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Big Brother Calls 'Shotgun' In Illinois
Reader kackle joins the army of free and accepted Slashdot submitters with this eyebrow-raising story: "I received a form letter from the Illinois State Toll Highway Authority saying that my first-generation 'IPASS' transponder needs to be replaced because the battery is old. I called them for clarification since the first-generation transponders obviously have user-replaceable batteries, and I wanted to keep this version because it beeps when a toll is paid. (This notifies drivers that their battery is still good, unlike the silent second-generation version, which informs them of a dead battery by sending a ticket in the mail.) The woman on the phone explained that they were replacing them just because the electronics are old. This uninformed answer made me research the device. I found that the manufacturer has recently filed a patent application for a new transponder that has a camera in it — a camera pointed inward at the occupants. How long before they make it illegal to cover that camera with tape?"
Take a picture of the inside of your car, shrink it down, and attach it to the camera. They'll be so confused about the driverless car that they won't worry about what laws you might be breaking.
So now you won't even be able to enjoy a beer in the front seat without being caught on video.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
From what I can tell, they have not manufactured a single device with a camera on it. Until they're actually in use somewhere, I'm not going to get my panties in a bunch. For all you know the camera equipped model is for specific edge cases like maybe charging cabs more if they have an occupant or something and won't be used 99% of the time.
I read the internet for the articles.
Absolute power corrupts absolutely. indymedia
The police can already get your ezpass/fastpass/ipass records fairly easily, which makes it easy to see where you've been and when. The real solution is to not trade your privacy for a few seconds of convenience while driving.
I have my own set of paranoia, one where some thief breaks the window of my car to steal my transponder. Unlikely, yes, but as a result, my transponder ends up in between the seats covered with paper. Can't you do something similar? Also, are you sure the transponder has a camera? Because that thing would run out of battery fast, and there's a difference (unfortunately) between patenting something and actually building it.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
Yeah! On the bus, the only cameras recording me are the 3 or 4 little black domes mounted on the ceiling!
Wait...
Slashdot needs a "-1, Wrong" moderation option.
The Urban Hippie
Seems like a little bit of black tape ought to fix the camera, no?
And how long will it be before somebody hacks it to transmit pictures of hentai (NSFW) back to the Illinois traffic HQ?
Or, more likely: how long before somebody hacks it to pick up the camera feed from unauthorized recievers?
Domains, shared and dedicated hosting, SSL certs, and more: ArrowBay.net
All you gotta do is put a camera on something? I'd like to patent Video Pants.
Someone flopped a steamer in the gene pool.
The next abstract part:
Sounds like a company that makes toll devices, are patenting a toll device that can enforce HOV Tolls by detecting if you actually have more then one person in the vehicle . . . . imagine that.
Nothing in that first page had *anything* to do with a battery, it had to do with their billing system and having invalid license plate data.
And come up with the completely wrong conclusion.
Jesus christ I know /. isn't what it used to be, but seriously is this the Daily Mail now?
Your hair look like poop, Bob! - Wanker.
What if a baby (a baby) does a huge poop (they store that up for the car, I'm sure of it) and you have to change them in plain site of that evil camera. Why you would being filming and transmitting what is by all means scat child porn. I'd refuse on those grounds alone...
a bit silly I know; but the law is the law.
Rise up America, you're rapidly turning into the most apathetic people around when it comes to your rights. Which means the rest of us are completely fucked.
It is funny to read you bashing America while admitting you are an even bigger pussy. If you want to fight, stand up and fight. If you want to stand behind and rant about it, put on a skirt and shake your pom-poms.
This post comes with a double-your-money-back guarantee!
Any offense taken to this post is at your sole discretion.
There is no camera in any ipass system nor any intention of doing so. Camera tech is ancient, this could have been implemented 10 years ago. I know this is the kind of manufactured controversy that gets ad impressions for slashdot, but please, there are real problems in the world, and this isn't one of them.
Here in NY we have EZ-Pass, which is also used by several other states (though I hear some of the other states charge fees for them). NY doesn't charge for the transponder itself, and they provide a faraday cage bag to keep it in when not in use (showing they realize people don't want a permanent transponder). It doesn't beep when a toll is paid, instead you wait for the light to turn green as you go through the toll booth. The only privacy issue is that the state could theoretically measure how long it takes you to get from one booth to another and try to automatically issue speeding tickets.
I guess IPASS must be one of those "no-booth" systems where you don't have to slow down or stop (thus the need to beep), but I can't imagine why they would think they could get away with a camera. Though, just because the company filed a patent for the idea doesn't mean the transponder has one.
The right to protest the State is more sacred than the State.
Not a shock to see this in the People Republic of Illinois
Has anyone been experiencing weird reboots with their augs lately? I got an email from the LIMB clinic saying I should get the control chip replaced, think I'm going to go...
Do you have any evidence that they are trying to replace your device with a new one that has a camera? Just because the manufacturer filed for some patent doesn't mean your state is using that technology, or that anyone would want to buy it for that matter. And then there's the tinfoil hat slippery slope conclusion that covering a camera might be illegal someday? Has anyone in your legislature proposed such an idea?
I thought that such transponders used a passive-backscatter technology like RFID, not requiring batteries?
I think the issue is that RFID doesnt work at the range these devices need to operate it. EZPass has high-speed lanes in PA where you go through the device as full highway speeds. The detectors are a good 20 feet away from a small car. Also I have heard they use older technology which isn't standard RFID.
Most non-high-speed gates have a light that tells you if the device read in correctly or not.
However putting a camera in it? WTF man, WTF.
I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
That's what I thought as well...I know at least some of them use RFID.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
This post is a series of unrelated facts that come together in a paranoid conclusion. Nowhere in here would I conclude that the state is adding cameras to their EZ-Pass, only that there is a company that COULD do that. Posting this was a really dumb editorial call, /.
Not really
America has a public statement of principles that many other countries don't. Therefore it would be easier to raise issues like this that violate those principles.
Not everyone is so lucky.
"The weirdest thing about a mind, is that every answer that you find, is the basis of a brand new cliche" -
What's your problem with Kentucky?
In the NYC area there are many toll discount programs for call pools with ezpass. In order to get the discount, you must use a cash lane even though you have an ezpass, so an attendant can confirm you are driving with the required number of people for the discount. So you pay less, but you get stuck in traffic with all the people paying cash. If a transponder had an inward facing camera then it could provide a way of letting you use ezpass only lanes and still get the discounts.
This application makes it no less freaky. I would only ever consider it if there were some technological privacy safeguard. For instance, a built in manually operated only door over the lens. When I approach a toll, I have to slide it open to allow the picture to be taken to get my discount. After the toll, I can slide it back closed.
There are lots of people who keep their ezpass in the metal coated bag and only mount it when they are near a toll, and there are non-toll ezpass readers all over the place, with the stated goal of monitoring traffic flow. Wanting to pay tolls faster and get discounts should not mean having to submit to random and capricious tracking and a total loss of privacy when traveling.
The Kansas KTAG system uses RFID. The transponder is actually a sticker you affix to your windshield. You can see the huge antenna and little chip in the middle of the sticker. Unfortunately, these do not operate at highway speed, and you must slow down to 20mph or even stop since the KTAG lanes are gated.
Passive RFID doesn't have the range, but active RFID does... and it uses batteries.
Not being RFID is a good reason why they might be replacing the hardware now. It would let them also scan for other active RFID tags.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
How much 'main stream attention' does it require to say it got 'main stream attention'? It has been front page of CNN for weeks now.
