Slashdot Mirror


Linux Is a Lemon On the Retina MacBook Pro

An anonymous reader writes "It turns out that Linux doesn't work too well on the Apple Retina MacBook Pro. Among the problems are needing special boot parameters to simply boot the Linux kernel, graphics drivers not working, no hybrid graphics support, WiFi requiring special firmware, Thunderbolt troubles, GNOME/Unity/KDE not being optimized for retina displays, and other snafus, including 20% greater power consumption with Linux over OS X. According to Michael Larabel, it will likely not be until early next year when most of the problems are ironed out for a clean 'out of the box' Linux experience on the Retina MacBook Pro."

521 of 780 comments (clear)

  1. Proof at last! by oldmac31310 · · Score: 5, Funny

    This proves it for once and for all. Apple is evil!!! What?

    --
    http://www.acetonestudio.com
    1. Re:Proof at last! by Krojack · · Score: 3, Insightful

      woooooooosh..

      Did you hear that?

    2. Re:Proof at last! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Well for my anecdotal hyperbole it sounds like every Windows installation I've ever done. Seems I need to download the network card drivers and change the display setting from VGA in a box that doesn't fit in VGA. Seriously, installing an operating system is never a piece of cake unless you have an OS image that is specific to the hardware you're installing it to. In that case it's always a piece of cake regardless of which OS it is.

    3. Re:Proof at last! by mcgrew · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It's been a while since you tried Linux, hasn't it? If not, you've chosen the wrong distro, which is what I suspect happened here (haven't RTFA yet). It's been five years since I've had any such issues.

      That's the thing -- there is no Linux, there are a lot of Linuxes. For an example, in another thread a while ago someone was complaining that he couldn't play MP3s on his Linux box... of course not, he was running Red Hat.

      OK, I'm back, just read the iApple ad (RTFA in this case means "read the fucking ad"). There's nothing there but pretty pictures of the macbook, descriptions of what a fine piece of equipment it is, and just says "Linux" without saying what distro, how he tried to install it, etc.

      In short, TFA is bullshit. Tell me what distro you're trying to run! What drivers are lacking. If you've ever installed any OS on any computer.

    4. Re:Proof at last! by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      Well, the whole hybrid GPU thing is a low level device driver issue that's still not entirely resolved. It's a new thing even by Windows standards and a bit of a hack.

      Although Linux should have at least defaulted to the crappy intel embedded graphics.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    5. Re:Proof at last! by MikeBabcock · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Linux has shipped with more hardware support out of the box than Windows for ages now. You just don't care that you have to download Windows drivers for hardware because its normal to you.

      --
      - Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
    6. Re:Proof at last! by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 2

      "I don't think so, since this sounds like every linux installation I've ever done."

      So you tried one obscure Linux distribution in 1997 then?

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    7. Re:Proof at last! by TheNinjaroach · · Score: 1

      I don't think so, since this sounds like every linux installation I've ever done. Some main component never works OOB

      You should try a Thinkpad.

      --
      I went to eat some animal crackers and the box said, "Do not eat if seal is broken." I opened the box and sure enough..
    8. Re:Proof at last! by mwvdlee · · Score: 1

      This type of fuel doesn't work in any car I tried. Some part of the engine always blows up.

      You should try a 1930 Studebaker Phaeton.

      You're replacing the most expensive part in order to make the cheap part work; that's not a good solution to any problem.

      --
      Slashdot social media options: AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, Jabber and Mobile Text. Why no MySpace?
    9. Re:Proof at last! by Vintermann · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Installing Ubuntu has been a piece of cake on every system I've done it on over the years.

      When I was asked by some friends to assist with a Windows installation, I was very surprised at how much manual work it was (getting the wireless drivers to work, for instance - that used to be a problem on Linux around 2003).

      It's no surprise Ubuntu is easier to install than Windows, because Microsoft would much rather you have the OEM do it for you.

      --
      xkcd is not in the sudoers file. This incident will be reported.
    10. Re:Proof at last! by Mitreya · · Score: 1

      Linux has shipped with more hardware support out of the box than Windows for ages now. You just don't care that you have to download Windows drivers for hardware because its normal to you.

      I don't know what that measure means. There is plenty of hardware that is simply not supported (or supported poorly) by Linux. That's the measure that matters -- I don't mind downloading drivers as long as I can get them at all.
      Yes, I know that manufacturers don't open specs and write Windows-only drivers. I know it's not Linux's fault. But it doesn't help me as the end-user.

    11. Re:Proof at last! by Sir_Sri · · Score: 4, Interesting

      You just don't care that you have to download Windows drivers for hardware because its normal to you

      Which kind of takes away the advantage of support out of the box.

      This is one of those points where it's only the marginal cases that matter. Whether I need to download drivers to reach the full potential of my video card or they come pre installed is of minimal importance, because there are only basically 3 video card makers and I either can find them easily, or I need someone else to manage my computer for me no matter what, because I can't find www.nvidia.com, click the drivers, GPU drivers, then auto detect buttons, I'm not capable of managing my own computer, windows or linux.

      On the other hand, if I have some bizarro SATA controller on my MOBO or a video card from SIS or matrox or one of the other boutique guys or some other random weird crap on my computer I'm still probably going to have to find drivers for something, and it's a pain in the arse because you may have to navigate some taiwanese website looking for some numbers in the hopes that they will point you to the right driver. And that's about equally bad for both linux and windows, assuming you can find drivers at all, and assuming they would do anything on linux if you needed them.

      Which takes us to why Linux doesn't work on a retina macbook. The APIC intel mobo thing seems like that's actually a linux bug, whatever they happen, I'm not going to rail on the Linux dev guys about it. But the rest of it seems to be all the marginal case stuff, some custom apple thunderbolt part that you need to get working so you can transfer over files to support some other custom apple part (or at least very new part that is currently only supported by apple). No one ever seriously thought a 2880x 1800 display was going to exist (same ratios at 1440x900 but 4x the pixels), so it works like shit, the wifi is probably some custom part, so it doesn't work, the GPU switching thing is relatively new, so it's hard to say if that's a newness problem or a custom Apple way of GPU switching problem. For windows you're stuck waiting for Apple to release a driver kit (although the retina display thing can be solved through nvidia's website), and everything else is about as bad as linux. In both cases you're waiting on someone else to solve the problem for you as an end user. On linux you're waiting for someone to basically reverse engineer the parts, on Windows you're waiting for Apple to release a boot camp disk or money to change hands and Microsoft to write their own.

      So sure, Linux has more support out of the box, but if it doesn't support the marginal case stuff that's hard for me to find fixes for then it's not getting me a whole lot over windows (at least in terms of driver support). As is well exemplified by the macbook retina display, which is basically a series of edge cases linux doesn't support yet, and neither does microsoft. That's probably Apple being assholes more than the fault of the other two, but either way, the linux setup experience isn't winning out over windows.

    12. Re:Proof at last! by cheesybagel · · Score: 1

      Try not buying a graphics card which was released this week or something and you will probably be fine. First time I did an install on my current computer there were no problems detecting anything. The situation has gotten better recently since most hardware comes integrated with the chipset or the CPU and those are typically very well supported. Considering how Apple sources their components it is hardly surprising there are issues running Linux in a Mac.

    13. Re:Proof at last! by cheater512 · · Score: 2

      I had a computer back in the day, a good Pentium 3 with a standard Intel motherboard and nothing too fancy at all.

      Windows XP out of the box had no: Network, video, usb, audio, or anything except basic video, keyboard, mouse and cdrom.
      To get it to work you'd have to download the drivers off the net, burn them to a CD on another computer then pop the cd in.
      The computer was a couple of years older than XP too!

    14. Re:Proof at last! by __aaqvdr516 · · Score: 1

      Linux is the new "no true Scotsman" case apparently.

      It's pretty much been the case that unless the vendor provides support it can be years before a device is truly supported, if ever. I'm sure Apple isn't exactly jumping at the chance to provide the necessary support to help out anyone who wants to install anything other than Mac approved OS changes.

    15. Re:Proof at last! by ilikenwf · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Where is the "find drivers" button? Or right its called "Google your damned ass off" and you had BETTER know the exact make/rev/model of driver you need and pray to a statue of RMS someone has one. Even if they DO have one you better have enough skillz to be able to tweak that sucker, because it'll no doubt be written for make f, rev g, firmware h and you'll have make F, rev I, firmware j and the picky bastard just won't work.

      It's not 1997 anymore...the kernel has 99% of the drivers you'll need, unless you need a proprietary one or something that's up for inclusion in the kernel that hasn't made it into the stable version yet.

    16. Re:Proof at last! by jbolden · · Score: 1

      Seems to me a company that publishes source to their kernel is being rather helpful: http://svn.macosforge.org/repository/darwinbuild/trunk/

    17. Re:Proof at last! by tibman · · Score: 2

      The best part is where you spend hours installing all the updates.

      --
      http://soylentnews.org/~tibman
    18. Re:Proof at last! by tqk · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Installing Ubuntu has been a piece of cake on every system I've done it on over the years.

      You haven't been trying hard enough. I love Linux, and the *BSDs, but we're always going to find ourselves chasing hardware support since the manufacturers (well, many) couldn't care less about supporting us and they love to stick us with so far unsupported (by the devs) proprietary stuff. Even if you stick to older hardware to give the devs a chance to do something with that crap, some systems will inevitably fall through the cracks. I'm mostly talking about laptops in my case. In my experience, first it was video that could only barely (if at all) do X, then Winmodems (bleah!), then network interfaces, then sound, now WiFi. It doesn't much help when curveballs like PulseAudio get tossed in at the last minute. My HP dv4 AMD 64 bit Turion machine still won't do sound (using Debian testing), while my 32 bit Gateway AMD Sempron does *everything* swimmingly (running Debian stable).

      I just spent a weekend trying distro after distro trying to find one that even detected the internal wifi in an Inspiron 1525. Finally, LinuxMint did. Woohoo! Unfortunately, it refuses to connect to my parents wifi router, while it has no trouble with my sister's. Needs research, and a wired connection (which isn't easy to do these days, damnit); pain in the butt. Sucks to be us sometimes, dependent upon hardware support.

      Don't get me wrong, it's a lot better now than it used to be and live CDs/DVDs make the process a lot easier than it used to be, but there'll always be rotten boxes that refuse to play nice. Still better than banging your head on Win* and Mac, though.

      --
      "Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit ..." -- Pink Floyd.
    19. Re:Proof at last! by complete+loony · · Score: 2

      Here's another link explaining some of the issues with getting thunderbolt to work.

      --
      09F91102 no, 455FE104 nope, F190A1E8 uh-uh, 7A5F8A09 that's not it, C87294CE no. Ah! 452F6E403CDF10714E41DFAA257D313F.
    20. Re:Proof at last! by tqk · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Now lets compare this to Linux: Where is the "find drivers" button? Or right its called "Google your damned ass off" ...

      No, at least in LinuxMint it's the "Find Proprietary Drivers" icon.

      If you haven't even tried to run a LiveCD in a decade, why would you consider yourself qualified to criticize it?

      --
      "Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit ..." -- Pink Floyd.
    21. Re:Proof at last! by ooshna · · Score: 3, Interesting

      You haven't installed Windows 7 have you? As surprising as it might sound Windows 7 is actually really good at installing the drivers for most hardware OOB even wireless cards then when you run windows update the first time it will almost always find and install the missing drivers. I've only had one or two weird pieces of hardware it couldn't find drivers for and one of those was because they didn't make a 64bit driver for it.

    22. Re:Proof at last! by tqk · · Score: 2

      Yes, I know that manufacturers don't open specs and write Windows-only drivers. I know it's not Linux's fault.

      At least once it is supported, it generally stays supported. Unlike the others that rip out support for old hardware that's no longer bleeding edge.

      --
      "Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit ..." -- Pink Floyd.
    23. Re:Proof at last! by inu_maru · · Score: 1

      > Now lets compare this to Linux: Where is the "find drivers" button?

      Uh, at least from Ubuntu 10.04 that'll be the "Hardware Drivers" applet found under System->Administration->Hardware Drivers.

      --
      Mu
    24. Re:Proof at last! by Smauler · · Score: 2

      As proof : Vista crashes to blue screen on my motherboard (nvidia) with 4gb of ram or above, on install. No warning errors, not a helpful blue screen (though you can't hold it either, because it's on install), it just blue screens and reboots. The solution is to install with 2gb, apply the hotfix (or SP1 and/or 2), put your other ram in, then reboot. Dunno what the solution would be if you only have 4gb sticks. This was not an isolated case - everyone with nvidia and 4gb of RAM had this bug.

      That being said, after that hurdle was overcome, Vista has been great for me.

    25. Re:Proof at last! by mug+funky · · Score: 1

      so how'd you get the time travel driver to work and let you send your post 5 years into the future from where you are?

      drivers are an unstable mess in _every_ operating system. it's amazing that there's a single working box out there anywhere, the way things are run.

      i only use windows at work for 2 things (mainly 1 really - DVDmaestro doesn't work so well in wine).

      i concede the user experience is drastically different between linux, windows and osx.

      linux implies tinkerers who will never give up until $RANDOM_HARDWARE is working fully. they'll shout and swear and will be well aware of how fucked the situation can get, but they wont have it any other way because their machine is THEIRS, dammit, and total control is the only way.

      a mac user when faced with some hardware that wont run will just buy another that will (possibly not even bothering to return the unsupported one). the min wage guy at the genius bar will also sell them a couple of RAM sticks, because that's the apple equivalent of nuking the site from orbit. (that and trashing the prefs, and flashing the PRAM).

      windows user will go online to get drivers, navigate ugly photoshop-plastic-wrap sites, download over a gig of crapware, find it not working, return to google, download something dodgy and brick their computer with OVER 9000 trojans. then buy a new computer, rinse and repeat.

      the only one that doesn't want something for free is the mac user. i'm not sure what that implies about anybody though. when i use windows i feel entitlement, when i use linux i feel amazed that someone out there was nice enough to give me something, and when i use a mac i find myself spending half the time in terminal anyway - it's like a big, beautiful desert with fuck-all in it.

    26. Re:Proof at last! by TranquilVoid · · Score: 1

      It astonishes me every time I do an update on Windows just how long it takes to analyse which ones you need. Sure there's side-by-side DLL complexity and so on, but I try to imagine how I would program such a system and can't for the life of me figure out how it would take more than a few seconds once it has received a few K to a MB of info on new packages.

      It's even worse considering how standardised an environment Windows is compared to Linux - a distro typically manages a lot more software and variations.

      Windows 7 is definitely an improvement for installation simplicity though.

    27. Re:Proof at last! by hairyfeet · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Ubuntu 11 new enough for you? I ended up with two half ass working devices (as in "it works right now, cough and it won't") and one that supposedly was 'working" in the it would connect...as long as security wasn't anything you actually cared about on your wireless network.

      Frankly I'm so God damned sick of FOSS zealots going "La la la no problems exist, its all candy and RMS in a dress passing flowers la la la" if I ever run into one on the street I'm just gonna bitchslap them, i swear to fricking God.

      It is YOU and your type that continue to take the shit shoveled by the devs that make sure Linux doesn't go anywhere. if Linus "ego come and it won't go away" was working on a proprietary OS his ass would have been pink slipped so fast it'd make his head spin, but because the OS he works on is "free" that means he can crap in a box and nobody will say boo. if I hand you a sandwich that is 95% shit and 5% ham, would you call it a ham sandwich?

      Hell even one of the Red Hat devs says Linux is in its death cries because of one bad move after another that has made the entire system a fucking mess, but will anybody listen? Nope, they'll just go "La la la" and then mod down anybody who points out emperor RMS is walking bare assed. If you'd like a list of fucked up shit here is a small one, only about two hundred major problems that just FYI many of which have been there for YEARS.

      In the end I'll happily take the pepsi challenge with ANY user of Linux and LMAO when it falls down and goes Boom! Take any "normal" distro, don't give me that LTS bullshit because as we've seen with Ubuntu LTS means "see this list of things we fixed? Well fuck off, you can't have it unless you upgrade biotch" that was released at the same time as Win 7, install it clean, NO forum hunts or googling fixes allowed, and IF, which is a big fucking if, if you have the drivers working OOTB upgrade it to current and see what you are left with at the end. I can tell you because I've done it with over a dozen Linux distros and what you get is a pile of broken garbage, drivers fucked, programs gone to shit, its a mess. And don't try to pull that "Windows has to be installed clean too!" horseshit because you get TEN YEARS of updates minimum with windows, with Linux if you get a year and a half before doing the upgrade shuffle its a fucking miracle.

      So far the ONLY one that has come close to passing the Hairyfeet challenge is RHEL which surprise! Costs $400 a year. Windows? $40 if you want Win 8, $80 if you want Win 7...kinda a BIG fricking difference there huh?

      if you wanna push "free as in freedom!" or the whole "Linux works on dumpster dived hardware!" that's cool, but don't fucking lie. it makes the whole Linux community look like a bunch of FOSSies, with little RMS altars and pictures of Linus with hearts around it. Hell even Dell, one of the biggest OEMs on the fricking planet has to run their own repos because the drivers shit themselves....great QC you got there. Meanwhile the XP machine I'm typing on with an OS install from 2004 is running just fine with original drivers and the whole system is updated to current. And don't give me the "U must have teh viruz!" horseshit because any one of a dozen free AVs and 10 minutes of instruction from me and there ain't no fucking viruses getting on my builds. Yeah....no fricking contest, WinVista on its worse day is 1000 times better.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    28. Re:Proof at last! by TranquilVoid · · Score: 1

      From the first picture in the article the author is using Ubuntu with Unity which would make it 11.10 or 12.04.

    29. Re:Proof at last! by Anpheus · · Score: 1

      More != better.

    30. Re:Proof at last! by caitsith01 · · Score: 2, Funny

      It's not 1997 anymore...the kernel has 99% of the drivers you'll need, unless you need a proprietary one or something that's up for inclusion in the kernel that hasn't made it into the stable version yet.

      Or unless you want to do something really bizarre like using wifi to connect to a network...

      --
      Read Pynchon.
    31. Re:Proof at last! by zippthorne · · Score: 3, Funny

      If they say "linux" without specifying a distro, obviously, they must be talking about LFS. That's going to be tricky no matter what hardware you try to put it on, and it's certainly not going to "just work" right out of the box...

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    32. Re:Proof at last! by Envy+Life · · Score: 1

      The article says "In terms of Linux on the mid-2012 Retina MacBook Pro, I have tried Ubuntu 12.04 LTS, recent Ubuntu 12.10 development snapshots, and various other Linux distributions."

    33. Re:Proof at last! by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Now lets compare this to Linux: Where is the "find drivers" button? Or right its called "Google your damned ass off"

      The same one I needed for HP Plotters on Windows7 :(
      Drivers suck. The only reason they usually don't on linux and windows7 is a lot of them come with the systems.

    34. Re:Proof at last! by jones_supa · · Score: 1

      I agree. While I like to rant every now and then about brokenness of Linux, the drivers are actually not a big problem anymore.

      In Linux there's also the advantage that you can move the system disk to another machine (well, on typical PC setup) without reinstallation.

    35. Re:Proof at last! by jones_supa · · Score: 1

      I'm also very curious about why it takes so long to check for updates and install them.

    36. Re:Proof at last! by denilson3 · · Score: 2

      Windows 8 seems a lot quicker at this. Now if only metro wasnt such a disaster on the desktop.

    37. Re:Proof at last! by arkane1234 · · Score: 1

      Right... like LFS [linuxfromscratch.org].
      Like the GP said.

      --
      -- This space for lease, low setup fee, inquire within!
    38. Re:Proof at last! by Compaqt · · Score: 1

      FYI, if you're on Precise Pangolin (Ubuntu 12.04), hit the Unity button and type "Drivers". Click on Additional Drivers.

      --
      I'm not a lawyer, but I play one on the Internet. Blog
    39. Re:Proof at last! by Compaqt · · Score: 1

      Are you talking about Win or Lin?

      AFAIK, if you install an LTS like Ubuntu 12.04 a few months after the release date, first you'll download and install a CD's worth of OS.

      Then you'll download and install an equivalent amount of updates, since just about every package in the system has had an update in the meantime.

      --
      I'm not a lawyer, but I play one on the Internet. Blog
    40. Re:Proof at last! by justforgetme · · Score: 1

      ... which then brake your system!

      --
      -- no sig today
    41. Re:Proof at last! by justforgetme · · Score: 1

      One problem that came to mind when I first thought about Linux on the retina Mac Books is that the compositors won't work out of the box since afaik compiz (which is inside gnome and unity) doesn't work for resolutions over 2ki*2ki

      I guess that could be easily fixed in the source but who takes the time to look at that one... plus I've heard recompiling Mutter can be a bit sketchy at times...

      --
      -- no sig today
    42. Re:Proof at last! by Vintermann · · Score: 2

      In my experience, first it was video that could only barely (if at all) do X, then Winmodems (bleah!), then network interfaces, then sound, now WiFi.

      That was my order of troubles also (well, except for sound. Sound?), it's just that the last step of it happened 5-7 years ago.

      --
      xkcd is not in the sudoers file. This incident will be reported.
    43. Re:Proof at last! by robi5 · · Score: 1

      > No one ever seriously thought a 2880x 1800 display was going to exist

      Maybe it should be assumed that an N x M display will exist, where N and M are natural numbers. It'll be OK until the introduction of oval etc. displays.

    44. Re:Proof at last! by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 1

      Hardly. Between NVidia drivers and their misshapen proprietary libraries, and the giant dripping cluster*** that is the new oversold, underperforming 10GBit cards from HP, along with every MegaRAID SCSI card ever made (which are, admittedly, complete donkey apples), and the endless churn of mislabeled and broken "features" of wifi chipsets that don't work even *with* the drivers, it's still often difficult to get things working right on leading edge laptops or underpriced pizza boxes.

      It's that 1% that tends to show up in those very, very cheap or very, very expensive systems that will make people tear their harir out in both Linux and in the rest of the support world.

    45. Re:Proof at last! by jeremyp · · Score: 1

      Your criticisms of the article are partly valid. I say "partly" because you have clearly only partly read the article. For instance, the question of which Linux distro is answered in the first paragraph of page 2. My guess is that you read the first page and thought that was the whole thing. There are three more pages after that.

      --
      All I want is a secure system where it's easy to do anything I want. Is that too much to ask ~~ Randall Munroe
    46. Re:Proof at last! by andy16666 · · Score: 1

      I think if you've done enough installs of each, you'd know exactly what the he is talking about. In my experience, it's fairly rare to ever have to do anything besides install Linux to get all hardware working. The exceptions are on very new hardware where sometimes drivers have not been released for Linux yet or using unusually old Linux versions.

      On most versions of Windows the experience is quite different. To get a system functional, one generally needs to track down drivers for each piece of hardware individually, usually from the manufacturer's website. To do this often requires opening up the case of the PC to see what hardware is installed, using another computer with a working internet connection to download the drivers and transfer them via physical media to the new install. This is usually necessary since network adapters are generally non functional under windows immediately after install.

      Really, unless you're set up for it and know the specific hardware you're installing on, a Windows install really is a full day affair, whereas Linux installs usually just work. While this isn't always the case, the vast majority of the time it is.

      This isn't an endorsement of Linux on the desktop by any means. It's just a fact that Linux usually has all the drivers you need bundled with the kernel.

    47. Re:Proof at last! by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      You're right, I didn't see that there was more. Probably wouldn't have clicked if I had, though.

    48. Re:Proof at last! by tibman · · Score: 1

      If you want to install an up-to-date system you would use the net-installer. This will download and install your OS with the very latest of everything, no post install updating is required.

      If you prefer to install a six month old version then update it later, you can do that too. But net-install is far better.

      --
      http://soylentnews.org/~tibman
    49. Re:Proof at last! by slashmydots · · Score: 1

      This proves it for once and for all. Apple is evil!!! What?

      Speaking of that, what Linux person would buy an Apple product?! They're like polar opposites. Apple is overcontrolling, monopolizing, absolute power over all their products from parts to price to the OS to their ridiculous EULAs. That's not real Linux friendly. Plus, isn't price a big plus for Linux? With Apple, well, there goes the price lol. ASUS builds most of the Apple Macbooks so just get an ASUS. They just won #1 least likely to break laptop in 2012.

    50. Re:Proof at last! by shakezula · · Score: 1

      Aww, tell us how you really feel....

      --
      I know what you're thinking. Did I forward 65,535 packets or 65,536 packets?
    51. Re:Proof at last! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Or unless you want to do something really bizarre like using wifi to connect to a network...

      The only bizarre thing I've seen trouble with is trying to install Linux on an Apple product. One of the most unstable, closed systems doesn't play well with the most stable, open system that exists? Surprise, surprise. Putting Linux on an Apple product is like putting lipstick on a pig. If you are using Linux, you probably have the knowledge to assemble your own system from parts, which means you should know just how much of a ripoff Apple hardware is compared to the price you're paying for it. Seriously, you do not need a $900 processor for a system just to check email and facebook, like many people end up paying.

    52. Re:Proof at last! by TheNinjaroach · · Score: 1

      You're replacing the most expensive part in order to make the cheap part work; that's not a good solution to any problem.

      How does that make any sense? I'm not replacing anything except an OS. I just buy my hardware right the first time.

      --
      I went to eat some animal crackers and the box said, "Do not eat if seal is broken." I opened the box and sure enough..
    53. Re:Proof at last! by darkpixel2k · · Score: 4, Funny

      woooooooosh..

      Did you hear that?

      No, my sound card doesn't work under Linux.

      --
      There's no place like ::1 (I've completed my transition to IPv6)
    54. Re:Proof at last! by Compaqt · · Score: 1

      Oh, OK, thanks.

      But that means you have to do that for every computer you're installing for.

      It would be handy if they had an updated ISO for download.

      If you want to avoid that, I guess the only option is to run a local repository.

      --
      I'm not a lawyer, but I play one on the Internet. Blog
    55. Re:Proof at last! by Sir_Sri · · Score: 1

      That's how 3D engines game engines work, but pixel density has remained in a very narrow range for years, deliberately, the whole GPU/Monitor/Design infrastructure is built up around that density range, Apple making something completely different is out on the fringes precisely because the technology to do so has been around for a while but no one, not hardware or software guys thought it was a good idea. Just supporting 4 regular laptop screens duct taped together in a 'eyefinity' type setup would probably work fine on linux, (if not, it certainly would on windows, since you can do that with every other display) but the increased density... not so much.

      In a sense this is an accessibility issue, everything now takes 1/4 the size it was expected to, which is the same problem as someone who has 1/4 the vision of normal so you need to magnify everything 4x. There are companies that make specialized equipment or software to do so, and there are accessibility tools in windows and linux to try and do it, but they have always been sub par for general use.

    56. Re:Proof at last! by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      Hey I'll have you know I have every damned right to be angry and frankly you should be too, as many of the problems in Linux don't have a technical reason, its all dogma, bullshit, and ego.

      What do BSD, Solaris, OS/2, Windows, and OSX all have in common? A stable hardware ABI that lets the devs worry about the fucking system core and the hardware manufacturers worry about the fucking drivers, that's what. There is a REASON you can take a Win2K driver and slap it on XP, or a Vista driver on 7, because thanks to MSFT having a stable ABI they change only once a decade the OEMs can "write once, use for years" which makes a hell of a lot of the problems go bye bye.

      Why doesn't Linux have one? Fucking religious dogma and Linus' big fat ego, that's why. The ONLY thing you'll find by kernel devs against an ABI is a RELIGIOUS TRACT that goes so far as to say "I hope those that use non free drivers get them broken constantly!". Now can you fucking imagine anyone on the OSX team saying that? Know how fast his ass would be iFired? Oh and BTW they ALREADY HAVE BINARY DRIVERS so the whole fucking religious angle is completely POINTLESS, all it does is makes sure many OEMs will simply not bother. The other reason is Linus' "I'm a superdouche" Torvalds swore up and down he didn't need an ABI...in 1994. Well in 1994 there were less than 50 driver all told for Linux and maybe half that many packages. Would you want YOUR OS to be based on what the original designer thought was right in 1994? Its as stupid as saying the old Bill Gates "640k" line was true but that Bill refused to upgrade the design because it would make that statement false!

