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Microsoft's Hidden Windows 8 Feature: Ads
MojoKid writes "Despite the fact that I've been using Windows 8 for the past three weeks, I somehow managed to overlook a rather stark feature in the OS: ads. No, we're not talking about ads cluttering up the desktop or login screen (thankfully), but rather ads that can be found inside of some Modern UI apps that Windows ships with. That includes Finance, Weather, Travel, News and so forth. On previous mobile platforms, such as iOS and Android, seeing ads inside of free apps hasn't been uncommon. It's a way for the developer to get paid while allowing the user to have the app for free. However, while people can expect ads in a free app, no one expects ads in a piece of software that they just paid good money for."
M$
I only pay for applications with bad money instead of good money, so I'm fine with the ads.
AntiFA: An abbreviation for Anti First Amendment.
send Microsoft your monthly Internet bill, so they can pay for the bandwidth those ads use.
"National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
This kind of caught me off guard too. The music App started showing me ads, and not just little images off to the side, but full screen videos asking me to sign up for a subscription. I thought that the :"Music" app was what I was supposed to use to listen to the music I already owned. Not some nagware that tried to convince me to buy more music off the MS specific store. I promptly removed the music from my desktop after that and just went to download Winamp, since WMP and the new music app were completely unable to play FLAC files anyway. I can't see how MS isn't going to get in trouble for this one. If they got in trouble for doing it with browsers, which were mostly free anyway, even before they started including them, just think of how Apple is going to react to MS embedding a music store in the OS, or Steam is going to react to adding a games store in the OS.
Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
I guess Tanenbaum will have to add a new chapter to the next printing of his Operating Systems textbook.
What - Like Angry Birds on the iPad?? http://www.iosnoops.com/2011/03/17/angry-birds-hd-advertising-screw-up-why-ads-in-paid-apps-are-a-big-no-no/
You paid MS to license Windows8. You didn't buy a copy. Ergo, you are agreeing to pay MS a specified sum of money to view ads which happen to come with programs that you can also use.
Is there, or has there ever been, ANY reason why you would put Windows 8 on a desktop or laptop? There's not a single positive new feature or advantage of it that I've heard of. And I'm being serious, I really haven't heard one thing it does new or better than 7.
Phones/Tablets, I can understand, but why would you on a desktop or laptop?
From Microsoft Wallet.
"I believe in Karma. That means I can do bad things to people all day long and I assume they deserve it." : Dogbert
I'd almost forgotten why i shun microsoft. This is a good reminder.
How is this a Windows 8 Feature though and not something that the developer embedded into her app?
One more reason to exercise "down"grade rights.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
I can hardly believe this article was posted without researching the EULA. I would imagine it addresses this new feature. If it does, that's not news (other than the usual EULA hilarity). If it does not, that's news.
The only thing that's "news" here is the rather unbelievable concept that you actually think people read EULAs anymore. Even if it did address it, chances are the words "built-in ads" are summed up inside three paragraphs of legalese that no one understands anyway.
Only the second coment and it's parrotting "feature". How is this in any way a feature? features help the end user, anything that detracts from the user's experience is either a bug or a design flaw.
This is not a feature, it's a flaw. A really BAD flaw.
Free Martian Whores!
Microsoft has been putting ads in for quite some time, even though XBox Live is a paid service.
I have dual boot Ubuntu and XP. Ubuntu is taking the spot as my main OS more and more lately, and XP is there just for legacy apps.
My wife likes Linux, though has XP on her dying laptop.
We were considering going OS X and MacBook, but Apple's stringent control is to the liking of neither of us (and she's the opposite of a techie). And the rumour of moving to ARM?
Thus, when her laptop dies, she'll get a new one with either Ubuntu or Mint, and our move to the next, new, modern operating system will bypass the Windows "ecosystem" altogether.
P.S. Oh yeah, both our iPhones will be replaced by Android...
You paid money for the OS. When an OS component has an ad, feel free to get angry. In the meantime, get over it. You don't have to use Microsoft free software. You can choose to download your own. Hell, this is Slashdot, you should be making your own, releasing the source, and publishing it to the Microsoft Store. Anyone who's unboxed a new computer will know that this is true. You just paid ______ computer company $____ for a computer! How dare they install advertisements, trialware, and crap software on your computer! Same issue, different company.
I never see ads in Linux, even when using free apps.
It's a brave new world out there for Ubuntu users: http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2012/09/online-shopping-features-arrive-in-ubuntu-12-10
Consider it an extra hint about what you're supposed to do with all the crapware they install on your computer the moment you start it up. None of the shit that comes with Windows or OEM bundles is worth the price you paid for it, so just tilt it all into the shredder and go out and find windows ports of all the free Linux apps that provide better functionality without all the bullshit.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
They're so targeted to my interests, it actually adds value to the experience? It makes it easier and more intuitive to find the products I need? The costs would otherwise be passed on to the consumer?
Fuck you.
Not an Ubuntu user then I take it.
This gives me a gut feeling all the programs you install could be used for ads more targeted than ever before....
Forget your search history, these could use data from your whole internet history, downloads, desktop, start menu...
It's not like you pay for windows anyway.
I never see ads in Linux, even when using free apps.
I see ads in free applications for Android (a Linux-based operating environment for phones and tablets) all the time. Even Ubuntu 12.10 has Amazon ads. What Linux-based operating environment are you using? And do you play any free games with production values comparable to those of professional games on that version of Linux?
How is this a Windows 8 Feature though and not something that the developer embedded into her app?
From the summary: "apps that Windows ships with."
Xbox Live is both a free service (Silver) and a paid service (Gold). The ads and the Marketplace are in Silver, as I understand it, even though logging into Gold also logs you into Silver.
Microsoft Windows is now adware, in addition to beeing just payware and bloatware.
It's news because it's surprising Microsoft thought this was a good idea.
