Slashdot Mirror
Student Records Kids Who Bully Him, Then Gets Threatened With Wiretapping Charge
An anonymous reader tips news of an incident in a Pennsylvania high school in which a student, Christian Stanfield, was being bullied on a regular basis. He used a tablet to make an audio recording of the bullies for the purpose of showing his mother how bad it was. She was shocked, and she called school officials to tell them what was going on. The officials brought in a police lieutenant — but not to deal with the bullies. Instead, the officer interrogated Stanfield and made him delete the recording. The officer then threatened to charge him with felony wiretapping. The charges were later reduced to disorderly conduct, and Stanfield was forced to testify before a magistrate, who found him guilty. Stanfield's mother said, "Christian's willingness to advocate in a non-violent manner should be championed as a turning point. If Mr. Milburn and the South Fayette school district really want to do the right thing, they would recognized that their zero-tolerance policies and overemphasis on academics and athletics have practically eliminated social and emotional functioning from school culture."
Update: 04/17 04:36 GMT by T : The attention this case has gotten may have something to do with the later-announced decision by the Allegheny County District Attorney's office to withdraw the charges against Stanfield.
Update: 04/17 04:36 GMT by T : The attention this case has gotten may have something to do with the later-announced decision by the Allegheny County District Attorney's office to withdraw the charges against Stanfield.
This is why people don't like going to the authorities...
Not only was his problem not taken care of, but he was actually punished for trying to protect himself non-violently!
Fucking ignorant fucks!
I usually don't feel this way, but as a person who was endlessly bullied, I hope they eat a bag of diseased dicks.
Another person who will be afraid of authority.
And, what if this kid commits a Columbine-esque revenge scenario? They'll blame it on some other bullshit, not their own lack of souls...
FUCK!
"Helping to keep you two steps ahead of the Thought Police!"
Ordinary citizens face felony convictions for this while the feds do something similar and are combatting terromism to keep us safe.
So, kid gathers evidence of bullying by other kids, gets charged?
That is insane.
So, if I take a video of someone stealing my car, would I get arrested? Under what circumstances could I do that and not be charged? WTF doesn't gathering evidence of bullying get an exemption from wiretap laws?
Whatever law enforcement and officers of the court were involved in this are total morons. This makes no sense at all.
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
Judging by how past actions of Pennsylvania HS football players were judged, this is not surprising. Compared to letting them get away with rape, this is downright reasonable.
What did his mother expect from the school as a reaction? Siding with the victim of bullying? Seriously? Allow me to give you a brief rundown of how school deal with bullying.
What a school wants is "peace". They want pupils to shut up and not cause a problem. Especially not a disciplinary one. So how do they deal with bullying? Well, easy: Not at all. Because it is not a school's problem. The bully has his victim, is satisfied and will not cause any other problem towards the school, its property or its faculty. The victim is being pushed and punched.
Now when does the school run into a problem in this scenario? Right. When the victim does not want to play his role anymore. That is when the school runs into a problem. Because now they have to do something. Until that moment, there was no reason for a reaction. A pacified bully is no problem, and a victim that lets the bully kick him is none either. The very LAST thing the school wants is to be forced to take action against the bully. Because then not only does it draw attention to the bullying problem, it puts a very unhappy bully at their hands, someone who knows how to cause trouble if he wants to, who may or may not be even supported in his actions by his parents.
The school's reaction is a logical one: The victim upset the apple cart. He created a problem for the school. What the school wants is him to shut the fuck up again and swallow the punches.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
A police officer makes him delete his recording, he then gets in trouble for the recording, then he was forced to testify and then was found guilty, and through all of that no one thought to ask the what the fuck they were doing. The problem with this is if he went to the principal and said they were bullying him he would have passed it off like nothing ever happened. You are told in school to tell an adult when something happens and when you do they don't ever do anything about it, but when the kid gets proof that he is being bullied he gets in trouble and they don't get punished at all(and they probably beat him up for telling on them). And everyone involved just says they were only doing their job.
The probably is Pennsylvania is an all-party state, where most states only require the consent of one party to record.
This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
Assuming this kid doesn't get his tablet smashed as the very next level of bullying...
He needs to record the bullying again, but this time, the recording needs to go directly to all local media outlets, and perhaps directly to social media as well. This may not make much difference to the bullies on the bus, but it's a lot harder for the bullies in the school administration or police department to bury.
It is still possible to shame entrenched bullies out of positions of authority. It doesn't often happen, but it's worth a try. It's certainly a Noble Cause.
Here's an interesting article that looks at the legal aspects of this case:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/...
tl;dr version: The charges are bullshit.
Tampering with evidence, intimidating a witness, and dereliction of duty. Under no circumstances should he have ordered the child to delete the recording. If there was a felony charge to be made, it was his duty to make it. Ordering and then overseeing the destruction of evidence to that effect is actionable.
And therefore never learn about finding a place in a hostile hierarchy. Because life is filled with environments where you don't have to fight for social acceptance. Not.
The author works for a questionable blog and this is her credentials:
"Priscilla Jones is a business writer and communications strategist based in the nation's capitals—Austin and D.C. Shedding light on incidences of abuse by overreaching government entities is her passion."
I'm sure I speak for a few slashdotters when I say, I copped it at school too.
The few times teachers got involved, I was apparently doing the wrong thing, not the person picking on me. As far as I'm concerned, if there's one thing I could change about my childhood - it would be the balls to stand up for myself and at least settle on a point in the pecking order. The few times I did stand up for myself, while incredibly scary for me - worked out in the end. The people involved generally left me alone after that.