      I could go on all day pal, things getting thrown out the second they start getting stable for some asshole dev to scratch and itch and send everything back 5 years on quality, like with pukeaudio and the DEs, everyone reinventing the wheel rather than working together, a community that thinks a CLI interface from 1978 is the height of development and should be leaned on like a crutch...but why bother? Its never gonna get any better, not as long as its controlled by douchebags like Torvalds and those that treat FOSS as a religion. The best quote about Linux I've ever seen is "Linux is always looking to be ready for the masses in about three years...only it never gets any better" and the guy fucking nailed it. The drivers don't get any better, the system doesn't ever get stable, its nothing but a million devs scratching itches which is why it'll always be a programmer's toy until someone like Google takes it away and shows how to make the fucking thing work. Devs without someone to crack the whip is like herding cats and will never get their shit together, its just a mess.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    57. Re:Proof at last! by Cute+Fuzzy+Bunny · · Score: 1

      This proves it for once and for all. Apple is evil!!! What?

      I don't think so, since this sounds like every linux installation I've ever done. Some main component never works OOB, I always have to edit a bunch of files and download all sorts of odds and ends before I have a running machine.

      Wow that was a fun ride...modded from zero to four to -1. I guess the people who knew I'm telling the truth modded me up, and those trying to hide the fact that there isnt a linux distro that can reliably install on more than 3-4 out of every ten common configurations, without performing a bunch of post-installation shenanigans. If you're lucky, you get to do the post install shenanigans with a working network connection, but thats not super likely.

    58. Re:Proof at last! by Cute+Fuzzy+Bunny · · Score: 1

      It's been a while since you tried Linux, hasn't it? If not, you've chosen the wrong distro, which is what I suspect happened her

      Not long at all. And its the same thing every time I install, over perhaps a 5-6 year period? I usually go with ubuntu. Had a laptop where the video wouldn't work because the company that made the video didn't lick the right open source tabs, so ubuntu didn't include the driver. Had a laptop where the common as hell wireless network card wasn't supported OOB.

      You'll have to bear in mind that my unix travels started with being one of the people at DEC that put out Ultrix V1.0, so I'm not exactly inexperienced with it and I generally can make it work in an hour or two. But its also quite obvious to me that the 'politeness' around open source and the lack of cohesive linux support by many hardware companies creates an inability for an average tech person to install a distro on common hardware platforms without performing a fair bit of post install stuff.

      I'm afraid windows 7 has spoiled me. I stick it in anything made in the last 10 years and with few exceptions I have a fully running system about 15-45 minutes later.

    59. Re:Proof at last! by tqk · · Score: 1

      In my experience, first it was video that could only barely (if at all) do X, then Winmodems (bleah!), then network interfaces, then sound, now WiFi.

      That was my order of troubles also (well, except for sound. Sound?), it's just that the last step of it happened 5-7 years ago.

      I don't much care about sound either, but it's useful for when friends elsewhere send me DVDs that I can only play in Linux (region encoding). As for WiFi, I was slow to the game. I didn't bother with it until recently. *My* two boxes have no trouble with it, but this Inspiron 1525 (that my step-dad found discarded in an alley) does. I'll figure it out. I used to own an i4k that had no trouble with anything. This 1525 is just one of those "gotchas" that show up from time to time ("Rasafrackin', jiggafriggen ...").

      --
      "Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit ..." -- Pink Floyd.
    60. Re:Proof at last! by mgcarley · · Score: 1

      What hardware are you running? I don't seem to recall having to do anything spectacular to get any of the distros (usually Ubuntu, occasionally SuSE, more lately Mint) working on any of the laptops I've had since 2005.

      On my current machine (Toshiba Satellite), eSATA, WiFi, the Webcam and all my USB devices (including 2 Nokia phones & a Blackberry) work just fine, although I've been passing these through in to a VirtualBox Windows XP installation because Wammu doesn't do what I want it to (convert an SQL database to CSV, import the CSV file to Outlook and sync with contacts in Nokia Suite to sync with the phone, the only part which actually takes any significant time being the tidying up of the CSV file for import and which really doesn't have anything to do with which OS I use for that).

      Other than that I'm not having any difficulties using Linux for Business, Personal and Technical reasons. For personal use, Flash in Chrome works fine and most of the apps I'd be using on Windows are available in Linux - VLC, Pidgin, Skype etc - anyway.

      For technical use, I can SSH directly from terminal (no PuTTY needed). I was using Deluge for torrents but am now using uTorrent under WINE because somehow it just seems better. I haven't found a good replacement for WinSCP though (my server doesn't have FTP/SFTP enabled...) so I'm using that under WINE as well.

      For business use, the only issues I've had involve Adobe Creative Suite and the aforementioned part about still having to boot up a Windows virtual machine to use Nokia suite - but my accounting software has shifted to a web-based platform, I get on just fine with LibreOffice and Thunderbird gives me far more flexibility than Outlook (I used Thunderbird on Windows anyway).

      As an added bonus, my important files are automatically backed up to Google Drive, DropBox and UbuntuOne. I've customized the Unity bar to largely disappear and have replaced that with CairoDock and using the Super (Windows) Key brings up the HUD, which I actually kinda like because I feel it to be more efficient than using a menu anyway since I can type the first few letters of whatever I'm looking for and get results pretty quickly.

      As mentioned earlier, on my three previous laptops (2 HPs and before that an Acer) I've been dual-booting Linux (usually Ubuntu) since 2005 but never really had any issues - back in the day I may have had to do some configuration for X but it's been a long time since I had to touch a configuration file for anything to get hardware working - software is a little bit of a different story (for example associating .torrent files and magnet links with uTorrent) but again, this doesn't relate to the type of issues you're talking about.

      So there could be two things at play here: either I'm extraordinarily lucky, or, since I'm using "common" hardware rather than bleeding edge stuff I'm managing to ensure for myself a Linux experience where stuff "just works": this may just be the key and seems to fit with the premise behind the original headline. Apple has designed the Retina MBP for use with OS-X (and built OS-X modules to deal with the hardware accordingly - such is their privilege for controlling the whole hardware/software eco-system), whereas the Linux community has not yet been able to do that and I suspect there won't be any Windows drivers either.

      In my own experience, I have installed countless Windows machines (I used to work for a small local manufacturer around the time of XP's release and part of my job was preparing the software for the users -including Windows Update and applications that they wanted installed - prior to running sysprep and sealing the machine up for them) and I got in to the habit of baking software-install CDs to save me time which would be updated about once a month - it saved me from waiting for WindowsUpdate to download what was then even many hundreds of megabytes each for a few dozen machines per day (the drive images weren't updated nearly as often). The very fact that I had to

      --
      Founder & COO, Hayai India (hayai.in) / USA (hayaibroadband.com) // t: @mgcarley
    61. Re:Proof at last! by sg_oneill · · Score: 1

      My buggy old ASUS laptop and thier attrocious repair policies for australian customers (3 months to get a replacement laptop?!) was what pushed my over the edge to switch to the mac in the first place. The thing was a high specced low build quality piece of plastic junk.

      Well that and vista.

      --
      Excuse the Unicode crap in my posts. That's an apostrophe, and slashdot is busted.
    62. Re:Proof at last! by MikeBabcock · · Score: 1

      That website is almost as stupid sounding as your post.

      I don't waste good time typing things to people who sound stupid, but I'm going to do everyone a favour who reads your post and thinks it makes sense:

      http://broadcast.oreilly.com/2012/05/linux-hardware-support-myths-a.html

      Result one of many for the query: https://www.google.ca/search?q=linux+supports+more+out+of+the+box+hardware+than+windows

      Interestingly, my own post above is result #2 for me.

      Your comment about Torvalds makes no sense; he hasn't had a lick of anything to do with drivers in a very long time, but if you knew anything about day to day maintenance of the kernel, you'd know that already. And your DVD isn't worth a cent to your argument and makes my point for me -- you're accustomed to installing Windows drivers I said, so you don't care I said, and you admitted it. Thanks for that.

      On Linux, put in a LiveCD and go. Period. Almost every damn time, on hardware over ten years old to brand new.

      Thought puzzle: if you were right, the LTSP wouldn't exist.

      --
      - Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
    63. Re:Proof at last! by MikeBabcock · · Score: 1

      When's the last time you ever had to install a chipset driver on Linux? I've had to install Intel/NVidia/etc. chipset drivers on Windows over a hundred times in my twenty years of professional computer support, but YMMV. Intel and AMD support Linux before Microsoft most times, for good reason too. Intel is one of the world's largest Linux users. Network cards? Same story. You might have had to do drivers for a webcam, I'd believe that, or optimal NVidia installs for 3D. But that's true on both platforms. USB printers? Those have worked for me on every random plug-in on Linux for years now, but not on Windows without a CD or a download.

      Sure, its all circumstantial. I may use completely different hardware than you do. YMMV.

      --
      - Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
    64. Re:Proof at last! by MikeBabcock · · Score: 1

      That's great. I've installed XP on dozens of machines that required no drivers either; they were designed to run it.

      That doesn't change the facts as stated though.

      --
      - Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
    65. Re:Proof at last! by MikeBabcock · · Score: 1

      Nope, never claimed it did. I was making a counter-argument; read the parent to my post, then mine. Mine is an attempt to invalidate theirs, that's all.

      If you claim you need to track down rare drivers for Linux to work on a machine, you're either using really obscure (including incredibly new) hardware or lying.

      --
      - Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
    66. Re:Proof at last! by Sir_Sri · · Score: 1

      My experience then, for comparison sake.

      MOBO chipsets: no problem on either these days. Going back to when nvidia made motherboards doesn't really count (The linux guys always had a pissing contest with nVIDIA over whether their onboard raid controller counted as raid and so that NEVER behaved nicely, I haven't tried with an intel one). Marvell SATA Controllers, for them to work properly (insofar as that could be considered possible), had to download in both cases. and then they still suck so it was a wasted effort.

      USB 3.0 cards: For them to work at all, no special downloads, for them to have full speed usb 3.0 needed to download on both. USB ports on monitors/keyboards etc. it's all over the place, mice with special buttons, same thing.

      nVIDIA cards, for full features, needed to download something for both.

      Sound drivers (onboard realtek) to get latest drivers, needed to download for both, (both linux and windows support it working out of the box, neither of them seemed to find the latest drivers).

      USB printers: Connect and print on both, but Linux by default sometimes gets confused and tries to print 4 pages per page, or with other nonsense problems with margins etc. Windows doesn't have that problem, but I don't get working monitoring or scanning necessarily.

      And that's kinda my point. If even for 1 or 2 devices on your machine you have to figure out how to navigate realteks website, then you need that skill, at which point out of the box support for things that are easy to find doesn't get you much. MS's thing with windows 7 seems to be that it will download the drivers from the windows update website (in the same way linux automatically grabs from repositories). That's a good idea in both cases, but it becomes like having a calculator when doing your taxes, sure it makes the easy part easier, but you still need the skills to figure out the hard part.

      Less so these days, but I've had a lot of issues with particular video card models on linux and not had the same issue on windows, I think it's a matter of someone being lazy and not pushing up a supported device ID to linux, but whatever it is, it's a nuisance.

    67. Re:Proof at last! by Cute+Fuzzy+Bunny · · Score: 1

      So put win7 on a retina mackbook and tell me how many drivers you lack... if you even get that far. Not an apple fan or microsoft, though I can program for both. Kubuntu for 6-7 years now, and it just works... on comodity hardware.

      Actually win7 goes on a retina macbook with ease and no additional drivers needed.

      I see you're under the mistaken impression that macbooks aren't made from commodity hardware. Nothing in that slab that isn't in 100 other models. Once you brush aside the faery dust that is.

    68. Re:Proof at last! by Cute+Fuzzy+Bunny · · Score: 1

      FYI, if you're on Precise Pangolin (Ubuntu 12.04), hit the Unity button and type "Drivers". Click on Additional Drivers.

      Why how completely intuitive. How could I have missed that one?

      Funny listening to the different opinions about installation and driver issues. Tell you why, with a car analogy.

      About ten years ago I gave up on shoddy american cars and started buying japanese cars. Wonderful. I have three of them for over 8 years, not one has needed anything other than filters and oil changes. Big change from 12 warranty trips to the dealer to get this and that fixed. So one of my friends asserts "Well, I've had chrysler products for the last two decades and nothing ever goes wrong with those either!". Well, as it turns out he felt that making all of those warranty trips was just part of owning any car and that was 'normal'.

      So I suspect that you linux adherents do all sorts of things that seem 'ordinary and reasonable' to install an OS. You've done it and you know to push the unity button and type something in or bring up the hardware drivers applet under system/administration/hardware drivers. I'd have no idea to do that or to look there.

      But seriously folks, I've installed ubuntu on quite a few machines. Its sort of my default 'well, this machine isnt working, let me boot it up on ubuntu and see if its the operating system or the hardware, first thing'. Not once has it ever fully installed everything ootb. And the resolution was never simple.

      Only machine I've installed windows on that required a driver disk was a ~2004 dell laptop with a core duo in it and windows media center edition 2005. Haven't really needed a driver disk of any kind with win7 in years. If it isn't on the cd, its on windows update or some helpful system message pops up with a link on where to get it.

      Stick your head in the sand all you want. Linux is still an operating system by technical people, for technical people and it doesn't have the polish of an OS like windows and osx. It cant. Its 'owned' by too many people that make critical decisions based on non business driven matters. And it always has been. Its not like I keep up with this stuff on a daily basis, but haven't they ripped out the primary gui at least twice in the last 3 years in exchange for something else, most recently because keeping the old one meant the OS wouldn't fit on a cd? Now if almost everyone had one of those 'dvd' drives in their computer, then this wouldn't be a problem. Oh wait? We do?!?

    69. Re:Proof at last! by Compaqt · · Score: 1

      There are definitely problems with Linux. As with anything, you should constantly strive to improve it.

      I mistakenly said to use the Unity button.

      In fact, Drivers is also where you'd expect it to be: System Settings, which is on the launcher bar by default. I've never needed to access it (because my system uses Intel graphics, which have an open source driver).

      If you had Nvidia graphics, you can install the proprietary driver through System Settings (I think it prompts you by itself--"Additional drivers available for install").

      Not that the opensource driver is bad if you're just viewing webpages and movies.

      --
      I'm not a lawyer, but I play one on the Internet. Blog
    70. Re:Proof at last! by ooshna · · Score: 1

      Windows found the built in LAN drivers for both my current and previous mobo and my usb wireless N adapter. Sorry about your luck.

    71. Re:Proof at last! by ooshna · · Score: 1

      Yeah. Except you need to unplug the USB device you booted the installer from, put it in again, cancel the installation and start over for Windows to find the installation files. On any Linux system I tried to install, everything just worked. No need to go on the internet to figure out how to get past the next screen.

      WTF are you talking about. I've installed Windows 7 from a CD-Rom and flash drive with no problems.

    72. Re:Proof at last! by tqk · · Score: 1

      I just spent a weekend trying distro after distro trying to find one that even detected the internal wifi in an Inspiron 1525.

      I had the exact same problem (Inspiron 1525). I used ndiswrapper with windows drivers to get it working. Ended up just buying an atheros card and using it instead of the broadcom one.

      Happily, there's no Win* on this box, so no ndiswrapper, sadly. However, I'm closin' in. Xubuntu install/LiveCD detects and connects fine. Once installed, no. Sigh.

      Once I connect it wired to a router tomorrow and DL the proprietary driver, it should be golden.

      Why's WiFi there when running from LiveCD (after clicking on enable interface), but not on install? Lawyers? Pthoo!

      I'd really prefer this stuff wouldn't need knowledgable geeks to figure this !@#$ out. I'd prefer my elementary school teacher sister could do it, even if that puts me out of business.

      Still, if I can make it work, good enough for me. :-) Thanks devs!

      --
      "Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit ..." -- Pink Floyd.
    73. Re:Proof at last! by Anpheus · · Score: 1

      You mean such as an off the shelf ultrabook? :D

      Linux hardware support has traditionally lagged behind. It's not something that's the "fault" of open source, the Linux Foundation or anyone or anything else, though.

    74. Re:Proof at last! by Karlt1 · · Score: 1

      Really? You can build a laptop from parts? You know laptops have been outselling desktops for a half decade.

    75. Re:Proof at last! by Karlt1 · · Score: 1

      Really? There are 100s of laptops that have a 2840x 2160 resolution?

    76. Re:Proof at last! by tqk · · Score: 1

      That's cos Ubuntu is crap. Seriously.

      Flamebait. :-P It is not. I prefer Debian on my machines, but I don't buy machines with weird, exotic crap in them. This 1525 is one my stepdad found in an alley. You work with what you've got.

      I like it that the *buntu ecosystem exists. I've had great results from Xubuntu and LinuxMint, and lots of people welcome Kubuntu. I seldom have trouble with them and they've been helpful many times.

      You sound like one of those haters that's offended by Ubuntu's latest desktop choice. Well install what you want and use that instead. This isn't Win* or Mac, FFS.

      FWIW, after using a CAT-5 to the router and dl-ing the drive/firmware/whatever, wifi works fine. Mom and step-dad have a kitchen table edutainment box for the price of a secondhand replacement HD (and a bit of my time).

      --
      "Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit ..." -- Pink Floyd.
    77. Re:Proof at last! by Cute+Fuzzy+Bunny · · Score: 1

      Really? There are 100s of laptops that have a 2840x 2160 resolution?

      Yes, you're right. Different screen resolutions must be a major impediment to installing an operating system, since there are already only 50,000 of them.

      Fanboys never cease to amaze me with what they think is critical.

      I'm wringing my brain trying to remember anything that happened to me in the last 30 years where the resolution of the screen had much of anything to do with being able to get an operating system loaded.

      I have an acer laptop from a few years ago. Runs current OSX just fine, as it has 100% of the exact same components that were in the macbook pro at the time, although curiously it also had a higher screen resolution than the macbook. The only difference was the manufacturer of screen and the case it was in. Price difference? About $1500.

      When I've disassembled macs and macbooks, I'm usually surprised at how pedestrian the components are. I remember my first imac teardown...5400 rpm western digital drive, software modem instead of a hardware one (when that really mattered and many PC modems were hardware versions), kingston value ram...I thought I'd find a fancy disk drive, expensive ram and a nice hardware modem. Left me wondering why I paid $999 for it when a $500 windows machine had better parts in it.

      I've also been able to hackintosh 100% of the machines I've attempted it on, without much difficulty. Occasionally a missing driver for network or video card, resolved with an inexpensive swap for another inexpensive component. All of them cheap home builts or super el cheapo laptops.

      I figure people will be less willing to pay two grand for a commodity hardware platform now that the neophytes that buy them are aware that they really aren't 'virus proof' like Apple suggested for many years...or until someone puts that retina display laptop next to a 1200p one and realizes that they can't really tell the difference...at least not until the display hits about 40". That'll be some big laptop.

    78. Re:Proof at last! by nick_urbanik · · Score: 1

      Speaking of that, what Linux person would buy an Apple product?!

      I dunno, some twit called tourvulds or summit.

    79. Re:Proof at last! by pantherace · · Score: 1

      Yes. I can. Or could until Asus closed their estore which had just about everything required except processors and ram.

      Assembling laptops isn't hard. What is a pain in the ass is rebuilding phones from parts.

    80. Re:Proof at last! by Richy_T · · Score: 1

      Not always the case these days, unfortunately. Now, on many installations, a minimal driver set is stored in a compressed disk which is loaded into memory before the main root partition is mounted. If your driver isn't in that compressed disk, things start getting interesting.

    81. Re:Proof at last! by cavreader · · Score: 1

      You can schedule updates anytime you want. For instance you can schedule the updates to occur at 3AM instead of running them manually in the middle of the day.

  2. Linux on Mac?! by m1ndcrash · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Why in the world would you even try to do it? What is the goal of this endeavour?

    1. Re:Linux on Mac?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

      Look, sometimes you just want to stick a Chevy four-banger in your Ferrari. It's not rational, it's just linux.

    2. Re:Linux on Mac?! by erp_consultant · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Actually I installed a dual boot of OSX and Ubuntu on my later model iMac. Not only does Ubuntu run flawlessly it's really fast. I was surprised to see that everything worked right out of the box, including the webcam, sound and wifi. Sometimes I have to test my software on a native Linux distribution so it helps to have the dual boot option. Sure I could run it in a VM but this is a bit more of a pure solution.

    3. Re:Linux on Mac?! by m1ndcrash · · Score: 1

      As in "run linux on all the things?"

    4. Re:Linux on Mac?! by Safety+Cap · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Because Mountain Lion isn't THAT much of an upgrade over Lion, and whatever comes after (HouseCat?) will probably be more IOS-like—i.e., sucky on a laptop.

      Until/unless Apple de-fscks itself, the upgrade path will be via Linux on Mac.

      --
      Yeah, right.
    5. Re:Linux on Mac?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      If that's your purpose, you could also get a proper laptop instead, like one that actually has a middle mouse button such as the Thinkpads.

    6. Re:Linux on Mac?! by cod3r_ · · Score: 3, Insightful

      1 person trying it.. 1 person working on it.. 1 person reporting it. Many people reading about it and scratching their heads.

    7. Re:Linux on Mac?! by ackthpt · · Score: 2

      Why in the world would you even try to do it? What is the goal of this endeavour?

      It's a game .. seeing how many pieces of hardware we can run Linux on. There's always the question, is it the suitability of the OS or the hardware which is the chief difficulty. I'd say with problems prying into how the Mac is made and what tricks you have to overcome, it's not a particularly good choice (particularly as there may be small deviations during the production, which you won't know about, until you trip on them.)

      --

      A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
    8. Re:Linux on Mac?! by tgd · · Score: 2

      Oh damn it. What's the odds I posted nearly the identical example?

      At least I was man enought to take the Karma hit!

    9. Re:Linux on Mac?! by h4rr4r · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I do it with a macbook air.

      The hardware is nice, but OSX is terrible.

    10. Re:Linux on Mac?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Name one other laptop that has a screen with that high a resolution. They don't currently exist.

    11. Re:Linux on Mac?! by amicusNYCL · · Score: 4, Funny

      Just think how much more smug you are when you're running free software on over-priced hardware. It's a smug upgrade!

      --
      "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
    12. Re:Linux on Mac?! by dimeglio · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure that real world is everyone else's real world.

      --
      Views expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the author.
    13. Re:Linux on Mac?! by jbolden · · Score: 1

      There is a lot of good server software for Linux that isn't ported to OSX. Mostly I'd assume you would want to run this in stuff in a VM, to use while developing.

      OTOH if you are just talking hardware. Where else do you get a laptop with:
      a 5 mega pixel screen
      450 mb/sec hard drives
      16g of ram
      terrific speakers
      that wonderful thin feel ...

    14. Re:Linux on Mac?! by Anne+Thwacks · · Score: 2, Insightful
      This is true. I have sent a great number of emails to Lenovo complaining that they no longer produce a laptop worth buying because the screen resolutions of the new ones are not as good as the old ones.

      Their response is to send me emails of models with even worse resolution!

      --
      Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
    15. Re:Linux on Mac?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      > prices are surprisingly competitive these days

      As long as you compare one apple product to another, they are!!

    16. Re:Linux on Mac?! by hobarrera · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Why not? It's the only notebook with a display capable of 2,880×1,800, so if you want a notebook with a resolution higher than 1080p, its your only choice.

      The hardware specs of a Macbook Pro "Retina" are quite unique, so there's plenty of other reasons you'd want this particular model just for hardware.

      Where I live, a Macbook Air is the only choice for something similar to an "ultrabook". Everything else weighs twice as much, and includes crap I don't want, like huge HDDs or optical drives. So even if I dislike Apple's software, their hardware is really the only choice for me.

    17. Re:Linux on Mac?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

            nice screen without being subjected to OSX?

    18. Re:Linux on Mac?! by TrancePhreak · · Score: 1

      I find software that relies on X11 on the Mac to be horrible. Another problem that has come up is that OSS does not move as quickly as OSX, so there is some software that will only work in 10.6 environments, or you can run it in Linux.

      --

      -]Phreak Out[-
    19. Re:Linux on Mac?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Say what you will about Apple, they are the trend setters. Think about the ultralight laptops, tablets, etc. Other vendors chase them. So you might just get your Lenovo with a nicer display now that Apple fielded these.

    20. Re:Linux on Mac?! by thetoadwarrior · · Score: 1

      Because whether you want to believe it or not, it's good hardware. More importantly with this particular version it has a screen you can't get elsewhere.

      But that is also why it's destined for failure. He's trying to install an OS that does sometimes lag behind others on hardware support on a system featuring various hardware that's not really used anywhere else for the time being. I don't blame him but it wasn't ever going to go well.

    21. Re:Linux on Mac?! by JDG1980 · · Score: 1

      Why in the world would you even try to do it? What is the goal of this endeavour?

      Because the Retina MacBook Pro is a damn good laptop? I can't think of any other laptop that provides an equivalent display quality. And apart from the display, it's just generally well-built all around, both aesthetically and functionally. So if someone is really into Linux on the desktop, I can see why they'd want to try it on one of these systems. I can't stand MacOS X but if I had an unlimited budget, I'd seriously consider getting a Retina MacBook Pro and putting Windows 7 on it.

    22. Re:Linux on Mac?! by Issarlk · · Score: 1

      Surprisingly competitive ... I see that the reality distortion field survived Steve Jobs.

    23. Re:Linux on Mac?! by cpu6502 · · Score: 2

      Because the bastards won't let me upgrade my hardware to OS 10.8 ("too old" they claim). Well maybe Apple is into planned obsolescene of good hardware, but Microsoft and Linux aren't. I have not done it yet but could install either of these OSes since Apple no longer thinks I'm worthy of support. (And yes this is another reason Apple is a "luxury" brand like Lexus or Acura.... high initial cost, plus short OS lifespan == high cost of ownership).

      --
      My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
    24. Re:Linux on Mac?! by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      I run windows on (non-retina) MBP for the same reason. It'd run linux, except that I have no need to: Linux runs on my two (atom) servers, and one of the windows always open is a VNC session to one of those.

    25. Re:Linux on Mac?! by bhtooefr · · Score: 2

      It's not your only choice, it's just your only choice that's currently available.

      Plenty of 1920x1200 options if you go back to Core 2, a few at Nehalem, and a couple at Sandy Bridge. (Some of those in the Core 2 and Nehalem days are even 15".)

      Also, if you go back to Core 2, and don't mind some frankensteining, you can get an IDTech IAQX10, IAQX10N, or IAQX10S panel, a ThinkPad T60 or T60p, and a T61p 14.1" 4:3 motherboard, heatsink, Socket P CPU, and PCMCIA slot assembly, and put them all together. Need to reflash the panel's EDID ROM, and file some stuff away from the chassis, but the end result is up to the following:

      2048x1536 IPS display
      2.6 GHz Core 2 Duo Penryn
      Quadro FX 570M (but crippled, and 128 MiB VRAM only)
      8 GiB RAM
      Whatever SSD you want, but IIRC it's constrained to SATA 2 speeds (maybe SATA 1, actually)

      With less frankensteining, you can run the T60p board, and get up to the following:

      2.33 GHz Core 2 Duo Merom
      FireGL V5250
      3 GiB RAM
      Whatever SSD you want at SATA 1 speeds

      And, with zero frankensteining, you can find an ultra-rare config of the ThinkPad R50p, which means up to (I think):

      1.7 GHz Pentium M
      Radeon 9200 or so IIRC
      I think 2 GiB RAM?
      Whatever PATA SSD you can find

      The T61p/T60p frankenstein is what I ran before getting a MacBook Pro Retina, I'm a bit of a pixel whore.

    26. Re:Linux on Mac?! by AragornSonOfArathorn · · Score: 1

      Why in the world would you even try to do it? What is the goal of this endeavour?

      Some men just want to watch the world burn.

