Slashdot Mirror
Redesigned Seats Let Airlines Squeeze In More Passengers
Hugh Pickens DOT Com writes "AP reports that U.S. airlines are taking out old, bulky seats in favor of so-called slimline models that take up less space from front to back, allowing for five or six more seats on each plane. This gives airlines two of their favorite things: more paying passengers, and a smaller fuel bill (the seats are slightly lighter). Whether the new seats are really closer together depends on how you measure. By the usual measure, called 'pitch,' the new ones are generally an inch closer together from front to back as measured at the armrest. The seats Southwest has put on nearly its entire fleet are 31 inches apart, about an inch less than before, allowing them to to add an extra row of six seats to each plane. International passengers are feeling crowded, too. As recently as 2010, most airlines buying Boeing's big 777 opted for nine seats across. Now it's 10 across on 70 percent of newly-built 777s, Boeing says. American's newest 777s are set up 10-across in coach, with slightly narrower seats than on its older 777s. Airlines say you won't notice. And the new seats are designed to minimize this problem. Airplane seats from 30 years ago looked like your grandmother's BarcaLounger, says Jami Counter, senior director at SeatGuru.com, which tracks airline seats and amenities. 'All that foam cushion and padding probably didn't add all that much comfort. All that's been taken out,' he said. 'You haven't really lost all that much if the airline does it right.'"
The saving made by the more fat Americans they squeeze in per square inch will be eaten up in increased fuel costs
I recently flew on a rather old African owned plane (run by a state airline). It being my first experience with this style of airline (the only other African airline I'd flown was SAA, which is no better or worse than the average European airline), it was interesting. E.g. there was heaps of leg room! It was amazing compared to the other airlines I'd been flying. Economy class was actually comfortable for me, even without pushing the seatback back (which I never like doing if there is someone behind me, I think airlines should remove that option).
On the newer planes though, I always have to get an aisle seat, otherwise I am uncomfortable the entire flight.
Fuck the airlines.
HELP MY ACCOUNT HAS BEEN HACKED BY AN ILLIBERAL ART STUDENT SET TO DESTROY THE INTERWEBZ!
Every plane trip you go on will offer you a life jacket. In the past 60 years, I'm confident that a life jacket hasn't saved a life, but it's cost a fortune in fuel over that time...
As a man who is 6'6" and 255, I have a place in mind where they can stick these new seats.
Would be comfier at this rate.
I'd start by saying that I'm bigger than the average. Still, having sat in the slim seats for several travels, I have to say they are more comfortable than the old ones, even in a 3-4-3 row setting. I actually feel like having more leg space (especially for my knees) even if the seat in front of me is reclined. If they all will be like the slim seats on transatlantic LH flights, then I'd take them anytime over the old style seats.
I am putting myself to the fullest possible use, which is all I can think that any conscious entity can ever hope to do.
I've more or less stopped flying because of all the nuisance fees combined with the delay/hassle of security screening at the airport. If I need to get somewhere REALLY far away, I'll bite the bullet, but for the most part I've switched to trains and driving.
Came across twice on that. Barcalounger? How about a 5-star hotel. Took a while longer.
Yeah, the same Bremen, only back in the 60s.
There are no pictures or diagrams of what the seat design looked like before and after. No discussion of the ergonomics of the change. No nothing.
Just another bitch session about big evil corporate airlines taking bailout money and treating people more like cattle.
The sad thing is that I might have expected better from Slashdot 10 years ago, but today this is just what I expect.
For shame.
I'm 6'5" (1.96m) and the biggest problem I have is the seat width. Thing is, I'm not fat, not particularly broad built or even unusually tall. It's just really difficult to get in them, especially when the arms are fixed. The seats as it stands are made for people who are 5'8" or smaller.
This isn't progress, it's shameful profiteering.
Jami Counter, senior director at SeatGuru.com, which tracks airline seats and amenities. 'All that foam cushion and padding probably didn't add all that much comfort. All that's been taken out,' he said. 'You haven't really lost all that much if the airline does it right.'"
He shouted from business class.