This is instinctual bullshit, bullies themselves are often more messed up than the people they intimidate, normally stuff from parents, older brothers or god knows what, bad homes, drugs, alcohol, abuse - etc. None the less playground bullying and intimidation is simply alpha dominance rubbish but it's also part of life and nature. The last person who is going to help properly with this is a teacher unfortunately.
I was assaulted once by a kid twice my size in middle school. He was harassing a group of 5 girls, taking their bags and throwing them on the ground. I asked him, "Why are you being such an asshole? Why don't you just leave them alone?" He punched me in the back of the head when I turned to walk away, then took about 12 swings at my face while sitting on top of me. I never hit him at all, just deflected most of his attacks.
The next day, the school administrator gave both of us detention for a week. He said I shouldn't have used foul language.
I think there's a kind of deep inability on the part of adults to distinguish between rough play that got a little out of hand and a bully who's completely out of control. I can't see any school policy fixing that.
And a very strong reason why we won't be sending our child to public schools.
Do you really think that just because a school is private bullying automagically will cease to happen? Allow me to burst that bubble for you.
A private school for children of Sweden's wealthy elite has been shut down following accusations that boys were burned with hot irons by older pupils.
The latest allegations about severe bullying at Lundsberg boarding school emerged at the weekend after one of the boys was taken to hospital and the police were informed. Nine boys were involved in the assault, police said.
Following a visit to the school in rural Värmland, in south-west Sweden, inspectors announced its immediate closure until measures are taken to prevent abuse.
"I have downloaded hundreds and hundreds of records, why would I care if somebody downloads ours?" Robin Pecknold
I thought a phone had to be involved in order for it to be considered wiretapping. What is missed here is, bullies eventually grow up and become....police lieutenants.
A couple of points about this. My first thought when I heard this was that Pennsylvania law on recording someone requires their consent except in certain circumstances; one of those circumstances is when a crime is being committed. I thought that was the case here, except the boy recorded others as well as those committing a crime (terroristic threats, at the least). However, there is another exception to Pennsylvania law, when one does not have an expectation of privacy. The judge ruled that the boy recorded people when they had an expectation of privacy. Since everything I have read indicates that all of the recordings occurred in the classroom, I have a serious problem with the idea that anyone in the recordings had an expectation of privacy.
Further, the judge claimed that she was confident that if the bullying had been reported to the school, it would have been taken care of appropriately, the the school did not tolerate bullying. How the judge could reach that conclusion is a mystery to me, considering that the incident which was recorded occurred in the presence of a teacher.
The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
Last time I checked I could beat the shit out of a 14 year old just fine.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
because this is how you get school shootings. Or in Pennsylvanias recent case, school stabbings. When you strip a person of their safety, and offer them no recourse, they become hard. They become determined with nothing to lose. They adopt these horriffic scorched earth tactics because nothing you say or do is consistent or fair, so the outcome and result of their actions is no longer relevant. And the saddest part is in the aftermath.
people will wonder how they could have helped, what caused it, and why this happened. Gun nuts will bark about bullet proof blackboards and guns for teachers. Parents will entirely miss the point and call for tougher gun laws. No one will stop to consider students or kids for that matter as real people.
Good people go to bed earlier.
Work out, get some allies, and beat the ever-loving shit out of the bully. You'll get off easier.
That's obviously the school's lesson here.
Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
If you want your kid to learn to stand up for himself, would you pay a couple of other kids to beat him up until he finds the nerve to punch back, or would you send him to a self defence class? The first is likely to end in physical or psychological trauma, the second more likely to instil confidence as well as help keep potential bullies off his back.
What schools like these are doing is teaching him that his place in the hierarchy is being the classroom punching bag, and that he will be punished if he fights back or complains. Yes, life can be like that too, but only if you let it. School should be teaching him how to deal with such issues, not forcing him to suck it up.
If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
I didn't think those existed anymore. While the bullying is wrong, and the prosecution of gathering evidence is wrong, having a school that's about academics is not.
There are so many things wrong with this situation it's unreal. Not living in Pennsylvania I don't know what the laws there are i.e. what kind of anti-bullying laws they have and what kind of conversation recording laws they have but the school was wrong, the police were wrong, the judge was wrong and the parents of the kid were stupid for not saying "this conversation stops NOW until our lawyer gets here" when they saw where it was going. And the bully gets off Scott free and the kid who was probably already a nervous wreak now had psychological problems.
That is, what happened in Ohio versus the PSU incident in Happy Valley.
(assistant principal Aaron ) Skrbin testified that the district had records of Love complaining about students bullying her son, including an incident in October in which a student hit her son with “spitwads,” even after her son told him to stop.
“To be blunt, I would not classifying that as bullying,” Skrbin said.
WTF?!?!?!?
I was bullyed in high school. Swirlies/harrassment/vocal/physical. Worst 4 years of my life. I never had the courage back then to stand up, and/or tell my parents. I've since grown and now I'll stand up to random people on street harrassing a complete stranger. It's just gaining confidence, but in HS it's hard to gain that while being bullied.
But spitwads are a form of bullying, esp if requested to stop and it doesn't and it escalates. It's a way of hummiliating someone. I can't stand teachers/adults in position like this and they nothing against the bullies. no let's punish the victims. I always hoped that with the bullying issue brought more to light a few years ago, this would end, but nope teachers still blaiming the victims. It's sickening.
