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Bradley Manning Wants To Live As a Woman

Hugh Pickens DOT Com writes "Reuters reports that Bradley Manning, the U.S. soldier sentenced to 35 years in military prison for the biggest breach of classified documents in the nation's history, says he is female and wants to live as a woman named Chelsea. 'As I transition into this next phase of my life, I want everyone to know the real me. I am Chelsea Manning, I am a female,' Manning, 25, said in the statement read by anchorwoman Savannah Guthrie on NBC News' "Today" show. 'Given the way that I feel and have felt since childhood, I want to begin hormone therapy as soon as possible,' Manning said. 'I also request that starting today you refer to me by my new name and use the feminine pronoun.' A psychiatrist, Navy Reserve Captain David Moulton, testified during Manning's trial that Manning suffered from gender dysphoria, or wanting to be the opposite sex, as well as narcissism and obsessive-compulsive disorder."

442 of 784 comments (clear)

  1. Hormone therapy? by brian0918 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Will they really provide that in prison?

    1. Re:Hormone therapy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Oh look - a prison rape joke - and modded up no less.

      How sad is it that prison rape and rape in general is such a joke in the US that one of the first comments on any forum when somebody talks about prisoner well-being is that they not drop the soap, because HA-HA some maleficent goon might RAPE them?

      Shocking as it may be to you, Alen, rape is not a part of prisoner reformation standards, gender dysphoria is a real thing, and jokes about forced sex aren't all that funny.

    2. Re: Hormone therapy? by realityimpaired · · Score: 1

      Theoretically requires a Netflix subscription, so possibly not.

      But to answer the question he asked more seriously... probably not going to get hormone therapy in a US prison. Can apply for special dispensation or house arrest, where such medical care would be possible, but, especially considering that Manning hasn't started taking HRT yet (so the current status quo doesn't pose a medical/health risk), it's very unlikely that Manning will be given that kind of treatment in the US penal system.

    3. Re:Hormone therapy? by TWiTfan · · Score: 1, Informative

      No. But if they keep you in solitary confinement long enough, torture you, taunt you, threaten you, fuck with your head, and then promise you 35 more years of the same, generally turning you into a raving lunatic (which suits their purposes perfectly)--it is just the kind of crazy shit you'll ask for.

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    4. Re:Hormone therapy? by madhatter256 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Yes. So as to avoid cruel and unusual punishment at a constitutional level, prisons have to provide adequate health care. Hell, it's worth it, you can get free chemo therapy, heart surgery, etc. Just recently, a judge struck down a law in Wisconsin that prohibited hormone therapy for inmates because it was unconstitutional.

      http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/89751122.html

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    5. Re:Hormone therapy? by i+kan+reed · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yes because the 8th amendment is an inconvenient obstacle for official justice. Just a reminder that your position puts you on the side of a murderer.

    6. Re:Hormone therapy? by Salgak1 · · Score: 4, Informative

      No. The Armed Forces do not provide Gender Reassignment therapy or surgery. For at least the next 7 or so years, he/she's S.O.L. And then he/she's going to have to find a way to pay for it: it's not cheap (I have a friend who went f->m ) and he/she's going to have problems getting a job with a Dishonorable Discharge. . .

    7. Re:Hormone therapy? by brian0918 · · Score: 1

      Answering my own question:

      "U.S. Army says it does not provide hormones or sex-reassignment surgery after Wikileaks convict Bradley Manning says he wants to live as a woman"

    8. Re:Hormone therapy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Mod parent a TROLL, not funny. I really do like the word-play, but I don't think this deserves anything else.

      After reading the comments section of CNN for this story, I'm already severely disheartened that, despite that the attitudes for gays has greatly improved, comments with over 700 net positive upvotes over there say he should also serve 35 years as a prisoner within what he perceives to be a wrong body as an additional punishment.

      At first I thought Manning's sudden announcement of gender identity was a ploy, but if it was mentioned in court documents prior to the case and discharge proceedings, I sympathize for this person. I know individuals who rather chose to kill themselves then reveal the(ir perceived) shame of their gender identity.

      Considering how easy it seems to get into prison these days in the US, I am not particularly finding these rape jokes very funny anymore either.

    9. Re:Hormone therapy? by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 2, Interesting

      and he/she's going to have problems getting a job with a Dishonorable Discharge. . .

      with millions of supporters, this seems highly unlikely.

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    10. Re:Hormone therapy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Many poor have no choice but to join the military in the United States, FYI. Since college has become the "high heels" competitive advantage for business (and similarly, everyone is now required to get a degree despite it being a severe financial burden, that for 10% of the population cannot even find a job to repay..), most individuals only recourse is to join the military to try to pay for college.

      As for it being a "boy's club" only, I thought that has been changed for some time? Pilots, analysts, technicians, logistics personelle, there are a lot of jobs there. Aren't we even moving towards women being able to fight directly on the front line?

    11. Re:Hormone therapy? by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Hell, it's worth it, you can get free chemo therapy, heart surgery, etc

      So, if I'm uninsured and facing major narrowing of the arteries, I can go smoke a joint in a police station and get free heart surgery?

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    12. Re:Hormone therapy? by bickerdyke · · Score: 5, Insightful

      How sad is it that prison rape and rape in general is such a joke in the US that one of the first comments on any forum when somebody talks about prisoner well-being is that they not drop the soap, because HA-HA some maleficent goon might RAPE them?

      Tells us a lot about how the US prison system thinks of human dignity.

      --
      bickerdyke
    13. Re:Hormone therapy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      He says he's felt this way since childhood, seems to have discussed the issue at length with a psychologist while in the military, and even suggested that he had joined the military in the hopes that it would somehow cure him.

    14. Re:Hormone therapy? by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 1

      Yes.

      No.

      Actually, to be fair there's no actual source there, and it's followed up with a vaseline joke *rolleyes*

      --
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    15. Re:Hormone therapy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I think you'll find that Chelsea has far less support than Bradley.

    16. Re:Hormone therapy? by trum4n · · Score: 3, Funny

      Better than being on the side of a politician.

    17. Re:Hormone therapy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Yes. If they let you go with a warning for smoking the joint, punch one of them.

    18. Re:Hormone therapy? by Opportunist · · Score: 3, Funny

      Better than... umm...

      Ok, you won.

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    19. Re:Hormone therapy? by wisnoskij · · Score: 1

      I doubt it, but prisoners are renounced for their acceptance of men living as women. In fact being somewhat small and effeminate looking already, he probably would of been forced to live as a woman regardless of his choice.

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    20. Re:Hormone therapy? by wisnoskij · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Comedy is a legitimate form of social/political commentary.

      Everything is funny, everything should be discussed and criticize, and joking is a way to do that.

      --
      Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
    21. Re:Hormone therapy? by tnk1 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      In many cases, yes you can. There are probably rules around it, so something like a 90 day for possession isn't going to get you heart surgery, but if you were in for 35 years, you'd certainly get heart surgery. There are definitely people who try to get themselves thrown in jail for free medical care and food. Usually those are people who have already been there before and know the system, but it does happen.

      As for hormone therapy, I could have sworn I've heard of people getting that in jail before as well. Gender dysphoria is considered a legitimate psychological condition generally, so he'd have a case, but I don't know if it is life threatening or meets the usual criteria.

    22. Re:Hormone therapy? by Salgak1 · · Score: 2

      . . .but how many will remember it in 7 years ? Or get past HR, who tend to frown on things like a stint in prison and a dishonorable discharge. And even if he keeps his IT skills current (unlikely at Fort Leavenworth. . .) no employer will trust him for ANYTHING sensitive. . No, for the most part, his prospects look pretty dim for anything significant. . .

    23. Re:Hormone therapy? by MightyYar · · Score: 2

      comments with over 700 net positive upvotes over there say he should also serve 35 years as a prisoner within what he perceives to be a wrong body as an additional punishment.

      Most people are not aware that there is no effective treatment for people with gender identity problems. There is some mixed data regarding the effectiveness of reassignment surgery, but the general consensus seems to be that changing one's gender seems to be the only thing that helps keep these people from killing themselves. Once you have this conversation with people, they typically agree that it is the way to go, so don't get too upset with the CNN crowd - they aren't doctors and they aren't all caught up on gender disorders. All they see is an untreated crazy person.

      Humor is subjective. I have a very dark sense of humor, so I can empathize with people laughing about horrible things. I laughed the whole way through "The Increasingly Poor Decisions of Todd Margaret". Some of us cope with bad news through humor, it's our way of getting through a sometimes-terrible world without falling into depression.

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    24. Re:Hormone therapy? by inking · · Score: 1

      More importantly, would he be put into a female prison because of this? If so, the man is a genius.

    25. Re:Hormone therapy? by MightyYar · · Score: 4, Informative
      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    26. Re:Hormone therapy? by MightyYar · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's not a human right, but gender reassignment is the only treatment for gender identity problems. The rational thing to do is treat the prisoner appropriately, not hold back for some ideological reason.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    27. Re:Hormone therapy? by NatasRevol · · Score: 3, Informative

      Saw this on imgur yesterday - worlds worst prisons.

      http://imgur.com/gallery/gndRs

      Only two US prisons were on it.

      No prison thinks much of human dignity.

      --
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    28. Re:Hormone therapy? by NatasRevol · · Score: 1

      Whistle blowers of the military, rejoice!

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    29. Re:Hormone therapy? by firex726 · · Score: 1

      Yep, if you so much as question a woman about a rape accusation, no matter how outlandish; then you're branded a victim blaming misogynist. But prison rape jokes are A-OK!

      Think it's in part because, prison rape/all rape is generally bad; and the US has this mentality that prison should be more about making people as much as you can. Forget rehabilitation, and trying to make people a more productive member of society or showing them the error of their ways. What's really going to help is have some non-violent offender be sent to jail for years and raped by hardened criminals.

    30. Re:Hormone therapy? by JaredOfEuropa · · Score: 2

      My advice: don't try it before you knock it.

      --
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    31. Re:Hormone therapy? by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 2

      He'll be eligible for parole in seven years. It's unlikely that he'll serve the full 35.

    32. Re:Hormone therapy? by i+kan+reed · · Score: 1

      The hell it does, it puts me on the side of rule of law, you ignorant barbarian.

    33. Re:Hormone therapy? by dywolf · · Score: 3, Informative

      when you get the Big Chicken Dinner you become flat out ineligible for something like 45% of all jobs in the US. thats just the ones where its basically flat out regulated because they have ties or are involved with the government in some way. then theres the corproations where HR is going to see it say "nope", thats probably another 30-35%.

      The best options for people with the BCD basically boils down to small companies or friends without government ties/contracts, or entrepenaurship (which is itself hard, cause you gotta get customers, and some of them (such as against the governemnt and some big corps) have rules against who they will source from).

      the dishonorable discharge is no joke and very real burden to -anyone- who gets one.

      --
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    34. Re:Hormone therapy? by Velex · · Score: 4, Informative

      I know you're trolling, but attraction to women is fairly common in trans women. However, the desire to "be a lesbian" doesn't factor into the decision to undergo gender transition for the vast majority of trans women. All of the trans women I know have a horrible time of dating women and pretty much have to give up hope of finding a girlfriend after beginning transition. Additionally, they typically lose their current relationship if any in a spectacular explosion of drama.

      That's not to say that all trans women find women attractive. Some like me prefer men, which actually means additional soul searching before beginning transition and weighing alternatives such as adopting a homosexual identity.

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    35. Re:Hormone therapy? by Em+Adespoton · · Score: 4, Insightful

      How sad is it that prison rape and rape in general is such a joke in the US that one of the first comments on any forum when somebody talks about prisoner well-being is that they not drop the soap, because HA-HA some maleficent goon might RAPE them?

      Tells us a lot about how the US prison system thinks of human dignity.

      Tells us a lot more about how US citizens think of prisoner dignity. It's always seemed to me that to the vocal minority at least, and possibly the vast majority of Americans, people stop being human when they're locked up in Jail. Innocent until proven guilty, but once proven guilty (of anything), suddenly all human rights and freedoms go out the door, because nobody "normal" could be guilty of anything....

      I recommend that anyone making prison rape jokes go visit a few prisons and talk to people... inmates AND staff. Visit a few different places; low, medium, and high if they'll let you in.

    36. Re:Hormone therapy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      But if it's the same tired joke over and over again, only brought up out of confusion between successful rote memorization and creativity, that's... well... that's the majority of internet "humor" in a nutshell, I suppose...

    37. Re:Hormone therapy? by AlphaWolf_HK · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I'm a bit mystified as to why we do this. Hear me out:

      When people ask to have limbs amputated because the person feels that having the limb doesn't make them feel whole (strange how you don't feel whole until part of you is removed?! That and/or because they have a sexual fetish for amputated limbs,) modern medicine denies that request, considers it to be abhorrent, and any medical professional who obliges the request is jailed and/or has their license to practice revoked. The treatment for the above condition is the same as if the person had a mental illness, and the solution is to change thinking patterns rather than surgery.

      http://drmarkgriffiths.wordpress.com/2012/02/13/whats-your-crutch-the-bizarre-world-of-amputee-fetishes/

      Yet when they ask to have their genitals mutilated and hormones thrown so far out of whack to the point of permanently handicapping them to a degree, it is viewed as a human right, and in some cases this voluntary surgery must be provided for free by the government, and they are called brave in some circles? Worse is that today there is very little in the way of counseling done, and some half of them end up regretting it after the fact.

      http://www.experienceproject.com/stories/Want-To-Reverse-Sex-Reassignment-Surgery/1608417

      I'm not taking issue with transsexualism BTW, I'm taking issue with the idea that surgery is the answer.

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    38. Re:Hormone therapy? by sl4shd0rk · · Score: 2

      How sad is it that prison rape and rape in general is such a joke in the US

      By-product of people living a sheltered life or a comment by someone not old enough to know how difficult life can be.
      There's little room for empathy when you've never had a point of reference.

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    39. Re:Hormone therapy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Nope never said that. And a child murderer deserves probably to be put on a pike and die slowly.

    40. Re:Hormone therapy? by SleazyRidr · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "Only" two. Why is it that the US claims to be the best country in the world, but it comfortable sharing a list mainly populated by other shining examples of leading countries, such as North Korea, Thailand and Rwanda?

    41. Re:Hormone therapy? by NatasRevol · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Egotistical nationalism?

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    42. Re:Hormone therapy? by Em+Adespoton · · Score: 1

      and he/she's going to have problems getting a job with a Dishonorable Discharge. . .

      with millions of supporters, this seems highly unlikely.

      Actually, it seems to me that the gender change request lines him/her up for a possible book once (s)he's out. There's probably movie rights to be sold too.

    43. Re:Hormone therapy? by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      wow. Thanks for the link.

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    44. Re:Hormone therapy? by Seumas · · Score: 1

      It's okay to joke about rape, because he's a dude.

      Well.. shit, wait...

    45. Re:Hormone therapy? by gtall · · Score: 1

      I guess you didn't get the memo, Eric Holder has announced an initiative to reduce prison sentences and to have non-violent offenders sentenced to other penance rather than prison. Even that arch conservative Richard Viguerie is on board as well as a lot of Republican DAs.

      Mostly this is being driven by cost, prison is expensive. However, many of the proponents are well aware that sending up young non-violent offenders make them into violent offenders when they get out. I recall one conservative fellow saying that the U.S. should lock up the people society is scared of, not the people society doesn't like.

    46. Re: Hormone therapy? by Crimey+McBiggles · · Score: 1

      Ummm... last I checked, that show isn't a documentary, it's an original fiction series.

      --
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    47. Re:Hormone therapy? by taiwanjohn · · Score: 4, Informative

      part of humor is taking controversial things and making fun of them

      Another important part of humor is originality and creativity. Prison-rape jokes lost all hope of either many years ago. The GP was not making fun of rape, he was making fun of the rape victim.

      In a democracy, We The People are responsible for the ethical treatment of inmates. It's one thing to laugh at a random "FAIL" video on YouTube, quite another to laugh at the horrid abuse of people who could EASILY be protected if we took a few simple measures to change how our prisons are managed.

      http://www.justdetention.org/

      Don't forget, a quarter of the prison population is there for non-violent drug offenses. It's not the rapists who get raped in prison (ie: people who might justifiably deserve it), it's the weak ones who get victimized.

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    48. Re:Hormone therapy? by Crimey+McBiggles · · Score: 1

      You're suggesting that they pulled the ol' Turing act on him. I don't suspect this to be the case, as there were already reports of him seeking psychological care for gender identity disorder before even joining the military.

      --
      Crimey
    49. Re:Hormone therapy? by X0563511 · · Score: 1

      Really? You'd prefer they kill the children instead? I mean, if you have to take a side and "not rapists, pedophiles, OR murderes" was not an option...

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    50. Re:Hormone therapy? by Crimey+McBiggles · · Score: 1

      I think you'll find Chelsea merely has different supporters than Bradley, not fewer.

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    51. Re:Hormone therapy? by gtall · · Score: 3, Informative

      No, he's eligible for parole in 1/3 of 35 years. He's eligible for pardon in 7 years.

    52. Re:Hormone therapy? by X0563511 · · Score: 1

      Tells us more about how convicted criminals think of human dignity.

      Or would it be better for their dignity to lock them down and have a guard wash them?

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    53. Re:Hormone therapy? by Joce640k · · Score: 1

      ...and guess what. There's hardly any rape in those prisons.

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    54. Re:Hormone therapy? by Velex · · Score: 5, Informative
      Came here for this.

      Yet when they ask to have their genitals mutilated and hormones thrown so far out of whack to the point of permanently handicapping them to a degree, it is viewed as a human right

      So delicious.

      Because she (Manning) was presumably born in the USA, her genitals were likely already mutilated at birth. Secondly, the organ between your ears also has gender just the same as the organ between your legs. The process of HRT brings one's hormone levels in line with normal female levels, so I don't understand why you think anything is going "out of whack."

      I used to experience very painful headaches on a weekly basis before I started estrogen HRT. Apparently, that's not an uncommon experience. There's definitely something going on, although research is admittedly lacking (there was a study I can't seem to find again that was able to use MRI to determine brain sex in 75% of individuals in the study).

      Worse is that today there is very little in the way of counseling done, and some half of them end up regretting it after the fact.

      Sorry, a link to Experience Project isn't evidence, and there have been many flawed, biased studies on the subject to boot, sort of like the studies that back up the practice of routine infant male genital mutilation in the USA.

      I'm not taking issue with transsexualism BTW, I'm taking issue with the idea that surgery is the answer.

      Yes, you are, because not all trans women undergo bottom surgery. Bottom surgery is a personal choice and not a requirement to live as a woman or get an ID as a woman, although it may be a requirement in certain states in order to amend or change one's birth certificate.

      If you're really as rational as you're trying to present yourself as being, I'd recommend the book Whipping Girl by Julia Serano.

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    55. Re:Hormone therapy? by Trailer+Trash · · Score: 1

      To be fair, one of them is the ADX Florence Supermax Prison which is a "nice" prison compared to others on the list. They put it there due to the inmates being isolated, but the only people who get sent there (so far) are the so-called "worst of the worst" - people like Ted Kaczinski. I'm very against bad prison conditions but I have no problem with that one in its current usage.

      As for Rikers Island I have no doubt it's awful. I would, however, question its inclusion on that list. Look at the picture and compare to the others - it doesn't fit.

    56. Re:Hormone therapy? by kno3 · · Score: 5, Informative

      Only two US prisons were on it.

      I think you need to work on your counting skills. I counted 4 current US prisons and one closed (Alcatraz) out of a total of 20.
      25% is extremely bad given the US's self perceived high ground in all things moral. Remember this includes the entire world, most of which is comparatively very poor and lacks the resources to do much better.
      That said, imgur is hardly a reputable source and the list has clearly been skewed by US prison's notoriety in the west. I'm sure there are far worse out there.

      No prison thinks much of human dignity.

      I refer you to Norway: http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1989083,00.html
      Only fools support prisons that ignore the dignity of the prisoners. If you actually want to help society, you support and protect those that need it the most.

    57. Re:Hormone therapy? by Firethorn · · Score: 5, Informative

      some deep rooted psychological scar from being in the armed forces.

      I'm going to say that he was screwed up before ever entering the military; being in the military certainly didn't help though. One of the signs was that he was placed in a discharge unit. If his commanding officers had made the call he would have been kicked out and be free to transition today.

      Please note: I'm active duty and have an openly gay married* commander. I won't say that he hasn't had problems in his career, it having very much started during 'don't ask don't tell', but he hasn't been having problems with us.

      But at the same time I'm NOT going to make like the military is some utopia for trans people. It's much better for gay people, but I would state that as a category the US military is currently NOT a place you want to be if you want to transition. Bradley Manning will probably not be allowed to transition during his time at Leavenworth. The DoD just doesn't have any measures to allow it, which means that people would have to take the effort to do so.

      As a general matter, if you want to transition and you're in the military, your best option is to keep quiet and let your enlistment run out. If you're really desperate, there are a number of ways to get out quicker. A bit tougher since DADT ended, but there are still ways. You might lose some benefits, but there's plenty of things you can do where the military will decide to discharge you to be rid of you and not do much else.

      (BTW, I go by a '2 out of 3' standard: mental, physical outward, and DNA; he hasn't started transition yet so he's still a he).

      *I wrote it this way because I've known gay people who married the opposite gender for various reasons.

      --
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    58. Re:Hormone therapy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You ever been raped? You ignorant asshole.

      Why do you think so many rape victims commit suicide? Even after months or years of therapy and trying to forget?

      At least if the person is killed, the torment is over.

      This comment, and a few above, is from someone who knows what it feels like to have someone's dick inside them against their will. Also, someone who has contemplated suicide, as well as mass murder.

      I certainly wish my attacker had been raped in prison, and then killed, so my tax dollars doesn't keep him alive.

      If you can't appreciate that, you obviously have no experience in the subject, and can take your self-righteous indignation and shove it up your ass.

    59. Re:Hormone therapy? by Kleen13 · · Score: 1

      In Canada I heard that Corrections is required to continue medications and treatments that was initiated prior to them beginning their sentence.

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    60. Re:Hormone therapy? by NatasRevol · · Score: 1

      From your link:
      "None of the windows at Halden have bars"

      That's not a remotely typical prison.

      The prisoners make their own meals. In a typical prison, that would result in 125 dead of stab wounds.

      --
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    61. Re:Hormone therapy? by NatasRevol · · Score: 3, Informative

      Just lots of suicide because of complete isolation.

      --
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    62. Re:Hormone therapy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      But the law used to say hang the murderers and rapists. The murderers and rapists are the barbarians.

      Now you want rape victims to not only pay for their rapists' food and shelter, but also face the likelihood that they will have to face them in court repeatedly every time some bleeding heart idiot like you thinks the rapists were mistreated, or claim their civil rights were violated because of some courtroom technicality.

    63. Re:Hormone therapy? by spire3661 · · Score: 1

      Its pretty much equivalent to a felony.

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    64. Re:Hormone therapy? by spire3661 · · Score: 1

      It comes up in EVERY discussion about prison. MANY people feel that its perfectly ok for prisoners to rape each other.

