Windows 8 To Fight Piracy With the Cloud

MrSeb writes "With the latest Windows 8 build (8064) that has been delivered to Intel, it's clear that the company is taking strides to make sure that its upcoming OS isn't quite so easy to pirate. For starters, the generic volume license keys that were so easily exploited during the early days of Windows 7 leaks will no longer be an option for pirates. Product keys also won't be shipped in the prodkey.txt file included in the build packages. Instead, installers will need to retrieve a unique key from a Microsoft web page. There's also a good possibility that the recently-surfaced fast booting patent could come into play as well. If Microsoft does indeed have designs on using a remote server to push OS code to systems at boot time, that code would be a very clever place to embed activation-related programming. Even if a crack was discovered, it would be neatly undone during a subsequent start-up sequence — similar to the way Microsoft's now-idle Windows Steady State could turn back the clock on an entire Windows installation after rebooting." Microsoft has also indirectly confirmed in a recent blog post that Windows 8 will make use of an app store.

Comments

well

[Anonymous Coward]

This assumes that most end users haven't already moved on to iPods, Android tablets, and set top boxes with Youtube/Netflix streaming and web browsers built in by the time Windows 8 is released.

Re:well

[Skarecrow77]

You thought keyboard turners were hellish in world of warcraft, wait until you have to deal with the touchscreen interface players!

Somehow, I doubt that the PC-as-we-know-it is going to die in the year or so before Windows 8 comes out.

Re:well

[Z00L00K]

You did forget the Linux desktops.

It will effectively be so complicated to run and install Windows that the IT support costs for many companies will be lower with about any solution - even sticking to XP as long as there's hardware that can run it.

Re:well

[Luckyo]

Is there someone insane enough to challenge this notion? I don't think even the most hardcore linux/apple fans ever went that far.

Re:well

[Risen888]

That's a pretty safe assumption.

Re:well

[flyneye]

So, Macrosofts edge will be flash?
Thank Gott in Himmel for OSs other than Mac and Windows. I dont want to hear either name in 10 years. From all indications both companies are facilitating my wishes.

Widows?

[CowardWithAName]

...similar to the way Microsoft's now-idle Windows Steady State could turn back the clock an entire Widows installation after rebooting."

What does the owner's husband being deceased have to do with anything?

Re:Widows?

[PPH]

He died waiting for a license key.

Re:Widows?

[macraig]

I've installed a widow before. She was a better deal than a Russian mailorder bride. And she came with a free lifetime supply of patches and bubblegum.

Re:Widows?

[hosecoat]

"Microsoft's now-idle Windows Steady State could turn back the clock an entire Windows[sic] installation after rebooting."

I've already had Windows inadvertently wipe an install after reboot.

Re:Widows?

[jamiesan]

Sure it wasn't some sort of virus?

Re:Widows?

[NJRoadfan]

Profile corruption, gotta love it. Even better is Microsoft doesn't really have all that much documentation on how to fix the problem when that profile happens to be the Administrator's account.

Re:Widows?

[UltraZelda64]

It could've been [R]AID5, caused by the WIV (Windows immunodeficiency virus).

Not that Windows needs to be any more vulnerable to parasites... it is generally up and ready for infection right after a fresh installation. I guess such a young, just-installed copy has a weak immune system...

Re:Widows?

[rhalstead]

Every large corporation that I know of including hospitals are still using XP or an incarnation of XP. I use Win 7 and like it, particularly after having tried Vista and went back to XP. However...Although there are some specific pluses for the cloud and many things work well in the cloud, but I think we will eventually find the cloud to be one of the biggest mistakes we've ever made in computing. It basically opens up your data to any agency that want's to look at it and without you ever knowing. A hack at the wrong place can take down large numbers of users and it puts critical data in more centralized locations making it much more attractive to hackers. I worked in FDA Validated systems that required you have all your data, software, and hardware within your immediate control which would have eliminated the use of the cloud. Even network hardware had to be documented and serial numbers recorded. Any time any piece of hardware was changed it had to be revalidated. Can you imagine being able to track everything in the cloud, or those providing the services would be willing to go through the validation process.

Great, an OS that requires you to be online.

[danomac]

I don't use Windows much anyhow (other than games) so I guess I'll just be moving to consoles.

Re:Great, an OS that requires you to be online.

[NoNonAlphaCharsHere]

Yeah. netboot from microsoft.com - what could possibly go wrong?

Re:Great, an OS that requires you to be online.

[Anonymous Coward]

There is NO chance that windows 8 will be an always on operating system. Stop being an idiot.

Re:Great, an OS that requires you to be online.

[geekmux]

Yeah. netboot from microsoft.com - what could possibly go wrong?

Yeah, no kidding. With a move like that, Microsoft will instantly direct all black hat focus and activity to their netboot service. Talk about painting an even bigger target on your back.

I mean, can you imagine GOATSE'ing an entire country on bootup? What devious soul could resist that?

Re:Great, an OS that requires you to be online.

[Anonymous Coward]

yea wanna screw up a nations computing ability just fuck with it's inetrnet for a few hours say around 07:00 to 11:00 and total havoc like it

 

Re:Great, an OS that requires you to be online.

[Skarecrow77]

or you could, you know, just stick with windows 7? It's the new xp or 98se, they're going to be supporting this thing for years and years...

Re:Great, an OS that requires you to be online.

[Sancho]

Come on. Based on that premise, all black hats should be targeting Windows Update servers. WU happens automatically for most Windows users. So far, WU's held strong. There's no reason to believe that said netboot code wouldn't be similarly hardened and protected.

Re:Great, an OS that requires you to be online.

[black soap]

• Monday morning. 8am. Office workers all along the east coast attempt to boot up their computers within a 2 minute period, flooding the servers.
• Every time your system boots up, it has the latest configuration updates, patches, and software versions installed. Even those incompatible with your particular system.
• For National Security/think-of-the-children reasons, government-suggested software is added on a regular basis, usually untested, and without your explicit consent
• Every boot up is considered agreement to most recent version of EULA for most recent version of software, neither of which you can actually view until the computer is running.

Seriously, I can't see any upsides to booting from the cloud that are practical benefits to me.

Re:Great, an OS that requires you to be online.

[vux984]

I don't use Windows much anyhow (other than games) so I guess I'll just be moving to consoles.

a) Right, because consoles haven't been moving towards being always online, or requiring mandatory firmware updates to use, and they certainly have never done anything draconian in terms of drm or copyright protection. They're way more hacker friendly and give you far more freedom than Microsoft Windows does. Are you entirely sure you've thought this move through?

b) I estimate that there is a zero chance that windows 8 will require an internet connection.

Re:Great, an OS that requires you to be online.

[recoiledsnake]

Already happened.

http://securityandthe.net/2008/08/22/rumor-confirmed-both-fedora-and-redhat-servers-hacked/

In connection with the incident, the intruder was able to sign a small
  number of OpenSSH packages relating only to Red Hat Enterprise Linux 4
  (i386 and x86_64 architectures only) and Red Hat Enterprise Linux 5 (x86_64
  architecture only).

http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/87516/Debian_Project_servers_hacked

http://www.cio.com.au/article/369912/free_software_foundation_software_repository_hacked/

Oops wrong OS! Please continue with the regularly scheduled bashing, i mean programming, Slashdot.

Re:Great, an OS that requires you to be online.

[Anonymous Coward]

I honestly didn't know there was such a thing as a Windows fanboy. Learn something new every day.

Re:Great, an OS that requires you to be online.

[danomac]

There is NO chance that windows 8 will be an always on operating system. Stop being an idiot.

Hell, it's even in the summary:

If Microsoft does indeed have designs on using a remote server to push OS code to systems at boot time, that code would be a very clever place to embed activation-related programming.

I (and possibly many others) interpret this as needing an internet connection to boot Windows, as in booting from their remote server.

Re:Great, an OS that requires you to be online.

[vux984]

Hell, it's even in the summary:

And you should know better than to rely on that.

I (and possibly many others) interpret this as needing an internet connection to boot Windows, as in booting from their remote server.

This is why /. readers are often labelled slashtards.

The reference to a "remote server to push OS code to systems at boot time" refers to the fast net booting technology that microsoft patented... where instead of waiting for a complete system image before booting, the system can begin booting much earlier.

Its an enterprise targeted enhancement to net booting that makes net booting more usable.

Its wild speculation crossing the line to complete idiocy to speculate that this net booting capability would be required for all users.

Think about it for half a second. You wouldn't be able to turn your computer on: on a plane. Or a boat. Or in the mountains. Or when visiting a 3rd world country.

How many networks aren't attached to the internet or aren't attached reliably? Military, Medical, Testing, Remote research stations...

How do most hotspots and hotels etc work... you connect to an open network (wired or wireless) but all internet access is blocked and all http access is redirected to a web page to enter in your room number, guest password, whatever... so ALL that infrastructure breaks down too.

Its simply not going to happen.

Re:Great, an OS that requires you to be online.

[marcello_dl]

Which is a good point in the false assumption that microsoft would come out with similar reports instead of covering the thing up and accusing whistleblowers of being terrorists.

But let's assume MS can indeed keep their servers secure. Closed source might help if the source is bulletproof. Realise, though, that a secure netboot system over the internet needs a trusted path between your pc and ms server which must be protected from the user too; if it weren't bad enough, nothing then technically prevents MS to send whatever data about the user to its server through this path masqueraded as validation or authorization procedures.

PS. I first read "windows 8 to fight PRIVACY with the cloud", am I good or what :)

Re:Great, an OS that requires you to be online.

[marcello_dl]

He's not a fanboy, he just is not satisfied with the level of security offered by debian and fedora and therefore chose... er... windows.

Re:Great, an OS that requires you to be online.

[jp10558]

I suppose it depends on your goal. I've basically moved gaming to consoles. Why? Because I've accepted I have different general purpose goals for my general purpose PC than the game companies.

But my Console is special purpose - it does (well, for me anyway) one thing - plays games. And the games *always* work. I've yet to experience a game that is technically unplayable (sadly, there are games where the content is unplayable, but there are books the same etc...) on my PS3. So my goals are actually aligned here - I buy the games, I play the games.

This way, the OS breaking **** from many DRMed games doesn't actually break my "get stuff done" PC. I also don't have to upgrade as often - I can still get "new to me" games for the PS2, and expect my PS3 to last for years longer than my average gaming graphics card or even entire PC.

Good to know

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft confirms Windows 8 to be unusable.

"push OS code to systems at boot time"

[TaoPhoenix]

Found it!

If you no longer even own your full OS and require "pushed OS code at boot time" the Cloud Scam will be complete!

Re:"push OS code to systems at boot time"

[sakdoctor]

Tethering the OS to external dependencies like this, make it worth less (or maybe even worthless) as an OS to me, regardless of the reason for doing it.
And yes, linux distros are generally dependent on repositories, but you get to pick which mirror, including your own internal one.

The cloud and app store marking is hilarious. Inherently inferior mobile/touch inspired interfaces are not going to topple the desktop, because many people have real work to do.

Re:"push OS code to systems at boot time"

[oakgrove]

And yes, linux distros are generally dependent on repositories, but you get to pick which mirror, including your own internal one.

You can always just download the entire repos in one shot and have them at the ready whenever you want. All of Debian, for example, can be downloaded to something like 8 DVD's.

Re:"push OS code to systems at boot time"

[MightyMartian]

I'm fairly certain this will apply mainly to consumer versions. The corporate world won't put up with external dependencies like this for any number reasons, so I'm sure copies bought via corporate channels like volume licensing won't be crippled in this way.

Or maybe I'm wrong, in which case when our next set of upgrades happen in about two or three years, I may in fact be making a strong case for moving from Windows entirely.

Re:"push OS code to systems at boot time"

[NoNonAlphaCharsHere]

The cloud and app store marking is hilarious. Inherently inferior mobile/touch inspired interfaces are not going to topple the desktop, because many people have real work to do.

Have you SEEN the Windows 8 demos? It's all swipes and pinches, it looks more like a tablet OS than a desktop. It's almost as if the touch screen is replacing the mouse the way the mouse deprecated the keyboard.

Re:"push OS code to systems at boot time"

[TubeSteak]

I thought quick booting was the whole point of hybrid hard drives
128/256/512 MB of flash memory is more than enough to hold whatever code MS wants to push over the internet.

Re:"push OS code to systems at boot time"

[h4rr4r]

The mouse deprecated the keyboard?
So you did not use a keyboard to type in that message?

Re:"push OS code to systems at boot time"

[sakdoctor]

... the mouse deprecated the keyboard?

Re:"push OS code to systems at boot time"

[Baloroth]

Don't worry. ~80% of Windows 8 users (the other 19.9% are business users) won't be using this "feature", as TPB edition won't have it...

Re:"push OS code to systems at boot time"

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

If memory serves, Debian will still still treat optical media as "repositories", so that automatic dependency handling and installation still work normally(except for the being prompted for the CD bit); but there is, indeed, no requirement that a repository be external to a machine(you can use optical media for offline machines, and there isn't anything stopping a repository mirror server from acting is its own repository); but ripping the notion of repositories out entirely puts you pretty far from most contemporary distributions and closer to embedded territory...

Re:"push OS code to systems at boot time"

[bhcompy]

Oh, it will be worth less... to start. It's going to have a monthly subscription fee.

Re:"push OS code to systems at boot time"

[Richard_at_work]

I've used the Windows 8 demos, the UI you are referring to is one of several, and not the one I have active. Stop the FUD.

Re:"push OS code to systems at boot time"

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

With 7 and 2008 they are pushing about about as hard in that direction as volume customers will put up with. You either do a one-time activation with microsoft, per computer(don't worry, if you have a high-security or airgapped network you can activate by phone!) or you set up a KMS host(modify our DNS server configuration to support your DRM? Sounds reasonable to me!) which activates with Microsoft, and then serves as a sort of activation proxy for KMS clients who phone home not less than every 180 days.

They didn't try to push a per-machine external dependency, much less a per-boot one; because that Just Wouldn't Be Happening; but your KMS host is going nowhere without external activation.

Re:"push OS code to systems at boot time"

[Skarecrow77]

How many touchscreen monitors at your place of employment? is your employer really likely to replace dozens, or hundreds (or thousands?!) of monitors all at once so that everybody can shove their mouse in the corner? unlikely. The mouse isn't going to be obsolete for a long time. Not to mention I can't imagine trying to play an FPS game with touchscreen controls.

Also, having everybody reaching across their desk to poke their monitor all day long sounds like an ergonomics nightmare.

Re:"push OS code to systems at boot time"

[Anonymous Coward]

but ripping the notion of repositories out entirely puts you pretty far from most contemporary distributions and closer to embedded territory...

Or to Slackware.

Yeah there's slackpkg, but it's little more than a script that untars to / and doesn't do dependencies. There's also slapt-get, but that's 3rd party.

Re:"push OS code to systems at boot time"

[Nethemas the Great]

This would be a major issue for the medical field where it is often IT policy is to block external communication. There's also another major problem that I am truly dumbfounded why no one is really seeing (or at least caring about) and that is the notion of resilient capability. Dependency on the "cloud" for compute resources be they general applications, or now perhaps even the OS itself creates a beautifully vulnerable target for deliberate attack or natural disaster. Just as was evidenced with the 1965, 1996, 2003 blackouts, or any of a long list of other widespread power blackouts. To put all your eggs in a very small number of baskets, with vulnerable lifelines running from consumer to source like this, whatever it is for is most incredibly stupid.

Further, do you people think for a moment that foreign powers, business, or even a nation's own government won't try to exploit this? "We don't like your activities (ideology, ...) we're shutting you down." "We need to protect our intellectual property so lets inject some surveillance code into the start up download."

Re:"push OS code to systems at boot time"

[EdIII]

My thoughts exactly.

I am not worried personally because I am transitioning away to Linux completely on my desktop/laptop, and when required, I access a Windows Server 2008 server across a VPN connection if I need that platform to develop or test something. Most of the stuff I am developing with now even has a Linux version.

If they think for one second that I am going to make an entire company dependent on the Internet connection, they are smoking some real good shit.

No way that corporate will allow this, and just one more reason to keep a heavy push for SAAS. Even, internally, it makes more sense to throw up a bunch of Linux servers and make all your operations web based. You don't need Windows anymore if all you need is a browser to to do your job. With HTML5 coming along, I don't think it will be too much longer before we have just about everything we can think of inside one.

So all that I think we really determined is that Windows Corporate will still be pirated, and Microsoft is trying to create a pretty walled garden like Apple. Just not one that is nearly as comfortable or nice.

Re:"push OS code to systems at boot time"

[Ephemeriis]

Yeah... They'd have to remove that feature, or allow some kind of internal licensing server... Because there's no way in hell I'm going to roll out an OS that bricks my workstations when the Internet goes down.

Re:"push OS code to systems at boot time"

[nschubach]

yes, I copies This Reply using word from This very page with mouse. Who needs keyboard? I just needs someone to supply word.

(ooc: Nobody wrote copy yet?)

Re:"push OS code to systems at boot time"

[morcego]

Corporate will just have a local relay server. Just like most AV companies are doing already (McAfee, F-Secure etc).

Re:"push OS code to systems at boot time"

[MightyMartian]

However they do it, they cannot hope to reasonably ask large enterprise clients to have connectivity to the Internet as a prerequisite of running Windows. It's ludicrous, and there are some situations where it's pretty much impossible, such as notebooks where employees may have to do work where there is no connectivity. I can understand anti-piracy measures, and even to some extent tolerate them, but there comes a point when those measures begin to interfere with baseline operational capacity, and at that point, if they won't bend, then I will ultimately have little choice, whether I want to or not, but to begin looking at alternatives. I'm not in the business of keeping Microsoft afloat, I'm in the business of keeping my organization's IT infrastructure afloat. Microsoft can either be an asset, or at least neutral on the point, or it can get stuffed.

Re:"push OS code to systems at boot time"

[Anonymous Coward]

Read the article very careful. The little detail that killed the cat is INTEL. It is not the OS that allows this abuse, but the famous INTEL's netwrok enabled remote computer management. Even if your computer is powered off (but connected to the the power socket of course)

Re:"push OS code to systems at boot time"

[Anonymous Coward]

Organizations often require your boot-up/login to shake hands with Exchange - what's another 'handshake'? If companies aren't willing to deal with Microsoft as an external dependency, then Microsoft would just charge more for the privilege of controlling the handshake with an in-house 'Enterprise Boot Server, designed to facilitate licensing compliance throughout the organization'...

