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'Paying Taxes Is a Lot Better Than Phony Corporate Courage, Apple' (theintercept.com)
theodp writes: Every fall," writes The Intercept's Sam Biddle, "internet and its resident tech mumblers congregate for The Apple Event, a quasi-pagan streaming-video rite in which Tim Cook boasts of just how much money his company is making (a lot) and just how much good it's introducing to the world (this typically involves a new iPhone). This is merely annoying most years; but in 2016, when Apple is loudly, publicly denying its tax obligations around the world, it's just gross." Biddle finds Apple's use of the word 'courage' to describe the corporate ethos that pushed the company to remove the headphone plug from the newest iPhone while offering a new pair of $160 jack-free earbuds particularly irksome: "Removing a headphone jack or adding 20 headphone jacks does not require courage; engineers are very smart, but their job does not typically require much bravery. Courage is more often found in, say, running into a burning school to rescue the students and class rodent. Or, maybe, you could call courageous the act of paying the many billions you owe around the world into the system that ensures those students have all of the resources they need in order to learn and grow. Just a hint: Collaborative spreadsheet software doesn't count [introducing new real-time collaboration features, Cook called iWork a "very important tool in education"].
The most powerful among us force the rest to pay "taxes", which is really nothing more than thievery. I didn't sign any contract, or make any agreement to pay taxes. Yet I can be thrown in jail if I do not give my money. Under which God is this right?
I have only apathy-to-mild-antipathy for Apple, but think it's pretty abusive of these governments to attempt to charge them retroactively for taxes that they were dodging fair and square, and pretty dangerous and short-sighted for the general populace to so gleefully support these sort of violations of ex post facto.
It's important to understand the difference between tax avoidance and tax evasion. Tax avoidance is taking all the deductions, programs, etc. you are entitled to under tax law. We would never expect an individual to not take a tax deduction or child credit etc. because they have "courage". That's just bad personal finances. Tax evasion, on the other hand, is illegally trying to avoid paying taxes you owe. For example, lying on your tax forms.
I have no problem with Apple doing legal tax avoidance, and all their investors (including a lot of your personal retirement plans, etc) would agree. Anything else would not be patriotism, it would just be bad finance practice. If they're doing something illegal, that's another issue. But let's not slam a corporation that is legally following tax law. Instead, let's slam legislators and encourage legislation to close tax loopholes and simplify the tax code.
Just because I can hook a shark from a boat, I do no offer to wrestle it in the water.
Get over it. If you don't want to buy it don't fucking buy it but do we really need to hear every fucktards opinion on the situation ad nauseam? What the fuck has Slashdot become?
Apple doesn't need to rescue students from fire. Apple doesn't even need to pay taxes that employ firefighters. Instead they have the courage to make batteries that don't catch fire in the first place.
this one seemed to be the best answer, http://www.theverge.com/2016/9...
mfwright@batnet.com
People who brag about their generosity are typically both A: not actually that generous, and B: doing it for personal gain
Apple pays what the law says. You don't like the law, then fucking change it.
Politicians have no courage. They whine and complain, but that's all.
And the people have no fucking idea what it's all about, but they sure will Tweet bullshit about it anyway.
Ultimately, go fuck yourself if you think someone has a fucking obligation to pay taxes. It's all highway robbery anyway.
Does Mr. Biddle pay more taxes than the absolute minimum he believes he is legally mandated to?
If not, he should just STFU, climb down off his moral high horse, and stew in his rank hypocrisy.
The whole "tax headquarters" thing is obsolete. The taxes a corporation pays shouldn't depend on their headquarters location. That just invites tricks.
Perhaps "profits" are just too hard to track internationally and revenues should guide taxes instead.
Table-ized A.I.
Apple isn't exactly solving world hunger or curing cancer (some might say their phones are contributing to cancer). They are a tech corporation with thousands of employees and make enormous sums of money. They are run and managed like any other Fortune 100 company where revenue and profits are king and who have a large tax department to minimize their tax liability to last cent. There is nothing 'courageous' about the company. They make products consumers like and make big bucks for their shareholders. They are the definition of Corporate America.
The moral thing to do is pay your fair share of taxes.
But instead Apple feels entitled to pay as little as possible (wether the tricks they used are illegal or not remains to be seen, I guess).
