Slashdot Mirror


Mathematical Proof That the Cosmos Could Have Formed Spontaneously From Nothing

KentuckyFC writes: "One of the great theories of modern cosmology is that the universe began in a Big Bang. It's backed up by numerous lines of evidence, such as the cosmic microwave background and so on. But what caused the Big Bang, itself? For many years, cosmologists have fallen back on the idea that the universe formed spontaneously; that the Big Bang was result of quantum fluctuations in which the universe came into existence from nothing. But is this compatible with what we know about the Big Bang itself and the theories that describe it? Now cosmologists have come up with the first rigorous proof that the Big Bang could indeed have occurred spontaneously and produced the universe we see today. The proof is developed within a mathematical framework known as the Wheeler-DeWitt equation. Heisenberg's uncertainty principle allows a small region of empty space to come into existence probabilistically due to quantum fluctuations. Most of the time, such a bubble will collapse and disappear. The question these scientists address is whether a bubble could also expand exponentially to allow a universe to form in an irreversible way. Their proof (PDF) shows that this is indeed possible. There is an interesting corollary: the role of the cosmological constant is played by a property known as the quantum potential. This is a property introduced in the 20th century by the physicist David Bohm, which has the effect of making quantum mechanics deterministic while reproducing all of its predictions. It's an idea that has never caught on. Perhaps that will change now."

403 of 612 comments (clear)

  1. If you make this a proof of God... by nitehawk214 · · Score: 5, Funny

    ... I will punch you in the face.

    --
    I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
    1. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      We are God: "The Last Question" by Isaac Asimov.

    2. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by marcello_dl · · Score: 3, Interesting

      If you make implementation details about the initial condition of an universe proof that such an universe has no superior level, you are already so ridiculous that punching people in the face is probably the best you can do.

      --
      ---- MISSING MISCELLANEOUS DATA SEGMENT --- [sigdash] trolololol
    3. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Surely it is the opposite. Something, at some point, had to come into being spontaneously from nothing. It makes little difference whether it was the universe or God, it makes me dizzy and my head hurt either way.

    4. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by craigminah · · Score: 1

      Nobody ever claimed God wrote the Bible, the Bible is "God-inspired". If you're going to argue against the Bible you should at least know the basics...

    5. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by jellomizer · · Score: 1, Interesting

      So we see evidence of a seeming Miraculous event in the universe. One that seems to defy logic. And you use it as a time to get angry at people who believe in God.

      Is your atheism so week, that you fall back on violence if confronted with evidence that seems to force you to realign your belief structure.
      So tell me again how atheist are better than religious people?
      Or is it that you are just as human as the rest of us, and will strongly hold onto our belief structure and get very angry when something dissuades it.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    6. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Is your atheism so week, that you fall back on violence if confronted with evidence that seems to force you to realign your belief structure.

      What evidence?

      So tell me again how atheist are better than religious people?

      You seem to be taking your dislike for the one you replied to and generalizing based on that. Nice job.

    7. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by marcello_dl · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Let's simplify.

      Conway's game of life creatures became sentient.
      They discovered they are made of cells.
      They said "Look, THE INFINITESIMAL CELL is always created from NOTHING. If things happens FROM NOTHING, there is NO NEED FOR A CREATOR, so THERE IS NO CREATOR, and besides NOBODY ever witnessed something different THAN THE DETERMINISTIC APPLICATION OF RULES. How smart are we?"

      So the guy at the PC said to himself "Thank you for nothing, guys" and went making himself coffee.

      --
      ---- MISSING MISCELLANEOUS DATA SEGMENT --- [sigdash] trolololol
    8. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by operagost · · Score: 1

      ... I will punch you in the face.

      Why?

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    9. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by mark-t · · Score: 1

      Something at some point only had to come into being spontaneously from nothing if there as ever a point where it did not exist.

      We know that the universe itself is a finite age, and it did not always exist.... we can only make a similar claim about God by extrapolating from what we know about the universe, but extrapolating from a data size of one is mathematically invalid and can easily produce flawed conclusions.

    10. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by Your.Master · · Score: 3, Informative

      Many, many, MANY people have claimed that God wrote the Bible.

    11. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by TheKeyboardSlayer · · Score: 2

      Because I am stick of hearing the "how can something come from nothing" argument from creationists. Whether or not something could come from nothing has nothing to do if there is a god or not and proving it can does not prove there is a god. Any rational person can see this, but I would never accuse a creationist of being rational.

      Sounds like you need some cheese....

      --
      Insert_Ending_Here
    12. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by dimeglio · · Score: 3, Funny

      If you make this a proof of God... I will punch you in the face

      Of course not. If He wanted you to believe, God would have showed you his birth certificate.

      --
      Views expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the author.
    13. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by jythie · · Score: 2

      "This book was dictated but not read"

    14. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by blahplusplus · · Score: 1

      "And you use it as a time to get angry at people who believe in God."

      When people believe in gods that can't invent wireless camera phones and used the most inefficient method to communicate "his" message regardless of religion (christianity, islam, etc). People have every right to look down at believers in old gods with their ancient texts (which are full of errors).

      If gods of our ancestors were so all powerful, why do they seem to have a messaging problem? Note that there are over roughly 30,000 different sects of Christianity alone. If a divine being fails so badly at communication, it's 100% certain that the person claiming that failure as evidence of divinity is gullible and lying to themselves.

      http://religioustolerance.org/...

    15. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by Hentai · · Score: 3, Interesting

      So the guy at the PC said to himself "Thank you for nothing, guys" and went making himself coffee.

      Well, what else were they supposed to do? They're DETERMINISTIC. Their entire existence is based on THE DETERMINISTIC APPLICATION OF RULES, right?

      So if the guy at the PC is butthurt, maybe he should have picked different rules or different initial conditions, right? Because once you hit 'run' you can't really blame the process for giving you its output.

      --
      -Hentai [in vita non pacem est]
    16. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by rasmusbr · · Score: 1

      Let's simplify.

      Conway's game of life creatures became sentient.
      They discovered they are made of cells.
      They said "Look, THE INFINITESIMAL CELL is always created from NOTHING. If things happens FROM NOTHING, there is NO NEED FOR A CREATOR, so THERE IS NO CREATOR, and besides NOBODY ever witnessed something different THAN THE DETERMINISTIC APPLICATION OF RULES. How smart are we?"

      So the guy at the PC said to himself "Thank you for nothing, guys" and went making himself coffee.

      And the creatures were sensible. After all, if the guy at the PC wanted the creatures to figure it out he could easily have programmed the game with elements that blatantly break the rules of the game. Perhaps he could have made indestructible walls the shape of a guy sitting at a desk with a computer on it. The creatures would eventually have mapped it and marveled at the mysterious pattern.

    17. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Given the fact that I use the same logic to make the (in)existence of any God irrelevant to my living, I would actually applaud those game of life beings for coming up to the same conclusion. They can't observe me, and unless I start intervening (and then be observed), it makes no difference to them if I exist or not, no matter how much I bitch that they don't worship me or give me credit for their existence. I know I pressed the "Run" button. They have no way of knowing that. They can philosophise that somebody pressed a "Run" button, but there's no proof to it. And that somebody doesn't even have to identify as me. They can invent any number of "supernatural" gods that "inspired" them while I'm having that coffee - i.e. I'm not even at the computer, and I locked my screen - or I logged out of the MMORPG and its just the cloud applying rules in my absence.

    18. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by Jason+Levine · · Score: 2

      One of my favorite explanations actually comes from science fiction writer Isaac Asimov in the short story "How It Happened." Let's assume for a second that God really did tell Moses and Aaron what to write in the Bible, He would obviously need to give an allegorical account of what happened in the past and not a literal one. No human could write out a literal blow-by-blow history of the Universe and no human could ever read such an accounting. (Of course, my personal belief is that the Bible is a moral tale and not a historical tale. You are supposed to read it and think "people should act this way", not read it and think "women were really created by a rib surgically removed from the first man.")

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
    19. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by marcello_dl · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Nothing that breaks the rules can be proven as breaking them, from the inside. What if the exception is part of the rules?

      --
      ---- MISSING MISCELLANEOUS DATA SEGMENT --- [sigdash] trolololol
    20. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by ultranova · · Score: 1

      We know that the universe itself is a finite age, and it did not always exist....

      No, not really. Time is a property of the physical universe, so saying "universe did not always exist" is an ill-defined concept - it's referring to a point in time before time began. And since time is governed by General Relativity, which is incompatible with out current theories of quantum mechanics, saying anything certain about how it behaved in an early universe is extremely difficult.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    21. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by Artifakt · · Score: 2

      A mainline Protestant would argue that the Bible is sufficient for grace. it doesn't have to be totally accurate, or directly dictated by God, to lead souls back to God. It just has to have enough in it that people end up being saved. Some denominations hold that the reason for this is so God doesn't interfere with free will in giving the writers inspiration, or even in letting the readers make up their own minds. Other denominations don't take any particular position on why it was done that way. I can see some real problems with all of this, but I'm not a mainline Protestant. Anyway, you begged the question there, and it turns out that there is another answer and the religions you are arguing with have plenty of experience with people bringing this up..

      --
      Who is John Cabal?
    22. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by Jason+Levine · · Score: 4, Funny

      If gods of our ancestors were so all powerful, why do they seem to have a messaging problem?

      Can create vast amounts of items but has trouble communicating his views to others? God is a Geek!!!

      Just be glad that he's not very good at messaging. Then God would be from Marketing. The Lord of All Creation coming from Marketing? Not that would be scary!

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
    23. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by TheCarp · · Score: 3, Insightful

      They are absolutely correct, there is no creator, he doesn't exist inside their universe. Within the context of their universe, the existance or nonexsitance of this creator is essentially meaningless to them.

      I really think the clock in a black box metaphor for scientific theories is the best. If someone gives you a watch and you have no way to look inside.... you can make observations, you can model its behgaviour, you can make theories which make predictions.... but unless you can open it, any gears you postulate, no matter how accurately they may model the output, can never be proven to be what is inside.

      Until you can devise a test based on observations that seperates one theory of whats inside form another, then the claim of which predictive theory with equivalent results is better has no basis.

      So until a theory of a creator produces a testable hypothesis, its really nothing special at all.

      --
      "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
    24. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by meta-monkey · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I've always been surprised at people who give consideration to the simulation argument, but none to God. If we're living in a simulation (which I think is decently probable, relativity and wave/particle duality being emergent properties of programming kludges to save cycles), then this simulation was created by someone. That someone would be omnipotent and omniscient with regards to this reality, exists outside of this reality, and created this reality. That's the definition of God. God is the Programmer.

      --
      We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
    25. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by Mr.+Slippery · · Score: 4, Informative

      You are supposed to read it and think "people should act this way",

      Yes, with the genocide and the slavery and the misogyny and the mock executions of sons by their fathers, what a fine world it would be if we followed the moral example of the Bible.

      --
      Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
      You cannot wash away blood with blood
    26. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by butalearner · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Let's simplify.

      Conway's game of life creatures became sentient. They discovered they are made of cells. They said "Look, THE INFINITESIMAL CELL is always created from NOTHING. If things happens FROM NOTHING, there is NO NEED FOR A CREATOR, so THERE IS NO CREATOR, and besides NOBODY ever witnessed something different THAN THE DETERMINISTIC APPLICATION OF RULES. How smart are we?"

      So the guy at the PC said to himself "Thank you for nothing, guys" and went making himself coffee.

      Note that the guy at the PC doesn't care what happens to the sentient creatures, doesn't interact with them in any way after he starts the universe, and doesn't take any portion of the sentient creature with him for all eternity.

      You have it wrong, anyway. The vast majority of these creatures would say that they were Created. Some would simply accept this, having been taught so ever since birth, specifically with the knowledge that questioning their beliefs is one of the worst things they could do. Some others would look at the rules and realize that, had the rules been different, they would not have existed at all. They would see that as proof as a Creator and (through some further leap of logic) the rest of their beliefs, even though such a "proof" of the former does not in any way imply the latter. Still others would simply take Pascal's Wager and hope that their particular religion is the correct one.

    27. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by TangoMargarine · · Score: 1

      So we can say that the universe always did and always will exist, yet still has a beginning and ending point? Sweet.

      *mind blown*

      --
      Unity? Screw that: XFCE. Slashdot Beta? Screw that: SoylentNews. Australis? Screw that: Pale Moon. UX developers DIAF
    28. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by TangoMargarine · · Score: 1

      What evidence?

      I'm filing this one under "if we mangle these numbers hard enough, they support our hypothesis." I would say that I'd be open to changing my mind if someone explained it to me, but I doubt it's possible for non-physicists to really understand it to begin with.

      --
      Unity? Screw that: XFCE. Slashdot Beta? Screw that: SoylentNews. Australis? Screw that: Pale Moon. UX developers DIAF
    29. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by Oligonicella · · Score: 1

      "He doesn't exist inside their universe", other than being able to create and inject another cell or two if desired.

    30. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by pitchpipe · · Score: 4, Funny

      So the guy at the PC said to himself "Thank you for nothing, guys" and went making himself coffee.

      Actually the guy at the computer decided to torture those little fucks for the rest of eternity for being so presumptuous, because he loved them unconditionally.

      --
      Look where all this talking got us, baby.
    31. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by TangoMargarine · · Score: 4, Funny

      When people believe in gods that can't invent wireless camera phones

      Yeah, because if it suddenly started raining iPhones in 5 A.D., that totally wouldn't have turned anybody into gibbering lunatics.

      --
      Unity? Screw that: XFCE. Slashdot Beta? Screw that: SoylentNews. Australis? Screw that: Pale Moon. UX developers DIAF
    32. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by TangoMargarine · · Score: 1

      I prefer to take the tack, "If there WASN'T anything at all, we wouldn't be having this conversation, so it kind of doesn't matter."

      I have that thought every time somebody starts arguing about how it's so massively unlikely that life would come to exist. Well...it does...so what's your point?

      Not that it isn't fun to think about, though. Kind of like time travel :-)

      --
      Unity? Screw that: XFCE. Slashdot Beta? Screw that: SoylentNews. Australis? Screw that: Pale Moon. UX developers DIAF
    33. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by tompaulco · · Score: 2

      The special pleading knows no bounds. No matter what, idiots are always going to claim their sky daddy is an exception to the rules they say the universe is logically subject to.

      Why would a creator be subject to the rules of his creation? Is a painter subject to the rules of his painting? Is a musician subject to the rules of his music? Is a programmer bound by the rules of his programming?

      --
      If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
    34. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      It's probably not as much about what he could have done as it is about what he did or didn't do.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    35. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by vyvepe · · Score: 1

      So tell me again how atheist are better than religious people?

      Religion is actually very usefull for people. You need to realize that god is a universal excuse. If something does not go well we can always "blame" god instead of figuring out why it did not go well. If we do something wrong we can believe that god will fix it for us and pardons us (possibly after a confession). Or we can claim the god actually wanted us to do wrong. It allows us to stay lazy instead of improving ourselves. God is also very usefull for people who cannot cope with uncertainties of reality. Moreover it allows the clever people to manipulate the rest. Yeah we (as a society) pretty much need a god. So sad!

    36. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by rasmusbr · · Score: 2

      Nothing that breaks the rules can be proven as breaking them, from the inside. What if the exception is part of the rules?

      That is only true in a strict sense of the word "rules". If say 99.9999% of space obeys a certain set of rules and 0.0001% breaks them then any intelligent being (intelligence being pattern recognition among other things) would stare at the other 0.0001% and wonder.

      For example if someone produced an indestructible toast with the face of Jesus, or Mohammed, or Buddha, I and many other atheists would be lining up outside whichever church, mosque or temple we were lead to.

    37. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      It's Dragon Dictate all the way down?

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    38. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That someone would be omnipotent and omniscient with regards to this reality

      These are very loaded words. What exactly is meant by "omniscient", for example? The capability to find out anything about our universe, or the ability to find out everything about this universe? Or the ability to predict either anything or everything that hasn't happened yet? At one point, you're assuming a being whose complexity would be greater than the complexity of its own creation. Much like, e.g., we understand everything about a crankshaft but fail to understand many of our own computer simulations. There are a lot of people (like me) who don't strictly denounce the possibility of an "external" (or "transcendent") creator or simulator, but aren't buying the "our universe (or human bodies, or whatever) is too complex so it needs a creator" nonsense.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    39. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by RoccamOccam · · Score: 2

      And lo, God moveth his cursor to a desolate and uninhabited region and createth a glider. And all the people praised his name.

    40. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by ultranova · · Score: 1

      Of course gods are imaginary, and you can't really say that the imagined central character inspired a piece of fiction. That would be crazy.

      God(s) may or may not be imaginary, but many works were inspired by imaginary characters, and any long-running series tends towards "character X meets situation Y and reacts".

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    41. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by Oligonicella · · Score: 1

      Like everything, some parts yes, some parts no.

    42. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by Hentai · · Score: 2

      Not if he gave them free willl, meaning even the ability to do things that were "outside" of the creator's will/temperament.

      Can you explain what that means within the context of "THE DETERMINISTIC APPLICATION OF RULES", please? Because otherwise you are making zero sense whatsoever.

      --
      -Hentai [in vita non pacem est]
    43. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

      I for one do stare at black holes and wonder what's inside?

      Coincidently Conway's game of life got me interested in programming way back in the mid 80's. The original argument you pose is of course the same one posed in the matrix. Douglas Adams does the best version of the counter argument.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    44. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 1

      if god is our programmer, then its just a real shame the whole job was outsourced to a low quality job-shop...

      this life is quite shitty and yes, I could easily design a better and more just system if I was omni-powerful, as god is attributed.

      I like woody allen's quote 'god was an under-achiever'.

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    45. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by lonOtter · · Score: 1

      Unlike other works of fiction (and even in works of fiction, you can say some truthful things), many people seem to take the bible seriously.

      --
      [End Of Line]
    46. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by SleazyRidr · · Score: 1

      I've always seen it as just a different way of addressing the same problem. How can you really know what exists outside the universe? It could be God, it could be a programmer, it could be that the universe is an elementary particle in a larger universe. We really have no way to know, and it's doubtful that we'll ever know.

    47. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by Oligonicella · · Score: 1

      Not so. Some believe it has a finite age. This could be overturned in a moment with discovery. For instance, by coming to understand the reason some quasars associated with galaxies have red shifts far greater than their associates.

    48. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      God is obviously from Human Resources.

      Nobody else could get things so wrong.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    49. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by aaaaaaargh! · · Score: 3, Interesting

      "superior level"???

      Why not talk about about the great Matma, an inferior level, the mysterious Wumpus, or the Flying Spaghetti monster instead?

    50. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by tompaulco · · Score: 1

      Atheists really need to be lumped in with religious people, because they display the same characteristics. An unwavering devotion to their belief system and a need to convert others to that belief system. Fundamentalist religions and fundamentalist atheists go one step further; they don't even want to convert anybody. they just want them to die. In the last 50 years or so, we haven't had any atheists of this extreme in positions of power, fortunately. But there are political systems run by various religions that will happily kill you if you don't believe what they believe, without giving you even the opportunity to consider switching religions.
      An atheist believes there is no God or gods. They can only "believe" this. They must have faith in this. They cannot prove this, because science, which the atheists believe in, cannot prove or disprove a philosophical argument. So the atheist is left with only faith in the non-existence of god or gods.
      Give me an agnostic any day of the week over an atheist or any other religious nut. At least an agnostic is scientific about it. They don't know whether there is a God, and they can't prove it one way or the other. Neither can anybody else, but at least the agnostics accept the fact.

      --
      If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
    51. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by countach · · Score: 1

      Errm, I'd like to hear your argument of how it has nothing to do with it.

      Even this paper argues the big bang could come from a "quantum fluctuation", which in my book is "something". It must be something, because they gave it this specific scientific name, rather than "nothing". Then the question is how did a quantum fluctuation come from nothing.

      If this posting is your best effort against creationists, looks like you just let them win.

    52. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by Curunir_wolf · · Score: 1

      We are God: "The Last Question" by Isaac Asimov.

      I believe the ultimate assertion from Heinlein's "Stranger in a Strange Land" was "You are God". And not just as an idea from a new perspective, but as a studied examination of the underlying spiritual lessons from all human religions.

      --
      "Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
      --- Jerry Garcia
    53. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by meta-monkey · · Score: 4, Interesting

      , I could easily design a better and more just system

      For some value of "better." You have no idea what the Programmer's motive and design goal is. We simulate un-perfect worlds all the time. This could all be a game of World of Warcraft for higher dimensional beings. Azeroth is a pretty fucked-up place because if it were all peaceful and just the game would be boring. We would have no more understanding of the Programmer than my WoW character has of me.

      We simulate our own universe, too, to try to understand it better. This could just be a much, much more high-fidelity simulation of the Programmer's universe.

      It could even be an experiment to see if simulated beings, shown a perfect paradise and expelled from it could, left to their own devices, re-create that same paradise after being shown an example of perfect love and sacrifice. In that case, Jesus was the Programmer's avatar in this reality, and Christianity is true.

      --
      We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
    54. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by cusco · · Score: 2

      Ever think we might be a Beta release?

      --
      "Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
    55. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by aaaaaaargh! · · Score: 1

      No human could write out a literal blow-by-blow history of the Universe and no human could ever read such an accounting.

      Why not? At least you should try to give some reasons!

      He would obviously need to give an allegorical account of what happened in the past and not a literal one.

      Obviously? Again, care to give any reasons? Why allegorical? It's not at all obvious, especially since shortened != allegorical, concise != allegorical, abstract != allegorical, and so forth. Why should a god dictate us the history of the universe and additionally shroud it in mystery up to about the highest level possible? It makes no sense!

      We're in the 21 Century and you are still figuring out ways how to interpret phrases like "women were really created by a rib surgically removed from the first man" along the lines of "people should act this way" (what way? like spare ribs?)? No offense, but you "modern, moderate, feelgood" Christians really make me shake my head.

    56. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by cusco · · Score: 1

      Well, that would explain Leviticus, god had a sore throat and Dragon garbled everything he said that day.

      --
      "Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
    57. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by meta-monkey · · Score: 1

      I would say "capable of knowing anything." If this is a simulation, the Programmer would be able to run the simulation forwards or backwards, pop in anywhere and anywhen and manipulate anything in the simulation as He willed. That is omniscient and omnipotent. The simulated consciousnesses (us) would be none the wiser.