Here are the details of the relevant parties:
The "judge": Maureen McGraw-Desmet
295 Millers Run Road Bridgeville, PA 15017 phone: 412-221-3353 fax: 412-221-0908
The "officer": http://www.linkedin.com/pub/ro...
and then there's this piece of shit: http://www.southfayette.org/si... (smilburn@southfayette.org)
If ever there was a job for Anonymous...
From the article, the incident took place while he was receiving math help from the teacher. From the sound of it, this crap goes on all during class. What a sad system that puts someone who needs a different approach to teaching into a class where kids mouth off and can't (or won't) be controlled.
This posting is provided 'AS IS' without warranty of any kind, implied or otherwise.
The special ed kids with learning disabilities are mixed with the ones with behavioral/emotional disabilities in this school. In other words, people that get made fun of, and people that are a danger to them. Sheep and wolves. Must make the regular classrooms nice to remove both the slow learners and troublemakers.
The same thing happens in homeless shelters, where it's hard to protect the defenselessly mentally ill from the bad guys. And prisons, where a lot of mentally ill people live due to the policies of our country.
Another problem in this case is that the police and the judge are an extension of the school administration, and see themselves that way. Also, it is a small Western Pennsylvania school district surely dominated by athletics. Also, we don't know the full story. This could be the best school in the world, but I somehow doubt it.
If the same behavior occurred between two adults, the perps would be going to jail. It might be time to start adding that little life lesson to high schools.
When I went to high school. The spineless swine who get to be school administrators *always* punish the victims of bullying, not the perpetrators (usually, the popular kids or athletes). The victim is just one kid, usually powerless, who will be out of their life in a few years. The families of the perps are many, and they're often as dangerously aggressive as their spawn.
Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
Did parents stop teaching their kids to stick up for themselves? Are they waiting for the school system, video games, law enforcement, movies, or reality TV to do it?
Stop posting about wiretapping laws when this wasn't a phone conversation! This is such an obvious flaw in the entire story I'm not sure if I believe it at all.
Yup, its just like rape victims years ago. YOU THE VICTIM must have provoked it. YOU THE VICTIM ARE THE CAUSE. I'm glad that rape victims are usually not blamed any more. I just hope in the future that bully victims are afforded the same. Unfortunately, in the 40 years since I was that victim, I see not much has changed.
Why wasn't a copy made before showing the authorities? ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS MAKE A COPY!!!!
Not only should a copy have been made, it should have been uploaded to "the internet" as soon as possible where it could never go away.
Well, someone's getting stabbed and I think it's the bully. That'd be a fitting end. Every staff member, the policeman, and anyone else involved will be fired and sued into bankruptcy.
In Pennsylvania, if you secretly record somebody who is committing a crime, then instead of being considered helpful to the police by providing it as evidence, you would be be considered guilty of another crime yourself (which would then suggest to me that the video could not be used as evidence.... which would strike me me as pretty amazing if the crime that was recorded were heinous enough).
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
"- Pay an illegal immigrant $100 to stab the bully in the kidney."
Slashdot is no place to advocate outsourcing good American jobs to illegals and you are a bad person.
If I had been that kid, my response to the police bullying that backed up the school bullying would have been to proudly put that video out there on YouTube, with a full and factual description of the police reaction, naming names and quoting the threats. Become such an Internet hot potato that no authority is going to punish you.
I have noted the same problem in the private sector: you have a consumer problem with some large company, which has found that just ignoring your complaint generally makes it go away. After putting up with months of the runaround, you create a "United Breaks Guitars" video and send it viral. THAT gets attention, and the fix you've been looking for.
My child was harassing another kid in school. It went on for months. The other kid didn't want to go to school anymore. It was a Big Deal. Finally, the parent called me because she wasn't successful in getting the school to stop it. I called the principal and asked basically "where the hell is your anti bullying policy" and got the same response. He didn't consider it bullying. As you said, "WTF?!?!?!?!". The first I'd ever heard of this was when the other parent called me. More parents need to get involved in schools. Show up at school board meetings. Read them the riot act when they need it. Campaign against the bad ones at election time and for the good ones.
Oh, and you can bet my kid stopped that crap that day.
This is why I always took down the bullies who were dumb enough to pick on me. Once they were laid out on the ground, and recovered, they never bothered me again.
I'm from the area, and judges/DA's and Pigs thru out the state play fast and loose with their positions. In Westmoreland County the shit stain DA Peck, handling the recent school stabbings, since he has been in office there are numerous lawsuits for civil rights violations, I sat at a parole office to find out exactly what was going on, by talking to those that were on parole and found that non of the charges should have ever stuck, or the charges were, more or less, false/overreaching charges that lack any evidence.
The cops will sit their and act like they did the right thing, and even say well we didn't think it would get this far in the courts. But their the ones that decided to tack on charges with no evidence, and then the DA sits there and tries to make them stick, then the Preliminary Judge makes the charges stick in order to intimidate the defendant to cut a quick deal, racking up points for all parties involved.
I can see an appeal, and lawsuit against the courts, the pig, and the School district. Unless the kid and his mother have an a hot shot quick thinking attorney I am afraid the appeal court will rule in favor of the pig, and the judges decision. I fail to see how no one from top to bottom used any common sense in determining this was done to protect someone not to blackmail someone, or even used to press charges against anyone. Amazing the NSA and US spying agencies can do this and use a defense claim to warrant such behavior but if a citizen does it, it becomes the most horrific thing in the courts eyes.
Unreal. I would be watching a few people permanently disappear if that were my child.
Yes, because locking someone up in an artificial environment with others their own age is the best way to teach people about the real world. Schools do not educate; they indoctrinate.
