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Female Engineer Sues Tesla, Describing a Culture Of 'Pervasive Harassment' (theguardian.com)

A female engineer has spoken out about a discrimination lawsuit against Tesla that she filed last year. AJ Vandermeyden, 33, has accused Tesla of ignoring her claims of "pervasive harassment" and says she has suffered "mental distress" and "humiliation." From a report on The Guardian: Vandermeyden, 33, shared her story with the Guardian at a time when Silicon Valley is reeling from the explosive allegations of former Uber engineer Susan Fowler. Offering a rare public account of discrimination from a tech worker who remains employed at her company, Vandermeyden said her dedication to Tesla motivated her to advocate for fair treatment and reforms -- despite the serious risks she knows she faces for going public. "Until somebody stands up, nothing is going to change," she said in a recent interview, her first comments about a discrimination lawsuit she filed last year. "I'm an advocate of Tesla. I really do believe they are doing great things. That said, I can't turn a blind eye if there's something fundamentally wrong going on." Vandermeyden began at Tesla in 2013 and was eventually promoted to a manufacturing engineering position in the general assembly department, which consisted mostly of men and where she was paid less than male engineers whose work she directly took over, according to her complaint.

360 comments

  1. Huh? Harassment? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

    You mean "humanity"? There's 7 billion of us, that's not because men walk around with a rope around their balls and their cocks strapped into their buttcrack.

    Women then complain that men don't make the first move anymore.

    1. Re:Huh? Harassment? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Making the first move is fine, but you don't do it on the job nor do you make moves on people under you.

    2. Re:Huh? Harassment? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

      If they're under me, I already made my move!

      BAM!

    3. Re:Huh? Harassment? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Why not? If you're adults it shouldn't matter.

    4. Re:Huh? Harassment? by Oswald+McWeany · · Score: 2, Insightful

      >

      Women then complain that men don't make the first move anymore.

      I don't think women EVER wanted to be cat called and hollered at- and they still don't. Yes, you probably have to use more caution and common sense when asking someone out now-a-days, but this article has absolutely nothing to do with that. She wasn't complaining about being asked out.

      --
      "That's the way to do it" - Punch
    5. Re:Huh? Harassment? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Everybody who claims this sort of thing doesn't happen should read the AC I'm replying to.

    6. Re:Huh? Harassment? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yes, they did. This is just your PC re-education brainwashing talking. When middle-aged Québecoise housewives come back from their cheap all-inclusive trips to Cuba, they all gush about how "real men" hit on them aggressively over there.

      Try the same thing in Montreal? "RAPE CULTURE!!!!!!!!!"

    7. Re:Huh? Harassment? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There are many people in this world who are in happy relationships precisely from the job.
      Making the statement that you are making is pissing on the life happiness that many have gotten, and many will in the future,
      which would not happen if they followed the pseudo-intellectual opinions of a few self-absorbed ideologists on the Internet.
      Keep that bullshit lesson giving to yourself if you can't look people who actually found happiness in the eyes and tell them that they are wrong,
      without looking like an imbecile in the process.

      Dismissing a general act for the stupidity of a few, akin to asking for sex to be banned because some people rape or fail at it,
      is idiocracy at its finest. People asking to date someone is fine. It's when shit is being forced that it is a problem.

      The problem is also that we are being taught to abandon critical thinking when it comes to women. I want to hear both stories, i want to hear the
      statements from the onlookers even if it is anonymous, i want to see the cameras, i want to talk to the families of both parties and friends, their histories, and then
      i can start making judgments. I want to first KNOW the individuals, before judging what's true and what's bullshit. Something Feminism is rarely doing these days,
      as is the media.
      Till then, the story here is just an empty husk with lots of assumptions but none of the substance, constructed in a way to create ideological debates but never provide a spotlight on the truth or rational solutions.

    8. Re:Huh? Harassment? by HornWumpus · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yeah, they just accidently walk around with their tits half hanging out.

      Women _want_ to be pursued, but only by the one man they are sending 'fuck me' signals to, not the rest of you nerds. Cat called/hollered? Not usually, but sometimes definitely, especially when young and insecure.

      You realize that stick on perky nipples (to be stuck onto the outside of Bras) are a thing?

      Have you ever noticed the unique body language of women with nice big tits when frustrated? They stand on tiptoes then let themselves drop down onto their heels, usually with a verbal 'herrup'. To make their boobs jiggle and get what they want from nearby men.

      Women will absolutely complain about 'being asked out'. 'Be attractive, don't be unattractive': Is the key to not being charged with sexual harassment.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    9. Re:Huh? Harassment? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why not? If you're adults it shouldn't matter.

      so much ignorance in such a short sentence!

    10. Re:Huh? Harassment? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You must be old, because you know their tricks.

    11. Re:Huh? Harassment? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Agreed. Living in California. My wife is French. In her own words "most men here don't seem to have any balls" Its amazing how many guys are afraid to look at and try to interact with women (regardless if they are married or single); so many US men have been conditioned to be soft/nurturing types. And women have become conditioned to believe any male interaction is harassment. However, many women actually like guys who act like men and give women attention. Not talking about the attention from aggressive alpha-males who are macho and groping. Rather, guys who understand and appreciate that women are different than men and rejoice in the feminine side.

    12. Re: Huh? Harassment? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm retired now, but I lived by the phrase "never dip your pen in company ink".

    13. Re:Huh? Harassment? by Immerman · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Power imbalance.

      When one person wields authority over another, there is both a temptation to abuse that power, and a temptation on the part of the underling to acquiesce to "requests" from above to avoid retribution. Even if the boss genuinely has no intention of coercion, the underling can't know that for certain, so it's best to tread *very* carefully around such things, or better yet avoid them altogether.

      Because even if there is in fact mutual interest - it's going to be almost impossible to keep your professional and private lives separate. Especially when one relationship ends. How would you like your ex being in a position to fire you and tarnish your professional reputation? Or your lover being required to fire you for unrelated reasons? You're both going to have to possess near-superhuman reserves of levelheadedness and emotional compartmentalization for that not to get ugly fast.

      I mean sure, if you meet an underling/boss where things just "click" powerfully, maybe it's worth the risk. But if you're smart, you'll make transferring one of you to break the chain of command a very high priority, because it's quite likely to sour both your personal and professional relationship otherwise.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    14. Re:Huh? Harassment? by hey! · · Score: 1

      In the words of the famous de-motivational poster:

      Dysfunction: the only consistent feature of all your dissatisfying relationships is you.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    15. Re: Huh? Harassment? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

      DO KOT hire women. They are just not worth the trouble.

      That is the lesson these feminist are teaching us.

    16. Re:Huh? Harassment? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Please describe this "power imbalance" when a woman can simply say "sexual harassment" with little to no evidence and immediately the "suspect" can lose *his* job?

      Who has the power here?

    17. Re:Huh? Harassment? by Hylandr · · Score: 1

      And an entire company like Uber coming under fire for it.

      It's messed up man.

      --
      ~ People that think they are better than anyone else for any reason are the cause of all the strife in the world.
    18. Re:Huh? Harassment? by Immerman · · Score: 3, Interesting

      >Try the same thing in Montreal? "RAPE CULTURE!!!!!!!!!"

      Let's be clear here - *you* can't try the same thing. You don't have the skill.

      Those Cuban fellows have spent their whole lives, from long before puberty, learning how to flirt aggressively and attractively, while picking up the subtle cues that let them know when their attention isn't wanted so they can disengage gracefully and keep the door open for future possibilities. It's a dance to make the Tango look trivial in comparison, and they've been steeping in it their whole lives as a cultural pastime.

      Barring phenomenal good luck, any attempt by a socially awkward geek to do the same will probably end about as well as letting a cat fly a fighter jet. Even most "players", skilled by their own countries standards, are going to look like awkward teenagers in comparison. But those players will mostly be good enough to not get called out, because they've learned at least enough nonverbal communication to determine if a woman is open to him flirting with her before he's said two words.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    19. Re: Huh? Harassment? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Uber is going under ecause they are shady as shit. The Doxx reporters, ignore laws, screw over local governments, underpay people.

      Sexual harassment is just the icing on the cake.

    20. Re:Huh? Harassment? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Women _want_ to ...

      Next up ... you complaining loudly about stereotyping when someone starts a post with 'Men want to ...'

    21. Re:Huh? Harassment? by mrclevesque · · Score: 1

      "When middle-aged Québecoise housewives come back from their cheap all-inclusive trips to Cuba, they all gush about how "real men" hit on them aggressively over there"

      Women have explained to me it's obvious that these "real men" are simply looking for a way into Canada.

    22. Re:Huh? Harassment? by mrclevesque · · Score: 1

      "However, many women actually like guys who act like men and give women attention. Not talking about the attention from aggressive alpha-males who are macho and groping. Rather, guys who understand and appreciate that women are different than men and rejoice in the feminine side"

      Kind of but I'd be less categorical in general. The feminine side can also include being clearer about your interest in a specific individual and in each step along the way of a burgeoning relationship.

    23. Re:Huh? Harassment? by mi · · Score: 1

      Those Cuban fellows have spent their whole lives, from long before puberty, learning how to flirt aggressively and attractively, while picking up the subtle cues that let them know when their attention isn't wanted so they can disengage gracefully and keep the door open for future possibilities. It's a dance to make the Tango look trivial in comparison, and they've been steeping in it their whole lives as a cultural pastime.

      Whether the rest of us are able to do it as well as those phenomenal Cubans or not, it can not be illegal (nor even immoral) for us to try.

      Which, I believe, was the Anonymous OP's point.

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    24. Re:Huh? Harassment? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Its one thing if you're in a bar.

      Its another thing entirely when you're at work and its a coworker. Mutual respect should take priority as a matter of common sense.

    25. Re:Huh? Harassment? by Merk42 · · Score: 1

      So it's okay when a Cuban does it?
      We've gone from sexism to racism here.

    26. Re:Huh? Harassment? by Immerman · · Score: 1

      It occurs to me that one of the most important "tricks" should be made explicit:

      They're not flirting to get laid - they're flirting to make her feel good. Maybe they get laid as a result, probably not, that's a numbers game. The point though is that she left feeling good. Leave her feeling good about your encounter and she's not going to scream "rape culture". Maybe she'll even come back for more, and/or talk to her friends about you and they might come to see what was worth talking about.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    27. Re:Huh? Harassment? by Immerman · · Score: 2

      Overcompensation.

      Women have only even been able to vote in the US for just under a century. The pill (another major leap forward in women's autonomy) has been around for half that. We still don't have many women executives, etc. In terms of economic and political power in the US, men still unquestionably have a firm grip on the reigns, and institutional sexism is still a very real thing in most places, with things only slowly changing.

      It's going to be at least a few more generations before we really get this "gender equality" thing worked out, and it's going to be ugly in the meantime, with the pendulum swinging back and forth searching for a balance point, and breaking a lot of noses along the way.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    28. Re:Huh? Harassment? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ad-Hominem attacks are the liberals concession of defeat. The more names they call you, the greater your victory..

      Umm.. like Trump's incessant ad hominem attacks?? I thought those were because he's stupid.

    29. Re:Huh? Harassment? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      In these discussions on Slashdot, I feel like people manage to dance around the fact that sexual harassment only encompasses unwanted sexual advances, and are offended by the concept that women get to decide which sexual advances are wanted or not.

    30. Re:Huh? Harassment? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >>They're not flirting to get laid - they're flirting to make her feel good.

      Oh, bullshit. I've lived way too long here in the midst of latin culture (miami) to believe that most latin men aren't doing this for their own egos and to get laid. That said, the same is true of many NON-latin men.

      get your head out of your ass.

    31. Re:Huh? Harassment? by Immerman · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I agree.

      Just keep in mind that pretty much every woman out there has faced at least a few, possibly many, shady situations where she has had a legitimate reason to fear the possibility of real harm from a man, and that has skewed her perceptions. (Humans are prey animals, over-generalizing threats is what we do best)

      Make sure your attempt is done in consideration of that, and can't be taken as a threat, otherwise you're walking a fine line of with assault charges. And perhaps more importantly to you - shooting yourself in the foot before you even begin.

      Also, be a F-ing professional and don't shit where you work. Work relationships are usually a bad idea anyway. If you haven't already established a good rapport with a woman there, and genuinely think that she might be interested in more, then don't complicate both your lives by making unwelcome advances. And if you just can't resist the temptation, and she shoots you down, drop it. Trying to pressure someone into something they don't want is harassment, pure and simple.

      And for $deity's sake *definitely* don't get involved with anyone in your chain of command, the potential for abuse and complications are far too high.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    32. Re:Huh? Harassment? by rainmouse · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Please describe this "power imbalance" when a woman can simply say "sexual harassment" with little to no evidence and immediately the "suspect" can lose *his* job?

      Who has the power here?

      Citation needed.

    33. Re:Huh? Harassment? by Immerman · · Score: 3, Insightful

      No, it's okay when someone *competent* does it in a way that leaves everyone feeling good about the encounter.

      It's not harassment if the target enjoyed themselves both at the time and in reflection. Cuba just seems to have a very high percentage of really competent flirtation experts.

      Harassment comes in when you force your attention on someone against their will. Doesn't much matter if it's incompetent flirtation or intentional bullying - the effect on the target is the same.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    34. Re:Huh? Harassment? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm betting you don't get laid much...

    35. Re:Huh? Harassment? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Adria Richards. And this is not even sexual harassment, it's a feminist listening in to a private conversation between two people, all unrelated to her,
      and deciding to wage a crusade on Twitter to ruin lives.

      We frequently experience feminists ruining lives and those same feminists being denounced by other feminists for being crazy,
      but we never ever hear of feminists fixing the damage done by their own members of the collective. Never. There is no sense of responsibility in the movement,
      no sense of self-regulation, no sense of rationality. The victims of outrageous misconduct done in the name of feminist ideals are always brushed off and forgotten,
      while the perpetrators are denounced as "not true feminists" so that the brand itself can act as if it is "pure" and "untainted".
      Infallible, the word that always leads good causes into becoming nightmares whose only fix is complete destruction and re-branding.

    36. Re:Huh? Harassment? by mi · · Score: 1

      Make sure your attempt is done in consideration of that, and can't be taken as a threat, otherwise you're walking a fine line of with assault charges.

      Sure, sure. But all of this caution should not be necessary — unless you are really threatening. It should not be any easier ruin a man's reputation (and life) with sexual assault accusations, than it is to do the same with any other suspicions of criminality.

      And perhaps more importantly to you

      Let's not apply the conversation to the present company, shall we? I'm a happy father — of more than one child...

      Also, be a F-ing professional and don't shit where you work.

      Another strange prohibition. While I agree, that one should not attempt to court anyone below them in a corporate hierarchy (the rule which automatically bans courtship up the same ladder), approaching a colleague may be Ok.

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    37. Re:Huh? Harassment? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Women were voting in the US before the 19th amendment. And that amendment imposes no requirements for them to have that privilege. Nothing stops women from becoming executives except their lack of desire to do so. How do you define economic power? If it's purchasing power, that's far overwhelmingly women. And if you want to talk about institutional sexism, get rid of Title IX and its kangaroo court that just assumes men are just automatically rapists.

    38. Re:Huh? Harassment? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes they do. They just feign indignation. Those articles are coming from a rabid feminist.

    39. Re:Huh? Harassment? by bobbied · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Who has the power here?

      No no. Sexual harassment is a very specific kind of action and although it seems like the accuser has all the say about this, in most places I've worked there where clearly defined parameters necessary to establish that harassment actually took place. In order for it to be harassment it must be unwanted behavior that is either obviously harassing or behavior that continues AFTER it was communicated it was unwelcome.

      Asking a peer out on a date, once, is not harassment. Continuing to ask after being told to stop asking IS harassment. Giving complements on appearance or dress is not harassment, unless it's communicated that it's unwelcome. Telling off color jokes *might* be harassment if the joke is obviously inappropriate for the office, continuing to do so after somebody asks you to stop IS a problem.

      The biggest issue most folks have understanding this is with manager subordinate relationships. This is where things get dicey at times because the subordinate may not feel free to object. The smart manager stays clear of such entanglements and complications by making it a policy NOT to fraternize with the lower ranks. It is here where most of the serious mistakes and career ending events happen. Don't be stupid and don't give a chance for any false accusations to gain root by always having your guard up. Have "private" meetings in public places, offices with windows or don't close your door, make sure your office has windows and if you have an admin that they can observe what's happening in your office. DON'T socialize ALONE with your subordinate, but always make sure there is a group or other parties there. Also, if you catch wind of ANY inappropriate possibly harassing behavior among your subordinates, dig out the HR mandated training because it didn't take the first time and DEAL with the behavior BEFORE it gets out of hand. Project professional behavior and expect the same.

