost 40 pounds. I have no desire to go backwards just for the sake of camaraderie. I like you, but all our cafeteria serves is burgers, brats, and pizza, and I like not having a heart attack at 50 a lot more.
Three, no offense, I like you guys, but after 40 hours a week, I need a little break from you all. I like getting a sandwich, walking to the park, and just chilling the F out. That helps my productivity a lot more than any group lunch does.
I normally pack a lunch and scarf it down while I keep working at my desk. I'd much rather get done that much earlier in the day.
Having said that, I do often take lunches with coworkers, but only when it's convenient, and I actually like them.
My team has an interesting alternative to lunch, which is far more constructive in my mind. Around 2pm, any of us in the group can call for a "yo" break if we need it. Then we all go stand around and shoot the breeze for 15-30 minutes outside the building. This allows us to socialize, blow off some steam, and get our minds focused again. It is well worth the company time because by around 2pm, you are already need a break to clear the cobwebs.
Discussions like this explain a lot about what motivates employees in various organizations. And the cultures of these organizations.
Different people are motivated by different things. Study Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Some people seek friends. Some seek accomplishment, the esteem of others or themselves, or creativity and problem solving for its own sake. I think groups who place too much emphasis on socialization attract people somewhat lower on this motivational scale. And in many cases, this is a conscious management strategy. Keep people down on the ladder, so to speak, and they are easier to manage.* Excluding people from social groups, particularly if they are needy in this area is an effective tool.
* Due to some economic circumstances, I found myself able to retire very comfortably at the age of 28. Nevertheless, I continued to work. Not for the money, but just for the sake of accomplishing something. Unfortunately, this put me at odds with quite a few managers who sought to control their employees with the paycheck. It never worked on me and, as a result, I never lasted very long working for them. Even if my job performance was judged exemplary.
Have gnu, will travel.
So the ones that don't require any sort of feel-good small talk, social validation or an ego boost are the pathetic/sad ones? Ooook then...
No. That means that your primary channel of communication if broken.
So you're attempting to compensate by using a secondary or tertiary communication channel to exchange work-related information.
Or just save everyone's time and bring donuts to the daily / weekly meetings and PRETEND that you're at lunch. It's easier. It's already scheduled. And you still get your personal alone time at lunch.
I'd consider the use of high explosives.
I've found the explosives that aren't doing drugs are more reliable.
Joel-on-Software Spolsky promotes himself as an authority on software development, but he only runs a tiny company that makes applications for a relatively simple problem. It's still a tiny company, after over a decade of operation. I'd rather hear from the people who managed the software for Voyager. Or the vehicle stabilization system for a modern car. Or the radio inside the iPhone. (I know the guy who headed that team; he waited until the iPhone shipped, and then quit Apple in disgust with having to work for Steve Jobs.) Or the file system that keeps Google working even when machines fail.
I work in a tough industry. My day starts off with a fire alarm at 8am and doesn't stop until I stop. I thrive in this world because I love what I do. I don't mind the non-stop work or pressure and I am definitely in the extrovert camp.
However, I need break from time to time and lunch is it for me. It's a time that I can let my mind wander and recharge my batteries for the afternoon's activities. Not that I don't go to lunch with co-workers. I do. I just can't imagine doing it every single day and I really can't imagine doing more work over lunch.
For me, it is no more complicated than "leave me alone for a few minutes and if you do, we will surely get more done later". I just need a break.
I learned the value of lunch years ago, but not simply for solidifying your own team. Lunch was the king of the informal networks where I worked, and this is likely true in many larger companies.
In a company that has its own dining area or cafeteria, take lunch there, and try to sit with friends or associates from other groups. Before inter-group cooperation became the rallying cry of the day, I was keeping up to speed on developments in many departments just by asking questions over lunch.
I had other coworkers who didn't want any business talk during their lunches. I'd lunch with them sometimes--to maintain the relationships--but tried to stay with my informal network. I can't count the number of times having that "insider knowledge" of other departments had a direct influence on our group's decisions (and my own manager's assessment of my worth on the team). IMnshO, lunch is the king of informal networks.
I use irony whenever I can, but my shirts are still wrinkled...
I think you missed the point.