Re:"push OS code to systems at boot time"

[MightyMartian]

Which doesn't do you a lot of good with notebooks that may not be able to connect to the Internet, let alone an Intranet, but still need to be used.

Re:"push OS code to systems at boot time"

[sconeu]

How can you do a phone home on an airgapped system?

I sysadmined a red network at one point, and there was no way in hell I could have put anything on it that needed to phone home to the Internet.

Well, I could, but then I'd have had a not-so-nice all expenses paid trip to Fort Leavenworth.

Re:"push OS code to systems at boot time"

[Bucky24]

http://www.theonion.com/video/apple-introduces-revolutionary-new-laptop-with-no,14299/

Re:"push OS code to systems at boot time"

[Bucky24]

seriously. If someone can figure out how to disable the GA tools windows has NOW, I'm sure someone can disable whatever they come out with for windows 8.

Re:"push OS code to systems at boot time"

[Anonymous Coward]

My mind keeps going to Microsoft will push this to all user consumer and commercial. I think it is insane that I will need an internet connection to boot my computer. We all now windows 8 will get malware on it just like every other version before it has. I can't boot if I'm not connected to my network.

Moving away from windows is easier said than done. Most business software runs on windows only.

Re:"push OS code to systems at boot time"

[guruevi]

The VLK license codes are usually the ones used in pirated Windows. The VLK codes are easy to mask when the system dials in (it's not unusual that multiple machines have the same code), they usually unlock all the different flavors Windows comes in and not easy for Microsoft to de-active (unless they want to piss off a major client).

It doesn't prevent them from doing so, the institution I work at is at it's 3rd or 4th VLK for WinXP and at least one of them is easily found in Google and will fail the 'Genuine' test.

The problem I find with pushing OS code is that when (not if) a flaw is found in the system or a private key gets found it opens the way for malware to enter into the system and masking as OS boot code it won't be easy to find or remove until it's too late. It's a security incident waiting to happen. The other obvious problems are when the system is not on a network or their systems are not available besides bandwidth. If they allow for systems to run without 'checking in' a crack for the system will easily be built.

If you haven't already migrated away from Windows, I would recommend doing it soon. There is no reason anymore to stay with it. I have successfully phased it out at my place of employment for both Mac and Linux. Sadly people still depend on MS Office so I still have to donate to Bill Gates' trust fund but it's a bunch cheaper than having to buy Windows, Windows Server, CAL's for every single piece of server software they sell etc.

Re:"push OS code to systems at boot time"

[drooling-dog]

The corporate world won't put up with external dependencies like this for any number reasons

The corporate world will put up with whatever MS tells them to. You wouldn't think that exposure to possible BSA audits would be a big hit with them either, but there you go.

Re:"push OS code to systems at boot time"

[MightyMartian]

In this situation, no. There are cases, such as notebooks and workstations that must function in isolated non-networked environments. There are also likely some situations (like mean) where contractual and regulatory environments may make "call home" functionality, particularly to start an OS, may in fact violate the terms we operate under. If we are faced with having to have a version of Windows that has to call home just to boot up, we will likely be forced to look at alternatives.

But I'm pretty skeptical of all of this. Microsoft knows as well as anyone how things work at the corporate level, and they're not going to screw with the goose that lays the golden egg.

Re:"push OS code to systems at boot time"

[Anonymous Coward]

Am I the only one that uses an OS *without* connecting to something-or-other?
If I am José User that needs to take volcanic gas readings (I live in Costa Rica) on my laptop, but it won't boot because there is no connection to some server somewhere - "Hey anybody know about this Linux thing?"

I promise you two things: - M$ is being ripped off here, no doubt, and, I have never seen anywhere that is learning Linux as fast as Costa Rica. ...cm

Re:"push OS code to systems at boot time"

[dissy]

I can understand anti-piracy measures, and even to some extent tolerate them,

The best part about all of this, the pirates will do some combination of designing a local-network server to hand out the correctly signed code (I'll take the WRT module version plz), and/or simply rip this whole bit of Windows code right out and replace it with something that functions offline.

This at least is guaranteed (Proven with a 100% track record of success so far.)

The only people who suffer at such stupid decisions are the people who pay for the software, who by definition are not pirates.
The pirates will have to wait a couple months after release (maybe) and put up with none of that.

All Microsoft will do is delay the pirates a short time, and cause corporate users to avoid it like it was named Vista.

Re:"push OS code to systems at boot time"

[Vegemeister]

My kingdom for a modpoint!

Re:"push OS code to systems at boot time"

[networkBoy]

Only if it is enabled.
It's disabled by default.
It can not be enabled remotely, nor accidentally.

Re:"push OS code to systems at boot time"

[Anonymous Coward]

How terrible for you to have to donate to Bill Gates - who in turn donates his fortune to charity when you'd much prefer to donate to Steve Jobs - who doesn't give away a cent.

Re:"push OS code to systems at boot time"

[Anonymous Coward]

This may be an ignorant question but with the caps being implemented by the ISPs won't this just eat into my monthly allotment faster? I mean, will it mean one less movie to watch each month? Will I need to leave laptop running all the time to reduce data flow (I normally restart four or five times a day or at least every morning)? This was my concern when the whole cloud thing was announced. I know the caps screwed up my online backup.

Re:"push OS code to systems at boot time"

[karnal]

Couldn't you copy one letter at a time to make "copy"?

Re:"push OS code to systems at boot time"

[Nyder]

Found it!

If you no longer even own your full OS and require "pushed OS code at boot time" the Cloud Scam will be complete!

ya, that will work.

no internet? no booting your system.

Re:"push OS code to systems at boot time"

[doccus]

Well. I'm thrilled.. this means free internet from now on.! Do you *really* think that M$ would be able to get away with requiring you to be online in order to use the OS, without subsidizing the 'net ?. .....Just waiting for the 'gaggle' of lawsuits...

Re:"push OS code to systems at boot time"

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

Quite literally.

The machine generates a long-ish alphanumeric sequence and gives you the phone number of some MS call-center. You call, read the poor bastard on the other end that sequence, he reads you one back, you type it in.

Putting on my not-at-all-a-cryptoanalyst-don't-trust-me hat, I suspect that the sequences in question are a bit short to be a useful side channel; but the process is not the paragon of convenience.

Re:"push OS code to systems at boot time"

[TaoPhoenix]

AC wrote : "This may be an ignorant question but with the caps being implemented by the ISPs won't this just eat into my monthly allotment faster? I mean, will it mean one less movie to watch each month? Will I need to leave laptop running all the time to reduce data flow (I normally restart four or five times a day or at least every morning)? This was my concern when the whole cloud thing was announced. I know the caps screwed up my online backup."

Not ignorant at all, AC. You have caught on to one of the related points I've posted on for a little while now. If you squeeze data caps from one end and push more data on the other, it will absolutely crash in the middle - to the profit of the Telcos!

Re:"push OS code to systems at boot time"

[Anonymous Coward]

"There is no reason anymore to stay with it."

Gaming. Yes, I know you can play games on both Mac and Linux, but they don't come anywhere close to the support that's on Windows.

Thats the sole reason why I stick with Windows.

Re:"push OS code to systems at boot time"

[jp10558]

Weird 3rd party hardware. Like some National Instruments cards. . . Labview itself - some of it runs on Linux, but not all of it.

Or special Matlab plugins that only run on Windows (why? I have no idea, Matlab itself runs fine on Linux).

Or people who call the shots who "can't use" anything but Windows.

Or custom internal code that only runs on Windows. Built by a consultant who just refuses to make it a web app - and the powers that be aren't going to dump a large project over some Windows boxes to run the front end.

Re:"push OS code to systems at boot time"

[jp10558]

I actually tried to play NOVA, a FPS game that came on my Droid 3. It's impossible to play via touchscreen for me - but part of that I think is the screen is too small for the UI elements to be far enough apart for me to consistently hit the one I want. Maybe on a 24" I'd have enough room.

That said, I can't see how it would work well with me jabbing at it. I'd have to have it bolted to something more sturdy than the general monitor stands we use here. Even the continued force of keyboard typing if near the top of the monitor would cause it to sway alarmingly. And it's certainly not amenable to being held like the phone. . .

Re:"push OS code to systems at boot time"

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm fairly certain this will apply mainly to consumer versions. The corporate world won't put up with external dependencies like this for any number reasons, so I'm sure copies bought via corporate channels like volume licensing won't be crippled in this way.

Or maybe I'm wrong, in which case when our next set of upgrades happen in about two or three years, I may in fact be making a strong case for moving from Windows entirely.

I moved to Linux six years ago and with each now OS Microsoft releases, I'm increasingly pleased I got away from it.

Hmmm...

[Anonymous Coward]

So will Windows 8 require an internet connection just to turn on the computer?

Re:Hmmm...

[arth1]

So will Windows 8 require an internet connection just to turn on the computer?

Possibly. Not to mention the DLC.

It looks like you are trying to type text. Do you want to download Notepad from the Microsoft App Store?
(Credit card, activation, MSN account and gamer ID required)

Re:Hmmm...

[Anonymous Coward]

So will Windows 8 require an internet connection just to turn on the computer?

To turn it on: no. To boot it up: yes.

Re:Hmmm...

[unencode200x]

Of course not, this is all FUD. See the above comments.

In Soviet Russia....

[Proudrooster]

In Soviet Russia, cloud does not destroy piracy, but instead destroys YOU (the desktop OS).

If we have cloud, tablets, and HTML 5 life is good :)

always seemed weird

[Anonymous Coward]

It always struck as a bit odd how desperately Microsoft attempts to stop people from pirating Windows, especially as other OS options become feasible for people who are suddenly forced to consider paying for an OS for the first time in their lives, and PC builders have started offering computers without Windows pre-installed.

Seems like preserving the massive OS monopoly would be more important to them than stopping piracy that won't result in a large sales boost.

Re:always seemed weird

[mabhatter654]

Because Windows is the promise to OEMs that they will get a sale. Pirate copies take away HARDWARE SALES from the OEMs like Dell Microsoft has bullied for decades. Microsoft views all PC parts sold not for repair as potential Pirate platforms. They can't stop WHITEBOX because 25% of the windows copies sold are from small vendors... That Microsoft gets triple profits from too. If Microsoft broke the whitebox market they'd be an instant monopoly actor because the rest of the market is only 10 other players. (including Apple)

Re:always seemed weird

[Anonymous Coward]

Really? I've always thought the opposite; they want to appear to be fighting pirates, but I don't think they try all that hard, given the resources at their disposal. I think Microsoft knows that piracy of Windows probably isn't costing them very much in the long view, so diverting too much effort to fighting it would be a loss, but the shareholders expect them to at least try... and truthfully they probably do generate some sales by making piracy slightly less attractive.

It's not like they could really stop it without making the OS much less attractive to regular users; the video game industry has been demonstrating this for anyone who cares to listen for a decade now.

Re:always seemed weird

[cornface]

I don't think piracy is what hurts them, it is the fact that six year old middle of the road PCs running XP are still completely fine to use for almost every task that isn't gaming related.

The move to 64-bit everything will maybe go some way towards restarting the hardware race, but for the most part it seems to be dead, and nobody bothers to upgrade an OS until they get another computer.

Re:always seemed weird

[brainzach]

People can still pirate Windows 7 and XP so it won't have a significant factor in the market share.

Re:always seemed weird

[networkBoy]

The driver for new hardware is x64 installs of Windows.
The big driver for new Windows installs (XP replacement) will be 64 bit.
The driver for 64 bit will be the need for more than 3.4 gigs of useable RAM
The driver for needing more ram is all the applications people want to run, which are trending to needing more and more RAM.

In my case, the need was video editing (becoming more and more common) in 1080p (also becoming more common).
This one need ultimately led to a new machine with Win7Business x64 to support the 16 gigs of ram.

720p video cameras can be had for under $200
1080p cameras for under $600
1080p AVCHD cameras for under $1000
All of this drives consumer demand, then they find out their old computer can't handle it and the upgrade cycle starts.

Gawd

[Anrego]

I really hate the direction software and computers are heading.

I'm not that old.. but it just seems like every new thing makes me cringe. Maybe it's for the best and this is the way people want it, and maybe I'm just too attached to the way things are now (or I guess the way things were) to adapt to all this new thinking, but dammit if I don't feel something I'm passionate about is slipping away.

Maybe I should just go plant trees for a living or something :(

Re:Gawd

[Anonymous Coward]

I really hate the direction software and computers are heading.

I'm not that old.. but it just seems like every new thing makes me cringe. Maybe it's for the best and this is the way people want it, and maybe I'm just too attached to the way things are now (or I guess the way things were) to adapt to all this new thinking, but dammit if I don't feel something I'm passionate about is slipping away.

Maybe I should just go plant trees for a living or something :(

Don't give up. You're certainly not the only one who feels this way.

Saying "I don't like the way this industry is headed" is the first step.

Figuring out the next step in the right direction is the second step.

Finding a marketing gal (or guy) who can communicate your feelings about the wrong direction and the value in the right direction to a larger market is the third step.

After that, it's not that hard to be the next Google.

Re:Gawd

[oakgrove]

Have you considered this?

Re:Gawd

[dmacleod808]

Have you considered linking to the parent page and not the actual TORRENT file?

Re:Gawd

[Anrego]

Figuring out the next step in the right direction is the second step.

This is largely the problem, because I acknowledge that while I doing think everything that’s happening now is a good idea, a lot of it really does make sense. The ideas of cloud computing makes my shutter, but from a business standpoint I can see where it’s a good idea.

If your into cars, it’s like longing for the days when you could get in there and change a spark plug without a computer (hyperbole! calm down car guys!) while acknowledging that today’s cars are significantly more reliable.

The way I enjoy(ed) working with computers is making less and less sense in light of modern approaches, and the new way (which I don’t enjoy) is making more sense.

Re:Gawd

[Anrego]

I'll stick with my gentoo thank you very much ;p

This was more of a general "direction of the industry" statement than a "oh god, I'm gonna hate the next windows" statement.

Re:Gawd

[oakgrove]

Why not just cut to the chase? Had I linked ubuntu.com, somebody would have bitched about that. Had I linked to the direct download somebody would have bitched about server load. So I linked to the official torrent and somebody bitches.

::facepalm::

Re:Gawd

[GameboyRMH]

I'm a Gen-Y'er and I feel the same way. Seems like everything's been going backwards since the mid/late 2000s. Computers are turning into toys for passive media consumption.

Re:Gawd

[Anonymous Coward]

I really hate the direction software and computers are heading.

Are you part of the problem? You can stop it you know. Simply kick in the nuts every pirate you find and scold them, "no!" Then repeat until blood comes out their mouth.

People always seem to be pro-pirate but refuse to come to terms that this type of draconian bullshit is directly driven by their pro-piracy position.

If you support piracy, then you absolutely support these draconian counter measures.

Re:Gawd

[armanox]

I consider Ubuntu to be an example of the problem.

Re:Gawd

[oakgrove]

Of course. Debian?

Re:Gawd

[oakgrove]

I don't even know why I'm responding to you but here it goes. The person I responded has a uid in the 800,000's. If he's been around here that long, it's safe to say he has heard of Ubuntu and I was just reminding him of the option.

Re:Gawd

[Anonymous Coward]

You're definitely not the only one. I'm 21 years old, which I think is still in the young adult category, and I too feel sick about what's happening, but it's not only in IT.

It seems everywhere around us everything needs to become easier and easier to use so that not a single dumbass is left behind, and everything needs to be smaller and sleeker so that all the hipsters will use it, sacrificing functionality for ease of use and choosing form over function. I've been getting funny looks whenever I say 'Just fucking google it!' or 'Read the fucking manual!' Our popular culture seems to celebrate ignorance. I can't help but wonder if our ancestors will someday all end up like those fat people in the movie Wall-E.

Then there's also the tendency to steal as much control from the users as possible and to lock everything down as much as possible, in the interests of profit using excuses like safety or ease of use. The recent cloud buzz is just the latest attempt, put even part of your data or software in the cloud and you'll be at the whims of a faceless corporation to access it. Things like DRM on media and electronics are already commonplace. PC gamers suffer draconian protection and console gamers aren't even allowed to experiment with homebrew, lest they are blocked. Western countries are tentatively introducing censorship in one form or another.

Way to go. Now I'm depressed.

Re:Gawd

[Anonymous Coward]

I like this

Re:Gawd

[spazdor]

Well, I support both of those things because they are speeding the proprietary, license-driven "ask permission to do math" model into obscurity.
What sucks is that the business world is still kinda locked-into that way of doing things - but they have to get off of it sooner or later.

Re:Gawd

[SuperTechnoNerd]

No, your feelings are telling you the truth. I'm like you, I have been in the computer industry for 30 years and your not seeing things, its all going to shit, and it has been for a while now:
I had a windows XP machine mothballed in a closet for a couple years and I needed it in a hurry for a project I was working on. I booted fine all was well, however I needed to put a more beefy video card in it. I installed the card and driver then rebooted. Upon reboot windows said some bullshit about the hardware on this machine has changed significantly since windows was installed, please re enter your product key, you have 3 days to comply.
I hit the fucken roof! I have no Idea where the serial # is (no sticker on the unit) and I did not have time to waist looking. I was on a deadline and I was angry as hell. HOW DARE an os tell me what to do with a computer and OS I PURCHACED in good faith. It's was like 2AM I was pissed and tired. A 30 minute job turned into 2 hours. I did the only thing I could. I found a "free" older version (berfore this WGA bullshit) "somewhere on the internet with a key" installed it and met my deadline. PISS OFF MICROSOFT!
So hearing this disgusts me even more. This is the last straw. I AM DONE WITH MICROSOFT! Besides I think this is the begining of the end for their OSes anyhow. Glitzy Gizmos and DooDads is all the rage now, forget about trying to get any work done. In addition, as a rule I don't do updates, and I block all outgoing traffic to Microshit in my router.

Re:Gawd

[Anonymous Coward]

This may be a good time to explore Linux.

Re:Gawd

[Anonymous Coward]

Most people only know how to use the internet and PC's. By use, I mean read on-screen information some of the time, hit the blinking button, and/or find the download link on a page.