      It's not hard, just don't be stupid, keep it professional and if you are the boss, keep witnesses around when dealing with subordinates.

      If you do these things: 1. Keep things professional, 2. Stop any behavior when asked, 3. keep your interactions with subordinates appropriate and in public view, you won't have an issue when HR receives a complaint. If you DO have an issue and you where not caught being stupid, then you need to bail anyway because HR is messed up where you work.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    40. Re:Huh? Harassment? by Immerman · · Score: 3, Insightful

      >It should not be any easier ruin a man's reputation (and life) with sexual assault accusations, than it is to do the same with any other suspicions of criminality.

      I *absolutely* agree.
      But you have to also accept the fact that we live in a country where monsters like that Stanford rapist walk away scot-free even when caught in the act, and that rape is normally an incredibly tricky thing to prove. Barring actually being caught in the act, it will always be a he-said she-said charge.

      It's an ugly situation all around.

      We have a problem with two kinds of monsters
      Women who unjustly ruin men's lives with false accusations
      And men who unjustly ruin women's lives with rape

      We need to rid ourselves of both of them, and I don't see any easy answers. I think though, that the false accusations shall prove a far more tractable problem - if by nothing else than the growing ubiquity of video recorders. For rape though - we've got a very old cultural demon to face. There's an awful lot of folks like that monster's father, who just don't see why a boy's life should be ruined over "a few minutes fun".

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    41. Re: Huh? Harassment? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      His comment may be trolling but I have actually heard this same line from several female hiring managers.

    42. Re: Huh? Harassment? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      If anyone actually read the 'story', its a whole lot of personal drama and speculation. I hate to say it but women tend to be more sensitive. So coworkers laughing about something is interpreted as directed at them. Thier minds are not totally sane and it snowballs.

      If it was facts and not drama and speculation described, I would think it's possible. But as like uber, its a common theme of Me Me Me. And money. That's it.

    43. Re:Huh? Harassment? by amiga3D · · Score: 1

      The number one rule is don't shit where you eat. Even a dog doesn't shit where it eats.

    44. Re: Huh? Harassment? by cyber-vandal · · Score: 1

      By that light then why is there a problem with men trying to learn those skills via PUA teaching?

    45. Re: Huh? Harassment? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      'It's not harassment if the target enjoyed themselves both at the time and in reflection."

      Using that criteria I am a victim of serial harassment!!!! Hell I didn't enjoy your comments both at the time of reading and in reflection. Please cease, you've been warned and if you continue it makes you part of the problem!

    46. Re: Huh? Harassment? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just because some women were taught by their backward parents and society to find self worth in how sexually available men see them does not mean that all are likewise damaged nor that we should treat eachother in that manner.

    47. Re:Huh? Harassment? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    48. Re: Huh? Harassment? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is an easy, tried and true test. Just grab them by the pussy. If they are into it, then you are good to go.

    49. Re: Huh? Harassment? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Lol. Those "real men" seem to offer their sisters to fuck, according to several regular tourists I know.

    50. Re:Huh? Harassment? by dbIII · · Score: 2

      There's one of those playing out in the courts in Australia at the moment between the head of a broadcasting company and his former lover - be honest this time, who do you REALLY think lost their job. Like just about all of these cases in reality the person who started with the most power is the one who get to keep their job while the woman is painted as a whore. Sucks, and is that really what you'd want your daughter to go through? It's not about feminism in any way it's about people being treated unfairly.

    51. Re:Huh? Harassment? by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Sure, sure. But all of this caution should not be necessary — unless you are really threatening

      Readers you may think you are a weedy little guy but to a small lady who weighs what you could bench press a dozen times you are a threat. To larger ladies that you can outrun you are a threat. I didn't really pick up on that until I came to the city and noticed that many women were physically very weak from almost zero levels of exercise so that even a below average male was a physical threat to them. If you get in the face of a girl who has to rely on you being a nice guy for her safety that can really scare them until they get to know you. On the first shift I worked alone with one petite lady at one job she kept a large garden implement beside her desk for protection because she was scared of me on sight (we'd never spoken before that), and I was the shy skinny guy picked last at sports.

      Another strange prohibition

      No. It's called taking your work seriously instead of treating it like a playpen.

    52. Re:Huh? Harassment? by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Women who unjustly ruin men's lives with false accusations

      Since there's plenty of guys who haven't had their life ruined by real accusations until eventually the numbers piled up I think the false stuff has to filed under "too rare to matter" despite it being a staple of TV drama these days.
      Phil Spector had a lot of "false accusations", so did Bill Crosby, and it didn't slow down their careers until they crossed that extra line leaving a lot of undeniable evidence just like it hasn't slowed down a lot of others with a much lower profile.
      You can see it yourself if you work in a large place and think of all of the current executives who have a reputation due to being accused earlier, false or not, and still have their executive jobs.

    53. Re:Huh? Harassment? by jcr · · Score: 1

      There are many people in this world who are in happy relationships precisely from the job.

      Off the top of my head, I must know at least two dozen married couples who met at work, including my parents.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    54. Re:Huh? Harassment? by jcr · · Score: 1

      I don't think women EVER wanted to be cat called and hollered at- and they still don't.

      Are you sure about that?

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    55. Re:Huh? Harassment? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm telling you, Muchaco: those Canadian women are so fucking sex-starved by the PC faggots all around them at home that they come to Cuba and PAY for sex.

    56. Re:Huh? Harassment? by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      It can not be illegal (nor even immoral) for us to try.

      It isn't in general. It is however possible to be so phenomenally cack-handed than you do it in an illegal or immoral way. If you're so confused about it all that you can't see the difference, I suggest that for the sake of yourself and others you don't try until you figure it out. Given your .sig, I strongly suspect you won't figure it out.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    57. Re: Huh? Harassment? by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      By that light then why is there a problem with men trying to learn those skills via PUA teaching?

      PUA teaching has a few nuggets of gold buried in a mount of really nasty shit. It's generally better to leave the nasty shit out.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    58. Re: Huh? Harassment? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Organizations need to provide documentation have processes in place to handle allegations of sexual harassment and bullying in the work force. An allegation alone without proof should not result in disciplinary action.

    59. Re: Huh? Harassment? by VikingNation · · Score: 1

      I know several married couples that met at work and have a happy marriages. I do not believe that is a problem. All employees have the right to have a safe work environment free from intimidation, harassment, and discrimination. Supervisors and leaders have the responsibility of making sure the workforce is safe for all. This includes protecting potential victims of sexual harassment and those who are falsely accused. This also includes taking disciplinary action when it is required.

    60. Re: Huh? Harassment? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your variant of sexual activity is different from most, but the saying still works.

    61. Re: Huh? Harassment? by mrclevesque · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I guess your referring to Trump, but as a rule I don't see what's good about repulsing most women and being charged with sexual assault.

    62. Re:Huh? Harassment? by mrclevesque · · Score: 1

      I think your talking about what people call vacation sex with a no strings attached guarantee, they could pay for sex in Canada if they wanted to but a vacation is a vacation, and it's nice to hear that they're helping you raise your self-esteem.

    63. Re:Huh? Harassment? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We see the bullshit (and insultingly transparent) appeal-to-emotion in your comment, and judge you accordinly. GTFO with that shit.

    64. Re:Huh? Harassment? by ChoosyBeggar · · Score: 1

      How about the earlier story referenced in this one, where Susan Fowler received and awkward come-on by her manager, and was not satisfied with merely a "stern warning". What does she expect? That he be fired merely for asking if she's interested in a sexual relationship?

    65. Re:Huh? Harassment? by ChoosyBeggar · · Score: 1

      You may not think so, but they do. Hell, even the ultra-PC "liberated" modern-feminist women here in the SF Bay Area do. They love to complain about it, but when it stops, they realize how much they miss it. Case in point: Our group (men and women) went to Burning Man to form a feminist camp primarily for women. It even had a tent for women only, (especially women on their period,) no men allowed. Moreover, men were directed to never come on to the women, never give compliments about physical appearance, and to strongly avoid even looking at women's bodies.

      The men, wanting to prove themselves honorable and respectful, agreed. They followed all the directives the women had put before them. They maintained eye contact with the ladies, or looked up at the sky. Everyone shared in the work, with the men pitching in to help with cooking and cleaning, (though the men still handled most of the construction and mechanical work as well.) It truly was a "safe space" for women.

      There was only one problem: The women hated it. Within four days, the women revolted against themselves, demanding that the men resume looking at them, noticing them, admiring them, complimenting them, and chatting them up. Actually, in the end, it made for a lot of sexual tension being released in the final weekend.

    66. Re:Huh? Harassment? by Oswald+McWeany · · Score: 1

      . Within four days, the women revolted against themselves, demanding that the men resume looking at them, noticing them, admiring them, complimenting them, and chatting them up. Actually, in the end, it made for a lot of sexual tension being released in the final weekend.

      There's a HUUUUUUUUUGGGGGGEEEEEEE difference between complimenting women, chatting them up, etc and Cat-calling and Hollering.

      HUUUUUUUUUUUUGE difference. The fact that so many people replied saying "women miss it when men stop complimenting them" shows exactly what the problem is. Women like to be noticed and appreciated- they don't like to be Hollered at (for the most part). They like respectful "hitting on them" rather than "hey meat come here and do me" type approaches.

      --
      "That's the way to do it" - Punch
    67. Re:Huh? Harassment? by david_thornley · · Score: 2

      If I were a manager in my company, and hit on a woman working for me on her first day, I'd expect to be in deep trouble. There are three things that may constitute sexual harassment, and making employment decisions contingent on sexual favors is one of them. Hitting on a subordinate is likely enough to trigger that, even if there is no explicit threat or promise. A manager who harasses an employee is a liability for their employer, and propositioning a new employee seems like a reasonable firing offense to me.

      In the case you're talking about, the woman went to HR, which is a reasonable response. HR said she should expect retaliation, and lied to her by claiming it was a first offense. That's also probably illegal.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    68. Re:Huh? Harassment? by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      It may be that Cubans are better at it. The Cubans were also probably not in positions of power over the tourists, and likely backed off when told to.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    69. Re:Huh? Harassment? by Demena · · Score: 1

      Have you noticed the inflatable ones? First laughed at that in Brunner's "Stand on Zanzibar" and now it is real. Advertising slogan: "Watch his ego shrivel as your nipples deflate"....

    70. Re:Huh? Harassment? by stealth_finger · · Score: 1

      My dog eats its own shit though.

      --
      Wanna buy a shirt?
      https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
    71. Re:Huh? Harassment? by guises · · Score: 1

      That's also probably illegal.

      There are laws against HR lying to employees? What? Isn't that basically their whole job? I doubt that there are many laws about companies lying to employees, unless it involves compensation or represents a safety violation.

    72. Re:Huh? Harassment? by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      However, dogs eat cat shit...not exactly the example I would follow.

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
    73. Re:Huh? Harassment? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      DON'T socialize ALONE with your subordinate, but always make sure there is a group or other parties there.

      THIS.

      This is absolute critical. Never ignore orgy potential.

  2. Why isn't Uber being sued? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Why isn't Susan Fowler suing Uber? Much like with this incident at Tesla (ex-SpaceX employee here btw, and this comes as no surprise), there is a shitton of evidence, and nothing being done about it. I can't wait for this fucking bro bubble to burst.

    1. Re:Why isn't Uber being sued? by Tailhook · · Score: 4, Insightful

      there is a shitton of evidence

      Blog posts are not evidence. If you are aware of any actual evidence point it out.

      --
      Maw! Fire up the karma burner!
    2. Re:Why isn't Uber being sued? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you're gonna demand proof all the time, why not tell these poor women how they're supposed to gather said proof. Hide cameras and audio recorders on their persons at all times? Isn't recording conversations without both party's consent illegal?

      Spend 30 years being subtlety, constantly, subconsciously (on both sides!) told by society that your purpose is to be ogled, and then come back and tell me that you are not frustrated with how pervasive and draconian it feels just trying to exist if getting by on your looks is NOT how you want to live...

    3. Re:Why isn't Uber being sued? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      a) a lot of employment agreements have arbitration clauses and b) even if hers didn't, a lot of legal claims are settled long before they get to a lawsuit. her lawyer sends the company a letter and the company looks into it. if the claim has merit they settle quickly.

    4. Re:Why isn't Uber being sued? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you mean other than the saved e-mails and screenshots she says she has?

    5. Re:Why isn't Uber being sued? by TangoMargarine · · Score: 4, Funny

      she says she has

      Does she or doesn't she have them? I can say I have a pet unicorn in my back yard, too.

      (It's a double-twist since I have neither a unicorn nor, in fact, a back yard.)

      --
      Unity? Screw that: XFCE. Slashdot Beta? Screw that: SoylentNews. Australis? Screw that: Pale Moon. UX developers DIAF
    6. Re:Why isn't Uber being sued? by Theaetetus · · Score: 1

      there is a shitton of evidence

      Blog posts are not evidence. If you are aware of any actual evidence point it out.

      Sure, they are. They're rebuttable evidence, and she can be cross-examined about them, but they're certainly evidence.

    7. Re:Why isn't Uber being sued? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well you sure know your mosts...

    8. Re:Why isn't Uber being sued? by hey! · · Score: 2

      Well, I don't know about the amount of evidence adding up to a proverbial shitton, but let's suppose for sake of argument Folwer's accusations are true. It doesn't automatically follow that she'd want to or ought to sue.

      On the other hand suppose she is fabricating this story. It doesn't necessarily follow that she'd want to sue either, for obvious reasons.

      CONCLUSION: Fowler not suing Uber is not evidence of anything one way or the other, because you can start with either assumption and concoct perfectly plausible explanations for her not wanting to. You have to decide whether you believe her based on other evidence.

      Now for the record I find Fowler's accusations credible, because they're consistent (a) with what I've seen in dysfunctional organizations and (b) what I've heard about Uber. That said, that's not really conclusive. But if I were considering employment with Uber, I'd be very, very cautious, even though I'm not a woman. A place that tolerates one kind of mistreatment against one kind of employee isn't a good place to work, even if you're not that kind of employee.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    9. Re:Why isn't Uber being sued? by meta-monkey · · Score: 2

      In Fowler's case I would expect she'd be able to get the testimony of the other women who reported the manger who harassed her. The big problem there was Uber HR saying "well it's his first offense there's nothing we can do" but many women told Fowler they had also reported him.

      --
      We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
    10. Re: Why isn't Uber being sued? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We will not hire. You have made yourselves a severe financial risk. Its called self elimination. Looser feminist. Feminist = looser.

    11. Re:Why isn't Uber being sued? by Tailhook · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If you're gonna demand proof all the time

      Yep, pretty much. Proof or fuck off. The tyranny you'd inflict without due process is unacceptable. And if you either can't be bothered to capture the necessary proof or the facts are too subtle to detect then I'm not interested in your plight.

      if getting by on your looks is NOT how you want to live

      Lots of unattractive women that can't rely on their looks are richer than me. They get by just fine.

      And for the record, zero evidence surfaced in this thread. Susan Fowler made an evidence free blog post. The rest is Internet sperg. At least Vandermeyden filed suit; her claims will be tested.

      ....being subtlety, constantly, subconsciously (on both sides!) told by society that your purpose is to be ogled, and then come back and tell me that you are not frustrated with how pervasive and draconian it feels....

      Do you know what paradise is? It's when you're forced to invent new problems because all of your actual problems have been solved.

      --
      Maw! Fire up the karma burner!
    12. Re: Why isn't Uber being sued? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good grief, can the trolls not be taught to spell? Or is it a condition of trolldom that poor grammar and spelling be used at all costs?

      'Loser' is spelled with ONE "o," not two. With two, it is pronounced 'loose-er.;

      Sigh

    13. Re:Why isn't Uber being sued? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You know what the difference is between a police investigator and a bunch of Twitter/blogger retards on the Internet or a bunch of fake news "journalists"?
      The Twitter/blogger retards and fake news journalists call it a "poor woman" from the get-go and attach their ideological bias and socio-political diarrhea to a case because to them (you) it is not about investigating as much as it is about preaching shallow politics.