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    65. Re:Hormone therapy? by VortexCortex · · Score: 2

      How sad is it that prison rape and rape in general is such a joke in the US that one of the first comments on any forum when somebody talks about prisoner well-being is that they not drop the soap, because HA-HA some maleficent goon might RAPE them?

      It is quite sad, but you fail at comedy.

      Shocking as it may be to you, Alen, rape is not a part of prisoner reformation standards, gender dysphoria is a real thing, and jokes about forced sex aren't all that funny.

      You are incorrect. Humor is subjective. Gender dysphoria exists, but so does male pattern baldness, habitual lying, codependency, and a host of other non-life-threatening issues that prisons do not generally treat -- It makes such punishments all the more heinous, IMO, and what they label "rehabilitation" laughable. Additionally, in order to protect prisons from prisoner's suing over systemic rape, they have begun instituting a reformation: Prisoners are now required to sign a waiver acknowledging that they accept the threat of rape exists, and won't sue the prison if they get raped.

      You might not think that's funny, but it is to me. I have a very dark and twisted sense of humor. Laughing at something doesn't mean that I think the issue less serious -- That's a false dichotomy. You must have never been to a comedy club if you think serious issues can't be joked about, and more frequently the more prevalent and serious the problem. See also: The slew of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" jokes, and the current rash of NSA spying jokes.

      E.g.: Mars One, because: Who the hell wants to live in a cramped shithole with no freedom or privacy where you're doomed to die an early death when you could do all that on Mars too?

    66. Re:Hormone therapy? by master_kaos · · Score: 1

      wow that list is shit. Seriously scroll down the screen quickly and you can instantly tell which 2 are the US prisons, they don't even deserve to be on the list.
      Also that guy is horrible at writing, he wrote "worst prison" for every single one.

    67. Re:Hormone therapy? by Em+Adespoton · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I suggest you go to a rape counseling center, and ask the women there is they care that the man who raped them may face the possibility of being raped in prison.

      Go ask an adult survivor of child abuse if they feel upset that their uncle/father/priest/etc may be subjected to rape in prison.

      Keep a running tally of which one are as horrified as you are, and which one feel it is the least that should happen to them. Report back here when you are done.

      Done that; there are some people who have been so traumatized that even the subject of rape to anyone causes them to wall themselves off. There are others who consider their attackers so inhuman for doing the things they did that they take vindictive pleasure in the concept of their attacker being subjected to what they dished out. There are others who have healed more, who just want it all to stop, and share the same sadness (not horror) that this is perpetuated in prison.

      You see, most of those rapists in prison, if you dig into their past, were sexually abused themselves. Being sexually abused seems to snap something in the brain that allows you to easily see people as "not human". Recovering from that is extremely difficult, and some people turn to a life of crime/abuse as their coping mechanism.

      So my original point stands: it says something about the perspective US citizens (or at least some vocal minorities as I said) have on human dignity. Dehumanization never ends well; forgiveness is MUCH tougher (and some things may never be fully forgiven, especially if the person never really showed any regret or sorrow about what they did), but it's the best way to break the chain.

    68. Re:Hormone therapy? by AlecC · · Score: 4, Interesting

      So, if I'm uninsured and facing major narrowing of the arteries, I can go smoke a joint in a police station and get free heart surgery?

      Yes. Somebody did that, Not smoking a joint, but a totally and obviously incompetent armed bank robbery. Go to bank with unloaded gun, hand over "give me the money" note, then drop the gun and surrender. He reckoned that he would have more life after getting out with his medical conditions treated than staying out and dying soon, and uncomfortably, from untreated conditions.

      --
      Consciousness is an illusion caused by an excess of self consciousness.
    69. Re:Hormone therapy? by tnk1 · · Score: 4, Informative

      And that's just a Bad Conduct Discharge, which isn't actually a Dishonorable. An actual Dishonorable is much, much worse. Assuming you didn't get it as a result of a felony, you might as well have committed a felony for all the trouble you are going to have making a living when you get out. With a BCD, you forfeit benefits, with a DD, you are equivalent to an actual civil felon in many states AND you are not permitted to own a firearm by Federal law.

      Still, Manning is probably going to have a few more options than most DDs get based on what he did to get there, I expect a book deal at the very least. His real problem is going to be the next seven, sixteen, or thirty-five years he is stuck in Leavenworth and how that affects him when he does get out. Depending on how well he can turn his life around afterward, he may be better off not owning a weapon anyway.

      The sad thing about all of this is that, as much as people want to portray him as a heroic whistleblower or a nefarious traitor, he was also in all sorts of emotional turmoil at the time. I'm not so sure he would have made the same decisions if he was in a more stable frame of mind.

      In any case, I am really, really annoyed with the military for not removing clearance from someone who was doing things like violent outbursts and who had a history of instability all the way from boot camp on. I am also annoyed with, although not surprised by, about his commanders' reactions to his attempts to express his issues and both their failure to not take it seriously or even to just get him the hell out of work where your lifestyle is supposed to be considered fair game for whether you get a clearance. Manning was clearly an obvious security risk.

    70. Re:Hormone therapy? by Arancaytar · · Score: 2

      Manning's gender dysphoria was on record going back to before the leaks even happened. So no, while the confinement and sentence have certainly been traumatizing, they're not the cause. Considering the timing of her announcement, I'd guess she waited until after the sentencing to avoid affecting, delaying or complicating the trial.

    71. Re:Hormone therapy? by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      As for hormone therapy, I could have sworn I've heard of people getting that in jail before as well.

      The critical point here is state vs federal, and DoD federal at that. Remember, it hasn't actually been that long since DOMA was struck down, or the end of DADT. Lacking precedent, it's going to be a uphill fight for Manning to get that. Unlike integration, the DoD has been fighting anything hinting of gay/tran tooth and nail.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    72. Re:Hormone therapy? by gsslay · · Score: 2

      Indeed. Comedy is a powerful and many faceted thing. You can accomplish many things with a joke, good and bad. Amongst the bad is trivialising and victimising the subject. The acceptability of a joke doesn't depend on its subject matter, but on its content and intent.

      Where's the social/political commentary in the "don't drop the soap in prison" joke? It seems to me to be all about trivialising rape and normalising it as an acceptable (if not encouraged) part of the prison system. That makes it reprehensible and, just as bad, not funny.

    73. Re:Hormone therapy? by tnk1 · · Score: 1

      I'd say he's already got himself an award winning documentary lined up. Not sure what Hollywood itself would do with the whole story. There seems like there are mixed themes here, and Hollywood likes keeping their messages simple and hitting you over the head with them.

    74. Re:Hormone therapy? by Hartree · · Score: 1, Interesting

      So, you're saying that having transgender feelings is generally due to torture and insanity?

      Do you also think this about gays?

      Does that mean you think some sort of "therapy" might cure that since you seem to think it's an illness?

      I think you've discredited yourself fairly thoroughly just in one paragraph just by letting what you really think show through.

      I know a number of trannies and gays from some of the fandoms I'm in. Let me assure you not all of them are wiggin' loonies. Are some of them? Yes, but so are a lot of heteros. And, most of the hetero loonies I know are a lot more worrisome (in terms of violence especially I've never met a gay or tranny murderer, yet. I know several hetero ones.).

    75. Re:Hormone therapy? by C0R1D4N · · Score: 2

      I would prefer to be a rape victim instead of a murder victim.

    76. Re:Hormone therapy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      What the hell is wrong with teaching people acceptance?

      You really should look at the scientific evidence. Your 'solution' was repeatedly tried for many years *and failed badly*. Current methods are more successful. Do you not agree with evidence-based medicine? Or do you only agree with it when it fits your pre-conceptions?

    77. Re:Hormone therapy? by wisnoskij · · Score: 1

      I disagree. Your interpretation makes anything funny, a trivialization, but that would mean that there are no acceptable social/political commentary jokes possible, unless the politically correct viewpoint is to trivialize.

      Comedian activists joke about rape, atrocities, brutalities, and corruptions and that does not trivialize any of these things. I say again, it is an right and completely fine mode of political/social commentary. It is not only fine for trivial things, and it does not inherently trivialise anything.

      --
      Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
    78. Re:Hormone therapy? by tnk1 · · Score: 1

      Still mostly a boy's club. I know female officers and enlisted, but by and large, it's much like working in IT, there's women there, and some make general even, but I don't think anyone is suggesting that something as testosterone filled as the military is even close to fully integrated yet.

      Many fewer women are interested in the military as a job to begin with, so there is more than simply a Boys' Club attitude that is the issue, but it doesn't help. The top jobs in the military come to those having combat experience, and women are simply not going to have even close to the number of opportunities for that.

    79. Re:Hormone therapy? by rjstegbauer · · Score: 1

      Then it's a Win-Win?

    80. Re:Hormone therapy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You can be sure that some nutcase judge will call it a "human right". and order it be done.

      If you have evidence that this is not a legitimate medical condition, then present it. Otherwise, your claim regarding "nutcase judges" is nothing more than childish playground name calling, based not on fact, but on your personal opinion regarding what is and is not a legitimate medical condition.

      By the way, how funny would it be if you found yourself in prison, with some medical condition, but a judge denied treatment because it was there personal opinion that your condition was not a legitimate medical condition? Oh, I'm sure it would not be funny for you at all. But for the rest of us, given your feelings on the subject, it'd be hilarious.

    81. Re:Hormone therapy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The AC who you replied to here.

      I wouldn't. I wish I had been killed instead.

      You don't know the deviant shit that goes through my head, on continual basis. And the worst part is I can't say for sure I won't do something like was done to me. The whole 'cycle of abuse' thing. And since I have a child now, and the thoughts are still there, I have to force myself to not not hug her too much, or notice her body.

      You think living this way is better then finding out whether the afterlife is real?

    82. Re:Hormone therapy? by MightyYar · · Score: 2

      I cant exist at all points in the universe simultaneously and it bothers me, can we find a treatment for that too?

      Does it bother you to the extent that you will fall into depression and likely commit suicide? If so, then yes, you should probably see a doctor.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    83. Re:Hormone therapy? by Entropius · · Score: 1

      I have no problem supporting the rights of either a murderer or a child rapist to not be assaulted while in prison. You shouldn't either.

    84. Re:Hormone therapy? by Entropius · · Score: 2

      Why should a person with XY chromosomes who identifies as a woman not be in the military? Why, in particular, does that have anything to do with someone's aptitude to be a soldier?

    85. Re:Hormone therapy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      To be fair, one of them is the ADX Florence Supermax Prison which is a "nice" prison compared to others on the list. They put it there due to the inmates being isolated, but the only people who get sent there (so far) are the so-called "worst of the worst" - people like Ted Kaczinski. I'm very against bad prison conditions but I have no problem with that one in its current usage.

      Long-term segregation with no contact with anyone is considered torture by many, because the observed mental health consequences are horrific. If you spend a few years in solitary confinement you will be damaged for life just as much as if they cut off your hand. Most countries only use such segregation for relatively short periods of time (a few weeks or months at both) and even dangerous prisoners are allowed some regular contact / conversation with other people.

      Ted Kaczinski certainly did some terrible things, but he is not some kind of superman. Segregating him isn't really a safety or practicality issue - it's a form of torture to add to his sentence.

    86. Re:Hormone therapy? by Cito · · Score: 1

      Rape can definitely be funny

      see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWhS9M1p3oc :)

    87. Re:Hormone therapy? by Entropius · · Score: 1

      Because prisons are expensive, as you say, and regardless of who gets paid to run prisons in the end, taxpayers are paying for it?

    88. Re:Hormone therapy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      (fyi since you don't appear to be doing this on purpose, and haven't established you're trans yourself: "tranny" is a really, really insulting slur. There may be a few people who use such slurs as a matter of pride, but that's their prerogative; you wouldn't call a gay person a "fag" or a black person a "nigger" either.)

    89. Re:Hormone therapy? by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      It's an Imgur list made by some random person, not any kind of official list.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    90. Re:Hormone therapy? by realityimpaired · · Score: 1

      Some like me prefer men, which actually means additional soul searching before beginning transition and weighing alternatives such as adopting a homosexual identity.

      As opposed to a trans lesbian, who has to decide whether to adopt a cis-hetero role? :)

      I think it's safe to say that all trans people would rather be "normal", as best as that can be defined. Some are lucky enough to live in a country where it is socially acceptable... I know several trans people who have not had trouble finding a partner at all. I also know several who've had a really hard go of it. Individual experiences will vary, but the overriding pattern I've seen in the trans folk I know is that the ones who have it easy are in Europe, Australia, and Canada....

    91. Re:Hormone therapy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      So mutilated is the word now. I'll remember to use that next time I ask a doctor to stitch a wound closed and he trims away some skin.

      Infant circumcision is the deliberate wounding and sexual maiming of a child that removes 1/3 to 1/2 of the penile skin. The foreskin of an adult male is approximately FIFTEEN square inches of erogenous tissue which serves numerous functions throughout a man's lifetime. Not only does cutting up the genitals of healthy individuals without their consent violate human rights, it violates medical ethics to force unnecessary and damaging surgery upon healthy patients.

      But yes, forced genital cutting (whether the victim is male, female, or intersex) is a form of mutilation. Only someone brainwashed into thinking that cutting up the genitals of healthy children is perfectly normal would claim otherwise.

    92. Re:Hormone therapy? by Entropius · · Score: 1

      On the contrary, I think quite a few employers would trust her. I don't see why she'd be any more likely than anyone else to spill the beans about an upcoming product, or the root password to the webserver, so long as murder wasn't involved.

    93. Re:Hormone therapy? by AmiMoJo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Gender is not binary. It isn't controlled or defined by a single physical attribute either. Just look at the difficulty sporting organizations have deciding on a person's gender. Hormones, physical attributes, chromosomes - individually none of them are definitive.

      In some cases people are born with a feminine mind but masculine body. In theory it could be corrected either by making the mind more masculine or the body more feminine, but our understanding of psychology has advanced to the stage where we understanding that trying to alter the mind can be extremely harmful and amount to torture. It's somewhat similar to the old debate about being able to "cure" homosexuality by treating it as a mental illness.

      To address your point about people wanting amputations the key difference is that being male or female is a perfectly natural state in which the human mind can be at ease. Removing limbs is not and usually indicates some other problem, where as gender issues usually just indicate gender issues. Of course, in both cases a trained psychologist has to do all they can to determine what treatment is in the best interest of the patient.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    94. Re:Hormone therapy? by dirtyhippie · · Score: 2

      Yes, but I really wish she had waited a little bit longer. It's just too soon not to affect people's perceptions of the leak. And given the way many Americans feel about Manning, this will also affect people's perceptions about transgender folks.Not a well thought-out move if you ask me.

    95. Re:Hormone therapy? by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      I'm sure there will be people lining up to employ him once he gets out of jail. At the very least an autobiography should bring in a nice chunk of change.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    96. Re:Hormone therapy? by digitrev · · Score: 1

      As opposed to the USA, where the only people benefit are the rich and the healthy.

      --
      Cynical Idealist
    97. Re:Hormone therapy? by EuclideanSilence · · Score: 2

      People should not represent themselves in court.
      Doctors should not operate on their own family.
      Juries may not have personal knowledge of the plaintiff or defendant.

      First hand involvement compromises judgement. It's a sad fact of humans. Being emotionally involved in a crime does not make a person more qualified to offer opinion on the appropriate punishment for a crime. Unfortunately, it does make them more likely to be involved, which usually results in a distorted and poorly considered legal system. Our DUI laws are one example.

      Direct experience in a subject does not make a person more reliable. Empathy and a general systematic consideration do.

    98. Re:Hormone therapy? by kno3 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Of course it is not a remotely typical prison, that is why I chose it. However, it contains some of the worst criminals in Norway.
      I find your view of prisoners rather disheartening, though it is not a surprise. We are all taught to view criminals with a them and us mentality; as if people that haven't been convicted of a crime are morally sound, and those that have are a cancer ruining the rest of society. However the line between them is far more blurred. Indeed, practically all of us would be criminals if the law were omnipresent, fact is that only a tiny percentage of crime is ever dealt with.
      The vast majority of prisoners entering prison are not stab happy psychopaths that will murder everyone around them given the chance. Most of them are decent people that have responded in a predictable manner to the difficult situations they have been in, or possibly have made a extremely bad and uncharacteristic decision under extreme conditions.
      Humans are social animals, and will conform to the surroundings in which they are placed. If you put them into a prison with a system of fear from the guards, a culture of crime from the other inmates, give them no responsibilities, they will behave as such. This is why the recidivism rates are so high. Change the system, change the culture, change the outcomes. Obviously this cannot be done overnight, it will take a long time to undo the damage done by the current system, but it could be done.
      I refer you to an excellent TEDx talk done by Prof Lesley McAra, head of my universities' law school: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWEqLcPTv9U

    99. Re:Hormone therapy? by Em+Adespoton · · Score: 1

      I'd say he's already got himself an award winning documentary lined up. Not sure what Hollywood itself would do with the whole story. There seems like there are mixed themes here, and Hollywood likes keeping their messages simple and hitting you over the head with them.

      Maybe more A&E than Hollywood?

    100. Re:Hormone therapy? by cold+fjord · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "Only" two. Why is it that the US claims to be the best country in the world, but it comfortable sharing a list mainly populated by other shining examples of leading countries, such as North Korea, Thailand and Rwanda?

      You're joking, right? Some random person makes up a list based on unknown data, criteria, and extremely dubious fairness, and the US as a nation should feel humiliated by it? In one of those prisons people were claimed to be engaging in cannibalism. The North Korean prison system is a study in atrocity. US prisons are nothing like that. I'm reasonably certain that an honest list would have quite a few more prisons on it before getting to US prisons.

      But to help clarify things, let's try a thought experiment:

      A thought experiment list of the worst people that ever lived:
      Stalin
      Pol Pot
      Mao
      SleazyRidr

      Should you feel humiliated? Ashamed? No? Of course you shouldn't! Why? Are you a mass murderer responsible for the death of millions? No. So you don't really fit on that list, do you? Well guess what? Including the US prisons on that list is equal nonsense.

      --
      much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
    101. Re:Hormone therapy? by Trailer+Trash · · Score: 1

      I don't care. He killed and maimed many people, his life is of no value. I know, that's harsh, but it's reality. I'd rather worry about the people who are in prison because they were in possession of dead plants.

    102. Re:Hormone therapy? by AvitarX · · Score: 1

      I suspect a break-down of seriously torturous serial killers would match about the same percentage of homosexuals as the general populous.

      I don't really know enough about the topic, but I can think of a couple off the top of my head, and I can't think of that many over-all.

      Your knowing a few murderers doesn't really get to the threshold of where one would expect to get a homosexual or a trangender in the sample.

      --
      Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
    103. Re:Hormone therapy? by cold+fjord · · Score: 1, Insightful

      The correct answer is: the list is bogus.

      --
      much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
    104. Re:Hormone therapy? by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      If you actually want to help society, you support and protect those that need it the most.

      Like victims of criminals, most of whom are victims of violent crime because they are least likely to be able to defend themselves?

    105. Re:Hormone therapy? by meta-monkey · · Score: 1

      I can think of one.

      But you're right. It's ridiculous to put Manning's gender identity off as insanity from torture.

      To be honest, as far as PR for the War on Fascism, this is great news. The more social norms that must be smashed to hammer home the deep, deep opposition we have to the cover-up of war crimes done in our names, the better.

      There are some on the right wing who, misguided on social issues, are actual patriots. That is, people who love their country more than their government. When they are able to stand up and say "I support a transgendered 'traitor' for bringing government corruption and war crimes to light," more people who we need to listen will listen.

      --
      We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
    106. Re:Hormone therapy? by Cederic · · Score: 2

      Why? Women can do that job too.

    107. Re:Hormone therapy? by lgw · · Score: 3, Insightful

      As a general rule, "use some willpower and get over it" is a poor approach for any psychosis. If it merely "bothers you", meh, whatever, but if your day-to-day activities are significantly impeded by your mental state, or you're a danger to yourself or others (a couple of ways of drawing a line between neurosis and psychosis), then treatment is called for. Especially if the root cause is a "hardware problem, not a software problem", willpower isn't going to help.

      Would you really argue that someone who has a problem with psychosis shouldn't take his meds, if meds are available?

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    108. Re:Hormone therapy? by Cederic · · Score: 2

      No, it would not be funny.

      Why is it ok to rape a man and not the poor young teenage girl?

      Fuck you and your man-hating lack of morals.

    109. Re:Hormone therapy? by Hartree · · Score: 1

      2 already dead. One in jail. It's not alleged. All three were convicted.

    110. Re: Hormone therapy? by thetoadwarrior · · Score: 2

      Honest question here, why is being raped so much worse than being tortured, brutally beaten or murdered? We make fun of a lot of horrible things including the holocaust yet some people think rape is the ultimate and shouldn't be touched. I'd never wish rape on someone but it's not the murder and torture of millions in prison camps. You either give it all up or jokes about awful events are acceptable no matter which bad thing is used in the joke.

    111. Re:Hormone therapy? by HornWumpus · · Score: 4, Funny

      I think having a gay battalion would do a lot to 'further the country's foreign policy goals'.

      Could Saddam have survived the first gulf war if the republican guards where handed their asses by the 'lavender battalion'?

      Besides military bases are pretty ugly. They will get rid of all that boring olive drab.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    112. Re:Hormone therapy? by Cederic · · Score: 1

      My understanding is that most transgendered people retain their straight/gay preference in accordance with their current body.

      So a MTF TG that fancied women will start to fancy men.

      I'm working from a decade old review of the research though so there may be better informaton out there now.

    113. Re:Hormone therapy? by Khashishi · · Score: 1

      We don't know how to change thinking patterns.

    114. Re:Hormone therapy? by lgw · · Score: 1

      Let me assure you not all of them are wiggin' loonies

      This statement is true of many people with mental illness, but that same prejudice is there. If you have a persistent belief in something contrary to facts, seeking counseling is appropriate (as Manning did), and taking your meds is also appropriate. No, that doesn't mean your judgment is compromised in unrelated areas, nor that you're automatically prone to violence.

      While personally I used Manning had terrible judgment that got a lot of people killed, I can't believe it had anything to do (in either direction) with his gender identity problems.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    115. Re:Hormone therapy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I seriously doubt that any of you really know what you're talking about when it comes to prison.

      It's easy to talk about how horrible prisons but you actually have to have experienced it. I have. I served 16 months in two state prison for possession of some "very deviant, nasty shit" (and we'll leave it at that). Lots of psychotherapy has helped me understand the impulses to possess and use this stuff is directly related to my being raped by the neighborhood pedophile when I was seven who was thirteen at the time. So, not only have I been raped, I've spent some time in prison. I think I qualify as an expert witness here.

      So, what have I learned?

      1. Being raped as a child is no joke.
      2. Prison rape is no joke.
      3. Being shanked in prison is no joke.
      4. Prison in the United States is awful, even when I was in a "dorm" setting which was very little like the university dorms.
      5. The week I spent in solitary confinement was the worst week of my life. It's pure psychological torture that still gives me nightmares.