Put a picture of Anthony Wiener in front of the camera.
If someone is passing you on the right, you are an asshole for driving in the wrong lane.
Actually... based on how they do it just over the line in MA, I bet there is a more subtle play going on.
Here, if a transponder stops working, or there is an account problem (happened to me) they treat it just like any other unpaid toll. They take a picture, and send you a ticket in the mail. This part is key you see. Now you call them up, and the process is now dealing with a ticket. They can't help you, and have no incentive to because its not collected and dealt with by the same people.
So I could call up, pay the tolls, and fix my account. However, I still had to, seperately, appeal the ticket... which they get to send via snail mail and put an unreasonably short time period on, at which point they get to tack on penalties which were intended for fraudulent users of the service.... and just because the original ticket was an account error thats been taken care of is, in their mind, no good reason to do away with the penalties for not paying them within 21 days.
On top of all this, you must file a written appeal, and then.... call them back repeatedly to see if they have answered it yet.
Basically....they have designed the system for maximum bilk, and the last thing they want is you getting an early warning that there is a red white and blue cock locked onto your ass.
"I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
When I approach a toll, I have to slide it open to allow the camera to image the picture of a fully occupied car I hold in front of the lens to get my discount. After the toll, I can slide it back closed.
FTFY.
Still, an inward-viewing camera inside the car? Monitored by a State agency? The reason doesn't matter. It's still creepy and wrong.
Welcome to the Panopticon. Used to be a prison, now it's your home.
The British did the rise up thing in 1649... Didn't like it.
Deleted
The Tea Party was an attempt to rise up. So the corporate news organizations did everything they could to paint them as racists - and on pretty flimsy evidence. Now Herman Cain is one of the Tea Party favorites. The Tea Party has some clear goals - limit the power of government - follow the Constitution - cut government spending (and thus government control of the economy). What are the goals of these Wall Street demonstrators? If they really are trying to put limits on government what makes you think the corporate news orgs (who can afford lobbyists) will allow it?
I often don't like the choices people make, but I like the fact that people make choices. That's why I'm a conservative.
America has a public statement of principles
This public statement of principles hasn't been worth the paper it's written on since the Supreme Court scratched "among the several states" from the commerce clause in Wickard v. Filburn in the 1940s.
These people want to believe they are victims at all times regardless of facts. I wish their fantasies were true and the media were ignoring them so I wouldn't have to hear about their anarcho-syndicalist entitlement nonsense all the time now.
I support the Slashcott and will not be reading or commenting from 2/10/14 to 2/17/14. Beta is steaming pile of dog shit
*golf clap*
I drank what? -- Socrates
So what?
Just because it is harder for someone doesn't change that it's hypocritical for them to rant that others should do something while refusing to themselves. America didn't always have that statement of principles - it took people declaring them and fighting a war against one of the super powers of the time (while allied with another super power mind you, otherwise it might not have worked out as much).
In Florida we use an RFID sticker in the EPASS and Sunpass system.
http://www.suncam.tv/images/sunpass/sunpass-girl.jpg
I love Jesus, except for his foreign policy.
The old models only have a battery because they beep and some (perhaps all) have a display showing your I-PASS balance. The newer models are entirely sealed, and do not require a battery because they work by RFID chips. This post is a bit ridiculous.
If you want the reasoning... go no farther than the I-PASS website (quoted below):
I have one of the old display model transponders that beeps. Can I keep replacing the battery instead of swapping it out for a new transponder?
These older model transponders need to be replaced to ensure customers continue to receive the benefits of I-PASS and avoid toll violations. The Tollway recommends that these transponders be replaced for two important reasons:
The older transponder model is no longer being manufactured and, therefore, is no longer certified by the manufacturer. Our testing has shown that the older transponder model does not perform as well as the new transponders on the new open road tolling system."
Any toll plaza already has this ability. Point A at 9:12, Point B at 9:15, wait they are 6 miles apart....
People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people
Tape over the camera and/or microphone. Find the GPS antenna and disconnect or cut the lead, or just wrap it in aluminum foil and connect it to signal ground. Nobody should have to put up with this shit.
Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
I live in IL and have an IPASS on two of my vehicles (got the units about 6 months ago).
In addition to the ugly little units that you have to attach to the inside of your windshield with adhesive/plastic velcro-like stuff (UGLY), they offer "external" IPASS devices that attach to your front license plate with screws. Called a "License Plate Tag": http://www.illinoistollway.com/portal/page?_pageid=133,1392898&_dad=portal&_schema=PORTAL#mount_transponder
Ostensibly, these are to be used by people with special windshields that block the IPASS signal (no idea what causes that, but maybe some self-defrosting windshields have metallic stuff in them?), but they'll let anyone who wants to order one. The reason I got them is that I like my windshield clean, TYVM.
Of course, they could get stolen off your license plate with a screwdriver, but I haven't had that problem.
Anyway, this takes care of the "camera in my car" issue.
With the first link, the chain is forged.
I was surprised at how many cameras are on a modern public transit bus. Of course, being the geek i am I started wondering about their method rather then the Big Brother aspect of it. Do they record on the bus and transmit out, can they go live or is it time shift only? etc etc.
Good-bye
You shouldn't follow the media blindly and research things yourself, Tea party members are not racists, nor ignorant. They are painted as such by the corporate controlled media outlets.
(This notifies drivers that their battery is still good, unlike the silent second-generation version, which informs them of a dead battery by sending a ticket in the mail.)
This is not correct when you sign up for an IPASS account, you give the toll authority your license plate numbers. If your vehicle goes through a toll and the IPASS unit doesn't work correctly, when the toll authority goes through the photos of supposed violators' plate numbers, yours will be cleared as a registered plate and they just deduct the toll as per usual. It shows up on your IPASS transaction list/invoice as a "Virtual Toll". I had a bunch of those on my statement from when I took the unit off of one car and put it on another for a week, and they didn't seem to care at all. Same regular toll price.
The summary links for a forum post that says
"Worse, the way they're sorting out motorcycles from cars is by doctoring the plate number in the system, so when they go to check your plate number, it won't come up even if it's linked to the account, and they assume that you're not an I-Pass customer even if you are."
So that's some issue with motorcycles and the way their goofy system works, and this was in 2005.
Now, since they can read your plate and determine if you're an IPASS user, and there is no penalty for not having an IPASS unit in your car if you're a registered user...why have IPASS units at all? I guess for when it's raining or the plate is obscured and they can't collect a toll by OCRing the plate?
With the first link, the chain is forged.
Similar, I typically avoid toll raods though not always. I do math on the additional distance I would drive, approximate amount of gas that would burn, and the gas tax rate in the state I live to determine if which route results in the least taxes paid to the government. I don't care about spending more in fuel costs, just taxes.
Didn't you mean: *slow clap*?
Because it was deserving.
I only pay cash. Sure they can still track me with license plate cameras, and sure they can still take (arguable less clear) pictures through the windows, but I will not enable (and pay for!) the privelege of making it easier of government to track me. So I pay cash at all tolls. I've heard rumblings of eventually ending cash lanes on some roads, but if that's teh case it just means the few longer drives I make in a year just get a bit longer, though perhaps more interesting from taking more back roads.
That's not quite the way I remember it. Instead, I remember the Tea Party having some valid complaints, but then they were quickly co-opted by some greedy politicians like Palin and Bachmann. The Tea Partiers were so dumb and gullible that when these politicians said "we're one of you!" they believed it and adopted them as their spokespeople. After this, the TPers' reputations were ruined.