      A police investigator:
      - Talks with the two parties in focus, analyzes the body language and the sentences being issued from their mouths.
      - Talks with their parents doing the same, to ascertain more about the personalities and histories of the parties.
      - Talks with their friends, to ascertain the above aforementioned.
      - Gets help from a psychologist to analyze the parties and break through their facades.
      - Goes through their personal histories, from kid to now, Internet socializing and accounts and school-life, seeking more shit to establish a correct picture of the individual.
      - Compares the ambitions of parties and whether they conflict with accusations.
      - Finds any contradictions from all the aforementioned.
      - Seeks video or sound recordings if they exist, and uses them to analyze body language and interaction between the parties in focus.
      - Ask the question why a woman would bring up suits against a whole company instead of individuals first and whether there is something weird about this.

      And after many more hoops and jumps to actually get to fucking KNOW the individuals in the investigation/lawsuit and how their brains work, THEN there is a sum of information that can be considered evidence to establish whether it is a "poor woman" who is a real victim, or a fraudulent woman who is speaking lies, or something more complex.
      There is no gender, there is no social justice, there is none of your stupid shallow feminist bullshit where you spew random statistics without mental capacity to actually put the parties in front of you into the appropriate spots on the actual statistics.
      There is only a shitload of investigation and research tools.

      And that time invested by individuals into INVESTIGATING AND GETTING TO KNOW THE PEOPLE INVOLVED IN A SCANDAL, is the difference between
      investigators and online Internet warrior dumbfucks.

    14. Re:Why isn't Uber being sued? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No the first fifteen years they are just getting prepped for it. "Look at the pretty princess" "You should wear dresses and play with dolls instead of Lego." "Your favorite color is pink." "Don't you want to be a ballerina?"

    15. Re:Why isn't Uber being sued? by avandesande · · Score: 1

      Just reading through the lines of the article, it sounds like she didn't even report any of the sexual harassment incidents.

      --
      love is just extroverted narcissism
    16. Re:Why isn't Uber being sued? by interkin3tic · · Score: 0

      Does she or doesn't she have them? I can say I have a pet unicorn in my back yard, too.

      No one is going to sue you for slander for saying you have a pet unicorn. Douchebags often do if you shame them publicly.

      Astonishingly, this can happen even if the accusations are true. Because you see, they're often not nice people. I know suggesting that our legal system won't always function perfectly to protect the victims and punish the bad guys will come as quite a shock to the people of slashdot, but it's true.

      Finally, it's possible that she's not interested in posting the evidence that the guy she didn't name (again: suing) because there's not much advantage in doing so. Slashdotters and other dudes online would be slightly more inclined to believe her, and all the benefits that confers, but maybe she doesn't care to prove her case to you?

    17. Re:Why isn't Uber being sued? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Isn't recording conversations without both party's consent illegal?

      Not in any sane state that isn't corrupt as all hell like California, Florida, and Chicago.

    18. Re: Why isn't Uber being sued? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How do you know he wasn't talking about their vaginal grips? Feminists should do their special exercises.

    19. Re:Why isn't Uber being sued? by TangoMargarine · · Score: 1

      Just pointing out that responding to "where's the evidence" with "oh we have evidence but you can't see it" really doesn't advance the conversation at all.

      Could do without the snark, too, Sparky.

      --
      Unity? Screw that: XFCE. Slashdot Beta? Screw that: SoylentNews. Australis? Screw that: Pale Moon. UX developers DIAF
    20. Re:Why isn't Uber being sued? by rainmouse · · Score: 1

      there is a shitton of evidence

      Blog posts are not evidence. If you are aware of any actual evidence point it out.

      Evidence on individual cases? I don't know, but it's really easy to believe when you just scroll up and read the AC comments here, denying it all with spite and bile, ironically undermining their own arguments. It would be funny if only the hate filled bilge wasn't so sad.

    21. Re:Why isn't Uber being sued? by amiga3D · · Score: 1

      Only recording a conversation you are not party to is illegal. If someone is trying to coerce you a recording is exactly what you need to do. It's trivial now to wire yourself for sound. I think it's wrong to take one persons word to destroy someone's career. If there is actual evidence I think the fucker should be blacklisted so he never manages anyone again.

    22. Re:Why isn't Uber being sued? by amiga3D · · Score: 2

      It depends on the environment. In a place with very few women the likelihood of ugly women getting hit on rises exponentially. Everything is relative. Beauty is after all, in the eye of the beholder. Typically there are always going to be some creepy bosses that think for some reason they have a right to expect favors from women that work for them. These guys should be removed for the good of everyone including the company. I really do not understand why a company is willing to expose themselves to the expense of litigation and the humiliation of being publicly outed as a misogynistic organization. All to allow some perv to grope and harass his employees.

    23. Re:Why isn't Uber being sued? by jandersen · · Score: 2

      And thus the posturing and dick-waving continues, on and on ad nauseam.

      Can I invite everybody to take a step back from the namecalling and the petty squabbling over insignificant details? I think, if we look at it calmly, we will probably find that there is definitely a certain culture of bias against women in science and technology; this is not surprising - it was not all that long ago, when women were expected to stay at home and do "female things", and the men were supposed to go to work and make all the money a family needed. I remember feeling vaguely ashamed that my mother had to have a job; and there is still a lot of than hanging over in the background - I think it is clearly visible.

      But that's not to say that there aren't any women who hide behind complaints about misogyny, when it is actually just that they don't quite have what it takes - of course there are some. But given the historical background, I think we should always be willing to consider the possibility that the complaints are based on reality. After all, there are far fewer women in certain jobs than there ought to be, when you take into account the number of women with the skills and the talents that are available - which means that there is a lot of talentes that are wasted, in a time when we hear about skills shortages; that doesn't make sense, I think.

      The other point I want to make is that we, as males and engineers, should make the effort to take a look at ourselves. Most of us were the nerdy kid at school and were not part of the wider, social context that should have taught us the skills and mindset that go with relating well to the other sex, among other things, and we have taken it with us into adult life. Thus there is an above average risk that we don't have all the tools to judge whether complaints about misogyny are real or not - that should inspire a bit of humility in us, so we don't just sweep them off the table. Personally, as a nerd, there are things that I am absolutely brilliant at, but if I have to make smalltalk to a sales person, for example, I absolutely stink; I just don't have the skill. This is my failing, it isn't because the man or woman I talk to is an idiot. But, being a skill, it is something that can be learned - and mindsets are changeable too.

    24. Re:Why isn't Uber being sued? by michelcolman · · Score: 1

      Completely agree. Apparently Tesla promoted her into engineering roles on her request even though she had absolutely no engineering background, and they hired a neutral third party, EMC2Law, to investigate her claims. They determined the claims were unsubstantiated.

      This may be another one of those "Hi, AJ, nice outfit" – "OMG he's hitting on me, I'm going to call my lawyer" kind of situations. And guess what, you may get paid less if you don't have the associated degrees. EMC2Law must have looked into this as it's one of the easiest things to check, and they didn't find anything wrong.

    25. Re:Why isn't Uber being sued? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Whenever I come by a construction site

      http://nwlc.org/resources/wome...

      or happen to see the waste collection crew doing their rounds

      http://www.charlotteobserver.c...

      or when I see combat units deployed to war zones

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      I wonder where all those qualified women are. Must be that damn patriarchy suppressing them.

      Yes, in fact, it is. The prohibition on women in combat roles was only lifted in 2013 in principle, and has still yet to be fully implemented. There is pervasive sexism in the garbage collection and the construction trades where women are sexually harrassed, discriminated against, and generally chased away. There are plenty of reports and lawsuits alleging just this. Combat roles were off-limits to women until recently, specifically and explicitly because a bunch of old guys in power (sort of the definition of the "patriarchy", innit?) said that women weren't capable of hacking it in the role.

      Didn't think so. Do you know how many male secretaries I have encountered in close to a decade at university? Take a guess.

      So your complaint is that more men are not going into low-prestige, low-pay careers?

      But mysteriously the focus lies almost exclusively on getting a few more women into the tiny tip.

      Because the "few women" in the "tiny tip" have a disproportionately large impact as role models, taste makers, influencers, and policy makers. We don't generally care what a bunch of random econ101 students think about Federal Reserve policies, but we sure as hell take notice when a couple Nobel prize winning Economists speak up about those same policies. The high-prestige, high-pay, high-visibility jobs are important for that reason.

      We need a fairer gender distribution throughout the whole job pyramid.

      So because somebody hasn't built a program you think is necessary, all programs that focus on PARTS of the problem you've identified are useless and harmful? Why don't you go start a group focused on getting more men into literature, Jewish History, or pedagogics, and then you can stop bitching about how there are some programs focusing on getting more women into construction or solid waste trades? Seriously - this notion that the only solution you'll accept is one which addresses all inequality throughout society is ridiculous. Nobody has the bandwidth to fix all of those problems simultaneously - it requires a concerted effort from many different organizations: for instance, there are organizations aimed at increasing male participation in nursing and primary education. You could start a similar organization for an area where men are underrepresented that's near and dear to your heart, too. Much like women have done for areas of the workforce they understand and work in.

    26. Re:Why isn't Uber being sued? by interkin3tic · · Score: 0

      I'm sorry if the snark hurt your feelings, snowflake. It's a bit interesting that you can dish it out but not take it. I guess I should be aware by now that many slashdotters are of the opinion that mean sarcastic statements should be directed at women saying they were treated unfairly, never dudes online.

      As far as advancing the conversation, demanding evidence in each specific case before... I dunno what you think slashdot is going to do if we're convinced... doesn't either. It's a catch 22. Dudebros online don't believe each new accusation of sexual harassment despite the mountain of previous examples UNTIL evidence is presented. Knowing full well that presenting such evidence publicly will earn the victim a lawsuit.

      To me, that's doing your absolute best to end the conversation about how to force the tech industry to cut the fucking frat bro shit.

    27. Re:Why isn't Uber being sued? by Demena · · Score: 1

      An indépendant body determine that there was no case to answer. Is pointing that out hate and bile? Oh, and whenever I have replaced someone I always started off on less than they did (male or female) as I simply did not have the same experience. That seldom lasted past the first review. But to expect more than the last incumbent? Unless you are better experienced or better qualified then that is an unrealistic expectation.

    28. Re: Why isn't Uber being sued? by stealth_finger · · Score: 1

      Looser feminist. Feminist = looser.

      At least most of them can spell, or are you implying something else?

      --
      Wanna buy a shirt?
      https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
    29. Re:Why isn't Uber being sued? by rainmouse · · Score: 1

      Apologies but my comment was badly phrased.
      What I meant was evidence on individual cases, I had no input but on the overall topic of a Culture Of 'Pervasive Harassment', the sheer number of awful comments (compared to other stories here) seems to strongly indicate there is one.

    30. Re:Why isn't Uber being sued? by Demena · · Score: 1

      Good god, most of the guys posting here are or have been victims of pervasive harassment. They are geeks.

      Maybe some just want to see facts not fantasies and flames. We have yet to see any shred evidence.

      You are presuming the unlikely case that her claims are accurate just because she made them. That is foolish.

    31. Re:Why isn't Uber being sued? by rainmouse · · Score: 1

      You are presuming the unlikely case that her claims are accurate just because she made them. That is foolish.

      Nope, let me say again that on individual cases such as this, I have no input.
      I am talking about the Culture Of 'Pervasive Harassment' being proudly displayed in the comments on this thread.

    32. Re:Why isn't Uber being sued? by Demena · · Score: 1

      The harassment of geeks? Precisely who is being harassed?

      Right now I see you being one of those causing a feeling of pervasive harassment.

  3. Shop mentality vs office mentality by TWX · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'm not exactly surprised. In most cases where I see the office/design part interface with the shop/implementation part there is the potential for this kind of friction. Even in cases where harrassment is not of a sexual nature, it's common for simple vulgarity to creep in even if just as a reaction to the minor cuts and body wear and tear when working and the need for a certain amount of toughness in order to do the job.

    Don't know enough about the salary aspect. She well might be underpaid becase of sexism, or she might have been brought in to do the job because they wanted someone that cost less in that role, and they didn't feel that the role justified the salary they previously paid.

    --
    Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    1. Re:Shop mentality vs office mentality by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Swearing is not harrasment unless it's specifically directed at someone for no reason.

    2. Re:Shop mentality vs office mentality by msauve · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "Don't know enough about the salary aspect. She well might be underpaid becase"...

      This could be as simple and common as the person she replaced had been in that job a while, advanced in it (including pay raises), and was now moving to an even more advanced job. She, OTOH, was new to that position, so might be expected to enter at the low end of the pay scale for it.

      --
      "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
    3. Re:Shop mentality vs office mentality by TWX · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Absolutely.

      The only real metric is comparing salary scale across multiple people in the same position or with the same effective job duties. If someone's role is unique then it is difficult to gauge whether or not salary is fair. If there was only one ME in this type of capacity, and a previous staff member left for a new one to be brought in then it's hard to demonstrate any particular reason for differences.

      I remember Dad talking about one at his work when he was getting close to retirement- they decided to replace technical managers as they retired with non-technical managers. The technical managers came up through the technical working side of the shop and could essentially do all of the major jobs in addition to managing, and their pay was essentially the senior technical person's plus a reasonable bump up for their managerial duties. Eventually it was determined that they spent more time managing than they did directly touching technical matters, so as they retired or otherwise left they were replaced with nontechnical managers. This theoretically resulted in a cost-savings as the new managers probably made half to two-thirds the salary of the senior non-management tech staff, but caused problems when those managers could not themselves offer technical solutions when stressful periods required them to work harder, and it also pissed off technical staff by depriving them of a wrung on the org-chart. In the end I think they had to switch back to technical managers as someone finally realized that underlying understanding was necessary in order for the managers to make good decisions. Only took half a decade...

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    4. Re:Shop mentality vs office mentality by TWX · · Score: 2

      I don't think my HR department would agree with you. Vulgar words that relate to human anatomy, even when not directed at anyone, would probably be grounds for action if someone that heard them chose to complain.

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    5. Re:Shop mentality vs office mentality by Rei · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The auto industry in general is terrible for women. I once ran a small console software supplier for the auto industry. I think my attitude toward the industry is best summed up by the time when (at a meeting with major figures of a major auto maker) my sales rep privately informed me that they're skipping the third step of how they usually make deals, on account of me. The first step being discussing the project over a ridiculous-priced dinner. The second step being discussing it at the bar. The third step - skipped - being discussing it at a strip club.

      I had previously heard rumours of stuff like this, such as a HR rep at a startup automaker complaining to me that their sales rep was submitting strip club receipts for reimbursement as business expenses. But I got to see the culture firsthand.

      So when I hear about this sort of stuff at Tesla, I'm not surprised. Sad - I'd like to hope that they'd have a different culture, since they're trying to make a different kind of car - but not surprised.

      --
      I'll never forget the last thing grandma said to me before she died: "What are you doing in here with that knife?!?"
    6. Re:Shop mentality vs office mentality by Archfeld · · Score: 5, Informative

      I was working in a print shop many years ago, and as far as I was aware there were only 2 of us in the area, both guys, and we were telling blond jokes. An hour or so later my companion and I were summoned to the department directors office and told that we had been the subject of a sexual harassment complaint for telling inappropriate joke at work. A women had let herself in the back door and was literally stealing special forms paper and had overheard us telling the jokes and complained to management. We, both guys were forced to take a sexual harassment education class and issue a formal apology to a woman who was then fired for stealing supplies. The bottom line is it is not how you intend the joke or to whom you are directing it to, but how anyone who hears it interprets it, whether you intended them to hear it or not.

      --
      errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
    7. Re:Shop mentality vs office mentality by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      I call bullshit. Have you ever tried to get a receipt from a stripper while sitting in gyno row? It's impossible, I know.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    8. Re:Shop mentality vs office mentality by Rogue974 · · Score: 1

      Replying to AC, so kind of pointless, but what you are saying in 100% false.

      I don't swear and find it offensive so I have been around the block on this a few times. Swearing is a gray area of when it is and when it isn't harassment.

      Swearing using human anatomy terms is pretty much always harassment if someone complains, no questions asked, first offense is still an offense

      Other swearing is based on the person you are talking to or even in the area, but as it is such a grey area, first offense is pretty much a freebee for the swearer. If someone who takes offense to it tells you that they find that language offensive and you do it after they have informed you, you are harassing them. Most people will follow the conversation up with a discussion with HR so HR knows you told them to clean it up and HR will let you know, that person is a snow flake, don't swear when they are around. This applies if you are swearing at them or they just happen to be in the area. Usually just in the area HR will tell the person they are being too extreme but if the HR person wants to follow the letter of the law and be exact, they can say you are in trouble.