I wonder if we made a law that said all airline executives had to fly economy whether they would be so keen to make these changes
Choose your allies carefully, it is highly unlikely you will be held accountable for the actions of your enemies
If people just go to their favorite travel website and sort flights by cost this will continue to happen. Consumers are giving the signal they care about nothing other than cost. If it becomes uncomfortable enough that people select airlines based on comfort over price the airlines will respond. They just want the money. If they could get away with charging more for bean bag seats they would respond.
I love Jesus, except for his foreign policy.
I'm a big guy. Not necessarily that I'm fat; but, I have a large frame and wide shoulders. Knowing this I always try to get a window or aisle seat. I found the seats on my last flight to be so tight and I had to lean to one side to avoid constantly rubbing shoulders and arms with the person sitting next to me. Take out another inch of width away and I'm just not going to fit.
"The seats Southwest has put on nearly its entire fleet are 31 inches apart, about an inch less than before"
" Boeing says. American's newest 777s are set up 10-across in coach"
I'm 6'6" (198cm) and on behalf of tall people everywhere can I express a warm and heartfelt welcome to this policy of even further reducing the amount of room available, if this trend continues soon the we tall people will only be able to fly coach by adopting the Dwi Pada Sirsasana pose which if nothing else should please yoga instructors.
I've wondered for a long time why airline seats are so (seemingly) heavy. It seemed like a no-brainer that they'd be spending money on lighter weight seats. So, I was really surprised upon reading the article that the guy from Recaro said that 5 years ago, their seats weight about 29 lbs. That's surprisingly light for a seat that size and apparent heft when you look at them. Even more incredible is they've managed to save a further 9 lbs off that with their lightest current seat.
At 6'4 I'm pretty protective over my legroom. In my opinion they should improve coach by just not allowing reclining seats. I know that will never "fly", but it really pisses me off when some 5'1 person in front of me reclines their seat all the way back into me once the plane takes off. I just pretend the seat is back in its upright position, and if that means they get bumped every two minutes, they can just move their seatback forward. I guess it's only going to get worse. Or, I have to get a lot richer and start flying in a more expensive class.
www.clarke.ca
Sardines claim conditions cramped in tin.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Idd32nyf1pc
If Pandora's box is destined to be opened, *I* want to be the one to open it.
A bunch of tubes (or padded cubes) where the passenger slides in, a hatch is closed behind them and soothing music is piped in to help them sleep (or gas, whichever works best).
[John]
Shit better not happen!
Narrower and smaller? As American narrows seats and strips padding, Americans have been redesigning their seats fatter and wider for 30 years.
And adding inch after inch of padding, too.
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
Rather than do this incremental changes, why don't the airlines simply jump to their end game: drug economy class passengers, slap diapers on them, and put them in cargo?
I am sure that people are working on promoting this as a anti-terrorist measure. (Won't someone think of the children?) Kind of reminds me of slowly boiling a frog in water, except we are the frogs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_frog
If only we had decent high-speed rail options in North America. Whenever I fly to Europe, I typically take direct flights to hubs such as Frankfurt which have convenient rail stations, and then take a high speed train to my target city, if the train ride is less than 5 hours. (It is usually the cheaper and more convenient option, that takes the same amount of time, since it takes you straight to the city center, and avoids going through European airport security, waiting for a connecting flight, and taking another train to get from the airport to the city.)
You know, I'm getting sick of being stuffed into airlines like sardines. If someone would make a SERIOUS attempt to bring back passenger train service, even if it took a few days to get across country, I'd likely go THAT route rather than fly anymore!
And DON'T get me started on AMTRAK. I've ridden it. While comfortable the food and service generally sucks badly!
I'm not a Vegan, I'm an Omnivore with a preference for meat, not for some $12.00 soy burger imitation, and I am MOST certainly NOT politically correct!
Jason
I love it:
'All that foam cushion and padding probably didn't add all that much comfort. All that's been taken out,' he said. 'You haven't really lost all that much if the airline does it right.'
Pure speculation at its finest and spoken by a person who probably doesn't travel much.
So, we all get to stand up like sardines? Fit a few more in the overhead bins....like right out of M.A.D. magazine's "No Frills Airlines" series.