      --
      sudo eat my shorts
    27. Re:Linux on Mac?! by JDG1980 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Just think how much more smug you are when you're running free software on over-priced hardware

      I would be very interested to know where I can get a laptop with a 2880x1800 display panel for cheaper than Apple is charging. I am not aware of any others. It's a judgment call whether this is worth the money, as it is definitely a premium-priced product, but you are paying for actual hardware specs, not just snob appeal.

    28. Re:Linux on Mac?! by PopeRatzo · · Score: 4, Funny

      The hardware is nice, but OSX is terrible.

      Oh boy, you did it now.

      If I don't see you in a few days, I'll send a search party out to look for your karma.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    29. Re:Linux on Mac?! by Greyfox · · Score: 1

      I mostly do it to see the expression on the faces of the hipsters in the coffee shop when they see my text-mode bootup. It's priceless...

      --

      I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?

    30. Re:Linux on Mac?! by h4rr4r · · Score: 2, Informative

      I don't care.

      OSX screws up just too much. The whole interface is dumbed way down, it is not configurable to any real degree and it is missing lots of normal features. One of the first that springs to mind is having one wallpaper across more than one monitor. Instead I have to cut the image up into two then place one on each screen.

    31. Re:Linux on Mac?! by Lord+Lode · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The interesting thing is, this is the first time Apple sets a trend that I (who is not your average consumer) actually want: high resolution screens.

    32. Re:Linux on Mac?! by h4rr4r · · Score: 5, Interesting

      If you like having middle click copy past, functional number pad in vim, or focus follows mouse OSX is not the right choice.

      I tried to use it, I paid for software to enable focus follows mouse. I tried to find a decent terminal app, I tried to find replacements for all I needed. OSX is just really meant to be for one kind fo user and that is not me.

    33. Re:Linux on Mac?! by MozeeToby · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You must be too young to remember the days before the HDTV market killed hi-res displays. On laptops especially, the extra screen real-estate is awesome since going multi-head isn't an option. And I would personally much rather have a single 27" 4k monitor, than a 4x20" multi-head setup.

    34. Re:Linux on Mac?! by h4rr4r · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Why use vnc? Why not just tunnel X over SSH?
      Or just use ssh the normal way.

    35. Re:Linux on Mac?! by aztracker1 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      For me the largest frustration, is the number of applications *only* available via the MacStore, and how cumbersome the MacStore is itself. Not to mention, the default setting for 10.8 (Mountain Lion) was to only allow app installs from "known" developers on the MacStore. The first few apps I installed were non-mac-store apps, and the new sandbox doesn't work for many developer oriented apps. One of the reasons I went mac for a laptop was relatively seamless software options, and it's less so imho now than before. Homebrew/MacPorts goes a long way, but just the same, at this point would nearly rather be on Mint/Debian/Ubuntu. If the next OSX release is *any* worse, I'm definitely going Linux.

      --
      Michael J. Ryan - tracker1.info
    36. Re:Linux on Mac?! by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 1

      I get the same look from people when they see me running fvwm 1.x as my 'desktop'.

      "where's your menubar? trashcan? start button? icon box?"

      heh.

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    37. Re:Linux on Mac?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Why would anyone want a 2880x1800 display for a 13" or even a 15" laptop? Does it come with a magnifying glass? I bought a brand new HP laptop 2 months ago and love it. It has a 1080P 15" display and I would have to squint to see if the display were smaller (or res higher). Furthermore, MY laptop comes with 2GB of video RAM. What good is a 2880x1800 display with only 1GB of graphics memory?

    38. Re:Linux on Mac?! by aztracker1 · · Score: 1

      When I bought my MBP, it was the best option available in terms of hardware.. (that and I appreciate the aluminum case over plastic) It isn't always the case, and my ram/ssd were purchased separately (because of pricing).

      --
      Michael J. Ryan - tracker1.info
    39. Re:Linux on Mac?! by jedidiah · · Score: 2

      Linux is fine as a "normal desktop OS". The problem here is redefining "normal desktop" to mean grandmas that really should just get an iPad. A GUI does not negate the possibility of power users. There are plenty of GUI power users and they tend to get annoyed but Apple's allegedly superior product.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    40. Re:Linux on Mac?! by dcherryholmes · · Score: 1

      The kicker for me in moving from Linux to Mac (macbooks are what work issues us) is the lack of an option to pin a window to the foreground. There's a 3rd party tool called Stay Afloat, IIRC, that sort of does it, but it works with some programs but not others, i.e. sub-par.

    41. Re:Linux on Mac?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Why in the world would you even try to do it? What is the goal of this endeavour?

      What kind of F-ing question is that???

      Uh, some people *like* Linux you insensitive clod! (Seriously, you are an insensitive (and arrogant apple loving) clod)

    42. Re:Linux on Mac?! by jedidiah · · Score: 2

      Windows is only the standard for a secretary's terminal and games.

      Beyond that, you need something a little more serious than Windows.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    43. Re:Linux on Mac?! by h4rr4r · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Lots of software is actually not available, what is I have to compile myself.

      OSX has more pay for software, far less FREE software. I mostly use FREE software.

      OSX was commercial UNIX, it is not now. Not that it being commercial UNIX is something I care about.

      Here are my major issues:

      Lack of configurability.

      Lack of Focus Follows Mouse. Zoom2 fixes that mostly.

      Lack of middle click paste.

      Breaks numpad for vim.

      All the command line flags are BSD style instead of the GNU way I know and love.

      Bad multimonitor support. Does not use one wallpaper nor do the menu bars appear on both monitors.

      Print screen does not work, instead you get some sort of 4 key combo. That sure is intuitive!

      The OS comes with nothing, windows does this too. I would much rather have a compiler and tools installed out of the box that itunes. Would take up less space too.

      Asking anything on an OSX forum gets you "Why would do try to do that? It is not the one true way THE JOBS has given us!"

      The biggest issue is really the lack of configuration options. Most of this stuff should be a checkbox but is not.

    44. Re:Linux on Mac?! by Relayman · · Score: 1

      Windows is the de-facto standard for serious software development...

      So people developing for iPhone or iPad aren't serious developers. I'm sure they would be surprised to hear that.

      --
      If I used a sig over again, would anyone notice?
    45. Re:Linux on Mac?! by rexkbh2100 · · Score: 2

      You DO IT with a macbook air? Which port do you use? Hopefully not firewire...any sort of transfer would be over too quickly! Then again it's not the size of the file that counts, but whether the bits get corrupted... Or do you just negotiate protocols wirelessly? "The hardware is nice, but OSX is terrible." Well that's just typical, only interested in the body, NO consideration for the person! :) Sorry can't help it

    46. Re:Linux on Mac?! by geekmux · · Score: 2

      Why in the world would you even try to do it? What is the goal of this endeavour?

      If you came here asking a question like that, you MUST be new here...

      If we didn't approach most endeavors in the *NIX world with a "why not, let's see what happens" attitude, there probably wouldn't be a single *NIX box running a GUI yet.

    47. Re:Linux on Mac?! by Gilmoure · · Score: 1

      What about NetBSD?

      --
      I drank what? -- Socrates
    48. Re:Linux on Mac?! by Kjella · · Score: 2

      Well, it does sound more productive than making Linux run on your toaster...

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    49. Re:Linux on Mac?! by ratbag · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You've got the world waiting to hear about how "OSX screws up just too much" and the first thing that you choose to share is that you can't have the same wallpaper spread between two monitors. I don't normally like snarkiness but it must really be tough being you, what with the massive annoyances you have to deal with. Sheesh.

      Still, it's your choice to jettison the reliability, consistency, elegance, support and put Linux on the machine because you can't spread wallpaper across monitors. Meanwhile some of the rest of us have applications or content on screen and tend not to bother with wallpaper.

      Like I say, I'm not normally a fan of snarkiness, but today's been a real doozy of a day for idiotic comments, from people accepting the "UK threatens to storm the Ecuador embassy" line from Ecuador, through to people complaining about a change of connector (in a story from the frikking Daily Mail of all places), through to a piece about how Linux doesn't run well on a machine specifically designed to run a different OS.

    50. Re:Linux on Mac?! by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      You miss the part about the dumb down interface?

      By screws up, I meant the defaults suck and you are often stuck with them. That is screwing up OS design.

    51. Re:Linux on Mac?! by uniquename72 · · Score: 1

      Why in the world would you even try to do it? What is the goal of this endeavour?

      Must every thread about using a Mac for anything not explicitly approved by Jobs include someone saying, "Why would you do that?"

      (Also, "To see if I could" is actually a very good, valid, and accepted answer to nearly any such question. Alternative answers include, "Why wouldn't you?" and "Who gives a fuck why?")

    52. Re:Linux on Mac?! by jedidiah · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Jettison support? I run Linux on Macs because Linux has had better driver support for things like capture cards and 3rd party remotes and more complete support for things like video acceleration.

      This MBP is one of the few exception when it comes to "support"

      Apple reliability is overrated. So is Apple consistency.

      "Elegance" is just subjective nonsense.

      The problem with Apple is that things quickly go bad when you use it any manner remotely creative. It has an even worse group think than Windows. With Macs you will get shouted down for trying things that seem mundane on Linux or Windows.

      apt-get is a killer feature and blows Apple variants out of the water when it comes to "elegance".

      The main advantage of Macs is that you can "buy stuff" for it and Windows has a much bigger advantage in that regard.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    53. Re:Linux on Mac?! by mclaincausey · · Score: 1

      I know this is tu quoque, but Windows 7 is far worse on that front. You can only have ONE wallpaper and it duplicates on each monitor even if they are different resolutions. And simple image files don't preview in Explorer. It's 2012. WTF. OS X has some great hidden tricks if you learn a few keyboard shortcuts, but Finder is the biggest issue. So I use PathFinder (http://cocoatech.com/pathfinder/), which is awesome.

      --
      (%i1) factor(777353);
      (%o1) 777353
    54. Re:Linux on Mac?! by Hatta · · Score: 1

      They never gave a toss before, and Linux still ran on MBPs.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    55. Re:Linux on Mac?! by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 2

      Is it? I've no love lost for Apple, but there are many little things they've done right, some of which were widely copied. Large "glass" laptop touchpads are one example
      (granted, Trackpoint is still superior in general).

    56. Re:Linux on Mac?! by mclaincausey · · Score: 1

      Sloppy focus doesn't even make sense in the MacOS metaphor where the active window's toolbar is always at the top of the screen (IMO).

      --
      (%i1) factor(777353);
      (%o1) 777353
    57. Re:Linux on Mac?! by retchdog · · Score: 1

      x over ssh sucks. i don't care if it's more elegant in principle; the latency is horrible. vnc at least runs in real time.

      --
      "They were pure niggers." – Noam Chomsky
    58. Re:Linux on Mac?! by TheSpoom · · Score: 1

      Developer here, posting from an aluminum iMac running Debian. Tried OS X for about a month, didn't like it. Too... fidgety.

      Everything's running fine, by the way, including an external monitor.

      --
      It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
      - E. Debs
    59. Re:Linux on Mac?! by X0563511 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Lets be clear (pun intended): higher DPI screens. Resolution is only half the battle. What good is 1680x1050 if it's on a 30' screen? Much better on a 15" I'd say.

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    60. Re:Linux on Mac?! by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      Mybe he has a program he needs to run that won't run on Apple's OS? I'm really not very familiar with apple, do they have a music player that will fetch and display lyrics from the internet as the song plays? Amarok does, and afaik it only runs on Linux. Of course, Apple is now UNIX based, will Linux binaries runnatively on an Apple? Even if so, I'd rather get my programs from the distro's repository; little or no chance of being trojaned no matter what your OS.

    61. Re:Linux on Mac?! by RocketRabbit · · Score: 1

      It was a wise decision to post this AC. Very, very wise. Otherwise you'd be looking at poopy pants for eternity.

    62. Re:Linux on Mac?! by XxtraLarGe · · Score: 2

      Because Mountain Lion isn't THAT much of an upgrade over Lion, and whatever comes after (HouseCat?) will probably be more IOS-like--i.e., sucky on a laptop.

      I don't see Liger anywhere on that comic.

      --
      Taking guns away from the 99% gives the 1% 100% of the power.
    63. Re:Linux on Mac?! by unixisc · · Score: 1

      Despite all the responses above, I agree w/ you - I don't get the point. First of all, one could get great or comparable laptops for a lot less, and install Linux or PC-BSD on them. Aside from that, OS-X userland is FreeBSD, so it's not like there is anything one is missing - except X11. The server software issue - if one is setting up a server, a Mac is a pretty overpriced box to use in that manner. Then if it's a case of an old Mac that's still perfectly usable, why not look into doing something like an upgrade of the FreeBSD parts of the OS (I'm guessing that not much has changed on the XNU part of it)

      In short, if people hate OS-X, why buy a Mac in the first place? Buy a Dell, or HP, or Lenovo, or even a no-name brand. Use the cash, if one must, to rev up the specs on everything, and then load it up w/ one's favorite distro. And then be off to the races.

    64. Re:Linux on Mac?! by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

      If VNC does not cripple your use of Linux, you are not using Linux beyond "let's see how this terrible system looks" level.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    65. Re:Linux on Mac?! by RocketRabbit · · Score: 2

      You didn't want to take advantage of the other trends they set? Like longer battery life and thinner, lighter computers? Like nice trackpads?

    66. Re:Linux on Mac?! by Alex+Belits · · Score: 3, Informative

      Over fast connections X over ssh is faster than VNC. On the other, hand VNC is (barely, and not for any practical purposes) usable on connections that are so slow, X can't work over them without minutes of redraw delays.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    67. Re:Linux on Mac?! by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      I was assuming you had a fast link to the servers.

      Over the LAN X over ssh is going to be faster than VNC.

    68. Re:Linux on Mac?! by aussersterne · · Score: 2

      This is not to suggest that you *ought* to do this (time is valuable, particularly for working professionals), but it is possible to get much of the free software and even the GNU command line environment for Mac OS. I do it via MacPorts though I know there are other alternatives as well.

      When I was contemplating the switch from Linux it took me about two months to become convinced that I could be satisfied with it. Most important factors were some critical free software standards, a GNU environment, a decent terminal, and better focus and window management.

      I settled on iTerm which is actually a damn fine terminal for my purposes, better than either the GNOME or KDE offerings for my day-to-day use, but it took me a while to find it, and I didn't like any of the alternatives.

      MacPorts brought the GNU environment and utilities, applications like ImageMagick and graphical Emacs (which I used extensively in Linux but has actually fallen by the wayside in my Mac use, supplanted by Sublime Text) and a number of other standards.

      The focus and window management issues were solved with apps, as you point out (Divvy deserves a special mention here as an app with great configurability but without making it unmanageable).

      Appearance configurability (things like the dock and icons) were a bugaboo at first but it turns out that many applications store their graphics as PNG files and you can just drop replacements in. Not ideal, but not much different from what I always ended up doing in Linux, with the benefit that I've only had to do it once in most cases, as opposed to having to do it with every application or desktop element point release in Linux, and the file names and positions seem not to be subject to so much churn on the Mac.

      The multimonitor support I agree with—I don't like the way it's done. On the other hand, it is *predictable* and stable within the bounds of what can be done, which never happened to me on Linux (not only did I invariably find myself getting into the guts and scripting it myself in a kludgy way, but once again every other point release would leave me with a mess that I'd have to clean up at the console because graphics would fail to start because my script had been rendered incompatible in some way).

      The development environment is a valid gripe but a small one. XCode is easy enough to get ahold of, and gcc is also there with minimal fuss.

      My experience of switching has been that once the initial two-month learning curve was over:

      (1) All of my existing scripts worked
      (2) My development environment was surprisingly easy to bootstrap
      (3) The command line feels just like my old Linux command line did
      (4) There are a few niggles in the UI that I don't like, but they're not major
      (5) My desktop is sufficiently visually and workflow customized for my needs and has remained so without effort
      (6) I spent little to no time now on system administration for my own system (compared with 20% of my work time in Linux, with unpredictable breakages)

      One thing that I still haven't mastered:

      Mac cursor movement by keyboard with the same level of proficiency I had in Linux/Windows. But, against the tradeoff of that 20% I think I'm still far more productive and feel (frustratedly) interrupted by my system much less.

      --
      STOP . AMERICA . NOW
    69. Re:Linux on Mac?! by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

      Most of them are not, but this has nothing to do with Windows.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    70. Re:Linux on Mac?! by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

      New Linux distro to play with? Another VM, and I still have OSX as my main do everything OS.

      Another poser who does not actually use Linux.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    71. Re:Linux on Mac?! by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      And yet it works fine with Zoom/2.

      So I will say it makes sense fine.

    72. Re:Linux on Mac?! by MikShapi · · Score: 1

      I concur on this. I've now used two generations of macbook air 11''s and one thing anyone who uses a mac to do real work knows is that the days of needing to "pick an OS" (e.g. "Use Windows" or "Use Linux" or "Use OSX") are as outdated as a debian release from the pre-last decade.

      In 2012, anyone worth his geek license uses ALL os's. At the same time.
      I use OSX as core OS. I run two simultaneous VM's - one with Win7 and MSOffice, one with RHEL to work.
      There are two commercial desktop virtualisation products that offer not a mere hypervisor, but two driver stacks that drill into both host and guest OS's, and make guest applications/windows behave as if they were native ones on the host.
      They're VMWare fusion and Parallels. I use the latter.

      Before you jump, with any decent modern computer (read: decent core CPU, none of that atom shit), there is no noticeable lag when you do this. You can't tell the difference between Visio running on a native win7 via bootcamp and one running in a tucked-out-of-sight parallels VM. You might find a bit playing Deus Ex: Human Revolution this way, but gaming is another story.

      Why on earth would you spend 3K$ buying a retina macbook, skimp on 100$ on an integrated hypervisor, then run Linux as your base OS on it?
      If it's to tinker and because you can and all - fine. But don't whinge. It's your choice to ride the bleeding edge of driver immaturity.

      If you expect real work to get done, to me it seems like an exercise in stubbornness, epic failure at using the right tool in the right circumstance and the only point you've proven is that you're a fanboi who failed IQ test.

      --
      -
    73. Re:Linux on Mac?! by Noughmad · · Score: 2

      Actually, it does. I have a KDE desktop set up in this way:

        - I'm using a menubar widget in a panel at the top of the screen. It looks just like the top toolbar in OSX, except it's Plasma themed.
        - If the current window is not fullscreen, moving the mouse over another one does not change the focus, so I can reach the menubar.
        - If I roll the mouse wheel while doing so, the window under the mouse scrolls, not the active one.

      Basically, I get the main benefit of focus-follows-mouse (scrolling), without the side effect of changing the menubar. Note that this is KDE's default behavior (obviously I had to add the menubar widget myself), so it doesn't require any editing of config files.

      --
      PlusFive Slashdot reader for Android. Can post comments.
    74. Re:Linux on Mac?! by serviscope_minor · · Score: 2

      You've got the world waiting to hear about how "OSX screws up just too much" and the first thing that you choose to share is that you can't have the same wallpaper spread between two monitors.

      Yeah, I'm with you on that one. It's kind of a bizarre complaint, given that there's so much else wrong with OSX compared to Linux.

      Still, it's your choice to jettison the reliability, consistency, elegance, support and put Linux

      The what, what, what and what? Are you talking about the same OSX and same Linux?

      Thise are all terrible on OSX.

      Meanwhile some of the rest of us have applications or content on screen and tend not to bother with wallpaper.

      Well yes, I agree with that.

      through to a piece about how Linux doesn't run well on a machine specifically designed to run a different OS.

      lolwut? The MBP retina is pretty normal Intel hardware. The main thing unusual about it is that it's one of the first laptops with out the current latest generation of everything. Given that linux is excellent on so many platforms it is surprising that it doesn't run well.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    75. Re:Linux on Mac?! by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      I don't do anything the windows way. I do it all the X11 way.

      My IBM type M has a button labeled print screen. I expected it to work. Instead I get to press 4 buttons. How is that better?

      How about less Fanboy stuff, and just realize OSX is not for me.

    76. Re:Linux on Mac?! by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      Iterm is what I try to use but it still does not work with numpad and vim.

      I realize I am an edge case, but OSX is just not for everyone.

    77. Re:Linux on Mac?! by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      I totally agree. I am not a typical desktop user.

      I use VIM now more than ever, and can't really see not using this kind of editor. Giving up all the functionality is something I just can't see doing.

      FFM might be geekary but it works with OSX via addon apps. It could be and should be done by the OS. I tend to have a negative opinion of those who do UI design and don't see a need for flexibleness.

    78. Re:Linux on Mac?! by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

      Why in the world would you even try to do it? What is the goal of this endeavour?

      Indeed! Why load Linux when you could load FreeBSD instead?!?!

      Their port sucks and has some fruity GUI on top.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
    79. Re:Linux on Mac?! by nighthawk243 · · Score: 1

      Sometimes you can have a 2.5L Iron Duke in your Ferrari... if you put a Ferrari body kit on your Fiero.

    80. Re:Linux on Mac?! by Zan+Lynx · · Score: 1

      Except for fonts and high resolution bitmaps, yes, the screen is addressed as doubled pixels. So what? Look at your screen and how much of it is covered in text and bitmap icons. Making those things look nicer is worth it.

      The fonts on your Samsung will never look as nice as on a Retina display.

    81. Re:Linux on Mac?! by nighthawk243 · · Score: 1

      Competitive if you're used to shopping for Alienware laptops.

    82. Re:Linux on Mac?! by TheNinjaroach · · Score: 1

      It has a 1080P 15" display and I would have to squint to see if the display were smaller (or res higher).

      1080P is pretty crappy in terms of vertical resolution. I wouldn't mind having an extra ~700 pixels of vertical space.

      --
      I went to eat some animal crackers and the box said, "Do not eat if seal is broken." I opened the box and sure enough..
    83. Re:Linux on Mac?! by omnichad · · Score: 1

      I've been wanting it for years too. Don't know why nobody thought that we wouldn't want that. Maybe "the world" isn't ready, but there are a lot of us who would pay for more pixels.

    84. Re:Linux on Mac?! by amicusNYCL · · Score: 2

      A 15 inch screen simply doesn't need a resolution like that. My laptop has a larger screen than any MBP and it doesn't look any more jagged or rough than it did before the new Apple laptops came out. I mean, who prioritizes the number of pixels on their display over everything else, including the actual size of the display? Which jobs require a huge number of pixels for you to work efficiently, and is every MBP buyer who points out the resolution employed in one of those fields? No, they're not. They don't need that resolution, it doesn't serve any practical purpose for them other than bragging rights. That's called snob appeal.

      --
      "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
    85. Re:Linux on Mac?! by Electricity+Likes+Me · · Score: 1

      NX via x2go solves that problem really nicely though since it cleans up the chattiness of the X server protocol.

    86. Re:Linux on Mac?! by Zan+Lynx · · Score: 1

      Have you looked at one in person? If you haven't, what is your opinion worth?

      Personally, I think the Retina displays are amazing.

    87. Re:Linux on Mac?! by gl4ss · · Score: 1

      so that you wouldn't have to deal with 95% of apps you need to be productive to be scaled with shit algo, but could use operating systems proper dpi adjustments to make everything appear crisp and yet in a legible size.

      seriously, I was wondering before it shipped how they're going to pull it off - like if apple had gotten off it's ass and added a proper dpi/itemsize adjustment to osx - but fuck no, they didn't, I suppose osx is too bitmap oriented for that to work and apple engineering likes "omg let's just double up everything and not give an option!".

      (for the record dpi adjustment works just fine in win7 - it's essential for my use, only thing that sucks is that some applications are scaled up, essentially by pixel doubling - however on win7 you can adjust that per application).

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    88. Re:Linux on Mac?! by Teun · · Score: 1

      Duh, it's a standard option of KDE to pin a window either always to the foreground or always to the background.

      --
      "The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
    89. Re:Linux on Mac?! by serviscope_minor · · Score: 3, Insightful

      MacPorts brought the GNU environment and utilities

      Ick.

      I tried fink and I tried Macports. I've also tried real ports on both Free and Open BSD. Somehow, the OSX ones always seemed really brittle and upgrades would fail frequently. The trouble is that you would find some package that you needed, try to install it, end up in some kind of hell, rm -r the tree and then wait overnight for everything to build again.

      Basically, compared to any of tha major Linux distributions, and the ports tree on the BSDs, getting random OSS software installed on a mac is like pulling teeth.

      XCode is easy enough to get ahold of, and gcc is also there with minimal fuss.

      Some hideous, ancient and mangled version of GCC. I run a couple of OSS libraries, and the Mac support has been a bit painful at times. Not anything like as painful as Windows, to be sure, but by the standards of unixy systems, awkward.

      Also, GCC has been improving a lot lately, so being a couple ov versions behing is a hinderance.

      I spent little to no time now on system administration for my own system (compared with 20% of my work time in Linux, with unpredictable breakages

      That sounds like hyperbole to me. That's one entire day per week. Unless you're doing some weird shit, once set up, a decent Linux distro will basically run for ever or until the hard disk dies, which ever comes first. Even Arch with its crazy roling upgrades amazingly just works pretty much all the time.

      Linux is used heavily for things like servers, HPC, embedded stuff and so on where uptime is important and it can stay on for years. If you're having stuff randomly break to the point where it's taking up 20% of your time administering the thing, then you must be doing something very, very wrong.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    90. Re:Linux on Mac?! by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      FFM might be geekary but it works with OSX via addon apps. It could be and should be done by the OS. I tend to have a negative opinion of those who do UI design and don't see a need for flexibleness.

      I love FFM and I hate focus raises. If you use mostly xterms and vims, then FFM is massively superior. In all other cases, it's merely vastly superior.

      I tend to use gvim with the menu and tool bar switched off, however, since the syntax highlighting and interaction with the X11 clipboards is better and I like the scroll bar showing me where I am in a document.

      And anyway, what's the point of a permentant menu bar at the top when most clients don't even have menus :)

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    91. Re:Linux on Mac?! by SiChemist · · Score: 1

      I love X2Go. We use it at work to provide a Linux desktop for users who have Windows PCs (and some Macs). It's very fast with low latency.

    92. Re:Linux on Mac?! by Mitreya · · Score: 1

      I would be very interested to know where I can get a laptop with a 2880x1800 display panel for cheaper than Apple is charging.

      Hah! I will settle for finding a 13-14" laptop with 1600x900 resolution and even a bit competitive with mac book air's weight. The only one that I have been able to find a year ago is definitely more expensive than mac book air.

    93. Re:Linux on Mac?! by Vintermann · · Score: 1

      No, they're not. This is precisely the issue for people like Lord Lode below: other companies don't follow Apple's lead in delivering high resolution screens.

      Why? Because it doesn't make sense for them. Extreme resolutions is a lot more about prestige than utility, and you can't compete with Apple's high prestige image. More importantly, there are tradeoffs - the various iToys could have had much better battery time and better performance had Apple prioritized other things. The load another million pixels puts on your processor/GPU is really not worth the barely perceivable increase in image quality you see - not for reasonable people, and Apple's competitors persist in being reasonable.

      Fortunately for Apple, and unfortunately for the competitors, the prestige element is important to people. It's not quite gotten as dumb as people buying gold digital cables for their stereo equipment, but it's rapidly approaching it. It's the same mechanisms at work.

      --
      xkcd is not in the sudoers file. This incident will be reported.
    94. Re:Linux on Mac?! by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      You know how you can tell they're not actually good? Laptops which have only a trackpad are common, because almost everyone can get along fine on a good trackpad. But laptops with trackpoints almost always have trackpads too. Manufacturers know they can't offer trackpoint-only machines because most people will not like them.

      The way I see it, Lenovo offers most laptops with both because most people are used to trackpads and don't want to relearn. That said, my first laptop was a trackpoint-only Thinkpad, so I was essentially forced to learn to use it. Since then I'm disabling trackpads on all new laptops that I buy (which are still Thinkpads), because I find that they only get in the way. The only laptops with only a trackpad that I can use at all is anything Apple, the rest of them are pure crap.

    95. Re:Linux on Mac?! by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      I use it for number crunching and things-that-need-automating. Windows scripting sucks.

    96. Re:Linux on Mac?! by PopeRatzo · · Score: 2

      You think he'll get modded down on slashdot for being critical of something Apple does?!