Maybe they are right, maybe people won't mind and they will make tons of money, but it sure annoys me, and my guess is other people will be annoyed too. Who wants this stuff on their work computer?
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
Exactly. I expect to see ads anywhere and everywhere, except in apps distributed through my Linux distribution's software repository.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
just think of how Apple is going to react to MS embedding a music store in the OS, or Steam is going to react to adding a games store in the OS.
Valve has already published its reaction to the Windows Store in Windows 8. See stories from late July and late October.
On page 7 of the 11 page legal document called the Windows 8 EULA, in Section 6 "Windows Apps", Microsoft include the following wonderfully enlightening information...
"Some Windows apps include advertising. You may choose to opt out of personalized advertising by visiting choice.live.com."
It's bad ideas like this that will help propel the Android desktop. Now that Valve is diving into Linux and Nvidia is optimizing for it as well it wouldn't surprise me to see a decent challenge to Windows in the near future. Multiple "app" stores, streamlined gaming, built in virus protection (not that it's _that_ problematic) and familiar with millions of people already using Android on their cellphones. (branding makes a difference in retail)
I'm using a free Linux app (called Firefox) right now and if I scroll to the top of this page I can see advertisement!
No, "(GBP)inux" and "Appl(EUR)" aren't quite the same as "M$". Microsoft started out as a publisher of interpreters of the line-numbered BASIC programming language. Names of string variables in early BASIC always ended in $, making LET M$ = "Microsoft" valid code. What language are you talking about that uses the symbol for GBP or EUR?
I haven't noticed any ads, myself.
Of course, the first thing I did after I installed Windows 8 was install classic shell and disable metro entirely, so maybe that's why. ^_^.
For the purposes of this discussion, an app which is shipped with Windows 8 and which is either installed by default or is activated/installed with the Windows 8 "Turn Windows features on or off" control panel is considered part of Windows 8 in the same way that notepad and paint have been considered part of "Windows" for many versions back.
On the other hand, an application installed by a hardware vendor as part of it's "OEM image" or an application whose installer is on the Windows retail DVD or downloadable installation package but which is NOT installed by the Windows installer and which is NOT managed as a Windows "feature" can be considered "not part of Windows."
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
Covering it in the EULA does not necessarily make it either reasonable or unremarkable.
Apple isn't legally a monopoly.
It is on touch screen smartphones. Apple v. Samsung.
Definitely a feature. If you look at it though, these apps are just a native replacement for the MSN website...which has ads. Probably always has. I don't see the controversy here. If you don't want to see Microsoft's ads, don't use the preinstall internet apps like Finance, etc...
Charisma is the measure of someone's ability to lie with a straight face.
.
The question is --- With Apple and Google cleaning Microsoft's clock in the mobile world, at what point will the value of Windows be reduced to the point that it is just another delivery medium for ads?
I think you can uninstall the apps that include the ads, at least for non-"core OS" apps like Finance, News, Music, etc.
You can definitely remove their icons from the main Start screen, but they will still show in "All Apps."
If you remove them from the main Start screen or disable their "live update" capabilities, you can also choose to not run those apps.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
This is crazy. The next thing is we'll have ads on TV and radio.
"You may choose to opt out of personalized advertising by visiting choice.live.com."
".. by filling in the form with the mandatory fileds of First, Last and Maiden names, Birthday, Address, Phone number, Utilities bill and Blood group."
The three laws of thermodynamics:(1) You can't win. (2) You can't break even. (3) You can't even quit.
Fact the first: Adverts within an application consume display space, and in smaller screens, this becomes more apparent.
Fact the second: Adverts require that you be a bit more careful with your mouse/finger/stylus/whatever, lest you accidentally click on the advert and interrupt what you're doing (especially if you're playing a game or other activity that has a high chance of random clickage).
Fact the third: Ads in paid-for/included applications, delivered by the OS maker, cannot be rationalized, especially since the competition does no such thing. When an OEM does it, it is often labeled "crapware".
Fact the fourth:: Even if you do not use it (them), you are stuck with the application(s) residing on your hard drive, taking up space, and potentially running in the background, which would consume both CPU and networking bandwidth. For mobile devices with 3G/4G data caps and using Windows 8 (be it RT or x86), this becomes a potential extra cost... you are literally paying to see the adverts in programs you did not install or choose yourself.
Fact the fifth: You as a consumer were not made aware of this intrusion until after you purchased the item, and since it is software, good luck getting a refund on it from either OEM or OS maker.
Conclusion: This ad-laden software is a massive flaw, not a feature.
Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
anybody sniffed what win8 is sending and where ?
i only ask because i need to know for when i call the police to report a bunch of 20-50yo men and women that are spying on my childrens computer usage, as they installed windows8 , MS Eula is null and void as minors cannot agree to contracts.
iam sure the EU privacy commission would like to know whats going on too
I paid $15 for the OS upgrade (before they fixed the loophole in their upgrade promo site), just to see what all the commotion was about. Upgrade went fairly smooth considering I did the unthinkable and actually tried to upgrade a Microsoft OS without starting from scratch (I imaged my boot drive ahead of time just in case).
I played around with the Modern UI apps for the first day or so, smirked at the not-so-subtly placed ads, installed Classic Shell and haven't bothered to go back to the Modern UI since. The Modern UI truly has no place on a desktop computer... or anything without a touchscreen for that matter. It's a consumption-oriented tablet UI that probably excels at keeping you occupied during an extended shit session. I'll stick to the desktop and benefit from Win8's tighter security and streamlined bootup/shutdown. With a couple tweaks, it's like a really well made service pack for Win7.
Install privoxy on remote host and set listen-address to the hosts externally accessible IP.
