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US Spying Costs Boeing Military Jet Deal With Brazil
An anonymous reader writes with this excerpt from a Reuters report shedding light on one consequence of increasing knowledge of the extent of U.S. government spying: "Brazil awarded a $4.5 billion contract to Saab AB on Wednesday to replace its aging fleet of fighter jets, a surprise coup for the Swedish company after news of U.S. spying on Brazilians helped derail Boeing's chances for the deal. ... The timing of the announcement, after more than a decade of off-and-on negotiations, appeared to catch the companies involved by surprise. Even Juniti Saito, Brazil's top air force commander, said on Wednesday that he only heard of the decision a day earlier in a meeting with President Dilma Rousseff. Until earlier this year, Boeing's F/A-18 Super Hornet had been considered the front runner. But revelations of spying by the U.S. National Security Agency in Brazil, including personal communication by Rousseff, led Brazil to believe it could not trust a U.S. company."
Seems fair. The US government does the same to Chinese companies for the same reason.
You made the correct choice, Brazil! For more than one reason.
It's about time something like that happened. Now if only all European countries showed the same level of responsibility, maybe the USA would learn to treat their "friends" better.
...there are a few other deals hanging, too...
This is one of the costs of unintended consequences. I expect some to blame Snowden for this loss of business because blaming the perpetrator isn't as popular as blaming the messenger.
Plus, if I were them, I'd be worried that the USA would insert a backdoor in the avionics that allows the plane to be remote controlled by the USA.
Maybe the Saab is a better deal anyway, their latest plane is a newer design, and more agile.
Let them suffer a bit. In a world where individuals can be fired from their jobs with no recourse at all, it's only fair that a corporation (that's also a "person", right?) be treated the same. Of course, Boeing will find a way to manipulate the enormous government bureaucracy to make more money anyways... but that's another story.
I don't get it, FRA works for NSA so what's the difference?
...didn't think about the consequences of their actions. All conspiracies are revealed because someone always talks. Ethics aside, the NSA should have been just as concerned about how the world would react. There will be much more blowback from the NSA's actions. We told the entire world that cyberwarfare is a go. Brazil can't do that much, so this is how they react. But we should be more concerned about technologically capable nations doing what we did to them to us. The irony is that they may have created the very situation they were trying to avoid with regards to cyberwarfare. Why do we keep doing this?
It's a chess game, and General Alexander is a poor chess player.
Brazil has no real threats (as a Greek i wish we had the same situation as Brazil has), so the 36 (Swedish) Gripen (plus 50 -more or less- old but modernized American F5 that will use until 2040) are more than enough - plus, the Gripen is much cheaper to obtain and has half the operation cost per hour of the F18... plus, SAAB would transfer technology to the Brazilian Embraer.
And from what i know (few years now), it was the Gripen that was "considered the front runner" (not the F18) - mostly because that technology transfer.
This "US spying" thing has nothing to do with the decision - it's not even used as an excuse from the Brazilian government.
Sup, cold fjord. Having to resort to sockpuppets these days?
Just for info : they have decided for the better plane.
The JAS SuperGrippen (Grippen NG) has a much larger ferry and combat range (twice as much as the F/A18), is a lot faster (Mach 2.2, even faster than the F35), more agile AND cheaper both in initial costs and per flight hour. It's comparable to the Eurofighter. Except that the JAS 39 NG has the much better radar.
It has a bit lower weapon payload, though (5.3 metric ton (JAS39) vs 6 metric ton (F/A18)). But for the cost of one american plane, you can buy two JAS39 and thus have air superiority.
to cause any change.. and to compensate and appease the company, the government will just award them an even larger amount of contracts for grossly overpriced goods and equipment.
NSA has been good to US companies in the past, sometimes it fails. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON#Examples_of_industrial_espionage
The USA will eventually find itself alone, and without allies. And it's not just the spying, it's the drone attacks on soil with countries we are not at war with. Recently we blew up a wedding party in Yemen, killing over 13 which I'm sure included women and children. But oh no, we're not evil. We're the good guys. Uh huh.
Little by little, we are making enemies of the world, and until we change our ways, less and les of the world is going to want to do business with us because we have shown we're not trustworthy.
