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Misogyny, Entitlement, and Nerds
PvtVoid writes: "Jeopardy champion Arthur Chu pens a heartfelt takedown of misogyny in nerd culture: 'I’ve heard and seen the stories that those of you who followed the #YesAllWomen hashtag on Twitter have seen—women getting groped at cons, women getting vicious insults flung at them online, women getting stalked by creeps in college and told they should be "flattered." I’ve heard Elliot Rodger’s voice before. I was expecting his manifesto to be incomprehensible madness—hoping for it to be—but it wasn’t. It’s a standard frustrated angry geeky guy manifesto, except for the part about mass murder. I've heard it from acquaintances, I've heard it from friends. I've heard it come out of my own mouth, in moments of anger and weakness.
What the f*$# is wrong with us? How much longer are we going to be in denial that there's a thing called "rape culture" and we ought to do something about it? ... To paraphrase the great John Oliver, listen up, fellow self-pitying nerd boys — we are not the victims here. We are not the underdogs. We are not the ones who have our ownership over our bodies and our emotions stepped on constantly by other people's entitlement. We're not the ones where one out of six of us will have someone violently attempt to take control of our bodies in our lifetimes.'"
What the f*$# is wrong with us? How much longer are we going to be in denial that there's a thing called "rape culture" and we ought to do something about it? ... To paraphrase the great John Oliver, listen up, fellow self-pitying nerd boys — we are not the victims here. We are not the underdogs. We are not the ones who have our ownership over our bodies and our emotions stepped on constantly by other people's entitlement. We're not the ones where one out of six of us will have someone violently attempt to take control of our bodies in our lifetimes.'"
"Itâ(TM)s a standard frustrated angry geeky guy manifesto ..."
You hang around a weird/scary bunch of angry geeky guys. The "manifesto" becomes far-out well before the murder-intent plans.
I don't know about you, but there's nothing wrong with me. I would appreciate it if you stopped putting words into my mouth.
I think Henry Rollins summed it up the best...
You say we're all the same.
You don't even know my name.
Sometime somewhere someone wants hurt you and I'm one of them
You think you know about me...
You don't know a damn thing about me!
So I take all the blame...
I'm not all men
I'm just one man
I'm not that man!
How much longer are we going to be in denial that there's a thing called "rape culture" and we ought to do something about it?
Forever, because there is no such thing. Only by using the ever-expanding militant-feminist definition of rape which currently stands at "anything, at all, ever, that makes me in the slightest bit uncomfortable" can we possibly believe there's actually a culture of rape. What we ACTUALLY have is a culture of socailly retarded males and females, and culture of feminists preying on the socially retarded females and making them believe that they're entitled to waltz through never being made to feel uncomfortable, ever. This is patently untrue, and no amount of slut-walks can ever create a utopia where a woman - even a man - can leave a ladeeda life.
This must be another of these fake outrage threads.
women are also bitches.
So what? You're an asshole. That does not give me the right to take your life.
I'm not a complete idiot... Some parts are missing.
And you're an ass. Women are women.
The guy went to the gym and loved to go out and take pics of himself and his BMW. He was not a nerd.
You will have to use the Asians or autists as scapegoats because we are not taking the fall for this one. Go to hell you piece of shit.
I like to think that most of us are above all this nonsense and just treat each other equally regardless, I don't think it's quite fair to stereotype 'nerds', 'geeks', 'tech-heads' or whatever term you wish to use, and tar us all with the same brush.
Good to see the PC police out in full force. Wonder why these folks don't focus their energies on the dozens shot in inner cities around the country EVERY NIGHT rather than trying to score political points by pointing out "Look! an angry white guy did it!" every time a mass shooting happens (and by that, I mean the statistically insignificant one or two times a year it happens)? It's an election year, bitches.
Is he going to go through his argument in the standard, logical order, or is going to jump around all over the place to try to confuse the reader?
Wonder how its working out for him after this.
Some variation of this comes up now and then, this has been a topic and argument within geekdom for, well, as long as I can remember at least. Sadly I rarely see people actually starting to see from another perspective and instead just circling the wagons to defend about their misogyny.
"We're not the ones where one out of six of us will have someone violently attempt to take control of our bodies in our lifetimes."
This is debatable. The numbers on men being raped are even more fuzzy than for women and studies in the military have suggested that it is a lot closer to the rate for female victims that we might imagine.
you are NOTHING
Social standards are built upon the norms established during one's childhood based upon upbringing and exposure to diverse environments.
We are still very young, generation-wise, from the time of women's suffrage. Realistically, we're still very young from the race segregation as well. No matter how good of a person you are, there is another person on the other side of the country being taught opposing beliefs.
These are issues that are not solved overnight. They are solved very slowly, decade-by-decade, as society drifts towards being more open and accepting. Solutions simply require that those who are misogynistic, bigoted, or prejudice be killed off without forcing their beliefs unto their offspring. The percentage of children from each generation who are raised to treat others with respect should then increase over time.
There is no solution, there's nothing to be gained by calling out entire swathes of humanity. To fix this we should strive to teach our kids to treat each other better, then wait 20 years for them to pass on the same message to their kids. We should strive to expose our children to strong female peers, provide good role models, and give them opportunities to learn from each other. And then wait 20 years.
Realize that this is not an issue that will be solved during your lifetime and do what you can for the future generations.
In a country where there's still rampant racism, it'll be a long time before we see gender issues resolved. However, it has made a remarkable movement over the past hundred years.
...most of my life, obviously - because I don't ever recall EVER seeing a geek/nerd in my circles stalking anyone, threatening a girl and never mind hitting one. I'd say they'd improve their life if they even TRIED to HIT on any woman at all.
Most of those I know are frightened at the very concept of dating, pretty socially awkward I guess, but kind and gentle caring people who wouldn't even DREAM of hurting anyone. Sure, they'll kick your mental-a** and hurt your coding feelings by pointing out the numerous bugs in your code, and flaws in your theories, and possibly sweep the floor with your ego in gaming, but no way they'd ever even lift a finger to actually hurt you.
Nerds are usually unsure of themselves, usually excellent at SOMETHING and not so much at everything else. This is usually because they have spent so much time coding and learning very complicated stuff that takes a LONG time of anyone's life, so it's bound to steal some time from the usual life that just about anyone else live, learning the ropes of networking and social skills.
I must have been living under a rock the last 30 years or so.
What this world is coming to - is for you and me to decide.
i've known some pretty bad people in my life, but never someone who raped anyone
i know there are people who do it, but it's not like every guy does it. small percentage
and a lot of incidents are clouded by alcohol and drugs both parties take
ItÃ(TM)s a standard frustrated angry geeky guy manifesto, except for the part about mass murder.
The underlying theme "Why don't girls like nice guys?" Is not limited to "geeks". I've heard plenty of teenagers and 20 something guys say that. The reality is, it's no different than women whining about what Men prefer in women. The difference this time is some moron thought it was justification for randomly killing people
So, while the main threads of this discussion will certainly have no trouble sustaining combustion, what happens if we change the title to:
Misogyny, Entitlement, and Muslims
Misogyny, Entitlement, and Hispanics
Misogyny, Entitlement, and The 1%
Is it still open season on Nerds? Will I not get in trouble for binding "those people" to Nerds, as opposed to Blacks, or Jews, or... ?
And I am really not in the mood to exhaust myself (to some measureable extent) (once more) (is that the actual intent???) refuting A, B, C, and D,..., in such as this standard, packaged doggerel. Perhaps I will at least read the thing (first line or two) at some point, given some level of boredom.
All I can say, is learn to think for yourself, see what makes sense to you, do your best to comport yourself in a reasonable way, all things considered.
Heraclitus: Latent structure is master of obvious structure.
Neil Young: There's more to the picture, than meets the eye, hey-hey, my-my.
Andersen: The Emperor has no clothes!
Bukowski said it. I believe it. That settles it.
Is this a direct offshoot of our "never a loser" upbringing? I'm afraid these kids who go out on a rampage, thinking the entire time *they* are the victim, may actually be a victim of the coddled upbringing that seems to be commonplace since the 90's. I'm talking about helicopter parents who refuse to let their children get Bs, get second place (or even, god forbid, last place) in any kind of competition. Then we see them unable to understand and cope with failure later in life and blame others instead of accepting defeat. Like most people, I blame the parents. I blame them for not letting them fail. Parents should provide positive influence and basic necessities for children, then get the hell out of the way and let children grow up on their own.
Children who grow up without siblings (ie compeition for parents time) seem to be particularly narrisistic and useless when combined with overbearing and coddling parents. Those
"No, not the straw man that all men are constantly plotting rape, but that we live in an entitlement culture where guys think they need to be having sex with girls in order to be happy and fulfilled." I really don't know where to begin and which line of thought should i follow when answering this idiotic sentence. From the meta-level fact that we as a species need to have sex in order to survive? From the evolutionary point of view, where lust is a mechanism of encouraging and rewarding intercourse? From the psychological point of view where the need for intimacy self-fulfillment and for high self-esteem is highly entangled with need of finding a partner? So "what the fuck is wrong with us?". Maybe the correct question is: "what the fuck is wrong with him?"
I take my children to see Madonna(..), but I never for once ever thought I was in the same business.Chris Rea.
Even by geek standards, this guy was a schmuck.
More importantly, he was in therapy pretty much his entire life. How did California miss that when giving him a gun license? (even though he killed a number of people with a knife and his car)
In the words of Chris Rock, what ever happened to crazy?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...
"When I was a kid, they used to separate the crazy kids from everybody."
Not a bad idea.
The entire premise of the article is bullshit. Everything is a two-way street.
Another low-quality "article" on /.
Personally, I think it's our culture's way of continuing to tease and make fun of "nerds" (of which there's a big difference between "Nerds" and "Geeks").
In this context, Nerds are pathetic, (usually) smart, ugly, socially ignorant and *always* panned by every other clique ... and are almost always boys.
I believe the stories are intentionally written, so that we can get a kick out of the pathetic attempts of these people to "win love", but more importantly, to laugh at their social awkwardness. It's no fun to write a story where one Nerd falls in love with another. It's more fun to watch them ignorantly pursue non-Nerds, with one gaffe after another, we collectively laugh at their un-known embarrassment.
While many of these gags, when looking at the collective body of 30 years of movies, will show misogynistic situations (which I'm 100% sure are true), I believe the true intention is to bully this group and maintain a clique of social outcasts for decades to come.
While I've always been a GEEK, being athletic and having *some* social skills, has kept me out of the NERD category. There was a time when starring at a computer screen, far removed from physical, social contact was considered geeky. After many decades of being a GEEK, I look around to see everyone is now doing it and I often mutter the word "GEEK" or "NERDS".
Telling people who feel like Elliot Rodger that they're not a victim. This will help because 1) they'll believe it, and 2) believing it will solve their issues with reality.
Or perhaps not.
Perhaps it will simply fuel their hatred even more, because now they're even having the reality of their emotions denied, as if they're somehow defective in that respect too.
Assigning victims and victimizers here is completely irrelevant to finding out what's actually wrong with this situation, and how to fix it.
When we print and publicize the names of killers, we inadvertently elevate them and encourage others to imitate their actions. Why give them the glory of infamy? We can just call him "the gunman" of the particular tragedy.
begets more extremism. #yesallwomen have to deal with a culture that extols misogyny as a core value of society. this is a welcome discussion that we should all have, but it doesn't help to lump mass groups of people into stereotypes. maybe in this discussion we should be talking about motivations, triggers, root causes, nature vs nurture rather than simplifying things by blaming large groups of people.
by lumping people into stereotypes we are creating defensiveness and retaliation that does nothing to help the cause. i understand that its easier to point the finger at people rather than at root causes, but with out addressing the root causes how can we alter the way society thinks
I'm a hard core nerd that doesn't have any problem picking up women. Asking why nerds are antisocial dickheads is pretty much like asking why women are bitches and tells us a lot more about you than it does about nerds or women.
Okay.. I don't even know what the fuck this story is about?
If some asshole geeks don't know how to treat other human beings with respect, why is that my problem?
I treat my fellow humans, male or female with the same level of respect.
This isn't about geeks vs non-geeks, this about people who were never taught how to act right in civil society.
So really, what the fuck does this has to do with "geek culture" or whatever the fuck that is supposed to be?
As for the writer, go fuck yourself.
WTF are you talking about?
Seriously! Did you get PW over the weekend or did your wife and mommy tuned in to a feminazi and washed your brain really-really hard?
Be happy you are a man. For f* sake, BE A MAN! I mean a gentleman and not a some idiotic gaveman or this "modern" girlish boy (almost faggot like) with serious issues etc.
Thank the gods women and men are not equal and are different! This why women are so lovable - they are not like men, they are opposite sex!
...it's about how you were raised, what ethics and morals were instilled in your most influential years, and your overall social development. Being a "nerd" or a "geek" has nothing to do with it, except that it's generally more normal for people who are classified as such to have been socially outcast or on the fringe at some point in their early (pre-adult) lives.
This guy was a complete a-hole, that's a given. He was also from a wealthy family and had a tremendous sense of entitlement. I'd venture that a good part of his misogyny has a basis in that upbringing and entitled lifestyle.
Let's leave the labels out of it and have a real discussion about mental health and social attitudes for a change.
Some random freak shoots 4 men &2 women and blame goes to world's most men from especially from STEM fields. Only men are the problem ? Does it take only one hand to clap ? It is stupid articles like these which creates Elliot Rodgers and Valerie Solanas.
Don't know who paid this whiteknight enough money to write up such a pathetic script. Feminism is a business now which feeds lobbying groups. It destabilizes families, make society sick these days. Elliot Rodgers is a result of that.
When we can all post online as AC and have TV shows like Tosh.0 and other animated shows where all the adult males are jerks and misogynistic, it's unrealistic to expect young men to think they aren't supposed to be the same.
That and the societal breakdown created by the Entitled Techies and their CEO golf buddies.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
Assuming posting this on Slashdot was an attempt to prove verify the author's thesis. Bravo. The comment thread proves the veracity of everything he says.
Can we please avoid posting sexist drivel like this? If I want to be attacked for being my gender I would go over to SRS on reddit. I come here for tech news and this is inappropriate.
The OP's statement of living in a rape culture is elitist and needs to be toned down. We don't have a rape culture in the US. Women aren't being systematically raped as a form of control, so please stop using that term. It's melodramatic, and pointless. What we have is a geek society that is attention-hungry and immature. More and more of us are growing up with the internet, and the sense of anonymity it provides. They haven't learned simple respect of others, and that you can have competition without belittling people, and trampling their self-esteem. Plus, you have a biased media that is more focused on ratings than actual journalistic integrity. It's a media that will spend weeks to months picking apart every detail of a tragedy, and inadvertently give a person a kind of morbid immortality. Now, all that said, I don't know what the answer is. I don't think it's a black or white issue with a simple fix.
but his history is pretty weak. Up until the rise of the internet in the '90s (or possibly the "Weird Science"/"Revenge of the Nerds" era in the 1980s), nerds/geeks/otaku were right up there with gays, women and ethnic/religious minorities for being bullied, harassed and abused by the crueler edges of the mainstream. And this kind of harassment still goes on in certain areas/communities - try being a geek in a gang-ridden slum sometime.
That certainly doesn't justify a nerd perpetuating the cycle of abuse onto women or any of the other groups. But it does mean that there are better ways to engage the "nerd community" than by claiming that they aren't the subjects of abuse themselves.
We are the 198 proof..
In the military, where hyper-aggressive machoness is a valued trait and biological women are relatively rare. cf. prison.
It was a phrase coined to describe the systemic and accepted rape of men in American jails, it was and is a real problem however the feminista have co-opted the phrase to basically mean anything from a shitlord neckbeard (body shaming is OK when it's against the "oppressor") who happened to glance at a proud womyn to a comedian telling a joke to basically anything that isn't systemic and accepted rape. Feminists should fuck off and die and take their mens right counterparts with them, real people worry about equality or at the very least the plight of real opressed women in other countries, not rich "priveleged out their ass" women who wouldn't know what oppression was if it jackbooted them in the face, forever. Western feminists care about fuck all about mens issues (other than to say feminists are working on those as well, yeah OK, certainly not in Toronto they weren't) and very little about real oppression in other countries and vice versa for MRA's so they can all go fuck themselves.
Glass ceiling = not taking responsibility for our own lives and actions and always blaming others.
This is why nerd/geek girls are in such demand. They dont act like their crotch should get them a job and they have the brains to back it up.
They are the ones at the cons wearing elaborate costumes rather than the typical wannabe with her tights and cape that took all of 30 minutes to put together. Not everyone has to be a slutty superhero for the con.
Stop whining that you got groped at a con while wearing an outfit that would make satan blush.
What is this bullshit? Why is he talking about "us", how dare he try to include ALL men in this rubbish. Perhaps he needs to find better friends?
Rape culture?
Here's what rape culture is: women are many times more likely to get raped by someone they know, but they want to blame ALL MEN. That's your fucking "rape culture".
Nerds are the bad guys now? LOL! Give me a break.
Yes, there is much misogyny in nerd culture, and I am proud of it. Women have in the past, and CONTINUE to reject *authentic* nerds, and we are RIGHTLY angry about this.
I point out nerd authenticity, as there seems to be some confusion as to whether or not nerds are sexy now. They are not. What you think is nerd sexyness is hipster faggotry. Leonard on TBBT doesn't dress nerd, he dresses hipster.
Nerd culture is male, and to pretend geek girls actually exist is silly. Sure, you see chicks at conventions; Damaged girls looking for attention and/or whores trying to get their hands into your geeky wallet.
*REAL* geek girls only exist if you modify the meaning of the word. Is someone obsessed with Korean soap operas a geek? Is a polyglot a geek? Is someone obsessed with knitting a geek? No, no, and GOD NO.
"Prediction: within 10 years, Windows will be a Linux distribution." Me, 7-6-2016
So you're admitting that *you're* a homicidal misogynist? Good to know, I guess.
