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Blocking Gun Laws With Patents
New submitter robkeeney writes "Legislators in several states are working on laws that would require certain gun manufacturers to implement 'microstamping' to help law enforcement solve gun crimes. 'Lasers engrave a unique microscopic numeric code on the tip of a gun’s firing pin and breech face. When the gun is fired, the pressure transfers markings to the shell casing and the primer. By reading the code imprinted on casings found at a crime scene, police officers can identify the gun and track it to the purchaser, even when the weapon is not recovered.' As with any gun-related legislation, many people oppose these new laws. In California, a law passed in 2007 requires that when microstamping (which is easily defeat-able) is no longer patent encumbered, all new guns in CA must use it. To fight it, an organization called the Calguns Foundation paid a fee to extend the patent in order to prevent the law from going into effect."
Luckily I reload all shots myself that I use in crimes.
Additionally I use revolver or if I use a pistol, I use a brass catcher.
So dear murderers, get replacement firing pins now, before you have to order them in Canada.
So... file the firing pin?
Buy a gun from outside CA and bring it in?
Laser engrave some other sod's ID?
Hold a firing pin party?
It sounds like a horrendous waste of time and money, whether you want gun control or not. Ineffective legislation is the worse of all outcomes.
All responsible gun owners do.
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
Ballistic "forensics" has already been shown to be, essentially, utter bullshit, so why should I care?
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
This *totally* solves crimes where a stolen firearm was used!
Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
So, a well-planned criminal just needs to hang out at the local shooting range and collect someone else's brass casings before they commit a crime. After they commit their crime, they collect their own shells, and toss out the other person's shells. When police show up, there is a positive ID on the discarded casings, because of the #. This was a good idea, but it is so very easily spoofed because it's non-deterministic and can put innocent people at risk. I'd pass...
Apparently the people making laws are about as proficient with firearms as they are with technology.
Wouldn't this make it easier to frame people?
Find spent casing from either your target or some random spent casings.
Plant them at the sight.
????
Profit.
Foot placed squarely in mouth since 1983.
"Ok Vito, we're going to need you to ice Ricky Peanuts tonight. Shoot him full of holes, then chop up the body and feed it to your pet alligator. Then grind up the alligator, dissolve him in acid, and turn it into smoothies at your ice cream parlor. Then burn down the ice cream parlor with everyone inside. And don't forget to file the code off your gun."
"File off the code? Madone! That's illegal!"
how many pairs of boxer shorts should you own?
defeated by a diamond dental burr and a Dremel.
The problem with guns is the technology to kill people is very primitive and simple. We've been killing each other since before we could read and write. Guns are nothing more than a device for initiating a controlled rapid exothermic reaction resulting in a propulsive force to a projectile.
Most people have the necessary tools and items required to manufacture a simple gun in their garages, propellant included. So even in the ideal case where criminals don't just file off the microprinting in a few well-placed strokes, and in this magical world every bullet fired has a 1:1 parity with a registered gun owner, the problem isn't any closer to being solved... there's still hundreds of other ways to murder people, either with guns, or gun-like devices, or even without guns. Hell, the government routinely says tazers, water cannons, and microwaving protesters is "safe", yet people still somehow wind up just as dead.
Expecting violent criminals to care about legislation like this is like expecting a terrorist to care his car bomb is taking up two parking spaces.
#fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
revolvers that don't leave shell casings behind?
Will make some people very rich and send many innocent people go to jail.
Looks like it is time to replace your Personality Module. You are a bit to clingy, guess I better replace your fuser to
Ok, microstamp it. Costs to manufacturer to tool up to do that, thousands.
2 dollar file at the local Ace hardware store, file it down...defeat it, PRICELESS.
Hey idiots...instead of making NEW laws for firearms, how about ENFORCING the current ones?
IE: Fast & Furious?
Well hell, can't use that then. We all know that criminals are all well planned geniuses that think of every contingency and will counter every forensic method used to find them. I mean, seriously, what are they thinking.
Not only can you just file/sandpaper the tip of the firing pin, I personally know a forensic scientist who did a Master's Thesis on this very subject, and in his research and testing, he found that the serial numbers wear down enough in just a few shots that they aren't readable on the primers any more. Combine that with widely varying degrees of hardness of different brands of primers (some take a good print, some don't), and it's a totally unreliable way identify which firearm shot the round. The people who push this technology in the political arena hope to make tons of money on it (they own the businesses that make the products). The tech sounds good in theory, but in practice, it simply doesn't work.
Components of a gun aren't restricted. For some guns, that can be nearly all of them. Like an AR-15 the only part that is the actual "gun" is the lower receiver. Everything else, you can mail order. Gun laws are a very strange mix of shit like that, particularly since some of the regulations were implemented as tax regulations to try and get around any second amendment concerns.
At any rate, firing pins are cheap and easy to order. They are just literally little metal pins. They are also something that is prone to break in a weapon that is used often, hence they are something not uncommon to order.
As an example a new striker, which includes the firing pin, for my pistol would be $40 for a titanium upgrade (lighter than the factory steel unit). Even cheaper for something more common that uses a separate pin, an AR-15 firing pin is $6.
I guess maybe this helps catch dumb criminals but I have trouble believing it'll do much good. Getting your hands on a new firing pin is dead simple, can be done on the Internet, and is in fact not at all suspicious as people do it all the time.
This also ignores the 100 million-ish guns already in the US that don't have this feature, of course.
That's a shame because this seems like a great way to prove that my weapon (or at least my firing pin) wasn't used to shoot anyone.
This is just one more attempt to make law abiding citizens criminals because they exercise a right the government thinks they shouldn't have. Criminals will ignore this law and deface their illegal guns if they have this. However, it will soon become illegal to have your firing pin defaced, and with how much som people legally shoot it will become defaced through use. Once a cop decides he doesn't like you, searches your car without a warrant, finds the gun and suspect its illegal, the law abiding citizen is now a criminal.
This is merely an attempt to make those who legally exercise their second amendment rights criminals.
I don't understand, it's enough to just graze a microscopic layer off the tip of the firing pin to render the gun "unidentifiable" ?
In terms most /. readers can understand, Gun control has very similar problems to DRM. It solves a minute percentage of the problem, affects almost none of the people it was intended to (criminals/pirates) and serves only to inconvenience the law abiding citizen. Passing gun control legislation has a nice "feel good" factor, ie "Do it for the children!", but in fact does squat to actually diminish any gun related crime at all. I give you the infamous "Crime Bill" passed in the 90's as exhibit A.
Microstamping would only work if it were 100% impossible to pick up someone else's casings at a gun range. Plan on committing a crime? Just follow these steps:
1) Go to a local gun range.
2) Shoot next to someone who has a similar gun.
3) Pick up a few of their spent casings.
4) Commit your crime.
5) Pick up your casings.
6) Toss down the casings you picked up in #3.
If law enforcement has faith in micro stamping, you have just successfully framed someone. At least with blood evidence, it is a lot harder to steal someone's blood without them noticing.