      It'll take a few days to mobilize the Fanboi Trike Force, but yes, he will get downmods, and most likely will have comments he made from other articles downmodded as well.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    97. Re:Linux on Mac?! by Tenebrousedge · · Score: 1

      Wikipedia tells me that the human gamete contains ~800 megabytes of information in 23 chromosomes. Multiply by the median 250 million sperm == 200 petabytes. Over the theoretical max of 10 Gigabits per second of Thunderbolt, that sort of data transfer would take 1.6 x 10^8 seconds, or about five years. Humans having neither the largest genome nor sperm totals, it gives you a bit of respect for the sheer amount of information transferable by sex acts.

      The Intercourse is a series of tubes. Hey baby, want to see my fat pipe?

      --
      Those who advocate genocide deserve every protection afforded by law, and none afforded by common human decency.
    98. Re:Linux on Mac?! by Sir_Sri · · Score: 1

      Whatever you may say about apple, you have to concede they make interesting laptops. Not necessarily good, but certainly interesting. The form factor is pretty decent, the retina display is a terrible idea, but it's interesting to try out, the GPU switching etc. are all neat concepts. If you really want the form factor your options are limited, and you can't get anything like the retina display elsewhere.

      Eventually we'll all need to support higher density displays, Apple is leading the charge on this one, and no else seems to be stupid enough to follow along after them for the moment, but the sooner we start figuring out how to work with these things the easier it will be when the time comes and desktop users have 3840 x 2400 (or 3840 x 2160) displays, and quadrupole density displays will be common place on regular laptops.

    99. Re:Linux on Mac?! by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      They don't sell them because most of the public won't pay 60% margins just to get a higher screen. This is why you see all those 1366 and 1600 res laptops, economies of scale thanks to LCD TVs make those resolutions MUCH cheaper and when it doubt most will go for cheaper.

      If you DO want an extremely high resolution you'll need to look at units designed for the medical industry or even go to the Thinkpad forums and look under "high resolution" where you'll find lists of several vendors that sell aftermarket screens (again most for the medical industry) that will let your Thinkpad have truly crazy high resolutions.

      But you can't blame the public for going with what works for them. I've found most are quite happy with 1366 on monitors 17 inches and less because at the close up viewing angle higher resolutions simply don't justify the insane price differences. the reason Apple gets away with it is a "take it or shove it" attitude where if you want to play in Apple's playground you play by Apple's rules, and they have always made the public subsidize by giving them little to no choice when it comes to screens.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    100. Re:Linux on Mac?! by mortonda · · Score: 1

      (6) I spent little to no time now on system administration for my own system (compared with 20% of my work time in Linux, with unpredictable breakages)

      THIS.

      I have been a linux fan since '95 or so, but as I have transitioned from system admin work to programming, I find that linux is high maintenance. Since getting a mac, my efficiency at actually getting work done has skyrocketed because I don't spend time fiddling with the latest window manager widgets. I use linux for servers and testing, but it still can't match the stability of a mac desktop.

    101. Re:Linux on Mac?! by deergomoo · · Score: 1

      Even with Gatekeeper enabled, if you right-click an app and click open, rather than double clicking it, it will open/install fine. If that's too much of an inconvenience for you, it's literally one radio button to turn it off.

    102. Re:Linux on Mac?! by deergomoo · · Score: 1

      You are aware that OS X comes with gcc installed right?

    103. Re:Linux on Mac?! by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Have you actually used one for any extended period of time? They really don't provide much benefit.

      The main thing is that fonts are a lot sharper, but only in comparison to non-Retina Macs. Windows just uses fonts optimized for the screen so they look almost as sharp as just as readable, if not more so. Yes, more readable because they are designed for readability, unlike the Mac which defaults to Helvetica. Helvetica is a lovely font but there is a reason most books and magazines don't use it for sans-serif body text.

      You don't get any more on screen with a Retina display because most stuff is scaled. Web pages, for example, are just zoomed 2x. You are actually better off getting a PC laptop with 1600 or 1920 pixel wide screen, because the Macs are effectively 1440x900 after scaling.

      Maybe things will change when more apps are available designed for those screens. They make more sense on a tablet where you might want to zoom in and out of documents and web pages.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    104. Re:Linux on Mac?! by rubycodez · · Score: 1

      it doesn't run well on the new Retina gear either

    105. Re:Linux on Mac?! by tverbeek · · Score: 1

      The obvious goal is that it's a slick piece of hardware, with no equivalent gear from another source, and they want to run their preferred software on it. (I'd rather run OS X on it, but... diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks.)

      What I don't get is why the problems are such a surprise. The "no equivalent gear from another source" should've been the first clue: it's an exotic piece of hardware. I can name a whole host of specialized electronics that a typical Linux distro won't run properly on, due to hardware support issues. Especially if the hardware is new. You'll have the same kinds of problem if you try to install Windows on this hardware. Or install OS X on an MS Surface. Or Linux on an iPad. Or WebOS on a Playstation. Or any other mismatched hardware and OS. It's not as if Apple advertised this hardware as suitable for running the OS of your choice.

      --
      http://alternatives.rzero.com/
    106. Re:Linux on Mac?! by amorsen · · Score: 1

      Because the Macbook Pro Retina is the only laptop in the world with comparable specifications. Also, while the architecture is somewhat oddball and the manufacturer evil, Macs are reasonably popular and there are very few models to choose from. Therefore Linux support tends to end up quite good, simply because it is likely that some kernel hacker cares about the model you bought. In addition, "BIOS" upgrades for Macs are few, which makes things easier.

      In comparison, a random Acer has a much more standard architecture, but in all likelihood you are one of less than 10 Linux users in the world who use that particular model. If something model-specific does not work and you cannot fix it yourself, it will likely not get fixed.

      --
      Finally! A year of moderation! Ready for 2019?
    107. Re:Linux on Mac?! by amorsen · · Score: 1

      You don't get any more on screen with a Retina display because most stuff is scaled.

      That may be true on Mac OS X, but this article is about running Linux. You can certainly make web pages show smaller text in Linux.

      --
      Finally! A year of moderation! Ready for 2019?
    108. Re:Linux on Mac?! by tverbeek · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The whole GUI trend, the built-in-pointing-device trend, the keyboard-set-back-next-to-the-screen trend.... Apple has introduced a lot of design features (especially on laptops) which have since become standard and are now taken for granted. You may not like them all, but the notion that you don't like any of them is a bit preposterous.

      --
      http://alternatives.rzero.com/
    109. Re:Linux on Mac?! by HuguesT · · Score: 1

      Because the hardware is great, but the default software (OS X Mountain Lion) frankly sucks ?

    110. Re:Linux on Mac?! by HuguesT · · Score: 1

      Actually on the RMBP, you can change the effective resolution from effective 960x540 to 1920x1080 ; and to 2880x1800 after a quick hack. They are all very sharp. This is really cool in fact.

    111. Re:Linux on Mac?! by Midnight+Thunder · · Score: 1

      Each OS has its own quirks, its own primary audience and its own compromises.

      Darwin is open source. If you take your time you will find plenty of ways of doing "non-Jobs approved" stuff. The difference with Linux is that it wasn't designed with hackers and software engineers as the primary audience, but that doesn't stop them from doing many of the same things.

      Choose the OS that best serves your needs and accept other people have chosen an OS that best serves their present needs. Needs change and so may their OS, or yours.

      --
      Jumpstart the tartan drive.
    112. Re:Linux on Mac?! by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Anything which isn't 1/2 or 1/4 of the native resolution isn't going to be very sharp.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    113. Re:Linux on Mac?! by amorsen · · Score: 1

      Reading PDF's is vastly nicer on a high DPI screen. A Retina display would mean being able to have a typical reference PDF page made for A4 open on one side while doing work on the other side. My eyes are good, but the pixels are too damn large right now.

      I don't want a larger display, 17" notebooks are unwieldy.

      --
      Finally! A year of moderation! Ready for 2019?
    114. Re:Linux on Mac?! by amorsen · · Score: 1

      so it's not like there is anything one is missing - except X11.

      In other words, practically everything is missing.

      And yes you can run X11 on a Mac. That will make you install Linux real fast.

      --
      Finally! A year of moderation! Ready for 2019?
    115. Re:Linux on Mac?! by Mabhatter · · Score: 1

      Wash your hands more? It's not Apple's problem your hands are gross.

    116. Re:Linux on Mac?! by Em+Adespoton · · Score: 1

      You had me nodding with you until you got to apt-get.

      I run Ports on Macs; I *could* run apt-get, but I consider Ports to be a much better way of doing things.

      Apple tends to have groupthink, but every OS has that -- Linux just has an easier ability to fragment that into smaller subgroupthinks.

      While OS X does things differently than they're done on Linux (any flavour), I truly find some of the under-the-hood implementations more elegant for creative solutions. Of course, there are areas where Apple has chosen NOT to innovate, and no other developers have picked up the ball... and there are some kernel-based oddities that make rolling your own a complete headache every time a new point release of the OS comes out, but most difficulties with the OS come down more to ignorance than anything else.

      OS X, Windows, Ubuntu: they all have decent default configurations for users wanting to just get things done, but have slightly different ways of doing that. All three require significant investments of time to really understand all the internals and how to use them optimally. Anyone who is more than a casual user but less than an expert user (often called "power users") is going to have a headache of a time migrating their expectations and workflows between the three OSes, as they know it's possible to do more than the defaults, but don't know enough to figure out how to best accomplish their task on any OS other than the one they're most comfortable with.

      So... I'm curious what you mean by "remotely creative": I've been creative in how I customize OS X, I've been creative in what I accomplish on it (this usually doesn't even require modifications from the default install) AND I've been creative in how I implement my workflows.

      The OpenStep legacy of the nu kernel and OS message passing causes some operations to be slower than on Linux and a bit more clunky to implement, but you have the benefit of an OS-wide object model with excellent inheritence: make a change once, and the entire system inherits it. It's a tradeoff, and Apple gambled on computers becoming fast enough that a minor speed hit in non-opimized code for certain actions would be negligible compared to the cleanness of the inheritance model. For the most part, I agree with them, except when I smack against a brick wall that logic from other platforms dictates shouldn't be there at all. Then it takes me a while to "think different" and realise that with an alternate approach, I could accomplish the task in a more efficient way.

      In other words, With Macs you get shouted down for trying things that seem mundane on Linux or Windows, but on Macs you can easily do things that aren't even considered on Linux or Windows (even though they're possible if you try hard enough).

      It's kind of like someone attempting to switch out the transmission from a Toyota with one from a Ford and getting shouted down for it; it's probably not the best thing to actually do to accomplish the goal that prompted you to do it in the first place. It doesn't mean you can't do it though... it's just going to take more work than you might expect, and give you virtually no gain in accomplishing your actual goal (unless the switch itself was your goal).

    117. Re:Linux on Mac?! by HuguesT · · Score: 1

      Where to begin? OSX is no longer an OS for IT professionals. The most glaring problem is with its antiquated and unsafe filesystem. I have lost more files under OSX than under any other system combined. The only available RAID are level 0 and 1 and they are extremely clumsy to set up. There is a relatively safe version of ZFS but it is very slow, unsupported and outdated. Use at your own risk.

      The second most terrible problem is its support of OSS. There is basically none from Apple. The only available, not outdated and supported distribution system is Macports and you have to compile every bloody thing. Say you want to install SVN or HG ? That could take you half a day. Macports will probably start by compiling a proper version of GCC for you. This is because gcc is stuck at 4.2.1 under OSX because Apple doesn't like the new GPL. Then there is no guarantee that it will work. I have had to scrap my installation of macports several times and start from scratch because the end result was unusable.

      Next you have all the stupid utilities that you need to get things halfway reasonable, and they all are proprietary and costs tens of dollars. Want to have a reasonable R/W version of NTFS? $19 ! more than the entire OS these days.

      Then there is virtualization. You can't virtualize OSX legally before 10.6, and only if OSX is also the host. Note that Apple is really a dick here. Even Microsoft is not so stupid. How does one compile and test software for the older versions of OSX ?

      Then there are drivers. Say you want to use some kind of hardware, any hardware like a new graphics card ? Chances are that you'll have to wait until the next major version of OSX for it to be supported, and even then there is no guarantee, and performance will likely suck. You want to use something as simple as a bluetooth dongle on a Mac Pro? Sync with a brand new telephone that is not an iPhone? Good luck!

      For development purposes I have to run all three main OSes: Windows, OSX and Linux, I'm often on the move, this means I have to have an OSX machine and virtualize the others. Yes it is not so bad but it is increasingly disappointing.

      There is only one free, OSS application that works on OSX and no other OS that I'm aware of, and I do use it a lot: OSIRIX, a medical imaging software package. Conversely most of the free software available under Linux is theoretically available under OSX but not in practice. I don't know of anybody using KDE under OSX for instance.

    118. Re:Linux on Mac?! by amicusNYCL · · Score: 1

      What good is 1680x1050 if it's on a 30' screen?

      The 30 feet is the good part. But you wouldn't have a resolution that small on a screen that big. My 28" monitors are 1920x1200 native. A 30 foot screen would at least get 1080p I'm sure. But, again, when you go to those extremes it is the physical size you're paying for. You don't sit two feet away from a 30 foot screen like you do with a laptop.

      --
      "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
    119. Re:Linux on Mac?! by Kergan · · Score: 2

      What good is a 2880x1800 display with only 1GB of graphics memory?

      Displaying fonts and graphics at double resolution with sub-pixel antialiasing.

    120. Re:Linux on Mac?! by Em+Adespoton · · Score: 2

      Odd; I've had no problems implementing middle click copy/paste using the default install, nor have I had a problem with my number pad in vim (until I started using a keyboard with no number pad xP --Fn-NP just doesn't cut it, so I had to update my vimrc to move the functions to other keys). Decent terminal apps: other than Terminal.app (which is definitely sub-par in some areas and superior in others), there's a number found here: http://www.macupdate.com/find/mac/terminal%20emulator -- of which MacTerm is the best. There's also Konsole, which runs just fine (as does most of the KDE environment, complete with focus follows mouse).

      Personally, I always found FFM a bad idea, and haven't missed it; but then, I use my keyboard to change focus and do what I want, and don't want my mouse to be randomly messing with where my keyboard focus is going.

      OS X defaults definitely target one kind of user, and there's a learning curve if you're coming from a Linux background. If you're coming from a BSD background, the transition is significantly smoother, as almost everything can be implemented in the same way if you want to.

      That said, there's nothing wrong with OS X not being for you... there's lots of other OSes that run just fine on Mac hardware -- it appears with the exception of whatever distribution of Linux the story author used when it comes to the new MacBook Pro.

    121. Re:Linux on Mac?! by amicusNYCL · · Score: 1

      Your eyes must be a hell of a lot better than mine, because I have to get about 3 inches away from my 17" screen to discern individual pixels. It looks like the period at the end of this sentence is 2 x 1 pixels. Seeing as how my eyes are normally about 2 feet away from the screen, the pixels are most certainly not too damn large. The rent is still too damn high though.

      --
      "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
    122. Re:Linux on Mac?! by amicusNYCL · · Score: 1

      I just have to say that I find the "pixels are too damn large" comment a little ridiculous. I don't remember anyone complaining about large pixels before the new MBP came out. But all of a sudden large pixels are the next big problem that Apple has solved. They produce a solution, and people will find a problem for it to fix.

      --
      "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
    123. Re:Linux on Mac?! by jbolden · · Score: 1

      BS I use one everyday. The benefit you get is exactly what's claimed. Resolution quality photos and graphic resolutions are amazing. Working with video can be pixel perfect while you manipulate it.

      I find it impossible to go back to a low res monitor anymore.

    124. Re:Linux on Mac?! by jbolden · · Score: 1

      Actually it is. I don't understand how they pull this off. It doesn't make sense I'm sure there is some serious trickery going on, but yes they look sharp.

    125. Re:Linux on Mac?! by Bill,+Shooter+of+Bul · · Score: 1

      Software is almost always designed for hardware. Linux is pretty good at getting things that were never designed for it to run. In fact it has a vast repository of drivers for various peices and bits of hardware. The PC is nice in that it has a standard that everyone adheres to and so the surprises are at a minimum. The particular challange is usually based around graphics cards and new technologies things like ... thunderbolt. Most of thunderbolt actually works which is kind of surprising. As time goes on you'll see linux catch up and perhaps supass mac osx on the hardware as the individual components inside get adopted by the wider pc industry.

      --
      Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
    126. Re:Linux on Mac?! by Em+Adespoton · · Score: 1

      Linux is fine as a "normal desktop OS". The problem here is redefining "normal desktop" to mean grandmas that really should just get an iPad. A GUI does not negate the possibility of power users. There are plenty of GUI power users and they tend to get annoyed but Apple's allegedly superior product.

      Elaborate please... "power user" has traditionally been used as an epithet by people in my circles -- they're the ones who know enough to tweak things without understanding what they're actually doing or how to fix things if they break something using a third party script. You get these people on all platforms with all systems and applications.

      GUI power users are generally people who have learned how to tweak their preferred GUI on their preferred OS. They're often entrenched in their workflows, and when presented with a new interface, try to re-create their old tweaked GUI instead of trying to optimize how to use the new GUI to accomplish the same tasks.

      Apple tends to have a "superior product" but not superior components. The difference is that in Apple-land, all the components are designed to work together in the default configuration, even at the expense of functionality of some of the components. "Power users," those who like to tweak, get annoyed by this, because they want the whole product to work differently. Perfectly valid, but they tend to want it to work "that way" as opposed to "the best way it can for them."

      Of course, I'd love to still be able to do everything the same way I did 20 years ago, but I've found some GUI enhancements to actually be an improvement, even with the time needed to re-train my muscle memory to incorporate them.

      But what's with context-sensitive object placement??? ALL OSes have gone this route, and it's a pain to make ANY of them revert to persistent object placement. I want things to be where I put them, thank you very much. My brain is designed for that, and my muscles can drive that kind of interface without me even having to do more than glance at the images. /rant

    127. Re:Linux on Mac?! by mattsday · · Score: 1

      Add this to your .vimrc for numpad:
      "================
      " Numpad Hacks
      "================
      " Map numpad keys 0-9 to their respective digits
      :imap Oq 1
      :imap Or 2
      :imap Os 3
      :imap Ot 4
      :imap Ou 5
      :imap Ov 6
      :imap Ow 7
      :imap Ox 8
      :imap Oy 9
      :imap Op 0

      iTerm2 is a decent terminal emulator in my opinion.

      Not saying OS X is perfect, but at least you an use numpad now. My vimrc has a couple of other tricks for OS X too:
      http://matt.fragilegeek.com/vimrc

      --
      Now there's one hoopy frood who really knows where his towel is!
    128. Re:Linux on Mac?! by aztracker1 · · Score: 1

      I'm bent out of shape because the *DEFAULT* option was enabled, and didn't provide a prompt to disable/change when trying to install... Beyond this, the fact that I went to several app's websites to get the latest version, and was forced to download from the Mac Store (seems to be the trend), then in the mac store, I *HAD* to login, for a "free" app. Then when I logged in, I wasn't taken back to the app page that I was trying to install in the first place. What *I* expect is a seamless experience from a vendor that prides itself on seamless experiences. I don't think the above (prompt for first non-allowed install, and taking me back to app install post login) is too much to expect out of the box. I also don't like the big brother feel that apple's closed environment gives me, which is why I don't own an iOS device, and may use something other than OSX if it gets any more like iOS.

      --
      Michael J. Ryan - tracker1.info
    129. Re:Linux on Mac?! by monkeyhybrid · · Score: 1

      That was my first thought and for a traditional ~100 DPI screen, I'd agree.

      Having now played with the new Macbook retina model, however, I can say the scaling does work very well at each of the available resolutions even though it's not 1:1, 1:2, etc. It's not as sharp as 1:1 or 1:2 but because of the high DPI, any scaling 'rounding errors' (for want of a better phrase) are far less perceptible.

    130. Re:Linux on Mac?! by rrohbeck · · Score: 1

      NX works very well even on slow connections, but you can't remote control the actual desktop, only a new one.
      I have gone as far as using nxclient to create a new desktop and then "vinagre localhost" to access the physical desktop.

    131. Re:Linux on Mac?! by Em+Adespoton · · Score: 1

      For me the largest frustration, is the number of applications *only* available via the MacStore, and how cumbersome the MacStore is itself. Not to mention, the default setting for 10.8 (Mountain Lion) was to only allow app installs from "known" developers on the MacStore

      I only have 3 non-Apple apps installed from the MacStore, and I have hundreds of apps installed. I agree with how cumbersome the store is though.
      Just use MacUpdate.com or VersionTracker.com, and you'll find many applications available for direct download.

      As for the default setting: 10.8's default setting is to only run downloaded software signed by a registered developer key. You can tighten it to allow only MacStore software, but this is NOT the default. You can also loosen it to allow unsigned software, OR just right click the stuff you want to override, select Open, and it'll whitelist that app.

      This has nothing to do with installers by the way, it's the quarantine mechanism for any executable software downloaded through an application that supports the quarantine flag -- most major browsers, mail clients and some IM clients, but not much else. Anything acquired in any other manner won't have the quarantine flag set, and so will run just fine. This includes software you've compiled yourself, stuff from a USB stick or external drive, and even stuff via FTP or Bittorrent client.

      My only complaint with 10.8 is the cloud/SaS integration -- I'd rather not have that stuff shoved down my throat, thank you very much. I want my stuff to stay on my hardware, and don't want any data leakage. This is still possible, but having to always check to make sure it's reality is something I'd rather not have to do.

    132. Re:Linux on Mac?! by Em+Adespoton · · Score: 1

      All the command line flags are BSD style instead of the GNU way I know and love.

      I think this really sums up your issues. On OS X, you have to get used to the "export" and "defaults write" commands, as that's how everything non-standard is accomplished: the BSD way. I think I responded to the rest in my response to your other post.

      There's no lack of configuration options... they just aren't GNU or Windows-style configuration options. You get a different tool, you need to learn how to use it. If it was exactly the same, why not just use the other one you're familiar with?

      Of course, I was a BSD user before Linux showed up at the party, so I tend to have the same issues whenever I enter GNU land. This hasn't stopped me from appreciating Debian when used appropriately, however.

    133. Re:Linux on Mac?! by Em+Adespoton · · Score: 1

      Because the bastards won't let me upgrade my hardware to OS 10.8 ("too old" they claim). Well maybe Apple is into planned obsolescene of good hardware, but Microsoft and Linux aren't. I have not done it yet but could install either of these OSes since Apple no longer thinks I'm worthy of support. (And yes this is another reason Apple is a "luxury" brand like Lexus or Acura.... high initial cost, plus short OS lifespan == high cost of ownership).

      Um, you obviously don't have a 2012 MacBook Pro, which is what this story is about.

      If you've got a PowerBook or an old MacBook that's too old for 10.8, that means your battery is shot and the device is at least 5 years old.

      If this is the case, why upgrade past 10.7? It works perfectly fine with all current Mac software, and you can still run Windows and Linux in VMs on top. I know many people who are still running 10.6 because they see no compelling reason to change their OS.

      Oh, and if you complain about Apple eventually dropping support for 10.6... look to support for Debian Woody.

      When you can no longer run the software you need on your OS, THEN you can complain about your MacBook being "too old" and switching to Linux makes a LOT of sense... assuming that any modern Linux distro will run on it.

    134. Re:Linux on Mac?! by Eil · · Score: 1

      When I got hired at my current job, my first assignment was to go to store.apple.com and rack up around $3000 on a new computer. I chose a MacBook Pro with a few accessories.

      I had used Linux almost exclusively for over a decade, but tried to give OS X a fair shake for daily use. After two months of struggling, I couldn't train myself out of certain things that are very common in all of the major Linux desktop environments. (Focus follows mouse, middle click to paste, customizable panels, a fully-featured terminal, etc, etc.) Every time I tried to Google for a way to make OS X behave the way I wanted, the end result was always, "oh, Macs can't do that."

      So I installed Linux and haven't looked back. I'm just more productive with it and I can bend it to my will.

    135. Re:Linux on Mac?! by Em+Adespoton · · Score: 1

      Mybe he has a program he needs to run that won't run on Apple's OS? I'm really not very familiar with apple, do they have a music player that will fetch and display lyrics from the internet as the song plays? Amarok does, and afaik it only runs on Linux. Of course, Apple is now UNIX based, will Linux binaries runnatively on an Apple? Even if so, I'd rather get my programs from the distro's repository; little or no chance of being trojaned no matter what your OS.

      KDE runs on OS X, including Amarok. Amarok has run just fine on OS X for the past four years. Apple has had a UNIX based OS for the past 22 years (used to be A/UX) -- OS X has been around for ~12 of those as a POSIX-compatible OS. As Linux is not fully POSIX compatible, not all Linux binaries will run on OS X without tweaking... the same tweaking needed to make them work on any other Unixy OS, such as BSD. Hence why OS X uses the MacPorts system, which is pretty much the same as BSD Ports. MacPorts is a very decent repository for OS X -- as is the MacStore. For all else, you can still download from the author if you'd like, but there's more likelihood of trojans. The only place you really have to worry about trojans with 10.8's security model however is via warez distributed over torrents.

    136. Re:Linux on Mac?! by Smauler · · Score: 1

      Extreme resolutions is a lot more about prestige than utility

      No, no they're not. You're calling them "extreme", when in fact they've been around for years. Higher resolutions are just better. There are no disadvantages to higher resolutions, and there are many advantages. This is not an ePeen contest, it's just fact.

      Higher resolutions are better.

    137. Re:Linux on Mac?! by lightknight · · Score: 1

      Indeed. When I first read about the resolution, I was relatively happy to hear about the bump; but as I read about all the hardware missing that is needed to really support a screen at that resolution, I can't help picturing a pick-up truck with a jet engine lassoed to the top of it.

      --
      I am John Hurt.
    138. Re:Linux on Mac?! by drrilll · · Score: 1

      I do it with a macbook air.

      The hardware is nice, but OSX is terrible.

      I was starting to think I was the only one who felt that way. OSX is a flashy and expensive trip down mediocrity lane.I don't get why all the hype. Linux Mint is a bit buggy on my Mac, but it is still preferable to the perpetually spinning beach ball.

    139. Re:Linux on Mac?! by Smauler · · Score: 1

      the only point you've proven is that you're a fanboi who failed IQ test.

      The only people who fail an IQ test are those who think they can fail an IQ test.

    140. Re:Linux on Mac?! by antifoidulus · · Score: 1

      Your post makes no sense, you say you run Linux on Macs then go and lambast Apple hardware.... then why the fuck are you running Linux on a mac if you think Apple hardware is such garbage, why not just get something else? Me thinks you just like ranting against "the man" because somehow it will give you cred around here.

    141. Re:Linux on Mac?! by macinnisrr · · Score: 1

      X11 may not be the default windowing system for OSX, but it's been available since OSX's inception. Also, Darwin is not FreeBSD, even though it is based on it. You need to compile everything from source to make it work (this is the definition of non-trivial). And lastly (albeit most importantly), Apple hardware is comparably priced with anything from Dell, HP, or Lenovo (check it out). That being said, if the author wanted a retina display for whatever reason, he needed to buy a MBP. The other manufacturers you name don't offer products with this high resolution. My first laptop was an ibook G4 which I bought second-hand, just to see what the fuss was about. Although I had the same opinion of OSX at that time, I was wrong. It took me about a year before I jettisoned OSX in favour of Debian (and later Ubuntu, when it worked well enough). The hardware, though, was fantastic. I've since owned several laptops and none have outlasted that old ibook, which is still in use (it's our kitchen computer now).

    142. Re:Linux on Mac?! by yoshi_mon · · Score: 1

      ...but you are paying for actual hardware specs, not just snob appeal.

      You are paying for both. And sometimes only the latter.

      Further if you have a true need for that level of display then ok, you are paying for both. But if you do not then you are back to just paying for the latter.

      --

      Really, I know what I'm doing...Ohhhh, look at the shiny buttons!
    143. Re:Linux on Mac?! by coxymla · · Score: 1

      Look into how the High-DPI scaling works. It's still sharp.

