Mozilla CEO: Windows 10 Strips User Choice For Browsers and Other Software

puddingebola writes: Mozilla CEO Chris Beard has sent an open letter to Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella complaining about the default settings in Windows 10. Users who upgrade to 10 will have their default browser automatically changed to the new Edge browser. Beard said, "We appreciate that it’s still technically possible to preserve people’s previous settings and defaults, but the design of the whole upgrade experience and the default settings APIs have been changed to make this less obvious and more difficult. It now takes more than twice the number of mouse clicks, scrolling through content and some technical sophistication for people to reassert the choices they had previously made in earlier versions of Windows. It’s confusing, hard to navigate and easy to get lost. ... We strongly urge you to reconsider your business tactic here and again respect people’s right to choice and control of their online experience by making it easier, more obvious and intuitive for people to maintain the choices they have already made through the upgrade experience.

Comments

If you think Windows is bad

[NotDrWho]

Try using a non-Safari-based browser in iOS

Re:If you think Windows is bad

[Anonymous Coward]

They know. Actually, they know probably more than you know about it, considering that they refuse to launch an iOS version because Apple will not approve anything that ships it's own browsing engine. That means no Gecko or Blink. Chrome is just a shell on top of the OS's version of WebKit and Mozilla would rather not do the same with Firefox.

Re:If you think Windows is bad

[Karlt1]

Or try using a non-Firefox browser with the Firefox OS.
Or try using a non-Chrome browser with the Chrome OS.

Re:If you think Windows is bad

[Guspaz]

It's the javascript engine that's the problem, not the rest of it. Opera on iOS, for example does not use WebKit, or at least it doesn't in turbo mode. They do the javascript execution on the server side and feed you the results. The downside is lower compatibility, the upside is it can be MUCH faster when you're on a really slow or shoddy connection.

Re:If you think Windows is bad

[Penguinisto]

Pretty much this. GP forgot that mobile !=desktop, and Firefox/Mozilla was complaining about the desktop restrictions.

Re:If you think Windows is bad

[DrXym]

It's Apple's stupid protectionist policies that are the problem.

Re:If you think Windows is bad

[Anonymous Coward]

When will geeks realize that the average person doesn't care. They'd rather have appliances that work than tinker toys.

Re:If you think Windows is bad

[Anonymous Coward]

Not at all. iOS is UNIX. Nice try though Apple zealot.

Re:If you think Windows is bad

[Karlt1]

[pedantic]
iOS is not Unix (and neither is Linux). the Open Group has a legal trademark on what is Unix and only operating systems that pass the certification can call themselves "Unix". OS X is certified Unix, iOS is not.
[/pedantic]

Re:If you think Windows is bad

[hydrofix]

I think it's the very goal of Microsoft to blur the line between "desktop" and "mobile". Case and point: Windows Store (which will now be a much more prominent part of the OS) uses the same kind of app permission and sandboxing model as Android and iOS.

Re:If you think Windows is bad

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem is that people SHOULD care. People NEED to care about the technology that they supposedly just can't live without. Why would you go out and buy a car if you didn't know how to drive it? You can't just "expect the appliance to work" without understanding the appliance in the first place. The fact that you and several million others don't care about who or what controls your data is not only frightening, it is laughably stupid. Like friends and family who complain about NSA spying and privacy concerns while using facebook on their smart phone.

Re:If you think Windows is bad

[Guspaz]

Everything has its trade-offs. iOS tends to have less issues with malware and reliability than other platforms, but you trade a bunch of flexibility for that. I'm willing to accept that trade-off.

Re:If you think Windows is bad

[rubycodez]

funny, plenty of those 'fat americans' use that linux distro known as "Android" without problem

Re:If you think Windows is bad

[Coren22]

Despite it being very easy, not every person who owns a car knows how to change the oil, change a tire, or replace brake pads. Not every computer user knows how computers work, and I would suspect that many people who drive cars consider internal combustion to be a black box process.

Re:If you think Windows is bad

[Anonymous Coward]

Not the same AC, and I agree that that other AC is a troll, but you aren't much better.

most folks have a life and don't have time to sit in their mom's basement (like you) and figure out Linux and how to use SUDO and scripting and all the other hoops you have to jump thru to make Linux (or another other OS that only us geeks can use) usable

Do you have any examples of the kinds of things the average user would want to do that they would need to jump through hoops in order to accomplish? Aside from playing a Windows game, I cannot think of anything.

Re:If you think Windows is bad

[ADRA]

Its almost like... in those cases the OS is a specially crafted web browsing tool instead of a GENERAL PURPOSE operating system.

Nobody's assuming that a phone / tablet / netbook have unlimited control (though it is nice when given), but for a general purpose OS, you expect fluidity. I guess some of the big shifts in Windows since 8 (maybe earlier, but in much smaller doses) has been their ham-strung proprietary and irreplacible components that lock down more and more of the OS. This may well be my last Windows if Linux Gaming becomes more of a thing. If the last couple years' growth has been any indication, it looks like a real possibility now.

Re:If you think Windows is bad

[Anonymous Coward]

Or try using a non-Firefox browser with the Firefox OS.
Or try using a non-Chrome browser with the Chrome OS.

Point of clarification. 99.999% of Chrome/Firefox OS users voluntarily chose that OS to get the fuck away from IE/Microsoft and prefer the browser that comes with it.

I thought that was rather obvious to most.

Re:If you think Windows is bad

[rubycodez]

Sorry but UNIX with all caps is the trademark, while many non-certified systems are Unix. For example OpenBSD and DragonFly are BSD Unix (and many would argue of higher quality and security than the certified UNIX(tm) systems)

Re:If you think Windows is bad

[Anonymous Coward]

Why would you go out and buy a car if you didn't know how to drive it?

Is that what this is like? Or is this more like buying a car without knowing how to rebuild an engine?

I'm not saying it is like that, I'm simply saying that being able to come up with a convincing-looking analogy proves nothing. Remember, there is no proof by analogy.

Re:If you think Windows is bad

[Anonymous Coward]

Try using a non-Safari-based browser in iOS

If these lusers cared about choice they wouldn't be using Windows or iOS. Doing something about that would require getting a clue, why it might even mean a little reading, and that's enough to stop most fat Americans from doing much of anything.

I know I am obviously feeding a troll (and you are some overseas elitist fuck), but most folks have a life and don't have time to sit in their mom's basement (like you) and figure out Linux and how to use SUDO and scripting and all the other hoops you have to jump thru to make Linux (or another other OS that only us geeks can use) usable. I have no problem with Linux and have used it quite often, but most 'fat americans' just want their computer to work and to allow them to do their tasks on a day to day basis.

That kind of laziness is a luxury they cannot afford if they want to retain the freedom and control over their own data. I don't like it either and it is hard to find time to educate yourself when you have a career and a family, sure, but I manage and if I can do it, so can another - how's that for elitism?

I want world peace too, but shutting down every police department would be a mistake and a nation would be foolish to completely dismantle its defenses. "I just want it to work with no effort or investment on my part" is likewise a child's fantasy, an appeal to some kind of perfect world that we just don't live in. It would be just fine, in a world with no malicious hackers, no untrustworthy corporations, no corrupt governments, and no Big Data in which nothing is ever forgotten. That's just not the world we have today. I believe in dealing with reality as it is now, however inconvenient that may be, while working to change and improve it.

"I just want it to work with no effort or investment" amounts to denial and would put me at a tremendous disadvantage, at the mercy of the Microsofts and Apples and Googles of the world, entities that do not have my best interests at heart. Perhaps one day in some kind of Star Trek utopia, we will have that, but not today. If we aren't honest about how things are and how they came to be that way, if we make excuses based on some unrealistic ideal of how things ought to be, then we will never have that beautiful sort of world.

Re:If you think Windows is bad

[fluffernutter]

I'd say it is like buying a car and not knowing how to do simple things, like add oil or washer fluid.

Re:If you think Windows is bad

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, I can't even describe in words how much I don't want to hang out with you...

Has anyone actually used the word 'luser' since about 2005 (the last time you ventured out of your mom's basement no doubt)?

Re:If you think Windows is bad

[fluffernutter]

To say that it *is* unix means that it should be accessible like unix, which means a filesystem, which isn't accessible. Otherwise it is just an appliance that happens to be built with unix.

Re:If you think Windows is bad

[AchilleTalon]

Perhaps that's the deal Microsoft intends to offer to its customers with Windows 10. I don't believe either one is an acceptable approach. For sure, you can always say to the customer, let me control everything in exchange I will guarantee you a more secure platform. Even if it is not true, it is very unlikely next door guy will notice.

Re:If you think Windows is bad

[Anonymous Coward]

The browser in FirefoxOS may be Gecko based, but it is a far cry from being a Firefox browser.

Re:If you think Windows is bad

[UnknownSoldier]

Huh? Running Chrome works on iOS 6.1.2 -- sure it will crash but that is due to running 50+ tabs.

I've had Safari crash too.

Both problems are related to low memory conditions.

Re:If you think Windows is bad

[Anonymous Coward]

WTF is "case and point?"

Re:If you think Windows is bad

[StikyPad]

Android is to Linux what OS X is to BSD.

Re:If you think Windows is bad

[sgage]

He meant 'case in point', a common expression.

Re:If you think Windows is bad

[rubycodez]

Nope, in fact it is the opposite situation. OS X has the BSD userland

But a Linux distro only need have the Linux kernel, period

Android is a Linux, deal with it

Re: If you think Windows is bad

[Karlt1]

You really think the trademark only covers UNIX and that a none certified version can call itself "Unix" without getting sued?

Open BSD on their home page don't describe Open BSD as Unix. They describe it as "Unix Like".

Re:If you think Windows is bad

[StikyPad]

From a UX standpoint, Android is a completely different animal from any Linux distro out there. And for that matter, the kernel is modified as well.

I mean, we can have a nice long philosophical "Ship of Theseus" debate, but if it rings like a smartphone...

Re:If you think Windows is bad

[operagost]

It was those fat French* who demanded that Microsoft deliver an OS without a web browser at all, wasn't it?

* I'll assume Gerard Depardieu represents all French people, just like McDonalds represents all American cuisine and heavy drinking represents all Irish.

Re:If you think Windows is bad

[hattable]

Since its release I haven't even opened the iOS Safari. Chrome is amazing. Giving yourself a while of forcing yourself to use it and all of the gestures and buttons and workflow will become natural before long.

Re:If you think Windows is bad

[golgotha007]

> Not at all. iOS is UNIX.

I love UNIX. I hate iOS. What were you saying again?

Re:If you think Windows is bad

[dunkelfalke]

Depardieu is Russian now, so you are barking up the wrong tree.

Re: If you think Windows is bad

[Anonymous Coward]

Somebody please mod up. Good AC post.

Re: If you think Windows is bad

[Anonymous Coward]

Yea I've been running chrome on iOS for 2 years at least.

Re:If you think Windows is bad

[spire3661]

iOS is not the same kind of OS as Windows. Dishonest comparison.

Re: If you think Windows is bad

[Anonymous Coward]

Pretty much proves that there is no free market in this area. The anti-monopoly rules are a huge failure. They are not making stuff that people want. They are basically forcing people to buy this. MS should have been shredded ten years ago. And Google five years ago.

Re:If you think Windows is bad

[Anonymous Coward]

Except in Android, you can pick whatever rendering engine you want... It's just a simple 10 line code (user side) saying "hey, I'm a [browser/camera/word processor/etc] and a simple UI a grade schooler could code.

Why would you distinguish between Desktop and Mobile? 99% of desktop functionality COULD be duplicated on mobile save a few things.

Re:If you think Windows is bad

[Anonymous Coward]

Complaining about Firefox or Chrome OS not letting you choose a default browser is like complaining that Microsoft doesn't let you replace Windows with Mac OS. It's actually a fundamental part of the system, unlike Windows/IE or iOS/Safari. And if (for some reason) someone wrote a web browser browser plugin for either Chrome or Firefox, I don't think either one would do anything to stop them.

A more apt comparison would be Android... which most certainly does let you change the default web browser and does not block browser apps from their store.

Re:If you think Windows is bad

[Anonymous Coward]

No, it doesn't. It's a Apple's WebView wrapped with Chrome UI.

Re:If you think Windows is bad

[david_thornley]

Apple has maybe 20% of the market where iOS competes. An Android phone can do pretty much anything an iPhone can do. Apple does not have a monopoly.

Microsoft Windows is on 90-95% of the world's desktops and laptops. A non-Windows system cannot do nearly everything a Windows system can do (in particular, run Windows-compatible software reliably). Microsoft does have a monopoly.

If you don't like an iOS restriction, you can buy an Android equivalent, maybe rebuy some apps, and you're in business. If you don't like a Windows restriction, you can't move to Mac OSX or Linux and rebuy all your software, because much of it that you are likely to need for business or entertainment simply doesn't run off Windows.

Re:If you think Windows is bad

[david_thornley]

Pouring oil into the correct hole is something that's physical and obvious, it's pretty clear that you're doing it right, and if you're a little off it won't harm the car noticeably. Changing settings in a control panel is an intellectual action with poor feedback, and if you get it wrong you can do nasty things to your system.

Re:If you think Windows is bad

[ConceptJunkie]

So supposably, for all intensive purposes, he meant "case in point", right?

Here, here.

Re:If you think Windows is bad

[Anonymous Coward]

If you don't like an iOS restriction, you can buy an Android equivalent,

And if you don't like the Windows restriction, you can buy an Apple PC or download Linux. There's nothing at all stopping you.

Re:If you think Windows is bad

[Anonymous Coward]

The "Chrome" browser in iOS is just a reskin built on top of the Safari engine. Apple requires all browsers on iOS to do this.

Re:If you think Windows is bad

[Anonymous Coward]

I would of said the term of speech "can't see the forest through the trees" is a mute point when they are by enlarge one in the same, but case and point unless it happened on accident irregardless of whether it's a deep seeded belief or you were chomping at the bit, towing the line, getting your nipples in a twist or could care less, calling you Escape Goat is a damp squid per say, but getting to the crutch of the matter in this day in age being straight as a narrow is better than being soaping wet on tenderhooks since time in memorial, though on the same token for all intensive purposes in lame mans terms to hold down the fort is comprised of the core tenants when worst comes to worst, so to cut to the cheese instead of giving up the goat I'll take another tact at the death nail and won't cut off your nose despite your face because after all is set and done when the chickens come home to roast the proof is in the pudding and since you have a long road to hoe with a myriad of something or rather to do of upmost importance I have the courage in my conviction to be internally grateful it all goes well and I hardly recommend it.