And to the poster who blames a 4.5 billion dollar loss on the economy to Ed Snowden, screw you. All Snowden did was CONFIRM what everyone knew already, but just couldn't prove. He will be shown to be a hero, this decade's Cindy Sheehan.
We are in the wrong, but people who wrap themselves in the flag are unwilling to admit it. And until we learn to act a little more humble, we're going to see more of this. We're making the typical over-exaggerated gestures of a failed empire. And as things get worse here, we're trying to take the rest of the world down with us.
If telephones are outlawed, then only outlaws will have telephones.
I remember my first comment about this sort of thing on here so long ago. I said it would affect US business and many people said it was impossible that US industries and technologies were too entrenched. Amazing. I almost wish I was wrong. But we can add one more large business to the list of businesses lobbying to stop the NSA. I hope they act quickly enough.
This is not just a response to the NSA leaks. Everyone spies, we all know that.
The problem is American exceptionalism. No, not because we think that (every nation does), but because we can't shut up about it. The image we project is of spoiled kids, arrogant and rotten to the core. We shove our defensiveness in everyone's faces, and that makes America a very bad salesperson. We are the tight-ass at Macy's who thinks his feces doesn't stink, and won't even pay you any attention because you have the wrong shoes. No on wants to deal with that.
This isn't about who has the best warplanes. This is diplomacy. This is business. This is about saving face and national egos. It's about time we learned a little finesse in this area. It's something the Chinese do exceptionally well.
The larger impact of all of this NSA spying is going to be pushing countries like Colombia and Brazil over the edge, where they will distance themselves from the US and align instead with Bolivarian Socialist states in SA.
Brazil has already been moving that way for some time, but this may be the final nail in the coffin for any hope of avoiding becoming another despotic socialist state.
Sounds like a major lawsuit is brewing. Hopefully.
I never gave any thoughts to Brazil. It was some far away country in South America with probably a bunch of poor people and a bad government as we generally think all 3rd world countries have. But they're gaining my respect the more I hear about them in the news.
"The NSA problem ruined it for the Americans," a Brazilian government source said on condition of anonymity.
A U.S. source close to the negotiations said that whatever intelligence the spying had delivered for the American government was unlikely to outweigh the commercial cost of the revelations.
"Was that worth 4 billion dollars?" the source asked.
We play the game with the bravery of being out of range
Just for info : they have decided for the better plane.
You forget the Rafale which is by far superior to the Gripen.
See Switzerland: they also have chosen the Gripen for political and price reason, even if it doesn't meet the military requirements!
End of page 2:
The Gripen has been rated unsatisfactory in the accomplishment for Air-to-Air and Strike missions.
The Gripen obtained the 3rd rank in the evaluation of the effectiveness.
Based on flight test results, the Rafale is the candidate which fulfil all Swiss Air Force requirements and ended with the best score recommended as new fighter for the Swiss Air Force.
Shut up, bitch.
Actually, Third World is Cold War foreign policy term for countries which were neither part of "The West" (which included neutral democracies in Europe such as Sweden, Finland, Switzerland and Austria), nor part of "behind Iron Curtain countries" ... basically it means "not one of us, not one of them, but a third side, a Third World".
More then coincidentally, the Third World also comprised mostly of impoverished freshly liberated former colonies.
I guarantee you that our "friends" spy on us, especially for economic information. The problem I have with the NSA is that they spy on American citizens. It is THEIR JOB to spy on foreign citizens and governments.
Except for ending slavery, the Nazis, communism, & securing American independence, war has never solved anything.
The fact that the military didn't even know about this snap-decision (after TEN YEARS of "on again, off again" negotiations) shows that Dilma Rousseff is simply stomping her little feet angrily at the US. The US/Brazil relationship has always been touchy - Brazil is hypersensitive, and the US *was* overbearing and arrogant.
Ms Rousseff is either acting or stupid. Let's be absolutely candid: Brazil is NOT a first-world country. I would imagine that *any* first-world security agency that has wanted to spy on Brazil HAS been spying on Brazil. Frankly, the only people not spying on Brazil would be anyone who doesn't give a shit about Brazil, and for Ms Rousseff (or anyone with a brain) to not recognize that is simply ignorant or in denial.
