Best Buy Scans Drivers License For Returns — No More Allowed For 90 Days

rullywowr writes "A customer with a defective Blu-Ray disc returns to the Best Buy store where he purchased it. After having his driver's license scanned into the system, he is now banned from returning/exchanging goods for 90 days. This is becoming one of the latest practices big-box stores are using to limit fraud and abuse of the return system — for example, the people who buy a giant TV before the big game and then return it on Monday. Opponents feel this return-limiting concept has this gone too far, including the harvesting of your personal data."

Comments

When people abuse prices go up

[CoderExpert]

It's quite obvious that people are abusing the system and that results in increased prices for everyone. As someone who doesn't abuse that, I welcome the move so we honest people get things cheaper. Screw those who ruin things for everyone else.

Re:When people abuse prices go up

[Soporific]

I can see this as a good thing if it's for similar or big ticket items, but a bad thing if it's for DVD's, etc. -DNRTFA

~S

Re:When people abuse prices go up

[Ferzerp]

You assume that the store has the right to refuse a return if you refuse to provide this information or if you're a frequent shopper that has more than one purchase of faulty goods. The agreement with the store is to exchange your money for a working product. If the product doesn't work, and the store refuses to refund or exchange it, they may have issues.

They may have a leg to stand on if it were refunds only, but the summary specifically includes exchanges in to this mix.

Re:When people abuse prices go up

[AvitarX]

Interesting,

When I last purchased a bluetooth ear piece, I went to Best Buy because of their good return policy. I had went online and narrowed my potential list to 3, and was buying them one at a time and returning until I found one I liked. I only had to return one, but had the second sucked I would of returned it too.

They are really eating into their advantage vs the internet here.

Re:When people abuse prices go up

[kidgenius]

And do you have a copy of your receipt that shows that the store and you made the agreement to which you refer? No? Then too bad. Otherwise, they don't need your info, and they aren't saying they need it. For instance, Target only uses your DL when you don't have receipts.

Re:When people abuse prices go up

[Githaron]

It's quite obvious that people are abusing the system and that results in increased prices for everyone. As someone who doesn't abuse that, I welcome the move so we honest people get things cheaper. Screw those who ruin things for everyone else.

The policy is unnecessarily invasive and it will easily hurt legitimate customers. While it might be rare, it is completely possible that a legitimate customer will purchase at least two items in a 90 day window and more than one of them ends up being defective.

They need to find a better way to prevent fraud.

Re:When people abuse prices go up

[Caratted]

Your drift is caught. However, this isn't really about anybody screwing anybody. The undertones of TFS should be pretty clear: Their business model is failing - creating more invasive measures against fraud is exactly what they need to focus on last if they've any fantasy of staying afloat. Which they don't (have this fantasy - as evidenced in the relatively complete ineptitude of their management). So, they will continue blame their customers again, and again, until the mirror is gone because the stockholders broke it in a fit of rage, and all that is left is the smoke.

Re:When people abuse prices go up

[Anonymous Coward]

So if your second TV is also defective, you can't return it because this 90 day delay outlasts the defective product return time.

There are situations where this is a bad idea, but I have nothing against trying to crack down on the 'free rental' or 'free replacement' scams that drive up prices for honest buyers. The proeblem is, I don't know if there is any solution that won't have a greater detrimental effect on honest buyers than on scammers. Repeat scammers should be relatively easy to recognize in some data mining, so you can give them restricted return rights, maybe that would be the best way to handle it.

I'm also curious just how much product is stolen through swapped return scams, I've heard it discussed, but nothing resembling an official dollar value.

Re:When people abuse prices go up

[magarity]

As someone who doesn't abuse that, I welcome the move so we honest people get things cheaper

Are you someone who might honestly need to return two items at two different times in the course of three months?

A number of less draconian methods come to mind: A) restocking fee for opened items that are not defective. B) Issuing a second (...nth) refund via check mailed from the refund processing center in Mongolia.

But returns are only allowed for 30 days, so buy a second item within 59 days of your first return and you're stuck with it and that sounds rather nasty for a business in the US. Of course, it's all relative. I lived a couple of years in China and once purchased there, it's yours. Nobody takes returns in the first place.

Re:When people abuse prices go up

[Dahamma]

Actually, stores aren't required to take returns - if an item is defective it's the manufacturer's responsibility to honor the warranty. Stores take the returns because if some do and some don't, unless there are other significant reasons to prefer the ones that don't no one will bother shopping there (which hopefully happens to Best Buy after this crap).

What they don't have the right to do is state a return policy and then change the policy on you after you buy something. It's not very clear if that's what happened or not, though...

Re:When people abuse prices go up

[marcosdumay]

Yep. I really don't belive that denying refunds or exchange will fly.

What they can do is to make the process more complex if you got a refund recently, like actualy testing the product you are claiming is broken,

Re:When people abuse prices go up

[cpu6502]

Well said.

If the item is genuinely defective, stores have credit card agreements that REQUIRE them to accept the item for return or exchange. No exceptions.

Even if the store still refuses, you can just mail the item back to the store, use delivery confirmation, and then provide the DC number to your credit card. You will get refunded the money. And the store will lose the money regardless of any 90 day or 3-strike policy.

BTW this is why I like amazon and ebay/paypal - no hassles. Though I've received a lot of junk over the years from dishonest sellers, so far I've not lost any money (except for return postage). Just recently I bought a used Wii that was never delivered and amazon gave me a $105 gift card only two days later. I already spent that cash on another item (kindle w/ web browser).

Re:When people abuse prices go up

[tripleevenfall]

Presumably, it's one unique item per 90 days.

This is not a new policy. I bought a Kindle Fire on release day and ended up returning it - they scanned my DL then. This was November of 2011.

Re:When people abuse prices go up

[CoderExpert]

Actually, I buy maybe one new item or two per year. And I do have the money to buy more, but I almost never have any need. What the hell are you buying if you need to buy new electronics all the time?

Re:When people abuse prices go up

[mcavic]

The store may not have to take a return, but then I can go to my news station and report my experience with the store. Honoring the return would be cheaper than negative publicity.

It's true that the manufacturer is responsible for their products. But then again, I'm not doing business with the manufacturer. I'm doing business with the store.