The point was that the CEO can (and often does) attribute his "success" (success being defined by him) to whatever he WANTS to based upon his pre-existing bias.
And if he fails, that doesn't mean that he was wrong. It just means that something else cancelled out his great idea. At least in his mind.
Success in business usually comes down to
being in the right place
at the right time
with the right product
and the right personal connections.
Back in the "dot com boom" it was very easy to start a company, get name recognition and then sell out to a larger company for a wad of cash. Even if your business model was impossible to support. Even if you didn't have a product to sell.
And that is why there are so many cycles of management fads and books.
Fog Creek is a small company. I run a website at a big museum. My group used to all eat together, and it was really valuable. Sometimes we'd have other people join us, etc. But my boss was concerned--with good reason--about how exclusive we looked, and asked us all to make sure we also ate regularly with lots of other people. That helped too, but the group's camaraderie definitely suffered. Once we quit having a regular lunch, we couldn't get it back part-time.
I think the general idea that teams of people who get along work better is obviously sound, but it's not caused by sitting together on a bench with a box of Cheez-its. People who like each other's company are more likely to want to eat together, IF that's something they'd normally do anyway.
For example, I am on the border of introversion and extroversion, according to most personality inventories. I enjoy being with people, but I also need time alone. I have never, ever, ever enjoyed eating with other people. Don't know why, it's just a weird thing of mine. I find it awkward and tense, unless I'm with very close friends or family. Social drinking, on the other hand, is something I enjoy a great deal, especially with strangers or acquaintances, since I can get to know people in a relaxed environment.
In work environments, I talk to all of my coworkers constantly. Not to the point of distraction or annoyance, and not always about non-work topics, but if there's down time I'm not going to wait until lunch to make small talk. In my experience, it's always been a plus to develop strong social ties with coworkers, even if it never leaves the workplace, and those ties form most easily when they're allowed to do so organically, not through some sort of enforced "social hour". As a matter of fact, the thing I enjoy most about a lunch break is the time spent alone, reading news and taking walks. I would be stressed out if I was forced to spend that time sitting around a table watching coworkers eat awkwardly.
This unbiased moderation brought to you by the Porcine Aviation Group!
My company's office is 1 block from my church, which holds a mass at 12:10. So I spend half of the hour in service, then grab a hot dog afterward. For me it's a great way to relax and reset for the rest of the day. Say what you will about religion - it's one way to forget about code for 40 minutes.
I've worked with less-than-great teams, and we've tended not to socialize.
And, I've worked at places that forced us to socialize even though we didn't want to. Those were the worst places, and they had the worst results.
Making people eat lunch together doesn't make good teams.
I find that the after work drink outings with my coworkers are *much* better at building camaraderie. I don't consider myself to be sad and lonely, but I prefer to take my lunches alone. However, many of us get together for a weekly happy hour, including a few coworkers that don't drink alcohol.
I find that lunch outings tend to be an extension of the office - everyone is focused on work. If I wanted a lunchtime meeting, I would have scheduled one -- I prefer to take a mid-day break from work.
You know what, a bunch of you at work like to use the job and their co-workers as their social group, terrific, knock yourselves out. But it's not for everyone and the company is missing out on important talent if this is a condition of continued employment. How about just leaving people alone. They may actually have lunch together now and again spontaneously.
I'm looking forward to the software dev job situation swinging back the other way to where these touchy-feely companies are back on the short end of the bargaining stick. You clowns have too much power and you seem bored. Not a good combo. It's a job. We go there to solve problems, get paid and work.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm off to have lunch with my significant other. My current job supports me on this. Ciao.
Or how well your fantasy baseball team is doing.
Or whether or not I should join you in Mafia Wars on Facebook.
Or any of a million other, uninteresting things.
I am just as focused in my hobbies but I do NOT think that you'd find them interesting. So I do not inflict them on you.
I don't usually eat lunch when I'm at work. I occasionally get a bag of cookies and a cola around noon. Not that I could. I'm just not hungry. The thought of actually driving somewhere during lunch hour is terrifying. "At least I'm not deliberately aiming for you!" is the attitude of most drivers around here. And $4.00/gallon gas doesn't help.
Because under IDEAL conditions your co-workers would have been selected for their capability to perform the job. Not because they had the same religious / political / etc opinions as you.