Most linux users don't know this, but the man pages were named after Chuck Norris. Chuck Norris fsck'ing hates noobs!
danm why did you have to go and say that outloud now they will try it
---Saying gnome 3 is better than windows 8 not so much a compliment as it is damning with light praise.
lets assuming for a moment that you are not a troll (which you obviously are)
Windows 8 won't let you change the host file.
http://tech.slashdot.org/story/12/08/19/1923210/windows-8-changes-host-file-blocking
---Saying gnome 3 is better than windows 8 not so much a compliment as it is damning with light praise.
I will point out that they're generally tucked out of the way to the right end of all the content. Except for games, when you do the daily challenges you're get hit with a full screen 30 second commercial on an infrequent basis. With the exception of those games I didn't find them to be invasive at all.
However, it did get me thinking... I was shocked to find myself not particularly bothered by that advertising. Barely 10 years ago I would have been thrown into an apoplectic rage and the suggestion that I'd have to see adds in software I've paid for. I railed at the presence of in game marketing, where advertising first extended it's tendrils into the non-web space. To this day I use Ad-blocker. But here I am, face to face with a freaking 30 second commercial I can't skip and I see it as a minor inconvenience. If anything, I started thinking that it would be nice to be able to pay a little extra to eliminate those ads.
Clearly I've been desensitized. And this was exactly the fear I had years ago, that companies will push and push until consumers no longer care. If I had to identify what led to this gradual submission, it would have to be online advertising and ads in mobile and iPad apps. This stuff always comes in small steps.
Unfortunately, where 10 years ago I was young, having nothing better to do and subject to few responsibilities, nowadays I'm far too busy to worry about stuff like this.
How is this making headlines at Slashdot? "Stuff that matters" this isn't. You paid for the OS. If you bought a Surface, you paid for hardware. You didn't pay for constant upkeep of the applications within. By my count, the "Music" app alone has been updated 4 times since the RTM. That's a lot of man hours - and is clearly more work than just a few bug fixes here and there. This is a huge music service - if you just want to listen to your songs, go use Windows Media Player - the Music app is a different experience. Just INSTALLING Java or Flash gives me an ad for Google Toolbar. Opening Steam gives me ads for dozens of Steam games. Playing practically any EA game gives me ads for anything from a body spray to a presidential candidate. Ads are ubiquitous. But they don't intimidate me. Practically every sci-fi vision of the future shows corporate sponsorship owning the world - we all know it's going that way... is it news worthy?
I bought Windows 8 and stuck it on an XP computer that was suffering from Windows rot. Since re-installing Windows is a multi-night ordeal, I felt that doing it again with XP, given it's short remaining life, was silly, and MS was offering the Pro version of 8 for just $40... and I soon found out why! Ads! LOL... it may not be "controversial", but it sure was shocking. How the mighty have fallen...
Incidentally, Windows 8 has a lot of usability problems. The ads are the least of the problems. I think my wife wants to kill me for ruining "her" computer.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
Yes, and this new fangled "pay TV" won't have commercials either...
On page 7 of the 11 page legal document called the Windows 8 EULA, in Section 6 "Windows Apps", Microsoft include the following wonderfully enlightening information...
"Some Windows apps include advertising. You may choose to opt out of personalized advertising by visiting choice.live.com."
... Or you might aswell also opt-out by visiting www.ubuntu.com and avoid the hassle altogether!
"no one expects ads in a piece of software that they just paid good money for"
Kindle.
"Programming is life, the rest is mere details"
I knew this was coming the moment i saw ads on the new XBox interface and was further reinfirced when MS did everything they could for you to NOT be able to diasable 'Metro'. First and foremost, Metro is there FOR OTHER PEOPLE to use your computers' resources.
Good-bye
I don't expect ads when I pay good money to enter a movie theater. Yet there they are -- dammit.
-kgj
"no one expects ads in a piece of software that they just paid good money for"
Why not? You pay for cable TV and see ads, you see product placement in the shows you watch between the ads, there's product placement in movies, advertisements for other products on the products you buy, ads for books on the backs of books, and the list goes on. The only thing, I think, that really KEEPS ads OUT of a product is the value of its aesthetic. You'll never see an ad on the back of a fancy-looking leather-bound book, because you're paying for an aesthetic that precludes it. You won't find an ad in, say, a free Linux distro, because the aesthetic of the culture precludes it.
So I think we should look at this from the opposite perspective: why are ads showing up in Windows NOW? It may be a sign that Microsoft's business model is changing in some way, but I think it may have more to do with the adoption of the app-market aesthetic. You may not expect to see an ad in an app that you paid for, but you REALLY wouldn't expect to see an ad in a traditional program like Excel or Photoshop.
Esoteric reference.
I notice ads have cropped up in Metro Skype too. They didn't used to if you had credit in your account.
Thanks Microsoft!
I'm glad some one has the balls to hypothetically speak up with their hypothetical outrage about their hypothetical purchase!
As opposed to actually speaking up with actual outrage about a declined purchase? Put this into a feedback form on Microsoft.com: "I would have bought a new PC with Windows 8, but I didn't because of X, Y, and Z." Or "I bought a Nexus 10 instead of a Surface because of X, Y, and Z." For another thing, "if I did I'd email them" sounds like planning what one would do if hired by a company that adopted Windows 8 or if a family member insisted that one troubleshoot a PC running Windows 8.
It looks like this is a core component of Redmond's business plan in all their OS offerings.
$5 / month hosted VPS on linux = awesome!
I suspect that the "Professional" versions would leave this bit out of it, lest Windows 7 become the last version that enterprises would use.
After all, who wants to see an ad for their competitor pop up on their workstations?
Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
You claim not to see advertisements in free applications for Slackware. (I noticed your snark about the version number.) So how would you recommend that a developer pay the expenses to develop a quality video game for Slackware 14.0 and other PC Linux operating systems without A. requiring payment for each copy or B. displaying advertisements? (I mention video games as an example; given an answer for video games, it can be extended to other categories of application.)