She has public constituencies to salve, and is merely making political capital out of the always-useful-bogeyman, the US. That they decided on SAAB in such a snap decision suggests to me, in fact, that they'd qualified either vendor to their own standards, and were just waiting for the bribes/'compensations' to rise to the level that finally justified selecting one vendor or the other.
-Styopa
I'm actually surprised that Brazil didn't pick Embraer to roll their own jet fighter more tailored to their own threats. Brazil has the money, the technical know-how, the and the educated workforce to pull it off. Although I suppose a Saab today is better than a less-capable Embraer fighter ten years from now.
SAAB has made many concessions over the transfer of technology. I wonder how it will work out. Plus they propose to "make" them in Brazil. I wonder how much it will cost them since embraer has to outsource the assembly of many of their planes in Europe to be cost efficient.
The Gripen has many parts which are originated from the USA. The volvo engine used by current Gripens is a modified general electrics one. No small part of their electronics is American too. Besides, the Gripen NG now exists only on paper. It has short range and carry little ordinance. Best contender wasn't the F18 but the Dassault Rafale. Except in the US press of course. The French were ready to make a technology tranfer the americans would have never accepted, with good reasons. The Brazilians and the French already cooperate closely on Brazil's future nuclear submarines and that was supposed to seal a military alliance between the two countries. Sarkozy had even agreed to buy some Brazilian tranports France doesn't need to sweeten the deal.
And everyone who is even slightly interested in defense matters know the everyone which has the means spy on everyone. The Brazilian military knew this like the others Snowden or no Snowden.
The ones who rage and are really surprised now are the French, no the US.
They just can't afford the best plane, they bought the cheap one, and cheaper to operate.
The Swiss Army also has chosen the Gripen, despite its worst rank among the three candidates!
See this confidential flight test report about Rafale, Eurofighter and Gripen evaluation:
http://files.newsnetz.ch/upload//1/2/12332.pdf
OVERALL CONCLUSION
Among the three NFA candidates,Rafale was the aircraft with the best effectiveness and suitability for the accomplishment of a typical Air Policing mission.
It also demonstrated better capabilities than the F/A-18C/D equiped with OFP-19C(S) and in addition in the accomplishment of Air Policing tasks it made the best impression on the pilots.
For Air Policing missions, the Gripen was the only candidate which did not achieve the threshold of "meets minimum expected capabilities".
Americans have been posting so much personal information online, do you think they really care what the NSA does? The public outrage about NSA spying has been only minor. Mark Zuckerberg doesn't value privacy at all, and he still gets many signups. Privacy is dead, get used to it.
Ah yes, that report, written by Dassault themselves, even in the face of Gripen curbstomping Rafale in red flag excercises, and Gripen proving that it was better at strike missions in Libya.
Basically, Dassault has such a foothold in the Swiss Air Force that they can write the requirements and testing specs to favour Dassault. It's like trying to sell Gripen or Typhoon to the US or Russian Air Forces.....
In the Case of the Swiss, they had indeed noted the Rafale and the Eurofighter favourably, stating the Gripen was not only weaker but also below their minimal requirements. It has flunked the exams.
Still, they chose the Gripen. Why ? Simple, Eurofigher is partially German, Rafale is French and both Germany and France have heavily pressured the Swiss to reform their beloved banking system so EU citizen can't elude their taxes with a Swiss account.
The Gripen choice was the retaliation.
Yes, there are two groups of people! But they are not as you assume.
There is the group that believes there are "two groups of people", and the other group that believes "there are not"!
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
They always have friends. And an armada of satellite wannabe bullies.
Little by little, we are making enemies of the world, and until we change our ways, less and les of the world is going to want to do business with us
you'll always have israel or saudi arabia ... oh wait.
And as things get worse here, we're trying to take the rest of the world down with us.
to be fair most of the rest of the world is trying hard too. i guess we need some more snowdens of different nationalities just to get an approximate picture.
it's just business. the rest of the world has been happy to indulge and even collaborate in those wrong ways, many times. they just get a bit picky when it comes to snooping into their private affairs, even more let it be publicly known. but in the end it's the same gang al over the world and there's the honor among thieves. we need to expose them all, i see no other way.