Even most people in the field need to stay informed constantly to find out how things are changing.

Basically everything is moving very fast, and firms like Microsoft are taking advantage of the confusion. Even if every Slashdotter understands what is happening here, we're still a very small, far too small percentage to affect things in any way. I mean, if it were that simple, we would have ended the first decade of the linux desktop a few years ago.

Re:Gawd

[Truekaiser]

Piracy is not the cause, it's mostly the scape goat because you can NEVER get rid of it.
The problem is the media companies & the w.o.w. software model system.

The former can't seem to get their head's out of their rear ends to realize that the days of them spoon feeding media content on their own terms are over. release windows(in theaters for a few weeks, then gone, then on sale, then gone, then finally in the rental store and ppv. rinse and repeat with movie regions.) are dead. they push for more draconian drm because they don't want to admit to the fact that in the new landscape your in control of when & how you want to see something instead of them. pirates were around all the way back to the start of the media companies(most of them STARTED from being pirates because they did not want to pay Edison the licence fees.). they have existed all through the history and never really put any sort of dent in their profits at all.

the World of Warcraft & software as a service model system is to blame too. Microsoft and apple along with several game companies want to go from selling a product and giving free support for the product to making it so that the software you buy is 'not' software but a service. one they can charge monthly fees to use. one they charge for patches, upgrades, content. generally at little or no cost to them since for example most games with dlc make everything in one go, cut parts out by putting them behind activation codes or totally by removing them from the 'gold rtm code base' only to sell them as dlc later. what they don't tell you is that the cost of the game is normally recouped from the initial sale of the game. the money gotten from dlc and subscription is nearly 100% profit. For world of Warcraft the monthly subscription cost compared to that of bandwidth cost and server space is about 70-85% profit. it's so low because they own their own servers and it really doesn't take that much space disk wise to keep track of a single character. a few KB really.

Re:Gawd

[Travelsonic]

Your logic sucks.

IMO, piracy may drive these new measures, but if a counteraction is too draconian, how is that the fault of anybody other than those insisting it is needed [as opposed to less draconian measures]? Shift the blame much?

Re:Gawd

[Bucky24]

So link all three and get everyone bitching at once :D

Re:Gawd

[Amouth]

Maybe I should just go plant trees for a living or something :(

i would love to be a forester - but there is too much market saturation for it..

Re:Gawd

[Anonymous Coward]

You aren't alone in the way you feel.

"Cloudatizing" things makes them far more fragile; devices should be able to run independant of the internet, but businesses are strapped for cash and will do anything short of gutting you for ebony to get cash out of you.

Why?

Bank A makes a loan to Guy A for a Car, when bank B gets the check they write it into their deposits and the cash moves over and gets spent. If $10,000 existed before, now $20,000 exists, 10,000 of which is "encumbered" or must be paid back with interest but to everyone else it looks like new money, which creats inflation at 3% per year. Problem is, when your ratio of unencumbered to encumbered currency gets too high, people have issues servicing the debt and they begin rolling it over; taking on debt to pay debt which destroys price signalling and makes things more expensive. If you just let people default and let the problem fix itself, the economy implodes and there's no place for you to hide your savings but in cash and hope the proletariat doesn't steal it or worse, lynch you and steal it. Hardcore bankers know this, thus they keep rollover going even though it's mathematically impossible.

This in turn squeezes budgets.

The "Lets take Indian Spagetti code, put it in THE CLOUD, and make it work for us doubletime, then outsource every business process to cheapen our company and make it look like lego's" or the is very much pie in the sky thinking, as is the "cloud everything including apps" mentality and often causes companies to implode. "Process management" does indeed make companies weaker and more susseptable to failures. It's the hardworking, unrewarded people who keep them going and I, for one, am tired of busting balls for companies that are constantly looking for ways to replace me or not give me a hard earned raise because someone else is there to take my place.

The internet has become the new entertainment medium and is becoming as corrupt as TV, but whereas before it was just in your livingroom, now it's everywhere and all the big wigs are scared sh*tless about the next big thing like the ipod or iphone "killing the PC". As though we're going to get rid of a cheap, reliable general purpose device for another. If an IPAD could do everyting a PC could in 5 years, would it replace a PC? Or would it just be a PC in a different form? See the HP TC1100. Everyone seems to think if they can get into every nook and cranny of your life t hey can somehow eek out a compeditive advantage and make a buck. It's disgusting.

Microsofts intent is to eliminate piracy; they will fail because people want a machine that will work when not connected to the internet and because of that the mechanism they it will be spoofed. VLK from manufacturers, bootloaders, whatever. Is it going to get cracked on the same day as release? Probably. And when it does I'll crack it then ban MS's servers at my router. Done deal.

Microsoft's next OS is very likely going to blow buckets anyway. Windows 7 was mostly an update of XP and has some very nice features that should've been in XP but weren't. The things that would seriously consolidate labor and free people up to develope stuff is just not there and most of the new features are for Microsoft to sell you cloud products on a subscription which, honestly, most people think is crap.

Smart people spend their money on things that are not a panacea.

Re:Gawd

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree. I have been using computer since I got a C64 for my sixth birthday and after realizing that the internet has simply made being a computer hobbyist a hassle rather than a pleasure due to activation I have decided that my q9550 system is the last one I will ever build.

There is simply no motivation to spend lots of money on a crippled system which requires a subscription fee (broadband cost) to use at all.

I'll stick with whatever laptop they have on sale if I buy a new computer... but the passion is lost to be "into" computers. Now I will just use them because I have to.

Re:Gawd

[blahplusplus]

" but it just seems like every new thing makes me cringe."

With the advent of the net companies can now get away with tying their software to require online. We see what's happened to PC games where every other game is an MMO. Heck, age of empires online is a free to play MMO not a proper sequel for god sakes! The thing is developers are purposely trying to make their software less valuable trying to turn software into "software as a service" (more like software as a scam). I hate the model as well but games have gotten significantly more costly to make and some developers feel like they have no alternative in order to make money.

http://www.ageofempiresonline.com/

Re:Gawd

[aliquis]

"Sorry but since they went graphical the live CD installer can't boot my system!"

(Yeah, really. The first one which went graphical couldn't, the last one I downloaded this summer with the new UI couldn't. Debian can, of course, Knoppix can with some help. A guy I know told me some other Ubuntu disc he was talking about would work (some CD?) I don't know. I've got no need to fiddle with shit longer.)

I don't know why, I don't really care, I would prefer an installation which left me with less working but where the installer worked and had me figure out how to get the rest to work rather than where the installation tried to make everything work, screwed up and had me left with the task of figuring out what the fuck it tried to do and why it doesn't work =P)

Re:Gawd

[Anonymous Coward]

Jewbuntu is crap, just like everything else coming out of South Africa (niggertown) these days.

Re:Gawd

[Microlith]

Ubuntu is barreling down the path that Apple and Microsoft are. They may be pursuing Unity, but that's nothing compared to the outright crippling and heavy DRM that MS and Apple have eagerly pursued in the mobile space. They both want to displace cheap general purpose computers with cheap, crippled, and controlled platforms, while pushing general purpose hardware up into the multi-thousands (before you even get into the inevitable extra-cost development software.)

Re:Gawd

[Kartu]

Can't play games on it. Some get with Wine, but with huge performance penalty.
Killing OpenGL (name games that are developed for it, if it's alive) was a very smart move by Microsoft.

Re:Gawd

[Anonymous Coward]

Please elaborate.

Re:Gawd

[Anonymous Coward]

I see you're new here.

Re:Gawd

[Anonymous Coward]

You're not alone. I'm just a young'n, and I feel the EXACT same way.

Re:Gawd

[Anonymous Coward]

When a significant amount of hardware changes in Windows you just need to reactivate (original license key is *not* required). Just read the instructions on the screen. If you're not online it's a simple matter of calling a phone number, typing a few numbers in. It takes like 60 seconds. Nothing to it has been this way since Windows XP (for almost 10 years).

Re:Gawd

[monkyyy]

or mint, ubuntu is the vista of the deb tree

Re:Gawd

[Anonymous Coward]

I consider Ubuntu to be an example of the problem.

Actually,so do I. Maverick Meerkat will be the last version of Ubuntu I use. When it's no longer supported,I can easily move to a different distro.

Webcams

[wsxyz]

Insider sources are also claiming that PCs booting Windows 8 will snap a picture with the webcam and send it to Microsoft as part of the boot sequence.

Re:Webcams

[Capt.DrumkenBum]

Windows 8 will snap a picture with the webcam and send it to Microsoft as part of the boot sequence.

So now if you are not sitting in front of your computer it will put up a message saying something like:
No face defected. Smile for the camera to continue.

Just to add to the trauma of a horrible disfiguring injury now you will have to buy a new windows license if your face is disfigured.

For the sense of humour impaired: I am just having fun with paranoia.

Re:Webcams

[Captain Sarcastic]

For the sense of humour impaired: I am just having fun with paranoia.

Or maybe you were told to say that... :)

Re:Webcams

[Anonymous Coward]

Clippy says: You appear to be hot. Please stand up and turn around in order to continue...

Re:Webcams

[Anonymous Coward]

I love webcam required boots as it serves to spread pictures of my Cheetos stained junk to more and more places. Fear me.

Re:Webcams

[GameboyRMH]

Just to add to the trauma of a horrible disfiguring injury now you will have to buy a new windows license if your face is disfigured.

Hey when you have to buy a new windows license after a mobo failure, there are only a few ways left to "improve" the Windows user experience.

Re:Webcams

[UnknowingFool]

I knew that Barney Dinosaur costume was going to come in handy one day.

Re:Webcams

[Aladrin]

Let's not forget all the racism issues with webcam-based facial recognition, too!

Re:Webcams

[Anonymous Coward]

Not to mention that face recognition has a hard time with black people...

Re:Webcams

[unencode200x]

Funny. I've heard that there will be a facial recognition logon option. http://www.networkworld.com/news/2011/042211-windows8-facial-recognition.html

Obvious question

[Brett Buck]

How is that going to work with systems that are not connected to the Internet? Like almost all of the systems I use at work and any secure system.

Re:Obvious question

[Anonymous Coward]

So now I will need my computer working to let my computer connect to my router to leave my computer working to let my computer connect to my router to leave my computer working to let my computer connect to my router to leave my computer working...

Thanks Microsoft

Re:Obvious question

[Rogue974]

I was thinking the exact same thing. I work in industrial controls and our controls computers are completely (by air gap) seperated from the outside world and internet for VERY specific reasons. We use windows machines now, but if the mentioned patent is they must get to the internet on boot up to phone home or won't work, then we will have to replace every windows box with something else, or just stay on earlier version of windows forever.

We are not alone in this concern and I can't imagine that the number of people that will have similiar set ups is small, so Microsoft has to think about this and solve it. If not, they are idiots and are going to force secure sectors to go to a differnent OS. They can't be that stupid...can they?

Re:Obvious question

[Anonymous Coward]

>secure system
>Windows
Nope.

Re:Obvious question

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly. I think the bit about streaming OS code is a bit too paranoid. Especially since Windows 8 seems to be focused on tablets and laptops, which are both portable and thus not always connected to the internet.

If an internet connection was required to boot Win8, then I think for the first time it wouldn't be wishful thinking to say that there would be a mass migration away from Windows. Or maybe everyone would stick with Win7 instead.

Re:Obvious question

[equex]

You will wander into an office with internet, plug in the USB flash drive that boots a minimal OS to retrieve an auth key. Take said USB stick and plug in to offline computer. You betcha.

Re:Obvious question

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't forget the final step: Destroy USB flash drive because now it's been connected to the secure network and can't leave.

Re:Obvious question

[brainzach]

Couldn't they just enable the protection when there is an Internet connection?

The market for computers that don't connect to the Internet is small enough that it probably isn't a big factor in piracy.

Re:Obvious question

[Anonymous Coward]

Destroy USB flash drive because now it's been connected to the insecure network and can't be reconnected to the secure network.

FTFY.

To the roots

[iONiUM]

Microsoft needs to go back to their roots and remember that their success in the PC market these days can largely (but of course, not entirely) be attributed to the fact that many younger people pirated their OS and used it a lot.

This is why they should just let piracy go, especially for the OS and Visual Studio, that way when people enter the workforce, they already are accustomed to these things. This is why RIM should be so disturbed that many younger people don't use BlackBerry's anymore; when those younger people enter the workforce, they're going to scream and yell to get their iPhone's and Android's connected to the exchange server.

It has always been this way, and Microsoft would be stupid to forget it.

That said, there's the China piracy problem, which is outside of above.. maybe this is targeting that..

Re:To the roots

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow. Only on Slashdot can a jackass like this advocating piracy be modded up. What do you do for a living asshole, so I can come and steal, oh excuse me, "infringe", the fruits of your labor? You fucking crooks deserve to be curb-stomped.

Re:To the roots

[0123456]

Calm down, Steve Balmer. Put down that chair.

Oh, and in my last job I spent about ten years writing software that was given away for free; you couldn't run our hardware without it, and that was where we made our money.

Re:To the roots

[jedidiah]

Hey. Whatever does the job. Of course neither you nor I have any standing in this matter. So the fact that you are b*tching about this is totally bogus. It's up to Microsoft to decide if tolerating piracy is good for their bottom line. It simply isn't up to you.

You can argue about whether or not it makes good business sense.

Whether or not it is "right" is not up to you.

Re:To the roots

[Anonymous Coward]

"This is why RIM should be so disturbed that many younger people don't use BlackBerry's anymore;"

Except in the UK at least, BlackBerry is very popular amongst the young for it's BBM service. It's got lots of media coverage recently relating to people using it to communicate during the riots.

Re:To the roots

[adisakp]

This is why they should just let piracy go, especially for the OS and Visual Studio, that way when people enter the workforce, they already are accustomed to these things..

The OS should be cheaper... no way should the basic crippled version of the OS cost $100 for an upgrade and $200 for the full version. Mac OS X is $29.99 and has almost no OS Piracy.

Also, just FWIW, MS does have a free version of Visual Studio called Visual Studio Express that works quite well for students.

Re:To the roots

[Lisias]

One can not said it better.

I'm moving myself from Windows (as user and as developer) for a good 18 months by now.

If i'm going to deal with User Activations and constant authorizations to play games, I would (and I did) just move on to PS3 gaming. Cheaper and with a more user friendly (pun not intended) activation and run authorization mechanism.

If I'm going to develop to mobile, cloud, whatever, anything is better than Windows. Even a plain linux box.

I'm one step from creating my VMs on /usr/tmp anyway, I literally throw it away when a project is delivered - it's easir and safer to have a "standard, plain" image and use ir to recreate the VM that fits exactly the project that demands it.

(Common, who will activate every single Virtual Machine installation to an one run test suit?)

You can have the better OS in the world - but if no one feels comfortable to develop on it, it will fails sooner or later.

#webOS anyone?

There's two years since I developed my last Windows application. There's 18 months since I HAD to use Windows to develop anything.

And I don't miss it!

p.s.: Nokia, can you care enough to support Linux on your tools? Or you really thinks that imposing Windows or MacOS to me will incentive me to develop for Nokia instead for Android?

Re:To the roots

[bmo]

He's just echoing the common sense that Bill Gates has said over the years.

Gates shed some light on his own hard-nosed business philosophy. "Although about 3 million computers get sold every year in China, but people don't pay for the software," he said. "Someday they will, though. As long as they are going to steal it, we want them to steal ours. They'll get sort of addicted, and then we'll somehow figure out how to collect sometime in the next decade."

http://news.cnet.com/2100-1023-212942.html

"It's easier for our software to compete with Linux when there's piracy than when there's not." - Bill Gates

The Economist. Piracy: Look for the Silver Lining (July 19th-25th, 2008 ed.). pp. 23

If you write software, you're better off tolerating the thieves in order to get market share.

--
BMO

Re:To the roots

[Anonymous Coward]

I sincerely hope you burn in hell.

Re:To the roots

[Anonymous Coward]

To the vast majority of people Windows is already free with the purchase of their computer.

As for Visual Studio, Microsoft has offered free versions of that for six years now with fully functional code editing, visual designers and debugging and has offered their SDKs, command line compilers and documentation for free download for even longer.

Re:To the roots

[iONiUM]

You are ignorant if you think consumer purchasing is what gives big companies their bottom line.

The majority of Microsoft's revenue is from Office sales and re-subs, and those are from corporations. There's no money in consumers from this perspective.

Sorry that you don't like that fact.

Re:To the roots

[dmacleod808]

certainly OSX is pirated, but they don't have any DRM because 1. it is cheap and 2. the DRM is technically hardware based. Personally that DRM is easy to break, I am running 10.7.1 on my off the shelf PC.

Re:To the roots

[oakgrove]

So, if Wal-Mart says it's cool to allow a certain amount of shoplifting and that it is good for their business thereby legitimizing it, Target should probably be okay with that, right?

Re:To the roots

[Anonymous Coward]

Why contain it? Let it spill over the schools and churches, let the bodies pile up in the streets. In the end they'll beg us to save them.

-- Bob Page on the grey death virus, ca. 2052

Re:To the roots

[irreverentdiscourse]

I'm sure this works very well for the less than 1% of PC users that work like you do.

Re:To the roots

[Billly Gates]

Balmer shows he is out to lunch and out of touch with the 99% of everyone else in this world. He has been stating on record "If you can afford a PC than you can afford $600 for a licensing" in the asian market. Hello, these people buy their computers used for crying out loud. $600 for Windows/Office is equilivent of $5,000 for you and I for these folks. Would you pay that?

Maybe the Chinese will make their own nationalistic OS. I would like to say Linux based but Trinity and Gnome 3 make it unusable and inferior compared to Windows. If banks stop requiring IE 6 they could use a different OS.

Marketers keep forgetting that no matter how many times they try to sell us crap that if we can't afford it we wont get it. MS needs to wake up and slash prices heavily and make up by volume. Its better than nothing and I think the Chinese will switch to an Andriod tablet first before paying all the $$$ for a Windows 8 desktop.

Re:To the roots

[Anonymous Coward]

Software is not a physical thing, it can't be stolen.

Re:To the roots

[Just Some Guy]

That was Bill Gates saying that piracy is good for Microsoft, submitted as supporting evidence to iONiUM's argument that piracy is good for Microsoft. That seems pretty topical to me.