      The complexity of our bodies/the universe could be emergent properties of the initial conditions the Programmer specified, meaning He could create the universe without necessarily understanding the complexity of creating our own bodies.

      For what purpose? Who can understand the motives of such a being? But a few ideas....

      Perhaps this is how new art and literature are created in the Programmer's universe. We've created computer programs that can auto-generate music. Perhaps simulated consciousnesses given simulated experiences produce art, literature and music that beings in the real world enjoy. Mozart, Elvis and the Beatles are amongst the Outer World's favorite programs, and damn if they don't love Twilight.

      Perhaps this is how the higher-level beings reproduce. They create consciousnesses in a simulated world to train them and impart wisdom. When their simulated lives end, they are examined to determine whether they are wise and advanced enough to join the real world (our afterlife) in a real body, or if they're recycled for another go around on Earth, or simply destroyed if they're not up to standards. Or, if the Programmers are sadistic, tortured forever in a simulated Hell. I really hope it's not that last one.

      --
      We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
    58. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by cusco · · Score: 1

      The thing is, people really DID act that way, slaughtering entire cities, dashing the heads of the children of conquered people against walls, salting fields so that it cannot be farmed for generations, burning peasants alive in their homes, and the like. The 20th century was the first in which the opportunity to rape and plunder with impunity throughout the occupied territory was not used as an incentive to sign up for the military.

      --
      "Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
    59. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      Thinking about it, it really explains a lot of the Bible. Messed up vocabulary, slow network, dissolute macros. I'll bet papyrus made a lousy microphone diaphragm.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    60. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by jythie · · Score: 1

      You know.. ..if I had a time machine and too much free time, that would be some serious lulz.

    61. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by meta-monkey · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I'm never sure if I want there to be an afterlife or not. And I'm Catholic. I have faith in God, but I can never know.

      Really, what bothers me more than anything is the concept of hell. The exact nature of hell isn't really laid out in the Bible. It's described as being cut off from God and his goodness, permanently, which would be torment to us who were created by Him. But that doesn't tell you if it's really lakes of fire and demons with pitchforks (which was really just Dante's depiction that inspired everyone who came after), or if it's just some shitty shanty town...or if it's this reality we're in right now. But, if it is the whole 'torturing forever' thing, first thing I'm doing when I get to heaven is I'm tugging on God's cape and saying, "hey, can we get those people out of there?" I have no idea how I'm supposed to party forever in heaven with Jesus if there's even one soul suffering in hell.

      While I have faith in God, I also kinda hope I'm wrong and there's simply nothing after death, because I would rather have there be nothing for me than torture for anyone.

      --
      We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
    62. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by lonOtter · · Score: 1

      An atheist believes there is no God or gods. They can only "believe" this. They must have faith in this.

      An atheist lacks a belief in a god; nothing more. I lack a belief in Santa, the flying spaghetti monster, magical invisible pink unicorns, and many other things that I have no reason to believe in. If this is "faith," then your definition of "faith" is useless indeed. There is simply no reason for me to believe in such a thing as a god, and the very notion sounds ridiculous.

      At least an agnostic is scientific about it.

      Is this the same as an agnostic atheist?

      Funnily enough, you seem to have an unwavering devotion to your own belief system.

      --
      [End Of Line]
    63. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by khallow · · Score: 1

      Well, glancing at the story, nobody actually got raped. The agents of God, the angels in question drove off the mob. And protecting invited guests was serious business in those days.

    64. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by kheldan · · Score: 1

      You're modded as (5, Funny), but it's not funny: That's exactly what the religious types will say: "See? God did it!" because we can't determine with any reasonable degree of certainty what's outside our Universe, we only have theories.

      This whole 'religion' thing is going to plague us for at least a few thousand years more (if we're lucky) until we've evolved past the need for it. Assuming the human race is still around in a few thousand years, that is.

      --
      Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
    65. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 2

      Such a limited view of justice, such that justice doesn't exist except your version of justice, which by definition isn't justice but revenge. Which is how you view others definitions of justice, and thus, is exactly what you typed here.

      Simply put (because I realize you probably can't understand the above), your view of "god" is limited because you can't (don't) believe in one. Because you don't believe, it jades your viewpoint in such a way to support your view.

      Here's a thought, any god that forces people to be "good" doesn't believe in free will. That makes one a dictator and evil. Benevolence allows choice, but holds people responsible for their choices(Justice). You have chosen, shouldn't you be responsible for your choice ... for eternity? OR would you rather be forced to comply to doing things against your will, simply so you won't spend eternity being held responsible for your choice?

      But then again, that is the whole liberal mindset, freedom to do whatever you want, whenever you want and avoid consequences at whatever cost. Blaming others for their own failures.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    66. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by sjames · · Score: 1

      He'll be around longer than the simulation, or at least his successor will be.

      The assumption that he knows everything about it is just a supposition of a faction of the beings in the simulation.

    67. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      Physics has their own version of "God", it is called "dark matter". They believe it exists because this magical material is used to fill in the voids of all the problems they have with their current models. It has never been seen (thus "dark") they believe it exists (thus "matter") but they cannot confirm or deny it via scientific proof.

      But since is is cloaked in "scientific" terminology, they count it as science, even though it clearly is not subject to the scientific method.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    68. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by Zalbik · · Score: 1

      And in all of the examples you gave, that would make the Programmer a needlessly cruel and sadistic bastard.

      Anyone creating such a simulation would know full well the "simulated" suffering he would inflict upon his "simulated beings" by running the simulation.

    69. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by kallisti · · Score: 1

      >The creatures would eventually have mapped it and marveled at the mysterious pattern.

      Sounds like you need to read Permutation City by Greg Egan. Some researchers build (well, sort of...) a really complex cellular automation and inject (well, sort of...) themselves into it. When life arises in the sim, they try to convince the new life forms that they created the universe. It doesn't go well.

    70. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by kallisti · · Score: 1

      *Spoiler alert* That is essentially the conclusion of Olaf Stapledon's book Star Maker.

    71. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by TheCarp · · Score: 1

      > In Conway's game of life there are strict rules for where new cells are set and old are removed. By
      > injecting cells you invalidate those rules and they no longer works.

      By injecting cells you are no longer playing conways game of life.

      > That is, sentient cells would be able to observe that certain cells doesn't work according to the rule-set.

      No. You are postulating something that seems to make sense on the surface but, why would the sentient cells have any particular knowledge of what the rules that created them are? Those rules and the machine that interprets them is also not contained within their universe.

      Now, I will concede that yes, it should be possible for such a creator to induce phenomena in such a way as to convince them he exists and open up some communication channel; however, simply exercising his power to add the occasional cell outside of the normal rules wouldn't really do that.

      It might create a situation where they have phenomena they can't reconcile, but that doesn't prove anything in particular... "retrograde" planet motions used to be unreconcilable phenomena too.

      --
      "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
    72. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by mark-t · · Score: 1

      It's not remotely logically impossible for the universe to have always existed, but based upon the evidence that we have so far, it appears that it did not. Our scientific sampling, therefore, consists only of things which are of finite age, but that doesn't mean that's all that exists.

      I would maintain that a God who is powerful enough to have created everything else that exists must be necessarily beyond or above reality as we can ever hope to understand it... transcendental is a term I've often heard used, but I dislike the term because the word "real" itself can refer to a set of numbers in mathematics, and transcendental numbers are part of the real number set, so I am more partial to terms like "superreal" or "sureal". Trying to prove the existence of something which such characteristics using only what is real is kind of pointless, since it is very easy to start with an assumption that only real things can exist, and anything which exists must necessarily be real. As logical as this assumption might be, bear in mind also that even logically valid assumptions do not necessarily have to be true. This assumption does not hold in mathematics for example (most complex numbers are not real, for instance, but prior to their discovery any so-called "number" with properties that did not fit those of real numbers was assumed to not exist at all), so I'm of the opinion that the assumption that it must hold anywhere else in particular needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

    73. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Exactly. No point kissing God's arse in the hope of getting favours because there is no evidence that he works like that. In fact if you look at all the bad things that happen to religious people the only possible conclusions are that either worship has no effect or actually pisses him off.

      Your Sundays would be better spent doing something productive or enjoying, rather than on some silly ceremony.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    74. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by WormholeFiend · · Score: 1

      Sadly, we are probably a cheaper, outsourced knock-off.

      Source: We were made in His image.

    75. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by koan · · Score: 1

      Depends on your definition of God.

      --
      "If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
    76. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      The problem with your argument is that it is essentially meaningless. Okay, we can't preclude the existence of God, but so what? What can we do with that knowledge?

      It provides no evidence or support for any religion's definition or description of God. It doesn't suggest that we should worship him. It doesn't even suggest he is uncaring because we have no way of knowing if we can influence his creation now it exists, or if we can even observe it. At best we can say he doesn't appear to have built any kind of morality or fairness into the universe itself, but we have no way of knowing if that is by design, lack of ability or accident.

      In other words it's pointless speculation that doesn't help anyone live their life or derive any kind of comfort. A novelty at best.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    77. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      You have it wrong, anyway. The vast majority of these creatures would say that they were Created.

      As far as I am aware only humans have religion, all "lower" animals don't. Even for humans it appears we only stick to the same religion for a relatively short amount of time, a few thousand years at most during which each one evolves and changes greatly. Now we are coming to a point where religion will probably die out for the most part within a couple of hundred years, and if we last another million it will have been an anomaly in our early history.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    78. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by JackDW · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Hmm. Experience suggests the intelligent beings would stare at the 0.0001% and either deny the evidence for it, deny its relevance, or try to destroy it. Inconvenient facts are inconvenient.

      You want a piece of toast with the face of Jesus? You already had a man with the face of Jesus, and look what happened to him.... What chance does some toast stand?

      --
      You're an immobile computer, remember?
    79. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by AmiMoJo · · Score: 2

      Thing is if God did have a direct hand in the Bible, or dictate the Koran as is claimed, he did a pretty terrible job. For a guy who is supposed to be super smart and all knowing he didn't make his wishes and intentions very clear, and arguably ended up doing far more harm than good.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    80. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by inasity_rules · · Score: 2

      Perhaps, but the excessive use of CAPITAL letters, does not help his case much.

      The trouble is not mathematics though, it is philosophy, which some argue is a ridiculous thing as their version of science trumps all philosophy. A perhaps untenable philosophical position.

      As one who believes in the existence of a creator, I am unsure I find his arguments convincing on a philosophical level. Deism is functionally indistinguishable from agnosticism or outright atheism..

      --
      I have determined that my sig is indeterminate.
    81. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by alexo · · Score: 2

      You have no idea what the Programmer's motive and design goal is. [...]
      We would have no more understanding of the Programmer than my WoW character has of me.

      And yet, some people go around proclaiming that they know all about The Programmer's goals, motivations and rules just because somebody handed them a "programming for dummies" book.

    82. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by Cragen · · Score: 2

      Well, a "studied examination of the underlying spiritual lessons from all human religions", in this case, can lead to a valid perspective. I do think that the proof of that statement can be found (more easier by us lesser folk) by practical, serious meditation on the nature of one's self (body and mind). For anyone who thinks he is a Person, just how much control over your body or mind do you really have? In math, one failure in the proof invalidates the whole thing. As always, it is always the "unhappy" who search for a better life or way of life (I think) so the phrase might ring a bit unreal to those who are not searching for mental relief, but I have found the phrase to accurately portray our reality. Indeed, either "We" or "You" would be appropriate. Rather like glasses of water, only the containers differ in nature, and that is probably a delusion, too.

    83. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by inasity_rules · · Score: 1

      If you embrace naturalism you must assume that there is a natural explanation for everything (toast included), and thus it would be illogical for you to leave that position simply because you failed to find an explanation. While I applaud your open-mind, I have to question if toast would (or indeed should) be sufficient. That includes characters played by Matt Berry. Full disclosure - I don't hold to naturalism myself...

      --
      I have determined that my sig is indeterminate.
    84. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by Cragen · · Score: 1

      I cannot prove any "he" (or she) exists. I can prove "we" exist. But we (most of us) have no idea what "we" really are.

    85. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by inasity_rules · · Score: 1

      That is often paraded out as the ultimate question to "resolve" God. The trouble is, I have always found, one tends to end up at the same point from which one started. And then both sides have a nice little flame war and storm off in a huff.. Oh, wait, this is /. Carry on...

      --
      I have determined that my sig is indeterminate.
    86. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by inasity_rules · · Score: 1

      His name wasn't John Calvin by any chance?

      --
      I have determined that my sig is indeterminate.
    87. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by micahraleigh · · Score: 1

      And the minions said, "No, you don't need to punish us for all eternity. Nothing you do can harm us as much as the despair, guilt, anxiety, and intellectual posturing we foster on ourselves."

    88. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by pitchpipe · · Score: 1

      Such a limited view of justice, such that justice doesn't exist except your version of justice, which by definition isn't justice but revenge. Which is how you view others definitions of justice, and thus, is exactly what you typed here.

      Translation:

      God works in mysterious ways.

      I figure you can substitute the phrase "fucked up" for 'mysterious' and the meaning would be more clear. Or maybe just add it, i.e. "God works in mysterious, fucked up ways."

      Simply put (because I realize you probably can't understand the above)...

      Thank you, Archangel Michael, for deigning to try to educate the uneducable. You are doing, err... God's work.

      ... that is the whole liberal mindset, freedom to do whatever you want, whenever you want and avoid consequences at whatever cost. Blaming others for their own failures.

      Nice straw man. Were you able to kick his ass? I hear they can be rough.

      --
      Look where all this talking got us, baby.
    89. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by Agent0013 · · Score: 1

      When people believe in gods that can't invent wireless camera phones

      Yeah, because if it suddenly started raining iPhones in 5 A.D., that totally wouldn't have turned anybody into gibbering lunatics.

      No. if it started raining iPhones, then science would come up with an explanation of how iPhones can be formed in the upper atmosphere via molecular accumulation and then fall from the clouds once fully accumulated. Science can explain everything you know! Just look at the Big Bang and the expansion of the universe and all that other amazing stuff!

      --

      -- ssoorrrryy,, dduupplleexx sswwiittcchh oonn.. -Quote found on actual fortune cookie.
    90. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by blackiner · · Score: 1

      The difference is people are looking for actual evidence of it, and come up with theories and experiments to prove its nature. They only reason physicists came up with it in the first place is because... they did experiments and observed space, and noticed that there was too much gravity compared to observable objects. There is a pattern here, observation, theory, experiment, confirmation or denial of theory. How does one currently unexplainable scientific observation suddenly equate to "scientists own version of god"?

    91. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by pitchpipe · · Score: 1

      How about the people that read the Bible and don't listen to God?
      Many "religious" people are basically frauds. They take the parts of the Bible that suit them and ignore the really important stuff.

      I was saying the same thing to a "Scotsman" just the other day.
      As we all know no Scotsman drinks his tea with cream.
      Well here was this "Scotsman" drinking his tea with cream.
      I said to him,"No true Scotsman drinks his tea with cream."
      He replied,"Well I drink my tea with cream!"
      I said,"As I said,'No true Scotsman drinks his tea with cream.'"

      --
      Look where all this talking got us, baby.
    92. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      By your example, we have NO good example of how people should behave. All humans are critically flawed, and therefore we should not act in any way other than how we want. Selfishness is the end result of your argumentative point. There is no perfection in the human condition. Period.

      Of course, that is kind of the point in the Bible, if you can get beyond your own bigotry and ignorance, taking stories (literal or figurative) out of context and extrapolating your own flawed viewpoint out of them. Having read the whole book series of book, including the apocryphal, I see it for what it is, a tale of flawed people who need redemption.

      Of course if you're perfect, you don't need redemption. And if you're not perfect, and don't want redemption because you like your flaws, well then you're part of the problem, and not a solution.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    93. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      "We know that the universe itself is a finite age"

      We don't "know" this. We assume it based on the facts we have as we understand them. There are a couple conditions (assumptions), 1) Time is a single dimension, 2) Dark Matter exists (we have no proof). There are good reasons to believe that time is not single dimension, which interestingly enough would negate the need for Dark Matter, while also explaining redshift light in a non-expanding universe that has always existed.

      As humans, we assume things not in evidence, based on what we know. But if what we "know" is wrong, then our assumptions are likely to also be wrong.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    94. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by lonOtter · · Score: 1

      What are you talking about?

      --
      [End Of Line]
    95. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      There is no difference. People are also searching for "proof" of God, and theories and experiments to prove HIS nature. The fact is, dark matter is theoretical and unprovable, and may not exist at all, because our limited viewpoint cannot allow for us to discover this truth.

      "They only reason physicists came up with it in the first place is because... they did experiments and observed space, and noticed that there was too much gravity compared to observable objects"

      This is 100% true, but flawed logic. They assume that which is not in evidence. They created a "force" (god) to account for things they observed (miracles), that they couldn't explain otherwise. The only thing they have done is cloaked it in "sciency" language to mask the fact that they have done the very thing that they make fun of religious people of doing.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    96. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by DiscountBorg(TM) · · Score: 1

      If we can be living in a simulation then there's no reason a supposed god can't be in a simulation either, with no basis for knowing where 'reality' begins. It's still turtles all the way down with the simulation argument.

      Actually this seems somewhat reminiscent of the ontological argument but with a 20th century vibe.

      --
      "The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." George Bernard Shaw
    97. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by lonOtter · · Score: 1

      As far has been presented, he's saying these acts are unethical, which we could know only by reference to an objective standard, and the only standard under discussion is the one he's rejecting.

      Evolution has nothing to do with anything, then. And I believe he was stating his opinion.

      I could, actually, dispose rather quickly of whatever his objection is as merely his unbacked subjective feelings

      That's true of anyone, though. Even if you claim that what you're doing is objectively correct, someone can disagree. Indeed, that happened an uncountable number of times throughout history. Pretending that these things are objective does not stop 'bad' things from happening.

      which he mostly has by his unadmitted assimilation of theistic norms from a theistic culture

      I don't think it takes a theistic culture for people to believe that these sorts of things are wrong.

      --
      [End Of Line]
    98. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by rasmusbr · · Score: 1

      I suspect it will eventually be shown through logical argument (if it hasn't been already) that it is impossible to construct a coherent system of thought. The general trend in physics and philosophy alike seems to be that we progressively find out that the universe is stranger and nastier than we thought it could be, yet sufficiently nice for us to be able to exist.

      The invulnerable Jesus toast would be sufficient for me to go through with the water on head ceremony and to place provisional belief in the idea that the Bible is essentially true. It would then take something equally remarkable to nudge that provisional belief in some other direction.

    99. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by Atzanteol · · Score: 1

      The thing is - Lot was "the guy" God saved. This shining example of humanity offered his daughters up to an angry mob for gang-rape. Sure "in that time and context" it may have been a "big deal." But we're talking about objective morals set forth by a morally perfect deity. God in the story effectively rubber stamps Lot's actions as those of a virtuous man since he allows him to be saved.

      Not to mention the laughable tale at the end about how Lot's daughters "get him drunk and sleep with him." Riiiiight. That's it. *They* seduced *me*!

      --
      "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge"

      - Charles Darwin
    100. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by DiscountBorg(TM) · · Score: 1

      That's assuming he's not in a simulation himself. How does he know he's not?

      --
      "The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." George Bernard Shaw
    101. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by SleazyRidr · · Score: 1

      That's something I'd never really thought about. Especially since you're supposed to be compassionate to get into heaven. I guess for someone who doesn't believe, they're spending eternity without God anyway, since they never thought he existed in the first place. Maybe they get what they think will happen anyway and they just die and stop existing. Those who do believe always had God and always will. Maybe those who don't believe are taken to heaven, but since they won't open their hearts to see they don't think they're really there. You've definitely sparked some deep thought for me, at least.

    102. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by blackiner · · Score: 1

      They came up with what they thought was a reasonable theory. It is just one theory to explain it, there are other possibilities. The key is that they make theories that are consistent with the observable universe, and if they end up being unprovable by experiments or observations, then they are discarded, and then scientists go back to the great question, Why? You can see this with string theory, a lot of it is mathematically sound, but there is no actual observable evidence of it, so quite a few scientists now just regard it as unprovable nonsense. They may well regard dark matter/energy as nonsense if evidence continues to fall short. That is the whole point of science, observe something, come up with ideas for "Why?", and then test them. If they fail to explain it, then the theory is eventually discarded, and new ones must be made.

      And that is exactly how science differs from religion. Religion is set in stone, there is only one true word of god, the bible. The mere text of it is considered divine and straight from god, written with the influence of the holy spirit. It is infallible, it cannot be questioned, and when it is proven wrong, or parts of it continue to fail the evidence test, the religious simply say "You need to have faith". There is no furthering of knowledge with religion, it is essentially a dead end that has already been decided.

    103. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by UnknownSoldier · · Score: 1

      > You have no idea what the Programmer's motive and design goal is.

      Relationships.

      The sole reason any of the universes exist is to teach consciousness about relationships.

    104. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by DiscountBorg(TM) · · Score: 1

      A simulation can employ stochastic, random, indeterminate processes, it doesn't have to be deterministic. However, indeterminate, random processes hardly equate with free will either. Actually, I think the simulation argument is far more effective for questioning concepts of free will than it is a metaphor or proof of god. (Especially when it is liable to infinite recursion, simulation within simulation, who really is god, is 'god' inside a simulation and bound to its rules?).

      --
      "The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." George Bernard Shaw
    105. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by tompaulco · · Score: 1

      Why would the universe magically have to have a beginning, but not some sky fairy?

      Because in this universe there is such a thing as time, however, if a being created this universe, it seems logical that the being created time as well, and is not subject to the rules of time.

      --
      If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
    106. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by tompaulco · · Score: 1

      An atheist lacks a belief in a god; nothing more

      An agnostic lacks a belief in a god. An Atheist actively believes that god does not exist. It's right there in the word: Agnostic - I don't know if there is a god. Atheist - There is no god.

      Funnily enough, you seem to have an unwavering devotion to your own belief system.

      How is that funny? Everybody has to believe something. I believe I'll have another drink.
      I don't have an unwavering belief in my belief system, but I do have pretty strong faith which can only be moved by evidence to the contrary. I'm not going to refuse to sit in a chair on the assumption that somebody might come along and provide evidence that it doesn't exist.

      --
      If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
    107. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by mark-t · · Score: 1

      Fair enough... observable evidence seems to suggest that it is of a finite age. Obviously if we are interpreting the data incorrectly then our conclusions can be invalid.