Opting out at choice.live.com requires registration, including providing an email address. [sarcasm]I'm sure i'll never receive unsolicited emails from them! [/sarcasm]
I am not a number - I am a free man!
The OP is not a parent. Calling someone a troll without any evidence simply because they are extremely verbose makes you look like a fool.
You HAVE heard of the hosts blocking right??
http://winhelp2002.mvps.org/hosts.htm
I am fairly certain that there are anti-trust issues here. If using the desktop software, which you maintain a monopoly on, as a display device for advertisements isn't abusing a monopoly position I don't know what is. I can't think of a more clear example of leveraging your monopoly in one market to enter another.
Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master.
I don't believe that hosts is faster than adblock, which blocks content before the domain name is resolved. Firefox goes through a process to decide whether and how to send a request, which ABP uses. Benchmark it for me.
Also, why should I trust a piece of closed-source software with my DNS records?
If you're dynamically updating a hosts file, it would seem that you are reinventing the square wheel -- this is what a DNS cache is for. A local DNS caching server is going to be just as fast, and much more flexible. You can run one on your desktop, or have it on a separate machine, and either way you can route all other DNS requests to it, instead of having a script running on each machine. They support dynamic blacklists as well, and you can match wildcard addresses (e.g. *.malwareserver.com). What is the problem with using tools designed for this purpose?
You mention the home address. The problem with 127.0.0.1 isn't that it it's slower. The problem with it is that it's a valid IP address, usually for a local web server. If there is a server listening, it will process the request.
Those who advocate genocide deserve every protection afforded by law, and none afforded by common human decency.
It's a nasty trick, but apparently it can be turned off although I haven't tried this yet; see thread below.
What's more evil, IMHO, is that the ads give location and context to users and invade their privacy, and potentially open the software being used to infection or manipulation vectors. Users didn't ask for their privacy to be given up, and it means that the apps have holes, perhaps big ones, to be manipulated by malware.
I understand the need for revenue, but this seems over the top.
---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
Why is it surprising that someone thought putting ads in a paid product was a good idea, it happens all the time.
1. By a DVD get non-skippable adds a the beginning.
2. Go to a movie and pay get ads
3. Get adds inside movies themselves (product placement).
4. Go to car dealer and have them stick there name on your car somewhere, here you are providing them with free adverstising.
5. My computer has an HP on it, yes some of that is branding so I know what computer it is but it is also advertising.
I don't have pay TV put I think there where ads there too, just not as many.
Face it people will try and get as much revenue out of a product as they can, an putting ads in paid products is an option.
Just a side question why should the EULA need to mention anything about ads specifically anyway (tracking ads maybe), is it a violation of your rights be advertised to. I sure it already mentions getting stuff from the internet.
After all, who wants to see an ad for their competitor pop up on their workstations?
That would be hilarious.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
In Apple v. Samsung, Samsung was found liable of infringing Apple's patents. Once Apple convinces a judge to issue an injunction against further infringement, Apple would go from 2nd to 1st in a moment.
What individual builds a laptop? Never met a single person in my 32 years, apart from once meeting Ben Heck at a video gaming convention.
That'd be consistent with Windows 7-preloaded PCs being on clearance for the past two weeks. In November of next year, will it still be easy to get a laptop with Windows 7 on it?
Yep, you pay for an XBox Live subscription on a monthly basis and STILL get ads. It stands to reason a one-time license purchase of Windows would also have ads.
"Love heals scars love left." -- Henry Rollins
It doesn't matter what OS you are using. The apps can contain ads even if you paid for it. If the App developpers are stupid enough to display ads after you've paid then so be it. Maybe later customers will stop buying it.
I'm just "Trying before I buy" is it my fault I am bad at making decisions and it will take till windows 9?
There Can Be Only One...
With even gaming moving over to Linux since developers have finally become fed up with MS' bullshit, there is no reason left to run Windows for any reason whatsoever. Hooray! And it won't have to take the table scraps from Xbox development either! No more conflict of interest.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
You like this one? Parallels is worse.
Parallels is VM software for OS X on the Mac. Most people, like me, use it to run Windows. It has a nice coherence mode where the Windows start menu and taskbar can show up on the OS X desktop and OS X applications and Windows applications can run side by side. It's generally fast and stable. Nice software. I think my company paid $70 for the copy that I'm using.
That is, it's nice until Parallels pops up an ad in your face. This is a window that comes up in OS X, popping up on top of whatever else you're doing, taking the mouse and keyboard focus with it. I've seen ads for Kaspersky anti-virus, and AnchorFree Hotspot Shield. It's incredibly intrusive, to the point of being malware, which is unbelievable in a piece of commercial, licensed, paid-for software.
The first time that this happened I was in the middle of a hairy debugging session and stared at the thing for a good 10 seconds, unable to understand what I was seeing. When I finally got my head out of my code and realized what I was looking at, I was incensed. I took a screenshot, dismissed then thing, then spent 20 minutes getting my head back into the work that I had been doing.
There is a command that you can issue in a terminal window to turn it off. But it's not documented anywhere by Parallels. Parallels support used to tell you the command in private communication if you asked about this, but they stopped doing that a while ago. People posted the command to the Parallels support forum, after which, Parallels promptly deleted those posts. Fortunately you can find the command posted elsewhere on the web. If you ask Parallels support about this now, you get an arrogant answer about most users appreciating the "special offers", and that there isn't a way to turn them off. I expect the secret command to disappear in a future software update.
This is an amazingly stupid thing to do to paying customers. I expect Parallels to fold at some point, which is a shame, because the product itself is a good one. I won't be giving them any more money. I plan to switch to VMWare Fusion soon.
AdFree Android appears to be a tool for managing the hosts file on a rooted Android device. In other words it's an APK that APK would recommend. But if everybody rooted their devices and used AdFree Android, how else would developers pay their bills?