First off, yes, we should all get pitchforks and ax handles to storm the Illinois Toll Authority over this. It is obscene that they think they can collect money for driving on roads, and roads that were promised to have the tolls removed from after they were paid for ... in like 1970. Here we are 41 years later and nobody is talking about discontinuing the tolls any longer.
The whole iPass thing is a criminal enterprise to begin with. The idea of untraceably collecting money from people as they drive. Where is my receipt? And everyone was assured that no records were kept - until a stubborn divorce lawyer subpoenaed the Toll Authority for the records and ... imagine that, they were able to produce the records. It is now common knowledge that the records exist.
But as far as a camera on the transponder is concerned, just exactly what do you think could happen with such a thing? The unit has an extremely short range so even if they could transmit a picture it could only be done at the point where the toll collection transceivers are. At 60Mph (a conservative speed for the 294 I would say) the total time the unit is in range to communicate with transceiver is less than a second, so the amount of data that could be transferred has to be very small. I can't see there being any ability to send even a 360x240 frame much less any saved frames. What do you think the minimum size for a crappy JPEG might be? 10K? The data rate available through this system can't be that high, so what do you think, maybe they could transfer 2K? Not going to be much of a picture, is it?
So thinking about this reasonably, what possible use would a camera attached to one of these things be? You aren't going to be able to get the pictures off it. I suppose you might be able to capture the driver's face - assuming the camera is pointed correctly - and only the driver's face at a fairly low resolution to document who was driving the car at the time. Why this might be interesting from a toll collection standpoint I can't imagine and the infrastructure to enable such a high speed burst of data being transferred has to be significant. And you are going to have significant collision negotiation problems which can be resolved today pretty easily but extending the data transfer time makes these problems much, much worse.
I don't see any practical application for such a camera, nor do I see it being possible to get any meaningful amount of data from the camera through such a system.
Consider that there are police cars that transfer their in-car video data wirelessly, but it takes quite a few minutes to do that with the car parked. Now if we were talking about toll collection consisting of parking the car for five minutes I would say that everyone has a reason to be concerned about what might be getting recorded. The way things work today, I can't see there being a problem. Not only is this a solution without a problem behind it, but it is hopelessly constrained by the physics of the system such that there is no possibility of it actually doing anything meaningful.
So we're back to the immorality and criminality of toll collection. We all know about toll collection from children's stories of ogres, trolls and the like. Where do these stories come from - history and myth. We should expect therefore to find the Illinois Toll Authority staffed by ogres and trolls, right?
Doing X in a place where it is not used is in fact using X. Ipso facto, hashtags ARE now used in slashdot. Adapt or die.
The Tea Party has some clear goals - limit the power of government - follow the Constitution - cut government spending (and thus government control of the economy).
What are the goals of these Wall Street demonstrators?
http://coupmedia.org/occupywallstreet/occupy-wall-street-official-demands-2009
The web page is evolving and you have to essentially read it in reverse order to see the progress
the order is (AFAICT):
1: Declaration of the Occupation of New York City (11 demands)
2: Below Is The Original List of Proposed Demands and Voting Links for #Global Revolution (17 demands)
3 and Most Recent: LIST OF PROPOSED "DEMANDS FOR CONGRESS (8 demands)
The page keeps changing, so you mileage may vary
[Fuck Beta]
o0t!
The 696 freeway is hilarious for the morning commute, a solid WALL of cars moving at 80 MPH. The cops couldnt pull someone even if they wanted to. Troy is nice, i live in CA now and Irvine reminds me alot of Troy, Mi.
Good-bye
I wonder if the Occupy$places movement could mean that they're already rising up.
I think the 'occupy' movement just committed suicide. There are plenty of valid reasons to protest Wall Street. It's rife with corruption, cronyism, and regulatory problems. Many people from all over the political spectrum would agree with that.
However, they've made some public statements, include a list of demands, that are blatantly fringe leftist. That changes it from a general movement to a fringe element of one party; it makes them mostly irrelevant.
The Tea party has a similar problem, and handled it a little better, but still is falling prey to it. They should be purely about economic freedom: reduced taxation, reduced government spending. That was their original focus, and it had a lot of widespread support. Associating the Tea party with 'social' issues, like abortion/religion/gay rights, or foreign policy, make it more appealing to a small group but less appealing to a larger group. That seems to be happening as well.
The Tea Party may have had these goals *in the distant past*, but it's now a flunky tool of the Evangelical Xtian movement whose goal has been to corrupt and take over government since the 70's. The only thing it really accomplished was to make the Republicans look like even bigger stooges of the military and corporate America.
And don't forget to take the tinfoil off your head when you go into public
Tesla was a genius. Edison however was a overrated hack who liked to torture puppies.
...thei act togethe and epeal...
Little trouble with your "r"?
r r r r r r
See, mie works fie!
Oh - dammit - ow oe of my keys is't workig!
The cake is a lie.
Well, if we all had an RFID implant, then it could communicate with the ez-pass to confirm the number of occupants in the vehicle...
ducks...
We show geeks how to get their dream girl at EyesOfOdessa.com
#fuckPoopCat FTW
Actually I agree with this. As a Canadian when I drive in the US I'm appalled at how many toll roads there are and how frequently you have to stop to fork over a few bucks. Then Americans try and claim that Canadians pay too much in tax!
Tesla was a genius. Edison however was a overrated hack who liked to torture puppies.
The Tea-Party could get a lot further if they weren't so full of hyperbole and paranoia. I hear these guys talking about high taxes and socialism. If you look at capital gains taxes and the percentage-rate of the highest taxes bracket, the US is historically paying very little in taxes. Out of curiosity, I looked up the highest tax rates historically. Currently, the highest tax bracket is 35%. Since 1936, there were 45 years where the top income tax bracket was between 69% and 94% (all of them were before 1980) - in other words, for 60% of the last 75 years, the tax rate was double or more of what it is today. Yet, Oreilly talks about leaving his job if taxes go up because there's no point in working. And Tax Partiers invoke "John Galt" - as if taxes in this day and age are so oppressive, they'd might as well disappear. There were only 5 years when the top tax bracket was lower than it is today (it was 1988-1992). Yet, Obama is a socialist for wanting to increase it slightly - even though the national debt is going up, and has been going up significantly under every Republican administration going back to Reagan. Tea-Partiers have no sense of history.
How, pray tell, can I *use* hashtags in /.?
Is 1563649 a prime number?
I have an ipass, and it's entirely hidden by the rear-view mirror; if there was in fact a camera, all it would capture is the back (front?) of the mirror. As I recall, the installation instructions specifically suggested that spot as being the most unobtrusive.
where I live, they record on the bus, and are reviewed if a fight breaks out or some other crime happens. I'm actually OK with cameras on buses - here in my city, for a long time buses had a bad reputation as a good place to go if you wanted to get mugged. Since the cameras went in, more people feel safe taking the bus, and moving people toward mass transit is good for everyone.
They can already track your movement on the bus (they know who bought what bus pass, and they know what bus it was used on and when, which means they can figure out where you started and where you got off). Buses have no reasonable expectation of privacy, and the cameras don't auto-generate tickets for anything. OK by me.
"I disagree with you" does not equal "flamebait."
At least they are up front about what they want this for:
"16. The onboard unit according to claim 1, wherein the onboard unit contains an acceleration sensor, which in the event of an acceleration exceeding a threshold causes the camera to record an image.
