Slashdot Mirror
Man Arrested After Charging iPhone On London Overground Train
An anonymous reader writes: 45-year-old Robin Lee was arrested after he used a socket on a London Overground train to charge up his iPhone. He was handcuffed and arrested for "abstracting electricity". Robin was then charged with "unacceptable behaviour" after "becoming aggressive" when objecting to his first arrest. The Guardian reports: "Speaking to the Evening Standard, Lee said he had been confronted by a police community support officer on the overground train from Hackney Wick to Camden Road on 10 July. The Overground is part of Transport For London’s wider network that also includes London Underground and the buses. 'She said I’m abstracting electricity. She kept saying it’s a crime. We were just coming into the station and there happened to be about four police officers on the platform. She called to them and said: ‘This guy’s been abstracting electricity, he needs to be arrested’.”
Yup. Let's spend thousands of dollars worth of man-hours and paperwork and court time over 10 cents worth of electricity.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
abstract Oh yes we can: verb gerund or present participle: abstracting bstrakt/ 1. consider something theoretically or separately from (something else). "to abstract science and religion from their historical context can lead to anachronism" 2. extract or remove (something). "applications to abstract more water from streams" synonyms: extract, pump, draw (off), tap, suck, withdraw, remove, take out/away; More
Time for bed, said Zebedee - boing
keepin it real.
Would it be any different if he was charging a cheap Nolkia - or even his shaver?
We were called to Camden Road London Overground station on Friday 10 July to a report of a man becoming aggressive when challenged by a PCSO about his use of a plug socket onboard an Overground train.
While arrest may have been an overreaction, the guy was using a socket clearly marked not for public use and then seems to have become aggressive when asked to unplug his phone. Maybe he needs to look at his own behaviour as well.
----------------------------------- My Other Sig Is Hilarious -----------------------------------
Don't you think a reprimand - "you can't do that here sir" - would have been more appropriate? He probably 'stole' less in monetary terms than if he'd used an excessive amount of loo paper.
Time for bed, said Zebedee - boing
You're funny :)
Time for bed, said Zebedee - boing
They have to do time as a PCSO BEFORE they can be considered for training as a real Policeman... this one had been reading the law books and looking for anything to make a mark with...
Donald 'Duck' Dunn: We had a band powerful enough to turn goat piss into gasoline.
In Barcelona you'll find free-to-use sockets on FGC trains, some bus stops and metro stations.Usually 5v USB sockets.
one abstract country
The guy ignored the signs on the outlets stating that they were for use by cleaners only, not by passengers.
The police dropped the original charge but he apparently couldn't keep from mouthing off to the officers involved about it so they arrested him again.
*Yawn*
Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
That's what you get for being pissy with the police.
"Oh, I'm sorry sir/ma'am, I wasn't aware that this is strictly prohibited. No,it won't happen again. Thank you sir/ma'am." .... and continue your day like nothing happened. Not that hard, is it? But I guess this guy had to cause trouble. I bet he got what he deserved.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
Technically it's theft. You've cost the rail company money (pittance though it may be) and potentially risked a fire by plugging an unknown device into an electrical socket.
Even in my workplace, that will get you disciplined. You at least have to get a PAT test before you can do that and it's only by the goodwill of the employer that they let you use the sockets.
Incredibly petty? Maybe. But that's not the point. And getting aggressive about it is what really gets you arrested and in trouble, you could have talked your way out of the first "arrest" without problem but it may have made you late for work.
But, yes, technically, it's not your socket, it's not your electricity, the sockets are CLEARLY marked that you're not allowed to do that, you didn't ask permission.
In my workplace (schools), we have told off parents for doing exactly this during open-days, etc. They just wander into the school and plug into the first socket they see and then leave the device on and charging and wander off.
We use threat of the same law to stop them doing it (but we probably wouldn't go so far as arrest, but arrest is NOT a charge - people always confuse this distinction - you arrest somebody to stop them leaving while you work out if they've actually committed a crime that anybody cares about), but we're not worried about the electricity cost as much as the electrical safety implications. If their cheap shit Chinese charger catches fire and burns down the school, we don't care who was liable, but our insurers and lawyers sure will.
And I'm not talking tiny state schools, but large independent (private) schools where pissing off a parent costs you more money than you earn in a year if they pull their kids out. But still we don't let them do it.
It's petty. But it's still theft, effectively (the name of the charge is just a specific one for theft of electricity). Arrest may be an overreaction but arrest is not charge. Getting aggressive over something you know you shouldn't have done (no matter how petty) gets you arrested twice, and certainly charged at least once.
Don't plug into other people's sockets without asking. And if you can't ask or think the answer might be no, don't plug into the socket anyway.
And then there's the question of how did you activate the socket because all the UK train sockets I see are keyed with a large hex-key in order to turn them on. It's not just a case of plugging in by accident not realising the socket wasn't for public use.
No story here.
Your absolutism costs lives. It locks people up who shouldn't be and follows them around for the rest of their lives. It also creates marginal deterrence problems. Proportional responses to violations of malum prohibitum "crimes" are called for. Proportional responses to malum in se crimes are even called for, but for malum prohibitum crimes there is no justification for absolutism.
To plug your phone into the wall should not be to get arrested, unless there is a gigantic sign saying "PLUGGING INTO THIS IS PROHIBITED." Even then, it should get a $50 civil fine and nothing on your record. What's more, it *shouldn't* be prohibited unless it creates problems.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/...
"13 Abstracting of electricity.
A person who dishonestly uses without due authority, or dishonestly causes to be wasted or diverted, any electricity shall on conviction on indictment be liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years."
So yes, the language is precisely correct.
Technically he has also committed a criminal offence.