      But I've also learned to have compassion for the boy who raped me and forgive him. Pedophiles don't do their awful shit to kids simply because they are born that way. They have to have been sexually abused themselves. I recognize that this boy was himself a victim. I hope he's in some prison somewhere no longer hurting others but other than that I wish him no ill will.

      I feel the same for Bradley Manning. This boy (he really is just a child) is going to be spending the most productive years of his life in a federal hole, probably in solitary confinement "for his own protection". When he is released, it is likely he's going to be a shell of his former self, but he probably will get the hormone treatment and come out with boobs and be what were known in prison as one of the "chicks with dicks". But I hope he is able to find a way to stay sane.

    116. Re:Hormone therapy? by jdavidb · · Score: 1

      My question is why we would have Manning in prison anyway. If Manning were free, he/she could decide on his/her own decisions about treatment, and not at the expense of the rest of us!

    117. Re:Hormone therapy? by Stoutlimb · · Score: 1

      That's going to work towards Chelsea's favour. Now she gets put in a women's prison. Less chance of something bad happening when she drops the soap. Assuming she ever sees the light of day with the general population, and not get locked in a hole for the rest of her life. If they don't treat her with the respect she deserves as a human being, she has another way of appealing her sentence on the grounds of cruel and unusual punishment. I hope she wins.

    118. Re:Hormone therapy? by kno3 · · Score: 1

      "Young men aged 16 to 24 are most at risk of becoming a victim of violent crime." http://collection.europarchive.org/tna/20090120202659/homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs04/rdsolr1804.pdf Not exactly a group considered to be the "least likely to be able to defend themselves". In fact, crime perpetration and victim-hood have a habit of sharing common demographies (with some obvious exceptions).

    119. Re:Hormone therapy? by kno3 · · Score: 1

      Anyway, how does sending someone to a bad prison that will make them more likely to reoffend protect the victim more than one that will rehabilitate the perpetrator?

    120. Re:Hormone therapy? by Hartree · · Score: 1

      2 of them are already dead. One is in jail.
      Worked with one when I was a late teen. He shotgunned his girlfriend. Another one was a kid from the small town I grew up in. He blew away a kid from out of town at a party. The other was a well known hard case from the next town over who sometimes hung around in groups I was in as a teenager. Robbery gone bad.

      In addition, I worked with another who had been released after being on death row. He may not have committed that one, but I'd not be surprised (and suspect) he committed others. He died of vascular problems stemming from meth abuse. He was a very good worker, but I sure wouldn't have want him angry at me. I've seen him go cold angry at someone else I knew. Very scary.

      Another I knew in the National Guard was jailed for attempting to hire someone to kill someone.

      At 51, I'm older than most slashdotters, so I've had more time for people I've met to screw up. I also didn't come from a suburb, but a kinda mean blue collar farm and factory worker town.

      As to Magnotta, you're having to go a ways to find someone. Andrew Cunanon would be another, but these are people on the news, not ones either of us (correct me if I'm wrong) have met.

      Yes, there are gays/TG that are murderers, just I've not met them.

    121. Re:Hormone therapy? by keytoe · · Score: 1

      So, if I'm uninsured and facing major narrowing of the arteries, I can go smoke a joint in a police station and get free heart surgery?

      So this has been the Obama Health Care plan all along?!

      1. 1. Progressively strip rights away from the citizens criminalizing almost everything.
      2. 2. When a medical situation arises, simply arrest and treat.

      Bam, single payer public health care!

    122. Re:Hormone therapy? by Bomazi · · Score: 1

      Oh yes we do, it is called psychotherapy.

    123. Re:Hormone therapy? by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Did you look at the list? This is an example of a bad US prison. The primary reason it is on the list is because the prisoners are kept in isolation.

      This is another example on the list. It's on the list because of the conditions, but also because of the physical and mental torture.

      As another post said, the primary reason the US prison is on the list is because of Egotistical nationalism, not because of some rational scientific metric.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    124. Re:Hormone therapy? by spleck · · Score: 1

      To be fair, the US prisons on that list were elaborate clean facilities, unlike most of the rest. One made the list for "brutal" guards, and the other for being so secure the prisoners want to kill themselves. Sounds like a different level of "bad" than rampant AIDS outbreaks or occasional massacres of the entire population.

    125. Re:Hormone therapy? by Hartree · · Score: 1

      Maybe in the broader LGBT sphere it is. Hadn't really run into a big problem among those I know, and some of them are kinda picky about slights.

      I think a lot of it is, how it's intended. When I've used it, it's not been meant as an insult.

      One of them I've used it around is an over 6 ft heavily built trucker (Given my nickname, at least a couple of posters here on Slashdot will likely recognize who I'm talking about.) who could have turned me into a pretzel if shi'd been terribly ticked about it. ;)

    126. Re:Hormone therapy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I did a whole big, long write up a few months ago on an article about trans issues about what it's like to be trans. I suggest you go read it, because you don't really know what you're talking about. The post is here: http://developers.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3870279&cid=44020623

      The salient point there is this:

      I don't WANT to transition. I don't want to do HRT for the rest of my natural life. I don't want to have to fight for jobs and housing and the right to use the bathroom that WON'T get me violently pummeled or murdered. I don't WANT this fight. I don't have a choice. Therapy didn't work. Psychiatric drugs didn't work. Therapy AND drugs didn't work. The only thing that has ever been effective has been HRT. And with HRT comes transitioning. I have breasts now that will very shortly be impossible for me to hide. My body fat distribution is going to put my in a similar place even if my breasts don't. Every week, I look in the mirror and it's more and more like a young version of my mother. It's wonderful... but it's also terrifying. It's my absolute last resort. I've tried every other avenue open to me, and none of them have worked. For me, it's either transition or die. I have no other options. If I had anything I could do, any way to just stop being trans and be a normal man, I would. If there was any way that I could not go through with this, and still live... I would. But there's not. And this is a common theme among trans persons. For us, there is no other choice. If we could pop a pill and make this go away, don't you think we would? We may be crazy, but we're not insane. We didn't ask for this, and we don't want it.

    127. Re:Hormone therapy? by spleck · · Score: 1

      Many are overlooking the second page... including me.

    128. Re: Hormone therapy? by elgo · · Score: 1

      Should we hold ourselves to a higher standard? Nah! I'm glad that you feel OK about the fact that the "Land of the free," the US, has the highest rate of incarceration. I'll bet you also don't have much of a problem with privatized prisons.

      --
      - elgo
    129. Re: Hormone therapy? by DustoneGT · · Score: 1

      If it bothers you bad enough, see if a temporal agent can take you to the 24th Century delta quadrant and drop you off on the Voyager. Hitch a ride on that warp 10 shuttle they built. That would fix your problem, but you might not enjoy the side effects :)

    130. Re:Hormone therapy? by deanklear · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Let's try another thought experiment:

      Which nations on earth operate a stateless prison camp where due process and the Geneva Conventions don't apply?

      Which nations on earth have military commanders that regularly order the assassination of individuals who receive no due process before their death?

      Which nation has the highest number of prisoners, both in raw numbers and per capita?

      In each of those answers, for the first time in her history, you'd have to say the answers include America.

      These crimes are regularly committed by other nations, and they are rightfully called violations of human rights by US Citizens and the government. But when the United States engages in aggressive warfare, a suspension of basic human rights, and a campaign of persecution against individuals, including journalists, who dare to talk about these items, somehow the conversation turns to talking about another nation instead of our own.

      Putin may be a despot, but he is, by all accounts, a superior despot to Stalin. Does that excuse his behavior? Should we wait until he's got a few hundred thousand dead under his belt before we start including him in criticism?

      The abject hypocrisy, ignorance, and hollow patriotism that plagues what's left of American culture is nauseating. Not only is our citizenry unable to have an intelligent conversation about world affairs, but they can't be led by facts or argument to any truth that conflicts with their jingoist worldview.

      But America, especially in this case, has no place for pride. We treat our dissidents as poorly as our culture will allow -- the same as every other nation on earth. It wasn't too long ago that we were putting dissidents to death, or simply murdering unionists in the street back in the 1920s and 1930s.

      Ahh, but who wants to talk about actual history when we can discuss the faults of others? The true mark of any great nation is not how it actually behaves, but only the stories that placate the masses with our nobility and purpose. Our treatment of the powerless, the dissidents, and our enemies can always be justified, as long as we tell ourselves that responsibility and accountability can be abdicated by pointing our finger at a few dead despots.

      Is that the extent of your patriotism? Excusing the nonsensical corporal punishment of a dissident to protect the broken, corrupted, and unjust institutions that run our country by stooping so low as to say it's justified since we kill and torture fewer people?

      "My kind of loyalty was loyalty to one's country, not to its institutions or its officeholders. The country is the real thing, the substantial thing, the eternal thing; it is the thing to watch over, and care for, and be loyal to; institutions are extraneous, they are its mere clothing, and clothing can wear out, become ragged, cease to be comfortable, cease to protect the body from winter, disease, and death."
      --Twain

    131. Re:Hormone therapy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Seriously? As a survivor myself, I simply cannot understand where you are coming from. It's shitty, sure, but shitty things happen to people all the time: car crashes, cancer, burns, torture, war, etc. OK, If I were a vegetable I would probably rather be dead. But even if I had a spinal cord injury or amputation, I don't think I would rather be dead. Life's just too much fun. Granted, I was a kid when it happened, so I've had a lot of time for perspective, but even two years afterwards I didn't have any more suicidal thoughts.

      I have a daughter now, too. That's probably the best thing to live for. WTF, hug too much? There's no such thing.

    132. Re:Hormone therapy? by teg · · Score: 2

      From your link: "None of the windows at Halden have bars"

      That's not a remotely typical prison.

      The prisoners make their own meals. In a typical prison, that would result in 125 dead of stab wounds.

      It's not that different from most Norwegian prisons - it just happens to be the newest one. Norway puts a huge effort into rehabilitation, and as a result the recidivism rate is 20-30% - less than half of what it is in the UK, to give one example.

      While one part of me doesn't want prison to be to comfortable and cushy, intellectually I prefer this as it makes most ex-cons a valuable part of society afterwards and they don't go back to prison.

    133. Re:Hormone therapy? by znrt · · Score: 1

      Think it's in part because, prison rape/all rape is generally bad

      a prisoner makes for a bad victim because he's already a stigmatized subject, a social reject. a femenine victim has much more emotional impact, even though the act is totally equivalent. also, you should note that these kind of jokes are mostly a male phenomenon, and that's basically just defensive projection of fear (of social rejection, mostly, maybe even self disorientation). sorry for taking away credit of "north american culture" for this, but this is basically a "macho" issue, which sadly is a pervasive trait in cultures all around the planet.

      and I am also convinced that humor and jokes are the best path to criticism, discovery and knowledge, and that there should be no taboos. but sorry that's not the case with the average prison-rape or soap joke. there's no intelligent process nor reflection there to witness. it's just plain fear and social cliche.

    134. Re: Hormone therapy? by cold+fjord · · Score: 1

      You're changing the subject. The issues was the treatment of prisoners, not the incarceration rate. Do you want to argue that the US has prisons so bad that the prisoners resort to cannibalism to stay alive, or that guards force women to drown their own children? If not, then the list is still nonsense. The US treats its prisoners to a higher standard.

      --
      much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
    135. Re:Hormone therapy? by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      I've known an actual rapist (didn't know it at the time). They are not bad asses. They are pussies.

      That is the funny part of the don't drop the soap joke. It's usually being told about some sort of self perceived bad ass who is about to find out how bad he isn't.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    136. Re:Hormone therapy? by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      Anyway, how does sending someone to a bad prison that will make them more likely to reoffend protect the victim more than one that will rehabilitate the perpetrator?

      I don't believe you will see anything in what I said that says it does. I'm merely pointing out in the statement that we should defend those that most need it we should put victims higher on the list than the people who victimized them. The victims, for the most part, are on the list through no fault of their own; those who put them there made the choices for both themselves and their victims.

      As for 16-24 year olds being on the list of victims, the person who thinks that is relevant is apparently assuming that all 16-24 year old people are highly athletic self-defense experts and thus deserving of no protection from violent criminals. I suspect if you look a bit more into the data, you'll find that excepting violence between criminals (a drug deal gone bad, e.g.) most violent criminals target those who aren't likely to defend themselves simply as a means of self-preservation. Why pick hard targets when the easy ones are so ... easy?

    137. Re:Hormone therapy? by Smauler · · Score: 5, Interesting

      You ever been raped? You ignorant asshole.

      Yes.

      Why do you think so many rape victims commit suicide? Even after months or years of therapy and trying to forget?

      It's a horrible experience. Some people can't deal with it.

      At least if the person is killed, the torment is over.

      My torment was over years ago... it was tough getting over it, but I did, and am glad to be alive.

      I certainly wish my attacker had been raped in prison, and then killed, so my tax dollars doesn't keep him alive.

      I feel nothing but pity for my attacker. He never went to prison, by the way, his punishment was being deported back to his own country. I don't hate him any more, I don't care about him at all. I used to want revenge, but I figured out it was hurting me more than it would hurt him.

      If you can't appreciate that, you obviously have no experience in the subject, and can take your self-righteous indignation and shove it up your ass.

      I do have experience of this. You're the one with the self righteous indignation. You're the one claiming murder is almost equivalent to rape. I'm a happy, relatively well adjusted person now.

      Also, I resent the fact that you imply that no one can comment on the issue unless they have been raped. People are allowed opinions on stuff that has not actually happened to them.

    138. Re:Hormone therapy? by You're+All+Wrong · · Score: 1

      > So, you're saying that having transgender feelings is generally due to torture and insanity?

      No, he said:
          Probably(A => B)

      You're claiming he's said:
          B => (Probably A)

      Compare:
          Probably, if it's peanut butter, it came in a jar
      with:
          If it came in a jar, it's probably peanut butter

      I've got some honey, jam, and case screws that would take issue with your logic.

      --
      Your head of state is a corrupt weasel, I hope you're happy.
    139. Re:Hormone therapy? by You're+All+Wrong · · Score: 1

      > To be honest, as far as PR for the War on Fascism, this is great news. The more social norms that must be smashed to hammer home the deep, deep opposition we have to the cover-up of war crimes done in our names, the better.

      I wish you were right, but I fear the exact opposite. I suspect it'll be turned into "these queers can't be trusted". The coda to "God hates fags" will be "because fags hate the USA".

      --
      Your head of state is a corrupt weasel, I hope you're happy.
    140. Re:Hormone therapy? by maxwell+demon · · Score: 2

      See? The effects of the process are so bad, they even cause such behaviour in the past!

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    141. Re:Hormone therapy? by Hatta · · Score: 1

      When people ask to have limbs amputated because the person feels that having the limb doesn't make them feel whole (strange how you don't feel whole until part of you is removed?! That and/or because they have a sexual fetish for amputated limbs,) modern medicine denies that request, considers it to be abhorrent, and any medical professional who obliges the request is jailed and/or has their license to practice revoked. The treatment for the above condition is the same as if the person had a mental illness, and the solution is to change thinking patterns rather than surgery.

      In that case, modern medicine is wrong. Modern medicine is wrong about a lot of things.

      I mean, you're right the real disfunction is in the brain. But we have no way to treat that disfunction. The right thing to do is to give the patient the treatment that will improve his/her life the most. In the absence of brain altering treatments that work, body alteration is the best remaining option in some cases. Try everything else first, but when all of that fails, amputate.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    142. Re:Hormone therapy? by Capt.DrumkenBum · · Score: 1

      You might want to forget the word "Trannies". Most of the Transgender people I have met find it offensive.

      --
      If I were God, wouldn't I protect my churches from acts of me?
    143. Re:Hormone therapy? by Entropius · · Score: 1

      It doesn't matter. Her motivation wasn't anything that would come up in the course of honest employment.

    144. Re:Hormone therapy? by interkin3tic · · Score: 1

      Depending on inflation, she will get at least $30 from at least me. I'll definitely be buying the book.

    145. Re:Hormone therapy? by CronoCloud · · Score: 1

      My understanding is that most transgendered people retain their straight/gay preference in accordance with their current body.

      So a MTF TG that fancied women will start to fancy men.

      Umm.... No. Usually they stay attracted to the sex they were attracted to in the "before time". Though there are some instances of changing desires in "some". So there's Lesbian MTF's, MTF's attracted to men (and thusly "straight"), bisexual MTFs, and even asexual MTF's.

    146. Re:Hormone therapy? by Nethead · · Score: 1

      Not here in Washington State. But the police will give you some free munchies. Oh, you will get a ticket for smoking indoors though.

      --
      -- I have a private email server in my basement.
    147. Re:Hormone therapy? by AlphaWolf_HK · · Score: 1

      Because she (Manning) was presumably born in the USA, her genitals were likely already mutilated at birth.

      I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Is that supposed to be a counterpoint? Yes, that is also mutilation, by definition. I'm quite against circumcision without express consent of the patient as well.

      The process of HRT brings one's hormone levels in line with normal female levels, so I don't understand why you think anything is going "out of whack."

      You're taking an already healthy person with an already healthy chemical balance and then deliberately changing it. That is what I'd call out of whack. This person's normal body function will now require artificial means to maintain this different state. You know that the military doesn't permit transexuals for medical reasons right? It has nothing to do with politics, it is entirely about fitness.

      Yes, you are, because not all trans women undergo bottom surgery. Bottom surgery is a personal choice and not a requirement to live as a woman or get an ID as a woman, although it may be a requirement in certain states in order to amend or change one's birth certificate.

      Uh...WHAT? That's exactly what I'm pushing towards. I'm saying surgery isn't the answer, nor should it be.

      If you're really as rational as you're trying to present yourself as being

      How am I not being rational? Being against performing surgery on a healthy person is not rational? If not, tell me what is rational about denying amputation of a perfectly healthy limb but encouraging mutilation of genitalia?

      --
      Careful with names containing L slashdot.org/~AiphaWolf_HK slashdot.org/~AlphaWoif_HK slashdot.org/~AiphaWoif_HK
    148. Re:Hormone therapy? by Capt.DrumkenBum · · Score: 1

      I prefer "Reverse Phrenology"

      --
      If I were God, wouldn't I protect my churches from acts of me?
    149. Re:Hormone therapy? by tnk1 · · Score: 1

      That is probably the rule in the US Military as well. The caveat being that the military wouldn't have allowed him to be prescribed HRT drugs while he was in. In this case, he isn't already on them, and they won't give them to him in the stockade.

    150. Re:Hormone therapy? by Nethead · · Score: 1

      As opposed to a lot of inmate on inmate/guard murder from lack of isolation?

      Some Federal (BOP) inmates are sent to Florence because there is no other safe place to keep them, and those around them, alive. It costs many times more to house them there than in the normal FCI population.

      They don't send them there for revenge either. They have another program for that; transferring an inmate from one facility to another, over and over, never at one place long enough for money or mail to catch up. They call it diesel therapy.

      --
      -- I have a private email server in my basement.
    151. Re:Hormone therapy? by Nethead · · Score: 1

      That, and 'merica has a lot of assholes posting in comment sections. Today's Onion article delves into it: http://www.theonion.com/articles/seemingly-mentally-ill-internet-commenter-presumab,33570/

      --
      -- I have a private email server in my basement.
    152. Re:Hormone therapy? by miroku000 · · Score: 1

      . . .but how many will remember it in 7 years ? Or get past HR, who tend to frown on things like a stint in prison and a dishonorable discharge. And even if he keeps his IT skills current (unlikely at Fort Leavenworth. . .) no employer will trust him for ANYTHING sensitive. . No, for the most part, his prospects look pretty dim for anything significant. . .

      I think he can get a job for WikiLeaks or a torrent search engine web site. He will also be able to give speeches and charge around $10,000 per speech.

    153. Re:Hormone therapy? by meta-monkey · · Score: 1

      Great. Let them further reveal their insanity. Give them more rope to hang themselves.

      --
      We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
    154. Re:Hormone therapy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Uh... You might want to look into the proven medical benefits of circumcision.

    155. Re:Hormone therapy? by Hartree · · Score: 1

      Except mine have names and histories you can check out.

      Jeff Negangard. Worked with him at a loudspeaker designer in Sidney, IL. Shotgunned his girlfriend. can't find anything on Google about it, but it's been quite some years (Late 80s, I think).

      Joe Burrows, Also originally from Sidney. check it on Google. On death row for several years, commuted to life by Gov Ryan when he commuted all Illinois death sentences. Released when a witness recanted. Stories on that case ignored his past history and were very complimentary to him. I wasn't convinced even though I liked the man and and am still friends with his family.

      Another still has kin living around the Homer, Illinois area, I'd rather not tick off. Maybe given the people I grew up with, you can understand that.

      Another I didn't even mention above was PFC (William?) Smith on Camp Essayons Korea in 1984. He was in the survey platoon of my company HHC 6th Bn 37th Artillery. Murdered a Korean woman married to a US Army officer to take about a grand, then used it to pay his debts to shady Korean money lenders. He got up in my face a couple days after the murder when I was talking about it. In retrospect, I might have realized something was up, but not at the time.

      I later met up with someone from our same unit who also transferred to Fort Hood TX (where I was stationed after I came back from Korea) that said he'd died in prison. I don't know the truth of that.

      The guardsman who tried to hire a killing was my radioteletype team chief (though that was years earlier) at HHC 2 Bn 130th Infantry in Urbana, IL.

      Should I continue? So far, all you are is an AC with no info. Let's hear the cases. And if they didn't get reported, why didn't you do that?

      Now, anyone with half a bit of salt should be able to find out everything about me and who I am from all those connections and info I just gave. (Not that I've ever really tried to hide that.)

    156. Re:Hormone therapy? by TheCycoONE · · Score: 1

      Probably because most violent offenders don't pick their targets randomly, or look for easy targets. Instead they go after people they have an existing conflict with like rival gang members, people who made fun of them, or that guy that slept with their sister and never called back. [citation needed]

    157. Re:Hormone therapy? by St.Creed · · Score: 1

      Go ask an adult survivor of child abuse if they feel upset that their uncle/father/priest/etc may be subjected to rape in prison.

      Wrong question. Go ask an adult survivor of child abuse if they feel upset that their uncle/father/priest was a victim of rape before he raped them.

      You're assuming the order is always: go rape, get raped. In many cases the order is actually different. So what prison rape is doing, is brutalizing prisoners into rapists. Given the size of the prison population and the fact that prisons are the high school and universities of crime, this is actually making the USA less safe, rather than safer. To add insult to injury, it's also quite expensive.

      --
      Therefore, by the (faulty) logic you're using, you're just a cow with a keyboard - osu-neko (2604)
    158. Re:Hormone therapy? by Livius · · Score: 1

      I'm going to say that he was screwed up before ever entering the military;

      I'm going to say that being illegally tortured was a factor.

    159. Re:Hormone therapy? by Smauler · · Score: 1

      Not her responsibility. As long as she's not doing it for publicity, then it's her choice, she has no obligation to the American public or other transgenders.

