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You're Driving All Wrong, Says NHTSA
antdude writes "This MSNBC Bottom Line story/article says that 'If you're a conscientious motorist who still does everything the way your driver's-ed instructor told you to, you're doing it all wrong. For decades, the standard instruction was that drivers should hold the steering wheel at the 10 and 2 positions, as envisioned on a clock. This, it turns out, is no longer the case. In fact, driving that way could cost you your arms or hands in particularly gruesome ways if your airbag deploys. Instead AAA, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration and many driving instructors now say you should grip the wheel at 9 and 3 o'clock. A few go even further, suggesting 8 and 4 to avoid the airbag mechanism as much as possible, but what formal research has been published on the varieties of hand positions suggests that this may lessen your control of the car.'" I usually hold even lower on the wheel, perhaps 4:30 and 7:30, but I also drive with my seat pushed farther forward than most people like. Drivers, what's your approach?
... like a boss.
I let my wife drive. I need my hands to hold my beer.
"The average reporter we talk to is 27 years old......They literally know nothing." - Ben Rhodes
Prosthetic arms and hands, you insensitive clod!
Didn't mythbusters disprove this finger myth years ago?
Is what most professional race drivers have done for decades, for several reasons.
How many of s stick our elbow out the window and do a 9ish position 1/2 the time?
---- Booth was a patriot ----
My father taught me 9 and 3, and for the most part that's what I've always used just because it worked for me. I never had any desire to do anything else. Never took any lessons, so nobody told me otherwise.
Wait wait wait. What's that in metric time?
I drive coaches, busses and cars...
I personally hold my hands like this;
Coach/Bus: Left hand on the money tray, RIght hand at 2
Car: Left hand on gear stick (yes... in the real world we drive manuals...) and right hand at 2
Driving with 2 hands on the wheel seems unnatural to me unless i'm flooring it... as I drive really relaxed...
Use your knees. "Experts" are buncha idiots.
Fuck systemd. Fuck Redhat. Fuck Soylent, too. Wait, scratch the last one.
Left elbow out the window, steering wheel held by hanging thumb on steering wheel spoke. Right hand either: manipulating some text messaging device, hanging over back of bench seat or trying to slip up the skirt of some babe sitting next to me.
Front seat passengers should place feet up on the dashboard immediately on top of passenger airbag deployment panel to ensure major foot/leg injuries in the event of deployment.
Have gnu, will travel.
My clocks have numbers, not hands.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
... but when I'm feeling lazy, one handed at about 1:30.
I use 8 and 4 o'clock positions, but I think it's mostly because I'm lazy and don't want to hold up my arms for very long.
~S
I recommend to remove the airbag and stick to 10 and 2. 8 and 4 definitely doesn't give you the same control in case the car suddenly starts to skid or you hit a pothole.
no, I don't have a sig
My driver ed guy told me this a decade ago. How is this news?
I had my hands at roughly 9 and 3 when it did; all I got from the airbag were some friction burns on my right arm and a good snort of stuff I'd have rather not breathed.
Trying to specify any particular exact hand position given the variety of people, steering wheels, and driving positions seems pointless.
And performance driving instructors have been advocating push-pull steering (rather than hand-over-hand) for a very long time. Not because of the airbag, but because it provides better control. Whether it makes a difference on the road or in the mall parking lot I doubt.
I sit so far back from the wheel that it would not do me any good anyway, and the collision threshold is typically set so low that the airbag actually presents a greater threat than is justifiable. In a low-speed collision where the car does not come to a stop, it might still be necessary to control the vehicle afterwards. If your arms have been blown off the steering wheel and possibly broken/severed by it, that's not possible, and can lead to secondary, even more injurious collisions.
I know this because I was involved in just such a collision (with a deer) where the airbag caused me to lose control of my vehicle, and my arms were broken so badly I could not turn the wheel to avoid having a second, must worse collision (with a tree), which killed my wife and 4 year old son, and left me paralyzed from the waist down.
They told me my son was killed instantly, and it took my wife 8 days to pass away in intensive care. I did not wake up from my coma until day 9. That was the worst day of my life.
Being without arms, and a right leg; I use my nose.
One hand at 8 or 4 o'clock, one hand around cell phone
Left hand at six o'clock and the other on the gear stick. That takes care of carpal tunnel issues.
I solve this problem by having a chauffeur :-)
Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
Karma: Chameleon
My friend says that everyone would drive a whole lot more safely if there was a huge, sharp metal spike on the steering wheel that was pointed toward the driver's chest. I think he might be right.
Index finger and Thumb at the 7 o'clock position
Don't drink and drive. You might spill your drink.
This is nothing new. 9 and 3 has been to recommendation of defensive driving courses for years.
Drive with your knees. It keeps your hands free for the important things like texting and eating.
Now, a few basic points about driving. One of the first things they teach you in Driver's Ed is where to put your hands on the steering wheel. They tell you put 'em at ten o'clock and two o'clock. Never mind that. I put mine at 9:45 and 2:17. Gives me an extra half hour to get where I'm goin'.
-George Carlin
Knee at 5:45. Left hand holding the burger wrapper like a plate. Right hand holding the burger.
I've been driving that way since the 1970's shortly after passing my first driving test. It was the recommendation of the folks at a local race school (admittedly I took the motorcycle not the driving course, but it came up in passing). I've been doing it so long I had to dredge up any memory of other advice.
It's taken NHTSA THIS long to fix an obvious blunder (especially since the mandate of airbags?) wow.
Pity we're not allowed to opt for 5 point harnesses. Safer than the crappy "automatic" belts and airbags (ever watch a race car accident?). Yes, a little more work to adjust, but far safer. Sadly, thanks to the pointy heads in Washington we're not allowed to opt for them as a factory option.
When Danica crashed she put her hands on her helmet so that the reaction force of the steering wheel would not break her hands.
Why don't they teach that technique in driver's ed?
I keep my steering wheel high, and just keep one hand comfortably on the bottom unless I'm actively turning or in tricky traffic requiring lots of lane changes.
Occasionally living proof of the Ballmer peak.
My wife was honking the horn as she hit a lady who had for some reason decided to stop while crossing a highway to tend her grandchild, at night, in the rain. Compound fracture of the arm was the result. Out of work for three months. Never honk the horn.
My fingers still get crushed when I start moving.
... for cruising. If I need extra control, I'm still in the habit of 10:00 and 2:00. Honestly, I'd rather my arms or hands be hurt in a crash than my head crack the windshield or my ribcage break apart on the steering wheel, so I'll keep the airbags. (A seatbelt, while important to keep from flying out of the car and getting personal with the pavement, doesn't provide great protection against smashing against hard objects within the car.) My hands are softer than the steering wheel; if something's going to hit my face, I prefer the former over the latter.
I was listening to a radio program that explained this while I was in the car. I looked at what I was doing, and realized I already had my hands in the 9 and 3 positions most of the time. 10 and 2 o'clock always seemed less comfortable.
Left hand, 6 o'clock and the other on my smart phone/radio/environmental controls/turn signal/food or joy stick.
Left elbow on door armrest, holding steering wheel if cruising. Add right hand at 2 if maneuvering.
I come from New Zealand, which is a British Commonwealth country. We drive on the left side of the road.
(it dates back to the days (and knights) of old, when a rider would want to meet an approaching rider on his right side where he could use his sword (or lance) if necessary.
And when I learned to drive, it was at a quarter to 3, and the left foot was for the clutch.
What is with you Americans having to use these stupid units for everything? Is it that hard to say pi/6 and 5*pi/6 that everyone can understand?
It wants its obvious "news" back.
They have their hands at 3 and 9 usually. That has the most control.