I still remember taking a flight home on Icelandic Air in the late 1980's....it was a tight fit...but, the food was amazing and the manner they treated us went way beyond exemplary. British Airways was the same way when I flew business class and, in one case, flying home sick (really bad sinus infection (non-infectious, btw)). They did everything they could to make my flight as comfortable as possible including giving me drinks so I would be able to sleep.
My first experience with the newer thin seats was on Continental maybe ten years ago. Within fifteen minutes of sitting down, half the muscles in my back were spasming. The only position I could stand was leaning far forward with my elbows on my knees. After that, I refused to fly Continental except for one case where the usual emergency reschedule landed me on one flying from Atlanta to Phoenix. Spent the whole trip "in the position" -- and I noticed that there were several others, incuding the woman next to me. We compared notes, same story.
And if anyone tells you that packing in more passengers side-by-side won't be noticable, you can bet that either they always fly in first class or are damned small people. As is, put three men of even average size next to each other in a row and at least one of them has to lean forward or twist sideways to make room for all of the shoulder width. Never mind sitting next to someone who weighs 400 pounds and insists on putting the seat arms up so she can overflow into your lap.
Lacking <sarcasm> tags,
Narrower but you won't notice? BS! I already have issues with lack of shoulder room between me and the guy next to me at times. I sometimes have a slight lean out into the aisle for the entire flight.
It's the Ryanair, low cost airline effect. It's all about the price, squeeze every penny, charge for baggage, (pretend to) charge for toilet usage, just get them from A to B for the minimum advertised price and them make them pay for it in discomfort, inconvenience, or extra charges later.
And there's something to be said for this model. It has brought affordable, regular, international, air travel to the masses -- for the prices mentioned above.
But, look, let me put it this way: I will pay the extra â100 or even â200 euros per flight to fly with Aer Lingus or BA, in some modicum of comfort, without the mental overhead of restrictions, and to be dropped off in an actual city instead of an airport 80km from where I want to go. There are limits to how low people will go for the right price and I think the airline industry has already hit that mark.
May the Maths Be with you!
I have gold status on two different major rewards programs which lets me board early. As soon as I get to my seat I recline it fully as a way of showing dominance over the person that sits behind me.
Totally off topic, but I hate these newsitems that have no pictures.
Just show us the damn seat, so we can actually comment on it and compare to seats we know.
No, they rather make us read a 1233-words article (guess journalists still are payed by word), where one picture would have made everything clear at once...
Every so often I fly on BA from London to Houston. I swear that the seats in economy on BA have less room than the seats on easyJet. Also after about 4 hours, the BA seats feel like slabs of concrete.
I'm not complaining though, the round trip on BA is stupidly cheap, and it includes free booze (which alleviates the concrete seat problem somewhat).
Oolite: Elite-like game. For Mac, Linux and Windows
The designers should look at the efficient transport of 17th C slave ships. You'd only lose a few on the way over and there was no queuing for toilets!
Even with new planes this issue will still exist. Boeing created a recommended seat pitch for passengers on their new Dreamliner. Of course, the US airlines are completely ignoring the recommendation and installing more seats. This, despite the fact that the Dreamliner is much more efficient. They are completely ignoring passenger comfort just to squeeze every last penny.
Whenever possible, I fly JetBlue and pay for the extra room seats. Not because I am big, but because I like to be able to move around in my seat.
I flew on United where they had newer slim seats and while they look really nice, they're not nearly as comfortable since there't not as much padding. I didn't notice a problem with legroom but I did notice that they shrunk down the trays for no apparent reason - they had room to make them wider than they did. I could barely fit my 13 inch laptop on there and had no room to sit my drink like I normally do if I shift the computer. Added padding on the bottom of the seat wouldn't have taken up any depth space. They made this way worse than they had to and if I find an airline that has more of these I'll purposely avoid them.
As a youth, I was enamored of Libertarian ideas, but my idealism has succumbed to reality because of this kind of crap. This and all the bizarre means of "revenue enhancement" pulled off by the airlines is what deregulation wrought. We need to re-enlist the government on our behalf to protect the people from continued corporate rape by instituting quality and comfort standards that meet our needs rather than the overly fattened bonus checks of airline CEOs.