    160. Re:Hormone therapy? by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Because everyone in prison is there because they raped someone, right?

      Also, it sounds like you''re supportive of the Sharia approach to meting out punishment for violent crimes, as implemented previously by e.g. Taliban and al-Shabaab - get the accused out in the field with a crowd, and invite the victim or one of their relatives to dispose with them as they see fit. Sounds good to you?

    161. Re:Hormone therapy? by Smauler · · Score: 1

      While personally I used Manning had terrible judgment that got a lot of people killed,

      Which people did Manning get killed?

    162. Re:Hormone therapy? by lgw · · Score: 1

      Afghanis cooperating confidentially with the US Army were murdered by the hundreds when their names were outed. There's a reason you never reveal "sources and methods" in intelligence work.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    163. Re:Hormone therapy? by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I certainly wish my attacker had been raped in prison, and then killed, so my tax dollars doesn't keep him alive.

      In other words, you want personal revenge, not social justice.

      Which is fine, but prisons are not meant to be the tools of your personal revenge. Aside from your tax dollars, they're also funded by my tax dollars, and I certainly don't want them to be used for torture punishments.

    164. Re:Hormone therapy? by Kleen13 · · Score: 1

      I guess in the Military you'd be a ward of the state, stockade or not... right?

      --
      That sinking feeling deep in your gut when you KNOW you screwed up bad summed up with: {head desk} {head desk}
    165. Re:Hormone therapy? by Smauler · · Score: 2

      Circumcision is a possible health benefit, and has few side effects. I'm against habitual circumcision too, but going stark raving sexual maiming about it doesn't help.

      I was circumcised when I was about 4, I think... I had a tight foreskin. I remember it, but don't miss it.

    166. Re:Hormone therapy? by kno3 · · Score: 1

      TheCycoONE, put it fairly well. Also, the fact that 16-24 year olds are the most likely to be victims is indicative that offenders are not picking their victims based on their perceived vulnerability to attack. If they were, a different age group would be more likely. Obviously not all 16-24 year old people are highly athletic self-defense experts, but there is a hell of a lot more of them than in, say, the 65+ category (which is the least likely to be victims of violent crime).
      Placing the current victim "higher on the list" to the point where it detriments the care and rehabilitation of the offender ignores the plight of future victims. Obviously I agree that there should be care for the victims of crime, but if you actually want to solve the problem, the care of both parties is equally important.
      There is strong sympathetic relationship between victims and criminals here, as criminals are also one of the groups most at risk from crime.

    167. Re:Hormone therapy? by sycodon · · Score: 1

      What is the medical test for gender identity problems? Is it in the blood? Can you X-Ray it? Nope.

      It's psychiatric.

      Regardless, we should not be spending hundreds of thousands on a guy in prison for 35 years to correct a so-called condition that does not affect his health one iota.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    168. Re:Hormone therapy? by libtek · · Score: 1

      FTA "A spokeswoman said the Army did not provide hormone therapy or gender-reassignment surgery, but that military inmates have access to mental health professionals, including a psychiatrist, psychologist, social workers and behavioral science specialists."

      --
      Unequivocally the realest of the realz...
    169. Re:Hormone therapy? by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      but if you actually want to solve the problem, the care of both parties is equally important.

      No, the care of both parties is not equally important. The victim did not choose to be one, he deserves much more concern than the person who made the decisions that led up to the problem. Yes, some people care so little for others that teaching them a well-paying craft and then turning them loose won't prevent them from doing it again. Those people need to be put someplace with others like them and kept away from their potential victims, and those are the prisons in the US that this discussion is about. Maximum security to keep them from killing each other and the guards, or the person who ratted them out and testified against them -- also known as "the victim".

      In other words, a slap on the wrist and a strong scolding won't "solve the problem", and saying that the concern for the criminal is as important as the concern for the victim is just insulting to the victims.

    170. Re:Hormone therapy? by EndlessNameless · · Score: 1

      The DoD just started offering benefits for same-sex domestic partners.

      --

      ---
      According to the latest ruleset, this post should be modded as Vorpal Flamebait +5.
    171. Re:Hormone therapy? by arth1 · · Score: 1

      Why should a person with XY chromosomes who identifies as a woman not be in the military? Why, in particular, does that have anything to do with someone's aptitude to be a soldier?

      Being a benefit to the military doesn't just mean aptitude.
      In short, it likely would not be a good idea, not because of the individual, but because of the others.
      A small number of military are psychopaths.
      A larger number have low empathy or are just assholes.
      And the great majority are bigoted (it's almost a requirement that you think the life and well-being of your own are worth more than others).

      It's hard enough for minorities in the military as is. Sure, it's doable, but it is seldom easy. And in this case, it would expose other practical problems. Should the person shower with the guys or the girls, for example?
      Would it matter what the individual felt most comfortable with, or what others felt?
      What if it is a non-operative with a fully functional penis? Should he shower with the girls? What about transgays and bigenders?

      Until we get rid of our religious ballast with gender separation, I don't think it's feasible to integrate more than we do today. We need to evolve until men and women and others can freely walk around feeling comfortable with their bodies, naked or not, whoever they are around. That day is far away, alas.

    172. Re:Hormone therapy? by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      To be fair, attraction to women is fairly common in women. If trans women truly are female in the brain, then I would expect somewhere in the range of 80%-90% of them to be attracted to women.

    173. Re:Hormone therapy? by Velex · · Score: 2

      There are two things specifically you're not being rational about because you're using hyperbole:

      • * Referring to bottom surgery as a "mutilation." It is a cosmetic procedure. I brought circumcision into my post to illustrate that. I call circumcision "mutilation" (and I'm glad you're against non-consenual circumcision), but as I understand certain individuals who are intact do decide to undergo it as adults for cosmetic reasons.
      • * Calling estrogen HRT "out of whack" when administered to trans women. Womyn-born-womyn sometimes seek estrogen HRT for menopause symptioms. Testosterone HRT is indicated in older men with "grumpyness" and trans men as well. Would you suggest withholding HRT when a doctor recommends it to a menopausal woman or to an older man just because it's not what their bodies are naturally doing? In addition, birth control pills are also typically a form of HRT. Do you believe birth control pills should be withheld as well?

      What is rational about any cosmetic operation, for that matter? What is rational about women who get breast implants? I've met a lot of men who disagree with breast implants. Yet, maybe the woman receiving the implant is a breast cancer survivor who only had mastectomy in one breast and desire a symmetric form?

      I also brought circumcision into the fold because I wanted to illustrate that your appeal to nature may not be correct as concerns somebody who was born male in the USA. It may not be a perfectly healthy limb... that's certainly the case with me, crap goes wrong, but I digress.

      The point is: A.) People have to take lots of different kinds of medications on a daily basis for a lot of different reasons; calling something "out of whack" because in your nonmedical opinion the unmedicated state of functioning is "natural" or "healthy" is simply ignorance. B.) People undergo cosmetic operations all the time; it is simply hyperbole and wrong to classify a cosmetic operation as "mutilation." (Feel free to call me a hypocrite since I refer to circumcision as mutilation, but perhaps I can justify it by saying that perhaps the difference between a mutilation and cosmetic procedure is whether or not the subject is consenting.)

      Please let me know your thoughts. Thanks

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      Join the Slashcott! Stay away entirely Feb 10 thru Feb 17! Close all tabs to prevent autorefresh!
    174. Re:Hormone therapy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Hey AlphaWolf,

      I'm trans (m->f), so I can speak for myself :-)

      So ... firstly, there has been minimal success with "changing thinking patterns" - and the success rate of surgery amongst well-adjusted and carefully selected patients is so high that it's almost a routine solution. There's an inherent danger that some people might expect changing sex to "solve all their problems" - and it doesn't, so if you're in a fragile state, then the whole thing can be a huge let down. But that's a very small minority. By and large, it's highly successful, and it's a brilliant solution for those successes, because it's a dream come true. Anecdotally, I've known maybe, hmm, 30 people who've been through it, and they're almost all happier - I can think of a couple of exceptions, but that was about being rejected by the 1) family, and 2) ex-wife: both cases of foiled expectation that the other party would accept it post surgery, and they didn't. I read that link - yeah, maybe there are a few who regret it, but we're dealing with fairly large numbers here.

      Of course I've also known 7 trans-people who've committed suicide too. Maybe it's worth pointing out that the cost of an NHS sex change in the UK is about £30K, and the cost of the mandatory suicide inquest is >£50K, leaving aside the pain and horror and loss and - mustn't forget! - lost tax income. And the suicide rate amongst trans-people is an order of magnitude higher than the rest of the population, so unless you've got a good working alternative solution right now, then there are going to be a lot of dead people while you're thinking about it. Ok, my stats are flawed, as P(suicide) < 1, so I shouldn't really compare the 30K,50K thing like that... but it shows that even in the absence of a humane attitude, we're dealing with an expensive problem.

      I haven't had surgery.... I'd sort of love to, but it's icky sharp knives and stuff. Yuk, I'll leave that alone, and anyway, I'm doing all right. But do you know, it'd be fabulous if there was a non-surgical route. Problem is, we have to take the technology we've got. One day, it'll be a little tablet. Will that be mutilation? The thing is, it's not that I want to have my genitals "removed" - that's a very male way of thinking about it! - it's that I feel like I'm a woman, and it's jarring and complicated when I look down and think "damn, I'm weird and different from the other women". Fortunately, I'm smart and determined and I don't mind dealing with people, so I can handle the confusion and I get people on my side and right now, I'm happy to do without the joys of surgical transformation. And hell I'm too busy to take a few months out... :-) Anyway, my point is: it's not really "having your dick cut off" as much as "being transformed": I don't want to sound condescending, but hey this is Slashdot, so for the benefit of our readers, a woman isn't a "man with no penis" - there's really quite a lot going on down there. And physically, much of the tissue is reused, so if that's worrying you, then be at peace...

      One issue here is that I think you're using a pretty loaded and emotive term: "mutilate" - surgery is a pretty common approach to body modification, and if you aren't happy with that, then don't you need to put the entire cosmetic surgery industry on trial before you pick on the trans-people? What about surgery for diet control? Pain relief? Tattooing?

      One thing: I said above that I "feel like a woman". I can't begin to explain how that works ... although I know loads of people who feel that way - I think it's just over half the human population, in fact! I've felt this way for as long as I can remember. And when you start appreciating how different you are - because NOBODY else seems to feel the same way - then it's pretty scary. And calling it Gender Identity really hits the mark for me: this totally feels like part of who I am. I can't easily imagine that you could take this away without burning out p

    175. Re: Hormone therapy? by techhead79 · · Score: 1

      Rape is far more personal and if someone is going to torture someone else chances are the vicitm isn't around to talk about it. Imagine associating that same feeling you get after you have great sex with someone to hate, mistrust, confusion, and general anxiety. I've dated several women that were raped in their past...it takes one of the few things in life that are supposed to be the best and destroys it. It's like someone reaches into your life and steals away every happy moment you might have with someone. Everyone seems to get a little bit fucked up differently from it...but don't underestimate someone having the power to mess with the chemicals in your brain for the rest of your life all through one act of violence.

    176. Re:Hormone therapy? by BitZtream · · Score: 1, Insightful

      You don't realize it, but your joke about olive drab is exactly what he was referring to. You are suggesting putting form before function. That is exactly the opposite of what the military is.

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
    177. Re:Hormone therapy? by FixedDice · · Score: 1

      Perhaps there was manning issues. Perhaps he was just someone filling in a slot in the numbers chart. Who's to say that in Manning's battalion there are others who have some mental instabilities. Meet some Intel weenies and come to a decision about their personalities. Take that and as far as deployments go and the Army's long deployment tours there are many who are unhappy with being there in the first place. Too much focus on one man that could be a fact of an issue throughout the military in general. Let's see how many more of these "crazies" appear from the new Insider Threat training that's being done to catch the next Snowden.

    178. Re:Hormone therapy? by Monsuco · · Score: 1

      Gender dysphoria is considered a legitimate psychological condition generally, so he'd have a case, but I don't know if it is life threatening or meets the usual criteria.

      Emotional trauma over being overweight is also real. Some people get emotionally sensitive about other aspects of how they look too. As far as I know, prisoners don't get free liposuction, nosejobs, LASIK, breast enhancements, et al. Why should being insecure about the appearance of your genitals be treated any differently than insecurity about the appearance of any other aspects of your body? If a male prisoner who wants to be a woman declares that he needs breast enhancements for his emotional health, why should he be given any preference over a flat chested female prisoner who says she doesn't feel sufficiently womanly due to her small breast.

      If Manning wants to use his own money, or if any other group wants to foot the bill, I'm fine with it but, at the end of the day, this is just a surgical procedure to make him feel better about how his body looks; to make him look like how he feels he should look. It is, in that sense, cosmetic.

    179. Re:Hormone therapy? by Immerman · · Score: 1

      If they truly managed to break her, which seems not altogether unlikely, then I imagine she doesn't much care about the fight anymore. And she's left with facing decades of imprisonment and the emotional wreckage that used to be a person. I imagine she just wants to do what she can to put herself back together and continue with life as best she can. She may even have gotten a plea deal out of it if she makes a big enough media spectacle out of herself.

      He gazed up at the enormous face. Forty years it had taken him to learn what kind of smile was hidden beneath the dark moustache. O cruel, needless misunderstanding! O stubborn, self-willed exile from the loving breast! Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Brother.

      1984 by George Orwell

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    180. Re:Hormone therapy? by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      Openly gay married commander, remember? You don't think I know that?

      It's happening, but it's been being fought from the highest levels. We're basically having to wait for enough of the 'old guard' to retire to actually make change. The fight for gay rights was so intense*, it's going to be quite a while for trans to gain acceptance.

      *Though mostly in congress/courts. They would have gotten benefits a lot quicker if it hadn't been for DOMA. DADT and the ban on gays in the military before that were policies placed upon the DoD by congress; it wasn't developed by us.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    181. Re:Hormone therapy? by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      This is where the term Transgender needs to be understood way more. You see, it appears you are calling her a 'he' because he has not went through HRT or SRS yet.. which neither are required by National or International standards to declare official Gender Dysphoria diagnosis. Gender Identity, Role, and even Gender Sexual Response is predominately all in the mind, not between the legs.

      This assumes I care about 'national or international standards'.

      You can get a official declaration of Gender Dysphoria all you like. I still won't call what your mental gender until you start making serious moves to transition. The diagnosis means you can start. Once you're somewhere into the process I'll switch. Don't really know when; hasn't come up yet.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    182. Re:Hormone therapy? by dbIII · · Score: 1

      The insane privatised US prison system is the main joke. That way the taxpayer gets raped as well while the prison owners laugh their way to the bank.

    183. Re:Hormone therapy? by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Help deliver justice, punishment or corrective behavior, nobody really knows and USA seems more confused than most

      The USA has a large number of privately run prisons. No confusion at all about what they're supposed to do - generate profits.

      It's similar to the hotel business in that occupancy is the key to profitability. If you regularly have empty rooms, then some kind of incentive scheme is the ideal strategy.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    184. Re:Hormone therapy? by philip.paradis · · Score: 1

      I've known several transgender people myself, and none of them have ever objected in the slightest to the term "tranny." Maybe the people you know are a tad on the overly sensitive side.

      --
      Write failed: Broken pipe
    185. Re:Hormone therapy? by BitZtream · · Score: 1

      Geneva convention related bits don't apply to non uniformed, non flagged terrorist, never have, never will.

      American due process has never applied to non-American in-flagged terrorists ... However, there most certainly is a process at gitmo, even if you don't know or understand it. Not agreeing with it doesn't make it go away.

      China has more prisoners by what an order of magnitude or 2.

      Your thought experiments are retarded.

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
    186. Re: Hormone therapy? by thetoadwarrior · · Score: 1

      I'm sure it does mess people up because its an awful thing. But again a lot of crimes hang with people. I know people that have had their home burgled and then they get funny about leaving home. But I wouldn't say that makes burglary off-limits and yes rape is far worse than burglary but it's not the worst thing. Personally I think it just comes down to if you're more likely to a victim. So like jokes involving WWII victims are more acceptable than 9/11 victim jokes. Which says to me people are simply selfish and only care about things that touch their lives and that's not a good enough basis for limiting speech.

    187. Re:Hormone therapy? by GodGell · · Score: 1

      I feel like I'm barking up a dead (burning) tree here, so to speak, but what you just did is exactly the kind of non-thinking knee-jerk self-defense of what America used to be that the grandparent poster was so eloquently talking about. To reiterate:

      Not only is our citizenry unable to have an intelligent conversation about world affairs, but they can't be led by facts or argument to any truth that conflicts with their jingoist worldview.

      And sure enough, here you go excusing your country's willful atrocities (ones previously reserved for third-world shitholes and dictatorships) and stating things like "there most certainly is a process at gitmo, even if you don't know or understand it" as if you temporarily forgot what "due process" actually means. (I know you know, you were probably just too pissed off to argue rationally - I hope.)

      Sadly, cementing the GP's points in the minds of international readers, you go on to display your eerie lack of understanding of the outside world - or even the willingness to read or believe a fact stated numerous times in this very discussion - by stating:

      China has more prisoners by what an order of magnitude or 2.

      Your thought experiments are retarded.

      China has more than four times the population of the United States, in addition to being an oppressive communist dictatorship, so that should be a fair assumption to make. In fact, in order for the US to have as many people in prison as there are in China, it would need to be locking up a chunk of its population 4.3 times as large.

      So, let's take a look at the facts:

      http://www.prisonstudies.org/info/worldbrief/wpb_stats.php?area=all&category=wb_poptotal
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate

      As you can see, the United States has 1.5x as many people in prison (2.4 out of 311mil) as China does out of 1.344 billion (from a population that size, 1.6mil is not really a large amount). So in fact, despite what you were led to believe, your country actually imprisons a group of people 7 times as large as China does compared to the size of your country.

      --
      [SHOW SOME LENIENCY TOWARDS ... I mean, FUCK BETA] Eat. Survive. Reproduce. GOTO 10
    188. Re:Hormone therapy? by gsslay · · Score: 1

      Your interpretation makes anything funny, a trivialization

      Your analysis is incorrect. I said "Amongst the bad [things you can accomplish with a joke] is trivialising". No where do I say, or imply, that all jokes trivialise.

    189. Re:Hormone therapy? by wisnoskij · · Score: 1

      But then give a an example of prison rape joke that in your opinion does not trivialize and victimize. I do not remember ever hearing one that was not some form of "drop the soap", and I cannot imagine anointer way to approach this subject matter.
      Or how any other type of joking is any more or less trivializing. The entire point is to get you to laugh, so I do not think you can treat it in so uptight a manner, and say we can only laugh at the bad guys (if that is what you are doing).

      --
      Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
    190. Re:Hormone therapy? by AlphaWolf_HK · · Score: 1

      Circumcision is still mutilation, no matter the circumstances. Breast enlargement...In the end what you're doing is expanding the skin tissue. This happens naturally during e.g. weight gain. There are different forms of breast augmentation though, many of which have approximately zero chance of harming the patient. The ones that do probably shouldn't be done.

      Testosterone or Menopausal HRT is intended to turn an unhealthy person into a healthy one by correcting an imbalance. HRT for the purpose you are advocating is taking an already healthy patient and altering their body chemistry.

      I don't like to say my opinion is entirely nonmedical though. Yes, I don't have a medical degree. However the extent of my knowledge of microbiology and chemistry while discussing my own medical conditions with doctors (my kidney condition being the biggest one, both the cause and treatment requiring a lot of knowledge of biochemistry to manage proper) has led a few to ask me on well more than one occasion why I am not in the medical field. In fact my cardiologist told me yesterday that I already seem a little more knowledgeable on the matter than other doctors he knows.

      --
      Careful with names containing L slashdot.org/~AiphaWolf_HK slashdot.org/~AlphaWoif_HK slashdot.org/~AiphaWoif_HK
    191. Re:Hormone therapy? by AlphaWolf_HK · · Score: 1

      Right, and you can say the exact same thing about people with anxiety disorders for example. Usually that problem stems from always worrying about things needlessly (what if this, I should have done that) which causes them to be the way they are. They want it to end badly. The only permanent treatment for that is altering ones thought patterns to not think so destructively. Unfortunately that isn't an easy thing to do, and some people are never able to do it.

      --
      Careful with names containing L slashdot.org/~AiphaWolf_HK slashdot.org/~AlphaWoif_HK slashdot.org/~AiphaWoif_HK
    192. Re:Hormone therapy? by RockDoctor · · Score: 1

      normally its the other prisoners who pump you full of their own hormones

      ... whereas by getting turned into a woman, it's going to be the male prison officers that'll be fucking Chelsea into a bloody pulp.

      Well, that's not exactly going to be a surprise to anyone, is it?

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
    193. Re:Hormone therapy? by gsslay · · Score: 1

      But then give a an example of prison rape joke that in your opinion does not trivialize and victimize.

      That would be hard to do, but not impossible. It could be something about tough-guy internet vigilantes, who spend rather a lot of time fantasizing about the retribution a criminal may get in prison. It could comment on some people's expectation of a fair and civilised society and judicial system, while still being ok with sexual assault being an unofficial part of that. But it would take a better comedian than me to come up with something truly funny.

      These aren't all laughing at the bad guys.

    194. Re:Hormone therapy? by AlphaWolf_HK · · Score: 1

      Suicidal and constantly depressed also describe those people who request amputation of perfectly functioning limbs, and indeed carrying out these amputations results in an improved mental state.

      However therapy is also known to work, in both cases.

      --
      Careful with names containing L slashdot.org/~AiphaWolf_HK slashdot.org/~AlphaWoif_HK slashdot.org/~AiphaWoif_HK
    195. Re:Hormone therapy? by Smallpond · · Score: 1

      There's more than 2?

  2. And this is relevant how...? by skovnymfe · · Score: 4, Insightful

    No offense to transpeople, but why is this on Slashdot? I don't give a fuck if he wants to be a man or a woman in jail.

    1. Re:And this is relevant how...? by Zaldarr · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Because /. has been going down the tubes for years.

      --
      I write professional videogame reviews! http://www.digitallydownloaded.net/
    2. Re:And this is relevant how...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      If she wants to be a man or woman, you insensitive clod!

    3. Re:And this is relevant how...? by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      You mean the fallopian ones? Does that mean that /. is not an abortion?

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    4. Re:And this is relevant how...? by Joining+Yet+Again · · Score: 5, Interesting

      No offence to you, but I don't give a fuck about your opinion. And normally I wouldn't say it, but since you seem to think it's important to tell everyone what you don't care about...

      I find Manning's actions and any information about her history which would go toward explaining them both interesting and important. People do not act in a vacuum.

    5. Re:And this is relevant how...? by Joining+Yet+Again · · Score: 1

      Common sense tells me that it would be obtuse to define gender identity in terms of sex organs.

    6. Re:And this is relevant how...? by umafuckit · · Score: 1
    7. Re:And this is relevant how...? by Joining+Yet+Again · · Score: 1

      homosexual judeomasonic conspiracy o nooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

    8. Re:And this is relevant how...? by Joining+Yet+Again · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Statistic pulled out of ass - check.
      Non sequitur - check.
      lol, bigots.