US Spying Costs Boeing a Brazilian Dollars
Think about this - will the US build in a kill switch into those planes? They can control drones on the other side of the world, why not a fighter plane? Can we trust that those planes don't communicate with a US base and let them know where it is, what's being said and done inside?
Are you suggesting the Swiss couldn't afford whatever plane they wanted? Of all the reasons they could have had to go with the Gripen, good or bad, do you really think cost was the deciding factor?
[...], and Gripen proving that it was better at strike missions in Libya.
Err... no.
In Libya the Gripen has only been used for recognition, not for strike.
Why ? Political choice, so they do not risk to kill civilians, and here Carl Bildt said the Gripen was not suitable for strike (which is BS, but an excuse for not to strike).
About Dassault writing the report, I'm interested in anything backing this idea (fact,quotes,...). To me it doesn't look like so.
The best for what against what?
Both Brazil and Switzerland lack credible menaces. For us (I am Brazilian but have an attachment to Switzerland, my son having been born there), the Gripen is more than enough, and enables us to participate in the project, which is more useful than simply buying the latest toy.
BTW, why is a Swiss report written in English? I would expect German.
Leandro Guimarães Faria Corcete DUTRA
DA, DBA, SysAdmin, Data Modeller
GNU Project, Debian GNU/Lin
... it was the part where they got caught.
Are you suggesting the Swiss couldn't afford whatever plane they wanted?
No, for Swiss it was political reasons, as explained above by other ./ user. But price isn't completly ignored, even for Swiss, they do have a budget, it isn't "no limit".
For Brasil it was 1st price and 2nd political, according to some specialists I trust.
This might change some of Boeing's thinking with regard to relocating their commercial operations. Back when I worked there (before McDonald Douglas took over), Boeing Commercial Aircraft was largely a stand alone enterprise. In fact, there was some talk about spinning off the military and aerospace divisions. That changed after the merger and some of the recent reorganizations have combined commercial and military aircraft engineering groups.
But if the rest of the world perceives Boeing as being a tool of the USA's political/military complex, they might want to reconsider tainting their successful commercial jet business with that reputation. The F/A-18 deal is lost. But the company will really be up a creek if they start losing commercial sales as well.
Have gnu, will travel.
My comment was eaten by a black hole it seems...
Ths Swiss did a political choice. The Rafale and the Typhoon not only bested the Gripen but were also the only ones who passe the miltary criteria. The Gripen is considered insufficient by Armasuisse.
But The Typhoon is part German and the Rafale is French and bot Germany and France have pressured the Swiss to reform their beloved banking system.
This was the retaliation
Circa 2010 when they were treating Obama like the muthafuckin pope.
They had more Obama swag in Antigua than you'd ever see in the US, plus they renamed a whole fricking mountain after him. Wonder how they're feeling about that decision now (Their whole WTO censure thing has been wrapped up during the Obama administration.)
In the 1980s the Brazilian government wanted to do just that, after the AMX project, where we were junior partners to the Italians. But the 1980s debt crush, followed by the 1990s bubble burst and tiger economies’ crises, and then populist governments during the 1980s and 2000s, totally killed any viability to a Brazilian supersonic.
Not only that, the market is already too cramped. It makes much more sense to just become a junior partner with Saab (now; it could have been someone else, even if it is hard to see whomever) in the hopes of becoming an equal partner in the future.
Not that I believe in any such future. We simply do not have neither the long term vision, nor the first rate education, nor the need nor the demographical viability.
Leandro Guimarães Faria Corcete DUTRA
DA, DBA, SysAdmin, Data Modeller
GNU Project, Debian GNU/Lin
The FAB (Brazilian air force) always wanted the Gripen. It was not a snap decision; it was the government finally realising it is better to be a junior partner than a minor customer.
Leandro Guimarães Faria Corcete DUTRA
DA, DBA, SysAdmin, Data Modeller
GNU Project, Debian GNU/Lin
The official mission was recon, but their RoE didn't preclude strikes, if there was a pressing need.