Really people you have it backwards the cause was no misogyny that is a symptom.
If this guy had been gay he would have hated men that did not want to sleep with him.
If this person had been a straight woman she would have hated men that would not sleep with her.
If this person had been a gay woman she would have hated women that would not sleep with her.
They key here is Narcissist. It is selfishness taken to a pathological level. People like that hate those that do not give them what they want.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
5 males and 2 females got killed.
Yeah, it's definitely a femalecentric problem.
Nerds are passionate about things- ER didn't care about anything other than means to bolster his fragile constantly damaged ego.
love is just extroverted narcissism
Boy, that escalated quickly.
Dark Reflection
Why is Elliot Rodger being put into the Nerd category? I have not seen anything on this guy that would put him in the Geek or Nerd category. What languages did he code in? What con's did he attend? What was his comic book/manga collection like? What technical degree's did he hold? This discussion has nothing to do with "misogyny entitlement nerds" but a genuine crazy kid.
Just because some guy is a Asperger social reject does not put him into the category of nerd or geek. Elliot has major issues and he blamed women and people who had social skills for his troubles. He was an entitled little shit who thought having a BMW, traveling the world and wearing $500 sweaters would automatically get him the girls. It turns out he lacked the one major component in the Get The Girl Formula that you really need, a personality. He found an outlet in Men's Rights/The Red Pill/Misogyny but he could have found an outlet in any of the other shitty beliefs that exist in our society like 9/11 conspiracies, Little Green Men and the Black President is from Kenya. Blaming a sub collection of a sub portion of our culture is not going to find the answer to the complex problem of what to do with truly mentally ill people.
Linux O Muerte!
Everyone who is visible on the internet will get vicious insults thrown at them, be they man or female. If you're on the internet, putting yourself out there on youtube videos or what ever, you need to learn to deal with it.
He mentioned that Revenge of the Nerds had a scene of what would be legally defined as rape, but there was plenty of other films around that time that featured attempted assault/rape/murder taken in a fairly light manner. it's also odd to pin that on 'nerds', as the way I understand it, the majority of rape happens in scenarios at least resembling a date or going out, both activities typically not strongly associated with nerds.
This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
So much of what is coming out of #YesAllWomen is misandry disguised as fighting misogyny. Firefox is telling me misandry isn't even a word for crying out loud.
Elliot Rodger was a mental health issue, it had nothing to do with gender. Whether he got his orders from The Beatles backwards music, Allah or porn culture, the fact is he was mentally broken. Shame on the media and shame on you for distracting from the problem, mental health issues, and making it a gender issue just to get more tweets.
Despite men in the U.S. suffering violent death at a rate more than three times that of women we get campaigns to end violence, but only against women.
He could have gotten laid for less than the cost of the gun. He could have killed just women rather than more men then women. He didn't. Misogyny is an excuse, a convenient one for people to express their misandry.
That's because this entire submission should be modded -5 Flamebait
So, nerds never get beaten up in school, then.
Back to figuring out What Is Wrong With Me ...
I bought this house and you know I'm boss
Ain't no h'aint gonna run me off
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/04/18/what-are-misogynist-geeks-so-afraid-of/
This is the 3rd post I am reading today, that has nothing to do with technology other than talking about an angry geek (this particular post, other are just similar). I knew the posting quality will decline after the resignation of R. Malda, but this is becoming ridiculous lately. Is this me or other old timers are feeling the same ?
__________
The more I know people, the more I love animals
Yes, because every mean outburst against a woman ends with her dead. Oh, wait, no it doesn't. Now, stop being an asshole.
There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
Hey Emacs vs VI is a real division in IT and not stupid, unless you use beeping VI.
I only look human.
My mother is a halfling and my dad is an ogre, so that makes me an Ogreling
If anyone is interested in reading my response to this article and my thoughts in general of this situation. Comments welcome!
http://notjoepesci.blogspot.com/2014/05/nerds-entitlement-and-intimacy-response.html
Every week I find out a new horrible thing I am and things that I didn't know I believed. As a man, I hate women. As a Caucasian, I hate minorities. As someone with a job, I hate those without jobs. As middle class, I hate the poor.
...
There must be groups out there that I can give my money to or a bunch of canned statements I can make to minimize the horrible things I'm learning about my self, right?
Forgot one! By posting this, I'm ignorant, unwilling to change and I have just amplified all of the things above, regardless of anything else I have ever said or done. I really need to start accepting the evil that is me deep within
Can someone explain rape culture to me? As a human male I don't go around raping, leering, or harassing women, am I excused from this culture on the basis of good behavior?
Writing anti-male missives won't get you laid.
Hopping on the misogyny bandwagon will not get you laid.
Until you understand the differences of what women say versus how they act, you will continue to be powerless in your quest for attention.
http://www.returnofkings.com/3...
Go fuck yourself. Seriously. You count as worse than those you accuse, because you at least recognize the existence of a bigger picture, then deliberately ignore it on one side of your equation to get the result you want.
You would paint all of geek culture with the same misogynistic brush... Are all Arabs radical jihadis? Do all women suck at sports? Do all Jews drink the blood of unbaptized Christian babies? Do all blacks rock at sports?
Free hint - When geeks / men / whites / middle-class / $majority_group_x push back against this sort of bullshit, we don't do it because we disagree with your fundamental premise; we do it because you accuse us, you accuse me of doing what you describe, solely for my membership in an extremely loosely defined social grouping, and you don't know a thing about me.
You'll have much better luck trying to make friends among those who agree with you (aside from your "socially acceptable prejudice") than by alienating 99% of the group most able to assist you in your long-term goals, right out of the gate.
I would love to, if the feminists could keep their fucking man-hating agenda out of it long enough to do so.
Giving a speech about protecting women is a different skill set than treating them fairly.
The speech-makers are trying to control other people: either with rhetoric or in many cases sexual assault.
This dude was another over-educated urbanite who needed to hear about Jesus. Not theoreticizing about social ettiquette reforms.
Uh yes, a lot of us geeks HAVE had our ownership over our bodies and our emotions stepped on constantly. A lot of us HAVE someone violently attempt to take control of our bodies in our lifetimes. I have about a dozen inch to two inch long scars on my left hand from where a locker door was repeatedly slammed on it.
Now the fact many geeks have been the victims of abuse in their past doesn't justify them turning around victimizing women who had nothing to do with it, but the problem is that they're transferring their anger onto innocent victims, not necessarily that they're upset to begin with.
So apparently if you're a standard frustrated angry geeky guy you need to have a manifesto? Damn. Guess I missed that memo.
Boy, that escalated quickly.
Because this whole discussion is silly. Plenty of nerds are misogynistic jerks. But plenty of non-nerds are as well, and I have seen NO evidence that it is any more common among nerds than among the population in general. In the absence of evidence, associating "nerd culture" with misogynism is just stupid.
Throughout my career, I have worked with many engineers, programmers, and other nerds. My experience is that they are the least misogynistic people I have ever met, and they have mostly been polite, professional, and welcoming to their female co-workers. Have you ever worked with salesmen? Or construction workers? Nerds are saints by comparison.
It’s a standard frustrated angry geeky guy manifesto, except for the part
Except for the part where it isn't. The manifesto is a lot of things. It's a case study in narcissistic personality disorder, antisocial personality disorder, borderline personality disorder, social anxiety disorder...you name it, it's in there, and you can spin it however you want.
The kid played WoW, so he must be a geek.
Never mind that he didn't excel in academics, that he never showed any interest in science, mathematics or technology, that he took a handful of liberal arts courses that he had to drop because the only thing he could concentrate on were girls. Does that sound like a geek? No, to me it pretty much sounds like everybody who isn't a geek.
While we can't mod submission, feel free to foe submitter - PvtVoid (1252388).
I'm tired of being told I should be ashamed of how I feel simply because it makes others feel ashamed about society as a whole.
Is there a way to get this submission removed? There is so much wrong with this idiotic article. It doesn't belong on Slashdot.
After Columbine, with reports (true or not) that the killers had been bullied, nobody took that to mean that the anti-bullying crowd is dangerous or that people who claim to be victims of bullies are really just misanthropic killers. "Geeks who don't like to be bullied are part of a murder culture".
(Well, I'm sure some people took it to mean that, but we recognize that they're being assholes about it.)
But replace "bullied" with "rejected by women" and all of a sudden it means there is rampant misogyny among angry geeks. No, it's not, it means that if a lot of people are rejected by society, a few of them will become killers. This doesn't mean that the complaints about rejection are wrong, or that geeks with such complaints are dangerous, any more than Columbine showed that complaints about bullies are wrong, or that a higher murder rate when unemployment goes up shows that we should ignore unemployment. (What's the unemployment equivalent to rape culture?)
Show me the data. Chu argues that there's a cultural bias in the nerd culture which exacerbates the problem. Bring a counter-argument, not a strawman.
..."women seem wicked when you're unwanted."
Telling a bunch of people to "just stop" fails to address the underlying causes.
Geeks are frustrated because they don't have good luck with women. Rejection and loneliness results in the misogyny and creepiness lamented here. As a matter of mental self-defense, geeks decide that women are turned off by intelligence, and they (despite themselves) go around demanding that women should smarten-up and start finding intelligence sexy. Well, this is incorrect.
Women aren't turned off by intelligence. They are turned off by constantly being made to feel stupid. They are also turned off by bad social skills, bad physical health, and the inclination to play video games and study all day every day (rather than going out and doing something fun with friends).
If you want to get a real girlfriend, you are going to have to get over your sense of superiority, practice authentic humility, and be ready to give up a lot of your video-game time and study-time to instead go out on social events with a group of mutual friends, on a regular basis. Clean up your act, become what women want, and *then* you might get one. If you aren't willing to do this, then you have no business demanding that women start putting up with a bunch of stuff they don't like so they can have the privilege of being with you.
Yes. Let's talk about nerds, rape culture, video game violence, gun control, so on. Mental Illness drives people to construct elaborate, semi-coherent stories for what they are feeling and why. Mental Illness drives someone to drive down the street shooting others in the back. It isn't anything else that causes this.
The facts of this situation as this: A man has a mental illness he doesn't recognize in himself, so he doesn't get the help he needs. He spirals out of control as a result, because our society pretends mental illness doesn't exist and offers no control mechanism for dealing with it until someone has already broken the law. He breaks the law, so now we deal with it.
Sometimes, the person knows they are mentally ill and can't get the help they need because it costs a lot of money and they have trouble holding down a job because they are mentally ill and we offer very limited means for someone who is mentally ill to be able to hold down a job.
What is the problem here? We ignore mental illness and we treat those who suffer from it like they don't exist, all while allowing obvious risks to walk the street unchecked. That's the problem here. Not rape culture, not nerds being bullied, not gun control, not violence in our culture: a sane person can deal with these things reasonably. We need to address the problem.
First of all, let's point out the obvious: Rodgers killed twice as many men as women.
Which doesn't mean I'm saying violence against women isn't a serious problem, or that I don't care about the two women he killed. Gad are we really that simple-minded that it has to be one or the other? I'm only saying that Rodgers shouldn't be held up as THE paradigm for the way men treat women. Rodgers knew when he posted his manifesto that he was, in effect, writing his own obituary. He deliberately framed his future actions in full, cynical knowledge of society's sexism.
Let me make what should be an obvious point here: we shouldn't accept Rodgers' framing of his actions, for the simple reason he was a twisted person with a nasty agenda. Yes, his stated views on women were ugly, but going by his actions he hated *humanity* and chose targets of opportunity. He not only robbed James Hong, George Chen, David Wang and Christopher Michael-Martinez of collectively some two hundred years of lifespan. He successfully exploited our knee-jerk credulity so as to erase those kids from our consciousness as victims of his crimes.
As for "what is wrong with nerds?", that begs the question. Is there a problem with "nerds"? What is a "nerd" anyway?
The reason for media nerd chic is that feeling marginalized is ironically something most people can identify with. So is feeling emotionally vulnerable, and sometimes even isolated. And we all make regrettable and sometimes embarrassing mistakes in conducting our relationships with other people. But that doesn't mean we can't understand that "no means no", or that it's unpleasant and threatening to have unwanted attentions forced on you.
So if by "nerd" you mean "aggressively unpleasant person who blames other people for their reaction to his obnoxious behavior," well most of us aren't that kind of "nerd". The blockhead opinions of people like that have nothing to do with us.
If by "nerd" you mean "non-coformist who'd rather live with some degree of social marginalization than not act like himself," then you have to show us that this is tantamount to being an obnoxious and possibly violent twerp, which I don't think it is.
Those idiots who cheered Rodgers on are not my fault either. Maybe they're in part my problem, as they are a problem for everyone who has to live in the same society as they do. I may feel *concern* over their actions, but I don't feel a shred of guilt. Somebody else made them blockheads, not me.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
comment not really related but i kinda suffer from mental abuse ie yelling and name-calling. its the adults who are mean. come now, they should be nicer to the younger generation. aunt says i'm skinny. but she says that every stinking time she sees me.. like on Memorial day. i'm like, uh.. its not my eating habbits.. its my metabolism. then she talks to my parents and gives them dietary advice.. every day. enough with call me skinny lady! how would you feel if I called you fat and gave you advice to loose 15 pounds??
older relatives yell at me to find a job even though I tell them that no one calls me for an interview. Other people say that they are entitled to work but I am not because I have a chronic health issue and a bad knee. some relatives brag that they have a masters degree, retire when they are 40 and let their spouse continue working until the spouse is 75. WTF? really? Husband is 75 but wife is 75 and still working.
yeah, i'm a nerd. people pick on me because I am unemployed, not by choice. yet people still curse at me call me good for nothing ect... and these people have a masters degree and are 40 years older than me and retired. shame on them. another relative said he wasted money paying for my college. Umm.. not really my fault that no one is hiring in this small town. Maybe he should pay me to move to the big city where there are more jobs?? Hello?!
at least my friends on Facebook are symathetic unlike my relatives. actually, moving away from my relatives might not be a bad idea. just need the money first for apartment rent.
man, I'm just repeating my self. sorry, had to rant even if it was kinda off-topic. but yeah, I'm a nerd but I don't go around bullying people or giving advice unless people ask for it.
ok, bye
They're all at 5 and you're at 0. I would expect nothing less from the losers that now populate this site.
tech culture is ripe for a revolution against the basement-dwelling dork-country club pissing contest that is tech work
but this ain't it...
tech dorks problems are not the same as the UCSB killers problems
they have **similarities** but these murders are not indicative of something about tech workers
the only similarity is that both the UCSB killer and tech dorks are antagonistic to women
tech culture hates women and it resents the sensabilities they bring to a project....that's awful....but TFA does nothing to solve that
Thank you Dave Raggett
Instead there has been a long steady reduction in rape in this country that has lasted for decades and we are now down to the same rate it was in 1970.
So the data says rape is reducing down to 40 year lows...and yet the rhetoric is getting screechingly loud. Why is that?
http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=datool&surl=/arrests/index.cfm#
--Filter on "All-Ages" and "Forcible Rape".
I don't get it. We are far better off, yet we need to scream about how bad it is? I am perplexed?
blah
It does give me the right to call bullshit on anyone who claims that this incident targeted primarily females.
but you can suck a bag of dicks.
It's normal and natural for someone to feel frustrated when he or she has difficulty finding someone to date. It's normal to feel rejected when you get rejected. It's normal to resent being overlooked.
At one time or another, most if not all people have felt this way.
Because I have a male point of view, I'm going to add that it's normal for men to be frustrated and bewildered by the disconnect between what women say they want in a man and what kind of men they actually date.
Obviously, violence should never result from these feelings. This frustration should be motivation for self improvement.
The response should be more along the lines of "Oh, you're not interested? ok. Take care."
Me, I use the women who ignored me and the bitches who used me as motivation to treat the woman in my life even better.
My point is that being frustrated and angry are alright just so long as you don't cross the line and start hurting people.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
Perhaps its the geek culture that attracts misogynists. Or at last that slice of misogynists that wants to retreat from mixed social or work groups because the IT department has been a male bastion. But then there are a lot of different cultures that have their own subset of women haters. Traditional blue collar professions had their own memes surrounding the idea that women just can't do the job, so they are not welcome on the construction site (other than as the cute secretary in the foreman's trailer). When women did start appearing, a subset of men refused to judge them on their abilities. Same thing in traditional engineering professions back in the old days. "Women can't do math" or "don't have the requisite spatial/mechanical skills". I've heard it all before in my travels through the aforementioned professions.
The geek persona just expresses misogyny in one particular fashion that seems to stand out more in our society. So it gets attention. I don't see the alpha male or controlling sociopath cultures being singled out. But the attitude that women are here to serve men at their pleasure or comply with their wishes is every bit as bad as that of people who are just trying to retreat to a corner of their lives where they don't have to deal with women as equals. In fact, these other types of men are possibly more dangerous in that they seek out women to dominate.
Perhaps the issue should be our tolerance of all forms of misogyny. The geek expression of it has been in the news lately, but that may only be because the other forms have become more or less typical behaviors in our society.
Have gnu, will travel.
I don't have any problems dating or getting laid. Seems I've had a girlfriend or two every moment since I kicked my ex wife out. I think you're all a bunch of fucking weirdos.
Women are human beings. And YOU are an ass. There, fixed that for you.
1 of them is an asshole.
Result--- all nerds are assholes.
I've been to conventions. I've seen the way that nerds interact with the females there. And the number of assholes is way under 1%.
She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
Boy, that escalated quickly.
It could be worse. Someone could have brought up Hitler. ...
Dammit.
Nerds are a hard to define group of persons. Depending on the kind of group of people, nerds have different properties. In some context it is used as a term of honor, while other use the term to decry someone. In the article I assume to a different definition of nerd is referred to. A nerd is there a person with low self-esteem. Someone who thinks suppressed, mobbed or ignored by others. They are a little closer to the autistic side and they feel uncomfortable around other people. Even more when those people are not nerds too.