      I struggle to identify an argument, but I think you're saying:

      1. 99.99% of people identify entirely as a gender which accords somehow with the sex organs they were born with - citation please.

      2. Correlation is causation - citation please.

    9. Re:And this is relevant how...? by gstoddart · · Score: 1

      Does that mean that /. is not an abortion?

      No, just an abomination. ;-)

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    10. Re:And this is relevant how...? by Salgak1 · · Score: 2

      Well, that's only appropriate, as Sen. Ted Stevens tells us, since the Internet is an entire SERIES of tubes. . .

    11. Re:And this is relevant how...? by lxs · · Score: 5, Insightful

      In one sentence: Bradley was our hero. Now Chelsea is our hero.

      It's a story that many of us have been following since the beginning. For those among us that are not robots the lives of the people involved are at least of passing interest to us. In my opinion Manning has done a great thing. He/she deserves better than being relegated to obscurity the moment the story is over.

    12. Re:And this is relevant how...? by Salgak1 · · Score: 1

      You forgot to add Anti-Microsoft (although, that's not a conspiracy, it's just good sense. . . )

    13. Re:And this is relevant how...? by gregulator · · Score: 5, Funny

      In one sentence: Bradley was our hero. Now Chelsea is our hero.

      That is two sentences.

    14. Re:And this is relevant how...? by ganjadude · · Score: 3, Interesting

      i dont think most people do care, I do think a lot of people care that it would cost american tax payers to have it done. I know thats my issue with it, if he/she wants to be a woman more power to him/her. but dont make me pay for it and dont try and convince me that it is somehow normal.

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    15. Re:And this is relevant how...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Joining Yet Again, thank you for your defense and compassionate attitude. (I would also argue that anything related to Manning is *Stuff That Matters* as I could at least imagine myself as a conscientious nerd wanting to defend the Constitution and Right the wrongs in a similar situation, thinking I was doing the right thing.) If by chance you live outside the US and there are more individuals like you, would you be willing to share your home country? I'm not transgendered, I just have grown tired of being surrounded by bigots...

    16. Re:And this is relevant how...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Now Chelsea is our hero.

      Bad move. Now no honest Arsenal fan can like him/her any more. :-)

    17. Re:And this is relevant how...? by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 3, Insightful

      He will always be a he no matter what psychological issues he has to deal with...

      Genetics is only one indicator of sex, and not even a good one when it comes to physiology, let alone psychology.

      --
      systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
    18. Re:And this is relevant how...? by evendiagram · · Score: 1

      He/she should be relegated to obscurity so that we can have a healthy debate on his disclosures rather than his/her gender preference. In theory we should be able to do both but the one-dimensional 24/7 celebrity watch media will only report on the transgender aspect.

    19. Re:And this is relevant how...? by MBGMorden · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Given the current state of society as long as he insists it's one sentence then we all must agree that it is so.

      --
      "People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
    20. Re:And this is relevant how...? by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      Because it's the woman formerly known as Bradley Manning, who is a person of great interest to the Slashdot crowd.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    21. Re:And this is relevant how...? by Somebody+Is+Using+My · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Equally important is why this is news at all?

      Yes, Bradley Manning is an important person. But the details of his personal issues are not newsworthy, except as how they may have effected his decision to provide the information to Wikileaks. Its certain his sexual identity problems played some role in his unhappiness with his position in the army. But ultimately this is a man depressed about who he is and wanting to change. At root, it's not much different from scrawny guy wanting to be big and butch and - unable to live up to that fantasy - doing something reckless. But if that were all there was to the story, you can be sure it wouldn't get half the coverage this one does.

      And why is this so much more exciting? Because transexualism is still considered indecent and indicative of severe psychological problems by our society. Manning is being demonized as a a nut, a freak; certainly not someone to look up to as a patriot standing up for the ideals of his country. The release of this information is an attempt at distracting the public from the much more important problems his actions brought to light, and as a warning to other whistleblowers. It's an underlying message that says not only says "Fuck with the government and all your dirty laundry will be made public" but also "only weirdos and loons would consider a 'traitorous' act like Manning's in the first place!")

      So, yeah, not being personally involved with Bradley Manning I find the details of the problems that led to his actions inconsequential. They are his private demons that he needs to deal with alone. I'd rather the focus be on the other, far more newsworthy problems brought up by his case, be it the revelations in the leaks themselves, the response by the government to said leaks, or even how poorly the US Army is dealing with the psychologically vulnerable members of its armed forces. THAT is news, not whether Mr. Manning is happy with his dick or not.

    22. Re:And this is relevant how...? by NatasRevol · · Score: 2

      And give him a medal for it.

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    23. Re:And this is relevant how...? by Velex · · Score: 1

      Assuming 1 in 10,000 is accurate, 99.99% would be accurate as well. Nobody really knows for sure, though. I've heard other numbers that it might be even fewer, e.g. 1 in 50,000 or 1 in 30,000. IIRC, that doesn't count crossdressers or other genderqueer categories, only diagnoses that result in the patient pursuing gender transition. OTOH, adding in trans men (people born with their reproductive system on the inside who take testosterone HRT and live as men), you might bump to around 99.92% or so to make a wild guess.

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    24. Re:And this is relevant how...? by poity · · Score: 1

      I'm guessing it's here so when /. decides to respect Manning's wish and begins to refer to (former) him as her, there won't be a huge WTF IS GOING ON

      --
      your thin skin doesn't make me a troll
    25. Re:And this is relevant how...? by LordLimecat · · Score: 2

      99.99% of people identify entirely as a gender which accords somehow with the sex organs they were born with

      Can you find any pre-20th century literature or records showing a gender identification which was NOT based on sex organs? I dont mean adjectively referring to feminine attributes, or poetic language, and Im not talking about hermaphrodites-- I mean actually calling an individual born with testes a "she" or "female" or whatever.

      I would be really surprised if you found any at all.

    26. Re:And this is relevant how...? by Pikewake · · Score: 2

      Not at all! If your ancestry includes members of species that actually have races it's definitely worth mentioning.

    27. Re:And this is relevant how...? by Velex · · Score: 1

      Because transexualism is still considered indecent and indicative of severe psychological problems by our society. Manning is being demonized as a a nut, a freak; certainly not someone to look up to as a patriot standing up for the ideals of his country. The release of this information is an attempt at distracting the public from the much more important problems his actions brought to light, and as a warning to other whistleblowers.

      Mod parent up. That's about all that's going on here. It's easier to justify locking up Buffalo Bill than a hero.

      --
      Join the Slashcott! Stay away entirely Feb 10 thru Feb 17! Close all tabs to prevent autorefresh!
    28. Re:And this is relevant how...? by Joining+Yet+Again · · Score: 1

      It would be obtuse, well into the 21st century, to entertain the 19th century notion of "race". But go ahead, if you want - billions of people still entertain the several thousand year old dream of a sky fairy.

    29. Re:And this is relevant how...? by Joining+Yet+Again · · Score: 1

      Ready when you are, dear.

    30. Re:And this is relevant how...? by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

      Perhaps, but is merely a matter of punctuation: "Bradley was our hero; now Chelsea is our hero."

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    31. Re:And this is relevant how...? by Em+Adespoton · · Score: 1

      Because /. has been going down the tubes for years.

      And these days, it appears to be coming back up the tubes too....

    32. Re:And this is relevant how...? by Seumas · · Score: 2

      First, his gender identity issues are nothing new. It seems to me that they are only now coming out and being paraded around by news and other organizations that have reason to see him trampled into the ground. It seems this would have been more likely brought out a year or more ago, to fully discredit him. I presume they're doing it now to discredit him after sentencing to prevent others from finding any credibility in him and protesting or following in his steps, as far as whistleblowing.

      In short, this is not relevant in any way whatsoever. He did what he did and made the sacrifice he has been made to pay, whether he is a he, a she, or a guy who is confused.

      Now, why is it on Slashdot? Because as the Slashdot audience has gotten older, they've gone from defiant linux nerds spouting freedom, encryption, and open information to old men who can't help themselves but to spout their political, religious, and other bullshit on here even when it is only barely remotely related to anything, as if they were commenting in the Disqus forum at the bottom of a CBS or CNS news article linked to by Drudgereport.

    33. Re:And this is relevant how...? by amiga3D · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Because it's controversial and will generate tons of responses and lots of flaming. I don't care what he calls him/herself. It's Jerry Springer stuff and there is enough of that crap on TV so we sure as shit could do without it on a supposed techno/geek site.

    34. Re:And this is relevant how...? by Seumas · · Score: 1

      Good luck with that. All the slashdotters from the late 90s have gone gray and now they mostly find this sort of thing abhorrent to their precious values.

    35. Re:And this is relevant how...? by Seumas · · Score: 1

      Don't be willfully stupid.

      Manning didn't "indiscriminate release" any information. Let's remember the simple fact: He gave the information to long-established news papers. Those newspapers spent a lot of time and money pouring over the information with their editorial staff, legal staff, AND THE ASSISTANCE AND REFERENCE AND DIRECT INVOLVEMENT OF THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT, ITSELF.

      The release of this data was fucking anything but god damned indiscriminate.

    36. Re:And this is relevant how...? by Joining+Yet+Again · · Score: 1

      Are you saying that literature does not acknowledge transgendered people, or that it defines "man" as "having meat and two veg"? Because history is full of explicit descriptions of certain people as having mixed gender features, *beyond* mere sexual preference. Indeed, some parts of Islam consider transgenderism as more "normal" than homosexuality - so mukhannathun, who seem merely to have transgender characteristics in hadith, are regarded in modern Iran as "cured" homosexuals.

      Anyway, pre-20th century terms to describe human characteristics - "race", "hysteria", "invert", ... - are all so absurdly unscientific that we have eliminated them from modern discourse. So, while a hundred years ago we religiously assumed that "man" should mean "attracted to women", a hundred years ago it was also common to assume that "man" should mean "has meat and two veg". Now we see that the concepts of sexuality and gender are rather more fucking complex. As usual, more conservative members of society think about 200 years in the past, so it will take them a while to catch up - by which time the rest of the world will be 200 years further ahead.

    37. Re:And this is relevant how...? by Seumas · · Score: 1

      I don't think you understand the difference between sex and gender.

    38. Re:And this is relevant how...? by Joining+Yet+Again · · Score: 1

      "Only rich people should be able to enjoy good healthcare. Anyway, psychology does not count as a branch of healthcare."

      USA! USA! USA!

    39. Re:And this is relevant how...? by Joining+Yet+Again · · Score: 1

      "Oaths" are substitutes for reason. If you cannot convince a person to do something in good conscience, you tell them that having a conscience is not their department. For some reason, it's really easy to take away personhood with this approach- some fault in our evolution has made it really easy for leaders to make underlings show or support mindless allegiance.

      Yet to be loyal to evil is still to do evil.

    40. Re:And this is relevant how...? by Joining+Yet+Again · · Score: 1

      Well, if you really think that a lot of techno/geek debate isn't "Jerry Springer stuff" too... ;-)

    41. Re:And this is relevant how...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      From the wikipedia article:

      > The incidence of PAIS is estimated to be 1 in 130,000

      Seems to me, genetics is a good indicator of sex the other 129,999 times. You might want to moderate your initial statement.

    42. Re:And this is relevant how...? by spire3661 · · Score: 1

      There is only one race, the human one.

      --
      Good-bye
    43. Re:And this is relevant how...? by ganjadude · · Score: 2

      ugghh no. not what I said at all. Plus he is a criminal now and criminals should not get benefits such as this. If I told you I "feel" like a black person trapped in a white persons body, does that mean that the government should pay for me to be turned into a black person??? fuck no!

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    44. Re:And this is relevant how...? by Velex · · Score: 1

      Joining Yet Again is partially correct but also being obtuse in his/her own way.

      The brain has gender just like reproductive organs have gender. However, you need expensive equipment to measure it, and frankly that equipment is better served diagnosing people who are actually sick and just taking a transgendered person's word for it instead of wasting millions upon millions of dollars trying to "prove" that any particular individual has a legitimate claim to womanhood to every last bigoted stick in the mud out there.

      The argument comes to down to what to do with an individual for whom those two genders don't match. Currently, there's no known way to change the brain's gender. Unfortunately, we're so attached to the idea that what's in one's pants is the end-all be-all to gender that it's almost impossible to frame a debate in terms of how to bring the two different gendered parts of an individual into agreement.

      --
      Join the Slashcott! Stay away entirely Feb 10 thru Feb 17! Close all tabs to prevent autorefresh!
    45. Re:And this is relevant how...? by Joining+Yet+Again · · Score: 1, Insightful

      1. A civilised society provides healthcare to all people, including criminals;

      2. Merely "feeling" something and actually having a gender identity disorder are completely different, and thank you for illustrating why we don't have laypeople either building jet planes or practising medicine.

    46. Re:And this is relevant how...? by Velex · · Score: 1

      What on earth are you trying to say?

      Fine. Google the term berdache.

      --
      Join the Slashcott! Stay away entirely Feb 10 thru Feb 17! Close all tabs to prevent autorefresh!
    47. Re:And this is relevant how...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Having to pay for a felon's health care is not the same thing as wanting only the rich to be able to afford it. Some people have the belief that the felon earned their situation and so certain procedures may be more elective than others and should not have to be paid for while in jail.

      If there is a suggestion that not getting HRT will actually physically kill him, then perhaps it should be paid for, but it is anything less than life threatening, I don't know that HRT becomes a health care issue.

    48. Re:And this is relevant how...? by Alef · · Score: 1

      Well, those who manage the US arsenal seem to dislike him/her anyway.

    49. Re:And this is relevant how...? by tnk1 · · Score: 1

      And then Wikileaks went all pear shaped and all the shit was released anyway.

      He let out 10K pieces of information that were classified, the fact that some newspapers happened to do some work on them doesn't mean that he released them knowing how it would all go down. The newspapers were not indiscriminate, but he personally was not taking those actions. And the government becoming involved doesn't lend *him* any credence, they were pretty much obligated to do what they did because just to maintain security.

      I'm sorry, you might not like having it called that, but it was pretty damn indiscriminate. If he just released the so-called "Collateral Murder" footage and some other examples, I could see your point. But no way in Hell do you release that much data on so many widely varied topics and call it other than indiscriminate.

      And now that we know his state of mind at the time, it makes a lot more sense. He was in all sorts of turmoil. In no way was he in any state to be discriminating at the level you suggest. Not with the amount of data he released. He wasn't some sort of evil traitor, but he was having serious emotional issues. Not the type of mindset that screams "discriminating", you know?

    50. Re:And this is relevant how...? by Cederic · · Score: 1

      No interest in flaming, just fascinated that you seem to think transgenderism is in some way unstable or untrustworthy.

      Care to elaborate?

    51. Re:And this is relevant how...? by ageoffri · · Score: 1
      What a typical uneducated response to call some stupid if they disagree with you. There is no way he could have reviewed everything that was released, let me start with a remedial English definition lesson.

      indiscriminate: done at random or without careful judgment.

      Given his emotional state and the sheer volume of information released, there is no way he used careful judgement and it would be easy to argue the information he released was random. He grabbed everything he could get his hands on and released it

      Hopefully he will be held up as an example to people who are newly granted clearances and to the people who perform the reviews. The new people need to know that it is serious, the reviewers need to do more to catch people like Manning.

      --
      -- Slashdot, making the Left look conservative since 1997.
    52. Re:And this is relevant how...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      99.99% of people identify entirely as a gender which accords somehow with the sex organs they were born with

      Can you find any pre-20th century literature or records showing a gender identification which was NOT based on sex organs? I dont mean adjectively referring to feminine attributes, or poetic language, and Im not talking about hermaphrodites-- I mean actually calling an individual born with testes a "she" or "female" or whatever.

      I would be really surprised if you found any at all.

      That's a pretty shitty metric for determining what is a fact today - try finding pre-19th century literature on sexual or racial equality and you'll be pushed - but that doesn't negate the fact that it's quite clear common sense to me and most others.

      You might prefer the "black and white" definitions of gender, but that doesn't mean you're right. Many prefer the simple definition of animal species, but they too are simply dodging the question by dogmatically sticking to ambiguous definitions.

      Even if you can feel comfortable judging people with your limited definitions - what are you going to do when you encounter someone that does not have easily defined genitalia? Come up with a 3rd category? Or just pick a gender for them and force them to live the way you say? Where and why would you draw the line?

    53. Re:And this is relevant how...? by CronoCloud · · Score: 1

      No offense taken. Yep I'm trans. I was sort of thinking the same thing. In part because I knew this discussion would become a clusterfuck of geek misogyny, rape jokes, and everything else that comes with the Slashdot boy's club.

      And also because I first heard that Manning was trans...last year, this isn't news, per se. There are some who say that it speaks to motivations. That one of the reasons Manning did the leak was because of how shitty transpeople are treated in the military. (It's better for teh gays, but not for teh trans.)

      Heck, if even, god forbid, RMS was to announce he was a TS. I don't think that would necessarily belong on Slashdot. I think I need some brain-bleach after imagining that. Maybe if I imagine Natalie Portman, Petrified with hot grits.

    54. Re:And this is relevant how...? by CronoCloud · · Score: 2

      The funny thing is, transpeople themselves are somewhat divided on the issue.

      The consensus among us seems to be:

      1. If treatment was started before prison, that should be continued.

      2. MTF Transpeople should probably be segregated from the men's population... that would mean women's prison for some of those into their transitions who were living as female before. For others..some kind of separate facility.

      3. No surgery while in prison.

    55. Re:And this is relevant how...? by CronoCloud · · Score: 1

      PAIS is under-diagnosed, because it doesn't get routinely tested for unless there are issues. It is believed to be one relatively common cause of male fertility issues. PAIS is only one of many IS conditions...so the incidence of IS folks is higher.

      CAIS on the other hand is often detected when a girl doesn't menstruate.

    56. Re:And this is relevant how...? by CronoCloud · · Score: 1

      He didn't have a sex change operation, therefore he is still a he.

      Usually the pronoun changes come looong before the surgery, during the RLE/RLT (Real Life Test), when one lives full time as the target gender.

    57. Re:And this is relevant how...? by CronoCloud · · Score: 1

      The government doesn't consider being transgendered in and of itself a security risk. However...if one is in the military where they still kick out transpeople who admit it...and then one has to keep the secret...well then that might be something to think about.

    58. Re:And this is relevant how...? by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      Humans grow smarter

      This is complete rubbish. Our knowledge grows, our intellect generally does not.

    59. Re:And this is relevant how...? by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

      Awww shit! Now I'm forced to post... THIS!!! ---> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtOoQFa5ug8

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    60. Re:And this is relevant how...? by aristotle-dude · · Score: 1

      Says someone with bigger issues.

      Why do you care? The fact that you do says something about you.

      Stop referring to yourself in the third person. We get it that you have issues. The fact of the matter is that you cannot reassign chromosomes so Bradley Manning will always be a male genetically regardless of what you chop off or glue on.

      --
      Jesus was a compassionate social conservative who called individuals to sin no more.
    61. Re:And this is relevant how...? by ae1294 · · Score: 1

      Yeah reading this thread has depressed the shit out of me. It's like I got sent back to highschool. I'd also like to know of any country where people can just do what they like as long as it doesn't interfere with anyone elses right to do the same. Perferible a place where people just strung and say ok whatever to shit like this instead of acting like they are god's fucking gift to the universe. RAPE THIS, RAPE THAT, HE's GAY, Blah fucking blah I don't fucking give a shit if he wants to fucking wear a dress and have his junk cut off. Ok whatever man I mean lady that's fucking fine with me. Jesus Crist, honestly humans are extremely small and fucking limited pethedic cells on a grain of sand in a black void full of countless others just like it. But it's the same shit over and over and over and they really think they are justified in being total assholes and that they don't have something in their life that they don't want people to joke about every fucking day. I'm not gay, but I'm sure as hell differnt apearently because this shit is just pefectic for a site that has smart people on it? nerds? yea right whatever..... ok

      I guess i'm judging just like all these other fucking idoits but honestly if there is anywhere on earth that is sane let us know. I'm not perfect but I can agree that while something might wierd me out you do what you want. Life is to fucking short for this shit...

    62. Re:And this is relevant how...? by ganjadude · · Score: 1

      your point one i can agree with you to a degree, your poi t 2.... no, "feeling like" IS the disorder. so plain and simple if i want to be black, i should expect the government to pay for it, because, a you said its a disorder.

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    63. Re:And this is relevant how...? by ganjadude · · Score: 1

      for the same reason you cant agree with me i cant agree with you. you are not born a D and D player, you choose it. I would argue that other than race your other arguments are the same. so i cant agree with you. I did assume someone would find issue with my choice of words however

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    64. Re:And this is relevant how...? by vakuona · · Score: 1

      I call BS on this one. Statistically speaking, genetics are an excellent indicator of sex. According to the wikipedia article you have linked to, one in 24,000 XY births are "afflicted" by the condition, which means 23,999 are not. If someone asked me if I would accept an indicator that was wrong once in 24,000 tries, I would usually bite their hand off.

  3. WTF by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    Didn't see this one coming.

    1. Re:WTF by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Never do. Gender identity people generally feel so much deeply foundational shame that they go their entire lives, telling no one. Wasn't there news media coverage of a 40 year old married man that finally decided (after raising the kids was done and they were well on their way) that she couldn't take it anymore and needed to transition. I think a lot of regular Joe's natural reaction to hearing something like this is that the TG individual must be incredibly selfish and perverse to put their family through the pain of having their family fractured in such a way (familial identity especially is immutable!) But I think the reality is that a TG is experiencing pain which equals the combined expected pain and discomfort of their loved ones -- why else would they wait so long?

      In my anecdotal story my brother only told me, but didn't mention it in their suicide note, so I've told no one.. (... quadruple check that I'm posting anonymously..)

  4. Robert Anton Wilson by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    is SO clearly behind this.

  5. Me too. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    As I transition into this next phase of my life, I want everyone to know the real me. I am Anonymous Cowardess, I am a female.

    1. Re:Me too. by cold+fjord · · Score: 1
      --
      much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
    2. Re:Me too. by Cederic · · Score: 1

      Wait, 'Anonymous Coward' has a sex?

      I always thought of you as some genderless bovine.

  6. Popcorn by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Getting popcorn - I fully expect this discussion to be mature and informative.

    1. Re:Popcorn by Isaac-1 · · Score: 1

      So far this thread seems to be about debating the merits of prison rape jokes, and the topic of transgender rights, etc. in general. One thing I do not see, is any discussion about the timing, could this be a legal strategy to avoid military prison, etc.?

  7. Insane plea by rolfwind · · Score: 1, Funny

    Here we come.

    Or the torture (solitary confinement) really got to him.

    Third possibility, 35 years in the brig, he wants to go to woman's prison and be able to bang some chicks.

    1. Re:Insane plea by crazyfrenchmen · · Score: 1

      definitively 3rd option, 35 years in a women prison....