Re:To the roots

[oakgrove]

I didn't say it wasn't "topical". I was just making a point.

Re:To the roots

[Anonymous Coward]

Whatever makes you sleep better at night, asshole.

Re:To the roots

[ZFox]

FWIW: Microsoft gives away the full version to students. https://www.dreamspark.com/default.aspx

Re:To the roots

[Capt.DrumkenBum]

There is still OS piracy. Believe me.
But on the other hand at $29.99 I went out and bought Snow Leopard. I have not yet seen a compelling reason to upgrade to Lion.

Re:To the roots

[bmo]

Protip: Retailers allow a certain amount of "stealing" (selling things at a loss) to get people in the door.

I see piracy as a market distortion. It locks out alternatives and competition. To wit, the last quote I put there. Bill Gates saw this. You don't. This is one reason why Bill Gates is rich. Personally, I would love to see this "unbreakable licensing" implemented. It would drive people to Linux in droves.

You are a fool if you reject the reality that piracy helps companies through increasing market share.

--
BMO

Re:To the roots

[oakgrove]

Do you not think I realize that one of the main reasons Linux is locked out of the market is piracy? I understand perfectly well that Bill Gates would rather you pirate windows than use an alternative. Why do you think that I rail against it? I wish piracy could be stamped out completely. Then maybe some free alternatives might stand a better chance. You need to learn how to read between the lines to see when somebody is on the same team rather than lashing out.

Re:To the roots

[bmo]

>You need to learn how to read between the lines to see when somebody is on the same team rather than lashing out.

Then you need to stop taking my statement of facts as an endorsement and flaming me for it.

Capice?

And yes, if Walmart is having good success with a business model, it would be stupid for Target to not try it out.

--
BMO

Re:To the roots

[oakgrove]

capice

What do you think you're in the mob, asshole? Fucking jackass.

Re:To the roots

[toriver]

You do not see the significant difference between physical theft and unlicensed copying? Thankfully, the laws do.

(Hint: If act A is illegal and act B is illegal, does that mean A and B are the same act?)

Re:To the roots

[Anonymous Coward]

Keep justifying, asshole. Piece of shit, thief.

Re:To the roots

[bmo]

Italian == mob

Yeah. Say hello to your new status, moron.

Jesus Christ.

--
BMO

Re:To the roots

[Anonymous Coward]

Enjoy being a thieving bitch.

Re:To the roots

[Bucky24]

Maybe the Chinese will make their own nationalistic OS

Golden OS?

Re:To the roots

[Lisias]

Point taken.

Problem is... How the other 99% of PC users can use PCs without that 1% of PC users that use PCs like me?

If I can develop software cheaper, faster and better with anything but Windows, the only possible incentive to develop on Windows is a considerable monetary incentive or - in plain english - charging the end user a lot more.

The Android market is a mess, but I'm making money on it without a lot of costs. Things are not perfect, but everything WORKS.

The iPhone market is well organized, but the extra costs on development are crunching my profits so I must charge more to worth the pain.

The Nokia market is trying to catch up, and the extra costs on development (not to mention the Windows' idiosyncrasies that waste my time - I'm serious, the emulators are slower and buggier on Windows than on MacOSX in a lesser machine!) leads me to charge premium to develop a product that aggregates far less value than iPhone or Android.

I don't see why this status quo will be different on desktop development.

Re:To the roots

[loufoque]

Visual Studio is essentially free.

Re:To the roots

[toriver]

I am sure you are suffering from Tourette's-by-keyboard, but this tendency to think that everyone who knows there is a difference between two illegal acts are defending either is getting tiresome. I am not pirating, in case you wonder; but you are not wondering, you are just declaring your twisted reality...

Re:To the roots

[DJ Particle]

Crap...I wrote a nice reply to this, and didn't notice I wasn't logged in. -.- And now the post isn't even showing up as "Anonymous Coward"

Basically, if anyone saw it, it's the post about how DRM is hurting Windows right now, and how Apple may be counting on piracy for market penetration.

I feel like such a noob right now.... **embarrassed**

Re:To the roots

[avatar139]

Microsoft needs to go back to their roots and remember that their success in the PC market these days can largely (but of course, not entirely) be attributed to the fact that many younger people pirated their OS and used it a lot.

Actually what I think a lot of people forget is that things have shifted substantially from where they used to be as Microsoft started out by following more of an Open Source model of development and Apple used to be the major proponent of the merits of proprietary software.

However recent debates regarding the merits of iOS aside, for the most part, Apple started going more in the direction of incorporating Open Source technologies by making the decision to incorporate the GCC for development on OS X which has made it very easy to port and develop for various FLOSS projects (it's all *NIX after all ;) while Microsoft has maintained it's efforts in supporting FUD studies, lawsuits and "shared patent agreements" amongst other scare tactics to keep pressure on businesses to prevent them from jumping ship to other platforms/solutions.

I'm not saying it's black or white by any means, but I just think it's interesting to see how things have changed in the Valley since the 80s whenever I get the chance to talk to people who were around then to get their perspective on current events/trends in IT.

DRM within OS

[saurongt]

So how long before we get something like Steam going with Operating systems? Type in your uid and password, and instantly get your operating system with all customizations from any computer. Best part: it goes on sale for $10 twice a year.

Re:DRM within OS

[Aladrin]

Oh, my favorite are the bundles... Not sure how they'd work that with OS's, but I'm sure they'd find a way.

Re:DRM within OS

[HuguesT]

We have that with OS X already through the App Store, minus the sale so far though.

Re:DRM within OS

[Bucky24]

I could see something like that. But you gotta think, how would one get the Steam-like program on the computer in the first place? Maybe it gets installed first, in place of the bootloader. But then you've basically just got another OS (since it would need drivers for mouse, keyboard, and network hardware).

Re:DRM within OS

[DJ Particle]

Not *really* -- The installer can be copied out and transferred to other Macs. Can even be burned to tangible media. I know because I've done it.

Are you serious?

[jaskelling]

"on using a remote server to push OS code to systems at boot time," 1) Not everyone is always connected to the internet. A good number of machines are not. 2) While it may be used to assist in piracy prevention, how long until someone figures out how to spoof that server and serve malicious code to the OS at boot time. Because ya know, that's better than having some pirated software out there. 3) It will be cracked sooner or later. They've tried this with Office 2010 to an extent and Adobe with CS 5.5. They've both been cracked. It's a stupid game of cat and mouse. There will always be piracy and theft. How about everyone spends some of that money on actually improving the product & making the experience of the paying users suck less as opposed to being a momentary irritation to a pirate?

Re:Are you serious?

[Baloroth]

A momentary irritation to a pirate and a massive headache for non-pirates. It's how software business is run nowadays: make your product less usable than the pirated version in order to stop piracy. Only a CEO could think of something that brilliant! Looks like someone will be getting a nice end-of-year bonus for an "innovative solution."

Re:Are you serious?

[babywhiz]

There is a whole sector of small business, esp Manufacturing, that MS is totally forgetting about. Can you imagine having your airplane parts being designed and produced by machines that were forced to be connected to the Internet at all times? I just can't believe that Investors are so greedy that they can't see the implications of where they are trying to push the market to go. I can't believe companies are chasing so hard after the 'faceville' crowd, that they are forgetting that there are still manufacturing companies still here in the US that depend on having reliable products that can't necessarily be 'always online'. Between this and HP getting out of the PC business, I'm ready to throw in the towel. Screw you greedy bastages, I'm going home.

Re:Are you serious?

[smudj]

Umm, it's an article by a 3rd party, it's not written by Microsoft, Windows 8 isn't released. Turn down your anti-MS hate.

Re:Are you serious?

[smudj]

You do realize this article is just "speculation" by a 3rd party? There are no statements from MS saying any of what the article is implying.

Re:Are you serious?

[irreverentdiscourse]

1) MS is not dense, they understand that corporate networks are not always hooked up to the internet. You are not the first person to think of this. 2) Who cares, MS has repeatedly said in the past they don't care about piracy. This is more about cloud control of the OS than OS authentication. It's just a first step. 3) See 2.

Re:Are you serious?

[babywhiz]

I don't hate MS, every moment of my life (awake or not), depends on the stability of Microsoft products. They have been good to me, even if only quirky once in a while (*points at Microsoft Office File Validation bringing spreadsheets to a crawl, if ever opening...I'm looking at you*). I just wish that 'all' of the business consumer voice was heard, not just the Investor voice or 'Squirrel' mentality (see this weeks TDS for reference.). Have you ever tried to run Autocad Inventor on a tablet or a smart phone? Heck, these programs have become so large that it takes almost a full horse work station just to run the viewers.....but I digress. American manufacturing environment needs are being ignored, in lieu of *SQUIRREL*, and it's getting annoying.

Re:Are you serious?

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft *MUST* be targeting this technical concept at "Joe Consumer" since the thought of "always connected the the 'Net" and "pulling the OS from the cloud" will definitely offend [some] [most] [all] (pick one) of Microsoft's enterprise customers. Notice that M$ came out with a "Key Management Server" for Windows Server 2008 installations, otherwise that OS would shutdown after 120 or 180 days. Yeah, I forgot how long the key period is since I don't use M$ server software anymore.

I can see the future of M$ Enterprise Sales now:
Micro$oft Account Manager makes sales call on existing, probably long-time enterprise customer.
M$ - "Hey! We got this cool new Windows desktop OS that boots in seconds! It replaces Windows 7 and runs on...."
Cust - "Show me!"
M$ - "Where can I plug in my laptop on your network so I can boot up?"
Cust - "Huh? What? Why do you need an Internet connection?"
M$ - "This new OS has to check in with M$ when it boots. It's a piracy preventation method. Then it downloads the OS pieces it needs."
Cust - "Take your [expletive deleted] OS and take a hike M$"
Customer shows M$ account manager the door using one or more feet and possibly a solid shove or two.
Cust - "Don't come back cuz I'm switching to...[fill in the blank with favorite alternate Windows OS]"

Windows 8 is mobile-only

[Anonymous Coward]

If any of this is even remotely true you'll never see it deployed in corporate networks. They'd be laughed out of the office.

Re:Windows 8 is mobile-only

[SmurfButcher Bob]

For sure. The only way this'd see any enterprise penetration would be with a local license server - you know, like the one we got rid of when NT4 went out of vogue.

If not, all I can say is... FFS, hasn't anyone learned from the Sonicwall stupidity?

Re:Windows 8 is mobile-only

[afidel]

We already have that, it's called KMS and it's fairly painless once you set it up. For those machines that will never talk back to the mothership you have MAK keys, which are indeed a liability but since they have to be activated and have a limited number of uses I think most IT departments are much better about protecting them than they were VLK's. To be honest I don't see MS changing things too drastically from the KMS system as any further tightening would be unlikely to raise revenue appreciably and might drive enterprise users to Linux.

Re:Windows 8 is mobile-only

[gad_zuki!]

Already do this with KMS and MAK keys. KMS keys talk to a local license server. I think these articles are just written in a way to scare people and sell ad impressions. In the end, we're probably just seeing a different kind of volume key for corporate and maybe more hoops for residential users. "ZOMG DOWNLOAD AN IMAGE EVERY BOOT FROM MS" is kiddie bullshit.

Re:Windows 8 is mobile-only

[h4rr4r]

MS should really give a free license for the KMS server. Why should I have to pay for a license for a box to validate licenses?

Re:Windows 8 is mobile-only

[mabhatter654]

Why? Most Admins would LOVE the chance for machines to be forced to phone home more often. Microsoft will add a "keep alive" function to Enterprise copies for sure. It would Still get keyed every time a user hit the AD which is at least daily in the enterprise world. Users would never know unless the went on long vacations with their machines away from work.

Re:Windows 8 is mobile-only

[afidel]

Most of the customers using KMS are big enough to be using datacenter licenses and virtualization so the marginal cost is insignificant (my reading the docs and doing the install probably cost my employer more than the 1GB VM did).

Re:Windows 8 is mobile-only

[h4rr4r]

How do you figure?
We have only a few windows boxes, as few as we can, and still the MAK keys we are given are no where near enough for testing use.

Re:Windows 8 is mobile-only

[afidel]

Why are you using MAK for testing? Just use KMS as clients that fail to check in are released from your KMS pool after 90 days.

Re:Windows 8 is mobile-only

[h4rr4r]

I meant this is what forced us to setup a KMS server. Otherwise we would have run out of MAK.

Re:Windows 8 is mobile-only

[afidel]

Well if you're a small shop and still need KMS for some reason just install it on one of your existing servers. It uses hardly any resources even with ~1,000 clients checking in and the ports it binds to aren't exactly widely used.

patent this?

[Anonymous Coward]

game...

fudging..

over.

I wonder

[Anonymous Coward]

How long until this scans your computer for pirated software or mp3's before allowing it to boot?

Re:I wonder

[SuperTechnoNerd]

How do you know that's not already happening? Do you know the contents of the data your os sends microsoft every day?

Stick with the old

[SpinningCone]

Guess ill just be staying with windows 7

Re:Stick with the old

[ifrag]

Yep, hopefully 7 will be the new XP, and get around a decade of use with an extended update cycle.

As long as there isn't some stupid thing like DirectX 12 as Windows 8 exclusive. Then again, most developers are still shipping DX9 engines with the extra features as options that don't really add much.

Re:Stick with the old

[GameboyRMH]

As long as there isn't some stupid thing like DirectX 12 as Windows 8 exclusive.

You bet your ass there will be, this is exactly what they did with Halo 3 for the PC.

But hopefully someone will come out with a crack to install DX12 on 7, just like last time.

Re:Stick with the old

[irreverentdiscourse]

and 4 years later there is still no real reason to run DX10... especially for a console port.

Re:Stick with the old

[loufoque]

You mean Windows XP.

meh

[Anonymous Coward]

Tired of this cloud crap. Not everyone has access to fiber-op internet.

Simple solution to this.. Don't use windows 8 heh. I don't care much for this app crap anyway. Windows 8 app store? So you want me to buy the OS for a large sum of money, and then spend even more money in your app store to flesh out what you'll make sure is a minimalist OS?

Sneaky sneaky. Maybe I should put on a tin-foil hat but don't buy it, and I won't.

Besides, nothing's uncrackable :/ The more you say it is, the more people are going to try, and for something as big as an OS, you can damn well bet people are going to try.

Re:meh

[GameboyRMH]

I'm hoping to get my gaming PC off Windows before I need to upgrade to 8. Then I'd be 100% Windows free :D

Re:meh

[Mashiki]

Since nearly all games use DX, and don't use OGL, I'm sure that'll work just fine for you. Wine is nice, but isn't anywhere good enough to support current DX titles. Then again if you don't mind playing games that are/or/will be 10 or more years old. Well that's just fine then.

do a lot of people really pirate Windows?

[alen]

i mean most computers are bought at retail with real licenses. how many people really pirate windows compared to microsoft's cost to implement this?

or did the ipad and just cheap fast hardware really stretch the upgrade cycle so MS is hoping to cash in on an OS upgrade and needs to a way to protect themselves?

Re:do a lot of people really pirate Windows?

[Anonymous Coward]

Its not that but if you bought it but when you change something on your computer for instance when the motherboard dies or you upgrade it then the fun starts, you do not own the os ... your hiring it for one pc (thats the problem) If i could buy windows and it stays my own even if i replace some hardware i would not have a problem with microsoft but any change and your bought windows suddenly becomes illegal thats what i hate.
Especially for me a hardware overclocker and tweaker which am allways changing to faster platforms, is the current idiot license system a absolute pain in the ass since it happens that hardware dies because i went a bit too far in my quest for more speed

Re:do a lot of people really pirate Windows?

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

I can only assume that they are either going to be turning the screws a bit harder with their "anytime upgrade" pitch, which will require keeping the developed world from just having that kid who knows computers install Ultimate, or they are trying to ensure that developing market pirate system-builders find it much harder to pay nothing(it will, of course, still be in their interest to price-discriminate; but there is a big difference between somebody who pays nothing because you can't stop him, and somebody who either pays or goes without, and you get to set the price...)

Re:do a lot of people really pirate Windows?

[DigitaLunatiC]

i mean most computers are bought at retail with real licenses. how many people really pirate windows compared to microsoft's cost to implement this?

I imagine most enthusiasts/gamers don't purchase PCs - they build them. I know I have no real interest in adding another $100+ to my build costs with no hardware improvements.

I've been forever waiting to see what would happen to the software world if game developers released official versions of their games for GNU/Linux (instead of, or in addition to, Windows).

Re:do a lot of people really pirate Windows?

[Anonymous Coward]

Nobody even uses Windows anymore. I heard it's a post-pc world, man.

- posted from starbucks on my ipad

Re:do a lot of people really pirate Windows?

[Anonymous Coward]

The world consists of more then North America and Europe.

Re:do a lot of people really pirate Windows?

[fluffernutter]

I build all my own PCs as well, simply because I like to know what is in there. Don't want to pay top dollar and risk getting a second rate part inside, after all that is how the bundlers make money.

Re:do a lot of people really pirate Windows?

[White Flame]

Places that I can think of where "normal" people pirate:

• Used computers needing a full wipe & reinstall
• Replaced hard drive, your legit reinstall image was on the original's 2nd partition
• Lost your old legit installation media that came with the machine
• Building computers from parts

Of course there's overlap, since piracy is linked to the act of installing the OS, but these aren't all that esoteric.

Re:do a lot of people really pirate Windows?

[Anonymous Coward]

I have not bought windows in quite awhile.

I started way back in the early days of dos. I've paid microsoft thousands of dollars. And in return i got mostly working systems with a shitton of problems and headaches. I spent alot of time cursing them as well.

I figure i've paid my dues. They owe me now. Alot.
And i'm vindictive. I still hate them because i HAVE to deal with microsoft in the workplace.
So when i can i just skip the step of paying them. I mean really. It's one tiny step in a huge chain of bullshit trying to make a microsoft os work properly and as needed.

I'd never have moved from win2k (that i paid for) if i could have. Then xp. Which i didnt pay for. And now its windows 7. If i get a decade out of that. I might call it square with microsoft and start paying them again. Maybe.

But so far the pirate experience is far better than the microsoft experience. MY windows wont tell me im a pirate. Or spend time checking. And i have everything it needs to do what i want it to do.