What the airlines are doing is trying to make coach class so damn uncomfortable and scary that more people will pay the exorbitant first class rates, while still allowing the airlines to claim how much they have served the public interest by reducing ticket costs. Airlines want to make coach class air travel the equivalent of those over-crowded cattle-car trains you see in Mexico and India, with people riding outside on the roof.
God I hate flying.
airlines need to be required to have a demo seat for cattle-class to try out at the check-in counter. Set it up with a pokey wall to the left where the passenger division is, so you know you won't be sticking your elbow in the other fellow's lap. And have the front partitioned to show the seat in front of you reclined.
Similar on topic, I'd like to see someone do a volumetric comparison between airline seats, all now, and comparing against previous years. A nice graph to show hard numbers of how seating space has steadily declined over the years.
Bonus points for airports that set up a row of seats in the lobby, so you can compare and decide who NOT to get a ticket from.
I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
at 6'7", economy on most airlines is beyond tolerable: the seat pitch is less than the length of my knee to butt.
Last night I was on a United flight that theoretically had "economy plus" but was given the lame excuse that it's a brand new airplane and "hasn't been reconfigured yet" -- never have I heard such refined bullsh*t.
Design for Use, not Construction!
If replacing the seats with the slimline models reduces the weight of the plane by 1,200 pounds but allows for 6 more seats for 6 more passengers, and if those people average 175 pounds each and the seats average 25 pounds each, how exactly are they saving $10 million per year in fuel? What are the costs of replacing the seats? Yet another 'journalist' not worth their weight in dog shit.
I wonder if we made a law that said all airline executives had to fly economy whether they would be so keen to make these changes
Actually, Delta's CEO Richard H. Anderson is known for flying coach.... albeit in an exit row seat, which has extra leg room. Here's a thread about him on Flyertalk, a website for very frequent fliers: Richard H. Anderson rides in coach
And another thread about Southwest's CEO: [Southwest CEO Gary Kelly flys Delta...IN FIRST CLASS
In many cases where you have a flight over two hours you'll have a routing option that includes an "Economy Plus / Premium Economy" option where you can pay more for a seat with more legroom - United, Air Canada, EVA, British Airways - On and on. Even with the surcharge chances are you'll be paying less in today's dollars than your parents would have for that same route in 1975.
As a man who is 6'6" and 255, I have a place in mind where they can stick these new seats.
I'm only 6' 1" and 230, the biggest pain for me is my knees hitting the seat in front of me. Since I have only a 36" inseam, I am seeing 30" between my back and the row in front of me beautiful in theory. In reality, I know my shins are longer than 6", so I am still puzzled on what they are measuring here.
At 6'1" and 230 your Body Mass Index is over 30 - obese.
At 6'6" your BMI is just below 30, overweight but not quite obese.
The airlines suck, but they are not the only problem. You both probably thought you were just " big men" but basically normal.
FWIW, the BMI scale was invented before calculators etc., existed, so it's rather oversimplified. There is an alternative, which better represents BMI of tall and short persons. It gives lower BMI values for tall persons, but higher BMI values for short persons.
Of course, even using this BMI scale, the 6'1" person comes in at around 29 (overweight, but not quite obese). The 6'6" person comes in at just over 27 (somewhat overweight). Neither of them is in the "normal" BMI category, even on the scale which is kinder to tall persons.
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
That's the only part of this that makes any sense... My office chair has zero padding on the back (just some webbing) and that part is quite comfortable. The seat has 50mm of foam, and it isn't. Keep in mind that foam is a real problem in a fire. It either burns, gives off toxic fumes, or both. Give me a nice high-tech hammock any day.
Oh, I'm sorry sir, I thought you were referring to me, Mr. Wensleydale.
This article has a concept drawing of the seats involved
Esli epei etot cumprenan, shris soa Sfaha.
I'm 5'8" and average weight but have broad shoulders. Sitting next to anyone other than my wife makes it uncomfortable as our shoulders are always rubbing.
I read an article years ago talking about seat design, they used hips as the defining measurement for seat width, not shoulders.
"Action without philosophy is a lethal weapon; philosophy without action is worthless."