17. The onboard unit according to claim 1, wherein the onboard unit contains a satellite navigation receiver to provide the image recording with the location and time data of its creation." Reminds me of this poster, except you'll be riding with a traffic cop 24/7. Nice! But why would I need this if my car already comes with On Star?
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
Then stand up and demand those same rights. Thats what we did, there is no 'luck' involved. People died for those rights.
If you're not willing to die for those rights, you shouldn't complain when you dont have them. Thats whats happening here. People would rather not die, and just let things happen. Thats slowly changing.
You "remember" this from your frequent attendence at Tea Party rallies? Or do you remember the Narrative as spun by the large media outlets changing over time as they found unpopular people to associate with the movement?
Honest question here.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
The press had already successfully demonized Palin and Bachmann (some deservedly, some not, some stuff just made up) in the public's mind.
Those two late-comers to the Tea Party movement wanted Tea Party support to get votes, and the press was more than willing to put their faces on as the national face of the Tea Party in order to further demonize the Tea Party.
Kara DioWhateverhername is flashing "jazz hands" is also front page news on CNN. CNN is not what it used to be, by which I mean a credible news organization.
You seem like a smart guy. Imagine the satisfaction that will come from figuring out the answer on your own!
Unpopular? Palin and Bachmann are very popular among their many fans. These two made speeches at TP events; it's not like the news media fabricated this.
this is pretty close to my memory too...
I agreed with a lot of what they were saying and stood for, then Glenn Beck started to agree, then more loonies got involved and co-opted the movement for themselves, and the reputation was wrecked. Adding Bachman and friends was close to the same time, so I am not 100% sure which event destroyed the movement for me.
I still dont understand why Ron Paul ( who had all the ideas that the movement said it was pulling for before the movement existed) isnt backed by the TPers. I dont mind, makes me feel okay when I enjoy his rhetoric.
Tolls originally had a valid reason. The government would purchase a bond to fund the road building, and the tolls would pay off the bond. I have no problem with this, the users of the road pay for their road.
The problem comes after the bond is paid off, the government never likes to give up a source of income that people may not notice. Now they only have to pay a fraction of the toll for road upkeep, and the rest is gravy.
Or even better, instead of paying off the bond with the tolls, they used the money for whatever pet projects they wanted. In either case the toll just becomes another tax.
Have you actually turned on a TV or read a newspaper in the last year or two?
Palin and Bachmann associated themselves with the Tea Party movement. They give speech after speech invoking the Tea Party and they have very many Tea Party supporters.
And you're trying to say this is "spun by the lib'rul media"? Amazing.
Here is a demo of modern surveillance systems installed to watch bus passengers. This one is from Orange County CA and it has 7 cameras rolling at all times. http://www.fullertonsfuture.org/2011/octa-uncut/
Life in Orange County
Where I live, all the tickets are electronic. Sure, you can buy single tickets from the driver but they cost more, aren't eligible for student discounts, etc... So everyone has a personal, electronic ticket to which you can either buy a period of time (e.g., a month) or value (e.g., 30 euros). When you get into the bus, you bring the ticket close to a device attached to the wall. If you have a period of time, it just beeps to inform the driver that he can get let you in and if you have value, you need to press some of the buttons to indicate how far you'll go (after which some of the value is reduced from your card, the device beeps, etc.).
The big brother doesn't need cameras to know about practically every distance longer than walking distance that I've traveled during the last few years. This includes the times I've taken a taxi as I use credit cards to pay for those.
When you hear people talk about John Galt, or 'going Galt' or quitting thier jobs over too much tax being taken, you can be absolutely 100% sure in every single case that the person is lying and would never quit.
People like O'Reilly would fight you to gain a dollar even if the government was going to take 99 cents of it. An amount more is what matters to them, above the amount itself.
"Sacrifice for the good of The State" - The State
So, if my daughter is changing out of her sweats and into her cheerleader uniform in back seat (and we have tinted windows), and this device just happens to snap a photo at the right time...
Someone needs to remind these iPass (can't Apple Sue?) people of the Penn. School Board people that were surreptitiously monitoring kids in their homes via laptop webcams.
I fail to see how kids can be prosecuted as adults to "sexting" themselves to other's cell phones, but the government is OK with taking photos at random everywhere and yet, they fail to see the potential for creating tons of kiddie porn, which will, no doubt, get itself distributed somehow. So America, which wants to stamp out kiddie porn, the government is the biggest producer of... go figure.
If telephones are outlawed, then only outlaws will have telephones.
... or using CASH.
http://cryptome.org/0005/ssl-broken.htm
(Correction: SRI is Stanford Research International. It was originally called Stanford Research Institute so as to suggest it was affiliated with Stanford University -- located nearby -- but after a lawsuit from Stanford, SRI changed the I to "International.")
No picture that way....and no tracking you at all that way.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
While I don't disagree that I don't see a privacy concern with cameras on buses, it is worth pointing out that in every city I know of, it is possible to buy a bus ticket with cash, and therefore, they don't know who you are when you get on or when you get off. Many also don't require you to scan a pass getting both on and off.
AJ Henderson
As I'd mentioned earlier...why not just ditch the electronic toll pass altogether...and just pay cash?
Then, they don't have as easy a way to track you at all...
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
That's not quite the way I remember it. Instead, I remember the Tea Party having some valid complaints, but then they were quickly co-opted by some greedy politicians like Palin and Bachmann. The Tea Partiers were so dumb and gullible that when these politicians said "we're one of you!" they believed it and adopted them as their spokespeople. After this, the TPers' reputations were ruined.
And don't forget the Koch brothers. They were major contributor to TP candidates.
I just wish we could get back to the original definition of "Tea Bagger"
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
Just to put some context around this, the "new" transponders were out 10 years ago. I've had an IPass hanging off my windshield since at least 2001 and it's always been the newer ones, no replaceable battery, no beep. They were fairly new at the time, because some of the instructions talked about stuff the new ones didn't have but the old ones did.
There's probably no evil conspiracy. He's just the IPass equivalent of an Windows 98 user and they don't want to support him any more. The old transponders may have a different protocol, or the failure rate among them may have hit a point where they just want them all out of the field.
You can tell if the toll has been paid if you go through the lanes that are like the coin collection lanes (where you're supposed to stop.) There's a light.
It's only the "open road tolling" where you can't tell, and if your transponder isn't working you don't get a ticket - because they know your license plate. So if you have a broken transponder, they look up the plate in their database and apply the normal IPass charge to your account. I went literally months before I realized my transponder had failed, and they didn't even mention it to me, much less send a ticket. I just finally realized that the light never lit up on the side of the road when I drove by.
Now, there have been rumors of tickets being issued based on the transponders - if I make it from toll point A to toll point B in an amount of time that indicates an average speed over the speed limit, I was clearly speeding. But so far I've never gotten a ticket, and I surely have deserved one many times. But a camera would make sense in that case - you want to be able to prove who was driving.
The preferred solution is to not have a problem.
#nerdrage
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
IL is on the EZ-pass system now IN needs get rid of the gates in I-Zoom (part of the EZ-pass system) only lanes they look like the I-pass only ones but have gates at the end. I also most hit one thinking the 15mph I-Zoom only lanes where like the IL ones with no gates and then saw the gate at the back and hit the brakes hard.
the $10 is fully refundable and you can link more then 1 Transponder to your account.