However, PCSOs (which are sometimes known unaffectionately at "plastic policemen" are non warranted police officers with very limited powers. Most of their arresting powers are actually the same as those available to any citizen (aka "citizens arrest") and have very limited conditions of applicability. PCSOs do have some additional powers specially granted:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
However, they are a modern invention and of considerably lower status, both legally and in the public perception compared to the more traditional volunteer role of "Special Constable" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
The problem here is that PCSOs generally lack common sense and seem to be power-happy. Unfortunately their warranted colleagues feel some obligation to back them up, rather than telling them to grow up, as might be applicable in cases like this.
Unfortunately for the artist, even through he has been de-arrested, he now probably no longer qualifies for the visa waiver programme for entry to the USA as the US notion of arrest is somewhat different to the English notion and the USA as far as I know does not have a concept of "de-arrest".
So actual harm has been done. No wonder the public perception of the police is falling like a lead balloon.
Why can't women be like Hedy Lamarr - beautiful, talented and inventors of frequency-hopping spread-spectrum techn
Meanwhile in Estonia you can charge you battery on a train for free (well, after you buy the ticket).
Police Community Support Officers have no real power. They are just ordinary people, given a stupid looking uniform and a massive chip to carry around on their shoulders. So they shove their nose in where they can, try to act like they are important and have some useful purpose.
Best thing to do if they confront you is simply refuse to talk to them, and if possible walk away. They can't detain you. If they touch you it's assault and you can have them arrested. It's also not a bad idea to film them if they harass you, and put it on YouTube later.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Funny or not there wasn't anything untrue in his post. Cameron has stated on multiple occasions that strong encryption is aiding the enemy and that he wants government backdoors inside all encryption. The problem with that is there is an entire black-market of dedicated, intelligent people who are working to find these backdoors and sell access to them to other criminals. To think that the government could keep those backdoors a secret is naive and by weakening our encryption to ostensibly "detect terrorists" he is opening up everyone else using those weakened encryption schemes to attack by criminals.
On topic however, I've never had a problem when traveling in the United States with charging my laptop or phone using outlets in terminals while waiting to board. If they didn't want people using them they shouldn't have put them there in the first place. If they are only for maintenance workers, lock them down and distribute the key only to personal who need access. Don't leave it open and arrest anyone who happens to think they could charge their phone there without being cited or worse.
On the point of London being a shit-hole, I guess that's completely a matter of opinion. This isn't a shining example for the british however. Neither the officer nor the accused kept calm.
Only government can be wrong. If any problems exist, it must be government. Therefore your post will be ignored because it tries to blame the person who is actually at fault, and it's not government.
Because we pay government.
Apparently these people steal all the goods they require and therefore don't pay private industry at all.
On this actual subject, this is 100% LOL worthy and really did have me snigger because I'm thinking "WHAT THE HELL DO YOU THINK ELECTRICAL SOCKETS ARE FOR YOU DUMBASS!!!".
This is 100% absolutely an asshole and the subservience to private authority by virtue of being fucking wealthy and not a problem with government, but with the slavery of the proletariat by monied power.
And, yes, that DOES sound socialist.
Why? Because just like government can be a problem in abusing power, power given to capital is ALSO a problem.
So do folks from FBI. As do other intelligence agencies.
Did you have a point, or are you here just to throw dirt at one state and ignore everyone else?
I do it all the time on Swiss trains. Then again, if they put a socket above every seat (on modern trains at least), I somehow expect they won't mind.
I gave up sigs almost a year ago.
"Artist" with entitlement complex uses power socket on train clearly marked as "Cleaners only, not for public use".
Authorised authority requests that he stops using the socket, reminding him that it is illegal theft of service.
With any normal person this situation would have ended here. Guy behaves like a prat because he's entitled.
At the train pulls into the next station there's police officers standing around, and authorised authority requests assistance.
Guy is arrested under suspicion of theft of service due to statement by authorised authority. (Note, disobeying a reasonable direction by an authorised authority is an offence by itself, but that wasn't pursued). Guy continues to behave like an entitled prat.
Police decide not to press ahead theft of service and instead charge him with a anti-social behaviour offence (which can cover both the electricity theft and the behaviour towards the authorised authority). This charge is a relatively minor offence covered by fixed fines (or exclusion orders), similar to a parking or speeding fine. This reduces the overhead and cost on the justice system having to deal with this prat.
The police and authorised authority appeared to act in a reasonable manner. The only unreasonable person is the "artist" that ignored a clear sign, stole service, then had the cheek to get aggressive when asked to stop.
Insane. Here in sweden we have a socket or two by every seat on the bigger trains, like the one going between Copenhagen and Stockholm. And even on the smaller ones you're totally free to use any sockets found in the public area of the train.
I think his point was quite clear in the very first sentance.
"It's funny cos it's true"
He just put more effort into describing why.
Frankly, there are too many police.
The original intention of 'protect and serve' seems now to be to 'bully, control and dominate'
I wouldn't be too sure about that: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/117572/pcso-powers.pdf
Not so powerless as you might think: https://www.gov.uk/government/... [www.gov.uk] In this case, she simply alerted 'real' police officers to the 'offence'. If the guy had not bercome aggressive I expect he would have been sent on his way.
Time for bed, said Zebedee - boing
...and then maybe he'll actually read the article, which states that there actually was a sign (as well as an explanation for why it's prohibited), and realize that he should feel foolish. Probably not, though; this is Slashdot, where facts get in the way of a good, solid, knee-jerk reaction.
There is a sign which says words to the effect of "Not for public use, for use of train company staff only." It then goes on to say it's not a regulated power supply and you may well blow anything apart that you plug in to it.
the police man was just enforcing the laws written by the legislature. He was just doing the job he was supposed to be doing.