IF someone else who you work with has the same opinions as you then it is great if you can become friends.
But to put the focus on that means that the focus is not on getting the work done so you can get out an live your non-work life. Which is a problem.
Yep. And if Bill and Tom had the same skill levels and such, then that would one thing.
But in my experience (your experience may differ) it is the more social person who lacks the technical skills. Simply based upon personality type. The stereotype of the nerd who spends his waking hours hacking on his computer instead of attending parties is a stereotype for a reason.
I see a lot of posts from people who can't stand the idea of eating lunch with their co-workers. For me, I guess that's another sign that I've got it pretty good.. I like all of my co-workers and I love getting that one hour a day to socialize and BS with the people I enjoy working with.
I went to eat some animal crackers and the box said, "Do not eat if seal is broken." I opened the box and sure enough..
I have come across more people and made friends with them during my smoke breaks rather then during my lunch breaks
If you're not confused, you're not paying attention
Just take Google as an example.
And then look at how the various groups inside Google handle this.
Does Sales/Marketing have a different structure / practice than IT?
What about HR?
Sub-groups?
I'm a college professor, having worked in half a dozen different physics departments, and by far my favorite department to work in was the one where people ate lunch together. As a college lecturer it's really easy to feel isolated: teaching one's own classes doesn't require a lot of interaction with other faculty, people's schedules are all different, and teaching keeps one pretty busy. Having the chance to talk to other faculty in a relaxed environment, on a regular basis, is a luxury I've really missed. (Not only did they have lunch together, but a group often headed over for coffee around 3 as well.)
But I can't speak for other industries. Certainly a mandatory lunchtime together would be too intrusive, and if you spend the whole day working together then you need some time off. But lunch can be a great opportunity to make casual connections with people you wouldn't otherwise talk to, and it seems to me that a company/department/whatever would be smart to encourage a tradition of shared lunches.
Right after the only other art form where you are allowed to put something inside your audience.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
You should do be able to do whatever the heck you like.
I do like a place with a canteen though - helps you to meet people outside your team. Those who want privacy don't use it and those who do use it tend to be happy enough to talk. It gets my mind off my specific work and let me find out about things I'd never hear of otherwise.
This is all just my personal opinion.
I don't agree.
They have an established secondary communication channel so they'll have an easier time dealing with communication-based objectives.
But that doesn't mean that they'll be any better with other objectives. Quite the opposite in my experience.
It's an issue of "Group Think".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupthink
Well, lunch is my workout hour. If you want to talk to me during that time then will you have to go to the gym or put on some shoes and run with me (depending on the day of course). I feel a whole lot better after an hour workout than after an hour of uncomfortable managerial small talk.
Why should I give up the only quiet moment I get all day just because my co-workers are insecure and can't stop yapping for two seconds? Not to mention giving up the flexibility to eat when and where I want. I get along with everyone I work with, but I didn't sign up to be automatic friends just because I need a paycheck.
It is great in the beginning, but after a while you run out of things to talk about.
(Shrill) "Only Terrorists Want Peace and Quiet!" (/Shrill)
My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
making anything mandatory is a deal breaker. It is a good indicator of an overbearing boss.
Even acupuncturists are better. And there's no such thing as a subluxation.
And having to eat lunch when you're trying to lose a couple of pounds because summer is coming is just wrong!
while I ate lunch with them...I stopped. That was about the time the Iraq war started. IT in Wisconsin went right with the rest of folks and everyday it became a diatribe against "liberals", "taxes" and "guns"...they did it just to drive me away from eating lunch with them. It worked. I have eaten at my desk ever since. I wanted to crack jokes and talk about technology and goofy junk....they wanted to tell me what was wrong with people like me and how we were ruining the country. nice.
Sometimes there's only one IT guy working at the site. To force him to eat lunch with management, or even administrative staff, with whom he has nothing in common, is cruel.
Okay, that sounds elitist the way it came out. It's meant to be the opposite. My experience was that the non-IT folks looked down on ME, and when I was forced to eat lunch with them, I could see them talking down to me, struggling for conversation topics. We were all relieved when I started going out to lunch by myself.