You may choose to opt out of personalized advertising by visiting choice.live.com.
First, does that refer to "Windows apps shipped as part of the base system", or "Windows apps bought through our app store"? Apple has a similar switch that disables (most, for now) personalized advertising in 3rd-party apps. It doesn't apply to their own apps, as their own apps don't have ads.
Second, that phrasing explicitly avoids referring to non-personalized advertising. They would be complying with the letter of the agreement by serving you the same generic ads that everyone else sees.
Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
Your ads are worse that Microsoft's.
/* No Comment */
Damn it, I don't know my blood group. Do I just need to cut my finger and sign the alternate paperform version with blood and send it in to MS directly? Isn't that how you're supposed to sign deals with the devil?
;>)
I don't know if I'd pick Ubuntu as an exemplar here.
Windows 8 Pro (which I have) has the ads. However, the ads are in a couple built-in apps, like Finance, not in the OS itself. The Finance app itself is actually pretty good, but it's really nothing more than a website with a Metro layout. The main problem I see with it, beyond ads, is that it's slow to load.
If you can't convince them, convict them.
Yes, because recent versions of Ubuntu don't have ads at all.
Oh... wait.
There are - of course - alternatives. My concern is when the "industry" starts moving in a given directly, all the "alternatives" tend to gravitate there, and suddenly there's no so much choice after all.
You see? Now Linux is innovating, and Microsoft is ripping off its new features!
My first program:
Hell Segmentation fault
A software with a pretend licence which are permenantely owned by you is actually a sales and you OWN it and can resell it. So. Yeah.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
It's Internet Explorer 4.0 / Windows 98 all over again!
After repeated failed attempts to contact the mass-mailing house(s) that send me my recycling each week (in the form of coupons, circulars, etc. in my mailbox), I spoke with a Post Office clerk.
Who told me, in effect: "They pay us too much to stop sending that stuff."
In other words, money is money, and most companies take whatever is there for the taking ... because (they say, oh so reasonably) "We can't afford to *not* take the money".
-kgj
I know it's a bit off-topic, but I feel similary pissed off when I'm subjected to television ads before a watching a movie at a theatre. Maybe it's because I'm old enough to remember when this wasn't the case, but I consider it outrageous to be subjected to ads after paying for an expensive ticket and overpriced refreshments.
The first time a TV ad appeared, we should have thrown our drinks at the screen and tore the stuffing out of the seats, but we're too docile here in Canada to riot unless there's a hockey game involved.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Actually it's a button click. You can set it for the current browser, or to apply account-wide if you sign in with your live account.
No, that's not how things work.
Without Adblock,
User requests a piece of content -> Firefox uses content policies to determine how and whether a request should be sent -> Firefox checks the local browser cache for the file -> Firefox requests the DNS record for the domain in question -> The OS parses the local DNS cache (the hosts file should be preloaded)-> finds address 0.0.0.0, returns that to Firefox.
Adblock stops that process at step 2. Hosts would be faster IFF Adblock adds more overhead to the content policy process than it would take to actually make the request.
I took a minute to actually test this.
Atom netbook, Linux, Firefox 17 beta, Adblock Plus, Firebug, Mozilla's internal DNS/file cache disabled, hosts file 34 lines long:
Normal DNS name resolution: 3 ms.
With hosts blocking : 3 ms.
With Adblock : 0 ms.
A larger hosts file would of course increase the time taken for DNS resolution.
Not only this, but it can also filter parts of addresses (e.g. filter example.com/badcontent but not example.com/goodcontent). You can filter all sorts of things with regexes that are completely impossible with naive blacklists, like blocking content based on its type.
Your A, B, C, D list is all handled by a DNS caching server. Do note, this is not the same thing as the built-in local DNS cache, so your comments are really completely off-base.
DNS caching servers may be a bit more complex, but again they're also more useful: they work for any device that supports TCP/IP networking. The one I am using weighs in at a hefty 39.9 kilobytes. How big is your implementation?
A "plain" manually updated hosts file is going to be larger in itself than any other form of blacklisting. Even so, you might have an argument still by virtue of simplicity. When you start updating it with a script, you've just tossed all that out the window: your software performs the exact same function as a dns caching server, except badly, with more resources, and less flexibility.
The fundamental weakness of hosts is that you can't do regexes, and you cannot enumerate all malicious domains. It is difficult to strictly compare the performance of string matching (hosts) versus regular expressions (DNS, ABP). A small hosts file would have a chance of beating the other solutions, in theory. In practice, not so much, and by the time we get to multi-megabyte hosts files, you're pretty much screwed for performance.
Are we done here?
Those who advocate genocide deserve every protection afforded by law, and none afforded by common human decency.
Thanks, you don't need Win 8 for that. I just opted out on my live account for all PCs/browsers I use.
You can't moderate and post on the same topic, dipshit.
You have this hilarious persecution complex, where you think all ACs are the same person, and the moderators *must* be sockpuppets of the same people who disagree with you.
If you really think I've been modding you down somehow, even though the site doesn't allow that, then you should write to the site admins and report me. They should be able to correlate the IPs and determine whether I've been sockpuppeting. I invite you to do this, because I am damn sure of what they would turn up.
And no, no one has the time to use separate proxies just for the pleasure of downmodding you. Basically you're the only one who is that much of a crazy asshole, and you're projecting onto everyone else.
Those who advocate genocide deserve every protection afforded by law, and none afforded by common human decency.
since I use a desktop and have no use for Metro. I use Classic shell which returns a fully customizable 'normal' start menu to Windows 8.
"..One hosts to look them up, one DNS to find them, and in the darkness BIND them."