So what you are essentially saying... is that he was "just following orders".
Too soon in the comments?
You do realise that this is exactly how it was, right? There was a sign, and it exists because plugging in might damage your equipment. From TFA:
Language consists not of what is written in reference books, that is a mere snapshot of language use. Language is what is in daily use.
Hear, hear!
It's a perfectly cromulent use of the word!
"unless there is a gigantic sign saying "PLUGGING INTO THIS IS PROHIBITED"
From the linked article:
"Electricity sockets on Overground trains are clearly marked with the words: “cleaners use only and not for public use”
Ha, you got to hand it to the police community support officer, she must have been bored or maybe, just maybe she is the hero and saved the tax payer from paying 0.003 pennies in electricity.
Silly. Reading the article doesn't change my position; like I said, even in that case, a civil fine and not an arrest is the most that is justified. And then maybe you'll read to the next sentence of my comment, which covered that case.
Why would I read TFA when I can just put a default case at the bottom of my switch statement? :)
The company/government department could've put in charging booths that charge (heh) a nominal fee for service. It's not hard, hell, it's already being done at airports, entertainment centres and other large, public-access areas.
They're no different to a vending machine or those storage locker things, just plop your money in, open the little door, plug your phone in to one of the range of mini/micro/apple chargers and wait. 20c (~10p?) For 10 minutes, $1/hour. Simple, sorted.
This would:
- Solve the problem of 'leeching' power
- Bring in some revenue
- Make stories like this a non-issue.
"unless there is a gigantic sign saying "PLUGGING INTO THIS IS PROHIBITED"
From the linked article:
"Electricity sockets on Overground trains are clearly marked with the words: “cleaners use only and not for public use”
Thank you! That makes it less absurd to punish him, although I still think a civil fine is more appropriate than an arrest.
Attractive nuissance.
If they didn't want people using the outlets, they'd either omit them, or use an outlet/plug design that was incompatible with standard plugs, and there wouldn't be a problem. It's not like the vacuum cleaners are being taken home and used by the transit staff, so a permanent modification wouldn't be a problem.
Yeah ofcourse he was arrested only for using the socket........... He propably was told it was illegal to use the socket and was written a fine, but then he got a big mouth and that's why he got arrested, and trying to arrest him he got even agressive and that was the second offence.. There are always 2 sides to the story, and ofcourse according to him, he did nothing and only used the outlet...
Then again, why don't they just replace the socket with a plug that isn't compatible with any consumer plug... But people are getting more bold/rude and think they can just charge their device anywhere without permission.. I've seen it a lot in bars etc, people just unplugging an appliance or light just to charge their f-ing phone and not even putting the plug back in, and all without asking..
Thank god I live in Switzerland. Power sockets are seen as part of the service on the federal railway and are even available in the 2nd class coaches.
London isn't actually a separate country yet, though most of the rest of the UK wishes that it was.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
In UK, "You can't do that here, Sir!" said in proper voice should be a lot more embarassing to perpetrator than being handcuffed in public...
from the flamebaid title to the idiotic tags, this is an absolutely shitty submission, through and through
Is this slashdot anymore?
Who the hell accepted this submission? samzenpus? Go gargle some brake fluid.
Looking for people to chat about multicopters, coding, music. skype: gtsiros
Technically it's theft. You've cost the rail company money (pittance though it may be) and potentially risked a fire by plugging an unknown device into an electrical socket.
I stopped reading here and I'm seriously hoping you're kidding. "risked a fire"? Seriously?
Apple recalled millions of their original iPhone/iPod touch chargers. The small 5W USB adapter, they were a fire hazard. They still use the design, last I checked they still put the little green dot on them that differentiated the later safer models from the original hazardous models.
It's really just a matter of putting a sign above it saying "For staff use only" or similar. Then, you can at least say you told them before you arrest them.
A fool and his hard drive are soon parted.
You sir are an intolerant dickwad.
It uses a tiny amount of electricity, yet you threaten them with arrest? If they turned on the lights would you arrest them? If they used the toilet without asking first arrest? How about you just LIGHTEN UP and quit being such a jobsworth!
"And I'm not talking tiny state schools, but large independent (private) schools where pissing off a parent costs you more money than you earn in a year if they pull their kids out. But still we don't let them do it."
Do you think it would be acceptable in a cheap public school?? That makes no difference, its a minor thing, like walking in the wrong door, or not 'standing on the right' on an escalator, don't revel in being such a dick, because people treating each other as dicks over minor things make life a PITA. You make life a PITA.
To plug your phone into the wall should not be to get arrested, unless there is a gigantic sign saying "PLUGGING INTO THIS IS PROHIBITED."
Well, there generally *is* a notice on the socket saying that it is not for public use.
Even then, it should get a $50 civil fine and nothing on your record.
If there was a fine, it would probably be denomiated in British Pounds.
What's more, it *shouldn't* be prohibited unless it creates problems.
In fact, it does create problems, although mainly for the user. The socket is intended for use by the cleaning staff when the train is stationary in the depot and connected to a fixed power source. When the train in motion, the power supply to the socket comes directly from the power coming into the train from the overhead cables or third rail; it is massively variable, with sufficiently large drop-offs and spikes that it could seriously damage equipment like phones or laptops that are plugged into it.
So in case any of you were thinking of following this guy's example, you might want to reconsider.
Thank you! That makes it less absurd to punish him, although I still think a civil fine is more appropriate than an arrest.
I think that is what happened, from the wording of the summary he didn't get arrested until he started acting crazy about it; thus getting arrested for "unacceptable behaviour".
Sig: I stole this sig.