As for calculators, that's rather primitive... One of my ex-colleagues (a guy if that's important to you) created a fancy spreadsheet that helped with all the calculations (tax, surcharge etc) ... If Slashdotters want to split bills fairly they should do it a proper nerdy style :).
I have an app for that, well that and a bit more. :-), Perpenso Calc for iPhone RPN, 5 modes: Scientific Stats Business Hex Bill.
Want to quickly determine a tip? Simply enter your sub total as an item and a tip will be calculated using your default tip rate. If you would like to change the tip you may enter a tip percentage or if you prefer you may specify the tip amount.
Want to calculate the actual portion of a bill that you are responsible for? You can specify the percentage of an individual item that you are responsible, much better than simply splitting the total. For example if you shared an appetizer with three friends, had an entree and two drinks simply enter the full price of the appetizer and your percentage of 25, the price of your entree and then the price of your drink and a quantity of 2.
Screen shots at the above link illustrate the above.
Also you can do the above in a traditional calculator mode or in a more modern GUI based worksheet format.
But it doesn't scale.
Ideas and problems get tossed around that don't necessarily get aired or aired to the same people in formal meetings. In my last company, some of the most important ideas came out of the lunchtime banter. Unfortunately, as the company grew, it became more compartmentalized. People's schedules became more constrained by other people in their respective groups. It was harder to get a lunch crew together. People in the same group would often lunch together but without the exchange of ideas across groups it wasn't as useful.
Yep. So get the work done at work and then get back to your life. Don't waste time at work trying to use it as a substitute for your life.
I go out a lot with my friends (who I do not work with). That wasn't the point.
The point was about people trying to use work-time to socialize instead of focusing on work-related items. Such as doing the work.
I'd rather not listen to another diatribe on how Obama's newly released birth certificate is a CIA fake that he ordered.
Your mileage will vary.
And the birther guy probably would be perfectly happy with another birther to have coffee with.
Me? I'm not going to discuss it with you and I'll just keep doing my work and improving my tech skills.
I know the guy who headed that team; he waited until the iPhone shipped, and then quit Apple in disgust with having to work for Steve Jobs.
Which nicely illustrates that work environments where "heroic" tasks are performed are usually not the best environment for long term employee health or happiness. I don't agree with Joel on this issue (or others). However, I don't think that running a small profitable business that puts out good products makes him any less qualified to talk on this issue than the people you mentioned. In fact you could argue that those people tend to have a better idea of what makes a productive work environment than most.
The tone of TFA is abhorrent. "Ooh, he must be so unhappy because he has something worthwhile to do instead of talking to me. I know I'd shrivel up and die if I couldn't get an ego boost from my comrades."
One thing that should tip you off about the TFA is the mention of long cafeteria-style tables. He doesn't want a happy family of people who work well together. He just wants to LOOK like a happy family of people who work well together.
He specifically mentions the long table as the alternative to round tables. At a long table, you can get scores of people at the same table, but each can really only interact with the closest 5 people.
At a round table, you may only get 10 people to a table, but everyone at the table can see and interact with everyone else at the table.
This may be useful for sales, marketting, or management. As for IT, it's just annoying. I eat at my computer. Occasionally I'll go pick something up with a fellow IT worker, and discuss some issue, but even then, I don't pow-wow with anyone while I eat my burger. People call me all day long, bitching and wanting me to fix something. I don't answer the phone, and unless it's an emergency, I won't get up until I'm done. And it's not like I stopped working. I'm still thinking about what I'm working on, coming up with ideas, etc.
But for the love of man, just leave me the hell alone for 15 minutes!
I8-D
Where do you people work that you can actually TALK to someone? These days people have their faces buried in their smartphones 24/7 sending LOLS and Youtubes to each other. I mean, this goes beyond even work. It goes to bars, camping etc. No one actually talks to each other anymore.
Funny. I had the same experience with liberal friends. ("Republicans are all close minded militarists. Oh... I don't mean you, Hartree." That's an exact quote. I go by my fan name in some circles.)
But I gritted my teeth and kept on going.
Guess I have a strong stomach. And realized a lot of people spout BS when it comes to politics. If you get too sensitive to it, you wall yourself off.
Sounds great... If some bozos tried this sort of thing on me repeatedly, compulsory lunchtime or not (and compulsory would have me bill for the time each day or quit), I'd have a quiet word with HR about "bullying in the workplace" etc.
