Slashdot Mirror
NewEgg: Installing Linux Breaks Laptop
Rick Zeman writes "According to the normally geek-friendly online store Newegg , installing Linux Mint is tantamount to breaking your new Lenovo laptop. Is it the purchaser's fault for not restoring the laptop to its original state of Windows-y goodness, or is NewEgg being too dogmatic trying to enforce a term that doesn't seem to exist?"
In their reply they said "Unit cannot be accepted or resold as received." Did she make it clear in her initial call that she was returning it for a hardware defect, and not just a general "I'm unsatisfied with it" return? I'm pretty sure that ANY hardware defective computer, with original OS or not, cannot be "resold as received." It sounds like the RMA may have mistakenly been issued as if it were a general return when it should have listed it as a hardware defect return.
What political party do you join when you don't like Bible-thumpers *or* hippies?
Unsurprisingly, even Newegg can't afford super competent folks for their RMA service. So let me help anyone out who things that Newegg left this guy high and dry with some tips. Whenever I buy something, it seems like there's no way to get it without Windows. This means that I am paying for something I don't want. Sucks, right? Well, there's something you can do to monetize this if you want. Sometimes they have stickers with Windows keys on them but if they don't there's a way around this. Boot into windows and download some crappy tool that tells you what your Windows key is (I'm not going to plug any of these tools, most come with adware but who cares, you're about to blow that partition away). Go to My Computer and right click for properties and find where it tells you what version this is. Example: Windows 7 64 bit Professional. Write all that information down or e-mail it to yourself.
Now, you're free to wipe the whole machine and install whatever the hell you want. If something goes wrong and you need to RMA, you're in luck. You just torrent the ISO for that particular windows and burn it (or use Netbootin in the case of no optical drive) and reinstall it with your key and ship it back. Although this sounds like a lot of work, it actually can be quite useful when a relative or friend needs a copy of Windows. You make them a disc and transfer that heavily subsidized key to them. Sure, it might be illegal in the eyes of someone but it's worked for me and I keep it down to one use per key that I was extorted into buying. Personally, this sort of second sale doesn't feel morally wrong to me but if it does to you, you can always just hold on to your info and consider it an "asset" in your software library.
My work here is dung.
Time for RMS to add a "NewEggization" clause to GPL4.
Bullocks. Hardware damaged by bad software might be a valid reason for a voided warranty, but they should actually bother to check for that.
I think manufacturers should give up on offering warranties, they're clearly not interested in sticking to them.
A killer poke? Really?
If a driver bug can physically ruin hardware, the hardware is made wrong.
Rather obviously, really.
If I were to buy a laptop with Windows (heavens forbid), then I'd expect installation media to go with it. I can understand NewEgg not fielding support questions on every flavor of Unix, but my grandmother should be able to restore the laptop to mint (pun intended) condition by inserting a DVD.
If NewEgg fails to deliver that, then there's the problem, not a user installing something else.
The only two reasons why they won't RMA it.
NewEgg long ago stopped being the go-to site for tech stuff and went full on commercial.
Your hair look like poop, Bob! - Wanker.
Though there have been at least two such attempts that failed to do so.
And only VERY OLD hardware that Windows crashes could likewise kill had problems with synch frequencies out of bounds. Please go back to your 486SX machine and worry on that.
So please stop spreading FUD.
Which is not true, quite frankly.
Then logically just reinstalling Windows would void your warranty. I suspect they wouldn't have voided the return if it was running Windows.
Letting manufacturers dictate end user actions by threatening their hardware warranty is the nasty, nasty direction the computing world is taking. Just accepting it is probably the worst of all possible courses of action.
"If you use non-Windows platforms, you are lesser and will get screwed over. Accept it." That said, I don't know how many drivers are actually -reverse engineered- these days other than Nouveau.
Sorry if this comes off as rather snarky, but your argument basically falls into the growing anti-Linux, anti-anything-not-Windows bucket.
good thing I have a fry's near me plus they pricematch any internet store. I don't think software in computers should affect the warranty that is what they were meant for.
Thank you, now I know to never buy absolutely anything from this company and never recommend it to anyone, as a matter of fact warning people about buying anything from them would be the responsible thing to do.
[alk]
evidence in other fields as well...for example:
replacing the lightbulb in your refridgerator causes until catastrohpic damage to everything from the compressor motor to the frozen peas.
replacing the carpet in your living room will in fact cause your entire house untold amounts of damage to everything from the foundation to the chapstick wedged between the cushions of the couch
universal remote controls, while seemingly a good idea, can cause the television to stop working and the viewers to become incontinent parapalegics
replacing the gasoline in a new car with gasoline of a different brand, will cause the car to explode.
Good people go to bed earlier.
Obviously someone forgot to tell your parents.
Did they provide a list of "authorized warranty compliant software"?
Did they indicate that using "unapproved" software would void the warranty?
Is such a condition even legal in that jurisdiction?
From my reading it seems the answers are no, no and n/a.
I could possibly understand poorly written firmware (or some other "embedded software") damaging the hardware. If something at the driver level is capable of damaging the hardware, you need to fire your EE (and all reviewers and quality folks that signed off on the design). I don't remember any OS install updating device firmware.
Which leaves me thinking - is the HW in modern PCs that haphazard or is newegg (and others) trying to conserve a profit margin? I hope it's the latter.
I bought a refurb laptop from Newegg a couple of months ago and received it with an obvious screen defect. The CSR was very nice and helpful and got me an RMA and a UPS label and all that lickety split, no hassle. I sent it in and got an email update a few days later that there was nothing wrong and they were sending it back. So I called in again and this CSR was very helpful too and got me the refund with very little hassle again.
I don't know what's going on in their laptop repair department.... a manager that doesn't care?
Any time I've had to interact with a Newegg CSR, this time and others, things have been splendid and I've never had an issue getting a problem resolved.