Re:When people abuse prices go up

[cpu6502]

What was wrong with the Kindle tablet?

Forgot to add to my post below: No hassle buying from amazon/paypal is why online retailers are succeeding, and restrictive buying is why Best Buy is failing. Buyers want an easy experience for returns, not a hard one.

Re:When people abuse prices go up

[quangdog]

Will this cut down on abuse of their return policies? Perhaps. Will it result in lower prices? Definitely not.

Am I the only one that is very concerned about the privacy of my personally identifiable information on something like my driver's license? Businesses who ask me for items such as my social security number or driver's license to conduct a transaction lose me as a customer. I'm unwilling to let my personal information enter their sales databases housed who-knows-where and accessed by some pimply faced geek-squad dropout.

Best Buy has been in the news frequently lately, and none of it has been good. Some have said here that they'll be out of business w/in 5 years. I give them less than 1.

Re:When people abuse prices go up

[Flammon]

I absolutely would agree if the system was honest and fair. Unfortunately, consumer's would never see the savings, they'd be be pocketed by the greedy corporations.

Re:When people abuse prices go up

[Anonymous Coward]

The guy did A LOT OF RETURN ACTIVITY:

Peel said he had several returns after Christmas, then a few other returns and exchanges — all with a receipt. That, apparently, was enough to put him on The Retail Equation's most-wanted list and Best Buy's no-returns-or-exchanges-for-90-days list.

The Retail Equation says its consumer profiles use frequency of returns, dollar amounts, whether a return-receipt was involved and purchase history. It does not use information on age, race, gender, nationality, marital status or whether the consumer is a Yankees or Red Sox fan.

Re:When people abuse prices go up

[Anonymous Coward]

That depends on the jurisdiction. My province has consumer laws that specifically require goods be sold in merchantable quality, and that defects be corrected by the seller within X days. If I buy a defective TV from Best Buy, they are 100% responsible for correcting the situation. This may be an exchange though, IIRC supporting refunds isn't mandatory.

Re:When people abuse prices go up

[The Archon V2.0]

A) restocking fee for opened items that are not defective

Now THERE is a way to piss people off. Not saying I don't think it's an idea, but it makes the returns desk into a semiregular battleground of "I never used it!" or "It didn't fit!" or "I just needed to see the color!" or "I'm in a hurry, why are you plugging it in? Just give me my money back!"

Re:When people abuse prices go up

[viperidaenz]

Where I'm from it is the store that makes the agreement with the customer, not the manufacture. Its covered by the Consumer Guarantees Act. Not only must the product not be defective, it must also be fit for the purpose it was sold for and last a "reasonable" amount of time.

Re:When people abuse prices go up

[AnttiV]

That is probably wildly different from location to location. For example, here in Finland, any store is required by the law to handle any returns/warranty. The store you bought the product from is required and responsible for all exchanges and repairs the product in question needs while under warranty, to the extent that it shall not cost anything to the customer.

Re:When people abuse prices go up

[dgatwood]

Actually, stores aren't required to take returns...

At least in California, that's not true. Under sections 1792-1795.8 of California Civil Code, unless the seller explicitly disclaims a warranty by attaching something to the product itself that explicitly states that the product is being sold as-is with no warranty. Otherwise, as a general rule, the seller must accept the product back for a minimum of 30 days, by law.

Re:When people abuse prices go up

[countach]

I don't know where you live and what the law is there, but I think this is a fable that stores would like you to think. Imagine if you had to research what little manufacturer in western China made the widget you bought, and you had to contact them to get your widget fixed. Nope, that's not what the law says.

Re:When people abuse prices go up

[badpool]

I'm not sure what you're saying. At least for me, shipping an item back is much less convenient than driving to the store.

Re:When people abuse prices go up

[Galestar]

Actually, stores aren't required to take returns

Not according to the laws where I live - any probably any contract law where you live. Buying a product from a merchant is a contract, and said contract includes an implicit understanding that the product is of merchantable quality. If the product is defective, the contract is void and the price you paid for it must be returned.

Re:When people abuse prices go up

[slack_justyb]

but a bad thing if it's for DVD's

I think the problem is that people forget consumer protection laws. If something does not work out of box it fails merchantability (see UCC Article 2 subsection 2-314 paragraph 2 for a clearer picture.)

DVDs can and do have manufactoring flaws, I reject the notion that exercising the right to merchantability requires the party to enter into agreements with third party services. I can see where this kind of monitoring service would be great for items that are still in working condition, but if it is broke, the person who sold it to you, unless stated "as-is", has the implied duty to repair and if it cannot be repaired, replace the item in question.

Consumers should reject this whole notion on bad-out-of-box items, especially Blu-Rays and DVDs.

Re:When people abuse prices go up

[pla]

Actually, stores aren't required to take returns - if an item is defective it's the manufacturer's responsibility to honor the warranty.

Most US states have non-disclaimable "warrant of merchantability" laws for anything represented as "new" - Which means, in summary, that the store guarantees that they have sold you new, fully-functional merchandise. So yes, they have to take it back, end of story.

That said, good luck getting that enforced this without paying more in court costs than most consumer goods.

Re:When people abuse prices go up

[Flammon]

And they keep on paying themselves millions. I don't know what Brian Dunn was paid but I'm sure it was close to his predecessor.

Bradbury "Brad" Anderson (born 1949) is the former CEO and Vice Chairman of consumer electronics retailer Best Buy. He retired on 6/22/11 and was replaced by Brian J. Dunn.[1] In fiscal 2006, he earned a salary of $1,164,283 and a bonus of $2,692,250. His annual compensation for fiscal year 2007 was $5.6 million, including $1,172,995 in salary, plus $2,650,969 in incentive-plan compensation.[2] In 2008, Anderson earned $49.3 million in total compensation, $1,172,995 in salary, $1,994,092 in incentive-plan compensation, stock awards of $413,635 and no option awards, and $46.08 million in value from exercising 1.05 million stock options.[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brad_Anderson_(executive)

Re:When people abuse prices go up

[InvisiBill]

And do you have a copy of your receipt that shows that the store and you made the agreement to which you refer? No? Then too bad. Otherwise, they don't need your info, and they aren't saying they need it. For instance, Target only uses your DL when you don't have receipts.