My client/employer can *reasonably* direct me what to do *in the time that they are paying for* and unless that lunchtime is part of my paid hours it's none of their damn business (can you say "constructive dismissal"?). Being subject to repeated harassment directly or indirectly at he hands of management is not reasonable.
And that's before we even consider the the topic of the actual characters of my co-workers. Over the years there have been a handful who I'm not that happy to share a building with during work hours...
Rgds
Damon
http://m.earth.org.uk/
True introverts can't understand true extroverts and vice versa.
An introvert gains energy during solo moments and looses it during social gatherings. An extrovert is drained of energy alone and gains it during social events.
So, a company meeting will leave the introvert drained and the extrovert charged up. Even if the meeting goes well, what happens AFTERwards is the real issue. The extrovert will be rearing to go and act on all the things discussed. The introvert wants to take a nap.
It doesn't even matter much when you do it. In the evening the introvert will be exhausted from the day of social interaction and be REALLY exhausted afterwards, while the extrovert has no where to spent all his pent up energy. Do it early and your introvert will be drained during the working day.
So, get rid of introverts? Pity they are often more stable, less easy to corrupt and in any case, most developers are introverts.
Most managers are extroverts. See the problem?
It is even worse for developers who like to get into the zone. No good with a manager who needs constant social interaction.
Just check, how many coders do you know with a cat vs managers with a dog?
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
When I started working in IT I was a graphic designer. I have drawn stuff as long as I can remember and I completed my assignments with ease, the design just came to me and I implemented it with a joy in my heart. I was carefree, I had a witty opinion about everything and let it be heard. I enjoyed daily lunches with other people. But deep inside me there was an urge to know more. So I learned to code. Now I'm a developer. I build websites/apps daily and though the work is rewarding it consumes me totally. I eat lunch alone just to let my brain cool a bit, enjoying a few moments outside the byte realm. Rarely do I join other people for lunch, only if I have conquered a tough problem and feel selfconfident enough to express my views of the world, which usually is required while having lunch with others. I could of course fake it but that would be ridiculous, longing for old days wont cut it, instead I keep to myself, do my work properly and eventually I'll be experienced enough to be a happy carefree developer, maybe finally sending that startup funding application =)
Years ago business people were surveyed about their experience traveling from one place to the next. When the results came back...most said that drinking and sleeping alone was not a problem. Eating alone - was a problem for most "experienced" business people...and they also said they never wanted to discuss "business" over lunch or dinner. The survey also found that most newer sales people or young business folks always tried to conduct business over lunch and "get a deal" as well as the write off for lunch/dinner. Experienced business people would rather conduct business away from lunch or dinner. The experienced people who never liked eating alone - rather converse about family and other social or sporting activities in order to establish a better business and working relationship during the 9-12 and 1-5 hours. Eating alone does not help anyone feel like they are part of a community...and business talk should be kept out of the conversation! ...Compliments are like perfume or cologne - Enjoy - don't swallow !
I think you hit on the core problem in this discussion.
Introverts are not extroverts.
Extroverts are not introverts.
And so forth.
Because there is no objective "wrong" or "right" in this discussion, it tends towards people restating their personality as the rationalization for their preferred behavior. Circular logic at its best.
People like what they like because that is what they like.
And a boss that provides incentives for people to do what they already like to do will be perceived as a good boss. But that same boss with the same practice will be viewed as an idiot by someone who does NOT already like that.
Is having lunch together part of what makes a group a good team?
Or does a good team naturally spend time eating lunch together?
Personally, I don't think lunch matters in these circumstances. A clique can have lunch together. A team can have lunch together. People who are not a clique nor a team can have lunch together.
lunch is when I read Slashdot!
Comment removed based on user account deletion
In today's job market you should be more aware than ever that even in technical positions, it's often who you know, not what you know that gets you the job, that lets you keep the job, that keeps you over the cut-off line when there's layoffs, that has you in line for raises, that has you spearheading the neat new technologies, that has non-technical folks deferring to you.
I know the idea of a code ninja who silently fixes problems with nary a word might seem romantic. I get it when people say they need personal time for introspection and analysis. There are many people out there who simply work better by themselves.