[End Of Line]
No but a parent will have more control of how their child is treated. In a private school if a parent shows a recording of their child being bullied the principal will work to correct the issue or the child will move to another private school and he will lose income. If not this child the next one the bully goes after will leave. In a public school the principal does not have to worry about income as it is given to the school every year from taxes. He just has to worry about not spending it all or his budget will get cut back. The parent has no control.
A brick through the kids' family windows with the appropriate promises could also be persuasive.
This is the same mentality of those people who are scared of Google Glass and go all Internet tough guy about what they'd do to people wearing one.
People who believe in pecking orders, ie. bullies, identify with authority, even if they rebel against it, and those in authority believe in pecking orders, and so see bullying as enforcing the natural order.
The unifying attribute of all people like this is that they are ashamed of themselves. Not in any way that might modify their beliefs or actions, but in a way that they blame others for their faults and react belligerently to anyone who might capture evidence of them. So of course they're going to punish the kid for recording.
Is anyone else creeped out by how hopeful some of the posters here seem to be about the possibility of the kid "going Columbine"?
I get it that many slashdotters feel they were abused by bullies when they were kids, but the fact is pretty much every kid ever has been picked on (and has bullied another kid) at some time in their childhood. Yeah, it sucks, and yeah, the authorities here should absolutely be taken out of positions where they can commit future injustices like this, but in no way, shape or form should revenge fantasies like "going Columbine" be casually thrown about as if yeah, that's something reasonable.
Yeah, it sucks that some of you were horribly treated when you were young, but get the fuck over it already. If you still get overwraught to the point where you fantasize about killing people at shit that happened 10 years ago on a playground, you have problems and you need to address them.
Since I can't tell them apart, I treat all ACs as the same person.
They are not there to protect you, never have been never will be.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Recording a conversation without the consent of the other party even for the purpose of providing evidence requires a warrant, under the first amendment and the laws governing free speech. While I understand the intentions and agree that attempting to resolve it by providing clear evidence is reasonable, the simple truth is that under US law recording conversations is prohibited without the oversight of a judge who can determine whether or not it is an appropriate exception to the right of free speech. The worst part is that even though the officer probably has a very clear understanding of the circumstances that led to the desire to record the evidence, he cannot act on it if the evidence is gathered in an illegal manner. Without that safeguard, we have no right to control the content and audience of our self-expression, and no protection for our right to speak.
Fuck that school, fuck that police department, and fuck that state.
They couldn't so they changed the charge to disorderly conduct. Evidently he had no legitimate use for making the recording.
If you take a video it is admissible, but the voice portion of it cannot be used. Unfortunately, while we all agree the kid was trying to do the right thing, the law the protects our right to speak includes rules in how our speech can be used by others. While it is hard to understand in context, the police were correct in their reaction to the recording under the law.
Don't you have any laws against Misconduct in public office that could be brought again that head teacher and police officer for the egregious breach of rights.
This story hits so close to home it is just brutal. I'm over 40, have a good career, family, friends, and so on, and yet this somehow transports me back to high school. It drops me right at the very moment in time when some douchecanoe jock decided it would be hilarious to dump a bag full of crumbled potato chips on my head in the middle of the lunch room in front of 300 classmates. As I sit here at my desk, I'm 16 years old again, my face is flushed, my heart is pounding in my ears, I want disappear.
I cannot have enough sympathy for this kid. The adults in this situation were criminal in their conduct. Unforgivable.
Casca
The way I read the article was the bullying took place in front of a school math teacher. This likely was a form of harassment. Since the math teacher failed to act on this harassment, and the teacher was management's representative here, the school and therefore the school district (and city) was at risk of a harassment charge. They needed to eliminate the evidence. They had the police do this, who I presume were also city employees. I wonder if this rises to racketeering? Let's hope the state does a investigate of this. Looks like they might have avoided a lesser crime charge by making it a larger crime. (Not always a good idea!) (IANAL)
Even better if we had even so much as a reliable lie detector: imagine if all politicians were required to be openly monitored whenever addressing the public.
Of course the reality would probably just be that they keep themselves even more ignorant and only listen to the carefully vetted narrative provided them by their handlers.
--- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
Pennsylvania is a two-party consent state, so by my understanding of wiretapping laws there, what this kid did was illegal.
Now, this isn't something I would want to see, but I am morbidly curious about what would happen if somebody tried a mechanism like this after being a victim of being bullied, got charged with wiretapping... and then when it happened again, the victim decides to simply kill the bullies in retaliation.
Now clearly, homicide would probably be considered "excessive force" as a means of dealing with bullying, but I think that this hypothetical scenario also shows that two-party or all-party consent requirements for recording might be broken. If a person tries non-violent means to get the matter dealt with, and only gets punished for it... then what difference should it make, in that sense, whether they resort to violent extremes anyways?
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
Given that the public wants measurable results for their tax dollars, getting an easy conviction is their optimum strategy. Upsetting the parents of the bullies, who are probably high status bullies themselves, by revealing that their brats are nasty pieces of work, is not going to do the police any favours. The publicity this case has generated will do some good to this particular situation, but in general, we're stuck with this problem...
Let's do some bullying....
lfornella@southfayette.org
tburroughs@southfayette.org
wnewcomer@southfayette.org
avezzi@southfayette.org
fmorelli@southfayette.org
aczaplicki@southfayette.org
tpetrillo@southfayette.org
pbrinsky@southfayette.org
jiriti@southfayette.org
cgeisler@southfayette.org
Seriously, I think we should get a group together. Stalk and beat the crap out of the principal. When the principal tries to press charges, we'll simply have a ton of alibis. If he records, we'll press charges against him for wiretapping and demand at gun point that he delete the files.