Except that they are indeed saying that. Return & Exchange Policy

1. Include all original packing materials, manuals and accessories
2. Bring your receipt or packing slip and a valid photo ID.

When you return or exchange an item in store, we require a valid photo ID.

Re:When people abuse prices go up

[Aighearach]

In Oregon they can't refuse a return for 14 days, 30 for defects.

Re:When people abuse prices go up

[Keith Mickunas]

Amazon provides you a return label. You seal up the box, put on the label, drop it at a UPS Store or some other such place. No lines, less fuss.

Granted for me there's a UPS Store on my way to work, so it's easier than most other stores, but even if that wasn't the case, the lack of waiting in line is a plus. Particularly at Fry's, where every return has to be approved by multiple people, and sometimes you have to take a form back to the register to get your actual money or credit back. While Fry's is good about taking just about anything back for any reason, the process is a nuisance.

Re:When people abuse prices go up

[arth1]

So if your second TV is also defective, you can't return it because this 90 day delay outlasts the defective product return time.

No, presumably, defective items can always be exchanged.
It's high time that USA also gets "All sales are final" rules, like most of the world.
Having people return fully working items that then have to be sold cheap drives up prices for all of us who don't play that game.

Re:When people abuse prices go up

[Matheus]

I'm glad AC's comment got modded into visibility. He's apparently the only one who RTFA. This is not an across the board policy for all purchased merchandise. This is a "probation" of sorts that people who fail the analytics get put into to reduce at least the frequency of fraud.

As stated in the article they accept over 99% of all returns. Only people who show a pattern of potentially illegitimate returns get put on this limitation.

A lot of people are crying foul for a variety of reasons... maybe this isn't the best method but it's about all they have and they are literally losing Billions to a pretty damn widespread abuse of their extremely friendly return policy... so give them a little credit for trying. Other policies such as well advertised prohibitions on returning Big Screen TVs around super bowl time have been in place for years. (Yes sir... you can purchase a TV right now but we're just saying that we will charge you an automatic restocking fee if you return it no matter the condition or reason.) those methods were not sufficient.

Best Buy has a lot of problems to fix not the least of which is the decimation of their business model by internet retailers. That being said there are a lot of people who are going to legitimately miss them if they do go out of business. (There goes your free "demo room" and "rental shop" or just place I can grab something that I need "right now" not shipping time.) Something to consider in the midst of all this Best Buy bashing.

Re:When people abuse prices go up

[ad0gg]

Especially during xmas, everyone is returning their gifts. Hopefully this ID requirement puts a stop to that.

Re:When people abuse prices go up

[bvimo]

>Bring your receipt or packing slip and a valid photo ID.
How is that requirement interpreted?

Bring your (receipt OR packing slip) AND (a valid photo ID).
or
Bring your (receipt) OR (packing slip AND a valid photo ID).

Re:When people abuse prices go up

[dontmakemethink]

How does this solve the problem though? I've twice bought GPS units for my tour van and returned them at the end of the tour because they either had bad maps or didn't track accurately. If a DL scan was required to return them, I would refuse because it's absurd, and then never shop there again. Even if I allowed them to scan my DL just to get that one return, I still wouldn't shop there again, certainly not for the 90 day period. Either way, they lose business, their volume-purchasing discount drops, their overhead remains unchanged, so prices will go up, not down.

While I can appreciate that you don't want to be penalized for other people's abuse, this is nowhere near a cure. It is an extremely arrogant security theater clusterfuck resulting only in a collection of DL scans to be targeted by identity thieves. How can anyone seriously trust Best Buy for its security or trustworthiness of their staff with this. Another laugh meter broken.

Re:When people abuse prices go up

[uncqual]

While Fry's is good about taking just about anything back for any reason, the process is a nuisance.

Although always read the return policy carefully. Unfortunately the guy in front of me a couple years ago apparently hadn't done so before "renting" a portable air conditioner from Fry's for a couple days during a heat wave. He wasn't at all happy when Fry's refused to take it back.

As a customer who doesn't do such things, I was happy to see them enforce their policy as every time a customer "rents" via buy/return, it raises prices for everyone else. (I think they would have exchanged it if it was defective which seems fair enough).

Re:When people abuse prices go up

[kagaku]

I'm sorry, but this is abuse. I wish there was an easy way to try before you buy on many products (there isn't), and I understand the logic behind what you're doing - but it's still abuse of the returns system that many stores have in place. You're buying an item at full price, trying it out and returning it. Great, but even if you return it with all parts and in like-new condition the store cannot sell it as new any longer. They'll either need to send it back to the manufacturer or resell it as an open box item (I see Best Buy do this all the time). Sure, you bought another headset from them - but the $50 headset you bought and returned can now only be sold open box for $30.

People really wonder why stores are getting more strict on returns?

Re:When people abuse prices go up

[Eivind Eklund]

From what I can tell, allowing returns is a store policy thing rather than a US law; see e.g. http://www.enotes.com/consumer-issues-reference/purchases-and-returns#returning-consumer-purchases

I've also found returns to usually be possible the other countries I've lived in (Norway, Ireland). I would suspect that this does not drive up prices, because it presumably leads to higher income for the store than not offering it, or the stores wouldn't. I know I've seen recommendations to offer this for new businesses - it makes it much easier to get customers, because the customers take less of a risk, and the amount of customers that use it is small enough that it isn't a problem. Basically, it's treated as a marketing expense, and is a fairly minor one.

I know it affect me personally; I do buy some things I'm uncertain about because I can return them, and usually end up keeping them. I'll also say I don't abuse the system - with the single exception of small piece of furniture from IKEA that for complicated reasons were opened by mistake, I've only returned things in their original, shrink wrapped form, and done exchange on things that were broken when I got them.)

Re:When people abuse prices go up

[Ferzerp]

I won't argue with you there, but we cannot evaluate this policy on the assumption that your scenario is the case, as it appears that this policy is intended to cover any return or exchange. If they expect the return of defective products to be covered under this policy, they are running afoul of a few laws.

If the policy were such that they would only refund, or swap to a different product once per 90 days it isn't an issue. They aren't obligated to allow you to change your mind. They are only obligated to insure that what you purchase is functional if it is sold as a functional item.