Just keep in mind that your skills need to be exponentially better than those of your peers if you're going to stand out by product/efficiency/quality alone. The guy who keeps asking you for help and self-promotes his achievements is going to end up with a raise while your name is going to pop up at the budget meetings as a potential cut after several years of 'meets expectations' evaluations.
So, do yourself a favor, find some quiet time and think about it.
Since no one has claimed such, I think you've just demonstrated the validity of your position.
Did you read the article?
This isn't about having occasional lunches with people in other departments.
This is about having daily lunches with the people in the same department as yourself.
Another sane advice from the guy who claimed that writing a new web-browser was the worst decision the Mozilla Foundation could make.
MOD THE CHILD UP!
That's wonderful. And if the discussion was about social skills, that would be an important contribution.
But this is about extroverts and introverts and group lunches.
Being an introvert does not mean you have no (or limited) social skills.
The person who would rather spend his lunch hour alone, reading tech manuals will, probably, be more technically skilled than the person who spends his lunch hour chatting about fantasy baseball with other people.
I'll disagree. Each communication channel has its own problems. Attempting to make a social channel into an official channel makes it subject to cliques and inter-personal issues.
Why not work on fixing the primary communication channel?
Why?
What is the difference between them for you?
Spolsky
Oh.
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
If the company pays for lunch, why not? If not, we should all be free to bring something from home, eat whatever we want, or even skip lunch and do something else (sleep, exercise, etc.).
My team works in a basement lab full of equipment. We used to go up to the cafeteria for lunch every day, but a year or so ago they downscaled considerably, and the most social of my coworkers started bringing his lunch and eating at his desk. We lost critical mass for eating upstairs, and a couple others of us now usually get lunch and bring it back to the lab. I'm now telecommuting more often, or working from home in the mornings and maybe showing up after lunch.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
In that case, I think you skipped the previous portion of my post and read an awful lot into that one sentence.
Being social does not mean you have social skills.
The same as owning a car and driving it does not make you a good driver.
Perhaps. Although I would not equate "social" to "understanding". If anything, being slightly less intelligent makes it easier to socialize.
Again, you seem to be confusing "social" with "intelligent". So yes, you did demonstrate the validity of your view point again.
Okay. It's obvious that you don't understand what the term "social" means. You keep using it incorrectly.
I love how all these folks who are so eager to work through lunch to get go out earlier at the end of the day still have time to cruise to slashdot during work hours (for most of the Western Hemisphere).
Just saying.
The folks ripping the "Lunching" article are welcome to dislike the idea. But to disparage its meaning
is wrong. The people oriented/task oriented dichotomy is a canard. "I want to be at work as little
as possible" is as well.
Everyone eats. With a twenty-four hour daily cycle it is plain simple to incorporate eating at a set
time in the middle of the day..ie. lunch. Having a bunch of homo sapien programus on that same
comfortable easily adapted eating cycle has benefits for the company. Having all the silverback
"everyone else is a moron" variants sharing the fact that the inferior other is also on the same
eating cycle, and also does in fact eat, has benefits to the company.
Any misanthrope, or social phobe, of introvert, or engineer can make compelling arguments
against the humanity and value of others, but this article is suggesting, as written by the
head of a company, that the company benefits from the practice. Those who are antagonized
cannot prevent or deny that they too "eat" and also that their feeding tubes are very easily
adaptable to the idea of eating around noon everyday. Beyond their impulse or preference
the practice benefits the company.
Lastly, a company considering this early on can make it easily happen and get the benefits.
Company's that don't plan, or incorporate the idea, don't get the benefits and anger folks
by clumsily trying to make it happen ad hoc and after the fact of the company's culture..
Lunchtime is when I run errands and generally take any excuse to get the heck out of the office.
I don't know about y'all but, for me, "the office" is a fabric-covered box in a big, windowless room. Want your creativity to improve? Get the heck out of the flourescent-lit geek fattening pen and get some natural sunlight. Go for a walk. Get some fresh air. Anything to get out of that soul-killing cubicle farm. Even if it's only for a while. You'll find your afternoon is much more productive and you'll do much better at retaining your sanity.