Ahem Let's spend thousands of pounds over 6 pence worth of electricity
Read the article. There is a sign on it saying it's for staff use only. It's also a very bad idea to use it when the train is in motion, as it can get massive power surges as the train crosses from one power zone to another.
Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
Meanwhile, in Germany, most trains include power sockets precisely so passengers can charge their laptops/phones/whatever.
These would be the sockets that say "not for public use" on them. The sockets that are provided for the cleaners to plug their vacuum cleaners into and, if used when the train is operating, could be subjected to power spikes and liable to fry your electronics and cause a fire? Yeah, I have no sympathy. I don't doubt the police could be doing better things (although I'm no engineer, if this really does pose a serious safety risk, perhaps it is a good use of their time) but when you're on someone else's train you play by someone else's rules. If that means not using the sockets, so be it.
it's a fucking epidemic where I work. Kids have 0 respect for anything especially school property so they will just unplug anything and plug their fucking phone in and then when they leave just leave shit unplugged when they're done.
They also think every computer is a charging station and that it's perfectly okay to have their phone out and using it 24/7. It's technically against the rules but they're not enforced because literally every single kid has one and administrators gave up. They're all on free lunch (supposedly because of poverty) too but have phones and most of them have something expensive.
It gets worse, every time there is even the tiniest altercation or anything at all the phones come out and there are 800 videos, some of them make the news making schools look more dangerous than they actually are. I could write a novel about this after the years I've spent posting A/C no one will read this anyway.
captcha: anarchic
They used to arrest people in the Los Angeles subways for the same thing - but the Mayor finally stopped the ridiculous practice:
"This is simply common sense. I want our law enforcement resources directed toward serious crime, not cell phone charging."
http://www.scpr.org/news/2014/...
From the linked article:
"Electricity sockets on Overground trains are clearly marked with the words: “cleaners use only and not for public use”
The sign sounds more like "we cannot be held responsible if this destroys your device" than a hard interdiction. Besides it's a really stupid way of doing things: they should just have a switch to turn off electricity to all these switches in the driver's compartment. The drivers would just have to turn the switch on/off when taking/parking the train (they already have a checklist to go through). Then the public can safely plug in all they want, without risk of 'abstracting' electricity or damaging their equipment.
It causes problems because the voltage spikes and can cause surges as the train is travelling. They are intended to be used inside stations by cleaning staff, which is why they're out of the way and marked with big signs saying "NOT FOR PUBLIC USE". Instead of a civil fine, or a criminal charges, he was later de-arrested, which is legally equivalent to having never been arrested in the first place.
For someone refusing to follow the rules and becoming aggressive to a police officer telling him to, this seems a proportionate response.
That is the easy fix. If they stick power outlets on trains that are not meant for the public, then they should ensure it doesn't work for the public. For example by using a non-standard power outlet that does not accept standard charger plugs, and perhaps by supplying some unusable power level through it. Like 400V or so. That will teach the public really quick.
To Terminate, or not to Terminate, that's the question - SCSIROB
Huh? You say:
To plug your phone into the wall should not be to get arrested, unless there is a gigantic sign saying "PLUGGING INTO THIS IS PROHIBITED."
There is a giant sign saying that, and explaining that the reason for it is safety, and he didn't unplug it when asked, and got aggressive towards a group of police officers, and ultimately had neither criminal charges, civil fines nor even the arrest itself on his record.
Am a Londonner, wouldn't want people like this dealt with any other way.
If I see a sign that says "not for public use" then I, as a member of the public, wouldn't even consider using it.
Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.
When I clicked on the link to see the definition of "abstracting electricity", in the section on case law the offense cited was meter tampering. As in substantionally "more than a few electrons." The cost of prosecution would far exceed the cost of the electricity used. (I would also see where this particular law would apply to unauthorized taps or splices, where the power draw would be signifiant.)
One issue the article did bring up: the power at that train-car outlet isn't at all clean. If it uses external power pickup (third rail or overhead catenary) I could see where the surges, sags and dropouts would be severe enough to damage a phone or laptop, especially as the drive motors of the train, a highly inductive load, would cause very large spikes as the power pickup loses and re-makes contact. Contrast that with a long-haul train which supplies power from a locomotive generator, which shouldn't flicker at all.
So it could well be that there is a cause for action of a different sort: "We are not liable for any damage caused by plugging anything into the outlets on this train."
Never mind about the de-arrest. For that he can now legitimately claim he was never arrested in the first place.
However, it is of academic interest only because he is now under proper arrest for his behaviour towards the PCSO.
All I want is a secure system where it's easy to do anything I want. Is that too much to ask ~~ Randall Munroe
"a 45-year-old artist based in Islington"
Get a proper job, you stupid fucking hipster.
Summation 2
most of the airports and stations I use have free charging points.
The story here is someone was stupid enough to go to London then act surprised when it turned out to be a shit hole.
A lot of trains in the UK have charging points for public use. They even have wi-fi on parts of the Underground now. However, the socket in question was apparently clearly marked "not for public use". The man knew he could get into trouble, he was just a bit surprised at how much.
I mean, we're talking about the country that wants to make secure online shopping and banking illegal.
Nope. The country does not want to do that. The Prime Minister of the country wants to introduce certain measures that, as a side effect, would make secure online shopping and banking illegal, but there's no evidence that the country as a whole would like that idea if they knew what the consequences were.
The place is an international joke.
You can find crazy things about any country that makes it an international joke in the eyes of everybody else. If you are an American you should understand that everybody else thinks of US gun laws as a dangerous joke and the fact that it seems their police officers would shoot a man for stealing electricity as arrest him (if he is black) would be viewed as a joke if it were not so tragic.