I fit in a BarcaLounger from shoulder to shoulder. I am to wide at the shoulder for an airplane seat. Lost nothing? I think NOT!
when I get to stand, harnessed to a cheap aluminium pole for 6 hours?
Maybe they could just suspend me from the roof like a close hanger.
A few years back my wife got us a 2-for-1 compartment deal on Amtrak from NYC Penn Station to New Orleans. We didn't realize that made us effectively first-class passengers until we showed up at Penn Station to check in and they ushered us into the first class lounge to wait. Extremely plush furniture, complimentary drinks, free newspapers, TVs, wifi, etc. Porters took our bags to the compartment for us, and we had a steward serve us throughout the trip. Free sodas, first call to dinner (which was included), power and TVs/DVD players in our compartment, and a bathroom in our compartment. It was wonderful. We left New York in the evening and arrived in New Orleans in city center the next day. Took the streetcar to our hotel. No taxi, no airport shuttle, no AirTrain BS. Fantastic.
I will take that luxury over the misery of flying any day. Any day. Unless they bring back zeppelins and replicate the civilized experience of the train.
I can dream.
Do what you can, with what you have, where you are.
It might be possible to design a better seat but the airlines are using "better" to mean cheaper and a way to stuff more people on the plane.
I had the unfortunate experience of flying from Denver to Reno two days ago on United on an Airbus A320 with their new seats.
Worst airline seat ever.
They don't have any back support. They force you into an uncomfortable position and there is not escape.
The legroom is much smaller. I am not tall (5' 10") and never have a problem with legroom but these seats were jammed so close together that my knees were constantly banging the seat ahead of me (which was not reclined).
This was only a 1.5 hour flight but it was 90 minutes of pain.
Terrible seats.
I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
Nothing has changed over the years at all. You can get all the old experience back:
1. Large seats with lots of leg room like in the 60s.
2. Great service from friendly staff like in the 60s.
3. Drinks served in actual glasses on actual plates like in the 60s.
4. No stupid restrictions on luggage just like in the 60s.
5. A ticket price that will bankrupt a middle income family... just like in the 60s.
Just fly first class if you want the old experience (and the old price) back. Me I'm happy for every change they've introduced, even the one where you pay extra for luggage. It now means I can fly interstate for less than the cost of a premium case of beer. As for being uncomfortable for 2 hours? You should try commuting on a peak hour train.
...and it includes free booze (which alleviates the concrete seat problem somewhat).
Ok, I'm willing to trade an inch of room for free booze.
Place nail here >+
I *WILL* notice, especially when the person in front of me reclines back at full speed.
I'm more upset with things like the 777 airlines' change from 9 to 10 abreast. I'm short (only 4' 18"), so legroom isn't a problem for me. But I've got wide shoulders and my arms end up hanging into the aisle and over the armrest into the next person's seat. My only solution is to secure an aisle seat and lean out, pissing off the cabin crew and passengers trying to squeeze by.
One of the fixes being made to the new seats is actually a good idea. Reclining the new seats will be done by sliding your butt forward, not tipping the seat back into the next person's space. So overlength passengers will have to make a choice between preserving legroom or sitting upright.
Have gnu, will travel.
These are not the comfortable seats you are looking for.
15+ hour flights to get to a destination is now a freaking nightmare. No wonder first class on those flights cost 5 figures.
------ Curiosity killed the cat. {satisfaction brought it back | it didn't die ignorant | lack of it is killing mankind
www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8H39sPu_wA
One of the best is https://www.routehappy.com/ By default it sorts by a score which is a combination of comfort, travel time, airline ratings, and price.
Save the bandwidth. Don't use sigs!
I've sat in just about every possible configuration of plane and seat, including these new "ultra-light" seats (which are on a number of United's planes). The seats are slimmer, but the problem is that they are also stiffer, and the material is both harder and less supportive than the standard seat.
I'm usually able to deal with just about any seating situation, but I found myself getting uncomfortable after 30-45 mins in the new seats, particularly my back. I actually had to consistently stretch and turn to mitigate the ache that started to form. The major reason is, I think, the fact that there is less support for your legs in front, leading to a "sliding forward off the seat" kind of situation where you have to put more effort into keeping yourself seated.