What doesn't kill you only delays the inevitable
this is like changing the radio voids engine warranty
If I understand correctly, the Magnum Moss Warranty Act prohibits vendors from tying warranty coverage to branded components unless they can demonstrate that the failure was due to the third party component.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
There was a lot of concern over damaged monitors and such in the '90s, but not a lot of damaged monitors (but not zero damaged monitors). That was a hardware flaw and was fixed, it can't happen anymore. If the driver can actually wreck the hardware it's because the hardware has a design flaw.
If the manufacturer would like to paper over the flaw, it could work with the Linux community on the driver.
This is probably just a garden-variety fuckup.
This is why you only buy high-dollar value items on a credit card. Call the card issuer and tell them the merchant refused to accept the product.
(2) Wait 30 days, then file a credit card dispute saying "I returned this broken item, and newegg accepted it (Delivery Confirmation Number: 279279490242), but they have failed to refund the money.
(3) Done. These stores sign a contract with a credit card company & it states they will accept returns of broken items. It's the credit company's form of a warranty. (If stores don't like it, then they can refuse to sign the contract.)
And before some fool says this is "stealing" or whatever..... you're right! It is stealing. Newegg stole from a citizen by selling JUNK and not honoring the warranty. IMHO they should have their license of incorporation revoked by the government. But a refund on the broken item is good too. Consumer protection law sides with the customer not the jackassmegacorp.
My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
Newegg is a retailer, not an OEM. You cannot do any sort of substantial alteration to it and expect them to take it back. This isn't like she bought it straight from Lenovo and they're saying they won't do warranty work on it. She's expecting a full refund after she removed the original OS which is a major selling point to most Thinkpad buyers.
Obviously Mr. and Mrs. Coward didn't learn the first time, although naming you both Anonymous was a stroke of genius.
Be nice to your sibling.
This post comes with a double-your-money-back guarantee!
Any offense taken to this post is at your sole discretion.
While I'm not saying that NewEgg's failing to provide the customer service they've been known for, the following does need to be made clear: Installing Linux in no way voids the manufacturer's warranty. If you RTFA, you'll clearly see in the NewEgg letter the following sentence:
"If you are still unsatisfied with this product or experience further issues, we recommend contacting the manufacturer directly for support."
Clearly the hardware failed. Clearly the owner can have the laptop repaired / replaced by contacting Lenovo. NewEgg's just not willing to facilitate the process.
We've forgotten the fact that essentially using Linux does void your warranty in most cases.
This is just plain untrue. Got some examples to support your claim that this is indeed true in most cases? Probably not, at least outside of sub-Saharan Africa, so let me explain how warranties work:
Limited hardware warranties are put in place so manufacturers/sellers can meet their legal obligations (and be competitive). No number of elaborate clauses allow a company to step away from its legal obligations. Mainstream and well known companies tend to exceed the minimum requirements of the law. It's a better customer experience Installing Linux can be used as a basis for voiding non-legally required support - such as software support and extended support contracts. It cannot be used to void the hardware warranty, but can be used to refuse a repair if the use of the software can reasonably be attributed as a cause for the hardware failure. Support monkies and shop gimps may say talk about voiding the warranty. Just ask them to have that in writing - this won't happen. Ask them to show you where in the terms of their limited warranty it explains that installing Linux voids the hardware warranty they are legally obliged to provide. They won't have anything in there, except perhaps a vague reference to unintended use of the product. With this they have a pretty fucking difficult argument unless they clearly sell the computer for use only with x operating system.
Given the current state of GNOME, seems about right. As someone who can't continue using Mint 10 (because it's no longer supported), nor upgrade (because GNOME 3 sucks, Cinnamon is nowhere near ready, and Mate is ... problematic), I'm starting to heavily lean toward abandoning Linux for something like Mac OS X. At least until GNOME gets its shit together.
If the warranty terms themselves are not illegal according to consumer protection laws, they are clearly stated before purchase, and it's the purchaser's fault for agreeing to warranty terms that they don't like.
This isn't because NewEgg doesn't like Linux.. Its because merchants don't like returns. Each return costs money--from credit card charges, to inspecting and shipping it back to the factory, and tracking the return through the system. I'm guessing they will take it back if you complain a little (or a lot, in the case of slashdot).
With any low-cost reseller, you trade low prices for some types of restrictions. If you want a merchant who will take back anything without restriction (such as Nordstroms) you need to spend more for the privilege. There are thousands of small businesses that would give you unlimited support and take your system back--but they charge a more.
Its not like they are sticking you with a dead product--they are just making you go through the standard factory service to get it repaired.
Looks like the due-diligence for this special circumstance (a customer service trained to handle basic situations making the wrong judgement call) consisted of:
I spoke with a support agent, as well as a manager who couldn't comprehend the difference between an obvious hardware failure that could be found running the BIOS provided diagnostics, and the Linux installation.
The logical next step? Well Norm here manages to get it on some moronic newsblog article, that is comprised of: one screenshot of a generic rejection letter, a sentence of what comprised the followup, as well as a snippet of their expansive return policy, ending in a retarded red-herring speculation.
For a customer that supposedly
used Newegg for years and spent tens of thousands on tech gear with them, so I'm really bummed out by this situation
I'm more bummed by his inability to understand how customer support is supposed to work.
Anyone who's ever dealt with the wrong-colored blinking lights on a modem knows that just one level above the first guy get on the phones isn't enough. Escalate the issue one tier higher up the chain of command, point to the purchase history, and ask them to get a real tech working there (not someone handling tech-support flowcharts) to verify, and I'm sure it wouldn't be a problem.
But instead the whiny brat gives Newegg (which offers one of the better customer support experiences out there IMO) probably much more losses in bad press for what looks like a shit effort to communicate on his own end.
Linux Mint is very user friendly. I'd put it on par with Windows 7. I've been dual booting it with XP or Windows 7 on all of my machines for the past 5 years and have had fewer "maintenance" issues than with Windows. If you want a Linux desktop that "just works", Mint is probably one of the top choices. The few times I've had to support OS X, it was an absolute nightmare. When trying to install Office 2011, it kept running into some kind of circular dependency issue. I'll take Linux Mint over OS X any day for a product that just works.
Now go back to 1996.
This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood.
Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact:
A piezo gas grill igniter with a bit of wire taped to the ground clip makes a high voltage/LOW AMPERAGE circuit killer which leaves _no visible burn marks_. I've used one of these shoved into a spark plug boot as a small engine spark plug tester for several years.
Link has good pics, but ignore the "taser" nonsense:
http://www.instructables.com/id/grill-ignitor-mini-taser/
It's a waste to argue with people when you can submit a situation which they can deal with simply. They expect customers who don't know anything, but being POLITE works a treat. Act mystified as to why the magic box doesn't work and the hard disk shows No Operating System.
"Hurf, derf, I dunno why it don't power on. I can has new one?" and you'll be the EASY customer who didn't CHALLENGE anyone!
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
What's so hard about doing a factory restore? Windows or Linux, it should be done anyway by the manufacturer upon reception not to let personal user files on the computer.
This is obviously just a misunderstanding. Once Newegg understands the hardware is genuinely defective (assuming it actually is), they'll take the machine back.
So what's with the pretense that this is some sort of policy? Are you guys really that desperate to proclaim your victim status?
A killer poke? Really? If a driver bug can physically ruin hardware, the hardware is made wrong.
Killer overclock more like it. I had a laptop which in linux was just too hot to handle since as a default it ran the GPU/CPU at full speed. Now that isn't exactly overclocking, but I can understand a crappy driver running hw out of specs and at least shortening it's lifespan.
Seems like a pretty poor policy to me. Requiring Windows XXX to be restored to OEM configuration before honoring a hardware warranty, that is.
If you plug your shiny new Windows laptop into the Interwebs once you get it home, the first thing its going to do is to suck down updates. And that is sufficient to break it's s/w configuration. And cause hardware to puke in a few cases.
Most competent distributors will provide a bootable diagnostic CD, partition, or firmware function for the purpose of checking h/w health. Either that or its an eternal circle of finger pointing between the h/w and o/s vendors as to whose fault the latest glitch is. So as long as you haven't wiped your diagnostic partition or lost the CD, the OEM shouldn't care what O/S you are running. They shouldn't be relying on it to debug their laptop anyway.
Have gnu, will travel.
If you don't want your data to be stolen, securely wipe your drive before returning it. In case of SSDs just rewrite with random data several times.
You don't want anyone to see your data, and in addition there is no way for the seller to know what OS was there.
Is it really asking too much for a vendor to only support the official OS that came with your system? Christ, just re-image the system from the restore partition and then send it back.
I always make recovery media for CYA purposes and to load other machines. I even did it for the loathsome Vista install on my Thinkpad.
Does anyone NOT collect every copy of every OS they come across? It was useful back thousands of years ago in 1999 and is handy today.
If you want more than one set, it's sometimes possible to download and reload the recovery software and make another set.
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
Newegg isn't the "warrantor", Lenovo is.
Someone disagrees with you and that means what, exactly?
Holy hell, it's the same terrible arguments being used to justify locking down mobile devices being applied to standard PC hardware. Wow.
By that logic the only OS we can ever use is Windows.
Good, because a car analogy would be exceedingly shitty.
I have not use for Windows 7.
The very first thing I did was hook up my external DVD drive and boot to a Clonezilla disk and copy the disk image up to my desktop. THEN I installed the versions of Linux I wanted on them - Kubuntu for mine (fits in my small backpack I use when biking just great) and XBMCbuntu on my daughters - perfect for car trips and bragging rights to friends.
If I have to return one on warranty I'm going t put the original disk image back - not only to pass the "not having Linux test" but to also to confuse the ever living shit out of the tech inspecting an obviously used netbook that appears to have never been booted.
The preceding post was not a Slashvertisement.
Letting manufacturers dictate end user actions by threatening their hardware warranty is the nasty, nasty direction the computing world is taking. Just accepting it is probably the worst of all possible courses of action.
Interesting point, but a reasonable person will recognize that manufacturers can only guarantee a product as tested. Trying to think of a car analogy here... :) What would you say if you sold your smooth-running car on Craigslist, but the buyer comes back to you a few days later and says the car is running rough and he wants his money back, and you should just ignore the performance tweaks he made to the engine control module because they don't matter?
Hey, Windows users, there is no such thing as "forward" slash, there is only slash and backslash.
Exactly. As much as I love my Linuxy goodness, I'm fully aware that practically every driver I use is community-written, community-packaged, and community-maintained. Yes, there's a few vendors out there releasing officially-supported drivers, but they're still rare.
Most warranties come with a disclaimer voiding them in the event of misuse. Every FOSS driver is effectively misuse from the perspective of a warranty, because the driver could do something to the device the manufacturer didn't approve. Yes, you could look into the source and find out what the driver's actually doing, but that's prohibitively expensive.
You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
If that were the case, he'd be returning the laptop to Lenovo. Of course, IANAL, and there may be a good legal argument that NewEgg is not technically the warrantor. I'd like to see that argument if you can make it.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
Got the same treatment from Fry's Electronics when I had to return a laptop with dead pixels on the screen. They demanded that I contact the manufacturer and obtain a set of Windows disks and restore Windows 7 to the computer before they would take it back.
Linux breaks notebooks! I've heard of other company's trying to claim this but here's something to ask them, "Prove it!". Is it the better security that breaks the notebook? Is it the better memory and CPU management that breaks the notebook? Is it the better fundamental design from the ground up which breaks the notebook? I'm really confused on what it is that breaks the notebook, or could it just be that NO one in tech support understands Linux enough to get past grub! So because they don't understand it's your fault.
I'm more worried about leaving my notebook in the hands of a shitty tech support worker then installing Linux, Tech Support breaks notebooks, not Linux!
All returned computers should be re-imaged like they came from the factory as a standard procedure. What if the laptop was returned with a virus?
Many companies like to sell used equipment as "refurbished" without doing any actual refurbishing.
Newegg's greed gets in the way of being the excellent company they used to be.
Competition Good, Monopoly Bad.
I've been struggling on with Ubuntu and mint for months on my Lenovo. Wireless and PCI Bus issues causing kernel hangs. ACPI does not wok properly.