      --
      "Failure is not an option, it come bundled with the software"
    2. Re:Insane plea by rolfwind · · Score: 1

      I'm on slashdot, I don't read articles, I absorb them through osmosis.

    3. Re:Insane plea by Mirage · · Score: 2

      His gender identity issues were visible in the chat logs with Lamo: http://boingboing.net/2010/06/20/was-alleged-wikileak.html

  8. Finally by M0j0_j0j0 · · Score: 1

    An American Mata Hari. had to be the hard way!

  9. Good for her! by Noxal · · Score: 1

    As a G in the LGBT community, genuinely, I wish Chelsea as safe a transition as possible in those conditions. Probably won't be easy and it sucks that there will be a LOT of negativity thrown her way.

    1. Re:Good for her! by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      As an American Citizen who is disgusted by the fact that a whiny, self-absorbed freak is not being executed for treasonous behavior that could have and may still needlessly cause a war somewhere, I must disagree.

      Does EVERYTHING have to turn into a debate about monkey boy even 4 years after he left office?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    2. Re:Good for her! by Shilly_McShillington · · Score: 1

      I love it when I write these kinds of messages. I only wish I had an automatic account maker like the ones I use on FoxNews and CNN for managing my personalitys.When all my posts say Anonymous Coward it makes me feel kind of bad.. kind of cowardly. But I know I'm a hero cause I work for the government and go along with all they say.

    3. Re:Good for her! by Hartree · · Score: 1

      "there will be a LOT of negativity thrown her way"

      Especially from rather shallow slashdotters and other former allies, who will over time decide that it's no longer "cool" to hold up Chelsea Manning as a shining example rather than Bradley Manning.

      How dare Chelsea interfere with their idol worship!

    4. Re:Good for her! by Entropius · · Score: 1

      may still needlessly cause a war somewhere

      If that's your concern then Manning is on your side, not against it, given that she was acting to thwart a needless war that somebody else caused.

  10. Why is this on Slashdot? by schwit1 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Who cares if he wants to live as a woman, a man or a chipmonk?

    This inane crap belongs on Digg not here.

    1. Re:Why is this on Slashdot? by somersault · · Score: 1

      And hat difference would it even make when you're in prison? Unless he really expects to be put in a women's prison.

      --
      which is totally what she said
    2. Re:Why is this on Slashdot? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      That's RIGHT! Slashdot is a SERIOUS ongoing TECHNICAL discussion where SERIOUS TECHNICAL issues are discussed by SERIOUS PEOP... AHAHAHAhAhahahahahahah... sorry. I just can't...

    3. Re:Why is this on Slashdot? by wisnoskij · · Score: 1

      How about a Dolphin (http://24.media.tumblr.com/198cdd15d91b75fb66a447a9cfe2371d/tumblr_mhgnhmMYxw1rlo1q2o1_1280.jpg)

      --
      Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
    4. Re:Why is this on Slashdot? by chinton · · Score: 1

      Or in a Monty Python sketch... "Its symbolic of his struggle against reality"

    5. Re:Why is this on Slashdot? by somersault · · Score: 1

      I don't think I'd really mind being in a woman's body, so I don't see the problem there. Especially if as you say you're "not going to be dating anyone". It would actually be kind of fun being a woman for a while just for the unlimited boob time.

      --
      which is totally what she said
    6. Re:Why is this on Slashdot? by hey! · · Score: 1

      Because he did something which many people believe was a great service to the nation -- and other see as a betrayal. The consequences of that act are of interest to both sides.

      I happen to think we as a people are better off for Manning's actions, but I also see a certain recklessness in them. It raises interesting questions about how such a person could have got access to so much sensitive information. Clearly Manning was a deeply alienated young person -- didn't that show up in his (then ... "her" now) background check?

      I wonder whether the military ought not be looking to fill these kinds of positions with older workers, people who've lived through the most volatile phases of their lives. It's not like twenty years ago when people over thirty had no knowledge of computers. These days someone who his fifty might well know more about how technology actually works than a twenty year-old.

      I don't think being transgendered is a security risk per se, but being wracked with secret fear, uncertainty and shame certainly is. If Manning had been, say, forty years-old; had she already gone through the hormone therapy and surgery, and had come out as a transwoman to her family and associates; then she certainly would have acted differently. Maybe not with different intent, but certainly with more care and deliberation. Older people are less inclined to dramatic gestures, which has its good and bad points, but surely is a good thing in someone entrusted with access to huge volumes of sensitive data.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
  11. No, because it's not insanity by QilessQi · · Score: 5, Informative

    Self-identifying as a woman is not a sign of insanity. There are quite a number of transgendered people in the world today, from young to old, pre-op or post-op, leading perfectly normal lives.

    While we used to refer to the condition as Gender Identity Disorder in the DSM-IV, it was replaced with Gender Dysphoria in the DSM-V because we now don't think of it as a disorder. In fact, the general "treatment" is not to make the mind match the body, but to make the body match the mind. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity_disorder .

    1. Re:No, because it's not insanity by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 1

      This is the consequence of basing psychological treatment not on objective science, but on people's feelings.

      You're right. Why should we treat all these people who say they're suicidal or hear voices telling them to kill everyone?

      --
      systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
    2. Re:No, because it's not insanity by Entropius · · Score: 1

      Shouldn't we base the treatment on any genuine desires of the patient that aren't artificial manifestations of an illness (i.e. a depressed person's desire to die; a schizophrenic's desire to warn the President about Elvis zombies)?

      If an XY person with a penis perceives herself as female and would prefer to have her body modified to be more consistent with average female traits, why is that a bad thing?

    3. Re:No, because it's not insanity by Entropius · · Score: 1

      I regret posting in this discussion because I have mod points to burn, and QilessQi would get one if I could give one.

  12. Re:Sounds like they thoroughly broke him by rwise2112 · · Score: 2

    Sounds like they thoroughly broke him. First apologizing and then this. Doesn't look like he is going for insanity (trial is over), seems like he got insane for his time in solitary. Not saying that because he self identifies as a woman (something that happens to some people naturally) but because of the timing of the whole matter.

    This was from before. His defense (I assume) even released photos of him in a wig and lipstick.

    --

    "For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert"
  13. Re:He's not a woman by eqisow · · Score: 2

    The idea is that sex and gender are not the same thing - one is, as you said, biological, and the other is psychological. Yes, in the end it's all biology, but you can't argue that gender dysphoria is not a real phenomenon. So, the question you have to ask, is what's the best way to treat this condition? Is it to say, "Deal with it, you were born this, you are this," or, is it to give them therapy and open the door to procedures that do, in fact, seem to lessen the psychological suffering of such individuals?

  14. Imma call him Bradley by Russ1642 · · Score: 3, Funny

    Saul: A man has the right to change his name to vatever he vants to change it to. And if a man vants to be called Chelsea, godammit this is a free country, you should respect his vishes, and call the man Chelsea!
    Morris: His mamma call him Bradley, imma call him Bradley.
    Saul: Then you're a putz. All of you are putzes. They should change the sign outside from My-T-Sharp to 'ze Three Putzes.

  15. Re:Sounds like they thoroughly broke him by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

    "Timing" of what? You mean, the thing that's been going on for five years or more for him?

    --
    Ezekiel 23:20
  16. Re:Sounds like they thoroughly broke him by eqisow · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I do believe he was struggling with gender identity issues before this whole ordeal.

  17. what this means for slashdot. by nimbius · · Score: 1

    UPDATE Slashdot.headline SET headline_txt=REPLACE(headline_txt, '/Bradley\ Manning', 'Chelsea\ Manning ') where headline_author != 'cmdrtaco';

    and i guess on a personal level, i have to start saying, "a prime example of a capitalist dictatorship exercising its ability to persecute political prisoners is the incarceration of Chelsea Manning"

    --
    Good people go to bed earlier.
  18. First rule of espionage by Thumper_SVX · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Yeah, this was a bad idea. Unfortunately choosing to make such a public statement on this will basically give the highly vocal Conservatives some more ammunition to use against him, basically in their eyes invalidating the stuff she leaked. While we all know that it's got absolutely nothing to do with anything, that's never stopped the highly vocal Conservative minority from making a big deal of this stuff.

    The same people who were screaming for him to be hanged will now feel smug in their self-righteousness and will start finding a way to correlate this gender change with an ability and desire to fabricate the leaked information. This will then invalidate this entire process in the eyes of these people... and believe me they make a lot of noise.

    1. Re:First rule of espionage by SuricouRaven · · Score: 2

      They already are. A lot of conservative blogs and news sites have long been claiming that Manning is proof Teh Geys are a threat to national security and condemning liberals for endangering the country by letting them serve in the military. This is just going to revitalize their old gay-panic angle.

    2. Re:First rule of espionage by Capt+James+McCarthy · · Score: 1

      Yeah, this was a bad idea. Unfortunately choosing to make such a public statement on this will basically give the highly vocal Conservatives some more ammunition to use against him, basically in their eyes invalidating the stuff she leaked. While we all know that it's got absolutely nothing to do with anything, that's never stopped the highly vocal Conservative minority from making a big deal of this stuff.

      The same people who were screaming for him to be hanged will now feel smug in their self-righteousness and will start finding a way to correlate this gender change with an ability and desire to fabricate the leaked information. This will then invalidate this entire process in the eyes of these people... and believe me they make a lot of noise.

      Not that you are judging.

      --
      There are no loopholes. It's either legal or it's not.
    3. Re:First rule of espionage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Did you think about your response at all? First off, you are acting like this was something that Manning decided based on some sort of rational choice. I assume you think being gay is a choice as well?

      Secondly, the trial is over....who cars if there is "more ammunition" to use against her.

      Lastly, these people that are screaming / not believing what she released prior are not rational...they will believe/not believe anything...it doesn't matter what facts are in anyway. Because logic doesn't enter into the equation, invalidation is never possible. These people will always make a lot of noise..nothing will change that and eventually everyone will learn to tune them out.

    4. Re:First rule of espionage by ultranova · · Score: 1

      Yeah, this was a bad idea. Unfortunately choosing to make such a public statement on this will basically give the highly vocal Conservatives some more ammunition to use against him, basically in their eyes invalidating the stuff she leaked. While we all know that it's got absolutely nothing to do with anything, that's never stopped the highly vocal Conservative minority from making a big deal of this stuff.

      Authoritarians will always find some excuse to side with authority, so what difference does this make? "Any excuse will serve a tyrant."

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    5. Re:First rule of espionage by dywolf · · Score: 1

      we can say that it shouldnt be this way, but reality is what it is. and this is going to hurt his credibility and only give his detractors further ammunition (relevent or not, character assassination is a very effective thing). it is a poor decision on his part, not that the media isnt complicit in helping him dig deeper by blasting it around on the front page.

      personally, i dont care either if he wants to be Chelsea now.

      he did what he did (wrongly imo), he got sentenced (too much imo), and his personal melodrama should be over now while we try to handle the ramifications of what he revealed (of course there's still appeals and such in the future).

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    6. Re:First rule of espionage by Seumas · · Score: 1

      Sadly, there is a huge chunk of American society who now sees this as putting a "filthy deviant" in prison for 35 years "like they all should be" and the "espionage" merely the side-snag that helped them put that "sick pervert" away.

    7. Re:First rule of espionage by Seumas · · Score: 1

      Funny, because the personal issues are suddenly not relevant, when it's a republican fucking congressional pages in the ass or major religious leaders snorting coke off the ass of a male hooker.

      The only thing that surprises me is that, in the case of Manning, they didn't drag out some sort of rape accusations or something ages ago. That's the common way we go about character assassination, as a government.

    8. Re:First rule of espionage by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      There are plenty of crazy liberals, too. I make fun of them when they come up for discussion. I'd be happy to mock PETA all you want, and the fringes of the environmental movement are a goldmine of well-intentioned stupidity.

      If you want more pointed criticism, I can do that too. 'Conservatism' has become a joke. The ideals of small government, individual liberty and self-determination have been burried beneath a new form of conservative movement that is more concerned with enforcing their outdate social views into law. Patriotism has become empty flag-waving, cheering for the country while forgetting just what makes it worth cheering for, and 'support the troops' has turned into some strange military ritual worship.

      That is modern conservatism. A movement that supports individual liberty and a minimal government... except for where the government needs to be endorsing Christianity as the supreme religion, making sure gays are suitably penalised, limiting access to contraception, banning abortion, banning pornography, spying on half the country on the off-chance that they might catch a terrorist, regulating the media to protect the delicate ears of children from evil dirty words, enforcing the federal War on Drugs even in cases where states have expressly passed laws saying otherwise, and maintaining plenty of regulations about work and residence permits to keep immigrants from too easily moving into the country.

      Obama is hardly a liberal messiah. Liberals by-and-large are disillusioned with him - he went into office proclaiming change, and gave nothing but a few tokens and more of the same. The only reason he still has their support at all is that he is a democrat, and thus still infinitely better to them than any republican would be.

    9. Re:First rule of espionage by Entropius · · Score: 1

      Israel seems to have no problems with "institutional competency" in its military, which allows both gays and women to serve as equals.

    10. Re:First rule of espionage by drnb · · Score: 1

      ... we all know that it's got absolutely nothing to do with anything ...

      No, it has something quite relevant to Manning's access to the information in the first place. Isn't one of the first rules of espionage not to let people ***in the midst of*** a major personal/psychological struggle handle your classified information, and to seek out such a person handling the other side's classified information? Did Manning get a pass on his struggle due to political correctness?

      Again, I emphasize "in the midst of". Once a person is happy with their preferences and identity then handling classified information should not be an issue. However a person in the midst of a major personal/psychological struggle is vulnerable to manipulation. Pose as a friend, listen, be sympathetic, ... its a classic ploy. And no the nature of the struggle does not have to be preference or identity based, it can be anything.

    11. Re:First rule of espionage by CronoCloud · · Score: 1

      You did know that the guy who wrote the US Military's first training manual during the Revolutionary War was Gay-er than a Rainbow Unicorn at a Pride Parade, right?

  19. Re:Sounds like they thoroughly broke him by QilessQi · · Score: 1

    The issue was supposedly raised during the trial itself, but for all we know (s)he has felt this way for years (as said in the article) and just kept it VERY tightly under wraps because of the demands of a military career. Now that motivation is somewhat moot.

  20. Re:Propaganda? by Gavagai80 · · Score: 1

    Says something about you that you consider it character assassination to discuss someone's [already known] transgender desires.

    --
    This space intentionally left blank
  21. Section 8 by sunking2 · · Score: 4, Funny

    Didn't work for Klinger in MASH, won't work for him either.

    1. Re:Section 8 by ClioCJS · · Score: 1

      Didn't realise M*A*S*H was a documentary...

      --
      -Clio
      Karma: Bad (mostly from not giving a fuck)
      Blog: http://clintjcl.wordpress.com
  22. Re: He's not a woman by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Tell that to androgen insensitive women who are xy.
    You are no doctor nor a judge on the human condition.

  23. Re:A public announcement on national TV. by cold+fjord · · Score: 4, Funny

    Much to his distress.

    --
    much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
  24. Re:Sounds like they thoroughly broke him by TheCarp · · Score: 4, Informative

    All accounts I have seen indicate that he was starting to feel this way long before any of this happened. I have some Tranny friends (will be camping with them this weekend in fact) and it isn't something one just suddenly one day decide, or that people go crazy and decide to do....its usually accompanied by lifelong feelings of not really being "right".

    Hell, I met one woman who lived as a man for years, never felt right, transitioned, and not till the age of about 50 did doctors find some small ovaries inside her. Had apparently really been part woman the whole time, never knew it.

    This transition creates an odd conflict. Bradley Manning is a household name. He leaked secrets, he is either a hero of villian. He is a symbol.

    Who is Chelsea Manning? She is just a woman going to jail. Nobody knows her. She is not a household name, not a symbol.

    Maybe that works out in her favor in the long run? I don't really know, it is a bit of a toss up.... but we have been talking about the plight of Bradley Manning so long, I wonder that maybe this is bad timing, but, maybe there is no good timing.

    --
    "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
  25. Bravo, Washington Post by barlevg · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I read about this on WaPo about half an hour ago, where I noticed they did an incredibly intelligent and thoughtful thing: they disabled comments. Now if only that were possible on /.

    1. Re:Bravo, Washington Post by h4rr4r · · Score: 1, Flamebait

      Or at least for these articles ban the ACs.
      If you want to say stupid hateful shit at least let it stick with you.

    2. Re:Bravo, Washington Post by barlevg · · Score: 1

      To be fair, on Slashdot you can make use of the moderating system and filter out low-scored comments. Most news sites (like WaPo) have no such functionality, and moderation is extremely rare, so really, it's not so much Slashdot that should be disabling comments, it's Reuters (OP), NYT and the other "traditional" media establishments that haven't yet implemented effective moderating systems that should be following WaPo's lead.

    3. Re:Bravo, Washington Post by Ardyvee · · Score: 1

      But then what would be the point of it? Half of slashdot is the comment section, the other half being the (sometimes crappy) summary of the story along with any relevant links.

      --
      I don't care if I'm wrong. I only care about everyone obtaining something from the discussion.
    4. Re:Bravo, Washington Post by ganjadude · · Score: 4, Insightful

      no. screw that. I get annoyed as hell when places decide for me what stories i can and cant comment on. Thats why digg fell apart when they got bought out, they disabled all comments.

      slashdot IS comments. I can find these stories all over the web (in fact as we all joke we usually do before its here) but we come to slashdot for the comments. Sure the quality has dropped in the past 10 years but there are still alot of good posters here, and there is no reason to disable posts on a story because of fear of what will be said. In fact the entire Idea just tells me whatever is happeneing that we would even considering such a thing, is a horrible thing to begin with or something that is clearly wrong.

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    5. Re:Bravo, Washington Post by barlevg · · Score: 1

      I don't think anyone involved in /. is seriously considering making it possible to disable comments on articles. My point was really more that I applauded WaPo's decision, since they don't have any effective system in place for moderation (unlike /.)

    6. Re:Bravo, Washington Post by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I concur and will be removing you from my christmas card list.

    7. Re:Bravo, Washington Post by timeOday · · Score: 1

      What are you talking about. I HATE how major websites censor everything. Somebody goes on a shooting spree, Facebook suspends their account. Why? Slashdot's moderation system is the FAR better way to go.

    8. Re:Bravo, Washington Post by Seumas · · Score: 1

      Agreed. If there's one thing Bradly Manning sacrificed almost his entire lifetime for by whistleblowing, it was to eradicate privacy and free speech!

    9. Re:Bravo, Washington Post by Seumas · · Score: 1

      People are being ridiculous. As bad as Slashdot has gotten as all the old-school slashdotters turned into their grandfathers over the last fifteen years, it is nowhere near on the level of the comment sections of almost every article on the internet. Those places (the bottom of any CBS article, for example) are the most racist, ignorant, homophobic, religious-nuttery, anti-anyone-not-super-christian, rah-rah america depths of total shit on the planet.

      Those make the worst of Slashdot look like fucking poetry.

    10. Re:Bravo, Washington Post by ganjadude · · Score: 1

      yeah I know what you were referring to. I agree I dont think /. is dumb enough to try that. as far as i can recall only 1 comment has ever been deleted in the entire time its been up. I simply disagree is all, i find disabling the comments a sign that they know they wrote something that would incite a heated debate and they dont want to deal with it, they just want to get their point across without having to hear the opposition. Many papers are like this, my local papers webpages all have comments, however on anything that is even mildly controversial they will disable comments. I find that to just be a slap in the face. Sure it is their site their rules I just find it really annoying personally.

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    11. Re:Bravo, Washington Post by iroll · · Score: 1

      Insightful?!? Are you fucking kidding me? The whole point of slashdot is that it points you to a longer article and gives you a forum for discussion--a forum that, through its social moderation system, is (for all its warts) far, far superior to the comment sections on any news site.

      Why on God's Green Earth would you come to slashdot if you wanted comments disabled? You could just go to to the source (WaPo), or a no-comment aggregator like Google News.

      Asking for slashdot without comments is like asking for a hamburger minus the bread, meat, and toppings. All you're left with is the wrapper--if that's all you want, why the fuck did you order a burger?

      --
      Repetition does not transform a lie into the truth. - FDR
    12. Re:Bravo, Washington Post by barlevg · · Score: 1
      Yeah, that part of my comment was rather silly (though I agree with someone else who said that the real issue is that this article should never have been on Slashdot to begin with). I *assume* I was modded up more for the "kudos, WaPo, for disabling comments when you don't have an effective way of modding them." This opinion, I think, is pretty well validated, since they *are* allowing comments on a related blog post, and the comments are mostly along the lines of

      Woke up, to news of "Chelsea Manning", a guy who says he is a chick,
      He is doing time in prison, and no longer wants his ****.

    13. Re:Bravo, Washington Post by CronoCloud · · Score: 1

      Those make the worst of Slashdot look like fucking poetry.

      Yeah, even when it's about the trans, Slashdot isn't as bad as the news sites.

      When links to transgender related news are posted in trans-related forums one thing that is often said is "Triggery comments/don't read the comments"

    14. Re:Bravo, Washington Post by iroll · · Score: 1

      I'll buy that, and I did agree with that part... the second part was just too crazy to ignore ;-) The truth is I've often wondered why any respectable news site would want a comment section.

      The readers are much better served by the news on the news site and the discussion on a discussion site--whether it's slashdot or reddit or fark or 4chan. The task of moderating (or creating a culture that moderates itself) is massive, and better offloaded to sites that specialize in that sort of work. Instead, the mainstream news sites seem to still be stuck in the 90s "portal" paradigm, where keeping the viewer on their domain means providing every possible service, no matter how poorly rendered.

      Really, I think they should worry more about providing a quality, focused product that will keep bringing in hits from the aggregators.

      --
      Repetition does not transform a lie into the truth. - FDR
    15. Re:Bravo, Washington Post by ganjadude · · Score: 1

      there is no valid reason.

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
  26. Re:Sounds like they thoroughly broke him by jellomizer · · Score: 1

    This is actually old news. NPR actually covered this months ago. I am surprised that other media didn't jump on this sooner.

    --
    If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
  27. Utter crap by onyxruby · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Good friend of mine is transgender, this should never even make the news. Transgender is a mental disease that should first of all never take away from the person, and second of all never be used as an excuse to justify someone's behavior.

    Bradley Meaning's behavior had jack to do with being Transgender and bringing his mental illness into this is a shows a refusal to take responsibility and will only further alienate society from people who are transgender and have not committed Bradley Manning's crimes.

    1. Re:Utter crap by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 1

      Good friend of mine is transgender, this should never even make the news. Transgender is a mental disease

      It's a dysphoria - it's not even considered a disorder any more, so it's not a disease or a mental illness, and if I was your friend I wouldn't want you thinking it was. There's a mismatch between his physical sex and his gender identity, but that doesn't mean it's his brain is at fault.

      --
      systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
    2. Re:Utter crap by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      ... There's a mismatch between his physical sex and his gender identity, but that doesn't mean it's his brain is at fault.