      Of course, by that reasoning, the conclusion that God does not exist based on evidence (or the lack thereof) can be an equally invalid conclusion based on a misinterpretation of available data as well.

    108. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by inasity_rules · · Score: 1

      That is curious. What if you chose to believe based on invulnerable toast, and later found out it was a new accidental carbon alloy - and a phenomenon with a purely natural(if invaluable) explanation? That is my problem with toast as a proof. However, it proof appears to be a fairly subjective thing. Having watched some of the Pistorius trial (when one lives in a country it is wise to see a little of it's judicial system at work), it is fairly easy to see just how subjective something as simple as where a pair of jeans was at specific time. In your worldview toast may well be acceptable and my judgement meaningless.

      I do well agree with you though - as far as I can tell, any system of thought must rely either on external assumptions or internal inconsistency and in many cases, both. I would not like to try to prove this rigorously, but anecdotally, it seems to be true.

      --
      I have determined that my sig is indeterminate.
    109. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by marcello_dl · · Score: 1

      "Since we can create an abstraction, can we be an abstraction ourselves?" is a quite valid question, and it's also independent of religion or scientific discoveries.

      --
      ---- MISSING MISCELLANEOUS DATA SEGMENT --- [sigdash] trolololol
    110. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by lonOtter · · Score: 1

      An agnostic lacks a belief in a god. An Atheist actively believes that god does not exist. It's right there in the word: Agnostic - I don't know if there is a god. Atheist - There is no god.

      Agnosticism has to do with knowledge. There are agnostic theists and agnostic atheists, for example. There are also multiple definitions of "atheist," and one of them is simply the lack of belief in a god. I'm certainly not going to take god more seriously than I do flying spaghetti monsters or any other nonsensical thing that people could claim exists.

      I don't have an unwavering belief in my belief system

      The tone of your comment suggested otherwise to me.

      --
      [End Of Line]
    111. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by Your.Master · · Score: 1

      He's referring to sentient creatures. Sentient, I believe, should be understood to mean approximately human-like levels of intelligence and communication. It is reasonable to suppose such creatures will generate similar phenomena as humans -- abstract syntactic language, superstitions, science, etc.. Provided they don't go extinct first, anyway.

    112. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by amorsen · · Score: 1

      Is the Programmer aware that his simulated beings are sentient? Games simulate suffering beings all the time, but that is fine because computer programs are not sentient.

      --
      Finally! A year of moderation! Ready for 2019?
    113. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by khallow · · Score: 1

      Well, I guess the point of the story is that a righteous man is not a perfect man, a man with trivial moral choices, or a man who never experiences anything bad.

    114. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by amorsen · · Score: 1

      The 20th century was the first in which the opportunity to rape and plunder with impunity throughout the occupied territory was not used as an incentive to sign up for the military.

      That statement is too strong. There were certainly cases and countries where the opportunity to rape and plunder with impunity were used as an incentive to sign up for the military, and lots of rape and plunder was done.

      --
      Finally! A year of moderation! Ready for 2019?
    115. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by lonOtter · · Score: 1

      One is, in fact, required to have a coherent worldview.

      Really? Is someone going to beat up anyone who doesn't, or what?

      You don't get to say things like "physics is wrong, that's my opinion" with no actual backing of that stance.

      It's actually very possible to say that, but I wouldn't agree with it.

      But this is about morality.

      The structure of the statement implies you have an alternative you can support. Well, do so.

      Do what?

      That is your -claim-, that there is no objectively true stance. It is again, an unbacked claim on your part.

      "again"? I don't recall having this discussion before.

      Also, much like how there is no reason to believe in a god due to lack of evidence, I have no reason to believe in the existence of objective morality, especially given my observations.

      Were you correct, and you aren't

      Speaking of unbacked claims...

      because subjectivism means that for any given issue, Position X, and the exact opposite of Position X, are equally subjectively true.

      Equally subjectively true? In different people's minds, maybe. "Subjectivism" doesn't mean you have to agree with everyone.

      But if someone claims that they like apples, and they aren't lying, then it is objectively true that they like apples. To begin with, it is nonsensical to claim that someone's feelings about a subjective matter like morality are 'wrong'; what does that even mean? That their feelings don't exist? That some magical fairy decided they're wrong? What implications does that have, and how can you even tell?

      That doesn't alter the fact you have to actually specify your preferred culture for comparison, and defend the merits of its views.

      Have to? Why? Who's going to stop you from not doing that?

      What does any of this have to do with the above poster's comment, which just mocked the bible? As far as I can tell, nothing.

      Otherwise, your position is a void that as specified exists nowhere--you just are hesitant to admit that, naturally.

      I think you're confusing me with the person the AC replied to above. And someone could just as easily say that you're hesitant to admit you're wrong. It's quite easy to make claims about what someone else is thinking.

      --
      [End Of Line]
    116. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by rasmusbr · · Score: 1

      Well, in that case that carbon alloy would have to be held together by a mysterious principle previously unknown to us. My understanding is that chemical bonds can only be so strong, at least in the absence of another force pushing the atoms closer together.

      If someone found an artifact lightweight enough to hold in your hand, yet strong enough to be invulnerably to anything that we could throw at it, then that would be the most remarkable thing that has ever been recorded. It would take a long time and a lot of testing for people to accept it, but eventually we would have to incorporate it into our world view in one way or another. It would not be a smooth transition however way you choose to make it. Even a supposedly naturalistic explanation such as "hyper advanced space aliens who love Jesus kitsch" would be sufficiently strange that it would give birth to multiple new religions of people who would worship and call upon the aliens. The way I see it you might as well believe in the god of the Bible then.

      Besides I've read the Bible and I haven't found anything that proves that the "Lord God" character could not be a space alien. It's a nutty idea, but if there was evidence for it we would have to take that evidence into consideration.

    117. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by cusco · · Score: 1

      Yes, but the 20th century was the first time that was the exception, rather than the rule. You're right, I didn't phrase it very well.

      --
      "Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
    118. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by marcello_dl · · Score: 1

      The time of the simulation is independent of the time of the PC guy but they are related. Eternal, as outside time, is different from enjoying an infinite amount of time. The Game creatures think in terms of frames, that is lossly related to CPU time. The Game can be backed up, interrupted and reverted and the additional axis of time in the PC guy dimension tells that there is something that binds the PC guy. So if he said he is omnipotent regarding the simulation he lies, ditto omniscient.

      On the other hand, as I told, a guy thinking up the whole evolution of an abstraction and knowing its every detail, in an instant, is a better model. Of course an instant, t=0 roughly, is different from being outside time.

      --
      ---- MISSING MISCELLANEOUS DATA SEGMENT --- [sigdash] trolololol
    119. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Science can't explain everything. In this particular case, the falling iPhones would not be explainable. However, since this did not in fact happen, it isn't evidence against the hypothesis that everything can be explained by known laws of physics, or currently unknown ones that do not greatly differ from the known ones in most situations.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    120. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      So, you say that physicists believe dark matter to be omniscient and good? As far as I've seen, they only believe it doesn't interact via the electromagnetic force, apparently don't think it interacts via the strong nuclear force, and are trying to find it interacting with something via the weak nuclear force.

      Dark matter was hypothesized when we couldn't find anywhere near all the mass in galaxies they'd have to have for us to understand their rotation. At that point, physicists and astronomers started connecting things scientifically. Quantum physicists found they couldn't explain the nature of the visible mass in the Universe, apparently (I haven't understood this one), and therefore that there was likely mass of a form they didn't know about. Astronomers found the Bullet Cluster, and used the observation of gravitational lensing to determine that the center of mass was not at the center of the mass of normal matter, suggesting dark matter of some sort. This is all in accordance with the scientific method: it's taking an idea and plugging it into other theories and observations, and trying to come up with further experiments or ways to look for more observations (like experiments to see if it can be detected with the weak nuclear force).

      So, it has been seen by its gravitational influence, and is called "dark" because it doesn't interact with light directly. Since it has gravity, and seems to hang around galaxies, it's apparently matter. They can't confirm or deny it via scientific proof, but that's because there is no such thing as scientific proof. Other theories have been suggested, but they don't currently appear to fit the evidence as well. The science here is hardly detailed, but what there is is sound.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    121. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      People search for proof of God, and in millenia of trying haven't come up with a sound one. There are very few experiments to determine God's nature. The ones I'm aware of are of the power of prayer in medicine, and don't seem to have come up with much (which is what I'd expect, considering the experimental protocols I've seen, even if praying to God did have a serious effect). Do you know of others?

      Pretty much all of our theology is from reports from people who claim they have experienced God directly, and their subsequent actions. I'm unaware of falsifiable theories or experiments in schools of divinity. If you know of any, please tell.

      BTW, you apparently don't believe in planets. There were, for example, irregularities in the orbit of Uranus. Astronomers created a planet to account for those observations, and eventually somebody saw it. With dark matter, astrophysicists hypothesized some form of matter (not a new force) that didn't interact by some of the usual ones, sort of like neutrinos, which are very hard to detect. Physicists are looking for ways to test this theory. Do you know of anybody planning experiments to determine how many gods there are, or to test the idea of the Trinity?

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    122. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by marcello_dl · · Score: 1

      > Given the fact that I use the same logic to make the (in)existence of any God irrelevant to my living, I would actually applaud those game of life beings for coming up to the same conclusion.

      They made a logic mistake nonetheless, they could be atheists without doing that.

      If the amount of potential interference of a God has any effect on what someone considers right or wrong, we have a problem.

      Fear of God means? fearing who is defined as a just judge? hm. if I fear a just judge then I admit I have done something unjust.

      Maybe Fear of God means acknowledging a possible supernatural entity? so if i commit a crime I cannot get away with it? Well I should not commit a crime nonetheless regardless of the consequence, if I want to honestly define myself as a just man.

      But indeed, Fear of God defined as taking into account a possible supernatural being gives another perspective to all my actions. The main perspective for an ideal good believer, an additional, potentially useful, perspective if you don't believe. And honest atheists end up thinking about god more than believers. Just avoid logic trainwrecks pls.

      It is true that some main religion says god has no use for evil people so they will get destroyed, but that is more like revealing a policy than blackmail, especially because permadeath is the default final state in the absence of a god anyway...

      > They can't observe me, and unless I start intervening
      You'd not be different from some hacker creature who got root, or some creature able to mess with other creatures sensors. There is no way to prove yourself.

      --
      ---- MISSING MISCELLANEOUS DATA SEGMENT --- [sigdash] trolololol
    123. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by countach44 · · Score: 1

      But, if it is the whole 'torturing forever' thing, first thing I'm doing when I get to heaven is I'm tugging on God's cape and saying, "hey, can we get those people out of there?" I have no idea how I'm supposed to party forever in heaven with Jesus if there's even one soul suffering in hell.

      I think what a theologian would argue is that God would respond "No, because they don't want to leave." Free will and all that, ya know?

    124. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by marcello_dl · · Score: 1

      > there is no evidence that he works like that.
      I guess not, one guy who promised good things in this life in exchange for worship is shown in matthew 4:8 and is definitely the other guy.

      Note also that Jesus doesn't question his ability to provide power and wealth. The problem is that is a bad deal. You basically end up living a life of maintenance of the system which gives you power, and in the end your inevitable demise from this plane of existence will be even more painful.

      --
      ---- MISSING MISCELLANEOUS DATA SEGMENT --- [sigdash] trolololol
    125. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by marcello_dl · · Score: 1

      I was saying the same thing to a "Scotsman" just the other day.
      As we all know no Scotsman was born in Cuba.
      Well here was this "Scotsman" born in Cuba.
      I said to him,"No true Scotsman is born in Cuba, that makes you a Cuban"
      He replied,"Well I was born in Cuba!"
      I said,"As I said,'No true Scotsman is born in Cuba'"

      --
      ---- MISSING MISCELLANEOUS DATA SEGMENT --- [sigdash] trolololol
    126. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by hawkfish · · Score: 1

      I'm never sure if I want there to be an afterlife or not. And I'm Catholic. I have faith in God, but I can never know.

      Really, what bothers me more than anything is the concept of hell. The exact nature of hell isn't really laid out in the Bible. It's described as being cut off from God and his goodness, permanently, which would be torment to us who were created by Him. But that doesn't tell you if it's really lakes of fire and demons with pitchforks (which was really just Dante's depiction that inspired everyone who came after), or if it's just some shitty shanty town...or if it's this reality we're in right now. But, if it is the whole 'torturing forever' thing, first thing I'm doing when I get to heaven is I'm tugging on God's cape and saying, "hey, can we get those people out of there?" I have no idea how I'm supposed to party forever in heaven with Jesus if there's even one soul suffering in hell.

      While I have faith in God, I also kinda hope I'm wrong and there's simply nothing after death, because I would rather have there be nothing for me than torture for anyone.

      This is an old question, and the best answer I know of is C. S Lewis' proposal in the Great Divorce that "the gates of Hell are locked from the inside".

      --
      You will not drink with us, but you would taste our steel? - Walter Matthau, The Pirates
    127. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by marcello_dl · · Score: 1

      > They are absolutely correct, there is no creator, he doesn't exist inside their universe.

      Correct for every creator of abstractions. You are not in the game of chess you are playing, yet no whatsoever move is done without you.

      Problem, you have used an "is" defined relatively to the game grid, part of the abstraction, and applied to the creator of the abstraction who is defined as being outside the game, so the creatures have still made a logic error. They applied a concept outside its scope. They would have been more correct, but at the same time more explicit in making their assumptions stand out, by saying: "then, provided that a concept like existence is translatable outside our plane of existence, let's call it meta-existence, the creator does not meta-exist".

      Of course the not-strictly-existing god is still potentially able to do all the things ever written in all religious books.

      --
      ---- MISSING MISCELLANEOUS DATA SEGMENT --- [sigdash] trolololol
    128. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by marcello_dl · · Score: 1

      > this life is quite shitty and yes, I could easily design a better and more just system

      You'd fail because you'd set a different arbitrary threshold for injustice, that's all.

      The only continuously just system I can conceive is a particle or an equally spaced grid of identical particles at the same mutual distance in all dimensions. Any perturbation would cause injustice. Why that particle has one less neighbour than the rest? UNJUST.

      The eventually just system on the other hand can be whatever, it all depends on how it ends up.

      --
      ---- MISSING MISCELLANEOUS DATA SEGMENT --- [sigdash] trolololol
    129. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by marcello_dl · · Score: 1

      Eternal is not necessarily "forever". Eternal means also without time, which is more in line with the dimension of a god. What if eternal damnation is final damnation, eternal salvation is final closeness to a god?

      But I am substituting a flawed model with another flawed one, let first the problem arise then you can file a complaint. :)

      --
      ---- MISSING MISCELLANEOUS DATA SEGMENT --- [sigdash] trolololol
    130. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by marcello_dl · · Score: 1

      Every level of a simulation can have an upper level... provided that "upper", "have", "level" are concepts definable there.

      Let's play my favorite one: "if this world needs a creator, the creator's world needs a creator".
      Nope. "creator" means guy who does something that result in a creation. Cause -> effect. Wait. Cause and effect need an unidirectional time axis. So you have to assume that one exists in the creator's world. True for the Game of life example. But the atheist's reasoning is that it goes into an infinite loop so you have to assume it in the creator's creator's world, and so on. Logic trainwreck, the "proof" is valid by making infinite assumptions, and fails for gods defined as eternal and creators of all things (so there is no time at all)

      --
      ---- MISSING MISCELLANEOUS DATA SEGMENT --- [sigdash] trolololol
    131. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by Atzanteol · · Score: 1

      I think the point is that what God considers to be "righteous" is entirely arbitrary and random like the whims of a mad-man. One minute he's saving the life of a man who would give his daughters to an angry mob to be gang-raped, the next he's torturing a guy for being just a little too self-centered, then he's flooding the entire Earth because 'fuck it.'

      --
      "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge"

      - Charles Darwin
    132. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by chris200x9 · · Score: 1

      I'm kinda actually freaked out by an afterlife in general. No matter how luxurious and great an afterlife is I can't help but think I'd want it to end sometime. Does anyone else think the thought of eternal life is a terrifying?

    133. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by BitZtream · · Score: 1

      Your Sundays would be better spent doing something productive or enjoying, rather than on some silly ceremony.

      Just because you haven't found the ceremonies useful doesn't mean others don't.

      While I'm no longer a 'religious' person, I was raised Catholic, was an Alter boy and all that. I found a great deal of wisdom in the sermons that I actually listened too. My father on the other hand, a devout Catholic all his life ... didn't listen at all and I often found it interesting that problems between us in my teenage years were addressed by the priest in his sermons. I was able to have a better relationship with my father even though my father wasn't paying attention. MOST people weren't paying attention and for those, yes, it was more or less a waste of time.

      The ceremony, when properly embraced, were very useful for getting my mind off what was outside and focused on what was being said during the sermon.

      I don't know what I believe any more, but I do know that I received much wisdom from a much older and well traveled priest than all but a handful of school teachers or books.

      You don't have to be a religious nut job to gain value from church services, you just have to be able to keep your mind open and pay attention. You don't have to believe it all. I don't. You just have to listen and consider the ideas put forth and take what good there is in them.

      You can be sure that there are religious nut jobs in pretty much every church service, but in my experience, I've found that there are religious nut jobs that worship science based on faith in what other people of told them that they've never verified themselves ... this is religion, not science. Obviously, you have to have some faith in the work of those before you or we'd never get anywhere, just retesting the same things over and over again, but thats a lot different.

      My rambling point is that you would do yourself a favor to not be so close minded, and listen and consider what people say for what it is.

      You do yourself a disservice (from what I can see in your slashdot posts) but writing off church services completely. They can have value if you bother to look for it and pay attention. Westbro Baptist church or whatever it was ... probably not the place you should be listening too I admit and agree with completely, but not everyone at church is a crazy ass nut job.

      Just try to be a little more open minded and a lot less condescending about those silly ceremonies.

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
    134. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by BitZtream · · Score: 1

      this life is quite shitty

      You either need to see a counselor or maybe have children, but first a counselor.

      People who make statements like that almost universally a clinically depressed.

      I really think you would do yourself a world of good to see someone.

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
    135. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by BitZtream · · Score: 1

      So do you include killer whales and dolphins, which have culture that is passed down using language for generations? They even have multiple languages depending on their primary geographic location. A pod in Antarctic waters speaks a different language than a pod in arctic waters. We're just now learning these things about them, but its clear as day now that we're paying attention.

      The only thing humans really have over them is writing, which allows us much greater accuracy in our culture and science as it doesn't get modified over time by word of mouth.

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
    136. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by BitZtream · · Score: 1

      'God' didn't write the story, a man did, hence the story involves it being okay to gang rape some guys daughters as you put it.

      You really shouldn't talk about stories you don't understand in the slightest. About the only thing god 'wrote' was the ten commandments, and even that story was ... written by man saying god did it.

      Its mind numbing that people like to try and tear religion apart with logic like you are, but you ignore the fact that parts you're picking on were tainted by man.

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
    137. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by GryMor · · Score: 1

      You may be interested in reading Permutation City, for an alternative... view on that hypothesis.

      --
      Realities just a bunch of bits.
    138. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by causality · · Score: 1

      Not if he gave them free willl, meaning even the ability to do things that were "outside" of the creator's will/temperament.

      Can you explain what that means within the context of "THE DETERMINISTIC APPLICATION OF RULES", please? Because otherwise you are making zero sense whatsoever.

      It makes perfect sense. What if your concept of absolute determinism as implied here is actually not absolute and has limitations? That's what he was saying, at least as I understood it. That would mean that some subset of everything would be steady, regular, unpredictable, and unsurprising. The rest wouldn't.

      An analogy could be a program that takes certain actions based on the output of a high-quality random number generator of some kind. The compiled program code itself is completely deterministic, behaving as designed each time it is run. The randomness adds an unpredictable element; it determines which of the predetermined (that is, available or achievable) outcomes actually ends up happening. You can't break fundamental rules of physics but plenty of other things could play out in myriad ways.

      --
      It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
    139. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by DiscountBorg(TM) · · Score: 1

      The atheist is pointing out that there are plenty of assumptions happening either way. You can't auto-magically assume that if one can exist in a simulation, the simulation stops where you want it to either. There's no basis to assume anything.

      Sounds to me like this is just recreating the ontological argument with a guy outside a simulation in place of a first cause, and well, I don't accept the ontological argument as vaild either.

      --
      "The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." George Bernard Shaw
    140. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by Barsteward · · Score: 1

      "god hypothesis" not "god theory". still waiting for the "proof" of a god or gods (depending on religious bias") to make it a theory (in the science sense)

      --
      "The hands that help are better far than lips that pray." - Robert Ingersoll (1833-1899)
    141. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by marcello_dl · · Score: 1

      >The atheist is pointing out that there are plenty of assumptions happening either way

      An alternative scenario disproving assumptions is not an alternative set of assumptions.
      - "I can buy you dinner with these 100 dollars"
      - "what if I want dinner on that 300 dollars restaurant?"
      - "why couldn't you choose a cheaper one?"
      see? it is a cop-out. Atheists say proof, religious men say belief, they have more experience and it shows.

      --
      ---- MISSING MISCELLANEOUS DATA SEGMENT --- [sigdash] trolololol
    142. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by Barsteward · · Score: 1

      " And I'm Catholic. I have faith in God" - as you seem to be asking yourself questions, ask yourself why you are a catholic and not a moslem, hindu etc etc .

      Is it because an accident of birth being born to catholic parents and you've suffered indoctrination (brainwashing) from birth through school?

      Have you asked yourself why you think your religion is more "true" than any other religion?

      Have you worked out who created the creator?

      Dante was a writer so why trust his "version" of hell? Unless you believe he's been there and come back, how would he know what its like?


      I think if you honestly answer those questions, you'd realise there is no heaven or hell or god and it's only in your mind.

      --
      "The hands that help are better far than lips that pray." - Robert Ingersoll (1833-1899)
    143. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by Barsteward · · Score: 1

      Well, the good people in Harry Potter set a far better moral and ethical example than the "good" god in the bible.

      "Like everything, some parts yes, some parts no" - you can't have contradictory good/bad bits for a so called "loving" god so it is clearly a crock of shit with one or two out of character good bits which you'll find in any novel.