Occasional problems with X losing the mouse pointer. I tried PC BSD - different issues, doesn't like wireless card OR wired nic.
Last week I put Windows 7 on. It's fucking brilliant. Everything works. Linux belongs in a VM.
This really isn't an issue of whether she broke the laptop or not. Newegg has slowly been slipping down the ladder when it comes to good customer service.
Five years ago, this would never had been an issue and they would have replaced it. Now, they have gotten so big they suffer the same problems as others, poor customer service.
Its all about the bottom line now, customer service is not as important as it used to be...
Old news. This has been Neweggs policy for a while now...
http://lxer.com/module/newswire/view/97248/index.html
http://parrot-farm.net/Newegg/Newegg.com%20Horror%20Story.html
I stopped buying computers from them in 2007 as well. (still get the occasinal HD or videocard)...
--
Time is on my side
Installing Linux on a Lenovo is like installing a king in a hobo's cardboard box.
When replacing an operating system, please do the following:
1. Remove and preserve the original hard drive. It must be replaced into the unit if it needs to be returned.
2. Purchase a replacement hard drive from a different source.
3. Install the new OS on the new drive.
4. Enjoy.
Come on guys. This corporate rubber stamp routine won't really do for many of us Linux Geeks. I'll be buying hardware elsewhere now. There's no way I want to deal with a vendor that's going to use that kind of hoodoo vooodoo to avoid replacing obviously broken hardware.
I think the appearance of this story on Slashdot will raise enough of a stink within NewEgg to make them reconsider their position on this and similar issues. Their RMA techs need to be able to address HARDWARE issues when the issue is hardware. The OS is irrelevant. (mostly)
But we all know the risk of using an "other than Windows OS." But for the past... oh, I don't know... 10 years or more it seems like? I have always made it my practice to buy a new hard drive for any computer I buy. I remove the original HDD, slip it into an anti-static bag, label it and store it. THEN I begin installing my new OS... usually Linux.
This way, when/if I get an issue with hardware, I can pop the Windows drive back in and deal with the moronic tech support on the other end.
You can fight the system all day long, but it will have to take a lot more influence than I can muster to make things change.
I'm grateful that this story has made it to Slashdot. A lot of NewEgg customers will reconsider certain types of purchases from them or at least whether or not to buy it with a new HDD to drop into it.
I can definitely see things from NewEgg's perspective. They need to use cheap techs. Cheap techs aren't great techs. Also, they need to be able to process things in a timely manner. And if they don't happen to understand what they are looking at, it causes delay. Delay costs money. There could be more to it than that but I don't think Microsoft has played any role in this one.
This very same problem befell me about 1 year ago. I complained very loudly, including on a consumer review website. Within 24 hours of posting my detailed (and scathing) review I received a call from a newegg customer care representative, who assured me they would make it right. They did in fact allow me to exchange the laptop for a new one, and actually gave me a $100 gift card to make up for the trouble.
While I clearly can't say everyone will get that response, I personally feel that it is important that those of us who run Linux stand up and make it known that we cannot be ignored just because we are not giving our money to either Microsoft or Apple.
I had a Compaq laptop crap out on me a couple of years ago, and sent it back for repair. When I called for the RMA and before I sent it back I informed them that I had security concerns about the data on my HD, and asked to send it back without it, since the problem was an obvious hardware issue. Never mind what I didn't want them to see, none of your business either. Anyway, no problem when I phrased it that way, and since it was for repair not return for credit. May be worth a try before you go to all the trouble to image, wipe and then reinstall winbloze.
not many drivers are actually -reverse engineered- these days other than Nouveau. Sorry if this comes off as rather snarky, but your argument basically falls into the growing anti-Linux, anti-anything-not-Windows bucket.
HERE HERE!!! What a pile of absolute bullshit when it comes to drivers causing the problems. What most people do not realise is the fact that most hardware is designed with linux drivers right out of the box. Shit all of the chips from Realtek, ITX, etc, etc... come with native linux drivers because these are exactly the same chips being used in TVs, BDplayers, and home entertainment devices. AND JUST ABOUT ALL of these devices run on some form of busy box linux. So to hear the "faulty linux drivers issues" bullshit coming from these windows shills on /. just about makes me want to puke and these jerks really need to be taken down a notch for a change. THE F'n LAPTOP WAS DEFECTIVE and the crap about Linux drivers blowing it up is just more absolute Microsoft bullshit!
Next time either copy the original OS or VM the original OS.
Then if you need to return it just copy it back.
I install Linux on my laptop because it's always shipped with defective software that no longer comes with a handy re-installation disk.
It was supposed to be new, but it had obviously been used and repackaged. I requested an exchange and they argued the issue, and then I let it drop since the computer seemed to work okay. And that was the only time I'll ever buy a laptop from Newegg. Now I just order direct from the manufacturers.
> I've returned numerous products to NewEgg without a problem
You're not helping your case, are you?
This Slashdot post moved NewEgg from Avoid to Hell-No on my rating sheet.
Lenovo and HP are the only brands I would consider able to break upon installing Linux. I remember bringing home a new HP laptop and excitedly changing the broadcom wireless chip to an identical mini-pci intel only to discover that the BIOS had been programmed to boot only with original parts. Yeah, it would not boot at all, giving me the bullshit message that "Unsupported Hardware" was found. Lenovo does this too. If there are two computer companies I despise, Lenovo and HP are it. Fuck Lenovo.
I just had to destroy my MythTV ubuntu VM install because the Myth Front end kept detecting that it was crashing at the end and restarting it. I couldnt get out of it . Endless loops occur in computing, its not just windows.
Good-bye
all these OEM computer makers should be disentangled from Microsoft, or be sued in to being compliant with any POSIX compliant OS including BSD & Linux
Politics is Treachery, Religion is Brainwashing
UEFI* will take care of all of this.
* - UEFI still fittingly reminds me of UFIA.