AC comments get piped to
The EU has turned into a parasitic leech that wants to fund irresponsible socialist programs with outside money, because they've spent the last three decades trying to eat their own tail. The Irish tax system has been in place for literally decades, it's a joke that the EU is trying to retroactively change tax laws of a sovereign nation state for a quick pay day. The EU is quickly going to find itself a land no one wants to touch because of the arrogant plutocrats who will magically decide you owe back taxes anytime their irresponsible financial management lands them in a pinch.
"Sorrow is better than laughter, for by sadness of face the heart is made glad." [Ecclesiastes 7:3]
Tim Cook is that you...
right? After all, this Swedish-flavoured Dutch shell corporation is set up to pay as little as possible with the full complicity of the government.
Corporations don't pay taxes, their customers do. When corporations get hit with taxes, they raise their prices.
Sam Biddle is crook and a bully. Please, ignore him when he tries to insert himself somewhere.
Theodp's rants are really going off the deep end. He needs to adjust his medication.
I have only apathy-to-mild-antipathy for Apple, but think it's pretty abusive of these governments to attempt to charge them retroactively for taxes that they were dodging fair and square....
They were lying. I'm not sure that this counts as "dodging taxes fair and square." They were telling one government that their intellectual property was insanely valuable; that's why their offshore subsidiary that didn't make any product could bookkeep tons of profit on that product they didn't make. And they were telling another government that the same intellectual property had little value at all, that's why their offshore subsidiary didn't have to pay licensing fees to the main corporation (which would have been income to Apple.)
When you lie, and get caught at it, you're subject to sanctions. You're not allowed to pretend all your income was earned in a country that does not, actually, produce any product. That's fraud.
Filter error: Don't use so many caps. It's like YELLING.
that was my intent, you nimrod filter.
Yah Sam, I'm sure all that money is going straight to education.....
Or, maybe, you could call courageous the act of paying the many billions you owe around the world into the system that ensures those students have all of the resources they need in order to learn and grow.
No that's just called being responsible to society. I don't approve of misusing the word courage for removing earbuds any more than approve of it's misuse for trying to shame a company for not paying taxes. It's just the "running into a burning building" and stuff like it, and corporations can't run into burning buildings, so don't expect them to be courageous.
If I was in charge of Apple I would give the EU an ultimatum. I would either require them to STFU about their excessive tax and keep with the status quo within 24 hours or completely cease operations in the EU leaving the governments and the customers (who voted for these overly corrupt and wasteful governments) high and dry. This action would include by not be limited to disabling all Apple services making every iOS Device and Mac in the EU completely worthless. This would piss the European people off to no end I'd expect the EU government to be completely gone within a few months. DON'T FUCKING OVERTAX APPLE EUROPE!
Let's say Tim's name were 'Jack' instead. There might be some satisfaction in removing the "Head" of Apple, named "Jack".
Everyone cheering on the "tax em" brigade, should be asked whether or not they personally pay more taxes than they legally need to.
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These people who keep harping on the 'courage' thing are aware that in context Schiller clearly meant 'courage of our convictions', right?
Nothing to do with physical bravery or making fake claims that this is an important moral issue.
Once they get a total, Apple will dispute it legally and probably end up paying 10% of it as a settlement, then claim how morally responsible they are. Hail Apple.
There is no such thing as "the spirit of the law." That's a weasel phrase used by people that don't like the outcome. The reason the law is written down is so that there is no ambiguity.
There may be hundreds of people voting for a given law, and each one has his or her reason for voting on that law. Do you mean to say that when adjudicating a case you need to take the personal opinion of every lawmaker into account? That would be the true "spirit of the law."
If you do that, then what's the point of the law in the first place?
What I do isn't courage. It's just a job that needs to be done. I have trust in my equipment, my training, and the other firefighters around me - it's going to be fine. Even if it's not, I can't think of a more meaningful way to die than directly trying to save people.
I see what you did there =)
How can an agreement with a country be illegal? Answer, it can't be. The EU just decided after the fact, that they thought it wasn't right and are making it illegal... remember Apple has been doing this for a long time, out in the open. If it were not legal why did it take so long for the EU to figure this out?
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I'm NOT an Apple fanboi, I have more Microsoft products than I do Apple products...
I don't know why everybody if so fixated on the new $160 bluetooth headphones, implying that they are the ONLY replacement for the current headphones. Apple is supplying corded lightning headphones as well as an 1/8" adapter with the iPhone 7 so there is NO NEED whatsoever to rush out and buy a pair of overpriced bluetooth headphones because Apple is removing the headphone jack.
Of course the issue with taxes needs to be addressed but why is Apple being singled out, they're NOT the only company playing shell games with revenue and tax code loopholes to reduce their tax burden as low as they can. Fix the system and companies won't be able to exploit the loopholes in the system.