Professional crashers (yes, they exist) put their hands up at the sides of their head.
For the most control, you should sit close enough to the steering wheel that your shoulders remain against the seat. Sit upright, not leaning back. Make sure your legs are close enough that you can easily flatten the brake pedal to the floor.
Shorter-armed drivers should be careful, though. Sitting too close to an airbag is bad. 10 inches to the sternum is the minimum safe distance. Most of us drive easily farther away than that.
From what I understand, European airbags are typically less powerful than US airbags - because we tend to wear seatbelts, so the airbag has less to do.
I always liked George Carlin's advice:
What do you mean they cut the power? How can they cut the power, man? They're animals!
it's the only way to drive.
not f'ing driving at all! f'ing cagers!
Our driver's ed instructor about 20 years said 9 and 3, and specifically said NOT to follow the 10 and 2 advice. Good on him.
I suspect that this is a bigger problem in the US than elsewhere, as their airbags have to be so much more powerful than (for example) European ones as the manufacturers can't assume that you're wearing a seatbelt (a legal requirement in most of the civilised world).
Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it.
Nineteen to the dozen!
If everyone wore their seatbelts the government admits that we wouldn't need airbags. The advice to move our hands on the steering wheel is an admission that airbags are dangerous. How about we make ourselves safer and save some money and give up on airbags.
http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/roadsafety/tp-tp2436-rs200103-menu-125.htm
The last driver's safety course I took to lower my insurance premiums had already been updated on this news several years ago. Even Drivers Education classes in High School had already began to teach new methods.
One hand holding a cigarette and the other hand holding a cell phone. I learned to drive from a New York taxi.
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This is another troubling outcome of trying to alter the optimum behavior for control to accommodate for over-done safety or security. Maybe the intensity of the airbag or placement can be modified so that the optimal place for controlling the wheel is still used?
Surely the government wouldn't mandate an over achieving potentially harmful design in the name of security would they?
-Xen
You should never be able to straighten your arms when holding your steering wheel... EVER. If you crash you want slightly bent arms so that the impact doesnt cause your arm bones to shatter.
If you must push your seat back (long legs), then adjust the steering wheel and pull it closer to you (assuming you have an adjustable steering wheel).
9-3 for me. I learned 10-2 but it's uncomfortable. I've got long legs so I need to rack the seat back all the way to be comfortable on the pedals, so 9-3 is about the best spot to be for holding the wheel.
I do think that any lower than 9-3 is dangerous, since it won't let you react very quickly since your hands are in a position where you have to think about what you're doing instead of just having things happen on reflex.
There is no sig...
Right elbow on window sill / hanging out window, with wheel spoke between right thumb and forefinger, and wheel between forefinger and middle finger. Seems natural and comfortable. Left hand goes where it pleases, which is generally on the gear stick. Though it does like to wander on occasion. Both hands usually hold the wheel at 9 and 3 with thumbs resting on the top of the spokes when driving fast down country lanes.
...so does that mean if the airbag deploys, I'll end up punching myself in the face?
I'm surprised MSNBC picked up on this advice, it's only been around for a decade or two. Usually they aren't that quick on the uptake.
So I am usually slouched against the door-jamb and door-side seatback. I hold the wheel with door-side hand thumb about eight o'clock and forefinger about ten o'clock, elbow on arm-rest, or with four fingers in the wheel at about six o'clock, or with my non-throttle knee ranging between five and seven, with the throttle-foot knee up momentarily when I need to shift my steering knee for a new grip to set for a corner. When I drive so I have to pay attention I drive with two fingers in the steering-wheel spokes for fast counter-steer adjusting, and the other hand on the shifter, since then I'm using gears (and I don't have anything new enough to have paddle-shifting).
The airbag I ignore. I suppose I should be more aware of it, especially when I am pouring coffee in the morning, with mug in one hand and thermos in the other. But I am pretty careful then to have enough room to finish my pour before I will need to brake. When not pouring I can put the thermos in what used to be the beer position and hold the mug clear, steering, or holding against brake pull (in bumper-to-bumper traffic), with the thermos hand. No problem then, normally, but if a bupber-tap ever launched an airbag I could get scalded, couldn't I?
I've been driving these ways for decades and for millions of miles. Being still alive, despite the government's chicken-little flutterings, I think my best course is to disconnect my airbags. I appreciate your bringing my attention to this. Thanks for the tip to get me to think to.
I change my hand position depending on what I'm doing while driving down the road. Hardly any traffic? One hand at 3 and other on the knee. Need to steady the car? 4 and 8 maybe or 3 and 9. Tight turn in a parking lot? One handed and doing a palm-roll or whatever you call that when you don't exactly grip the wheel but need to spin it quickly with the back of your hand.
One thing I do try to be consistent about is driving thumbs out. Don't do much off-road, but you never know when some stupid pot-hole might come up.
If there's anything most people consistently do wrong, it's the adjustment of the driver's side mirror. So many people have it looking at the side of their own car rather than the adjacent lane that it's crazy. Now if they move their ear to the window glass and otherwise adjust that mirror as usual (while the ear is kept against the glass), that mirror becomes a lot more useful when sitting in a normal position. Even when explained and demonstrated, some people still don't grasp the concept. (And no, in most cases the center mirror doesn't need the redundancy.)
The lower your hands, the less leverage your forearms have on the steering wheel.
In effect, smoothed out driving whether the driver knows it or not.
Think about it: If you're driving in the rain, would you want your hands higher or lower? If you ripped the wheel one way to avoid a collision and rip back the other way (over correct), it could be ugly with all of that leverage the higher your hands are.
why should I listen to a government organization that thinks my GPS should not have a moving map - it's laughable....
why not just fix the f'in airbags to NOT cause more injury than they prevent???
should be a major multi-manufactorer recall
If i drove.. I'd hold the steering wheel throughout the journey, not just at certain times.
I've been through a frontend crash "at speed" complete with airbag deployment. The car was a writeoff afterwards. The impact was right on the nose. I always drive with my seat well back (I have fairly long legs) and a tight seatbelt (if you're going to use it, use it correctly). The little Dodge (and airbag) died saving me from injury. I walked away with a slightly dislocated neck, compressed ribs, and a small burn on the back of one hand from the airbag. Some observations: Holding the wheel at 12 o'clock would have broken my arm. Holding the wheel at 10 and 2 would possibly have broken wrists or arms. Gripping at 9 would probably have damaged my left hand when it hit the door. I *only* hold the wheel at 4-5 and 7-8 (or one hand at 6 on long drives). That still allows me to put more force into the wheel than my wife can in any position. If you need the extra leverage you can apply by holding the wheel at 3 and 9, then you have done something very, very wrong (or worse, stupid). When I drive, I try to avoid doing anything stupid. (And since you have to know, don't ever, ever, assume that a car on the freeway is moving in the direction of traffic.)
1 hand @ 7:30. Ive had the airbag deploy on me before and all it did was damage some tissue in my hand and shoot the stuff that is in dynamite at my hand temporarily scarring it. Other than that and whiplash, just fine.
I drive with my knee
One of my first cars was a HR Holden, one hand on the wheel, the other on the gearstick to stop it popping out of thitd gear.
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
I drive a 40-year-old car. Holding my hands in a certain position is the least of my problems, but usually they are at 9 and 3 because the steering wheel spokes are at 10 and 2 and each hand ends up an hour off when you hook your thumb. With +3 wheel fitment and no power steering, you have to hold on!
Sorry, but gray text on gray background is making my eyes bleed.
You lay your seat all the way down, so you can almost see the road through the steering wheel and dashboard. then you lean in towards the center of the car.
Nod your head a lot and stare at people that dare to look at you.
you are even safer if you cant see any roadway at all, lean that seat even farther back.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
... nobody drives with their chin here?