Here it begins.. the FUD

[recoiledsnake]

Here it begins, the FUD DRM campaign against Windows 8 and a collective group of people getting their panties in a twist.

Remember some gems for Windows 7, can anyone tell what became of them?

Draconian-DRM-Revealed-In-Windows-7
http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/02/16/2259257

Debunked here:
Oh, the humanity: Windows 7's draconian DRM?
  http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2009/02/oh-the-humanity-windows-7s-draconian-drm.ars

Vista was the most fudded one though(DRM etc.) , with a fake columnist making up fake data and benchmarks to play on Slashdot commenters and it did work well.

Sponsored by BoycottNovell?

Re:Here it begins.. the FUD

[mystikkman]

From the summary:

There's also a good possibility that the recently-surfaced fast booting patent could come into play as well. If Microsoft does indeed have designs on using a remote server to push OS code to systems at boot time, that code would be a very clever place to embed activation-related programming. Even if a crack was discovered, it would be neatly undone during a subsequent start-up sequence — similar to the way Microsoft's now-idle Windows Steady State could turn back the clock an entire Widows installation after rebooting."

Who writes this crap? Companies come up with patents all the time. Doesn't mean that they're going to be implemented.
Even Chrome OS doesn't come close to booting from the cloud. And Windows has had updates to the Activation checking code in Windows updates since a long time.
  Works well for baiting Slashdotters though.

Re:Here it begins.. the FUD

[recoiledsnake]

Seriously, most of the comments on the article already seem to indicate that Slashdotters have already fallen for the flame and link bait as if it were the truth, just like in the Windows 7 DRM article. It's almost surreal if it were not so predictable. Flamepait posts drive ad traffic from getting people worked up over nothing.

Re:Here it begins.. the FUD

[UnknowingFool]

Well of course these speculations should be taken as that until MS locks down features. Those articles you link deal with panic over MS enforcing anti-piracy for third parties. However given the history of MS pushing for more anti-piracy features of the OS itself such concerns are not neccesarily FUD. My main concern with that would be the false positives. Having been inconvenienced with calling MS for them to bless my installation of Windows for no apparent reason I can say it's a concern.

Re:Here it begins.. the FUD

[recoiledsnake]

Well of course these speculations should be taken as that until MS locks down features. Those articles you link deal with panic over MS enforcing anti-piracy for third parties. However given the history of MS pushing for more anti-piracy features of the OS itself such concerns are not neccesarily FUD. My main concern with that would be the false positives. Having been inconvenienced with calling MS for them to bless my installation of Windows for no apparent reason I can say it's a concern.

Lets take this from the article:

With the latest Windows 8 build (8064) that has been delivered to Intel, it’s clear that the company is taking strides to make sure that its upcoming OS isn’t quit so easy to pirate. For starters, the generic volume license keys that were so easily exploited during the early days of Windows 7 leaks will no longer be an option for pirates. Product keys also won’t be shipped in the prodkey.txt file included in the build packages. Instead, installers will need to retrieve a unique key from a Microsoft web page.

That was the case for Windows 7 Beta and RC releases as well,with the keys expiring in 1 year. Don't see anything new here, the article does cite any sources except a build to Intel which is obviously a preview build which always required you to get a key from Microsoft web pages to operate.

Re:Here it begins.. the FUD

[mystikkman]

>However given the history of MS pushing for more anti-piracy features of the OS itself such concerns are not neccesarily FUD

Concerns are different from FUD claims. The article takes a patent filing and then extrapolates it to Windows and makes up it's own fears about what Windows *could* be. I don't see how is that a concern and not FUD. Is there any other source for this 'concern' ?

Re:Here it begins.. the FUD

[Truekaiser]

argumentum ad populum
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

That's the fallacy your ars technica link uses to attack the people pointing out bad drm in vista, 7, and now 8. Just because most people will not notice or run into it doesn't make it any better that the os is now designed around the model of preventing the owner of the machine to use the machine how he or she wants to because some media companies are paranoid.

Re:Here it begins.. the FUD

[recoiledsnake]

Just because most people will not notice or run into it doesn't make it any better that the os is now designed around the model of preventing the owner of the machine to use the machine how he or she wants to because some media companies are paranoid.

Okay... nice and well and we have the standard wiki link to fallacies as well, perfect for debating and to get some mod points on Slashdot.

Now tell me how Windows 7 is or was "designed around the model of preventing the owner of the machine to use the machine how he or she wants to because some media companies are paranoid."? Any examples of you or friends or anyone trying to do something that was wrongly prevented by Windows 7 would also help a lot.

Re:Here it begins.. the FUD

[NJRoadfan]

They have yet to close the biggest loophole since the XP days, the OEM activation system. All one needs is a BIOS mod and a certificate and viola, they have an activated and "genuine" copy of Windows.

Re:Here it begins.. the FUD

[hairyfeet]

Hell lets hope Windows 8 continues their "deadly" DRM, as Windows 7 was a hell of a lot easier to pirate then XP! That made it wonderful for us PC repair guys as one of the first things to come out was a "universal" disc, which let you install any version of Windows 7 you wanted. made it butt simple to set up automated installs, just use the person's legit key on it and voila! Instant fully unattended Win 7 installer.

And of course there are the guys cooking up the really cool one offs like the guy who made TinyXP and TinyVista who came out with Tiny7 just as the RTM was coming out. We're talking about a fully loaded Win 7 WITH Aero that runs great on a 1.4GHz with 512Mb of RAM! They really need to hire that guy at MSFT because frankly his builds stomp the shit out of WinFLP and embedded as far as power usage.

Ya wanna know the sad part? they HAD the cure for piracy in the west. For 6 months I saw piracy practically disappear, nobody was pirating Win 7, everybody was buying it legit. What was this miracle? The $50 Win 7 HP upgrade. that thing caused guys I knew which had NEVER owned a legit version of Windows to buy Win 7.

But if there is one thing Ballmer has proved over and over he is a completely worthless CEO and therefor they shitcanned it. Soon after I started seeing Win 7 Ultimate on every other box on Craigslist again, and at flea markets, mom and pop shops, etc. you can always spot the pirates as you'll have a $200 box with a $400 OS on it. They ALWAYS go for the most expensive SKU, always.

If they wanted piracy in the west to end they could have it disappear tomorrow so all I can figure is yet again Ballmer cares more about aping Apple than actually running his own company. that is why I say the Gates borg needs to be replaced with a symbol that shows the reality of MSFT today: A pic of Ballmer in a "I Heart Apple!" beanie with his tongue sticking out. Sadly he is to MSFT what the Pepsi guy was to Apple, only MSFT won't have gates come riding in to save them like Jobs did Apple.

Re:Here it begins.. the FUD

[UnknowingFool]

The most ironic thing about the last Windows installation was where I got the copy of Windows. I might have understood if my copy wasn't shrink wrapped and purchased from a guy selling them out of his van. My copy came from the MS store.

Re:Here it begins.. the FUD

[alexo]

Hell lets hope Windows 8 continues their "deadly" DRM, as Windows 7 was a hell of a lot easier to pirate then XP!

How's that? XP had the VLK, what does 7 have?

Re:Here it begins.. the FUD

[Truekaiser]

1. The protected video and audio path for example. the polling of the hardware to check to see if things are secure. this kind of software behavior is only in software designed around the concept of the user being the 'enemy'.

2. friend and former coworker, wanted to record gaming matches from his xbox360. both windows 7 and the console refused. the recording device was detected as a 'non- trusted piece of hardware' not only did the xbox360 refuse to display anything, but 7 and the recording software refused to even record the blank screen.

3. another friend, one who i have been with a decent while won't switch from xp to 7 because of this and the fact that 7 refuses to display on his still good few year old couple thousand dollar tv because it doesn't consider the connection 'protected'.

Re:Here it begins.. the FUD

[Anonymous Coward]

Activation using generic OEM keys which can't by definition be blacklisted in the future.

Re:Here it begins.. the FUD

[Bucky24]

I think possibly what is meant in the article is that a unique key will have to be retrieved every time. When I tried 7 beta, I used the same key several times for installation. It was also possible to turn back the system clock to keep the key valid.

Re:Here it begins.. the FUD

[interkin3tic]

Here it begins, the FUD DRM campaign against Windows 8 and a collective group of people getting their panties in a twist.

And here comes their knight in shining armor, recoiledsnake, ready to fight the good fight on behalf of defenseless multinational corporations...

I tease, and that's not to imply that we should stand for lies just because the target is a wealthy corporation, but I do think we need to assume the worst when it comes to corporations. I'm assuming windows 8 is going to be windows 7 but with several added layers of stuff to make sure you're running only authorized copies of windows, office, and any other program. I'm assuming it will have more insulation between you and control of your own computer and will put up more resistance to you assuming control over it. I'm assuming this app store will be designed to put money into MS's pockets that would have otherwise gone to smaller, more creative organizations. I'm assuming all of that until MS proves otherwise. One would be a fool to trust any corporation has your interests at heart.

Re:Here it begins.. the FUD

[recoiledsnake]

I think possibly what is meant in the article is that a unique key will have to be retrieved every time. When I tried 7 beta, I used the same key several times for installation. It was also possible to turn back the system clock to keep the key valid.

How is that related to the activation system in the final version as the article and summary are claiming?

Re:Here it begins.. the FUD

[Bucky24]

It's not. It's related to your mentioning that the activation system is similar to windows 7 beta keys.

Re:Here it begins.. the FUD

[smelch]

What are you talking about? I have no problem hooking my xbox up to anything I want, including in to my video capture card running on Windows 7. I have used my windows seven based machine with several of my TVs and never had a problem... Are you sure you aren't doing something wacky?

Re:Here it begins.. the FUD

[recoiledsnake]

1. The protected video and audio path for example. the polling of the hardware to check to see if things are secure. this kind of software behavior is only in software designed around the concept of the user being the 'enemy'.

2. friend and former coworker, wanted to record gaming matches from his xbox360. both windows 7 and the console refused. the recording device was detected as a 'non- trusted piece of hardware' not only did the xbox360 refuse to display anything, but 7 and the recording software refused to even record the blank screen.

Regarding 1. If they want their customers to be able to play Bluray movies, they are legally obligated to implement protection and could be sued for billions otherwise. It's called following the law, if you don't like the law, why should MS take the blame?

  Does OS X or Linux out-of-the-box allow you to play Bluray Discs or DRM'ed movies from Netflix/Amazon or elsewhere without authorization? Same with those OSes, the paths etc are NOT activated if the customers is not playing protected content. People play torrented MKVs of Harry Potter all the time in Windows Media Player without hacking anything in Windows. Why is this a problem? What is the user enabled to do under OS X/Linux that they are unable to do under Windows?

. 2. friend and former coworker, wanted to record gaming matches from his xbox360. both windows 7 and the console refused. the recording device was detected as a 'non- trusted piece of hardware' not only did the xbox360 refuse to display anything, but 7 and the recording software refused to even record the blank screen.

Again, HDCP is part of the federal law and knowingly violating it will result in hundreds of millions of damages. Does OS X or a Linux distro allow him to do that?

3. another friend, one who i have been with a decent while won't switch from xp to 7 because of this and the fact that 7 refuses to display on his still good few year old couple thousand dollar tv because it doesn't consider the connection 'protected'.

Your friend is wrong, Windows 7 will display with full resolution at all times except if your friend is playing DRM'ed content that he bought or borrowed. The content may have a a flag(because it's afraid that someone is recording it) that will decrease the resolution if the TV does not support HDCP.

Linux/OSX/XP will not be able to play the same content at all.

HDCP is mandated by law, lobby to change it instead of spreading FUD about Windows just because you hate MS.

Re:Here it begins.. the FUD

[recoiledsnake]

Wanted to add that if you really want to violate the DMCA and strip the DRM, feel free to get this program and install it on Windows.

http://www.drmconverter.net/remove-bluray-dvd-copy-protection.html

Windows will happily run that program. Wake me up when it refuses to.

You seem to be expecting Windows to crack DRM for you in a fresh install, unlike even Linux or OS X do. Sorry it won't, that's willing infringement of the DMCA and the media companies will have a field day in court proving it easily.

Re:Here it begins.. the FUD

[networkBoy]

Can't fix that.
It'd make too much work for the OEMs...
The number of people that exploit that hole is so small that it is lost in the noise of comp and free copies.
-nB

Re:Here it begins.. the FUD

[Yamioni]

Simple OEM activation.

Re:Here it begins.. the FUD

[Truekaiser]

You see when your dealing with drm such as this it's not a matter of doing something 'wrong' but using a device that the people who make this drm, in this case both Microsoft and the makers of hdcp deem wrong. your probably using a different capture card then my friend, and while it works now. later you will, not if, be in the same boat as him.

Re:Here it begins.. the FUD

[smelch]

Oh, so you mean you're using HDMI out. I use DVI or component to capture.

Re:Here it begins.. the FUD

[hairyfeet]

Trivial OEM keys baby, trivial OEMs. I've just now started to see a few of the keys blacklisted by MSFT, it took them THIS long to do so. While I don't mess with pirated Windows mind you, do you have ANY idea how simple it is to fix when one of those machines are blacklisted? This is how simple: "Run WGA Killer by going clicky clicky, reboot, turn off Windows updates and set WSUS Offline to run instead" and that's it. Hell most of the OEM Win 7 discs floating around out there need NO key at all!

And if you have an old box lying around or a spare partition you really need to try the "Tiny" series, it is bloody brilliant. We aren't talking some NLite/VLite bullshit, this guy tears into the guts of Windows and cuts out the bullshit to make insane gamer versions that have almost no overhead. We are talking WinXP that runs killer on 256Mb of RAM and a 1GHz CPU, same for WinServer 2K3, and for Vista and 7? Hows a fully functional WITH Aero Windows Vista/7 that runs sweet and snappy on a 1.4GHz with 512Mb of RAM sound? And you can imagine if it runs sweet and snappy on gear THAT old how fast it runs on a modern multicore, it is almost like having an SSD upgrade for free!

If anyone at MSFT had a brain they'd hire this guy, because in my experiments at the shop I've tried WinFLP, WinEmbedded, and frankly even stripped to their most useless they don't hold a candle to the Tiny series on resource usage, and the Tiny installs keep nearly all the functionality!

Re:Here it begins.. the FUD

[rtb61]

You know who writes the crap, people who have become used to M$'s PR=B$ marketing machine. Where wild guesses are often more reliable that what is coming out of M$'s advertising machine with regard to what is in and what is not in, the latest OS. This also covers the first three months after release with M$ publicity in full bullshit mode with regards to performance, reliability and stability.

Sorry but when it comes to M$ software releases, you just have to suck it up and 'er' howl at the moon, get it, howl out the moon, gees, boy who cried wolf much. So now with every release you get the worst extrapolations to counter the equally ludicrous marketing and yes, nobody still wants to buy Vista and M$ should be ashamed of itself and offer a free upgrade from Vista to Windows 7 (Vista patched after Uncle Fester's, you know who we are talking about, failed release).

I really don't get why corporate marketdoirds expect equal treatment on Slashdot. Slashdot is about individuals, about people and their opinions and ideas, it is not a bloody marketing channel for marketdroids and when markertdroids become overly persistent pushing their products expect a commensurate pay back. To spell it out for you, people first, corporations last and that includes taking the piss out of them and their products and challenging their marketing exaggerations 'er' lies at every opportunity.

1) scan network requests at boot

[Anonymous Coward]

2) pick out the data
3) do this several times just to see if it is time-based
4) fiddle around with some stuff, reverse engineer the requests and server
5) ????
6) MS buttfrustration increases significantly until a full binary crack is done, at which point they go supernova and consume us all in a fiery explosion of madness.

I'll be catching the next rocket to Alpha Centauri so I can sit and watch with some popcorn.

Re:1) scan network requests at boot

[Anonymous Coward]

"buttfrustration" is my new favorite word. Posting AC due to extreme cowardice.

Re:1) scan network requests at boot

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

Unless the implementation is unbelievably braindead any crack will require modification of the local system: SSL, or any similar cryptographic mechanism, makes spoofing a remote server pretty much impossible(particularly since, unlike the general website case, where incompetent registrars can mess it up, Microsoft can simply use an in-house root CA for this purpose.) You'll have to modify the cryptographic verification parts of the local system to accept a key you control, no matter how perfect your understanding of the network interaction is...

Re:1) scan network requests at boot

[Vegemeister]

Considering we can change anything on the disk, adding a trusted root cert shouldn't be that big a problem.

Re:1) scan network requests at boot

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

Yeah, Windows 8 would pretty much have to stick to running on consoles and/or whatever MS is calling their Palladium/NGSCB/'Trusted Computing' dystopia platform these days if they were serious about avoiding a modification of the local binary.

My point was merely that the old "FooCorp obfuscates their client/server protocol to slow creation of compatible implementation, hackers figure it out anyway" cycle is increasingly obsolete for software (and pretty much any 'appliance' not designed by morons) DRM/lock-in purposes. Obfuscation takes effort, increases the likelihood and trickiness of bugs, and can only slow a competent attacker. SSL or equivalent is comparatively easy, standard, doesn't add too much complexity, and is functionally impossible to forge. Only a client-side defeat of the phone-home mechanism will do, no matter how sane and trivially comprehensible the protocol is.

Exactly! This is the "Post PC Era"

[Jeremiah Cornelius]

Microsoft is clearly doing its part in this, by taking actions to kill-off Windows.

For which effort, I heartily commend them!

+1

[NoSleepDemon]

I feel the same way as you. I personally took up jogging to get away from all the retarded shit going on in the IT world, and although footwear manufacturers over the world are hellbent on selling me THEIR perfect running product, at least with Americans being by and large as lazy as they are, the ads aren't continuously shoved in my face. I can't even get away from reality with gaming anymore, because people's strange ideas of progress and innovation (social this, social that, always online) have crippled that as well. It seems that, the public at large, couldn't care less about something as long as it's really easy to use and gives them instant gratification. It's truly a shame when your hobby, job or passion gets focus fired by the general public, and suddenly every joe shmoe has an idea of how to improve it. I walked passed an HMV today with big signs up proclaiming "EPIC SALE!", I imagined walking in there with a chaingun.