-- This sig is only a test. If this were a real sig it would say something witty. --
then the bad guy will get the gun from Mexico
What I want to better understand is where does this kind of thing come from? Are legislators just stupid? And I don't mean in a small way that certain acts are stupid but in a big way that they are retarded. Are they intelligent but naive? Are they well aware of the futility of these laws (including limiting folks to 10 rounds, banning mean-looking guns, etc.) but are doing such things for their own personal career gain? What's going through their heads?
I know this is slashdot, where Patent FUD is King, and this may be a bit of a technicality, but the company didn't pay an "extension" fee - there is no such thing. It's called a maintenance fee. In order to keep the patent in force for the full statutory term, the holder of a patent must continue to pay fees to the USPTO. This is not some sort of fee to allow the patent to remain in force longer than the statutory term of 20 years from the earliest claimed priority date. Don't pay the fee - the term of the patent is cut short.
Just thought I'd throw that out there before someone criticizes the patent system for allowing "extensions."
Really there are multiple issues.
1. How are the criminals getting the guns?
They probably are not buying the guns through a licensed gun dealer themselves.
2. If someone else is selling guns to criminals, is there a way to find out who that is?
Maybe this laser micro etching will help in certain instances. Probably not many, though.
3. If the guns were stolen from a legitimate owner, is there a way to check the plausibility of that?
Probably. Most legitimate owners do not have their guns stolen repeatedly.
4. Is there a way to track the gun that was fired in a crime?
Not really. This might help in certain instances. But probably not with career criminals.
So, it looks like this might (emphasis on "might") help in a sub-set of instances and be totally useless in "career criminal" cases.
If it does not cause any damage to the gun and does not increase the price then I'd have no problem with this.
But I understand people who DO have a problem with it. They're worried that the government will mandate that ALL guns be marked this way. Without any "grandfathering".
Why are so many of you talking as if this would be the sole evidence used in a murder case - were you dropped as children? The most obvious application would be to narrow down what to look for - all pieces of the puzzle helps. To actually convict they'd *still* need the usual evidence, motive etc. so no, messing with numbers would not get "innocents" sent to jail or whatever incredibly stupid scenario you can think of.
I swear to god, you lot appear to get more retarded by the day.
As the firing pin hits the primer, and that you don't reuse, you get a new primer to put in the case. As I said in another post a more real problem would just be people getting new firing pins. You can order them online and people do. Some AR enthusiasts like to keep an extra firing pin and bolt with them since those are the most likely things to go wrong. If they do, swap them out, go back to plinking.
Gun-turds teaming up with patent-turds. A match made in hell.
Years before this is actually in place there will be five movies where it's used to solve crimes and the CSI shows will have been doing it for seasons. Net result is that the bad guys will pick up their shell casings.
Net result? You'll know LESS about the gun since now there won't be any shell casings left. Amongst the good ideas will be that criminals will shift to revolvers. Guess what revolvers don't eject? Shell casings. They stay in the gun until manually removed. So good work.
Furthermore, about five seconds after this thing is released blackmarket gun dealers will know how to file the firing pin or whatever so it doesn't even put a serial number on the casing.
This is basically the whole stupid DRM argument all over again. Once I have the gun in my hands it's a lot easier for me to disable whatever stupid features were put in place then it is for anyone else to implement them in the first place.
And with the rise of 3d printers if they really want to get obnoxious with trying to code the guns they'll find home made guns coming out metal printing 3d printers that get the job done. This is a bad idea.
They're disturbing the equilibrium. Criminals have little reason to pick up shells and little reason print their own guns. Play around with this stuff and they will do both.
Net loss to law enforcement. Possibly it will make it easier to catch really dumb criminals but the clever ones will just get harder to catch.
I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
Ever since the anti-self-defense lobby has resorted to every single dirty trick in the book to get their way, it's only fair that NRA aka the good guys only do the same.
Being a gun owner in CA, we've seen this numerous times. Anti gun legislation is proposed with seemingly noble goals, while the real reason behind is to drive down gun sales by raising the cost of firearms to the point where only the rich can buy one (and, FWIW, this country isn't that far off from making the collective realization that the best way to fix the problem is to kill all the rich people and start over). In Noo Yowk's case, the pricing is specifically capped to make selling guns there unprofitable.
I just wish more manufacturers would grow a backbone and stop selling non-civ-legal weapons to LE in the affected states.
I see lots of "oh, it's easily defeatable" blah blah blah here.
Naturally, if one bothers to go out an look at the legislation and motivation behind this, one would find it's no different than the serial number stamp on firearms. You can't get a conviction based on micro-stamped brass at a crime scene, any more than you can get a conviction just on finding the murder weapon (complete with intact serial number stamped on the frame) at the scene. One still has to place the gun in an offender's hand (in either instance).
It's an aid to crime solving, in the same way serial numbers on the gun itself are an aid. It gives the police investigation a good place to start looking, nothing more, nothing less. It's not evidence that the owner committed the crime; one still has to prove that the owner fired the gun in question, just like you have to do with gun frame serial numbers . For the purpose it is intended to serve, microstamping the firing pin is a very good idea, and has roughly the same utility as gun frame serial numbers do. As such, it's actually a great investigative aid, given that brass is much more likely to be left at a crime scene than a gun itself, and that criminals are highly unlikely to be able to gather all expended brass, which means that at least some of the brass almost certainly comes from the weapon used in the crime.
Certainly there are ways to subvert this, but they're not much more likely than filing the serial number off a gun, and we all know how many guns used in crimes have them filed off (hint: not many). Gun crimes (like the vast majority of all crimes) are not well-planned by super-level-headed big brain geniuses that think of all possible outcomes, then coolly remember to execute everything flawlessly. Crime is sloppy by nature, with gun crimes even more so, so the utility of this goes up with the amount of sloppiness of the criminal. Hell, even "professional" mob hits are notoriously unprofessional.
Get a grip, people.
-Erik
There are always four sides to every story: your side, their side, the truth, and what really happened.
Many firearm manufacturers don't bother to make CA compliant products, or only make some subset of their product line compliant. They give up 10% of their potential market and forego 100% of the CA regulatory burden.
Requiring micro-stamps will create a mess for gun owners and gunsmiths, who will then be obligated to deal with the stamps (via some additional federal registration process, doubtless) when parts are replaced (barrels, revolver cylinders, etc.) during repairs, modifications or otherwise. This will naturally make gun ownership more difficult, expensive and create new legal jackpots for everyone involved. Thus, the real intent of these laws is achieved; discouraging law-abiding shooters.
Oppose this nonsense here. Today, gun control is a political third rail among the free states of the US because of gun rights organizations and their millions of dues paying voters. Support them or keep quiet when you're locked up because some apparatchik lost your micro-stamp paperwork.
Duh, any smart criminal would just wrap the gun in a cloth or plastic bag to avoid losing brass. More of us would support these laws if it wasn't for their obvious unstated intent to hinder legit gun ownership.