Re:When people abuse prices go up

[hjf]

Did you take it out of the box, put it together, decided it didn't look right in your house, took it apart and boxed it again?

Or did you return the closed box? Cause, you know, there's a big difference.

As a book store owner it's a bitch when customers want to return a book a week later. You can guess why.

Re:When people abuse prices go up

[Xeno man]

Actually they don't say. "send to us for replacement", they say, "call us for support." Do you know why they do that? The reason is because most of the there is nothing wrong with the product. People can't be bothered to read set up guides or manuals and just figure that it must be broken. People expect to open a box and start using something not realizing that there may be some packing tape or plastic over a battery terminal that need to be removed.

A phone call to the company that MAKES THE PRODUCT will give people more information than some sales guy that only maybe know a little about every product. Maybe the sales guys favors another brand and his fix is to return the device and sell another brand that he does know. Calling the manufacture helps keep the sale instead of loosing it.

Re:When people abuse prices go up

[caitsith2]

You can thank the ipad scammers for that. (They repacked those with modeling clay), and even hired mules to do the actual returns, on the basis of secret shopper.

Re:When people abuse prices go up

[bmo]

and they are literally losing Billions to a pretty damn widespread abuse of their extremely friendly return policy

Citation needed. Citation needed to prove that bad management practices are not the real cause of the 1.7 billion dollar loss.

That being said there are a lot of people who are going to legitimately miss them if they do go out of business

They earned the epithet "Worst Buy" through customer abuse and stupid sales practices. So much of what has happened is self inflicted. Do you remember when they fired all their knowledgeable long-term floor sales staff because they were "too expensive?" Go ahead, walk into any Best Buy and try to find a sales clerk that actually knows what he/she is selling and isn't trying to be a bullshit artist. They are few and far between.

Return customers (not customers that return things) are a business' bread and butter. Best Buy went on the "quick cash now" binge to "satisfy investors" while ignoring the long term implications of pissing off the customers. Sure, people are using online retailers. They wouldn't if the brick&mortar service didn't outright suck.

There are electronics retailers that don't suck. One is MicroCenter. You can walk in, talk to knowledgeable sales people, get what you want for a decent price (sometimes cheaper than Newegg), and not hard sold on hundred-dollar HDMI cables and extended warrantees. And I find myself continuing to go back there. Repeatedly.

Best Buy *can* turn the ship around, but they have to abandon the practices that got them to this point to do so. Most businesses in this situation can't or won't because few in upper management are willing to accept the fact they fucked up.

--
BMO

Re:When people abuse prices go up

[Mitreya]

It's quite obvious that people are abusing the system and that results in increased prices for everyone. As someone who doesn't abuse that, I welcome the move so we honest people get things cheaper.

Except that it never works that way. If all return fraud and abuse was eliminated today, not a single price would be reduced as a result. There is often the "official" reason and the "real" reason for these policies and I want to know more about the latter.
For example, everyone knows that you have the see a cashier at a gas station if you are paying cash. Officially, that's because of "drive-offs", i.e. people who would gas up and drive away. In practice, this happens (almost) never. In reality, people who pay with cash are good potential for an impulse buy when they are forced to come in to the store.

Re:When people abuse prices go up

[TheRealGrogan]

Most of the manufacturers that sell to big box retailers take the returns back from the retailers no questions asked, too. It's just the price of doing business with big retailers. It works out in the wash.

I first learned this when I was younger... I had a job at a factory owned by a popular carpet cleaner/vacuum/sweeper manufacturer. My job was to manage the returns from Canadian retailers. At first I was doing what I thought was right. They entrusted me to do a job. I had places on the forms I was given to reject the returns, and give a reason. Most of the time the units were just used and jam packed full of dirt, and the reason for the return was "doesn't work". Obviously, it did work. Anyway, the head office got on my ass (yes, the suit talked to me himself on the phone) and basically I wasn't reeaaallly supposed to do that unless they were just some joe blow appliance store. When it was a big retailer I was to just process the returns no questions asked and salvage what I could. Once I received them, they were mine to deal with... clean them up for sale as "seconds" or "reconditioned" or keep any useful parts. It was a big "whatever" to the company.

These big box retailers have a lot of clout and get treated differently than smaller stores. They don't need to give people a hard time about returns.

Re:When people abuse prices go up

[Mitreya]

Except that they are indeed saying that.

People should know and defend their rights!!
Everyone (utility providers, eye doctor, dentists, etc) will ask you for a social security number by default. NONE of them are entitled to it and will suck it up if you refuse.
BestBuy may be mandating a drivers license copy for returns, but they have no right for that. And there is always a credit card chargeback if they think they are above the consumer protection laws.
Of course if you don't have your receipt, they may at least be legitimately able to refuse return...

Re:When people abuse prices go up

[uncqual]

He was not claiming it was defective - he said he just decided he didn't want it. BTW, it HAD been used and he acknowledged that (apparently it was fairly obvious from moisture in the unit). If it was defective, I don't know if they would have given him his money back (esp. if they didn't have a comparable model of another brand available for the same price).

Re:When people abuse prices go up

[mug funky]

long ago, i had a saga with a series of defective stereo systems. all from the same store.

in another instance, i bought a 2CD set of Physical Graffiti only to find it did not play on any CD/DVD device i owned. i exchanged for another copy, same deal. turns out it was a shit batch from the replication plant (Australians: never buy a disc from D.A.T.A. read the inner ring on the disc, or the embossing on the plastic jewel case). i never managed to get the fucking store to bring in an import so i stood a chance of actually being able to play the album. eventually when i got a blu-ray drive i found that i could rip the disc in burst mode, but by then i'd given up and found a second hand vinyl copy.

my point is that change-of-mind (such as in the case of the TV being returned after "the big game"), and defective/unfit for purpose should absolutely not be included in the same bucket. if a store sells shit, they should expect to see it again after it leaves the store.

retailers are crying foul at a market in decline and a business model that is no longer relevant. i have utterly no sympathy for them. i work for a company that sells product to retailers, and let me tell you, their terms are more than fair - they're exploitative and damaging to industries that rely on them.

case in point with DVD - any anime fans from the USA might have noticed that there's pretty much only 1 big company putting out everything, where years ago there were heaps. this is because retailers negotiated to be able to return any unsold stock at any time and get refunded. they then let their stock control practices slide and overbought anime DVDs (that's part of what killed Borders - overbuying), and then dumped millions in stock back to the distributors in a single quarter. they dumped so much stock that the quarterly losses of the companies they dumped on exceeded their cash flow, and they sunk. only the biggest survived, and overall quality and product diversity suffered hugely (it's recovered somewhat now, but only due to luck).