I always get so restless when driving
So I might as well slap my chin on my wheel-pillow and pretend to be relaxing on a boat, kills 2 birds with one car... and cats... dogs... sometimes even people.
WHY DO I STILL HAVE MY LICENCE?!
Maybe I should get a boat.
Cruising on the freeway like you own it, because you do.
When my older brother was a boy, he told him that he could drive with one hand because he uses the force.
and wear the belt/shoulder harness. I know two people
that totaled full size American pick-ups in collisions
with trees (the both swear it was the tree's fault). One
got a broken kneck from the airbag. The other was
unscathed; the truck was built before airbags were
required in pick-ups.
A fire captain told me that he had never seen a dead
body in a car accident with a person wearing the
belt/should harness. He'd seen a lot of dead bodies in car
accidents where deceased had no belts on.
more cowbell
I steer with my knees.
Italy 1987, getting the driving license: my instructor told me to drive with hands at 9-3 and position the seat so that I can touch the top of the wheel with my wrist.
Italy 2004, a one day safe drive course: my driving instructor told me to drive with hands at 9-3.
The rationale of 9-3 has nothing to do with airbags. It is that you can steer the wheel more and faster than if you start at 10-2 (basic physics). The rationale of being close to the wheel is that with flexed harms you have a stronger grip than if your harms are fully stretched (basic physics again). But if you get too close you can't steer it much anyway, so touching it with the wrist gives a kind of optimal position.
Customary joke from Europe: maybe the 10-2 position is optimal for racing on ovals ;-)
I simply let go of the wheel just before every accident
So I determined that where I hold the steering wheel depends on what I'm doing.
In moderate highway traffic I drive 8 and 4 where my hands are in the best position to micromanage the cruise control. (I prefer driving with my hands to my feat when I can, drives my wife crazy)
In very light or stop and go highway traffic, or inner city roads that are straight, I typically drive with my left hand on the arm rest and my right hand at 3.
When I'm driving one handed as above and need to turn or switch lanes, or on twisty roads, I drive with my hands on 9 and 3.
I shall ask my driver. Hmmmm.
I'm trying to wrap my brain around the need to sit on the right side of the vehicle to hold the lance out the window. I know early British electric systems weren't all that reliable (Lucas - "Prince of Darkness" electrics) but couldn't you have come up with something less, shall we say, phallic, for a warning system?
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
also keep the thumbs pointing outwards so you still have them when the airbag fires
Open Source Alternatives
A real American steers with his stomach. The burger wrapper sits on top of it.
This leaves both hands free for nutrition and texting.
I always find myself holding the wheel with one hand, my right, crossed over to around 11. My left SOME-times holds the bottom. I'd give myself a knuckle-sammich if the airbag went off, wouldn't I?
You want to know how to help your kids? LEAVE THEM THE F*&K ALONE. --George Carlin
This doesn't make sense: If you approached with a lance (presuming right handed) you would have your shield on the left arm, lance right. Then you would want to meet an opposing rider on your left to shield their lance and hit them with your own, much as in jousting (jousters always ride right side).
What always gets me is how little people seem to know about anti-lock braking, and specifically, how you should be braking. People should be practicing what instructors now call "threshold braking," where you find the point at where your wheels just start slipping and keep it around there. People should _not_ rely on ABS and simply slam on the brakes as hard as they can.
If you imagine a graph of the velocity of wheel rotation:
- Slamming on brakes without ABS makes graph stay at 0, meaning your car is sliding (not ideal obviously).
- If you slam on the brakes with ABS, the graph skips between spinning and flat, each spinning point getting slower until you stop. Every time it catches you sliding, it'll force the brakes off to make your tires roll again. This is better, because the brakes will catch more often, but it's still not the best.
- The threshold braking graph will be a downward pointing graph that goes from spinning to stopped without ever slipping.
Those with calculus backgrounds--the integral of the threshold braking graph will be smaller than that of ABS braking, meaning deceleration is quicker. It does take practice to learn how to tell when your car is slipping and letting off the brakes just a smidge until it's not, but it really is the better way to brake.
Doesn't anyone else use a non symmetric two handed hold? I often use 2 and 9 or even 1 and 9. Lets me rest the left arm on the window sill.
Intellectual Property is a monopolistic, selfish, and defective concept. It is "tyranny over the mind of man"
I use both of my hands to hold the book I am reading and my left knee/leg to hold the wheel. Don't worry, I don't text or use a cell phone while driving.
Of all that we do wrong while driving, I find that to be much less significant from a safety standpoint than the following: driving while distracted, including talking on the phone, texting, tuning the radio, navigating, etc battling with the other occupants in the car (my kids?) forgetting there are others on the road (really, some drivers seem totally oblivious) driving while impaired or devoting less than required concentration to the task at hand (tired, drunk, daydreaming or otherwise, I too have been guilty being to tired to drive) Failure to follow even the simplest of rules/courtesies of the road: Stay right except to pass, speed up to merge, signal your intentions, go, don't dally, be aware of what's around you, slower traffic keep right- please for the the love of ones deity keep right- nothing is more irksome than to happen upon a solitary driver who merges at 20mph less than mean speed of traffic and heads straight to the leftmost lane to hold up all of the traffic they can. One more, if I could carry a cannon on the front of my car that would fire one round, it would be meant for the ass parked in the leftmost lane holding up traffic for miles refusing to yield to faster traffic! Move the fuck over! Better yet give me the keys to your car and your license to drive- their confiscated forever, no soup for you. Oh BTW, my steering wheel cannot be properly held at 9 and 3, it has spokes at 3,6, and 9. Same for my wife's car.
Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?
No, not THAT knob, the big fist sized knob on the wheel of my forklift
Three Squirrels
in my 68 Dodge Dart.
Or at least that's my suspicion. In my own driver's ed course in the mid 1990's, at least, we were taught 9 & 3.
...except during daylight savings time when i set them to 10 and 4.
Didn't Mythbusters already bust this?
Now car companies have an out when their airbag kills me.
however, we might first want to get most drivers to put the other hand on the wheel for a start, then worry about where o'clock they put them...
Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?
Who the hell uses hands anymore, let alone both. I use a left finger at around 7 oclock. It leaves my right hand free so I can give the finger to friendly motorists and peds that get in my way. You should have seen some of the red light camera ticket pictures I have been featured in. Masterpieces. On occasion, there was no hands on the wheel at all so I could give the cross traffic and the camera the finger at the same time. Who the hell needs hands, anyway? I've got my elbows and knees for that purpose. I'm too busy shaving and grooming, anyway to pay attention to or care what you are doing. I've got to make up that 20 minutes somehow. If my boss doesn't see me tentatively poking away at my computer by 8am sharp, he may get a hint that maybe am really playing tetris, visiting slashdot, or otherwise not doing my job.
A conscientious driver might not be the type to get into accidents that would cause the air bag to deploy anyway?
That said... left knee on the 7 o'clock position all the way!
Modern ABS responds fantastically fast. All you feel is a pulsing brake pedal as the car quickly stops without skidding. My car is 5 years old. On the way home, I often engage ABS for fun, especially when about to pull into my driveway. Weeee!
Slam on the brakes and steer. That's what ABS are for. They almost always lead to shorter stopping distances than cars without ABS, and you can avoid the deer on the road.
Some cars now have a system that senses a panic stop and fully depresses the brake pedal to get the quickest stop. Drivers were not getting the most out of their brakes, leading to accidents.
I use a suicide knob to steer with. Driving an 18 wheeler means I dont care what I am doing, I am always watching out for you idiots that think they know how to drive.
"Remember, politicians and diapers should be changed often and for the same reason."