      --
      "The hands that help are better far than lips that pray." - Robert Ingersoll (1833-1899)
    144. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by Barsteward · · Score: 1

      "No human could write out a literal blow-by-blow history of the Universe and no human could ever read such an accounting. Why not? At least you should try to give some reasons!"

      for it there to be a literal account, they'd have to be present to record the events as they happened. now unless i've got it wrong, god didn't create humans before he was supposed to have created the universe.

      i shake my head at all adults that believe in a god etc, in some ways i'm insulted in them thinking i'm as delusional as them.

      --
      "The hands that help are better far than lips that pray." - Robert Ingersoll (1833-1899)
    145. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by Barsteward · · Score: 1

      nicely put. but i don't think "need" a god.

      --
      "The hands that help are better far than lips that pray." - Robert Ingersoll (1833-1899)
    146. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by Barsteward · · Score: 1

      "until we've evolved past the need for it." - we are already passed this point

      --
      "The hands that help are better far than lips that pray." - Robert Ingersoll (1833-1899)
    147. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by DiscountBorg(TM) · · Score: 1

      There's no alternate scenario disproving anything because nothing falsifiable or assumable has been given other than a premise (eg: a simulated universe) with only the implications that make you happy cherry picked out, the rest excluded. The other assumption is as to what you think this person believes.

      In your own words "If you make implementation details about the initial condition of an universe proof that such an universe has no superior level.." and then you decide to break this rule as soon as it suits your fantasies. I was hoping for consistency--thank you for wasting my time with gobbledeygook and a genuinely terrible analogy that would have much better religious philosophers like Whitehead and Copleston hanging their heads in shame. At least Copleston attempted to defend the ontological argument on rational grounds rather than ludicrously comparing it to wanting to buy a more expensive meal at a restaurant.

      --
      "The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." George Bernard Shaw
    148. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      I'm glad you got something useful out of going to church, but you can't ignore the fact that all the ceremonies are in support of some very harmful ideas. Sin, homophobia, anti-contraception, anti-women nonsense.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    149. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by kheldan · · Score: 1

      Are you saying we've already evolved past this point, or that we're past the point where we can evolve past it and are going to self-destruct? Please clarify.

      --
      Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
    150. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by Richard+Kirk · · Score: 1

      There are 'Garden of Eden' patterns in Conway's game of life. These are patterns that could have no previous generation. Not sure what that does to your parable, though.

    151. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by 3seas · · Score: 1

      See: All That Is.... http://abstractionphysics.net/...

      So punch yourself in the face god.

    152. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by Atzanteol · · Score: 1

      'God' didn't write the story, a man did, hence the story involves it being okay to gang rape some guys daughters as you put it.

      I'm absolutely fine with saying the Bible is not the inspired word actually. I'm not sure why you wouldn't think I am. I'm a bit surprised you are...

      You really shouldn't talk about stories you don't understand in the slightest. About the only thing god 'wrote' was the ten commandments, and even that story was ... written by man saying god did it.

      See - this is what Christians do when presented with the unpleasant bits of the Bible. All of a sudden "it's man's word." But find parts you agree with and it becomes "God's word" again. I don't know your personal theology. But to me it sounds like we partially agree. The Bible was written by man and is therefore no more important in many regards than anything else - except as an historic text. It proves nothing divine.

      Its mind numbing that people like to try and tear religion apart with logic like you are, but you ignore the fact that parts you're picking on were tainted by man.

      How do you know this? And how do you know other parts aren't? What justification do you use for cherry-picking parts you like from those you don't?

      --
      "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge"

      - Charles Darwin
    153. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by tolkienfan · · Score: 1

      The fact is that by the evidence available to them, they would have no reason to assume a god. One would be neither explanatory, nor helpful to them. A god would be pointless. Unless, of course, the programmer takes part in the virtual world, changing things at will. But then they would have evidence, wouldn't they?

    154. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by tolkienfan · · Score: 1

      Except, a man with the face of Jesus who says odd things is not at all unusual. Whereas a piece of entirely indestructible toast would be impossible to ignore and doesn't fit any of our current physics.

    155. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by tolkienfan · · Score: 1

      Actually, in our technoligical terms, simulating quantum mechanics would require an insane amount of compute. Quite the opposite of what you're suggesting. One method would be the sum over histories, which means integrating over every possible way of getting to each possible outcome. Of course, if our universe is being simulated the stimulator wouldn't necessarily be constrained by our technology. But your argument was that the simulator was trying to save cycles, whereas classical mechanics is far easier to simulate.

    156. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by Kubla+Kahhhn! · · Score: 1

      Somebody should give him William Lane Craig's address.

    157. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by rtb61 · · Score: 1

      A more simple explanation. Life forces stability out of chaos, so that out of chaos 'everything, everywhere, every when', you get 'something, somewhere, some when' because, you can never have nothing, nowhere, no when. Of course that could mean that chaos 'everything, everywhere, every when', is just a dimension away and there is a whole universe of life keeping it that way, both expressed and unexpressed.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    158. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by yenic · · Score: 1

      I've always been surprised at people who give consideration to the simulation argument, but none to God. If we're living in a simulation (which I think is decently probable, relativity and wave/particle duality being emergent properties of programming kludges to save cycles), then this simulation was created by someone. That someone would be omnipotent and omniscient with regards to this reality, exists outside of this reality, and created this reality. That's the definition of God. God is the Programmer.

      Because the implication of a simulation is that 'god' is more Steve Wozniak than Yahweh. That's why.

      --
      http://www.accountkiller.com/en/delete-slashdot-account Stop visiting Slashdot.
    159. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by marcello_dl · · Score: 1

      > A god would be pointless. Unless, of course, the programmer takes part in the virtual world
      OK, let's assume this and follow it to the consequence, which is the absurd that the programmer does not exist at all. Since we are wrong we have made an error somewhere. Easy to spot.
      You cannot define the usefulness of a supernatural entity, especially from the inside, even if you have bet succesfully that the concept of "useful" exists at all in the programmer's world, and derive anything by it. If you did, you would have created a metagod called Usefulness and said whatever is supernatural must abide by it. You went beyond religion, you entered metareligion.

      If the creatures in the example had been more conservative they might have said it still cannot be ruled out that something supernatural exist, well, that was the entire point of the comment in the context of the story.

      --
      ---- MISSING MISCELLANEOUS DATA SEGMENT --- [sigdash] trolololol
    160. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by marcello_dl · · Score: 1

      well if the programmer made many of them they would be assumed as the normality and creatures' logic theories would take them into account. Because a theory that does not model their reality would be crazy.

      My theory is that if there are twelve socks in the drawer and i take two, twelve remains in the drawer.
      It is crazy here.
      What if I designed a universe with an "always 12 things in any container" patch? then logic principles would have to be built according to this or they would not model the truth.

      --
      ---- MISSING MISCELLANEOUS DATA SEGMENT --- [sigdash] trolololol
    161. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by marcello_dl · · Score: 1

      U mad.
      There is no premise. There is a counterexample. One guy said one cosmological theory with sound math behind it puts the words GAME OVER to the debate about god, so anybody who brings a god again into the discussion deserves to be punched.
      I made an example of a universe without intervention and freedom which is still not godless. I made another more general example in another comment where proving that the universe arises from complete nothingness AND that no other way for the universe to exist is rational, would be a great achievement for science but still not sufficient because the assumption that what is inconceivable for us is meta-inconceivable everywhere, even in the scope of universes' creation.

      A counterexample is not an assumption, it is the exploration of a particular case to see whether an assumption somebody else made has any worth. Picking a particular case assumes all other things do not happen, but that is not an assumption because we are not ending up with an implication. If you read my comment like it is a proof, it is your problem.

      Whitehead and Copleston sounds like a good name combination for alcohol related products BTW.

      --
      ---- MISSING MISCELLANEOUS DATA SEGMENT --- [sigdash] trolololol
    162. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by Barsteward · · Score: 1

      we've evolved past the point of needing a man made god figure, just some haven't caught up yet

      --
      "The hands that help are better far than lips that pray." - Robert Ingersoll (1833-1899)
    163. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by DiscountBorg(TM) · · Score: 1

      Ironically the only person here who keeps bringing up the word 'proof' is you, as well as initiating the use of the word 'disprove' because of course, disproving is completely different from proving.

      A counterexample points out implications in a previous argument and it is not exempt from being or having a premise. An argument has premises and a conclusion and therefore implications, otherwise you are communicating nothing. "Conway's game of life creatures became sentient." is a premise. "The universe is a simulation" is a stated premise with implications. It is still an argument with a premise and a conclusion, which you illustrate above. It is not magically exempt from relying on inherent assumptions more than any other form of human communication. If you think you are immune from assumptions, while others are making 'infinite assumptions' when they provide a counterexample, then we are at an impasse, because that is called 'typing left-handed'. And at that point continuing forward is 'beating' a dead horse, while typing left handed. Grandiose droning about 'believers' vs 'atheists' (which also contain assumptions and dichotomies) also fit nicely into that category.

      There's nothing wrong with typing left handed of course, other than that it is boring to watch. And not knowing some of the better religious philosophers from the last century who understand these problems better indicates that it's time to move on, watching dead horses getting beaten isn't my thing.

      --
      "The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." George Bernard Shaw
    164. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by Hentai · · Score: 1

      What if your concept of absolute determinism as implied here is actually not absolute and has limitations?

      Then it wouldn't be Conway's Game of Life, would it?

      --
      -Hentai [in vita non pacem est]
    165. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by tolkienfan · · Score: 1

      Then why didn't you simply say "a supernatural entity cannot be ruled out"? It's obvious on the face of it. It's fairly useless, though. Just because you can't rule it out doesn't mean you should assume it exists. Just as you can't rule out invisible pink unicorns. But suppose you do suppose there exists something that has no measurable or detectable effect on the universe. Then in what way can it be said to "exist"? And in what way does it help us to know it does exist?

    166. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by kheldan · · Score: 1

      I'd have to say, in my opinion, that the "some" you speak of is still the majority of the population. Even college-educated people with well above-average IQ's and an inherently questioning nature still indulge in religion, and you can readily find people who staunchly believe that not only is there a God, Satan, heaven, and hell, but that all science is the work of Satan intent on 'misleading the faithful'.

      --
      Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
    167. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by marcello_dl · · Score: 1

      > Ironically the only person here who keeps bringing up the word 'proof' is you

      And this is a problem, I guess. So if somebody says Dare X and I punch your face! is not implying that a rational discussion about X has been proven impossible. He might want to practice boxing. OK.

      About the rest of your post, the assumption vs. assumption is, I say it again, a mere arbitrary choice of words. There is one meaning of assumption vs. another one that can be called assumption but is quite more often called supposition.

      - "I borrow mom's car so I will be in time for my appointment"
      - "do not assume you will, mom never fills the tank much"
      - "well, you are assuming there is not enough gas in the tank, assumption vs. assumption"

      Now, if you are thinking that the initial implication borrowing car => arriving in time has not been rendered false, it is not strong anymore, we have a problem. If you think it has, it follows that we agree and the guy punching in the face is wrong as outlined in my very first comment.

      --
      ---- MISSING MISCELLANEOUS DATA SEGMENT --- [sigdash] trolololol
    168. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by marcello_dl · · Score: 1

      > while others are making 'infinite assumptions' when they provide a counterexample

      - "15 is a prime number"
      - "what about 3x5?"
      - "oh yes sry."
      The counterexample had the same scope of the assertion, else it's not even definable as example.

      In the case of "who created god" two words out of three are undefined, out of their scope. Creation is dependent on the concept of time, time is defined as a property of THIS universe. Thinking that "creating" can be applied to god is plainly a logic trainwreck. Do you use variables out of the scope where they are defined in your programs? Then why do you apply time to a hypothetical god's dimension? Are the conway's game creatures logical when arguing about how many cells make up their supposed god?

      Your counterexample sounds like:
      "15 is a prime number"
      "nope, no green number is prime"
      "WTF?"

      The assumption must be made infinite times, else:

      "who created god?"
      "pffft. a god, obviously"
      "and who created that other god?"
      "pffft. another god, obviously"
      "Ah, ok then."

      But the first time is already flawed.

      --
      ---- MISSING MISCELLANEOUS DATA SEGMENT --- [sigdash] trolololol
    169. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by fellip_nectar · · Score: 1

      Actually it is the word of God written down by man, and therefore, for all intents and purposes was written by God.

      Anonymous Coward dumb dumb dumb dumb, Anonymous Coward dumb!

      --
      Worst. Signature. Ever.
    170. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by meta-monkey · · Score: 1

      I understand that, but at the same time, Jesus called upon me to love my enemies. I don't see what that compassion and commandment stops at death.

      --
      We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
    171. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by meta-monkey · · Score: 1

      I was born a Catholic, became an atheist, and then became a Catholic again. Believe me, I have spent a long, long time questioning what I believe and why. Catholicism is a rational, internally consistent religion. If you start with the belief that 1) there is a God. 2) this is a fallen world. 3) Christ Jesus was the son of God, he existed and said and did the things he did for the redemption of this world, then Catholicism logically follows.

      Due to some very personal, private revelations, I believe in God, and I believe Jesus was his son and our savior. Hence, I'm Catholic and not a Muslim or a Buddhist.

      --
      We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
    172. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by meta-monkey · · Score: 1

      I don't know. So long as there are eternal new experiences, I'd be fine with eternal life. Since there is only one well from which all good things come, all things creative, and you'd be spending an eternity with Him, you would be living in eternity with the source of never-ending creative good.

      Then again, I say that now. Let's see how I feel a trillion trillion trillion years from now...

      --
      We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
    173. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by painandgreed · · Score: 1

      Of course not. If He wanted you to believe, God would have showed you his birth certificate.

      God tried to show his birth certificate, but scientists refused to look at it because it wasn't the long form.

    174. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by causality · · Score: 1

      What if your concept of absolute determinism as implied here is actually not absolute and has limitations?

      Then it wouldn't be Conway's Game of Life, would it?

      A person or two mentioned Conway's Game of Life. Unless I specifically say so, I am not binding myself to only mentioning that one thing and never moving on to any related ideas which happen to be outside its scope. And I didn't specifically say so. Therefore I see no value in pointing that out.

      --
      It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
    175. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by DexterIsADog · · Score: 1

      A simulation can employ stochastic, random, indeterminate processes...

      Doesn't stochastic mean random? Also, the way you used it, I think indeterminate does as well.

      Did you think it would be more convincing if you used three different words to mean the same thing?

    176. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by DexterIsADog · · Score: 1

      For example if someone produced an indestructible toast with the face of Jesus, or Mohammed, or Buddha, I and many other atheists would be lining up outside whichever church, mosque or temple we were lead to.

      Really? You are so completely lacking in imagination and devoid of intellectual rigor that you would give up your beliefs when exposed to a single anomaly?

      How in the world could you decide that an indestructible piece of toast with the face of Jesus on it meant that some god wanted you to go to church? Maybe He meant that you should *destroy* all churches. How would you know?

      All that aside, I'd *love* to see what happened if an utterly indestructible piece of toast appeared with a face on it, and a note, "Hey humans, here's a picture of Mohammed. Love, Allah." I would need BAGS of popcorn to enjoy that show!

    177. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by DexterIsADog · · Score: 1

      I've always seen it as just a different way of addressing the same problem. How can you really know what exists outside the universe? It could be God, it could be a programmer...

      Um, I understand why all the geeks on /. keep saying God or a *programmer*, but in nearly every instance in this world, the *programmer* is nothing but a couple of hands with a moderate amount of skill. If you're positing that we live in a simulation, then the being that really matters is the End User. Or perhaps the Executive Sponsor. They're the prime mover in the creation of the simulation. Not the code monkey.

    178. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by DexterIsADog · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure how good a Catholic you are. Part of the bliss of heaven is knowing that many people are suffering in hell.

      If you think that's not right, read the history of your own church.

    179. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by DexterIsADog · · Score: 1

      So we see evidence of a seeming Miraculous event in the universe. One that seems to defy logic. And you use it as a time to get angry at people who believe in God.

      You fundamentally misunderstand the article. If true, it PROVIDES a logical explanation for the spontaneous creation of the universe. Logic remains undefied. No miracle required.

      Those pesky, goddam words! They actually mean what they mean! Inconvenient, I know.

    180. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by DexterIsADog · · Score: 1

      Science can't explain everything. In this particular case, the falling iPhones would not be explainable.

      Sorry, I think you were standing up for science, but your lost your nerve at the last minute.

      How in the world can you say the falling iPhones would not be explainable? In that situation, people who use science would observe, make hypotheses, and attempt to test them. They might find an explanation other than "god did it". Why do you give up so easily?

    181. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by rasmusbr · · Score: 1

      Many of my current beliefs are based on an incredibly small amount of information, all things considered, so it would be foolish to hold on too them as if they were infallible.

      There are a few beliefs that one must hold on to, because letting go of them would lead to insanity. For example the belief that you are no different from others that look like you humans, that you are not special in any fundamental way. Another example would be the belief that change in the macroscopic world is a continuous and somewhat predictable process. If you let go of either of those beliefs you will clearly lose your mind.

    182. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by rasmusbr · · Score: 1

      Ha. That should read "...from others that look like you (humans)...".

    183. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by DexterIsADog · · Score: 1

      By your example, we have NO good example of how people should behave. All humans are critically flawed, and therefore we should not act in any way other than how we want. Selfishness is the end result of your argumentative point. There is no perfection in the human condition. Period.

      Yes, except... no. The GP did NOT say that. He pointed out a lot of horrible stories of human actions mandated by this fictional god character.

      There are plenty of moral people who treat other people humanely, give their time and money, and who believe in no gods.

      It's possible to get some reasonable rules of morality from a religion, but most of their books, like the Bible, are polluted with execrable stories of no moral value.

      Sorry to give you a thoughtful rejoinder to your thoughtless post. I'm afraid I've wasted your time, because there's no chance you'll actually think about it.

    184. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by DexterIsADog · · Score: 1

      Sorry, I'm not buying it: "...others that look like YOU HUMANS..."

      Your cover is blown! Return to the mothership and await further instructions.

    185. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by DiscountBorg(TM) · · Score: 1

      They are different things: stochastic processes are probabilistic, so yes, random, but not without limits rather applied in specific frameworks.. relevance: In a simulation, were one to model artificial intelligence, one could apply stochastic processes (eg stochastic neural networks).

      Indeterminacy can also mean incompleteness or 'unknown' (aka an indeterminate model is one where some thing remain unknown, therefore the model is.. duh, indeterminate). I am therefore making it clear that a simulation need not be deterministic, but by indeterminate and random I mean organized stochastic processes.

      The other reason I brought up indeterminacy was the classic 'free will problem' that says that if the universe is determinate, there is no such thing as free will, because you can predict everything in advance. If a simulation is determinate, there can be no free will in the simulation. So I bring up 'indeterminacy' not just in the above context, but also to indicate that the simulation can be all those things, and we still have a free will problem. Lastly the 'being' in the simulation does not know whether or not he is in a simulation. In a roundabout way the poster a step up from the one I am responding to almost brings up Descartes' dream argument... sans the cogito ergo sum, of course the simulation throws the whole cogito ergo sum in doubt anyway, perhaps... but I digress.

      Anyway I don't assume that the other poster knows what the word stochastic means either (you yourself think it just means 'random'), so between using those three descriptors, maybe something will be communicated, assuming the other poster isn't looking for quick and easy ways to be snide aka 'did you think it would be more convincing?'

      --
      "The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." George Bernard Shaw
    186. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by DiscountBorg(TM) · · Score: 1

      So God creates the game of life. God has the convenience of being free of time. Time itself is, by simple subtraction from the argument, irrelevant to creation, as God's act of creation is not bound by time. Time only operates within the simulation itself, and God does not create the existence of the -simulation itself- from -inside the simulation- anymore than the programmer creates the computer running -conway's game of life- from inside the simulation of conway's game of life. Time is irrelevant to the status of something as created. (As I understand it, the universe and time itself may be a projection by some models).

      The presupposition however in the "who created god" rebuttal above is 'creation requires an antecedent'. However claiming that creation implies an antecedent makes no sense if God is 'free' from time. It is therefore self-contradictory and we exclude it and move on.. to your ontological argument. To get there the first implication: immediately 'infinite assumptions' requiring a 'unidirectional time axis' is not a rebuttal--if creation doesn't rely on time, neither does existence.

      To be free of assumptions one must concede of every possibility all at once for or against, whether it be singular or infinite--and the outside of the simulation remains the infinite possibilities of the unknown. Now of course old-skool rationalism and the argument from ontology says 'Hey there, I've an answer to that... if humans can conceive of perfection, surely it must exist" which brings us to the analogy:

      A "prime number" is a mathematical proposition that is agreed upon. Since God as a metaphysical Western construct is not a definition that all agree on even within Western metaphysics, what falls outside of it is open to debate and cannot be presupposed.

      Let's assume we sit down and agree on a definition of God. Say we perhaps decide that God is a label we'll use to contain ALL those infinite possibilities of the unknown. That's about as close as we can get.

      Your argument makes an example of a universe where your definition of God is possible and if you read carefully you will see that never did I contest the analogy itself, I demonstrate that it exists in an infinite sea of possibilities. Let's wind it back to another one of your analogies..

      "I've a hundred dollars. What should I buy? This pair of shoes costs one hundred dollars. Because of that, I can buy shoes. Yes, I will buy shoes."

      "You decided so quickly! You can buy a lot more things than shoes if you wish."

      "Like what?"

      The moral of the story being, other possibilities have nothing to do with inventing assumptions out of thin air. They are quite simply, either accounted for, or not. I can declare there's only one way to go to the store on the other side of the city, I can draw a map to get there, call that the model, the 'definition', and when others find fifty other routes, I can say they're just 'making assumptions' because they aren't following my map. Rather than say, building on what's there from other perspectives. Fortunately for the most part, philosophy does the latter.

      --
      "The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." George Bernard Shaw
    187. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by marcello_dl · · Score: 1

      > So God creates the game of life. God has the convenience of being free of time.
      More than a convenience, it follows from being the creator: the time of an abstraction is never the same time of the plane where the abstraction is thought up in our universe, after all.
      Time, in a game of life can be defined as the discrete sequence of generations. How long it take to compute them is not relevant to the abstraction.
      Time in a game of chess can be defined as the sequence of moves: even if the rules refer to timeouts, time annotations are just metadata.

      I say can be defined because time is not in any of those abstractions.