If you're not planning on using the gun illegally, then why would you care if the gun has identifiable parts/imprintings/etc.? I'm all for allowing people to legally own guns. I'm not all for allowing people to try and hide traces of their usage.
Vote monkeys into Congress. They are cheaper and more trustworthy.
Actually, no. Like most techniques that can be used to link an offender to a crime, it can be effective in the real world even if there are ways in which it can, in principal, be used to mislead.
That's true of most useful techniques in crime solving. The solution for this is not to have those techniques available, its not to have "faith" that anyone one of them, standing alone, has more meaning than it actually does. Microstamping doesn't substitute to things like witness testimony, physical evidence (DNA, etc.) of the presence of the suspect at the crime scene, evidence of motive, other existing mechanisms of tying ammunition to the weapon and the weapon to the hand of a shooter, etc. Its just one more tool on top of the others.
When are we going to get tired of the shit coming out of California and kick their asses out of the union?
Is everybody in that godforsaken state bat-shit crazy?
As for your sig-
How is "the truth" and "what really happened" different?
Vote monkeys into Congress. They are cheaper and more trustworthy.
If guns are illegal, then anyone who has a gun is a criminal, and you can prevent crime by just arresting everyone who has guns.
paintball
Firing pins hit HARD, they have to to work. Heck the way I test to make sure a firearm is fully operational after a detail strip and reassembly is to put a pencil in the barrel and pull the trigger. The firing pin will launch it out from the force of the hit.
While firing pins are made of tough material, steel usually but you can get them in titanium, I can't imagine micro features will stand up well to repeated impacts like that.
If you leave a bunch of ammo unsecured, and it is stolen, you are still culpable for the murders committed, so none of that innocent people will be harmed crap.
Might even reduce some poaching crime too.
Police can just wave a wand over a weapon to see if the ammo complies, and with harsh penalties for using non RFID ammo-- ones that are comparable to those of the ultimate crimes committed with the ammo-- we get the criminals before they kill someone.
If you are afraid of the bogeyman., and keep a loaded gun under your pillow, RFID ammo does nothing to change the efficacy of your gun.
This is just a way to impose additional burden on makers. That is all it does.
Treat with the same degree of critical thinking you apply to sales pitches for DRM.
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
Just like any smart criminal will remember to scratch off the serial number on the gun he's using, so it can't be traced?
Oh, right, that doesn't actually happen for the vast majority of cases. The fact that someone might be able to circumvent this doesn't negate its usefulness.
In fact, all those schemes people present to collect or prevent brass from being lost are impractical at best, and highly unlikely to be implemented by the common criminal. Remember, gun crimes are almost exclusively crimes of passion or with no forethought, and even in crimes where planning is well-done, the actual crime tends to be a very high-stress situation, and people are extremely likely to make mistakes.
And, how does this hinder legit gun ownership more any more than having a serial number on the gun frame? Oh, that's right, it DOESN'T.
-Erik
There are always four sides to every story: your side, their side, the truth, and what really happened.
Elected officials which put forth a bill like this should be shown the coast, and have their citizenship revoked. Everyone of the elected officials took an oath to uphold and protect the Constitution. What attempts at law making like this do, is the reciprocal of the oath they took.
Never ascribe to malice or conspiracy that which can be adequately explained by ignorance or stupidity.
Mozumder didn't believe anything he was writing. It was flamebait and he is not for gun control at all. Look at his words, "like we liberal gun-grabbers do." What real liberal would write that?
An excellent organization fighting for freedom, and entertaining forums with information on safety and legal compliance in California: www.calguns.net New shooters are welcomed and generally provided with sound advice, with an emphasis on safety and training. (Though of course this is still the internet, and there are exceptions, in general I find this to be true.)
Mozumder didn't believe anything he was writing. It was flamebait and he is is a gun owner. Look at his words, "like we liberal gun-grabbers do." What real liberal would write that?
Mozumder didn't believe anything he was writing. It was flamebait and he is against gun control. Look at his words, "like we liberal gun-grabbers do." What real liberal would write that?
The "truth" I'm referring to is the societal sense of "truth" we seem to come to regarding a situation - that is, what we (as a society) tend to collectively assign as the "most likely probability" of what happened. Think of it as the "truth" that is arrived at in a courtroom - it's an imperfect picture at best, but one which we ascribe to as the actual event. "Truth" tends to be a social illusion, allowing us to feel confident that we understand the situation. It may or may not accurately reflect the actual event.
"What really happened" is hard to describe, but I'd say that it's what recording the entire scene, beginning to end, from all possible angles so nothing was missed would produce, plus being able to fully understand everyone's intentions and how actions reflected those intentions. That is, "what really happened" is the full, actual event.
-Erik
There are always four sides to every story: your side, their side, the truth, and what really happened.
Mozumder didn't believe anything he was writing. It was flamebait and he is pro second-amendment. Look at his words, "like we liberal gun-grabbers do." What real liberal would write that?
Micro-stamping the firing pin won't be any use in the following cases
Ultimately, the only thing this law will do is lead to increased manufacturing costs for gun manufacturing companies, which raises the price of firearms. This, I suspect, is the ultimate end goal of this type of legislation. Since SCOTUS has decreed that the 2nd Amendment does allow all citizens to own firearms, anti-gun nuts are resorting to bureaucracy and cost inflation in an attempt to prevent Americans from owning firearms.
The law needs to be repealed and anyone that supported it be bounced on their butts next election.
Trying to 'combat' it this way just lends it credibility and is only a temporary measure of limiting a much larger problem.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
step 1: find someone who owns a gun to frame for the murder you want to commit
step 2: acquire several spent casings from the scapegoat's gun. this can be done before you give the gun to him/her as an anonymous gift, or by taking scapegoat to a firing range as a social outing
step 3: commit murder without being seen. swap casings from your gun with scapegoat's casings.
step 4: ???
step 5: PROFIT!
insensitive clod overlords obligatory xkcd car analogy russian reversals whoosh pedant fanbois ftfy in 3...2...1..PROFIT
The second-amendment-toting "oh I'm a genius and I can get around this therefore every criminal will as well" crowd need to wake up to the reality of crime which is often committed by stupid people. Just because a new method is "not a panacea" (to use another well-worn cliché) doesn't mean it is useless in the course of an investigation or compiling enough evidence to convict the perp.
Drill baby drill - on Mars
> It's an aid to crime solving, in the same way serial numbers on the gun itself are an aid.
The serial numbers on a gun doesn't aid in solving a crime at all. It's there mostly as an identification and tracking system. There aren't any effective matching systems between shell casing/bullet "fingerprint" and serial numbers. Maryland tried it. It failed.
Citation: http://cnsnews.com/news/article/marylands-ballistic-fingerprinting-system-proves-cumbersome
"In California, a law passed in 2007 requires that when microstamping (which is easily defeat-able) is no longer patent encumbered, all new guns in CA must use it. "
Pay a royalty and start the damn thing. It will get the inventor bank, get the black market in unstamped guns going early and strong, and get the websites about defeat means going hard.