Anyway, seats vary, and old seats suck as much as anything else. However, selling the new seats as "better" or "more comfortable" is a load of c$#% that the airline industry no doubt has teams of advertisers selling through stories like this one.
RT
locopuyo: The distance between seats isn't changing
summary at top: The seats Southwest has put on nearly its entire fleet are 31 inches apart, about an inch less than before
Actually, Delta's CEO Richard H. Anderson is known for flying coach.... albeit in an exit row seat
Is that the area of a plane you are most likely to survive / escape a crash?
On a flight I had this year out of Detroit on AA, I had one unruly guy behind me start to get into a fight with the guy next to him over elbow room. This is a great idea for the airlines to now squeeze more people in to the seats because now we'll have live fights on the plane that everybody can watch. Of course you can always have the occasional nutjob who can't put up with it and then they go crazy or on a tirade.
Harrison's Postulate - "For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism"
If you want Economy seating from the 90s, luggage fees from the 90s and Economy seat pitch from the 90s.... you can pay 90s prices and fly Economy Plus.
People need to remember that Economy isn't Economy anymore, it's like sub-economy. And it's great. If you want the very bare bones cheapest ticket--fly economy. If you want to spend what we used to spend... fly Economy Plus (or even business).
I always thought all that padding and extra material was to help absorb flatulence.
grill class?
I can't wait 'til you can pay to be put into suspended animation, it's the only way airline travel will ever again be civilized for anyone who can't afford to pay triple for 1st class or who doesn't fly over 250,000 miles per year. Even the pilots are cramped now. You can't get decent service from the stewardi without getting out of the cockpit.
Reminds me of accounts of the colonial slave trade. Seriously, why don't they just design standing seats already and make everyone stand up for 8 solid hours? They already prove that they care nothing about human comfort! Could probably squeeze people into containers resembling coffins while they're at it like the Japanese hotels...
I'm 6'7'' so I never buy a ticket unless I can get an emergency aisle seat ( which have a lot more leg room ) or an affordable business class seat.
I know people a lot shorter but who do the same. So the admittedly small market is out there.
Now the average passenger will be crushed even more by the people so fat they shouldn't be allowed on the plane in the first place.
Surely with all the millions of dollars of profits the airlines get, they could invest in some R&D to design truly better seats for everyone.
I like the idea someone else mentioned. Sliding seats. Although, I think I'd rather do sliding rows. But that still presents a problem. The time it would take to adjust the seats, etc. It'd an idea that should be investigated thoroughly though.
I'd like to see a law mandating that airlines provide proper seating based on body size without extra charges. We can assume two dimensions matter: width and height.
Height: Very tall, tall, normal, petite/child.
Width: Wide, normal, thin.
Mandate by law that passengers meating certain combinations of the above 12 must be afforded appropriate seating, even if it means offering a free upgrade to first class (assuming first class has the appropriate seating dimensions).
The appropriate seating would be based on usable seat width and leg room (as measured by the front of your seat to the back of the seat in front of you--at knee level).
I think they've used all science and stuff to invent flame resistant foams these days.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Why don't they have a hole in floor beneath the seat in front of you?.. That way they could actually squeeze the seats together even more without actually loosing much comfort... Would be great for us taller people also.....
With ALL the biggest FITNESS companies located in the US why is there so many obese Americans
American airline companies already have the shortest pitch in the world. They must use a model human who is an above the knee double amputee. This is almost endurable for short flights, but if you have to spend more than six hours with your knees crushed against the seat in front it is intolerable. Sleep is impossible. Australians, accustomed to 12 hour flights to Europe or USA, know this and avoid these airlines whenever they can. The idea of reducing this miserly pitch by an inch is plainly absurd. These greedy bastards deserve to lose market share.
Heavy is the head that wears the tinfoil hat.
Can someone explain to me why they don't just build the airplanes of the correct size to start with?
Or is the weight of the passengers + luggage so negotiable that you want the planes as small as possible?
s/spinal injury/spinal defect/
Although I suppose it's not impossible for the text as written to be accurate to some situation, it's not what I meant.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"