The male version of such nerds tend to have had not much experience with women and might not know how to act proper around them. They might be even aware of this fact. They might even understand the psychology of mating rituals, but as they lack the intuition (which comes from practice and success) they have an unsatisfied need in that context.
A mental solution to fix this from a personal point of view is to imitate successful role models. These figures can come from the real world or from TV, books, videos and even games. However, these role models are mostly incompatible with the present and often not compatible with any culture on earth to any given time. Nevertheless, they often carry an image of women as "bitches" or "slaves", which can result in a male behavior which is highly inappropriate.
Another solution from a personal view is projection of self-hate onto others. Example: From "I hate me for not having sex with women" the nerd makes the switch to "I hate women for rejecting me". This even works when he was not actively rejected but ignored.
Both strategies can even used together for a maximum of awkwardness and hate.
Please do not misinterpret this as "He hates nerds". I don't. I am one myself. Even though I chose a third solution and after decades I tried a fourth that worked and now I am a normal person ;-)
The third solution is suggesting to yourself that you are not interested in women beside being a friend. I tried that from 20 to 35, which worked perfectly in the beginning because I had my first girlfriend shortly after I switched to that scheme. However, that relationship only worked for some month and was totally unsatisfactorily for the next 15 years. Then I decided that a new scheme might work even better. I could try to be polite and ask women out, but first I should not look like an unwashed yeti from under the bridge. And that really worked. It would also work with people who have chosen method one or two. However, they need first to accept who they are and then accept that women are humans and equals. And acceptance is not achieved by saying it but by meaning it. If you have any trouble with that: See a shrink. I did (somehow). It worked.
Rapist. Misogynist. Nerd. All labels.
You can apply them to individuals specific criteria. Have you raped? You're a rapist. Do you hate all females? Mysogynist. Overly intellectual, obsessive, or socially impaired? Nerd.
However. The existence of Nerd Mysoginists does not make all members of the Nerd set into Mysoginists. The existence of Rapist Misogynists does not mean that all Misogynists are Rapists.
The author has a problem with Mysoginists. Hating women is not part of any nerd culture I've ever seen or participated in.
You are the exact reason it does.
There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
It does give me the right to call bullshit on anyone who claims that this incident targeted primarily females.
I think you should watch the shooter's Youtube movie. After that, you're more than welcome to come back here and apologize.
Spoiler: he clearly states he seeks revenge on the girls for making him feel lonely, unwanted, and being a virgin well in his twenties. He had never even kissed a girl. Obligatory.
I'm not a complete idiot... Some parts are missing.
That so? Please do explain. And then go back to tumblr and blog about it.
I've never done any of that crap. No, f'reals. I was raised very poorly by a single mother in Santa Cruz, home of excessive political correctness, but part of the good that came out of it is a clear sense of boundaries by getting that shit rammed into my head plenty. I postulate that I could have gotten laid more in my life if I did some of that, but the reward ain't worth the price. Obviously he's feeling guilty though.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Too bad there are no actual females posting in response to this.... My thoughts, in summary - I don't think Arthur Chu was looking to blame ALL nerds for harassing women. I believe anyone who thinks that is missing the point. His point, as I understand it, is that if you *are* harassing, disrespecting, or abusing women, or even "just" issuing misogynistic comments, you should cease to do so. If you hear or see this type of behavior, call it out. Yes, ALL women have been harassed (at a very minimum) at some point in their lives (hence "#YesAllWomen"). No, not all of them have not been harassed or abused by nerds. But some have. So cut that shit out (IF YOU ARE DOING IT). And if you're not, well, good for you!
"We are not the ones who have our ownership over our bodies and our emotions stepped on constantly by other people's entitlement. We're not the ones where one out of six of us will have someone violently attempt to take control of our bodies in our lifetimes.'"
Are you sure?
I mean: I've never been raped. That's a legitimate fear of many women that I'm unlikely to experience outside the penal system. But I've been shoved into walls. I've been dumped in a trash can (that was when I was 5 years old). I've had notebooks knocked from me, signs put on me, been punched, kicked, had my property vandalized, been ridiculed publicly, shot with a slingshot, hit with a car.... all for having been the different kid. All for having been the nerd.
Will I ever *really* know what it's like to be a woman? No. Will a straght woman know what a homosexual man goes through? Will a white person understand the plight of a black one? Will the Jock understand the Nerd? No. Will an American Christian understand the Muslim, Wiccan, or Athiest? No.
There are a lot of cultures of violence; not just the one against women. There are a lot of cultures that dehumanize, not just the one that dehumanizes women. The talking heads on this subject take an unjustified position of universal and unique persecution. Men should look at women as people, while simultaniously the talking head saying it doesn't look at men as people.
And as to this narccissitic murderer. I've no doubt he was masogynist, but it's wrong to say that he was the product of that culture. I've seen this guy before. He's the two kids at Columbine. He's the postal worker that went after his bosses. He suffers from narccissism and a feeling of persecution (which may have at least some level of truth) and blames others for his misfortune. In Columbine it was jocks. With many, it's their boss or neighbor. For this kid it was women (among others: He also lashes out at a lack of friends. IIRC: The majority of his victims were male).
So yes: There's a real problem with a culture in the US that dehumanizes women. It's real. It's bad. It needs to be fixed. It is, however, not unique; and it is not the reason for this particular murder spree.
I came in expecting a bunch of hand-waving denials, cries of "WHAT ABOUT MEN'S RIGHTS?!?!", and other such nonsense and I was not disappointed!
Women in tech/nerd circles generally face a lot more BS than a man would in the identical situation. That continues to go on because some of us seem to think this is an attack or indictment and refuse to acknowledge it.
Here's a pro tip: the guys who grab women's breasts, stand immediately in front of a woman when they're the only two in the elevator (blocking her exit), start asking sexually-charged questions, follow her around after a meeting, or even just the ones who automatically dismiss anything a female developer says.... They don't generally act like jerks in plain view. When they do, those of us who do care sit by silently; when the manager pats a female developer on the head and tells her not to worry about it, a lot of guys just laugh or ignore it.
You may think it doesn't happen but ask the women in your group how many times people have treated them like children, dismissed them, or behaved in a really creepy way even after being asked to stop **. Ask any reasonably well-known geek girl to show you her "death & rape threat" tweet or email folder and you'll see hundreds or thousands of them.
** I've personally seen it many times; once I even witnessed a guy ask a female geek how many guys she had slept with, then get righteously offended and angry when she said that was an inappropriate question. (To my own younger self's shame I did not step in and call him out at the time - something I regret). Women often feel they can't speak up about anything that happens to them because they are loudly shouted down as liars, whores, or met with complete denial. Even asking someone politely to stop being a creep can elicit angry self-righteous replies.
I think the refusal to see the issue and complete denial stems from fear - the fear that this will spiral into some out-of-control political correctness where we can't tell a joke, give a compliment, or even chat up women anymore. As far as I can tell that's just a manufactured fear with no basis in reality. The creepy angle also comes from guys who feel they are unable to approach women, but prominent and famous women are "known" to them, a sort of false relationship we all can tend to feel we have with the public figures in our lives. In that situation they act far more familiar than they otherwise would.
So here's a simple thing you can do: make your tech meetups friendly toward women. If you see another guy acting creepy, call him out on it. If you find yourself objecting to a technical point raised by a female developer, just take a half a second to think "would I object if it were Bob asking instead of Alice?". Stop letting the bad apples spoil the whole bunch, and worse - teach the young men and women in tech that this behavior is acceptable. Most of all, stop denying there's a problem.
I bet if even 5% of the male developers spoke out against the negative behavior and actively supported women in tech, we could completely eliminate this issue almost overnight.
Natural != (nontoxic || beneficial)
yea no shit right.... This Chu is a fucking moron.
....said a loser who now populates this site.
SJW's don't eliminate discrimination. They just expropriate it for themselves.
Great argument. Made an awesome showing of yourself there. Go man-hate somewhere else.
Excuse me, but Nerds *rarely* act out their fantasies. Football players, on the other hand, rape constantly and GET AWAY WITH IT, because they are football players.
We, as a culture, have elevated football to almost god-hood, and when High-school footballers raped a drunk girl, an entire town CONSPIRED to cover the whole thing up, until some "nerds" hacked the phones of the footballers for evidence and made national news, and the town couldn't hide it anymore.
Excuse me, but 99 times out of 100 it's the nerds who keep to themselves and don't harm a fly, while with Jocks you can turn that number on its head. 99 times out 100 they will beat up, rape, and basically do whatever they hell they feel like.
Stop taking this one incident and applying it to nerd culture. You might as well be taking this one incident and applying it to all gun culture or all american culture.
If telephones are outlawed, then only outlaws will have telephones.
Boy, that escalated quickly.
It could be worse. Someone could have brought up Hitler. ...
Dammit.
No worries, it doesn't count as a Godwin until you actually compare someone to Hitler.
Carry on.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
I haven't posted on Slashdot in years, but the response to this story made me want to come out of the woodwork.
So far In the comments I've seen:
--He isn't really a nerd! NOFP!
--Nerds don't hit on girls, so NOFP!
--He's using a stereotype! I'm not that guy, so NMFP!
I'm a woman working in a technical field and I've been at this game since 1996. In my current company, the men here outnumber me 9-1. When you add in a love of geeky pursuits (at one convention, I remember counting 3 women in a group of 500 men), I've spent a lot of time being one of the guys.
In the beginning, it was exciting -- thrilling!-- to be the only woman in a meeting. I was the exception! I was going to make it! I was better than those girly-girls with their silly pursuits. But, not only do I realize that was a stupid-ass position that reinforced the perceptions of women's interests being lesser than men, I'm just tired of it. Tired of little backhanded bullshit comments. Tired of having to laugh at stupid sexist shit to be one of the boys. And especially tired of being told there's no problem. And this is not just me. Again, it's necessarily a small data pool (see % above), but I've never met a woman who didn't have at least 3 stories about bullshit at work. http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04...
Again, it's not that I can't hack it. I can. This isn't a poor me, come and save me post. At this point, my hide is tempered steel -- fucking bring it, world. It's that I shouldn't have to, and as I said above, it's fucking exhausting.
And it's more than just eating shit at work: We live in a world where literally yesterday a woman was stoned to death by her family for failing to live her life they way they wanted. (http://www.cnn.com/2014/05/28/world/asia/pakistan-pregnant-woman-killed/) . Our culture shames a woman for accepting sexual advances and blames her if she rejects them (http://nypost.com/cover/#covers-1401159702). There is literally no way to win as a woman.
Look, guys. Even if you've done a ton of soul searching, and you genuinely believe you're not part of the problem, go to the next step. The women around you are hurting. They're exhausted. They're being gaslighted (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting) left, right and center. So if you genuinely think you're not making things works, figure out how to make it better. Find a woman to mentor. If you're in a meeting, and a woman's voice isn't getting heard, help her (although, please avoid mansplaining (i.e. "What Jane really means to say is...."). If someone say some bullshit about women in your workplace, call them out on it.
Sorry for this long cri de coeur, but you guys are my peeps and the responses broke my heart. You're my guys, my people, my tribe. Can't you back us up?
"...you can steal my woman, but you ain't done nuthin' smart."
Women are just as abusive and disgusting as men, which is why I find it hilarious they need so many white knights coming to their rescue. 9 times out of 10 a social justice warrior (SJW) preaching about better treatment of women are just abusive homosexuals in disguise promoting tolerance through force and using women as their scapegoat. They are are the Black Panthers of the neo-geek culture.
Men, especially nerds, are horrible, mean, vicious people and all men should be treated as such at all times. Women, on the other hands, are always innocent victims of abuse, are always under threat, and must live their lives like they are about to be raped because men.
So, women, do us all a favor, and just stop. Stop interacting with men. Stop talking to men, stop dating men, stop having sex with men, stop marrying men. Just stop, because if you hate and fear men so much that is exactly what any sane person would do.
I am so fucking sick and tired of hearing how there is something intrinsically wrong with me and that I should be feared because I have a Y chromosome. Fuck you too. I haven't hit, let alone raped, any woman, ever. I have been hit three times by a woman and not once did I retaliate as I could have. I took it. But, if I had hit her back, I would have been the bad guy.
If women wouldn't reward the behavior of bad men, then there wouldn't be so many bad men, but, as we know, women love bad boys right up until that bad boy is bad to them. When that happens to a woman, she thinks back to all the bad men she has dated and concludes all men are bad because the problem couldn't possibly her and her choices.
Don't want to be abused or get raped? Don't be friends with or date immature, over-entitled, sociopathic bad boys with a history of hurting other people including women. Start looking at character instead of abs, or clothes, or height or cars. Stop going to clubs, getting wasted, and giving your number to that hot guy in the sick shirt, let alone banging him in a one night stand. Find a better place to meet guys or shut the fuck up about how horrible the men you fuck are because that is you having shallow and/or bad taste.
Oh, and when you get drunk and then go home and fuck a guy, you weren't raped. You were irresponsible. If you can't keep your panties on and legs closed when you get drunk, don't get drunk.
There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
Not only is he unfairly dissing nerds, he's also being unfair to men. Whats with this idea that women on the whole are the more virtuous sex? Seems sort of an oldfashioned notion to me. Women can and are just as dirty, underhanded, and evil as men. Its just that they tend to exercise their power more through social and psychological means and not through bruteforce as much.
The difference is that those groups aren't as self-blaming as nerds are, and they aren't so quick to take the bait. It's like if you gathered a bunch of guys in a room and shouted "misogynist!" and the nerd amongst them said, "I'm sorry!" even though he didn't really do anything.
A fool and his hard drive are soon parted.
Boy, that escalated quickly.
It could be worse. Someone could have brought up Hitler. ...
Dammit.
No worries, it doesn't count as a Godwin until you actually compare someone to Hitler.
Carry on.
What are you, some kind of meme Nazi???
Just read through the comments in Four Weeks Without Soap Or Shampoo, http://tech.slashdot.org/story...
Some examples, modded to 5 stars: "She sounds hideous." "A 4 week test on something related to skin and they used a female journalist? Could by chance her skin complexion improved because of her menstrual cycle? There's about a 75% chance that she wasn't coming off of her period right before application so of course she probably noticed improvements to her skin, especially her face, over a 4 week test."
OMG, she's ... the other! Her appearance and aroma are what make her of interest to me! Menstruation! Blaaaargh cooties!
Some of the comments that were modded less than 5 were ... ummm ... well, yeah. Worse.
Seriously, folks? Seriously? Aren't nerds supposed to smart? Educated? Sensitive towards bullying?
There's an obnoxious sense of entitlement and superiority in some parts of nerd culture that isn't worthy.
You, sir, are worse than Hitler.
Well... maybe of a very thinly spread argument... on your part.
As for proof of a widespread pedophilia culture, I suggest you read this article analyzing the topic as it is treated in the DSM-V
That article describes a slight change in definition of pedophilia AS A MENTAL DISORDER.
Which "proves" a "widespread pedophilia culture" about as much as a redefinition of a unicorn as "naturally occurring horse-like creature with a single horn in its forehead, possessing as of present date scientifically unexplained powers" - proves a widespread existence of unicorns.
It's a redefinition trying to address the question "If and adult does NOT have a sexual intercourse with a child in the forest, though he or she MAY feel a desire to, and nobody else is there to NOT see or hear it - does that person actually have a mental disorder that needs treatment?"
It's a proof of someone realizing that, whodathunkit, some people manage to control their urges.
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
"Why aren't you entitled, smelly nerds kissing their radical-feminist feet? You dare argue with the radical left, misogynist pig?" Ugh. Why does he always post this shit? Well, the 250+ comments might have something to do with it, but considering they're largely all "yeah this is bullshit," this seems like a pretty clear case of clickbait. Or he honestly believes this garbage and uses /. as a platform to push his shitty political view. I don't know which is worse.
There are few phrases that make me close a tab quicker.
1. Article author is white-knighting and pandering for attention.
2, The shooter wasn't a nerd, he was a narcissist.
3. Nerds are an easy target in this case as they are unlikely to drive over to where you are and shoot you.
Not all behaviors are equal and this screed conflates so many different behaviors that it is incoherent nonsense.
Let's consult the Lexicon: Portrait of J. Random Hacker (from usenet trial-baloon)
Gender and Ethnicity
Hackerdom is still predominantly male. However, the percentage of women is clearly higher than the low-single-digit range typical for technical professions, and female hackers are generally respected and dealt with as equals.
In the U.S., hackerdom is predominantly Caucasian with strong minorities of Jews (East Coast) and Orientals (West Coast). The Jewish contingent has exerted a particularly pervasive cultural influence (see Food, above, and note that several common jargon terms are obviously mutated Yiddish).
The ethnic distribution of hackers is understood by them to be a function of which ethnic groups tend to seek and value education. Racial and ethnic prejudice is notably uncommon and tends to be met with freezing contempt.
When asked, hackers often ascribe their culture's gender- and color-blindness to a positive effect of text-only network channels, and this is doubtless a powerful influence. Also, the ties many hackers have to AI research and SF literature may have helped them to develop an idea of personhood that is inclusive rather than exclusive — after all, if one's imagination readily grants full human rights to future AI programs, robots, dolphins, and extraterrestrial aliens, mere color and gender can't seem very important any more.
I came back after a 10 year hiatus when the IT department started blocking my regular sites. This site is a pathetic shadow of what it once was.
And it's all yours now.