The Tea-Party wants more FREEDOM and less SECURITY. Those are polar opposites. Dems and Reps both want to increase Security and decrease Freedom. So, for people who want Freedom, where do they go? who do they vote for? who represents them?
Don't criticize the Tea-Party for wanting Freedom. Because they don't have an official leader, yet, there are a lot of them who make different statements and claims, and they all don't agree with the details. But the one thing they all agree on is Freedom.
And you're right, many of them don't understand history, and taxes ARE too low to support the current government programs that ensure our Security.
You basically look like an idiot when you can't even tell the difference between Evangelical and Fundamentalist Christians. Hint: they don't much like each other. Evangelical churches, by definition, compete for members with other churches of the same religion (this is doubly true of televangelists). In Reagans day there was some overlap between Evangelical and Fundamentalist Christians, becaue the fire-and-brimstone and Hod-hates-fags stuff was prety popular with the older generations. That fashion has reversed over the past 20 years, and now we have huge Evangelical mega-churches that know the basis of their sucess: all "up with people", never mention sin, rarely mention Jesus. Hardy the people you need to be worried about - those would be the Fundamentalist Christians.
And the Tea Party seems to be dislodging the Fundamentalist Christians from their place in the Rebublican coalition, as the guys who knock on doors and man phones come election time.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
Yeah IIRC one of the points of their early "constitution" (which conflicted with itself) was basically pushing a theocracy, making the US a Christian nation or something like that. This was one of the points that conflicted with another point, religious freedom.
"You can worship anyone you want, as long as it's Jesus."
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
Everyone wants freedom for themselves. Heck, even criminals want "freedom" to commit their crimes.
The Tea Partiers seem to be all about getting as much freedom as possible for themselves, and taking away freedom from anyone who is different from them. And they will use Big Government to pass laws to take other's freedoms away. Have you asked a Tea Partier for their opinions on abortion lately? Medical marijuana? Gay marriage? Integrating (their own) religion with government?
Many of those topics you bring up are not issues that the Federal Government should be dealing with, so if you ever hear a Tea Partier talk about Abortion, Marijuana (medical or not), etc, they are not talking about it from the Tea Party perspective, but from their own opinion.
That's another thing you don't understand about the Tea Party - unlike Dems and Reps, they all don't believe the exact same thing, or vote the same way. In contrast, if your a loyal Dem you vote for Abortion, and if you're a loyal Rep you vote against Abortion. But, if you're are a Tea Partier, you don't support Abortion being a Federal issue.
so, in reading only the first few comments, it appears that Illinois state is not using the camera in any way, has no intention to do so, never did, and this whole article, from it's catchy title to the contents, is largely in part speculative dribble stirring up fear. terrorism is what some people call it. can we just remove this garbage from the site? slashdot is a great new site but i don't want conspiracy theorists and fear mongering getting the better of what makes front page here... how was this useful for nerds? we know about big brother, yes? was there anything added to the cauldron of conspiracy here today that was newsworthy or is someone just looking for a soapbox in the limelight? sorry, i just don't get this new article...
Big Brother calls shotgun
Complete rubbish. The armed response module won't be included until the next version.
From the text of the patent, it sounds like they are trying to find a way to take a still, in order count passengers. I would guess so that they can charge per person in the vehicle, or at least have the option in the future. Not that it couldn't be used for something more nefarious. Either way it's cash for me thanks.
I art more snarky, and terse than thou. I art Slashdot!
What does this have to do with George Bush?
And you're trying to say this is "spun by the lib'rul media"?
Ahh, I see, everyone who disagrees with you is a drooling red-state moron, since no one intelligent could disagree? How's that religion working out for you?
How is what you said even related to what I said?
Which is funny, because Big Brother in Illinois is very much anti-shotgun.
Hoist Number One and Number Six.
You are actually wrong. In my state at least the cameras at every tollbooth do automatic license plate recognition, both as a means of issuing tickets, or so that you can register a temporary car and drive through the ez tag lanes without your tag.
So you are being watched and noted regardless of what you are paying with.
They also put up ez tag readers along even non-toll routes as a means of collecting traffic (including speed) data. Despite reassurances I can't imagine this goldmine of tracking and potential ticketing will go untapped forever.
You don't seem like such a smart guy. Try to think about the purpose of hashtags to work out why I said that.
Is 1563649 a prime number?
Nice, sadly the technology here is old as dirt. Also the EZPass website has all the ease of use of a government website, coupled with that wonderful web feel of 1996.
I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
Just mount the responder where the windshield meets the dash... with the camera facing up... it still reads when you go through the toll.. and all they see is the sky (and no tape used).
I know people who are "going Galt" already, in one way or another. One retired a couple of years earlier than he had originally planned (still quite well off). One is a consultant who'd now waiting till next year to start his next contract, having made about $250K already. One's a small business owner who decided not to risk highering one more employeee this year, because his personal risk/reward on that isn't so good with where his marginal tax rates are (beyond a certain point you start losing the ability to deduct things as you make for money, so the effective marginal rate is well over 50% for certain ranges).
Once you're making seriously good money, the marginal utility of that next dollar is low compared to actually having some time to spend with your family,and it's very possible for higher tax rates to make the difference. And that's a shame, because we really need business owners to be willing to take a risk right now: that's the only cure for the unemployment blues.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
Absent some kind of hash-tag search (you may recall, this is why this exists on Twitter) it adds nothing to the conversation except "I'm the kind of guy who thinks Slashdot is basically the same thing as Twitter."
i'm sure they wont turn the camera on unless you report the car stolen or the govt subpoenas video evidence of something.
"all i wanted was a pepsi..."
How does that make sense? If he's just got enough money and wants to take time off, hell, I'd be on board with that, but for tax purposes? What, the fact that he'll pay a few percent more on everything past what he's already made suddenly makes it not worthwhile? He'd still be getting 65% of everything over $250k, so if he'd gross another $50k, he'd still keep $32,500, which in my world is not an insignificant amount of money....Now, if he thinks that next year he's going to potentially not have that much work, and would rather be taxed on that $50k at the lower rate to make his income for 2012 higher overall, well, that's a different story, and then it'd potentially make sense to put off that contract regardless of what he's being taxed at if he can afford to wait. That's an issue of managing backlog more than anything else though....
Some bring out the best in others, some the worst. Some bring out far more.
#hashtag
Happy?
(This notifies drivers that their battery is still good, unlike the silent second-generation version, which informs them of a dead battery by sending a ticket in the mail.)
I followed the link and the word "battery" was nowhere. The problem was entirely a database problem. Is submitter trolling or just completely stupid?
I know that current generation TxTag toll tags in Texas are RFID stickers, and of course they won't beep. Is submitter really sure that the current generation I-Pass tags use batteries?
As for the camera, a patent is not a statement of what is actually going to be implemented, or even what is feasible to implement. I can't see why anyone would want to do it, other than nosiness on the part of the gummint, or under-the-table deals from someone wanting to sell them, especially when it is clear that a battery is no longer needed for toll tag transponders. 1) a camera would take a lot more power than a transponder, are they expecting people to hook it up to the lighter plug? 2) how exactly do they plan to get the data from the camera to Big Brother, especially on battery power? That's a lot of data, and a lot of battery drain.
#naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
#hashtag search, at your service. You're welcome. Now we've successfully shown hashtags can be and indeed ARE used on slashdot, by your logic, slashdot IS now twitter.