So fuming pissed.
I thought IN PERSON recordings where legal in PA?
http://www.dmlp.org/legal-guid...
I once bullied someone in elementary school a few times on the bus, because he was weaker, slower, and less capable...
He was someone with older brothers and family who loved him, they were not weaker, nor slower. And one day, they saw me out riding my bike to a friends house. They chased me down, pulled ahead of me in their car, got out, stopped me, quickly explained who they were and what was about to happen, and commenced in professionally kicking my ass...
I admit it was a hard lesson to receive, but it was a lesson that I completely understood when the class was over. I realized that I had been an asshole and that I had done wrong to someone that did not deserve it. I realized that I would be held accountable for my actions. I realized that I put everyone at risk without reason, including my own safety. I never repeated these types of actions again...
We are simple animals, sometimes we need simple lessons...
The kid needs a new attorney. From Pennsylvania's own site:
The law does not cover oral communications when the speakers do not have an "expectation that such communication is not subject to interception under circumstances justifying such expectation." See 18 Pa. Cons. Stat. 5702 (link is to the entire code, choose Title 18, Part II, Article F, Chapter 57, Subchapter A, and then the specific provision). Therefore, you may be able to record in-person conversations occurring in a public place without consent. However, you should always get the consent of all parties before recording any conversation that common sense tells you is private.
The recordings he made were all in the public venue. Also, while recording conversations in PA requires the consent of both parties, that is only for the purposes of meetings, phone conversations, etc. Otherwise, recording the school play or little league team would be a violation under the law in PA and it isn't. No, either the story is short on a critical fact, or a grave injustice has occurred.
And a very strong reason why we won't be sending our child to public schools.
They are not places of learning. They are prison systems for children in which the biggest bully rules.
I would not be surprised if there were a strong correlation between the freedom of bullies and test scores. Why should anyone care about school when it's absolute torture going? How can they learn when it's all about emotional and sometimes physical torture?
Meh, I went to a white-bread private school and I still got bullied. In white-bread private school, your bully's father is a multi-millionaire who gives a lot of money to the school, above and beyond tuition. Ever deal with entitled, spoiled rich kid bullies? They're a lot of fun. And you can't get the school to do anything about it because they want daddy's money. Don't kid yourself. Bullies come in all shapes and sizes and socio-economic classes. Wealth and privilege only make it worse.
"What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
Why must I propose an alternative? Identifying a problem or eliminating a proposed solution are important all on their own. In this case, I merely attempted to debunk the claim that they'll never learn about finding a place in a "hostile hierarchy" without a school.
And when did I say that private schools are any better? I didn't.
Self-education or homeschooling are what I suggest, if at all possible.
[End Of Line]
Then wait for your chance when the bully is not expecting it and then let him have it so hard that he and his whole gang will forever keep clear of you. For example, when you are on the upside of a steep incline, or he is standing on the edge of steps or something that you can hit him off of. Use the advantage of the terrain.
Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
Even though the recordings have been deleted, the officials can be called in and to testify what they saw. The teacher who was allegedly present in these bullying sessions can be called in to testify. Collect evidence of bullying and have the school suspended for three years. That will teach them.
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
From their website"
Mission Statement
The mission of the South Fayette School District, in partnership with the community, is to cultivate academic, artistic, and athletic excellence by instilling a spirit of collaboration and communication to develop confident, ethical and responsible leaders.
Prove anything by multiplying Huge Number times Tiny Number
Comment removed based on user account deletion
.
Bullying was out of control, even back then. Its nothing new except for the media is finally covering it. I was no the receiving end of that bulling up until the day I took Aikido. My instructor was an elderly woman weighing in all but about 86 lbs soaking wet. That class change my life. I had started taking Judo 9 month earlier but it had not yet come in handy for anything. After sitting in on just one Aikido class at the ripe old age of 13, only watching, I threw and pinned my adult Judo instructor using an Aikido move in a sparing match when I was just supposed to be the practice dummy for class demonstration purposes.
Since graduating from high school, I have also taken Taekwondo, Shaolin Kung Fu, and Kenjutsu, but I always come back to Aikido in a time of need and/or a delicate situation. Its just more useful in everyday life. You merely use the opponents own energy against themself, by understanding the physiology of the human body and how it can and can not move. The philosophy of not hurting the opponent is the best part of it, and therefore useful for almost any kind of bad situation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
My last encounter with such a school yard bully was as a bystander in a high school metal shop class, only I just couldn't stand there and watch it happen. The Class Clown (aka dumb F*@ck ) took a hand full of metal shavings off the lathe and went to shove it down this one kids shirt, and my own hand wound up going in right behind. I clinched his fist so he could not let go of the metal shavings, pulled his hand out slowly, squeezing his hand with around 90+ lbs of pressure, and then gently rolled him across the shop bench table with one hand. All 200 lbs of him, while I was about 150lbs at the time. Its proof that with enough thrust even pigs can fly....
The administration, as you might guess did nothing, so the mighty sward of 'do-nothing-ever' cuts both ways at times.
A little bit of self confidence can allow you to talk your way out of bad situations a lot more easily. Simple fact, its no fun to pick on someone who is just not afraid of you. The bullies are after the feeling of control they get when someone submits to their will, and they won't get any kind of satisfaction like that here.
Let's keep Columbine out of this...there was waaaaay more going on that what we saw on news reports.
Those boys were tormented by more than schoolyard bullying, more than fellow students.