I'd further paraphrase John Oliver: Listen up, fellow self-pitying nerd boys — In the past, we WERE victims. We WERE underdogs. We WERE ones who were bullied and ridiculed and tormented because of who we were and what we liked. We were excluded from groups because we weren't "cool enough." We should know how it feels when someone does this to you and, thus, should NEVER, EVER do this to another human being. We should NEVER exclude someone because we deem them "not knowledgeable enough" (especially not if that's the "cover excuse" with the real reason being that they are a different gender). We should never tell someone that they are asking for the treatment that some jerks are giving them because of who they are or how they are dressed. Did we deserve being tormented on a daily basis because we liked Star Trek or played D&D? We definitely shouldn't be those jerks who think that forcing themselves on a person is somehow "all in good fun." (If you're going to exclude anyone from geek culture, exclude those jerks. IMO, anyone who thinks bullying someone - or worse - is acceptable behavior isn't a "real geek.") Furthermore, if we see EVER someone treating another human being in this manner, we should leap to their aid immediately. This isn't a man/woman thing either. It should be a "decent human" thing.
My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
For all the misogynists who have been responding to this as "flamebait," let this 73 y.o. woman (in the industry for 57 years) speak the truth: YOU ARE THE PROBLEM!
/. I don't ask what you believe. I observe your behavior and deduce what you believe, as does every thinking adult.
--Carol Anne
I have been gracefully mentored and respected by great men, among them Bill Orchard-Hayes and Eli Hellerman. In my career I have been spat upon, and ignored and insulted by more male technologists I can care to count. The best time of my life was for a decade--while consulting with Fortune 500 CxO-level men--who responded to me on the basis of the quality and relevance of my contributions. In those same companies, I was subjected to multiple indignities by young males who complained that I was getting heard, and they weren't. There's truth in the idea that women (in technology, at least, that's where I've spent my life) have to work twice as hard to be considered half as good.
While I've never been physically assaulted, I sympathize with those who have been (whether female or male, or in-between). The problem is with the anger of the attacker, not the gender of the victim. Many men (and many men in this forum, and in our industry) need a good dose of sensitivity training.
Remember, should you choose to respond to this post, that I will be assessing whether you are sensitive or crass, smart or dumb, considerate or inconsiderate, human or subhuman. It's your intrinsic values on show here in
I think you nailed it; 100% agree.
This all falls well within the not-my-problem camp. There are problems in this world that are not mine, nor are they not my responsibility to solve. There are plenty of women alive to solve them. And if 1 in 6 have this problem, then there are literally hundreds of millions to solve them. Why the hell do you need me to do anything? If 1 in 6 women is too lazy to do anything about it, then really it doesn't fall on me to solve the problem for them.
I've got problems of my own, and I don't ask 1 in 6 women to solve them for me. I think they are more than capable of solving this one for themselves.
Last I checked, male university students don't get free escorts home at night, yet female university students around here do.
Me solving their problems would go against everything they fought for. I supported women's equal rights. Let them enjoy their equal rights.
They have the equal right to solve their own problems. I sure as hell won't fight their battles for them.
You forgot to say "Fuck Beta!" before you took your ball and went home.
SJW's don't eliminate discrimination. They just expropriate it for themselves.
He's one nutjob who had mental issues. I don't ascribe anything in his story to male-female relations in general. I got through about 10 seconds of his rant and couldn't tolerate his smug entitlement. Lots of people have dating problems. Very few of them write manifestos and even fewer start killing.
I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
More men died during his spree than women. It doesn't matter what he said, it matter what he did.
In what might have been a fit of irony, Rodgers tried killing some sorority girls who rejected him, but they didn't notice him at the door so he left.
As far as "not my problem" goes, I think being a good person involves two things: 1) Treating others with respect and 2) Standing up when others aren't treated with respect. You and I might have the first one down, but we've got to be vigilant not to shrug off idiots like Rodgers when we see their behavior first-hand. Instead, we need to stand up and tell these people that this behavior is NOT appropriate at all.
My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
As one of the many geeks who was physically attacked in my school days, I'm going to call bullshit. Sure, I might wager a majority of geek guys will not be sexually assaulted in their lifetimes (assuming you discount such activities as "sack tagging" or having people attempt to stick things in your butt without your permission) but getting beat up is practically a staple experience of being a geek. Just because it isn't necessarily sexual in nature doesn't make it any less of a violation of one's person.
Maybe the point is not to associate nerd culture with misogyny, but to say that nerd culture also has its fair share of misogyny, and as nerds we should be examining that because it's our culture. Other cultures have their own problems, and perhaps some of the same problems, but those are their problems to deal with.
1. There is no such thing as 'rape culture' or 'patriarchy.' In any other circumstance we'd view this kind of thinking as conspiracy. Like the other marxist isms, feminism needs a bogey man to justify the crazy inroads it demands on the 'oppressor' class, ie men. It needs to be something illusory, diffuse and easily redefinable so that any accusation or concession seems reasonable, no matter what. Feminists chose rape for this and now we have these girls running around thinking they're victims because a guy looked at them in a hallway, or were asked out in an elevator. (youtube elevatorgate).
A perfect example of how marxist ideologues target societies, organizations, and corporations on the rise. This particular example is the atheist conference scene, but the same tactics are applied everywhere.
http://www.youtube.com/playlis...
2. Enough of the victimhood bullshit. I tire of being labeled an 'oppressor' because of my sex or my skin tone. Don't tell me to check my privilege. Instead, try making cogent counterarguments if you believe me to be in error. If anything, this completely biased definition of 'equality' has given women the privilege. They can lean on chivalry of men (which is still expected) and/or on 'empowerment' whenever it suits them and society will back their play. Perhaps it's time for these feminists to check their privilege. The proof for it isn't some conspiracy theory. They get preferential treatment at college, in employment, in courts of law, in 'family' court, and in the street. It's in the law and its precedent, in the prison system, and in the homeless population, all male dominated. It's there every time she decides to have the kid while knowing full well neither of them have the money, dragging him (and the taxpayer) into destitution with her. Maybe I'll start giving a shit when "Her body, her right, her choice" also becomes "her responsibility" instead of his.
3. That 1/6 ratio is bullshit. If that were true, police stations around the country would be inundated with complaints of rape. That's not the case.
Quit shaming men, regardless of their social proclivities. Quit lying about them too. One out of six men are NOT rapists. Chu must have a crazy self loathing complex to write what he did. Every nerd or geek I've known was so timid and shy around women, it's HIGHLY unlikely that they'd have the balls to talk to or proposition women, nevermind 'rape' (and I use that term loosely) them. These rampant attacks by feminism on gaming and other nerd/geek culture is a recent thing, but it's just making the bullshit fallacies it makes everywhere.
Boy, that escalated quickly.
Because this whole discussion is silly. Plenty of nerds are misogynistic jerks. But plenty of non-nerds are as well, and I have seen NO evidence that it is any more common among nerds than among the population in general. In the absence of evidence, associating "nerd culture" with misogynism is just stupid.
First let me say that I agree that this discussion is pretty silly. That being said, "because someone else does it too" is not a valid justification of bad behavior. And frankly with the supposed intellectual superiority that many (not all) profess, it's even less acceptable. I have a lot harder time forgiving someone for doing something wrong that they understood was wrong, than someone who doesn't even know what they did was wrong in the first place.
Throughout my career, I have worked with many engineers, programmers, and other nerds. My experience is that they are the least misogynistic people I have ever met, and they have mostly been polite, professional, and welcoming to their female co-workers.
In general I would agree with you. However the ones who were not professional were so far past appropriate it was cringe inducing as they self rationalized their behavior as being perfectly acceptable.
Have you ever worked with salesmen? Or construction workers? Nerds are saints by comparison.
Yes and yes. While I would agree that proportionally those groups may contain more people who are likely to say something inappropriate. They also tend to accept that they did something wrong when it's pointed out to them and even apologize for being offensive. I've seen many more "nerds" argue this point.
He did bring up some good points, and shy nerds do have a hard time getting any girl. And once you are desirable in your 30s, what 30-something woman would put up with someone with no relationship experience? It is a big problem with modern day dating and relationships, and there are a lot of people out there like this guy. Now, they don't all kill a lot of other people, but I bet a lot of suicides happen to this type of guy.
And I do think women have some of the blame here. Real Life isn't like The Big Bang Theory where 4 nerds all get hot girlfriends. I would tell teenage boys to not go into STEM programs in college because your chances of getting laid are greatly reduced. And since the feminist movement didn't promote sleeping with intelligent men or stable men. You get the mess that is the dating scene today.
Are misleading and useless.
But if you're worried about the stats, the combined rates of women get raped or murdered is still lower than the rate of men getting murdered. Do, not such a massive problem.
Tell you what, when geeks start killing people in the same numbers as pretty much any other group then you can lay this at our feet like we have a problem.
I'm pretty sure that per capita we're a pretty peaceful group. So how about this society... how about you apologize you apologize first?
I'm sure there are more mothers that have drowned their babies then there are geeks that have gone on murder sprees... So how about it mothers, care to apologize for your culture of violence and hate?
I thought not.
This whole thing is vastly over blown.
You want to know who is responsible? Crazy people.
Literally just people off their meds. You'll find them in every demographic. And it doesn't matter who they are... an 80 old lady so inclined could kill a lot of people. In fact, there have been little old lady serial killers. They tend to do it with poison.
But the point is that the geek culture such as it is, bears no responsibility for what is committed by literally ONE guy.
I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
Can you explain why Zionists see heterosexual men as a threat to their ideology? I thought Zionists were anti-homosexual and pro-heterosexual?
If you are saying Zionists when you mean Jews, they are also anti-homosexual and pro-heterosexual.
He's writing about nerds because they're his community, whereas jocks are not. And I'd be careful about calling nerds "saints" or some such. Women / minorities in geek communities may beg to differ with you, and they (not your own experiences) have a deeper acquaintance with the discrimination and fear they experience in those communities.
Slashdot really doesn't need feminist propaganda. There's zero upside to entertaining this line of discussion.
If only they were as smart, enlightened and perfect as you they would have instead made empty remarks relying entirely on their own sense of superiority. Damn nerds and their inferior misogyny.
Judging a book by its cover is totally okay if you belong to or claim to represent a group of people that's frequently oppressed. Got it.
I would say that it's past time to stop pointing fingers and get to the root of the problem - our grossly inhumane culture - but frankly, watching these idiots fight is just too much fun.
If junior was on the verge of Going Postal, and both shrink and mom got into a car to go calm junior down; why didn't mom, or shrink call Police?
It is probably going to get worse before it gets better.
The Misandry Bubble
Throughout my career, I have worked with many engineers, programmers, and other nerds. My experience is that they are the least misogynistic people I have ever met, and they have mostly been polite, professional, and welcoming to their female co-workers. Have you ever worked with salesmen? Or construction workers? Nerds are saints by comparison.
This has been my uniform experience also. My personal experience has been the smarter(in the practical sense) someone is, the fewer stereotypical biases they have.
Here's the TL;DR version of all of these idiotic "rampant misogyny" articles:
Guys, there's a lot of misogyny in group X that I'm part of. I'm obviously not a misogynist, because I'm willing to point out how misogynistic all of the rest of you troglodytes are. You aren't as enlightened as I, the One True Man who Just Gets It. I get it. I'm special.
If you disagree with me that group X is made up of a large percentage of misogynists, well, that merely proves how misogynistic you are. The only way you can not be a misogynist is to be willing to call everybody else a misogynist, and even then you're still probably a misogynist. I'll readily admit that it might only be a small portion of group X that is actually misogynistic, however I'll still speak about the group in extremely general terms about how exceptionally misogynistic they all are.
The main thing you need to remember, though, is that I am not a misogynist. It's all those other guys. You can't trust them, because they're definitely just angry creepers.
Yeah, we need to take example of guys who are into watching sports. They are all perfect gentlemen, right?
No? Well, outdoorsy guys who are into hunting and fishing then.
What, not those guys too? How about guys who like cars and motorcycles?
Yeah, I guess some of them are not so nice either.
There's nothing wrong with nerds any more than any other generic group of people. It's just that a few percentages of the entire population of the earth are narsicistic psychopaths.
I generally agree with the tenor of your post; yes we do have to stand up for what's right. But... but... but... is the problem here really an absence of moral clarity? Do we really need to stand up and say, "going on a murder spree is wrong!"?
Or lets be a little more serious, would it have made a difference if more of us got up and said, "misogyny is wrong" ? Alright, MISOGYNY IS WRONG.
I understand feeling the need to stand up and say *something*, but a world in which that makes any difference to anything other than our feelings is beyond anything I can imagine. Maybe doing something to make ourselves feel better is important. Maybe it will alleviate *other* ills. But I don't think standing up to misogyny it's going to stop crazy guys from going on a rampage, especially *this* crazy guy, who had a lot more problems than misogyny.
If we need to do anything in response to this situation, it would be to find t a better way to respond to someone who has obviously lost it and is making threats of violence. That's a lot harder than just standing up and being counted, though.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
So maybe Mr. Chu can tell us where exactly where this "rape culture" is, because it sure as fuck isn't anywhere where I've ever been. But maybe he hangs with a different crowd.
You said fuck in the same way someone might say "hell".
Hell is a place of torture.
You obviously subconsciously equate sexual intercourse with torture.
Rape is a form of torture.
Ergo, what you see as only sex is actually rape.
Ta-DAH!
Or... You referred to fucking as an insult.
Insult is a verbal form of violence.
Rape is violence.
Ergo, what you see as only sex is actually rape.
OR...
You live in a culture which assumes that it is perfectly normal to treat "fuck" as an insult - which is a verbal form of violence.
Swearing is also a culturally forbidden act which implies power to the very act of swearing. Same goes for sex.
All the things that adults forbid you to do, see, read or think about - are REALLY big things in adult world.
Sex, guns, drugs, money...
Which instructs the more aggressive individuals (men and boys - because of all the testosterone there) through positive feedback (heroes in our culture tend to be both physically fit and sexually attractive) to equate sex with violence and power and strength.
Ergo, you live in a culture which promotes proving one's power and strength through the combination of sex and violence.
I.e. Through raping.
I could probably spin some even finer bullshit but I hope this will do.
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
That this sort of thing appears to be happening with greater frequency.
Number one problem seems to be an increasing number people who reach a point where they have little regard for life. Their's or anyone else's. They think of themselves as victims of some sort. "Entitlement" might be an appropriate word. Rodgers definitely felt as if the world was not delivering on something it owed to him. Don't know how common this is among similar perpetrators but I'm guessing it is.
This thread focuses on nerds but all the perpetrators probably share some form of mental illness that either contributed to their social awkwardness or was aggravated by their social awkwardness. I'm not saying nerds are mentally ill but social awkwardness is usually considered one of the defining traits. There are non-nerds who suffer from this too.
I do think our culture and media often portray young adults living an idealized lifestyle that few if any actually lead. And if you do surround yourself with people who are more affluent than yourself, it is not surprising that it would lead to some feelings of resentment. The fact is that life doesn't owe you a certain level of income or a good looking girlfriend/boyfriend. Some people do not seem to get this for whatever reason.
And perhaps acts like this beget more acts like this. Even the planning stages probably give the perpetrators a feeling of power that they haven't felt before.
As for the misogyny, it was a factor in this case and it could be in others, but not always.
Familiarity with firearms... difficult relationship with mother... narcissistic tendencies... difficulty making friends... overestimates own looks... believes self to be of a superior genetic stock... obsessed with computer games... Games of Thrones lover... sexist... occasionally racist... virgin.... ... will the next series of Big Bang Theory feature Sheldon getting a visit from the FBI?
You may think it doesn't happen but ask the women in your group how many times people have treated them like children, dismissed them, or behaved in a really creepy way even after being asked to stop **. Ask any reasonably well-known geek girl to show you her "death & rape threat" tweet or email folder and you'll see hundreds or thousands of them.
Absolutely. It's significantly telling that the woman who started the #yesallwomen hashtag trend on Twitter shut down her account after countless numbers of rape threats.
And yeah, the backlash to that, the point behind the #notallmen tag, and the strident denials in the comments here are all correct: not all men make those threats, or treat women poorly or dismissively...
But we've all seen it and failed to speak up. Like you said:
** I've personally seen it many times; once I even witnessed a guy ask a female geek how many guys she had slept with, then get righteously offended and angry when she said that was an inappropriate question. (To my own younger self's shame I did not step in and call him out at the time - something I regret).
And like Chu said:
I’ve known situations where I knew something was going on but didn’t say anything—because I didn’t want to stick my neck out, because some vile part of me thought that this kind of thing was “normal,” because, in other words, I was a coward and I had the privilege of ignoring the problem.
I've failed to speak up, too, and so has every man. And as you note, that's the real problem. Sociopaths make up a tiny percentage of the population - they're the few men that the #notallmen tag refers to - but they're really good at blending in, particularly when we don't speak up about this stuff, or worse, dismiss it, deny it, or laugh about it.
As an analogy, consider how many Slashdotters are anti-cop... We readily acknowledge that not all cops are corrupt assholes who falsify evidence and beat suspects, but we rightly criticize the so-called "good" cops who don't do that, but also don't speak up and maintain the thin blue line. The cop who doesn't take part in the beating but merely watches, or who doesn't say anything when another cop deletes a cop-incriminating recording from a dash camera or cell phone isn't the bad apple in the barrel, but they've sure been spoiled by that association.
Well, that's us when we don't speak up when we see someone treating women badly. Maybe we can protest that we aren't doing it, but we're spoiled by the association. Our thin blue line is the "brocode" or membership as "one of the guys", and it can be really difficult to face the peer pressure against speaking up, and it's so much easier to say silent, or laugh nervously, or do anything other than say "that's not right". But if we're not saying it, then we're no better those those "good" cops who cover for the bad ones.
First let me say that I agree that this discussion is pretty silly. That being said, "because someone else does it too" is not a valid justification of bad behavior. And frankly with the supposed intellectual superiority that many (not all) profess, it's even less acceptable. I have a lot harder time forgiving someone for doing something wrong that they understood was wrong, than someone who doesn't even know what they did was wrong in the first place.
However the [nerds] who were not professional were so far past appropriate it was cringe inducing as they self rationalized their behavior as being perfectly acceptable.
A former co-worker would ask waitresses and female hotel staff about their porn preferences. I used to do IT for traders; not even they would go that far.