All I want is a secure system where it's easy to do anything I want. Is that too much to ask ~~ Randall Munroe
Don't you think a reprimand - "you can't do that here sir" - would have been more appropriate?
It sounds like that's exactly what the PCSO did. The problem is that rather than stopping, or even stopping while protesting it, instead he was a total asshole about it and continued to do it even though he was informed it was illegal. For any value of "it," the guy was a dumbass. If you're informed something is against the law and you refuse to stop doing it right in front of an officer, what do you expect to happen?
In France, on their TGVs (High speed trains) there are outlets for every seats. ....
ditto in Germany, Luxembourg, Belgium
The London Tourist office is surely not amused.
Funny or not there wasn't anything untrue in his post. Cameron has stated on multiple occasions that strong encryption is aiding the enemy and that he wants government backdoors inside all encryption. The problem with that is there is an entire black-market of dedicated, intelligent people who are working to find these backdoors and sell access to them to other criminals. To think that the government could keep those backdoors a secret is naive and by weakening our encryption to ostensibly "detect terrorists" he is opening up everyone else using those weakened encryption schemes to attack by criminals.
Cameron is not "the country". More than 60% of the people here didn't want him as prime minister. I guess that means you can claim our voting system is a joke...
If they didn't want people using them they shouldn't have put them there in the first place.
The socket had a sign on it saying "not for public use". That should have been enough to stop him using it.
All I want is a secure system where it's easy to do anything I want. Is that too much to ask ~~ Randall Munroe
So if I poke round your garden and find an external socket you won't mind me using it?
an android or windows phone? would he have been so 'abused'? ok, maybe the three people who own win phones might not live in london, and anyway, why was he on the train mixing with the hoi-poli, why didn't he use uber?
Charging his phone up from a socket not intended for the purpose? Trivial. It's antisocial behaviour, but I seriously doubt he needed to do anything more than stop, apologise and plead stupidty.
Getting aggressive with a PCSO when asked to stop? The man's clearly an idiot. No need to pretend.
I was born and lived in Yorkshire, England for 20 years, a place that has a light-hearted reputation for being tight with money. A couple of years ago my girlfriend and I went on a road trip and visited Yorkshire. We had breakfast in a cafe where I plugged in my phone. The owner came over and started talking about how we were putting him out of business and electricity isn't cheap etc. We thought he was joking at first. But then he asked us for 50p to cover the cost of the electric. He was serious.
"Don't you think a reprimand - "you can't do that here sir" - would have been more appropriate?"
What makes you think he didn't get that? The problem was that he got aggressive and anti-social in response.
Bah, they are just abstracting the language. Perfectly good.
The kids from school that became coppers were the snide ones. The others may not start out like that; but they deal with horrible people everyday. They become insane. I worked with a plastic copper for 4 years. The Us Vs Them mentality he had was horrible.
Don't talk or deal with them. Always be ultra polite to the police. Yes Officer, No Officer, 3 bags full Officer. Get away from them.
She may have been horrible when dealing with him, he was horrible back. They real police where not going to take his side.
The 0.0001p of electric used was never the issue.
COMPLY
Unfortunately for the artist, even through he has been de-arrested, he now probably no longer qualifies for the visa waiver programme for entry to the USA
So a win-win situation then? He can no longer be forced by his kids to go to Disneyland.
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
Bureau of silly cops.
I expect this outlet had no signage interdicting use, no trained spider chained there with a floss leash to bite charge thieves?
I ask, why not....?
Mostly so we can move there and maybe have a sane government once in a while.
When are they going to start charging for air? Or maybe give us all pills so we stop abstracting electricity like in the movie EQUILIBRIUM
Your link seems to be broken.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
That's exactly why they are for staff use only - they're only supposed to be used when the train is in the depot, not while it is in motion.
Newer trains have sockets fed from an inverter that don't have this problem - but they're limited in power output, which is why they're labelled as for mobile phones and laptops only.
Totally different from my interpretation of that notice. I see that as meaning they're not for public use, so the public shouldn't use them. I don't see how there's room for interpretation there...
http://www.met.police.uk/pcso/...
Time for bed, said Zebedee - boing
It's because of the police and the retarded law makers.
If you were drunken disorderly, walking the street drunk off your ass, the cops used to grab you and make you sleep it off in the drunk tank.
Today, they ruin your life for ever.
No wonder cops are universally hated. Police today are chosen to be drones that do as they are told, not high IQ types that can think for themselves. The laws are designed to punish everyone severely that even brush up against the law.
It will come to a head, and it is going to get very ugly.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Excessive Loo paper use is a capitol offense that will get you 20 years of hard labor.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
SCs have power of arrest (as a police officer, because they are police officers) unlike PCSOs who only have citizen levels. There's a whole bunch of "school prefect" style additions in order to keep someone around until an officer can arrest them if that officer deems it valid, but apart from that they are little more than a member of the public in a hi-viz jacket.
"Wait. Something's happening. It's opening up! My God, it's full of apricots!"
The guy was lucky there was a PCSO on the train. If his Apple charger decided to object to the out-of-spec supply by blowing up and happened to trip the train breakers, that PCSO might have been the only thing between the iphone idiot and a whole lot of London commuters about to deliver a well deserved kicking - one boot each, Murder on the Camden Express.
Best thing to do if they confront you is simply refuse to talk to them, and if possible walk away. They can't detain you. If they touch you it's assault and you can have them arrested
Yeah, right. The cops you call to "arrest" the PCSO are somewhat unlikely to take your side against theirs, it's tantamount to calling the cops to arrest another cop. Unless there is a massive indication in your favour (e.g. the PCSO has tied you to a lamppost and whipped you with barbed wire) , you're not going to be believed.