2 times, 39's simultaneously engaged and destroyed multiple ground targets, and at least 3 other times they provided the target data to Rafale's(Too bad 39's have to run with reduced datalink capacity to interface with NATO planes, including the Rafale)
As for Dassault involvement, they are issuing bearer bonds to Swiss politicians, Dassault "consultants" are working as personal advisors to at least 3 defense ministry officials, and are also suspects in the brewing indian bribery scandal regarding the Rafale procurement. Keep in mind, SAAB and the Swedish government have sidestepped BAE for the Swiss procurement, because BAE is too corrupt, and Dassault has an operational record just as dirty as that of BAE, Boeing and Lockheed-Martin, with the belgian scandal being just one of them.
When general Gygax made a revised statement of operational capacity after 2010, when Gripen NG showed off the planned abilities, there was an immediate lobbying blitz and further bearer bonds thrown in the direction of parliament and defense ministry.
In fact, Dassault are still pushing the 2006-2008 evaluations to the swiss parliament, completely ignoring the post-2010 evaluations. They even willfully broke the rules of the tender by attempting to renegotiate after the bidding timeframe was closed.
Moreover, this is not merely the purchase of 36 planes (28 made for a single pilot; 8 with space for a co-pilot). Long-distance missiles, bombs and towable targets for training are all part of a larger package of logistics and training materials. http://www1.folha.uol.com.br/internacional/en/brazil/2013/12/1387576-after-more-than-10-years-dilma-chooses-swedish-jets-for-fab.shtml
If so, he could sue for damages?
Perl Harbor is what happens when people ignore the reports of incoming activity - the attack was well detected by radar at least 1-2 hours before the attack occurred. The watch officer ignored it attributing it to another flight coming in from the east. How he ignored a northern approach didn't make sense.
those specifications. The US double highway (interstate) was supposed to allow for two rows of tank traffic, with straight sections capable of use as emergency landing fields.
It should be part of the Eisenhower justifications for the spending.
As a revenge, the US will win the Soccer World Cup 2014...oh..wait...they didn't even qualify... mmm... let's attack them for communists!!..mm..oh..that's too old...maybe for hidding weapons of mass destruction...oh..maybe something more modern..... terrorists!!!
But the US people will pay again for the arrogance of the government.
I, like the vast majority of the US, am neither a shareholder nor employee of Boeing. Explain to me how this costs me a lot of money.
You would be better serve by taking a few classes in Economics than by reading some post on the internet. But to give you an e-lecture is just too good to pass.
See, imagine if something were to happen to Silicon Valley, and half the engineers employed there become unemployed. Google collapses and shit. Don't you think such an event would affect the economy? Or do you live in an isolated compound somewhere in Montana, living off the earth and shit?
I mean, think what happened when IBM left South Florida. The tech region never recovered because there were a whole bunch of ancillary businesses dependent on IBM. And all the jobs in the service industry that depended on the engineers spending money.
So we have one of the largest engineering firms in the world losing a 4 billion contract. Are you that much of an ignorant idiot to think that won't have a negative effect on the American economy?
But it does have about 1 billion people that would contribute money...
To outsource the fighting to the South Koreans... Who subcontract it to the Israelis...
And get the job done. :)
Energy.
That, here in the USA, is cheap and plentiful
At the briefing in which they announced their decision, government officials said Brazilian aircraft maker Embraer SA would be Saab's principal partner. The transfer of technology is crucial to help Brazil develop future generations of fighter aircraft. "There isn't necessarily a need to produce all the parts in Brazil," Amorim, the defense minister said. "What's important is that specific aviation technology is transferred to Brazil so we can develop it."
Brazil has a longstanding policy of spending to develop their own technology infrastructure.. The NSA angle makes for good headlines, but I have to believe the partnership/technology transfer has more to do with it.
Note that the Swiss are far up in the French pocket, and anything else than a French product now that it is readily available is somewhat of a sensation. There have been quite probable accusations on the Swiss evaluation process of the technical merits, tailoring them for the "results" wanted (i.e. which company should come out ahead). Their test results are quite foreign from other tests around the world of the planes, including actual combat data from Libya.
If you already know what answer you want, making tests to suit them is a small thing. Add in massive political pressure from all angles. In practice the Swiss are probably just as well of with Gripen as with Rafale on all accounts. The actual fact that Switzerland after all is most likely going to buy Gripen after all means that they don't really put much value in their tests, and that the tests could very well have been seen as "bargaining material" to a large extent. "Oh, yeah, we could buy your planes, but you know, we are not extremely interested, but perhaps if you sweetened the deal..?" and so on.