Re: If you think Windows is bad

[Anonymous Coward]

I haven't got any mood points, but if I had you'd get all of them.

Re: If you think Windows is bad

[Anonymous Coward]

All good until you see brake fluid poured into power steering or vice versa and the damage it causes by someone who assumes it is essentially the same.

Re: If you think Windows is bad

[Anonymous Coward]

What's sad is this is just the beginning of all the articles complaining about Windows 10 this and that. All the Linux kids will post all their greatest hits on how awesome their distribution is far better than Windows 10. Of course it doesn't matter that Linux desktop users make up less than 2% of all OS installs. I think Windows Vista is used on more desktops and laptops than all Linux desktops combined.

I just finished the Windows 10 upgrade to my Lenovo Z50-75 running an AMD A10-7300. I didn't have a single issue during the upgrade from Win7 and this was the first time I've messed with Windows 10. All my previous default apps work just find including Firefox 38.0.5 as the default Web browser and my use of MPC-BE as my default media player. I'm looking forward to playing fallout 3 and skyrim again. I still have a ton of Win10 upgrades to do for the family and friends. But so far call me impressed with Windows 10. Much better than Win8 and of course any Linux distro.

Re:If you think Windows is bad

[ChunderDownunder]

Well the whole point of Boot To Gecko is to, well, boot to gecko. When everything is a HTML5 document running inside a web engine atop a Linux kernel, the concept of a 'Browser' is meaningless. There is an icon on Firefox OS called Browser but it launches as just another app.

With a chunk of work could swap out Gecko for Blink and more or less you'd have Chromium OS.

Re:If you think Windows is bad

[Anonymous Coward]

iOS is not Unix. Not even close. And no, neither is OS X. Apple may have taken code from the BSD's at first, but they've mangled it and relegated the unix userland into obscurity to the point that it is no longer Unix. It's pretty much as crappy as Windows is.

Re:If you think Windows is bad

[Anonymous Coward]

...which only helps to prove the point of the guy you were responding to. OS X did the same thing to FreeBSD. Commercial OS's tend to be crud regardless of how much open source code they've filched.

Re:If you think Windows is bad

[Anonymous Coward]

Chrome OS ain't mobile and windows no longer wields monopoly power. either bitch equally or don't bitch at all.

Re:If you think Windows is bad

[Panoptes]

"So supposably, for all intensive purposes, he meant "case in point", right? Here, here."

So supposedly, for all intents and purposes ... Hear hear.

Re: If you think Windows is bad

[Anonymous Coward]

God help you if you put the wrong brake fluid, then you got some solid that doesn't help you brake.

Re: If you think Windows is bad

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft claiming in antitrust that IE was a core part of the OS was no excuse for them. Time to return to fair and open competition. If google and apple can do it in their computing platforms so can Microsoft. Period. End of story.

Re: If you think Windows is bad

[tsqr]

Irregardless of you're opinion, it's a mute point.

Re: If you think Windows is bad

[Anonymous Coward]

And where is it written that the OS type dictates whether or not nagware, adware, or a Java security update is allowed to hijack my browsing experience? Fact- I can change my default. Fact- it will be no longer as easy for couponcrazy.net to fuck with my defaults. Firefox needs to find a new more honest way to compete.

Re: If you think Windows is bad

[Karlt1]

You don't get decide whether OS x is Unix. The Open Group decides what is and is not Unix. OS X is certified Unix.

Re: If you think Windows is bad

[Anonymous Coward]

Welcome to /. Where opt in is fuxking mandatory for companies we don't like but hidden opt out is ok for our friends

Re: If you think Windows is bad

[Anonymous Coward]

*woosh*

Re: If you think Windows is bad

[Karlt1]

Why would you distinguish between Desktop and Mobile? 99% of desktop functionality COULD be duplicated on mobile save a few things.

What could possibly go wrong if you tried to duplicate desktop functionality on a phone?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Mobile

Re:If you think Windows is bad

[jp10558]

I don't know - it seems to be less relevant every year. I can do lots of proprietary stuff on tablets (though I don't think Android is better, but it's a different thing than a PC in my use cases). Many Many things that used to be Windows only are now web based, or offered that way (I'm thinking TurboTax).

If you already use FLOSS on Windows, either because it's good, or it's free, the vast majority runs on whatever. For home uses, I've been able to use LibreOffice for a long time, and really never used MS Office. For business - I don't work in the normal place, but PDF and Wiki are used far more than Word. Social Networking / web based are also used for collaboration now, and it's not Sharepoint (Confluence, FOSWiki, Yammer). E-mail is MS. but Thunderbird works, OWA is actually pretty good in the latest refresh, and plenty of people use GMail. You don't really need Outlook, especially the vast majority of people(at my work) who don't do ANY calendaring.

Windows 10 privacy concerns and cloud logins have me actively trying to migrate to my offices latest Linux platform - Scientific Linux 7. I'm amazed the stuff I can do just fine, and about the same on SL7 as on Windows 7. Now, I'm not going to say this would work for everyone, or even most people, but it's more plausible every year to use other platforms than Windows. Part of it is choosing software.

Our chat is OpenFire XMPP. I run Pidgin on Windows. Runs the same on Linux.

E-mail is a sticking point, I'm trying out some exchange plugins for Thunderbird. I got Outlook 2010 to run, but it can't autodiscover Office 365 for some reason. That has been flaky for us under Windows however. OWA is surprisingly usable for me. And I know more people who use webmail than thick clients anyway.

  I use KeePass password manager. Runs on mono and is packaged very easily - and looks the same as on Windows.

I use AutoIT for scripting parts of Windows. That works in Crossover (Which I'm considering purchasing, but you could use the free Wine), and compiles the exe (and runs it too).

For AD we run Windows servers, but use terminal services for interacting with them. This works with rdesktop just fine on Linux. Most of our other tools are web based consoles now. Netwrix, can be web based. ESET AV, Webbased. Foreman/Puppet - web based. Inventory and ticketing, web based. Documentation is Wiki so web based.

Windows base image creation is VM based, and Virtual Box runs on Linux also.

Putty and X forwarding and MIT Kerberos 4 Windows tools are unnecessary on Linux, that's all built in. SVN works fine on Linux. Geppetto works fine on Linux.

I need to learn a new Desktop Environment, but that's true for Win10 also.

Java is actually easier with OpenJDK vs the horror that is Oracle's java 1.8 installers (for me).

The problem MS has IMHO is that Windows 7 can hang on like XP did. And plenty of people use less and less Windows software as everything is moving to "The Cloud" or web based. Smartphones have proven to people that they can do lots of things with different apps, and just because it isn't pixel by pixel Windows doesn't stop them from banking, documenting, picture editing, etc. Tablets have solidified that, and Microsoft is doing the last thing I think they ought to be doing with Windows - reminding people of use environments (like tablets and/or phones) that lets those people work WITHOUT WINDOWS.

And the tablet / smartphone / Apple ecosystem has forced more and more companies to stop being Windows only.

Finally, for gaming - Steam has more and more Linux titles. Isolated consoles also compete well - my PS4 isn't a privacy risk to me as it's limited and all I'm doing is playing games. My taxes isn't on there, and I'm not browsing the web on it. Mobile Gaming is also hugely popular. Windows 10 might eventually become a hybrid X Box sort of thing for some people, but AAA PC Gaming has been pretty dead for years already, and indie is Linux friendly.

TL;DR - I think Windows only software isn't needed nearly as much each year that goes by. PC Gaming has been pretty weak for a decade.

Re:If you think Windows is bad

[hackwrench]

But his statement is based on the fact that many software sellers don't have a version of their software for anything else but Windows. In the cell phone space you are more likely to find something you want done in both iOS and Android. There are also more apps you can use in Android than in iOS because you are not limited to the Google app store.

Re: If you think Windows is bad

[Anonymous Coward]

Last I knew, Windblows can't run OSX or UNIX software either. It's pathetic.

Re: If you think Windows is bad

[Anonymous Coward]

And yet the Open Group still argues that the term "unix-like" should not be used:

Refrain from hyphenating a Trademark:

        Correct Correct: I am TOGAF Certified
        IncorrectIncorrect: I am TOGAF-Certified
        Correct Correct: UNIX system-based
        IncorrectIncorrect: UNIX-based , UNIX-like

Re:If you think Windows is bad

[shutdown -p now]

This particular bit of policy has nothing to do with malware.

Re:If you think Windows is bad

[shutdown -p now]

He didn't renounce his French citizenship. And he doesn't actually live in Russia.

Re: If you think Windows is bad

[Anonymous Coward]

Windblow$, FIFY.

Carelessness line that will get you kicked out of the M$ h4t3rz tree fort club.

Re: If you think Windows is bad

[Lynchenstein]

It's a moo point. -JT

Re:If you think Windows is bad

[KGIII]

Nobody's assuming that a phone / tablet / netbook have unlimited control (though it is nice when given) ...

Like hell I am not. I expect full control of a tablet and a netbook. What is up with you people relinquishing control???

Re:If you think Windows is bad

[RespekMyAthorati]

Try iCabMobile.
It has support for all common extensions (adBlock, LastPass, 1Password, etc), is fast, and has every feature you can imagine. Even has applewatch support. Costs 2 bucks, but well worth it.

Re:If you think Windows is bad

[RespekMyAthorati]

So what?
It's what a browser does that matters, not what its based on.

Re:If you think Windows is bad

[Ol Olsoc]

Perhaps that's the deal Microsoft intends to offer to its customers with Windows 10. I don't believe either one is an acceptable approach. For sure, you can always say to the customer, let me control everything in exchange I will guarantee you a more secure platform. Even if it is not true, it is very unlikely next door guy will notice.

1. Install Firefox

2. Open Firefox 3. Select Firefox as your default browser.

This is one of the weirdest non-issues I've seen in about forever. Would it be better if say, Microsoft would make Vivaldi the default browser so you'd have to download Vivaldi because it doen't come with Windows 10?

Or have we become so stupid and lazy that it's too much trouble, or too confusing to check a check box that shows up the first time you open the program?

Re: If you think Windows is bad

[Ol Olsoc]

Irregardless of you're opinion, it's a mute point.

Mute? you insensitive clod! Think of the unfortunate who can't have aural sex.

Re: If you think Windows is bad

[Ol Olsoc]

It's a moo point. -JT

Careful, you're going to encourage that "cows say MOO!" guy.

Re:If you think Windows is bad

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you really honed in on that issue.

Re:If you think Windows is bad

[Anonymous Coward]

Make one for firefox and chrome OS and anyone can freely use it. It would be stupid though, because Chrome/Firefox OS are web based OS's. I don't think you know what you are saying.

Re:If you think Windows is bad

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean intents and purposes

Re: If you think Windows is bad

[Anonymous Coward]

No kidding, every new job people want to give me a Macbook pro because code runs on it just like it does on Unix vms in cloud land.

Re: If you think Windows is bad

[Anonymous Coward]

IE was a core part of the os. If you disabled/uninstalled it, stuff broke because of shared code. They didn't qa for that scenario.

I viewed IE as a built in tool for finding a better web browser. Without it, getting another browser would be difficult. You'd have to drive to the store and buy a box with a disk installer for Netscape. I don't understand what is so difficult about that concept, especially since it was a product devoid of ads. It would of course take a group of Europeans to think the reasonable way around this is to force one company to include another's company product with their software.

Re: If you think Windows is bad

[Anonymous Coward]

In the spirit of Rodney King, Can't we all just get along ?
Besides...geek infighting is so ugly.

Re:If you think Windows is bad

[Cinnamon Beige]

Try using a non-Safari-based browser in iOS

If these lusers cared about choice they wouldn't be using Windows or iOS. Doing something about that would require getting a clue, why it might even mean a little reading, and that's enough to stop most fat Americans from doing much of anything.

I know I am obviously feeding a troll (and you are some overseas elitist fuck), but most folks have a life and don't have time to sit in their mom's basement (like you) and figure out Linux and how to use SUDO and scripting and all the other hoops you have to jump thru to make Linux (or another other OS that only us geeks can use) usable. I have no problem with Linux and have used it quite often, but most 'fat americans' just want their computer to work and to allow them to do their tasks on a day to day basis.

When was the last time you updated your Linux system? I never did need to learn "scripting and all the other hoops you have to jump thru to make Linux (or another other OS that only us geeks can use) usable" in order to get my Linux box that was running a common distro to where I could leave it in my guestroom and let 'fat americans' who were visiting use a guest account so they could do those 'tasks on a day to day basis' quite cheerfully for all of us while visiting. I only needed SUDO for a few tasks, on a different Linux box that was running a rare distro, and I was able to work that one out in minutes via Google and a handy explanation of what SUDO is. (More importantly, if somebody can't figure out how to use SUDO in a few hours, I'm going to worry about them dressing themselves and getting sand out of their shoes.)

I should add that this was all back in the '00s, and I've been in a few all *nix computer labs which weren't expected to be used by computer geeks--heavy computer work, yes, but the best programs for what we were doing were all best run on *nix even if there was a Windows flavor out there.

The thing is? Those *nix machines were and are more reliable than any Windows boxes I've worked with so far. What you're talking about may have been necessary as recently as a decade ago, but now? It's easy to sit even somebody who isn't really good at computers down at a Linix box with a freshly installed OS and leave them happily working away, no handholding needed.

Re: If you think Windows is bad

[DEN_GUY]

I run Linux Mint 17.2 and Cinnamon crashes consantly. And yet, while my Windoze laptop provides a crappy experience, has never crashed. That being said, I still use Linux at home because once it gets stable enough, it's more in line with what I believe in. Freedom.

Re:If you think Windows is bad

[jwhitener]

I think it's the very goal of Microsoft to blur the line between "desktop" and "mobile".

I don't think we need to speculate about that at all. It is very clearly their intention to have a more unified experience between mobile and desktop. Like the new windows 10 start menu, if you click on the A,B,C,etc.. leader headers under 'all programs', it switches to the A-Z pad that you see in Windows phone when you swipe left.

Re:If you think Windows is bad

[rubycodez]

nope, you can install a complete unix userland for android, like Debian's for instance. If it takes commands like a unix, does the work of a unix...

Re: If you think Windows is bad

[rubycodez]

OpenBSD doesn't have the money or time to deal with corporate fascists who buy the laws and courts

Mozilla irrelevant

[Anonymous Coward]

Sod off and make a better browser that people will want to chose.

Re: Mozilla irrelevant

[Anonymous Coward]

Mozilla chose not to continue building their browser for Metri/WinRT. I would love to have Firefox as a choice only Win 8 tablet.

So it's Mozilla's fault for there being no choice.