The police admitted, in their book-length report, that they *removed the blanket* from the teacher who had been shot...remember the "1 bleeding to death" sign in the classroom window? Yeah...that guy...the police admitted they removed the blanket as he lay there dying
Second, Harris and Klebold were arrested and put on probation **a year before Columbine**...that info again didn't get released until years later...the details of their first arrest are still being withheld, only one page (that looks very incriminating to a group of police) has been seen publicly
those boys were sexually abused by cops
Schools are insane now...the way the school administrator and cops handled this was insane...but Columbine was an order of magnitude worse
Thank you Dave Raggett
It seems like US society is actively encouraging resolving any conflict with guns rather than with information, evidence and dialogue.
FTFY
Don't complain about syntax, grammar, or spelling. There is no.hell like input on android.
... then asks for asylum in Canada.
yes, that sounds completely logical and well thought out.
Don't complain about syntax, grammar, or spelling. There is no.hell like input on android.
Oh, and you can bet my kid stopped that crap that day.
How'd you get him to do that? Did you bully him?
Don't complain about syntax, grammar, or spelling. There is no.hell like input on android.
He did say they wouldn't go to public schools. He did NOT say they would be going to a private school. I am 100% sure my son would be bullied due to being a really smart geek at the public high school. He does not go to a private school. He attends a charter school that is full of nerds. I am positive he has not been bullied there. Perhaps the OP has another option such as this in mind?
School main line - 412-221-4542 Principal Mr. Scott Milburn phone ext. 265 email: smilburn@southfayette.org
Pennsylvania is a two-party consent state, so by my understanding of wiretapping laws there, what this kid did was illegal.
Then the school administrators should be charged with tampering with evidence. And the judge should have thrown it out for lack of evidence. And the police officer should be reprimanded for failing to Mirandize the kid, and the kid was actually a minor (15 years old) so not bringing in the parent before interrogating him is another reprimand.
For one, Slashdot has a bunch of anti-social jerks that like to post, who have an inability to empathize with anyone else. So no surprise they think something like that is a good idea, because they they aren't very reasonable people.
However others have pointed out, accurately I think, that something like this can well be a cause for it. The thing is that if you push someone in to a corner and give them what seems to be no way out, no way to fight back, they may go nuts. Happens with other animals, not just humans. So if you have a kid that is continually picked on, who tries to stand up for themselves, but is then picked on even worse, this time by law enforcement, well then they may well take drastic measures because they feel like there's no option, no hope.
I think there is some real merit to this. Not merit as in saying it is good that kids do it, but that it is correct that actions like this can lead to kids doing it. If they feel they have nothing to lose and nowhere to turn, then a completely crazy overreaction may be the only option they feel they have.
I mean here you have a case of a kid who did everything right, and got increasingly screwed: He never fought back or defended himself, which schools do not allow (you can argue if they should, but they don't, it is against the rules). He got no help or support from the school, I mean it was allowed to happen IN CLASS in front of a teacher. He told his parents, they were skeptical, he produced evidence. He was then threatened by the police, ordered to delete it (illegally), drug to court, etc, etc. So what has he got now? He's been effectively told the bullies are allowed to do as they wish and if you attempt to stop them the police and courts will punish you.
So what's he to do? You can see how a drastic, illogical, action might be what he thinks is his only option. Remember that he doesn't have the perspective of age, he can't look on high school and say "Ya that's a real short time in your life and it gets WAY better once you are out and an adult." To him, this is his whole world. And for that matter, the adult world has stepped in and told him he;s wrong to try and make things better for himself.
As such you can see why people are saying it can lead to something like a school shooting. It is something that administrators need to consider: Dealing with bullying isn't something to do just because it is the right thing (which would be a good enough reason) but it is a safety issue as well.
The detective clearly would have preferred it if the kid had pulled out a Colt .45 and blown the offending child bully's brains out all over the wall.
The simple truth is simply too threatening to too many people. They demand laws that provide drama instead.
I don't mean to be "that guy" but at their age neither bully nor victim are at fault. Neither popular kid, nor unpopular kid are at fault. It's not as though these kids make a conscious decision when they're 6 years old to seek popularity or dickhead status. Its most probably bred into them by their surroundings and/or parents/upbringings.
You know, the whole adult vs child thing. Children cannot be accountable for ALL their actions because some of them are through no-fault-of-their-own.
This case sounds like one of more privileged vs not as privileged. Ie. bully family has better town status and/or lawyer.
I didn't read the articles, so my points might be complete nonsense.
I don't agree. Some kids aren't athletic, might not be all that coordinated, and might not have much of an interest in sports. And for that matter, some of them might not be inclined towards violence unless they are repeatedly provoked. In some (many?) cases the bullies are the athletes so they already have the physical advantage over the victims.
But to force the kid to learn self defense or to try and toughen them up by forcing them to play some sport they might not like doesn't sound like a good plan.
Seriously, federal civil rights lawsuit.
Start with subpoena of the entire school districts disciplinary records for the last 50 years. The photocopy costs alone will have them begging to settle.
If there is such a thing as justifiable homicide I would think this falls into the category of justifiable wiretapping.
Cops and other people in authority wonder why they aren't liked.
Geesh!
Dad to Principal: "My son can't defend himself when he gets hit?" Principal: "Your son should come to us so we can stop it." Dad: "That's fine, so how about this? Every time my son tells us he got hit, I hit you!" Teachers and playground monitors paid better attention after that.
Precisely!
Were you not listening, reading or watching for the past decade?
What did you not understand?