Back when Microsoft decided to turn Do Not Track 'on' by default in IE, I was one of those who applauded them and defended their actions. But now, the paranoid conspiracy theorist in me is feeling like a sucker, 'cause I'm thinking maybe MS wanted Do Not Track activated for the majority of its users so they could suck up more ad revenue from their own freshly-minted built-in ad trackers.
Assholes... It seems that every time I get the feeling Microsoft isn't 'all that bad' they pull something like this. So this time I'm writing them off for good. MS could donate all of their assets and income to the poor, and I'd still suspect them of continuing to be unreformed slime-sucking bottom feeders.
'The Economy' is a giant Ponzi scheme whose most pitiable suckers are the youngest among us and the yet-unborn.
This would be a lot funnier if you'd chosen a distro that doesn't include ads in its default configuration (Amazon referrals on search, etc.)
There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
Did you actually read the linked article (not the /. circle-jerk of MS bashing, though the relevant info comes up there too if you look hard enough)? It's a Windows Defender protection against domains that are commonly embedded in other pages being redirected. It's also easy to turn off; either whitelist the Hosts file or simply disable Defender (though in that case you'll probably want to install a third-party AV).
There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
These apps are optional (pre-installed but trivial to remove) and are basically just a different way of presenting the info that you could get from the relevant web sites... which, shockingly enough, also feature ads. Go figure. That stuff isn't free.
There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
Yeah, or ads for Apple :)
-- You are in a maze of little, twisty passages, all different... --
Fact the first: Adverts within an application consume display space, and in smaller screens, this becomes more apparent.
Most of the ads in question are innocuous. For example, in the weather app, the single ad is after all the relevant data, past monthly averages. You don't see any ads in the forecast or radar. Same with the finance app. I use these apps without ever seeing ads.
Fact the second: Adverts require that you be a bit more careful with your mouse/finger/stylus/whatever, lest you accidentally click on the advert and interrupt what you're doing (especially if you're playing a game or other activity that has a high chance of random clickage).
True. But again most of the ads are not embedded in content. If you're concerned about a free game with ads, perhaps consider paying money for the paid version of said game. Nothing is really free.
Fact the third: Ads in paid-for/included applications, delivered by the OS maker, cannot be rationalized, especially since the competition does no such thing.
Apps like news and sports republish content from 200+ sources, and Microsoft likely needs to pay a good portion of these. The same goes for free music streaming in the Music app. Want to listen to full albums for free? Then you have to listen to or watch an occasional ad. There's really no good ground to complain about advertisements in places like this. No other OS maker does this because no other OS maker offers similar services like free music streaming.
Fact the fourth:: Even if you do not use it (them), you are stuck with the application(s) residing on your hard drive, taking up space, and potentially running in the background, which would consume both CPU and networking bandwidth.
No you are not. You can uninstall any of the included apps. If you don't want to, you can restrict which apps run in the background right in the control panel on a per app basis. Further, all apps by default have a very strict list of services they can access while backgrounded. I can't think of any app which would serve ads while backgrounded except the music app, which loads ads between streaming tracks.
Fact the fifth: You as a consumer were not made aware of this intrusion until after you purchased the item, and since it is software, good luck getting a refund on it from either OEM or OS maker.
Every single app with advertisements is free and can be uninstalled easily (You don't even need to go to the control panel. Just right click -> uninstall). You as the consumer paid nothing for these apps, and in fact one would hope that the cost of their development and maintenance is completely offset by ads they serve. You're not being "intruded on" in any way... it's not as if there are ads in the file manager between your files, or in your local desktop searches (unlike Ubuntu)
OK, I'll buy that excuse, but isn't it about time you paid for your copy of Windows 98? :D
-- You are in a maze of little, twisty passages, all different... --
Eventually you just break your contract / pay full price for a new phone or switch providers for a deal. Either way, those background apps cannot be turned off without uninstalling or rooting... or fremium apps that muck around with settings that should be user-accessible. Hate that this is bleeding into desktop land now
There have been ads in software you pay for for a long time. I think various home versions of racing games had different paid ads on billboards for different versions.
Even Pole Position in the arcade had real brands on the billboards.
(BTW, I hate "regular" TV ads and avoid them with a passion, but the ads in the various Zynga iPhone games I play are either tolerable (static ads) or annoying but not bad enough to get me to pay even a piddly $.99 yet (the video ads that play for a few seconds until you can skip them). Product placement in TV shows rarely bugs me, and live ads in podcasts can even be entertaining, but I still skip the canned ads before/after them that show up on some podcasts.)
Or that EULAs actually matter globally.
A legally binding text INSIDE the box I'm buying? You guys are hilarious. Vote yourself some sane customer protection laws next time.
Of course it runs NetBSD. BTC: 1NT7QvbetmANwaMzhpVL6
I would except it's our only Windows machine, and every once in a blue moon you need Windows.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
I ran benchmarks. Adblock is faster. Requests that are not generated by the browser are faster than ones that are and resolve locally in the hosts file. The language being executed makes zero difference.
This is how Microsoft says DNS works. The ironic part is how you go through all these contortions to make sure that hosts is resident in RAM, when it would be anyway if you just used the Windows DNS Client.
You're totally ignorant, it seems, of how Firefox operates internally. What I outlined was exactly correct. Firefox handles a number of different types of content, such as http, https, ftp, ssh, images, javascript, etc. Before it goes to find something, it determines how it should do that. It parses the request. Is this a file? is it local ("file://") or remote? ("http://"). This is the stage that Adblock interrupts. The next stage would be Firefox asking the OS's host name resolution system for the IP address. Resolving a null address takes longer -- as benchmarked -- than not making the request at all.
Your DNS caching server can run on the same hardware as your browser, it doesn't have to be remote -- or complicated. Windows being Windows, people have easy solutions for this. Again, your program is just a bad example of one -- it's not that difficult to use is it? If you can make a simple product, then someone who knows what they're doing can too.