Ahh they drive on the left in Japan too, so that explains the extensive history behind the Mitsubishi Lancer.
. . . has always recommended 9 and 3, but not for anything related to airbags.
ABS does not shorten braking distance, as many people think. It often makes braking distance longer (compared to proper braking), like described by the previous poster.
Goal of ABS is to provide control while braking - ability to turn the car and avoid an obstacle. Without ABS you need to release the brake to restore control, which is not something people without training would do.
Given the choice of "just shorten braking distance" and "allow people to brake/control car instead of spinning it" the latter is probably the lesser evil.
Forget that. I drive with my hand on the knob.
(Naturally, my steering wheel and car are way cooler than that picture) : P
blog
Here they disregard not only hand positions. They also disregard turn signals, turn lanes, stop signs, stop lights, speed limits, weather conditions, following distances, and the laws of physics in general.
For example, last week someone in the right hand lane attempted to make a left-handed U-turn while I was driving past them in the left hand lane. They were on their way to buy cigarettes - had they hit me (as they quite nearly did) I would have spared them dying of lung cancer and bludgeoned them to death in the road.
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
I drive the same way! I've already had children, so I don't really care about what happens when the airbag goes off.
We drive 10 to 2 because that's what Drivers Ed taught us. Its your responsibility to make sure the safety systems are designed properly.
Not our responsibility to adopt unusual or uncomfortable driving positions, because you can't be assed to find good designs for safety systems.
Air Bags suck, ban them, and mandate something safer.
Make the common way of driving safe.
And less traffic means less accidents...... making where you put your hands on the wheel a general non-issue.....
you insensitive clod!
http://www.acetonestudio.com
...was 9 and 3. The way I still drive. Another thing: THUMBS OUT. Steering wheels, particularly on commercial vehicles, have the potential to rip your thumbs off in normal operation if you wrap them inside the wheel.
Furries make the internet go.
Oooh, the topic is driving? *steps on soapbox
Who cares where your hands are? There is one rule of safe driving that should always be mentioned b/c it sums everything up:
You must pay enough attention.
That's it. If you drive with with your pinky toe and avoid all accidents, then that's safer than 10/pi and accident-prone. And yes, you can avoid almost all accidents by paying attention. I've twice gotten out of the way when stopped and the car behind me almost plowed through me because I was watching the rear-view mirror. I've avoided a drunk(?) driver running through the light when I had the green arrow b/c I was watching him. 23 years of driving more 'dangerously' than 99% of you, and just one $600 accident. Why? I stopped paying attention (rule #2: don't get bored & start programming your radio when it's icey).
While I'm up here, I have a message to you bottleneckers: quit it! In fact, do the opposite. If the accident is on the other side of the freeway, quit looking and freakin gun it! If everyone were to gun it AT the bottleneck, guess what, there would no longer be a bottleneck!
Read about the waves:
http://www.smartmotorist.com/traffic-and-safety-guideline/traffic-jams.html
One reason not mentioned is that waves happen because stopping/slowing down is faster than speeding up, if you're lazy. I like to drive through the waves without touching the brakes, but flooring it when I'm at the front of the wave or bottleneck, and I save gas (net) doing it. If everyone (or even a % of us) were to leave space before the wave, then gun it at the front, the wave goes away! The 'gun it' part isn't mentioned in the article, but it makes sense to me. And don't get me wrong, don't gun it so much that you have to hit the brake to not hit the car in front of you, but gun it as much as possible. Also, keep an eye on the traffic colors of your GPS, so you know when your at the front of the wave, if it's that big.
Hrm, there ought to be a 'kill the waves' day to spread awareness.
I'm sure it made sense way back in the mists of time when people used mechanical clocks and watches, but these days just an angle from the horizontal is probably a great deal more comprehensible to the average, non-boomer person.
When I'm on the road, I keep one hand firmly on each handlebar, my fingers lightly gripping both brake levers. If I need to use a hand for something else, I keep my right hand in place, because that's the one that operates the throttle on my motorscooter.
http://alternatives.rzero.com/
I prefer one hand on the wheel and turning the wheel by using my palm. That's how real men drive anyways. 10 and 2, 3 and 9 is for panzys.
7:30 o' clock, arm resting on my left thigh.
I asked an actual school teacher about this recently, and kids still learn how to tell time with the big hand and the little hand, because there are still countless clocks in public places for which they'll need this skill.
And considering the abysmal grasp of geometry demonstrated by adults of all ages, I don't think that "hands at 30 degrees above the horizon" would be understood as clearly as "10 and 2 o'clock".
http://alternatives.rzero.com/
One of my first cars was a HR Holden, one hand on the wheel, the other on the gearstick to stop it popping out of thitd gear.
Vinnie, is that you?
My 2003 Crown Vic's steering wheel essentially mandates a 9-3 grip. I didn't like it because my 97 Crown Vic's steering wheel had spokes that made a 10-2 grip more natural. After I adjusted, the 9-3 feels more natural for city driving, but once I get up to Interstate speeds (on the interstate, not in the city), my left hand drops to 6 and my right hand rests on the seat yearning for a 6-speed shifter knob to rest on.
If yer gonna crash the only position your hands should be is off the steering wheel.
One handed. hand at 12.... Drove like this on my driving test, whislt it was pointed out... i still passed :P
I learned to drive around 2002 in Wisconsin. The instructor there taught us to hold it at 9 and 3, and to keep our thumbs on the outside of the wheel (to avoid ripping them off in a crash). At least some places have been teaching it right for years.
Hand resting on my knee, thumb and forefinger holding the steering wheel at about 5 o'clock. I got power steering, I don't need two hands on the wheel, I need only two fingers.
I am armed because I am free. I am free because I am armed.
I usually hold even lower on the wheel, perhaps 4:30 and 7:30, but I also drive with my seat pushed farther forward than most people like.
sure, your arms are safe, but what about your face?
Keep your thumbs outside of the steering wheel. I was in an accident and broke my thumb. Had to be pinned back together.
I drive with all 4 windows down, the seat way back and tilted backwards even further. Steering wheel pointed towards at my chest with my left index and middle fingers splayed on the 7:30 corner of the wheel. Right arm rests it's elbow on the console until it feels the need to adjust the mad beats my whip pumps.
Someone told he disables the airbag. I won't do that but i have to admit that i'm still alive today because my airbag didnt deployed. I was driving way faster than the speed limit is (in fact more than twice the limit) and a guy in front of me didn't see that i was coming and changed his path to the left( soz my english isnt too great, cant remember the exact word). I only hit him with a few cm of the car but the damage was total for the front right tire+suspension+brake disc+rim+ a lot more stuff. If the airbag had deployed i would've lost control (i still had enough, even that the car was dragging to the right) and crashed a lot worse. And after the slowing down and the accident i was traveling around 120kph. I know lots of you will disagree for what i've done but i'm saying it anyways to point out that sometimes the airbag isnt gonna save you, but do the things a lot worse. PS Like a miracle no one was hurt during that crash.
Drive in such a manner that you don't hit stuff.
Be sufficiently aware of the world around you that other stuff doesn't hit you
Hold the wheel whereever you please.
What I want to know is where to place my knees on the steering wheel while I am texting and operating my Sat Nav or DVD player.
Drivers, what's your approach?
Compile as modules, load dynamically ;-)
Except in hazardous conditions such as heavy rain or snow, I've always driven with only one hand. Positioning depends on whatever's comfortable at the moment. Sometimes I use both hands to make turns but they aren't holding the wheel at the same time.
I'm not sure a driver's wheel airbags has any utility for a driver who wears a proper seatbelt.