CEOs of retail chains are behaving like retarded, spoilt, entitled gen y fucktards. they all want something for nothing. they spout libertarian shit like it was gospel, but when competition threatens their business model, they're crying for the government to pass laws to kill their competition.

disgusting pricks.

Re:When people abuse prices go up

[Dahamma]

I meant to post the link as well, doh. From the CA Attorney General's office (is that official enough? ;)

http://oag.ca.gov/consumers/general/refund_policies

Consumers have come to expect stores or catalog companies to offer a refund, credit or exchange when they return items. Sellers are not required by law to accept returned items unless they are defective. However, California law requires that retailers who have a policy of not providing a cash refund, credit or exchange when an item is returned with proof of purchase within 7 days of purchase must inform consumers about their refund policies by conspicuously placing a written notice about their policies, in language that consumers can understand, so that it can be easily seen and read.

As I said in the other comment, it doesn't have to be as-is (which is a separate statue) - as long as it's not defective when purchased they don't have to take it back...

Re:When people abuse prices go up

[fast turtle]

What they are attempting to prevent is those folks who buy the damn thing on Friday and return it on Monday as not being what they wanted. If it's being returned because it doesn't work, that's a different issue and should be gladly handled by the retailer as usual.

Re:When people abuse prices go up

[hey!]

I dunno. That doesn't sound like a lot of return activity, especially if it includes Christmas returns. What's he supposed to do with a three or four blu-ray disks he already owns? Also, it hardly makes sense to penalize someone for returning defective merchandise. And Retail Equation *clearly* takes into account returns of defective merchandise in labeling your customers as dishonest. What legitimate purpose could that serve?

This sounds like one of those cases where managers are suckers for snake oil based on their wishful thinking and innumeracy. Retail Equation promises its magic software will identify people likely to engage in fraudulent returns in the future. It fingers a bunch of customers, and management is delighted; they said they'd finger crooks and by golly they did! The question is: where is the proof that those people will commit the future offense? Or that they've committed any past offenses.

Suppose a vendor claims he can finger crooked customers with 99.9% accuracy. And suppose Best Buy has a million honest customers over the course of the year. That means one thousand people get incorrectly branded as dishonest. It'd be find if Best Buy refused to sell stuff to those customers, but it *doesn't do that*. It is happy to sell merchandise to those customers, but if the merchandise is defective it refuses to give the customer his money back. In that case the character of the customer has nothing to do with the transaction; he has a just claim to get his money back even if he is a crook.

Re:When people abuse prices go up

[Jiro]

What if the people at the store don't understand the customer's complaint about the item?

I once returned a CD/MP3 player (back when people still used such things instead of digital MP3 players) to Fry's because resuming an MP3 at greater than 256 seconds would resume it at (time mod 256). Anyone with even the slightest bit of computer training should have been able to figure out that the firmware was saving only one byte of resume data and that therefore every one of that model on the shelf would have the same problem. The customer service droids did not comprehend this and made me exchange it with another one anyway, which I had to then return (I did get a refund then).

If that had been Best Buy, I'd have been out a restocking fee. And I can think of lots of other cases. (I've never tried asking a customer service droid which HDTVs accept 240P signals and therefore can show Playstation 1 games. But I doubt that if I returned a TV for being unable to do this they would do anything but hook it up to the store TV feed and say "see, it works fine".)

Re:When people abuse prices go up

[IonOtter]

Yes.

My neighbor, who we'll call "Dave", got what looked like a brand-new, ink-jet photo printer at the thrift shop. It was flawless externally, and it printed everything...except the color yellow. As you can imagine, yellow is pretty darn important, so they weren't happy.

After a little research, he determined that the cause of the problem was the ink itself. This was a mid-range printer, and the ink used clay as a base. If you don't use the printer at least once a week, the clay settles out in the intakes and clogs it up tight. The message boards were chock-a-block full of people with the same problem.

Dave learned from the boards that the company just takes the returned printers and swaps out the intake nozzle, then sells them on as "factory reconditioned". It was easy for the manufacturer, but not the consumer.

So Dave bought the exact same make and model at BestBuy, then swapped out the packaging for the defective unit. A few days later, he brought it back to the store, along with some of the photos that were missing the yellow ink. They got a refund on their credit card, rather than cash, and that was that.

So, as you can see, there is a reason why this is being done? But also, as you can see, there's no way to really stop it from happening.

Re:When people abuse prices go up

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

Do you remember when they fired all their knowledgeable long-term floor sales staff because they were "too expensive?"

That was Circuit City not BBY. BBY never had that problem in the first place because they never really paid senior staff much of a premium to begin with and consequently they've pretty much always sucked.

Re:When people abuse prices go up

[shentino]

Maybe it's a lot like piracy and you can't hurt the bad guys without hurting the good guys even more.

Re:When people abuse prices go up

[DarwinSurvivor]

I would have asked them why they are re-stocking a broken T.V.

Re:When people abuse prices go up

[Ktek]

I actually have seen a "Do Not Return to Store" tag in a product. I did return it to the store. My take on it was that the manufacturer doesn't want the store knowing about returns. If every one the store sells gets returned to the store as defective, they aren't likely to order more. Whereas it they are returned to the manufacturer the store will still be happily selling them while wondering why they are losing customers.

Re:When people abuse prices go up

[no_such_user]

It's high time that USA also gets "All sales are final" rules, like most of the world. Having people return fully working items that then have to be sold cheap drives up prices for all of us who don't play that game.

Liberal return policies make customers more likely to buy items due to the perceived safety net of said policy, resulting in greater sales, driving down prices for all of us. Plus, restocking fees exist expressly to discourage those who "borrow" items. The only time ID should be requested is when the customer cannot present a receipt.

Re:When people abuse prices go up

[bmo]

"MicroCenter is not going to help if BestBuy is gone. A quick glance on microcenter.com shows they have 23 stores. If BestBuy were gone, there would be no other consumer electronics stores near me."