      Like I said, I don't swear and find it offensive but I am not so unrealistic or such a snowflake that I run to HR every time I hear and F-bomb. If someone is up in my face yelling and scream (which is harassment as well) and they start dropping swear words that is when I bring it up and get the person to back off and address the issue. If they continue to do it, then HR is getting involved. Despite rampant swearing in the work place, I have only brought it up to the person or to HR a couple of times and I paid attention to the law so I knew if I was standing on solid ground or not. HR agreed with my interpretation of the law and backed me.

      I do know others who have taken it to any swearing at all for any reason and they will pull you into HR and HR backs them up because swearing can be constituted as harassment. Those individuals though will tell you, tell HR and then HR backs them.

    9. Re:Shop mentality vs office mentality by Zeromous · · Score: 2

      Receipt for the drinks you fucking idiot.

      --
      ---Up Up Down Down Left Right Left Right B A START
    10. Re:Shop mentality vs office mentality by TWX · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I think they subjected you two to the sexual harassment classes so that they would have latitude to fire her.

      My workplace can be very uptight and on first offenses that don't involve physical contact they usually just leave it with a warning. It sounds like they figured they would have to play rules-lawyer all of the way around in order to preclude her from having grounds to complain for being fired when she was doing what she wasn't supposed to be doing.

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    11. Re:Shop mentality vs office mentality by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      So... you're offended because they DIDN'T go to a strip club???

    12. Re:Shop mentality vs office mentality by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Drinks are a legit business expense. Why shouldn't I expense the drinks when I take a client out?

      We generally take clients where they want to go. Titty bar or super fancy restaurant, we bill it all back to their employers anyhow (plus 20% for the accounting costs).

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    13. Re:Shop mentality vs office mentality by Kartu · · Score: 1

      I work in automotive industry and I call bullshit.

    14. Re:Shop mentality vs office mentality by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I say whatever the fuck I want because I own my entire company and people can quit if they don't like it. That being said, I never hire someone that is so thin-skinned that they can't handle my mouth in the first place and I do restrain what I say somewhat when I'm in the presence of people that work for me. Sexual harassment doesn't tend to result in sex so I don't understand why anyone does it...unless we're using bullshit feminist definitions for "harassment" which are ultra-flexible and change depending on how hot the man involved is and how the woman happens to feel on that second of the day. Asking someone out for coffee isn't sexual harassment; treating it as harassment is a form of harassment on its own.

    15. Re:Shop mentality vs office mentality by TWX · · Score: 2

      I call bullshit. Have you ever tried to get a receipt from a stripper while sitting in gyno row? It's impossible, I know.

      "Well you see, I ran my card through the slot presented to me, but the printer must've been broken..."

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    16. Re:Shop mentality vs office mentality by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      It's not "anyone" who hears it. It's legally what a reasonable person, as determined by the court, would think. It's what the company decides is the rule.

      If someone is being over sensitive that is their problem. There has to be an agreed standard of behaviour to set a benchmark to measure the thickness of their skin by.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    17. Re:Shop mentality vs office mentality by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Drinks are a legit business expense. Why shouldn't I expense the drinks when I take a client out?

      If that's your takeaway from this thread, then you have grossly missed the point.

    18. Re:Shop mentality vs office mentality by HornWumpus · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The only point I see: Some people don't like that others might go for entertainment they don't like, especially on business trips. Want to have veto power over client entertainment they are not even present for.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    19. Re:Shop mentality vs office mentality by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      They really should make a card reader/labia piercing combo unit. It could vibrate to indicate transaction confirmation. Perhaps with a chip reader included.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    20. Re:Shop mentality vs office mentality by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Men like boobs. News at 11. it's interesting how you think them NOT doing something because they figure it'd make you uncomfortable is a sign of an industry disliking what's between your legs. Perpetual victimhood.

    21. Re:Shop mentality vs office mentality by Rei · · Score: 1

      When was the last time you've met with top executives as an OEM to discuss a purchase?

      Call BS all you want. But that's the way it actually is.

      --
      I'll never forget the last thing grandma said to me before she died: "What are you doing in here with that knife?!?"
    22. Re:Shop mentality vs office mentality by Dread_ed · · Score: 1

      So a beta told you that you get special treatment because you are female. In the process he outs every other male at the company as a sexist pig.

      I bet he also told you he is a feminist. Yeah, he was just trying to make all of the other males look bad so he could bang you.

      --
      When the only tool you have is a claw hammer every problem starts to look like the back of someone's skull.
    23. Re:Shop mentality vs office mentality by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fuck you.

    24. Re: Shop mentality vs office mentality by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not the original ac but fuck you pussy

    25. Re:Shop mentality vs office mentality by cas2000 · · Score: 1

      Drinks are a legit business expense. Why shouldn't I expense the drinks when I take a client out?

      A better question is why the fuck should you get away with that?

      If you or your company want to bribe the employees of potential customers or suppliers (i.e. other companies) with fancy meals, booze-ups and titty bars then you should fucking pay for your bribes yourselves, and not expect taxpayers to subsidise it by writing it off as a "legitimate business expense".

    26. Re:Shop mentality vs office mentality by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wait, what the cunt?

      I thought America had free speech? You could never be fired for shouting obscenities in the workshop or in the office in New Zealand.

    27. Re:Shop mentality vs office mentality by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree, it was rude of them to skip the typical third step. What if you wanted to go to the strip club?

    28. Re:Shop mentality vs office mentality by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "I have only brought it up to the person or to HR a couple of times"

      You and anyone else who has a habit of bringing ANYTHING up to HR is the problem not the solution. You are the type who create a hostile workplace where everyone has to tip toe around, save all their communications for self-defense, and inform on their co-workers. There is a time for bringing something up to HR, if you think you've found that time more than once or twice in a decade you are personally responsible for creating a hostile workplace for everyone... unfortunately the hostile workplace you create while worse than sexual harassment and certainly profanity isn't one people can complain to HR about.

    29. Re:Shop mentality vs office mentality by Enigma2175 · · Score: 1

      So she basically turned herself in for stealing. With that kind of stupidity no wonder she was offended by blonde jokes. - they hit too close to home.

      --

      Enigma

    30. Re:Shop mentality vs office mentality by rtb61 · · Score: 1

      Really honestly why is fuck worse than sexual intecourse, why is cunt worse than vagina and why is cock worse than penis, honestly in reality, why, just why. Is it because some arse holes are control freaks and want to control all those around them and making arbitrary distinctions like that enable them to do so. Hell slashdot would not even let me write http://www.dictionary.com/brow..., fuck off yah septic tank wowsers (yeah you will have to find the link yourself because arse holes).

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    31. Re:Shop mentality vs office mentality by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Some times the pay inequality is simply because we cant get rid of the person. I have two employees, the woman is paid much less than the man is. Problem is we can't fire the man because he's the only one that speaks that particular language. He's lazy and never does his work on time, never reports anything.

      It has nothing to do with sexism, but if viewed from the other angle it's easy to be construed as that.

    32. Re:Shop mentality vs office mentality by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      whats wrong with strip joints?

    33. Re:Shop mentality vs office mentality by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Didn't read the article. But in many cases women are paid less than men simply because men are more likely to negotiate their salaries. If she didn't negotiate her salary and man who used to have her job did that would very likely be the difference in pay. Father make sure your daughters learn to negotiate their salaries.

    34. Re:Shop mentality vs office mentality by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      If domain knowledge isn't needed, perhaps their role is just 'admin support' with a fancy name.

      That's what a lot of management positions are. Their job is to ensure that the people working for them have the resources they need, that they understand externally imposed deadlines (or have a mechanism for communicating that some deadlines are unachievable before anything important depends on them), and ensuring that more senior managers don't get in the way of your team's way. The problem is the perception that anything with 'manager' in it is a senior position.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    35. Re:Shop mentality vs office mentality by Rei · · Score: 1

      That would be hilarious telling him that someone assumed that he was a feminist ;)

      --
      I'll never forget the last thing grandma said to me before she died: "What are you doing in here with that knife?!?"
    36. Re:Shop mentality vs office mentality by xtal · · Score: 1

      If you have signing or final recommendation authority on 7-figure POs, this is indeed most certainly what happens.

      --
      ..don't panic
    37. Re:Shop mentality vs office mentality by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I call bullshit. Have you ever tried to get a receipt from a stripper while sitting in gyno row? It's impossible, I know.

      "Well you see, I ran my card through the slot presented to me, but the printer must've been broken..."

      You gotta insert it, there's a chip reader.

    38. Re:Shop mentality vs office mentality by TWX · · Score: 1

      *grin*

      Oh to have been a fly on the wall when her meeting with HR turning them in was proceeding...

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    39. Re:Shop mentality vs office mentality by Zeromous · · Score: 1

      >Have you ever tried to get a receipt from a stripper while sitting in gyno row? It's impossible, I know.

      Drinks?

      Yes we agree. it's not impossible to expense drinks.

      --
      ---Up Up Down Down Left Right Left Right B A START
    40. Re:Shop mentality vs office mentality by TWX · · Score: 1

      What is it that you think that free speech means?

      In the United States it means that, within certain constraints, government cannot silence you or take retribution. Things that fall outside of those constraints are speech inciting certain kinds of behavior, speech used in the commission of another crime, etc. Additionally courts and governing bodies have the right to set rules that restrict speech within their chambers for the purposes of maintaining procedural order, and violations may result in being muzzled or censured.

      Freedom of speech does not guarantee the right to say whatever one wants without retribution, just retribution from the government, and as such an employer may fire you for your speech.

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    41. Re:Shop mentality vs office mentality by TWX · · Score: 1

      In the context of the workplace, most of the anatomical words you've brought up, even the non-vulgar ones, could still be grounds for a complaint. In the case of the workplace it isn't the words that are the problem, it's the topic.

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    42. Re:Shop mentality vs office mentality by Demena · · Score: 1

      No. A strip club is insufficient for that. That requires a keeper.

    43. Re:Shop mentality vs office mentality by stealth_finger · · Score: 1

      I swear at work all the fucking time, I've never really had a problem with it though because I work with adults and am not public facing and I try to tone it down for the most part. The thing that pisses me off the most though is people who use replacement swear words as if its perfectly fine. Ok so you said for bucks sake instead of for fucks sake. It means the exact same fucking thing idiot and even if you change a letter or two you're still basically swearing. (don't know if you do this, it's just a general gripe)

      --
      Wanna buy a shirt?
      https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
    44. Re:Shop mentality vs office mentality by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      FYI: We don't write it off. We bill it back to the clients (who write it off), plus 20% for the effort. Keeps the contracts flowing.

      I've spent over $1k on dinners for four people. Many times. Works particularly well at companies that watch their own employee's expenses like hawks, those guys appreciate the consideration (bribes).

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    45. Re:Shop mentality vs office mentality by TangoMargarine · · Score: 1

      Free speech covers between you and the government. Your employer is a whole 'nother thing.

      --
      Unity? Screw that: XFCE. Slashdot Beta? Screw that: SoylentNews. Australis? Screw that: Pale Moon. UX developers DIAF
    46. Re:Shop mentality vs office mentality by Archfeld · · Score: 1

      I was told by a lawyer, that it was not the intention, but the listener or viewers interpretation. Thus the difference between urinating in public, and indecent exposure lies in who if any views it. I and my coworker thought the jokes were all in good fun, but the women who overheard them felt they were sexually discriminating and insulting. I was told by the boss that had she not complained there would have been no issue. Of course if the woman had not overheard no one else would have ever have known the event even took place...

      --
      errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
    47. Re:Shop mentality vs office mentality by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Only fundamentalist spergs don't like strip clubs

    48. Re:Shop mentality vs office mentality by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      SJW's like the OP love to get offended over everything.

      She is raging because she didn't go and if they asked she would be raging about that.

      Being a professional butthurt victim shouldn't be a thing, but it somehow became one.

  4. ass|u|me by bhcompy · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I'm assuming the culture at Tesla is similar to the culture at SpaceX, which is a culture of "fuck you, work 90 hour weeks because you're just here building your resume and I can work you to death if I want to", which is to say any pervasive harassment isn't a female problem, it's a cultural problem that is applied to every peon in the building. If that assumption holds true, the fact that she was paid less isn't because she's a girl, but because the market bears that salary for that position for a girl and Tesla can and will get away with anything it can to further its goals in the most cost effective way possible. Basically, it's the assassin saying "It's not personal, it's just business", which the courts tend to be okay with because it's not special treatment.

    1. Re:ass|u|me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the culture was that bad, wouldn't there be multiple lawsuits from multiple complainants, both male and female?

    2. Re:ass|u|me by bhcompy · · Score: 2

      Most people just look for a better job. They don't care about "what the company stands for". Shitty work conditions are normal in startup culture.

    3. Re:ass|u|me by meta-monkey · · Score: 2

      Bad culture isn't something you can win a lawsuit over. If you treat everybody like shit, you're not exactly singling anybody out for unfair treatment. And I've heard the same thing as ~bhcompy about SpaceX, that it's basically "you're lucky getting to work here at this badass company so we're going to treat you like shit and if you don't like it fuck off." Probably really cool for somebody in their 20s who wants to make space rockets, but if you've got a family, fuck no.

      --
      We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
    4. Re:ass|u|me by uncqual · · Score: 1

      What grounds would a male, esp. a white able-bodied straight male, have to sue if he was legitimately a salaried employee? He wouldn't be part of any actual or de-facto protected class. It's legal to expect salaried workers to finish their work even if it takes extra effort.

      --
      Why is there an "insightful" mod and why isn't it "-1"? If I wanted insight, I wouldn't be reading /.
    5. Re:ass|u|me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nice false equivalence. It's entirely possible for white, straight, able-bodied men to be harassed.

      Women coming on to a guy who was not interested, and not letting up....there are men who have the inherent wisdom to not [date] where they eat.
      Gay men coming on to straight men.
      Simple job harassment - calling someone incompetent or accusing them of incompetence when evidence suggests otherwise, or calling someone incompetent while taking credit for the supposedly incompetent person's work.

      All of these are harassment.

      All are wrong.

    6. Re: ass|u|me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you fucking retarded?

      If I stick my dick in a white cis male's ear while he's working, you're arguing that it wouldn't be harassment?

      How fucking stupid can you possibly be?

    7. Re: ass|u|me by uncqual · · Score: 1

      Nope, I wasn't arguing that point at all -- nice strawman. However, there is no claim here that someone (male, female, or other) exposed themselves to this engineer -- let alone actually touched her with their exposed genitalia.

      --
      Why is there an "insightful" mod and why isn't it "-1"? If I wanted insight, I wouldn't be reading /.
    8. Re:ass|u|me by uncqual · · Score: 1

      Umm... Look at the comment I was responding to and then think again. It's okay, I'll wait for you -- I know it's hard for you to read. Also, take a bit more time and read the GP as well.

      Tick, tock...

      Okay, 20 minutes later after you found someone to read (and explain to you) the comment I was responding to:

      If the culture was that bad, wouldn't there be multiple lawsuits from multiple complainants, both male and female?

      perhaps you will understand.

      You see, the point that was raised in the GP was that perhaps all "peons" in the building, male and female alike, were "harassed" by being required to work 90 hour weeks etc. In that case, those who are not a member of a protected group are unlikely to find a lawyer to take a case on the pretense that somehow they were selectively picked out for mistreatment based on their membership in that class (when in fact they were not).

      --
      Why is there an "insightful" mod and why isn't it "-1"? If I wanted insight, I wouldn't be reading /.
    9. Re: ass|u|me by bhcompy · · Score: 1

      There is no sexual harassment claim, only a claim that they're being paid less because of their gender.

    10. Re:ass|u|me by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      He wouldn't be part of any actual or de-facto protected class.

      Yes he would, and you fundamentally misunderstand the law. Race is a protected class, not "blackness" or "nonwhiteness", but race. That means it is illegal to discriminate based on race. Likewise, geneder is a protected class, not "non maleness". It is illegal to discriminate based on gender in any direction.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    11. Re:ass|u|me by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      Wow someone who doesn't like the truth has modded me down. Here's a clue: if you think I'm mistaken then point to the statute and/or relevant case law indicating I'm wrong. Otherwise you're just using mod points to suppress the truth. Something which unfortunately has started to happen a lot round here.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    12. Re:ass|u|me by uncqual · · Score: 1

      You are completely missing the point.

      Everyone is a member of several protected classes (we are all of some gender and some mix of races for example).