Me? I drive with my right hand on the loop-style yoke, and the left one on the throttle. Though I do need to shift the left to the yoke and the right to the gear lever after takeoff for a few seconds in the Hawker Hurricane I see myself flying in my daydreams while I'm driving.
DaveyJJ
Fuck that, you try controlling a car on the limit with straight arms. I guarantee that you will be pulling yourself forward off the seat as you run out of reach at the top of the wheel. Go look at ANY race car drivers arms and then find me one that has been impaled by the wheel. What a terrible recommendation.
Same thing on my bimmer. I drive with hands at 9 3 because that's what the instructor thaught me... The one teaching how to drive on a race track ; )
That said when you're in a turn, you're supposed to *also* have your hand at 9 3 (because that's where you'll be the most likely to save the car / your life / other people's life should the sh*t hit the fan)... So if you get a crash and the airbag goes on while your steering wheel is turned, I very much doubt your hands will be in the "perfect position". Now, granted, most crashes probably end up with people stepping on the brake in a straight line but still...
(*) if you're in a car that only has 360 degree turn for the steering wheel (like a formula one), then you're supposed to turn your hands with the wheel, not to always be at "9 3".
It all depends on the car, specifically how the steering wheel attaches. Some have 3 points, some have 4, some have 2 larger spots - where you just can't grip the wheel right. I usually opt for the position that causes the least fatigue. Typically 3-4 and 8-9. When turning one hand becomes closer to 10 or 2. When driving a long straight road, often just one hand at 6.
1) Airbag provides only an additional 5% safety efficacy from fatality over a 3-point seatbelt
2) Severe disfiguring and disabling injury from auto accidents now come from airbag deployments
3) Airbags were never designed for use in conjunction with seatbelts
So...you finance over 5+ years a safety device which at best works as intended in 5% accident situations. 95% accident situations expensive safety device can easily main, disfigure and disable you. 100% of the time seatbelts are redundant safety system. Yeah...you're paying for those over the life of your loan too.
I know that our local high school driver's ed has been instructing students on the new locations for at least 4-5 years.
-Styopa
The more I hear about them, the more I think I ought to have the airbags disabled in my car. I've tried driving using the hand positions discussed in the article, because this is what they said my kid, who's learning to drive, should do. I feel much more in control of the vehicle with my hands at 10 and 2, and the push-pull technique is just inadequate for any situation requiring handling skills.
"Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past." -- George Orwell
...or, and here's a novel idea, you could pick a technique appropriate to the kind of driving you're doing.
10-2 is nice for long highway driving, since it takes a lot of the weight of my arms off of my shoulders.
9-3 is great on the track, since it gives me a greater range of motion, and gives me more feedback through the wheel. it also places my hands in the perfect position for the paddle shifters.
8-4 I've actually found quite nice in the rain or snow, when traction is reduced, since it lets me drift and fish-tail with greater control when tires slip.
And for comfortable city driving, 10-5 is definitely the way to go. Of course, at those speeds, it really doesn't matter. So leaving my right arm free to shift from the floor, and raising my left arm's elbow to reach the window sill is more important as it reduces stress and focus -- two things which increase road rage and decrease comfort.
The article misses one of the more important tips -- thumb placement, or how to actually grip the steering wheel.
Am I gonna die?
I ride a bike you insensitive clod!
I remember that. It did get a little press. The bodyguard in the
front passenger seat was wearing a belt and lived. Everybody
else got a closed casket funeral.
more cowbell
Somewhere between 5 and 9, usually around 9 on short trips, dragging down to 7 the longer it goes.
It seems to me that the 10 and 2 thing probably derives from a time when cars did not have power steering or even when power steering was less effective than it often is now. We're not *quite* to steer-by-wire yet:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steering#Steer-by-wire
but there has been a continuous evolution from steering-as-force to steering-as-information-input (at least for most ordinary street vehicles).
The reasons for drilling the 10 and 2 thing into people may be mostly irrelevant in many of today's vehicles, which explains why the dangers of the airbag may now overwhelm any other consideration.
G.
and drive with my feet on the wheel. (I have a pet monkey push the pedals)
Vote monkeys into Congress. They are cheaper and more trustworthy.
Hmm... I said "almost straight" which I fail to see as being different than your "slightly bent", so we must be in agreement. The summary said he has his "seat pushed farther forward than most people like", which - if too far forward - could result in him either getting impaled by the steering wheel (before the air bag fully inflates) or having is neck broken by the air bag. It has been documented that short drivers, than pull their seat very far forward are in such dangers.
It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
I'm pretty sure race-car drivers use multi-point restraints and don't have air bags in their vehicles. In addition, I said "almost straight" - to give enough distance for proper air bad inflation. The summary said he has his "seat pushed farther forward than most people like", which - if too far forward - could result in him either getting impaled by the steering wheel (before the air bag fully inflates) or having is neck broken by the air bag. It has been documented that short drivers, than pull their seat very far forward are in such dangers.
It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
I guess I'm in the minority, but I knew this long before I ever got a driver's license. My dad crashed cars for a living, and it's just how airbags work. Seat as far back as you can have it while still reaching the controls, and if you're about to crash, let go of the wheel so the airbag doesn't break your arms. I drive a manual car with no air bags, and I drive either left hand at 12, or left hand at 7. Don't knock it, I've been driving for ten years and never crashed once. Comfort and ability to maneuver are more important than where your hands are when the air bag deploys.
It saves gas and has the added bonus of being cool as shit.
I spend most of my time driving NOT crashing. I'd worry less about where my hands are after a crash and more on where to place my hands to give me the best control of the vehicle so as to AVOID crashing. That might easily be tested in simulators. If I were a betting man, I'd place money more on 10-2 than 6:30-5:30.
Keep Doing Good.
Researchers have determined that the risk zone for driver airbags is the first 2 to 3 inches (5 to 8 cm) of inflation. So, placing yourself 10 inches (25 cm) from your driver airbag gives you a clear margin of safety. Measure this distance from the center of the steering wheel to your breastbone.
Or, http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199807093390219:
A limitation of our study is that the new regulation defines the safe distance as 10 in. (25 cm) from the breastbone to the steering wheel.
or, http://www.wikihow.com/Adjust-Seating-to-the-Proper-Position-While-Driving
Distance from the wheel: There should be a minimal clearance of 10" (and preferably 30cm) between the center of the steering hub and the base of the breastbone (sternum). It should also not be further away that 45cm.
For me and my height, that results in *almost* (but not completely) straight arms in addition to being able to control the pedals properly - not too straight or bent - either is problematic in an accident. Other pages document an ideal arm bend of 120 degrees.
It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
I keep the left elbow indexed on the inside door handle to give the steering wheel some stability when I'm glancing on the sides or behind for lane changes, the left hand ends up around 9:00. The right hand is at around 2:00 with the right elbow in elevated. This works fine for shorter rides, on multi-hour drives my left elbow gets raw, so I'll move it off the inside door handle when I start feeling some discomfort there.
Yes, you do have a point about 4+ point restraints being superior, however IIRC from crash test videos, even a three point belt prevents your torso from travelling forward much.
Isn't the point of 10 and 2 to give you more control , so you don't get in wreck?
Or is the government saying , well your too stupid and you will get in wreck , so put your hands so they don't get hurt. Wonder where race car drivers put there hands.
1 thumb at 6 o'clock, maybe 5:30. The other one is resting on the arm rest.
This is ancient news. I took drivers ed 10 years ago and the instructor said it doesn't really matter where you put your hands, but 10 and 2 is probably bad, as is any position that puts your arms in the path of the airbag (which will break your arms.)