      > The presupposition however in the "who created god" rebuttal above is 'creation requires an antecedent'.
      Not really, the rebuttal is "the term creation is undefined in the domain of the hypothetical god", "who created god" does not make sense. We can only define god, by exclusion. By attributing any property to the concept we already stepped out of the domain of logic. This is why I prefer staying in the universe and talk about abstractions we create, instead of the hypothetical domain in respect to which we are the abstraction.

      The fact that creation IN OUR UNIVERSE is impossible without unidirectional time is just a proof of the link between the concept "creation" and "time" in our universe, so that any attempt of redefining it in the dimension of a hypothetical god must define the equivalent of an unidirectional time axis in which he operates. Of course such definitions are equivalent to all the assertions made about objects outside this universe AKA religions.

      > However claiming that creation implies an antecedent makes no sense if God is 'free' from time.

      This is a narrower assertion. The term "creation" needs to be defined for an objection to be made.

      > It is therefore self-contradictory and we exclude it and move on..
      whatever.

      > to your ontological argument.

      Well, it is yours, you called it an ontological argument.
      To me it is an example that proves the OP claim as inconclusive.

      >To get there the first implication: immediately 'infinite assumptions' requiring a 'unidirectional time axis' is not a rebuttal--if creation doesn't rely on time, neither does existence.

      It is not a rebuttal, it is an automatic implication IMO, but of course if those talking about creators of creators have some interesting alternative models those can be discussed. Still belonging to the field of religions of course.

      (...)
      > Your argument makes an example of a universe where your definition of God is possible and if you read carefully you will see that never did I contest the analogy itself, I demonstrate that it exists in an
      infinite sea of possibilities.

      You can go further, after all there is no way to prove numbers or infinity has any meaning outside of this universe.

      Anyway you derived an argument from an example, the argument in your opinion would be "if the universe is an abstraction itself...". And that is indeed an assumption, a supposition.

      I'd rather say: "how the universe got formed according to a cosmological theory has no influence on it being an abstraction or not".
      Proof: just simulate the universe with the same rules of the universe as modeled by the cosmological theory. Does not matter how well. You end up with two universes. This one and the simulated one. They have the same rules, as far as the cosmological theory is concerned, but one is surely an abstraction and has a plane originating it. QED.
      If I had an argument it would rather be something like "the way the universe is formed might be in the future discovered as one without external intervention, beyond all doubts, and logically proven as the only possible one, or even proven as the only conceivable one. But that's empty circular reasoning, because the proofs have modeled the universe in terms of concepts which we have derived from our understanding of it. So all we have proved is that the universe is a closed system"
      But that's outside the topic.

      --
      ---- MISSING MISCELLANEOUS DATA SEGMENT --- [sigdash] trolololol
    188. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by Hentai · · Score: 1

      Okay, well, the root post of this discussion - the one I first responded to, said:

      Conway's game of life creatures became sentient.
      They discovered they are made of cells.
      They said "Look, THE INFINITESIMAL CELL is always created from NOTHING. If things happens FROM NOTHING, there is NO NEED FOR A CREATOR, so THERE IS NO CREATOR, and besides NOBODY ever witnessed something different THAN THE DETERMINISTIC APPLICATION OF RULES. How smart are we?"

      So the guy at the PC said to himself "Thank you for nothing, guys" and went making himself coffee.

      My response was to that scenario. If you're going to stop engaging with that scenario, do so explicitly, rather than trying to sneak in assumptions that are impossible in that scenario just to score points.

      --
      -Hentai [in vita non pacem est]
    189. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by DiscountBorg(TM) · · Score: 1

      I'll borrow your format.. out of temporal sequential order. (dry j/k)

      >Not really, the rebuttal is "the term creation is undefined in the domain of the hypothetical god", "who created god" does not make sense. We can only define god, by exclusion. By attributing any property to the concept we already stepped out of the domain of logic.

      Hmm... well my difficulty with that is that creation means that the universe above exists in a nested state in relation to God. Nesting and being nested is a property that is attributable to both God and universe, and it implies neither space nor time. An existential value is also very definitely a property. Defining existence by negation/exclusion.. I'll think on that.

      >Anyway you derived an argument from an example, the argument in your opinion would be "if the universe is an abstraction itself...". And that is indeed an assumption, a supposition.

      Perhaps, my argument would be 'if the universe is a simulation then forms of existence that -think they exist- are capable of being simulated. How does one place limits on it, address what existence even is, because if you can't ultimately define what it is, you can't define what it is not, either? How do you then arrive at that negation leading to what God is? If existence is capable of being simulated, for example, Descartes' dream argument where reality is ultimately unknowable, except that now Descartes' reply itself is called into question if a being may be real or simulated, does the simulation think it thinks or does it actually think? With all odds being equal what does this imply universally?' One can provide an example amongst endless examples, without any yardstick for measuring success. Is there such a yardstick?

      There were very little ground rules layed down in the intro posts in this thread.. And hence this exchange clarifies things because now there are less assumptions or suppositions to go around as there were ten posts up. Implication however =/= supposition rather it may indicate presupposition. Which is fine, everything presupposes something else, which is partially why one analyses implications.

      >If I had an argument it would rather be something like "the way the universe is formed might be in the future discovered as one without external intervention, beyond all doubts, and logically proven as the only possible one, or even proven as the only conceivable one. But that's empty circular reasoning, because the proofs have modeled the universe in terms of concepts which we have derived from our understanding of it. So all we have proved is that the universe is a closed system"

      Yes I completely agree in that nobody is going to ever have the ultimate answer, because such is beyond the capability of empiricism.. the age old problem is how one can arrive at any knowledge of what possibly exists outside that knowledge through reason and observation.. I wonder about the Wittgenstein quote 'what we cannot speak of, we must pass over in silence' ..which doesn't mean the effort isn't worthwhile, after all, I doubt we'll ever run out of things to learn about

      >But that's outside the topic.

      Hmm, this might be the root of our discussion. Can one by a process of negation from what exists arrive at what doesn't, from 'the inside'?

      >More than a convenience, it follows from being the creator: the time of an abstraction is never the same time of the plane where the abstraction is thought up in our universe, after all.

      >Time, in a game of life can be defined as the discrete sequence of generations. How long it take to compute them is not relevant to the abstraction.
      Time in a game of chess can be defined as the sequence of moves: even if the rules refer to timeouts, time annotations are just metadata.

      >The fact that creation IN OUR UNIVERSE is impossible without unidirectional time is just a proof of the link between the concept "creation" and "time" in our universe, so that any attempt of redefining it in the dimension of a hy

      --
      "The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." George Bernard Shaw
    190. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by DexterIsADog · · Score: 1

      Anyway I don't assume that the other poster knows what the word stochastic means either (you yourself think it just means 'random'), so between using those three descriptors, maybe something will be communicated, assuming the other poster isn't looking for quick and easy ways to be snide aka 'did you think it would be more convincing?'

      I don't believe it means *just* random, but I do still believe you piled up a word sandwich to be more convincing. :-)

    191. Re:If you make this a proof of God... by DiscountBorg(TM) · · Score: 1

      Hey, it's a big world, you're entitled to believe what you like, just like everyone else! Cheers.

      --
      "The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." George Bernard Shaw
  2. Mathemathical proof by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    There's also "mathematical proof" that a while hole can exist. Just try finding one.
     
    All kinds of wonders exist in theory. Few manifest in reality. I wouldn't be placing any money on this one either.

    1. Re:Mathemathical proof by michelcolman · · Score: 2

      Exactly. Maybe I'll believe it when I see an actual universe.

    2. Re:Mathemathical proof by TangoMargarine · · Score: 2

      while (true)
      {
            <-- right here
      }

      --
      Unity? Screw that: XFCE. Slashdot Beta? Screw that: SoylentNews. Australis? Screw that: Pale Moon. UX developers DIAF
    3. Re:Mathemathical proof by Oligonicella · · Score: 1

      Indeed. I recall listening to a theoretical mathematician claim that time travel was mathematically possible. Just take a disc of infinite mass and spin it at the speed of light, then travel around it in the opposite direction at the speed of light. Simple, right?

    4. Re:Mathemathical proof by nani+popoki · · Score: 1

      Yup. Simple. It's the engineering that's not so simple. :)

  3. Nothing by SupraTT+GOP · · Score: 2

    I would love to hear more about this nothing. I never knew something could be so fascinating and capable as nothing.

    1. Re:Nothing by jythie · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Well, adding 'zero' to the number system was a pretty big deal about nothing.

    2. Re:Nothing by mmell · · Score: 1
  4. Something from nothing? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Millions of college students writing empty 500-word essays void of meaning or substance have now been vindicated by the Universe.

    1. Re:Something from nothing? by PolygamousRanchKid+ · · Score: 1

      Millions of college students writing empty 500-word essays

      Students don't write anymore . . . they cut & paste from the Web . . .

      --
      Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
    2. Re:Something from nothing? by JustOK · · Score: 1

      Bullshit! They copy and paste.

      --
      rewriting history since 2109
    3. Re:Something from nothing? by Jason+Levine · · Score: 5, Funny

      they cut & paste from the Web

      So that's why huge amounts of Wikipedia have gone missing!

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
  5. Quantum fluctuations != nothing by MadTinfoilHatter · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is an abuse of the word "nothing", which is a universal negation "not anything". But quantum fluctuations in the quantum vacuum are something, and not nothing. The research might be interesting, but it does nothing for the question the philosopher is asking when he is wondering "Why there is somerthing rather than nothing?"

    1. Re:Quantum fluctuations != nothing by Ricyteach · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Physicists seem to have a curious definition of "nothing" (see Lawrence Krauss' book).

    2. Re:Quantum fluctuations != nothing by marcello_dl · · Score: 1

      - "why there is something rather than nothing?"
      - "because this can happen according to this newfangled model"
      - "cool, and what made the universe should follow this newfangled model?"
      - "because another newfangled proof makes anything else illogical"
      - "cool and what made the universe forcibly logical? all you did so far is to prove the universe can't help but follow the same logic that you derived from the behavior of the universe itself."
      The End.

      --
      ---- MISSING MISCELLANEOUS DATA SEGMENT --- [sigdash] trolololol
    3. Re:Quantum fluctuations != nothing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      I think most college students would agree that zero everywhere is a compelling solution for differential equations.

    4. Re:Quantum fluctuations != nothing by Grizzley9 · · Score: 1

      This is an abuse of the word "nothing", which is a universal negation "not anything". But quantum fluctuations in the quantum vacuum are something, and not nothing. The research might be interesting, but it does nothing for the question the philosopher is asking when he is wondering "Why there is somerthing rather than nothing?"

      Exactly. Lawrence Krauss and others are trying to redefine "nothing" for there own personal theories and world view (he's an atheist). I guess that's understandable from that viewpoint, but you can make a lot of interesting theories if you redefine terms to fit your own meaning.

    5. Re:Quantum fluctuations != nothing by DiscountBorg(TM) · · Score: 1

      Yes. Same goes for modeling the properties of 'nothing'.

      The claim in the headline is phrased that way presumably because it is attention-seeking 'scientific journalism' (web hits are good).

      --
      "The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." George Bernard Shaw
    6. Re:Quantum fluctuations != nothing by cyberchondriac · · Score: 1

      My thoughts exactly; Otherwise, mathematics proves you can get something from absolutely nothing - IOW, magic. . In the words of Grace Slick, logic and proportion have fallen sloppy dead. If this were truly the case, it'd be as supernatural as the God explanation.
      For there to be "fluctuations" there has to be something to actually fluctuate.

      --

      Look back up at my post, now look back down, you're on the Internet. Now look back up. I'm a signature.
    7. Re:Quantum fluctuations != nothing by E++99 · · Score: 1

      Precisely. The use of the word "nothing" is pure pseudoscience, uttered by who are more interested in scoring points against religion than saying anything of scientific relevance.

    8. Re:Quantum fluctuations != nothing by E++99 · · Score: 1

      Lawrence Krauss is an example of someone who would rather redefine "nothing" to mean "something" just so he can say "the universe came from nothing" to see how many people it annoys.

    9. Re:Quantum fluctuations != nothing by Tyler+Durden · · Score: 1

      - "cool and what made the universe forcibly logical? all you did so far is to prove the universe can't help but follow the same logic that you derived from the behavior of the universe itself."

      Well logic is a property of the universe only insofar as there are parts of the universe (like us) who use logic to try and understand the thing. Logic is something you have to obey in order to describe the universe because saying something illogical is equivalent to making a meaningless statement.

      --
      Happy people make bad consumers.
    10. Re:Quantum fluctuations != nothing by devent · · Score: 1

      How do you call no matter, no space and no time? Physicist (and me personally) are not really concerned what labels you give to a set of properties (or the lack of properties). Quantum physics shows that the philosophical nothing is not possible in nature, that means that any argument "Why there is somerthing rather than nothing?" is nonsensical. The answer is, because nothing is not possible in nature, therefore we have something and not nothing.

      You could also ask, why the ratio between the diameter and circumference of a perfect circle is Pi and not 5. Because in nature it is not possible to draw a circle that have any other ratio. Nature is the ultimate arbiter of what is possible and what is not possible. If nothingness is not possible, then nothingness will not exist.

      So science have answered the question "Why there is somerthing rather than nothing?". It's your problem if you don't like the answer.

      --
      http://www.mueller-public.de - My site http://www.anr-institute.com/ - Advanced Natural Research Institute
    11. Re:Quantum fluctuations != nothing by devent · · Score: 1

      What do you call no matter, no energy, no space and no time? I would think it's a pretty good nothing.

      --
      http://www.mueller-public.de - My site http://www.anr-institute.com/ - Advanced Natural Research Institute
    12. Re:Quantum fluctuations != nothing by Oligonicella · · Score: 2

      From Wiki, "fluctuation (or quantum fluctuation or vacuum fluctuation) is the temporary change in the amount of energy in a point in space,[1] as explained in Werner Heisenberg's uncertainty principle."

      You'll note that change is time, and energy and space are explicitly mentioned.

    13. Re:Quantum fluctuations != nothing by naasking · · Score: 1

      This is an abuse of the word "nothing", which is a universal negation "not anything". But quantum fluctuations in the quantum vacuum are something, and not nothing. The research might be interesting, but it does nothing for the question the philosopher is asking when he is wondering "Why there is somerthing rather than nothing?"

      Or perhaps this philosophical "nothing" is an ill-defined concept, and thus the question is meaningless.

    14. Re:Quantum fluctuations != nothing by Zalbik · · Score: 1

      Hurrah! You've discovered philosophical skepticism!

      The ancient Greeks would be proud.

    15. Re:Quantum fluctuations != nothing by arse+maker · · Score: 1

      Particles are excitations of fields. There are many fields that permeate the universe. Fields have a quantized state at every point, everywhere.
      Due to the uncertainty principle we cannot know the precise value of say the momentum of that point in space (if we want to define no momentum as nothing). Therefore there is no "nothing". This has all come from rigorous theory confirmed by experiment.

      Are these fields real? Do they exist everywhere? Does this hold outside our "universe" whatever that means, who knows, its just philosophy. All we know is what we can see by experiment.

    16. Re:Quantum fluctuations != nothing by sexconker · · Score: 1

      - "why there is something rather than nothing?"
      - "What do you mean by 'why'?"
      - "What does "you" mean?"

      Let's just cut to the chase.

      What?

    17. Re:Quantum fluctuations != nothing by ShoulderOfOrion · · Score: 1

      "If nobody thinks about it, that does not mean math does not exist."

      Ever stubbed your toe on a 4?

    18. Re:Quantum fluctuations != nothing by Barsteward · · Score: 1

      the way i see it is if there is an atom present then there is something even thought 99% of that atom is nothing... :o)

      --
      "The hands that help are better far than lips that pray." - Robert Ingersoll (1833-1899)
  6. Wait What??? by ZombieBraintrust · · Score: 2

    Heisenberg's uncertainty principle allows a small region of empty space to come into existence probabilistically due to quantum fluctuations

    I don't remember that in the principle when I took physics. I think they are skipping quite a few steps in the summary.

    1. Re:Wait What??? by beatle42 · · Score: 2

      Are you suggesting that the summary doesn't faithful reproduce every detail of the thing it's summarizing? If only we had a word to describe glossing over details to give people a sense of what something says, preferably in a fairly succinct way.

    2. Re:Wait What??? by LordLucless · · Score: 1

      No, he's suggesting the summary doesn't reproduce every *crucial* detail of the thing it's summarizing, making it a poor summary.

      --
      Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
    3. Re:Wait What??? by beatle42 · · Score: 1

      In what sense is it crucial to lay out the steps to get to each assertion when summarizing the proof? Further, the specific item in question is probably one where if you didn't know it, you're probably not going to be able to delve into the details of the proof anyway, so it seems to me to be a perfect candidate for summarizing here. This article/proof isn't about the Uncertainty principle, its implications are just enabling concepts/steps so summarizing them out of the way seems like the only sensible choice here, right? If you can't summarize the steps used in the proof, what can you summarize?

    4. Re:Wait What??? by ZombieBraintrust · · Score: 1
      I suggesting they are name dropping Heisenberg's uncertainty principle to make their claims sound more plausable. I bet the following statements are just as true/false.

      Newtons First Law of Motion allows a small region of empty space to come into existence probabilistically due to quantum fluctuations

      The Pythagorean Theorem allows a small region of empty space to come into existence probabilistically due to quantum fluctuations

    5. Re:Wait What??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Their paper's proof is basically: quantum fluctations can sponaneously create an expanding region of space-time consistent with what we observe in our universe.

      Heisenberg's uncertainty principle is responsible for quantum fluctuations. It is normally shown in the context of position and momentum, but it applies to any set of conjugate variables in a wave equation. In the case of quantum fluctations, energy and time.

      So TFS is accurate. No idea if the proof in TFA makes any sense though (I'm not sure how fluctuation of space-time can create that space-time in the first place, but somebody smarter than I has surely thought of that).

    6. Re:Wait What??? by Brett+Buck · · Score: 1

      The Book Of Genesis allows empty space to come into existence (etc).

    7. Re:Wait What??? by VortexCortex · · Score: 1

      Heisenberg's uncertainty principle allows a small region of empty space to come into existence probabilistically due to quantum fluctuations

      I don't remember that in the principle when I took physics. I think they are skipping quite a few steps in the summary.

      No no, it's quite simple really:

      "It it not improbable that everything suddenly sprang into existence from nothing?"

      "Well, yes, that's HIGHLY unlikely!"

      "So it is. Therefore, given an infinite metaverse this has certainly occurred. Thus, even if not the origin of this universe, it absolutely is the case in an infinite number of others, including an uncertain number which are indistinguishable from our own wherein we are having the same conversation. Q.E.D."

      This is all uncovered extensively in "Super Fragile Improbabilistic Theoreticalidocious". The improbable motive force of creation was first theorized by none other than the esteemed Douglas Adams himself.

  7. "Proof" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is not a "proof that the universe could have formed spontaneously from nothing". As is common in popular versions of science (and often even in peer-reviewed articles by scientists), there is a confusion between modeling reality and reality itself. All this proves is that the current most accurate (in terms of making predictions that we can measure) mathematical model of reality does not contradict the claim that the universe spawned from nothing (and of course the term "nothing" here is tenuous at best--it certainly isn't philosophical nothingness, because something did indeed exist, i.e. a state in which quantum fluctuations were occurring, such a state is not nothing, it is something... perhaps by "nothing" they mean a vacuum, but again, a vacuum is something since it is still governed by laws). And let's not forget that though QM has a lot of predictive power as a model, it is still just that, a model.

    1. Re:"Proof" by uberdilligaff · · Score: 4, Informative

      Extraordinarily well said. The mathematical model is NOT the actual physics. It is only a very useful abstraction that happens to fit very well with the observed state of the physical world today. To the extent that the mathematical model helps us understand the physical universe, it is quite useful. Extrapolating the model back to its mathematical origin (the zero point) does not "prove" that the universe exploded into existence as an infinitesimal point at time 0. It should raise suspicions that the model might not be quite such a good fit to the conditions that existed at that time as opposed to the conditions that prevail today, 14+ billion years later.

      --
      Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain. --Friederich Schiller
    2. Re:"Proof" by jythie · · Score: 1, Informative

      Which is why it is described a 'mathmatical proof', a domain where 'proof' has a different and specific usage then general english.

    3. Re:"Proof" by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

      A universe of actual physics where quantum potentials exist, even if nothing else, is a far cry from nothing.

      Perhaps the question is wrong: why does something exist instead of nothing? This presumes some utter nothingness is the default state from which things must change. Arguably, the brute fact something exists suggests, from causality, something must have always existed.

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    4. Re:"Proof" by Warbothong · · Score: 1

      Note that the words "could have" are used, which makes your point moot. They are not claiming that the Universe formed spontaneously from nothing, they are claiming that such claims cannot be refuted (yet). Or, alternatively, they're claiming that theories involving from-nothing Universes do not refute existing results; unlike, say, a theory which allows faster-than-light travel, which *would* refute existing results, and therefore have a much larger burden of proof (ie. it would have to be able to replace relativity).

    5. Re:"Proof" by mmell · · Score: 1

      Why'd you post as A/C? Your post was eloquent, elegant and well thought-out.

    6. Re:"Proof" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      That's precisely my point. Often, it seems, that we scientists prove something using math about our models (which is a proof in the technical sense), and then sloppily carry over that word proof to make a claim about reality, usually on an unwitting populace. The statement "a proof that the universe could have formed spontaneously from nothing", is a sloppy use of the word proof in the context of reality and is patently false. The technically correct statement, that I would not have taken issue with, would have read something like, "a proof that the Wheeler-DeWitt equation predicts the possible creation of a universe given a vacuum as an initial condition", or something more popularly accessible, "a proof that the current physical models allow for the creations of universes out of vacuums". Then they would be using the word "proof" correctly, in all its mathematical glory. But this sort of sloppy use of "proof" irks me because people start to believe all sorts of things are "proven" that are really just given strong evidence.

    7. Re:"Proof" by devent · · Score: 1

      Everything is a model, that is the problem of hard solipsism. But scientific models also make predictions.

      Laws are not "something", because laws do not exist physically. Natural laws are concepts of how nature behaves. Let us imagine an observer outside of nature and she tries to observe the part of nature that have no matter, no space and no time. That observer will see that this part of nature that was literally nothing spontaneously (out of nothing) pops out matter, space and time. Since time does not existed before the spontaneously generation of time, it does not matter how long the observer was sitting there to observe the spontaneous generation. Also, since space did not existed, it does not matter what part of nature the observer watched.