      Those that happen to be in a minority group within a class toss that into lawsuits as a reason they are not getting what they want even though they are completely wrong or are, more strategically, using the claim as a bargaining chip. Lawyers are much more likely to take these cases when they really don't have merit because the chances of settlement are higher as the risk of finding a sympathetic (aka gullible) jury is higher, the risk of bad PR if the case goes to trial is higher, and it's one more claim that needs to be defended which increases the cost of litigation (even if they win) for the defendant. Those that are in a majority group within a class don't have the leverage because of the public notion that the majority can't be discriminated against.

      Ellen Pao is a great example of someone who, in spite of much support and mentoring, just wasn't cut out for the job she wanted as a senior partner (which was pretty clear from testimony) but she got a lawyer to take her case on gender discrimination grounds. The vast majority (all?) of the 20 or 25 people, almost certainly mostly men, who were passed over before her didn't do the same (perhaps because they were not as arrogant and could recognize that they didn't have the necessary traits and skills) and just moved on. Had the men attempted to make a false claim that they were passed over because of gender instead of skills and traits, they would never have found a lawyer to take the case anyway (California is an "at will" state).

      --
      Why is there an "insightful" mod and why isn't it "-1"? If I wanted insight, I wouldn't be reading /.
    13. Re:ass|u|me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mmmm. They used the coward's "overrated" tag as well. A shame.

  5. let's not prejudge either side. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

    oh shit.. too late.

    No we don't know she's an SJW trying to Kafkatrap Tesla.

    No we have no evidence Musk is a rapist. Yes I know he's got a penis, that is not evidence.

    1. Re:let's not prejudge either side. by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 2, Informative

      "No we have no evidence Musk is a rapist. Yes I know he's got a penis, that is not evidence."

      In California, possession of a penis without a valid marriage license is prima facie evidence of being a harasser. Given a marriage license, conviction requires in addition the sworn testimony of a SJW.

    2. Re:let's not prejudge either side. by Hylandr · · Score: 1

      Delorean all over again. For Musk and Uber.

      --
      ~ People that think they are better than anyone else for any reason are the cause of all the strife in the world.
    3. Re:let's not prejudge either side. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Having personally experienced women using "feminism" to get what they want in the most blatant way, and getting it, I will prejudge, especially in a high profile case like this.

    4. Re:let's not prejudge either side. by Oswald+McWeany · · Score: 1

      oh shit.. too late.

      No we don't know she's an SJW trying to Kafkatrap Tesla.

      No we have no evidence Musk is a rapist. Yes I know he's got a penis, that is not evidence.

      How do you know he has a penis?

      Sounds like an assumption rather than something you know.

      --
      "That's the way to do it" - Punch
    5. Re:let's not prejudge either side. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He obviously does and the evidence indicates it is exceptionally small. Most guys with small dicks buy fast cars to compensate, he went one better and founded a company that makes fast cars, not only that he also created a company that makes rockets, and you can't really get much more phallic than a rocket, that's clearly obvious compensation for a tiny todger.

      If he didn't have a small prick, then he wouldn't need to compensate for it. What more proof of his penis ownership do you need?

    6. Re:let's not prejudge either side. by DickBreath · · Score: 1

      Musk could hire an insultant to perform an inspection and certify that the proper equipment is both installed and functioning properly.

      --

      I'll see your senator, and I'll raise you two judges.
    7. Re:let's not prejudge either side. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And I prejudge that you're a total douchebag who isn't worth the time replying to, but I'm waiting for S3 to come back so I have a few minutes.

    8. Re:let's not prejudge either side. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They're bored Reddit/4chan right wing nuts that added this site to their daily routine after a few articles related to Assange/WL and Trump were posted. Doubt many of them even work in tech, what this site is about, if they even have a job at all.

    9. Re:let's not prejudge either side. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You sound triggered. Maybe you should run to your safe space.

      I the space I occupy *is* my safe space, adapt to my world view or leave.

    10. Re:let's not prejudge either side. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "No we have no evidence Musk is a rapist. Yes I know he's got a penis, that is not evidence."

      In California, possession of a penis without a valid marriage license is prima facie evidence of being a harasser. Given a marriage license, conviction requires in addition the sworn testimony of a SJW.

      Even with a license and a willing partner some claim that it's harassment to use that thing. They are called Feminists where marriage == rape..

  6. Horrible...if true by grasshoppa · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Forgive me, but past accusations haven't exactly primed me to believe this. If true, it's absolutely something that should be corrected, and she should be lauded for having the courage to make it public. ...however, if it's sour grapes because she didn't get the promotion she wanted, I wonder if we'll ever hear about it?

    --
    Mod me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
    1. Re:Horrible...if true by Baron_Yam · · Score: 2

      The problem is the minor stuff gets ignored (and honestly, a good deal of it is just innocent human being human stuff which is WHY it gets ignored), and a lot of the genuine complaints are so beyond our experience that when they're brought up they sound just as outrageous as the false ones.

      I'm kind of on board with "Don't make a big deal of it in the press until it's gone through the courts". There's no reasonable way to judge what happened based on whether the claims seem credible or not, when reality is so variable in this regard.

    2. Re:Horrible...if true by Oswald+McWeany · · Score: 1

      I've hear lots of complaints about sexism in the work place, but never actually seen any in person, (besides reverse sexism). Naturally, as a man, I probably would see a lot less of it and most of my coworkers currently are women, so it would probably be very difficult for sexism to fly in this environment.

      --
      "That's the way to do it" - Punch
    3. Re:Horrible...if true by grasshoppa · · Score: 5, Insightful

      In my experience, I'd say a majority of sex and gender related claims are false. People use hotbutton issues to throw a fit when things don't go their way. Didn't get the promotion? Obviously it was because of your gender. Group of people laughing near you? They're obviously making fun of you. and so on...and so on.

      That said, I have seen situations of real, honest to goodness harassment and discrimination. Worse, I've seen companies try to "quietly" handle it ( ie: hush it up ). Those who step up and refuse to be victims have my utmost respect.

      However, they appear to be the minority.

      --
      Mod me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
    4. Re:Horrible...if true by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Whereas in my experience, every claim, no matter how valid and substantial, is automatically handwaved as "made-up" or "preposterous" or otherwise dismissed.

      In fact, the number of people who don't even care when you hurt their feelings is high. After all, you're the one with the problem if you can't take a joke.

      Captcha? Converse.

      Gah. I am saying the converse of what you're saying.

    5. Re:Horrible...if true by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It sounds like sour grapes. She seems to believe that getting promoted into management is a meritocracy, when it is anything but. There are even people who avoid being promoted into management because of the stigma of having to deal with things they don't find interesting (anything that is outside of their field). In reality, managers do very little work related to their field of expertise. They use their years of expertise to help guide the project along, but they deal with all the bureaucratic nonsense, a lot of paper work, keeping people happy, etc. For a role like that, technical expertise takes a backseat to soft skills like charisma. I've seen highly qualified candidates rejected for management positions, only to be filled by "weaker" candidates regardless of the genders involved. That's just how it is.

      And honestly she shot herself in the foot by being a huge asset in her current role. She's shown she has a lot of value doing the current job she has. She even found errors that her other highly qualified colleagues had missed! Why would you make her a Suit when she clearly kicks ass at what she does?

      I've seen a lot of engineering types struggle with this. Corporations are not a meritocracy. The guy above you doesn't necessarily make more money than you. The guy above you isn't necessarily more knowledgeable than you. You will not be promoted simply for doing your job really well. These things *can* be true, but they don't have to be, nor are they normally true.

    6. Re:Horrible...if true by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There's no such thing as reverse sexism. When women are sexist towards men, it is still sexism. Sexism isn't a gender specific term, and it can occur both ways.

    7. Re:Horrible...if true by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You have been out of the social justice loop for a while now haven't you? Let me help you.

      Women can't be sexist because they have been historically marginalized.
      Black people can't be racist because they have been historically marginalized.

    8. Re:Horrible...if true by hey! · · Score: 1

      The troubling thing in these situations is always the possibility of the sour grapes/personal vendetta scenario you describe. That said, the very doubt this automatically raises means that a prudent person doesn't take such an accusation lightly.

      As I say to my kids, with seven billion people on the planet you can find examples of virtually any kind of behavior you can imagine. It doesn't make that behavior normal or representative of anything.

      So you can't jump to any conclusions one way or the other. You can try to gauge how credible this person sounds, but what other people might have done has no bearing on that.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    9. Re:Horrible...if true by thinkwaitfast · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I had a coworker who got in trouble with HR for making racists remarks to another Africa-American friend of his (they played football together outside of work and were joking around). The guy who called HR was a few desks down and white. Offensensitivity

    10. Re:Horrible...if true by Kartu · · Score: 1

      Most stats claimed by 3rd/4th wave of feminists are vastly exaggerated, that's why you don't see a lot of things that are claimed to be oh so common.
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

    11. Re:Horrible...if true by nctritech · · Score: 1

      I would mod this up into the sky if I had the points to do it, if for no other reason than the great link.

    12. Re:Horrible...if true by Type44Q · · Score: 1

      Those who step up and refuse to be victims have my utmost respect.

      And... that may or may not be what's happening here.

    13. Re:Horrible...if true by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      It's worth reporting because if there is merit to the claims it may encourage others to come forward. We have seen time and time again that it takes one person speaking out for others to find the courage.

      If it is made up she will lose everything. Lawyers will bankrupt her, she will be unemployable. It's a big risk, and even if she wins some will try to assassinate her character and refuse to give her a job. It's not an easy thing to do.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    14. Re:Horrible...if true by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "However, they appear to be the minority."

    15. Re:Horrible...if true by bobbied · · Score: 1

      I've seen it... Wasn't pretty... Um.. Not my boss, she was OK looking but her relationship with HER boss was both common knowledge and a sight to see as it transpired in the office for all to see. It was complete with long lunches, traveling together and calling in sick on the same days. It didn't turn out well, but I'm pretty sure they both got the boot after their breakup. Her for being totally unable to really do her job (the one the company paid her for) and Him for having the relationship with her and opening the company up to the harassment lawsuit she filed.

      Then there was the other place, where it was just ugly all around....

      I learned one important thing. Don't do it, don't date anybody at work, it doesn't end well...

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    16. Re:Horrible...if true by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      White women haven't been marginalized though.
      The ones who benefited the most from the days of colonization and imperialism were white women
      who didn't have to die in foreign land and face danger, but only needed to wait in the comfort of home
      for a silver platter to come at the cost of male blood.
      The platter included stolen gems and metals for the jewelry of white women (the biggest consumers of this blood industry),
      leathers and hides and silk/cotton for their clothing and furnishing,
      precious woods for their furnishing and ornaments,
      various plants and powders for their makeup,
      etc. etc. etc.
      White women were never circumcised, white women were never enslaved or purged for being white women.
      Even the witch hunting argument is not an argument since it is an act of purging individuals for blasphemous acts irrespective of their gender,
      applicable to both witches and warlocks (derogatory term for male witches during the inquisitions days).
      And white women were never ever asked to pay reparation or give back their ill gotten wealth.
      No. Instead they are asking for even more today without ever having to pay for the past.

      Your statement would only be correct if you said women of color. But white women are the most privileged group on this planet.
      Even the talk of positions of power is bullshit, as it takes one word of divorce for the financial state of the world to suddenly turn from men to women
      (i'm talking the wealthiest people who are all married).

    17. Re:Horrible...if true by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      It tends to go with power. If a woman I don't have to care about treats men like dirt, it won't really bother me. If one I have to work with, or has some authority over me, treats men like dirt, I have a problem.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    18. Re:Horrible...if true by Demena · · Score: 1

      Do you mean 'inverse' or are you just being strange (normal here)?

    19. Re:Horrible...if true by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, not quite the inverse. Another meaning of converse:

      adjective 1. opposite or contrary in direction, action, sequence, etc.; turned around.
      noun 2.something opposite or contrary.
                                    3. Logic. a proposition obtained from another proposition by conversion.
                                    4. group of words correlative with a preceding group but having a significant pair of terms interchanged, as “hot in winter but cold in summer” and “cold in
                                    winter but hot in summer.”.

    20. Re:Horrible...if true by Demena · · Score: 1

      Erp.....

      I see. You did mean inverse.

      There are rules (or at least strong suggestions) in English that many users of English are not aware of.

      inverse: opposite or contrary in position, direction, order, or effect
      converse: corresponding yet opposing

  7. Let's take a second and think about this. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    "which consisted mostly of men and where she was paid less than male engineers whose work she directly took over" This seems to imply this just because she is a woman, I'm a dude and I've been in this position myself, hell I've even been in a engineering management position and made less than the guys I was in charge of of.

    Sure this all could just be because she's a woman, but there is at least a real possibility that there were other reasons contributing to her situation.

    1. Re:Let's take a second and think about this. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Same here - my last project manager was also in his early 30s and in charge of directing me, gathering product requirements and ensuring my work met specifications made far less than I did (but more than he did in his last position).

      We also, as an established team, ribbed him for being the new guy and for trying to implement new processes (mostly good naturedly but there was a definite attitude of "I'm going to increase our productivity because I'm cool" - Think the Lieutenant in Aliens and you've got the right idea)

      He didn't work out. Not because we didn't produce but because he couldn't wrangle his superiors to settle on requirements.

      If he had been a woman I could've easily seen the rationale of "This only happened because I'm a woman - the whole environment was hostile" (Yeah - it was - your typical business political BS)

    2. Re: Let's take a second and think about this. by aussie_a · · Score: 1

      I've seen more experienced people get a matter through the hard part and then hand it over to a more junior person. I've also seen people fired because they earned too much and then more junior people hired to replace them and yet they do the same work.

      Plenty of explanations that aren't sexism. Have to wait and see what evidence is offered to support the claim.

    3. Re:Let's take a second and think about this. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      paid less than male engineers whose work she directly took over

      This is not especially surprising. If she's taking over a position previously held by someone else for N years then I assume she's qualified to do the job, but she necessarily has less experience (or she's a lousy negotiator). The key question is "will she be making as much as her predecessor after she has N years of experience in the position?"

    4. Re:Let's take a second and think about this. by coolsnowmen · · Score: 1

      this is always a possibility, only provable with larger data sets. Most companies don't want to release this data. The ones people have been able to compile seem to indicated the average pay of women is less for equal work.

  8. Two things I don't understand by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    1) Why does everyone keep calling her Susan Fowler? She's married now, it's Susan Rigetti - but I guess they don't want people looking up that name and associating this whole incident with her husband's "computer company"

    2) This is not the first time she's made headlines with attention-grabbing claims. A few months ago there was a story about her making the rounds on how she'd moved from studying math at a 6th-grade level to doing graduate-level quantum mechanics in just 18 months. I don't want to cast doubt on her current claims, but this previous story is highly incredible, to say the least.

    1. Re:Two things I don't understand by ohnocitizen · · Score: 1, Insightful

      "I don't want to cast doubt on her claims" -> yes. Yes you clearly do, AC.

    2. Re:Two things I don't understand by Hylandr · · Score: 2

      All claims should be met with skepticism. You know, innocent until proven guilty.

      --
      ~ People that think they are better than anyone else for any reason are the cause of all the strife in the world.
    3. Re:Two things I don't understand by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, actually. I want everyone to automatically be skeptical. Believing everything anyone says on the internet in the absence of any independent source of evidence is the epitome of foolishness. "Casting doubt" should be unnecessary and irrelevant.

    4. Re:Two things I don't understand by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why does everyone keep calling her Susan Fowler? She's married now, it's Susan Rigetti

      Serious question, did she change her name? People can choose to get married and not change their name, but you seem to imply that women must change their name when they get married.

      Makes me wonder what you think happens when two women get married (or two men).

    5. Re:Two things I don't understand by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, I'm not afraid of casting doubt, it should be doubted but the possibility that she is presenting the issues completely accurately should remain open.

    6. Re:Two things I don't understand by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You forgot the "especially women"

    7. Re:Two things I don't understand by Kartu · · Score: 1

      Yeah, especially those twice less likely to get prison sentence in, otherwise, the same circumstances, besides, I bet your pardon, having vagina and not penis,.

    8. Re:Two things I don't understand by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, they don't. Or maybe they do for SJWs.

      Just because it's the law of the land that will not force me to break my definition of who is "Married". Marriage is between a man and a woman. And I don't care how loud or long you protest to the contrary. They can go do what they want when they want, but they aren't "married" as far as I am concerned. :)

    9. Re:Two things I don't understand by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... it's Susan Rigetti ...

      Is that the name she uses elsewhere? Maybe she didn't change her name, or at least wants her 'brand' and reputation to be recognized after her marriage.

      ... associating this whole incident with her husband's "computer company".