Yes and yes. While I would agree that proportionally those groups may contain more people who are likely to say something inappropriate. They also tend to accept that they did something wrong when it's pointed out to them and even apologize for being offensive. I've seen many more "nerds" argue this point.
That co-worker? Thought he was being charmy and flirty and never did notice the shocked look on everyone else's faces. When asked to stop, he would say things like, "Just having fun," or, "Loosen up."
You, sir, are worse than Hitler.
DINGDING! We have a winner!
what needs to happen is women taking their own responsibility for their own safety, place in culture, advancement....and get rid of the belief that "sensitive" men need to give them permission.
Sitting around finding excuses and problems and caring more about "awareness" than living or doing is as bad as hashtag activism.
Women will get ahead when they choose to do so. They don't need the OP's help or the "inspiration" of some new feminist book.
Unless they as individuals are too weak to act without such training wheels, and if that's the case EVERYONE who is that weak gets walked on.
Time to grow up and ditch the passive aggressive thing. And stop looking for excuses to be a victim, and move on. this goes for EVERYONE.
I feel a lot less intelligent for having read this.
So as long as an equal amount of men and women died then it's OK for him to have crazy beliefs?
It's a perception vs reality issue.
Same reason we have no end of media submissions about how we need to do something about the 'epidemic' of gun violence that takes 30,000 lives a year, but turn a blind eye to the negligent medical care issue that kills 7 times as many people in the same time period.
Remember the media adage, "if it bleeds, it leads."
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
The discussion is *absolutely* necessary. Because we should expect better from our lot. For the impatient "tl;dr", Chu ends with the words "He [Elliot] needed to grow up. We all do." Some of us need to talk it out in order reach that maturity. I, for one, feel that if we are intelligent enough to parse knowledge incomprehensible to that majority of non-technical human masses, we should be intelligent enough to understand that some things, like the way you think about and treat others, are just NOT FUCKING COOL!
Stay sentient. Don't drink bad milk.
Boy, that escalated quickly.
NAZIS! NAZIS! HITLER!
*Drops Mike, walks out*
HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!
... the existence of "rape culture" when Someone provides an objective definition of what it is.
I've seen it. Frankly, this guy objectified everyone: women as things he wanted to own/obtain, and men as things that were in his way and from which he could obtain esteem, power, etc.
I think this tragedy is a little more complex than some are making it out to be.
Kythe
Now, on the other hand, can we address the reality that men are FAR more likely than women to be victims of violence, physical intimidation, violent crime, and other physical threats such as military hazards and other job-related physical danger?
My first response to up-modded but unsupported assertions like this is to look at the numbers.
Victims
Victimization rates for both males and females have been relatively stable since 2000.
Males were more likely to be murder victims (76.8%).
Females were most likely to be victims of domestic homicides (63.7%) and sex-related homicides (81.7%)
Males were most likely to be victims of drug- (90.5%) and gang-related homicides (94.6%).
Offenders
Males committed the vast majority of homicides in the United States at that time, representing 90% of the total number of offenders.
Young adult black males had the highest homicide offending rate compared to offenders in other racial and sex categories.
White females of all ages had the lowest offending rates of any racial or age groups.
The overall offending rates for both males and females have declined since 1990.
Of children under age 5 killed by a parent, the rate for biological fathers was slightly higher than for biological mothers.
However, of children under 5 killed by someone other than their parent, 80% were killed by males.
Sex differences in crime
[1980-2008 Stats sourced from a 2011 USDOJ report]
''Until a man is twenty-five, he still thinks, every so often, that under the right circumstances he could be the baddest motherfucker in the world.'' ----Neal Stephenson
The frustration stems from an inconsistency I've noticed in female behavior. I've asked a lot of my female friends the following, and none of them has been able to give me a clear, logical answer: At what point does chasing after a woman cross the line from flattering and endearing, to creepy and stalkerish? As best as I can tell, there is no consistent answer. It all seems to depend on how much she likes you. If she likes you, anything you do is flattering and endearing. If she doesn't like you, just asking her a second time after she's said no is creepy and stalkerish.
This results in a common, perverse situation. Women say they want men to respect their wishes. Nice guys (most geeks are nice guys) listen to this, and leave the woman alone after they ask her out and she tells them no. Jerks and abusive guys however don't. They persist in bugging a woman they like who's told them no, and somehow their strategy has a higher success rate at starting a relationship than the geek strategy of respect and listening to what the woman says she wants. Of the married couples I've asked, a clear majority started off with the woman disliking the man and being annoyed at his attentions, before he "won her over" and she fell for him.
So we have a fundamental disconnect between how men are told they should behave, and the behavior which actually works. Consequently a lot of they guys who try to be nice to and respectful of women and treat them as they say they want to be treated, end up being frustrated by "their inability" to enter a relationship. It's not at all surprising that some of them snap and leap to the extreme opposite of their previous strategy (from respecting women to misogyny).
(As a side note, I suspect this is why a significant fraction of women are in abusive relationships. Many women spurn the nice guys who wouldn't abuse her, who give up when she tells them she's not interested. The guys who would abuse her do not respect her wishes and persist, eventually winning her over, and she ends up in an abusive relationship. Look at women who seem to jump from one abusive relationship to another, and I think you'll find someone who puts too much emphasis on the man's persistence as an indicator of how much he likes her. That is probably the perfect filter for eliminating all but the most abusive guys who have zero respect the woman's wishes.)
Just baiting people and throwing around labels; put in nerd or label some nutcase a nerd to get the nerds all worked up and maybe get the stupid people in on the thing... Maybe there are motives behind that like resentment of nerds or some feeling for more conformity... It's one thing to bait people and another to mislabel with a possible attempt to confuse slower people.
As far as the BS about conventions-- that is a problem anywhere those guys can get away with it; those situations are a magnet for those types. I would say nerd culture is better than most the others and those conventions may have 1% be "bad apples" but that the actual proportion of the non-attending members who are like them is probably within rounding error of 0.0%.
As far as some upset crazy shooting people in the USA... again... I don't even bother, it's not even really news. People have feelings, thoughts at moments of their lives which are every bit as dark and as bad as these crazy people; the difference is they have the mental health (or culturally conditioned self control) to NOT act on it or take it seriously. I find it sad that anything is made of people having similar feelings to whatever nutcase is in the news; what is the problem is the difference between the nut and the sane people who have the same ideas; namely, the mental illness.
Sadly, we are not allowed to know his medical history, a lot of these nuts are on legal drugs but not many families ever disclose such information afterward. Plus when they do, the media doesn't make an issue of it... can't upset the sponsors.)
Democracy Now! - uncensored, anti-establishment news
This is a direct result of the left-wing feminist culture. Men of the past may had their problems, but they were taught not to hit
women, cuss in front of them, and treat them right.
The feminist revolution brought this on themselves and some women are finally waking up to the BS that they were fed by
these so-called feminists.
"I'm a dirty white tomcat, enter my world..."
The woman stoned to death, the other woman beaten to death, were both done by non-White, non-nerdy .... MUSLIMS. Blaming nerdy White guys for the actions of non-White Muslims following Islam is like blaming Jews for the Rwandan Genocide. One has nothing to do with the other.
And its typical Female BS. As a Straight White guy my tolerance level for female BS is pretty much zero at this point.
What women's main objection to regarding nerds really amounts to is lack of sexy dominance. That's it. Women HATE HATE HATE nerdy White guys not because they are a violent threat (they are not) but because they are nerdy and unsexy. [Eliton Rodgers? Not a White guy. Nor a nerd. A half-Asian Hollywood type who had no technical skills whatsoever and the son of minor Hollywood accomplishment.]
Yes, we get it. Male intelligence is revolting in men (to women) as being fat is to men (when looking at women). We KNOW women don't object to actual, real violence against them. Ray Rice, the guy who knocked his wife unconscious and dragged her out of an elevator by the hair ... is the target of ZERO feminists and women. He might not even sit out a meaningless pre-season game. Meanwhile some nerdy guy who asked a woman in an elevator for coffee or a guy who made a dongle joke is the subject of jihad.
Yes, men know women very well. The double standards: Charles Manson and Night Stalker Richard Ramirez are married, the latter to a hottie Mensa member and laywer, the Petersons Drew and Scott have groupies, Boston Chechen Bomb Brother Djokhar Tsarnaev has love poems written about him by indie rocker chicks. Women cut violent alpha males tons of slack and throw a hissy fit when an nerdy beta male asks them out. The HATE HATE HATE for male nerdiness that reveals itself in obsessions with things, objects, systems, mathematics, etc. The excuse making for Alpha Male failure. Yes these things we men know well about women. We accept them as part of the innate flaws women have (we have our own, different than yours, which if we are honest we admit). Men don't really expect rational thought out of women when it comes to the rage they feel for men "betraying them" by not being sexy and dominant Alpha a-holes.
Here's a thought. Chill out and accept nerdy guys for who they are. We know most women are fat, unattractive, unsexy, and only getting older with a higher partner count. Most nerdy guys don't go into a rage when they see the fat, obese state of modern Western women waddling down the fast food aisle. We know you can't control your food needs, and we accept you for your fatty personhood that you are. Accept nerdy guys not being sexy (the equivalent of yourself being a fat chick -- and its a good bet you are not even actress skinny and pretty much less supermodel beautiful). As the cost of all those nice things you have: computers, the internet, modern medicine, automobiles you can afford to drive, cell phones, smart phones, etc.
Cause here's the deal: all of that stuff and more came from nerdy guys. Not Russell Brand. Not Ray Rice. Not Ray Lewis for that matter. Certainly not from women. If you want that stuff and the stuff to continue to work and more stuff coming down the pike (like maybe a cure for a cancer you could get when you're 70, so you have another twenty or more years of life instead of dying miserably) ... you'll have to put up with our unsexiness just like we have to put up with your fatness, age, and partner counts plus unladylike, unfeminine behavior which we find gross and annoying.
Into each life some rain must fall.
No, it might not prevent the crazies from going on a misogyny-fueled murder rampage, but it will help the women who are the victims of day-to-day misogyny. If a women goes to a convention, is grouped by some idiot "because her costume was skimpy", and the rest of the people present ignore the situation, that makes it worse. If more people stood up and told the idiot that this wasn't acceptable, the misogynist idiots would be marginalized and would need to change their behavior if they wanted to participate in society. Maybe they would even turn off the path that leads to the crazy actions of Rodger. Meanwhile, women would feel more comfortable in day-to-day life.
How many of us were bullied growing up? How many of us would have loved for someone to have walked over to our bullies and tell them "This is NOT ok. Do NOT treat this person like this"? I know I would have. It would have saved me years of torment when I couldn't speak up for myself. How can we not stand up for others when they need help?
My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
Boy, that escalated quickly.
It could be worse. Someone could have brought up Hitler. ...
Dammit.
No worries, it doesn't count as a Godwin until you actually compare someone to Hitler.
Carry on.
What are you, some kind of meme Nazi???
Touche`, Herr Doofus.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
What's right with us? We're not the 'rape culture' where you're getting gang raped just for getting on the bus alone or honor-murdered on courthouse steps because you went off and married somebody daddy didn't approve of.
Are bachelor male primates that are frustrated in their sexual desires dangerous? Well yeah, watch some bachelor chimps commit infanticide to get access to breeding females sometime, primates are damned dangerous beasts.
But mostly we're much better than that ... just not entirely. Is our mental health system a shadow of what it should be? Are we miles short of where we could be in equal rights and equal respect? Sure. But you don't have to look very far to see how much worse it could be, and is, in much of the world, so forgive my slowness to engage in the tabloid media's flagellation of the country over every psychotic's rampage ... in a country of 330 million, we're going to produce several.
"Itâ(TM)s a standard frustrated angry geeky guy manifesto ..."
You hang around a weird/scary bunch of angry geeky guys. The "manifesto" becomes far-out well before the murder-intent plans.
Yeah just because the douche who posted the story is a creep, don't presume to tar us all with the same brush. It's one thing to be frustrated or angry at an individual but if you think the entire opposite sex is bad there's something wrong with you. I have a mother, daughter, wife, cousins, aunts and female friends and colleagues that I am quite fond of (and with the exception of my wife not in a sexual way). I am faithful to my wife and I don't go around hitting on anyone or feeling ill towards half the human race. The guy was ill and he wasn't socialized. It wouldn't matter if he was a geek or not.
Mod parent the fuck up. This is so spot on and needs to reach more eyeballs.
I just sent your comment to my sister (mechanical engineer for an auto company since the late '80s). Her responses (paraphrased), in case you're curious:
* Um, why _are_ nerds being targeted here? Is someone just being sadistic and taking a swipe at them for pure pleasure? ..."). If you're tough, you don't need to tell others about it. Ever. ...
* Yeah, it sucks to be a member of that (women in technology) minority group and it won't get much better in our lifetimes. Backhanded compliments, etc. She appears to have some unrealistic expectations of men.
* To the extent that she was conscious (and maybe even proud) of her status as a minority, that's a bad sign. In a way, she was letting others frame the issue or set the terms of engagement.
* She comes off as a little insecure ("... fucking bring it, world
* Is she really juxtaposing her work environment with Pakistan? Really?
* The whole "If you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem!" business is tiring.
* It sucks to be a marginalized nerd, too. Separate issue, but don't forget that
* She indirectly makes at least one good point: If you're in the majority, it takes some work to appreciate the minority's perspective. Most men in technical fields could use work there.
Something interesting to note, A 'construction worker' is largely a bivalent obvious label. It is relatively clear cut if someone is a member of this set of people. "nerd' is a term that is much more loosely defined, and large portions of the general population would be able to distinguish between a 'nerd', a 'geek', and a 'gamer'. I thought it was telling that the GP post spoke of engineers and other nerds, suggesting that all engineers and programmers were automatically part of the group of people who were nerds. Programmer != nerd, I have meet many coders who aren't anywhere near the intellectual caliber to be called a nerd.
TLDR? - Please be more specific in your generalizations.
HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!
...for not phrasing his loaded question in a form of a question.
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
Welcome to cultural marxism.
"We're not the ones where one out of six of us will have someone violently attempt to take control of our bodies in our lifetimes."
In the United States, 1 in 2 males born today will have their genitals ripped, cut, clamped, and mutilated (possibly without any form of anesthetic). It's about 2 every minute (over 1 million every year). Please don't try to suggest that males are granted bodily autonomy while females are not.
Lack of discretion from the police being too heavy handed for one. Look at all of the cases of coward cops shooting unarmed schizophrenics or bipolars on a major manic episode. The fear of that puts them down on the list of "who you would call for help" such that they're a last resort.
His video is out of context from his larger "body of work" (including his other videos, other postings, and "manifesto"). I don't think anybody is saying that his video didn't contain primarily hatred towards women. It did. And the rest of his material also contained a substantial portion. I think that if you look past that, at the rest of what this kid said motivated him, it was his overall feeling of alienation and rejection - by everyone. He was overly-concerned with sexual conquest, as a benchmark of his self-worth. And that came out as misogyny, and the targeting of women.
But over a year ago, he wrote that he was going to START his killing spree, at his apartment, on his male room-mates. He also wanted to murder his little brother.
These were the people he felt most hurt by, because they didn't meet some expectation he had of "acceptance".
(and that expectation was what's wildly out of line here. It changes from someone just talking with him, to being treated as some god or supreme ruler with a secret underground breeding facility for women - - I don't care what is in our horrible "rape culture" - this is simply a screaming red-flag of extreme psychosis.)
I think this whole misogyny discussion is a mis-classification of where he directed his hate.
He didn't direct his hate against women (exclusively). He directed his hate against all people who were having a better life than him. And his definition of "better-life" changes as you go; from simply being accepted as a human being to, like his teenage black friend, who was getting sex (with "white women") at age 13. At some point, someone told him that if he wasn't getting laid, he wasn't "okay" - and he seriously took that to heart.
You missed the point. No one is saying it is or is not any place else, what they are saying is in the 'nerd community' any time someone tries to address it people like you come out and say it's not worth discussing because it happens elsewhere to.
Which is pretty pathetic.
Oh, you anecdote contrary to what everyone else agree sis going on isn't the same. well then I guess that shows us.
and What it shows us is that you are a self centered person that can barely survive above rote thinking.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
How the heck are you supposed to get motivated to find a mate if you don't feel like you deserve one? I think that part is normal, but what gets tricky for some people is reconciling that with respecting another person's rights. That takes some fairly sophisticated ethical thought that unfortunately, not everyone is capable of. Certainly not a narcissist with asperger's or whatever was wrong with that guy. So unfortunately, I don't think that merely "educating" nerdy men is the solution to this problem.
You're in a male dominated arena. You're going to meet douches. How easy do you think it is for a man deciding to become a nurse or a primary school teacher? Get over yourself. The reason you've met so many men that are arses is that there are a lot of arses of both genders and with only 3 in 500 of the people you interact with being women, your odds of meeting a guy that is an arse are over 100 times that of meeting a girl that is one. If you don't like it, find a profession that is more balanced. Then you'll be equally mistreated by guys and girls.
He makes some good points. I can only imagine what a real-life "Laura" would think of an "Urkel" constantly stalking her. She shouldn't have to put up with that. To come out and say it is all men's (and more specifically "nerds'") fault for perpetuating this attitude of entitlement is absurd. Nearly everybody has had a crush on someone and has been rejected. There are respectful guys that just chalk it up to incompatibility between two people. There are nice guys that take that rejection and use it as an opportunity for introspection to see their own flaws. There are assholes that chalk it up to feeling entitled and that the woman should have given in. Then there are the mentally ill who go on a shooting spree. Lumping all "nerds" in to basically the last two categories, or enabling of them, is flat out wrong.
While (thankfully) I don't know of any women who have gone on shooting sprees because they were rejected, I do know women who fill all of the other categories. Women who feel entitled to date any man they want. Women who think a man "must be gay" if he doesn't date them. Women who write songs about sabotaging a man's vehicle because he went out with another woman (yes cheating, but that still doesn't justify the vandalism, Ms. Underwood.) And yes even some women who have murdered men because they were rejected, just non on a spree.