At least the guy will get paid.
Prohobition benefits ONLY the state.
Maybe limits how you get a gun and who can get a gun, just an idea. No other country has even CLOSE to the amount of gun related violence as the USA. So take a tip from everyone else that might be a good first step.
I continue to be baffled at the "logic" of so many gun nuts.
As I understand it you'll get a government licence to drive a car, register the car with your state, register your HOUSE when you buy it, buy a government licence for your friggin DOG, and another to go hunt ducks, and another to get married (!) but any suggestion that guns should be regulated in the same way as cars makes people go ballistic.
Seems like guns are one of those things that any rational person would want to be licensed and regulated.
(Oh yeah - been around gun collectors, hunters, and guns more than enough to like and appreciate them. Just think a lot of people are awful paranoid.)
Three Squirrels
I didn't mean to imply that you could match a bullet to a gun to an owner via a gun's serial number. As maryland's experience shows, matching a bullet to some database of previously-fired bullets is very hard to do.
The "aid to investigation" from a gun's serial number is when the gun is actually found, the serial number gives a place to start investigating the ownership record (i.e. tracking).
That's exactly what the microstamping would do - once you found a case at the scene of a crime, police could look up the number in the database and figure out who registered the gun it was fired from, then start their investigation there as to where the gun was last seen, et al. Microstamping is significantly different than bullet ballistics matching.
-Erik
There are always four sides to every story: your side, their side, the truth, and what really happened.
You can file or sandpaper the firing pin and breech face, possibly applying a dot of solder first to fill the engraving in.
If this becomes widely adopted, a criminal can go to a pistol range and collect others' brass to scatter around a crime scene, and sic the cops on innocent third parties instead - and if you're shooting at a pistol range with a "microstamping" pistol you'd better be paranoid about policing your own brass to keep someone else from doing that to you!
Or, as Skycraft-fu said, buy a replacement firing pin.
Or just steal the gun, or buy a stolen gun.
Gun control laws aren't intended to reduce violent crime or make it easier to solve crimes, they are intended to create a citizenry who is helpless and dependent on the government. Look at Great Britain for fsck's sake!
This is only intended to make pistols more expensive and difficult to obtain lawfully. Nothing else.
It used to be that if a Law was hindering the exercise of a defined right, IE right to bear arms, it would be immediately deemed unconstitutional. Why do legislators get to waste taxpayers money TRYING to hinder a right?
They just have to get them, don't they?
Every day I hear how the government will protect us all if only we could get rid of _our_ guns, mind you not their guns.
I think most non stupid people understand why citizens must be armed at all times.
But there are lots of stupid people around these days, and that means its time for the wheel of history to turn.
We have banks in Europe that have unending what I would call legalized criminal activity that are putting untold generations not even born yet into bondage.
All of this criminality and injustice being fostered upon millions, many in countries without guns. They have no hope, and will be ground into the dust underfoot of their tyrants and task masters.
However, for all of the criminality you see around you printed on Drudge Report or other national news services in the country of the united states.
When they come for your your guns because only "they" can keep you safe know just one thing.
When your neighbor refuses and they start rounding people up and killing them, you better have a plan stan.
It happened before and you can rest assured it will happen again.
How you respond will determine how your sons and daughters either live as slaves or as free men and women.
-Hack
Got Geometrodynamics? Awe, too hard to figure out? Too bad.
The merit of the proposal has nothing to do with frogs. Demonising the enemy is what politicians do when they don't have a convincing argument, I strongly advise against emulating them if you don't want to become them. If your post, and the millions of others like it, are any indication of how the average american decides who to vote for, then it's self evident as to why american politics is so divisive and dishonest.
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
Guns equalize a fight, and massively up the risk even for experienced gunfighters. Without legal guns, any criminal can reliably steal from anyone he can easily best in hand-to-hand combat. In other words, without guns there is no effective defense for anyone over 60 against criminals, or for (most) women (and since 25 years or so, for most men as well, I'm pretty sure I can do whatever I want to anyone 25 or less). And please don't say "the police", we all know what the problem is with that, either in cities (criminal just hides in a crowd, potentially with the whole crowd in on it), or outside of cities (response time is > 30 mins, at which point they might as well do nothing).
As to why military guns are scary, ask the military. I believe the general gist of the answer would be "better them than us".
Here's of course the big crime of guns : they are a very blatant rejection of the idea that the state can take care of you. They limit state power over individuals, in fact they limit anyone's power over individuals. Which is a very good thing. And of course, it's a pretty blatant expose that "liberals" are 100% pro mob-rule, mostly intent destroying whatever the fashionable enemy du-jour is. It might make it very risky to attack a farm that's helping some university phds experiment with GMO. You see liberals like to attack others for perceived injustices, with themselves as "victims" even while physically attacking others. And like all bullies, they just won't stand for a real response. And like all non-flattering truths, this one is to be suppressed at all costs.
I do have one question : when is it your turn ? We've all been to high school, and we all know groups turn into mobs united against you. Tell me, when that happens, do you want a democrat or a republican police officer present ? Would you want to have a gun ?
To see just how peaceful liberalism is, you only need to count the bodies that their hero, Gandhi, has on his conscience. Because in real life, the tally easily surpasses the 10 million figure, in reality the guys is a monster, hiding behind the fact that he himself didn't attack, while ordering mobs of tens of thousands to loot pillage and burn. The point is about as valid as the fact that Hitler never himself harmed a single Jew, of course. But like all flawed reasoning that paints liberals as smart, tolerant and peaceful, it is accepted without question.
A better statement of this argument.
Oh well looks like i'm going to be picking up my brass.... Oh yeah wait I already do.
just do all your homicides with a revolver. if you need to reload, when you eject the brass from the drum take it with you. problem solved.
use a revolver. no muss, no fuss, no casings.
O.K., how many crimes have been solved because of gun registration or serial numbers?
Serial numbers aid in returning stolen and lost property. Unless you're suggesting that criminals legally purchase a gun, live in a state which requires registration, use it in a crime and then discard it at the crime scene.
I'm not opposed to serial numbers any more than I'm against any other type of personally identifying property in case it's stolen and then recovered.
Other than the usual feel-good emotions what do these requirements do to lower the rate of crime or increase the solution rate of crimes? And if they can be shown to solve either problem at what cost? Canada's gun registration costs approached $2 billion without aiding in the solution of a single crime.
The real purpose of these laws appears to be to create onerous processes in the manufacture, sale and possession of guns.
Any data will be used against you in a court of law. If the gun is stolen you will be arrested every time it's used, while a gun with a serial number only comes back to you the one time it is dropped; if you shoot someone in self-defense you'll be arrested, while a gun with a serial number can just be tossed in a river. You had to pre-prove your innocence by paying more for the registration infrastructure, but since no proof is good enough you will have to keep proving it. The vast majority of criminals are not eligible to buy guns legally so none the regulations affect them
In 2009 there were 33,808 deaths in the US from auto accidents.