You didn't say "yes" per se, but you came to our house and accepted those drinks so we deserve to take what we're owed. Don't forget, we did Campus Cleanup last week, and defended you from those REALLY bad guys who wouldn't even have used protection! You're being a real ungrateful bitch.
This is not Apple's problem. This is a problem with the Governmental taxation systems around the world. Apple is doing EXACTLY what they should be doing.
Apple is accountable to their shareholders, and only to their shareholders. It's their responsibility to maximize shareholder value, and paying the least tax that they legally can is at the top of that list. If they paid $0.01 more than they had to, they'd be remiss.
The issue is with the taxation systems that make what they're doing COMPLETELY LEGAL. Apple is a business, not a charity. Fix the system, and Apple will gladly play along and do what they're legally obligated to do. Reduce US corporate taxes and they'll re-patriate their offshore incomes. Don't blame them for doing what they're supposed to do.
If you assume that Apple is "denying [their] tax obligations" and not paying "billions [they] owe", then it is not courageous. If you understand that those conclusions are not forgone, then standing up to powerful, coercive and dangerous organization is.
Better to make useful products that people love than pay for yet more bombs to be used by nitwits who don't understand the concept of courage. Bravo Apple. Shame on the jackasses trying to pick Apple's pocket.
I don't care about Apple too much, but seriously,"tax on profit" is one of the most ridiculous taxes ever to be designed, possibly the one most unnatural. Commies love it for some reason, but in practice, it's horrible.
Companies end up taking foolish loans and making foolish investments, just to avoid this tax. The popular belief in my country is, that a company, to be successful, must be in debts for at least 50% of it's value.
Of course this is as retarded as it gets. Barely any of those companies will last for over 20 years. People end up losing their jobs and paying company's unreturned loans with tax money. The only sector to really profit off this tax are banks.
STOP CLICKBAITING SLASHDOT
This should be really simple. Everyone and every corporation should pay every dime of taxes they owe. Now, Congress has written and Presidents have signed off on a hideously complex tax code. Since that is what they wanted, is it really any surprise that people and corporations hire accountants to make sense of it and to minimize the amount of taxes they pay? All this talk about the spirit of the law and so on is utter nonsense. If someone doesn't like the amount of taxes Apple is paying, show where they are violating the law and the Government can go after them. Until then, everyone can whine all they want, but the root of the problem and the solution lies with the United States Congress, which last I check had an approval rating of 14%, so don't hold your breath for tax reform.
When I heard "Courage.", i just took it to be media-translated from "Balls." ("cause you know we can get away with it.")
When will the government ministers in Ireland who set up this massive tax giveaway to Apple be jailed or fired?
That's the question we should be asking.
Remember: if Apple gets a sweetheart deal, your taxes and all the taxes on their competitors, go up.
There is no magic funding fairy building your roads, seaports, and other things.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
You don't mind governments, so long as they only spend money on things that you and you alone think are worth spending money on. So the only form of government that you'll be happy with is one in which you are the supreme authoritarian ruler. You'll forgive the rest of us for not signing up.
Pretty much all zealots are annoying--but I find libertarians to be especially so. They're stupid, they don't know that they're stupid, and they are certain that everyone else is stupid.
While I agree that Apple (and others) should be made to pay its fucking taxes, everybody just pays the taxes he can't avoid to pay. Apple is in no way special here. It's not Apple that failed here. It's regulations and international loop holes that were not fixed and still aren't fixed.
So Cook stated it was a courageous move to remove the jack in the iPhone 7. Oh really, Cook. Courageous just like decision to prematurely omit an opitcal drive before many mac users in the outer suburbs and out state had decent internet band width?
Cook your ethics and morals are completely bankrupt when:
You get on your soap box and preach to the U.S. about gay discrimination while doing business in countries which persecute and execute gays.
You say you are following the law concerning taxes but in reality you are using a loophole which enables Apple to dodge its tax responsibilities.
You allow totally skewed standards with what movies are allowed in to be shown in Apple trailers. A documentary about Vidal? Sure. A fact based movie by Dinesh D'Souza or Peter Schweizer? Not a chance. Nothing like a dose of good old censorship and indoctrination, Tim Cook.
Cook you are a douche of the highest order.
So, they got Ireland's tax authority's "blessing" to not pay taxes to other countries. Isn't that nice. Getting a third party's consent doesn't give you the right to not pay taxes in the place where income is earned.