Re: Mozilla irrelevant

[slashdot_commentator]

Thank God, as incompetent as Mozilla's management appears, they're still not that stupid.

Not a monopoly anymore.

[Anonymous Coward]

Fortunately, Nadella can tell him to sod off since MS hasn't had a browser or OS monopoly in ages.

Re:Not a monopoly anymore.

[Mike Buddha]

Yep. I can't remember the last time I chose to use Internet Explorer. I tried Project Spartan and it was all right, but on windows 10 I'm using Chrome. Works fine. Mozilla has blown for many, many years. And Chrome is starting to make the same mistakes.

And the OS I use those most? Android.

Re:Not a monopoly anymore.

[lgw]

The Chrome UI has annoted me from the start, and I trust Google about as far as I can throw their corporate HQ, but Chrome still has some neat tech.

Anyone know? Is there a chromium fork with a different UI, as Pale Moon is to FF?

Re:Not a monopoly anymore.

[Blaskowicz]

I know a guy with a Vista laptop (2GB RAM) and IE on it. I'm always amazed that's it's all up to date every time I check (Windows updates, antivirus)
That must be IE9, and it seems a good enough browser. Well, using IE minimizes the amount of updating and Windows would still download and install IE security patches anyway.
As far a random user PC go, this PC is a very good idiot box. I know enough to leave the fuck of it alone.

Re:Not a monopoly anymore.

[Blaskowicz]

Opera?

Re:Not a monopoly anymore.

[ConceptJunkie]

Yep. I can't remember the last time I chose to use Internet Explorer.

Well, you need something to download a browser on a clean install of Windows. Is it possible to do that with PowerShell?

Re:Not a monopoly anymore.

[Darinbob]

Their OS is still effectively a monopoly in the desktop market. And on that OS you have to make a positive action in order to use some browser other than Microsoft's preferred choice, and since most people will never bother or even know there's a difference, that leaves their own browser with an unfair market advantage based upon their OS monopoly.

And besides, Microsoft has NEVER cared about user choice. Each Windows release removes more and more options and customization capabilities. Thus complaining about users not having a choice is like tilting at windmills. Microsoft doesn't care what Mozilla thinks, they didn't make an inadvertent mistake here by changing the user's preferences during installation, they did this change on purpose.

Re:Not a monopoly anymore.

[lazarusdishwasher]

Yes, A quick Google search gave me a PowerShell script that will install a specified version of Firefox and allow you to specify the language also. Mozilla has a latest folder on the ftp server if you want to modify the script.

I would probably just use ftp from a command line if I was trying to download Firefox without using the native web browser for some reason.

ftp://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/fire...

http://blog.vertigion.com/post...

Re:Not a monopoly anymore.

[laurencetux]

well intelligent lifeforms will have https://ninite.com/chrome-fire... on a flashdrive ready to go (heck having a Ninite Pro sub will save a lot of headaches)

Re:Not a monopoly anymore.

[Antique Geekmeister]

Oddly, the last time I _chose_ to use Firefox was several years ago. I occassionally choose to use Intenet Explorer to get MS updates, and to work with corporate sites that insist on "Microsoft only" features. But I discarded Firefox in favor of Chrome some time ago, simply for the better performance and compatibility with more websites.

IE all over again

[gstoddart]

So basically they're doing the same thing with Windows 10 as they did originally with IE? Making it part of the OS and claiming it can't be removed?

Sorry, Microsoft ... but everything I hear about Windows 10 is making me say "fuck you, I'll stick with my Windows 8.1".

When will Microsoft realize we own the computers, we are ultimately the ones who make decisions about the computers, and they simply can't dictate to us what software is on our computers and how we use it.

And, like every other Microsoft product, I'm sure this new hotness is riddled with security holes an defects for their users to have to deal with.

But don't worry, because they'll update the OS as they see fit, and if they break it, that's your problem ... says it right there in the EULA.

Keep alienating your customers, see how that works out for you. You might even find the DoJ knocking at your door if they ever grow a pair and stop doing whatever industry demands of them.

Re:IE all over again

[squiggleslash]

I don't think anything's changed about the degree to which IE or NewIE is part of the OS since Windows 7. What's changed is that browsers can't set themselves to be the default any more - the user has to do it explicitly in the system settings.

Personally, I thought the Windows 8.1 way of doing it was better. But I don't think this is as terrible a change as being suggested.

Re:IE all over again

[Anonymous Coward]

"fuck you, I'll stick with my Windows 8.1". ----- giahwaaaht?

I like MS but not their new stuff? I brain froze on the rest of what you had to say...

Re:IE all over again

[Anonymous Coward]

Isn't that what Google and Apple do? I suggest you try it before forming an opinion.

Re:IE all over again

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry, Microsoft ... but everything I hear about Windows 10 is making me say "fuck you, I'll stick with my Windows 8.1".

That should be "I'll stick with my Windows 7", just like "I'll stick with my Windows XP".

Saying, "I'll stick with my Windows 8.1" is like saying, "I'll stick with my Windows Vista".

Re:IE all over again

[Anonymous Coward]

You could grow a pair yourself and stop using Windows.

Re:IE all over again

[Anonymous Coward]

So basically they're doing the same thing with Windows 10 as they did originally with IE?

No, basically Mozilla is bitching that Windows 10 has default settings, and people might not change it to the ones they want.

When will Microsoft realize we own the computers, we are ultimately the ones who make decisions about the computers, and they simply can't dictate to us what software is on our computers and how we use it.

Nothing is stopping you from setting any browser you want as a default, or installing any legitimate software you want. Hopefully something is stopping illegitimate software from being installed without your permission though.

You might even find the DoJ knocking at your door if they ever grow a pair and stop doing whatever industry demands of them.

If the DOJ is going to go after criminals in industry, there are a lot better choices than this phantom hysterical one.

Re:IE all over again

[Latentius]

Microsoft's obligations in the US case ended in 2007, and they were willing to extend the terms of their settlement until 2012. They're not legally required to do anything anymore. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

Re:IE all over again

[Penguinisto]

With a little luck, maybe folks will realize this take matters into their own hands?

Re:IE all over again

[QuietLagoon]

...Keep alienating your customers, see how that works out for you....

A good case study in that area might be Mozilla and Firefox.

Re:IE all over again

[squiggleslash]

I don't think so, browsers have always, until now, been able to set themselves as default, even back during the Netscape wars.

And they're not asserting ownership of your computer. What they've done is created a hamfisted (and biased towards Microsoft - yeah, I don't like it either) interface that replaces third parties modifying your computer with or without your consent. They had a better system in Windows 8.1, and should revert to that, but nonetheless, I don't actually like the idea of a browser being able to set itself up as default. I prefer myself to make that decision. Fortunately, the mainstream browsers have, until now, always at least asked for permission before changing the defaults, but that's not something they should have been allowed to do to begin with.

If we want this changed, we need to be a little less hyperbolic, because the issue here is that the new change isn't user friendly and is biased towards Microsoft, not ludicrous claims that Microsoft is taking control of your PC in some way it wasn't before. If you complain about the latter, expect your ticket to be closed with a "INVALID. Not actually a description of a real problem."

Re:IE all over again

[MightyMartian]

When I upgraded to Windows 10 yesterday, there was a screen that came up that asked me if I wanted to reset the default apps. I said no for my browser and media player, and when it completed, Chrome and VLC were still the default applications. I think it's a little underhanded, but not as underhanded as the article suggests.

Re:IE all over again

[Anonymous Coward]

>> So basically they're doing the same thing with Windows 10 as they did originally with IE?

> No, basically Mozilla is bitching that Windows 10 has default settings, and people might not change it to the ones they want.

No, Mozilla is complaining that if you have already changed your defaults, when you upgrade to Windows 10, it changes those defaults back.

Re:IE all over again

[Anonymous Coward]

We are the product.

Re:IE all over again

[Anonymous Coward]

When will Microsoft realize we own the computers, we are ultimately the ones who make decisions about the computers, and they simply can't dictate to us what software is on our computers and how we use it.

When the average user gets a clue. Until then, the imbalance of know-how is an imbalance of market power. How can average users refuse to go along with something when they have no idea how it works? They would have no basis from which to question it.

Power has always worked like this and is in no way limited to computing or markets. It's why the worst tyrants relied on some kind of priesthood by which knowledge was hoarded. It's why scientific inquiry was such a great way to wind up tortured or executed during the Dark Ages. The sad thing about our present age: instead of all of this being enforced by the sword, it's enforced by the average person's aversion to learning new things. Never has information been so readily available at so little cost.

Fix that, and corporations like Microsoft (which is just one example) become our humble servants. Continue the status quo and they remain the masters of so many.

Re:IE all over again

[Anonymous Psychopath]

Launching another browser presents the usual "do you want me to be default" dialog. It's completely trivial to change your browser preference. Yes, I would have preferred if Microsoft had left my browser preferences alone with the upgrade, but this is blown a bit out of proportion.

It's also a bit disingenuous to compare today's situation to the Internet Explorer case that's literally 20 years old. I find it improbable to believe that anyone using Windows 10 is unaware of alternative browsers availability.

Re:IE all over again

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you really want to bring a moron and an asshat like gstootard into any thing else? I like my non-MS like (outside of work, of course) and I'd rather not have people like him polluting my technological environments.

Re:IE all over again

[Chris Mattern]

When will Microsoft realize we own the computers, we are ultimately the ones who make decisions about the computers, and they simply can't dictate to us what software is on our computers and how we use it.

Not while they can dictate to us (and they can, except for the exceptionally knowledgable) and make money doing it.

Re:IE all over again

[Anonymous Coward]

>Sorry, Microsoft ... but everything I hear about Windows 10 is making me say "fuck you, I'll stick with my Windows 8.1".

I believe I've heard this sentiment before. Once every few years since Windows 95.

Re:IE all over again

[Anonymous Coward]

You can pick if you want them reset or not.

I can see how Mozilla would prefer it not to be changed, but on the other hand, I don't blame Microsoft for deciding to make the user choose to keep something different, that way they can plan for the normal course, while those who want to change something can affirmatively do so.

Re:IE all over again

[Z00L00K]

However I have seen that Microsoft do some strange stuff in some cases when downloading files using the browser from another application. Only way to make it work is to set IE as default browser. I have seen this when using Visual Studio trying to download an update to Visual Studio won't work until browser is set as IE default.

Re:IE all over again

[Anonymous Coward]

No it's not. Try to get out of the Slashderp bubble, it has you very confused. 8 is far superior to 7 once you install Classic Shell.

Re: IE all over again

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem is that too much shitware was changing the browser defaults out from under users. You'd install some piece of crapware and they'd hide a checkbox telling you it was bundled with Chrome or Mozilla or whatever and you'd end up with a new browser you didn't want.

So to stop that, now only the user can change the default browser. Mozilla shouldn't be blaming Microsoft for improving the user experience, they should be blaming the assholes they allowed to bundle Mozilla for money.

Re:IE all over again

[Shakrai]

When I upgraded to Windows 10 yesterday, there was a screen that came up that asked me if I wanted to reset the default apps. I said no for my browser and media player, and when it completed, Chrome and VLC were still the default applications. I think it's a little underhanded, but not as underhanded as the article suggests.

Mozilla is whining anyway; when they switched search providers from Google to Yahoo I had to go through and specify it on EVERY INSTANCE of Firefox I have. Since I use --no-remote and segment my web browsing this was actually a royal pain in the ass. Granted, Google was the old "default," so I had never changed it, but it was still an undesired change in behavior. If they're going to whine about Microsoft doing the same thing then they ought to look at their own behavior.

Firefox is still my browser of choice for personal use but for others I've started to recommend Chrome. It's just less hassle to support it for your luser friends. The future of Firefox and Mozilla is not an encouraging one, which is a pity.

Re:IE all over again

[Anonymous Coward]

Funny... I didn't get that and everything was changed to the MS defaults.

And the normal in-application settings to take the associations back (E.g. In VLC take all Audio/video formats, or in IrfanView: Take all images) are now a non-op.
Unless you do it via the MS settings panel.
And that is partially broken as well.
For some reason: assign all TV/Movie to VLC leaves WMV still tied to the MS-player ???
I had to do that manually via the other panel where you can set it for each extension explicitly. (Which goes at snails-pace because it insists on fetching the icons for each of the 2000+ extensions and does that again an again for each scroll through that 500 page list. Seriously... Never heard of reading it once and caching it ?)

Re:IE all over again

[chmod a x mojo]

Nope.

Apparently it's too hard for a CEO to parse the upgrade page where it asks "Do you want to use the windows defaults or your old defaults for opening programs?". I wasn't paying the most attention to the part after, but I vaguely recall maybe even a mini tutorial on rightclick > open with > set as default from the list after clicking OK from the keep my default settings page.

Not saying there is nothing wrong with Windows 10, the start menu for instance is NOT worth a shit.... it is just a list in alphabetical order of programs with no sane grouping. Thankfully classic shell has a build that works with 10. Other than the one 8.1 laptop I upgraded I think I will keep my win7 machines for a while.

Re:IE all over again

[CastrTroy]

I actually really like the way they implemented it in Window 10. As far as I can tell, It's no longer possible for the browser to change the default browser for you. They can bring up the screen to change the option, but the user has to change the option themselves. This is much better than the old functionality where applications would constantly be setting themselves as the default application either with no warning or with a simple yes/no dialog. Making it take more clicks is a good thing.

Re:IE all over again

[Anonymous Coward]

Well what happens is that if you check use firefox as myd efault browser a window pops up to let you set the default applications. You simply pick firefox as your default browser. The functionality is there, and immediately shown to you... It's just not done by the browser.

Re:IE all over again

[Anonymous Coward]

Since you're already using Windows8.1, it's fair to say they've already pulled a fast one on you. You'll be on Win10 in a few months, irrelevant of what Microsoft does... and then you'll cling to Win10 when Win11 comes out.

Re:IE all over again

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry, you are the fuckwit. So, would you be happy if it replaced other software defaults just for the shit and giggles because you selected "express".

Where a default has already been chosen, it should honour them. This is the UPGRADE option.

Do you want me to spell it out for you further?

Re:IE all over again

[The-Ixian]

Yeah, I agree. I think this issue is a little overrated.

When I installed FF on Windows 10, it was slightly more difficult to make it my default browser, in that I had to click maybe 3 times instead of only 1 or 2 times as I would have on Windows 7.

The way it looks to me, MS is trying to make it harder for hijackers to silently take your defaults.

Re:IE all over again

[Anonymous Coward]

IE has been baked into the os for many many versions, the UK being the exception after the anti-trust suit forced them to give you a choice during the install.