This is a mental health issue clearly. This is not a misogyny or misandry issue. Men can be assholes, but so can women. Love-scorned people of both genders have committed horrible acts against others.
To top it off, the article is factually inaccurate. The statistics he mentions are out dated. Newer studies are showing that victims of rape and domestic violence are closer to equal when divided by gender, not the 8 out of 10 numbers he used. The newer numbers take under reporting into consideration where men are discouraged from reporting, cases where by definition of local law men can not be raped, etc.
My heart really does go out to the families of the women, and men, that were killed or injured by Elliott Rogers. We need to stand together as men and women to do something about it and work on the real cause. The kid was mentally ill. He happened to be a misogynist asshole, but that that didn't cause him to go kill people.
More men are raped than women (see: prison and military) overall. No doubt someone steeped in Demagogue Culture will complain that bringing up that fact is unfair because a man being raped dozens or more times in prison over the course of his sentence isn't the same thing as a college coed being attacked in a dark alley. Which means the latter is worse. Or something.
Demagogue Culture trolls will stop being full of crap when they start talking about female teachers raping male high school students in terms of "rape culture" along with the coed in the ally. Or when you can read a story like this and have "rape culture" mentioned every other sentence.
I think Henry Rollins summed it up the best...!
Yes. However, I think the message is somewhat diluted by the fact that Liar is on the same album.
Kevin Seghetti: kts@tenetti.org, HTTP: www.tenetti.org GPG key: http://tenetti.org/phpwiki/index.php/KevinSeghett
He's a crazy person. When did we decide that whatever the shooter says needs to make sense? The man was clearly insane. Do I worry about the ramblings of a man blaming reptilian Illuminati for his rampage? Do we worry about a "culture of anti-reptileism"? No. We don't do that because the people that believe that shit are obviously insane. Comparing him to nerds/geeks or even MRAs is insane. None of those groups have voiced the shit he was voicing. Yeah, some guys feel left out, and they blame it on their looks or the modern culture. It's whatever, they should be allowed to complain. Everyone has that right. It doesn't mean that we suddenly start silencing people for complaining about deficiencies in their lives. Should we silence libertarians every time an anti-government loon blows up a building? No. We don't do that, as the bombers and mass shooters are obviously insane. Furthermore, how is this guy in any way a geek or a nerd? To me he seemed entirely too preoccupied with women and not enough with beowulf clusters. That's a whole other level of tragedy.
Nerds, (perhaps I overgeneralize, but programmers certainly) make a career of looking at things that might technically be “working,” and trying to make them better. We optimize code to make it run faster, use less resources. When someone points out a problem (“Hey, you should do that outside the loop, and it’ll run O(N) faster”) most of us can accept it as the beneficial feedback it is, fix the problem, and carry on. We’re used to accepting our own human failings and doing the best that we know how within our limitations, ever improving.
We do the same to ourselves. When someone points out a problem in our world view (in the present example, our attitudes towards women), where many would reject such criticism as a personal attack and vehemently deny it, nerds (at least the good ones) make a daily habit out of acknowledging, “I screwed up, how can I make it better?” This is just another example of that.
I think when an issue like this is directed at us, many of us will take an honest look at our past and daily interactions, see situations that we could have behaved better, and accept the assertion that we are (or have been) complacent in rape culture, misogyny, etc., and we want to be better. Compare that to the population at large that would be much more likely to dismiss it and continue set in their ways.
That’s not to say as a sub-culture we’re inherently better or worse than any other group (my own observations agree that on the whole we’re better than many, worse than some), but we’re much more willing to self-label and own our behavior.
When a day later I see this as an article on CNN, you gotta know that something deeply fundamental between men and women is/has going/gone sideways.
http://www.cnn.com/2014/05/28/world/asia/pakistan-pregnant-woman-killed/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
Seriously, the shooting in Cali and this woman's tragic death cannot be a moral high point for any society, and we as men and as members of humanity have a responsibility to do all we can to stop this from happening. Cultural relativism be damned, "honor" killing and misogyny are NOT moral high grounds in any sane progressive society.
The rate of intimate partner violence against females declined 53% between 1993 and
2008, from 9.4 victimizations per 1,000 females age 12 or older to 4.3 per 1,000.
Against males, the rate declined 54%, from 1.8 victimizations per 1,000 males age 12
or older to 0.8 per 1,000.
http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub...
Since the data indicate you are wrong I fully expect you to apologize and use the data to change you narrative.
BWAhahahha I kid you clearly can't do that.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
40% of women think their ass is too fat
an addition 40% think their ass is too skinny
the remaining 20% say he's just right and a hard worker
So... that joke wasn't funny until the end, right? Why is that?
Because at some point, man-bashing became socially acceptable, kinda like lawyer jokes, etc. Personally, I do find the twist of that one amusing, but if it were the other way around...
I think the point is, yes, we do realize that there are a lot of jerks out there. They are jerks for a variety of reasons. Beyond that are the true pieces of sh** like this guy [in the article] and those that kill their family. Unfortunately we - based on our gender - are somehow associated with this guy. It's not a *MAN* problem, it's a human problem.
Mario saves the princess? Is that because men identify women are useless and weak, or because they want to be heroic. Just because they might like to be "Thor" doesn't mean that they wouldn't appreciate Janeway, Ripley, or Sarah Conner doing the same for us dudes.
Honestly, I'm not Urkle or even a Leonard. When I was younger I admit to be a complete dork (and annoying to girls and guy both), but that was a social awkwardness I grew out of. The same a**holes that women have so hard a time get a leg up with are the ones that regular guys have issues with, and the thing is, we DO make an issue of it. Maybe not right away in the open, but a "that wasn't cool" or "that was totally unprofessional" when a moment is available to do so. I've dealt with some pretty horrible women too, both personally and professionally (though I'd admit, professionally women do come out on top overall).
So why are we associated Mario and Big Bang Theory nerds - they type that go out of their way to be helpful but don't quite get it - with some sociopathic monster who murdered a bunch of people?
Figure out how to make it better. Call people out. A lot of us are already doing that. Sometimes it even puts us in jeopardy (suddenly we're not team players for appreciating b.s. "humor"). Our response isn't that we don't realize there are jerks out there, it's DON'T ASSOCIATE US WITH THEM, because we're not.
The key word is "appears". The actual occurence of mass shootings has been stable for roughly 40 years:
http://news.slashdot.org/story...
It only appears to be happening with greater frequency due to news media needing sensationalist coverage to drive viewership. That is, there's the same number of shootings, we just hear about it a lot more than we used to.
Sorry, wrong URL. Meant to include this one:
http://www.boston.com/communit...
Of course you should stand up when someone else is bullied. What I object is drawing generalizations about nerds, or men from the fact that some men, and some nerds, don't know how to behave.
This kind of overgeneralization is pernicious. For one thing, that actually feeds into the misconception that such behavior is somehow normal for men. "You politically correct folks have it in for *men* who act like *men*!" "No, we have it in for people who act like jerks."
I remember once, years, ago, a friend of mine told me she wanted her new boyfirend to spend time hanging out with me.
"Why?" I asked.
"So he can see that men aren't icky," she said.
I was mortified. In a weird way people on both extremes of this issue agree on the way "men behave"; they just disagree on whether it's icky or not. Well, bugger that.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
That article only shows stats until 2010 and lumps these shooting sprees in with crimes where there were motives other than just killing random people, - or where the perpetrators where not killing random people at all, but their own families.
"digsbo already cited the relevant reference showing that men have more to fear from others than women do"
no he didn't. He doesn't understand the context and is using a specific type of crime as all crime, it is not.
For example, the paper does not include homicide. It's a report on interviewed victims, not a report of all violent crime.
Lets look at a more accurate and detail review, shall we?
" Domestic violence accounted for 21% of all violent crime."
"The majority of domestic violence was committed against
females (76%) compared to males (24%)."
"The majority of domestic violence was committed
against females compared to males"
"In 2003–12, females (6.2 per 1,000) had a higher rate
of intimate partner violence than males (1.4 per 1,000)"
http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub...
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Get married.
Have kids.
Activate the parenting part of your brain.
This will change all your priorities and make you a better person.
Unless it won't in which case don't.
Get your priorities straight and figure this out.
Chicks hate that.
systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
I don't know of any nerds, geeks, women, or even misogynists who actually fit the stereotypes being thrown around here.
This is the social equivalent of closing a bug as WORKSFORME.
Even if we stipulate that that you yourself really have not witnessed the scenario, it is pretty arrogant to dismiss out of hand all other contrary evidence without bothering to refute it.
This article seems to be a reaction to Elliot Roger's autobiography and rant. The autobiography is not that of a "nerd". This guy had no tech skills. He played World of Warcraft too much; that's about it.
What seems to have driven him nuts is growing up in Malibu and UCSB, two of the greatest concentrations of hot women on the planet, and not getting any.
It is also a nice exercise to think about consequences of getting rid of male sex drive alltogether. It would be actually good to think about that before thinking about how to get there.... But then again that is my perverted brain. I am male after all.
I usually try to stay out of conversations like this because they usually go nowhere, but I have to say something. I'm not saying that what the shooter did was okay or that there aren't nerds, geeks, etc. that aren't pushy but... as a male who can be considered a nerd quite easily, isn't one of the things we learn as nerds is that physical force isn't the answer? Isn't that why we became nerds? Because we didn't like intimidating people to gain success? Didn't LOTR teach us that it's better to work together than to beat the opposing side into submission? Didn't it teach us that everyone, large and small, male and female, are valuable? That females are not to be worshiped but respected as equals? (Éowyn, anyone?) As a former Californian, yes, Santa Barbra does have a considerable amount of snooty girls (it's close to LA. What do you expect?). Yes, there are "fake" geek girls just as there are "fake" geek guys (no, there are not more fake geek girls than fake geek guys. Not by a long shot.). But being geeks, it's by choice, by passion, by definition, that we don't prefer a) violence (as that would make no better than "jocks", as well as reasons previously stated). b) pushing our view on others (as that's what other's were trying to do to us and it was wrong) c) misogyny (Oracle/Barbra Gordon, Wing Chun, Éowyn, etc). d) Beauty over brains (as per definition of a geek/nerd/whatever).
If you're a geek/nerd/whatever and you didn't learn these things, what have you been reading/watching/doing? Seriously. Yeah, girls will blow us off, yeah, it's frustrating, yeah, we'll get mad from time to time. But the point of Star Wars, LOTR, etc is "literally" that a) it'll happen. b) don't fall into it. c) there's something better beyond it. I have had my share of unrequited love where, yes, the girl went with the jock/douche. But you respect their choices just as you hope they would respect your's. (again, see above)
TLDR version: If you're a geek/nerd/whatever and you're resorting to abuse, harm, threats, misogyny, etc. you're either a failure as a geek/nerd/whatever and an a**hole or you're just a pretending to be geek/nerd/whatever and yet, still an a**hole.
"Even though I have no contradictory evidence to provide; I'm going to just ignore this data because I prefer my feels that crime must be getting worse"
people like you come out and say it's not worth discussing
I didn't say it wasn't worth discussing. I said it was silly to discuss the "problem" in the absence of any evidence that the "problem" actually exists. These discussions always start with the presumption that nerds are all a bunch of women haters, yet base that presumption on an anecdote about a woman that was groped a few years ago by some jerk at a game conference. Sure, some nerds are sexist jerks. Some are also racists, child abusers, pedophiles, and even murders. Should we also discuss how racism, child abuse and murder are part of "nerd culture"? These are not "nerd problems", they are "human problems", and should be discussed as such. Misogyny is no different. It has nothing to do with "nerds" or "nerd culture" specifically. If you have some evidence that says otherwise, I am happy to hear it.
I would argue that is part of our larger mysoginistic 'alpha male' culture. Boys are taught from a young age that they are defined by their sexual conquests - 'if you can't get a girl you're a loser', etc.
Culture.
It really doesn't matter if a person has a piece of metal in their hands.
Most of the mass murders speak EPIC VOLUMES about the civilization we have created and its values we teach to each other at Universities (We are all just animals, no better than the house cat or any of Darwins creatures for example).
The ludicrous civlization of control, butchery and savagery. Look at the EPIC amounts of crime going on by our own government who can now sign executive orders and eliminate anybody Mr. PODUS demands.
After all, if PODUS can do it, I Elliot can do it to.
You know we haven't been living very long with Nuclear Weapons, or weapons of mass destruction. Given time and if we continue this path of humanism (i.e. Kill God make our own rules because after all we are just animals) destruction won't be far along the line.
We live in a time of massive change and the powers that be are doing everything they can to divert your attention from their criminal mischief stealing your labor, your liberty and your life through the doctrine of GLOBALISM and its enabler AGENDA 21.
If you want to know why Elliot has the manifesto of the typical government official, look no further next time to your next election to understand why seemingly sane people, murder and kill using their hands, pieces of metal or clubs.
Our society is sick, and our leaders are leading us to destruction.
Got Geometrodynamics? Awe, too hard to figure out? Too bad.
Wow. That article is all over the place. I swear some three-sentence paragraphs had three different thoughts. I think part of the problem with these kinds of essays is that guys get tired of being blamed for everything. (For comparison, just try to think back to any mainstream article that blamed women for anything.) That's why guys are always getting defensive - because guys are always getting the blame. Rather than this essay, I recommend Mark Manson's article: http://markmanson.net/school-s...
He is writing the diary of a schizophrenic.
Geeks aren't sick, just a bid different than most.
Schizophrenics are sick. For whatever reason.
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
The problem isn't misogyny itself, on an individual basis, any more than the problem is invidualized misandry. The problem is when such hate is institutionalized, and I think it's arguable that institutionalized misogyny is at its lowest point in decades. If you start trying to tell individuals what's right and wrong to think, then you are dangerously close to Orwellian thoughtcrime for my tastes. What matters is how people act, which is where any protections need to be placed.
FC Closer
The question on everyone's mind that no one is willing to openly state:
Will this article get Arthur Chu a woman?
Seastead this.
Look, this is not a nerd problem. This is not a subset-of-men problem. The problem is simplified as "misogyny" and that's it.
Yes, there are misogynist nerds. But to be frank, let's call 'em what they are - misogynist. Because there are misogynist Christians, there are misogynist atheists, there are misogynist railfans, there are misogynist bus drivers, there are misogynist flautists. it does not matter what group they are part of, a misogynist is a misogynist.
I'd say "fuck them", but that would be a lowering of standards. I suggest not fucking them.
This sig no verb.
Wow.....lots of dumbfuckery in this little tid bit.....
I'm wondering about a higher incidence of Aspergers among nerds. Those folks say all sorts of crazy shit and have no clue it pisses people off.
Another thread where we're being pigeon-holed into a stereotype to further someone's ad revenue. I'm sorry I was born a white guy in a first world country and apparently now, I should be sorry I'm a nerd. Whatever. I've once...once, come across a guy who was getting unpleasant with the woman he was with (and he wasn't a nerd, my friend and I were the nerds). We stood up and they both sprinted off the train. That's it, that's all I've ever come into contact with.
I'm sure people have and give trouble. But they are not MY people and there is nothing I can do about it. So kindly stop lumping us all together like some kind of hive-mind or group that regularly convenes to convince each other that abusing women is the right thing to do. You can say we do it by reinforcing cultural strereotypes blah blah blah, but I don't and I don't know anyone who does. Maybe you do, but in that case, go and do YOUR damned job and stop blaming me for your failures.
Also, if you're a guy who has managed to walk around without being worried about getting jumped you're either ignorant or particularly lucky. You could have a stab at that fight, instead of jumping on this bandwagon, maybe?
You don't have to look any farther than the article you posted and the research that Mother Jones did. The author in your article didn't like Mother Jones' criteria for defining mass shootings but they used basically the same definition used in this report from the Congressional Research Service:
http://journalistsresource.org...
Apparently the FBI uses that definition as well.
"Even though I have no contradictory evidence to provide; I'm going to just ignore this data because I prefer my feels that crime must be getting worse"
And to be clear, I wasn't talking about the frequency of murders, violent crime, or criminal activity in general. I was talking about incidents like the one in Isle Vista: Mass Shootings.
I never said that crime must be getting worse.
Not all nerds are Canadian, you insensitive clod! ...I'm sorry.
<- Canadian
--- Need web hosting?
Yeah, I'm pretty sick of the portion of nerd culture that thinks the way to get women is to portray all men as misogynists. Men and women live in the world together, they always have and they always will. Get over it, be happy.
I think everyone in this Slashdot crowd looooves lesbian porn, filled with women and nothing but women. How can you call us misogynistic?
We are geeks, nerds, smart folk, technologists. We're supposed to be logical, able to deal with layers of abstraction, think outside the box, blah blah blah. When I see so many comments saying "there's no such thing as 'rape culture'", or "I'm not doing it so don't lecture me", I have to stop and call bullshit, because you are clearly deluding yourself.
Oh, I'm not saying you are actually part of the problem or that your words, deeds, or actions are perpetuating rape culture. The VAST majority of us might even be actively working to correct it:
- raising our children to respect people regardless of what they wear, how they act, who they choose to date, how drunk they get, or any other reason that anyone has ever trotted out when blaming the victim
- pulling co-workers aside when they make sexist jokes
- making sure our female coworkers aren't ignored or dismissed
- fighting to ensure that our female employees are paid the same as our male employees
But to say there's no such thing is deluding yourself and, yes, contributing to its existence. You cannot address the problems underlying it unless you first see them as problems.
Rape is about power. The idea of "rape culture" doesn't imply that all men are rapists. When women are paid less then men for the same work, that's part of rape culture. When women are told they can't wear a particular dress because it will distract the boys, that's part of rape culture. When guys talk about how their new coworker is hot AND smart (like those things are mutually exclusive), that's part of rape culture. You may not directly contribute to it through your actions or interactions, but do not try to pretend that it isn't alive and well in geek / nerd / tech circles. We may not be the quintessential "Good Ole' Boys Club", but we do a damned good impression of one.