Regexes. Let's see if we can fill this vast gulf of your ignorance. So you want to block
baddomain.com, baddomain.net, baddomain.xxx etc.
A request comes in. You want to know if it is a domain that you should be blocking. If you are doing string matching (as in a hosts file), you must check entries in your list until you find it. You make N comparisons, and either find it or exhaust the list.
If you are using a regex (e.g. baddomain.*), you make one comparison.
For short lists, string comparison can be faster. If you're parsing more than a kilobyte, you should probably think about regexes. Megabytes are no contest. I can provide benchmarks for that too.
So, you have my benchmarks. How big is this program of yours? How many cpu cycles does it use? Does it take more or less time than 0 ms to block a request? How big is your hosts file?
I get the feeling that you've never actually tested any of this, and are just going by your gut feeling.
Stop with your A, B, C list.
A) a local DNS caching server will do the exact same thing. Because it is the exact same thing.
B) a local DNS caching server will affect all webapps and all other devices on the local network. You just have a shitty version.
C) See A.
D) See A.
E) See A, also see benchmark it before you claim it's faster.
F) If you can access the hosts file on those devices, if it exists. See B.
And really, you're smoking something if you think the IP stack isn't being rewritten regularly. IPv6 ring a bell? DNSSEC? Networks have changed since the 80s. You don't understand how or why.
You have zero evidence that this actually works the way you think. None. Most of what you've said is factually wrong, even the parts where you try to call me out. You don't have any idea what the network stack looks like, or how it's actually being used. I have more than a sneaking suspicion that you've never configured a non-home network. Or a server.
You're not going to convince anyone with testimonials. Show some numbers. I don't want to hear bullshit about how many people suck your dick, or how bulletproof your systems are. If you can't prove your claims with actual numbers, you're just a loudmouthed excuse for a script kiddie.
Face it -- you're not even a mediocrity. You're just a laughingstock. Your complete lack of wit is painfully obvious to everyone on every forum that you troll.
Those who advocate genocide deserve every protection afforded by law, and none afforded by common human decency.
Why would Symbian be counted in the smartphone market for the purpose of U.S. antitrust law? Symbian has never had a real presence in the U.S. market to my knowledge. And why would Android be counted among lawful competitors if a jury has found that Android infringes patents? It'd be like saying marijuana competes with tobacco.
every once in a blue moon you need Windows.
I thought that was what VMs were for.
This is an ex-parrot!
No, Adblock does not parse the webpage first. It blocks the request before the networking stack even gets involved. Get that one through the mass of granite that passes for your mind.
We're talking about two small pieces of software that both do one thing very well. That whole Unix concept, you know? Versus your hosts file and associated updating program, which are both larger and slower than their equivalent replacements.
If you don't know how to benchmark DNS requests, what the hell are you doing writing a DNS caching server?
Firefox's web engine keeps statistics on how long DNS requests take. So do most other browsers. Do three tests:
Repeat 10x. A small hosts file was only 3ms slower per request; I shudder to think what yours is like.
You keep mentioning "indexing". Maybe because it's a concept you're familiar with. It has nothing to do with anything being discussed, except in your mind.
How big is your app? How big is your hosts file? How can you say that other solutions consume more resources if you don't now how much you use?
Adblock is faster. So is a real DNS cache. The combination is more secure -- you can block far more things far more easily. That is, everything that you can do with a hosts file, plus many things that you can't.
My accomplishments include being able to read documentation and come up with numbers that prove that you've been completely wrong about this for what, a decade now? Hell, you can't even read my posts, you keep repeating the same busted ideas over and over again. I've given you links, benchmarks, and examples, and you've linked to your own posts and yelled a lot.
Really, everyone knows that you're a retarded troll, and let's face it, you know it too. When the windows desktop dies, you won't even have this rant any more.
Poor APK. The hosts file is the only thing he knows, and he doesn't even understand that. You know, that's sad. I feel bad, really I do. Like I was trying to take candy away from a special needs toddler.
Tell you what. I'll take these naughty benchmarks away, and then you can live in your little APK bubble with your little APK friends, and you and the hosts file can play together all day long!
Those who advocate genocide deserve every protection afforded by law, and none afforded by common human decency.
I find dual-boot and seldom-used VMs to be difficult to maintain. When you finally fire them up after months of non-use, they need a ton of updates. I prefer to just have one of my machines running Windows. Once I tried to start a cron job that let Windows run once in a while so it could update and stuff, but I guess I did it wrong because it ended up corrupting it's drive image and wouldn't boot. I rolled it back, but lost confidence in the whole process.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
But there existed directives to alter this behaviour
This was true of some but not all Microsoft BASIC interpreters. The one that Apple hired Microsoft to make for the Apple II ("Applesoft") did not have DEFSTR. On that BASIC, names of string variables were required to end in $.
Windows 8 Pro (which I have) has the ads. However, the ads are in a couple built-in apps, like Finance, not in the OS itself. The Finance app itself is actually pretty good, but it's really nothing more than a website with a Metro layout. The main problem I see with it, beyond ads, is that it's slow to load.
It's also in Windows 8 Enterprise.
You'll notice, the ads are all on MSN related pages (Weather, Finance, News, etc..). This is because they link to the website (which has ads). Msn does not earn its paycheck from sales of Windows 8, they get their paycheck from ad revenue, so MSN is just trying to get their services paid for.
If you need web hosting, you could do worse than here
No doubt that knowledge would make me appreciate the ads more.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
That is what your script is.
Except by using the hosts file, you screw yourself out of being able to use it to manage the whole network. Among other failures.
I asked some random tech, "What do you call a program that manages DNS entries?"
"A DNS server."
So, I'm going to look at your solution and compare it to other DNS servers. Hmm. Looks like it's broken, featureless, and bloated beyond belief.