    144. Re:Linux on Mac?! by Nimey · · Score: 1

      Ugh. I've got a couple graphic artists whose newish iMac keyboards are already filthy. The ones they'd had for a few years prior were worse. Much worse. One's keys were largely black.

      --
      Hail Eris, full of mischief...

      E pluribus sanguinem
    145. Re:Linux on Mac?! by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure you've refuted the parent's point all that well. Parent makes the claim that no one is making 2880x1800 laptops, and you counter by claiming that he could get a 1920x1200 or 2048x1536 display.

      I think I missed that day in math class where they showed how 2304000 = 3145728 = 5184000....

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    146. Re:Linux on Mac?! by dbIII · · Score: 1

      "power user" has traditionally been used as an epithet by people in my circles

      From a very boring and entirely pointless MS Word training course:
      Q: What about if we want to put an image on the page?
      A: Only power users do things like that.

    147. Re:Linux on Mac?! by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      When the pixels are smaller than you can see, even a non power of two multiple of the native resolution can be quite sharp.

    148. Re:Linux on Mac?! by tyrione · · Score: 1

      I don't care.

      OSX screws up just too much. The whole interface is dumbed way down, it is not configurable to any real degree and it is missing lots of normal features. One of the first that springs to mind is having one wallpaper across more than one monitor. Instead I have to cut the image up into two then place one on each screen.

      Hate to crap on you, but your complaints are vapor. Routinely getting Xorg latest stable with latest Nvidia drivers and Linux 3.2.x to lock up routinely is not a problem for me with Debian Sid. Hell, I can get any OS to lock up when you push it hard enough.

    149. Re:Linux on Mac?! by JDG1980 · · Score: 1

      Well, you're paying for snob appeal, mostly. And yes, if you need a high-res screen, then you'll partly be paying for that. But were most people buying those products now previously screaming out for such high-res? Nope.

      I've seen quite a few complaints on Slashdot that monitor resolutions and/or DPIs are actually lower than they were a few years ago, and that it's very difficult and/or expensive to get anything above 1080p. Many of these complaints predate the release of the Retina MacBook Pro. See, for example, this article, which was published after Apple introduced the iPhone 4, but before the iPad 3 and Retina MacBook Pro. Or how about this article, in which Microsoft complains about the very same thing. So, yes, people were "screaming out for such high-res".

    150. Re:Linux on Mac?! by ti-85 · · Score: 1

      It's the dreamer, not the dream.

    151. Re:Linux on Mac?! by arkane1234 · · Score: 1

      You realize what you said is about like saying that you realize that was a cavalier and chevy... right?

      --
      -- This space for lease, low setup fee, inquire within!
    152. Re:Linux on Mac?! by arkane1234 · · Score: 1

      Middle mouse buttons are about like having a 4 button mouse. It's another button to program to do something, and that's about it.

      --
      -- This space for lease, low setup fee, inquire within!
    153. Re:Linux on Mac?! by Dahan · · Score: 1

      I don't remember anyone complaining about large pixels before the new MBP came out.

      Here's a /. article from 2002, "ViewSonic shows 200 dpi display", where a number of people think the new-at-the-time 200dpi display is great and long overdue.

      I know that ever since I got a laptop with a 133dpi screen back in 2001 or so (1600x1200, 15") and saw how good text looked on it, I've been looking for a display with at least that pixel density (preferably higher) that I can use with my desktop computer. The 1920x1080 on a 21.5" (or larger) screen that's popular these days is a regression and just doesn't look as good (it works out to around 100dpi, or lower).

    154. Re:Linux on Mac?! by Dahan · · Score: 1

      Hah! I will settle for finding a 13-14" laptop with 1600x900 resolution and even a bit competitive with mac book air's weight. The only one that I have been able to find a year ago is definitely more expensive than mac book air.

      Asus Zenbook UX31 or UX31A? 13", 1600x900 (or 1920x1080), 1.3kg, starting around US$1000.

    155. Re:Linux on Mac?! by Compaqt · · Score: 1

      I can't speak for the profit margins of manufacturers, and I'm no Apple fan, but:

      Higher screen resolution definitely has the advantage of clearer text. You can get more pixels in to define the shape of a character, instead of barely having a few pixels in a kinda-sorta curve to simulate.

      --
      I'm not a lawyer, but I play one on the Internet. Blog
    156. Re:Linux on Mac?! by Compaqt · · Score: 1

      Do you mostly use your laptop at 1 or 2 fixed locations, or a lot of different places?

      If the former, it's much more comfortable to have the laptop at somewhat of a distance, and a separate keyboard and mouse, instead of scrunching forward toward the laptop keyboard and angling your neck downward to the screen.

      --
      I'm not a lawyer, but I play one on the Internet. Blog
    157. Re:Linux on Mac?! by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Many different places. I have a good desktop both at home & at work, so I don't see a point of having laptop as a primary there. It's a travel thing.

    158. Re:Linux on Mac?! by Bake · · Score: 1

      No, the default setting for 10.8 is MacStore AND known developers.
      Known developers being those who have SIGNED their packages.

      If you don't like it you can change that radio button in the security preferences to "Anywhere" and be done with it.

      Hell, I've had APT warn me that software from a different repository wasn't signed and prompted me to override it before proceding with installation.

      This restriction does however not apply to software built on your own machine, only stuff downloaded/copied from another machine/internet.

    159. Re:Linux on Mac?! by Compaqt · · Score: 1

      > - If the current window is not fullscreen, moving the mouse over another one does not change the focus, so I can reach the menubar.

      Ubuntu, please implement this for Unity. Thanks.

      A 500ms delay for changing the focus would be great.

      --
      I'm not a lawyer, but I play one on the Internet. Blog
    160. Re:Linux on Mac?! by Vintermann · · Score: 1

      I'm not saying higher pixel density gives you nothing. I'm saying it really takes an unreasonable set of priorities to prefer ever so slightly more smooth character shapes (right on the border to not notiecable) over an hour more of battery life.

      --
      xkcd is not in the sudoers file. This incident will be reported.
    161. Re:Linux on Mac?! by Vintermann · · Score: 1

      Well, in a sense. The resolutions have been around for years, it's the pixel density that's extreme. But you are totally wrong that there are no disadvantages to it. Most (non-gamer) people have no idea how much more work the computer needs to do work on a 2880x1800 display as opposed to a 1920x1080 display. That's processing power that could have been put to better use, and in this case battery power that could have been saved.

      --
      xkcd is not in the sudoers file. This incident will be reported.
    162. Re:Linux on Mac?! by cerberusss · · Score: 1

      Because Mountain Lion isn't THAT much of an upgrade over Lion, and whatever comes after

      "Space Lion". Obviously.

      --
      8 of 13 people found this answer helpful. Did you?
    163. Re:Linux on Mac?! by Lord+Lode · · Score: 1

      No, not their trackpads. When it comes to pointing devices, Apple and me are the exact opposites. There's only one good pointing device: a mouse with 3 or more clicky buttons where one is a scrollwheel. Nice an tactile. And preferably with hardware DPI switch.

    164. Re:Linux on Mac?! by ratbag · · Score: 1

      I'm sure not going to argue that people use KDE under OSX, but for general OSS needs try homebrew - http://mxcl.github.com/homebrew/

      I develop for Linux, Windows and MacOS on my Macs. I abandoned MacPorts and Fink a year ago and haven't looked back. My current list of brews is:

      brew list
      ack gettext markdown postgresql tmux
      autoconf git mercurial qt vim
      automake graphviz nmap readline watch
      boost htop node scons wget
      cmake htop-osx ossp-uuid splint xerces-c
      dos2unix libevent pcre ssh-copy-id
      doxygen macvim pkg-config swig

    165. Re:Linux on Mac?! by bhtooefr · · Score: 1

      GP also mentioned that nobody is making anything better than 1080p, which is what I was refuting.

    166. Re:Linux on Mac?! by adolf · · Score: 1

      I've got an old laptop with a 1920x1200 15.4" screen, and ever since I bought it (7 or 8 years ago) I've been looking for something with similar DPI for my desk. Haven't found it.

      I've even looked into adapting such a laptop display for desktop use by grafting on a DVI port, but it turns out that it's a fool's errand of expensive and fickle adapters (or Deep Magic that I am not privy to understanding).

      I mostly gave up on this quest some time ago, but with Apple's push toward higher-resolution displays it might actually happen sometime within my lifetime as others compete with their offerings.

    167. Re:Linux on Mac?! by Ed+Avis · · Score: 1

      Because you want a laptop running Linux, and you like high-resolution displays, and the Macbook Pro 15" is the only laptop on the market with a high-res display. It's sad that Dell, or HP, or Lenovo are incapable of selling interesting new hardware rather than increasingly crappy me-too copies of what everyone else has, but that's the world we live in.

      --
      -- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
    168. Re:Linux on Mac?! by robi5 · · Score: 1

      Go read books produced on matrix printers. Your limits may not apply to others.

    169. Re:Linux on Mac?! by Dracophile · · Score: 1

      #firstworldproblems

      --
      Athy, athier, athiest.
    170. Re:Linux on Mac?! by retchdog · · Score: 1

      alright, something useful! i'll give this a shot, since i've definitely been in situations where vnc at least gave me something, while x was unusably crappy. thanks.

      --
      "They were pure niggers." – Noam Chomsky
    171. Re:Linux on Mac?! by h4rr4r · · Score: 2

      If you are just going to script, why bother with a GUI at all?

    172. Re:Linux on Mac?! by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      How did you get middle click paste to work through out the OS? Not just in the terminal.

      I will check out MacTerm.

    173. Re:Linux on Mac?! by DMUTPeregrine · · Score: 1

      I've seen >20 year old Model M keyboards still in use, with nice white keys. Of course those are the ones who's users actually care enough to clean them once in a while.

      --
      Not a sentence!
    174. Re:Linux on Mac?! by gsnedders · · Score: 1

      Well, yes. GCC being outdated when it's all but abandoned and Clang is the default compiler isn't massively surprising. If you care enough, you can always build an up-to-date GCC version.

    175. Re:Linux on Mac?! by jeremyp · · Score: 1

      I'm reading this on an MBP Retina with the resolution set to 1920 x 1080 and the display is sharp. I can only assume this is because of the pixel density (i.e. it's not really sharp but the blurry is too small to see).

      --
      All I want is a secure system where it's easy to do anything I want. Is that too much to ask ~~ Randall Munroe
    176. Re:Linux on Mac?! by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      Thanks, slashdot ruined your instructions but I got it. That was very helpful.

    177. Re:Linux on Mac?! by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      Because why run software I don't like when I can run software I like?

      Please do tell me how to turn on FFM, without buying another piece of software. These are the kinds of configuration options I am looking for. Middle click highlight paste is another and not just in the terminal.

    178. Re:Linux on Mac?! by Stuarticus · · Score: 1

      "640 x 480 should be enough for anyone"

      - m1ndcrash

      --
      If you think someone isn't free to have a different definition of "freedom" you may be a tyrant.
    179. Re:Linux on Mac?! by DMUTPeregrine · · Score: 1

      I like xmonad. Any window manager that has under 200 kilobytes of source can't be bloated.

      --
      Not a sentence!
    180. Re:Linux on Mac?! by andy16666 · · Score: 1

      The key is that you're not actually changing the resolution. You're changing the "effective" resolution, which simply changes how large things are on the screen.

    181. Re:Linux on Mac?! by donaldm · · Score: 1

      Why in the world would you even try to do it? What is the goal of this endeavour?

      I think the short answer is "because I want to".

      Basically a MAC is more expensive than a standard PC however that won't stop people buying them especially since the OS "just works" and the Apple hardware is IMHO very much more professional looking and of course you can't forget the bragging rights. But putting Linux on the Apple hardware "why bother" unless you either get someone to do it or you have enough smarts to do it yourself.

      I can understand someone requiring a high res monitor and Apple monitors are very good however before commiting myself to purchasing one I would do some home-work first, in fact I would do some research before buying a personal comuter. From my perspective a reasonable PC (Intel/AMD) is fine for me and does everything I require especially since I use my laptop (native Linux OS - no dual boot) in a profesional capacity as well as for home use.

      --
      There ain't no such thing as proprietary standards only proprietary formats. Standards are by definition open.
    182. Re:Linux on Mac?! by donaldm · · Score: 1

      The problem with a dual boot between OSF and Ubuntu is exactly the same as between MS Windows and a Linux distribution, the owner will eventually go back to the OS they find more convient for them to use and the second OS is normally forgotton or booted up for braging rights. I normally find it is best to chose the OS you are comfortable with as the only OS you boot on the hardware and any other OS's that you may need for testing or required purposes run under a virtual machine. Once you do this you would never go back to dual booting especially since you only have to backup one OS.

      --
      There ain't no such thing as proprietary standards only proprietary formats. Standards are by definition open.
    183. Re:Linux on Mac?! by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      I lambasted Mac hardware support. Not Mac hardware.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    184. Re:Linux on Mac?! by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      > You had me nodding with you until you got to apt-get.

      apt-get is a comprehensive solution that isn't just bolted on as an afterthought or by the end user. It is at the same time secure and open. It's not just a single app but a set of tools that any 3rd party can use. It allows for a seamless experience for everything rather than just a small subset of stuff that happens to be in a particular silo.

      It allows for power users to provide bleeding edge builds, commercial 3rd parties can tie into it, and random "disconnected" web downloads can take advantage of it.

      Chances are that you only have to mention a cool app by name and I can already install it just by calling it by name.

      It's the app store as a tool set lacking the artificial limitations Apple likes to put on things.

      > on Macs you can easily do things that aren't even considered on Linux or Windows

      I've yet to see this myself. I've yet to see any of you fan boys manage to bring up a single example of this in any of your attempts at propaganda.

      Macs are a lot of hype and nonsense.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    185. Re:Linux on Mac?! by ackthpt · · Score: 1

      Why in the world would you even try to do it? What is the goal of this endeavour?

      Its like squeezing a Chevy V6 into a Ferrari.

      Because you can.

      When I was in Michigan I saw what I thought was the most outlandish faux pas I've seen to date .. a Chevy 454 engine in a Porshe 911. Talk about a down grade, bet the handling is horrible. Pointless.

      --

      A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
    186. Re:Linux on Mac?! by Em+Adespoton · · Score: 1

      It looks like I stand corrected; there appears to be no way to middle-select into a separate copy buffer by default on OS X. You can assign copy and paste to the middle button (or other guestures/clicks) however, and you can select with any button and drag the text to where you want it pasted.

      I'm happy with click-drag and command-c/command-v, or else I might write an applescript to handle this -- it would be fairly easy to write an applescript that checks for selected content, and if found, copies it to a new clipboard -- and if no selection is found, pastes the contents of the clipboard to the mouse position. After saving the script, assign middle click to running that script, and you're set.

      It seems to me that someone should be able to add the functionality into quartz-wm though -- it's an OSS project after all. You wouldn't have a GUI method of enabling it in Aqua, but defaults write should be able to enable it.

    187. Re:Linux on Mac?! by erp_consultant · · Score: 1

      That's a good point and honestly I don't use Ubuntu that much. I can run all the open source software natively on OSX and OSX is my preferred OS. Part of my build does include VM's - Windows XP, Windows 7 Home and Windows 7 Enterprise - and I like using them although they run just a tad slower than the dual boot option. Of course, having them in a VM means that you don't have to restart the machine and if you are switching a lot it can be a pain. VM's can be a bit memory hungry so you need to make sure that you've got about 8GB total to run the host and VM comfortably, at least in my experience. 4GB will work but it's always better to have more if your PC/budget will allow.

    188. Re:Linux on Mac?! by amicusNYCL · · Score: 1

      According to that logic, we should all be using 14" CRT .51 dot pitch monitors.

      Actually, no. No, that's not what that means at all.

      --
      "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
    189. Re:Linux on Mac?! by Em+Adespoton · · Score: 1

      One useful tidbit that may at least ease FFM raise-on-click frustration: command-clicking a window doesn't raise it. Option-clicking a window in a different app hides all windows in the current app and changes focus. It's possible to assign command-click to a different mouse button/gesture so that you can click background windows without bringing them to the front.

      When selecting text, you can select text, start to drag it, and then either drop it in a background window (keeping it in the background), or hit a mouse/gesture/key combo to rotate app windows, rotate apps, jump to Expose/Mission Control, or with option held down, hide the current app and switch focus to the window under the mouse.

      All these modifiers can be assigned to mouse presses, gestures and keystrokes, so you can set it up however you want.

    190. Re:Linux on Mac?! by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      Your problems can be summarised as "I want OSX to behave like Linux". To which the simple answer is, just carry on using Linux.

      A far greater number of people like an OS that is easier and more elegant than Linux. They're happy with OSX.

      OSX would not be improved by making it more like Linux. Not even by offering options to make it more Linuxy. Every additional option has a usability and reliability cost.

    191. Re:Linux on Mac?! by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      It lets me more easily manage all those terminal windows. Also, it's where Thunderbird runs.

    192. Re:Linux on Mac?! by Type44Q · · Score: 1

      sometimes you just want to stick a Chevy four-banger in your Ferrari

      Aw, come on: the hardware in the Macbook is a little better than that!

    193. Re:Linux on Mac?! by DusterBar · · Score: 1

      Let me see, 5 million pixels, 4 bytes per pixel = 20megabytes. Lets say we tripple buffer that, we are at 60megabytes. So how is 1,000megabytes (1GB) of video memory a limiting factor? You would have over 900megabytes available for 3D models and shaders even if tripple buffering *and* keeping the desktop display separate.

    194. Re:Linux on Mac?! by toddestan · · Score: 1

      Actually, it was the Thinkpads who originally offered high resolution screens at 2048x1536 several years ago. Sadly they never caught on and IBM silently discontinued them.

    195. Re:Linux on Mac?! by ilsaloving · · Score: 1

      Because by using VNC you are running a remote desktop. If you have something graphical you want to run, and want it to stay running even when you disconnect, then tunnelling X isn't going to do it.

      Personally, I can't think of a single example that would require the above, but it's a use case none the less.

    196. Re:Linux on Mac?! by ilsaloving · · Score: 1

      Why in the world would you buy a Mac if you are that concerned about customizing every little button and knob in the OS?

      More importantly, where do you work that pays you enough to buy Apple products but still gives you the freedom to worry about such pointless details?

      The purpose of an OS is to facilitate you running applications and getting work done. Everything else is gravy.

      I bought my MB because I was sick of Windows crashing. I was sick of Windows randomly rebooting because of incessant updates. That Windows couldn't even reliably suspend/resume properly. The list goes on and on. In other words, reliability and consistency are hell of a lot more important to me than the ability to set my window borders to exactly 3 pixels wide.

      Windows 7 seems to have finally stabilized the platform, but unless Apple does something unfathomably stupid to make using a Mac untenable, I won't be jumping ship anytime soon.

      If OSX bothers you that much, just put Windows on it and be done with it. But understand that something isn't stupid just because it doesn't do what you want it to do. That's like buying a car and complaining that you can't drive across the lake. You use the product that serves your needs the best, no more, no less.

    197. Re:Linux on Mac?! by ilsaloving · · Score: 1

      Ok, I have to ask... You say Apple reliability and consistency is overrated?

      You *like* having your computer crash on you? You *like* playing a game of treasure hunt, trying to find the function you want to use?

      When I was on Windows, I could go maybe a day or two between reboots, a week if I'm lucky. On Mac, I go *weeks* between reboots. And that's including suspend/resuming constantly.

    198. Re:Linux on Mac?! by aztracker1 · · Score: 1

      the difference with Apt, is it prompts you to allow anyway... not giving you a "f*ck you" dialog leaving you to hunt for the setting.

      --
      Michael J. Ryan - tracker1.info
    199. Re:Linux on Mac?! by aztracker1 · · Score: 1

      most oses that have similar security prompts have an allow anyway option... this move was a big brother move period.

      --
      Michael J. Ryan - tracker1.info
    200. Re:Linux on Mac?! by amorsen · · Score: 1

      I've complained about ridiculously low DPI for more than a decade. Sun black-and-white CRT's from the early 90's had acceptable resolution and sharpness (most CRT's are terribly blurry when set for useful resolutions), but at 20kg they made notebooks a bit unwieldy. Also, colour can be useful.

      --
      Finally! A year of moderation! Ready for 2019?
    201. Re:Linux on Mac?! by Forty+Two+Tenfold · · Score: 1

      a screen with that high a resolution

      Is a waste of resources. I am aware that USAns love excess but that's that.

      --
      Upward mobility is a slippery slope - the higher you climb the more you show your ass.
    202. Re:Linux on Mac?! by colinrichardday · · Score: 1

      Why not just tunnel X over SSH?

      Can you tunnel X over SSH on a machine without the X libraries, and if not, do you want to install X on Microsot Windows? I've done it, but it's not great.

    203. Re:Linux on Mac?! by glitch0 · · Score: 1

      OS X has homebrew which in my opinion is just as good as apt-get, if not better. It doesn't require root privileges like apt-get does, which is a nice feature.

      --
      -Glitch "We all know Linux is great...it does infinite loops in 5 seconds." - Linus Torvalds
    204. Re:Linux on Mac?! by glitch0 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, because that stuff is so easy on Windows. At least compare Apples to Apples (haha)

      --
      -Glitch "We all know Linux is great...it does infinite loops in 5 seconds." - Linus Torvalds
    205. Re:Linux on Mac?! by McDutchie · · Score: 1

      DPI is what resolution is. "1680x1050" is not a resolution, it's just the number of pixels.

    206. Re:Linux on Mac?! by X0563511 · · Score: 1

      Maybe, by denotative definition. Stick "resolution" into Google and realize the rest of the English speaking world considers the X by Y pixel counts (and it's equivalents, like 1080p) to be the resolution.

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    207. Re:Linux on Mac?! by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      Yeah, and you know because that's the way you moderate, isn't it, shithead?

      No.

      By the way, "Grudge2012 (2662391)", I'm seeing something interesting in your posting habits. Just out of curiosity, which of the "new media strategies" companies do you work for? You're working much too hard and limiting your comments to pro-Apple to such an extent that I don't think you're an amateur.

      The tags you have added to stories are particularly enlightening.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    208. Re:Linux on Mac?! by Alex+Belits · · Score: 1

      My assessment of your Linux use is unchanged.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
  3. Hardly newsworthy by MrEricSir · · Score: 4, Informative

    Linux doesn't exactly have a reputation for working well on brand-new hardware. The new MacBooks only came out a couple months ago, give Linux some time!

    --
    There's no -1 for "I don't get it."
    1. Re:Hardly newsworthy by erroneus · · Score: 3, Interesting

      On PC hardware, it has been running a LOT better than before. That said, it's still essentially true -- nothing works out of the box unless it is like 3+ years old.

      With all that said, Apple goes out of its was to "think different" so that its hardware is more exclusive and more likely to be running Mac OS X... but only Mac OS X version 10."latest" because they are dropping support for hardware older than X years. (Where X is a number between 2 and 5) So anyone with ideas of installing anything other than pure Apple Mac OS X on it will be faced with some challenges.

    2. Re:Hardly newsworthy by Isaac-1 · · Score: 1

      Much the same can be said about my year old higher end Thinkpad

    3. Re:Hardly newsworthy by jrminter · · Score: 4, Informative

      It is one thing to have an older MacBook and think about moving to a Linux distro when the current OS no longer supports your hardware, but unless you are a hobbyist who get pleasure from tinkering and wants to see "if I can...", it seems like a waste of time and money. Note that I am writing this on a 2009 MacBook Pro with Mountain Lion but I also use Linux for many aspects of my work. If I wanted a Linux laptop to just "get my work done," I would look carefully at one of these: http://zareason.com/shop/Laptops/ The key is to let your supplier work out the hardware details. That is part of why one buys from a given supplier. We are all free to tinker to our hearts content, but if our objective is to use the system to do something useful, it is typically more productive to get something that works on the OS of choice. This is hardly a new concept...

    4. Re:Hardly newsworthy by Yvanhoe · · Score: 1

      Heh give the specs, have the driver. It works that way for closed-source drivers, and open source developers manage the incredible feat to reverse engineer hardware in order to write workable devices.

      Complaining about badly working closed devices on linux is like taunting a basketball player you just cuffed for not managing to move as swiftly as the others...

      Hmmmm.... is open source driver development the equivalent of the capoiera martial art ?

      --
      The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
    5. Re:Hardly newsworthy by l3v1 · · Score: 1, Interesting

      "so they modified their OS to handle the new technology"

      Oh, so that's why you have to use 3rd party "hacks" to enable native 2880x1800... handling it indeed.

      --
      I am putting myself to the fullest possible use, which is all I can think that any conscious entity can ever hope to do.
    6. Re:Hardly newsworthy by jbolden · · Score: 1

      This is a crazy rant.

      1) Yes the rMBP stresses the video card. It doesn't bother the rest of the system. Background tasks are fine.
      2) There is nothing sneaky about the rMBP's higher power usage, Apple tells you the wattage on their power supplies in their store. They call them the "70 watt power brick"...
      3) The core parts of Apple software go back to NeXTStep. Some of which goes back to Apple Unix and the Lisa.

       

    7. Re:Hardly newsworthy by jbolden · · Score: 1

      This has nothing to do with closed source. Here is the driver for the retina's video card: http://www.nvidia.com/object/linux-display-amd64-295.59-driver.html

    8. Re:Hardly newsworthy by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      Heck you will surprised what crazy hacks I needed to get Linux to Display 1024x600 on my wife's netbook.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    9. Re:Hardly newsworthy by thetoadwarrior · · Score: 1

      Mac supported a lot of things before PCs but they ended up on PCs. Thunderbolt isn't meant to be a Mac only thing nor are retina displays (if laptop manufactuers have any intelligence).

      That's like saying it's a problem that Apple opted to support firewire or be the first to dump floppies and push USB. The only problem with it is that there is only one company that's willing to push hardware futher than the bare minimum necessary.

    10. Re:Hardly newsworthy by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      Eventually, but by the time linux has caught up there is new hardware out. It's a miracle the community manages as well as they do - most hardware manufacturers are just uninterested. Upwards of 90% of desktop customers run windows, so there is no business incentive to support anything else.

    11. Re:Hardly newsworthy by thetoadwarrior · · Score: 1

      My 6 year old Thinkpad was quite expensive at the time but it's still like new and with the SSD I've put in it, I'd argue it's a better laptop than what most people buy new today. My MBP is still more portable though so eventually Linux will go on that.

    12. Re:Hardly newsworthy by hobarrera · · Score: 1

      The difference is that your wife's notebook wan't designed specifically for Linux.

    13. Re:Hardly newsworthy by MrEricSir · · Score: 1

      Well the KDE part is true, because it doesn't need to be optimized (svg, muthafuckas).

      Someone doesn't understand the realities of using SVG for GUIs, I see. Just because SVG graphics *can* be stretched to any size, it doesn't mean they'll look good at any size. Most of the time you end up making multiple SVG graphics for the different sizes you expect to support.

      For a concrete example, take a look at Shotwell's SVG icon -- there's three different sizes:
      http://git.yorba.org/cgit.cgi/shotwell/plain/icons/shotwell-16.svg
      http://git.yorba.org/cgit.cgi/shotwell/plain/icons/shotwell-24.svg
      http://git.yorba.org/cgit.cgi/shotwell/plain/icons/shotwell.svg

      --
      There's no -1 for "I don't get it."
    14. Re:Hardly newsworthy by flatt · · Score: 1

      Should Mac OS X ever top the desktop OS market (unlikely as it may be), it is pretty much a given that they would do it. See Microsoft. Historically, I think that Apple has been even more harsh than Microsoft when it has been given the opportunity. To be fair, every corporation loves the chance to pull the ladder up behind them and begin charging rent at every possible turn.

      Obviously, they may opt to do it well before then and possibly charging for unlocking to allow for booting into anther OS. As GP noted, for your protection, of course.

    15. Re:Hardly newsworthy by robmv · · Score: 1

      I don't see evilness but I see abusiveness, Microsoft like behavior, example: hiding Thunderbolt to OSs that doesn't expose themselves with the name Darwin

    16. Re:Hardly newsworthy by 0123456 · · Score: 1

      That said, it's still essentially true -- nothing works out of the box unless it is like 3+ years old.