TxTag in Texas is an RFID sticker that operates at highway speeds. Plus, they also have license plate cameras so that they don't have to hire actual toll collectors (at least in the Austin area) for people without the tags. In particular, one stretch of a toll road added a couple of years ago didn't even have room for a toll plaza... then they realized that pay-by-mail worked well enough to get rid of the humans elsewhere.
The best part is that TxTag was designed to be compatible with various older toll tag systems around the state. My tag is valid for all (with a few obscure exceptions) toll roads statewide.
#naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
And you should expect privacy on a public bus that's driving down a public street in public because... ?
"I disagree with you" does not equal "flamebait."
You would accept removing the cover every time you paid a toll?
Christ, we are fucked.
expandfairuse.org
That's a good point, though where I live hardly anyone pays cash anymore. You get a discount if you buy the pass ahead of time.
"I disagree with you" does not equal "flamebait."
With the progress of face recognition software, it might not matter what you use to pay.
Right, my point was just that the previous poster's comment that cameras didn't make a difference because you were already buying a ticket wasn't actually true since it is possible to get a ticket without identifying yourself, thus the cameras do represent a potential reduction in privacy. That said, I think a bus is public space and personally I see no problem with the presence of cameras for security purposes on a bus.
AJ Henderson
Awesomesauce. A-shark jumping we shall go.
And you're trying to say this is "spun by the lib'rul media"?
Ahh, I see, everyone who disagrees with you is a drooling red-state moron, since no one intelligent could disagree? How's that religion working out for you?
How is what you said even related to what I said?
You implied that he mispronounces liberal; a common slight meant to imply that the recipient is unintelligent.
Bandwagon, perhaps, but shark? /. jumped that several years ago.
Well, the toll attendant at the toll plaza can see into my car to check that I qualify for the discount. Toll plaza already have a ton of cameras trained on your car. The transceiver camera provides an automated means to do the same thing.
I agree, its till really weird and creepy, just I think a cover would provide some balance in implementing a solution with the goal of car pool discounts. I also worry lots of people would just leave the cover open all the time. Also what is there to stop them from enforcing whatever else they feel like this way, like seat belts, etc?
An other choice might be to make each passenger carry an special ezpass transmitter, and the toll booth would count how many it detected in each car. That count could be randomly checked against photos of cars going through the tolls (something they do already) to spot cheaters.
The reality at the heart of all this is that owning a car is awful for your civil liberties, and it always has been, and that awful can creep into the rest of our lives. They need to be highly regulated so they don't kill people and all that massive infrastructure is paid for. It gives the government a huge excuse to intrude in your life that you don't get if you walk or bike everywhere.
Eventually they will deactivate your transponder number, and your perfectly good but old unit will stop paying your tolls.
Hey dummy, I specified my state, where even the cash lanes have tag readers.
p.s. kill yourself
Are the tolls somehow calculated per # of passengers? If not, its a violation of privacy, if it is, its f-ing insane.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Your dismissive insulting of the intelligence of people who disagree with your beliefs is so habitual that you can't even see it now. That's what the mindset of the followers of a successful religion looks like: they're so good at screening out information that might make them doubt that they'll never see any.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
How does that make sense? If he's just got enough money and wants to take time off, hell, I'd be on board with that, but for tax purposes? What, the fact that he'll pay a few percent more on everything past what he's already made suddenly makes it not worthwhile?
Insightful question. After all, the water temperature would only rise a little, why would the frog jump out?
Have you actually read Atlas Shrugged, by any chance? A key notion in that book is that there's this system of abuse of the most drvien and intelligent people, where we as a society take advantage of the fact that they'll keep working hard no matter how small the reward, because they are so driven. At some point people wise up to this tactic, and realize they have to draw a line somewhere, jump out of the water before it's boiling. That's where that "going Galt" phrase comes from.
Many people who are very successful are extremely driven, and have to actively push back against their natures in order to have any sort of family life (or life outside work). In his case this was made much easier because he started to feel that he was "being used". Rationally, IMO he'd be better off doing this every year, since the extra money he takes in on good years makes him far less happy than being home with family (he travels constantly for work, only home on weekends), but I guess it was the emotional response to people saying "bah, you'll work just as hard anyhow, it's just the kind of guy you are" that mattered to him.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
I don't know exactly how your iPass system works. But if its typical of many, a deduction isn't made from the transponder itself each time its read. Your serial number is simply looked up in a database from which your fee is deducted. Now here's the kicker: Not every transponder read needs to result in a toll. They can be used to track vehicle locations if readers are placed at strategic points in the city. But your's beeps. So if it starts beeping every block, you'll know something's afoot. So they need to silence the beepers.
Washington State is implementing a "Good To Go" pass system with RFID-like transponders. There will be no beep. But there are ways to detect when your transponder wakes up. And I'm looking forward to coupling a sniffer to mine just to see how and where they are tracking us.
Have gnu, will travel.
"Russia"
But I think you get the point.
>>Palin and Bachmann associated themselves with the Tea Party movement. They give speech after speech invoking the Tea Party and they have very many Tea Party supporters.
This would be the same Tea Party that polls at 75% stating they never want to see Palin run for president?
The Tea Party was a 3rd party protest movement against the Democrat and Republican parties both (since they both supported big government), and rather cannily succeeded where most 3rd parties failed by winning Republican primary challenges.
If you don't believe me, your sense of history is being rewritten. Go back and Google the furor that happened when the GOP created a "Tea Party" page on their web site. They had to retract it.
>>the US is historically paying very little in taxes.
Liberal talking point. Not true.
The percentage of GDP in receipts has stayed surprisingly constant since the 1940s, especially given the drastic changes in the tax code, medicare, and so forth since then.
(http://nationalpriorities.org/resources/federal-budget-101/charts/general/federal-outlays-and-revenues-1930-2015-perc-gdp/)
What HAS increased is outlays, and rather significantly. This is why most sane people believe in fixing the deficit mainly by cutting spending.
Actually, the toll areas have speed sensors in the ground - they know how fast you pass through the lane (it's also used to count the axles, which is what the toll is based upon). And, if you've ever been to Illinois, you know that this fact does NOT slow anyone down! Granted, we're not as bad as some states, but a lot of people think those green signs with the big "I" on them are announcing the speed limit, NOT the route number!
An excellent application for my patent pending micro image tape which will be available with images of a wide range of characters including Johnny Cash, John Wayne, Elvis, Beavis & Butthead, Bugs Bunny and of course my preferred choice, Taz.
maybe because this was never a pure IT news site and life of stuff dealing with IT, computers, programing and what not has changed so dramatically over the years t hat the subjects we discuss and which interest us are so different than before? Also there is this small little thing: computers have been once domain of technocrats and required a monster cooling tower (exaggeration of course) and now we have a few of them around at all times, soon IP addresses (and possibly microphones & cameras) will be given to vibrators and other toys - technical progress make our life so much different that it used to be. yet there is almost no other forum where these issues are discussed. In Europe this may be canalized with pirate party (I think I will try it as others are either silly or corrupt or both) yet without meaningful discussion in many fora this is not going to bring anything. OC one may wonder if general level of discussion in /. is at all justifying our time spent but I guess this is what we have and discussion level among almost any group I came across in my lengthy life was similar. Life one may say or I just feel philosophical.
Mexican border state presidents know a whole lot about Mexico because they have to deal with Mexico. Alaska has a lot of direct dealings with Russia, especially in gas and fishing, so the Alaskan governor would know a lot about dealing with Russia.