In 2009 there were 31,347 deaths in the US from firearms.
The firearm deaths include
homicides 11,493
suicides 18,735
legal intervention 333 (gotta love the CDC's terminology).
unintentional 554 (I guess that's CDC speak for accidental).
I couldn't find data on the leading cause of fatal car accidents, but
for all car accidents the leading causes are:
1. Distracted Driving
2. Speeding
3. Drunk Driving
4. Reckless Driving
5. Rain
6. Running Red Lights
7. Running Stop Signs (seems like 6&7 should be combined)
8. Teenage Drivers
The list goes on.
Number one cause of distracted driving?
Nope.
Kids in the car.
more cowbell
I'd like to be the first to state that I'm worried about guns in the hands of criminals like everyone else, but I'm most certainly also worried about guns in the hands of law abiding citizens. As someone who has been mugged on multiple occasions and live in a high crime neighbourhood, the availability of guns for protection would not make me feel any safer. On the contrary, I would wonder how many potential muggers are carrying legally under the auspices of personal protection.
As a Canadian, I've never actually seen a gun outside of a museum/cops holster/docked military vessel in Lake Ontario/the odd hunting rifle. How many of you can say the same? Personally, I'd prefer it that the guy who I just accidentally cut off isn't packing heat while road rage sets in.
Whenever I hear "guns don't kill people blah blah" all I can think is "why bother with safety at all, in anything?". This argument thumbs its nose at a true cost-benefit analysis of handgun ownership and availability.
> figure out who registered the gun it was fired from
There's your first problem. There isn't a registry of guns. Some states have them. Others don't.
For example, Virginia doesn't have a registry of guns. When the police find a gun they reference it to the manufacturer and that traces back to the FFL dealer that sold the gun. The dealer then provides law enforcement with the identity of the person who purchased it. Now, after that it gets all fuzzy. In Virginia's case, private sales do not have any paper work. I could say "Yeah I sold that gun. Don't remember who I sold it to. Sorry." That'd be the end of that.
Getting states to approve a registry of guns is a bit of a challenge. Best of luck getting that done in the majority of states.
I'm a gun dealer.
Certainly there are ways to subvert this, but they're not much more likely than filing the serial number off a gun, and we all know how many guns used in crimes have them filed off (hint: not many). Gun crimes (like the vast majority of all crimes) are not well-planned by super-level-headed big brain geniuses that think of all possible outcomes, then coolly remember to execute everything flawlessly. Crime is sloppy by nature, with gun crimes even more so, so the utility of this goes up with the amount of sloppiness of the criminal. Hell, even "professional" mob hits are notoriously unprofessional.
People who get new guns (criminal or law-abiding alike) generally like to take them down to the range and fire them (or out to the desert, or in an abandoned warehouse, whatever). It doesn't take very long to wear the stamp off the firing pin -- one trip to the range can easily obliterate it. All the stamp is good for is identifying guns that have been used for the first time or nearly so. It will do nothing to identify those that actually see regular use. It sure won't do anything to catch people who use the same gun for multiple crimes, other than the first (maybe first few).
I don't know how many rounds the average person fires at the range, but I do know how many *I* fire. A typical trip will consist of three or four people and at least as many guns, which we trade off throughout the session. The cheapest to fire (the .22 rifle) usually gets used for displays of marksmanship, since a box of 500 cartridges costs a few bucks. The others still get used though, and if one of the guns is particularly sweet, it's not at all uncommon to see 50 shots run through it by EACH PERSON in the group. Even those which are inconvenient to quick-load, such as revolvers, will typically end up with 50+ shots run through them because it's better than waiting for the coveted gun to become available. Thus, if we started with four brand new guns, we'd destroy the stamp on the firing pin on ALL FOUR in just ONE shooting session.
Also, revolvers don't drop their brass unless you deliberately dump them out on the ground when reloading. What's the point of putting a number on those? As much as I prefer semi-automatic pistols, few things are as reliable as a revolver. They JUST WORK, though there is a trade-off in both power and accuracy from the gap between cylinder and barrel, and they are good choices for defense weapons that are infrequently used (thus also likely to be stolen).
How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
I'm not planning on leaving any of my brass at a crime scene.
Of course, with my .357 Mag, I don't usually leave any brass lying around anywhere.
The only objection I can see is any requirements imposed upon a gun owner to maintain the stamp. What happens if the firing pin in my target practice piece wears down and the stamp becomes illegible? Am I obliged to maintain it? Will this lead to my having to register my stamp with the authorities? If I buy a used gun and the previous owner has tampered with the stamp, will I have to verify its presence?
Have gnu, will travel.
It's NOT about matching the brass to the gun per se (in the same way that you ballistics match a bullet to a gun), it's about giving the police a place to start looking.
It's sure nice that "round up the usual suspects" works fine where you are. Turns out, that might not work too well in other places.
The tech is about "ah ha - this brass was fired from a gun last owned by Person X. Let's go start poking around him to see where that gun is now [and where that leads us]", which is eminently useful in crimes without witnesses. Certainly not useful for a conviction, but nonetheless, very useful for crimes where there's no obvious immediate suspect.
Let them have all the guns they want. Like warring factions in small third-world countries, the more guns we let them have, eventually, the less of them there will be.
Guns don't kill people. Stupid assholes with guns kill people. And, by and large, the people they kill are other stupid assholes with guns.
I would think it would be the other way around. It's the Red states doing all the whining about the rest of the US, about DC, even threatening to secede when Obama was elected, so why not do it. Leave. "Rise again."
The last time, the Civil War, there was a great risk that the division would be exploited by European powers (particularly England) to destroy the US, as well as being a rival in the race to colonise the west, but that's hardly likely any more. Even military/economic rivals like China (or Russia) wouldn't be able to use the Confederation against the US. So this time there's no reason to stop you, and I suspect no one cares enough to try.
So go. There is literally nothing stopping you. Do it. Rick Perry for Confederate President!
You'll be happier. The remaining US states will be much happier. Win win.
Just go.
But... you won't. You never will. Not now, not in 50 years, not in 150 years. Gutless loud-mouth redneck idiots.
Science is all about firing a drunk pig out of a cannon just to see what happens.
Why not pass a law which says every gun needs to drop at each discharge a piece of paper with the owner's name on it? So, any criminal can create their own magical piece of paper with somebody else's name on it? oh wait! I know, I could bribe a gun manufacturer to put the same number on every gun made on a certain day!
Foolproof. Just. Foolproof.
The reason you are unable to understand the logic is because you fail to understand history of kings, popes, and other power mongers. The 2nd AMENDMENT to the United States of America Constitution exists because my ancestors fought and WON the PRIVELEDGE to choose NO king, NO pope, and up until recently NO unchecked unelected authority telling them what to do or how to live THEIR GOD GIVEN lives. MY ancestors understood that to give up the INDIVIDUAL right to self-preservation using whatever technology can be obtained, man-made "legal restrictions" be damned, was utter foolishness.