So, the Swiss report is quite extreme outlier among other results. Gripen is an massively capable plane, and in all honesty not easy to argue against when you account the price point. Political pressure is another bag; look at Norway's spectacularly horrible deal (estimated versus actual costs are completely bonkers) with the F-35s (google "norway gripen" for juicy details). It has been made quite certain since that the evaluation process was pure show, since politics had already decided on buying American.
It is an impressive feat of such a small country as Sweden (less than 10 M inhabitants) to deliver a plane in absolute competition with France, USA, Russia, etc.
The unchecked spying without oversight is now leading to huge damage to the US economy. It's no wonder that IT companies like Microsoft, Google, and Apple etc.. want reform in the NSA because they stand to lose a huge amount of worldwide business after the Snowden revelation fallout. Countries don't trust the US or US based companies now and they will look elsewhere for their IT and hardware needs as evidenced by the loss of the 4.5 billion contract mentioned in this article. I'm from Canada and IT companies I work with are now trying to minimize their exposure to US software and hardware and I'm sure it's the same in other countries.
From defencetalk.com (http://www.defencetalk.com/mission-completed-swedish-gripen-back-from-libya-37964/)
Gripen in Libya: "650 combat missions, almost 2,000 flight hours and more than 150,000 reconnaissance photos"
So, it does have some real-life experience too
The US is still the best and most powerful country in the world and will continue to kick-ass for a very long time. So what if some third world country like Brazil doesn't buy a few airplanes. There are still business opportunities both here and in other countries. In the grand scheme of things Brazil can go jerk off in some corner with all the other third world monkeys
Most of the article reads normally, but one paragraph sort of stands out:
"Brazil coexists peacefully with all of its South American neighbors and has no enemies elsewhere. The country, however, is eager to fortify its military as it considers the long-term defense of its vast borders and abundant natural resources, including the Amazon rainforest and offshore oil discoveries."
It sounds like it was written by some PR person.
He was talking about Finland; your experience does not apply. I don't think the US was ever worried about getting carpet bombed since the Soviets would be throwing nukes on them. The nordic countries, on the other hand, were something that both sides would want to keep relatively intact even if they fought over it.
Modern fighters rely on a STEADY flow of sophisticated parts from the manufacturer and subcontractors. Many of those parts must be returned to their manufacturer for repair/overhaul/upgrades which means you must buy "some" extras if you want to fly sorties.
Many parts are so expensive you can't have a local Supply operation with more than a few. Even the US Air Force must monitor Supply stocks globally and have parts shipped from base to base or deployed location to maintain fleet readiness. This vital juggling act relies on Fedex, DHL and other carriers as well as USAF assets. Repair and overhaul of jet engines is especially critical. If you have a problem component, say in the hot section, which fails periodic inspections you need to pull and stuff engines quickly to maintain operations.
If you don't get full tech transfer with local manufacturing you can end up with a bunch of expensive "ramp decorations" like Venezuelas F16 fleet.
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
Sounds like Brazil is a little childish.
There's only one circumstance in which I can see myself drinking US coffee, and that's if the only other beverage available was US tea.
I'd rather settle differences with a keyboard than with bombs.
Cry me a river.
They feared that it could be used to suppress protest or support unpopular rule.
What will happen with the Swedish Gripen planes is that they probably will upgrade the existing aircrafts to the E version, not necessarily purchase brand new.
If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
Brazil is one of the most corrupt countries in the world - this is likely just a plausible excuse for the likelihoood that someone else paid the right people the right brown envelopes....
Scale. Pervasiveness.
Funny how you survillance state apologists are always talking "gosh, everyone does this" but never talk about how New Zealand has tapped Obama's personal cell phone, or how Romania is monitoring every phone call and email sent by every American citizen. You don't because you can't.
Arguing that because Bumfuckistan has an intelligence agency, budget $3 million USD, so all things are equal is as asinine as saying that Canada has an army and a navy so it's equal with the United States. Nevermind the fact that the U.S. spends more than the rest of the world combined.