Re:+1

[Anonymous Coward]

Second that. For me it was actually for the best, before I used to spend countless hours in gaming worlds, escaping reality. One day I realized playing most of today games were no fun and felt like a chore(e.g. competitive multilayer ) So now as a hobby, I read technical books back to back, and it has helped a lot, i was able to patch some security holes in my applications, at least until skyrim comes our hahaha

Re:+1

[interkin3tic]

I walked passed an HMV today with big signs up proclaiming "EPIC SALE!", I imagined walking in there with a chaingun.

You must be EPIC STRONG if you can lift a chaingun.

Constant internet connection?

[Twinbee]

Does this mean we'll need to be constantly connected to the internet to keep using Windows?
Yuck? Haiku OS seems more and more tempting each day...

Re:Constant internet connection?

[qxcv]

+1 for a Haiku mention. I haven't played around with it much as of yet, but it looks like it could really blow the competition out of the water on the desktop. Pervasive multithreading? No need for third party widget toolkits? Free and open source? Yes please!

Very True

[SuperKendall]

Even if I were totally ambivalent about running OS X vs. Windows, I'd still prefer OS X simply because I don't have any activation nightmares.

It has led to me to use Crossover on the Mac (WINE variant) over running Windows in a VM for any Windows app I need to tun as well... basically I've had enough pain in my life from activation and want no more of it.

Re:Very True

[Anonymous Coward]

Even if I were totally ambivalent about running OS X vs. Windows, [...]

That word doesn't mean what you think it means.

Re:Very True

[Anonymous Coward]

Isn't the next version of OSX supposed to have something very similar to this though?

Re:Very True

[jo_ham]

Is it? Or is that just baseless rumours?

OS X has been serial number free, encryption free, easy-to-image, and online activation free from the start.

Even the current 10.7 Lion, which is distributed online, is simply an unencrypted disk image with no serial or activation nonsense.

I don;t think Apple cares that much - they realise that it's wasted effort trying to secure the install DVD - they make the money on the hardware.

Re:Very True

[toriver]

Huh? Lion (10.7) is just out and you are starting the rumor mill for the next release? Talk about proactive...

Re:Very True

[Anonymous Coward]

Not to mention, it's still easy to pirate MacOS X (even Lion, the downloaded installer can be copied and used on any qualifying Mac), and Apple doesn't seem to worry about it. In fact, I dare say they are *counting* on it based on Windows' example in the late 1990s.

Windows' overall market share has been slowly dwindling for almost the last 10 years, part of it is due to the fact that they keep using more draconian DRM. Windows Vista and 7 are the slowest-adapted of all the Windows OSs. 7 came out almost 2 years ago and it's JUST NOW surpassing XP for market share.

Among qualifying systems, though (Core 2 Duo chips or higher), I trust Lion is already more widely used than Snow Leopard (if I'm wrong, let me know). My partner and I adopted first day, as did my brother, and my parents followed suit shortly after that. My partner and I also helped out one of our best friends in upgrading. Part of that is because upgrading only costs 1/10th the cost of upgrading to a Win7 that actually does all the stuff MacOS X can (Ultimate, and even then, Lion also includes server software, which 7 Ultimate does not have), another part of that is there is no DRM on the Lion installer. None.

Re:Very True

[DJ Particle]

Ah there it is.... the above is my comment, btw

Re:Very True

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course, the Macintosh as a whole can be viewed as a security dongle...

Isn't this the most dangerous idea possible

[Riceballsan]

Didn't Microsoft once say something along the lines of, it is better to have someone pirate the OS, then to lose them to linux or other competitors?, Stacked with the rapid growth of cloud applications and the age of everything being done in the browser. I am seeing less and less reason to care what OS your system is running. For anything other then some PC games, is there really any motivation to fork over $200 for a windows license?

Re:Isn't this the most dangerous idea possible

[Missing.Matter]

I don't think Microsoft is losing many people to Linux. Their biggest competitors are first themselves, and second Apple.

Re:Isn't this the most dangerous idea possible

[GameboyRMH]

Bill Gates said that back in the early/mid '90s IIRC. Back then Windows copy protection consisted of "Enter the key printed on the box to install. Right key? Thanks, that's all, you'll never deal with the copy protection again!"

Nowadays it's "Well this computer's starting up. Same hardware as last time? Lemme check the serials on each component and the amount of RAM...looks good. No funny business with the system clock? Okay...alright everything's in order, I'll let Microsoft know. See ya next boot, I'll be waiting...*does "eyes on you" gesture*"

Re:Isn't this the most dangerous idea possible

[MightyMartian]

Even the "phone home" activations that have been around since Office 2003 are pretty lame as well. I had an old copy of a system builder OEM version of Vista that I had installed and activated as a VM image on my KVM server a couple of years ago. I had then installed it on a Dell machine I had sitting around before I got a newer machine, and the installer DVD package went in my filing cabinet for about 18 months. Last week I updated an old Dell Inspiron laptop and figured I'd give Vista a try, yanked the installer DVD. When it got to the activation part, it failed, saying I had to call a 1-800 number. So I did, and the first time I did, and it asked "how many computers have you installed this copy of Windows on", and for some reason I had a brainfart and answered "two". Well, I was informed that it would not activate because it did not meet the terms of the license. So I called back the number, went through the automated spiel and when it got to the question again, I said "once", and after a minute the automated system informed me that it was accepted, gave me a new activation key and away I went.

So far as I could tell, the system was in fact designed to do that. Microsoft, while having licensing language forbidding the use of OEM licenses in this way, has been tacitly giving the nod to it since Windows XP. I've seen Office 2003 OEM CDs used on two or three computers. They simply don't give a shit.

Re:Isn't this the most dangerous idea possible

[HuguesT]

In the server market, yes they are.

Re:Isn't this the most dangerous idea possible

[Aggrajag]

I would also like to know how many are "testing" their Technet and MSDN(AA) licenses on their home computers.

Re:Isn't this the most dangerous idea possible

[Riceballsan]

This much is true, currently but they aren't above reason to fear now. Between apple, android etc moving forward, and the lack of incentive to care about what OS a computer is running, 1 bad business decision could lose them everything. They are essentially in the same position they were in during the browser wars. IE an insanely huge lead, no competition eating more then 5% of their market, and best of all half the internet needed IE, even if you liked Netscape or Mozilla (original Mozilla) better, most pages wouldn't load right and half would reject you. Then the web shifted, firefox was released, and pages began setting themselves to work universally regardless of browser, choices existed and people used them. We are hitting that point with the OS market now, more and more software is moving to web based, meaning you can edit the file in google docs on your windows desktop, your linux desktop, your IPad, or whatever you feel like using. When microsoft loses it's you can switch but your stuff won't work form of lock in, their market-share plummets fast. It won't necessarily be to linux, but it could be to anyone, even chromeOS or a new variant of android, can be a significant threat right now.

Re:Isn't this the most dangerous idea possible

[Anonymous Coward]

Didn't Microsoft once say something along the lines of, it is better to have someone pirate the OS, then to lose them to linux or other competitors?, Stacked with the rapid growth of cloud applications and the age of everything being done in the browser. I am seeing less and less reason to care what OS your system is running. For anything other then some PC games, is there really any motivation to fork over $200 for a windows license?

No..I dumped Windows for Linux years ago and with each new release Windows just does more and more things that disturb me.

Windows 8?

[tycoex]

Does anyone even care about Windows 8?

Windows 7 seems like a very solid OS. While I understand the reasons to upgrade from XP (DX11, old security) and from Vista (vista sucked) has Microsoft shown anything at all that would make someone want to upgrade from Windows 7? Many people still haven't made the jump from XP to 7 yet.

I will be perfectly happy with Windows 7 for at least another year or two. There's nothing that Windows 8 could give me that I need. Maybe when DX12 comes out?

Re:Windows 8?

[0123456]

Maybe when DX12 comes out?

Surely you mean 'when DX12 games come out'? Which will be about five years after 50% of new PCs have DX12; even today most games seem to be DX9 possibly with a DX10 renderer option, which is primarily because Microsoft refused to port DX10 to XP.

Re:Windows 8?

[Missing.Matter]

It's funny how you hear the same comments ever 3 years or so when MS releases a new OS.

Re:Windows 8?

[Anonymous Coward]

What about Windows file search capability? The search functionality is so elementary and buggy that it's almost completely worthless. Something tells me this will not be fixed or improved in Windows8.

Re:Windows 8?

[0123456]

It's funny how you hear the same comments ever 3 years or so when MS releases a new OS.

Yeah, I remember all those comments in 2004 when Microsoft released the replacement for XP.

The simple fact is that no-one but Microsoft thinks that installing a new version of Windows every three years makes sense. Windows 8 is a spectacularly dumb idea that merely fractures their OS lineup even further when people have barely even moved to Windows 7 yet.

People complain about numerous Linux distributions, but once Windows 8 comes out there'll be something like thirty different versions of Windows to deal with even if XP usage may be down in the single digit percentages by that point.

Re:Windows 8?

[GameboyRMH]

Microsoft will make you care, by withholding DX12 and perhaps later IE releases, the same thing they did when Vista was first released.

Re:Windows 8?

[0123456]

Microsoft will make you care, by withholding DX12 and perhaps later IE releases, the same thing they did when Vista was first released.

And, as I pointed out above, more than four years after Vista was released the majority of games are still DX9 because that's the only way to support all significant versions of Windows; DX11 has been out for some time but only a few games even seem to have optional DX10 renderers. On that basis, by the time we start to see many DX12 games, Windows 9 will be out with DX13.

BTW, whatever happened to that AGW thing? It was all big in the news a few years ago but I never seem to hear anything about it anymore.

Re:Windows 8?

[GameboyRMH]

A nearly $2/gallon drop in the price of gas changes a lot of things...

Re:Windows 8?

[tycoex]

Maybe because no one actually needs a new OS every 3 years.

It seems that skipping every other OS is the best policy anyways...

Win98 = good, ME = bad
XP = good, Vista = bad
Win7 = good, Win8 = bad?

Re:Windows 8?

[Missing.Matter]

I heard the same things said about Wind98, 2000, XP, and Windows7. Don't you remember the whole "Windows 7 is just Vista with a new skin?" And Vista was just XP with a new skin. And before that XP was Windows 2000 with a new skin. Now Windows 8 is just Windows 7 with a new skin. You don't know it, but we're currently using windows 3.1, just with a different skin. Why bother upgrading?

Re:Windows 8?

[Billly Gates]

Most gamers have left Windows XP a long time ago. What the statistics do not tell you is that most XP users are in China which has between 1/3 to 1/2 of all computers. In the US barely 1 out of 4 people still use Windows XP. It maybe number 2 but Vista and 7 combined almost equals 2/3s with the mac taking the rest.

I have noticed games like World of Warcraft seem slower with the directX 11 api than the Direct 9 which is odd and it shows my ati 5750 has some crappy drivers. Or Directx 9 is so good and less buggy that game makers target it. Directx 11 theoretically should be faster than DirectX 9.

Re:Windows 8?

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem is you will be forced too - All MS need to do is what they have done before: Introduce a new and incompatible driver model and deny certification for the old; You'll be forced to upgrade within a few years.

I've been hanging onto my Windows '98 and Windows 2000 machines because I know if I upgrade the hardware I will be forced to use XP due to the lack of compatible drivers.

My Linux systems have more up to date hardware, but Linux has always been on the trailing edge of hardware support so it will never be cutting edge.

I refused to upgrade to XP because I was already boycotting anything that needed third-party (e.g. on-line) activated.

Many people said similar things, but caved almost instantly - It is your fault that we are in this situation.

All of you who actually bought XP, who use Steam, who use anything that uses on-line activation - This is all your fault so you have to live with it.

Until more people start branching off and refuse to be led by the nose, these things will get worse and worse.

Re:Windows 8?

[Mashiki]

Right. And because there's no way to make DX11 work on XP and Vista without even trying. Oh wait! Not only is there, but it works just fine. And the same with the later releases of IE(if you care about it). To me the entire Windows8 bit will probably be yet another vista moment, or it will be a WinME moment. People will more than likely flat out refuse to buy it, unless it's shoved down their throat. Then they'll simply retrograde install.

Besides Win7 hasn't even reached 50% market penetration for gaming yet. It's close, but not close enough. XP still holds that crown.

Re:Windows 8?

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows 8 is nice. It has more ribbon interfaces, a better task manager, and native ISO mounting. That sure is nice not to need to rely on Daemon Tools anymore. The Tablet like interface isn't in the leaked builds yet, but it will be a nice option. It sure would be nice to have your primarily desktop or laptop, be running the same OS as your tablet. If Windows 8 tablets turn out to be any good, (yes, I know that is a big IF), then pairing it with a windows 8 PC would allow fore better integration options. It would be wonderful if you could control your desktop with a tablet, and use your tablet as an extra screen for your desktop, stuff like that. You have something running on your PC Desktop that you want to show your coworker/boss, instead of making them walk over to your computer, you just bring them your tablet, which can show you your desktop. If a 10" screen isn't big enough, you can wirelessly send the signal to a TV or monitor in their office. I don't know if they are actually planning on doing features like that, but you would think it would be obvious. Tablets need to become productivity tools, not just toys.

Re:Windows 8?

[Anonymous Coward]

True, Win8 seems to be like a Windows98 Plus package. W8 seems to be Win7 plus a MediaCenter-ish fullscreen web-pages junk.

Re:Windows 8?

[Anonymous Coward]

I could take or leave DX11, all the games I play look better and are more stable with DX9 anyway. I upgraded to 7 for the SSD support. Now, if the rumors of MS's new filesystem are true, I might have a reason to upgrade to 8 to improve SSD performance further but I doubt it.

Re:Windows 8?

[TheTyrannyOfForcedRe]

Microsoft will make you care, by withholding DX12 and perhaps later IE releases, the same thing they did when Vista was first released.

No one cares about DX11 today. Why would they care about DX12 any time soon? Most games are console ports. Until the a new round of consoles come out with DX12 no one cares.

IE? Seriously? No one cares about IE.

Outside of the MS fanclub the Windows 8 release will be a big yawn.

As a Linux user...

[bmo]

I'm OK with this.

The sooner the theft of Microsoft products ends the better. Turn all the knobs to 11, Mr. Ballmer. The sound of gnashing teeth will be as sweet as Beethoven's Pastoral symphony.

--
BMO

Re:As a Linux user...

[Anonymous Coward]

Says the delusional guy who "signs" his posts with a fake name.

Re:As a Linux user...

[Anonymous Coward]

I totally agree with that. If Microsoft succeeds one of three things will happen:

• Pirates stick with older Windows versions
• Pirates stop pirating and actually pay for Windows
• Pirates start using another operating system (most likely one that comes for free, so they wouldn't be pirating it).

It seems unlikely that they would start paying, especially since the antipiracy measures are guaranteed to negatively impact paying customers one way or another. Having these people stick with older Windows versions or start using another operating system is not in Microsoft's interest either, as many paying customers are going to follow suit.

Microsoft is vulnerable, and they ought to know it. If a move away from Windows gains momentum it could quickly get too powerful for Microsoft to be able to stop it again.

If a large fraction of the market decides to skip a version of Windows the lost earnings won't hurt Microsoft all that much. If a large fraction of the market instead decided to go from one version of Windows to another operating system, then the lost earnings would be about the same, but it may very well hurt Microsoft much more as the larger the number of people moving away from Windows is, the harder it will be to convince any of them to go back.

The lack of interoperability between Windows and other systems is a significant part of the reason people choose Windows, simply because they need interoperability with Windows. But if enough people had moved away from Windows, the same argument would keep them from moving back to Windows.

Re:As a Linux user...

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.techrepublic.com/article/microsofts-product-activation-will-drive-people-to-the-dark-side/1041136

It's always 2001 in freetardia.

Re:As a Linux user...

[chris_7d0h]

I don't know why you would care as a linux user.
You do realize don't you, that when average Joe & Jane get fed up with Microsoft, they tend to move to the other platform with a usable desktop, the walled Apple garden and not Linux?

Corporate Intranets

[warrior389]

That sounds great for corporate intranets. More security features that make it hard for paying people to get their work done.

Re:Corporate Intranets

[White Flame]

I suspect there will be a quite expensive license to enable offline use for just such purposes... and will promptly be the source for pirated copies.

Either that, or there will be a separate license server sold to corporates to locally validate the OSes... and that server will be pirated.

A strong case for migrating from Windows

[wreakyhavoc]

I already feel a strong case for moving from Windows. The only things that have been holding me back are closed audio hardware (Digidesign) and Netflix.

When I get a new Linux compatible audio interface I guess Netflix can go screw.

Anyone have suggestions for subscription based streaming movie services that are Linux compatible?

Re:A strong case for migrating from Windows

[Shompol]

Amazon.com, I am also subscribed to Hulu. Netflix does not support Linux for political reasons (CEO is on board at Microsoft), but I do not support Netflix because it cannot run on my HTPC :P

Re:A strong case for migrating from Windows

[Anonymous Coward]

http://liliputing.com/2011/08/netflix-video-streaming-for-linux-on-the-way.html

Re:A strong case for migrating from Windows

[monkyyy]

hmmmm automated torrenting, or wine; im sure someone got a way to get netflicks to work w/ linux that will work perfectly by now

anyway whats wrong w/ the audio?

anyway theres a thing about linux, the more people use it the better it gets in every area (while win/mac only get better for writing corporate software), if this story is true alot more people will be getting it, and im sure someone will fix ur prob

my idea

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm anon and not using windows 8, well that was totally my idea.

Wow!

[drgould]

It's like Microsoft wants 2012 to be the year of Linux on the desktop.

Take a lesson from Mac OS X

[adisakp]

Apple dropped the price of OS updates from $129.99 to $29.99. Piracy for OS updates dropped significantly and they actually make more money at the lower price point. Plus since more machines are running the latest version of the OS, they have less problems with old OS issues.

Re:Take a lesson from Mac OS X

[adisakp]

To be honest, if Windows was $29.99 instead of closer to $200, they probably wouldn't even need DRM and they'd still have very little piracy.

Re:Take a lesson from Mac OS X

[Killer Orca]

Apple dropped the price of OS updates from $129.99 to $29.99. Piracy for OS updates dropped significantly and they actually make more money at the lower price point. Plus since more machines are running the latest version of the OS, they have less problems with old OS issues.