Back in November, I was in a pretty bad car accident while behind the wheel of my 1998 Ford Escort Wagon. Yeah I know, barely enough to even have standard Airbags. I was driving at about 10 and 2 at the time, and when the airbag deployed, my left arm was spared pain because the impact came from the right and threw me to the left. My Right arm however bounced off the Driver's airbag and I ended up basically punching the passenger side airbag, and ripped open my hand a bit in the process. I Probably could've knocked someone out cold with the force that my hand traveled with.
Long story short, the best defense is not driving in New Jersey. I was hit by a guy who blew a red light. The cop tried to pin the accident on me. Thank god the other guy was honest and backed me up when I told the cop that I didn't hit the other guy.
I had a head on at about 35. I saw it coming and had death grip on the wheel. The air bag did hit my arms, felt like they were slapped with a 2x4. Left bruises. However... they are still firmly attached to my body and at no point did I feel them trying to leave me lol. In fact, the force wasn't even enough to make me lose my grip or bend my elbows. It was just a slap, not a firm force.
I don't understand any of this. Can someone give me a computer science analogy for this car problem? It always seems to work so well the other way around right?
I want this account deleted.
I don't worry about that shit... the first thing I do whenever I buy a new car is disable the fucking shotgun shell in the center of the steering wheel in front of me. Then I pull the bulb out of the dash that lights up when the airbag is not working, so I don't have it staring at me. When I go to resell the car, I reinstall the bulb and hook the airbag back up.
Fuck airbags! Fuck them, and the morons who made them, and the assholes who mandated them. It's just another thousand dollars to the price of the car for things that make it less safe, and facilitate the manufacture of cars that are less safe in a crash. Airbags kill more people than they save, I really can't see why they are still required, I guess someone paid someone off, that's usually the explanation for bullshit like this.
Automakers who say, 'sure, our cars fold like origami cranes in a wreck, but this bag full of hot, exploding gas will save you' remind me of the teacher who reassures you that he always wears a condom when teaching your kids. It's not that we don't want him to be safe, but there is no reason for him to be wearing that kind of safety equipment for the activity we EXPECT him to be performing, teaching third-graders math. The airbag is the same thing. Wear the seatbelt properly, low and snug, drive defensively, and you don't need that fucking bag of air that just makes the vehicle more expensive.
Think of it as being like if they required anyone selling canned food to include a little packet of antidote to botulism toxin with each can they sell, so that they can use thinner steel in construction, and don't have to worry about food-born illnesses their products might cause, because, hey... there's a packet of medicine attached to each can that will cure you if you get sick from eating this if it's contaminated.
That's not the way to end people getting food poisoning, but that's what auto manufacturers do now.
Hey wait a minute !! All this discussion/yak on hand positions???
The real point of holding on to the steering wheel is to steer the car, isn't it?
So maybe, just maybe the problem is with the airbags? Huh???
Redesign the dang airbags !! Oh but wait a minute, they already have been made to government specifications, haven't they. So is there any hope?
Get real slash-dot
If I tie my dick to the steering wheel and just steer with my hips? That's the dick-o'clock position, or dickstynine.
they taught us to use 9 and 3 or 8 and 4, whichever we prefer. I usually drive with right hand at 2 or 4, but when I turn, am driving in a narrow lane, etc. I'll drive with both hands.
I don't really give a lot of weight to what they taught at driver's ed. It seemed like they were only interested in turning us into as cautious drivers as they possibly could, nevermind congestion. e.g., they said we should have at least a car's length between the next car when stopped in traffic. I'd hate to see everyone do that at a busy intersection! Another one, from my sister: How many seconds should you have between you and the car in front of you while on the freeway? 10 seconds.
You know what I wish they would have told me? To mind when I'm going slower than surrounding traffic and holding people up, and then to either speed up or move to the slow lane. I learned that one on my own.
There was at least one part of driver's ed I enjoyed though. The teacher told us of a kid who was on a drive with his instructor. He was going down the highway, when a bunny moved onto the road some ways ahead. The kid asked his instructor what he should do, to which he replied, "You're just gonna have to hit it." The kid was a bit nervous, but aknowledged it. Fortunately, the bunny ended up hopping to the side of the road before they reached it. However, not wanting to disobey his instructor, the kid swerves off the road and hits the bunny. It took us a good 5-10 minutes to stop laughing... I guess the instructor should've been more specific!
Anybody want a peanut?
All my clocks are digital, you insensitive clod!
On those occasions where I drive with both hands on the wheel, I go a high/low approach. Generally about 4:30 & 10:30.
Seriously though, I think I've been at 9 and 3 for most of the 20 years I've been driving. It's somewhat more comfortable, especially when you're doing 3000 miles cross country. If I'm shifting a lot, it'll be 9 and shifter. That's pretty comfortable too.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
We bring personal devices to the company network, install screensavers and cool programs from the internet and write our passwords down to post-its on our screen because it's convenient! Don't tell us "You're doing it wrong" when it's YOUR responsibility to come up with good designs that accommodate to our every desire while keeping us perfectly safe!
I was in a driving safety training a few years back. The instructor noticed I put my hands in the "react quickly" position when approaching the machine that yanked the hind wheels into a slip, while I relaxed immediately afterwards.
He said: How are you going to react to a sudden slip in real life if you're driving in that laid-back position?
My reaction to that is: We'll I'd be dead tired after the first half hour of driving in the super-tense position. I'd probably not react at all. Driving is all about managing your abilities. You're able to concentrate 100% for a certain amount of time. If you try to keep 100% concentrated all the time, you'll be too worn down by the time something interesting happens. As long as the "relaxed" pose and state-of-mind is able to recognize the interesting parts in advance, it pays off to be relaxed when you can and focus your attention on the interestings parts.
One of my hands is in the center of the steering wheel, hitting the A button and jumping over the problem.
> Wrong. Unless compared to ancient ABS systems,
> even professional race car drivers can't beat ABS.
For braking they can. I've driven with race drivers and when asked they show how ABS goes haywire when it can't properly "guess" parameters, and how it can bork your attempt at braking or avoiding obstacle. Worst part is that you can't control it - when you go through the course most of the time it will guess right, but a few times in the same conditions it will do surprisingly bad. I am talking about ABS installed in production cars, not racing systems.
As far as beating ABS goes even I can show how to beat it easily on icy surface. ABS will keep wheels unlocked forever because they keep blocking. Slamming on brakes without ABS and keeping wheels locked is more effective here. Tested on a professional course.
Taking quote from the same forum you did:
ChrisTipper: "when Prost drove with it he said it made the car still unstable and unprediable underbraking in the wet."
> "...The Audi R8 GT3s..."
You can't compare sport systems to what we drive. Audi R8 has "race ABS and minutely adjustable traction control (ASR)".
Also reply to this post on forum you quoted was:
"Not sure what your point is. The BMW also raced at Spa 1000km and N24 and used ABS for the N24 only."
> "...Ferrari F430 GTC..."
Again, racing quality ABS and traction control. Not your run-of-the-mill ABS-only car.
> "decent ABS system is a net benefit on any car be it road or race"
Exactly!
This quote does NOT say that ABS will _SHORTEN_ braking distance, it says it will benefit. I wrote that ABS provides benefits, and the main one is in fact having more control over the car. Your quote does not contradict that, just supports me :-)
> no driver can individually modulate 4 wheels like a
> modern 4 channel ABS can.
Here you write about traction control aka electronic stability control (ESP) rather than ABS. You are absolutely right that driver can't do that. Those features will help to keep control when car begins to skid after turning wheel, not only while braking. Again - keep control, save car from spinning, give driver a better chance to avoid an obstacle. Not just brake in a straight line.
PS: to make sure we attribute - all your quotes are from F1 Technical forum, posted there by users ubrben, Patrickl, Pandamasque and others.
for taking my hand from the wheel and shifting from first to second during a left turn in an intersection.