      Actually, the brain may in fact be at fault. There's been several small studies that show that certain areas of the brain are different in volume and number of nuerons between males and females. Transsexuals (MTF), in the study, had a volume (and number of neurons) consistent with females. Gay males were consistent with males. Gay females were consistent with females.

      This study was small, and was conducted by sectioning the brain of cadavers. However it has been replicated by a different group of researchers, with a different group of cadavers, and arrived at the same results. Co-factors such as any prior hormone use was accounted for in the study.

      The chances are pretty good that transsexuality, at least in male-to-female transsexuals, is the result of a brain that developed with some female attributes, in a male body.

      The situation with transsexuality is not that you desire to be the opposite sex, but that you "know" that you are not the sex your body is. So, to use myself as an example, I knew from an early age I was not a male. It didn't matter what my body was, I knew, just as surely as anyone else knows their own gender, that I was not a male.

      Just thought I'd add a bit of real information to the transsexuality discussion.

      As for Chelsea Manning...we'll just have to take her word.

    3. Re:Utter crap by Seumas · · Score: 2

      That's clearly untrue. There was just an AMA on reddit recently by someone who changed their sex and then desperately regretted it.

      If there is a mismatch between the gender of your physical body and its guts and what you feel you are in your head -- then there is something wrong SOMEWHERE. It isn't some magical ethereal thing compelling you to have this mixup. That isn't to say "if you have balls and no uterus, but you feel like you are supposed to be a woman, then you are mentally fucked up and need to have your head fixed". It's just to say that may sometimes be the case. Sometimes it may not be. I'm sure there are multiple potential catalysts and many are probably even a simple case of "mother nature screwed up and made me one thing but made me feel like another thing".

      It would be a disservice to the health of people, I believe, to instantly treat everyone as either clearly the physical sex they seem to be but with a fucked up brain *or* as a perfectly normal person who just needs to whack off some bits and install some others.

      To further counter your point that there's supposedly nothing wrong and it isn't a disorder or illness and has nothing to do with the brain -- you can not have a gender reassignment surgery without an IMMENSE amount of psychological counseling.

      I think it is wrong to judge people with gender identity issues. I am sure that, whatever causing them, it is fucking awful to deal with (not to mention coping with society, along with it). We are definitely a long way from clearly understanding everything about it, though. Once we do, I'm sure we will be very far along the path to society being able to cope with it more rationally.

    4. Re:Utter crap by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 1
      I'm not saying those with gender identity issues don't also suffer a disproportionate amount of mental illness, only that the gender issue is not, in and of itself, automatically (if ever) a mental illness (whatever one of those actually is, to have a finger put on it).

      That's clearly untrue. There was just an AMA on reddit recently by someone who changed their sex and then desperately regretted it.

      That one anecdote (count it!) still doesn't indicate that his gender identity issue was a mental illness. I certainly didn't mean to suggest that anyone who feels they're the wrong physical gender only has to have the op to put everything right.

      --
      systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
    5. Re:Utter crap by onyxruby · · Score: 1

      http://psychcentral.com/disorders/gender-dysphoria-symptoms/

      The recent proposed changes to the DSM 5 are not yet fully vetted from what I understand. I suppose if you were splitting hairs finely enough you could make your argument, you just have to ignore the previous several decades of medical science. Of course there are those who are quite opposed to changing it from a mental illness to a disorder as their are legal implications.

      That being said, unless your a psychiatrist or transgender yourself, your really probably just talking out of your ass with no clue in the world. I've wasted too much of my time with you already.

  28. Ob by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

    Well that explains why he couldn't keep a secret...

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    1. Re:Ob by VortexCortex · · Score: 1

      Well that explains why he couldn't keep a secret...

      So, Manning's a Chick? Huh, women, go figure!
      Always changing their mind at the last minute and blaming it on a man, right?

      I bet Chelsey Manning is kicking herself for not doing the gender swap thing
      BEFORE the government went looking for the guy who blew the whistle, eh?

      Guess they won't have to worry about Manning taking a stand and leaking anymore...

  29. Why is this relevant? by Bugler412 · · Score: 2

    Why is the gender choice or alignment or preference or whatever of Manning even relevant to any of the current discussions, and why of all things it it relevant here? Sigh....

    1. Re:Why is this relevant? by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 1

      It's relevant because it's happening to Manning, who, whether he likes it or not, is a figure in the public eye, and I'd guess that more than a few people here are actually interested in what's happening with him personally.

      --
      systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
  30. The Full Statement by Iridium_Hack · · Score: 5, Informative
    Actually, I heard that the following statement was made by Bradly Manning and picked up by the Associated Press. He made it to the President in a request for a pardon. In my opinion, these two statements don't sound like they came from the same person. With as much embarrassment and/or trouble as the Bradley Manning case has caused the government, adding a little spicy twist on the story in the end doesn't sound unlikely.

    Associated Press — FORT MEADE, Md. — The text of U.S. Army Pfc. Bradley Manning’s statement that will be sent to the president, as read by defense attorney David Coombs following Manning’s sentencing Wednesday, below:

    --------

    Manning's statement, in full:

    The decisions that I made in 2010 were made out of a concern for my country and the world that we live in. Since the tragic events of 9/11, our country has been at war. We’ve been at war with an enemy that chooses not to meet us on any traditional battlefield, and due to this fact we’ve had to alter our methods of combating the risks posed to us and our way of life.

    I initially agreed with these methods and chose to volunteer to help defend my country. It was not until I was in Iraq and reading secret military reports on a daily basis that I started to question the morality of what we were doing.

    It was at this time I realized that (in) our efforts to meet the risk posed to us by the enemy, we have forgotten our humanity. We consciously elected to devalue human life both in Iraq and Afghanistan. When we engaged those that we perceived were the enemy, we sometimes killed innocent civilians. Whenever we killed innocent civilians, instead of accepting responsibility for our conduct, we elected to hide behind the veil of national security and classified information in order to avoid any public accountability. In our zeal to kill the enemy, we internally debated the definition of torture. We held individuals at Guantanamo for years without due process. We inexplicably turned a blind eye to torture and executions by the Iraqi government. And we stomached countless other acts in the name of our war on terror.

    Patriotism is often the cry extolled when morally questionable acts are advocated by those in power. When these cries of patriotism drown out any logically based dissension, it is usually the American soldier that is given the order to carry out some ill-conceived mission.

    Our nation has had similar dark moments for the virtues of democracy — the Trail of Tears, the Dred Scott decision, McCarthyism, and the Japanese-American internment camps — to mention a few. I am confident that many of the actions since 9/11 will one day be viewed in a similar light.

    As the late Howard Zinn once said, “There is not a flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people.”

    I understand that my actions violated the law; I regret if my actions hurt anyone or harmed the United States. It was never my intent to hurt anyone. I only wanted to help people. When I chose to disclose classified information, I did so out of a love for my country and a sense of duty to others.

    If you deny my request for a pardon, I will serve my time knowing that sometimes you have to pay a heavy price to live in a free society.

    I will gladly pay that price if it means we could have a country that is truly conceived in liberty and dedicated to the proposition that all women and men are created equal.

    1. Re:The Full Statement by Princeofcups · · Score: 3, Insightful

      This is as poignant and germane as any revolutionary war document. I'd vote for Manning as a member of the new constitutional congress.

      --
      The only thing worse than a Democrat is a Republican.
    2. Re:The Full Statement by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Or his lawyer, since, you know, that's who wrote this.

    3. Re:The Full Statement by Iridium_Hack · · Score: 1

      Agreed. And I'm not going to judge Bradley Manning on his personal life one way or another. Attacks and slander on a person's sex life seem to always come up when someone goes against big people. Assange himself seems to have also (what a coincidence!) been accused of perverted behaviour. But far as judging what Manning did in releasing classified files, all sides seem to agree that he did it because in his conscience he felt the stuff had to be exposed. And who did it hurt. . . . really? The people who had decisions that were morally or ethically dark they wanted to hide. Ooops!

  31. News for nerds by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Stuff that matters

  32. So Mr. Manning "suffers from" narcissism? by Harvey+Manfrenjenson · · Score: 3, Funny

    Kind of an absurd turn of phrase, isn't it? It's a bit like saying that someone "suffers from" being an asshole.

    (Whether Manning deserves to be called a narcissist at all... that is, of course, a whole other question).

    1. Re:So Mr. Manning "suffers from" narcissism? by jimmifett · · Score: 1

      I suffer from being an egotistical prick.
      Do you know how hard it is, every single day, walking around knowing that you are smarter than 99% of the people you know, having to be surrounded by dumbasses and pretend to give their asinine opinions merit?

      Waking up every morning, dreading driving to work because one is surrounded by idiots that can't drive in the rain, signal, or put on wigs and lipstick while driving?
      Having to go to lunch and watch as your coworkers can't figure out a tip without a calculator? Slide the decimal one digit left and add half the result!

      More people should think of MY feelings, after all, the universe does in fact revolve around me. /sarcasm

  33. Strategy by czernabog · · Score: 1

    Am I the only one who thinks there's a big possibility that this is just a desperate move in order to gain sympathy disguising himself as a member of an oppressed demographic?
    Not that I have any objection, if I were in his shoes I'd be desperate enough to try it too.

    1. Re:Strategy by Seumas · · Score: 1

      Right, because if there's anything most Americans are sympathetic towards, it's people who are gay or have gender identity issues.

    2. Re:Strategy by czernabog · · Score: 1

      I sense that you're being sarcastic. It's not about winning the favour of most people. It's about giving a different spin to the issue and garnering the support of people and entities that defend transgenders' rights.

  34. Rape jokes are not funny by jellybear · · Score: 3, Funny

    unless they involve prison. Am I politically correct yet?

    1. Re:Rape jokes are not funny by bitt3n · · Score: 2

      unless they involve prison. Am I politically correct yet?

      you got modded funny, so no, not yet.

  35. Let's Not Be Jerks by assertation · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Speaking as a straight, cisgendered ( transgender people's word for "normal" ), white, and quite handsome man.........please lets not make fun of Manning.

    He is a human being, some who consider to be a hero, who just happens to have problems.

    1. Re:Let's Not Be Jerks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Cisgendered means your brain gender matches your physical gender. The whole point of not using the word 'normal' is to avoid saying that people who are not cisgendered are not normal.

    2. Re:Let's Not Be Jerks by assertation · · Score: 2


      The actual term is "Sane".

      Really, it's no different than the delusions that one is Napoleon.
      Fierce denial of reality, construction their own delusions, self mutilation... these people need serious mental treatment, not coddling

      Manning and other transgender people know what reality is, therefore they are not insane.

      They have a mismatch between what their brain thinks their body should look like and what there bodies are like.

      It is similar to that story of the woman who wanted to cut her legs off because of a brain defect where the brain's sense of "normal" didn't include legs.

      She was perfectly sane, as are most transgender people, they were just born with a defective "checksum" in their brains.

      Now, hatred or loathing to people who have done nothing to you, that might just be a diagnosable neurosis, as well as one that might respond to treatment :)

    3. Re:Let's Not Be Jerks by LateArthurDent · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Cisgendered means your brain gender matches your physical gender. The whole point of not using the word 'normal' is to avoid saying that people who are not cisgendered are not normal.

      Which is stupid PC crap. Being transgendered isn't normal. Which is not to say that's a bad thing, they're just being offended for no reason. Normal means, "according with, constituting, or not deviating from a norm, rule, or principle". Think normal distribution. Most people are not transgendered, therefore being transgendered is not not normal.

      By itself, not being normal isn't offensive. Most people can't run as fast as Usain Bolt, therefore Usain Bolt isn't normal. That's not an insult.

    4. Re:Let's Not Be Jerks by LateArthurDent · · Score: 1

      You'll find that a binary random variable can't take a normal distribution.

      You would be incorrect

    5. Re:Let's Not Be Jerks by jasenj1 · · Score: 1

      I am left handed. That is not "normal". I am not offended.

    6. Re:Let's Not Be Jerks by Kjella · · Score: 1

      Normal means, "according with, constituting, or not deviating from a norm, rule, or principle". Think normal distribution.

      Funny, since the "normal" in normal distribution has nothing to do with the definition you quoted. That would be definition 5c:

      (of an orthogonal system of real functions) defined so that the integral of the square of the absolute value of any function is 1.

      Many of the antonyms to normal are insults, like for example normal vs sick people, normal vs insane people, normal vs handicapped people, normal vs disturbing behavior, normal vs perverted desires and so on. There are some inoffensive meanings that deal with common vs obscure and average vs extreme, but generally not being counted to one of the "normals" can be rather grossly insulting. Like "there's no elevator so you have to take the stairs but that shouldn't be a problem for normal people".

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    7. Re:Let's Not Be Jerks by Khashishi · · Score: 1

      Who wants to be normal? Normals are a bunch of buffoons.

    8. Re:Let's Not Be Jerks by Velex · · Score: 1

      You're not objectively wrong, but that's not the problem. You're assuming the term cisgendered is a PC term, which from my understanding of what I read in Julia Serano's Whipping Girl is not where it comes from or what its intended use is.

      It's a technical term like you or I might refer to hard drive connecters as PATA, SATA, or SCSI because we understand the difference.

      The problem is that people, especially feminists, are not objective. Many, especially feminists, don't simply view trans women as not normal, but sick and mentally ill. There's a lot of baggage that needs to be cleaned up in order to have an objective discussion about trans women and cis women in the context of feminism or larger/different contexts of transgender discrimination. Therefore, it's necessary to develop terms that put trans women and cis women on equal footing by adding a prefix to qualify womyn-born-womyn that's more functional than that hyphenated mess I just used. It's like recognizing handedness by saying left handed or right handed.

      I don't think that trans women as a whole have a desire to be identified as different from cis women, so trans- and cis- are not a terms that anyone generally wants paraded around outside of discussions like this one where it's necessary to draw a distinction.

      So, of course it's not normal in a statistical sense the same way left handedness and Usain Bolt's accomplishments aren't normal.

      The problem is individuals, especially feminists, who seek to dehumanize trans women by pointing out that they're not really women despite living, working, and being gendered by strangers on sight as being that gender. So, the solution is to fire back and call womyn-born-womyn "cis women."

      Protip (somewhat unrelated, but related to the feminist contention that trans women are not real women [which is about as detached from any argument from biology or geneology as you'd expect a feminist to be because they're arguing for gender castes, not objective criteria]): I've noticed that nearly 100% of the time a trans woman is portrayed by a male actor in the media, that actor hasn't had a drop of estrogen in his blood and thus does not have any of the physical changes that estrogen HRT brings. There are a lot of trans women out there you'd probably never guess are trans (Google HaRiSoo) because their facial features, voice, and body shape match what you've come to expect a woman should look and sound like, and at the same time, there are a lot of cis women out there you've probably suspected of being trans because their facial features, (uncommonly) voice, or body shape don't match what you've come to expect a woman should look like. (Then there are trans women who utterly don't and can't "pass" and don't care.)

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    9. Re:Let's Not Be Jerks by LateArthurDent · · Score: 1

      You're not objectively wrong, but that's not the problem. You're assuming the term cisgendered is a PC term, which from my understanding of what I read in Julia Serano's Whipping Girl is not where it comes from or what its intended use is.

      Actually, I was just objecting directly to the sentence, "The whole point of not using the word 'normal' is to avoid saying that people who are not cisgendered are not normal." I don't have a problem with the word.

      I've got absolutely nothing against gay or transgendered individuals. I think discrimination, and especially attempts to dehumanize others for who they are, as you've described, is despicable. That said, I do tend to be very much anti-PC. I think the proper response to someone trying to dehumanize transgendered individuals by saying they're not normal is to say, "no, we're not. What's your point? I assure you there are many ways in which you are not normal." Instead of being offended by words, or trying to change the usage of such words, I think any group being dehumanized wins these battles when we teach ourselves to not fall apart when words are used against us. Doing so robs them of their power.

      I'm not saying that's easy to do, either. However, it's a better goal to aim for than trying to get everyone else to walk on eggshells.

    10. Re:Let's Not Be Jerks by tnk1 · · Score: 1

      Not all people who are mentally ill have an inability to perceive reality. Many, if not most, simply just react differently to it. A sociopath understands what is going on, they can tell right or wrong, they just don't care. Indeed, if you look at it from an individual survival angle, they are actually quite adept at turning situations to their benefit, which you cannot easily do if you are unable to perceive reality.

      As you would suggest, the transgendered can easily see reality. A transgendered person could very well see that they are male, they'd very much prefer to be female, and since they cannot make that happen without someone else's assistance or cooperation, have a serious problem precisely since they can perceive reality. They realize that they would have more material benefits as a male than as a female, but they still don't care.

      We wouldn't give transgendered people surgery if they were "okay" in the bodies they had now. I don't get to have medically required plastic surgery because I don't like my nose, or I'm fat. You are put on HRT and get surgery precisely because you are NOT all right, or at least that is the theory. There are some people who have that taken care of early on, and so never become basket cases, but in theory, there would have to be some suggestion that they would have become that way eventually, if untreated, in order to warrant that sort of medical response.

    11. Re:Let's Not Be Jerks by pdabbadabba · · Score: 1

      Read your own definition more carefully: "not deviating from a norm, rule, or principle." This is not just a statistical definition; it's not coincidence that each of those terms has a normative meaning:

      Norms are things you should follow (or at least things people think you should follow): "a required standard; a level to be complied with or reached." Same with rules: "one of a set of explicit or understood regulations or principles governing conduct within a particular activity or sphere." Same with principles: "morally correct behavior and attitudes."

      If the word "normal" were only a statistical statement, I would (maybe) agree with you. But it isn't -- in exactly the way disclosed by that definition -- and we all know it. When a person is told that she isn't "normal" most people feel the sting (though sometimes, hopefully, the sting is masked or outweighed by pride). It is a statistical word loaded with cultural baggage. (Or perhaps the other way around.)

      "Cisgendered" is a funny word. I get it. I would feel goofy writing it, let alone speaking it out loud. But it seems to me that the right thing to do is to suck it up and feel goofy when the stakes are another person's dignity.

    12. Re:Let's Not Be Jerks by Maelwryth · · Score: 1
      "Which is stupid PC crap. Being transgendered isn't normal.

      It's perfectly normal. Been happening for thousands of years. Your forgetting that these are people, not a bell curve.

      --
      I reserve the write to mangle english.
    13. Re:Let's Not Be Jerks by Velex · · Score: 1

      Good points. Thanks for the clarification. One example I find interesting is the way the word queer has changed from being derogative to now being a legitimate label that certain people use to refer to themselves (e.g. genderqueer, queer folk, or simply queer).

      The word normal is a vague word that can be a loaded term while simultaneously having a more objective statistical meaning. Normal can mean anything from socially acceptable to pedestrian to commonplace to usual to mode (of a set) and I'm sure tons of other senses I'm not thinking about. Unfortunately, feminism, psychology, and religion have done a very good job of painting transgendered identities as a sign of serious mental illness possibly indicating the potential for violent behavior. Those attitudes are changing, particularly in psychology and clinical protocols, but those attitudes still linger fairly strongly in the public mind. I agree it's self-defeating to be overly sensitive, but there is some merit to being circumspect to whether the word normal is being used as a weapon or as an observation.

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  36. Name change? by Hognoxious · · Score: 4, Funny

    Bradley Womanning?

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    1. Re:Name change? by freeze128 · · Score: 1

      Bradley Womanning?

      No, Chelsea Womanning.

  37. Re:He's not a woman by ganjadude · · Score: 1

    jackson tried it right?

    --
    have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
  38. If i was going away for 35 years by cod3r_ · · Score: 4, Funny

    I'd ask to be put in a woman's jail as well.

  39. Re:He's not a woman by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 1

    Sex is biologically determined.

    Androgen insensitivity syndrome

    --
    systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
  40. It's a matter of degree by QilessQi · · Score: 3, Informative

    Narcissistic Personality Disorder is narcissism taken to unhealthy extremes; it describes only about 1 percent of the population. One might argue that "being an asshole" affects a far, far larger percentage.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder

    1. Re:It's a matter of degree by Seumas · · Score: 1

      Being an asshole doesn't affect me. It affects people around me. :)

    2. Re:It's a matter of degree by Harvey+Manfrenjenson · · Score: 2

      Narcissistic Personality Disorder is narcissism taken to unhealthy extremes; it describes only about 1 percent of the population.

      I was being flippant, but let me try to restate my point more seriously:

      There is something problematic with the idea of classifying a "personality disorder" as a type of medical disorder-- especially when the personality disorder is defined by qualities such as "arrogance" or "lack of empathy". The implication, which of course is never stated in so many words, is that "narcissism" is a condition similar to rheumatoid arthritis, and that we musn't blame those who are "afflicted" by it.

      (The diagnosis of "gender identity disorder" is problematic too, for a different reason. Most transgendered individuals would bristle at the idea that they have a medical disorder. They would point out that prior to 1980, homosexuality was classified as a medical disorder as well).

    3. Re:It's a matter of degree by tnk1 · · Score: 2

      Being gay isn't a disorder because there are no life-threatening physical characteristics to simply being gay. A gender disorder is like you inheriting a body part that could threaten your life due to it's very existence, like perhaps a third deformed leg which might have poor circulation and have a tendency to gangrene.

      In theory, being a female in a male body is so traumatic that said "mental" female cannot handle the repercussions of their own body. I'd say that's a disorder.

      You need to remember a "disorder" does not represent any judgement about a person morally. No one is going to argue with me if I hack off an extra limb that I believe could cause my death.

      That said, I am following the logic of what is actually suggested is the way gender disorders work. You have a physical mismatch in your physical and mental gender. That mismatch is so traumatic that it affects your normal functioning, so it is pathological. It's a condition which is believed to be best treated by altering an otherwise healthy body. I'd say that is pretty much a disorder. Let's not redefine medical terminology in our zeal to see that this terminology isn't used against people.

      If you have a real argument, your argument should be against the characterization of those afflicted with diseases or disorders as somehow immoral or unclean.

      The only other argument I would have is if they had characterized him has having this disorder, but he really didn't. However, it is pretty clear he believes that he does, and did so well before he ran into trouble with the Army. So whether or not the disorder is will cause a further disadvantage to him, that disorder was not fabricated by the prosecution for their benefit.

    4. Re:It's a matter of degree by QilessQi · · Score: 1

      I believe we're basically in agreement here. (And by the way, as I understand it, the term "gender identity disorder" was retired in favor of "gender dysphoria" for the DSM-V, exactly for the reasons you point out: it's no longer considered a disorder.)

      But we haven't really classified a personality trait as a medical disorder. Ordinary narcissism is still narcissism. Extreme narcissism is still narcissism. But extreme narcissism which with the following symptoms becomes highly problematic for the individual and those around them, and thus is distinguished as "Narcissistic Personality Disorder":

      - Expects to be recognized as superior and special, without superior accomplishments
      - Expects constant attention, admiration and positive reinforcement from others
      - Envies others and believes others envy him/her
      - Is preoccupied with thoughts and fantasies of great success, enormous attractiveness, power, intelligence
      - Lacks the ability to empathize with the feelings or desires of others
      - Is arrogant in attitudes and behavior
      - Has expectations of special treatment that are unrealistic

      I mean, we could call this "Delusional Disorder #521", but since the nature of the disorder is a super-magnified version of the narcissistic personality trait, "Narcissistic Personality Disorder" is a better mnemonic.