The "You can see" comment is to help the morons out there who don't know geography realize that the US and Russia are almost as close as Mexico.
I got one of these letters too. It is an obvious lie. The battery is replaceable. The device has a button you can press to determine that the battery is fine. Illinois is the most crooked state I've ever experienced. Bad state. Stay away if you can.
But in that case, the frog will die. Your friend will still benefit from having more money than he would otherwise.
This really seems like an almost perfect case of cutting off one's nose to spite their face. An almost childlike cry of "If I can't have it all, I don't want any!". The person earning the money still, even after paying taxes, benefits from having more money than they did before. If they're satisfied with having less, fine, can't fault someone for that, but doing it solely to avoid taxes and "suffering" to do so just seems petulant.
As for Rand, yes, I read Atlas Shrugged, and I find it cringeworthy. Not sure where this quote comes from, but it nicely sums up my thoughts about it: "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs".
Some bring out the best in others, some the worst. Some bring out far more.
Governors, not presidents. Typing too fast.
BTW, don't take any of this as an endorsement of Palin or Bachmann. I can't stand either of them and wouldn't want to vote for them. However, that doesn't I can't recognize the unfair, absolutely biased treatment they've received at the hands of the press.
Palin's out of the running now -- yippie. I hope she's missed her chance forever. But Bachmann's still in. If she gets too high poll numbers I may have to finally register with a party, Republican, in order to vote against her in the primary (and also maybe to vote for Cain). I don't want the choice between her likely incompetence and the proven incompetence of the current office holder, between a religious nutjob and a leftist nutjob.
Your opinion that moving to mass transit is "good for everyone" smacks of someone who has never tried to use the bus as a commute option. As 6'3" 260 lb adult male the is bus an absolute nightmare. The leg room problem would be laughable if not for the pain of my knees smashed up against the seatback in front of me. Plus, one of my shoulders and most of an arm will always be partially in your seat no matter how far I try to lean the other way and ignore the awkward position of my spine. I would rather take an 8 hour flight in coach than spend 1 hour on a commuter bus.
Look I understand that generally mass transit is better for traffic congestion and the natural environment. Heck, it was even cheaper by about $150 a month than driving. However, if I cannot walk from the bus stop to the office because of 90 minutes of physical torture beforehand then forget it.
For every benefit you receive a tax is levied. - Ralph Waldo Emerson
Even now, this is where I keep my Electronic Toll Collection device. I do this for a few reasons.
1. I hate anything obstructing the field of view out of my windshield.
2. I don't always use it when paying the toll.
3. I don't like the idea of it being always readable by road sensors.
As I approach the toll plaza, I reach into my center console grab the bagged device. Remove the device from the bag. Cross the toll plaza. Rebag the device and return to center console. Easier than when I retrieve paper money from my wallet because that is usually deep in my pocket.
For every benefit you receive a tax is levied. - Ralph Waldo Emerson
There are other goals in life than money, is the point - money helps a lot with happiness, but enjoying what you earn has to be part of it. Just because there is a reward, doesn't mean the reward justifies the opportunity cost.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
My electronic bus pass was registered several years ago to Mr Osama bin Laden, of Tora Bora, Afghanistan. It only got paid-up once, with cash (it only works in the capital city of the country south of us ; it still has several rides on it).
I'd be astonished if I was the only Mr bin Laden on the bus system at any random time. On those rare occasions when I go to that festering shit hole of a city.
Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
citation needed.
The Tea Party has always been a single issue, grassroots voter advocacy group. Their platform has always consisted of 3 planks:
Fiscal Responsibility
Constitutionally Limited Government
Free Markets
That's it. Nothing about race and nothing about religion.
The TEA Party has Libertarian roots, not Christian Conservative roots.
That explains the drivers down here on I-10, slowest I've ever seen on an interstate.
"...And who wants to make buttprints in the sands of time?" ~Bob Moawad
I believe I addressed that twice though; if you just want to take time off, or do something else, that's great. I'd do that myself given the chance. But if the only motivation is "I'd rather have nothing than pay taxes", I have absolutely no sympathy. Those of us who make more, in some cases far, far more than others do so because the society we live in provides us a framework that enables us to do so. Let me say that part again, enables us to do so. Without that framework, we'd be digging in the dirt and fighting for our lives just like everyone else. I have no problem paying more taxes than someone who makes less; I reap greater rewards from that framework, and therefore I have a responsibility for it's upkeep, and the greater the reward the greater the responsibility. Put another way, would your friend rather live in a mansion or a slum? He'd pay lower taxes living in the slum, but I'd bet he'd be more comfortable living in a mansion. I'd rather see America be a mansion than a slum. Or maybe I just can't imagine being so self-involved that I'd rather have less just to ensure that I don't have to contribute to the well being of others.
Some bring out the best in others, some the worst. Some bring out far more.
Changer a kids nappy in the car (possible view of the
camera) and then troll for sex offenders.
Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't. Mark Twain.
I can't speak for him, and I agree with you about the framework, but fuck em if they want to punish success, says I. (Of course, I don't have enough to "go Galt" yet, so I'm just hot air.)
Why? Because that framework you talk about is less than 20% of government spending (OK, somewhat more if you count the defense budget as necessary, but still the smaller part). Transfers of money from people who earn it to people with political power account for more than 100% of federal revenue these days, and that's not going to end well. Europe has all but collapsed already because of this sort of thing.
As I see it, America became great because government let success be rewarded with great wealth (sure we needed some basic safetly and fraud regulation and the like that we lacked durig the industrial revolution, that's not what I'm talking about here). Now we just can't stop giving money to people who vote for more money, and the burden of that is draging us into that very slum. We desparately need already-wealthly business leaders to take risks if we're going to save the economy, but all people talk about is diminishing the rewards!
I want to "starve the beast" till government as we have come to know it collapses, and (because we have to) we go back to a federal government that only provides that framework you talk about.
Or maybe I just can't imagine being so self-involved that I'd rather have less just to ensure that I don't have to contribute to the well being of others.
It's amazing how many people say this in one breath, and then in the next say "it's worth hurting the economy and even generating less overall tax money, as long as the the rich suffer from the tax system". But maybe that's not you.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
You and I have very different ideas of punishment. Being "punished" by only leaving someone with around $650,000 on every million doesn't sound that uncomfortable to me.
And yet during some of the greatest economic expansion that not only the U.S. but the world has ever seen, between the 1930s and the 1970s, the top marginal rates were between 50% and 90%. Using your arguments, those should have been the catastrophically worst years.
And yet, by continually lowering rates on the top bracket, that's what we've been doing. We've been gutting the engine that builds growth and pays for infrastructure, defense and social services, while at the same time disincentivising business growth by making it more attractive to pay smaller numbers of people ever more staggering amounts, rather than nudging them towards putting that money into the businesses.
There's no reason for them not to take risks, business losses and expenses don't get taxed. As it is now though, the incentive is to simply amass more and more money, and hold on to it, which does virtually nothing for the economy.
I don't think there's quite as much room for starvation as you think. There's the military, which I'd be in favor of using in less expensive ways (ie: not going off on adventures that have no clear benefit to us), there's Social Security/Medicare, which cutting out would leave us with a large group of impoverished elderly people (although if you cut Medicare I guess they'd die off faster so it's a self-solving problem if you're okay with that), infrastructure, which is already falling apart and is only going to get worse, social services such as food-stamps and welfare, which you could cut but I'd expect a pretty hefty increase in law enforcement expenses if you increase the population of desperate, hungry people with nothing to lose, education, which we could cut if we'd like to give up any pretense at having a workforce that can compete with other first-world nations, and on and on. Simply saying "Cut the spending" is meaningless unless you're prepared to offer a plan to deal with the consequences of those cuts.