I learned my lesson, drive how they want you to when you are taking your test.
120 characters ought to be enough for anyone
ELBOW leaning into the horn, blasting out loud enough to let everyone in the immediate vicinity -- yes, even that oncoming train whose tracks you're sitting on-- know it's THAT rat bastid's fault, not yours!
WARNING: Smartphones have side effects--most of them undocumented.
I don't know about everyone else, but my driving instructor told me after 3 or so lessons that according to the official way to hold the steering wheel was slightly higher from how I held. Then he said I should just hold it however felt comfortable because they don't look at that during the exam anyway.
It's not like I pretended they weren't quotes written by other people! That's merely what I found today while at work. I have heard for years that race drivers have been unable to outbrake ABS, let alone alone drivers with less skill and inferior vehicles.
:D).
The reply to the F430 example is a lack of comprehension. The point is, the rules didn't allow ABS at the Spa 1000, yet with limited time between races, ABS was fitted for the 24 hours of Nurburgring (I'd just like to add that one of the finest moments of my life was doing 8 laps of it on my motorbike
Now I am happy to have contributed to your assertion that ABS = control, because I believe that too; my beef is that you're saying it doesn't deliver shorter stopping distances in a straight line. I maintain it does (I hope you haven't forgotten that you said "ABS does not shorten braking distance, as many people think").
As for the ESP, no! I am *not* talking about ESP. I am talking about multichannel ABS that can modulate individual wheels in response to wheel speed sensors for the purpose of maintaining wheel rotation while braking, NOT in response to yaw sensors and steering angle (which is basic ESP). For example, when one of your front wheels passes a bump while braking, multichannel ABS will unlock only that wheel. The only recourse that the most amazing driver that has ever graced the planet has, is to reduce brake pressure on all wheels in order to recover the one. That's a common straight line braking example.
I don't know what the difference between race and road ABS is, but I've experienced ABS on a variety of cars since the late 90s, and it has definitely improved a *lot* since the old jackhammer lock-unlock. These days on good cars it's more like a skilled driver with 10x faster reflexes and four brake pedals.
The steering wheels is a thing of the past. With a side-stick the pedals as useless too (maybe just a redundant break pedal ?).
Your hands should be kept at shoulder width and shoulder height. For some that's 10/2, for others 9/3 (though that's pretty rare). Generally it's between those two for most people. If the bag deploys, it'll inflate within the bends in your elbows, and potentially push your hands outwards towards the side. You might end up with bruised knuckles, but that'll be the extent of it.
jas (15+ years on the race track, and have done the accident thing)
Jason Van Patten
I drive with my hands at pi^2 and e.
I touch the wheel as little as possible to avoid potential injury from THE SAFETY MECHANISM!! Seriously though, I would imagine that most people are not calmly holding the wheel at any clock like positions as they ram into something. Most likely they are screaming and turning the wheel like crazy to avoid the impending death they can see all too clearly out of their windshield. I would like to know, though, how exactly moving your hands an inch, inch and a half down the wheel will suddenly protect your arms from the airbag? I mean seriously after all you are in a two-ton metal machine hurtling down the road faster than anything in nature can make you go and the only things that can stop you are some metal flakes squeezed tightly against the hub mechanism in the wheel, friction from the turning of the metal on metal in said wheel, or the sudden stopping power of another two-ton machine hurtling down the road. How safe exactly do you really think this can get?
how is this news? it's been a common knowledge for quite some time, or was my driving instructor ahead of the curve?
How about paying attention to where you are going and stop screwing around with gadgets and worrying about what your speed is? If you're sitting still and some text-monkey is going to slam into you, one hand should be blowing the horn and the other flipping them off.
If a poorly designed airbag (no matter WHERE it's installed) maims me or mine, that company will be subject to the Lawsuit From Hell.
There's no reason why a car company can't design a driver's airbag that won't maim you when you're using the most effective (repeat, MOST EFFECTIVE) steering wheel position. If they fail .. they pay for their bad engineering.
the only time i use 8 and 4 is when im driving with my knees
I push the seat as far back as I can and still have full reach of the controls. I put on all the belts they give me. I pull them snug.
I'm also a bad driver, I've been in several medium severity accidents, and I can tell you first hand, the more physically secure you are, the better. And having your legs straight-ish means they flop around less in an accident. When an accident occurs, your strength means NOTHING. You WILL flop around like a rag doll.
Oh, and I'm a 9-3 guy, generally a 3-only guy. The hot gas from the air bags have burned me, but I've never directly contacted inflated airbags.
Be careful out there, I might be driving down your road some day. :)
I don't use the steering wheel. I just cover my eyes with my hands and stomp on the accelerator as hard as I can. Surprisingly, I always make it to my destination 90% of the time.
One thing to note is that air bags in the US have a more powerful explosive charge than those in european cars. Its to protect those not wearing seat belts which is more common in the US.
That you minimize risk to yourself in the event of an accident?
Or that you minimize risk to others by having the most control over the car?
Hold your hands out in front of you... now relax them. Your palms are probably now facing slightly downward, and also slightly towards eachother. This muscularly neutral position can be sustained for prolonged periods without experiencing any RSI. When on a steering wheel, this relaxed positure corresponds, very closely, to the "ten and two" position that was taught 25 years ago or more. Because it is muscularly neutral, it enjoys the benefit of being the easiest to control - since one will not generally experience any strain in such positions, and there is no extra work involved in moving ones hands out of that position to respond to more immediate threats.
I can appreciate wanting to minimize danger to oneself while driving, but I would think that it might be more prudent, looking at the big picture, to have the most control over your car so that you yourself are driving as safely as possible, and do not get into an accident that could have been prevented by you in the first place if your reaction had been quicker.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
I also only have two wheels and all you guys are stationary object blurring in my peripheral vision :-)
One, try holding your arms in this position for two hours or more. And no, the wheel is not shaped for that I've tried.
Two, better steering capability means you have to keey your hands steady more. Which is quite tiring with today's power steering.
Please fix the airbags instead or give me the old wheels.
Left hand,; thumb and two fingers at 9:00. Right hand free
Two hands on the wheel promotes driver fatigue. Holding both arms in front of you is not a natural or comfortable position in gravity. Two hand driving is not needed in a reasonably well maintained modern car; they go straight, they have power steering, etc.
Don't think one hand driving is safe? Learn to fly any airplane and that's exactly what you'll be taught... one hand on the controls and a light touch.
I noticed this girl with a cool scar. I asked where she got the scar. She said she was in a car accident and when the airbag went off it set her shirt on fire!
The accident was minor, the airbag in that case did more damage than the accident.
I only look human.
My mother is a halfling and my dad is an ogre, so that makes me an Ogreling
9 and 3 on straight roads, 8 and 4 on bends... better control on bends when you "push " the steering wheel from 8 or 4.
Left hand at 12 or 6 or 9 (if arm on rest or window ledge), Right hand always on stick ready to downshift when necessary (has saved my ass countless times when idiots jump out of nowhere... or things falling off of trucks - like a tire or telephone pole).
9 and 3 with the seat far enough foward that your wrist wrests on the top of the steering wheel without you reaching or lurching forward is how you are supposed to sit in a car to be able to maintain maximum control :D
I follow the 10 and 2 suggestions:
Left hand on the 2 and right hand on the 10.
It's just a little bit tiring.
One hand 6 at o'clock, sliding the hand to the 4/8 o'clock position for turning. I was under the assumption this is how most drove outside of driver's ed class.
Seems like the most convenient way to drive imho and the one handed pivot point turning seems far faster than two handed grip switching.
Now I have one more reason for this driving method, keep the air-bag from breaking my arms.