Anyway, in reality the PCSO would call the real cops to arrest you first, and the story would be that you were asked to do something and reacted violently/abusively.
As with the iphone bloke in this case, is it really worth losing your temper and spending several hours in a police cell over? If a PCSO asks you to do something reasonable, just do it, rather than turning into Captain Civil Rights.
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
Two sheet limit. Use both sides. Twice if you have to.
Human Rights, Article 12: Freedom from Interference with Privacy, Family, Home and Correspondence
the problem here is that you HAVE to do a spell as a PCSO before you can apply to become a real Policeman... this one was especially jumped up and keen and had probably read the charge book and remembered the abstraction of electricity charge and decided to try and get a 'gold star'...
Donald 'Duck' Dunn: We had a band powerful enough to turn goat piss into gasoline.
Instead, he acted like a knob towards the PCSO who pointed out that there was in effect a gigantic sign saying "PLUGGING INTO THIS IS PROHIBITED" and subsequently to the actual police officers who turned up, so they arrested him for "being a total arse bucket in public" (or whatever the technical term is).
Obviously no one was ever going to be prosecuted for stealing GBP 0.02 of electricity.
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
Wow, I didn't realize England was full of sheep.
Yes. And you can own guns in Switzerland as well. And use encryption. And when you meet some member of the parliament or even the federal council on the tram (because they use public transportation) you can wave them hello and they will wave back.
The City, for historic reasons, is semi-independent. It's one of those vestigial structures where they have a lot of power on paper, but a general agreement never to actually use it. They do have their own police force and a 'shadow government' headed by the Lord Mayor.
We do like our traditions. Plus it can be used for tax avoidance.
*City of London Police, considered a world-class force in prosecuting fraud, but most widely despised as the source of PIPCU and their loose concept of jurisdiction.
Why does the train have operational, accessible sockets if they are not to be used by the PAYING passengers??
Haha You arrest a man just for charging phone how dumb!
In other news, Marcel Duchamp has been arrested for abstracting art.
You are welcome on my lawn.
Funny, here in Stockholm the use of the cleaners wall sockets in the newest commutertrains for gadget charging has been common practice for many years. There's now even official stickers showing where they are. Even better, the new bus model that's just being rolled out this summer have two USB charging sockets per double seat (newspaper article in swedish) and one socket at the weelchair spot (shared with any strollers).
20 years of hard labor
First, that should be "labour". Second, you will be put on a low fiber diet for those twenty years, so the labour isn't all that will be hard hard.
You know, this world isn't getting any better, it's just getting worse and worse.
Too many people are using the electrical outlets meant only for the cleaning crew. Authorities chose one to be made an example to the others. He's bitching about it.
PCSO is a Police Community Support Officer, these are not Police Officers, they have very limited powers (they cannot Arrest somebody) and are typically wannabe that cannot cut the grade and have very limited knowledge of the law and in this case even the English language given their confusion of the semantics difference between Abstration and Extraction.
UK Trains provide charging points for laptops and mobile phones and have signs announcing this, and this is also on the national rail website . These are low power and not suitable for a heavy load like a vacum cleaner.
"WiFi and power points for laptops and mobile phone chargers are available on some trains"
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/...
The guy was immediately 'de-arrested' and released by the custody Sergeant and why he will get compensation is due course for false arrest.
Stealing shouldn't be prohibited? What a brilliant concept.
If you were drunken disorderly
*Drunk and disorderly
That's why you film everything. Either they will behave because of the camera, or they will screw up and face the consequences. Make sure you have auto-upload turned on and a strong password set.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Florida has a grocery store that had a homeless man arrested for charging his phone with an outlet outside the store. He took perhaps 15 cents in electricity and was sentenced to seven months in jail. You see Florida really loves and cares for the homeless. It sort of gives a whole new meaning to Christian charity doesn't it?
Who knows what OTHER kinds of abstractions could get you nicked!
Abstracting the server layer - that's a week in the pound!
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
It's not theft.
It's arson.
When I saw that the was "abstracting", I immediately thought that he was using some type of object oriented electricity encapsulating or inheritance process. It turns out he was just stealing electricity. Perhaps there needs to be a little old man or woman standing by each outlet and charging people to plug in, similar to the use of toilets / WCs. I the US, there would be much outrage.
Which is totally opposite as it was half a century ago. At least, where I live. If you were too drunk to come home, you'd be taken by the cops to sleep it off and then you'd be able to go home without further consequences. Nowadays, if you drink too much you get arrested, it's added to your permanent record, a digital trail is created and you are labelled for life as an alcoholic.
On the other hand, real crime like robbery or burglary was a grave offence, meaning you'd be punished harshly and excommunicated from your family. These days they are handled as if they are victims of society, getting light sentences if caught at all (first offence a slap on the wrist, second offence some community service, and so on) and are usually out after a few hours. It will get ugly indeed.
From the article:
On a forum dedicated to the London Underground, members have pointed out that plug sockets on the trains are for cleaning equipment deployed when trains are in depots. They recommend not charging electronic equipment as there is a risk of power surge: âoeIf something was directly plugged into it (for example a standard computer, or a laptop without a battery in) the equipment would probably be damaged at any section gaps where the power supply changes from one substation to another!â
It's basically to avoid getting sued if a power surge breaks your device.
So assuming he fully-charged his iPhone 6 Plus, 11.1WH * 0.61 * 0.15/1000 = 0.00101565, he would have used 0.1 UK cents worth of electricity
11.1Wh * 0.61 ? i'm pretty sure if the efficiency is anything less than 100% it will take more energy to charge the battery and definitely not less... so shouldn't this be 11.1Wh * (1 / 0.61)?