With that in mind, #10 is pretty irrelevant. Oh, hey look. Windows DNS software with a nice GUI. I bet it doesn't do anything retarded like load an ASCII file into memory -- you literally double the size needed to represent IP addresses that way (8 bytes ASCII vs 4 bytes hex). But hey, features, performance, and a simple GUI aren't everything, right? Why have it all when you can have software by APK!
And for those of us who are actually paying attention, yes, Adblock can be configured to allow unobtrusive ads. It can also be configured not to do so, and I have. Further, since it's open-source, I've gone through the code and verified that that toggle actually does what it says. I have no problem forking the code if that ever changes.
Keep in mind, this is the same list you keep presenting, and I keep giving variations on the same answer. You have this one toy hammer, and this one nail, and you can't imagine that the rest of the world figured out DNS. No, the entire world must be wrong, and the 40-year-old solution is the still the best technology, and you are the only one who knows this. IT organizations around the world are waiting for you to swoop down on them and save them.
But man, that SimpleDNS program really looks...simple! And look at its impressive feature list -- I bet you don't know what half of those things are even for! I'm sure you'll get around to supporting those things any day now though. Your app has...uh...well.
Oh yes, that's right. The power of delusion!
Those who advocate genocide deserve every protection afforded by law, and none afforded by common human decency.
I doubt it. I was merely explaining the reasons for the ads here. Anything MSN or XBOX based has ads, while nothing else does.
If you don't like the ads, don't use those apps.
If you need web hosting, you could do worse than here
So, I now have to visit a web site to configure my computer?
Your post is informative in so many different ways.
They spent up big in the 70s and 80s promoting funding for research into multiple sclerosis 'MS', for a condition that affects the brain, something really important to geeks and nerds.
Of course the difference between multiple sclerosis and Microsoft is that one is a debilitating and surprisingly widespread affliction that renders the sufferer barely able to perform the simplest task, and the other is a medical condition.
So M$ is Microsoft and MSN is Microsoft Networks but MS is multiple sclerosis.
And M$N is the peso moneda nacional, a former currency of Argentina.
Adblock can do #2 and #8, and it should not do these other things. When I want to fuck with my DNS, I'll use a tool designed for the job, not your broken and featureless hosts nonsense. And did I mention bloated? You have a tenth of the features for thousands of times more CPU and memory usage.
You don't need programming ability to use Adblock either -- I don't even bother to configure it, just install and forget about it. If an ad slips through, I right click on it and select "block this with AdBlock." It doesn't get easier than that.
Your silence on the subject of DNS servers is pretty telling. Really this hosts nonsense is just your complete ignorance of what the rest of the world uses DNS for, and how they do that. You don't understand CNAMES and AAA records, and so you've kludged your way through to something that *almost* a DNS server.
There's a colossal and impotent arrogance about you. Ozymandias is really quite perfect: You don't know how to learn from others -- it's vaguely impressive that you've managed to teach yourself anything. You don't even know how to process the idea that other people solved DNS years ago, because you have a solution.
It's probably an attitude that served you well in the 80s, when computers were an arcane art and there weren't any resources other than yourself. Today, if I have a problem, I can immediately find out how other people solved it. I would never try to write a script to update a hosts file, because people smarter than I am solved that issue and there are thirty or forty software packages that do that. Those smart people have moved on to other things like DNSSEC and automatically securing email.
Thirty years ago, using a hosts file was a good idea. Twenty years ago we replaced it with something better, but it was still useful. Ten years ago it was completely outmatched for the task. Today it is thoroughly obsolete and only ever in fringe cases. Ten years from now it won't be used at all, and in twenty years it will be entirely forgotten. "...Nothing beside remains."
With that in mind, here's a (partial) list of what hosts can't do:
Hosts can't block part of a domain.
Hosts can't block files based on content (e.g. swf or java applet).
One hosts file does not affect other computers on the same LAN (see also "shitty DNS server").
Hosts can't be changed from within the browser.
Hosts cannot block entire top-level-domains (*.ru), you have to use a Fully-Qualified Domain Name (FQDN).
Hosts cannot block things that are not explicitly listed in the hosts file.
Hosts can't return actual DNS records, only IP addresses. This can increase the number of DNS queries needed.
Hosts can't easily be edited remotely. You can do it with Powershell on a LAN, but not otherwise.
Your solution of logon scripts only works for windows computers. Real useful, that. How is it better than normal DNS propagation? Only in looney-land.
Hosts is vulnerable to DNS cache poisoning, MITM attacks, and denial-of-service attacks.
Hosts can't allow a domain but block cookies.
Being a simple file, hosts is an easy target for viruses and malware. Do you know if something has been added to it? I actually have mine under source control, but I'm not using windows and it's more of a byproduct.
Hosts can't point a single domain to multiple IP addresses.
In most systems, most of the time, hosts will not have a positive effect on how fast your favorite websites load. Your browser and the Windows DNS Client Service already have caches. As mentioned in the previous post (the microsoft.com article), when the WDNSCS is enabled, the hosts file is parsed into memory; the OS doesn't actually touch the file for every request. This can be verified by checking the access time. Other operating systems behave identically.
Hosts can't redirect one host name to another host name.
And I've mentioned it before, but it's pretty im
Those who advocate genocide deserve every protection afforded by law, and none afforded by common human decency.
No. Metro is there because MS want to be a mobile phone OS company -- that is where the money is in the future. However, no third smartphone OS can be successful because of the App problem: there are no apps until the app developers see customers, and there are no customers until they can download apps. So, MS had this great idea: force every Windows PC user to use the same interface as their new phone OS. Create a ready built large market for app developers and so get a lot of apps developed quickly, ready for the phone users.
I hate MS as much as the next guy on /. but I have to admit this is a brilliant way to solve the problem that brought down Nokia and surmount the barriers to entry erected by Apple and Google.
Thanks - opted out now :D
What is a "live account", and why would I want (or need) one?
Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
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