The rich are not, and would not be suffering by paying higher taxes. It's not a crushing punishment to have to fly first-class instead of owning a a private jet. If the top marginal tax rate was raised to 50% (still WELL below historic highs), these people would still be holding over $500,000/year in personal income on each million they make, and that only counts their actual salaries, not investments and other capital gains (which is what Buffet was talking about when he said he was taxed lower than his secretary). A person making $40k/year will definitely feel the burn if you tax him at 10%, but someone making millions in salary/bonuses? He's still living a lifestyle that almost nobody else will ever have, and is not worrying about paying for the groceries, even at 50%. Now, if you want to talk about raising the tax brackets, so that the upper middle-class (say, up to around the $350,000 or so range) don't get hit as hard as the guy making $3m, or just creating new brackets that incrementally increase at much higher numbers than they do now, that's a different topic entirely and one that probably has a lot of room for discussion.
Some bring out the best in others, some the worst. Some bring out far more.
Some quick notes:
And yet during some of the greatest economic expansion that not only the U.S. but the world has ever seen, between the 1930s and the 1970s, the top marginal rates were between 50% and 90% [netdna-cdn.com]. Using your arguments, those should have been the catastrophically worst years.
During most of that time tax loopholes were many and large, and offshore investments were hide-able from the IRS. The rich weren't paying any higher taxes in reality, and perhaps lower. Under all the tax plans that have been tried for a century, federal revenue ends up at 19-20% of GDP.
On social security - it servbes a vital purpoise, but no point at all is served by having the government hold the peoples retirement money (they government just spends it) - let/force people to have their own retirement svaing accounts, no need for government to be involved beyond that requirement.
On Medicare - it doesn't matter how good/useful it is. We're not even funind it at 10% of what's needed - it can't possibly be paid for as things stand now. And, again, there's probably a solution that involves minimal government.
But overlal, you're missing my real point: the economy prospers when the risk/reward matrix is good for wealthy and successful businessmen. The more you up the risk (e.g., with a changing regulatory enorinment) and the more you diminish the reward (by steep taxes) the less the economy will grow, and the less technological progress we'll have, and the worse off everyone will be one generation later.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
I'll abandon this point, only because the issues are complex and I'm simply not prepared or qualified to make a proper counter-argument. I only repost it now so that I don't appear to simply appear to be picking and choosing the points I like.
The fact that a vast number, possibly even a majority of people are incapable of managing long term investments like this simply invites disaster. That doesn't even touch on the fact that we regularly see market corrections that wipe out people's retirement plans, or the predatory schemes that the investment houses can and do engage in. A safety net is required unless you're prepared to see potentially large numbers of indigent elderly people on the streets, and I don't think anyone would be comfortable with that.
I agree with your first premise, but not the second. I favour a single-payer universal system, but that's a much larger conversation.
Oh I'm not missing your point, I'm disagreeing with it. I agree that reward is an integral part of motivation, but not that it's the only one, or that it has to be unlimited. I see the current situation as being dominated by a predatory class of super-wealthy, and I don't agree that it's deserved. Having 1% of the population control 90% of the wealth is simply absurd, do you really believe that their efforts, on the whole, are 90x as important as everyone else? Does an investment banker, who produces nothing aside from paperwork really have more value to society than 100 (or more) teachers? Does a football player or radio talk show host really bring 50 times the value of 100 paramedics to society? And how about all of those "born on third base but act like they just hit a home-run" types like the Hiltons or the Kardashians, who make money simply by being who they are. The average household income in the U.S. is somewhere around $50,000, meaning that it'll take one of those average families 20 years to see $1M in earnings, vs Larry Elison, who will see $1M in earnings (not investments or stock options, just salary) by February each year. No, I don't think the super-rich are justified in their earnings, the numbers are absurd, and it's all a rigged game designed to keep virtually all of the wealth in a small number of hands. And besides, if taxes on the top bracket went up to 50%, do you really think Elison would give up and stop working if he had to pay $3M in taxes a year, because he'd only have $3M left (plus all of his stock options and capital investments)?
Some bring out the best in others, some the worst. Some bring out far more.
Quick on Social Security: there reasonable options between the extremes of "government controls everything" and "people can blow their savings on crazy stuff". Most financial planners will give the same advice, and that advice could be used as guardrails - just like a 401k can't offer just any crazy investment, the "government 401k" could offer still more conservative choices. The point is that the government shouldn't hold the money.
And I think you are missing my point: again it's not all-or-nothing. Yes, there are stil incentives when taxes are higher, but those incentives are smaller.
And why would you sacrifice the good of all on the altar of "fair pay"? Would you seriously be willing eliminate pay you saw as unfair if it meant everyone would suffer? (More realistically: how would you like to eliminate pay thta some ruling elite not chosen by you saw as unfair, if it meant everyone would suffer?) I don't think a pro sports star works 100 times as hard a a college athelete, but that's not some great moral problem either. The market finds prices that avoid scarcity and glut, not "fair" prices (as judged by ... ?).
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
"Metal coated bags" don't always work. I sometimes put my cell phone in a metal box. Imagine my surprise the first time my phone rang while in the box.
Social Credit would solve everything...
I'd say that what we have now is the place between two extremes. You can invest on your own, and should that not work out as hoped, you won't be left completely penniless. True, a 401k can't just offer any insane thing they like, but if you think they can't (and aren't) manipulated in favor of the traders, you're just being naive. As for the government holding the money, the government is the people. Why do you think that having a private group with a potential profit motive, accountable only to itself is better than a well regulated, not for profit structure that everyone has at least some voice in?
I'd say your position is closer to all-or-nothing than mine. Nobody is going to choose a minimum wage job over making $5M a year because they only have $2.5M left after taxes. Nobody is going to choose making $100K/year over making $1M/year because they'll only net $500K after taxes. The tax rate can go much higher at those levels than it is now before people seriously say they don't want the "hassle" of being a highly placed executive, with all the perks and extras that go with it.
You keep saying everyone would suffer, but I still don't see it. Someone who makes $1M and has $500K left after taxes is not *suffering*. They're still living better than almost anyone else you'll meet. If that's suffering, sign me up, I'll take one for the team.
Straw-man, nobody's talking about eliminating pay for anyone in particular, or even at all. A progressive tax system taxes everyone at a given income level similarly.
Indeed, in that case, the ridiculous salaries are due to a glitch in the system, where *somebody* has to get the money, even though what they provide isn't particularly productive or useful. It's irrelevant though, as they have the money, and taxes would be applied to them the same way as if they had made that money in any other occupation. The fact remains that without society to support them (stadiums, audiences, transportation, etc), they wouldn't be making anything at all. That they make such amazingly high amounts is a benefit they reap from being part of society, and therefore it can be argued they owe more back than, say, a hard working longshoremen or cop. Just as there's no guarantee to be rich, I'm aware of no guarantee of unlimited riches to the detriment of everyone else.
Some bring out the best in others, some the worst. Some bring out far more.
They don't need to count the axles every time you pass though every toll booth. Where I'm at, you're not allowed to move your toll tag from one vehicle to another. And of course, when you apply for a tag, you have to specify the license plate and number of axles for each vehicle you want a tag for.