      Why should her employment issues be associated with a company who isn't causing issues, or associated with her husband? Besides, if she is a whining bitch, then her husband and his company, will want to avoid the impending bad publicity..

      ... but this previous story is highly incredible ...

      What suggests she doesn't have the aptitude for mathematics? What proves she can't learn on her own, at an accelerated rate?

      I've seen a woman with children, study 6 engineering subjects, a massive workload, and pass. When I was at school, the student getting the highest marks was a very pretty girl. As such, I didn't have much to do with her but one day I realized she wasn't super-smart, she just spent many hours doing study and revision. She became a medical doctor, a job achieved mostly by many hours of study and revision.

  9. Re:Apps for harrassment? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You forgot to end the comment with "APPS!", genius.

  10. Re:Apps for harrassment? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Tesla cows don't make any moo. they are completely silent, you only hear their hooves.

  11. It's all about experience by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I hate when people complain that they are doing the same job and getting paid less without mentioning how much experience they have. If they have less experience in that position, then they should fully expect to get paid less. It's not about being 'qualified', it simply comes down to experience.

    However, with all the bitching and moaning that they do, I'm not surprised that some employers wouldn't want to promote their whining asses.

    Waaaaa, but I came up with "a" solution and they didn't make me head of the company, waaaaa.

    1. Re:It's all about experience by aicrules · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It is pretty common for people at that level not to understand more than basic comparison. It is very difficult to make ANY comparisons though without making that sort of assumption first. She should have kept the harassment separate from the allegations of unfair pay/advancement. The latter being found inaccurate will make her other claims suspect.

  12. Re:Apps for harrassment? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Not enough to meme/troll about on Reddit and 4chan today?

  13. Believing tabloids by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Gives you a false sense of reality. Enjoy the delusion that communist rags like "the guardian" paint for you. As a hunch, I'm sure you will be watching CNN and MSNBC for follow up stories.

  14. She is not an "Engineer". by Jahoda · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Ok, well, first off, this woman is not an "Engineer" in the sense that she holds any academic credentials or certifications (neither am I). The article clearly states she started working at Tesla in 2013, was *promoted* to vehicle assembly. She is an "assembly engineer" in the same way that a guy working on the floor at Ford making IC cars is.

    After this, following claims that she was held to unreasonable performance standards and subject to sexual harassment on the shop floor, , she transfered to the "purchasing department", which Tesla was apparently glad to accomodate.

    These are simple facts which may or may not be relevant to the case, which appears to me that Tesla hired this woman, and has been happy to allow her to shift roles in the company and build her skillset. Apparently, she just purchased a Model-S. I have worked in IT for 15 years, and I sure can't afford a Model-S. So, anyway, sounds like a pretty damned good job to me.

    1. Re: She is not an "Engineer". by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      She is an Engineer in the same way that someone working at the Apple Store is a Genius.

    2. Re:She is not an "Engineer". by aicrules · · Score: 5, Insightful

      She definitely shouldn't have mixed the harassment and equal pay claims. That will only hurt her case. The "equal pay" claims will be impossible to prove anything and will make her just look like she nagging and therefore draw more skepticism into her harassment claims. The harassment, if true, is unacceptable. That kind of behavior is impossible to ever get away from completely, but management's reaction to it especially within a company that public, should be way better.

    3. Re:She is not an "Engineer". by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your points are all orthogonal to harassment claims. Whether you can afford a model S is irrelevant.

    4. Re:She is not an "Engineer". by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Also note the article where she poses for pictures and eagerly tells her story. I'd say there's more to this than demanding restitution for a perceived wrongdoing. Call me a conspiracy theorist, but this could be a launchpad for a new Reality TV show in disguise.

    5. Re:She is not an "Engineer". by misexistentialist · · Score: 1

      terrible compensation compared to her peers, Elon Musk's wives

    6. Re:She is not an "Engineer". by Jahoda · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The sexual harassment is one thing. If the facts are what she says they are, then I agree she should have a right to be treated respectfully by co-workers on the shop floor. (I don't for even one second believe that Tesla's culture condones or excuses such behavior - but that is my opinion and irrelevant here.)

      However, having regards equal pay, the deal is this: Her public linked in shows her to have been a pharmaceutical sales rep for ~4 years before joining Tesla. After a year in Tesla sales, she became a project coordinator. 7 months after this she was transfered to "assembly engineer". Now, I have no idea the quality of persons that she replaced, but if she, a 31 year old with zero previous mechanical and assembly experience (as evidenced by her resume), I certainly wouldn't expect her pay to be the same as a guy who has been working in a mechanical assembly position for even 5 years, to say nothing of if these were guys with 15 years on her.

    7. Re:She is not an "Engineer". by Nidi62 · · Score: 2

      She definitely shouldn't have mixed the harassment and equal pay claims. That will only hurt her case. The "equal pay" claims will be impossible to prove anything and will make her just look like she nagging and therefore draw more skepticism into her harassment claims. The harassment, if true, is unacceptable. That kind of behavior is impossible to ever get away from completely, but management's reaction to it especially within a company that public, should be way better.

      To be fair for Tesla, if the previous holders of the position she took over have extensive experience at other manufacturers it is quite possible that they qualified for a higher wage based on experience alone. I work with people that do the exact same job I do but have 30 more years with the company than I do. I would expect them to make more than me. Same job rarely equals same pay between people unless it is a very cookie-cutter and dead end job.

      --
      The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
    8. Re: She is not an "Engineer". by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Most replacements make less than the person they replace. Often the new person has less experience doing that specific task.

    9. Re:She is not an "Engineer". by rahvin112 · · Score: 1

      Can't get away from? Jesus are you in IT?

      Sexual harassment is nearly non-existent in the fortune 500 precisely because these companies have learned. They have zero tolerance policies towards this behavior and if you do it you will be written up and depending on the severity you might get marched to the door by security. Management does not tolerate this behavior because it can't be tolerated, the only solution to this type of behavior is immediate punishment.

      I don't work in an IT field, I work in an engineering field with very small numbers of women and there is little to no such behavior in my field because it's immediately punished and the offender is notified that they do it again and they will be looking for a new job. The problem is that Silicon valley and IT in particular are full of a bunch of juvenile idiots that apparently can't keep their dick in the pants or control their impulses. Like the rest of the fortune 500 they WILL learn their lesson through bad publicity and lawsuits and eventually the behavior will stop because the people that do it won't be working for them anymore just like the rest of the business world.

    10. Re:She is not an "Engineer". by aicrules · · Score: 1

      Oh i agree. You don't have it institutionally like is portrayed on mad men, but just like racism, there will always be people who don't share the accepted, common view of how people should be treated. No matter how good a job we do as a society it will exist. What I find absolutely incredible is that companies today still have the secondary issue of not ADDRESSING the harassment appropriately. That's where the lawsuit comes. If they dealt with it appropriately when she reported it, then she would have no standing for a suit. I personally can't understand people who act that way towards anybody, especially in a business setting. But I'm just one person.

    11. Re:She is not an "Engineer". by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >>Sexual harassment is nearly non-existent in the fortune 500 precisely because these companies have learned.

      Oh, I get it: you're kidding.

    12. Re:She is not an "Engineer". by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      The equal pay claims are the easiest to prove. There will be ample evidence of what others were paid, how much experience they had, what the nature of the job was etc. The company will have plenty of documentation.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    13. Re:She is not an "Engineer". by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Sexual harassment is nearly non-existent in the fortune 500 precisely

      Since every now and again we read about it being perpetrated by people in those companies who are famous enough to be household names I very much doubt it.

    14. Re:She is not an "Engineer". by Not-a-Neg · · Score: 1

      Reminds me of when I worked as an upgrade technician at Computer City (a store run by the Tandy corporation back in the mid-90's). The manager gave everyone ridiculous job titles, mine was Sales Engineer.

      --
      -==- Buy a Mac and leave me alone!
  15. Re:Apps for harrassment? by Hylandr · · Score: 2

    This has led to more than one occurrence where I have about fallen over when a Tesla has passed close to me in the parking lot. Once the car started moving on it's own with little else as visual reference I found my body compensating against the movement. Because there was no sound I assumed the car was stationary and I was not. Glancing away and grabbing another car for balance was the only thing preventing becoming one with the pavement.

    --
    ~ People that think they are better than anyone else for any reason are the cause of all the strife in the world.
  16. Re:Apps for harrassment? by HornWumpus · · Score: 4, Funny

    When I was a kid in HS we used to harass other drivers. 2 or 3 of us (separate cars) would pull up next to an old lady at a red light. On cue, we'd all start to reverse slowly, while watching the old lady freakout, thinking her brakes were letting her roll into traffic.

    --
    John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
  17. Re:Apps for harrassment? by Hylandr · · Score: 1

    Omg you're an inspiration!

    I wish I had thought of this when I was younger. :)

    --
    ~ People that think they are better than anyone else for any reason are the cause of all the strife in the world.
  18. Looks like its a legal specialty now by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    >Therese Lawless, Vandermeyden’s lawyer,
    > who represented former Reddit CEO Ellen Pao in her high-profile discrimination lawsuit against venture capital firm Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers.

    Well, we know how that turned out for Ellen.

    >Vandermeyden recently took out a hefty loan to buy the cheapest version of the Model S Tesla car and has a reservation for the upcoming Model 3

    So after launching a potentially very expensive lawsuit you decide to get a "hefty" loan and buy a Model S? Huh.

  19. Come back when the verdict is in... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm getting tired of stories based on allegations.

    We obviously don't know the facts of the case. We obviously can't judge the merits of the case.

    All this does is try to stoke the extreme ends of the spectrum; feminists will see this as another example of men keeping women down in STEM, while anti-feminists will see this as yet another false accusation to further the cause of women in STEM.

    How about we let the courts do their job *THEN* write an article about the results instead of trying this in the 'court' of public opinion.

    1. Re:Come back when the verdict is in... by PPH · · Score: 1

      I'm OK with this sort of preliminary news. First, I'll assume that the well informed reader can differentiate between a lawsuit being filed and a verdict being handed down. So they will take this story with a grain of salt. Second, and much more important; this is material information that could affect the bottom line of the company. It's public information that, absent a news story, would go unnoticed by the average investor not having access to the kinds of research firms and pricey newsletters that the big shots use to get the jump on the small fry. And finally, this news gives me a heads up to watch for a verdict or other outcome. The suit may be dismissed as groundless, but very often an out of court settlement will be made, with the terms kept private. We may never hear any more about this and, in my opinion, that could be the most important information I could find about a prospective investment or employer.

      Companies that settle out of court and in secret often do not add their reputation's value of being acquitted to the calculation of a settlement. There is more than the avoided court costs to be considered when negotiating a settlement. It is worth something to be found not guilty. So when I see a lawsuit 'disappear' off the public's radar, I suspect that there may be some guilt. And I've been on the inside of a company that cut a huge settlement that, had the investment community been aware of the circumstances, many people may have made more informed decisions with their life savings before the outfit finally went under.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    2. Re:Come back when the verdict is in... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fully agree. It drives me nuts seeing this kind of shit being dragged through news channels first before it sees the light of day in court. Exploiting people's emotions and opinions before the whole story is hashed out in the legal system is definitely shady.

  20. Maybe she was just too dumb to negotiate better... by argStyopa · · Score: 3, Insightful

    " where she was paid less than male engineers whose work she directly took over, according to her complaint."

    So why accept/keep the job if she's unhappy with the compensation?

    --
    -Styopa
  21. Re:Apps for harrassment? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Omg you're an inspiration! I wish I had thought of this when I was younger. :)

    Just a post ago you were complaining about this, and now you're inspired to do it to someone else.

  22. Re: Oh well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So so true

  23. Don't hire females. by klapek · · Score: 0

    A simple solution. If you are accused of any form of harassment you are guilty even before the trial.

    1. Re:Don't hire females. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Women are also the worst offenders for sexual harassment from my experience.

    2. Re:Don't hire females. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It really isn't surprising when you consider 70%+ of non-reciprocal domestic violence is committed by women. Isn't surprising when DV levels are higher in same-sex female relationships than hetero relationships, which are higher than same-sex male relationships. Isn't surprising when if only one parent is abusive, it's the mom. There's a reason straight male strippers would rather strip for gay men, and it isn't curiosity.

  24. Re:This by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No, this why you promote a problematic woman into a management position where she is sure to fail badly. Then you'll have cause to fire her and any complaints of "inequality" or "harassment" will be dismissed as the complaints of a disgruntled employee who couldn't handle the responsibilities and workload expected of someone in her position and payscale. Cheaper than a lawsuit in the longrun.

  25. blogs v police... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why are these allegations always from blogs and never from police reports?

    1. Re:blogs v police... by nomadic · · Score: 1

      Sexual harassment isn't a crime, it simply creates a civil cause of action.

  26. Court of public opinion dismissed by WaffleMonster · · Score: 1

    If you believe you have been harassed then first go find a judge and pursuit your case in civil/criminal court.

    When there is an actual finding feel free to report that in a news article. Don't go to the public with an unsubstantiated one sided story not one member of the public is in any position to properly evaluate in order to push emotional buttons and exert PR pressure.

    God knows most of us have dealt with people who just make shit up for personal gain or who expend more mental energy screwing over coworkers than they do actually working.

    The media's standards for publishing stories has to be higher than one half's account of their divorce.

    1. Re:Court of public opinion dismissed by thinkwaitfast · · Score: 1

      No, it's like science. Publish in the NYT first and Phys Rev. D second.

    2. Re:Court of public opinion dismissed by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Lawsuits are expensive, uncertain, and may have other unpleasant consequences. Moreover, there's a good chance that there will be no findings, since if the company is guilty it will probably settle and pay the plaintiff money in exchange for the plaintiff never talking about it.

      I wouldn't take one or two blogs as convincing, but multiple ones can establish a pattern.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  27. I don't get it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    'says she has suffered "mental distress" and "humiliation."'

    This has been my experience with every single job I've ever had. What makes her so special that she can sue someone over this?

  28. Re:Apps for harrassment? by ghoul · · Score: 2

    OK thats evil but funny. Am I a bad person that I find that funny?

    --
    **Life is too short to be serious**
  29. How do you even find out what your colleagues make by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Seriously, money is taboo subject at work and I've never been asked what I make and I've never had the temerity to ask what a colleague is making. How do you even find out what your colleagues make? And even if they tell you how do you know they aren't lying? People tend to lie a whole lot about money. Absent a W2 staring me right in the face I doubt I'd believe they weren't lying by 20% in one direction or the other depending on the person.

    That's why I never believe people who make these kinds of claims. In what universe would you ever even find out?

  30. Underpaid can afford Model S? by ghoul · · Score: 1

    If she can afford a Model S while working on the Assembly line I don't think she is underpaid. I have 15 years working in IT and a Masters from a top 10 University and I cant afford a Model S. (Unless she thinks the harassment suit is her big payday and she has already started spending the settlement money)

    The catcalls is an issue Women have faced ever since they came on the factory floor. In this day and age it should not happen. However the responsibility for that is on the mothers of the guys doing the catcalls who did not teach their sons to respect women. The company's job is to build cars not fix society's problems.

    --
    **Life is too short to be serious**
    1. Re:Underpaid can afford Model S? by nobuddy · · Score: 1

      I believe tesla workers get amazing discounts on the cars. Kind of a Henry Ford tactic- the more of them that drive them the more the cars are seen on the roads.

    2. Re:Underpaid can afford Model S? by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      However the responsibility for that is on the mothers of the guys doing the catcalls who did not teach their sons to respect women.

      Yeah screw personal responsibility: when a man does something wrong it's still a woman's fault really.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    3. Re:Underpaid can afford Model S? by ghoul · · Score: 1

      A child is not born with bad manners. Its taught by its parents and it learns from its mother. Way to go claiming discrimination again. BTW women have always run the world because they have controlled child rearing and hence the mindset of the next generation. Feminism is probably the worst thing that happened to women as they had to give up time spent with their kids to go out and earn money. This reduces their control on society.

      --
      **Life is too short to be serious**
    4. Re:Underpaid can afford Model S? by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      A child is not born with bad manners.

      Have you met children, like ever?

      Its taught by its parents and it learns from its mother.

      They learn from a lot. Parents are a huge influence, society is a big influence and there's a fair amount innately too.

      Way to go claiming discrimination again.

      Way to go inventing claims of discrimination. You're really thin skinned and quick to take offence.

      BTW women have always run the world

      Except not they haven't.

      because they have controlled child rearing and hence the mindset of the next generation.