Boo. Hoo.

Why do you hate the free market?

--
BMO

Re:When people abuse prices go up

[NetNed]

What do you mean? The majority of stores are now re-taping products, certainly the bigger box items, and trying to float them off on unknowing consumers. And it's been going on AWHILE. You can tell when a person has re-taped a product because new items from the factory that are taped by machines are taped smooth with no bubbles, wrinkles or creases and will be perfect down the middle.

I found this out from a circuit city that sold me broken speakers. I realized the tape was wrinkled and put on by a person. Upon trying to return they argued that it was new, then brought out another person taped box that I refused to take. Taking the speaker to another location (with apparently a more honest work force) reviled the speakers were listed as "in service" in the computer system, meaning they were supposed to be sent back. Did I pay less for the original speaker? No, they tried to pass off a defective one on me and I have seen this again and again from other retailers since. That's the reason they want all the manuals and equipment back with it. So they can try and pass it off to some other sap that will accept the broken product and either live with it or pay to have it fixed.

It's unbelievable some times how a sales person will argue that something if just "taped that way at the factory" when I ask for a different unit that doesn't have wrinkled tape. Most times when they have a retaped unit, that is the one they will try to pass off first.

Re:When people abuse prices go up

[Renraku]

Why not punish the abusers and not simply everyone that has to return things? A while back I purchased an LCD monitor from Walmart. There was a problem with the screen so I took it back and got an exchange. Well, there was a problem with THAT screen too, so I took it back. The second time they went through a lot of trouble of writing down serial numbers whereas the first time they didn't. They also checked it for any signs of tampering to make sure maybe I didn't crack it open, take the innards, and have a 'naked' monitor sitting around.

Immediately behind me was an obese woman with an empty food box demanding a refund because she didn't like the food.

Re:When people abuse prices go up

[rolfwind]

What if the people at the store don't understand the customer's complaint about the item?

I once returned a CD/MP3 player (back when people still used such things instead of digital MP3 players) to Fry's because resuming an MP3 at greater than 256 seconds would resume it at (time mod 256). Anyone with even the slightest bit of computer training should have been able to figure out that the firmware was saving only one byte of resume data and that therefore every one of that model on the shelf would have the same problem. The customer service droids did not comprehend this and made me exchange it with another one anyway, which I had to then return (I did get a refund then).

You explain to them, in English: "This item doesn't seem to work correctly. When I pause any song a little longer than 4 minutes and start it back up again, it starts at a seemingly random place." Then demonstrate it to them.

If they insist on an exchange, insist that the new unit doesn't have this flaw as it's unacceptable. If need be, try it in the store and most of them will realize it's better to give back the money than to keep opening new packages. Never go into geek speak with muggles if you want them to understand you.

Re:When people abuse prices go up

[SirWhoopass]

Yes, the United States does have consumer protection laws. Starting with the Uniform Commercial Code, plus the various states all have their own laws.

An item will have an implied fitness for purpose. The issue would be whether accepting the video signal from a 20-year-old video game system would be considered an "ordinary use" for a new television. I am not certain that is true. The original poster also explicitly avoided asking anyone at the store which television could do what he wanted.

Re:When people abuse prices go up

[squiggleslash]

I've returned one DVD in my life. It was opened. It was opened because I wouldn't have found out that the Abyss DVD that was specifically marked as "Anamorphic" and "Enhanced for widescreen TVs" contained only a letter boxed in a 4:3 frame version of the movie without opening it.

Trying to get my money back turned out to be a complete hassle with the store actually accusing me of trying to do something illegal. I'm glad my wife was there, because I don't think I'd have left the store except in handcuffs otherwise.

The Studios can and do rip people off, and do try to hide behind the "Returning an opened DVD is the same thing as returning a used DVD === PIRATE!!" excuse. It may be possible to abuse the "return opened DVDs" system, but policies that punish customers for returning opened DVDs regardless of the circumstances are inherently abusive. If the studios don't like it, they should try entering a different line of business.

They're on their way out anyways

[rmac1813]

..just another reason to go to Frys. Until they cross the line .

Re:They're on their way out anyways

[rgbrenner]

East of the Mississippi? Try everywhere that isn't CA or TX. Fry's is only in 9 states.. and 7 of those states only have 1 or 2 stores
http://www.frys.com/ac/storelocator/index.jsp

Re:They're on their way out anyways

[MetricT]

My friend lives in Atlanta. She has a TigerDirect, two Microcenters, and two Fry's.

I live in Nashville. We have Radio Shack, and Best Buy.

I don't understand why companies would rather beat each other senseless in fiercely competitive markets and completely ignore markets where they would *be* the market.

The whole "people go to Best Buy to shop and then buy online" thing is totally overblown. Yeah, I understand a real storefront costs a bit, so I don't mind paying a little extra, especially to have it *now*.

Best Buy's problem is that it isn't a 10-15% increase. It's often 200-400% increase. Golly shucks, I just can't understand why people go to Best Buy, look at price tags, and then buy somewhere else.

Re:They're on their way out anyways

[viperidaenz]

I quit buying Sony products. It makes me feel good inside.

Re:They're on their way out anyways

[xzvf]

I live in Nashville. We have Radio Shack, and Best Buy.

I don't understand why companies would rather beat each other senseless in fiercely competitive markets and completely ignore markets where they would *be* the market.

Nashville doesn't have any bookstores either, unless they reopened the B&N in the flooded mall by the Opry.

License scan?

[smittyoneeach]

License scan?
Listen, man:
Call Holder, and
Say it's voting, man.
Burma Shave

Re:License scan?

[tripleevenfall]

Obviously, returning Blu Rays is more dangerous than casting a fake vote.

Re:License scan?

[Ranger96]

Way more people abusing return policies than casting fake votes in person.

Well gee..

[Tridus]

This kind of anti-customer behavior couldn't possibly have anything to do with Best Buy crashing and burning, could it?

Nah. I'm sure the MBAs must have thought the policy through carefully.

Re:Well gee..