      Uh, what?

      When I bought my netbook I installed Ubuntu on it and everything worked out of the box. When I bought my laptop (not a Mac since it would have cost 2.5x as much as the Windows laptop I bought) I installed Ubuntu on it and everything worked out of the box.

      The big problem is undocumented hardware like the Nvidia GPU-switching and presumably whatever Apple crap is in this one.

    17. Re:Hardly newsworthy by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      No. Apple is the company willing to leave their users no other option. They're the company most willing to f*ck their legacy users over. This is not anything to brag about.

      What Apple forces on you, PC vendors present as an option.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    18. Re:Hardly newsworthy by jbolden · · Score: 1

      Should Mac OS X ever top the desktop OS market (unlikely as it may be), it is pretty much a given that they would do it

      Why? Assume that everyone in the world bought nothing but Apple computers and they all ran Linux on them. Why would Apple be unhappy with that?

      Apple does not sell OSes, the OS is a way to sell their hardware. They see themselves as being in the same business as Dell more than Microsoft.

    19. Re:Hardly newsworthy by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      So that driver handles the whole "hybrid" thing too?

      This isn't just your normal discrete nvidia card. Otherwise that should have been a pretty simple thing to deal with.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    20. Re:Hardly newsworthy by jo_ham · · Score: 1

      They don't go out of their way to make the hardware incompatible - you're seeing an evil Machiavellian scheme where non exists - they simply design the hardware to fit the design brief they come up with: namely that it works with OS X.

      All of the various pieces are pretty standard (especially with the switch to x86) so it doesn't take long for other operating systems to get it all working. For Windows they even include all the drivers you need when you install bootcamp.

    21. Re:Hardly newsworthy by thetoadwarrior · · Score: 2

      Just how long do you expect something to be supported? Especially given how Microsoft's expertise in legacy support has done nothing but cause problems for 3rd parties and themselves.

    22. Re:Hardly newsworthy by Jonner · · Score: 1

      Linux doesn't exactly have a reputation for working well on brand-new hardware. The new MacBooks only came out a couple months ago, give Linux some time!

      Linux runs just fine on many types of brand new machines, especially if they have Intel video. However, Mac hardware has often been more problematic than others. I am currently using a 2011 MacBookPro (provided by my employer so I didn't have a choice of hardware) and after more than a year, most of the hardware works well. Initially, the Wifi didn't work at all because of typical Broadcom lack of cooperation. It was difficult or impossible to use the optical drive from Linux and Apple's PC BIOS doesn't seem to support booting from USB at all so installing a distribution was a major pain in the butt. Though the machine has both Intel and AMD video, only the AMD chip is usable after booting via PC BIOS so that's a power tax that is always exacted. Though it is possible to boot Linux via EFI and use the more efficient Intel video with great effort, I never got an external monitor to work. All of my experience leads me to expect that these types of difficulties will continue or get worse with newer Apple hardware.

    23. Re:Hardly newsworthy by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      Actually, I got it preinstalled with Linux from Dell... I tried upgrading it (because the wi-fi was extrealy slow) and now I got faster Wi-Fi but less display.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    24. Re:Hardly newsworthy by VortexCortex · · Score: 1

      Bonus! You can even install Windows on that ZaReason Hardware -- Aaaaaand! You can even install OSX! Oh, but only if you want to break the law. Screw you Apple. This is why I don't dev for your systems -- I have superior hardware, but it's illegal to install OSX on them. I'm not buying some more expensive and less powerful hardware just to join your hipster club. Want more (game) software for OSX? Too bad, Apple doesn't want me to make it.

    25. Re:Hardly newsworthy by flatt · · Score: 1

      Why? Assume that everyone in the world bought nothing but Apple computers and they all ran Linux on them. Why would Apple be unhappy with that?

      Apple does not sell OSes, the OS is a way to sell their hardware. They see themselves as being in the same business as Dell more than Microsoft.

      Certainly that situation would still be quite profitable for Apple but the desire would be overwhelming to charge for the entire stack: hardware, OS, Applications, media, online storage, the list goes on. The App Store model is very profitable. In fact, Apple is already very well established in this arena for iOS devices. They aren't exactly going out of their way to open up the boot loaders on iPhones and iPads to allow for alternative OS's just to sell more hardware, otherwise they might as well sell them with Android preinstalled. With the App Store showing up in recent Mac OS X versions, one could argue that they are already going down this path for the desktop.

    26. Re:Hardly newsworthy by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

      "The difference is that your wife's notebook wan't designed specifically for Linux."

      Neither was any computer Apple ever made.

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    27. Re:Hardly newsworthy by Electricity+Likes+Me · · Score: 1

      Why? Assume that everyone in the world bought nothing but Apple computers and they all ran Linux on them. Why would Apple be unhappy with that?

      Apple does not sell OSes, the OS is a way to sell their hardware. They see themselves as being in the same business as Dell more than Microsoft.

      Certainly that situation would still be quite profitable for Apple but the desire would be overwhelming to charge for the entire stack: hardware, OS, Applications, media, online storage, the list goes on. The App Store model is very profitable. In fact, Apple is already very well established in this arena for iOS devices. They aren't exactly going out of their way to open up the boot loaders on iPhones and iPads to allow for alternative OS's just to sell more hardware, otherwise they might as well sell them with Android preinstalled. With the App Store showing up in recent Mac OS X versions, one could argue that they are already going down this path for the desktop.

      Or to put it another way, investors look for growth, not success. There would be enormous numbers of power point slides putting dollar figures on something or another and pointing out how massive the potential profits are, how much it's an "untapped" market.

    28. Re:Hardly newsworthy by Frederico+Camara · · Score: 1

      Netbooks are not commonly known to have good hardware integration. It probably just has lots of BIOS bugs (doesn't follow specifications), and needs a specific firmware or driver to run graphics.

      I got two netbooks back home, both runs Ubuntu very well, thank you, I bought them last year. Video acceleration runs great, no hacks during boot needed.

      On the other partition, there is a Windows 7 installation refusing to update the graphics driver because I "accidentaly" uninstalled the shitty upgrade software from the vendor (along with lots of other pre-installed crapware). I tried the reference drivers but it refuses to install (really, it says I should use the vendor's shitty upgrade software).

      Probably in a few years, your wife's netbook could run only Linux, or other Free Software, as the drivers developers and vendor won't be supporting it anymore. No crazy hacks would get anything else to run on that machine.

    29. Re:Hardly newsworthy by rubycodez · · Score: 1

      not abusiveness at all, Apple sells an integrated hardware / software solution. Microsoft does not. if you want to run another OS Apple are under no obligation to even make that possible, 99.99% of mac buyers buy a mac to run OS. if you do want to run another OS, why pay the extra money for a Mac?

    30. Re:Hardly newsworthy by jbolden · · Score: 1

      No but the hybrid thing is the standard Intel integrated which Linux supports. I don't think Linux supports the hybrid but that's not specific to Apple hardware, that would apply to any notebook with both integrated and discrete graphics.

    31. Re:Hardly newsworthy by jbolden · · Score: 1

      The App Store model is very profitable.

      The App store is break even and even the gross is negligible retaliative to the cost of the hardware. App stores exist to allow people to trust their apps, which allows them to freely and cheaply add functionality to their phone which makes them want to use Apple hardware. Applications sell hardware for Apple, that's it. Long term this might become profitable the way music is now.

      They aren't exactly going out of their way to open up the boot loaders on iPhones and iPads to allow for alternative OS's just to sell more hardware

      ?? They don't have a problem with Linux for iPhone. They want support it, but they don't meaningfully object. As far as Android preinstalled, they don't have a problem with that either.

    32. Re:Hardly newsworthy by jbolden · · Score: 1

      Or to put it another way, investors look for growth, not success.

      Depends. Investors like success too. High profitable companies do quite well. Growth gets you a high P/E. Success gets you a high E.

    33. Re:Hardly newsworthy by Em+Adespoton · · Score: 1

      Linux doesn't exactly have a reputation for working well on brand-new hardware. The new MacBooks only came out a couple months ago, give Linux some time!

      Linux runs just fine on many types of brand new machines, especially if they have Intel video. However, Mac hardware has often been more problematic than others..

      I think you'll find that actual new *hardware* takes as long for Linux support no matter what it is... unless it's what the people writing the support have upgraded to, in which case it gets support pretty quickly. Outside of Apple, new *systems* often support Linux right out of the box because the hardware inside is already in use in other systems, and so has had time to have the software kinks worked out. Since Apple usually pushes new components in their new systems (especially the case here), it often takes a while for some distributions to incorporate the software updates. However, the linux support is usually there already; it just hasn't been integrated into the distro-of-choice because nobody's had the need to do it -- and won't until some integrater or commercial entity gets some of the Apple hardware and decides to support it.

    34. Re:Hardly newsworthy by robmv · · Score: 1

      Sorry, the automatic fanboy response that Apple can do anything they want with your hardware is not valid. Apple officially support running other OSs (see Boot Camp). And you are not the only kind of Mac user out there. There are multiplatform developers that want to run Windows and Linux on their hardware too in order to test their applications. There are people that prefer OS X, but need Windows to run business applications. Disabling a hardware feature intentionally for other OSs is wrong. Apple has no obligation to give you drivers for them, but it has no right power down them intentionally

    35. Re:Hardly newsworthy by Jonner · · Score: 1

      Linux doesn't exactly have a reputation for working well on brand-new hardware. The new MacBooks only came out a couple months ago, give Linux some time!

      Linux runs just fine on many types of brand new machines, especially if they have Intel video. However, Mac hardware has often been more problematic than others..

      I think you'll find that actual new *hardware* takes as long for Linux support no matter what it is... unless it's what the people writing the support have upgraded to, in which case it gets support pretty quickly. Outside of Apple, new *systems* often support Linux right out of the box because the hardware inside is already in use in other systems, and so has had time to have the software kinks worked out. Since Apple usually pushes new components in their new systems (especially the case here), it often takes a while for some distributions to incorporate the software updates. However, the linux support is usually there already; it just hasn't been integrated into the distro-of-choice because nobody's had the need to do it -- and won't until some integrater or commercial entity gets some of the Apple hardware and decides to support it.

      Without doing an extensive survey, neither of us can make universal statements about all new PCs. However, some PC vendors like System76 and Zareason specialize in GNU/Linux systems. Some major PC vendors like Dell provide some support for Linux and even occasionally sell machines with it installed. Apple provides no support for GNU/Linux. In fact, any OS other than OSX is a second class citizen on Apple hardware and the machine sometimes feels actively hostile other systems. Even Windows, which Apple officially supports, cannot use all the same hardware capabilities that OSX can such as hybrid graphics.

      This shouldn't be surprising to anyone familiar with Apple's business model. It is foolish for anyone to buy new Apple hardware primarliy to run anything other than the OS it comes with. The only reason I am running GNU/Linux on an Apple machine is that I had the choice of using a mostly excellent machine for no cost to me vs. paying for something myself. Even then, I seriously considered buying my own.

    36. Re:Hardly newsworthy by c.r.o.c.o · · Score: 1

      I took a look at zareason.com and quite frankly their laptops are horribly overpriced. If you want a laptop that does NOT come with a Windows license you're much better off with a Sager from one of their many retailers like Malibal (US) or Reflex Notebooks (Canada). No, they do not come preinstalled with Linux, but for the cost difference I can waste an entire day figuring things out.

      Spec an identical Sager to a Zareason on Malibal's website, and you'll see what I mean. Each of Zareason's offerings is at least $2-300 too much.

    37. Re:Hardly newsworthy by rubycodez · · Score: 1

      That is not a fanboy response, it is reality. Apple is under no obligatino to support any other OS. Boot Camp is touted as being able to *boot* Microsoft Windows, read your link. That does not mean they support Windows, and indeed some features and even keyboard functions don't work under Windows, and drivers for certain features don't exist. Apple could indeed disable the ability to run Windows altogether, it's their choice if it costs them too many resources to even have Boot Camp. There is no essential business program in use by 95% of people that can't be done under MacOSX, the Microsoft Office suite runs, Oracle clients & dbms run, etc.

      I speak as someone who is forced to use OSX at work, it is inferior to a good Linux desktop in its UI design. The UI has become too bloated, an basic features like taking a screen or window shot require abnormal complicated actions under OSX compared to a good linux desktop.

  4. NEWS Flash!! by JWW · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Linux doesn't work completely on brand new hardware!!

    This is totally shocking to me. This has only been a problem since the 90's.

    1. Re:NEWS Flash!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Exactly... I wonder how well OS X worked the first time Apple ran it on this hardware. I bet it didn't even boot.

    2. Re:NEWS Flash!! by TechyImmigrant · · Score: 1

      Linux doesn't work completely on brand new hardware!!

      It works great on our hardware. We get Linux working on it before we release it. We push the support into the kernel and GCC and binutils and all the other stuff before it becomes an issue.

      Apple are hardly going to be focusing on cleaning up Linux's issues.

      --
      I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
    3. Re:NEWS Flash!! by JWW · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Exactly... I wonder how well OS X worked the first time Apple ran it on this hardware. I bet it didn't even boot.

      I know you're joking, but the corollary here would actually be how good OS X would work on hardware tuned specifically for Linux. The answer to that would likely be "very poorly" as well.

    4. Re:NEWS Flash!! by sjames · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I think the real news is that Linux does as well as it does on new hardware that is designed and tested for other OSes. A good sidebar is how quickly any deficiencies get fixed up.

    5. Re:NEWS Flash!! by elfprince13 · · Score: 1

      I came here to say exactly this. I have a late 2008 Macbook Pro and Ubuntu works flawlessly out of the box. But it took at least 2 years to get to that point. It worked reasonably well on day 1, but needed the sort of hobbyist futzing that should be expected for someone running Linux on new hardware.

    6. Re:NEWS Flash!! by gl4ss · · Score: 1

      that's bullshit. in '90s new hw had support very fast. now it seems it's never. maybe that's because there's actually more hw out now.

      for some weird reason, yes, really, that was the case. you see at one point in life I was sporting a 3dfx voodoo card - now imagine that they had indeed bothered to write glide drivers for linux. at the same time I was sporting an isdn card too - the windows drivers were actually a dialer that would dial up to germany(long distance, international) to fetch the actual windows tcp/ip drivers and were a real bitch to set up - on linux all you had to do was to read a howto, possibly recompile the kernel and then it just worked.

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    7. Re:NEWS Flash!! by gl4ss · · Score: 1

      (oh and the '90s.. everything that had docs for programming it under the dos was pretty easy for other people to write linux drivers for)

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    8. Re:NEWS Flash!! by aristotle-dude · · Score: 1

      Exactly... I wonder how well OS X worked the first time Apple ran it on this hardware. I bet it didn't even boot.

      Right, because Apple would never build multiple iterations of prototypes and write the drivers as they went along?

      --
      Jesus was a compassionate social conservative who called individuals to sin no more.
    9. Re:NEWS Flash!! by VortexCortex · · Score: 1

      Blame the manufacturer. I bought a brand new Toshiba laptop, and the finger print reader and wifi didn't work out of the box on Linux -- Everything else did. I called Toshiba Support, they routed me to the company that is actually MAKING THE OPEN SOURCE DRIVERS for those things. I downloaded the sources and compiled & installed via simple "./configure & make & make install". The kernel (& headers) were updated, so I had to recompile this driver about three weeks later, same one-liner. A month after that, the drivers were supported by the kernel, no more compiling each kernel update. Sure, it's not what every user should have to go through -- The drivers should have been pre-released -- but it is getting better (with SOME hardware vendors). It's the price of using Linux on brand new hardware (w/o paying a premium for ZaReason stuff that I know works).

      It's like everyone bitching about system requirements for games. Yeah, it sucks, computers should be so much easier to use -- I'm working toward this end in my projects, it's just always more expensive to do the right thing than the quick thing; However, it's not like you have to be a rocket surgeon to actually use Linux nowadays.

    10. Re:NEWS Flash!! by Samizdata · · Score: 1

      Not entirely so much. Still waiting for better support of the HD3000 in my netbook, frankly. Acceleration might be nice.

      --
      It's not the years, honey, it's the mileage. - Colonel Henry Walton Jones, Jr., Ph.D.
  5. And next by Dunbal · · Score: 4, Funny

    Let's trash linux a little more by complaining how this Ubuntu DVD fails to load on this sundial. There you have it, linux can't even run on one of the most primitive time-keeping devices. It must suck.

    --
    Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    1. Re:And next by Amouth · · Score: 5, Funny

      That isn't linux's fault, it's Ubuntu's. Slackware will run just fine on your sundial.

      --
      '...if only "Jumping to a Conclusion" was an event in the Olympics.'
    2. Re:And next by angryfirelord · · Score: 2

      Don't worry, I'm sure NetBSD support it.

    3. Re:And next by ThatsNotPudding · · Score: 1

      There you have it, linux can't even run on one of the most primitive time-keeping devices. It must suck.

      With Gentoo, you first have to build the sundial...

    4. Re:And next by Darinbob · · Score: 4, Funny

      My NetBSD install CD caught fire in my toaster. Still waiting for a patch.

    5. Re:And next by TheSpoom · · Score: 2

      Pffft, Slackware. I run Gentoo on my sundial. Now it tells time 377.4% faster.

      --
      It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
      - E. Debs
    6. Re:And next by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      Yeah, sure, I tried Slackware on my sundial, but there is a problem. It only works during the day, it totally crashes the system come nightfall.

      I am using OpenBSD on that sundial right now and it is dark here.

    7. Re:And next by systemeng · · Score: 1

      Untar in this context simplym means heating up the sundial with a giant magnifying glass and hoping the tar runs off . .

    8. Re:And next by rubycodez · · Score: 1

      silly guy, look in your toaster slot. it has heating elements on BOTH SIDES, yes? bet you put a *single sided* CD in there, didn't you? think it through next time, ok?

    9. Re:And next by jonwil · · Score: 1

      Gentoo should also work. Although it will probably take so long to compile everything that the sun will have died before it finishes, rendering your sundial useless.

    10. Re:And next by Dracophile · · Score: 1

      Would not buy again...

      --
      Athy, athier, athiest.
    11. Re:And next by IBitOBear · · Score: 1

      All linuxes work on all sundials as long as you order the real physical media, or burn a copy to CD for installation.

      The fact that sundials will not install over the internet is an inherent standards compliance issue.

      (To install linux on a sundial, tape the CD to the virtical armature, note inhanced open-standards compliant shadow. Some distros have a little reflective logo sticker on the disk that will shine a watermark back onto the display face. That is a high-performance feature limited to particular manufactureres.)

      --
      Innocent people shouldn't be forced to pay for inferior software development.
      --"Code Complete" Microsoft Press
  6. Why run Linux on a MacBook by compmas2 · · Score: 1

    Why would you run Linux on a MacBook? Just but a cheap non-apple laptop or run Linux in a virtual machine if you need it.

    1. Re:Why run Linux on a MacBook by Overzeetop · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The same reason you would run Windows on a MacBook. If the thing that matters most to you is the screen there are precious few other options in the market, even if you ignore the high resolution. Just finding an IPS laptop that has basic features and doesn't require a furniture dolly to move is hard to find. Also, if you work in both OSX and Linux environments, you are going to want a MacBook. The cases are not numerous, but they're out there.

      --
      Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
    2. Re:Why run Linux on a MacBook by kamapuaa · · Score: 1

      Because having Apple hardware has hipster cred, and then when people see the Apple hardware with Linux running on it, you'll have nerd cred. So if you really want to set yourself apart as a cool guy who's good at computers, Linux on a Mac is the way to go.

      --
      Slashdot: providing anti-social weirdos a soapbox, since 1997.
    3. Re:Why run Linux on a MacBook by l3v1 · · Score: 1

      "Try finding that in a cheap, sub-$1000 laptop)."

      So, sub-$1000 you say? Then I'm saying: Hello, sunshine! Time to wake up! Seriously, where in the solar system are you getting a retina macbook pro for less than $1000?

      --
      I am putting myself to the fullest possible use, which is all I can think that any conscious entity can ever hope to do.
    4. Re:Why run Linux on a MacBook by hobarrera · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Could you please link to a cheap non-apple laptop with a 2880x1800 display? Thanks!

    5. Re:Why run Linux on a MacBook by yet-another-lobbyist · · Score: 1

      I think he/she says "sub-$1000 laptop" because GP suggested to try getting all that stuff in a "cheap non-apple laptop" (and not because he/she thinks the MBP is less than $1000).

    6. Re:Why run Linux on a MacBook by jrminter · · Score: 1

      I couldn't get the latest Ubuntu disk to boot on mine (Summer 2009). Any tips?

  7. Tell me why... by ak_hepcat · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It is so shocking to think that an operating system doesn't work well on hardware for which no drivers have yet been written?

    And yes, folks have been working on this. It's all up on the G+.

    But seriously, until somebody is paid to write the drivers prior to hardware release, why expect it to work?

    --
    Support FSF: Stop thinking with your wallet, and think with your imagination. (cc/non-commercial)
    1. Re:Tell me why... by jbolden · · Score: 1

      The video driver for Linux is out: http://www.nvidia.com/object/linux-display-amd64-295.59-driver.html

      Drivers are not the problem.

    2. Re:Tell me why... by hobarrera · · Score: 1

      Because most hardware isn't totally new. The processor isn't, the GPU isn't, it's just a matter of how they've been put together this time.
      Linux works out-of-the-box on plenty of new laptop models as soon as they come out, because not every model means totally new hardware.

    3. Re:Tell me why... by swillden · · Score: 1

      And yes, folks have been working on this. It's all up on the G+.

      What G+ page?

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    4. Re:Tell me why... by VortexCortex · · Score: 1

      But seriously, until somebody is paid to write the drivers prior to hardware release, why expect it to work?

      I think the fact they bought what they bought, and did what they did is plenty to proceed with deductive reasoning. Given these facts, I propose the answer is simply: Ignorance.
      ( The truth never means to be offensive ).

    5. Re:Tell me why... by amorsen · · Score: 1

      Drivers ARE the problem. nVidia wants to run the whole graphics driver show with no interference from the kernel. However, this laptop (and many others this year) has TWO video cards which can drive the same display. Two drivers communicating is reasonably easy if they both let the kernel decide when they each get to play. Alas, no such luck with nVidia.

      --
      Finally! A year of moderation! Ready for 2019?
    6. Re:Tell me why... by jbolden · · Score: 1

      OK that makes sense. But using the discrete graphics should allow for excellent video and worse battery life (about an hour). Were that the only problem the impact would be battery life only not all the other issues.

  8. You spent $3000 on a laptop to run linux by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    You spent $3000 on a laptop to run linux. You are a strange person.

    1. Re:You spent $3000 on a laptop to run linux by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      You spent $3000 on a laptop to run linux. You are a strange person.

      It makes perfect sense. If you're going to spend that much on a laptop, you really want the best operating system to go along with it.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    2. Re:You spent $3000 on a laptop to run linux by mkdx · · Score: 1

      Maybe hard to believe for you, but Linux is good OS and many prefer it over OSX. Not sure why OSX on the laptop makes the $3000 purchase a normal one.

    3. Re:You spent $3000 on a laptop to run linux by spauldo · · Score: 1

      Why is that strange?

      When my old laptop died I was considering buying a beefed up Thinkpad setup that would have run me about $3500. It would have spent 99% of its time in Linux.

      I didn't because replacing the north foundation on my house and getting a new roof is a bit more important. I did spend ~$1300 on my current Thinkpad, which spends 99% of its time in Linux.

      They way I figure it, Linux users probably care more about their hardware than the average PC or Mac user.

      --
      Those who can't do, teach. Those who can't teach either, do tech support.
    4. Re:You spent $3000 on a laptop to run linux by glitch0 · · Score: 1

      weird, because the base macbook pro retina is $2k not $3k and has some pretty sick specs at that base price (latest i7, latest nvidia GPU, 8gb 1600Mhz ddr3, 2880*1800 IPS display). Please, show me a laptop with those specs for less money. I'd love to buy one.

      Some people want good hardware and want to run linux. it's not that difficult. Personally I'd just use parallels in OS X but that's my choice. Some people prefer a native install, especially if they plan to fill up the RAM to it's max. But then again, even if the retina MBP starts paging, it's ssd can do 400MB/s read/write speed so it's not gonna make your computer sluggish like paging with a hdd would.

      --
      -Glitch "We all know Linux is great...it does infinite loops in 5 seconds." - Linus Torvalds
  9. Fusion is your Friend by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    Why waste so much time/effort with a BOS install? Run it in VMware Fusion full-screen like I do. Pick your battles, my friends.

    1. Re:Fusion is your Friend by neoshroom · · Score: 2

      Even better run it in the new VMWare Fusion Tech Preview, which includes 3D support for Linux and is free till October.

      http://communities.vmware.com/community/vmtn/beta/fusiontp2012

      __

      --
      Big apple, new Yorik, undig it, something's unrotting in Edenmark.
    2. Re:Fusion is your Friend by RocketRabbit · · Score: 2

      Even better just use VirtualBox, which is free as in beer, and has 3D support for Linux.

  10. Re:Not just the retina macbook pro by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 4, Insightful

    But also all devices made by Samsung, LG, and HT....

    But saying that doesn't draw any attention - mentioning Apple does. It's like when people talk about Foxconn. Nobody mentions they make stuff for HP, Dell, Lenovo, and others - they only mention the Apple connection.

    --
    #DeleteChrome
  11. Re:hybrid graphics support by crow · · Score: 1

    Yes, I heard that there was some sort of solution for my ThinkPad, but I gave up trying to get it to work. I run the nVidia graphics all the time, which cuts down on the battery life, but makes everything simpler.

    I also find it frustrating that the firmware doesn't have graphics modes for the native screen resolution or standard 1080p screens, making it difficult to set up the correct console modes and boot screen (using grub2, at least).

    Maybe now that Apple is using hybrid graphics, there will be more attention paid to it in the Linux community, which is a good thing. Of course, much of the problem is that we're dealing with binary driver blobs that don't always play well with each other.

  12. Translation by Nexion · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Don't buy a Mac.

    Don't get me wrong fan boys... Apple does make good gear, and it isn't Apple's fault it doesn't run Linux all that well on this particular device. However despite having a good operating system for a workstation I'm just not a big fan of OSX at home. I use Linux primarily at work and I am quite happy with it. Given the choice between Windows and OSX at work it will be OSX every time. However, I DO have a better choice in workstation OS that more closely mirrors our production servers on which to develop software.

    I also don't care much for Apple as a company. I find Microsoft more trustworthy, and that really does say quite a bit.

    It would be nice if Apple contributed to Linux. I know that is asking a lot of them as they throughly enjoy tieing two products together by virtue of license and copyright law. It is something they are unfortunately unlikely to change and as a result I try to avoid purchasing their hardware. Much like I will try to avoid any "secure boot" BIOS gear in the future.

    1. Re:Translation by bored_engineer · · Score: 2

      They do contribute to common bits, such as Cups. After a lot of yelling, they contributed webkit improvements to khtml. They also released a caldav server under the apache license.

    2. Re:Translation by jbolden · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It would be nice if Apple contributed to Linux.

      They do. Their most notable contribution was all the work on the PPC version of gcc which is the reason Linux runs so well on XBox.

      Most of their major open source projects do run on Linux today though: http://www.macosforge.org/

    3. Re:Translation by Nexion · · Score: 2

      To both bored_engineer and you I would like to say that I stand corrected.

      However I think the PPC and caldav efforts seem a bit self serving at first glance, but I am quite thankful to any company who contributes to OSS.

      I guess I was hinting at anything they might have contributed to make Linux run well on this new device prior to release. Yes, I'm quite aware that would be angelic of Apple to do so, and it is way over the top to ask them to do so. Does anyone know if they made information availible to the community to facilitate non-Apple OSS developers attempting to write nessisary drivers for this new device? Even that would be highly commendable.

    4. Re:Translation by Nexion · · Score: 1

      LOL, not with this slashdot UID. ;)

    5. Re:Translation by Nexion · · Score: 1

      It says more about your own personal bias than it does about either company.