This is not new, and I'm fairly confident you had no choice over IE being installed on 8.1 just like you don't on windows 10. In fact, I'm not entirely sure you can even remove it or block it from being installed even if you do a deployment with customization and an answer file.

The issue here, if you bothered to actually read it, is that it's not keeping your choices during the upgrade without a bunch of hoops, unlike the traditional upgrade path.

So...
XP= can't unbundle IE
vista= can't unbundle IE
win7= can't unbundle IE
win8= can't unbundle IE

and you are surprised and angry that this flows into windows 10? You can install any browser you want and set it as your default, just like always. This is 100% a non-issue.

If you are that butthurt over it, I can script the registry key for you so you can have a 1 click "default browser" button on your desktop.

Re:IE all over again

[Flavianoep]

Does people still think of choosing Linux because of the annoyances from Windows? I mean, many people prefer Linux --- and I only use Windows when I am forced to ---, but I think any Linux user must have their own reasons for that, which must be beyond avoiding Windows' handicaps.

Re:IE all over again

[Penguinisto]

Funny thing - my wife is using a laptop w/ Linux Mint (when she isn't using an iPad) because she took one look at Windows 8 and hated it... so it's not like there isn't any precedent.

Re:IE all over again

[MightyMartian]

Whatever MS's justification, they do actually ask you if you want to change your current apps for certain functions during the final stage of the upgrade phase. What I don't like is that it is essentially an "opt-out" rather than an "opt-in".

Re:IE all over again

[Anonymous Coward]

Calm down mofo

Re:IE all over again

[tlhIngan]

Wasn't the ability for other browsers to set themselves as the default browser part of the DoJ settlement? So now Microsoft is deciding that doesn't apply?

Sorry, but Microsoft has gone well into the "we can do anything we want to your computer, any time we want, and unless you have an enterprise license you can't stop us".

That is complete bullshit. If they're going to assert ownership of my computer, they can help me pay for it. Until they do, it's my computer.

Here's the problem - Firefox/Chrome/etc ask you if you want them to be the default browser. The ability for the program to set the preference is the problem.

If you don't see the problem, let me rephrase it. I create SuperWebBrowser. I think it's so super, I will make it the default browser on everyone's machine. So I do that. Why should I ask the user? It's so super they'll want it.

If you still don't get it, then how about, I create WebBrowserSpy and set it as default. It launches an instance of your normal web browser but hooked so it can spy at your traffic and even get at HTTPS data after it's been decrypted.

Just because the good guys ask, doesn't mean everyone else has to. In fact, if you're particularly nasty, if that setting is changed, you can always reset it back.

And you'll be surprised, but both scenarios are common - many management types can't understand that people might just want to use your software as necessary, and they don't need or want it to be the default shell, the default web browser, to pin itself to the task bar and start menu and all sorts of other things. After all, after buying a copy of SuperApplication, why wouldn't you want it in your face everywhere you look? I mean, it's a great application.

It's why Microsoft doesn't provide APIs to pin applications to the task bar, start menu and a few other things. Heck, I'm surprised no installer decides to go change your desktop wallpaper on you after you install an app. After all, it's super, and you'll not want to live without it...

Re:IE all over again

[Anonymous Coward]

Mozilla and Firefox are not required to run mainstream software. Windows is. No other OS can compete at this time, and Microsoft knows this. It makes them cocky.

Re:IE all over again

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually no. In terms of functionality, Ubuntu provides much the same interface or user experience as Windows 7. However, many people, including my wife, prefer not to be annoyed by constant pop-ups, confusing system settings dialogs, virus, spyware and malware. I believe many now choose Linux (Ubuntu or Mint) due to the more Zen experience, and that it now works with more hardware than Windows.

This is not to say there's a clear winner here. Linux is after all a niche OS, at least in the desktop area. But it's a good choice given that there are so many bad ones being pushed as "pay to play" solutions.

Did I mention Netflix works in Linux Chrome / Chromium and Steam + more and more games now works in Linux too?

Re:IE all over again

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes.

When Microsoft released Windows 8 it was obvious that they no longer wanted me as a customer. So bye ! I moved to LinuxMint and I am happy that I did.

Re:IE all over again

[raftpeople]

Ya, once you revert 8 back to working just like 7, it's much better than 7, in fact it's one better.

Re:IE all over again

[Anonymous Coward]

You are so naive.... You think you OWN any software or hardware and can do whatever you want? Microsoft is the most lenient of the bunch. Try jail-breaking your iPhone and see how quick your carrier shut your service off. Ever try installing Apple O/S on non-Apple hardware, it replies "fuck you, this ain't Apple shit, screw you all!" Read every EULA out there, they all say this software belongs to corporate, this hardware belongs to corporate, do as we say or we'll sue. You are a renter of technology and it can be taken away at any time. Enjoy your lease, it expires about every 2 years.

Re:IE all over again

[Anonymous Coward]

Lemme FTFY, 8 is far superior to 7 once you install Linux Mint.

Re:IE all over again

[Anonymous Coward]

That headline is very misleading.

Re:IE all over again

[lgw]

I'm pretty sure this was arrogance, but not malice, on MS's part: they really want to shift the IE userbase to Edge and drop IE support in some future release. Can you blame them? But in their arrogance they didn't remember (or didn't care) that quite a large portion of Windows users don't run IE in the first place.

Re:IE all over again

[Anonymous Coward]

Until you actually install and use windows 10, which by this comment alone proves that you haven't, just stop talking. All the things you're complaining about are easily disabled during initial setup. It's like you can't fucking read or something.

Re:IE all over again

[Anonymous Coward]

So don't use THEIR software on it.

Re: IE all over again

[Anonymous Coward]

You are one whiny cunt. Boo fucking hoooo.

Re:IE all over again

[Anonymous Coward]

Personally, I welcome a change where chrome stops making itself my default browser everytime it updates itself.

Re:IE all over again

[avandesande]

Every browser install is set up this way, at least from what I have seen.

Re:IE all over again

[Anonymous Coward]

With a little luck, maybe folks will realize this take matters into their own hands?

Given the way people completely freaked out the Windows 8 UI, the hope that people will ever switch to Linux en masse and the even worse UX options is just laughable at this point.

CAPTCHA: atheism, which is quite appropriate. I use all three of the major desktop OSes and you know what? They *all* suck.

Re:IE all over again

[dimeglio]

You're not alone buddy. Linux Mint has been my desktop OS since version 16. I wish Microsoft was more interested in being the good guy instead of the bully.

Re: IE all over again

[cyberchondriac]

The problem is that too much shitware was changing the browser defaults out from under users. You'd install some piece of crapware and they'd hide a checkbox telling you it was bundled with Chrome or Mozilla or whatever and you'd end up with a new browser you didn't want.

So to stop that, now only the user can change the default browser. Mozilla shouldn't be blaming Microsoft for improving the user experience, they should be blaming the assholes they allowed to bundle Mozilla for money.

While that in itself may be commendable (I've fixed hijacked computers before, it's a pain) that still doesn't excuse MS for changing the already set preferences of the user during the upgrade. It should very simple for the upgrade to leave that registry key essentially untouched, or export/import it as needed.

Re:IE all over again

[EvilSS]

I agree that this is a good change for users. And when you go to change the setting from a 3rd party browser, it even pops up a message telling you where to go to make the change (it should just pop up the default programs applet but still).

My personal issue with all this is that when you upgrade a machine to Windows 10, it resets the default browser to Microsoft Edge instead of migrating the existing setting from the old OS. It migrates tons of other settings, so there is no technical reason they could not do this too. At least it does if you chose the express install (haven't tried it out with custom yet, just playing with some VMs at the moment). Express is what 99% of people will choose of course, and they know that.

Re:IE all over again

[meerling]

Lets see... Your other browsers are STILL THERE, and if you open one of them, it will ask you if you want to make it your default browser.
Real freaking difficult.
On the other hand, it's not MSs responsibility to ensure that old versions of other peoples software is compliant with their new OS, so yes, it makes sense to have upgrades change the default to one they know will work. That way the users that prefer the other browsers can use the default one to download a new version of the one they prefer, even if their old version of it doesn't freaking work properly in the new OS.

There is nothing stopping you from easily changing the default, and there are reasons why an OS upgrade shouldn't leave the pre-upgrade default on an unverified 3rd party software. Don't like it, then welcome to the reality of having to cater to millions of virtual computer illiterates that will panic and freak if the slightest thing goes wrong. You are just a footnote of annoyance vs a possible flood of pissed off users.

I can complain about MS as much or more than virtually anyone that's sane, but look at the big picture rather than your own little reflection. If you want to complain, make it about something that is unreasonable, or just plain broken or F'd up. (There's lots of that out there. I'll give you one hint, don't do the express install, use the other one where you can pick what some of the defaults will be, you'll be shocked.)

Re:IE all over again

[Sir_Eptishous]

I've been using Mint for about a year now and it kicks ass. Much easier interface than either iOS or Windows. Easier install of "apps", etc;

I've tried a lot of Linux Desktops and Mint is the winner.
I've been paranoid lately that they are going to screw it up somehow...

Re:IE all over again

[Anonymous Coward]

Whatever MS's justification, they do actually ask you if you want to change your current apps for certain functions during the final stage of the upgrade phase. What I don't like is that it is essentially an "opt-out" rather than an "opt-in".

I don't consider that opt out or opt in. Since that review is part of the upgrade process you are being asked to review the settings as correct and either accept them or change them. Yes, they could just copy the current settings, but don't you think it's rather nice that they verify that they have everything correct before they apply them and release the system to you?

It wouldn't matter if they copied the current settings, they should still provide the review so you can check. At that point it is just semantics on what those settings are initially set to. The fact that they are providing the review is a good thing. That is a nice new function and follows best practice for any upgrade situation. It saved me having to go look for those settings myself after the upgrade was complete.

Re:IE all over again

[Anonymous Coward]

If I select express, and it says it will change the defaults, why would anybody be unhappy with what they knowingly chose?

Choose to check, and it won't do it.

Re:IE all over again

[alexgieg]

When you download Chrome, it has a check box (yes, in the download page), checked by default, by means of which you select whether you want your Chrome download to become your default browser when installed. Guess what? You didn't uncheck it when you downloaded Chrome. Whenever I download Chrome I uncheck it. And my Chrome never makes itself the default browser by merely updating itself. My default is and continues being Firefox.

Now, there's probably an option somewhere to disable the behavior you describe. If this bothers you, maybe googling it would be a good idea?

Re:IE all over again

[tepples]

Perhaps the complaint is that "express" means "all Microsoft", not "keep existing settings".

Re:IE all over again

[alexgieg]

Actually, yes, 8.x is better. It's noticeably faster than 7, and it allows one to use those few actually useful Metro apps (yes, there are a few ones). Fixing the annoyance of the lack of a Start menu is a matter of installing a small application, of which there are several choices available. In return, you get an OS that does everything else much better than 7 did.

I wouldn't go back to 7's slowness even if someone paid me to do it. Rather, I much prefer to pay $5 for Start8 (which I like more than Classic Shell) and get all of 8's benefits. Similarly, once I upgrade to Windows 10, if I don't like its new Start menu, I'll be upgrading to Start10 too. There's absolutely no benefit in sticking with 7 other that that one rare application you absolutely depend on that doesn't work in 8+. If you have one of those, well, keep 7. Otherwise, move up. There's no downside.

Re:IE all over again

[alexgieg]

I'm sure all those happy Baidu Browser users agree. Their free choice of Chinese governmnet backed spyware should be respected.

Myself, I'll simply change the setting when installing Win10, or set Firefox back as the default afterwards.

Re:IE all over again

[sabbede]

Sorry, Microsoft ... but everything I hear about Windows 10 is making me say "fuck you, I'll stick with my Windows 8.1".

Stop listening to those sources. They're wrong. The most annoying things about 10 were already in 8/8.1, and everything else is better.

Re:IE all over again

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, the non-conspiracy-theory view of this is that Microsoft is moving towards a more sand-boxed and multi-platform operating system, since they're using the same OS on tablets and eventually phones as well. For both security and usability reasons, programs can't change your defaults, only you can do it, through a standard operating system method. Exactly like on Android and (I presume) iOS.

It just so happens that in this case, it also works in their favor, so it's not like they'll be in any hurry to offer an alternative unless forced.

Re:IE all over again

[myowntrueself]

When will Microsoft realize we own the computers, we are ultimately the ones who make decisions about the computers

Did you never wonder who the 'My' in 'My Computer' is referring?

Heres a hint; its not you.

Heres another hint; it originally meant "My, Bill Gates's, Computer

Re:IE all over again

[MightyMartian]

I consider it an opt-out, because if you just click Next, your previous settings are changed.

Re:IE all over again

[david_thornley]

Which is pretty much equivalent to serving out their term of probation. It doesn't mean that, if they do the same old thing, they're not going to face the same sort of lawsuit.

Re:IE all over again

[david_thornley]

For somebody who just uses their computer for email, web surfing, and Facebook, I'd recommend Mint or some other easy-to-use Linux distro. For somebody who has particular requirements, and they work on Linux, I'd recommend Linux (I use Ubuntu for those purposes).

There's a lot of people between those two populations, people who have computers so they can run Windows-compatible software that does not have complete replacements on other operating systems. Perhaps they need Microsoft Office (LibreOffice, for all of its virtues, is not an acceptable substitute in many business-related cases), or want to play certain games, or want to use iTunes, or need to use a particular CAD program, or.... They're not moving to Linux, probably not to Mac OSX, and no amount of preaching is going to change that. I think you'll find that most people fall into this category.

Re:IE all over again

[david_thornley]

98% of the complaints I've seen about Windows 8 are about the user interface. If Microsoft had had an option "make it look and act like Windows 7", it would have been a winner.

Re:IE all over again

[david_thornley]

With the exception of Vista and 8, I've liked each new OS as much or better than the last one I tried, although I slightly prefer XP's UI to 7's. (I missed ME, if you're wondering.) Seriously, the old desktop interface was very usable and wasn't ugly, unlike what Microsoft's been doing since. (Have you looked at newer versions of Office and Visual Studio, with the ALL-CAPS MENU NAMES and ugly color schemes?)

Re:IE all over again

[ConceptJunkie]

I've been living with Windows 8 because I can work around most of the stupidities, but when I bought my wife a new laptop with 8, she hated it so much she traded it to one of the kids for their Windows 7 machine.