Apple can do this because their software is tied directly to the hardware, MS is solely a software company, realm of computers anyways. Office and Windows are currently the most profitable divisions of the company http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2011/04/microsoft-beats-estimates-but-not-apple-in-third-quarter-earnings.ars I'm sure they would sell more upgrades at a lower price but the question to answer is: "What price point nets them the most money?"

Re:Take a lesson from Mac OS X

[recoiledsnake]

They wouldn't even need the company anymore... it will be shutdown.

Apple makes huge money on the hardware and selling a few extra gigs of RAM or hard drive space at 500% markup. OS X updates are just cream on top. MS has no such luxury. OS X pirates have already paid the Apple tax, they could care less.

Re:Take a lesson from Mac OS X

[Anonymous Coward]

that's not really true though. i've pirated windows for years, but i'd be happy to pay for it if it were $30. it's always been an os that i've never liked but have tolerated because it's useful for games and whatnot. so i'm not going to shell out several hundred bucks because it's not worth that much to me (i'm aware of the moral arguments against this, oh well). it *is* worth $30 to me, though.

i suspect there are lots more people like me.

Re:Take a lesson from Mac OS X

[quacking duck]

Microsoft certainly has that luxury. They only charge OEM manufacturers $50 on a $1000 PC. As of late 2009, 80% of Windows license revenue came from OEM. That's about $2 BILLION in OEM sales alone.

Microsoft is in no danger if they dropped Windows license prices further. Hell, they could afford to give away end-user licenses for free if they wanted to (in reality the OEMs and Microsoft's shareholders would scream bloody murder).

Re:Take a lesson from Mac OS X

[bkmoore]

...OS X pirates have already paid the Apple tax, they could care less.

Unless they're running on a Hackintosh.

Re:Take a lesson from Mac OS X

[xiando]

Apple makes huge money on the hardware and selling a few extra gigs of RAM or hard drive space at 500% markup. OS X updates are just cream on top. MS has no such luxury.

Apple is a hardware company, Microsoft is also sort-of by proxy. They don't sell hardware directly for some reason, but you basically can't buy a pre-built computer or laptop without being forced a Windows copy up your ass. I don't think Microsoft even cares that much about their end-user Windows sales. They are about how many hardware vendors force people to use their products. Therefore.. The price _will_ start falling from about $50 to $10 soon. Not because a larger portion of laptops have begun to come with Ubuntu or some other GNU+Linux flavor, this has not and will not happen. But tablets.. are rapidly gaining market share and Android and Apple's already taken that market. Windows got stuck on the train station after the train left. Microsoft doesn't have much alternative to basically giving away Windows if they want Windows to have a piece of the tablet pie. And Android / "Google OS" for laptops and desktop PCs will happen. This is why I think the price of a Windows "license" will drop along with Microsofts profits.

Re:Take a lesson from Mac OS X

[White Flame]

Microsoft sells Office. Lots and lots of expensive, corporatastic Office. And a whole ton of other products that the home user really doesn't ever bother with. They could float their OS cheap. Nobody bothers pirating the big corporate packages anyway, because there's little use for them outside the legitimate deep-pocket places.

Re:Take a lesson from Mac OS X

[mgblst]

Bullshit, there is no proof of that, Apple have never released the numbers. And anyway, Apple make most of their money from hardware.

Re:Take a lesson from Mac OS X

[DJ Particle]

You're comparing the wrong version of Windows.

When Apple put out Snow Leopard, they made a big deal out of the fact that there was only one edition of it that could do maximum ability for a home system. With Lion, they upped the ante by bundling in the SERVER software as well! And despite popular belief, it can also serve as a full install version by simply copying the .iso onto a DVD or thumb drive (I know from experience. My partner and I have done this. We like to have a tangible media installer in case of catastrophic disk failure).

Even Windows 7 Ultimate ($319 for a full install version last I saw) can't boast included server software. They still have WinServer 2008 for that, for far more money.

Re:Take a lesson from Mac OS X

[DJ Particle]

At some point, there is the greed factor too. I can see DRMing Office, hell, even Apple DRMs iWork (but not iLife, interestingly enough, probably because iLife is supposed to be included on every Mac now by default, like MacOS X). The question MS should be asking is: "how low can we sell Windows for and still make enough money to survive comfortably"? instead of worrying about the bottom line and nothing more. At this rate, they will DRM and price themselves out of the OS market.

Re:Take a lesson from Mac OS X

[DJ Particle]

Oh, and one more thing....

MS's greatest profits came during the time Windows was being rampantly pirated (Win3.1 through XPsp2). You can't argue that.

Notice all the mega-draconian DRM for Windows came after Gates left, and their profits started dwindling. Gates apparently know what he was doing. Ballmer does not.

Not a Dev why bother with 8?

[koan]

XP lasted me over 10 years, I skipped Vista and now I expect that Windows 7 will last another 10 (at least for personal use) so why would anyone bother with WIn8? and all I see in OS X Lion is a features upgrade for $30 so my Mac's will stay at Snow.

Side note: For those of you that think you need M$ online to get your OS working you don't.

When people come to me to ask what they should buy for a computer, I ask them "What do you want to do?" and with out fail the answer is web surfing, social media, email, video watching (and sometimes editing) and photos, all of these task could get by just fine on XP, (or Linux if they seem smarter than the average gnat) and any modern computer hardware and certainly none of them need a pricey Mac.

Apple drives product purchases thru design and excellent marketing, my opinion of M$ is that they don't know what they are doing, while some of M$'s products show promise the way the implement the product or the pricing makes it unattractive, but in the end the consumer seems to buy the shiniest object that bounces the most, and that behavior in a nut shell is what drives the whole fiasco.

Re:Exactly! This is the "Post PC Era"

[click2005]

I think its more about A-la Carte software.

You buy Windows Basic then pay for your DLC/Extras. A few extra $$ for Media Centre or even Dolby support (now its not included).
Office can have clip-art packs, exporting to older formats,
Photoshop could drop its price then charge for every little add-on, file format or whatever.

Windows: used only when I have to...

[paulsnx2]

The only reason I kept Windows 7 on my laptop (which came with Windows like most laptops still do) was because I need it for work (I work with dinosaurs). I dual boot to Linux, and have had the opportunity to test performance on both systems. Linux performs most Java based tasks 30 percent faster. Linux: Free, Free upgrades, large, knowledgeable community, hosts of applications. Windows; $$$, Free updates, but $$$ to upgrade; Large *user* community, but very, very few know the system; hosts of paid and free applications, but the best free applications are ports from Linux. Why would I pay for Windows 8? or Windows anything else?

Re:Windows: used only when I have to...

[oheso]

But dinosaurs run on Unix! Didn't you watch Jurassic Park?

Re:Windows: used only when I have to...

[DJ Particle]

Exactly. To be fair though, if Windows was priced like MacOS X ($30 for Ultimate with bundled Server with no DRM), then Linux' aspirations would go up in smoke. Think about it. How many Macs do you know are running Linux? The only ones I know that are are doing it in dual-boot. I know no one who runs Linux on a Mac as the sole OS.

Why pirate or buy?

[Anonymous Coward]

I've gotten every copy of MS' OS for free before they came out officially since XP. They always do a big push and PR move to give out free copies of the mid tier(or equivilent feature filled) edition of the new release. Theres really no reason to pirate it when they do handouts so freely. Unless you miss the handout.

I don't want to switch to a Mac or Linux, but....

[BLToday]

I don't want to switch to a Mac or Linux, but if this goes through I might just have to. MSFT is killing whatever reasons I have for staying with Windows. They did the quarter-assed attempt with Games for Windows and Games for Windows Marketplace, if it was half-assed I wouldn't be complaining. All those "Genuine Advantage" crap, I've had Thinkpads where WGA said the serial was invalid then I have to call up MSFT and go through the 45 minutes of interrogation before they gave me an activation code.

I really don't want to go to Mac OS X, but it does have Steam.

Deja Vu

[mystikkman]

From the article you linked, some choice comments:

A DRM ban clause should be added as a constitut (Score:4, Insightful)
by hairyfeet (841228) Friend on Tuesday February 17 2009, @12:54AM (#26882807) Journal

I been saying it and saying it that the DRM in Win7 hadn't been turned on and that is why they are getting good performance out of it now. Vista Beta 1 ran great for me too, but that was the pre DRM version. All of this DRM crap has to monitor you to keep "criminals" like the owner of the PC from doing as they like 24/7/365. All of that monitoring takes up CPU and RAM that could have been used for your stuff.

Mark my words, what we are seeing here is the tiniest tip of the turd iceberg that is Win7, AKA Vista the second edition. It will go down in flames as folks find out it is a big pile of stink just like Vista. That is why just yesterday I had a customer literally throw money at me saying "make this %^&^&$ POS Vista go away! I don't want to see this thing again until XP is on it!". So mark my words, Linux guys. Be getting your A games ready. Be doing everything you can to fix the little irritants like Winprinters because when Vista7 goes down in flames you are going to have a LOT of POed folks looking for a new direction. And Apple is just too damned expensive for John Q. Average. So this is your shot, make it count. I doubt seriously after Win7 goes down in flames that Ballmer will have a job and the next guy they bring in will probably be one of the MS Office guys and he will go back to dull and boring business OSes(Oh,Lord,please let it be so!) so you guys probably won't get a third at bat.

  I for one would like some healthy competition to make the marketplace more fair so don't miss your shot,make it count. Because a moron as stupid as Ballmer only comes around once in a lifetime and you don't want to miss it.

How did that work out for you, hairyfeet? Care to tell us?

Also, a bunch of comments that people are going to stick to XP or to Ubuntu because of the draconian DRM in Windows 7.

Expect more of the same (sticking with Windows 7 till eternity!) and the 'sky is falling' comments in this article below too. Meanwhile Windows 8 gets released and promptly cracked and sells record numbers like Windows 7 did and MS continues to make record profits.

How come a otherwise intelligent and skeptical bunch of geeks suddenly lose their cool and get all hot worked up over nothing over 'M$' mystifies me. It would be hilarious to an outside observer if it weren't sad.

Re:Deja Vu

[Billly Gates]

I normally have respect for haiyfeet as his comments contribute a lot and he knows what he is talking about.

In terms of DRM ...
IN actually, I find a lot more pirated versions of Windows XP than Windows 7 on a popular torrent site. The windows 7 ones were hackjobs taht required a special bootloader from some guy (seperate download) and with the hacks you get a Windows 7 OS but you can't use Windows update for patch 2334. Some give error messages a lot and so on.

Maybe there is a perfect pirated Windows 7 professional edition out there, but after reading this I decided to stick with Windows 7 home premium with these hassles. Windows XP has been hacked awhile back.

I have not seen a hacked version of Office 2010 either that worked for more than a week or two. Microsoft has got it down well with its DRM. I hate the DRM and I think Microsoft are idiots in their pricing scheme to the Asian world but it is their choice to be stupid. You need to pay if you use their products. Thank god for GoogleDocs and LibreOffice.

Re:Deja Vu

[mystikkman]

I fail to understand your point. Are you against DRM because it's preventing you from pirating software as you seem to be trying to do with Windows and Office? If so that's pathetic. Maybe you'd like to use GPL software as if it were BSD too after stripping off the GPL headers too?

The original Vista DRM complaint seemed related to media playback.

Re:Deja Vu

[mcneely.mike]

i am betting that if computers didnt come pre-loaded with windows, a lot of people would be willing to switch to something else... that is where microsoft has its advantage: it comes pre-loaded, all they have to do is turn it on. it screws up? just hit the F1 key or whatever and re-install. if everyone that had to buy a computer had to install it themselves, a lot of people would gak and find something simpler, and it would have started with the install for that mess that is XP.

Re:Deja Vu

[gorzek]

I have yet to see a hairyfeet post that wasn't hysterical ranting with almost no basis in reality.

Re:Deja Vu

[jakykong]

My problem with DRM is not that I'm a pirate -- I'm not. I try whenever possible to abide by copyright law. But it DRM legitimately gets in the way of getting things done.

Consider, a few days ago, my VirtualBox drive with windows XP died (primarily human error, admittedly.). Restoring to a previous point didn't fix it, so I had to reinstall. But -- Oh Noes! -- I had used my product key too many times. Even if they don't give a limit, there clearly is one -- the same key stopped working. (For the record: I purchased this copy of XP.)

I had to turn to an activation hack to get my legally purchased, still functional, still useful software running. Microsoft, of course, won't restore my key.

This is why I steadfastly avoid any and all DRM-crippled software whenever and wherever I can. The End-Of-Life from the company's standpoint is likely to be long before I think the product is dead.

Re:Deja Vu

[Anonymous Coward]

I can assure you that there are perfectly DRM free versions of Win7 out there to be had. Just like there is of even the worst Ubisoft games.

Now if Win8 will be used that much is a whole other question. MS has a track record of good/bad/good/bad OS releases. (98 good, ME bad, XP good, Vista bad)

Re:Deja Vu

[Anonymous Coward]

In terms of DRM ... IN actually, I find a lot more pirated versions of Windows XP than Windows 7 on a popular torrent site. The windows 7 ones were hackjobs taht required a special bootloader from some guy (seperate download) and with the hacks you get a Windows 7 OS but you can't use Windows update for patch 2334. Some give error messages a lot and so on.

You might want to look again; the situation's changed a bit since 2009. Just search on TPB, order by number of seeds, and it's near the top of the list - all editions, pre-patched with SP1, crack included, with fully working Windows Update.

Re:Deja Vu

[Anonymous Coward]

Ya no kidding. Even silly clowns can manage assets better. ASSets is what they know best.

Re:Deja Vu

[unencode200x]

For future reference, assuming a legitimate copy of Windows XP when you go to activate chose the phone option, call in, give the ID displayed on the screen and it will automatically give you a new activation ID. If it doesn't it you just have to answer that this is the only computer this copy of Windows is installed on and you will be given a new ID. It takes like a minute. A PITA for sure, but I don't think it's draconian.

Re:Deja Vu

[jakykong]

I planned on giving it another go in a while, but I tried the phone option, it told me the key wasn't usable with no details, and provided no further options. I suppose this shows how often I deal with windows :).

Piracy != Privacy

[jcaldwel]

Anyone else read this as "Windows 8 To Fight Privacy With the Cloud". I need more coffee!

Re:Piracy != Privacy

[sgt scrub]

The intent might be what was written but will more than likely end up being what you thought your read. Lay off the coffee. It keeps you from being psychic.

Year of the Linux Desktop / Laptop!

[Anonymous Coward]

When it is impossible to pirate Windows (or it simply becomes too much trouble) it will finally be the year of the Linux Desktop / Laptop!

Ubuntu will work as long as HW mfrs cooperate

[tepples]

Ubuntu works for me, and it'll continue to work as long as makers of desktop and laptop PCs for home and small business cooperate with the developers of Linux and X11. It'll stop working if hardware manufacturers find it more profitable to take bribes from Microsoft not to make available the drivers needed for an enjoyable desktop Linux experience than to cooperate with the GNU/Linux community.

Shop floor systems

[Anonymous Coward]

Move to Linux.

Windows 8 has no future for C and embedded box systems.

Ever seen a MINING machine or DRILLING machine or whatnot connected to the internet?

Windows has NO FUTURE for industry automation and shop floor systems.

C is used heavy, MS is removing C support and only supporting C++ and DirectUI (via COM) and .net languaes and your systems MUST be internet facing.

WTF?

Adopt LINUX OR your business dies in the embedded systems with Microsoft.

Re:Shop floor systems

[qxcv]

Erm, isn't C a subset of C++ (which would logically make the C standard library a part of C++)? Do you actually have any evidence that 1) C is actually used heavily for application development on Winbloze and 2) that M$ are (somehow) removing C support (and thereby deprecating huge chunks of their own code)?

Show them how to use Google

[tepples]

I've been getting funny looks whenever I say 'Just fucking google it!' or 'Read the fucking manual!'

Part of it might have something to do with how they view your attitude. Drop the "fucking" and they'll drop the funny looks. Drop some real knowledge on them, show them how to get the most out of Google and the included manuals, and they'll drop their jaws.

ancestors

Did you mean descendants ?

put even part of your data or software in the cloud and you'll be at the whims of a faceless corporation to access it.

Not if the software you put in the cloud is free software.

console gamers aren't even allowed to experiment with homebrew

I take it you think Xbox Live Indie Games doesn't count for some reason.

Cool.

[sgt scrub]

I was worried there was going to be a version of Windows that wasn't free.

Get used to supporting XP and IE 6

[Billly Gates]

With these gimicks the Chinese are going to keep WindowsXP for a long time and refuse to upgrade. Windows is very expensive to most of the world and seriously, adjusted for inflation would you pay $1500 for the priveledge of running Windows?

With Gnome 3 being useless there is simply no option for Linux

Re:Get used to supporting XP and IE 6

[demonbug]

Adjusted for inflation? What, are we going to have to pay $140 in 1972 dollars for the next version of Windows or something?

Driving me back to the high seas

[Anonymous Coward]

It's weird how things work....

I pirated windows xp because it came out when I was simply too young to afford it. I bought windows 7 because I felt it was really worth the money.

I'd be willing to pay for Windows 8 but not if it needs these external connections to work properly. I'll just stick with 7 or pirate 8 if it's that much better.

Re:Gawd - There's a cost involved

[kawabago]

This will enable Microsoft's dream of rented software. You pay every time you use their software. Since Android is free, this is going to flop in the market. No one will want to pay Microsoft when they can use open source for free.

more bad decisions

[conark]

i think the cloud is great for business computing where reliability is key. but i heavily dislike the cloud for personal computing. personal to me means private and means that there's a chance i might not be connected to utilize the software i need. fortunately, i moved away from Windows ages ago, minus some gaming. Apple/Mac does a reasonable job for the games that I prefer so the only thing left in using Windows for me is just testing IE. i can't see any good coming out of this decision by Microsoft.

Re:more bad decisions

[babywhiz]

Get your cloud off my lawn. It isn't the least bit reliable if that cord outside my window happens to come down when the ice storm hits. :)

lol @ Microsoft

[Charliemopps]

You spent how many millions on your anti-piracy tactics and we all know it'll be cracked within a month of release.

What happens when my computer doesn't have an internet connection? Are you going to drop the ENTIRE laptop market? No... You're going to have to account for that, and that will be exploited.