      Natural laws do not govern anything. Natural laws are descriptive laws, they describe how nature behaves. As such, the laws do not exist physically, they are an abstract concept. Nature behaves like nature behaves, with or without natural laws.

      --
      http://www.mueller-public.de - My site http://www.anr-institute.com/ - Advanced Natural Research Institute
    8. Re:"Proof" by DoofusOfDeath · · Score: 1

      Sorry, have to post to undo my accidental modding of the parent as "Redundant". I was going for "Insightful".

    9. Re:"Proof" by jythie · · Score: 1

      I would argue it is only 'sloopy' in that it gets picked up outside the field and reported on more general sites like slashdot. As with so many things, I feel it is science reporting that messes things up, not scientists talking amongst themselves.

    10. Re:"Proof" by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      And let's not forget that though QM has a lot of predictive power as a model, it is still just that, a model.

      Well, it has lots of predictive power as a model for small events at relatively low energy. We already know it doesn't make sense in high-energy situations and is incompatible with our current understanding of gravity, both of which are critical for something like the big bang where the total mass-energy of the entire known universe is packed into a spot smaller than an atom.

      That doesn't make this sort of exercise completely worthless, but we're a long way from saying that we're got cosmology figured out.

    11. Re:"Proof" by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Yes. Note that mathematics has nothing to do with reality (although parts such as geometry are inspired by observations of reality). However it turns out to be really useful in describing and explaining reality.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    12. Re:"Proof" by anubi · · Score: 1

      Well, maybe we started off with zero, and now we have lots of +things and -things... but if we add them all back up, we end up with the zero we started from?

      --
      "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]

    13. Re:"Proof" by uninformedLuddite · · Score: 1

      It's the pope

      --
      The new right fascists are bilingual. They speak English and Bullshit.
  8. "Something from Nothing" is not science by Ricyteach · · Score: 3, Interesting

    In "God and the Astronomers", agnostic Robert Jastrow chronicles the development of the Big Bang theory, and how for decades many physicists resisted it; not because of data, but because it meant the universe had a beginning, which was at odds with their worldview (“The Cosmos is all that is or was or ever will be." --Karl Sagan). They recognized that if there was ever truly NOTHING, that science would never be able to explain why there is SOMETHING. The question of origins is outside the reach of scientific inquiry. I wish the physicists would stop playing in the philosophical and theological sandbox.

    1. Re:"Something from Nothing" is not science by hermitdev · · Score: 1

      I think this is in part why so much attention is being spent on the big bang and what could have caused it. Currently, it's an impervious wall, but we want to know what's on the other side of it.

    2. Re:"Something from Nothing" is not science by mmell · · Score: 1
      The implication I've drawn from recent theories is that the Universe is finite in both age and size; but the "bulk" in which our Universe resides isn't.

      Not sure I understand why we even call it a Universe anymore - if it exists inside of something else, isn't "Universe" a misnomer?

    3. Re:"Something from Nothing" is not science by meta-monkey · · Score: 1

      What were the contents of your web browser before you started the program?

      --
      We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
    4. Re:"Something from Nothing" is not science by microbox · · Score: 1

      The question of origins is outside the reach of scientific inquiry. I wish the physicists would stop playing in the philosophical and theological sandbox.

      Pffft, just a small amount of anxiety of the mechanization of the soul? If you had a time-machine, would you go live in the world before Descartes? Remember, disease used to be caused by evil spirits, and mental illness is possession by deamons!!! Now, get science out of the philosophical and theological sandbox!!!

      --

      Like all pain, suffering is a signal that something isn't right
    5. Re:"Something from Nothing" is not science by nani+popoki · · Score: 1

      The heartbleed bug could inform you of that, perhaps.

    6. Re:"Something from Nothing" is not science by Trailer+Trash · · Score: 1

      In "God and the Astronomers", agnostic Robert Jastrow chronicles the development of the Big Bang theory, and how for decades many physicists resisted it; not because of data, but because it meant the universe had a beginning, which was at odds with their worldview (“The Cosmos is all that is or was or ever will be." --Karl Sagan). They recognized that if there was ever truly NOTHING, that science would never be able to explain why there is SOMETHING.

      The question of origins is outside the reach of scientific inquiry. I wish the physicists would stop playing in the philosophical and theological sandbox.

      If you read Hawking's "Brief History of Time" he is literally driven nuts by the fact that the Big Bang points to a creator and ends up coming up with an absurd hypothesis that would alleviate the necessity of a big bang. Color me unimpressed.

      The fact that anything exists is, in and of itself, strange. Even an empty vacuum is something.

    7. Re:"Something from Nothing" is not science by Ricyteach · · Score: 1

      Turns out, the cause of disease can be seen under a microscope. We found a way to observe the previously unobservable. Awesome. But when physicists start talking about "something from nothing", they have jettisoned scientific inquiry. At least you can try to observe evil spirits and deamons (which is how the real cause of disease was discovered). After all, that's all science is: observing, and applying those observations. But you can't observe nothing. Ergo, you are in the wrong sandbox, kiddo.

    8. Re:"Something from Nothing" is not science by Ricyteach · · Score: 1

      But but but... MULTIVERSE!

    9. Re:"Something from Nothing" is not science by Ricyteach · · Score: 1

      Then it isn't nothing. Nothing means nothing. Get another word.

    10. Re:"Something from Nothing" is not science by Boronx · · Score: 2

      "I wish the physicists would stop playing in the philosophical and theological sandbox."

      Of course you do. Theologians have already had their sandbox reduced by scientists, and you wouldn't want it to shrink any more than it already has.

    11. Re:"Something from Nothing" is not science by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Alternatively, he comes up with a likely hypothesis, and you simply can't accept that the Universe can be different from how you imagine it.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    12. Re:"Something from Nothing" is not science by Ricyteach · · Score: 1

      Drop by your local university's philosophy department or seminary. The box is the same size it's always been. Maybe physicists have box envy? Well the ones fixated on something-from-nothing nonsense, anyway. Yes, I realize they don't actually mean Nothing; yet they insist on using the word (Lawrence Krauss even wrote a book about it). Sandbox envy.

    13. Re:"Something from Nothing" is not science by Boronx · · Score: 1

      Of course physicists have box envy. They've been stealing sand boxes since the beginning but they're always taking more. BTW, pretty much everything was the domain of theology until science gets in on the action, then the theologians end up looking petty and unimaginative once we find out what's really going on.

      Why are you getting all stitched up about the word? It's not like theologians have any good theory about how something could come from nothing, or even if that's a question that needs answering.

    14. Re:"Something from Nothing" is not science by Trailer+Trash · · Score: 1

      No he doesn't - he sounds like a creation "scientist" explaining how the earth really *could* be only 6000 years old. Yes, the Big Bang might be an incorrect hypothesis, but I'm not going to let a belief or disbelief in a deity dictate my feelings about the subject.

    15. Re:"Something from Nothing" is not science by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Okay, I read it a long time ago, and don't remember what you're talking about. Could you be more specific? (Bear in mind that I trust Hawking's ideas about physics more than yours, and I've noticed already that lots of physics looks really odd by everyday standards.)

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    16. Re:"Something from Nothing" is not science by Ricyteach · · Score: 1

      I'm getting stitched up because I value science (and scientists) as much as I value theology and religion, and don't want them (physicists) saying ridiculous things that enable people in my religious community to say "See? Scientists have an agenda! Why should I listen to them?" It drives me crazy. Both theology AND science (and philosophy as well) are fields that have valuable things to say to me and to everyone. Anyone who totally excludes one or the other is an idiot. There is only ONE truth. There isn't scientific truth over here, and theological truth over there. There is just Truth, and to exclude any avenue for attaining knowledge- whether an atheist rejecting theology or a fundamentalist rejecting science- is hubristic and simple minded.

    17. Re:"Something from Nothing" is not science by Boronx · · Score: 1

      religion as a store of knowledge is extremely valuable. Theology as an intellectual pursuit is barren and answers none of the questions that science has so far failed to answer. This bickering over the word "nothing" is exactly the kind of nonsense that theologians get caught up in. The word itself is just a label. A good scientist understands that and no doubt the original papers don't use that word except as summary or shorthand for a more specific idea.

    18. Re:"Something from Nothing" is not science by Trailer+Trash · · Score: 1

      Read pages 126-140 of "Brief History of Time". I'm not talking about physics and as such you should trust Hawking's ideas more than mine. The problem here is that Hawking isn't talking about physics, either. He's bothered by the fact that the Big Bang points to God, at least to him. So he goes off to crazyville trying to get rid of the Big Bang. It's really kind of sad to watch, and it's not science.

      As I said, and I quote, "I'm not going to let a belief or disbelief in a deity dictate my feelings about the subject." That makes me more of a scientist than Hawking who sadly allows his belief in the lack of a deity to cloud his thinking in the scientific realm.

    19. Re:"Something from Nothing" is not science by Ricyteach · · Score: 1

      "Theology as an intellectual pursuit is barren..." And the arrogance- and foolishness- of that position is no better than that of a fundamentalist who ignores data which proves the Earth is more than 10,000 years old. There is little to no difference between the two. I'm certain you're right that original papers don't use that word, but it seems that anytime they actually say or write something they think might be heard and digested by people outside of academia, many otherwise respectable scientists (Hawking, Krauss) fall into the trap of saying things that discredit the dispassionate approach they claim to have (by virtue of calling themselves a scientist). It is audacious, bumptious shortsightedness of the worst kind.

  9. Quantum Fluctuation by fadethepolice · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Since the equations only express the properties of the universe, what exaclty did the quantum fluctuation occur in? This seems to be more of a confirmation of M-theory than that the universe came from nothing. What is the formula for the state directly before the fluctuation ocurred? It seems that state would be necessary to calculate what the fluctuation occurred IN. That would, to me, be more of a discovery.

  10. So "nothing" has quantum fluctuations by TrollstonButterbeans · · Score: 4, Interesting

    So "nothing" has quantum fluctuations.

    I have zero apples, which one will produce an apple seed to grow a tree.

    Note: The article itself doesn't imply what the summary says, but the summary here makes the article seem like nonsense.

    --
    Priest: "Universe from nothing, no laws of physics, sped up time"+ huge discrepancies. Creationism? No. Big Bang Theory
    1. Re:So "nothing" has quantum fluctuations by naasking · · Score: 2

      I have zero apples, which one will produce an apple seed to grow a tree.

      While extremely unlikely, given a long enough timeline an apple seed will spontaneously form due to quantum fluctuations. So the zeroth apple will produce that seed.

    2. Re:So "nothing" has quantum fluctuations by devent · · Score: 1

      I have zero apples, which one will produce an apple seed to grow a tree.

      Yes, nature is fascinating. Only because we can't grasp such supposedly impossible behaviour with our tiny mammalian brains, it does not mean that it can't be.

      The article itself doesn't imply what the summary says, but the summary here makes the article seem like nonsense.

      Not really, quantum mechanics behave that way. Nothing -> matter, space and time. Your analogy with zero apples is good.

      --
      http://www.mueller-public.de - My site http://www.anr-institute.com/ - Advanced Natural Research Institute
    3. Re:So "nothing" has quantum fluctuations by TangoMargarine · · Score: 1

      So do we not count "quantum vibrations" or "superstrings" or "magical unicorn farts" as matter?

      --
      Unity? Screw that: XFCE. Slashdot Beta? Screw that: SoylentNews. Australis? Screw that: Pale Moon. UX developers DIAF
    4. Re:So "nothing" has quantum fluctuations by Zorpheus · · Score: 1

      I know that the vacuum has quantum fluctuations, but they imply that the space itself is formed in these fluctuations.

    5. Re:So "nothing" has quantum fluctuations by skywire · · Score: 1

      You're saying that the "standard layman" does not use a common English word in its everyday sense -- in short, that he is not only not technically trained, but is an idiot.

      --
      Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
    6. Re:So "nothing" has quantum fluctuations by leonardluen · · Score: 1

      really what they are saying is that a universe could arise from fluctuations in a quantum vacuum.

      which is basically the lowest known energy state of anything. and is about as close to "nothing" as we have ever found in nature.

      .

    7. Re:So "nothing" has quantum fluctuations by Jmc23 · · Score: 1
      Well, everybody knows that!

      You just have to separate the lower fluctuations from the higher fluctuations.

      --
      Don't complain about syntax, grammar, or spelling. There is no.hell like input on android.
  11. We still have turtles all the way down. by EmperorOfCanada · · Score: 2

    In what was there fluctuations? This might seem like a glib question but, I actually am interested in the answer. Their theory seems to cover the idea of where all the stuff (including space) came from. But where did the "thing" that was fluctuating come from? And no I am not implying religion.

    1. Re:We still have turtles all the way down. by jhumkey · · Score: 1

      I started with that question after reading the article . . . Quantum Fluctuations "of what", caused by what, in what? . . .

      All the article seems to accomplish, is put one level (of turtle) below the big bang, and say QF in nothing caused the big bang.
      We still need descriptions of the level below the "QF in nothing".
      (Even if its not "nothing" . . . where then, did the "not nothing" come from?)

      Nothing wrong with that (knowing what we know as the model now, and seeking to add a lower level). As another poster said . . . at one point "atom" meant the smallest indivisible thing. Now . . . we know there are 2? 3? levels below that.

      We live with the model we have . . . until we can see the next lower level down.
      To my simple mind . . . God is at the lowest level. Each discovery of "another turtle" . . . just pushes God one more down.
      Though, I'm not offended by the attempt of some other posters to "beam energy into free space and bring particles into existence". They're trying to answer the "where is the bottom?" by saying there isn't one. Its a circular loop. I'm still stuck with the problem . . . who/what started the loop?

      If I discover the cure for Liver Cancer in 5 years, and time travel back to now and hand myself the answer, then in 5 years when time travel is available I send the same answer back . . . who did the hard research/testing work to discover the cure? It seems to paradoxically fall in the same class as "perpetual motion machines" were I got something (the cure for Liver Cancer) for nothing (no research effort, just time travel).
      That's what I find problematic with the attempt to "loop" the universe and displace religion/God . . . it seems to be evading the question, not attempting to answer it. But, I understand, many disagree (like Mr. Hawking apparently) and are happy to live with the "self creating loop from nowhere".

      --
      No, I don't remember your name. But the memory mapped screen on a TRS80 from 1977 is from 15360 to 16383 if that helps.
  12. It's not proof of God by MikeRT · · Score: 4, Interesting

    But it is proof that disproving Aquinas's argument that no physical phenomena can arise ex nihilo is currently beyond the capacity of science, mathematics and philosophy.

    1. Re:It's not proof of God by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      But it doesn't really sound like it is "from nothing". Their proof starts with "quantum potential" and "fluctuations in the metastable false vacuum". Now, I have no idea what a metastable false vacuum is, but it doesn't sound like nothing. How could it actually be nothing if the equations of quantum mechanics govern its behavior and it is continually pooping out these space-time bubbles?

  13. So there could be many universes.?1?1 by cod3r_ · · Score: 1

    MIND FUCKING BLOWN what happens when our universe collides with another universe.. Whats in the empty space that our universe is expanding to? WHERE IS FLIGHT 370!>!>!>!>!

    1. Re:So there could be many universes.?1?1 by shikaisi · · Score: 1

      Whats in the empty space that our universe is expanding to? WHERE IS FLIGHT 370!>!>!>!>!

      Never mind Flight MH370, where are my car keys?

      --
      No left turn unstoned.
  14. Mathematics is a language, not a science by gurps_npc · · Score: 2
    That is, I could just as easily write down:

    E=M*(C cubed)

    But that doesn't mean it is 'right'. The correct formula is E= M*(C squared) and it doesn't matter how many times I write any other formula.

    As such, math can describe ANY internally consistent theory. (and even some internally inconsistent ones). It is only through practical testing that we can determine if the math is right.

    --
    excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
    1. Re:Mathematics is a language, not a science by Cassini2 · · Score: 1

      As I recall, many aspects of modern physics fit into the "mathematically inconsistent" category. The equations - as written - are not consistent with one another. Additionally, the equations don't agree with our understanding of reality, and know one knows why. As a result, many mathematician's look at the stuff that happens in physics and engineering as somewhat dubious. Physicists also recognize this problem, and for them, an important theoretical challenge is to generate mathamatical frameworks that both describe reality and are internally consistent (which is hard).

      One of my mentors, a statistician, pointed out that if the mathematics yield useful predictions about the problem you are working on - then run with it. Almost all modern sceince and engineering is based on the "it yields effective predictions, therefore we use it" principle. I still find it odd that a statistician was the realist in the group ...

    2. Re:Mathematics is a language, not a science by arse+maker · · Score: 1

      Well, I would phrase it that, maths is internally consistent logical numeric operations.

      Correct maths is always correct, does it reflect nature? Sure only experiment can tell.

      This gets to the philosophy of maths, is maths "real". I think the best way I can think of it is.. if the universe worked by non internally consistant means it would not be stable, if the forces between particles didnt follow consistent logic, I cant see how they could exist. So it parallels math in having that constraint.

  15. Not possible by gweihir · · Score: 2

    Or rather not applicable. Physics is not accessible to mathematics, Mathematics is just a tool physics uses on formalized abstractions of physics. These abstractions _always_ introduce inaccuracies, and hence no mathematical proof can ever apply to physics directly or absolutely. Mathematics can just not bridge these transformation steps. That is the tasks of Physics.

    --
    Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    1. Re:Not possible by naasking · · Score: 1

      Physics is not accessible to mathematics, Mathematics is just a tool physics uses on formalized abstractions of physics.

      Underlying this is an assumption that reality is not itself mathematical. This assumption isn't justified.

      Furthermore, physics can indeed drive mathematics. For instance, see the invention of quantum logic and generalized probability theory.

    2. Re:Not possible by teslar · · Score: 1

      Physics is not accessible to mathematics

      This is very much still an active topic of discussion, actually, and certainly not as settled or clear-cut as you seem to think. You can start with Wigner's essay.

      And just to provide the opposite viewpoint to yours, some people will of course argue that physical reality is mathematical.

    3. Re:Not possible by gweihir · · Score: 1

      You just failed "Scientific Theory 101".

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    4. Re:Not possible by gweihir · · Score: 1

      There are always a few crackpots around that do not get it. Mathematics does not apply to reality. It cannot even be done in physical reality. The only place it can be done in is human imagination.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    5. Re:Not possible by sexconker · · Score: 1

      Physics is not accessible to mathematics, Mathematics is just a tool physics uses on formalized abstractions of physics.

      Underlying this is an assumption that reality is not itself mathematical. This assumption isn't justified.

      Furthermore, physics can indeed drive mathematics. For instance, see the invention of quantum logic and generalized probability theory.

      The assumption that the Universe is mathematical isn't justified.
      The fact that math is physical is justified. All math we do exists in the Universe, whether we're using math to describe the Universe (what we can see and know of it) or whether we're wanking about with ridiculous shit like string theory.
      No amount of math can fully describe the Universe as no entity within a system can know the full nature of the system with certainty.

      Math is a tool used to describe patterns.
      Physics is a model describing the Universe
      The Universe is everything
      The Turtle is standing on another Turtle

    6. Re:Not possible by naasking · · Score: 1

      Good thing you're not a professor in the philosophy of science.

    7. Re:Not possible by naasking · · Score: 1

      I suggest you read up on the philosophy of mathematics. Math is not what you think it is. I also suggest you read up on the Mathematical Universe hypothesis.

    8. Re:Not possible by Boronx · · Score: 1

      "Underlying this is an assumption that reality is not itself mathematical. This assumption isn't justified."

      Sure there is. There is no model that describes what happens. We do have models that describe precisely how bad our models are. Current theory is that we can't do any better than that.

      OTOH, I disagree with the grandparent. Physics has informed a lot of new Math, and Math has informed a lot of new physics.

    9. Re:Not possible by naasking · · Score: 1

      Sure there is. There is no model that describes what happens

      That isn't justification that such a model does not exist, which is what the original claim was, it's simply justification that we do not currently know of such a model.

      Current theory is that we can't do any better than that.

      I'm not sure what you mean by this. I'm not aware of any impossibility proof demonstrating that no model can accurately predict reality, there are simply limits on precision, like the contextuality of QM implying the uncertainty principle.

    10. Re:Not possible by Boronx · · Score: 1

      A probability wave is an actual physical thing, and not just an abstraction that describes our inability to make precise measurements. It's the very nature of the wave that the events caused by it are unpredictable.

    11. Re:Not possible by naasking · · Score: 1

      A probability wave is an actual physical thing, and not just an abstraction that describes our inability to make precise measurements. It's the very nature of the wave that the events caused by it are unpredictable.

      That isn't absolutely certain. For instance, there's always superdeterminism which is something that 't Hooft is currently working on, ie. deriving quantum mechanics from deterministic cellular automota.

    12. Re:Not possible by Jmc23 · · Score: 1

      That's where the failed physicists end up right?

      --
      Don't complain about syntax, grammar, or spelling. There is no.hell like input on android.
    13. Re:Not possible by Jmc23 · · Score: 1
      Just because YOU think math is something else, doesn't mean it is.

      Why tell a person to research a disputed controversial thing when you could just tell them why you think the Kool-aid tastes so great?

      --
      Don't complain about syntax, grammar, or spelling. There is no.hell like input on android.
  16. Spontaneous self-generation? by CrustyMustard · · Score: 2

    I don't see how it would be possible for a quantum fluctuation to create the universe it is a part of, but maybe I just don't understand the theory and principles involved. Wouldn't we have to verify that our mathematics work and quantum fluctuations exist outside our own universe before a proof like this would be valid?

  17. So 1 + -1 = 0 by Viol8 · · Score: 1

    However do what you like to zero - you're not getting any other value from it unless you have another value -ie something non zero - to begin with. This theory does nothing to explain how something arose from nothing.

  18. As If by medv4380 · · Score: 1

    When I see a null self initialize into something there will be proof. Until then it is a git semantic proof that is easily exposed as shenanigans with language.

    1. Re:As If by Jmc23 · · Score: 1

      It's not in the spec, so what happens is implementation defined.