At lunch, my co-workers are busy talking about who tweeted what or what happened on "Big Bang Theory." Or who's reached what level on WoW (not so much of that, lately). I consider Twitter to be a pointless waste of time. I don't watch the same shows they do. I'm not a gamer.
I'm also a decade or more older than the rest of them. Some of them were still in diapers when I finished high school. One was born about the time I became old enough to drink. He has a B.S. CompSci, like I do. I think you can do the math.
In short, we have very little in common, other than the fact that we draw our paychecks from the same employer.
So, why would I want to eat lunch with them? I used to do that, trying to build a rapport with at least some of them. After a year of that, I finally decided that was a pointless waste of time and gave up.
The company even has a quarterly lunch where the company caters the food. I'm on a carb-restricted diet, and the caterers doesn't seem to comprehend that such a thing exists. Not even the green beans are safe (their special recipe involves adding a bunch of brown sugar; more people eat them, that way). Mashed potatoes, baked potates, various kinds of bread, cookies, you name it. They look at you funny if you just want protein and veggies and aren't oinking out on the carbs. I quit showing up for those events. There are only so many times I can go back for more salad.
Joel is trying to promote a workplace where you would actually want to be. For the vast majority of us in IT, that's too much to ask. Let me earn my paycheck in peace, then don't be surprised when I leave, at the end of the day, and go do something completely unrelated to the job, the office or my co-workers.
Clearly, I'm not Joel's target demographic.
... by the Dew of Mountains the thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning
...one thing comes to mind: eat together. Everyday. Every meal. If you aren't doing that basic action, then there's not way you can have 'family values', the rest is just bullshit (living under one roof with the fridge as the lone meeting point ?)
Non-Linux Penguins ?
I think the gist of the blurb is right, mandating lunch is not the way to do it. I remember a dot.com manager I worked for all but forcing us to socialize together. It felt Orwellian and inspired resentment, at least with me. Ironic thing is I usually make friends with a number of people at my jobs and like to do that sort of thing anyway. I'm guessing other IT would act the same way. The way to go in this situation is to have a better vetting process so you pick out people who are highly agreeable and likely to become friends with others.
Or without going through the motions of being friends.
You should be able to interact with co-workers on a professional basis. That being, you handle your part of the job and they handle their part of the job.
Can your co-workers depend upon you to perform your job to a standard? Can you depend upon them to perform their job to a standard?
Is there a defined communication channel to relay information pertaining to the above?
In my experience, the people who focus primarily on whether they're "friends" with everyone are the ones with the lowest tech skills. They're trying to compensate by forming personal connections.
I don't care about your raid over the weekend.
I want to know if you have finished the interface yet.
I can see this author's point.
I had a job where I was fairly good "work friends" with a number of the other programmers. We would each visit each other's office when we needed a break and we would shoot the shit with each other often.
However, they never invited me out have lunch with them either in the office or out. One day I asked them about it. They told me they didn't because they knew I was a vegan. They thought I might be offended by their food, criticize their food or that it might be a pain in the ass to find a restaurant we all could eat.
I told them I could see where they were coming from, having met some rude vegans myself and that I wasn't about those things.
A few times we did end up having meals together. To be honest and fair it bored the hell out of me. Most of these guys were married with kids. Talking about mortgages, lawns and what their babies did bored the hell out of me.
For the most part, after that conversation, things went on as before. They would get together at lunch without talking to me about it.
It did contribute, partially, to a partial "fuck you" attitude I eventually took on about the job.....though there were many things that contributed to that.
Joel is trying to promote a workplace that fits Joel's notion of what a nice place to work would be for other people who have preferences similar to Joel's preferences.
That's the problem I have with this. A place that I would WANT to spend more time at .. with co-workers I found to be interesting ... would be a very strange place to work at (and probably illegal).
Let me have my private life.
I'll trade my professional time for money.
Allow me to keep the two separate.
I eat 6 much smaller, low carb, high protein/fat meals during my awake hours, no further apart than 3 hours. This keeps my blood sugar and insulin levels fairly steady, and has helped me lose weight and get completely off the Type 2 Diabetes medications (along with daily aerobic walking and moderate weight lifting). I plan to eat this way the rest of my life, since it has my blood chemistry, cholesterol, triglycerides, A1C/Glucose, blood pressure, weight and so on in a far more healthy range. How does Joel fit that in with his "loner" theory? If I eat breakfast after my morning walk at 7:30, then "second breakfast" at 10:30, lunch at 13:30, supper at 16:30 (typically my lightest meal of the day), dinner at 19:30, and a small snack at 22:30, I guess I just don' fit into his world.