[GoodNewsJimDotCom]

Yes, one corporate MBA's policy is different from another corporate MBA's policy. It is just a lot of corporations want to screw the customer. Capitalism isn't all about just competing to give a quality product at a low price. Sometimes when you edge towards Oligopoly (Cell phones/oil), or you're the only player in town(Limited competition), you start to test the limits of just how much you can squeeze from your customers.

How is this legal?

[AmiMoJo]

If something is broken how can it be legal to "ban" someone from returning it? Or do they just mean discretionary returns?

Re:How is this legal?

[93 Escort Wagon]

If something is broken how can it be legal to "ban" someone from returning it? Or do they just mean discretionary returns?

As I understand it, legally the onus of repairing a defective item falls on the manufacturer, not on the store selling the item. But many retailers accept these returns in the name of good customer service. They then turn around and deal with the manufacturer themselves.

While I think this announced policy is a bit overboard, it does seem like (based on my circle of friends, acquaintances, and especially co-workers) it's not uncommon for people to basically abuse various retailers' return policies - so I can understand why Best Buy might see this as an attractive option. A lot of people seem to operate under an ethic of "whatever I can get away with".

Re:How is this legal?

[rgbrenner]

Is it illegal to have an "all sales final" policy? Generally, NO... there are many stores with such a policy... including stores going out of business

Re:How is this legal?

[Frosty Piss]

A lot of people seem to operate under an ethic of "whatever I can get away with".

Yes, that seems to be Best Buy's position...

Re:How is this legal?

[CompMD]

More importantly, it may be illegal for them to scan your drivers license. In several states, it is clear law that no private entity may maintain a database of drivers license data.

Re:How is this legal?

[Alien Being]

Here in Massachusetts, they cannot legally refuse to refund money for a defective item which they represented as a working product.

http://www.mass.gov/ago/consumer-resources/consumer-information/retail-rights/warrantiesrepairsreturn.html

Not really effective

[parlancex]

It's not like they scan your driver's license at time of purchase, so would-be abusers I'm sure could easily to find a friend or family member to return their product (still using the same receipt of course).

Best Buy fails again

[Golgafrinchan]

With all the problems Best Buy has been having recently, it's hard to believe that they think this will solve anything.

A customer who knows they can't return a defective item at Best Buy will simply go shopping somewhere else like Walmart, Target, or Amazon, who have more lenient return policies and/or are just more customer-friendly altogether.

I don't expect this particular decision will hurt too much, but with these kinds of stupid decisions Best Buy will be out of business within 5 years.

Re:Best Buy fails again

[txsable]

Just try and go return a Blu-ray or DVD to Walmart without having to go through three levels of bureaucratic bullshit, like the clerk, her supervisor and the supervisor's supervisor telling you that "We can't take back electronic media because federal law says we can't do that". And from my quick googling, it's not just our local store but a chain-wide FUD policy to scare the customer from returning what appears to be a defective product. I finally got the disk returned as a "customer satisfaction issue", but the outright lie about "federal law" just really pissed me off.

This only affects people flagged as abusive

[Megor1]

If you read the article it says that only people who have a history that indicates possible return abuse are given this type of ban. The service works across multiple stores to find people who use retail stores like free rental places. The article fails to mention what else the guy had been doing. If he has a history of buying and returning items then I see no problem with them cutting him off from abusing their store.

Re:This only affects people flagged as abusive

[kramerd]

If he has a history of buying and returning items I see no problem with them cutting him off from abusing their store.

I see a problem with that, and it is called contract law. BB's written return policy states nothing about cutting people off from the ability to make returns when they return a certain number of items in a specified time period. While it is legal for a company to sell items as non-returnable, it is required that the policy be known at point of sale. The new, personalized return policy can be implemented for future purchases, but if the person purchased other items prior to being added to the no-return list, BB has no standing to refuse to allow returns of those items.

Re:This only affects people flagged as abusive

[Hentes]

It affects everyone returning an item, as it requires them to surrender their identity. There are other ways of dealing with fraudsters. For example, if the device isn't broken, they are not required to take it back. Also, they aren't treated like a "free rental service". The "fraudster" exchanges the use of the device for the use of his money during the same time.

Re:fraud

[SJHillman]

If it's defective or was misrepresented on the package or by the store, then yes. If you decided you just didn't want it after all then they should have no obligation to take it back.

Gratuitous Python Reference

[Picass0]

Customer: Look! I came here to make a return.
Best Buy: Oh! I'm sorry, this is abuse.
Customer: Oh I see, that explains it.
Best Buy: No, you want room 12A next door.
Customer: I see - sorry.
Best Buy: Not at all. Stupid git.

It sucks for the honest people

[crazyjj]

for example, the people who buy a giant TV before the big game and then return it on Monday.

I used to have a roommate that would pull shit like that all the time. He treated stores like his free rental services. It really pissed me off, not just because it was dishonest (and that was bad enough), but also because I always knew it would come back on the rest of us who DIDN'T do that--either with higher prices or stricter return policies. It sucks that the decent always end up paying the price for the pricks out there. But it seems almost a given that there are always bad apples looking to spoil the barrel for everyone.

BTW, my roomate's favorite target was Walmart. They had a very liberal return policy. But eventually they caught on to him. One day he went to return something and they called the manager out, who told him that this would not only be his last return, but also his last visit to the store. He then had the audacity to come back home bitching about how it was this grave injustice (as if I hadn't noticed him repeatedly scamming them). What a guy.

Re:It sucks for the honest people

[Courageous]

It would be more just if they put him into a database banning him from all Walmarts.

I'm not really sure he'd be missing anything, though. :-P

Legality?

[alaffin]

Easy solution - don't buy product from there for 90 days.

In all seriousness - how is this even legal? I know in Canada any goods sold must be of merchantable quality - which means they must work. If they are defective than the sale is void and the merchant must take them back. Even if I've returned another product within the last 90 days. Is there some kind of American consumer protection loophole they're exploiting here or do the laws not protect consumers at all south of the border?

"Defective" vs "Damaged"

[dsmey]

I worked at BBY for awhile and it was apparent which customers purchased "defective" merchandise versus something they damaged or improperly installed and broke themselves. The amount of defective merchandise sold was very small in comparison to items that the customer either couldn't figure out how to use or they damaged in the process of trying to install.