      --
      Don't complain about syntax, grammar, or spelling. There is no.hell like input on android.
  19. Quantum Fluctuations of Nothing? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Quantum fluctuations of spacetime, sure. But with Nothing, there is not spacetime. There isn't even time. Without time, there is no change. Without change, there is no "Nothing Then Something" (because there is no time thus no Then). Unless there's meta-time from a supernatural universe, but then that would mean the universe didn't spring into being from nothing. An infinite "crunch and bang" cycle I can wrap my head around. "Ever-present God did it" I can wrap my head around. "Nothing then something" is a logical impossibility.

    1. Re:Quantum Fluctuations of Nothing? by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Ah, proof by inability to understand.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  20. Interestingly enough... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    This position actually makes relatively more sense. Honestly, physics research is like a recursive function that keeps going back, back, back. You can't throw your hands up in the air and say "it magically came from nothing" until you've reached a proper terminus where there *is* nothing (quantum fluctuations aren't nothing)..

    Keep in mind that his is only a mathematical proof that our current hubble volume coming out of quantum fluctuations, not a proof for where quantum fluctuations come from.

    1. Re:Interestingly enough... by bhagwad · · Score: 3, Informative

      At some point it becomes illogical to ask "what caused it" or "what comes before". Both these questions postulate the prior existence of time. If time itself came into being, then asking "what caused this" or "what happened before this" is meaningless since both questions imply a time based causation which could not have happened in the absence of time itself.

    2. Re:Interestingly enough... by Oligonicella · · Score: 2

      *If* is always foremost. *If* time came into being. Math describes reality, it does not a thing more in terms of reality. Just because one can imagine something and then craft math to describe said imagining in no way means what is described is real. That's a big part of the recursion mentioned, many math people seem to believe that the math creates the reality.

    3. Re:Interestingly enough... by countach · · Score: 1

      Well, this whole paper says a quantum fluctuation caused the big bang. By your logic a cause requires time, but without the big bang there can be no time, therefore this paper is bunk. Is that your position?

    4. Re:Interestingly enough... by bhagwad · · Score: 1

      I have no idea. I'm merely saying that asking "before" for an event which created time itself is meaningless.

    5. Re:Interestingly enough... by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      Assuming "Time" is a single dimension. We assume it, because that is what we can observe from our limited viewpoint. Time may not be single dimension.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
  21. Its not nothing by Viol8 · · Score: 1

    Quantum fluctuations are something. The question should actually be "Where do quantum fluctuations come from" to which a physicist will probably reply - "they just happen". Which is feck all use to anyone as an answer. Might just as well say the universe just happened or the God/The Sphagetti Monster created it.

    If physicists don't have a proper answer to "Why is there something rather than nothing" then they should stop pretending they do by the deceit of changing the definition of "nothing".

    1. Re:Its not nothing by meta-monkey · · Score: 1

      There's a lot of things in physics, that when you get down deep enough the only answer we've got is "it just does."

      Tell me, how does the force of electric attraction or repulsion work in general? We can describe the way the force works. Opposite charges attract, like charges repel. We can calculate the magnitude of these forces. But when you really get right down to it, why this force exists and what creates this motive force from apparently nothing is unexplained. We can describe the force, saying "it's like a rubber band!" But rubber bands only work because the atoms in the band are held together by the electric forces between them, so that's just a circular explanation.

      At some point, you just have to say "this is how the universe works" until you can find a better explanation.

      --
      We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
    2. Re:Its not nothing by Mr.+Slippery · · Score: 1

      If physicists don't have a proper answer to "Why is there something rather than nothing" then they should stop pretending they do by the deceit of changing the definition of "nothing".

      The issue of whether anyone has a "proper" answer -- indeed, if there is a "proper" answer -- turns on the ambiguity of the word "why". We use that word in three very different senses.

      When we ask, "why is the sky blue?", we are asking "by what lower-level phenomena is the sky seen as blue?" We want a causal sequence of explanations that is static (or very short duration) in time and varies over the reductionist depth of phenomena: photons are scattered by air molecules, some of them enter your eye, trigger certain receptors in the retina, this is processed by the nervous system causing a sensation that your brain has been culturally trained to associate with the symbol "blue".

      When we ask, "why did the Challenger explode?", we are asking "by what causal chain of events, one after the other, did the Challenger explode?" We want a causal sequence of explanations that extends over time and is fairly static in reductionist depth: politics prompted a launch in cold weather, cold weather caused the O-ring to warp, the warped O-ring caused hot gas to leak, boom. We want a time sequence that (in this instance) stays at the level of everyday experience, doesn't go in to the quantum mechanics of the O-ring or the grand historical narrative of humanity's existence.

      When we ask, "why did Alice go the dance with Bob?", we are asking "what motives and values prompted Alice's decision?" We want an explanation of the desires and actions of intelligent agents, not a story about the atoms that make up her body.

      When we ask "why is there something rather than nothing?", some people are looking for "God did it" -- the third type of answer. But there can't be an intelligent agent before there is something, so the question in that sense is contradictory and meaningless.

      Some people are looking for the second type of answer: they want some cosmological causal chain of events as to how space and energy came to be. But any causal chain of events would be a thing, not nothing, so again the question in that sense is contradictory and meaningless.

      What we have here is a proposed answer in the first sense, lower-level phenomena.

      If you're looking for cause-over-time or motive as an answer to "why is there something rather than nothing", you've fallen into a linguistic trap around the ambiguity of the word "why".

      --
      Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
      You cannot wash away blood with blood
    3. Re:Its not nothing by Viol8 · · Score: 1

      "you've fallen into a linguistic trap around the ambiguity of the word "why"."

      No, sorry, you're not going to get away with using the "its semantics" argument. The question why is there something rather than nothing is a fundamental concept that owes nothing to language.

      As I pointed out in another post - you can create nothing out of something , ie 1 + -1 = 0, but you can't do anything with that zero on its own unless you introduce a non zero term - eg a quantum fluctuation.

    4. Re:Its not nothing by meerling · · Score: 1

      Don't forget that science is always trying to figure out what those unexplained things are, but sometimes it is a difficult path that suffers progress by those diligent and extraordinary thinkers that grope blindly into the unknown time and time again until they finally pull back a clue of unique data or conceptualization.

      It's kind of like trying to read the mailing address on a parcel when you happen to be sealed inside the aforementioned parcel.

    5. Re:Its not nothing by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      How about "Why is it wrong to murder people?"? That's clearly a "why" question, and it equally clearly cannot be answered by science, since there is no science of morality. (You can scientifically study people's moral attitudes, behavior, philosophies, etc., but not morality itself.) "Why is there something rather than nothing?" is possibly answerable by science, but I'm not at all confident in that. Can you give me a potentially falsifiable hypothesis? Can you give me any reason for why "no particular reason" couldn't be the answer?

      From another point of view, there's the "cogito ergo sum" viewpoint, a very weak anthropic principle, which says that there has to be something instead of nothing to ask the question in the first place.

      BTW, suppose you call 0 a number. Then you define the successor of a number N as the set that contains the number N and nothing else. You can see that if successors of numbers are equal the numbers are equal, and so on to make the Peano postulates, and from that derive integers and arithmetic. I haven't introduced any term except zero, and I've got all the nonnegative integers.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    6. Re:Its not nothing by Viol8 · · Score: 1

      " I haven't introduced any term except zero, and I've got all the nonnegative integers."

      Yes you have - you introduced the concept of a set. A set in this mathematical scenario is something.

      Back to the drawing board for you.

    7. Re:Its not nothing by meta-monkey · · Score: 1

      I was thinking of this interview with Richard Feynman where the man asks him how magnets work. And the answer is...they just do. That's how the universe works.

      Perhaps one day we'll understand better. Perhaps not. Even so, we still won't know why, because science doesn't ask and can't answer that question.

      And don't misunderstand me and think that I'm suggesting "we don't know, therefore God." I believe in God, but my God exists outside of time and space. He does not occupy the space between the things we can understand, growing ever smaller as we learn. Instead, the more we understand, the better we know Him. To understand the workings of the universe is to know God, and God wants us to know Him.

      --
      We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
    8. Re:Its not nothing by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      You will notice that unadorned 1s are also unable to make up integers. You used a unary minus and a binary plus sign to make zero. I demonstrated how to derive integers from zero; to do that, I have to have some rules of derivation. Basic set theory is as fundamental as it gets.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  22. Quantum fluctuations by mwvdlee · · Score: 1

    I have some basic understanding on a non-physicist level of what quantum physics is all about, the weirdness that is involved with it and how it scales to the world I can see, but this I simply cannot fathom.

    How can quantum fluctuations occur in absolute nothingness?

    --
    Slashdot social media options: AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, Jabber and Mobile Text. Why no MySpace?
    1. Re:Quantum Fluctuations by DangerousDriver · · Score: 1

      Also, where did these quantum fluctuations occur? If there was no space, no matter or energy and no time prior to the creation of our (and other universe)s where is the "place" that these physical laws hold true?

  23. What is a "proof" that something "could" happen? by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 1

    Mathematical Proof That the Cosmos Could Have Formed Spontaneously From Nothing

    What does this mean, really? Either a thing did or didn't happen. What does it mean to have proved that it could have happened?

    Is there room for someone to come along later and prove that it couldn't have happened for reasons not yet understood?

    What if we discover the universe didn't form spontaneously from nothing? Would that disprove this "proof"?

    Car analogy time: if I see a car at a certain place, and I measure its speed at 60mph, then I could claim to have "proven" that it could have been 60 miles away an hour ago - based on the little evidence I have. But if I then find out it can't go any faster than 60mph, and the hood is cold, that might prove that it couldn't have been 60 miles away an hour ago.

    So, is this just a badly-worded headline, or am I just very very tired?

    Hint: it could be both.

    --
    systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
  24. Probability by kimvette · · Score: 1

    More likely it's the result of the infinite improbability drive. I just hope that the Universe and Arthur Dent never meet.

    --
    The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
  25. Get something about math proofs. by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 4, Interesting
    Math proofs are based on a set of axioms or starting assumptions. All the mathematical proofs are simply inevitable consequences of the axioms, that is all. Every mathematical proofs say, "this is consistent with your original assumptions". That is all, nothing more, nothing less.

    I remember reading about an European mathematician who set out to prove that Euclidean geometry was the only possible geometry. He came up with lemma after lemma, conjecture after conjecture, but no matter how hard he tried he could not prove non-Euclidean geometry could not exist. All those proofs, lemmas and work on conjectures formed the mainstay of the branch of non-Eucledian Geometry.

    So all the math proof tells you is, if you make a set of assumptions, cosmos could be created spontaneously.

    --
    sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
    1. Re:Get something about math proofs. by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 1

      Math proofs are based on a set of axioms or starting assumptions. All the mathematical proofs are simply inevitable consequences of the axioms, that is all. Every mathematical proofs say, "this is consistent with your original assumptions". That is all, nothing more, nothing less.

      I remember reading about an European mathematician who set out to prove that Euclidean geometry was the only possible geometry. He came up with lemma after lemma, conjecture after conjecture, but no matter how hard he tried he could not prove non-Euclidean geometry could not exist. All those proofs, lemmas and work on conjectures formed the mainstay of the branch of non-Eucledian Geometry.

      So all the math proof tells you is, if you make a set of assumptions, cosmos could be created spontaneously.

      Another option is that their is a flaw. For instance, for the cosmos to be created spontaneously, would mean that something had to exist before the big bang for there to be any quantum fluctuations to spontaneously create the cosmos. If something did indeed exist prior to the big bang, then time, definitely could not have started at the big bang or there would be no before the big bang for the quantum fluctuations to have occurred. If time existed before the big bang, then everything we know about time is suspect. If time is suspect, so are theories about space-time. If theories about space-time are suspect, then so is quantum theory. And finally, if quantum theory is suspect, anything based on it that showed the universe could spontaneously come into existence is also suspect.

      So, it would seem, that if everything we know has led to this conclusion about the universe coming into existence spontaneously, then, if that is true, it invalidates everything we know.

    2. Re:Get something about math proofs. by DoofusOfDeath · · Score: 1

      My college geometry course was probably the most enjoyable of all my math courses, and in particular the part about non-Euclidean geometry. It was a wonderful period of growth for me, where I was forced on using rigorous logic without any hope of appealing to physical-world analogs / intuitions for my inspiration.

    3. Re:Get something about math proofs. by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      And finally, if quantum theory is suspect, anything based on it that showed the universe could spontaneously come into existence is also suspect.

      We already know that quantum theory isn't the whole picture - it has no explanation of gravity. It is a great theory in the same way that Newton's laws of motion was a great theory. Ultimately it is going to need some tweaking once we figure out how to actually perform the experiments that determine how it breaks down.

    4. Re:Get something about math proofs. by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 1

      And finally, if quantum theory is suspect, anything based on it that showed the universe could spontaneously come into existence is also suspect.

      We already know that quantum theory isn't the whole picture - it has no explanation of gravity. It is a great theory in the same way that Newton's laws of motion was a great theory. Ultimately it is going to need some tweaking once we figure out how to actually perform the experiments that determine how it breaks down.

      It's not just that it's not the whole picture, but quantum theory and the big bang are mutually exclusive. The problem is that we have evidence for both, which is cosmologist say there must have been different laws of physics governing the very early universe than now. That could be true, but then requires an explanation of how and why the old laws changed to the new laws. And if those laws changed, then how do we know the calculations used for this "proof", which are all based on the current laws, are valid at the point of the start of the universe?

    5. Re:Get something about math proofs. by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      I don't think anybody really thinks the "laws of the universe changed" per se. Most would probably suspect that there is a more fundamental set of laws that work under both conditions, but we don't understand what they are. These laws would reduce to the understood laws in the conditions they are well-behaved in today, just as how Newtonian physics works the same as relativity when you're not talking about high speeds/mass/etc.

    6. Re:Get something about math proofs. by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 1

      I don't think anybody really thinks the "laws of the universe changed" per se. Most would probably suspect that there is a more fundamental set of laws that work under both conditions, but we don't understand what they are. These laws would reduce to the understood laws in the conditions they are well-behaved in today, just as how Newtonian physics works the same as relativity when you're not talking about high speeds/mass/etc.

      Whether the laws changed or today's laws are imperfect, we are left with the same outcome. The math in the calculations is based on today's physics. If those laws changed, between the start of the universe and now, then they can't be used to show how the universe came into existence. On the other hand, if the laws didn't changed, but today's laws, or what we know about them are imperfect, then likewise, they can't be used to show that the universe came into existence spontaneously.

      We have vast evidence of an expanding universe vie the Big Bang. We also have vast evidence of quantum theory, we explains greatly the motion of particles. The problem is, in a very over-simplified way, that at the moment of the Big Bang, when the entire universe was very, very, very tiny, what we know of quantum theory wouldn't allow for an expanding universe like we have it today.

      If what we know about quantum theory, precludes an expanding universe like we have today, then how can we use quantum theory to show that the expanding universe we have today came about spontaneously?

      (Before people post about it, I know the above is vastly over simplified and as such, there are all sorts of holes that can be poked through it. Regardless, though, if one goes through the real issues (non-simplified), the problem still exists and will continue until our understanding of quantum theory advances to the point that it can be used to describe the universe we have today.)

    7. Re:Get something about math proofs. by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      You are of course correct. You can't really cite this as "proof" of anything. It is perhaps interesting theoretically, but you can't build an airtight argument on top of a porous foundation.

  26. Re:Is there any conclusive proof of God? by jythie · · Score: 1

    Wow.. that piece really stretches things and makes some rather impressive leaps. Much of it seems to to simply be 'the bible is true, when science hits an unknown, it is proof of god' and then goes into the standard 'there must be an intelligent designer because things need to be intelligently designed' reasoning followed up by 'if you read the bible just right and compare history we already know, look how prophetic it is!'

  27. circular reasoning by SebNukem · · Score: 1

    Since the necessary tools, maths, logic, and brains used to prove that the universe can exist out of nothing are solely part of that same universe, and even important blocks making it, isn't the whole thing an example of circular reasoning?

  28. wrong by Charliemopps · · Score: 1

    Heisenberg's uncertainty principle allows a small region of empty space to come into existence probabilistically due to quantum fluctuations.

    Ok, so this entire premise is refuted by this one statement.
    This statement assumes there was "Space" prior to the big bang. There was neither time or space prior to the big bang... in fact, there WAS NO PRIOR TO THE BIG BANG. It would be like arguing that "This triangle rolled across the floor while it was a circle"

    Secondly, it also assumes that the universes physical laws like quantum mechanics still applied prior to the big bang. There were no universal laws, and once again there is no "Prior to the big bang"

    The only way this would work is if the Big Bang were not the beginning of all time and space, and we have mountains of observational evidence that already proves this.

    1. Re:wrong by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 1

      Heisenberg's uncertainty principle allows a small region of empty space to come into existence probabilistically due to quantum fluctuations.

      Ok, so this entire premise is refuted by this one statement.
      This statement assumes there was "Space" prior to the big bang. There was neither time or space prior to the big bang... in fact, there WAS NO PRIOR TO THE BIG BANG. It would be like arguing that "This triangle rolled across the floor while it was a circle"

      Secondly, it also assumes that the universes physical laws like quantum mechanics still applied prior to the big bang. There were no universal laws, and once again there is no "Prior to the big bang"

      The only way this would work is if the Big Bang were not the beginning of all time and space, and we have mountains of observational evidence that already proves this.

      You bring up excellent points and if I had mod-points, I'd mod you up. As Parmenides said, "ex nihilo nihil fit." Nothing can come from nothing.

    2. Re:wrong by EvilSS · · Score: 1

      Relevant XKCD: http://www.xkcd.com/1352/

      --
      I browse on +1 so AC's need not respond, I won't see it.
    3. Re:wrong by TangoMargarine · · Score: 1

      Well yes, if we accept the premise that time and space didn't exist before the Big Bang, it's rather difficult to prove that time and space existed before the Big Bang.

      I would assume that it's far less cut-and-dried than "we 'KNOW' that there was no before the Big Bang."

      --
      Unity? Screw that: XFCE. Slashdot Beta? Screw that: SoylentNews. Australis? Screw that: Pale Moon. UX developers DIAF
  29. How often? by Drethon · · Score: 1

    So is it likely that we will shortly have a new universe start forming in the middle of our current one?

    1. Re:How often? by seven+of+five · · Score: 2

      Mod parent up. I was just thinking the same thing. What if a new universe exploded tomorrow from your neighbor's dog?

    2. Re:How often? by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 1

      my neighbor's dog is quite loud, so I'm not sure I would notice the difference.

      after the initial explosion, though, at least it would be quieter around here and I would not have to be so careful where I walk.

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    3. Re:How often? by countach · · Score: 1

      Just as long as its the neighbour's dog and not mine, because I'm tired of complaints about my dog.

  30. Huh? by gstoddart · · Score: 1

    Heisenberg's uncertainty principle allows a small region of empty space to come into existence probabilistically due to quantum fluctuations.

    I'm afraid my poor little brain is ill equipped to understand this.

    So, if there was 'nothing', WTF is there to be 'quantum fluctuating'?

    A fluctuation of nothing produced everything?

    Sometimes (okay, often) ... when people speak of quantum mechanics I have no idea of WTF they're saying or how it translates into reality.

    --
    Lost at C:>. Found at C.
  31. Did They Really? by organgtool · · Score: 1

    I was about to blame Slashdot for a bad headline when I realized that the article actually states that this mathematical proof offers evidence that the universe could have spontaneously formed from nothing. But if the universe really did form spontaneously from nothing, wouldn't that violate the law of conservation of mass and energy?

    After reading the article, it sounds like they have a good theory about what happened during the Big Bang, but I didn't see anything in the article that offered proof that something came from nothing.

    1. Re:Did They Really? by Marginal+Coward · · Score: 2

      After reading the article, it sounds like they have a good theory about what happened during the Big Bang, but I didn't see anything in the article that offered proof that something came from nothing.

      Proof likely will appear from nowhere sometime in the next few billion years.

    2. Re:Did They Really? by TangoMargarine · · Score: 1

      if the universe really did form spontaneously from nothing, wouldn't that violate the law of conservation of mass and energy?

      Wouldn't that be a law that would only apply to the universe once it already exists? E.g., why wouldn't you be able to go faster than the speed of light if time and space don't exist? ;-)

      *sound of physicists throwing heavy objects at me*

      --
      Unity? Screw that: XFCE. Slashdot Beta? Screw that: SoylentNews. Australis? Screw that: Pale Moon. UX developers DIAF
    3. Re:Did They Really? by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Lots of physical laws are statistical in nature. Boyle's Law of gas temperature, volume, and pressure works because a whole lot of little things, operating at a level where "pressure" is meaningless, behave in a statistically predictable manner. The Second Law of Thermodynamics works similarly: there's no reason why a pan of water can't freeze at one end and boil at another because the particle energies happen to line up that way, but that's so incredibly improbable that we're never going to observe it. The law of conservation of matter and energy isn't absolute, and we know this because we can detect the effects of "virtual" particles that pop into existence and then out of existence so fast we can't notice them directly. What if it's statistical?

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  32. That's a valid theory . . . by mmell · · Score: 1
    I believe at least one quantum theory suggests that the universe is contstantly disappearing and re-forming. It only appears to form a continuous existence because the most probably universe in any given instant tends to be almost identical to the one which came before it.

    (I've probably described this very poorly - IANAC, IANAP, IANAL, etc.)

    1. Re:That's a valid theory . . . by Oligonicella · · Score: 1

      It is a theory only in terms of parlor conversation, in terms of Theory or hypothesis, not so much. In terms of reality, no support whatsoever.

  33. Re:Learn your math by ultranova · · Score: 1

    Thats an exercise on futility; the conditional probability of an event happening given that it happened is always 1.

    Isn't the whole point of quantum physics that the condition - "something has happened" - is in itself a fractional number? For example, a photon does not go through one slit or another, but both, and these histories interfere with each other to produce the interference pattern on the wall.

    Which, of course, is the answer to the qproblem about apparent causality violations in quantum mechanics: no, observing one of entangled particles does not send a FTL signal to the other paricle; any point in spacetime where you can compare observations of both is by necessity causally linked to both, and these pasts interfere with each other to promote those combinations where purely random chance caused a seeming linkage over those where it didn't.

    Not that you can ever prove an event happened even in classical physics. No matter your observations, you can never know if you have all the relevant facts; "Last Thursdayism" is undisprovable, even in principle.