System 76 will sell you a Linux-based laptop, as well as other companies (don't have additional links offhand) that take regular hardware (Lenovo, Dell, etc.) and will install Linux on it, and support it. At this point I buy hardware only from companies that support exactly what I want (e.g. MacOS, Apple, Linux, System76). Maybe I'm getting old (git off ma lawn!) but tracking down bleeding edge drivers for this and that equipment has ceased to be any fun; I want my machine to start up, get to a desktop, so I can do *my* stuff.
I guess if it's totally unresponsive a person is SOL without a drive swap, but I leave the restore, and even the Windows partition, on our ThinkPads. Just leave the Windows on it and resize it down for a little insecure storage space.
this is like changing the radio voids engine warranty
Only if you replaced the existing radio with a free one you found someplace and then tried to return the car for a refund without the original radio.
First, I agree that you should be able to install any OS that you want on a computer without it invalidating the warranty. However, the reality is that retailers and manufacturers see product returned because people overclock their computers and fry something, accidentally drop it, etc. Because of a few people who refuse to take responsibility for their actions, retailers and manufacturers are forced to make the warranty terms relatively strict.
Secondly, If you want to install another OS and maintain your warranty then you should be smart enough to realize that you have revert it back to the shipped configuration. The best way to do this would be to buy a new drive, swap it with the factory one, then install LINUX. If something goes wrong, you just swap the original drive back in. The other option, if you have another computer, is to remove the factory shipped hard-drive, take a drive image, re-install, and then install LINUX. You can then re-image the drive if you have to ship the computer back.
The first thing that I do when I get a new laptop is take an image of the shipped drive. Then I blow it away and install Windows from scratch. If a Windows guy can figure this out, why can't you LINUX guys and gals... (grin)
The only problem I've ever had with Newegg: there were two versions of the GPU I wanted; one with a fan, and one with a heatsink. The catch: they had the same Newegg product ID. Terrible, terrible decision on Newegg's part. After getting the one with the fan 3 times even though I talked to support, explained the situation with the product IDs, etc., I gave up and ordered from another vendor.
But it still annoys me to no end that they couldn't fix that problem.
I still order from them though... creature of habit I guess. It's always interesting to compare their reviews with Amazon.
Spoon not. Fork, or fork not. There is no spoon.
Now they ship via screwy means - DHL to USPS to ??? and their packing sucks: hard drive thrown in a box with ineffective packing.
Sorry, but gray text on gray background is making my eyes bleed.
http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1694667
People are claiming that Newegg has been rejecting RMA claims AND newegg has been purposefully bending socket pins to justify the rejections.
By that logic the only OS we can ever use is Windows.
Not quite. By his(?) logic, the only OS we can ever use is the *EXACT COPY* of Windows sold with the machine.
MCSE? No, sir...I don't do Windows. Yes, I am an idealist. What's your point?
Of course everyone on /. is going to get incensed by this. However, the reality is that NewEgg is actually pretty reasonably: the product was sold as a specific tested and qualified configuration of hardware and software. You replaced the software with something untested by the manufacturer: perhaps it was your software that drove the CPU too fast for too long, or failed to activate the fan, or run the fan too fast. You made this choice, reasonable that you should bear the risk and the manufacturer shouldn't.
Vote with your feet. Stop buying hardware that doesn't have native Linux. Buy from the manufactures that support Linux - give them all the money, make them successful, then you might see the others converting. Currently, you're trying to have your cake and eat it. Stop doing that.
When they try to resell it what are they going to say? Oh yeah, the OS was wiped, we can't restore it, and you'll have to track down the drivers on your own and reinstall windows from your own private disc.
You could stay new egg should do this for you. That the restoration process should include reinstalling windows. But it radically eats into their profit margin.
I think this speaks mostly to the problem with companies not providing restore discs for computers and instead relying on restore partitions. I hate systems that don't have restore discs.
If all systems had them then we could restore to factory defaults on a NEW harddrive. Or we could restore if the drive crashed. Or we could restore if someone installed linux on the machine and you need to restore it to windows before reselling.
As to issues with machines that don't have windows installed on them. I've see that quiet often. More then a few new systems that work just fine with windows 7 become unstable when I installed xp.... yes, both are windows but the drivers for xp were garbage. So I can only imagine that the drivers for linux might also be an issue.
I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
it's up to the store to provide good customer service. If they don't the customer is absolutely entitled to bitch and moan.
Which is why my example was OS X. Install Office 2011 -> Requires A -> Install A -> A requires B first -> Install B -> B requires C first -> Install C -> C requires A first -> bang head on Max. We eventually did get it installed, but it required more command line headaches than anything I've done on Linux or Windows. I haven't actually gotten into any sort of loop with Windows 7 yet, except for one video card issue but that turned out to be hardware. But I suppose there's still time, the OS is young yet.
There are relatively few things you can do to *permanently* mess up your hardware, even from a device driver. A network driver for instance will load up default setting from the EEPROM. It's possible to reflash the EEPROM but it takes special tools that aren't included by default in any linux distribution.
Similarly, installing linux isn't going to write to your BIOS, or reprogram other EEPROMS. Basically, installing linux may make things unstable or not functional for linux itself, but if you reboot to Windows or some other OS it will go right back to the defaults.
Yes, you used to be able to kill some CRT monitors by sending them signals that are out-of-spec, but those days are long gone. Yes, you used to be able to melt CPUs by running malicious code, but CPUs now clock themselves down if they get too hot, so incomplete thermal drivers can't hurt anything seriously.
So few weeks ago I bought a refurbished laptop. It was an Acer for about $260. Of course like just about any Windows laptop it was bogged down with crapware so I wiped it out and reinstalled Windows 7. Then it stopped turning on. I sent it back for a replacement but they claimed that reinstalling Windows voided the warranty. I'm pretty sure it's a violation of the Magnuson-Moss warranty act http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson-Moss_Warranty_Act. I paid for it through Paypal so I filed a fraud claim against them and Newegg finally gave me an exchange.
So, yeah, in the future I'm definitely going to make a stock image backup so I can restore it before sending it back for repairs. That or I'll smash the hard drive so they don't know I did anything.
Ha! That's the first thing I did when I ordered my netbook and Laptop from New Egg. But I imaged the Hd before I did anything.