I dual-wield wheel and gearbox.
in a relaxed position and steer with my penis.
Whatever happened to the knob attached to the steering wheel at about 10 o'clock? These were popular in the 50s and 60s, allowed one to steer with one hand. You could use the other hand to keep your honey happy, who would be sitting next to you. No stinking consoles to get in the way.
Drivers Ed also teaches one to not cut left turns short, come to complete stops at stop signs, and signal when turning and changing lanes. How many people follow these fundamentals of good driving?
The only study to date on this is a NY state study run in 2002. It compared the rate of facial injuries when the occupants by method of restraint (seat belt only, airbag only, airbag and seatbelt, neither). The rates came out favouring those in cars restrained by both seat belt and air bag.
according the study "... Individuals using airbags and seat belts sustained facial injuries at a rate of 1 in 449, compared with a rate of 1 in 40 for individuals who did not use seat belts or airbags (P.001). Those using airbags alone sustained facial injuries at the intermediate rate of 1 in 148, and victims using seat belts without airbags demonstrated an injury rate of 1 in 217 (P.001). ...". This study talks about rates but fails to give actual numbers. I also think that drivers almost always will say that they were wearing a seatbelt, even when they were not. Airbags are pretty hard to lie about.
One thing the study did not factor was the age of the car. I'd expect that the group of "seatbelt only" users included cars that were older on the average (due to cars not having been equipped with OEM only airbags ), leading to injury differences due to factors like newer design, cars being in better shape, and probably more affluent drivers (yeah rich people still get hurt, but are less likely to drive while impaired, in better health, etc).
I'd be very cautious on saying airbags and seat belts are so much more effective than seat belts alone, given the noise and violence of a triggered airbag, there may be situations where the seat belt alone would have resulted in less injury.
I steer with my knees, while texting the D&D group my next action.
I remember discussing this on Usenet in the nineties. This really is old news. The only surprise is that driver's ed might still be teaching 10 and 2. The issue was, and still is, that there really was a reason to have your hands in that position, as it maximizes control of the vehicle. By making steering wheel airbags mandatory, the collateral damage is that we can't safely hold the steering wheel in the optimal way. We have relinquished control of our vehicle to some degree for some perceived additional safety. I think statistically this makes impacts measurably less lethal while making them measurably more likely.
Also at the time, there was a set of recommendations that full power airbags should not be used for people under 5'3" (as you would likely have your seat dangerously far forward) and over a certain age (I think it was 70). This was about the same time as the recommendation came out to not have a baby carrier in the front passenger seat unless you could turn off the airbag (a feature that was just becoming available in some two seat vehicles). Short people (my wife is 5'2") could apply for an exemption to have their steering wheel airbag disabled.
It's important to remember that the original NHTSA spec for air bags was to protect a medium-height male around 40 who was not wearing his seat belt. At the time, that was the majority of drivers. When the number of woman drivers spiked and the baby boomers started to age and baby carriers became more popular, problems with that paradigm started to surface.
My solution is to carefully maintain a car that doesn't have a steering wheel airbag. Your mileage, as always, may vary.
Personally, I think the more information we get out there about how violently airbags deploy (they always show it in super slow motion on tv -- it actually goes BANG like a shotgun shell) and the caustic nature of the propellant, (I have an ophthalmologist report somewhere from the nineties about the sharp increase in certain kinds of eye injuries) will have a positive effect on driving given that it's so difficult to legally disable them. I want every driver to imagine that airbag as a big ol' knife pointing out of the steering wheel at their chests. Imagine how slowly and gingerly people would drive with that mindset.
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
I've seen TV advertisements for the Scion recently, touting the 11 air bags in the vehicle.
Which poses the question, If the one steering wheel airbag in a normal car can break 2 arms and maybe some ribs,
then how many bones will break when all 11 airbags in a Scion inflate at once ?
Yeah,
That whole hands at whatever is totally overrated. With a hot dog (or taco) in one hand and my cell in another, I just don't have any more hands to use for driving. So its both knees at about 5 and 7 o'clock. The only accidents I've had so far are spilling food on my lap or my phone autocorrecting "rapp" to "rape", as in "I'm listening to rape music right now." Darn Auto Correct!
I'm in the USA, where we drive on the RIGHT side of the road..---right having a double-meaning of the side, as well as "correct" :-)
On Feb 6 2011, I was in a 60mph front-end collision with a girl that chose to make a two-lane right-hand turn in front of my lane. Both front airbags deployed and I lived.--duh, obviously.
Where were my hands? Prior to thinking "holy $h1t!" and slamming into the girl's car, I had the right hand on the shifter, and left hand at about 8:00--This is how I normally drive. I believe I had enough time to grab the wheel with both hands in order to hold both sides of the wheel as I went for the brake pedal. I don't know if I got that far as it happened so fast.
Being 6'1", I sit as far back from the wheel as I can, just to ensure adequate leg-room. In this case, it paid off as I never hit the airbag with my face. The seatbelt restrained me before I could get that far. I don't recall my arms hurting at all from any possible air-bag induced throwback, so it would be hard to say where exactly I had the wheel gripped.
At the scene, and for about 4 weeks afterward, my chest hurt dead-center where the seatbelt crosses the breastbone. It felt like someone punched me in the chest HARD. It hurt to sneeze, cough, and laugh while it was healing. Thankfully there appears to be no permanent damage.
My vote overall though would be to agree that 10:00 and 2:00 are not the right spots in a modern airbag-equipped car.
Also, tell your passenger wife/girlfriend that driving with their feet up on the dash in the passenger front seat to do their toe-nails, or just to relax is also a bad I ideal. I'd hate to see what happens when that passenger airbag goes off and sends their ankles through the windshield.
Seriously, the fact that this thread even appeared on this site worries me. 10 and 2 is such a BS hand position that it's frightening to know people still use it. If your hands aren't at 9 and 3 and you aren't using push/pull technique, you're literally one aggressive maneuver away from crashing.
Race car drivers use 9 and 3 because it's the optimum position to react to an emergency situation while also giving you a wide range of motion with the wheel under normal situations, and you can use push/pull to turn the wheel while never putting your arms in a weak position (in case you hit debris, etc on the road).
Driver training really needs to be stepped up around the world and needs to be a multi-year course. You're litterally putting peoples lives in danger when you drive a vehicle, and yet most countries (especially US and Canada) will give almost anyone a license if they can pass the most basic and ridiculous written and driving test. Even a motorcycle riders test requires more technical information (most of which is about avoiding bad car and truck drivers)!
Seat back (But not ghetto back), lumbar adjustment all the way up/on/forward, rear of seat up (if possible) and seat moved up. 9 and 3 generally. (For reference, I'm 180cm tall, med build)
I usually have lefty at 12 o'clock and righty on the shifter, because.. *puts shades on* driving manual is so much cooler! B-) and fun!
When I'm cruising though, ol' lefty takes a leisurely position at 6. Ya gotta get a good cruise in every once in a while, amirite?
My blood hurts...
KILL NHTSA FUNDING!
Don't you think...? Or don't you?
I've been driving with my hands at 4:30 and 7:30 for years. BTW speaking of driving incorrectly, I noticed a lot of people don't understand at a 4 way stop, the "right of way" goes to the person that stops first.
one's got a drink,
the other's got a smoke,
steering with my knees
so your momma dont choke!
Assuming seat belts are worn, side impact airbags are still helpful for preventing head injuries. But I suspect steering wheel airbags aren't as useful - and could also cause significant injury as per this story.
You may not be driving in a standard crash test dummy position - turning the steering wheel etc.
you should hold your steering wheel at all times when you are driving, not just four times a day.
old dog
ride a motorcycle no seat belts no air bag 135 horses 600 lb love it.