The ONLY way to fight piracy is to lower your prices. Sell windows for $30 a box (probably what you're selling it to Dell for anyway) and it wont be worth anyone's time to pirate.

Re:lol @ Microsoft

[oakgrove]

If they lower the price on boxed copies of Windows, what stick will they be able to use on the OEM's to keep them in line?

Fighting piracy, the stupid way

[Ractive]

Instead of going through all this, they should probably revisit their pricing/licensing scheme, piracy is nor such a big problem in developed countries with high income rates, it tends to be very common (meaning ubiquitous) in third world countries, where they sell Win7 for USD$ 250- 300 which is a huge portion of the yearly income, and also they have no upgrading licenses.
They should get real and offer licenses to people at prices in line with their country's per capita income, it'd be easier and more efective than forcing legitimete users to go through annoying and sometimes crippling processes.

Ditto.

[antdude]

I feel the same way. Hence, why I stop playing computer games, upgrading softwares and hardwares, etc. I still use old stuff like analog bone conduction hearing aids, a VCR, a 20" CRT TV from 1996, Casio Data Bank 150 calculator watch, don't own a cell/smart phone, etc. And yet, I am over 35 years old. I feel like a grumpy old man already! Get off my lawn, kids. :/

Goodluck! (Really)

[Tim12s]

One day someone will hack windows update, replace the windows update code... and then we're all fked.

I can see this going horribly wrong when people figure out how to hack your router, inject code during your boot sequence by redirecting the windows destined boot request. Oh... and blueray got hacked, dont say you couldnt crack the proposed encryption mechanism.

This is a bullshit story

[brainzach]

I don't doubt they will make it harder to pirate and annoy users, but there is no way that Microsoft will require an Internet connection to load the OS. Microsoft might be stupid, but they aren't that stupid. This is just speculation based off one patent and FUD.

Never heard of a firewall and virtual machine?

[BlueCoder]

It would be trivial to filter internet connections to and from Microsoft. Just cache everything that existed before. Use a virtual machine to mirror your machine but doesn't save to the boot up hard disk. Just check the virtual boot up for success and cache the results for the next real boot up. To everyone it would look similar to the safe mode mechanism and could function automatically.

But to me that's too much work. Windows is dead. I can run old applications in virtual machines easily enough. Where are the applications that require windows 7? Maybe a few animation suites. For the everyday man it's only needed for games. I am a PC gamer but the days of PC gaming are numbered. At HD resolutions from consoles and sound coming through your home stereo it's to the point where the PC version is practically irrelevant. At this point in the game If apple wanted they could branch out to the generic PC platform with OSX or maybe OS-11 or OS-YZ. They could easily snatch up what remains of the desktop app market if not bring it back alive.

NVidia and ATI are the companies that are keeping Windows alive at this point and I can easily see them and the game industry roll their own DRM Gaming Linux that boots alongside whatever OS you normally use. Microsoft will continue to develop DirectX since it's used on the XBox. DirectX helps give those companies feedback on how to improve their hardware.

It'll bite them in the end...

[TemporalBeing]

...since not everyone will always have an Internet service available that could reach them to verify or get the listing.

I just converted my work laptop to Linux, but needed to keep Windows around for a few tasks - like compiling Windows versions of one program I am working on. Figured I would push it to VMware - well, got the disk image into VMware and then it wouldn't let me do anything other than re-activate the licenses, but it couldn't do that b/c it didn't have the drivers for the VMware emulated NIC that would get installed as soon as I could login and load the vmware tools ISO. It's not like getting a new license key was an issue (I had one from MSDN that I could use), but I couldn't get it to do anything let alone be able to verify it - chicken vs. egg problem. (Yeah, I know, I could call up read in a 40+ digit number, enter in a 40+ digit number and be done with it...but something tells me that reading and entering two separate 40+ digit numbers would still be problematic...)

on line to boot?

[Joe_Dragon]

Microsoft web page will not work in all enterprise setups and for laptop users.And needing to be on line to boot? what about 3g / 4g data card uses? people who need a wifi pass word?

Re:Exactly! This is the "Post PC Era"

[lgw]

Windows dominates desktop PCs, but the era of the PC is ending, and Windows will go the way of NetWare unless Microsoft figures something out. Windows 8 is very tablet oriented, but is that really going to help much? The only thing Windows really has going for it these days is that most people use it, and Winows 8 is going to have to compete on its merits in the tablet world. But I wouldn't write them off: Kinect and Surface show that MS isn't quite out of ideas yet, interface-wise.

As the corporate world starts making its slow shift to ARM-based boot-from-firmware thin clients, that's really going to put the squeeze on MS's client OS business.

Good News

[Anonymous Coward]

Linux will be much more attractive to casual pirates after Windows is not free anymore.

Re:Gawd - There's a cost involved

[Bucky24]

Windows is very entrenched. I think a lot of people would actually pay rather than go to what is still largely considered a cell phone OS for their desktops.

So Internet connection required to boot?

[xiando]

There are still situations where I boot my computer without it being connected to the great Internet. You bring your laptop to your cabin in the woods and now you can't download the boot sequence and you're stuck. Sounds... great. This will also apply to those Windows phones too, poor Nokia, which may be great for cell phone providers since they get extra data traffic which they can overcharge for. This sounds ... stupid. I am glad I doesn't affect me as I've been using GNU+Linux variants for 10+ years.

Re:Exactly! This is the "Post PC Era"

[Toonol]

Windows dominates desktop PCs, but the era of the PC is ending, and Windows will go the way of NetWare

Flying cars, Fusion, etc.

The era of the PC is not ending... we're decades away from it ending. There are a wide array of functions that a desktop PC gives you that no mobiles devices will fill. The only change that is happening here is that the PC is no longer the ONLY general-purpose computing device available. The explosive growth of one segment does not mean a different segment needs to die. It's not a zero-sum game; the segments complement each other.

Re:Exactly! This is the "Post PC Era"

[cavreader]

The era of the PC is ending? I guess that is true depending on how you define the starting point and ending point of the "era" in question. Is the current era ending in 1 year or 100 years from now? The longer the era lasts the more likely your statement is true. I guess this could also be the same era that Linux finally takes over the desktop too?

Who pirates Windows anyway?

[bkmoore]

Most people just by a PC which comes pre-loaded with Windows. I think 99% of the problem is OEMs installing unlicensed copies of Windows, but charging their customers full retail. Maybe MS should go after the OEMs rather than the end users who probably are out the Windows tax and don't even have a valid license to show for it.

Re:Who pirates Windows anyway?

[xiando]

I have a laptop and a mini laptop with Windows license stickers on them. I obviously removed the Windows infection as soon as I got these computers. Piracy of the Windows OS does not seem to be a problem, you basically can't buy a computer without being forced to accept their garbage. A real problem is the reverse: I "own" two "Windows licenses" I did not want or need.

Sweet!

[KiwiCanuck]

Now all a hacker has to do is take down the boot code servers and the whole world grinds to a halt. I'm putting Bruce Willis & Justin Long on speed dial!

Probably already posted but...

[Anonymous Coward]

A crack for this is possible too since all it would need to do is replace the part of the OS that the check for a code with a redirect to local process that is listening on the same port and always returns a "good" code.

Thank you, Microsoft !!!

[unity100]

This will be great, great towards killing windows. And i mean it.

more than half of the world uses your product in pirated state. and if they are unable to do it anymore, they will have to use other oses. with dwindling numbers in userbase and increasing numbers in userbase of another os, windows will use the predominant platform status and another os will gain it, and this will cause a move of developers and software houses as well - which will parabolically increase the rate windows loses market share.

there could be no better way to kill windows and kill microsoft technologies than reducing the platform proliferation. and, you are going to do it for us for free !

thank you !

one would say that microsoft could wise up at this stage and turn a blind eye to pirated usage to keep predominant platform status. actually one microsoft exec once said they preferred people to pirate their os, if they are going to pirate anything - and he was right.

one would think that if people put it like this, microsoft would wise up indeed. but you know what the good part is ..... i know that microsoft is NOT going to at all wise up, even if people from microsoft realized the situation. nomatter what we say here or what hint we give or what dangerous forecast we let them, they are going to do what they are going to do.

bye windows. it has been approx 15 years with ups and downs. mostly downs.

Long ago, an IT expert remarked...

[X86Daddy]

"The more you tighten your grip [...], the more [...] systems will slip through your fingers."

And haven't all the Linux distros had an "app store" for at least a decade now?

Re:Long ago, an IT expert remarked...

[qxcv]

And haven't all the Linux distros had an "app store" for at least a decade now?

Nope. Unless s/app/package/ and s/store/manager/, in which case YES, they have had such a thing for well over a decade. And remember that "package manager" and "app store" are two very different things, the primary difference being that you can remove package managers or control which repository they pull from.

Bigger question - how many genuinely care?

[JeffMings]

The majority of users are chained to Windows. According to http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_os.asp , the majority of these are STILL using WinXP! My computers include a beautiful 24" intel iMac, a fast laptop with win7/Ubuntu and a fast desktop with Vista/Ubuntu. I choose to work in Ubuntu because of the freedom and productivity it gives me. Guys like myself, and people who are happy working with their WinXP PCs really couldn't care less about Windows 8. The fanboys and Shiny Object fanatics are excited about Windows 8, but otherwise, how many people truly care about Windows 8?

Seriously?

Best advertisement for open source ever...

[Anonymous Coward]

Keep building a computer jail cell instead of an operating system micro$oft!!!

"Post PC Era", Huh?, so what do you call a "PC"?

[Paracelcus]

OK, so a "netbook" ain't a PC? And a tablet running Windows isn't either? What about a tablet running an alternate PC operating system like Linux? Or a tablet running somthing else? It has a CPU, display, RAM, storage and a control interface.

If it walks like a PC, blah, blah, It's a PC!

My "jail-broke" Ipod Touch 3rd Gen (that I got for free) is (IMHO) a PC!

MS envisions the future...

[fox171171]

Was bad enough when:
The internet connection is down. / I am not in wifi range. / I am at a remote location...
and
I can't play my game / surf the net.

MS decided:
...and I can't use my computer for anything!
is the future of the PC.

I'd love to see a law that says:
Thou shalt not design stuff to NOT work.

why did this get given to intel?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why does intel need a copy?
oh god please tell me that hardware vendors are not doing what I think they may be doing? Like DRM on a chip.
your computer becomes useless unless you buy an approved OS.

if that happens... I guess I will start a club. homebrew computer club, like back in the day

Language mangle

[Lurkingrue]

"Windows 8 To Fight Piracy With the Cloud" Just think about that title for a moment. If you repeated that to someone 30 years ago -- even to someone with an good tech background, who spoke English as their native tongue -- they would probably have thought you're speaking complete and utter gibberish. Actually, I'm not so sure they'd be wrong.

Product Bundling

[Anonymous Coward]

The cost of Windows covers a lot of work MS has done with 7 to offer a rich and modern experience.

They invested thousands if not millions in upgrading Internet Explorer to keep it closer to standards and more secure it ever was. They invested a lot in advanced UI toolkits allowing for interestingly flashy widgets with a crystalline theme full of transparency effects. The OS is very polished, from image viewers to a thoroughly integrated media player and music store, it is ready to display any kind of content you would find in the web. It comes with tools for image, audio and video editing and several classic games updated with modern graphics. The file browser has been upgraded to a much powerful and capable tool. And it comes with a wide selection of artwork for you to choose your style and customise. Microsoft has certainly invested quite a lot in providing a full user experience that-

I WOULDN'T POKE WITH A 10 FOOT LONG STICK!

For fucks sake I don't want any of that, WHY DO I HAVE TO PAY FOR IT? This is simple product bundling. I love PC gaming, PC gaming is great! Is where all the modding happens. I don't want no game console!?

What I want is a bare-bones windows environment to run games on. The old File Manager from Windows 3.1 is all I need. From there I can install my own selection software. I'd pay for that. Even though what I really want is to play my games on Linux, I would pay for a Windows license that includes as little actual Windows as possible.

Re:Exactly! This is the "Post PC Era"

[Risen888]

the era of the PC is ending

I assure you it is not.

Good

[Rix]

The more they tighten their grip, the more systems will slip through their fingers.

$40

[Rix]

Is the price Dell had on my last itemized invoice.

windoz 8

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds like you might just as well get a mac then.

Good!

[madhi19]

It make Linux an even more easier and convenient solution than pirating Windows.

So will it be affordable?

[Anonymous Coward]

I wouldn't mind paying, once, if I could get a license for *me* to use on as many (personal) machines as I want. As is, I'd have to buy a copy for my desktop, laptop, and each virtual instance. At $200+ each, FUCK THAT. So they get $0 from people like me, when they might get $100 if they licensed it the way I'd like.

The last thing Windows needs...

[Anonymous Coward]

...is more failure states. I know this is what passes for innovation at Microsoft, but they really need to find something more productive to do with their time.

Re:Exactly! This is the "Post PC Era"

[Lisias]

The era of the PC is not ending...

But stopped growing. What makes profits harder as you have to compete with your own past.

Catch 22?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmmm...need to activate Windows to fix problem with internet...need internet to activate Windows...

This is the "Post PC Era" - Nope, it is not

[dokc]

Desktop PC era will not end until somebody develops reliable user input using voice or brain waves which can replace keyboard and mouse. Until then, you will need you desktop PC to write programs, documents, e-mails... Until then, tablets will be just a toys used for surfing, social networking and reading newspapers (online version).

Re:This is the "Post PC Era" - Nope, it is not

[lgw]

No, not at all. I don't know why people seem fixated on a "desktop PC" for this purpose. A monitor, keyboard, and mouse can all plug into a $50 ARM-based device that boots from firmware (aka, a terminal) that lets you interact with your datacenter-hosted virtual desktop. This is already significantly cheaper than traditional end-user IT support, and the VDI technologies are far from mature.

The desktop era ends with the terminal, not the tablet.

I First Read That...

[Greyfox]

As "MS Will Fight Privacy With Cloud".

Yeah. Probably that, too...

DDoS

[Anonymous Coward]

and what if these authentication servers get denial attack?

Bye

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft has just taken itself out of the future technical market; what/who are they going to be replaced with?

Re:Gawd - There's a cost involved

[Geminii]

They will if Microsoft tells them to, and they're too lazy to research alternatives.

ReactOS Anyone?

[TheTyrannyOfForcedRe]

200+ comments and no one has mentioned ReactOS. When ReactOS finally hits 1.0 Microsoft can kiss OEM sales bye-bye. Who in their right mind is going to shell out $200 for an OS that restricts installs and phones home when they can have a 100% Windows compatible OS for free?

Re:ReactOS Anyone?

[Anonymous Coward]

200+ comments and no one has mentioned ReactOS. When ReactOS finally hits 1.0 Microsoft can kiss OEM sales bye-bye. Who in their right mind is going to shell out $200 for an OS that restricts installs and phones home when they can have a 100% Windows compatible OS for free?

This is true...And there is also Amiga.

http://www.a-eon.com/index.html

But I'm happy enough with my humble Linux distro.

Re:ReactOS Anyone?

[Stuarticus]

I'm waiting for Hurd, I hear it's going to be ready for production use slightly sooner.

Toss The Windows Out the Future

[h00manist]

It's of course dramatized and supersized for the news, but you could accurately say the era of computing monopolized by 95% wintel desktop boxes seems to be coming to an end. And it increasingly appears that it might be slowly filled by a much wider variety of processors, OS's, shapes, interfaces and sizes, mostly highly portable and hand-held. The largest motivator seems to be mobile connectivity and extreme portability, and the limitations these impose. The huge power, processing, co-processing, memory, storage, bandwidth, and cooling, required by desktop OS's, simply do not exist in mobile devices. Linux, being open source, highly flexible and modular, was possible to adapt, though it took Google do be able to implement and market a widely adopted single system with a less-fragmented application compatibility. MacOS/Apple/iOS, being a one-manufacturer system, was possible to adapt and market quickly. Wintel, operated by a hodgepodge of monopolistic companies intent on stealing each other's lunch all the time at any cost, with a huge established base to protect or lose, takes more time, and could apparently actually miss the boat, but they are now trying hard to make it.
 
It's understandable that a great many people would love all big monopolies to go away, do whatever possible to avoid them, and see this change as opportunity -- which it clearly is. However simply wishing, rooting, and stating "monopolies will die" won't make them go away, without there being some capable group that has joined forces and created interesting, maintainable options which millions of common people can manage to access, acquire, and use. Whatever the platform, the main challenge seems to be compatiblity, and what standards can be used, or created. Everything here is a challenge. Old apps, new apps, old data, new data, interfaces, source code. Interopability agreements and increasing fragmentation seem to be the challenges that rule the moment.

XP activation was also much despised

[h00manist]

XP and Office activation, back in 2001, was a rather despised and much criticed protection scheme. Previously Windows and office merely depended on a serial number, which was never verified at all. XP activation was a strong push toward DRM with a call-home feature to verify and activate the license key. It took a while until people figured out that if they wanted to run unauthorized/unlicenced Windows, and bypass activation, they could just use a leaked OEM version and key. Then the criticism stopped. Likewise, in Vista and Win7, DRM was despised, until reliable bypass methods were found. I suppose eventually they will just distribute Windows freely, and rent it to you on a yearly basis, authenticating based on "de-personalized" keys based on your fingerprints or other biometric data. Heck I should have charged them for that idea.

Re:XP activation was also much despised

[alexo]

Heck I should have charged them for that idea.

Better yet, patent it and refuse to license.

Wonderful for thin clients

[Anonymous Coward]

Think about it, I can have a centralized iSCSI operating system image and flash drives for the hardware specific drivers. Although given enough time, the delta from all the OS updates would overflow the flash drive.

Re:Exactly! This is the "Post PC Era"

[lgw]

The corporate desktop PC will not be replaced by a mobile device (those those are taking a share), but by a sub-$100 terminal built into a monitor, or built into a wall. Something that requires no IT support beyond "replace if broke".

That "wide array of functions that a desktop PC gives" are provided by a virtual machine in the datacenter, very cheaply managed compared to anything the user can touch, with that thin client giving you a real keyboard, monitor, etc. But then when you get home you have the exact same functionality.

The era of the corporate PC is over because cheaper alternatives will dominate. There will of course always be home hobby boxes, but home computing seems to be shifting stronngly to mbile devices.