      That's totally how it works. #truestory

      Feminism is probably the worst thing that happened to women as they had to give up time spent with their kids to go out and earn money.

      What kids? Not every woman wants to have kids.

      This reduces their control on society.

      OK, I have to know, is this Poe's law and did I miss the massive woosh?

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
  31. We need to sue all employers by roman_mir · · Score: 0

    I think all employers should be sued for hiring and for firing people as well as for not hiring women or not hiring men, for firing women or for firing men, for hiring / firing that goes against feelings of some, for hiring / firing that goes alone the lines of feelings of some...

    Employers in the USA must be really masochistic to continue hiring people, anybody at all, not even just women. Of-course to hire a woman or any other protected class for that matter you have to really have your head checked. Of-course if you do not hire them in some quantity, the government will attack you on that basis.

    So you have to hire them and then you have to bear the blunt of the lawsuit your choices are very unpleasant. Hire the women and get a lawsuit. Don't hire the women and get a lawsuit.

    That type of a choice is not a choice at all, I give you the third option: don't hire in the USA.

    1. Re:We need to sue all employers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's why all jobs will be replaced with robots. Thanks Social Justice Evangelists, and thanks Obama.

    2. Re:We need to sue all employers by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      a woman or any other protected class

      Gender/sex is a protected class, not femaleness. Unless you're claiming men have no gender then they're as much as a protected class as women. The law specifies that discrimination based on a protected class is illegal. It does not specify any special attributes within that class.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    3. Re:We need to sue all employers by Demena · · Score: 1

      But that is a problem isn't it? Men are no longer permitted to have a gender in public? And a private space where they can vent, well that is just misogynist?

    4. Re:We need to sue all employers by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      But that is a problem isn't it?

      No.

      Men are no longer permitted to have a gender in public?

      Utterly false. There are quite a number of people who call themselves men's right's activists who seem convinced that man==arsehole so being against arseholes is being against men. I don't believe men are inherently bad, so I don't subscribe to that definition.

      And a private space where they can vent, well that is just misogynist?

      If you're being a misogynist in private, you're still a misyognist.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    5. Re:We need to sue all employers by Demena · · Score: 1

      But that is a problem isn't it?

      No.

      Men are no longer permitted to have a gender in public?

      Utterly false. There are quite a number of people who call themselves men's right's activists who seem convinced that man==arsehole so being against arseholes is being against men. I don't believe men are inherently bad, so I don't subscribe to that definition.

      And a private space where they can vent, well that is just misogynist?

      If you're being a misogynist in private, you're still a misyognist.

      You keep your misandry to yourself. You are proving my point. You "don't believe men are inherently bad" but they require re-education don't they?

      Women must have safe spaces where they can vent. Maybe they should modify their feelings instead just as you seem to require men to do?

      When women look at men's rights activists and say they are arseholes (who consider themselves to be assholes) they might consider that many men might have the same view of feminists for the same reason. You are a bigot. You are a feminist. You are a disrespecter of men. That is established by the "men's right's activists who seem convinced that man==arsehole". You are against any man who does not comply with your wishes and views. You are not an equalitarian."

    6. Re:We need to sue all employers by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      You keep your misandry to yourself.

      Oh I see, your tacic is to invent claims of misandry. Well, sure if you invent any facts you like, you can "win" any argument.

      You "don't believe men are inherently bad" but they require re-education don't they?

      Again, if you invent opinions that I have, you can "win" any argument.

      Women must have safe spaces where they can vent.

      They do? The most famous call for safe spaces was for republican politicians, not women.

      Maybe they should modify their feelings instead just as you seem to require men to do?

      I do?

      You are against any man who does not comply with your wishes and views

      No, I'm against men (and women as it happens) who are arseholes, but that apparently makes a misandrist. Well, okey dokey.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    7. Re:We need to sue all employers by Demena · · Score: 1

      No, what makes you a misandrist is the words that you used and the attitudes expressed. I do not do straw men.

      You can be as supercilious as you wish but it gives you no credit. You are too young to be aware of many facts it seems. The 'safe spaces' for women goes back as far as the 'sixties. And I agree with it. But I do not agree with the same safe spaces being removed from men. Everyone needs a place where they can talk freely and do not need to constantly monitor their tongue. Even misandrists and misogynists.

    8. Re:We need to sue all employers by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      No, what makes you a misandrist is the words that you used and the attitudes expressed. I do not do straw men.

      You can claim to not make straw man all you like, that doesn't make it true. You can also make whatever claims of misandry you like: likewise that doesn't make it true.

      Everyone needs a place where they can talk freely and do not need to constantly monitor their tongue.

      That's a blessing and a curse. It allows people to be who they want, but the trouble is that some people want to be actually literally nazis and see the death of large numbers of people. Social pressure and the implied threat of losing your friends and being disinherited by your family is what keeps a lot of people in line. It's a powerful force which means it can work for good or ill. People are very malleable and reinforcement of bad attitudes causes them to build and reinforces them. Likewise it doesn't do anyone any good to have no one to challenge their bullshit.

      Even misandrists and misogynists.

      If you think everyone needs a space where they can stew in their own toxic attitudes becoming ever more bitter and foolish, then I question your definition of "need".

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
  32. Everyone on board the Shame Train! by SuperKendall · · Score: 0

    I am pretty sure we'll see more and more revelations like this from companies all over... in part because what was never really addressed was that Uber was not really distinctive. Any large company can have issues with employees harassing others. And in any large company people are loathe to deal with problems, preferring instead to sweep them under the rug...

    One side effect of all of these revelations is probably going to be a solution to these problems that few people will enjoy - fewer women will be hired, because it appears now that any women you hire presents you with a lot of legal exposure. It would be far cheaper to deal with suits from women who sued because they were not hired than suits from women who were hired and harassed.

    One last interesting observation - I note the response to Tesla being the target is notably more muted than Uber being the target. Uber has long been a target of the SJW crowd, for whatever reason - I was never quite sure why that was actually. But Tesla of course is the darling of the leftist brigades, and we can see the result from the comments here and elsewhere where Tesla actually gets the benefit of the doubt in a way Uber never will.

    And THAT is the real shame.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  33. aww poor little flower by JustNiz · · Score: 0

    >> It was common for her to be the only woman in meetings with 40 to 50 men

    Aww poor little flower. Tesla should provide a safe space that female employees can run to at any time.

    >> Tesla also denied her overtime pay, rest breaks and meal periods

    Welcome to everyday life that any Software Engineer will already be intimately familiar with, because in most companies, people in management frequently agree to drop-dead deadlines without even thinking to check with engineers to see if its actually even possible.

    1. Re:aww poor little flower by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Technically, that's illegal.

      it doesn't matter if it's customary.

      And in a lawsuit, illegal actions are ... (wait for it) ... illegal.

      News flash: you're no longer in a frat at Stanford.

      --
      -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
    2. Re:aww poor little flower by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Something of an aside question, but...

      Why is it that so many people who have suffered some sort of injustice/indignity, seem intent on inflicting the same pain on others instead of working to make sure no one else has to go through what you did? People who grow up poor, for example, seem to enjoy watching others suffer with poverty rather than so much as lifting a finger to help those people. Yet at the same time, these same people love to bemoan the various hardships they've suffered and expect sympathy from people for it.

      Maybe you can help explain this dichotomy to me, since you strike me as the sort of person who is representative of the type of person I describe.

    3. Re:aww poor little flower by JustNiz · · Score: 1

      Try not posting as AC.

    4. Re:aww poor little flower by JustNiz · · Score: 1

      What? her being the only female in a meeting room with 50 guys is illegal? Please cite references.

    5. Re:aww poor little flower by Demena · · Score: 1

      Seconded

  34. nope! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    thanks for demonstrating the sort of people that are the problem, however.

  35. This whole summary is misleading... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    This whole summary is misleading.

    • She's not a engineer, she worked on the assembly line.
    • She's upset that men were promoted to certain positions when she wasn't. She said she was the only woman working on the assembly line, so logic would dictate that if 99.9% of the people working with her were men, chances are pretty good someone will get promoted to a position you wanted.
    • She leaked information to the media, so is she really surprised the company doesn't want to promote her when she goes around doing that. My work places had a NDA I had to sign, I'm surprised she wasn't required to sign one.
    • The sexual harassment claim was all summed up to one event where some men were up on a platform and whistled and "cat called" when her and another lady walked by. While the action is inappropriate, I can't see it meriting a law suit.
    • She transferred from the assembly line to sales.

    From the little information that is provided as proof of her claims, sounds more like a employee upset about not getting promotions and trying to get money out of the well known company.

    1. Re:This whole summary is misleading... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Post tagged as "Troll" really? Since when do trolls just state the facts from the article?

    2. Re:This whole summary is misleading... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Anyone who thinks this is a troll post clearly didn't read the article.

  36. Re:Apps for harrassment? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...and want ungodly thoughts banned.

    FTFY

  37. I am a bit skeptical... by nobuddy · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Note: I am pro union, and think Tesla workers are making a mistake by rejecting UAW. I also disagree with the UAWs tactics in regards to Tesla.

    The UAW has been sending workers in to Tesla to incite problems and try to rally workers to unionize. Her claim may be valid, but needs thorough investigation to verify. It is entirely possible she is either a plant, or paid off by the union to make a rallying point.
    By all other records Tesla pays exceedingly well, has stellar benefits, and treats workers well. Tons of overtime requirements- but that is normal in the auto industry, and Tesla pays generous overtime rates. The workers are not interested in a union because they don't need one and as such don't want the fees. This may bite them in the ass later, but for now their wishes should be honored by the union.

    1. Re:I am a bit skeptical... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "The UAW has been sending workers in to Tesla to incite problems"

      Citation needed. And an accusation by Elon Musk really doesn't cut it. Companiew a barred from asking about union affiliation so it would take extraordinary evidence to support such a claim.

  38. Re:Apps for harrassment? by FatdogHaiku · · Score: 1

    Tesla cows don't make any moo. they are completely silent, you only hear their hooves.

    added bonus, their farts are released in another location...
    OK, so it's only a bonus if you don't live in said location...

    --
    You have the right to remain sentient. If you give up the right to remain sentient, you will be elected to public office
  39. Re:This by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And this is how you perpetuate the problem.

    The fact that most men cannot work a full day without making a sexually-related joke or innuendo is damn annoying. And I say this as a currently single man. I hate machist company cultures. Please grow up. You're not a pair of sentient balls attached to a body.

  40. Re:Apps for harrassment? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    oh bullshit... that's one of those stories everyone tells and none are true.

  41. Not an engineer. Maybe a snowflake? by bradley13 · · Score: 1, Troll

    Four things, let's see

    - Ignoring her complaints of “pervasive harassment”.

    The article has specifics later: "harassment by men on the factory floor including but not limited to inappropriate language, whistling, and catcalls".

    Not nice, but not wholly unexpected either. It's a factory floor, and all of her earlier positions were office jobs. The factory floor is not a place for special snowflakes - male or female.

    - Paying her a lower salary than men doing the same work.

    Not all people with the same job earn the same. Salary depends on various factors. It may depend on how good they are at the job. It may depend on whether they ask for a raise. It may depend on other factors, for example, on whether one is *actually* an engineer. She transferred in from sales and out to purchasing.. Her education isn't public, but with that work history, there is zero chance that she holds an engineering degree.

    - Promoting less qualified men over her

    Um, "qualified"? She lack an education to hold the position of Manufacturing Engineer, although Tesla normally demands that for their manufacturing engineers. She certainly has none of the work experience you would expect. Even then, a promotion depends on how well you do your job, how well you get along with your co-workers, and - most importantly - how well suited you are for the new responsibilities that the promotion would entail.

    - Retaliating against her for raising concerns.

    The bit of research above tends to point to Tesla trying too hard: they took a non-engineer and put her into a technical position that she was unqualified for. She failed, was moved to purchasing, and is now insulted. At least, that's sure what it looks like based on public information.

    --
    Enjoy life! This is not a dress rehearsal.
    1. Re:Not an engineer. Maybe a snowflake? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      - Ignoring her complaints of “pervasive harassment”.

      The article has specifics later: "harassment by men on the factory floor including but not limited to inappropriate language, whistling, and catcalls".

      Not nice, but not wholly unexpected either.

      This should be wholly unexpected and anyone fighting against this sort of culture should be given the benefit of the doubt. It is a travesty that this is considered "fine" in this day and age and I'll applaud anyone who bucks this trend.

    2. Re:Not an engineer. Maybe a snowflake? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Noting that both males and females are harassed is not a defense against sexual harassment; you don't have to be female to be sexually harassed. Plus we expect (and require by law) that workplaces be free of harassment *in general*, not just in the case of sexual harassment, so if your factory floor harasses people of any gender for any reason it's another problem, not an excuse.

      It's *not* unreasonable for people to expect to go to work and not be harassed. It's the law. Attitudes like the one you express here are not only anti-social, they're actionable, and the only "snowflakes" in the process are the ones you can't control themselves well enough to act civilly for the few hours a day they are at work.

    3. Re:Not an engineer. Maybe a snowflake? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hear hear!

    4. Re:Not an engineer. Maybe a snowflake? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Noting that both males and females are harassed is not a defense against sexual harassment; you don't have to be female to be sexually harassed. Plus we expect (and require by law) that workplaces be free of harassment *in general*, not just in the case of sexual harassment, so if your factory floor harasses people of any gender for any reason it's another problem, not an excuse.

      It's *not* unreasonable for people to expect to go to work and not be harassed. It's the law. Attitudes like the one you express here are not only anti-social, they're actionable, and the only "snowflakes" in the process are the ones you can't control themselves well enough to act civilly for the few hours a day they are at work.

      One AC responding to another - not everybody is motivated by "the law". There are plenty of examples where "the law" makes limited sense and is ignored - see how many people drive and exceed the posted speed limit on a daily basis. And historically - see the entire Prohibition period in the US. The issue is one of culture not law. That being said, I agree with your points that culture needs to be fixed not to allow this ANYWHERE in the workplace.

    5. Re:Not an engineer. Maybe a snowflake? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Aaaaand the white knight makes their appearance.

    6. Re:Not an engineer. Maybe a snowflake? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But it is a defense against special snowflakes.

  42. Re:this one didn't get the memo by nomadic · · Score: 1

    "Tech workers . . . have a natural understanding about women"

    Hahahaaa zing! Wait a minute...were you serious with that? But...wow.

  43. Re:Maybe she was just too dumb to negotiate better by geekpowa · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Employment negotiation is a complex dynamic.

    My first and only blue chip job, I was fairly junior just a few years into career yet I firmly established as able to deliver and innovate and provide tech that opened up alot of new rev for them, but always been rubbish at asserting and negotiation. Some freshly minted grads came in, barely could compile a hello world, and I found out they started on 20% more than me. Was so angry about it and acted out of character driven by the emotion of indignation. Kicked up about it, threatened to quit, quit and then shortly later sub contracted back to them at a ruthlessly high rate and tripled my income : arrangement didn't last long but I got my pound of flesh. That and other experiences since, when I eventually moved into management roles, hiring and managing staff etc, have helped me realise it is complex. You can't just tell someone find another job or be more assertive or whatever, it's not easy flicking a switch and becoming a different person: pretending to be an alpha when you are far from that. Fears and insecurities that come into play the power dynamic is heavily against the employee.

  44. This is why we can't have nice things by sproketboy · · Score: 0

    Hiring Marxist feminists with Gender Studies minors.

  45. Judging from the culture here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Judging from the overwhelming reaction from the man children here, she deserves treble damages.

  46. Only the really young women don't. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's when they're getting older and are worried about losing their looks that they want catcalls (well, not so much that, but appreciation vocalised).

  47. The Reason For Elon's Moon Shot Is Now Clear by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Smoke and mirrors publicity to hid the ugly truths at Tesla.

    After all, Elon is a born and bred Apartheid Afrikoner who is living illegally in the U.S. (no citizenship).

  48. Paid Less? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Everyone with Tesla stock should take their money out of the company immediately. Apparently there's a discount on work for hiring females, yet Tesla still hires men. Tesla won't last long once other companies learn of this competitive advantage!!!

  49. Here we go again by holophrastic · · Score: 1

    another woman complaining about a bad company at which she's chosen to remain. Yes, HR will always protect the company, that's why the company pays for an HR department. If you don't like what's going on, and if you don't like how you're treated, and if you don't like the amount that you're being paid, then you get to do the one thing that every man gets to do -- you get to threaten to quit. That's called negotiating to get what you want. And most of the time, you get to leave. That's exactly what it takes to get what you want.

    You don't get to complain, in this case, three years later!