If I could ask for one thing in Windows 10, it would be the ability to make the desktop look like Windows 2000. That's the last version of Windows I thought actually looked good (although 7 wasn't bad). But with this stupid cult of "flat" you can't even do that any more. That was one of Microsoft's stupider and more arrogant moves in the UI field, because you could easily write a book out of all the many reasons why the "flat" look is inferior. The flat look is like reverting back to Windows 2, although at least with Windows 2, the color palette was so small stuff didn't all run together.

Re:IE all over again

[ConceptJunkie]

Well, not to defend Microsoft, but this behavior is probably the most effective way to get the kinds of people who need to be kicked off of IE to actually be kicked off of IE. You know, the users who probably wouldn't even notice that Edge isn't IE in the first place.

The rest of us can take care of ourselves.

Out of all the stupid, evil or self-centered things Microsoft does, this one's frankly pretty low on my list.

Re:IE all over again

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, well mine is better than that. In fact I understand that Windows 10 is at least 11 better than Windows 7, and it's Vista better than XP! Or something. Yay marketing!

Re:IE all over again

[Anonymous Coward]

"Express install" isn't exactly the best way to word the option to "reset my default browser to something that never existed before."

Re:IE all over again

[thegarbz]

When I upgraded to Windows 10 yesterday, there was a screen that came up that asked me if I wanted to reset the default apps. I said no for my browser

Very much this. Users who upgrade to Windows 10 get to *choose* whether to set Edge as the default browser. Choice. You know that thing that MS was forced to do in Europe, provide users choice. This sounds like desperate moaning from a CEO who doesn't understand why users are fleeing his bloated Chrome clone.

Re:IE all over again

[ChunderDownunder]

Except that there's historical precedent with the European Union.

[I'm typing this on Firefox in Windows 10 Home!]

They should tread lightly as far as regulation. Another thing that I'm sure will cause authorities to froth at the mouth is the wifi sharing. ISP lobbyists mightn't like customers sharing. Of course the 3 letter agencies might actually enjoy it - catch one bad guy and you can track down all his friends via 7-degrees-of-BinLaden.

Re:IE all over again

[ChunderDownunder]

'My Computer' doesn't exist on Windows 10.

'This PC' has replaced it. Presumably if you buy a phone, explorer shows 'This Phone' or similar.

Re:IE all over again

[WndSks]

Programs cannot really set themselves as the default anymore, this change was made in Windows 8 IIRC. They can trigger the change default app dialog but messing with the registry directly does not work. The default verb for a type is now stored along with some crypto goo in the registry that only the shell knows and ShellExecute checks this...

Re:IE all over again

[myowntrueself]

'My Computer' doesn't exist on Windows 10.

'This PC' has replaced it. Presumably if you buy a phone, explorer shows 'This Phone' or similar.

Wow thats just great, so Microsoft are no longer claiming ownership of my computer! Oh... wait...

Re: IE all over again

[Anonymous Coward]

It has not been MY anything in eight years. If you did not notice this in Vista them the terrorists have won.

Re: IE all over again

[ChunderDownunder]

Sorry, I usually use debian and the only Windows PCs I have in the house are still running XP.

I did however buy a used Win 7 laptop this week for mobility, which now has 10 on it, which I'll upgrade to Linux soon enough!

Re:IE all over again

[shutdown -p now]

That's how it used to work in Win8. Now, though, it'll just pop up a dialog telling you that you need to open Settings, and where you need to go there, to change defaults. It doesn't automatically open it for you anymore.

Re:IE all over again

[Anonymous Coward]

"Express" means "what we think is best for you". Well, duh.

Re:IE all over again

[Anonymous Coward]

I loved DOS with Desqview to run multi node BBSes and mod them.
I thought 3.11 was ok, but didn't multitask as well as Desqview. Word / Excel got it done in college.
I liked Windows 95, as long as I could run it in DOS like Win 3.11. I hated when they removed DOS boot as an option.
I liked WinNT 3.5/4.0 to learn the Microsoft version of networking and all. It helped get the first job.
Win 98 was just Win 95 with some graphics changes for the most part.
Windows 2K was awesome, because it was the NT kernel that would also play games!
I didn't get much experience with ME, though I heard (and still hear) horror stories about it.
XP was hated for phoning home with activation. HATED. The Fischer Price UI was lame. People got used to both though and it ended up being a great release.
Vista's UI was very cool, but driver and backwards compatibility was really annoying at first. It got better, but not as good as XP.
Windows 7 was amazing and a good part of that reason was because Vista was not
Windows 8 was a cluster. Windows 8.1 was much, much better.
Windows 10 is nice so far. I took the plunge and upgraded my VMs and reinstalled my main windows box. Few bugs here and there, nothing show stopping (except the .NET 4.6 compiler bug).

Re: IE all over again

[Anonymous Coward]

No, It /asks/ you if you want to change the defaults and offers some suggestions that you don't have to accept

Re:IE all over again

[Anonymous Coward]

Whindows is good!

Re:IE all over again

[Anonymous Coward]

Chrome is not a good choice anymore, because it won't support Java anymore. So what happens when they eventually want to use some Java applet?

Re:IE all over again

[Cinnamon Beige]

98% of the complaints I've seen about Windows 8 are about the user interface. If Microsoft had had an option "make it look and act like Windows 7", it would have been a winner.

It says something important about Microsoft that they didn't shove that out the door fast back when Win8 was new: they will not listen to complaints (except to possibly respond in a placating, condescending manner) until it is made painfully clear to them that doing so is costing them significant market share. They expect users to adapt and come to love whatever the design crew sold them on--never mind if it doesn't work and/or looks like a bad clone of a different OS whose users won't be lured into using Windows by that.

Re:IE all over again

[Anonymous Coward]

I just upgraded to windows 10 last night. When I opened chrome it told me that it was not the default browser and gave me a button to click and change the setting. That button opened up the default programs app and all I had to do was click on web browser. Windows knew which program was asking permission, accepted my input and changed it.

Maybe I am not understanding the issue? Seems setting the default is pretty easy for anyone who is savvy enough to want to.

It may be the idea....

[Anonymous Coward]

... to give away a free new version of Windows that forces users into their own browser and apps, again.

Re:It may be the idea....

[Anonymous Coward]

They're not forcing you into anything. All this does is reset the default browser to IE (or whatever-the-fuck they're calling it these days). It takes about 10 seconds to change it back to Firefox or Chrome or whatever.

Re: It may be the idea....

[Anonymous Coward]

I believe it's new name is Microsoft Edgeploder rather than Internet Exploder

Re:It may be the idea....

[Kkloe]

hmm, I upgraded to w10, still firefox is my browser

Re:It may be the idea....

[0123456]

... to give away a free new version of Windows that forces users into their own browser and apps, again.

Yeah, but no-one can be forced to use Windows any more. There are far too many alternatives.

Re:It may be the idea....

[Kkloe]

ahh my fault it did

Re:It may be the idea....

[david_thornley]

Yeah, right. Where can I get a non-Windows machine that runs Microsoft Office, SolidWorks, Outlook and Visual Studio, not to mention our internally developed CAD system based on C++ with MFC? That's my minimum requirements for work around here. (There are actually other requirements, but I can satisfy them on any desktop OS. I need a decent editor, but you can easily get vim and emacs on Linux, Mac OSX, and Windows.)

Re:It may be the idea....

[Gizzmonic]

Well shit, did you even need to mention your internally-developed CAD system? I mean, that's such a vital part of everyone's software needs, I thought it went without saying.

Re:It may be the idea....

[david_thornley]

Not a real common problem, true, but lots of people have odd requirements like that. Most people would have real problems leaving Windows. Not all, but most.

Mehzilla

[Anonymous Coward]

As log as it's easy remove all traces of Firefox and install Chrome, who cares? If Firefox follows Windows software standards and guidelines, it should be simple enough for a user to "repair" the Firefox installation and restore their selections post upgrade.

Oh the irony!

[Anonymous Coward]

Lemme repost directly from HN for convenience:

Animats 16 hours ago

I am writing to you about a very disturbing aspect of Firefox 38.0.5. Specifically, that the update experience appears to have been designed to throw away the choice your customers have made about the Internet experience they want, and replace it with the Internet experience Mozilla wants them to have.

When we first saw the Firefox upgrade experience that strips users of their choice by effectively overriding existing user preferences for the search engine and other apps, and forces the integration of Pocket and Sync, we reached out to your team to discuss this issue. Unfortunately, it didn’t result in any meaningful progress, hence this letter.

We appreciate that it’s still technically possible to preserve people’s previous settings and defaults, but the design of the whole upgrade experience and the default settings APIs have been changed to make this less obvious and more difficult. It now takes more than twice the number of mouse clicks, scrolling through content and some technical sophistication for people to reassert the choices they had previously made in earlier versions of Firefox. It’s confusing, hard to navigate and easy to get lost.

Sometimes we see great progress, where consumer products respect individuals and their choices. However, with the launch of Firefox 38.0.5 we are deeply disappointed to see Mozilla take such a dramatic step backwards.

These changes are unsettling because there are millions of users who love Firefox and who are having their choices ignored, and because of the increased complexity put into everyone’s way if and when they choose to make a choice different than what Mozilla prefers.

We strongly urge you to reconsider your business tactic here and again respect people’s right to choice and control of their online experience by making it easier, more obvious and intuitive for people to maintain the choices they have already made through the upgrade experience. It should be easier for people to assert new choices and preferences, not just for other Mozilla products, through the default settings APIs and user interfaces.

Please give your users the choice and control they deserve in Firefox.

Re:Oh the irony!

[Z00L00K]

I can't see that I recognize that problem on my Firefox installation, it looks more like they did have an infected system by some unwanted program/virus/adware.

Re:Oh the irony!

[Anonymous Coward]

Please give your users the choice and control they deserve in Firefox.

Done: PaleMoon ;-)

Re:Oh the irony!

[jez9999]

Yeah quite. This is rich coming from Mozilla. "Removing user choice" has pretty much been their UX team's modus operandi for years now (and telling users they never really wanted that choice anyway; they wanted Chrome). Now they go whining to Microsoft about a lack of user choice? Go fuck yourselves, Mozilla. Only Pale Moon gives a shit about what you guys used to.

Re:Oh the irony!

[babybird]

I abandoned Firefox ages ago and switched to Chrome, despite some of my most beloved extensions not being available, or being less functional on Chrome, because I got sick of the direction they were going.

One of the things that ticked me off from a user perspective was constantly having my extensions disabled due to forced updates that broke them at a pace so rapid that the (mostly) volunteers who made those extensions in their spare time while holding down regular jobs were unable or unwilling to keep up with. It's asking quite a lot of a lot of free or hobbyist developers to create and update the extensions that make the browser usable for so many different people and use cases to deal with a constant influx of changes that break their work every few weeks. I was sick of that.

The other thing that ticked me off was a change they made to their download manager. It used to be there was an option you could check that would automatically delete downloads from the download manager's list when closing the browser, so you'd start out with a clean downloads list every time you started the browser, but for some idiotic reason, they decided that was not a useful feature and should be removed-- so they took the option and its functionality out entirely, so even setting the option in about:config didn't do anything.

The reasoning behind that choice made sense, from a default config point of view-- it could lead a user to believe that deleting the download from their downloads list meant that the download wouldn't show up in their browsing history when in fact the download still existed in the download history, so they thought removing that option made more sense from a user privacy/security expectation point of view. That's probably correct, although such a user would likely also delete their history on exit as well, and that option already existed and still exists today, so it's still an illogical position.

Even more illogical was the decision to remove the option to clear the downloads history on exit entirely, because the functionality still exists in the browser if you're willing to go through half a dozen clicks and an extra window before closing the browser-- clicking to open the download manager, then clicking the "clear" button will do exactly what the former option did, removing the downloads from the downloads list, but not from the browser history-- but there is no functionality to automate this behavior anymore.

What put the final nail in the coffin for me, though, was the response I and many other users got when we reported the issue and put in a feature request to bring the old functionality back at least as a configurable option. Despite our presenting several valid use cases in which the option would solve problems for users as was requested by the developer(s) reading the issue-- we were told that those reasons didn't matter, didn't make sense, and would be ignored, and that if we really wanted it back, we could just use an extension to get it back (an extension which doesn't exist, and obviously none of the users who have the issue are able to create ourselves or we would have, although no guarantee we'd be able to keep up with the seemingly bi-weekly API breaks to keep it compatible /snark) or live without it.

But that attitude seems to have become almost pervasive in the Mozilla/Firefox development world, and since I can't abide that kind of blind commitment to an unreasonable ideological position and that kind of dismissive attitude of my quite legitimate needs (from my point of view), I abandoned ship and haven't looked back.

At this point, I couldn't care less what Mozilla/Firefox thinks about anything-- they have utterly lost their way and become basically what Microsoft of old was. I have better things to spend my days in this life with than that. I mourn the loss of what was once a fantastic product and community, but there's no point keeping the corpse lying around and posing it to make it seem like it's still alive. You were great once, Firefox, but now you're dead. Get back in your casket.

Re:Oh the irony!

[Anonymous Coward]

Despite our presenting several valid use cases in which the option would solve problems for users as was requested by the developer(s) reading the issue-- we were told that those reasons didn't matter, didn't make sense, and would be ignored, and that if we really wanted it back, we could just use an extension to get it back (an extension which doesn't exist, and obviously none of the users who have the issue are able to create ourselves or we would have, although no guarantee we'd be able to keep up with the seemingly bi-weekly API breaks to keep it compatible /snark) or live without it.

Ever since the removal of the status bar in 4.0, that's been the attitude of the Mozilla Priests of the UXtard Cathedral, and if you don't like their UX decisions, you're free to join the Bazaar.

The Bazaar was a fun place to be when you're improving on existing functionality, or experimenting with new ways to present things. It's a lot less fun when it becomes a full-time job trying to undo the ex-cathedra pronouncements of the UX priests.

Left Firefox for Pale Moon before Australis came out. Never looked back.

European Union

[DanJ_UK]

Ha, the EU will be all over this. Microsoft were supposedly turning themselves around, not opening themselves up for more fines from EU courts.

Re: European Union

[Anonymous Coward]

EU better should work on forcing laptop sellers to offer devices without windows. I don't care that Windows is shipped with Microsoft applications but I do care that I am forced to pay for this Microsoft office even if I never use it anymore! Fix it EU, please do fix it!

Re:European Union

[Anonymous Coward]

This was a settlement, which has since expired.

Re:European Union

[oji-sama]

I'm pretty sure the installer asked if I want to reset the default applications...

Re:European Union

[thegarbz]

Ha, the EU will be all over this. Microsoft were supposedly turning themselves around, not opening themselves up for more fines from EU courts.

No they won't. The Mozilla CEO is moaning and apparently has never even attempted the upgrade.