      And I do still blame people if they're being arrogant pricks, whether they fall into this class or not. The only difference to me is that if they've been diagnosed with NPD, they go from being "arrogant pricks who need to grow up" to "arrogant pricks who should be in therapy or on meds".

  41. Oh Slashdot .. by Jon_E · · Score: 1

    you shall now be referred to as .\

    ambiguous Reuters report referencing a statement from the NBC Today pseudo-news talk show, that has very little now to do with tech? where are your standards now?

    1. Re:Oh Slashdot .. by Anarchduke · · Score: 1

      i think it would be a ".o" instead of a ".\", considering chelsea wants gender reassignment.

      --
      who prays for Satan? Who in 18 centuries has had the humanity to pray for the 1 sinner that needed it most? ~Mark Twain
  42. Boo, slashdot was:Re:Bravo, Washington Post by damn_registrars · · Score: 1

    I read about this on WaPo about half an hour ago, where I noticed they did an incredibly intelligent and thoughtful thing: they disabled comments. Now if only that were possible on /.

    The right thing here for slashdot would have been to not feature this story at all. It isn't about technology in any meaningful way. This was run just to draw eyeballs in and get people excited in the discussion. Being as pretty well nobody here is discussing the technical aspects of what Manning has been sentenced to 37 years in jail for, it seems to have worked well for its intended purpose.

    --
    Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
  43. Re:I want stuff too! by Opportunist · · Score: 1

    Want to be candidate for Congress or Senate?

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  44. Re:Huh. by Opportunist · · Score: 1

    What do you expect from "secret" kangaroo courts but a trolling?

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  45. Re:Sick Freak by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

    THE GAY AGENDA

    XD

    --
    "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
  46. Swore it was an Onion headline by GameboyRMH · · Score: 2

    With this timing, I had to re-read the headline in my RSS reader 3 times to be sure it wasn't from The Onion. Apparently this isn't new information but it was the first I'd heard of it.

    --
    "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
  47. Re:Sounds like they thoroughly broke him by Shilly_McShillington · · Score: 1

    Its so nice that we get to see the personal issues of people exposed when we need to destroy them. We can get a lot of people on board this way. He could have sympathy from people who are religiously contemplative however when so many of their peers say he is an abomination then it only makes sense to go along with that line of thinking. Well done everyone!

  48. Actually, yes, she is by QilessQi · · Score: 1

    Gender reassignment surgery helps someone "be who they are", and works very well.

    If it helps, you can think of gender reassignment in the same way as a prosthetic for people born with missing legs or arms. Those people could "live in the real world" with their disability, or we can give them a way to achieve what they desire.

    As for your "black/white" example: most people with dark skin *like* who they are, *like* their skin color, and don't see themselves as "suffering" directly because of it. Rather, their suffering is because some racist whites are *making* them suffer needlessly. It's a different thing entirely.

    1. Re:Actually, yes, she is by CronoCloud · · Score: 1

      Gender reassignment surgery helps someone "be who they are", and works very well.

      Hell, Magnus Hirschfeld figured out a century ago that the best treatment was for transpeople to live as their preferred gender.

  49. Reprogramming therapy? by Carnivore24 · · Score: 1

    He must have gone through some intense brain zapping and heavy drugs to start thinking and wanting to do this.

  50. Re:Propaganda? by Shilly_McShillington · · Score: 1

    Indeed it we should know all of your dirty little secrets. As long as you are not part of the system that is.

  51. Other wish. by dohzer · · Score: 1

    (S)he probably walso ants to live as a woman that isn't in prison, but we can't always get what we want.

  52. Kill (the character of) the Messenger by bareman · · Score: 1

    Yes, we should all focus on really important things like Bradley's gender identity and not wasting any more time on all that trivial information about what the government is doing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contents_of_the_United_States_diplomatic_cables_leak

    Good to see priorities are in order.

    1. Re:Kill (the character of) the Messenger by dmt0 · · Score: 1

      He gets tortured for over a year.
      He gives a statement in court saying he's sorry for everything he's done.
      He does complete self character assassination saying he wants to change gender.
      Psychiatrist confirms he has a set of disorders.
      Damage control in action.

  53. Re:Sick Freak by Crimey+McBiggles · · Score: 1

    There wouldn't be a "gay agenda" (as a concept, not an actual agenda) if there weren't bigots running about with an [actual] anti-gay agenda.

    --
    Crimey
  54. Christine Jorgensen by frank249 · · Score: 1

    Christine Jorgensen in 1952 was an American who was the first person to become widely known in the United States for having sex reassignment surgery—in this case, male to female. She had served in the Army before going to Sweden for the sex change operation. I think it was Bob Hope who quiped that "Christine Jorgensen was the first guy to go abroad and come back a broad."

    --

    Today's vices may be tomorrow's virtues.

  55. Worst prisons in the world? by Firethorn · · Score: 1

    What about France, Hong Kong, Venezuela, Israel, etc...?

    Oh, and it's five US prisons. ADX Florence, Riker Island, San Quentin, Alcatraz, and Attica. Did you review the list? The including of US prison ADX Florence Supermax looks sterile, compared to the preceding burned & gutted cell in Venezuela and followed by a picture of blindfolded inmates in a Syrian prison which had 2.4k inmates executed 3 decades ago.

    I have to say that I question the 'merits' by which US prisons are on the list. 'Many suicides' doesn't really have the bite of '2.4k executed by presidential order', or '111 killed in a riot'. Heck, San Quentin mentions that it holds 4k prisoners and has the largest death row in the USA, but doesn't mention WHY it's otherwise among the worst prisons in the world. I'd have to say that US prisons probably made the list more due to ease of research and the need to have 'USA' in there somewhere. They even had to reach further back into the past.

    Also, multiple prisons from Venezuela, Brazil and elsewhere are on the list

    --
    I don't read AC A human right
    1. Re:Worst prisons in the world? by HornWumpus · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Alcatraz hasn't been a prison for about 50 years. It is a tourist trap, and you don't want to drop the soap anywhere nearby.

      Whoever made the list had an agenda.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
  56. Sounds like false flag to me. by Chas · · Score: 2

    Honestly,

    It seems like this tidbit of info, coming when it has, is pitch perfect to make people stop listening to the Bradley Manning situation and turn the whole fiasco into a bad joke.

    Isn't that just TERRIBLY convenient for the government?

    --


    Chas - The one, the only.
    THANK GOD!!!
    1. Re:Sounds like false flag to me. by Nyder · · Score: 1

      Honestly,

      It seems like this tidbit of info, coming when it has, is pitch perfect to make people stop listening to the Bradley Manning situation and turn the whole fiasco into a bad joke.

      Isn't that just TERRIBLY convenient for the government?

      agree, I have a hard time believing this. It's sounding to me the government is using whatever means to justify the sentence. "See, he think he's god, and *gasp* he wants to be a woman!"

       

      --
      Be seeing you...
  57. Propaganda? by imag0 · · Score: 2

    The timing seems... odd to me. Right when people are using this guy as a hero and poster boy for whistleblowing and BAM. Try to make him look "a little off in the head" instead.

    Just seems rather PSYOP-flavored story. I'm probably wrong, but it feels that way.

  58. BCD != DD by Firethorn · · Score: 2

    I'll just chime in that while it's probably 45% of jobs TOTAL, a BCD(Bad Conduct Discharge) is different and actually better than a Dishonorable. Most of them fixed on the point that people with one are felons, so any positions that ban felons also ban DDs.

    A BCD is a misdemeanor level discharge, a DD is a felony level. I'm not a military lawyer, but that's how I understand it.

    --
    I don't read AC A human right
    1. Re:BCD != DD by bmk67 · · Score: 1

      Not exactly. Many states treat a DD as equivalent to a felony conviction. To get a DD, you have to do something the military considers pretty heinous. A BCD can be given after serving time in military prison for some very serious crimes, not all of which are misdemeanors. It's up to the discretion of the court-martial.

    2. Re:BCD != DD by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      "Many states"? I'd say ALL states. It's a federal level felony conviction. BCD might have confinement beforehand - but the question there is 'how long'? Remember, the standard rule is that felonies are possible confinement of more than a year, misdemeanors a year or less. And yes, even at that standard you can commit some very serious crimes.

      The mapping isn't exact, no, but like I said, that's my non-lawyer understanding of it.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
  59. Message to whistle blowers: We'll do more than... by bussdriver · · Score: 1

    Risk of jail? Worth it; it's for the good of mankind.
    Risk of being so messed up I want to change genders? ah... somebody else can leak it.

  60. Re:He's not a woman by Firethorn · · Score: 1

    Heh, missed the original post and thought "Androgen insensitivity is still biological!", but went back and saw the AC mentioned 'determined by DNA', so you have a point. ;)

    Yes, I'll consider a person with total androgen insensitivity a woman. It can be more complicated if the insensitivity isn't total, there's a surprising amount of grey area.

    --
    I don't read AC A human right
  61. Nice Try, but fail. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Nice try.

    Nice try, and it might have worked; had Manning not released thousands of documents he never read as well as evidence of wrong doing.

    And since he dumped those thousands of other documents, he loses his moral high-ground, and this statement is just a reflection of the same narcissism that he had when he released those thousands of other documents to begin with.

    So fail.

  62. A full quote from Manning by Iridium_Hack · · Score: 1
    I've put this in once already - and it appears to have gotten taken out for some reason. interesting. Here it is again. . . a full quote from Bradley Manning to the president, asking for a pardon. Doesn't sound like the same person. Here is a quote you might not have seen: "When these cries of patriotism drown out any logically based dissension, it is usually the American soldier that is given the order to carry out some ill-conceived mission." Manning's statement, in full:

    The decisions that I made in 2010 were made out of a concern for my country and the world that we live in. Since the tragic events of 9/11, our country has been at war. We’ve been at war with an enemy that chooses not to meet us on any traditional battlefield, and due to this fact we’ve had to alter our methods of combating the risks posed to us and our way of life.

    I initially agreed with these methods and chose to volunteer to help defend my country. It was not until I was in Iraq and reading secret military reports on a daily basis that I started to question the morality of what we were doing.

    It was at this time I realized that (in) our efforts to meet the risk posed to us by the enemy, we have forgotten our humanity.

    We consciously elected to devalue human life both in Iraq and Afghanistan. When we engaged those that we perceived were the enemy, we sometimes killed innocent civilians. Whenever we killed innocent civilians, instead of accepting responsibility for our conduct, we elected to hide behind the veil of national security and classified information in order to avoid any public accountability.

    In our zeal to kill the enemy, we internally debated the definition of torture. We held individuals at Guantanamo for years without due process. We inexplicably turned a blind eye to torture and executions by the Iraqi government. And we stomached countless other acts in the name of our war on terror.

    Patriotism is often the cry extolled when morally questionable acts are advocated by those in power. When these cries of patriotism drown out any logically based dissension, it is usually the American soldier that is given the order to carry out some ill-conceived mission.

    Our nation has had similar dark moments for the virtues of democracy — the Trail of Tears, the Dred Scott decision, McCarthyism, and the Japanese-American internment camps — to mention a few. I am confident that many of the actions since 9/11 will one day be viewed in a similar light.

    As the late Howard Zinn once said, “There is not a flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people.”

    I understand that my actions violated the law; I regret if my actions hurt anyone or harmed the United States. It was never my intent to hurt anyone. I only wanted to help people. When I chose to disclose classified information, I did so out of a love for my country and a sense of duty to others.

    If you deny my request for a pardon, I will serve my time knowing that sometimes you have to pay a heavy price to live in a free society.

    I will gladly pay that price if it means we could have a country that is truly conceived in liberty and dedicated to the proposition that all women and men are created equal.

  63. Of Course, You have to wonder, by Iridium_Hack · · Score: 1

    With no previous history on this before now, plus holding him for several years, naked, with torture - - - do they have anything they could use against him (ie. blackmail)? To get this kind of confession from him after being sentenced makes little sense. And if the army were to say he had gender emotional problems before he was sentenced. . . . well if that is the case, why did they hire/put him in such a sensitive position? A lot of stuff doesn't make sense here.

  64. Why is it trolling? by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

    What you're assuming is that he really wants to be a woman.

    Just as easily, he could CLAIM to want to be a woman. He knows the military will not do this operation, but if he convinces the physiologists well enough perhaps he could be assigned to a womans prison anyway. This would have all kinds of benefits for him, the chief one being he would be in a prison not full of guys far larger and stronger than him that all hated him. If for no other reason alone that would be worth the pretense.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  65. Good for him by Meeni · · Score: 1

    Good for him, but why should I (or we) care ? This is people mags material now.

  66. Ahhh... now that explains everything... by Pav · · Score: 1

    ...the fact that a soldier with gender issues was the only one with the balls to report those coverups... nowTHAT'd threaten some fragile masculinity.

  67. Re:Sounds like they thoroughly broke him by lxs · · Score: 1

    we were mislead into thinking that he'd put up a bigger fight.

    Why would he? One act of bravery on this scale is enough for two lifetimes. Adding an act of stupidity (putting pride above reason and risking the maximum punishment) would have accomplished nothing.

    Let's hope Snowden doesn't do the same!

    Snowden fled the country before the shit hit the fan unlike Manning who stayed put and faced the authorities on their turf. By your standards that would make Snowden the lesser man.

    Which is actually a big disappointment for myself and others who supported him

    Fickle supporters like yourself who retreat into bigotry because your hero doesn't live up to the unrealistic Hollywood template in your head must be an even greater disappointment to Manning.

  68. What a dick. by johnlcallaway · · Score: 1

    Oh .. wait .... nevermind.....

    --
    I rarely read replies, it's my opinion and if you thought about your opinion a little more, I'm OK with that.
  69. Disqualified for security clearance ... by drnb · · Score: 1

    I do believe he was struggling with gender identity issues before this whole ordeal.

    Gay or straight should not matter for a security clearance. Identity should not matter for a security clearance. However ***currently struggling*** with a major psychological issue should disqualify someone from holding a security clearance. Did Manning receive a pass due to political correctness?

    1. Re:Disqualified for security clearance ... by tnk1 · · Score: 1

      He probably received a pass due to: "We need manpower, just fucking pass him."

  70. The Final Solution by Baldrson · · Score: 1

    To the "How can a nerd get a date?" question.

  71. So now ... by somarilnos · · Score: 1

    ...the conservatives will jump ship on the 'defending Manning' bandwagon. The only force stronger than supporting the leak of classified information is pure, unbridled, fear of what they don't understand.

  72. re: us vs. them mentality by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I'd agree with most of your statements, but only because (referring to the USA at least) our legal system and law enforcement system have become corrupt enough that it's quite profitable to keep the prisons as full as possible. When you have mandatory sentencing including jail time for victimless drug offenses, for example, it means you're definitely going to lock a lot of people up who don't mean any harm and are in all probability, pretty decent folks.

    IMO, if the system worked properly, you wouldn't waste the taxpayer's money jailing anyone for such crimes as prostitution or drug possession. You'd also not have felony crimes with prison time for consensual "sex crimes" (such as an older teenager having sex with a 15 year old minor).

    If you started reserving the prison time for the violent offenders, with the occasional sentence thrown in for the repeated theft of large dollar amounts -- then I think it really would be much more of an "us vs. them" situation that was warranted. Govt. should only be locking people up if they pose a true danger to society ... not because it's viewed as a "good, strict punishment" that will "make people think twice about committing a crime again".

  73. Re:fetal alcohol syndrome by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

    Didn't notice until you pointed it out.

    Manning has a very weak labia on his upper lip (Thats the 'cleft' in the upper lip, right under the nose, not the fun labia an actual woman has). Classic sign of fetal alcohol syndrome.

    --
    John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
  74. Re:Sounds like they thoroughly broke him by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

    Plastic surgeons can do shit for hands. If you want to know how old someone is that's had extensive work done, look at their hands.

    Same goes for he/shes. They can trim an Adam's apple. Nothing they can do for man hands.

    --
    John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
  75. Re:Bradley Manning by CronoCloud · · Score: 1

    Me, I've got the triangle and I'm not currently transitioning, so I look like a short slightly chubby nerdy guy with a ponytail. But yeah, lots of trans-people (Including some crossdressers) look gender variant in "guy-mode".

    I get "sirred" now more than I did because I toned down the "slip sliding into androgyny" for work purposes.

    I've been female pronouned at drivers license renewal, while shopping, even on the phone which I consider hilarious because to me I don't sound "girly" at all. Though I've been told I tend to use a more female style enunciation and word choices.

    And yes, it happened a LOT more when I was a young slip of a thing.

  76. Chelsea 35, Bush 0 by Geste · · Score: 2

    What, 600 comments and nobody says how friggin' lopsided this is? A person with big personal issues -- but not a war criminal -- gets 35, while war criminals walk the streets unmolested, get thousands for speaking engagements and even get in our Face the Nation. Bradley, Chelsea, whatever. Not fair.

  77. Obligatory Monty Python by msobkow · · Score: 1

    "I want to be one. From now on, I want you to call me 'Loretta'."

    --
    I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
  78. Re:Propaganda? by tnk1 · · Score: 1

    And that's why you need to sometimes apply critical thought to both sides of a story. Sometimes, it isn't a psyop, sometimes truth is simply stranger than fiction. You should be skeptical of any possible knee-jerk reaction you might have to something like this.

    It probably didn't come up because both sides were not really interested in turning this into LGBT situation. Manning didn't want being gay/trans to get in the way of his message, and the Feds probably wanted to save it for trial and not have every LGBT activist on their back leading up to it.

    Now that he's safely convicted, Manning is looking towards making the best of the situation. I'd say this is to his benefit more than the Army's. He really has nothing to lose at this point and has the potential to get what he has been hoping to get.

  79. Worth Watching by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Here is an example of a very articulate army officer in the Australian Army who is transgender.
    It is very interesting and, I think, quite moving.

    I offer this as information for those, like me, who are not transgender, but wish to gain some understanding of the complications and difficulties of transition.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPsYWN-mW-s

    The fact that Lieutenant Colonel Cate McGregor is, like Manning, in the army makes it apposite.

  80. Only pussy he gonna get for next 35 years by Yakasha · · Score: 1

    nt

  81. Re:Only in America! by MightyYar · · Score: 1

    You may have noticed that we've been working on that lately...

    Also, it sounds like maybe the guy was kind of being a dipshit. Medicaid probably would have covered his operation, but I don't know the details. The problem with Medicaid is you have to be destitute, so many people go bankrupt over their major medical problems.

    --
    W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
  82. Damn, man, what did they DO to you in Room 101? by The+Archon+V2.0 · · Score: 1

    I mean... wow.

    1. Re:Damn, man, what did they DO to you in Room 101? by Swampash · · Score: 1

      My first thought too.

      He's had three years of solitary confinement in the custody of forces determined to break him.

      If he can remember his own name after that I'd be impressed.

  83. Narrcisim by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Narricism seems like a thoroughly unwarranted slam in this case and a major case of projection on the government's part.

  84. funny by ILongForDarkness · · Score: 1

    I was just thinking yesterday that he gave the impression of someone that might have a little to tell but I wouldn't ask. Now it is confirmed. Is it okay to be straight and have a gaydar?

  85. He's was a nut job; his bosses should be in prison by BlueCoder · · Score: 1

    Manning is a confused nut. He obviously had and has issues. I could theoretically admired him and condemned him before I found out he was a nut case. (He's not a nut for wanting to be a women; that confusion is just part of his problems.) I have to put blame of those under whom he worked. You don't let a nut job (confused and troubled individual) handle and process classified information. You supervise your employees. I believe his commanders should be the ones in jail.

    He was working with classified info. The moment he said he didn't want to be in the army his security clearance should have been revoked and he should have been moved to non secure work. It's really that simple.

    P.S. I remember my short stint in the military a long time ago. They kicked me out because I couldn't do enough pushups. My MOS was 74D. I would like had the same access as manning or probably even better since all he did was have access at a terminal. I wanted to serve, had skills far beyond my MOS training and I knew my place and yet they kicked me out because my body didn't respond to traditional physical training.

  86. It's not a TripAdvisor review. by Comboman · · Score: 1

    To be fair, the US prisons on that list were elaborate clean facilities, unlike most of the rest.

    Yes, the US prisons are clean and in good repair compared to the ones in poor third-world countries. But guess what? US schools and hospitals are also clean and in good repair compared to the ones in poor third-world countries. This isn't a review of hotels on TripAdvisor. The prisons are being judged for how humanly they treat the inmates, not whether or not they have bed bugs.

    --
    Support Right To Repair Legislation.
  87. Absolutely it's life threatening by Beryllium+Sphere(tm) · · Score: 1

    Suicide rates among gender dysphorics are horrifying.

  88. Brain settings by Beryllium+Sphere(tm) · · Score: 1

    Zhou et. al. (1997) found brain areas that differ in size between men and women, and which had the typical female size in trans women.

    Rational questions remain, but add that to the experiences of trans people who know their mismatched gender all the way down and can't change it, and it's a coherent theory.

  89. Joining the military is a common pattern by Beryllium+Sphere(tm) · · Score: 1

    People trying to live according to their below-the-neck settings and override their brain settings often try the discipline and fixed roles of a military career.

  90. The case for saying "she" by Beryllium+Sphere(tm) · · Score: 1

    All our interactions with Manning will be with Manning's brain, not with Manning's chromosomes.

    If the brain setting is "female", then "she" makes sense logically.

  91. Exactly right by Beryllium+Sphere(tm) · · Score: 1

    Gender dysphoria can start in early childhood.

  92. Etiquette alert by Beryllium+Sphere(tm) · · Score: 1

    Many trans people use the word "tranny" among themselves, and many experience it as a vicious slur if it comes from a stranger. It's best avoided in general.

  93. Human bodies are technology by Beryllium+Sphere(tm) · · Score: 1

    I had to give myself a crash course when a large number of trans* people suddenly landed in my online life. Human gender identity turns out to be at least as complicated as anything else in biology and the details are fascinating.

  94. Catch-all gender by TinyTiger8 · · Score: 1

    I am sorry to defecate on anyone's parade, but nobody seems to question Manning's ability to actually be a woman? Womanhood is not a default state, and not a catch-all for men's failure to have a workable and broad enough definition of themselves. Cutting off your dick does not make you a woman. If he is unable to deal with his male body, what makes you think that he will be able to deal with his female make-over? Of course for the next 35 years he won't have to put up with the issues of rape (well, maybe not), -17% average salary for the same job, and never even being heard again on technical and scientific subject-matters. And of course his make-over does not include bearing and raising children either. Woman- schwoman.

  95. Re:Prove it. by okcdan · · Score: 1

    I agree 100%. He went beyond just pissing off and embarrassing people. I was surprised at his relatively light sentence, and then it "came out" that he wants to live as a woman and be referred to as Chelsea. I don't buy this load of shit either.

    --
    D.