    --

    Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

  34. Quantum Fluctuations by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Can someone please explain what the hell a quantum fluctuation actually is? It seems like every so often an article like this comes out claiming to have solved some age old problem in physics and the explanation is always 'because quantum fluctuations'. "Where did the universe come from, what caused the big bang?" "Quantum fluctuations." "I don't see how..." "I said quantum fluctuations sir." "But..." "Quantum fluctuations, sir!"

  35. Re:Is there any conclusive proof of God? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Honestly, a lot of science is reaching. The science in this article is reaching. It cannot be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt no matter how hard they try. I cannot prove God to you, but personally, I'm betting on God.

    Very quickly...

    Take, say, a bagel, for instance. The bagel didn't come out of nowhere. The bagel didn't create itself. The logical conclusion is the bagel was created. Extrapolate that out to the vastness of the universe. There is a creator.

  36. Ex nihilo nihil fit by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    This proof, while impressive, does not proof that the cosmos could have formed spontaneously. It only shows that the big bang was not the start of the cosmos and something early and yet unknown pre-existed it. The old axiom that "ex nihilo nihil fit" (nothing can come from nothing), still holds, because if there were nothing, no matter, no energy, no anything, then there couldn't be quantum fluctuations to spontaneously form the universe.

    As such, the big bang must not have been the start of universe, but probably very, very, very close to the start of the universe.

    1. Re:Ex nihilo nihil fit by Pino+Grigio · · Score: 1

      There's a difference between philosophical nothing and physics nothing from what I understand. Physics nothing seems to have a property, "can fluctuate in a quantum mechanical manner". But philosophical nothing has no properties. Of course one could argue philosophical nothing has the single property "has no properties", which would make it something of a paradox.

      I've got a headache.

    2. Re:Ex nihilo nihil fit by Arkh89 · · Score: 1

      That's why I prefer the Mathematical "nothing" : the empty set has all properties.

    3. Re:Ex nihilo nihil fit by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 1

      There's a difference between philosophical nothing and physics nothing from what I understand. Physics nothing seems to have a property, "can fluctuate in a quantum mechanical manner". But philosophical nothing has no properties. Of course one could argue philosophical nothing has the single property "has no properties", which would make it something of a paradox.

      I've got a headache.

      Physics nothing isn't really nothing, then. How can "nothing" fluctuate? It can't. Prior to the start of the universe, there could only be nothing, the absence of everything and no quantum fluctuations. It's just like the expanding universe, what is it expending into? Nothing, and that, too, is a real nothing, no quantum fluctuations. If cosmologists needs to define something as nothing for the math to work, then the math really doesn't work, or they haven't found the start of the big bang, but just approached it more closely.

    4. Re:Ex nihilo nihil fit by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 1

      That's why I prefer the Mathematical "nothing" : the empty set has all properties.

      But did it prior to the beginning of the universe? It would be easy to answer yes to that question thinking that math is math, however we already know that at the big bang, the laws of physics that we know didn't exist yet, so why would set theory?

    5. Re:Ex nihilo nihil fit by canadiannomad · · Score: 1

      When I picture it I always imagine the universe expands and cools to the point where there is uniform energy everywhere, but given enough time an infinitely improbable event occurs and all/a large percent of the energy spontaneously appears in a single point and explodes. Cycle repeats.
      Where did the energy come from in the first place? I don't think we will ever know.

      --
      Hmm, the humour and sarcasm seem to have been be lost on you.
  37. math proof by leeqiushui · · Score: 1

    All the math proof tells you is, if you make a set of assumptions, cosmos could be created spontaneously.

  38. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  39. Shit happens by approachingZero+ · · Score: 1

    I won't even pretend I read the damn thing. However, I reserve my right to have an emotional opinion.

    --
    'I don't know what it's called. I just know the sound it makes, when it takes a man's life.' ~ Four Leaf Tayback
  40. Re:What is a "proof" that something "could" happen by EvilSS · · Score: 1

    More relevant car analogy: If you have the specs for a car (hp, torque, weight, drag coefficients, etc.) that had not yet been built you could prove mathematically, without it ever actually happening or the car even existing at the time except on paper, whether or not the car could accelerate to 60 mph.

    What they are saying here is that, according to the math, the universe could have formed this way. The math does not prevent it so it's a valid theoretical possibility. This does not mean that another model won't show that it could have formed in a different way as well. After all we have three perfectly mathematically valid geometries yet we know only one can be the true geometry of the physical universe.

    Now, it would take a lot more than a mathematical model to say that it did form that way.

    --
    I browse on +1 so AC's need not respond, I won't see it.
  41. Re:Wait for it... by TangoMargarine · · Score: 1

    What other possible enjoyment could we find in life? :-)

    Hail Eris.

    --
    Unity? Screw that: XFCE. Slashdot Beta? Screw that: SoylentNews. Australis? Screw that: Pale Moon. UX developers DIAF
  42. Re:What is a "proof" that something "could" happen by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 1

    More relevant car analogy: If you have the specs for a car (hp, torque, weight, drag coefficients, etc.) that had not yet been built you could prove mathematically, without it ever actually happening or the car even existing at the time except on paper, whether or not the car could accelerate to 60 mph.

    Not sure about this. They're claiming a proof for the possibility of a particular mechanism behind an event which has already happened.

    It still feels like there's an oxymoron* here somewhere...

    (*don't!)

    What they are saying here is that, according to the math, the universe could have formed this way.

    Right, but what if someone comes along later with more math that proves it couldn't have formed this way? What would that do to this "proof"?

    Maybe this is the bit that counts:

    The proof is developed within a mathematical framework known as the Wheeler-DeWitt equation.

    Proving something as possible within a certain framework isn't the same as proving it's possible, full stop. Right?

    --
    systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
  43. Re:What is a "proof" that something "could" happen by TangoMargarine · · Score: 1

    We're waiting for you to tell us why it's a bad analogy. Take your time.

    --
    Unity? Screw that: XFCE. Slashdot Beta? Screw that: SoylentNews. Australis? Screw that: Pale Moon. UX developers DIAF
  44. Always was, always will be... by kolbe · · Score: 1

    One of the most difficult topics of the human condition in my opinion is time, time itself.

    Humanity seems to believe that "time" exists in a relative manner to itself and thus time is inherently flawed at any level objective analysis of events throughout the existence of the Universe. When we look at what we know to have happened, we want to draw some conclusion relating to what caused it. The Big Bang in this example appears to have happened and we ask why? This is where our interpretation of time, which in turn can relate to "nothing" becomes skewed. If we avoid self-destruction, if we avoid the explosion of our planet by natural forces, if we thrive beyond the limits of our solar system before time runs out we may one day change our views of time and nothing... Until then, it is relatively impossible to draw any real conclusion other than to assume that the Universe always has been and always will be... in some form or another.

  45. Re:Is there any conclusive proof of God? by rogoshen1 · · Score: 1

    that line of thinking has something in common with the bagel.

  46. Platonic Ideal Science Fiction... by rgbatduke · · Score: 3, Informative

    Sheesh. I mean, I'm a theorist. I love theory. But let us not lose sight of the difference between metaphysical speculation and "proof". All that has been done is that it has been shown that -- subject to a whole slew of prior assumptions (premises, axioms) that may or may not be correct (and that cannot be verified or sorted out either way) -- that a particular kind of "empty" Universe could consistently give rise to a vacuum fluctuation that grows a la big bang. Of course, there is a big difference between an "empty" Universe subject to all sorts of quantum rules and nothing -- as nothing tends to come without anything, including a set of rules quantum or otherwise.

    So let me summarize the argument. If the Universe already existed, complete with a set of physical laws, but just happened at some point in meta-space and meta-time to be empty, then if those probably non-unique laws had parameters within some almost certainly non-unique range, then mass-energy could have poofed into existence in a big bang as a quantum vacuum fluctuation that grew. It is proven that all of this could have happened.

    And we are now precisely as knowledgeable as we were before. We already knew that it could have happened because it did. We still know absolutely nothing (more) useful about the state of the Universe before the bang, because the bang erased the prior state in a blast of cosmic entropy and all of our ability to make inferences comes from weak extrapolation of observation of its visible state "now" (that is, into the distance-mediated past). We cannot use the "proof" to make any useful predictions that can be tested (either verified or falsified).

    Don't get me wrong, I think it is a lovely result, and it may prove useful in some indirect way by providing an incentive to reformulate quantum theory in ways that are at least consistent with the big bang, just as quantum theory ultimately proves useful when discussing things like black holes. But it is still theoretical metaphysics, not physics.

    --
    Even when the experts all agree, they may well be mistaken. --- Bertrand Russell.
  47. zero doesnt equal one by johnrpenner · · Score: 1

    zero doesnt equal one — no matter how much fancy math you got to prove it. :-p

    1. Re:zero doesnt equal one by Nyder · · Score: 1

      zero doesnt equal one — no matter how much fancy math you got to prove it. :-p

      What I gather from it is when you divide by 0 you get a new universe.

      --
      Be seeing you...
  48. Re:Is there any conclusive proof of God? by khallow · · Score: 1
    The problem is that the universe doesn't have the characteristics of a bagel. And we don't know all of its characteristics. Self-creation may be one of the unknowns.

    cannot prove God to you, but personally, I'm betting on God.

    What's the point of a bet you can't win or lose? Would you do anything differently even if you did know the outcome of that bet?

  49. Laugh by koan · · Score: 2

    that the Big Bang was result of quantum fluctuations in which the universe came into existence from nothing.

    If there was "nothing" what was fluctuating?

    --
    "If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
    1. Re:Laugh by aled · · Score: 1

      welcome to quantum physics. you are not supposed to understand them.

      --

      "I think this line is mostly filler"
  50. Curious by onproton · · Score: 1

    I don't claim to be a mathematician or a physicist but how could "nothing" have quantum field fluctuations? Isn't that by definition "something"? Can anyone clarify this?

    1. Re:Curious by mbkennel · · Score: 1


      Yeah. In quantum field theory the vacuum state is not mathematically zero, but the expectation of particle number (an functional operator on the field) evaluates as zero.

      So if you count 'something' as what we'd call particles & matter (and in this case other stuff) you can start out from "nothing" though the 'nothing' wasn't exactly nothing but the most primitive base state possible in the physics.

  51. Nothing may never have been by theflakes · · Score: 1

    Maybe nothing in the philosophical sense never was. Perhaps there was always something but that something was what gave rise to the quantum fluctuation. And, perhaps, that something was not a god after all but just the quantum vacuum. The philosophical nothing may be entirely imaginary. I don't know seems to be the best I can come up with on such matters.

  52. Nothing is Something? by BinBoy · · Score: 1

    > that the Big Bang was result of quantum fluctuations in which the universe came into existence from nothing

    They're using a rather odd definition of "nothing."

  53. Re:What is a "proof" that something "could" happen by EvilSS · · Score: 1

    If someone came along with a counter-proof and that proof held up then yes, it would invalidate the original.

    As for using a framework, correct. You have to use certain starting assumptions. In this case they are building on prior work that applies to the theory they are writing the proof for. Going back to the car analogy, you have to take an assumption, for example, that four wheel vehicles exist before you can begin trying to prove that a theoretical concept car can go 60 mph.

    Keep in mind we are talking about a "mathematical proof" that something is possible, not "math proves" that something is possible. There is a distinction.

    --
    I browse on +1 so AC's need not respond, I won't see it.
  54. What is nothing? Re:Its not nothing by Dastardly · · Score: 1

    I think more physicists need to work on the physics of "nothing". I don't think we really understand "nothing". In addition there are different kinds of "nothing".

    We have the "nothing" of empty space-time where particle and energy pop in and out of existence. What happens when there is a lot of nothing? 1 atom per cubic meter, per cubic kilometer over millions of light years?

    Even then there is still space-time. What happens when there "nothing" means no matter, no energy, and no space-time?

    Or, what happens when the universe expands to the extent that the visible universe contains no matter, and the CMB has cooled to a hundred negative powers of 10 or more. Does space-time lose meaning?

    The impression I get from current physics is that "nothing" is unstable. Has anyone studied "nothing" sufficiently to show that there is not some effect proportional to the amount of "nothing". Of course, how do you even talk about a quantity of "nothing"? But, what if the more "nothing" there is, the greater the so called quantum fluctuations, such that something is inevitable.

  55. Nothing + Nothing = ?? by freak0fnature · · Score: 1

    0 + 0 = 0
    0 - 0 = 0
    0 * 0 = 0
    0 / 0 = infinity! There it is!! The big bang!!!

  56. Nothing can come out of nothing by DanielOom · · Score: 1

    If all the universe is a vacuum, it could well have arisen out of nothing.

  57. It's a proof, all right... by GbrDead · · Score: 1

    A proof that a hypothesis might be right!

    Also, see the eighteenth voyage from "The Star Diaries" by Stanislaw Lem. It might have been used in the proving process. :-)

  58. Mathematical Universe Hypothesis by SoftwareArtist · · Score: 1

    The best, and really only, answer I know for that question is the Mathematical Universe Hypothesis. It says the universe is a purely mathematical structure that exists in an abstract, logical sense because by definition, it must exist. That's a hard concept to wrap your brain around, but it's the only approach I know of with even a hint of being able to answer your question. It gives you existence without needing God, quantum fluctuations, or anything else to bootstrap it. And so far, it's the only game in town.

    --
    "I'm too busy to research this and form an educated opinion, but I do have time to tell everyone my uninformed opinion."
    1. Re: Mathematical Universe Hypothesis by billy3 · · Score: 1

      And what does this "abstract structure" exist in? What is the context that contains it?

    2. Re: Mathematical Universe Hypothesis by SoftwareArtist · · Score: 1

      It doesn't exist in anything. That's the point: mathematics is independent of any context. When we say a piece of mathematics "exists", what we really mean is that certain consequences follow from certain definitions. It doesn't matter whether anyone has yet derived those consequences, or whether anyone has written down those definitions, or even whether there exists a person who could write them down or a surface on which to write them. It still remains true that certain consequences follow from certain definitions. And "the universe", according to the MUH, is the consequence that follows from some (currently unknown) definition.

      Here's the Wikipedia page on it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M.... I tried to include that in my first post, but it looks like Slashdot beta has changed how you specify links. :(

      --
      "I'm too busy to research this and form an educated opinion, but I do have time to tell everyone my uninformed opinion."
  59. That counts by billy3 · · Score: 1

    as throwing your hands up in the air and saying "it came from nothing because I don't want to think about what could've been before"

    1. Re:That counts by bhagwad · · Score: 1

      I'm not hypothesizing about whether or not or how it came from nothing. All I'm pointing out is the illogicality of speaking of causation of an even that gave birth to time.

    2. Re:That counts by billy3 · · Score: 1

      In a way we're saying the same thing with one difference: - You're keeping the notion of causation and "time" restricted to the big bang onwards - I'm thinking of those notions outside of and prior to the big bang (or our hubble volume, whatever), which is necessary if you want to have any discussions on the beginning of our universe, which is what the article tries to do To discuss such topics you must be willing to think outside our spacetime sandbox.

  60. Nothing is "neither matter nor space or time" by random_dfr · · Score: 1

    The paper defines nothing as "there is neither matter nor space or time", which sounds pretty empty to me.

    It does assume that there's a quantum state that has some probability to create a vacuum bubble. They further show(*) that there's a probability for that bubble to grow exponentially.


    (*) Well, that's at least what they state. My physics-fu is too weak to follow the math they show as proof. :(

  61. Re:Is there any conclusive proof of God? by khallow · · Score: 1

    Knowing that I will one day stand before God to answer for how well I lived out my faith is a fearful thing

    You don't know that. The human brain plays funny tricks on us on occasion and this false certainty is one of those tricks.

    The rational mind would ask "Why have faith in this particular thing?" God obviously doesn't need us to have faith in him whether or not he exists. We don't need to have faith in God either. When we do want or need faith, just about anything constructive works.

    The only thing that needs that faith is the belief itself. In order for a belief to persist, someone needs to believe the belief.

  62. Penrose's Conformal Cyclic Cosmology model .. by DTentilhao · · Score: 1

    "One of the great theories of modern cosmology is that the universe began in a Big Bang. It's backed up by numerous lines of evidence, such as the cosmic microwave background and so on"

    'over enormous scales of time (beyond 10^100 years), distance ceases to be meaningful as all mass breaks down into extremely red-shifted photon energy, whereupon time has no influence, and the universe continues to expand without event. This period from Big Bang to infinite expansion Penrose defines as an aeon. The smooth “hairless” infinite oblivion of the previous aeon becomes the low-entropy Big Bang state of the next aeon cycle`

    Cycles of Time: An Extraordinary New View of the Universe

  63. Hitchhiker's Improbabiliy Drive ... by TrollstonButterbeans · · Score: 1

    That is Hitchhiker's Improbability drive!

    --
    Priest: "Universe from nothing, no laws of physics, sped up time"+ huge discrepancies. Creationism? No. Big Bang Theory
  64. insightful point -- variation of observer paradox by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 1

    in that the universe seemingly must exist for us to perceive it

    Specific intelligence are apparently limited by many things whether the size of the brain/processor, or the materials it is made of, or the amount of energy to run it. But more than that, the though processes seem to be shaped by some combination of evolutionary pressures and chance (or possibly even design, like if we are living in a simulation). So, an extension of what you are suggesting is that all those shaping forces in some sense may limit the kind of ideas we can have about the universe as well as the questions we might think to ask about everything. I wrote my undergrad thesis in Psychology related to this topic in 1985 called "Why Intelligence: Object, Stability, Evolution, and Model".

    A related book from a database perspective:
    "Data and Reality" by William Kent
    http://www.bkent.net/Doc/darxr...
    "Data and Reality illustrates extensively the pitfalls of any simplistic attempts to capture reality as data in the sense of todayâ(TM)s database systems. The approach taken by the author is one which very logically and carefully delineates the facets of reality being represented in an information system, and also describes the data processing models used in such systems. The linguistic, semantic, and philosophical problems of describing reality are comprehensively examined⦠The depth of discussion of these concepts, as they impact on information systems, is not likely to be found elsewhere.⦠the value of this book resides in its critical, probing approach to the difficulties of modeling reality in typical information systems... it is very well written and should prove both enjoyable and enlightening to a careful reader. -ACM Computing Reviews, August 1980"

    There are other possible implications as well if we are living in a simulation -- although it is still possible we may live in the simulation but our minds could also not be of it (like a human can play a video game without the video game simulating the player's mind).

    --
    A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
  65. Can mathematics come from nothing? by philcolbourn · · Score: 1

    Mathematics would be an axiom for this wouldn't it?

  66. Re:Is there any conclusive proof of God? by khallow · · Score: 1

    So you believe, then, that when you die, it's to the worms and that's that? No afterlife? Do you believe you have a soul? Are you your body or are you in your body?

    It's not a matter of what I believe since mere belief doesn't shape reality to this degree. I simply have no basis for believing or not believing in those things and I can't simply make them go the way I want by wanting. If I have a soul or if there is an afterlife is something I can deal with as such time as it becomes relevant.

    Take a minute and think about these things...

    I could think about them till the heat death of the universe and I wouldn't come any closer to having answers.

    So my answer is this. Remember the Serenity Prayer.

  67. Maths may be OK, but I query their arithmetic by I_Wrote_This · · Score: 1
    In section VI:

    In one word, it turns out that the vacuum bubble will stop accelerating when it becomes very large, no matter whether it is closed, flat, or open.

    One word?!?

  68. Probability? by manu0601 · · Score: 1

    They say the big bang event could happen, but with what probability during a time period? If we consider eternity, it is amazing it happened only once.

    Or perhaps there have been mini big bangs inside our known universe? Or other universes beyond what we can observe?

  69. One Small Question by LifesABeach · · Score: 1

    "quantum fluctuations?"

  70. Mathematics Formed Spontaneously from Nothing... by Bob_Who · · Score: 1

    I just can't prove it, cosmologically speaking.

  71. Re:Is there any conclusive proof of God? by Bob_Who · · Score: 1

    ....Take, say, a bagel, for instance. The bagel didn't come out of nowhere. The bagel didn't create itself. The logical conclusion is the bagel was created. Extrapolate that out to the vastness of the universe. There is a creator.

    Or perhaps, more precisely, there is a baker

  72. Re:Is there any conclusive proof of God? by Barsteward · · Score: 1

    oh go away. that is such an immature and stupid rationale. are you still a teenager who thinks they can think?

    --
    "The hands that help are better far than lips that pray." - Robert Ingersoll (1833-1899)
  73. Confused: "Nothing" == "Quantum Fluctuations" by rhyous · · Score: 1

    First off, nothing can be created from nothing.

    Oh, by "nothing" you didn't mean "nothing" you meant "quantum fluctuations". Well, that clears things up, except for this:

    "Quantum Fluctuations" > "Nothing"

  74. Re:...the first rigorous proof... of unprovables. by Grumbleduke · · Score: 1

    I'm sure the math can line up to make it "work" on paper but how exactly does one test such things?

    You look for consequences of the theory. Things that would happen as a result of this, but which you won't expect otherwise.

    A great example being the recent announcement by the BICEP2 people. The theory they were working on was inflation - which made the maths work on paper, but happened billions of years ago so was hard to test. But the theory predicted that inflation would have caused an "imprint" of gravitational waves in the microwave background radiation, something unlikely to happen otherwise - and these people were able to detect this imprint.

    This is how science works sometimes. The theoretical physicists come up with a theory, the mathematicians prove it is possible and the experimental physicists find some consequence of the theory that can be tested.

  75. You're telling me something came from nothing by digitalattorney · · Score: 1

    ... and you can't even find Malaysian Airlines Flight MH370?

  76. Quanta are nothing? by schaedj · · Score: 1

    I'm trying to understand the OP's acceptance of the openly flawed basal logic of the paper. The paper depends on the potential occurrence of a "small true vacuum bubble" created per Heisenberg's theory in what is called a "Metastable False Vacuum" - By definition, the insertion of the word "False" immediately destroys the OP's premise that this describes something coming from nothing. This theoretical "metastable false vacuum" is not nothing. It is by definition "Something" which mathematically appears to be "nothing". All that this paper seems to have proven is that theoretically, if there was something that looked like nothing, something could theoretically have come from it. This brings us (unsurprisingly) no closer to any proof that something could come from nothing. Of course, brilliant idiots the world over will jump on this paper, just like they jumped on the concept of a "Metastable False Vacuum" to tout their "proof" that despite the fact that everyone with a grain of common sense understands that nothing comes from nothing, they know that we are wrong.