Windows 10 installer presents a screen asking if you want to change the default applications and giving you an option for a whole set: Browser, Video, Audio, Pictures etc. The installer actually gives the user the choice and choice was in essence what the EU settlement was all about.

Re:European Union

[Anonymous Coward]

It doesn't ask if you choose "Express Install", it just silently resets them.

Re: European Union

[Anonymous Coward]

EU should force ipads to ship without ios as well. That would be great, thanks.

Re:European Union

[DanJ_UK]

Is that the en_US or en_GB locale though? There's massive differences between the two languages after all...

Pot, meet Kettle

[swan5566]

Granted I like firefox over any MS browser... but come on now. That letter has just as much business intent for Mozilla as the the default browser switch does for MS.

Re:Pot, meet Kettle

[Vlad_the_Inhaler]

I don't even see the problem.
My Browser default (under Windows 7, at work) is IE-whatever.
If I want to start browsing, I fire up my browser of choice and get to it. IE does not get a look in.

Re:Pot, meet Kettle

[driblio]

And when you click on a link in an email? Or a shitty uninstaller opens a browser at the end to apologise for being shitty? That's when the default browser matters.

Mozilla had better gear up...

[QuietLagoon]

Mozilla will be facing the Take Back The Web battle with Microsoft once again, though this time it will be a bloated Firefox vs. a newly aggressive Microsoft.

.
Microsoft has caught the smell of Firefox's current weakness and is exploiting it.

What to watch: will Firefox's marketshare drop to the point where Firefox no longer has any impetus in pushing for, or moving towards, new web standards? A browser's marketshare needs to be over 20% (some say, well over 20%) for the browser to have that amount of gravitas.

Perhaps this default settings quarrel is Microsoft trying to grab a lump of marketshare for Edge, giving Edge a big boost towards that 25% mark and cementing Edge as a replacement for Firefox in setting web standards.

Re:Mozilla had better gear up...

[Z00L00K]

And what alternative browser do you think that we shall use that actually supports some of the add-ons that Firefox have?

The fact that Firefox is getting bloated - blame the development of the web, like HTML5 support needed.

Re: Mozilla had better gear up...

[Anonymous Coward]

Firefox has been a non-entity in web development for years now. The mantra is "develop in Chrome, test in IE." Since Safari and now Opera are just WebKit anyway, chances are you already support them by supporting Chrome. Firefox's market share is so piddly these days that absolutely no one cares if it doesn't work in Firefox. Since Firefox is generally standards compliant, something built in Chrome will probably work in Firefox as well. Weirdly the reverse isn't true: Firefox supports a my of weird, non-standard CSS and JavaScript these days.

Re:Mozilla had better gear up...

[QuietLagoon]

The fact that Firefox is getting bloated - blame the development of the web, like HTML5 support needed.

Or Pocket....

Re:Mozilla had better gear up...

[Anonymous Coward]

Considering Mozilla's constant spew of cash to Republican hate organizations, it is our moral duty to not support their browser no matter what market share they have. We need to stand-up to the hate. We need to give a voice to the victims that Mozilla is attacking and trying to silence.

Re:Mozilla had better gear up...

[fahrbot-bot]

The fact that Firefox is getting bloated - blame the development of the web, like HTML5 support needed.

Or Pocket....

Or Hello, Social, Apps, WebIDE ... (did I miss anything?)

I dread having to search through about:config for new things to disable with every new Firefox release. Firefox is suppose to be a great *browser*, not kitchen sink (or more appropriately, kitchen junk-drawer). [ That's a job for Emacs :-) ]

Re:Mozilla had better gear up...

[Anonymous Coward]

Considering Mozilla's constant spew of cash to Republican hate organizations, it is our moral duty to not support their browser no matter what market share they have. We need to stand-up to the hate. We need to give a voice to the victims that Mozilla is attacking and trying to silence.

I can forgive Brendan Eich for being a bigot. I'll never forgive him for inventing Javashit.l

Re:Mozilla had better gear up...

[thegarbz]

Perhaps this default settings quarrel is Microsoft trying to grab a lump of marketshare for Edge

Perhaps the default settings quarrel is not a quarrel at all but rather unjustified complaining of a CEO who may or may not have blindly clicked yes a dozen times to get through the windows setup. The setup presents a screen asking if default programs should be reset. You can chose not to, which is what I did. ... not that I was running Firefox.

Re:Mozilla had better gear up...

[Anonymous Coward]

Kind of like he moans when users continue to find it slow and bloated, it's clearly their own fault.

Re:Mozilla had better gear up...

[Anonymous Coward]

I and many others use Pocket, but it should be an add-on. I assume there will be no significant difference in usability, speed and security if it were an add-on instead of a built-in feature. Apart from that, what is a useful feature and what is bloat is unclear. Bloat for one user is a feature for another. Plus, firefox is a modern browser competing with chrome on features. They could probably move the features from the main program and move them to add-ons.

I am more interested in it not crashing as often as it currently does, mostly (maybe always) due to flash.

Re:Mozilla had better gear up...

[Anonymous Coward]

A large part of Edge code is copied from Firefox. So its not a battle actually. M$ needs Firefox. M$ copies a lot of open source code and sells it for a profit.

Please

[thewebsiteisdown]

Its like saying "Hey, Chevrolet, you know your customers like the radio station set to 101.9, why cant you engineer your cars to respect their choice instead of forcing your nefarious 101.5 agenda." You're installing a new operating system. If you think there is going to be zero configuration, you have no business installing an operating system. Setting the default applications is in the same place it always was. With all of Mozilla's other problems solved, its good to see Beard focus on what matters /s.

Re:Please

[Penguinisto]

Funny thing - I've upgraded OSX twice on my laptop, and each time, my old prefs and settings were right where I left them. Even the wallpaper was where I left it. The only settings I had to dork around with were ones attached to new features...

Re:Please

[Anonymous Coward]

Personally, I like the complete refresh of settings. Yes, sometimes I lose things and it's troublesome to get them back the way I wanted. But a refresh of my settings, etc allows me to sort of reorganize my computer. I could care less that my wallpaper (something I set pretty much once and never changed) has an opportunity for me to actually spend time on it. I also like the defaults going back at times like this because then I can try all the new features and differences.

Re:Please

[Tackhead]

Its like saying "Hey, Chevrolet, you know your customers like the radio station set to 101.9, why cant you engineer your cars to respect their choice instead of forcing your nefarious 101.5 agenda."

Yeah, but this is a Mozilla car analogy we're talking about here.

In the current 2015.7 model, release, the UX team has decided that a 5-button hamburger menu on an AM dial (and only from 1100Khz to 1150KHz in 10KHz increments) is all that's needed. Users who want to access a wider range of frequencies in the AM band are free to write an extension or purchase a third-party radio head unit.

To further improve the user experience, we remind prospective extension developers that in the Aurora channel for the 2016.1 model year, the about:config setting for frequency.megavskilohertz has been removed, along with the FM antenna. The UX team has made this recommendation based on telemetry that suggests that few drivers actually listen to FM radio, especially since the 2013.6 model, in which the AM/FM toggle switch was removed because the UX team for 2012.1 felt it was cluttering the dashboard.

Nonsense

[Anonymous Coward]

I had absolutely no issues maintaining by browser preferences after upgrading, it was a single click like with any other browser installation. Maybe they should try getting back to their roots making a lightweight browser people would like to use instead of the bloated piece of Frankenstein crap it is now.

EU Antitrust

[TerryC101]

Anybody else see a big fine for Microsoft on the horizon. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

Re:EU Antitrust

[Anonymous Coward]

Anybody else see a big fine for Microsoft on the horizon.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

Live in the past much? Since MS hasn't had browser dominance for years, they aren't going to do jack.

Default settings but not without choice.

[Anonymous Coward]

I just updated my old laptop to Windows 10. If you pay attention to the install process you can deselect the defaults. If it's new and Microsoft then we must hate everything they do! I'll test it for my own curiosity and decide if it's as bad as the scare stories claim.

Choice in Firefox OS?

[gti_guy]

So where can I change my default browser in Firefox OS?

Re:Choice in Firefox OS?

[tepples]

Where can I even buy a Firefox OS device in the home country of Mozilla?

Re:Choice in Firefox OS?

[ChunderDownunder]

Do ZTE market phones in the US, like they do in Australia, where you can pick up an Android handset at the supermarket with your groceries? If so, contact the distributor - the Open C runs Firefox OS and there was a model update Open L rumoured in the pipeline back at the mobile conference a few months back.

Failing that, get a Nexus 4/5 and flash a nightly build. But if you just want to see the platform in action, you can load an emulator right in Firefox via the WebIDE menu item.

Four clicks!

[Dasirius]

It takes four clicks, not counting the Windows key and the letters "D", "E", "F", "A", "U", "L" and "T", to get from the desktop to having your browser of choice suck down all the defaults app status it can. Shh.

Re:Four clicks!

[jones_supa]

If you know what to look for, that is.

Re:Four clicks!

[Anonymous Coward]

If you know what to look for, that is.

You are absolutely correct.

The other day, there was something, I'm not quite sure what, that I did not know to look for.

I never did find it.

Re:Four clicks!

[SScorpio]

The alternative solution is to just start the browser you want, and select to make the browser the default when it asks. That will open the default programs window where you can set which browser to use.

So even for a novice, it's one extra step to select the browser rather than just switching it like it did in previous versions.

Recommended Reading

[Ukab the Great]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Scorpion_and_the_Frog

Pot Meet Black Kettle

[Anonymous Coward]

Just like how a semi-recent firefox update forced a new search engine on users by changing my long accepted default. The irony is delicious!

Hang on, let me call the waaahmbulance

[DogDude]

Really. "Twice the number of clicks"? Jesus, if you have to convince people that it's "only a few mouse clicks to install" is a program feature, then perhaps you should work on writing software that people actually want to use.

Misleading

[OhPlz]

The upgrade process asks you if you want "express settings" or if you want to make choices. If you're wanting to keep certain apps as defaults, you go the non-express upgrade route. It takes a few minutes at most. The only reason for Mozilla to be worried is that MS has the new lightweight browser while Mozilla now has the bloated piece of crap. The only problem with MS's new Edge browser is the lack of ad block.

Just change it back.

[Paleolibertarian]

FTFY!

http://mozilla.org/firefox/repair-win10

[NeilO]

So then, develop a "repair" tool to fix it for Firefox users.

In fact, just deliver it directly from mozilla's website. That way, you can post the URL on big billboards up and down the peninsula.

Because, you know, Windows users can then point their brand new Edge browser at that URL, load the ActiveX component and ... Oh wait.

Hold the phone

[Anonymous Coward]

If you selected Express Install, it changed the default.

If you selected Custom, it ASKS YOU IF YOU WANT TO KEEP YOUR DEFAULT SETTINGS, INCLUDING THE BROWSER.

Blame the users for not reading the installation screens.

Not a big problem

[Anonymous Coward]

As long as it can download other browsers as effectively as IE did in the past, I'm sure people will figure it out.

Mozilla lies.

[Coren22]

-5 troll article here.

I just installed Windows 10 last night. After the install was complete and you log in the first time, it asks you which of the installed browsers you would like to use. It still had Chrome, I selected it and it has since used it.

Does Mozilla want theirs to be at the top of the list? Do they expect that Windows 10 will carry over every setting from 7, 8, and 8.1?

Did the Mozilla CEO even try to install Windows 10 before firing off a message complaining?

Re:Mozilla lies.

[Anonymous Coward]

Did the Mozilla CEO even try to install Windows 10 before firing off a message complaining?

CAN the Mozilla CEO even try to install Windows 10?

Re:Mozilla lies.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, I came here to say this. I updated 8.1 to 10 on Wednesday and that was my exact experience. In fact, my default was still Firefox and I made the choice to switch the default to Edge to give it a chance (I'm back to Firefox).

Re:Mozilla lies.

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not when you're installing a fresh copy, it's when you're upgrading. At least read the article sometimes.

Re:Mozilla lies.

[ProzacPatient]

When I upgraded from 8.1 Pro to 10 Pro all my custom default apps were replaced with Microsoft apps including the browser which got changed from Firefox to Edge.

Re:Mozilla lies.

[Trailer Trash]

Did the Mozilla CEO even try to install Windows 10 before firing off a message complaining?

Well, maybe, but who cares? The really important thing is that he didn't contribute to any anti-gay-marriage whatevers.

Re:Mozilla lies.

[Anonymous Coward]

This was not my experience. I upgraded my son's laptop from Windows 8.1 to Windows 10. Before the upgrade Chrome was the default browser, but after the upgrade Microsoft Edge was the default browser. I launched Chrome and at the top was message that Chrome was not the default, did I want to make it the default, or I could say no. I clicked to make it the default, but it didn't work, each launch of Chrome prompted the same message at the top.

I tried launching Firefox, which was also on the laptop before the upgrade. Firefox asked the same question. I decided to see if Firefox could become the default browser, but telling Firefox to become the default browser wasn't enough to make it so.

I finally had to go into Windows 10's Setting, and somewhere in the personal settings was a list of default programs. Once I found that, I was finally able to click through a couple of prompts/lists and make Chrome the default browser again.

So can it be done, yes, but the first time it took some hunting.

Re:Mozilla lies.

[Anonymous Coward]

Did the Mozilla CEO even try to install Windows 10 before firing off a message complaining?

Why does that matter? With the Republican rulers of Microsoft constantly spewing their hatred of freedom message, the details just don't matter. They hate us. Hate us. They want open source developers to die. They are wasting billions just to try to force people to not use our software. I worked hard for over two decades contributing to open source products that Microsoft has taken away all of my users. They release garbage then force people to use it. They do not allow freedom. They are Republicans.

Re:Mozilla lies.

[ADRA]

Well, I installed a Windows 10 (preview) from scratch and installed firefox/chome. Both asked me to make it default, both got a windows prompt telling me the program wanted to be default, and both times I clicked yes. Default browser after this: The microsoft one. The only thing I could do to change the default was to specifically go to the default applications settings panel and update them specifically to use chome/firefox.

Now mind you, this was a recent pre RTM version so I can't say specifically if that was fixed in final, but if not, I imagine this can be quite miffing.

Re:Mozilla lies.

[Anonymous Coward]

Um, don't do the express upgrade...that is telling MS to pick every option for you.

Re:Mozilla lies.

[Coren22]

I upgraded.

You have to select express install for the change to happen. If you choose custom install instead, it asks you which you would like to use. I upgraded a laptop from Windows 8.1 Pro to Windows 10 Pro.

Re:Mozilla lies.