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Thanks for the heads-up, fear daddy!
Bukowski said it. I believe it. That settles it.
If your employees aren't extroverts, chances are they won't change. Maybe the wrong guy was chosen for the job, maybe you just have to learn to work with people you don't identify with.
It is in the best interest of your employees to have a good relationship with everyone, but forced socialization is shallow, to say it kindly.
If somebody doesn't fit into a work environment, that's a good indication that he/she should really change jobs.
I like my co-workers and we get along fine on the job, and the atmosphere is light enough already. Why do I need lunch to do that? I'd rather have more free time after work. Better yet, make lunch optional so you don't have the pressure either way.
Twinstiq, game news
"Here's this interesting thing I'm working on".
That came up a lot at lunch from a lot of different people in a lot of different fields when I was working in the scientific and engineering section of a government owned electricity generation and distribution authority. I'm no chemist. At the time I knew very little about non-destructive testing. I can't do difficult welds, or even do easy ones well for that matter. The list goes on about the useful information I heard at lunch and even the problems solved over lunch due to having people with so many different areas of knowledge involved. Even going from there to a software startup there were people ranging from medical specialists to former technicians on jet fighters in addition to the usual collection of engineers from various branches that migrated to software when other engineering jobs dried up. Then it was more "here is that interesting thing I worked on" but it still wasn't just sport.
I think the point is that the article is about "talking shop" and working together instead of being social (once you pierce through the bullshit).
Lunch breaks are fine with friends if you work with them. They are fine for socializing if you have anything in common. If you have nothing in common with those with whom you work and your friends work elsewhere, then lunch can be a nice quiet time. It all depends on the person, their mood, and the people around them. Having to eat with a bunch of people you have nothing in common with, and no common interests is far more stressful than some nice quiet time. Meetings and lunch...I'd do one or the other. I'd go early to eat and then attend the meeting, or attend the meeting and then eat. Work sessions at lunch are not good for the digestion.
I have seen this in my experience too.
Am I the only one who is so bored with talking and eating at the same time? To me, food is something sacred, it is a part of me. What I eat, becomes me. And during that process, I like to focus on eating, not talking with co-workers. Talking with co-workers takes the focus away from the process of eating and digestion, making me not notice what I am putting in my system and how my system is reacting to this food.
How many times have you overeaten while talking at the same time ? It is easy not to notice what is happening while eating if trying to talk at the same time and focus on external things. If we focus on the stuff we talk, that focus is directly out of the eating process. This is why I don't like business lunchs, you forget the importance of food and it just becomes something you munch down usually.
I think we should take it slower, enjoy food, look at the food we are eating, think about how it is effecting us. This way we can process it much more effectively, letting our bodies focus on one task at a time.
GeoKone.NET
My experience is that the people who eat lunch together also ending up doing a lot of business. When the supervisor is part of the "lunch bunch", lots of information gets passed, input given, decisions made. I've seen/heard of places where things like who gets to go to conferences is decided at lunch and guess who ends up getting picked? That's right. One of the "lunch bunch". Lunch turns into mandatory fun in a lot of places.
I am literally the only person in my company that keeps kosher. There is almost nothing near my office I can eat. Needless to say this makes lunch with coworkers rather difficult.
Talking from a purely technical point of view.
The best coders I've known, people who actually solve problems by seeing the whole picture and making solutions work from end to end are all extroverts.
It's also common for people who are extroverts to still incorrectly see themselves as introverts
Many of the introvert coders I've known, on the whole, are merely mediocre, supremely exceling in some tasks, but severely lacking in others.
Being extrovert enables you to aggressively push your ideas on a group, since in most cases decisions are taken casually, and are therefore probably bad decisions, and since the cost of change is high, it helps with technical people who can speak for themselves.
Also, specialisation hasn't conclusively been proven to be better than a more general skillset, the brain stagnates when it isn't learning enough, so being extrovert helps you to keep learning new things, simultaneously making you better at general and specialised work.