Making the hardware only work with your own (drm enforcing?) drivers and break on purpose when a warranty voiding custom driver is used is actually a feature sometimes from the pov of the vendor.
What does that law say about manufacturers deliberatly making things flakey unless used with only the manufacturer's own parts?
Such as oh, I dunno, an iphone that self destructs if you jailbreak it
Ahem...Windows, at least from Vista on up, lists it's key in the "about this computer" heading in Windows Explorer. No downloads needed. I do this with some regularity because I like to keep a windows partition in order to run some necessary programs (proprietary scientific instrument software, mostly.)
Boycott Newegg
See www.linuxemporium.co.uk .
However, they are also offering to sell a 3-year "extended" warranty, but I am fairly sure that a three-year warranty is mandatory under EU law.
Tell them that it was full of PII (personally identifying information) and that it could not be returned w/o being scrubbed. Do they routinely take laptops from a return and resell them w/o reinstalling the OS? What about rootkits and stealing the future customer's data?
Did you ever consider this dependency hell is Microsoft's fault not OS X? If you use Apple's office apps you just click "install" in the App Store and you're done.
Newegg's RMA department seems to be a little crazy. I once received a scanner with a damaged box from them. When I opened the box, it was obvious that the power adapter had fallen out of the hole in the box sometime during shipping. Since neither they nor Epson could just send me a replacement adapter, I had to RMA the whole thing. The RMA was initially denied because I hadn't included all parts that shipped with the scanner.
A phone call cleared things up, but really? They didn't even read the RMA closely enough to see that the missing part was the entire point of the RMA?
Linux works great & if somehow the drivers were bad, which i doubt would happen on linux, or the wrong ones then the person who installed them is most likely at fault & newegg is a trustworthy company so Linux didn't break the computer unless the user did something that would break the computer
If you feel passionately about Linux support this petition to get Dell to stop the blockade and blacklisting of Linux and to stop forcing customers to buy Windows 7 and Microsoft Office if they want the latest Dell hardware. Make a difference and tell them to stop now....They have setup a petition website for the posting of new ideas and comments called Ideastorm, lets up-vote the issue and support the breaking of the Microsoft Cartel at Dell... "Pre-Installed Linux | Ubuntu | Fedora | OpenSUSE | Multi-Boot" Link: http://www.ideastorm.com/idea2ReadIdea?id=0877000000006ixAAA&v=1339437474096 "Give the user a choice of Ubuntu/Fedora/RHEL or Windows on all desktops..." Link: http://www.ideastorm.com/idea2ReadIdea?Id=087700000008iglAAA&v=1339424370822 Please support this effort... Quote:... "[Dell]
Intel P3 will lock up and after your power off and replace the heat sink, it will work fine.
Intel P4 and newer will throttle down, and speed back up when cooled off.
AMD will burn!
See the Tom's Hardware video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y39D4529FM4
Cool music on it too.
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
Newegg is not the company it once was.
I used Newegg for virtually every parts purchase for nine years (and I make or "guide" a lot of purchases, amounting to many thousands of dollars over that period), in part because they were among the first willing to ship internet orders to FPO/APO addresses of military personnel located overseas. I kept using Newegg at home, even when they weren't the cheapest, because of that courtesy when others (like Tiger) simply refused. Newegg also had excellent customer service on those rare occasions when I needed to return an item.
Last year, when upgrading a system, Newegg sent me a defective DDR3 stick. The twin-pack was, I think $23. I swapped the stick to another machine to verify that it was indeed defective. I submitted an RMA request to Newegg, and was shocked when I was told there would be a $2 restocking fee on the return.
Restocking fees are to cover the cost of inventorying and repackaging an item for resale. You can't resell a confirmed-defective item. There is no such thing as a valid restocking fee on a defective-item return. I went back and forth with Newegg for a couple of weeks on this, and they insisted that I would be charged a restocking fee for returning a defective item. I sent in the RMA, and they did indeed charge me for it.
I hope Newegg found that $2 worthwhile. It's the last they have gotten or ever will get from me or the many friends/family/colleagues that come to me for advice. I do find their website makes a great front-end for finding what I want to buy from Amazon or elsewhere, though.
So, if this person bought the laptop, and upgrades or clean installs Windows 8 and then the hardware failed, under these rules they also voided the warranty? The original operating system has now been replaced. So Microsoft should read this part, according to newegg, if a customer installs Windows 8 on a Windows 7 computer, they void their warranty. Buy Win 8 at your own risk. What about installing Firefox, games, office, itunes ? That would also alter the computer from it's manufactures original configuration, or simply turning the computer on and creating a user would alter the computer from it's as-shipped state.
Most laptops don't provide recovery discs, but have utilties right on the Windows install that allow an ISO to be made and burned of the install. I can't tell you how many people I know get up fudge creek for not doing this when their hard drive dies, or they try to install a different OS.
Not to mention you may void the warranty if they want to be jerks about opening the computer and messing with the hardware.
Technically speaking, it would not be the radio. Back in the 80's and 90's all GM cars that came with CD players came with a CD of random "classic rock" songs like Bryan Adams and the Bangles.
What this situation is like, would be if you put in your own CD of (sticking to the 80's here) Poison and the engine blew up. It has nothing to do with the system, or how it runs, but it was not delivered and stock from the manufacturer.
Your example of replacing/taking out the radio would be like taking off the bevel strip along the monitor exposing the wires. Or taking off a key or two off the keyboard. It would still be functional, but not stock.
If you want to get something that actually half works with free software stop being soo damm picky. Get a laptop that is DESIGNED for free software. Something that DOES NOT use proprietary drivers and firmware. It doesn't matter if it isn't perfect or not quite what you want. The more people who are a little less picky the more choices which come along. It's your stupid choice to buy from companies like Newegg. Sure- the prices are low, but they aren't shipping freedom friendly products and they clearly don't care or target the GNU/Linux user base. They advertise Microsoft this and Microsoft that all over the place. You would be hard pressed to find even one GNU/Linux system from them. Maybe a fad item. But real GNU/Linux users don't go there. They support the distributions and vendors who are making a difference. The ones who ARE pushing chipset vendors to release source code.