End Of Statement
P.S. I would do away with so-called "marriage" licenses as ludicrous.
Sorry, I'm not American...
But how far does the protection of your 2nd amendment go?
Does it just cover "Bear Arms" ( http://images.sodahead.com/polls/001063269/bear_arms_xlarge.jpeg )
Or does every citizen have the right to join in on the fun of flying predator drones?
Or does it just stop at the right to collect AK-47's, uzi 9mm's and Motorcycle mounted Chain-Guns? ( http://i902.photobucket.com/albums/ac227/drdubbya/machete_060-535x327.jpg )
No. You are incorrect.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again.
There is absolutely no correlation, nor has there every been any findings of a correlation between owning a gun and shooting someone with it; compared with not owning a gun, and not shooting someone with it.
Not a shred of evidence.
[This message brought to you by GOA, who would much prefer that you never listen to Bill Hicks]
It's always the law-abiding citizen that ends up killing their ex-wife.
The focus of us liberal gun-grabbers is to remove guns from the law-abiding citizen, BEFORE they can kill their ex-wives.
all us gang member wife beating kid molesting gangsters have a right to kill all innocent with our guns for our profit yo! -___-
it's time to stop gun ownership, you're retarded enough without one...
The whole idea of using patents like this is just stupid. The government can just go "Ooop, hey our patent now" and the whole thing is moot, law goes right ahead. XD
Don't just stand there, get that other dog!
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
The 2nd ammendment is to protect U.S. citizens from it's own government. When you have these wacko politticians making unconstitutional laws it is the right of the people to defend themselves from tyranical governements.
What part of the 2nd Amendment do people not understand. It's there in balack and white. If you want to abolish it go march on Washington, hire a bunch of Lobbyist and do your best to overturn it.
However if you were alseep this past winter you missed the supreme courts decsion on the 2nd ammendment..
"The Supreme Court has now definitively held that the Second Amendment protects an individual's right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that weapon for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home. Moreover, this right applies not just to the federal government, but to states and municipalities as well."
Guns will be here until the end of time, get used to it. They aren't going away. If you want to be "safe" go live in California. I hear they love banning guns and all the gang bangers have them.
I've surveyed numerous people regarding this technology. Most with 1/2 a brain figure out how to by-pass the technology in under 30 seconds.
Do you really think a criminal is too stupid to a) file down the firing pin or b) replace it?
Micro-stamping was a badly thought out idea in which a company figured they could get rich by forcing it on gun companies through politics. But the technology failed to be viable for the cause. Which is true of MOST gun control laws.
Meanwhile, recent Auburn shooter had a number of prior arrests for weapon charges but was never prosecuted. If we can't enforce the numero uno gun control law "convicted bad guys can't have guns". But we don't enforce that law 90% of the time... and then we want to do things like ban guns that are black.
And you wonder why gun owners think gun ban advocates are dumb.
Guns are a political right; not a right to hunt. This means in opposition to the government; having a registration scheme defeats this. Certainly some other countries seem to be fine without this right -- much like they seem to be fine without the same right to be an asshole (1st amendment) that we have. And no, it probably wouldn't be the end of the world if we required people to have a license (to ensure people only said things everyone agreed with), but it is not our way in the US.
I'd like to think that we are a better society because of it. But that could be circular thinking, as I think it is one of the markers of a superior society.
For folks who might understand the internet a bit better:
firing pin serial # is like an IP #
identifying the # is not the same as identifying the person using it.
Often people identified with the # have their life turned upside down, regardless of guilt or innocence.
The world is made by those who show up for the job.
In civilian hands apparently there are about 270 million guns.
When you add in the number of guns owned by various police forces and in the military, there is a gun for everyone in the country.
According to the ATF there were ~294 million in private hands in 2007. Since then a combined ~15 million were sold in '08, '09, and '10.
For scale, the US military has ~3 million, and police forces have ~800 thousand
I said 1.5M minimum defensive gun uses a year, and tens of thousands of lives saved.
Infuriate left and right
First, Patents were never meant to stop law enforcement from using legitimate means. Governments can force reasonable royalties to the patent owner, allowing everyone to implement it properly AND the patent owner to be properly compensated. Patents aren't there to make a monopoly, and failure to properly use a patent invalidates it.
Second, Firing Pins are really easy to replace. While most criminals are not exactly master-minds, just like they know not to use a legitimate gun for crime, they will quickly learn to not use a legitimate firing pin. Even if they don't, blackmarket gun runners will probably do it for them as a basic industry practice. To combat this you will have to outlaw legitimate gun modification tools; tools that are probably already in thousands or hundreds of thousands of machine shops around the country.
Let's not forget the Iron Highway, guns that are purchased in states that require nothing more then a valid ID, and resold in states with stricter legislation. Blackmarket guns, (which, as I said, criminals already know to use for crime), will either be legitimately purchased from states where they are untraceable, or stolen, and hence again untraceable.
Last but not least, peace officers are explicitely exempt, which is the one case where you could actually ensure the law is followed.
Now if they could only patent stupidity...
There is no problem with private firearm ownership, as long as all armed homicides results in mandatory execution of the perpetrator. No insanity fraud, no prison, no converted death penalties, but actual executions taking place! You cannot have it just one way, if you have the right to kill people because of firearms, the state or the relatives of the deceased have the reciprocal right and duty to kill you. Regrettably US people are not as honourable as the corsicans, for example. Nobody stood up to execute o.j.s. after he murdered a white boss and a blonde lady and the negro-rigged jury freed him. I don't know how the relatives of the victims could look in the mirror ever since? If the state does not execute homicidors, it is the duty of relatives and friends of the victims to stand up and do their blood revenge, according to the invariable natural laws of the talio. Those how are too weak to do so, shall congregate and form blood revenge brotherhoods to help each other should such a duty arise.
There can be no 2nd amendment without capital punishment in the law! People's firearms in the non-execution US states and foreign countries must be confiscated. Similarly, non-execution countries cannot arm their policemen, unless there is a strong moral code forcing them to commit ritual suicide if they kill people unjustified. Unto me as unto you, there is no other law! Firearm identification marks serve this absolutely legitimate purpose.
" criminals are highly unlikely to be able to gather all expended brass"
Because they're too stupid to buy revolvers?
"Certainly there are ways to subvert this,"
By using a revolver?
What happens when the firing pin wears out? Do you have to get a custom pin made that has a serial number matching the firearm? Or do you buy a new pin with a different serial number and have to register it? Are you required to register your firing pins? What is the penalty for not replacing a pin that has become worn and is no longer legible? What defines legible? Is possession of a pin with a serial that does not match a firearm you own a crime? Since the firing pin is serialized and probably registered, is it now considered a firearm on its own like a lower receiver? Will possession of long skinny things without serial numbers, such as say a box of nails, now be enough to go to jail for long long time?