We ALL have a responsibility to ensure that everyone is treated fairly, and with respect. And if you want to be part of the conversation, you need to back the hell up and look at the larger picture. This isn't about you. This is about us. Its about how we treat our peers, our friends, and the subtle ways in which we might be hurting them without being aware of it. So to those of you who are trying to argue that "rape culture" is just some made up feminist thing, or are taking offense that you're somehow being grouped with those "bad men" or "bad geeks", or that this conversation is somehow unimportant because there are bigger problems in the world, I have only one response: grow the fuck up.
critique of feminism is not misogyny.
Of course not, because the argument is fallacious.
Death and buggery to all mysogynists
The word "misogyny" has lost all of its meaning. Basically, misogyny now means "anyone who disagrees with a women about anything." You don't agree with feminism? Misogynist. Don't believe in rape culture? Misogynist. You are attracted to slender women? Misogynist. You cannot escape it without kowtowing to any demand any women makes at any time.
The war on misogyny is just like the war on terror: a never-ending conflict with an invisible enemy that can never be defeated and could be anywhere.
Yes, I've been told through my life that because of my interest in computers and games I'm disqualified from the gene pool. Yes, I'm afraid of talking to women in case something gets interpreted as some form of harassment. Yes, I am happy to leave you alone. Yes, I'm also alone and bitter.
What more do you @$%& want from me? Is being a nerd even worse than the general drunk douche bag culture? Is being a nerd sign of being a dangerous nutbag as well? Better lock us away to be safe.
It's funny how women want to be first on and first off elevators, and first through doors -heck they want you to hold it open for them lest you get an angry glare. With equality should also come opening your own doors and coping with everything men cope with. Come on ladies, you can open doors for yourself and wait in line for elevators.
So anyway, when you give up on the idea that women can wait just as well as men and actually do let them on/off elevators first, then they freak out that men are looking at their butts (hey, you know what happens when you INSIST on being first? Somebody has to be second and they have to look where they're going; you happen to be in the way and your dumb shoes make you walk slower, so just move over and everybody wins), or that men would dare to even get on an elevator with women. Holy shit they might do something!
This is a society where men can lose their jobs for saying someone looks nice, or get arrested for assault for the same thing said to somebody on the street. Do you really thing men would risk such loss just to say so much as hi to you?
And then the ladies skitter away clearly afraid for their lives, acting like a prey animal. I'm not sure if this incites a predator response in men but prey behavior makes other animals snap into predator mode and they don't think twice about it.
And the business about being on the phone or pretending to be on the phone doesn't work. Convenience store clerks do the same thing ALL the time. Only job I know of where you can spend the entire shift ON the damn phone and your boss won't care. Anyway. Those stores still get robbed. A phone never stops somebody determined to do evil, and these days the people who are going to do evil are determined.
Women seem to be awfully afraid all the time. Maybe they should stop being cowards and learn how to fight back, learn how to defend themselves in ways that are actually useful, and if they are so inclined, carry a gun and know how and when to use it. Then maybe they won't be so scared to death.
Mod parent up.
Play Command HQ online
Not all is, but, honestly, a lot of it is.
Seriously, the responses on here demonstrate that there is a huge problem amongst slashdot readers. You have to be willing to admit that you might not understand women's experience in order to have an honest conversation and learn something.
Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
What's silly is that no one has bothered to define terms. Most people use geek and nerd interchangeably. I don't. Geeks aren't necessarily smart, just have bad social skills and super indulge in various areas of interest. Nerds are just smart at math and science.
I may be a geek, nerd, male, hetero and perhaps other things. Lots of labels.
But don't you dare tar me with this guy's manifesto as if having something, anything, in common with him somehow convicts me as well of any of his crimes. I'll take blame for things I do, and have done, but not for one goddamn second will I take any shit or blame for something somebody else did, especially not this guy and especially not scumbags who crawl cons and paw at cosplayers.
I worked my ass off for almost two decades as a con organizer and staffer and spent a lot of that time trying to protect idiots from themselves and prevent predators from getting at their prey. And mostly it worked out. Perfect? Nope. But nobody can protect everyone from everything all the time. And I quit working at cons and attending cons because you can generally judge something by the people it attracts. Working at those events or giving them money endorses what they do. Never again.
But just generally, I reject the basic construct that I'm somehow guilty of something just for being male. I'm not guilty by association of stoning a woman to death in a country I've never visited. I'm not guilty of raping somebody in a convention hotel room and I've never, ever, EVER groped anyone in my entire life. Zero.
All I've ever been is nice to women my whole life. I treat them with respect and care and as equals. And they tend to like me. Funny how that works.
So this guilt by nerd/geek/born male/whatever association is not gonna fly with me. To hell with you. Nobody speaks for me but me, and my actions speak for who and what I am and what I believe. Both the OP and this Rodger guy speak for themselves, only.
Sig for hire.
Was also in the youngest birthmonth allowed into my school grade, so was always less mature both physically and mentally than my male and female school peers, on top of the out-of-norm body shape.
I was friendly and, dare I say, smart, but of course very shy, because of actual rejection or completely ignored by girls. Once bitten...
I had a number of long-term femaie friends during that period, so it's not as if I didn't know how to relate to females, but just friend is the key word there.
So what I'm saying is, being an atypical (outside a certain bound from average) specimen of an animal species is in fact a really tough spot to be in, and for intelligent, generally perceptive and analytical, and socially perceptive young people, it is extremely psychologically painful (tortuous). It is not inaccurately perceived rejection. It is generally real (and accurately perceived) rejection. This applies to males and females outside of the physical norms. It really does. Don't bullshit.
I think there ought to be more recognition and admitting that we are animals engaged in a mating game as well as being just walking cool objective minds, and that there really is nothing "fair" about that game.
I think there ought to be a no-punches-pulled manual (or curriculum) for being a human being at the various stages of life, particularly from the early adolescent stage on. A manual/curriculum that :
a) gives an honest picture of the nature of yourself and other human beings. What animals like you and others are like in general, what their actions and motivations and perceptions are likely to be, at a generalized level.
( "You AREN'T READY for the truth!" :-)
b) gives some stories from others' experiences with outcomes that don't suck, for people not born with the biological golden spoon in their mouth, to give hope, but realistic hope (these are intelligent perceptive, analytical people likely, remember), to young people facing a variety of true social / sexual ostracization.
c) Gives strategies for successfully navigating that harsh world, psychologically and in terms of how to interact, given how other people can be / are likely to be.
This thing with Elliot Rodgers has been on my mind for days now, eating away at me. He's that "nice guy" who went and shot four men and two women, because the women wouldn't have sex with him, and the men took what he believed to be rightly his. I've read a lot of discussion about him and his actions, lots of related peripheral discussion, and read and read and read.
I'm reading because it's personal to me. More personal than I thought possible. It's personal because it's delving into geek culture. It's personal because of the deep conflicts I feel about what happened.
It's personal because every other factor is, in my mind, a distraction. This isn't really about gun control, for example. The problem wasn't his guns. It’s about him.
It's personal because, just like the Columbine shooting, it's morally reprehensible. Utterly inexcusable. This is the product of a deranged man, a narcissist and deluded person, taking his anger out on a world he thought owed him everything simply for him being who he was. He was the ultimate "nice guy", a concept which is something of a berserk button for me; entitled, selfish, in love with himself, bitter, jaded, hateful. Indefensible. Repugnant. Evil.
It's personal because, on some level, I sympathise with him.
Feels dirty to even type that. In case I haven't already been perfectly clear, I really, really hate the so-called "nice guys". I make them villains in my stories. I council anyone I see displaying "nice guy"-ism against the folly of their ways. I speak out about it as often as I can. My philosophy is this:
If you believe that you are owed romantic or sexual favours because you do things for them, you are not a nice guy. If you misrepresent your intentions towards women, in the belief that this makes you "deserve" their affection, you are not a nice guy. If you think that treating a woman well means she owes you something, treating basic human interaction as an exchange of goods and services, you're not a nice guy.
You're *supposed* to be nice. To everyone. You don't get credit for that. You're *supposed* to be good to people. You're *supposed* to do kindnesses for people without expectation of reward. You're supposed to have the courage to do the right thing without holding your hand out for payment. You're supposed to treat women and men of all ages and backgrounds with the same level of respect, friendship, kindness, loyalty, strength, compassion, dignity, autonomy, charity, gratitude and love. If you can't do that, you're not a nice guy and you never will be.
So why do I sympathise with someone I despise?
We've all felt helpless at some time. Especially so when it comes to romance. Male, female, straight, gay, or something in between. We've all felt attracted to someone who didn't return our affections. It hurts. I don't know anyone who'll say that being rejected doesn't cut them. Frankly, I'd be worried about someone who *didn't* care. It's painful, and in that pain, we can think stupid things. Pry open the diary of any 15 year old kid and you will find some messed up stuff in there. Peel back their skin, cut open their skull, read their minds and you'll find much darker and hurtful things. Being rejected is painful. It's frustrating. It hurts. It can be hurtful to look at those who have what you want.
But you know what?
Tough.
Yep, tough.
Australians have a saying: "Tough bikkies". Hard luck. You're not owed anything because you're in pain. You're going to have to find some way of dealing with it -- introspection, self-improvement, even physical relocation. This is YOUR problem. Not anyone elses. Nobody owes you resolution. I can sympathise, empathise, and relate -- but it's your problem to deal with. Go hiking in Tibet. Join a gym. Eat a bucket of icecream and watch Pacific Rim. Go do whatever it is that you do to cope with things.
You don't get to take it out on the world. You don't get to do things like grope women at conventions because you can't control yourself, and then blame th
Check out my sci-fi book "Lacuna" at http://goo.gl/MVxX8
True, among the ravings of a homocidal narciscistic sociopath there was some misogyny but it's clearly a side issue.
The feminist music etc columnist Helen Razer had an interesting piece on it this week.
Well no, but you'd be hard pressed to call his targeting sexist.
Also how many people in mainstream movies or TV are ugly? Don't blame the demographic for the machinations of those selling to them.
It's about eye contact, posture, social distance (how close you stand in various situations), stiffness, gestures, and appropriate/inappropriate smiles.
Some people have trouble with this. They have miserable lives. Speaking of empathy, try not to be a hypocrite: have a bit of empathy for these people.
Well, maybe in a population of the entire western world, you could find a few. It's like finding people hit by meteorites.
Your "rape culture" might exist in Pakistan or in DR Congo. Outside of the most defective places on Earth, your "rape culture" is a myth and your alleged perpetrators are straw men.
Said the misandrist, bitchy bimbo...
"When women are paid less then men for the same work" - Where are these women? I want to hire them. If they will do the same work as men for less money, I am going to replace all the men that work for me with these women. Any sensible employer would do the same.
Well-written piece on the subject here:
http://lemuria.org/FreeEverything/2011/07/misogyny-misandry-equality/
The simple fact is that both women and men are getting gender-based abuse. Do women get more? Possibly. They're also much better at the victim role, and things like these make the headlines regularily, while sexual and other abuse towards men (by women) almost never does.
Societies problem isn't that we hate women, it's that we abuse each other. If you really think women are in general better human beings then men - congratulations, you've just done the exact kind of depersonalisation, generalisation and gender-based discrimination you complain about.
Seen a lot of people talking about rape in the aftermath of Elliot Rodger, but I don't know where that's coming from. Yeah Elliott Rodger was sexually frustrated, but he presumably never tried to rape anyone. He is a murderer, not a rapist. Let's talk about guns or the people he killed, but he didn't have anything to do with rape.
can't agree more +1
"Please don't come back"? I made a sarcastic comment about how quickly the tread was going downhill, and that is the response I get? I am so very disappointed on so many levels. I offer this rebuttal, you filthy, Portland hippy:
Sir, the whole of your taste is in your mouth, your father only impregnated your mother because he was drunk at the time and mistook her for a overly portly circus clown, and you tip poorly. The Irish think you drink too much, and racists call you thick-witted but only behind your back, because they find you to be too violent and moody to deal with. All your dates with the opposite gender have occurred because of dares or pity, and your hair is more oily that Saudi Arabia. You dress like a pimp from New Jersey, and I would have a better conversation with a rotting stump than with you. I'd suggest that you kill yourself to improve humanity as a whole, but that would just waste an empty hole in the ground where someone would doubtlessly stuff your bloated hideous body, that could otherwise be doing something useful like storing landfill. Mail yourself to Tasmania, and stop lowering this website's name by posting your filthy opinions on it. Bits cost almost nothing, and yet I feel you are wasting Slashdot's money ever time you foolishly click 'post' in the vain hope that if you spew enough verbal fappery you might actually say something that somehow matters. Away, chaff, away with you.
HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!
"Nerdy guys aren’t guaranteed to get laid by the hot chick as long as we work hard. "
oooh, news flash
Find me five people in the universe who needed you to tell them that. Most people assume that nerdy guys are guaranteed *not* to get the girl.
Note that the psycho du jour showed no signs in believing in work or of being a nerd. He was a wannabe popular vapid tool, as opposed to the unpopular vapid tool he actually was. I guess he played video games. Is that all it's supposed to take to be a nerd these days?
If Chu wants to castrate himself for the sin of being born with a penis, he should feel free.
Uh, excuse me, you patronizing ivory tower pigeonholing d-nozzle. "When women are paid less then men for the same work, that's part of rape culture." You're so full of it that your shit is shitting. If you don't realize how seriously brain-damaged the logic is that led you to make that statement, you have no business even trying to talk about sociological issues.
Q: Did you ever wonder why women bleed for five days, every month? A: Because they fucking deserve to.
Arthur Chu says that having sex with a girl he liked wouldn't have helped him overcome his frustration about not being able to have sex with a girl he liked.
Instead, he grew up and his problems went away.
?????????????
Stick to playing Jeopardy!, Mr Chu.
You're missing popularity too. Remember the most common difference between creepy and charming is how the guy is viewed. Look how they try to blame video games for violence, despite just accepting sport hoodlums, and video games aren't even remotely niche anymore. The (actual) nerd is a safe goto target, especially for women, and knows it.
"A soft answer turneth away wrath. Once wrath is looking the other way, shoot it in the head."
When you label a group you are opening the way for stereotyping. I am a person not bound to the confines of your perception of reality. Article author can go stick his perception up some wheres else. Don't call me geek, nerd, or other. I might call you something true back.
p.s. cbs and big bang have an agenda to label people. Stuff it cbs.
If a women goes to a convention, is grouped by some idiot "because her costume was skimpy", and the rest of the people present ignore the situation, that makes it worse.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXaQpMkyfRo
while i have no trouble believing there are plenty groping assholes, women play that game too. In fact they have much fewer qualms about 'innocent' groping because they are seen as non-threatening and cute.
Grab boobs? Not a big deal, we are both women, right?
Grope a handsome man? He will like it!
With such easy and vast access to porn we're no longer taught to respect women. It robs them of identity, they are no longer a person, they've become cum buckets to be used and discarded. No longer respected, no longer held as something that should be honored and protected. Just something for pleasure.
On the other hand, I go to the gym every day.
I still consider myself a nerd.
Over the past several days, I've read several commentaries about Elliot Rodgers and his motivation for commiting several murders. These murders have been blamed on "white privilege", misogyny, a rape culture, nerd culture, a (of course) gun culture, and so on. From what I understand, Rodgers was in psychotherapy for many years. What hasn't been adequately explored (in my opinion) is assigning "blame" to the apparent fact that the shooter was mentally ill. Quite a number of the high media profile mass shootings within the past several years were committed by individuals with histories of mental illness. If there's any sort of answer to these tragedies or any way to address and hopefully avert future shootings of this nature, how about revisiting our system of treating mental illness in potentially violent people? Blaming men, blaming white people, or blaming guns doesn't seem to be an effective countermeasure.
In this day and age, everyone is suppose to be equal. No exceptions for any category. Yet in reading the remarks to this point, it seems as if there are all kinds of demarcations that separate people into unequal groups, at least in the eye's of people not in that group.
People are people. Some are idiots, morons, misogynist's, misandronist's, pedophile's, pervert's and any other thing you can think of. When you get right down to cases, any adult that forces themselves on a child needs to have both knee's and both elbows shattered with a sledgehammer. Any one else that forces themselves on another just needs a good attitude adjustment (preferably 25 lashes with a cat o'nine tails).
As long as it is non physical and it involves adults, all I have to say is that women have been saying for a long time that they are the equal of men. I say, good. Let them get ulcers and heart attacks and all the other crap that goes into supporting their loved ones. But if you want to be equal, there is a lot of unpleasant baggage that goes along with it. If you cannot stand to hear derogatory words spoke in your direction, I suggest wearing earplugs. As long as it stays with words and is not physical, does the "phrase sticks and stones" mean anything.
And if you think this country, it is only women that get verbally assaulted by men, then you have been walking around with your head packed in wool. I have seen a group of women go after a man in the same fashion. And its like blood in the water.
The best thing that people need to do is to treat everyone the way they want to be treated. That includes the idiot that just cut you off in the fast lane and then slowed down. People are assholes, and once you get that thru your thick skull, you can carry on your life with fewer problems than you have ever had.
PC is for those with thin skin. Its time to grown some armor and quit playing the victim. This applies to everyone, no matter the race, gender or planet of origin.
Won’t someone please think of the predatory single mothers?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_pay_gap#United_States
You say that, but statistically it doesn't happen.
Simply accuse them of rape, or accuse them of being a kiddie monger.
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_culture
"Rape culture has been observed to correlate with other social factors and behaviors. Research identifies correlation between rape myths, victim blaming and trivialization of rape with increased incidence of racism, homophobia, ageism, classism, religious intolerance, and other forms of discrimination.[9][10]"
Valuing a woman's work in the workplace lower than a man's is consistent with this, and salaries are the most obvious and direct measure of how a person is valued by their employer.