You need to check out www.thinkpenguin.com because right now they are the ONLY company that is actually focusing on free software. They are working with distributors of GNU/Linux to improve support for all sorts of hardware. They are working with chipset manufacturers to get newer chipsets supported that can be maintained by mainline driver and kernel projects. That is how you get out of the box support and near perfect compatibility across distributions. And not just for today. For tomorrow too. The non-free drivers/firmware are going to cost you down the road when the support gets discontinued by the manufacturer. Be it a printer (lexmark, cannon, etc) or a graphics driver (out of business or leave the desktop market?). The support for GNU/Linux and free software in many cases is declining because users are too cheap and won't support those who are making all the difference.
Even Trisquel is supported by ThinkPenguin and not just one laptop or a few items in the catalog. EVERY little product the company sells they support under a fully free distribution. It's not just Linux Mint or just Ubuntu (both include proprietary software/drivers/firmware). Dell, System76, ZaReason, EmperorLinux, and other companies selling "Linux" are pulling the wool over our eyes. I don't doubt the intentions are good- but the actions are self-harming this community.
If you absolutely must get xyz for your own selfish reasons at least make the effort to support free software in some fashion. Trisquel may not be your distribution of choice but funding it ultimately helps the free software ecosystem improve.
http://www.trisquel.info/ and sign up to become an associate member.
http://www.fsf.org/ or become a member with the free software foundation.
or make a large donation (a few hundred or more USD dollars) to one of the other free software projects you like. Such as Tor or OpenShot. Unless you are one of the hot shot developers the chances are the most you can ever do to improve the situation is to financially fund those working on free software.
Developers should not have to choose between making a living and coding free software.
I had a similar experience with with HP, and the dv6000 series, where the GPU would overheat the wireless card and burn it out. When I would call HP to mention that my wireless doesn't work anymore, They would ask what version of windows, at first I would tell them that I was running kubuntu and they instantly replied back stating that since I installed linux, that I had voided my warranty and that I could I not seek assistance. Called back up 30 seconds later, and stated I had windows installed, and they processed the repair, and eventually new computer.
Companies instantly believe that if you install linux, you are beyond the normal wear and tear of the computer.
they can't do things like that in Sweden we have strong laws that gives consumers rights
i removed windows 7 and installed ubuntu on a hp/compaq presario laptop one day a few months later the fan started to sound like a cessna and they didn't complain about ubuntu when i RMA the laptop
Mendacem Memorem Esse Oportet
This is how companies get away with providing a good service or good products then spend the next few years abusing their customers to milk every bit of profit from them while killing their own brand. Just look at brands from Makita to DeWalt to Sears Hardware to Mercedes. You build a good name them rip-off the customers by selling garbage. People like you that continue to fund crooks are the reason they are so successful. If it wasn't for your kind, there would be successful companies that would be known for producing good products and continuing to produce good products. Instead, companies like SGI and Sun are basically no more while Microsoft survives.
Nobody here is claiming that over-clocking cannot void the warranty, yet that can in fact be accomplished at the driver level in many cases and no your EE staff does not need to be fired if over-clocking can burn up the hardware.
Maybe the NIC respects what the driver tells it, while the uncertified Linux drivers are throwing out values that represent an unintended over-clock. In some circles the over-clocking ability would be called a "feature."
Yet here you are, hoping that this is NewEgg trying to conserve profit margin, instead of hoping that the hardware might be over-clockable.
"His name was James Damore."
That is fine as long as they disclose this, and the commission approves it. Good luck with that...
Couldn't this be written off as just another case of cloning around?
Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
that installing Windows breaks a laptop a lot more than installing Linux. At least installing Linux renders the machine usable; the same cannot be said for Windows.
Most. Twisted. Logic. Ever.
As an aside, I find open source drivers as a rule to be far better quality than manufacturer-supplied drivers.
Trying to think of a car analogy here... :)
Are you familiar with the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act? Try this:
If you take your four-month-old car to the dealer for a suspension problem, and they discover a Jiffy Lube branded oil filter has been installed, should they repair the suspension under warranty? Surely they'd like not to. By your argument, they don't have to. According to Magnuson-Moss, they do, unless the suspension itself had been modified.
I don't understand software controlled fans. Apple iMacs have software controlled fans and if you use them in DOS, WinPE, a Linux live CD, or sometimes even MacOSX install disk, they start overheating (sometimes to the point of being uncomfortable to touch) because the fans won't run. The Apple support folks don't refer to this as overheating though because their book tells them to only consider "machine shuts down" as overheating.
Most. Twisted. Logic. Ever.
This here be lawyerin', sonny boy... there ain't no logic 'round these parts.
Sad as it may be, this is the twisted logic behind such warranty refusals and as far as law's concerned, it's legitimate. To satisfy the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act requirements, the vendor just has to have Windows included for free with the purchase (as it often is), which gives them the ability to say it's a component necessary for proper functioning.
All other limits that I know of on warranties are based on the jurisdiction, so to the best of my knowledge (though IANAL) for this instance, it's legal. It sucks and the law should be updated to account for modern technology, but it's the way it is for now.
As an aside, I find open source drivers as a rule to be far better quality than manufacturer-supplied drivers.
Well, yeah. Many eyes and all that. I think I've had to choose vendor drivers once in the past decade, because there was a bug in the FOSS video card driver that affected my particular system. I'm comfortable running without a warranty... Hell, FOSS is the reason my computers are useful past their warranty's life anyway.
You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
I'm not a 10,000 a year buyer, but I do my fair share of ordering from the site. I've emailed support asking them to look into the issue. Hopefully if enough folks write in this will be resolved.
Let us assume, for arguments sake, that dodgy Linux drivers were responsible for the hardware defect (by over heating or whatever). Is it not possible that some dodgy windows drivers (or malware pretending to be a HW driver) could do the same thing?
Either way, the cause of a hardware fault could be caused by software, whether you're running Windows, Linux, BSD, hackintosh or whatever. So NewEgg's stance on this (assuming it is HW at fault) should be OS agnostic.
take any T61p with an nVidia chip
install Linux
instant inverter noise.