[Coren22]

AC has your answer. The Express install changes the defaults, as it redefaults many settings. If you do Custom, it asks after the first login.

Re:Mozilla lies.

[Coren22]

This was fixed from what I have read. MS changed the behavior of the default applications applet to prevent the application from doing the change to stop malware installers that change your defaults.

Re:Mozilla lies.

[sabbede]

Okay, setting aside how offensive and ignorant that was, Gates is a Democrat and Microsoft gives more to Democrats than to Republicans.

https://www.opensecrets.org/or...

Re:Mozilla lies.

[Anonymous Coward]

Now explain why the "Express" option is to change everything, as opposed to leaving things that don't need changing alone. Saying "it's just the express installation that changes things around" is just flat out disingenuous, which supposedly is just is what one would suspect from Microsoft and its fans.

This is a nice one to point at though for all those who thought Microsoft somehow had managed to change their spots in the last few years. Same old, same old Microsoft. Still a two bit company who can't stand one bit of competition. They just can't help themselves to save their lives.

Re:Mozilla lies.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, it is more important, as it addresses the issue lying lower on the Maslow's hierarchy of needs.
However, it's hardly relevant in this thread, so there's little point in bringing it up here.

Re:Mozilla lies.

[Coren22]

When you run an express install of the Nvidia drivers, are you surprised that it installed PHYSX? When you choose the "I don't want to make any decisions" installation, don't be surprised when it makes some decisions you don't like.

Re:Mozilla lies.

[Anonymous Coward]

What a load of BS. He is wealthy beyond our imagination. That makes him a Republican.

Re:Mozilla lies.

[Anonymous Coward]

Did the Mozilla CEO even try to install Windows 10 before firing off a message complaining?

CAN the Mozilla CEO even try to install Windows 10?

You had me at "Can the Mozilla CEO."

Re:Mozilla lies.

[Anonymous Coward]

More disingenuous bullshit. "I don't want to make any decisions" does NOT mean "I have decided to let you switch out my applications as you please for your own benefit and profit". It's as simple as that. Too much for you to grasp apparently, so EOT.

Re:Mozilla lies.

[Anonymous Coward]

You didn't choose the "Express Install" option which doesn't give a choice and just switches to Edge.

Re:Mozilla lies.

[thegarbz]

both got a windows prompt telling me the program wanted to be default, and both times I clicked yes. Default browser after this: The microsoft one.

This process has been completely locked out in Windows 10. Finally!

Any browser attempting to set itself as default now brings up a window that says if you want to change the default browser go into Settings > Blah > Blah and change it there.

Re:Mozilla lies.

[Cinnamon Beige]

AC has your answer. The Express install changes the defaults, as it redefaults many settings. If you do Custom, it asks after the first login.

The problem is that Express ought to have been 'keep current settings' with some fancy buzzword for 'reset me to all-Microsoft please!' instead. "Express" ought not mean "Have to reconfigure all my setting by hand on a new OS interface" but rather "Can reboot after install/upgrade and go."

Changing search engine in Edge

[Anonymous Coward]

In theory, this is easy. In practice, I have been unable to - it's Bing and nothing else. If anybody has succeeded please share.

Re:Changing search engine in Edge

[Anonymous Coward]

Click ..., then Settings, then View Advanced Settings, and scroll down to Search in the address bar. Click the dropdown and select add new. Google was already there, so I clicked on it and then hit Add as default.

Done. Survived a reboot too.

Re:Changing search engine in Edge

[sabbede]

Assuming you want google to be your default:

Navigate to google.com

Open Settings -> Advanced -> Search -> Add New

Now you'll see google listed. Just click it and hit Add as Default.

I was annoyed by that myself, so I said "why don't I try it from google's search page?" Worked out well! And I assume it will work the same for other engines as well. So long as they support Open Search.

I'd be a lot more sympathetic if Firefox...

[Anonymous Coward]

didn't fucking suck. Firefox is such a horrible piece of shit. I haven't used Internet Explorer in years, but I can't remember it ever being as bad as Firefox is today. Hell, using the Firefox 0.9x betas in like 1999 was not as bad using Firefox is today. Awfully shitty software.

Boo Fucking Hoo

[Anonymous Coward]

And JanieBoi, the pick your browser setting was for five years. Five years starting in 2009. Can you count, JanieBoi?

Still browsers!? What about sign in?

[Anonymous Coward]

You have to have a Microsoft account (e.g. Hotmail) in order to sign into your computer/applications, else you have to say no to two screens every time you open an app. Beyond that, the Windows Store on Windows 10 doesn't appear to really want to download applications if you simply login on the store. You have to login on Windows itself, else you'll encounter an error.

So... browsers... even the least sophisticated know you can change, and tend to have friends who can make that change for them. The rest tend not to care.

Forcing the Microsoft account... that should be the issue today.

Useless stupid jerk

[slashdot_commentator]

1) You don't "ask" a child molester to leave the kids alone. MS obviously wants more of a presence in the internet niche of the industry. They've allowed IE to become irrelevant for at least since 2009. They've wasted a ton of money on Edge's development, and MS needs something to make Windows 10 look like its a winner. Its a cheap way for MS to get new Windows 10 users to take a look at their new web browser, and its not like MS makes it impossible to go back to making chrome or an inferior 3rd party browser the default again.

2) Speaking as an actual firefox user, for some inexplicable reason, the CEO of firefox insists on releasing notably inferior web browsers from its previous versions at the beginning of 2015!!! They are slower than the firefox versions from the start of the year, and the older firefox versions were still noticeably slower than the competition. The only reason why the older versions were tolerable was that they weren't horribly slow like your current product! Now I frequently get odd moments when firefox seems to need to hit up the CPU, without browsing activity, and because the firefox code has such poorly implemented threading, the browser will seize up while waiting for firefox to resolve its background knitting! And that's on machines with an i7 desktop CPU, and 16GB of RAM!

3) Its a sign of extreme cluelessness when Beard thinks he can deflect from his failure as a CEO, and blame Microsoft for his incompetence. This isn't 2003; no one thinks of MS as the evil empire anymore; more like the asshole grandpa who still doesn't need a bedpan. How about securing patrons or a financing model after Google decided not to give you a free lunch anymore? How about not releasing new versions with new features that denigrate what little positive opinion firefox has left with its users?!?! Your CTO(?) had the right idea when he suggested chucking non-webkit code and starting from scratch. It sounds like unthinkable refactoring that would leave firefox dead in the water for a year, but at least you would retain your current user base!!! Instead of trying to build a McMansion on top of a crumbling foundation.

4) Since he doesn't code, the only constructive thing Beard can do at this point, is try to help find a CEO less incompetent than he is (preferably with a development background), or at least put a deadline on your resignation within 6 months, in order to force the board to find a replacement.

Dear Mozilla CEO

[LichtSpektren]

Why don't you disable by default the personalized spyware ad tiles, Pocket, and telemetry from Firefox?

Re:Dear Mozilla CEO

[rubycodez]

Microsoft is actually on the side of those corporations that want to take control of your system away from you, for marketing and advertisement and monetization purposes. You are the product, not their customer.

Re:Dear Mozilla CEO

[LichtSpektren]

Microsoft is actually on the side of those corporations that want to take control of your system away from you, for marketing and advertisement and monetization purposes. You are the product, not their customer.

No argument from me on that point. Microsoft is quite evil, and I avoid their products whenever possible. That being said, "to take control of your system away from you, for marketing and advertisement and monetization purposes" is precisely how I would describe Mozilla's goals with Firefox these days. When you use Firefox, you're making the Ferrari payments for everyone on Mozilla's board, because they are selling your personal information with their ad tiles, Pocket, and telemetry. YOU ARE THE PRODUCT, NOT THEIR CUSTOMER.

Er, what?

[Fweeky]

Users who upgrade to 10 will have their default browser automatically changed to the new Edge browse

I upgraded and it gave me a clear screen showing the new defaults, and an option to keep my existing ones, which I chose.

After booting, MPC-HC was still my default video player, foobar2000 was still my default music player, and Opera was still my default browser.

Re:Er, what?

[LVSlushdat]

Users who upgrade to 10 will have their default browser automatically changed to the new Edge browse

NOT TRUE.. I just upgraded to 10 from 8.1, where I had FF as my default browser.. After the upgrade, my default browser was *still* FF....

Re:Er, what?

[Anonymous Coward]

TRUE: Choosing the "Express Install" changes the default to Edge.

Mozilla?

[Anonymous Coward]

Didn't they jump the shark years ago?

The son remains the same

[Virtucon]

This happened with Windows 8 and both Google and Mozilla were all over Microsoft's butt about Browser lock in. It was fixed, things made clearer. Move on.

No idea what he's talking about...

[LVSlushdat]

I'm on the released build of Windows 10 and I had zero trouble with making Firefox my default browser. It was no more an issue that it was on XP/Vista/7... Guess the guy just wants to bitch at the MS CEO...

Re:No idea what he's talking about...

[Anonymous Coward]

TFS forgot to mention the switch of the default browser to Edge happens when "Express Install" is chosen.

What is all the fuss?

[Anonymous Coward]

I didn't have any trouble figuring this out when I upgraded, took all of 10 seconds; in fact when I started Chrome it noticed it wasn't default, asked me if I wanted to make it default and took me to the correct configuration screen. If the FF guys can't do this, or if the CEO is too stupid to figure it out how is that MS problem?
Its evidently a pretty trivial piece of code since it was already in Chrome when windows 10 was released.

Re:What is all the fuss?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, there's your problem... You had to click the left mouse button to open your new browser. That's too difficult for typical windoze users.

give me a break

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not that hard to set a different browser as the default. As soon as one installs your prompted as to whether to keep using edge or switch. I've gotten prompted twice after installing Opera. And in settings, all you have to do is type default and you can get to it. It's not hard AT ALL unless your brain dead. To which I guess that's most of firefoxs customer base.

Why doesn't anyone complain that changing the browser default in IOS AT ALL? That's somehow ok. 1 or 2 extra clicks to change the default ANYTHING in windows and it's a call for a public hanging.

  People complaining about the defaults on an OS is ridiculous and stupid. You don't hear about tire companies complaining or suing car companies. If a tech company is more whiny than a tire company, then they should just close their doors.

  Funny their name is Firefox. A Firefox was a real thing. Every now and then a forest would catch fire. Of the many woodland animals that would run from the blaze would be foxs'. Many of which would still be ON FIRE. They'd run out of the flames and into wooden villages, setting them on fire. Hence the term, FIREFOX. I'm reminded of this everytime I load Firefox on my otherwise fine PC only to see the CPU want to die and programs crawl then crash even after I close Firefox out.

Well DUH,

[Anonymous Coward]

They are upgrading WINDOWS, the default should be WINDOWS. If you don't like it Mozilla, Build your own operating system and set the browser to default to Windows, Somehow I don't think you will.

Re:Well DUH,

[hyperar]

Em, not really, he has a point, if you're updating, your settings should be kept.

Re:Well DUH,

[I'm just joshin]

In theory yes, in practice, that makes testing an upgrade process exponentially more difficult to test.

Re:Well DUH,

[Anonymous Coward]

So just uncheck change default apps at the end of the install and you keep all your settings? It's not that hard. It comes up after you login the first time, and asks you.

Re:Well DUH,

[hyperar]

Haven't seen that check, but, to be honest, never looked for it, i did an update just so it activates itself later when i did the clean install

Re:Well DUH,

[sabbede]

Well, it does ask if you want to change the default browser. It brings up a screen where you can choose your default apps, and the first one is your browser.

Re:Well DUH,

[hyperar]

Never saw that screen, got to do a clean Windows 8.1 install because it kept failing.

Re:Well DUH,

[sabbede]

Well with an upgrade I guess you have to do a custom, rather than express, install. I forgot about that bit.

Not that it matters a whole lot. The setting is pretty obvious in the new settings panel, or you could just right-click the start button. Defaults are there too. Or type 'default apps' into the search bar.

Re:Well DUH,

[david_thornley]

There is apparently a "custom install" that asks all the questions. Are you saying that was inadequately tested, since and Express that kept settings would be just the same as a Custom that had screens to keep all those settings?

Mozilla's CEO should worry about Firefox

[hyperar]

I wouldn't choose Firefox over IE4 at this point. Mr. Beard should worry about stop making a terrible browser and getting back on track.

Re:Mozilla's CEO should worry about Firefox

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey, it's great that you dislike Firefox, but that doesn't make it a terrible browser. If you're not going to add anything to the conversation, then please don't bother. Karma whoring is lame, 'kay?

Re:Mozilla's CEO should worry about Firefox

[hyperar]

Follow your own advice my friend. Firefox is in fact a terrible browser, compared to what it used to be, i was kind of sad when i was forced to use Chrome, after seeing the path FF has taken, now i'm not sad at all.

Re:Mozilla's CEO should worry about Firefox

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't see how Final Fantasy has anything to do with being forced to use Chrome.

Ohh, you meant Fx.

Fuck you

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't like it? Make your own OS, cunt.

Re:Fuck you

[hyperar]

They kind of did, which makes me wonder, does Firefox OS offers you to install other browsers?

Microsoft -- Google

[Anonymous Coward]

This methodology isn't just Windows. I upgraded to Office Mac 2016 - the entire thing is an advertisement for OneDrive.

Every time you ask to create, open, or save a document, Office presents you with a folder set for the contents of OneDrive. Oh, you want to save it to your local computer? Like some kind of neanderthal? Okay, fine, click the "On My Computer" option. Of course, you have to do this every. time.

Not using OneDrive? That's OK, you still get to see an empty OneDrive folder, and/or an invitation to subscribe or login to OneDrive.

Don't plan on using OneDrive? Want to disable it? Too bad so sad. Microsoft hopes that the 10,000th time it invites you, you'll eventually buckle, fork over some money, and submit to Microsoft as your locked-in cloud storage provider.

Remeber this string its important.

[sims 2]

GodMode.{ED7BA470-8E54-465E-825C-99712043E01C}

Its kind of like the classic control panel.

Also if your looking for the windows updates settings in windows 10 they moved it into the settings app it can't be found by search.

Is this what he's complaining about?

[ysth]

https://twitter.com/ubersoft/s...

Yahoo Search anyone?

[Anonymous Coward]

This is coming from the same company that set Yahoo! Search as the default, in a very sneaky manner.

Windows 10

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Is all about cross promoting Microsoft's other stuff Bing Everything, Xbox One, MS Store, IE (renamed). At least they had the decency to not charge you to upgrade to full screen live tile based advertisements for their other offerings like they did with Windows 8. There is not much in either version that truly benefits the user it's all about improving their flat revenue by getting suckers to buy or use their other crap. And of course Cortana is just about getting people to use Bing.