This. Is. Corporatism! (Not Sparta! 8-))
An under-educated class, born to be in debt, endlessly conditioned to obey, bred under pain of punishment, to Serve.
In this model, Authority is there to Rule, not to Adjudicate, so any attempt, no matter how trivial, to resist, to dissent, or,
as in this case, to provide any alternative to the Authority defined and controlled processes, will *always* be harshly punished.
As subversive.
Appeals for protection justify further exploitation, since the weak deserve to be hurt, and the system serves only the strong.
Might is Right, and don't bleed on the floor.
The only element missing is religion: "If Jaysus loved you, you wouldn't be picked on".
This school has a board.
This municipality has elected officials.
The Majority of the people in this area voted for this.
Your neighbours, colleagues and fellow-parents?
They want this.
This is what modern Western society has become.
(R)ule in Hell or (S)erve in Heaven [R]?
Who is the victim of this heinous wiretapping crime?
If the bully's lawyer wants to attempt to use wiretapping as a defense, then ok.
But why should the cops bring it up?
The power of the District Attorney's office is shown here too.
Instead of going to court, they "took the deal".
More than 90 percent of criminal cases are never tried before a jury, in part because the Supreme Court ruled in 1978 that threatening someone with life imprisonment for a minor crime in an effort to induce him to forfeit a jury trial did not violate his Sixth Amendment right to trial.
Please tell us what is done at that school to successfully stop/prevent the bullying that seem to occur everywhere else where there's more than a handful of kids or teens spending most of their time together outside of their from home.
Just because you are positive that your kid isn't bullied doesn't mean he isn't, hopefully you are right, but if so how can you be certain that with him being a smart kid with plenty of equally smart and nerdy friends he isn't bullying one of the less bright ones?
"I have downloaded hundreds and hundreds of records, why would I care if somebody downloads ours?" Robin Pecknold
So the kid/parents learned a valuable lesson! If you intend to procure a recording, make certain YOU don't do the recording. Perhaps an anonymous tipster could procure the recording and post it publicly next time. No charges, nothing to redact...
Do you really think that private school is the only alternative to public school?
No. But I know that whenever you have more than 1 child spending significant part of their time together bullying will occur. A lot can be done to limit the extent and severity of it but beyond keeping kids completely separated from other kids until they reach adulthood (as complete social disasters) nothing can be done to completely eliminate bullying. Even then there is no guarantee as there are cases of adult bullying kids, something I experienced between the ages of 9-12 when my teacher had me singled out as outlet for his personal failures.
"I have downloaded hundreds and hundreds of records, why would I care if somebody downloads ours?" Robin Pecknold
Trolling with baseless and inflammatory questions? Or intentionally displaying your abject stupidity by interpreting "bully" so broadly that the term becomes useless?
Given your posting history, my bet is on both.
For others who might care (since you won't):
Punishment and bullying are distinguishable in many ways, one of which is that punishment tends to be used after violation of a generally agreed norm by someone we recognize has the authority to punish (a judge, an teacher, a parent). Bullying tends to involve some random jackass acting on a whim or in reponse to a violation of his own personal rules. I'll assume for the sake of argument that you're aware of the various state laws and school policies that make bullying a punishable offense, rather than a figment of the GP's imagination.
Hopefully the kid has an "automatically backed up" copy which "someone" could anonymously post on YouTube. If officials ask if he knew about it he could just say he knew less than the school officials did about him being bullied.
Yup, that's the kind of society this is!
Exactly. The only chance to get a fair shake is to practice asymmetric warfare. Bury them with stuff it doesnt cost you much to file but costs them lots to defend, which is exactly what they do to you.
You're a good dad. Thank you.
Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
if that cop is killed in the line of duty.
Or anytime really.
Second, you do know punishment doesn't work do you? Or you're one of those weird church nutters that believes jesus did away with all religious requirements except for the punishment of children? See, how I copied you? I even left out the most obvious fanboi option.
and 3rd. Monkey see, monkey do. If you read the postings on the topic here there are a significant number of people who were bullied that would relish the opportunity to bully someone weaker or in a weakened position.
Forth and most significant, don't you want to know how he 'solved' bullying? Doesn't that seem the least bit important to you?
No, of course not. You've already solved it with 'punishment' which in your head seems to be abuse that's sanctified because of its 'educative' goals.*
Of course, that's how perpetrators of any human vice justify their personal use. They alone, out of the whole human race, actually have a reason for their actions.
* If bullies are frequently heard talking about how they're going to teach-someone-a-lesson, in your world does that mean we should let the abuse slide and just judge them on their poor teaching skills?
Don't complain about syntax, grammar, or spelling. There is no.hell like input on android.
I'd rather have my kids use "excessive force" than endure bullying. I can help them with the former. It's way harder with the latter.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
The alternative proposal would be that schools be held responsible for bullying. Simple as that. Only if looking away gets more costly and inconvenient than interfering a school will do it.
Right now, the best thing a school can do, from the school's point of view, is letting the bullies rule the school yard. It only has advantages for the school. Bullies are usually potential troublemakers. They are the kind of people who would get into trouble if the chance presents itself. Allowing bullies to beat up weaker kids gives the bullies and outlet for their aggression so they won't take it out on, say, school property or other property around school that might reflect badly on the school, and bullies honor that "silent agreement". After all, they get what they want, they get to beat up someone with impunity, so they don't have too much of a problem to play along the "rules".