      True

      Like gcc, llvm, samba, cups, apache, etc. Hell, even Chrome has a ton of Apple code in it.

      Already conceded (http://apple.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3053337&cid=41015277).

      More nonsense. Exactly what products are they tying together through copyright law and licensing? They tie the products together through functionality and integration.

      And yet you trust MS more, even though they are the ones pushing secure boot to prevent you from installing Linux on a brand name PC? Apple actually advertises support for running competitors OSs on their hardware.

      Apple is so much better! I think I'm going to go out an by a copy of OSX and run it on my custom built PC! Oh wait, that is right... it is tied to apple hardware and enforced with licensing and copyright. Just ask olde Psystar who tried to circumvent the restriction and found themselves in court over it. Can anyone tell me if you can buy a Mac without OSX and get some of the price knocked off? I don't think you were able to before, but maybe Apple saw the error of their ways. Microsoft may be attempting to lock PCs to their OS, but sort of behavior is nothing new to Apple. Not nonsense, Macs and OSX are tied together at time of purchase.

    6. Re:Translation by Noughmad · · Score: 1

      You mean you were on /. before Microsoft was evil?

      --
      PlusFive Slashdot reader for Android. Can post comments.
    7. Re:Translation by amorsen · · Score: 1

      The relationship between Apple and the GCC project has been rather strained. Much like the Webkit situation really, except Apple is moving to LLVM to get rid of GCC.

      --
      Finally! A year of moderation! Ready for 2019?
    8. Re:Translation by jbolden · · Score: 1

      Thank you for responding. And well yeah the GCC stuff was meant to be self serving. It turned out not to be. Right after they really got GCC working well on PPC they got into a fight with IBM over IBM refocusing the PPC line on gaming systems. They jumped to Intel processors and Sony as well as the game companies for XBox and Playstation were the ones that really benefited from the work. And in the last few years GCC on power. But that's open source you benefit from people who never meant to help you, scratch your own itch and in doing so help people you never intended to benefit.

      Caldev, Webkit.. those are classic donations. Building something for the whole community.

      Apple got a bad rep from the FSF not really understanding Apple culture and exaggerating.

    9. Re:Translation by jbolden · · Score: 1

      Well yeah, they dumped GCC a long time ago. That being said they wrote a huge percentage of the GCC for PPC. And Apple moved to LLVM a while back.

    10. Re:Translation by BigFootApe · · Score: 1

      Webkit had to be contributed to comply with the licensing of KHTML.

    11. Re:Translation by jbolden · · Score: 1

      Well yes, but what's wrong with Apple essentially taking the lead for a decade on a major open source project under the GPL?

    12. Re:Translation by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      However I think the PPC and caldav efforts seem a bit self serving at first glance,

      I have this strange feeling that most people and companies who contribute to most open source projects are a bit self serving. I'm pretty sure Linus runs Linux, for example. And Red Hat, well, they sell it!

    13. Re:Translation by Capsaicin · · Score: 1

      Don't buy a Mac.

      Translation: If you want to run linux on it, don't buy a Mac (or any other machine for that matter) with the brand-new latest diddly-hey-whatzit technology until such time as you know that the drivers for said tech have been worked out. Which they will be. Duh!

      However, I DO have a better choice in workstation OS that more closely mirrors our production servers on which to develop software.

      Which is the reason I run linux as a Parallels partition on the iMac at home. And surely at home is where OSX should be?!

      We had a linux box and the iMac at home, but my wife & my boys voted with their feet (or fingers) ... no prizes for guessing which way. When the linux box died it was it was replaced with a virtual one ... no probs at all. At work it's mainly linux though I've a Windows box to my right and a macbook to my left %-) neither of which get that much use here ... especially not the one to my right!

      --
      Better to be despised for too anxious apprehensions, than ruined by too confident a security. --Edmund Burke
  13. What a shame by frovingslosh · · Score: 4, Funny

    That's too bad, 'cause, like most people, I was looking forward to buying overpriced hardware bundled with an expensive operating system and then just running free open source software on it instead.

    --
    I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
    1. Re:What a shame by geek · · Score: 1

      That's too bad, 'cause, like most people, I was looking forward to buying overpriced hardware bundled with an expensive operating system and then just running free open source software on it instead.

      OS X is 20$. I'd hardly call that "an expensive operating system"

      You're clearly blinded by your own irrational hatred.

    2. Re:What a shame by the_humeister · · Score: 4, Informative

      It is if you aren't legally allowed to run it on anything other than Mac hardware. The $20 you pay is technically the upgrade price since the actual price has been rolled into the cost of the hardware.

    3. Re:What a shame by Ecuador · · Score: 1

      Hmm, Mountain Lion is $19.99 to upgrade from my Lion installation. And it represents about 1 year of additional development. Other companies would simply call it a "service pack" and give it away for free. Also, other companies give me the choice of being able to use their software on an older OS version if I don't want to pony up an "upgrade" fee every 1-2 years.
      But not Apple.
      I was sort of getting used to Leopard when they demanded an upgrade fee ($29 IIRC) for Snow Leopard if I still wanted to run the current Xcode versions. And I started to get used to Snow Leopard, it actually fixed some things (the definition of a Service Pack), but then they extorted another $29 to upgrade me to Lion. And that is when they actually broke a lot of things, it became so hard to use on my 3-monitor workstation, that I re-installed Snow Leopard on my Mac Pro and got a Mac Mini with Lion so that I can keep developing on my workstation and have the Mac Mini running the latest Xcode for debugging on the device.
      So OS X is not $20. It is closer to $20 per year and in some cases (see above) it can actually cost you more than $1000 so that you can afford not to "upgrade" your main workstation... I can't wait for Apple to "let" (force) me pay to run on my Mac Pro the same OS as my Ipad - woohoo!

      --
      Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. Polar Scope Align for iOS
    4. Re:What a shame by zicAU · · Score: 1

      Replying to remove accidental moderation.

    5. Re:What a shame by the_humeister · · Score: 1

      It hasn't been "rolled into the cost of the hardware." Proof please. The software is a giveaway to help sell the hardware, the area they actually make money.

      The proof is not being able to buy Mac hardware from Apple without the OS. Then compare as similarly equipped hardware from other vendors and see what the price difference is.

      The fucking operating system is non-serialized. I can give it to a hundred people and Apple would never know because frankly, they don't give a shit.

      Jus because you can doesn't mean it's legal or that they don't care. See Psystar.

      Quit trying to rationalize a defenseless and baseless lie. The OS is free with the hardware and 20$ FOR A FULL VERSION OF THE OS when you wish to upgrade. Get the fuck over it.

      My, did Bill Gates molest you or something?

    6. Re:What a shame by deergomoo · · Score: 1

      Okay, this argument that an OS X point release is equivalent to a service pack is bullshit. New functionality, new bundled applications, rewriting and reworking underlying technologies != bug fixes and patches. The OS X 10.x.y upgrades are the equivalent of service packs, just smaller and more frequent.

    7. Re:What a shame by spauldo · · Score: 1

      First you say:

      It hasn't been "rolled into the cost of the hardware." Proof please.

      Then you say:

      The software is a giveaway to help sell the hardware, the area they actually make money.

      So, you answered your own question?

      It costs money to create and maintain OSX. The money comes from their hardware sales, so yes, the cost is rolled into the cost of the hardware.

      --
      Those who can't do, teach. Those who can't teach either, do tech support.
  14. I would have to start with "Why?" by MadCow42 · · Score: 3, Informative

    I have the new Retina MBP... and it's a fantastic machine. But WHY would you buy it just to install Linux on it anyway? It's a very expensive computer for that - you can get other laptops with similar specs (other than the display, yes) for a lot less. In almost all cases I'd suspect that people want to use both OSX and Linux - and in that case, I'd highly suggest running Linux in a virtual machine anyway (Parallels/VMWare).

    Sure it'd be nice to have a pure dual boot for Linux, but until drivers are written and fine tuned for that specific platform it will do just fine.

    I use Parallels for that, and for running WinXP (believe it or not) for one old app I need. The new MBP is so fast that I can cold-boot WinXP in 3 seconds! - making it a breeze to get to the one app I need when I need it.

    MadCow.

    --
    I used to have a sig, but I set it free and it never came back.
    1. Re:I would have to start with "Why?" by stor · · Score: 2

      > I have the new Retina MBP... and it's a fantastic machine. But WHY would you buy it just to install Linux on it anyway?

      Ultra-res xterminals.

      --
      "Yeah well there's a lot of stuff that should be, but isn't"
  15. Instead of Linux laptop by Culture20 · · Score: 5, Funny

    Package contained a retina MacBook pro. Would not buy again.

    1. Re:Instead of Linux laptop by nazrhyn · · Score: 1

      As if anyone here didn't already know: http://xkcd.com/325/

  16. In other shocking news: by alphax45 · · Score: 1

    The Ford engine doesn't fit well into my Chevy car. Come on people! Of course Apple isn't going to make their hardware work well with Linux. They have no need to.

    --
    K Man
    1. Re:In other shocking news: by NJRoadfan · · Score: 2

      How well does it run Windows 7 with Boot Camp?

    2. Re:In other shocking news: by IntlHarvester · · Score: 1

      ArsTechnica tried it - it works but Windows' scaling can be janky. They didn't test battery life, but judging by my plain old MBP, it's probably worse.

      http://arstechnica.com/apple/2012/07/windows-and-os-x-boot-camp-running-redmond-at-retina-resolution/

      --
      Business. Numbers. Money. People. Computer World.
  17. Re:Expensive laptop, Free OS!! by kaws · · Score: 1

    I find that it's annoying that they got rid of the ethernet port but it's understandable. Have you seen how thin that thing is? Ethernet is too big for thin. In fact, with older mbp designes it barely fits.

  18. Keep reading! Linux works fine on this system by FranTaylor · · Score: 1

    The article also states that Linux runs quite well indeed in a VMware virtual machine.

    If you install Fedora 17, you can even enjoy hardware- assisted 3-D graphics.

    Pop the virtual machine into full screen mode and you might as well be running Linux on the bare metal, practically speaking there is no difference.

  19. Why in gods name by future+assassin · · Score: 1

    would you want to hurt that little Linux distro? Have you no shame?

    --
    by TheSpoom (715771) Uncaring Linux user here. I have nothing to add to this but please continue. *munches popcorn*
  20. Re:Keep reading! Linux works fine on this system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Except for the fact that you're actually running all of OS X's overhead in addition to Linux, and that you don't have full control over /dev, and that certain key commands are intercepted by OS X so you can't actually pass them, and the fact that you have to fake a hard drive and send all your IO through convoluted loops that slow down the system even more...

    Yeah, except for all that, it's just like running natively!

  21. Video RAMM matters more than screen resolution by SplashMyBandit · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Apple currently has the high resolution screens. Too bad you can only get 1GB of video RAM on the MacBook Pros though. What is the point of having such a high resolution screen if you run out of VRAM for textures etc? I'm thinking about a Retina Mac to replace my existing Mac but at the lack of video ramm is putting me off.

    Why does this matter? Because I'm developing a cross-platform OpenGL flight simulator and I would like to have plenty of Video Ram to go around (many flight sim gamers have very high end Windows rigs with 2-4GB of Video RAM, and this is my target [TBH, I don't care about those who want to game on less capable hardware - profit limiting I know, but I'm writing the sim for myself first and foremost and I have great hardware that is poorly utilized by many mainstream games]).

    So, my point is while Apple has a lovely display resolution that will probably soon be matched by others. Other laptop manufacturers (eg. HP) produce machines with 2 GB of Video RAM, which is unlikely to be matched by Apple (none of their latops have more than 1 GB of RAM, Apple don't seem to be interested in trely powerful users of laptops - I guess that's what they have the Mac Pro for - but it doesn't help folks like me).

    1. Re:Video RAMM matters more than screen resolution by PopeRatzo · · Score: 3, Funny

      TBH, I don't care about those who want to game on less capable hardware

      Then why are you concerned about using a Macbook?

      If all they're going to offer with the super-duper Retina display is 1gb RAM, then just ignore the platform. Who's going to play flight simulator on a Macbook?

      Now if you were developing an anal sex simulator, then you'd want to make sure it ran on Apple hardware.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    2. Re:Video RAMM matters more than screen resolution by gstoddart · · Score: 5, Insightful

      First you say ...

      TBH, I don't care about those who want to game on less capable hardware - profit limiting I know, but I'm writing the sim for myself first and foremost and I have great hardware that is poorly utilized by many mainstream games

      And then you say ...

      Apple don't seem to be interested in trely powerful users of laptops - I guess that's what they have the Mac Pro for - but it doesn't help folks like me

      So, it's ok if you want to ignore people with smaller systems, but it's a bad thing that Apple isn't interested in selling niche devices to people like you?

      They're not interested in chasing "trely powerful users of laptops" -- they're interested in chasing as many people as possible. You likely represent a tiny fraction of the market.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    3. Re:Video RAMM matters more than screen resolution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      While I'm not currently a Mac user, for reasons of economic justification or lack thereof as the case may be. I do wonder about the possibility of running video cards externally through the Thunderbolt port with the monitor daisy chained on the other end. I've seen external enclosures that seem to imply that not only is that possible but someone has beat me to the punch. They have PCI-E slots (plural) in an external enclosure with a Thunderbolt connector. That could solve the problem right there. At least it would if the Macbook Pro didn't already set you back $2500. If you'd gotten a Windows laptop of some type you'd have a similar machine with lower resolution of course but it would have run you almost $1000 less.

    4. Re:Video RAMM matters more than screen resolution by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 5, Funny

      Now if you were developing an anal sex simulator, then you'd want to make sure it ran on Apple hardware.

      You can't, at least not with iOS - remember that clause in developer license agreement that forbids products directly competing with ones offered by Apple?

    5. Re:Video RAMM matters more than screen resolution by Voyager529 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      So, my point is while Apple has a lovely display resolution that will probably soon be matched by others. Other laptop manufacturers (eg. HP) produce machines with 2 GB of Video RAM, which is unlikely to be matched by Apple (none of their latops have more than 1 GB of RAM, Apple don't seem to be interested in trely powerful users of laptops - I guess that's what they have the Mac Pro for - but it doesn't help folks like me).

      In most cases, higher quantities of VRAM tend to be a part of beefier graphic chipsets. In basically every one of *those* cases, beefier GPUs sit on the same motherboard as beefier CPUs. In every one of *those* units, you end up with extra runs of copper and beefier fan motors to keep them cool. Add all of that together, and you end up with a laptop that is powerful, but is large, heavy, and lacks battery life. There's definitely a market for this; Alienware, Origin, and Falcon Northwest all pay their bills based on catering to that market. HP has a wide enough product line that they can throw enough Jell-O at basically any wall and some of it will ultimately stick.

      Apple, on the other hand, seems to have no desire to cater to people who are alright with a laptop that has only an hour of battery life and weighs 7 pounds. My best guess is that they feel that even having a monster-sized performance laptop would be impossible to make appear sexy, but I'm certain the Apple folk are aware of the Alienware/Origin market and have chosen not to attempt to cater to them. I've yet to meet a Macbook user who expressed unhappiness with their older graphics chipset, or one who was sufficiently unhappy as to express willingness to sacrifice half of their 2.5-hour battery life for the added performance. Ratcheting back the resolution and easing the antialiasing to 2X will get acceptable performance from most games Mac users are likely to play. After Effects comps of any consequence are generally rendered overnight, when the difference between 4 hour render times and 6 hour render times are effectively meaningless. Now granted, I have an Origin monster of a laptop that gets less than an hour of battery life and I'm okay with that, but getting acceptable performance by bumping down graphics detail is a lot easier to do than squeaking out extra battery life when you have a CPU/GPU that eats through it very quickly.

    6. Re:Video RAMM matters more than screen resolution by RocketRabbit · · Score: 1

      "What is the point of having such a high resolution screen if you run out of VRAM for textures etc?"

      It's not for 3d gaming, it's for rendering your UI. There's no point in having a Retina screen for playing your 3d games. Makes much more sense to run them at a reduced resolution.

    7. Re:Video RAMM matters more than screen resolution by SplashMyBandit · · Score: 1

      > Then why are you concerned about using a Macbook?
      Because I want to use my Macbook to do a flight sim on my comfy lay-z-boy chair while outputting to my bigscreen TV. It would be nice if newer MacbookPros came with more video RAM.

    8. Re:Video RAMM matters more than screen resolution by SplashMyBandit · · Score: 1

      What you are missing is that the parent of my post was talking about how good the Retina display was. My point is that the Retina is overrated because despite the massive increase in pixels the VRAM of the MacBooks is actually lower than comparable-cost laptops from other manufacturers (eg. the HP Compaq line). I then gave an illustration of a particular use for more video RAM - a sim I'm developing. I'm sure there are other power users that actually need more laptop power than just rendering their Facebook page at higher resolution.

      > They're not interested in chasing "trely powerful users of laptops" -- they're interested in chasing as many people as possible
      Absolute bullshit - your argument is only true for PC makers. Apple are not interested in the masses at all, and even a casual examination of their history shows they never have been with Macs. They are interested in the high-end, high-margin segment that are willing to pay top dollar for good gear. This includes me. This is why I find their lack of video ram so suprising, hence my post.

    9. Re:Video RAMM matters more than screen resolution by SplashMyBandit · · Score: 2

      > Apple, on the other hand, seems to have no desire to cater to people who are alright with a laptop that has only an hour of battery life and weighs 7 pounds
      Actually I have a late 2008 17" MacBook Pro. It gets 7 hours on one chipset and about half that on another chipset. Apple ditching the power segment is very, very recent. This is why I made my post, what is the point of upping the resolution to a beautiful Retina display if the VRAM is not upped as well?

      With regard to battery life. Apple has the option that others do, and Apple itself has already done in my existing Macbook - have a low power graphics chipset for lightweight uses and a decent graphics chipset for those that don't want to wait overnight to get shit done and a battery life of an hour is fine (like me).

      Yes, I may be a niche user. It used to be Apple hardware was the choice of this niche. Now they have dropped the performance crown and I'll probably upgrade to an Elitebook with lots of Video Ram (and probably by the time I get one, a Retina display too). I'll miss OS X for sure, but since I've been using Linux for nearly two decades I'm sure I can 'hold my breath long enough' to go back.

      So, IMHO Apple were not clever to increase their Retina display while not having a corresponding increase in Video Ram.

    10. Re:Video RAMM matters more than screen resolution by SplashMyBandit · · Score: 1

      You do realize that for (multi-sampled) anti-aliasing, translucent blending, convolution effects etc you go through a lot of video RAM, yeah? By keeping the same amount of video RAM and increasing the resolution by a significant factor it means the application software and operating system will have worse performance as it swaps between video ram and main ram. This has nothing to do with 3D gaming (although I would like to point out that it would be helpful for my game).

      So what is the advantage of a lovely Retina display when the video ram-per-pixel is going down? How is this a good thing? What is wrong with me pointing out that it would have been better for Apple to increased video ram when they increased their resolution (since this is something Apple's competitors seem to be able to do) ?

      Everyone on Slashdot thinks that Mac users are in a reality distortion field, yet when I as a Mac user point out limitations in Apple products this is something wrong (despite the logic of what I'm saying being fairly straightfoward) ?

    11. Re:Video RAMM matters more than screen resolution by jbolden · · Score: 1

      Apple's belief is they have lost the gaming market. They don't make a gaming laptop. Interestingly enough when you get to laptops over $1k a nice sized percentage of the non Apple laptops that do sell are gaming. So gamers willing to drop $1k or more represent about 1/18th of Apple's sales in laptops. There just not setup for gamers.

    12. Re:Video RAMM matters more than screen resolution by jbolden · · Score: 1

      Yes, I may be a niche user. It used to be Apple hardware was the choice of this niche.

      When? When did Apple ever cater to gamers? I'm thinking the Apple 2 days was the last time they tried to compete for gamer's dollars.

    13. Re:Video RAMM matters more than screen resolution by SplashMyBandit · · Score: 1

      Not gamers per se, users who want a more powerful laptop for doing graphics, music, swizzy presentations etc. They require relatively good hardware (especially when compositing and doing effects on large images). So you are right, Apple were not aiming for gamers, but their hardware used to be relatively good for it anyway as a by-product of their actual target markets.

    14. Re:Video RAMM matters more than screen resolution by SplashMyBandit · · Score: 1

      Correct. Apple aren't targetting gamers, but they do target market segments (eg "multi-media") that just happens to be useful for gamers re-purposing their Macs. Unfortunately by increasing their screen resolution while not simultaneously increasing their video ram they aren't helping either market particularly much (gamers or those doing multimedia). Of course, that's just my opinion.

    15. Re:Video RAMM matters more than screen resolution by jbolden · · Score: 1

      What year? Sure they had stuff that was good for video but the beefy x86 systems were generally faster because games didn't take advantage of PPC.

    16. Re:Video RAMM matters more than screen resolution by jbolden · · Score: 1

      No by going with hardware based rendering and increased resolution the rMBP is amazing for multimedia. You can do pixel perfect video in 1/3rd of the screen. Of course for photo's the video memory is fine. Also don't forget you have 450 mb / sec hard drives. The problem with their setup is that it doesn't work well for creating in advance a large number of frames / textures and storing them on the video card but that's fine for anything but gaming.

    17. Re:Video RAMM matters more than screen resolution by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      Most people don't use a fraction of the VRAM they've already got.

    18. Re:Video RAMM matters more than screen resolution by CrackedButter · · Score: 1

      I think you're an exception in this case. Mac Pro for you ;-).

    19. Re:Video RAMM matters more than screen resolution by Sigg3.net · · Score: 1

      Lol. I support Apple users, and apart from the few who jailbreak or run Linux; they do exactly what they're told.

      They drink the coolaid. If Apple does it this way then it must be right.
      Even when it's shite and there's no way fixing it, it can't be Apple that's wrong.

        The difference between Apple and PC users, is that the latter still knows he has rights. I am amazed at what kind of crap an Appologist will put up with.

    20. Re:Video RAMM matters more than screen resolution by glitch0 · · Score: 2

      Just one correction. Mac laptops get 7 hours of battery life browsing the web (wifi on). And if you're doing something more CPU intensive you can still expect to get a minimum of 4 hours. So it's not just 1 hour of battery life vs 2.5 hours battery of life, it's 1 hours of battery life vs at least 4 hours of battery life. And that's 4 hours with the CPU pegged, usually much more since most of the time the CPU isn't pegged for long periods unless you're rendering or something.

      --
      -Glitch "We all know Linux is great...it does infinite loops in 5 seconds." - Linus Torvalds
  22. Re:I fear you've misunderstood, by BLToday · · Score: 1

    I think you have way bigger problems than removing the battery if you spill some liquid on a laptop. I've never been able to bring back a laptop after spilling coffee on it (twice now). And I don't know of anyone that has recover a laptop after liquid accident. My cousin just did that last month to his Thinkpad. Immediately removed the battery and used the rice trick, doesn't work.

  23. Re:This Just In: by tgibbs · · Score: 4, Informative

    It is flamebait because it makes blatantly false statement the Retina MBP is not in any sense "locked down." Apple does not block installation of 3rd party or open source software or operating systems on any of its desktop or laptop computers. So its merely a matter of an open source OS not yet having been tweaked to run perfectly on a new, and somewhat different, hardware design.

  24. Why? by donnacha · · Score: 1

    I love Linux but the Retina is probably the best laptop ever sold precisely because of the unusually high level of harmony between the top-notch hardware and the OS it was designed to run. That is the whole point of Macs - complete focus on the best possible user experience, and complete disregard of the opinions of zealots who call the lack of support for an entirely diffferent OS to be a "snafu".

    1. Re:Why? by donnacha · · Score: 1

      The clue is in the word "Retina". And, yes, you can get 16GB of RAM. I don't know about the graphics card, I stopped playing video games when I left school.

  25. Linux is [...] on the Retina MacBook Pro by Kaz+Kylheku · · Score: 1

    Great!

  26. Matt Garrett has Fedora running on one by Medievalist · · Score: 3, Informative

    See his blog post -

    http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/15948.html

    As for "why try to do it?" - well, probably because liking Apple hardware and high-res displays does not automatically create a liking for XNU/Darwin. Some people prefer Open Source.

  27. Well, speaking as a hipster by crazyjj · · Score: 5, Funny

    Why in the world would you even try to do it? What is the goal of this endeavour?

    When I first got into Mac, it was still a rare thing. And so that made me better than everyone else. I got to look down on PC users and call everyone who came after me poseurs. Then, as Mac's became more and more popular, I started noticing that EVERYONE was carrying them. I even saw people using them in Starbuck's, for Christ's sake (as I passed by the window on my way to an indie coffee shop that you've probably never heard of).

    This forced me to do something to set myself once more off from the pack, so that I might reaffirm my moral and intellectual superiority. Obviously, I couldn't go to Windows. So naturally I turned to Linux, and an obscure distro than only a few of us know about (if you have to ask which one, don't bother).

    It was perfect. Now when people saw I was using a Mac and asked me about it, I could tell them "Yeah, it's a Mac, but not the kind YOU'RE using" and blow off any subsequent questions with "I could tell you more, but you wouldn't get it." Once more, I was whole!

    I would talk more about it, but I've got to get to a Semertian Poetry reading. Not that I expect you to know what Semertian Poetry is.

    --
    What political party do you join when you don't like Bible-thumpers *or* hippies?
    1. Re:Well, speaking as a hipster by jo_ham · · Score: 1

      I would talk more about it, but I've got to get to a Semertian Poetry reading. Not that I expect you to know what Semertian Poetry is.

      "Oh, now that you've heard of its existence it's too mainstream for me now, so this is the last time I'm going".

    2. Re:Well, speaking as a hipster by Em+Adespoton · · Score: 1

      Long live the Quantum Poseur! You can either know who he is, or where he is, but not both.

    3. Re:Well, speaking as a hipster by AntEater · · Score: 1

      Bah! I installed Slackware on my Mac many years ago. You probably installed Ubuntu or Fedora like all the other linux sheep out there. Slackware rules but you probably wouldn't get it.

      --
      Alex, I'll take keybindings not used by Emacs for $400....
    4. Re:Well, speaking as a hipster by IBitOBear · · Score: 1

      I use Gentoo, that way every single binary is compiled for my exact CPU and if you were to take my hard-disk and put it in a lessor machine it woudln't even run because your Corei7 doesn't have the -mabm support...

      (Aside: The above is actually true. Sad I know. But since I have to do some of this for work I do it at home for consistency and to have similar machines. So when work replaced my laptop with a Corei7 I had to recompile the whole distro twice to remove the -mabm AMD feature from the binaries. /doh. 8-)

      --
      Innocent people shouldn't be forced to pay for inferior software development.
      --"Code Complete" Microsoft Press
    5. Re:Well, speaking as a hipster by Luyseyal · · Score: 1

      OK, I'll bite. WTH could you possibly do for work that requires this? :)

      -l

      --
      Help cure AIDS, cancer, and more. Donate your unused computer time to worldcommunitygrid.org. Join Team Slashdot!
    6. Re:Well, speaking as a hipster by IBitOBear · · Score: 1

      I work with classified systems on aircraft. The linux distro stuff is usually compiled to exact machine specs. I do the same things on my home systems so that I can remain familiar with the procedures (and more importantly the pitfalls and compatibility/replacement issues) so that when the real work hits these sorts of snags I am already familiar with the symptoms and remediation steps likely necessary.

      Note that the project isn't using Gentoo, but I am because it (over) simulates the kinds of things that the project -does- encounter. (plus I can bring in-and-out some of the things that some people suggest.)

      Basically I do this because it keeps me fore-armed for what the actual work will run me smack into eventually. 8-)

      --
      Innocent people shouldn't be forced to pay for inferior software development.
      --"Code Complete" Microsoft Press
  28. Still by ThatsNotPudding · · Score: 2, Insightful

    What a captivatingly sharp image of a walled garden topped with razor wire! Look at it glisten in the sunlight coming through the walls of our crystal cathedral!

    1. Re:Still by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      Walled garden? Let's see... yup, I can still install anything I want on my Macbook Pro. Oh, and the flagship IDE and compiler is still free. Comes with GCC too. And Python and Perl out of the box. Maybe you're taking a creative writing class and accidentally posted your poem on Slashdot?