Also i don't know what kind of crazy tiny cents you are using but there are only 100 penies in a GBP so it would be about 0.27p
If the train companies can get support from PCSOs to enforce Electricity Abstraction laws then I want to charge my train company for the daily abstraction of my time due to track/train related delays.
This accounts for a shed load more money wasted - my time plus thousands of other people's time - than a 10 minute charge of a bloody phone!
Paul Blart the mallcop....
Meanwhile, in Canada, man rides across country and charges e-bike along the way entirely for free. Calculates the cost at about 10cents a day.
Well, you'd be right, except that "destroying your device" may well lead to "starting a fire", which is a bit of a public safety issue on a moving train.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
You're correct. The US does not have a concept of "de-arrest".
Arrest is a simple detention and does not imply guilt or even accusation. It's merely a formality that the police stopped you from going about your business while they conducted a preliminary investigation of a suspected offense.
An arrest can even be made to protect someone from an external threat. Yeah, that means you can be completely innocent and known to the police as such, but still spend time in temporary lock-up while the police go track down an actual criminal that is threatening you.
Arrest carries little if any social stigma in the US beyond the most basic "haha! he got in trouble!" sort. An "arrest record" in the US is actually a conviction record, and a simple "catch-and-release" arrest will not be noted on it. This is what "innocent until proven guilty" means. And while everyone panics about that basic tenet of our legal system going away or being eroded, the fact is that it isn't anywhere near gone.
This guy won't be denied a visa by the US just because of this incident.
The "community police officer" is in the same business as the religious police in Saudi Arabia or Iran, or authorities in North Korea or Putin's Russia.
Congrats on not actually using the word "Gestapo", although it could hardly have been more hyperbolic otherwise.
Anyone who can equate asking someone not to use an outlet marked as not for public use and shipping people off to be flogged or interned in a labour camp is so far out of touch with reality it's not even amusing.
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
The man was charging at high speed... that is definitely dangerous.
OTOH, I thought people could only be arrested for factual crimes, not for abstracting ones.
Let's also take a lesson from all this to protect us in the future: beware of practical people, because they hate abstracting. One of these might kill you -- if that's more practical.
Finally, it's the UK: the arrested man could consider himself lucky that he wasn't shot right there in the train.
Estimated cellphone charger power usage:
(5 watts) * 30 minutes = 0.0025 kilowatt hours
1 kwh costs on average 0.14 GBP
So he stole 0.00035 GBP from the government, of course it's the government they'll spend tens of thousands trying to get it back.
The more reasonable responses would be to allow people to charge phones (and damage their chargers as they claim), or to write citations and harass those people by mail like the rest of the civilized world.
http://ghostbusters.wikia.com/...
Comment removed based on user account deletion
... On the other hand, real crime like robbery or burglary was a grave offence, meaning you'd be punished harshly and excommunicated from your family. These days they are handled as if they are victims of society, getting light sentences if caught at all (first offence a slap on the wrist, second offence some community service, and so on) and are usually out after a few hours. It will get ugly indeed.
Some privacy policy Slashdot.
Is it legal to do the same (I mean charge phone) on the airport?
I pay absurd airport fees so I take it for granted.
Same with subway, I paid for ticket, they provided outlet (without a note "for staff only") - I paid for it.
Maybe install a breaker then? Train moves, circuit opens.
That was hard to fix.
This reminds me of an article I read over the weekend where an audience member at a Broadway play jumped on stage to try and plug their phone into a prop socket. That's right, it wasn't even a socket on a wall, it was part of the stage scenery.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
It should not get you arrested, even if it is clearly marked. It should get you fined at most. The initial arrest seems absurd. Period.
If he became a complete raving mad man after that, well then that might be a reasonable arrest. However I think many people would be freaked out about being arrested for something so trivial. Give him the ticket and move on. If he continues give him another ticket. He will stop once the bill is high enough.
Seems like there are some thin-skinned police in the UK.
Stop squabbling, you're both right.
The US is a joke because of its stupid, poorly educated, flag-waving, bible-thumping, over-patriotic population and its completely out of control, corrupted, racist, military wannabe police force.
The UK is a joke because of its completely out of touch, totalitarian, CCTV-spamming, "let's-use-1984-as-a-manual", retarded politicians and their unfortunate policies. FFS, how can "unacceptable behaviour" be ground for an arrest? Like your citizens were unruly children.
outlet charges you....
Are you going to pay the engineer to add that in? Are you going to pay the additional cost of cleaning? Multiply by the parts and manpower needed by 1000 for every bus, train, subway. Add in the cumulative manpower over the course of the years. $15/hr cleaner * 0.002 hours (10 seconds to walk over and turn it on) * 365 days a year * 1,000 vehicles.
Almost $110K /yr assuming the switches magically appeared overnight..
How much would "abrupt phase changes" affect the switched-mode power supply in a typical USB charger?
FWIW most consumer devices are a considerable hazard as they have no 3rd prong "earth ground".
I thought the double insulation between housing and any line-level power supply was supposed to eliminate the need for case ground.
Because I know on the Amtrak Acela express trains there are outlets at every seat for the convenience of charging your stuff.
Just like the good old times. Post angers people. Read TFA and all those new details put it in a different light (he also later got 'unarrested'). And you get an even greater sense that you're still not getting the full story.
Many complain /. ain't what it used to be. But this is the classic /. type of content we're used to.
There's a reason why posts like these get the most replies.
Bonus points for misspelling 'extracting' as 'abstracting'. English ain't even my first language, but these words aren't even pronounced the same way.
Always read at -1, don't let others decide what you should and should not read.