That is a very favorable situation for the school because they don't have to deal with the bully problem. It does create a lot of really messed up kids, some of whom will spend a lot of time and money during their adult years in therapy to get over the trauma. Or it might end in a sad report about yet another kid who couldn't take it anymore taking a gun and revenge instead.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Threats have to be followed through. One of the reasons why I don't use threats. Mostly because a threat always also includes the option to avoid it if the other party changes its behaviour.
By the time I ponder what to do to someone, he already did enough to have forfeited the chance for a choice.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
No, it means that we really need to work on your reading comprehension skills.
1. Just because you say "you're wrong" doesn't mean that I am.
2. Thanks for proving my second point for me.
3. Thanks for proving my first point for me. The guy you attacked didn't claim to have been bullied, much less to relish bullying others.
4. Nope. And even if I did, asking would be sufficient, not asking and then immediately following up with a charge that the parent bullied the child.
Yep..
Name even one society which does not punish. Alternately, explain how a universal lack of punishment is a virtue. Because that is precisely where you've taking this given your rejection of punishment by judges, administrators and parents.
And again... troll.
Anti-wiretapping laws are there TO PROTECT YOU.
Yes, it is unfortunate that it hampers this kid's attempt at exposing the bullying... But the law is there to protect everyone from being recorded without their express consent. The fact that the recording was used for good does not make it legal, and I know that sucks in this case... but overall, the law is better left intact for the greater good. It's protecting you, all of you, from someone recording you and using it against you. Do you *really* want to lose that protection because of this one case? I hope not. Because once you lose a protection like that, it's gone forever. I say that again, it would be gone FOREVER. And in days... not weeks, not years, you would see people falling prey to the loss of that protection. Then you will look back and think, "What have we done?"
Don't get me wrong, I was bulllied horribly growing up. It was terrible! But losing this one legal protection we have to deal with bullies is not the answer.
Don't know what the real answer is... anything I dream up is just as illegal, as I was bullied myself and can only think of mean ways to deal with them. But losing our rights and legal protections is the *worst* way to go.
This sig intentionally left blank.
Why so complicated? Hold schools responsible for bullying, including any and all costs for medical bills, psychological and otherwise, that can be linked to it, payable by the school's budget. Unless they can show that they did their best to get rid of the bullies instead of the usual tactics of turning a blind eye to it so the bully doesn't find other targets (like school property or faculty) they are responsible, fully. In public schools you can also fire anyone who could have responded and didn't. Private schools should be sufficiently motivated by the fact that the fines can make up a multiple of the tuition fee they lose by throwing the bully out.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Something similar here: My son has always been MUCH larger than everyone in his same age group. In kindergarten, I caught him beating up a boy in the third grade. I grabbed him and took him over to the other boys house after the other boy arrived home and had him apologize in front of the other boy's parents. He stopped being a bully forever after that.
Fast forward to high school and my son comes home complaining loudly one day. He is tired of hearing all of this anti-bullying "crap". They have to watch movies and go to the auditorium and blah blah endlessly and there is no bullying problem!
"Dad, why do I have to keep hearing this crap? I never see ANY bullying anywhere."
So I finally broke it to him, "Son, YOU are the bully. I know, you do not bully anyone but look at yourself. Is there anyone in the 10th grade who is as big as you?"
"No.", he says.
"Is there anyone in the 11th grade that is as big as you?", I ask.
"No, but there is one kid as tall as me.", he says.
So I told him that he was supposed to be the bully but because he was not doing his job, there was no room for anyone else to do it. Why? Because he could beat the shit out of anyone who tried.
I then went on to explain how bullying actually *IS* is a huge problem elsewhere and he agreed that it was possible. He stopped complaining after that and his school remained peaceful. I am proud of his choices.
"Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
where I grew up school discipline was plain and simple, u get a discipline note once , twice, third time you have to repeat the whole year even if your exams scores are fine. You keep doing stupid things nonetheless, you get expelled from that school, no if no but. Athletes? No differences at all. And during teaching not a fly moves...always. Actually once we complained to the school principal because we perceived that one teacher had slightly too soft/slacking attitude. That's how it should be imho. School is a place to learn and open your mind, professional multi-millions earning athletes don't bring anyone any benefit except as tv-party hooligans people entertainment.
Notice however that the authorities took immediate preventive action. Not CYA see no evil type bullshit.
If information wants to be free, why does my internet connection cost so much?
Just to clarify, since you can't seem to comprehend. I didn't attack anybody. I asked a question. Then you went off the rails, taking everything to illogical extremes, changing contexts willy-nilly, setting up strawmen and red herrings left and right, and going off on unrelated tangents.
Science fact:Punishment does not work, whether everybody keeps doing it has nothing to do with if it actually works.
You couldn't even understand the paper you posted could you? Do you know why they keep saying 'deterrence'? It's because the fact that punishment does not work has been shown so many times that the only hope left for the penal system, and what's left to study, is that punishment 'works' as a deterrent. If you understood the paper, you would see even then, not so much. In fact, in the paper you linked to, increasing duration and severity of punishment actually increases recividism!!! That's as far as I'll try explaining because you don't seem like somebody who understands science or logic, or you wouldn't have posted a document that totally undermines your position. It's not enough to wave knowledge around like a burning brand to fend off arguments, you have to actually understand it. You trolled me good.
Don't complain about syntax, grammar, or spelling. There is no.hell like input on android.
Why do you call this a "post authoritarian decade"?
Was 2000 - 2010 an "authoritarian decade"? If so, why?
That that is is that that that that is not is not.
He was NOT an arm of government, so 5th amendment does not apply. Maybe he should have packed heat into the school and gone all Columbine on them. Fek that.
"There is no god but allah" - well, they got it half right.