If I get Ireland's blessing to tell me "you don't have to pay US taxes", that does not affect my IRS income tax bill.
Which is exactly why I said "explicitly". As in "military and law enforcement are explicitly in the government's care", while trying to justify spending my money on some bum's food and healthcare requires turning the "general Welfare" clause into a blank check.
Nope, it does not. Stick to the "general Welfare" part — it worked fine for millions of Statists before you.
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
Even Obama wants to do that. In fact, so do both parties.
You can foam at the mouth about how unfair the real world is all you want, imposing increasingly higher taxes on corporations or individuals will cause them to adopt "tax avoidance strategies". If you make the taxes high enough, they'll simply stop operating/working altogether. It's as unavoidable as gravity.
Stop fucking telling me what you think I should think. I feel like I'm watching Fox News.
quote:
Do you have any real information to suggest there's a deal?
"'Paying Taxes Is a Lot Better Than Phony Corporate Courage, Apple' "
People who equate paying higher than legally required taxes with being "patriotic" or "moral" are lying.
It's the same as passing oppressive legislation "for the children". It's almost always a lie.
I have only apathy-to-mild-antipathy for Apple, but think it's pretty abusive of these governments to attempt to charge them retroactively for taxes that they were dodging fair and square, and pretty dangerous and short-sighted for the general populace to so gleefully support these sort of violations of ex post facto.
Erm, they aren't charged retroactively. Retroactively implies that the law was changed and payments were backdated.
Apple is being asked to pay the amount of tax they were supposed to pay in the first place.
I think you need to spend a little time with the dictionary and learn what retroactive means.
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
"People like you piss me off to no end, because you MUST be actively "
And people like you piss everyone else off because you pay no federal income tax, you get so many benefits you're a net drain on the system, and you demand services because "it's your human right".
Guess what just because you breathe and take up space, there's nothing that's "owed" to you.
Your "rights" end when you require other people to pay for your "rights".
Apple is loudly, publicly denying its tax obligations around the world
That's a goddamned lie. Apple pays what they're legally required to pay. They have no duty to pay whatever amount SJWs or 4th Reich bureaucrats pull out of their asses.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Let all be reminded that Sam Biddle was the literary genius behind Gawker. This is like having a retired East German bureaucrat opine on Volkswagen's emission problem.
"engineers are very smart, but their job does not typically require much bravery"
Try saying that to Boisjoly, Snowden, or the GE Three.
... where the iPhone touched You.
Because you don't seem to understand the very basics of law.
Understand this: there is always ambiguity. Many people hate ambiguity, and for good reason. But it is impossible to be completely rid of it, because spoken and written language has ambiguity as one of its founding principles. It is impossible to draft laws such that all ambiguity is eliminated. God himself could not do it.
So, the "spirit of the law" doctrine is critical in any enterprise where interpretations of the lay vary (which is, for the most, every enterprise that involves lots of money).
There are different kinds of courage. Not all are of the "risking your life" variety. I'd say that risking your job on a decision requires courage. No, you're probably not going to die, but those who made the decision (including Tim Cook) could lose their jobs if Apple loses enough money over the decision.
Apple is now the new holder of the title "evil empire" that Microsoft relinquished...
Somehow I thought Google would beat them to the punch, but hey, what do I know...
I like to use Guatemala as an example. It's a relatively peaceful culture with a government that does basically nothing. And it sucks. If you have anything, you need to live in a bunker. MacDonalds is guarded by men with AKs. The water is not potable. The entire country is trashed. The sewage barely works. It's a libertarian paradice.
... because it's 2016, not 1934.
"Courage (also called bravery, bravado or valour) is the choice and willingness to confront agony, pain, danger, uncertainty or intimidation. .... [M]oral courage is the ability to act rightly in the face of popular opposition, shame, scandal, discouragement, or personal loss."
So Apple knows their decision to try to kill the headphone jack will cause agony, pain, danger, uncertainty, intimidation, and that they will have popular opposition, shame, scandal, discouragement, and (hopefully) (corporate) loss.
Is that really what they meant to say? Do they really think doing things like this is the right thing to do?
Leeches. The only reason they can set up shop in a country that can afford their stupid phones is because a lot of people (other people) ARE paying the taxes to keep civilisation running. I would say this might be a tipping point but the angry mob needs their electronic dummies.
..because the scathing replies and the fact they're now the laughingstock of the entire world show they had to have real "courage" to do this. What was that saying that equated courage with stupidity? Somehow, it seems to apply here in spades.