I've read through this thread and all I want to do is bang my head up against the wall.
Yes I'm a female and yes I'm using Anonymous because of it for this post.
The majority of the posters above are missing the entire point. Let me spell out some examples for you guys--
We live in a society where (and I apologize but just focusing on male-female relationships/interactions for now)
1- Women are concerned about reactions when they are simply honest. Telling a stranger (or sometimes even a friend) you're not interested in a relationship (romantic) with them can result in different ways: A- he takes it well and everything is fine. B- he seems to listen but thinks you're playing hard to get so he keeps at it and makes the woman uncomfortable because he's already not listening or respecting what she has told him. Things escalate from there. C- He does not take it well and in a show of pride scoffs he wasn't interested/just doing her a favor and other aggressive moves. D- he's reacts quite strongly taking it as a personal affront and makes a threatening comment or gesture. E- he says she's wrong and that she will be with him and proceeds to be completely inappropriate.
The A guys are the majority. We know that. We're not worried about them. It's the fact that B-E guys exist and no one is wearing a nametag saying "yeap I'm a jerk" that we have to be concerned. Because it can be a physical threat. The worst part of it is-- short of E and him dragging her away while she screams no - the rest of the crowd tends to be on the male's side in this. No one wants to be rejected for any reason or in any way so it is easy to sympathize with the male and god forbid, no one wants to get involved in a argument. No one tells B to lay off, or C to cool off or D to leave as he's inappropriate. E you might get someone to assist but don't count on it. The fear in this comes from what could happen- based on what has happened and what clues are provided by the males that insinuate possible danger if not agreed with. Call us irrational all you want, but typically most women have experienced enough incidents to make us cautious in these situations.
My first experience with someone like this was when I was 12. Twelve. I was at the beach and didn't realize what was even happening because again, I was 12 and relatively naive. I realized an older man was following me around a small store we were visiting. I was was wearing long shorts and a scrub top, nothing revealing. When I finally realized he was following me and looked him in the eye, he eyed me top to bottom and smiled as he walked up to me. I had no idea what he was doing (but understand now) so I turned to get away because instinct said so- as I did he took the rejection negatively and called me a vulgar term in a very angry voice, while stepping towards me. If I had not ran to the safety of more people in the store in another area, what perhaps would have happened?
Another more recent experience was when I was meeting new people. I agreed to meet a guy for coffee - not a date at all clearly- in the middle of our mall. Completely open area. He turned out to be a guy trying to be nice but failing. He was definitely a B and as I said goodbye he grabbed me in the middle of the mall and kissed me. There was NOTHING to signify I wanted or interested in this from him. He assaulted me. Clear and simple. I shoved him away, said that was inappropriate, and left. I know if I'd tried to press charges it would not have gone anywhere because I did "meet him there" and "showed interest by talking to him" and that was enough to encourage him to take liberties with my body is why the term "rape culture" exists.
No- as if all this wasn't enough, women are held to crazy standards- a friend was raped but he was not convicted because they didn't think she did enough to discourage him. People still remark that a girl was "asking for it" because of what she wore, where she was at, being out late, being out early, being out alone, being in the wrong n
Have you been on a college campus lately? VERY short shorts on girls, no bras, etc. While that is certainly their right to dress as they wish, it is like a written invitation to sick, lonely minds. I would ask women to think about the way they present themsleves and to be much more cautious when they go out and get screaming drunk in public dressed like a hooker. Bad things can happen.
Do women have problems here? Any adult men's magazine will have a semi-nude women on the cover. Strangely, so will any adult WOMAN'S magazine.
Doesnt' makes sense to me. The last thing I would be afraid of if I were I chick would be to be raped by a huge horde of nerds. And I say a huge horde because the idea of being raped by less than a huge horde is a concept that even in the form of mere thought is contrary to the laws of this space-time continuum.
-- 29A the number of the Beast
Ha ha, yep. Quite obvious... Kind of feel sad for him.
The easiest explanation I can find is that he sees this as a strategy for getting laid. I don't think anyone _really_ believes in this crap.
Going crazy is not just a nerd thingy. Every guy thinks about sex at one point or another and sexually explicit stuff is every where BUT not everyone has a gun and most people - nerd or not nerd - don't go shooting people - even in our winner take all society. Some guys have all the luck Some guys have no luck at all. Love can be unfair and fickle thingy.
Our society glorifies sex and glorifies violence and power as proof of success - a natural order - a kind of Darwinian dominance .... we overlooking the not so pretty side effects of what this kind of social norm does to the psyche .. Why must a Nerd be a Teenager in Love? or a behavioral sink? You know if your teen is really a goof ball nerd - then he or she is in love with Science Technology Engineering and Medicine .... and Love is just a chemical equation of endorphines and other hormones whose electron valances have to be balanced out ....
So I take it you've read neither the article or the comment threads then?
I think you raise an important point with respect to the neuropathology of this particular case (Eliot Rodger). His monolog reflects a narcissistic ego- entitlement with no personal responsibility. He may have had organic issues like autism or even schizophrenia but his long history of therapy did not overcome the narcissism that seems to have driven him to this maniacal act. What do therapists do for people like this? Are they doing any good at all?
Go back to bed, kid.
Did you even read what I wrote?
Please read it again and then look at the piece of text of yours I just quoted. Consider the connection. Then try again.
Note that I stil have not mocked you yet so lay off on the "confirm your biases" pre-emptive bullshit attack.
If you are too lazy to think the point I'm making is that sadly there is still a very large amount of medical evidence to show that the assault injury statistics show a much larger number of assaults are occuring than the reported crime statistics. For cultural reasons a lot of rapes and other assaults end up in medical reports without ending up in criminal reports. Such a thing is general knowledge among the majority of most communities but for some reason you appear to have been sheltered from such awareness or are for some reason denying what is occurring around you.
Repeating your drivel everywhere won't make people pay attention.
Although I am comforted by the fact that there is finally a forum for us to defend ourselves from baseless charges such as the ones made by this article, I am equally alarmed that there are so many people here deny the very real existence of rape culture, maybe because dem libruls talk about it.
Just because you haven't experienced it or witnessed it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Although the definition of the word itself is loose and can be stretched from "culture that promotes committing rape" to "culture that ignores and/or covers up rape", the fact of the matter is that there is a subset of people on Earth who don't believe that you need to consent with someone before having sex with them. Don't believe me? Remember Steubenville, and how Anonymous (a bunch of NERDS, Mr. Chu) basically exposed the ugly politics and culture behind the crime?
I think we nerds are rather progressive in our treatment of gender issues. Yeah, we're largely single loners, but we're learned enough to realize what are proper boundaries. Being bullied in school tends to give that kind of perspective, you know. Yes, there are those within our midst who are not as versed in these boundaries, and they present big problems at cons, gaming groups, anime clubs, etc. Well guess what? The security team (made up of volunteer nerds) is on it. And we've got plenty of panels raising awareness of the infamous con creeper.
And just an aside: I found Chu's charges against Mario's "rescue the princess" storyline as illustrative of a romantic entitlement mentality simply does not hold water. A monarch of a nation was unjustly captured by a conquering tyrant, and it is up to the plucky hero of humble origins to depose the invader and restore the monarch to the throne. Frankly, I saw it more illustrative of justice rather than romantic attachment. Hell, the "knight saves princess" storyline can be interchanged with a "femme fatale saves male diplomat" one and it would be exactly the same thing.
Getting a bit out of hand. Elliot was one guy, with crazy ideas, and mental health issues, he isn't a reflection of the rest of us. Let's just be glad he wasn't smart enough to get into politics and pull a hitler on us.
sudo apt-get install sl && sl
Hey wait, GOTO isn't safe.
I've read through this thread and all I want to do is bang my head up against the wall. The majority of the posters above are missing the entire point. Let me spell out one example for you guys. One. As in yes there are so very many more to choose from but here's just one example of what it is like to be a woman in society today. We live in a society where (and I apologize but just focusing on male-female relationships/interactions for now) 1- Women are concerned about reactions when they are simply honest. Telling a stranger (or sometimes even a friend) you're not interested in a relationship (romantic) with them can result in different ways: A- he takes it well and everything is fine. B- he seems to listen but thinks you're playing hard to get so he keeps at it and makes the woman uncomfortable because he's already not listening or respecting what she has told him. Things escalate from there. C- He does not take it well and in a show of pride scoffs he wasn't interested/just doing her a favor and other aggressive moves. D- he's reacts quite strongly taking it as a personal affront and makes a threatening comment or gesture. E- he says she's wrong and that she will be with him and proceeds to be completely inappropriate. The A guys are the majority. We know that. We're not worried about them. It's the fact that B-E guys exist and no one is wearing a nametag saying "yeap I'm a jerk" that we have to be concerned. Because it can be a physical threat. The worst part of it is-- short of E and him dragging her away while she screams no - the rest of the crowd tends to be on the male's side in this. No one wants to be rejected for any reason or in any way so it is easy to sympathize with the male and god forbid, no one wants to get involved in a argument. No one tells B to lay off, or C to cool off or D to leave as he's inappropriate. E you might get someone to assist but don't count on it. The fear in this comes from what could happen- based on what has happened and what clues are provided by the males that insinuate possible danger if not agreed with. Call us irrational all you want, but typically most women have experienced enough incidents to make us cautious in these situations. My first experience with someone like this was when I was 12. Twelve. I was at the beach and didn't realize what was even happening because again, I was 12 and relatively naive. I realized an older man was following me around a small store we were visiting. I was was wearing long shorts and a scrub top, nothing revealing. When I finally realized he was following me and looked him in the eye, he eyed me top to bottom and smiled as he walked up to me. I had no idea what he was doing (but understand now) bur I turned to get away because instinct said so- as I did he took the rejection of his advances negatively and called me a vulgar term in a very angry voice, while stepping towards me. If I had not ran to the safety of more people in the store in another area, what perhaps would have happened? Admittedly growing up I always looked older than my age, I doubt he realized how young I was, but regardless of my age at the time I should not have been treated in the manner he treated me. I'm still surprised at his sense of entitlement to my affections just because he displayed interest towards me. Another more recent experience was when I was meeting new people when a number of friends were moving out of the area. I agreed to meet a guy for coffee - not a date at all, specifically and clearly stated as such, in the middle of a local mall. Completely open area. He turned out to be a guy trying to be nice but failing because he wasn't really a nice guy. He was definitely a B and as I said goodbye he grabbed me in the middle of the mall and kissed me. There was NOTHING to signify I wanted or interested in this from him. He assaulted me. Clear and simple. I shoved him away, said that was inappropriate, and left. I know if I'd tried to press charges it would not have gone anywhere because I did "meet him there" and "showed interest by talking to him" and t
This problematic attitude of fixating on a woman from afar and then refusing to give up when she shows or tells that she is not interested, leads in many societies to honor killings, disfigurement by flinging acid on the woman and rape.
It's kind of interesting to see that the responses this post on Slashdot is getting are sort of strongly reinforcing what is being said by the article.
>guys think they need to be having sex with girls in order to be happy and fulfilled.
Yeah, that's called sexual drive, and it's part of human nature.
It's a need just like food, water and sleep.
Why should men have to be ashamed of and suppress their basic needs, their nature?
One thing to keep in mind with many of these statistics is that it only accounts for "reported" (and to some extent acknowledged) issues.
Certainly abuse of women is a big issue, but keep in mind that often abuse of (or violence towards) men is ignored or under-reported.
Is an insult to everyone, who was raped. Like real rape.
Wtf does that even mean???
And that there is no reason to believe that pedophilia is a rare mental illness any more than we once believed homosexuality was a rare mental illness.
So you ARE arguing that homosexuality IS a mental illness?
It's just that we once wrongly thought that it was rare?
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
Chu is an angry asshole who couldn't put together a cohesive article to save his greasy hair. His grammar could use some work. So gross.
I think you've hit the nail completely on the head here. Geekery has more intelligent people in it than the average, and more of a history of being "outsiders" (say, in high school), and more autism. This is a volatile mix, and the result seems to be that there is no "middle ground".
I concur that almost all of the guys I've worked with have been perfectly professional and respectful to women in a professional capacity. We all make mistakes (and given what mainstream culture teaches us, it's unsurprising that we make mistakes in gender relations), but I've noticed that when male geeks have it pointed out to them that they did make a mistake (be it a joke which could be seen as sexist, or something else), they either completely get it or completely don't get it, to the point of coming up with elaborate excuses as to why the bad behaviour is acceptable.
You can see both extremes here in this very thread. In the thread, it seems to be pretty much evenly split between guys who get it and guys who don't, but I don't believe that these proportions are indicative of the industry as a whole.
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That's also my experience, but I've also found it to be true that the few who do have biases (or, more likely, an unrealistic picture of what constitutes "normal") are far more likely to argue that they don't and make excuses as to why their behaviour should be considered acceptable, than admit it and change their ways. Intelligence cuts both ways.
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Nobody, I repeat nobody, is claiming that "nerds are all a bunch of women haters". Only a tiny number of nerds are women haters.
See, it's not just "a woman" who had a bad experience at a conference. It's that most women have had bad experiences (not all of them as bad as being groped, admittedly) at these events. It's a tiny proportion, but it only takes a tiny proportion.
A few act like floppy clumsy puppies and make obvious blunders which can make an environment uncomfortable for someone who doesn't fit the nerd stereotype. This is just ignorance, and it's nothing that a little bit of pointing-out can't fix.
But the real problem is this, and this is what most people don't get: Many nerds do not step in and stop their fellow nerds if they are creating a hostile environment, or otherwise make it clear to the few that certain behaviours are unacceptable, and most nerds are oblivious to what women and other minorities face in the community from the actions of the few.
Hopefully, the claim that "nerds are oblivious" is not a controversial statement...
You're absolutely right that it's not specific to nerds or nerd culture. However, we pride ourselves on being typically smarter than the average bear. We are natural problem solvers, if only that we can see a problem to be solved.
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nuff said
yeah you treat us different in tech
Hey, k3vlar, i have a hero complex, too. It doesn't make me any better than everyone else and it's not working for you either.
Let go of your need to have a group affiliation and you can be free of these feelings. No one is pointing a finger at you.
Stop being a geek or a man and just be a person; a decent one if you can. You imply that you're an individual, so be that.
You can be aware of the group without being a part of it.
If you call yourself a nerd and you're truly intelligent, you should be smart enough to drop any childish idealism and see the big picture by the time you're in college: you cannot pick "this one" but you can always eventually find at least one that's excellent. A basic sales operation, except you're selling yourself. You're an imperfect product selling to an imperfect consumer. Perseverance is good only if applied to the task at hand by consistently making new introductions, not hyper focusing. Five minutes with someone will tell you if there's any potential. If not, move along, be patient, repeat, never obsess. When you're young, there are likely multiple excellent matches for everyone. When you find one of your matches things will proceed easily. Obsession is your enemy, it wastes time and resources. Start now, as your match pool will be rapidly depleted after age 25.
whilst there are more people with autistic and aspergers symtomps working in computing that most other industries there is still an underlying behaviour we all exhibit that is grumpy and short tempered regardless of gender , this is not related but IMHO inherited.
I think the intention of the OP was to point out that we males in the it community need to as a community address the problem of bad communication skills as we are likely to be caught up in the wider problem of male misogyny if we don't take a clear stance against it. We are also wasting the capable resources of many females who are dropping out of tech projects because of this abuse and having to pretend to be men to participate.
We need to reinforce good behaviour and as men we need to confront those exhibiting misogynistic behaviour and make it abundently clear that is not acceptable , just the same way as we do with racists.
we are responsible for the world and we must act like it , no excuses
[site]
Who is We?
I don't want to help you do better.
That 13 year old young woman should be married 6 years by now.
Not if they live in afghanistan: then they marry adorable 6 or 8 year old girls. They play with them every day.
You just explained how ALL marginalized groups of people develop resentment for non-marginalized groups of people.
Which is to say that social marginalization is the problem, not nerds.
--- Grow a pair, liberals... stop letting the Republicans bully you!
Not only is White Knighting pathetic, it doesn't get you laid. His goal is to finally lose his virginity.
> But the real problem is this, and this is what most people don't get: Many nerds do not step in and stop their fellow nerds if they are creating a hostile environment, or otherwise make it clear to the few that certain behaviours are unacceptable, and most nerds are oblivious to what women and other minorities face in the community from the actions of the few.
Because when we do, we're accused (by that woman) of "White Knighting". And sometimes legitimately - there's a LOT of false signalling going on when the stakes are this high (and when reproduction AND pack dynamics are involved, the stakes are ALWAYS high).
There's a LOT of misogynistic jerks out there. But there's also a LOT of role-confusion and conflicting signals about what we're supposed to do about it.
The tumbler Social Justice Warriors have some damn good, highly valid points - but they're expressing them in pretty toxic and unhelpful ways.
The MRA movement also has a few damn good, highly valid points - but they're expressing them in pretty toxic and unhelpful ways.
And the narcissistic sociopaths stand in the middle, egging both sides on, because chaos is fun, and tears are delicious.
And each time one side presents a toxic, unhelpful argument, it makes the other side that less capable of presenting their side in non-toxic and helpful ways - because coalition politics are buried pretty deeply inside our monkey-brains.
-Hentai [in vita non pacem est]
It doesn't help that nerds are more confused than most about social cues, on the whole.
They do? I've never seen any good or valid point within a several-mile radius of the MRA movement, and certainly not its online wing.
Oh, don't get me wrong, there's a lot of damn good and highly valid points that a sane group dedicated to "men's rights" could be making. There's no shortage of issues in the world that disproportionately affect men adversely (child custody, prison rape, conscription... I'm sure I don't need to go on). I've just never seen any of it it even hinted at by the MRA movement.
I made one comment elsewhere that I'm going to repeat here: The slogan of the Good Men Project is "the conversation no one else is having". Sadly, that appears to be accurate.
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