Just open the browser you want to use

[ITRambo]

Open Firefox, Chrome, or whatever browser you prefer. When asked if you want to make it your default, say yes. Two more clicks and your choice is now the default. I set up three PC's with Windows 10 in the last 2 days. Setting Chrome as the default took about 30 seconds each. This is a one time setting change and is not hidden at all. The head of Mozilla seems uninformed or looking for publicity, which he freely received.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Glass Houses and stuff

[tangledblanket]

This reminds me of another organization called Mozilla that, in Dec. 2014, changed the default Firefox search engine to Yahoo and in order to change it back to Google required users to use "...more than twice the number of mouse clicks".

Re:Glass Houses and stuff

[WalksOnDirt]

I could sort of understand that once, but it happened again when Firefox next updated; so I remove Yahoo from the search options. Perhaps they've fixed that by now.

Pot meet Kettle

[jenningsthecat]

FTS: "We strongly urge you to reconsider your business tactic here and again respect people’s right to choice and control of their online experience by making it easier, more obvious and intuitive for people to maintain the choices they have already made through the upgrade experience.

Oh... you mean the way you guys did when you both inflicted Australis on the world and changed the default search engine to Yahoo?

Well that's just not true.

[sabbede]

Not only does it ask what you want your default browser to be, changing it after the fact is dead simple.

Re:Still browsers!? What about sign in?

[LVSlushdat]

Windows 10 does not *force* an MS account when installing 10... They may make it the default choice, but its a no-brainer to skip that and use a local account..

UNIX is certified; *n?x is not

[tepples]

If a system implementing a useful subset of the Single UNIX Specification hasn't been certified, I'm more likely to call it "*n?x". This shell glob pattern matches Unix, Xenix, Minix, and Linux, among other things. (Xenix became SCO UNIX which became Xinuos OpenServer.)

Button to open system settings

[tepples]

What's changed is that browsers can't set themselves to be the default any more - the user has to do it explicitly in the system settings.

So why can't apps have a button to open the appropriate system settings form?

Re:Button to open system settings

[squiggleslash]

Personally I rather liked the 8.1 way, which was kinda similar to how Android does things if you haven't set a preference yet - applications could cause a dialog to appear that showed them the available applications to do X and set one of them as the default.

I'd like Microsoft to change it back to that. Who knows, if we put enough pressure on them, rather than demand they stop beating their wives, they might do it.

Re:Still browsers!? What about sign in?

[sabbede]

Just like in 8/8.1 you can use a local account instead. Just be careful when you set yourself up with the store. I accidentally converted my account to online in the process and when I converted it back, the progress window crashed, so I sat there for over an hour getting increasingly upset before I crossed my fingers and killed the window.

Everything worked out fine.

Secure Boot may lock PC owners into Windows 10

[tepples]

Yeah, but no-one can be forced to use Windows any more. There are far too many alternatives.

Which alternatives do not require buying hardware? OS X requires a Mac, iOS requires an iPhone or iPad, and Android with Google Play requires an Android device manufactured by an OHA member. GNU/Linux requires a PC with supported hardware and whose BIOS or UEFI isn't locked into a Microsoft-only Secure Boot. All x86 and x86-64 PCs that ship with Windows 8 let the PC's owner turn Secure Boot off per Microsoft's Windows logo requirements. But as of Windows 10, Microsoft is leaving Secure Boot lock-in up to the PC manufacturer.

Re: Secure Boot may lock PC owners into Windows 10

[Anonymous Coward]

You paranoiacs still carrying on about secure boot lol?

Re: Secure Boot may lock PC owners into Windows 10

[tepples]

You paranoiacs still carrying on about secure boot lol?

Point me to a working GNU/Linux live USB image for Surface 2 (not Pro, not 3) and we'll stop carrying on.

With the discontinuation of Windows RT, Microsoft is in effect giving each manufacturer the choice of whether to sell a Windows 10 PC under the old rules for Windows on x86-64, which forbid manufacturers to lock the PC's owner out of the Secure Boot options, or the old Windows RT rules, which require them to do so. Consider this situation: Someone buys a PC. Months later, long after the PC's return policy has expired, he learns about GNU/Linux and wants to try it. So he boots the live CD, only to discover that Secure Boot is blocking it. So he looks for something in the machine's EFI options, only to find that it's not there for that model because the manufacturer chose to apply the RT rules.

I can't even upgrade...

[Anonymous Coward]

"We're validating Windows 10 for your PC" for 2 days. Tried deleting the contents of C:\Windows\SoftwareDistribution\Download\ and running "wuauclt.exe /updatenow" but still the same. Windows update shows an error "Upgrade to Windows 10 Pro Installation status: Failed Error details: Code 80240020" Typical shitty Microshaft.

There's no third option "Keep what I have"

[tepples]

The complaint is that there's no third option for "Quickly install while keeping all existing settings the same as they were". There are only "Switch to all Microsoft services" (mislabeled "Express") and "Time-consuming interview" (correctly labeled "Custom").

But it is Mozilla, so...

[bobmajdakjr]

Does that mean FirefoxOS doesn't use Firefox for anything by default? I'm honestly asking, not trolling. I would assume that their technology would default to using their technology because why the hell not?

Automaticly networking to contacts....bad bad bad

[Anonymous Coward]

Just did a Win 10 upgrade last night and I was very glad I did not except the default settings.
Among the usual "Tell MS everything you do and use all our software."
I was disturbed by the "Automatically connect to known contacts networks" this is a security nightmare waiting to be exploited.

Microsoft doesn't innovate, just confuse.

[Anonymous Coward]

It seems every new version of Microsoft Windows or Office is a re-shuffling of where all the settings and menus are so that you have to re-learn the damn software all over again. Each newer version gets more confusing and harder to find where the settings are ....and Microsoft tells you that this actually makes you more productive!

I went over to the mac where it is far more simple and logical. Microsoft continues to invent gimmicks like charms, new browsers, etc that people don't really use. They just don't get what people want or care. It is a company ruled by lawyers most concerned about IP and licensing.

Cadence and a number of tech companies went down that road and over time their market share got eroded when some small companies entered, got better and better, eventually being their #1 competitor.

the end

[Anonymous Coward]

mozilla made firefox microsoft queer compliant while ignoring linux where it is mostlydefault.
now they can rot in hell withall nazi pc obama shit and lick ms ass once more.

Bad summary and/or FUD

[Vyse of Arcadia]

Users who upgrade to 10 will have their default browser automatically changed to the new Edge browser

No they won't. It popped up a screen that asked me if I wanted to change my defaults for four common tasks to the new Win10 apps for those tasks. Photos, videos, music, and browser. I clicked no on each, and my old defaults carried over.

Re:Bad summary and/or FUD

[Anonymous Coward]

It is a bad summary, they forgot to mention the defaults change automatically without prompting when you use the "Express Install".

Free comes with a cost

[Stan92057]

You downloaded it and installed it for FREE. You agreed to the TOS, so stop crying you made the deal with the devil because its FREE.

Re:Still browsers!? What about sign in?

[david_thornley]

Of course, I've seen processes called "no-brainers" on Slashdot that will stymie the average user long enough so it doesn't seem worth it. Slashdot has a lot of people who are really good with technical systems and can't spell "empathy".

Default Browser Set Test

[Anonymous Coward]

Just decided to see for myself - I've had Windows 10 for about 6 hours and have not selected a default browser:
1) Entered in Windows 10 search box from desktop: "Choose default we"
2) "Choose a default web browser" was found
3) Clicked on this setting
4) Scrolled down to Web browser
5) Clicked the little + sign
6) Selected one of the 3 available web browsers including IE, Edge, Chrome, or go to the store to get one

Isn't search great...seems to be pretty easy in Windows 10.

0 more clicks is better than 2 more clicks

[Anonymous Coward]

You lose that many more people exponentially with each extra click. The point is Microsoft REMOVED THE API that allows the browsers to set themselves as the default WITHOUT LEAVING THE APP so deliberately made it harder to switch, and on top of that switches everyone who does the "Express install" to Edge regardless of previous default.

Yeah....

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't think there was anything dumber than the "default browser" setting in previous versions of windows, and so much of windows is f***ing stupid. Doesn't make any difference to me whether I have to explicitly click on a firefox icon or no. And if you can't install firefox on windows 10, then the OS is so f***ed up that there's no chance I'll ever use it.

It is true. You are wrong.

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft REMOVED THE API that allows the browsers to set themselves as the default WITHOUT LEAVING THE APP so deliberately made it harder to switch, and on top of that switches everyone who does the "Express install" of Windows 10 to Edge regardless of previous default.

In any case, the new draconian EULA Microsoft introduced with 10 that takes away privacy means my decision to abandon Windows for Linux last year was the correct one.

Not lock down, "cash in!"

[s.petry]

I remember reading an article several years ago which covered some internal leaked MS memos. In essence it said that MS was going to monetize every component of an OS, including hardware access. Have a high end graphics card? Want graphics acceleration in a game? Pay the subscription rate for DirectX. Want an update, pay the subscription rate for the portion of the OS you want to update. Have 2x8 core CPUs and want to use them? That is an extra fee. Have memory you want to use? Past a certain point it costs money, even if you have the hardware installed. The leaks wanted to go back to a full blown Windows95 like treadmill system, but instead of shaking down other companies for money they shake down end users (mostly due to the monopoly and lack of competition, they can't shake down Bordland and Novell any longer..)

The difference between the current trend and the leaks is that in the leaks, MS wanted to have the majority of the OS download at system boot time.

That same article may have had some influence on the Steam on Linux project, I forget now...

Re: Not lock down, "cash in!"

[Anonymous Coward]

Neckbeard paranoia. You don't actually ...believe that garbage do you?

Re: Not lock down, "cash in!"

[s.petry]

Garbage as in Microsoft? You surely can't be claiming that internal leaks are garbage, especially since they have already started their attempt to "cash in" on some of what those memos discussed.

You also can't be claiming that history is garbage. MS was found to treadmill from Win3.11-98B, that is factual. Applications like Netscape and Bordland Compilers received scarce resources and would randomly be crashed by the Kernel. Binaries with a Microsoft copyright header received favorable resource allocation.

Oh, I get it. You claim paranoia hoping that people are stupid enough to ignore reality. The NSA does not spy on US citizens, the US Defense system does not commit war crimes or torture people, and of course all of our politicians are honest, and Microsoft really has the consumer's best interests in mind. Isn't that right shill?

addons?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not going anywhere near 'Edge' until I can install adblock and noscript on it.

Bolshy Yarblockos!

[Ol Olsoc]

What will we do? WHAT WILL WE DO?

After updating a sacrificial computer to W10, I installed Firefox. When it opened it told me it was not my default browser and to check a box if I wanted it to be default.

Am I going to get carpal tunnel for that one click? Regardless, I cried all night long, lost my self esteem, and became bulimic.

Thanks Obama!

Default Search

[blackfeltfedora]

This is the same Firefox that switched over to Yahoo as the default search engine?

Well, you should take this one for your sins

[Anonymous Coward]

I hope that Firefox doesn't install yahoo toolbar and other bullshit by default on W10. Because that would be embarrasing and hypocritical. Mozilla's CEO certainly wouldn't be like that just to try and make a quick snatch for unwarranted privileges on a new operating system, wouldn't he?

Changing the default browser in Window 10.

[Anonymous Coward]

Within 4 simple steps, change the default web browser in Windows 10.
http://browsersaddon.net/2015/08/change-your-default-browser-in-windows-10-in-4-simple-steps/

This from Mozilla?

[jmac_the_man]

I'm glad the Mozilla Software Foundation is worried about companies changing their user interfaces in confusing ways.

By the way, when you do an interview place upgrade from 8.1 to 10, if you don't pick "use all defaults" there's a dropdown where you can pick between Edge or a previously installed browser. Chrome works fine from this menu. Does Firefox not?

Windows 8 was the beginning of the end

[teknosapien]

Windows 8 Pro caused me to heed my daughters advice and switch to MAC. Now that I have I will never go back to a Microsoft based OS if I can help it.

Microsoft against the common good.

[Futurepower(R)]

Leaked memos from Microsoft:

"The Halloween documents comprise a series of confidential Microsoft memoranda against open-source software".

Microsoft: Embrace, extend, extinguish

[Futurepower(R)]

1998: Intel exec: MS wanted to 'extend, embrace and extinguish' competition.

Software abuse: Directed toward most users

[Futurepower(R)]

Slashdot discussions don't handle software abuse well. Often those with technology experience don't see that abusers are interested in abusing most people, while avoiding annoying those who would have the technical experience to complain.

Pot meet Kettle, Abuser meet abuser

[Futurepower(R)]

[Mozilla Foundation] "inflicted Australis on the world and changed the default search engine to Yahoo".

Mozilla Foundation lost its $300,000,000 yearly income when Google stopped paying to have Google the default search engine. Now most, or almost all, of Mozilla Foundation's money comes from Microsoft, through Yahoo.

This is the new arrangement: Microsoft pays Yahoo. Yahoo pays Mozilla Foundation to make "Yahoo search" (actually Microsoft Bing search) the default search engine in Firefox. Most people don't have the technical knowledge to know how they've been manipulated, or how to restore the default search engine to Google search.

Mozilla Foundation has apparently allowed deliberate damage to the Thunderbird and SeaMonkey Composer GUIs. Every time you do a file save, the newer versions of both ask for a new file name, and don't suggest the last one chosen. The damage was reported several months ago, but has not been fixed.

Was that done because Microsoft wanted it? Is that another example of Embrace, Extend, Extinguish? People who feel forced away from Thunderbird may choose Microsoft software to replace it. Is that what Microsoft is trying to accomplish?

Slashdot discussions usually don't handle software abuse well. Often those with technology experience don't see that abusers are interested in abusing most people, while avoiding annoying those who would have the technical experience to complain by providing a technical way to avoid that particular abuse.

Re:Pot meet Kettle, Abuser meet abuser

[jenningsthecat]

Thanks for the insight and the additional info - I'd mod you up if I could.

Not those leaks

[s.petry]

While good information for the person wanting to know how crappy a company can be, the leaks I'm referring too are much more recent. Last 5 years maybe, and were regarding how MS saw the future and how to cash in with an internet based Kernel and downloadable content.

The leaks from 1998 were from a bit before 98, when MS still thought that the Internet would fail.

get a life

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey Mozilla fool, get a life. If you want to complain about the OS doing things to prevent users from seamlessly continuing to use your crappy browser, complain to Google and Apple too, otherwise you just look desparate.