Therefore, by the (faulty) logic you're using, you're just a cow with a keyboard - osu-neko (2604)
Paying taxes to fund public schools is not courage.
Paying taxes despite the fact that public schools suck, paying for textbooks and private tutors to homeschool your child, forming new private schools and coops, realizing that there is no such thing as 'viewpoint free/independent' education and going the extra effort to pass down your cultural values and ideals to your children, paying double to send your kids to private colleges that actually teach rather than just weed out anyone that can't hack it....that's the start of courage.
These people are a plague on every discussion of important economic topics, on the whole Internet - they exist to spread denial and FUD, and shut down discussion, dragging it into the most trite black/white "free meerkats vs the state" nonsense.
When you see Libertarians infest a discussion and try to control it - particularly in large numbers, and suspiciously disproportionate voting/modding power - then you can bet your ass that discussion is very politically sensitive to the interests of the wealthy and finance industry.
We know that the main Libertarian backers, the Koch's, have been funding astroturfing in the past - and that the entire finance industry has a major motive for funding astroturfing on these issues - these fúckers are more dangerous/harmful to free discussion than any other group around, because they actively succeed in stifling discussion of extremely important economic issues, while attempting to corrupt and gain influence within the very governments they deride and work hand-in-hand with (Ireland became a corrupt tax haven through its government working in favour of people espousing Libertarian views - Ireland even had a fúcking Cato member as a head financial regulator! - that's the end goal for Libertarians, not eradication of government, but co-optation).
They are the first to fly the banner of 'free speech', and the first to try and suppress free speech through FUD and tactics aimed at controlling/blocking discussion.
You use the military, whether you want it or not. In the US that represents somewhere around 30-50% of your federal tax burden.
The U.S. spends 3.3% of GDP on the military (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... )
Federal spending represents about 18% of GDP (see http://www.usgovernmentspendin... )
So from these figures, military spending represents 3.3 / 18 = 18% of our federal tax burden.
That that is is that that that that is not is not.
Tax is mandatory, not voluntary, and as such payment is not an *obligation*.
On a more practical level, all that's happening here is that the EU is clamping down on tax competition within the EU. It's a cartel.
Please don't advertise articles by someone who openly advocates bullying nerds on a "News for nerds" websites.
Have to give a shout out to the Apple-Nauts. A Perfect 10 Derailment of the topic. Well done?
The EU just burns the money anyway, why pay taxes? To furter a small groups personal fortunes?
Unfortunately, there's a major complication.
The Directors of Apple are legally required to "always act in the best interests of the shareholders". This includes, among other things, maximising the profitability and returns of the company. Bear in mind that Apple and other major companies have activist investors like Carl Icahn who are entirely happy to aggressively go after Boards of Directors in attempts to influence them to do their bidding, or make efforts to get them booted off the boards of companies in which they invest.
It's by no means certain, but most companies have a charter in which they affirm their corporate manifesto is to look after 1) their shareholders; 2) their clients, and 3) their employees, in that order.
It is highly unlikely that such a charter would contain "4) the Government Agency charged with collecting Corporation Tax)"...
For the Directors, a failure to do *everything* they can to minimise the tax burden of the company they serve could easily result in a massively ugly shareholder lawsuit. I suspect [I certainly don't know, this is just supposition] that this is one of their prime motivators to act this way... Well, that and greed.
Remember, unless you give $$$MORE MONEY FOR CRONIES$$$$ you are a horrible company, Apple!
And you too, ordinary taxpayer! That money doesn't belong to you, pay up and give $$$MORE MONEY FOR CRONIES$$$$
I don't mind being scared.
I do mind paying taxes.
I am sick of these accusations against Apple made by completely ignorant people. Look, we may all agree that Apple isn't paying enough in taxes. That's a worthwhile debate to have. What you cannot say is that Apple is ignoring or breaking any current law. If you want Apple to pay more in taxes, then CHANGE THE LAW ! It really is just that simple. Until that day comes, stop saying Apple isn't paying enough. They are paying exactly and precisely what the LAW requires them to pay. Period. End of Story. Full Stop.
If you go to the store and find that the price of milk is $2 for 4 litres and many other stores charge $3.5 for four litres, is it right that the store selling you the $2 / four litres comes after you and demands that you pay up another $1.5 because they charged you so little initially? If a store (Ireland) has a sale on milk (Tech company taxes) and other stores (European Union) don't like that sale, is it fair that they steal you money for themselves (the EU)?