The binary drivers for windows do some sort of magic that the FOSS drivers just don't offer.
. drives are cheap and I'll get a 2nd one to use for my own stuff. its exactly like this situation that you keep the original o/s and for me, the original drive sits unused.
You have just quintupled the Microsoft tax. It used to be $15 per machine for the windows licence, and now it's $75 for a windows licence and an unused harddisk.
What you Americans need is a consumer watchdog to bitch-slap vendors on your behalf which try to pull stupid stunts like this. I pay for the hardware. I use the hardware as I see fit. If it breaks due to some normal and intended use of the system (installing and using an Operating System is definitely normal) then the manufacturer is at fault. Even if it is a driver issue that was found to melt the computer into a puddle the onus is on the manufacturer that the hardware has failsafes which prevent a user from breaking it by doing something as simple as inserting a CD and booting up.
Per your first comment: It's not 1992 - every VLSI chip in that box has thermal shutdown.
Per your second one: Have you ever written a driver and/or firmware? Professionally? What you said makes no sense, especially from the NIC point of view.
Per your last one: It's a business, it's purpose is to conserve profit margin.
People can't admit to themselves that they are risking their money by using non-aproved software with hardware they buy.
Interesting - so how do you in fact get "approval" to run software on your computer? I wonder where this control would stop, would you need to get OEM permission to install a text editor, word processor or graphics program?
The car analogy doesn't really work here, it's more like a VHS recorder where you can put in tape rentals, tapes that you've made from TV or tapes that you might borrow from a neighbor. Does Zenith need to give you permission every time you want to play a tape? That's ludicrous and it sets a dangerous precedent. You don't void your DVD player warrenty if you try to play a home made movie in it - do you?
It looks like Newegg ended up doing the right thing here ultimately, although I will say that for most PC hardware I've stopped shopping there as they generally don't have the best prices.
Eric Sarjeant
eric[@]sarjeant.com
... also, following your line of reasoning, using Windows is misuse from the perspective of warranty, because the driver could do something to the device the manufacturer didn't approve. You did know that computer manufacturers don't have control over what code Microsoft releases, right? Surely you don't think that AMD approved the Service Pack 3 fiasco?
Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
Well, she did pay the Microsoft tax in the first place
The warranty is void because she installed over the original OS. She could have installed exactly the same version of Windows and still be in the same situation.
I suggest Slashdot use a standard summary for these stories: Hey, some people don't like Linux, why don't you all get outraged and argue about that???
I have news for NewEgg: Lenova Thinkpad laptops suck. I use a fairly new one for work (not my decision) with Windows 7 installed on it. Its performance is sub-par and I often get a "fan error" when cycling power followed by an immediate shutdown. I've already had the laptop serviced once, which never fixed the "fan error" issue. BTW, I don't run linux or any other OS on it.
Update to TFA: Newegg has changed their mind and agreed to replace the item.
http://consumerist.com/2012/06/newegg-no-well-totally-take-returns-after-you-install-linux.html
This is IBM we're talking here. I would not be surprised if there was something in the hardware
that "hinders" installation of anything other than MS windows. So, in effect, Newegg was correct.
But they should have supported their customer, as a defect is a defect, intentional or otherwise.
CAPTCHA = raving
Interesting point, but a reasonable person will recognize that manufacturers can only guarantee a product as tested.
So, you don't install Linux, but your warranty is void as soon as you
a) run windows update
b) install a new Windows application
c) remove a pre-installed Windows application
Since you no longer have the original system 'as tested by the manufacturer'
I.e. the guarantee is worthless within about 5 minutes effectively, whether you stick with Windows or install Linux or whatever.
Alternatively, you could recognize that a PC is not a car, it is intended *at present* to be a general purpose machine, and it is actually designed to boot and run arbitrary operating systems from hard drive, USB device or optical media.
Sadly, NewEgg has gone downhill for years. I will not order from them anymore unless absolutely necessary. There RMA return people are told to deny at the slightest hint of change to a product. I ordered 8 Hitachi hard drives once and one came D.O.A. One of my technicians wrote “Bad” on the label in pencil to identify it as the one that was bad. NewEgg denied it saying that I “Damaged” the product by writing or altering the label and it could not be returned. I asked for a manager and she also denied the return saying they could not accept it per there policy of not accepting damaged merchandise. I ended up returning it to Hitachi themselves, without any issues.
It’s nice to see this article. It means that people are sick of NewEgg’s crap RMA policies. Maybe they will wake up and realize that treating there customers like crap will not win them any awards.
http://consumerist.com/2012/06/newegg-no-well-totally-take-returns-after-you-install-linux.html
NewEgg claims it was a misunderstanding and took it back and gave the original purchaser a full refund.
So this whole thread can be put down to a misunderstanding.
Delete partitions and play stupid. Arguing wastes time.
I require a given result, and will manipulate any "input conditions" I damn well please to get it. If that means deleting all partitions then bricking defective equipment, that's only a few minutes of my time.
Don't get wrapped up in trying to obtain validation for your arguments or needs when returning disposable consumer items. Just do what you need to do to get your refund, be nice to everyone and smooth THEIR process, and all is well.
If I'm sold an intermittently misbehaving product, that bitch will be _dead_ quiet when it goes back. It's junk anyway.
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
Installing Linux seems to have broken my HP laptop, I get a BIOS broken message. I think HP Unix might be the problem if it resides at the BIOS level.
Funny, this post came up just as I was re installing Doze to see if that fixes the problem.
http://consumerist.com/2012/06/newegg-no-well-totally-take-returns-after-you-install-linux.html
Update: It was all a mistake!
restore windoze?
...my new over-priced disposable hardware source. Of course if I want disposable hardware, I'm pretty sure I can find it fr less on e-bay, but sometimes you just want something that people will think is pretty.
You never know...
Since when is a single customer's experience with Newegg newsworthy? If I wanted to hear stories about people complaining about return policies I'd go to the service desk at Target. Slow news day anyone?