Scanning drivers licenses is one thing that will help reduce the fraud or identify which customers are the loss leaders, and with their huge $1.7 billion quarterly losses they need to do everything in their power to stay afloat.

This wrong thinking is pretty common.

[symbolset]

When companies start getting in financial trouble they cast desperately about for ways to improve the "bottom line". Usually they light on access, inventory and returns as places to cut losses, presumably without changing volume. Also "building the ticket" and pushing customers to higher margin products.

You saw this at Blockbuster when they implemented sally ports on entry and employee gauntlets on exit. Future Shop, CompUSA and others all went the same way.

But there is no limit to these measures and they drive customers away. In that their end is writ.

If that's the case it is fairly normal

[Sycraft-fu]

Amazon will stop taking returns too if you abuse the system. They are normally extremely nice. If you have something you can send it back for any reason, including not wanting it, within 30 days and they are ok with that, no restocking fee or anything.

However if they notice that you are trying to use that as a rental service, they'll cut you off.

Re:If that's the case it is fairly normal

[Kittenman]

True - I chased Amazon once for a failed book delivery. Sorry, they said, and shipped another. Of course, I ended up with two. I contacted Amazon and offered to return one at my cost. No need they said, enjoy it.

I donated it to the local library. And I shop at Amazon again, and again ...

Returns policy

[hawguy]

Here's the returns policy found on their website:

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Help-Topics/Returning-Online-Purchases/pcmcat260800050014.c?id=pcmcat260800050014

Returns Tracking
When you return or exchange an item in store, we require a valid photo ID. Some of the information from your ID may be stored in a secure database used to track returns and exchanges. Based on return/exchange patterns, some customers will be warned that subsequent purchases will not be eligible for returns or exchanges for 90 days. Customers who are warned or have been denied an exchange/return may request a copy of their Return Activity Report by calling 1-800-652-2331 or by mail at P.O. Box 51373, Irvine, CA 92619-1373. Please be prepared to provide your transaction ID, ID number, full name, address and phone number.

Valid forms of ID accepted are: US, Canadian or Mexican Driver's License, US State ID, Canadian Province ID, Matricula Consular, US Military ID, Passport, US Laser Visa, or US Permanent Resident Card.

It sounds like only certain customers will be subject to the 90 day policy, depending on their return history.

Kudos to BestBuy for doing at least something righ

[LanceUppercut]

Incorrect. The policy obviously does not apply to genuinely defective items, so customer's won't get concerned about that. The policy applies to those who expect to be able to return their items without any reason, i.e. those who consider retail stores their personal "free loaner" service, at everyone else's expense. Amazon will not work for that purpose, for obvious reasons. And if these people try going to Target or Walmart with their abusive practices, the stores will either be forced to implement similar policies or be kicked off the market. Kudos to BestBuy for doing at least something right. Honest people now have at least one store that stands for our principles.

Story missing some info

[the eric conspiracy]

TFA didn't mention the fact that the restricted person had a fairly active history of returning items. Many retailers, not just BB will clamp down on serial returners.

That probably means the vast majority of Best Buy customers are unlikely to run into this issue.

Not that I would be a Best Buy customer. I'm just not a B&M kind of guy. And the few times I shopped there I didn't get a feeling that I wanted to be one of their customers. Salesmen trying to push cables that cost 25 times what I could get online are a real turn off.

Which is probably why they are heading for the .BK list.

Credit card

[Todd Knarr]

There's laws in California governing returns, and BB's policies likely violate them. But rather than fighting it out in small-claims court, it's easier to avoid the whole problem. I pay for stuff like that using my American Express card. If the item's defective and BB won't accept a return, I just call up Amex and dispute the charge, explaining that I've attempted to return the defective item to the merchant and they've refused to accept the defective item even though they're legally required to (law trumps return policy, the idea here is to cut off the merchant's "Our documented policy doesn't allow that return and the cardholder knew that." argument before they can make it). If I'm legitimately entitled to return the item, Amex will simply take the money out of BB's merchant account and put it back in mine, and then it's up to BB to fight it out with Amex.

Caveat: have the item packed and ready to return to the merchant. Amex will cut you off at the knees if you're trying to get your money back but keep the item. Also, I use this only for defective or not-as-advertised items, not cases where the item's in good working order and as advertised and I just don't like it now that I've got it.

Re:Try it in store

[geekprime]

Guess what tomhath, if you ask that at best buy, they will tell you no, pretty sharply while calling a manager over.

I noticed during checkout that the bottom seal on a cordless phone I was buying was torn open, upon opening and unpacking it while the manager was telling me loudly not to, it was clear that it had been opened before and everything had been previously taken out of the bags and un-packed, to top it off the handset battery was missing. He tried to make me buy that unit and return it for refund but I hadn't swiped my card yet and was not going to.
It took the cops (that the manager called) to tell the manager that he wasn't allowed to sell previously returned merchandise as new at all, let alone when it was missing parts and that I was not "obligated to pay for it because I opened it" because I was clearly not the first one to do so.

As far as I know that jackhole is still the manager of that best buy, I honestly can't say for sure as I haven't set foot in that store since and the reply to my letter to BB corporate was a boilerplate "against our policy" and "we'll look into it".

So ya, sure, it's all the bad customers fault, you stick with that.

Re:Wait what?

[tftp]

Uhhh, I would have thought that scanning the original receipt was standard practice at every retail store (ok granted I've only worked at one). Why would a large retail store not do that to verify the receipt is valid?

A year ago I bought a door lock at Home Depot. It looked well packed, like new. But when I opened it and tried, the keys didn't open the lock.

When I brought it back I noticed that I took a wrong receipt with me. However the sales clerk simply scanned the item (in its original packaging) and then asked me to swipe the same credit card that was used for the purchase. That was all that I needed to get the money back. Apparently their database stores the UPC code of a purchased item and some form of a c/c ID (hopefully not in plaintext.)

If the store does not confirm that the item was sold at this store then they open themselves up to a fraud. You could buy a truckload of TVs for $199 each in store A and then return them to store B for a $299 refund.

This assumes ...

[PPH]

... Best Buy will still be in business in 90 days.

Surely, you jest

[PPH]

Salesmen trying to push cables that cost 25 times what I could get online

What? There are salesmen at Best Buy?

Pics or it didn't happen.