Is really the ultimate goal of this gun control nonsense. To reduce our freedoms, over
the span of generations, until no one can remember the freedoms they used to have
so they won't miss them. Oh, and this technology will get someone killed, as guns
are machines, and they do fail. More parts, more complexity == higher probability
of failure.
I never understood these enhanced tracing techniques, the dead body on the floor
is pretty difficult to ignore. Same argument with suppressors, sure you might be able
to get the shot off without disturbing the neighbors but all that physical and circumstantial
evidence will eventually point back to the perpetrator.
When these idiots consider legislation they should consider whether a criminal will
have more freedom than a law abiding citizen. A criminal doesn't care that the
gun has a microstamp, he stole it or got it as an illegal import, the same way
illegal drugs flow into this country. If you take a look at the ridiculous gun laws
in say Massachusetts. All of the rules create a double standard between the
citizens and the state. A citizen can't have a normal capacity magazine, but
the police can, a citizen can't have a normal trigger pull weight, but the police
can. A "gun free zone" is just a "defenseless victim zone" to a criminal.
A criminal is free to ignore all of those rules as they already operate
outside the law.
This is truly idiotic. There are hundreds of millions of guns in private hands at the present time, and guns effectively last forever. This program would be a waste of law enforcement resources. It would be expensive, time wasting, and would accomplish little or nothing.
Only US citizens (and peraphs Yemenis to their "jambiya") have this obsession with weapons :-)
Wake Up! Western films are ended!
Bye from Italy
XD9 and a Trojan. I'd rather have them and not need them, instead of need them and not have them.
The price being >0 means it will lower the number of guns sold. Not to the rich white guy pushing the law or gun collector, but to the poor black girl who is getting beaten up on a regular basis and needs one. That is why I am against "Saturday Night Special" laws. It is a form of class warfare. The liberal establishment thinks that they know what is best for someone and wont allow them to defend themselves. It is a example of Rosie O'Donnel hypocracy. You cant buy guns, but my bodyguard can. Getting brass from the police range and reloading it, will be a plot for CSI.
Correct me if I"m wrong, but can't this already be done? Ballistic markings or something or another...
Please list your full name, address, list of valuable possessions, and pictures of your spouses and children in a response to this post. We will be heading to your home directly to steal your stuff, rape your kids, and murder your entire family.
Oh, and do be sure to keep on with your advocating the disarmament of the entire law-abiding populace; it would make our job a heck of a lot easier!
Very Sincerely Yours,
Violent Criminals
Hey idiot law makers! What about revolvers? You know those guns that don't eject the casing?
Next step, stamp the casings with your IP address.
I just make my own firing pin. and barrels
Just like the serial number. Locks and serial numbers only keep honest people honest. This is just stupid legislation.
Join the Slashcott! Feb 10 thru Feb 17!
What is to stop someone from filing off the ID on the firing pin or having one made black market? Pretty simple..
Furthermore, it does nothing if the person policies their brass. (or you have a revolver)..
Dont you elites in DC have ***ANYTHING *** better to do?? Debt? Miserable dollar value? Unemployment!? Spending!?!
"There are indeed statistics on such crimes."
I can't find any actual study. Citation? or is are you just making an assumption and then say look it up because you don't actually know of any?
"which numerous studies have shown remain as numerous when guns are banned"
That's a lie.
Hear is a clue: Most suicide are spontaneous. literally, most people who decide to kill them selves do so when the right opportunity presents itself at the right moment... mostly on Wednesday.
Creepy, isn't it?
Example:
A long time ago, the favorite way for someone to kill them selves was with Coal Gas. When Britain switched from Coal Gas to a gas that wouldn't kill you, suicide rates drop buy about 30%..and didn't return.
When a research tracked down what happened to 500 people that tried to commit suicide, but where stropped by police, only 6% went on to commit suicide.
There are many studies on this .
So having an easy and mostly painless way to kill yourself in the home increases suicides.
I know, it's fucking weird, counter intuitive and unnerving.
But studies bear it out.
I mean. we are talking about average people. People who would have said earlier in the day the would never think to kill themselves, then attempt suicide.
"British gun crime went up after handguns were banned." ,(pre 2001) method of data collecting, gun violence is trending down. Which is what you would expect if gun control does reduce crimes. The redefined what light means. Pre 2005 slight mean an injury not requiring a hospital stay. In 2005 it was change so that even being threatened with a gun was considered a 'slight injury'. So you can see why the numbers would increase.
hmm. It's slight more complicated. The increase seems to have been a normal rising and falling in a longer trend. IT's not like the made it illegal and magically removed the guns.
So, does it regress to the mean? is the mean trending up or down?
Also bear in mind that the way the take statics changes. When using old
My bias is towards good data and a good policy supported by the data. The data actual shows a decrease in gun violence overall when guns are banned.
You need to understand how to look at data, and understand that the definitions of what data is collected can be changed and impact the numbers. so when A simpleton looks at the data they just see 'rise in gun violence' and concludes banning is bad. A wise person see a jump in statistics and look at the data and how is was collected and then draws there opinion.
Please be wise.
Interesting note, I want to look up the last year to add it to an overall trend, and everyplace I went to the reported an increase report the raw numbers, not per capita.
granted I only looked at a 3 or 4 sites.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
There is a comedian that had a great idea for reducing firearm related deaths (sorry no reference):
Require individual bullets to cost at least $1000 dollars each.
My idea is to Require bullet & firearm makers to create an identification system that, if tampered with, destroys the bullet.
The makers of such a technology / product will work a lot less and make a lot more in such a system. ;-)
They should be behind this idea 10,000 percent.
Let's all right to our government representatives now.
I used to read comments on slashdot to learn more about a subject, now I read them to hear all of the idiots drone on and on about how their preconceived ideas and personal bias should be everyone's preconceived ideas and personal bias.
What you think about gun control, the use of guns, the legality of guns, etc, etc; has nothing to do with this post. Look at this from a neutral position:
What does this law change?
It requires a laser engraved number on a firing pin and breach.
What are the costs to manufacturers and customers?
Requires (at least) an additional step in the manufacturing process. This cost will be passed on to consumers, both at time of new purchase and at the time of repair and/or used sale.
Who will those costs ultimately affect?
Users who wish to abide by the law.
What is the intended outcome of this law?
Make it easier to track the owner of a gun used in a crime.
How easy is it to circumvent the law to use a gun in the commission of a crime?
A bit of sandpaper on the firing pin or regular use of the gun (depending on the hardness of the firing pin)
Will this more easily find the user committing a gun crime?
Based on the ease of which this can be circumvented, no.
Who bears the majority of cost from this.
The user who abides by the law.
This story had nothing to do with killing people, a fascination with violence, an aversion to gun control, or anything else that your personal bias can dream up. Anything that ends another human life is sad and ways to stop that should always be tried. I understand that there are reasons why people take extreme sides on this issue. I guess I just thought that people on slashdot were a little less mainstream idiot and a little more fact based thinkers. Maybe I just don't want to believe the former.