    2. Re:Still by glitch0 · · Score: 1

      it's not a walled garden precisely because they let you install linux on it. if they locked down the hardware to prevent that then it would be a walled garden.

      --
      -Glitch "We all know Linux is great...it does infinite loops in 5 seconds." - Linus Torvalds
  29. not good for clumsy people = "garbage" by tgibbs · · Score: 1

    So a computer is "garbage" if it is not designed to deal with users who are so careless as to pour liquid into it? Face it: removable batter or not, if you spill liquid into your laptop keyboard, the likelihood that you will be able to pull the battery before anything is damaged is very close to zero. If you really are that clumsy, you probably should not buy any laptop computer--or at least buy one of those plastic keyboard protectors to go with it.

    1. Re:not good for clumsy people = "garbage" by bigt405 · · Score: 1

      Hah, I say to you! My ThinkPad has drainage canals in the keyboard for such an event. I know from experience that a ThinkPad keyboard can take a can of Pepsi, while a MacBook Air/Pro cannot (when proper steps are taken post spill). There are things Apple could do to idiot-proof their computers, but they're cosmetically ugly. They go for "pretty," so the addition of these features would hurt their business. More so than all the business lost by upset customers with shorted out hunks of aluminum.

  30. Greatness. by HalAtWork · · Score: 1

    A great OS is even greater with great hardware. I run Linux on a MacBook Pro because I like the hardware. I wouldn't want any other laptop.

  31. Need to know by trevc · · Score: 1

    Does it run Windows XP??

  32. Mistaken Claims by SuperKendall · · Score: 3, Interesting

    whatever comes after (HouseCat?) will probably be more IOS-likeâ"i.e., sucky on a laptop.

    People have been saying that for years, even though Apple has repeatedly said that a desktop OS is different than a mobile device OS and held to that statement through a number of OS releases.

    Meanwhile Microsoft is the only company that has gone ahead and said "no, both platforms should run the same OS".

    You can always install Linux later IF Apple turns that way as well.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    1. Re:Mistaken Claims by aztracker1 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      After a week with Mountain Lion, I'm actually leaning that way for my Macbook Pro next OS release... It was somewhat of a painful experience for me, doing a relatively clean install, then getting the core apps I want installed. I do a lot of my actual work in VMs, and the host OS is really starting to cramp my style so to speak.

      --
      Michael J. Ryan - tracker1.info
    2. Re:Mistaken Claims by Candyban · · Score: 2

      Meanwhile Microsoft is the only company that has gone ahead and said "no, both platforms should run the same OS".
      You can always install Linux later IF Apple turns that way as well.

      Seems some Linux distros are going that way too. Yes, I am looking at you Ubuntu.

    3. Re:Mistaken Claims by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 2

      eople have been saying that for years, even though Apple has repeatedly said that a desktop OS is different than a mobile device OS and held to that statement through a number of OS releases.

      Meanwhile Microsoft is the only company that has gone ahead and said "no, both platforms should run the same OS".

      This is an oversimplified description. In truth, there are not two platforms here, but three: desktops, tablets and smartphones. Apple lumps tablets and smartphones together under "mobile". Microsoft rather bets that tablets are (or should be) closer to desktops in capabilities, rather than to phones. Hence why Win8 is targeting desktops & tablets, and WP8 (which, while using the same kernel, is a different OS) is targeting phones - and their UI is also different in many ways, if you look beyond square tiles on the home screen.

    4. Re:Mistaken Claims by Electricity+Likes+Me · · Score: 2

      Meanwhile Microsoft is the only company that has gone ahead and said "no, both platforms should run the same OS".

      You can always install Linux later IF Apple turns that way as well.

      Seems some Linux distros are going that way too. Yes, I am looking at you Ubuntu.

      Thankfully we have Linux Mint, which at the end of the day is Ubuntu-but-not-stupid.

    5. Re:Mistaken Claims by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      Apple lumps tablets and smartphones together under "mobile".

      Not really. The iPad has iPad specific interface elements and different human interface guidelines. Apple agrees with your breakdown, except "desktop" includes "notebook."

    6. Re:Mistaken Claims by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      If Apple agreed with my breakdown, iPad would be running touch-enabled OS X (with fullscreen, Mission Control etc). No matter how you put it, iPad UI is much more like a scaled-up iPhone than it is like a scaled-down OS X.

    7. Re:Mistaken Claims by justforgetme · · Score: 1

      ... Ubuntu-but-not-stupid.

      hiQbuntu [ha.ku úntú]; ?

      --
      -- no sig today
    8. Re:Mistaken Claims by justforgetme · · Score: 1

      Dear slashdot:

      Please start supporting UTF8 characters in comment bodies. Thank you!

      --
      -- no sig today
    9. Re:Mistaken Claims by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      That would be lumping the iPad UI in with the desktop. The iPad UI is unique, agreeing with the three groups you stated.

    10. Re:Mistaken Claims by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      iPad UI is not unique, that's the point. 99% of it is same as iPhone.

    11. Re:Mistaken Claims by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      No, it's not. You've clearly never developed for an iPad. Or used one much.

    12. Re:Mistaken Claims by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      I had an iPhone 4 for a year, and still have an iPad now. I used it enough to know. It's the same thing.

      What does it matter if I never developed for it? I don't care how it looks from developer perspective, only from the user one.

    13. Re:Mistaken Claims by collet · · Score: 1

      Ubuntu? You mean Gnome Shell right?

    14. Re:Mistaken Claims by ilsaloving · · Score: 1

      If I may ask, what specifically is it about ML that's bothering you? Interface-wise, isn't it pretty much identical to Lion?

      I myself am still on Lion, because Apple always seems to screw something up with the initial OS release, and for ML it's the battery usage. There are some nice features I want in ML but I like my battery life more.

    15. Re:Mistaken Claims by aztracker1 · · Score: 1

      I skipped Lion, so can't comment on the differences.. I mostly don't like the big brother moves nearly forcing me into the MacStore for a lot of apps. I find the store cumbersome and really don't like a lot of the direction things are headed in, similar to ios, which I don't use.

      --
      Michael J. Ryan - tracker1.info
  33. Odd new hardware never works. by shippo · · Score: 1

    Fix it yourself by hacking the drivers. I had to do that with the sound hardware fitted to an old PC of mine. The card worked fine, apart from the MIDI interface which I could never get to work. It turned out that the main sound controller chip had a slightly different model number to the ones listed in the source of the kernel driver, and the mechanism for setting the MIDI hardware base address and interrupt was somewhat different. One evening spent disassembling the hardware's DOS driver later, and I had a patch that added support. It eventually ended up in the kernel source tree (2.2 perhaps?), but the whole driver was purged from the kernel a long time ago.

  34. No, it is enabled all the time... by SuperKendall · · Score: 2

    Oh, so that's why you have to use 3rd party "hacks" to enable native 2880x1800

    Wrong, the OS is running at 2880x1800 all the time.

    The hacks are all about turning on use of the higher resolution for apps that have not provided graphics for the higher res, so the text will look better. By default so OS X does not mess with the look of an app, it will keep the whole app running at the older resolution and simply scale up the display.

    All of the system apps (like Mail and Safari) of course support native 2880x1800, and all the other apps really have to do is re-compile (it's optional to add higher resolution image assets, though of course a good idea).

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  35. To everyone asking "Why would you do this?" by MobyDisk · · Score: 1

    To everyone asking "Why would you do this?" I can see two reasons:

    1) It is nice to have a nice, lightweight, high-end laptop that can run OS X, Windows, and Linux. The Macbook Pro 17" was great for this.

    2) People try to run Linux on crazy things, just for the challenge. It won't be too long before someone actually tries running Linux on an actual lemon. :-)

    1. Re:To everyone asking "Why would you do this?" by SilverJets · · Score: 1

      To everyone asking "Why would you do this?" I can see two reasons:

      1) It is nice to have a nice, lightweight, high-end laptop that can run OS X, Windows, and Linux. The Macbook Pro 17" was great for this.

      Install VirtualBox, then install linux and/or windows. Tada!

  36. Apple hardware doesn't work with non-Apple OS? by BitwizeGHC · · Score: 1
    --
    N4st0r, trixx0r h0bb1tz0rz! Th3y st0l3 0ur pr3c10uzz!
  37. but... by alienzed · · Score: 2

    Mac OS X is Unix, and then there's virtualization, why even bother getting Linux native to a Mac anymore?

    --
    Never say never. Ah!! I did it again!
  38. fruit synergy by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 1

    I wonder: if you networked the raspberry pi to this lemon, would it still be so sour, at first byte?

    (sorry..)

    --

    --
    "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
  39. Linux must suck by ysth · · Score: 1

    I got OS/2 running just fine.

  40. Two Apple Stories in One Day by thomasw_lrd · · Score: 1

    Since when did Apple become a sponsor of /.

  41. Re:This Just In: by tgibbs · · Score: 1

    It's certainly locked down in the sense of the physical nature of it. The RAM is soldered in, the battery glued on, the main storage is designed specifically for the one machine and the usual Gigabit Ethernet port is gone, replaced with a proprietary dongle that you plug into a Thunderbolt port. It may not be software lockdown, but it certainly is hardware lockdown. And that's not to mention that in order to boot Linux, you have to jump several hoops to get the bootloader to realise there's something other than OS X there.

    Whether or not it is easy it is to swap hardware components has nothing to do with software compatibility. And if you really want a standard wired ethernet port (most people use laptops on wireless these days, you know, so it is hard to justify making a laptop thicker just to make room for it), you simply buy the computer with the adapter that provides one. And the problems reported were not in getting the Mac to boot from Linux (which is quite routine; people have been doing for years and Apple has not changed anything to prevent it), but rather minor glitches with the new hardware.

  42. Retina display, silly. by Ameryll · · Score: 1

    Likely to get the retina display on your operating system of choice. I considered it myself for the very same reason.

  43. This was incidentally the machine by aussersterne · · Score: 1

    that initially helped me to transition to Mac OS. :-)

    Not wanting to shell out for a Mac without being sure I could acclimatize to the environment that I was thinking about switching to, I dual-booted a hacked up T60p with Linux+Hackintosh partitions. Still a great machine, and there are some ways in which it definitely outclassed my MacBook Pro (albeit not in the area of OS X compatibility, alas...)

    --
    STOP . AMERICA . NOW
    1. Re:This was incidentally the machine by bhtooefr · · Score: 1

      My frankenpad began as a T60p (15.0" 4:3, by the way, I forgot to mention that), with just the LCD swap, maxed out RAM, and a 2 GHz Core Duo, and I stuck with Windows 7 on that build (my experience on OS X being subpar, having used it extensively on an iBook G4, and being frustrated with the speed).

      Then after a while, things were failing, the chassis was damaged, and I was getting sick of the RAM limitations, so I got a nice refurb T60 15.0" 4:3 cheaply, ripped out all the T60 bits, put T61p bits in (which is what required filing part of the chassis away), swapped my LCD over, and ran with it for a while.

      Then, the screen started failing right before the MBPR was announced, so I jumped ship to OS X, and I'm liking it now that I have a fast machine.

  44. Say that after you've used one for a work month. by aussersterne · · Score: 1

    Your eyes will howl at a return to lower resolution displays. It'll make you feel like you need serious glasses.

    You notice the difference at the end of the day—you really do.

    --
    STOP . AMERICA . NOW
  45. Re:I fear you've misunderstood, by Score+Whore · · Score: 1

    I dumped a medium sized sprite into the keyboard of my dell xps 1530 laptop. I promptly tipped the whole thing upside down on the floor, to let the soda drain. Grabbed some towels and mopped things up. After leaving it overnight I tried to use it. Keyboard and trackpad buttons were pretty non-functional, sticky mainly. Took it apart. Immersed keyboard and trackpad in sink full of water. Agitated a bit. Rinsed several times. Sat in dish rack to dry. Put back in laptop. Everything works fine.

    I'm fairly certain that the only thing in there that is sensitive to liquids is the hard drive and the fans. Otherwise you could dunk the whole laptop in a bucket and then just let it dry out.

  46. Normal by ThurstonMoore · · Score: 1

    Sounds like every Linux experience I've ever had.

  47. Boot Camp? by BadPirate · · Score: 1

    TFA is lame. Doesn't mention what Linux distro (and there are a number) they tried. Nothing to see there..

    Though it does make me curious.. Anyone have trouble / success with boot camp and windows? Same issues? Work better?

    --
    - Holy crap, I've got MOD points! Who thought that was a good idea.
  48. Re:Expensive laptop, Free OS!! by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

    Ethernet is too big for thin.

    There's a toshiba ultrabook out there with a full-sized ethernet and VGA port. They seem to have used slightly custom ports and have cutaways in the casing, so the ports are actually the full height of the machine. It is a pretty thin laptop, and one doesn't have to fuss with carrying dongles around.

    You can fit them in, but Apple would never do it because of the looks. Personally, I think Apple are far too prepared to sacrafice build quality and functionality for looks.

    --
    SJW n. One who posts facts.
  49. Re:Say that after you've used one for a work month by Darinbob · · Score: 1

    I already have serious glasses. In order to look at an iPhone I have to take off the glasses and hold it about 4 inches from my face to read the text on it. That's why when I finally was forced to get a smart phone I got one with a larger display.

    And really "Retina" is only a marketing term, it's not scientific, it has nothing to do with retinas or level of details that eyes can see.

  50. Desktop/mobile OS convergence by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

    Meanwhile Microsoft is the only company that has gone ahead and said "no, both platforms should run the same OS".

    Not entirely true. Google has said the same thing quite explicitly, they've just also said that that OS isn't here yet. That's quite the point behind their whole overt plan to eventually convergence ChromeOS and Android.

  51. I would imagine passably well by osssmkatz · · Score: 1

    Because Åpple provides drivers for windows under boot camp, including for the retina display. I do recommend using virtualization instead though.

  52. And I would ask you "why?", as well! by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

    I have the new Retina MBP... and it's a fantastic machine. But WHY would you buy it just to install Linux on it anyway? It's a very expensive computer for that

    Its an expensive computer to run OSX on, too, because its just flat out an expensive computer.

    You pay the steep price of the Retina MBP because you want a laptop with a super-high-resolution display, which is the Retina MBPs core outstanding feature.

    You put Linux on it for any or all of the same reasons you'd want Linux on any computer.

    In almost all cases I'd suspect that people want to use both OSX and Linux

    Why? Particularly, why would the (hypothetical) fact that I want a super-high-resolution display on my Linux-based laptop mean that I also want to run OSX? And...

    and in that case, I'd highly suggest running Linux in a virtual machine anyway (Parallels/VMWare).

    ...even moreso why would the fact that I want a a super-high-resolution display on my Linux-based laptop mean that I want to burden my Linux system by running it in a VM on top of OSX?

  53. As long as your hardware is common and old by bigtrike · · Score: 1

    I've never had a newest model Dell server (very common) work with a distribution considered to be stable. Even the slightly older ones require very new kernels and binary drivers to support their broadcom nics, raid controllers, etc.

    1. Re:As long as your hardware is common and old by MikeBabcock · · Score: 4, Informative

      I install over 20 Dell servers a year running CentOS. I've never needed a single driver update. All of them are fully supported. Dell manufactures their servers specifically to be Linux supported.

      cf. http://linux.dell.com/

      --
      - Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
  54. Gotta Love That Linux = Ubuntu In TFA by ilikenwf · · Score: 1

    They installed Ubunturd. They didn't run any other distros. So it required some tweaks to boot the kernel? Ok. Either way, the article's own comment thread has mentions that Archlinux runs perfectly fine, albeit without some of the graphics stuff.

    This is just FUD by the Windows and Mac crowd. Move along.

  55. Re:hybrid graphics support by yet-another-lobbyist · · Score: 1

    Why do you think the Linux community would pay more attention to a particular kind of hardware once Apple uses it?

  56. Dear god! by multicoregeneral · · Score: 1

    Why would you screw up a perfectly good macbook pro by putting Unity crapware on it?

    --
    This signature intentionally left blank.
  57. Re:Last macbook for me!! by LDAPMAN · · Score: 1

    "amd64"?? All Apples x86 machines have been Intel. Fail troll.

  58. "The Retina MacBook Pro is a lemon because it won' by arfonrg · · Score: 1

    "The Retina MacBook Pro is a lemon because it won't run Linux"

    There, I fixed your title for you...

    --
    Your thin skin doesn't make me a troll
  59. Linux Is a Lemon by ThurstonMoore · · Score: 2

    Fixed that for you.

  60. Why? by SilverJets · · Score: 2

    Other than proving it can be done, why would you drop that amount of money on a retina display macbook pro and then install linux on it? OS X is already *nix and has a much, much cleaner and better looking gui than anything available for linux.

  61. The same reason as Linux on whatever else. by Shag · · Score: 1

    To see if it can be done.

    This is what getting Linux (or X, at the very least) working on any laptop used to be like, 15 years ago.

    I bought a NEC Versa 2000C (486DX-75, 9.5" 640x480x16bpp, etc.) which worked well enough that I don't recall having to screw around too much with the settings - though of course I maxed the RAM and got a bigger HD and spent a lot of time messing around with different window managers to decide which one was good given the limited screen size.

    A year or two later, I got my ex a Versa 4080H (P-120 with F00F bug if I recall, 10ish" 800x600) which in theory could run 800x600x16bpp, but after tons of messing with xconf (I think there may have been one other person who had one and was trying to run Linux on it) she pretty much wound up stuck at 8bpp forever. And although headphone audio worked, I don't know whether I ever got the built-in speakers to work.

    So, somebody comes out with a laptop that makes use of hardware that no one's ever seen the likes of before and Linux isn't instantly somehow magically ready to run on it? This is my complete lack of surprise. (And I'm sure people are already slaving away on support for every feature of the Retina MBP.)

    --
    Village idiot in some extremely smart villages.
  62. Re:And then.. by jbolden · · Score: 1

    Macports is hosted out of http://www.macosforge.org./ But yeah they pay about 10 people to clean up open source distribution and get them working on a BSD style system.

  63. Re:This Just In: by antifoidulus · · Score: 1

    Getting this far involved rather a lot of irritation at Apple for conspiring to do things in a range of non-standard ways, but it turns out that the real villains of the piece are Intel. The Thunderbolt controller in the Apples is an Intel part - the 82524EF, according to Apple. Given Intel's enthusiasm for Linux and their generally high levels of engagement with the Linux development community, it's disappointing[1] to discover that this controller has been shipping for over a year with (a) no Linux driver and (b) no documentation that would let anyone write such a driver. It's not even mentioned on Intel's website. So, thanks Intel. You're awful.

    So yeah, dont let facts get in the way of your rant.

  64. OSX on Non Apple Hardware by jobdrb · · Score: 1

    Its ok to say that Linux or even Windows could not run well on a Apple Hardware, but you could found many more hardware that OSX does not run. :)

  65. Windows not 100% either on that hardware. by metalmonkey · · Score: 2

    Intel Thunderbolt drivers are particularly poor - not supporting hot-plug in windows yet.
    This is not really a problem with the hardware itself just Intel/Microsofts priorities are not aimed on thunderbold, considering it isn't on that much hardware at the moment.

    How would you then expect that it will work immediatly on linux - where typically the developers don't get pre-release hardware or even specs.

  66. Get off my lawn. by zippthorne · · Score: 1

    A 15 inch screen simply doesn't need a resolution like that.

    Shut up and change you username to "OldManEyes" or something. It's still a fraction of the dpi of newsprint. Increases in monitor resolution will make it possible to have crisper text (or just more text, but crisper is a better choice), which is easier to read.

    I'm typing this in a 13" monitor at 1280 x 800, and looking at the jagged edges and aliasing around my icons and text and thinking that I would even like more than 2880x1800, but at least it's a good start. It's not worth it for me at the current price, but that's an issue with my limited resources, not with the idea of a higher dpi screen.

    Stop thinking in terms of, "What's the minimum we can get away with and still be useful." That's an oppressive philosophy when applied in the way you have, implicitly impugning those who want more than the minimum as frivolous. Instead, try thinking about "What's the best we can do with the resources we have." instead.

    Just going with the minimum bearable specs got us stuck for 100 years with an abysmal academy frame rate of 24fps that we're only just now starting to talk about getting out of.

    Don't put stuff down just because you can't enjoy it.

    --
    Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    1. Re:Get off my lawn. by amicusNYCL · · Score: 1

      Stop thinking in terms of, "What's the minimum we can get away with and still be useful."

      That's not my argument. My argument was that just before the MBPs came out, there wasn't a huge clamoring for higher DPI monitors, there just wasn't. But now all of a sudden it's the major selling point that people are using to justify why this is such a great purchase. Higher DPI is coming, for sure, but I'm not going to base any future computer purchases on a high DPI over all of the other important parts in a computer. I would prefer SSD drives, large amounts of fast RAM, or a faster processer to a high DPI, for instance. As far as gaming goes, I don't think the current generation of video cards would be able to pump out that many pixels at the high settings we like to use either.

      --
      "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
  67. Flamebait is right, assumption is WRONG!! by davidosteedski · · Score: 1

    For the last week, the entire work week I have been studying centos - installation, configuration, ... I constantly create new VM's, clone them and so on. The only unusual thing is I resize the window, then back to full screen, - this sets the right display settings. That takes about 1 second after each start. Using vmware. If you are using MBP Retina in Bootcamp, then... WHY? Using VMware and it rocks!

  68. Re:Expensive laptop, Free OS!! by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

    Functionality maybe, but full height cutaways in the case sound like they'd be a build quality issue.

    Personally, I'd much rather carry around a dongle for VGA rather than have it built permanently into my notebook. Ditto with the ethernet port (I can't remember the last time I used mine). I've also replaced the optical drive with an SSD because I can't remember the last time I used it. Things that I don't use frequently are quite well left to dongles.

  69. Re:This Just In: by tgibbs · · Score: 1

    Sounds more like the kind of routine driver problems that almost invariably crop up with a new hardware platform or a new interface.

  70. Scalable graphics and text? by Compaqt · · Score: 1

    Don't we already have this on Linux?

    If not, why not?

    We're still in the era of bitmapped fonts and icons?

    And what's the point of all the required 3D and compositing business if you're not going to have scalable icons and text?

    --
    I'm not a lawyer, but I play one on the Internet. Blog
  71. Absolutely Linux on server-side by aussersterne · · Score: 1

    is a win.

    But on desktop side, one of the things that's often behind are support for common desktop file formats and standards, and amongst the most common management issues are hardware support bugs and instabilities. In hopes of getting features and bug fixes, you run updates to relevant packages. Those packages then depend on other packages—to get the bug fix or the feature/support you're happy to see has been implemented, you end up either:

    (1) Spending time trying to figure out dependencies yourself, disconnect other dependencies with your own configuration and compiles, and only upgrade those packages that absolutely must be upgraded to get the updates you want.

    (2) Updating everything to save the time otherwise spent doing (1), but then dealing with shifting filesystem standards, codebases, infrastructure implementations, etc. and having to essentially manage your own projects/code/work in relation to these in order to get your system back to the functional state it was in just before you ran the update. And there are often regressions.

    It's a sort of damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't phenomenon on the Linux desktop; either way you're going to . These days I tell people:

    - If you install Fedora, Ubuntu, etc. and immediately find every last thing that you need and a well-supported system, great. Linux may be for you.

    - If you feel as though you're "almost there" and are just waiting for those one or two precious updates that will fulfill your needs, steer clear. You'll probably never get there, and you'll spend a lot of time tracking the evolution of the codebase(s) and doing system management as you wait.

    --
    STOP . AMERICA . NOW
  72. I'm not a Vim power user, so I probably by aussersterne · · Score: 1

    don't see the issues that you experienced.

    But I do use vim on a regular basis for little things and have had no issues in iTerm, so it may depend (for the benefit of info for others) on the level at which you use Vim. If it's just to bung on text files here and there, it might be Good Enough[TM] for many. (It is for me—no issues.)

    Sounds like for serious Vim users (I was always in the Emacs camp instead for big work) iTerm, too, may be lacking.

    --
    STOP . AMERICA . NOW
  73. Of course it's a marketing term by aussersterne · · Score: 1

    but that doesn't mean that it's content-free. No, it doesn't actually have to do with scientifically established property of retinas, nor does it magically reach out and paint your retinas with pleasant fairy dust.

    But the marketing department uses "retina" to indicate a very high resolution display. To those of us that like them, that is a feature, which makes the term useful, though any word designating the same feature would have had the same information function in the end.

    --
    STOP . AMERICA . NOW
  74. Obligatory Lemon Comment: by DiEx-15 · · Score: 1

    When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back. GET MAD! I don't want your damn lemons! What the hell am I suppose to do with these?! Demand to see Life's Manager! Make Life rue the day it thought it could give Cave Johnson lemons!!! Do you know who I am?! I'm the guy who's gonna burn your house down! With the lemons! I'm gonna get my engineers to invent a combustible lemon that burns your house down!!!

  75. Oh, Darn! by jep305 · · Score: 1

    Darn it, Apple! Now I'll have to install Linux on my computer and pay only 1/3 as much!

    WHY ARE YOU TRYING TO DESTROY MY LIFE, APPLE???

    --
    In Reason We Trust
  76. Re:Not just the retina macbook pro by IBitOBear · · Score: 1

    That's because HP, Dell, Lenovo and others don't try to present themselves as all socially conscious and "think[ing] differently" for the hippy sects.

    Evil is evil, and we only -really- get mad when we catch people being all "boosterist for non-evil" simply because nobody actually looked for the evil.

    --
    Innocent people shouldn't be forced to pay for inferior software development.
    --"Code Complete" Microsoft Press
  77. Utter rubbish ... by Cherubim1 · · Score: 1

    This is a completely stupid and ill-informed article. The real problem lies with Apple's proprietary junk hardware and their intolerance for users running anything other than that dreaded Mac OS X. Hence the real lemon is Apple and it's overpriced hardware. Linux can easily adapt to any hardware platform - the same can't be said about OS X and it's bastardized implementation of BSD.

  78. Is this Slashdot? by Rob_Bryerton · · Score: 1

    To all the people asking why, I have a better question... WHY NOT? I'll run whatever the fuck I want I on my hardware. You don't like it? Tough shit.

    What happened to choice is good, diversity is good? Look at all of these so-called nerds, shouting down the few who don't conform to running Windows on $300 laptops.

    Congratulations, you've become what you despised. /rant

    So, full disclosure here (and you're going to love this): I have several Macs; my current rigs are 2011 iMac 27" and 2011 MBP 17". They both run Fedora. 90% of the time anyway. (They multiboot Fedora, Mint, Snow Leopard & Mountain Lion.) Oh, yeah: I went to Starbucks yesterday, ordered a quad Iced Latte and enjoyed the hell out of it. My television broke over a year ago, and I never got it fixed: I cancelled cable instead. So you could say that I don't watch television! I do not own a beret, nor do I wear one.

    My point is, I don't have one. I'm just a regular guy, and I don't care what you think of my choices.

  79. Re:Expensive laptop, Free OS!! by kaws · · Score: 1

    I won't say that there aren't any ultrabooks out there with those ports, I'm just saying that even the rMBP is too thin for it. Searching around, I didn't find any ethernet ports that were less than 0.71 inches (1.8 cm). I didn't do much searching but the one I found was 2cm which means the ethernet standard can't go thin enough. I'll agree with you that this move is super annoying but, I'm also saying that I understand why it is. I use ethernet all the time btw. There's too many wifi routers in my apartment for it to be reliable.

  80. Shocking News!!! by Danious · · Score: 1

    The Pope is Catholic! And bears have been spotted defecating in the woods!

    This happens every time Apple releases new hardware. This is just Phoronix trolling for clicks again. Give it 6 months and the picture will be better. I had the exact same problems with my 2009 MBP, even used the exact same boot parms fr 6 months before things were sorted out.

  81. Re:Say that after you've used one for a work month by yarbo · · Score: 1

    Android is just a marketing term, it's not scientific it has nothing to do with humanoid robots.

  82. And this is news worthy why? by moodel · · Score: 1

    Just asking :/