    My company isn't like that. My industry isn't like that. Yet, you've stayed in a company that has mistreated you from the start.

    Start your own company. That's what I did when I wasn't happy.

    1. Re:Here we go again by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      So, if a company is doing illegal things to its workers, the workers should just quit instead of expecting employment law to be enforced?

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    2. Re:Here we go again by holophrastic · · Score: 1

      one complaint, maybe two. not two years. you can leave, and then sue. you don't need to work there for three years, take the money, and then complain.

      also, if everyone leaves, isn't that the worst thing that can happen to the company? and if it's just you, and no one else is upset, then let the baby have it's bottle. you're just not a good fit for the group, for whatever reason.

      who ever guaranteed that you'd get a job, and that it would be there, forever?

      but really, i don't care who you are. if you don't like the way that others treat you, then stop working for other people. people suck, all people. you either find the people who suck the way that you like your sucking, or you start your own company and suck however you damned well please.

    3. Re:Here we go again by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Lawsuits are not to be entered into lightly. They're expensive, uncertain, and slow. While they're sucking the plaintiff's money, time, and energy, the plaintiff still has to pay rent and eat.

      Nobody guaranteed me a job, just as nobody guaranteed there'd be Mountain Dew in the vending machine. However, if I get a can of Dew from the vending machine, there are laws in place to make sure it's really Dew and not something even worse for me. Nobody guaranteed me a car, but I have legal assurance that it will be free of serious manufacturer's defects or the manufacturer or dealer will fix it. I see no point in offering jobs or anything else that are intentionally illegal in a market, except for markets that deal with illegal things (drugs, for example).

      Not everyone is cut out to run their own company. It's a good way out for some people, not everyone.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    4. Re:Here we go again by holophrastic · · Score: 1

      "except for markets that deal with illegal things"

      you mean like consumer cars being used as commercial vehicles, full time drivers considered contractors, and cars sold direct to the consumers.

  50. Re:How do you even find out what your colleagues m by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

    Most people buy exactly as much house as they can afford (morons that they are).

    Closing price is public information. For first homes, you can more or less back calculate the family income from house price. Have to know if they are veterans and a few other things, but it's pretty direct.

    It is useful information for extorting more money from the big cheeses. For example: If you know you are making less money than the moron who's mistakes you are always fixing, you know they can afford to increase your pay a lot. If you know everybody at the place is paid for shit, you know it's time to move.

    --
    John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
  51. Now you know why no one wants to hire a by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Bitch.

  52. popcorn for the fucktards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Queue slashdot idiots complaining about "not all men" and "she's probably lying"

  53. Wolf-crying? by lucaiaco · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I have been working in the US for several years, and I have noticed this dangerous trend of constantly labeling as misogynist or racist behavior anything that targets a woman or a minority for things that have nothing to do with race or gender. As an outsider (I am from Europe, and worked in Asia), I can say that nowhere I have seen such an obsession with these two topics. If a white person sucks, and get fired, you talk about the actual causes of the firing. If it's a woman or a minority doesn't get hired, or get fired, it's often sexism and racism. I am sure there are real cases of racism and maybe even sexism, but this constant and indiscriminate wolf-crying is going to delegitimize real victims and actually make people hire fewer of these people.

    If I were to hire in this country, I'd be damn sure not to hire a woman or a minority which had a background in social justice (even a blog post or some classes in college would be a no go). There is just a chance that the person is some sort of fanatic. It sounds awful, but from what I can tell that equates to having a ticking bomb ready to explode under my ass. I don't care what your race or your ethnicity is, if shit hits the fan bad things may happen, and the last thing I would want is to have a lawsuit for discrimination and a wave of bad publicity for my business. Aww, yes, I am a such an awful person. Well, sorry, and welcome to the real world.

    1. Re:Wolf-crying? by ebvwfbw · · Score: 1

      I had one working for me, a black woman. It was no fun at all. I think being stung by a bullet ant every day would be a good alternative to dealing with her. I had to find something for her to do. Eventually we had 5 managers in a room trying to find something for this dumbass to do. She couldn't even search for a string in an excel doc. Even with written instructions. She was also very abrasive.

      The way I got rid of her was to eliminate the position. It was actually better for me to fire her that way because I had a net gain of like 5 people. Sucks I lost the position. It's been years and I finally got two more people.

      Do criminal background checks, check out as much as you can about them. Lot of dumbasses out there.

  54. Women's privilege by Sqreater · · Score: 3, Informative

    This seems just another case of a women who has had a lifetime of women's privilege deference and accommodation running into the hard truths of equality in a tough work environment. The courts will probably force the feminization of the work environment--women's privilege at work once again. The result, of course, will be the destruction eventually of an aggressively creative and forward pushing company.

    --
    E Proelio Veritas.
    1. Re:Women's privilege by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Are you saying that sexual harassment is somehow required to be a creative, forward pushing company?

      My company is leading the industry. We do stuff no one else can. And we don't have a culture where sexual harassment takes place or is acceptable.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    2. Re:Women's privilege by djinn6 · · Score: 1

      Are you saying that sexual harassment is somehow required to be a creative, forward pushing company?

      He is not saying that. Read this again:

      This seems just another case of a women who has had a lifetime of women's privilege deference and accommodation running into the hard truths of equality in a tough work environment.

      He is referring to her complaint that she was being passed over for a promotion, implying she wasn't good enough in a fair competition against her male peers. Stop constructing strawmans just to reinforce your SJW world view.

    3. Re:Women's privilege by Demena · · Score: 1

      My company is leading the industry. We do stuff no one else can.

      Been there, done that. It was bullshit then and I call bullshit now. Very few people who think they are irreplaceable actually are that way.

  55. There is that lovely "Women are wonderful" effect by Kartu · · Score: 3, Interesting
  56. The Same Men Can't Understand Why Trump Won by RobotRunAmok · · Score: 1

    Media kept running headlines like, "Trump Says He Was a Pussy Grabber!!!" and women in the Hearltand responded, "Yes? And...?" There is a huge cultural divide here in this country, same as between Montreal and Quebec, but the media has been willfully ignorant about it until very recently.

    1. Re: The Same Men Can't Understand Why Trump Won by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because he exaggerates a lot and self-aggrandizes, it's not true he acts this way unless proven in court (or by a leaked video). The accusers strangely quickly evaporated. If there was proof, he wouldn't have been elected. On the other hand, the leaked emails were the real thing and exposed the DNC is corrupted to the core. That Hilary got any vote at all is truly scandalous.

    2. Re: The Same Men Can't Understand Why Trump Won by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Leaked E! audio tapes are not good enough, need to be video.
      When there's a video leak, will you say it's not analog and faked?

  57. I hope this doesn't hurt my chance at promotion by bobm · · Score: 5, Insightful

    from the article:

    She is hopeful her lawsuit and public comments wonâ(TM)t end her career at a company she loves.

    Would a sane person really think that suing the company they work for won't impact their future with the company?

  58. UGLY. by jondeanmack · · Score: 0

    Not only do I bet she is ugly, I know she is ugly!

  59. Re:There is that lovely "Women are wonderful" effe by lucaiaco · · Score: 1

    Good one. I didn't know about it.

  60. I hope she loses by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    this is a bullshit claim.. it reeks of it. She just couldn't handle her job.

  61. Re:This by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Whoa there buddy.

    It's Tesla, not Lockheed. They're not even going to hit Mach 0.4 much less Mach 1. Don't include those kiddy gear-heads into the machist lifestyle. GottaGofast.

  62. too much competition among colleagues by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This will probably be labeled as racist but the reality is that when you import people from cultures where sexism is the norm, your own culture will also become more and more sexist. When the main reason for immigration is to import workers you also introduce an extra work culture of competition.
     
    When you are born as an American and had a happy life and worked hard to get good grades, you didn't have experienced the hard live of someone who was born in a poor family in some poor country.

    That person might have had to work 3 times as hard as you. He may have had to do everything in is power including lying, cheating, bribing to emigrate to the US to get a job. A job that paid his countries average yearly wage every week. A dream for that guy even when that average wage is very low to American standards. As an American you all of the sudden have to compete with someone who might even be better at your job then you, but who earns less than you because maybe he risks to lose his job when he complains. That person might start to work even harder. He has time to work harder because his social life is gone now he is so far away from his family and friend. You as an American might still want to keep in touch with your family and friends. Maybe you want to have a western, feminist wife who wants her husband to be there.
     
    The American might become frustrated because he has to compete with someone who works harder for less money. He doesn't have to take care for his wife. In his culture he owns the wife, and the wife should always be ready for the man. The foreigner however might be frustrated with the spoiled American who maybe earns more, didn't work as hard to get there and wants to spend quality time with the family as if he considers is wife as someone equal to him.
     
    This can create tensions which you can not talk about because they are cultural differences which have become a taboo. So superficially everything seems friendly and brotherly, but underneath the thick skin people might hate each other. And from time to time, when frustration takes the overhand sexist and racist harassment might boil up. Of course when you work very long hours, and the boss wants you to work more, more, more. And you are in a fierce competition with the colleague you kind of despise, while in your personal life you hate it that you have to give up all your personal dreams. Yes at that time things can start to become ugly. But hey when you complain you're no longer the team player.

    And then there are the companies who just import the majority of their engineers from cultures were sexism as a word doesn't exist because women are no more then livestock. They don't even know that when they talk to women like they used to that they are being sexist. Other people copy that habit and before you know it all man act like sexists, and the entire culture in the company has become sexist. This has ironically happened with state jobs in my country. They gave the good example in the past by hiring 50/50 male/women. This was never really a problem. But they also start to give the good example by hiring 50/50 non immigrants/immigrants. This gives a lot of problem with sexism. But of course the reason is not the many immigrants at the work floor, but the 'white man' is the cause of all evil. This causes even more tensions because so many honest and friendly men are accused of being sexist while their dark tinted sexist colleague is considered not guilty. This turns even the most tolerant and friendly man in a racist because criticizing the situation has become racist.

  63. Hmm by Ryanrule · · Score: 1

    Seems being indian is common on both sides of these problems.

    1. Re:Hmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or the statistics are that any situation involving multiple tech workers is very likely to have at least one Indian. This is why Indians are better at math than you.

    2. Re:Hmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Indeed, when I worked at HSBC they would bring in a few hundred Indian "engineers" to do various bottom-rung coding work. Most of the HR and admin staff refused to go anywhere near the side of the building/floor that all of the Indians were corralled in. Only an old battle-ax of a woman that worked as an executive admin was willing to deal with them, and even she didn't like them. Terrible hygiene, no manners, infested with teetsy flies, and zero social skills.

  64. Re:Apps for harrassment? by Dread_ed · · Score: 1

    You may want to have a neurologist check your proprioception. What you report makes it seem like you are unusually susceptible to loss of body awareness.

    --
    When the only tool you have is a claw hammer every problem starts to look like the back of someone's skull.
  65. Funny by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    For once I believe in the cause and not the company. Tesla isn't doing anything great to my, eye, I'd move on if I were her. If Tesla ceased to exist tomorrow, hardly anyone would notice.

  66. Re:Apps for harrassment? by Hylandr · · Score: 1

    Falling over is one thing, watching someone mash their brake harder while sitting in a stationary vehicle with their hands on a steering wheel is quite another. One causes pain and possibly injury, the other is a harmless prank where a person's perception is played with for a moment.

    --
    ~ People that think they are better than anyone else for any reason are the cause of all the strife in the world.
  67. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  68. English 101 pretended failure by dbIII · · Score: 1

    Really honestly why is fuck worse ...

    Context - obviously.

    Why is pretending to be stupid to push a flawed argument such a thing now? You guys are not brain damaged former DJ's coping with the aftermath of years of cocaine addiction with your rants televised for entertainment. Sorry to pick on you rtb61 when you are just following a trend, but it's pointless, self-demeaning and not even funny.

  69. Not unlikely by dbIII · · Score: 1

    A few months ago there was a story about her making the rounds on how she'd moved from studying math at a 6th-grade level to doing graduate-level quantum mechanics in just 18 months

    It's nowhere near unique so not unlikely. To sum up, high school mathematics is generally shit so someone who work hard can get through it in a couple of months and then get through a couple of years of undergraduate mathematics in a year if they have a tight focus. I've seen a few students do that when transitioning from a trade to an engineering degree.

  70. Typo by dbIII · · Score: 1

    It should be "someone who works hard", and puts a strong focus on science/maths/engineering instead of, as I have unfortunately shown, English.

  71. If women really were paid less than men... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... then no company would hire men at all, because they would be able to get the same work done, for less pay, by hiring only women...

    Since we never see this happening, we know that the 'gender wage gap' is a LIE.

  72. Re:this one didn't get the memo by micahraleigh · · Score: 1

    You picked up on it. Tech workers don't understand women because they don't understand what it means to be a person.

    Their attitude leans toward, "But I can make apps and fine tune databases so I'm a demi god and can treat humans as the Olympians did."

    I'd like to think that as a tech worker I've gotten around this by staying grounded, but it's open to interpretation (of course).

    There's a saying, "Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up."

  73. Re:Maybe she was just too dumb to negotiate better by ebvwfbw · · Score: 1

    She probably found out she didn't negotiate as well as the men did. This is classic, and she can't even sue because she agreed to it. She should STFU and do her job. She can do something about it next year.

  74. Equal pay... by torkus · · Score: 1

    ...all things being equal.

    Now, that also includes the salary you ask for, negotiate, and get. 10 people doing the same job with the same tenure and performance evaluations are still going ot have 10 different salaries ... sometimes vastly different.

    If i'm a hiring manager and someone will take $50k even though I have $60k budgeted because it's typical for the position ... I'm going to pay them $50k. That's not discrimination, that's poor negotiation on the employees' part. Then you get promoted a few times which involve % increases...and suddenly you realize you're making 10% less than your peers who got promoted because you were all along because that's the $ you accepted.

    While anecdotal, in my 18 years of corporate america I've found that people who aggressively ask for and pursue more $ typically get it. Gender is rarely, if ever, relevant at all.

    --
    You can get rich if you own a politician, but you have to be rich to buy one in the first place.
  75. Re:Apps for harrassment? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Rationalize away, but we know what's in your heart. But that's ok. Look at this as an opportunity for personal reflection and growth.

  76. Re:There is that lovely "Women are wonderful" effe by Demena · · Score: 1

    Oh, really? Why would that be?

    There are varied uniquely male privileges to be obtained.
    There are varied uniquely female privileges to be obtained.
    There are privileges that come with decency. I won't say human decency as I have known animals to have that decency and it should be reciprocated.

    Very, very few obtain more than a small fraction of the privilege they could obtain.

    Very often the members of a given group do not recognise their own privileges as they seem natural within that group. That makes the grass look even greener on the other side of the fence.

    There is privilege everywhere. It is hard not to see it. It is best to try and be objective.

  77. Re:This by Demena · · Score: 1

    That would also be pretty well impossible for any woman I have ever known unless she was the only woman present and maybe not then. If you think that testicles or ovaries do not affect sentience then you go against a massive field of evidence and the bulk of the psychiatry and psychological world.

    In case you did not know it, men in majority female workplaces cop a lot too. With far less recourse.

  78. Slashdot fails again by kuzb · · Score: 1
    As usual, Slashdot fails to see the entire picture: This is a woman who joined as a salesman and even though she had no education was promoted to engineering positions in only 4 years on the job. That sure sounds discriminatory!

    When contacted, Tesla provided the following statement to TechCrunch regarding the new statements made by Vandermeyden to the Guardian:

    Tesla is committed to creating a positive workplace environment that is free of discrimination for all our employees. Ms. Vandermeyden joined Tesla in a sales position in 2013, and since then, despite having no formal engineering degree, she has sought and moved into successive engineering roles, beginning with her work in Tesla’s paint shop and eventually another role in General Assembly. Even after she made her complaints of alleged discrimination, she sought and was advanced into at least one other new role, evidence of the fact that Tesla is committed to rewarding hard work and talent, regardless of background. When Ms. Vandermeyden first brought her concerns to us over a year ago, we immediately retained a neutral third party, Anne Hilbert of EMC2Law, to investigate her claims so that, if warranted, we could take appropriate action to address the issues she raised. After an exhaustive review of the facts, the independent investigator determined that Ms. Vandermeyden’s “claims of gender discrimination, harassment, and retaliation have not been substantiated.” Without this context, the story presented in the original article is misleading.

    --
    BeauHD. Worst editor since kdawson.
  79. It is her fault if she is paid less by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Learn to negotiate and don't cry if you negotiated a lower salary for yourself.