The technology doesn't work. Five seconds win a nail file rendered it useless. 100 rounds at a practice range *also* render it useless. It simply does not work; it was proposed as a roundabout way of banning guns entirely. From the side, revolvers also don't leave casings at a crime scene. At best, it's going to alter gun sales, but not slow them.
What happen when someone picks up YOUR casings from the firing range and scaters them at a crime scene? That just isn't progress.
As opposed to ink fingerprinting, dumbass.
There are millions of guns in circulation, many states don't regulate anything so that means you could just go to a gun show, buy a few guns and not register it. Additionally, guns can be manufactured at home or purchased from other countries. In other words, you find a dealer, get a gun, and do whatever it is you need to do while everyone else who's carrying a gun legally, gets their privacy invaded and possibly audited. Guns are also one of the least common ways to kill people but do they put microstamps on house knives? no.
What say you Brutis?
Innocent people shouldn't be forced to pay for inferior software development.
--"Code Complete" Microsoft Press
There are almost 250 million firearms in the USA currently. New firearms are currently sold at a rate of about 4 million per year. Since this law would only apply to new firearms the folks who passed this legislation will likely be dead before even half of the firearms in the US had the microstamped firing pin. This is a great example of a law that will have no practical applications except to bolster the anti-gun resumes of some legislators.
This is just the first step. First they will require all new guns to have this microstamping. Then after a few years, ALL guns will need to be equipped with microstamps, and if you own one that is not so equipped, it needs to go back to the factory to get it or be destroyed. This is how they will get the vast majority of guns taken away from gun owners.
Workaround - use a revolver. Casings stay in the revolver.
The argument should not be about controlling the guns or the people who own them. It should be about educating people about proper use of firearms and firearm safety.
Educate children/non gun owners that yes guns are dangerous, but do not infringe on my god damned second amendment right to bear arms!
One thing I find rather striking as I browse through these comments: There are those who side with the despotic dictators of the world, and those who don't.
- X/Y -
Two Reasons to own a gun:
1. High lethality, roughly 30% of people shot will die (uncorroborated based on a couple of news reports), and we can assume a fair percent of the rest will have injuries that are short disabling in the short term or permanent.
2. Very fast to use: if loaded, pick it up or remove from holster, aim and shoot. Maybe turn the safety off. Some people in the heat of the moment skip the aiming part.
Two Reasons not to own a gun:
1. High lethality ......
2. Very fast to use
heh, being a non us citizen, i'm all for a complete gun ban in the usa, then we can finish the war of 1812 properly.. :p
Bingo.
When the gun laws in my state, California, were originally written, the legislators naturally intended that in the real world, enforcement would be at the discretion of a reasonable (White) Officer who would enforce these laws. White taxpayers would not be subjected to the same penalties. A [thug/Mexican/Black] man's concealed knife has always been a felony, whereas a [white gentleman's] concealed pistol was, at most, a misdemeanor until fairly recently. Often just an admonishment or discreet confiscation- "I'm keepin' yer pistol" (for a Throw-Down/my collection). At some point in the mid-Seventies policy shifted to zero tolerence, which was not expected when the laws were written. Unintended consequence of Civil Rights and fair enforcement of the Rule of Law. yay.
Dear anti-gun nuts,
If you somehow figure out a way to make every gun on earth vanish, people can always go back to hunting you with bow and arrow. If you don't die right away, there's always the trusty baseball bat method of finishing the job.
Sincerely,
Everyone else
If a corrupt and tyrannical government, or one that seems to be going that way, attempts to gather up all weapons, I sure hope lots of people would fight to the death to prevent themselves from being disarmed. In such a case, the more government officials killed, the better. A government that does not trust its own citizens with weapons is usually up to no good. There are a few historical counter-examples of countries disarming the populace and not yet tyrannizing them: Japan and the UK come to mind. In most historical cases disarming a population has been a early step towards killing or enslaving them. Every instance of genocide that has occurred on planet Earth, and there have been many, has had, as an early requirement, disarming the group that is slated for execution.
If one looks at the historical numbers, governments kill far more civilians than do criminals, by several orders of magnitude. This has always been the case. Historically, in many instances, an armed populace is the ONLY thing that prevents governments from acting in tyrannical and murderous ways.
A recent historical example that applies to the USA is the recent US occupation of Iraq. The occupying force (the US military) made personal possession of weapons a crime, and tried to confiscate all firearms. The USA even offered a cash bounty for every AK47 turned in. Oddly, despite there being a great many AK47s in private hands, very few Iraqi citizens turned in their guns to the US Military. For some reason it seems that most Iraqi citizens preferred to keep their assault rifles, rather than turning them over to the occupying foreign military force that was 'providing order and safety', even when possessing these firearms was a dire crime. Go figure!
It seems apropos to deliberately Godwin this thread, so I shall. Many have said that, when the Nazis started rounding up Jews, if every Jew had come out shooting (and then been killed, maybe after first killing one Nazi), the Jewish (and Gypsy, homosexual, et cetera) Holocaust would have ended before it began. This, however, was impossible, because German Jews had their weapons confiscated early in the process, and very few fought to the death to prevent themselves from being disarmed. Now we know better.
Since I've chosen to deliberately Godwin this conversation thread, I'll do it right and mention Hitler:
"The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subject races to possess arms. History shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by so doing."
- Adolf Hitler
When I was a kid, (long before lasers were available in consumer goods), I had my door shoved in, and my wife and I forced to dress at gunpoint, because the loony downstairs had reported that we were "shooting a laser gun" at her. There were five or six officers there to arrest us, with guns drawn. Fortunately, the officer in charge was reasonable and listened to me when I told him that laser guns did not exist, if they had existed I wouldn't be shooting people with it, and that my neighbor was a loon, but it could have gone differently. The young cops at the time were completely caught up in the idea that there could be a laser gun. After a while we all laughed, but it was tense for a bit.
OK, I can roll with your description. I've always taken the idea of "the truth" as some outside, omniscient overview of what happened. I see how you folding the idea of 'truth' into what we, on the inside, thing is true. So, in your terms, my idea of "truth" would be your "what really happened", right?
I may have to rethink my phrasing due to your insight of looking at an event. Very interesting.
Vote monkeys into Congress. They are cheaper and more trustworthy.
because I already hold the patent on the "technique of defeating the intent of legislation by controlling patents that are essential for the execution of said legislation." Now, where did I put my Cease & Desist form letter...
hahahaha hah and ahah ahah totally ahaha, hahaha h ahaha completly hahah ahah ahah, fucked up ahahahahahahaha crying hahahahahaha wtf hahah stupid ahahahafucking hahahahahaha, hahah retarded ahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahaha hahahah ahahahah
ahahah ahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahah ahahahahahahah ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah ahahahahahahahahahahaha hahaha
This seems easily implemented by the common criminal.
who prays for Satan? Who in 18 centuries has had the humanity to pray for the 1 sinner that needed it most? ~Mark Twain
nothing a single pass with a file wont fix