Police Community Support Officers are nothing more than mini-Nazis. They're a bunch of nosy busybodies who love to strut their bullshit authority and poke their noses into EVERYTHING whether it concerns them or not. They're not that different than the Brown Shirts of Nazi Germany.
Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
If you've paid for a ticket to enter my garden just as this rider paid to board the train? Absolutely I wouldn't mind if you wanted to charge your phone.
Better know your law, people: abstracting electricity is a Statutory offence under the Theft Act 1968 and carries a sentence of FIVE YEARS.
You get less for fucking babies.
Political debates have me rolling my eyes so much I think I got optical whiplash. I should sue. - Foamy The Squirrel
In Soviet UK, phone charges you?
this is England, where convicted criminals in jail get to drag the UK through the European Court of Human Rights because they're not being provided with free Sky Sports, while entire families are being destroyed by the State on a daily basis while being denied proper representation, witnesses, or even a proper court of Law.
Political debates have me rolling my eyes so much I think I got optical whiplash. I should sue. - Foamy The Squirrel
you don't need a cop to arrest a PCSO who has assaulted you.
Political debates have me rolling my eyes so much I think I got optical whiplash. I should sue. - Foamy The Squirrel
if I find you poking around in my garden I will arrest you for trespass.
My bounded property is not a public right of way.
Political debates have me rolling my eyes so much I think I got optical whiplash. I should sue. - Foamy The Squirrel
1. why are their outlets on the train if they are not to be used?
why are there outlets on the train
Hahahaha...Ken Livingston...Hahahaha...Boris Johnson...Hahahaha...Diane Abbott...Hahahaha...George Galloway(2005-10)
But seriously, no, wrong.
Having lived in both places I can confirm the truth of the above completely. Now cue the replies from both sides (though mainly Brits, for the record I was born/raised there, left in my late 20's) claiming inaccuracy.
Was he doing any harm, apart from the absolutely tiny amount of power consumed? I seems a waste of police time. If he hadn't been challenged, he wouldn't have reacted and therefore no further offence committed.
Man charged with electricity theft !
... that shit suddenly got real.
I waited till early thirties. long after most of my peer group. no hope for that place. it's a sunken ship.
not really.
from what I've seen most of the us is pretty cool. just a few loud mouths that give it a bad name.
the loud mouths in the UK on the other hand actually give it a good name. place is run and owned by a tiny occult family who think they've got blue blood. and the rest of the country is best parodied by little Britain.
funny cos it's true.
nuff said.
Bingo, at best it is a bylaw offense.
Indeed, I can imagine the following being a rather effective approach by police/security. "Sir, you are aware that plugging in here isn't technically allowed, right?"
Just that. No follow-up action, no aggression, no consequences. Just let the individual know that you are paying attention. Odds are good that the person will apologize or explain. You are engaging them as a human being over a minor matter. Everyone knows what is going on and there's no escalation of the situation. The police might even find out that some people are illiterate, or not paying attention to signage, or are in a desperate situation with a need to use a discharged phone.
If the citizen chooses to escalate after that, well then maybe an arrest is called for.
Ah ok, I guess I should have RTFA.
A fool and his hard drive are soon parted.
No more abstract electricity!
what I just spent an hour reading is maybe the silliest thread I've read in some time.
Not only is the topic matter is about 10p in electricity! Really! It's about a petty private renta cop abusing power. It's about a perp simply saying sorry and defusing the encounter. It's about a Brit objecting to the American use of our system of currency and it's related postings......
Really guys? Really?
And you Brits criticize us Americans? The electricity used is minuscule. I'm floored this is a real issue.
Put cell chargers on the train. Any combustion engine produces more electric than it uses. Put outlets on the train where you swipe a credit card and you plug in for 1 hour to charge the phone. Make money stop being Nazis'
I've seen many a s.o on trains,always thought it was generous provision like WiFi;there no notices of indication they were not to used
A waste of olive resources id say especially after the man was later âoeun-arrestedâ for the offence.
Same in NYC, there were arrests that I know, then outlets started popping out here and there unreliably as any **offended one** would turn them off as soon as possible. DD offers plugs, very popular way to attract clients; DD workers shut them down and never fix them after broken, and the same happens in other chains. In the end free power for electronics is a technical problem but underlying it is the deep misery of individuals who cannot understand this is the modern world and using electricity is a MUST, portable electricity is a basic need, electricity becomes cheaper the more we use it, electronics are inexpensive in terms of electrical power, etc. This news comes out a few days after I see for the first time an individual, Indian, charging from an open outlet from the CEILING LIGHTS in a subway station, along with a power extension and ostensibly blocking one third of the corridor with his cable. I thought it was too much and risky! Particularly being one block away from an outlet bearing DD. No action was taken, but even I than am loaded with extra extra-charge batteries and solar chargers considered that discovery as a very last resort in case of a very real, personal, charging emergency... A serious study should be performed in both countries and the rest of the modern world to ENSURE (free and) sufficient and reliable outlets be widely available for electronics in the age of portable electronics! As a matter of Principle.
should be arrested for violation of Article 101: willful ignorance. Why? Overspending for an overrated phone that everybody knows has pitiful battery life but has spawned an entire industry of remoras of which said phone maker takes a cut of the spoils.
The blacks hold jail time and robbery as badges of honor.
This is another thing wrong with their culture in the United states. Outside of the USA, they are sane and normal people. and yes I do know there are sane and normal blacks here in the USA as well.
But even they hate the fact that the majority believe crime is good.
The outlets are marked for cleaners. They are only allowed to use them when the train is stopped.
If anyone uses them when the train was running it would have diverted the power available and slowed the train down.
The train may have been late and the rail company could be fined.
Hence the use of the word "abstracted".